"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ee6bf62af3f484c95e56be2974cdb4a\u0022\u003EThursday, 20 February 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225030b8f9e0c9442581ac4a847077fed1\u0022\u003EThursday, 20 February 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002286a62c2ed7f44d28b0913834d29e6eab\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220c0e8c26d9f6463da4bed6ca4227e9a5\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002267fb4a817dbc4234af1f5be5191e91ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267fb4a817dbc4234af1f5be5191e91ff\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Leader of the House. Next week in the House it is the Government\u2019s intention to make progress on the first reading of the Holidays Bill, the remaining stages of the Television New Zealand Bill, and the Government Superannuation Fund Amendment Bill (No 2), and the second reading of the Taxation (Annual Rates, Maori Organisations, Taxpayer Compliance and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221e270ab7e7374b8d8df7739ed4c2c924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e270ab7e7374b8d8df7739ed4c2c924\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Noting that the Government saw fit to hold a press conference late last week advertising changes to the Resource Management Act that would allow numerous projects of national interest to progress under a different regime, can the Leader of the House give us some indication of when that legislation may get to the House, so that it becomes a reality rather than just a vague hope for the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00228c32d233a1e344638a76aa0d321081ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c32d233a1e344638a76aa0d321081ee\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I cannot at this point, but I will inform the member as soon as I am able.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e550e041917e4a85a3b65df61a7d4d6f\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299dc142721ba41ac880ebe1bf35981d1\u0022\u003ESittings of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb5ceeb95644b89ac82bb49031539bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb5ceeb95644b89ac82bb49031539bc\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Leader of the House: I seek leave for the House at its rising on Wednesday, 26 February to adjourn until the ringing of the bell on Thursday, 27 February. This is to allow for the luncheon for the European Parliament delegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a557259f13a4a548bcebd245992a756\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f619de9e62ae4b3683c1d87a06350b44\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e6152dcdbab4c0fb00ac5abdbd2dbf9\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002207866dc1d63142ef89ee2d98404bea7f\u0022\u003ERoad Toll\u2014Reports\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8314379e6c54d3baff1bed948436a8c\u0022\u003E1. LUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (NZ Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What reports has he received on the road toll for 2002?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00223ff49077e67843c3be3963be38f7f397\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ff49077e67843c3be3963be38f7f397\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The Land Transport Safety Authority has advised that last year\u2019s road toll of 404 was the lowest in 40 years. This is despite the large increase in vehicle numbers over that time. The mixture of education, enforcement, and engineering measures introduced are paying off. However, we must continue to make progress if we are to reach the goal of no more than 300 fatalities by 2010.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9de9f1cba34ca69541c53a6305bcbd\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: What other reports has he seen on road safety issues?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254b6cd212a9545299dc3ac9ea921db66\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a report from Mr Roger Sowry saying that National would build a multilane highway between Auckland and Wellington to reduce traffic problems. This is estimated to cost $5.5 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a05bed6407749d1887a07f4347b7d3d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister has no responsibility for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea57127ce2754ea38f5f6605f6c39482\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree with Land Transport Safety Authority director David Wright that the greatest scope for future reductions in the road toll lies in engineering work, such as providing more passing lanes, removing power poles, and designing safer new roads and intersections; if so, does he then agree that the greatest impediment to carrying out that work is his inability to obtain the funding necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e0339ee01794e0086e17cd2c7c7c8bb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Just for that member\u2019s information, in the last year that he was in the Government, funding was $563 million\u2014compared with $603 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022becf97768b4a4a53ab6d563dd8735036\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Again, the Minister was referring to something for which he has no responsibility. He should answer the question, rather than allude to stuff that has happened in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ebbaf9295a470fac9c6e4d978dc50c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, on this occasion, the Minister was perfectly in order. He was comparing figures, and he is perfectly entitled to do that. I thought the Minister had finished his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221444731b8f064c91b4c204ee113c5fa6\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8cd0c8301c646bd95bb4e99e7a4f689\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I accept your point with regard to the figures, but the question was whether he agreed with the statements. The Minister was showing no indication of even getting to that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5f00073c50344fca2904f9d6ef6a064\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister had given only one sentence. He wants to continue, and I will hear him out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e5d9ceba8234ff580b383513bd7e999\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The Land Transport Safety Authority director has made a number of good and useful comments. Of course engineering is important, and it will require funding. The Government does not agree with spending $5.5 billion on a superhighway between Auckland and Wellington. It would mean that no more projects would be funded for 20 years. Plus they want to cut petrol taxes by 4c! The ghost of Bill Birch and \u201Cthink big\u201D is alive and well in the National Party caucus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022348d745e28d24d54bf246d00e16cab4c\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. At the beginning of this year\u2019s parliamentary session, I think we should clear up whether you intend to interrupt Ministers, or whether you want the Opposition to interrupt them through points of order. We are happy to do that, but where a Minister is clearly breaching the rules, we would also be more than happy if you as Speaker would take the initiative to sit the Minister down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220615b63ccedf4c168302362cbb2cfca2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his very valuable advice. I shall interrupt when I consider it necessary to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022838e50e4a47f4146a60074e2d707d6d7\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If the fatality and accident rates on the roads continue to go down, can we expect the Minister to make strong recommendations to his colleagues to reduce the accident compensation charges on motorists, instead of continually increasing them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205a5438478484be7962d5352e6ed14aa\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. The perverse problem we have at the moment is that fatalities are going down, but as cars and road engineering become safer, the number of injuries rises. That is the reason that accident compensation levies have had to increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022195e6988bb30410f92c688e4005b72a1\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: My question for the Minister follows on from that question. Was the startling reduction in motor vehicle deaths and injuries passed on to the Minister for ACC and other relevant Ministers before they increased fuel taxes in March 2002, motor vehicle registration taxes in July 2002, and drivers\u2019 licence fees for 10-year licences; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222afb7bacf5214727a4d54e6e9d238dba\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government had a range of information before it considered the 4c petrol tax rise. But that 4c petrol tax rise has made a real dent in some of the backlog of work that was not able to proceed under the previous National Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af30cc5a5ac749d8a6dca57f87e7852e\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Whose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ddeee653c243d69a11e88adc9cc0c0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The building of superhighways worth $5.5 billion is not the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fabca3480f494525980e37f70370bd9c\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Would transferring more long-distance freight off road on to rail be more cost-effective and better for road safety than spending $5.5 billion on a superhighway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d814756d2d44d5b960ba49305c33d48\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. That is why rail is an integral and important part of the transport strategy that the Green Party and Government members released late last year. Making rail more efficient is important for the long-term economic development of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f8c77b4704db4781924a91332c28e513\u0022\u003ETreaty Claims\u2014Settlements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0192e49a7a24270aaab3a3846b5a64c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations: What is the timeframe to settle all Treaty claims in line with the Government\u2019s stated priorities at the last election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00225fb50ffe6a2f4ab6b4f81bfb6a171559\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fb50ffe6a2f4ab6b4f81bfb6a171559\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister in charge of Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E In the Labour 2002 election manifesto, there was a commitment under M\u0101ori development to continue with and improve the treaty settlements process. We have continued to do that, and aim to complete the settlement of historical grievances as soon as possible. No artificial time frame has ever been set by Labour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b721c4fc3aec4156be940e9d782e6b80\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given the priority list that the member referred to, and having regard to the fact that only nine claims have been settled in the last 28 years and 989 claims are still outstanding, can the Minister tell us whether that means that it will take us another 3,090 years to settle the rest, and what are the poor M\u0101ori people going to do in the meantime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022293791e47ba64bb095ed6d837fa2287b\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, one could put an artificial time frame on anything, but at the moment we are making settlements at the rate of about one every 6 months. At present we have 25 different claimant groups at various stages of negotiations. So compared with the progress over the previous 10 years, I think there is improvement in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224213e49a523e46a1b8e27a33f4b655fb\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it not sensible to have a predetermined termination date for the settlement of historical claims under the Treaty of Waitangi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4c951f50ae44e118470bbeca6a04505\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The settlement of historical grievances under the treaty involves two parties. Both parties must agree to the process and to any time frame. The days of the Crown unilaterally imposing its will on the claimant party are over. Further, the process of settlement cannot usually commence until the tribunal has issued its report on the claim. If the Crown imposes an artificial time frame on either the tribunal or the claimants, it runs the risk of creating further grievances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207f2212d12e44674b48b1c6c735018ac\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm the statement made by the Secretary for Justice and the head of the Office of Treaty Settlements that at the current rate of progress, and with current resources, it will take 20 to 25 years before the historical claims are settled; if not, how long does she estimate it will take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b3c83fe44dc42fe91844d4fb36c3ade\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, one can guess any time, and I guess that only time will tell whether that estimate is correct. As I understand it, it was based on the fact that the tribunal, which now has a new system of district casebooks, thinks it will be about 2010 before it has completed all the districts. Given that negotiations normally continue after that, I therefore presume that that was the reason for the time frame being given. In the meantime, I have instructed that we look to see whether we can involve ourselves in direct negotiations on some matters while the tribunal is hearing. That is the approach we are testing with the central North Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221f436b5be554756a8dab2de5e857b5c\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: What time frame does the Minister estimate for the new claims that must surely be generated by the Crown\u2019s deep ignorance of the treaty shown yesterday when a Minister scoffed at the core property guarantee of article 2, which he referred to as \u201Csomething in the Treaty of Waitangi that I have missed after reading it many, many times\u2019\u2019; and has she organised a tutorial for Mr Sutton?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228704fc2a828a4844a8a5cef30c5b660f\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I think the question asked what the time frame will be for new claims, and I assume the member means contemporary claims as opposed to historical claims. Contemporary claims are somewhat difficult to estimate in terms of their time for settlement, so it would be unwise for me\u2014with contemporary claims, just as with historical claims\u2014to impose an artificial time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bc67c5e2a9d432383a1289254dd1441\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was guessing at the question. The question was very simple. It was about new claims generated by Cabinet\u2019s demonstrated ignorance of the treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b86fe7367e4c1fa67faab3b341fed5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is entitled to interpret the question the way she wishes, and she addressed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653f8763475348a0b4cd93129a371610\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister guarantee that no further treaty grievances will be created by this Government, given its policy to build a prison in Ngawha that desecrates w\u0101hi tapu and is arguably a breach of article 2 of the treaty?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4cb73f4c5204eea9178224b8de6152e\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is using its very best endeavours to make sure that no new grievances will be created, which is why we are not prepared to put artificial time frames on the claims process. In terms of the specific matter the member raised, my understanding is that, yes, of course there are differences within iwi on that matter, but all the processes that should have been followed were followed, but, obviously, not to the satisfaction of everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d81a50048f63461b926be36c170ef90a\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Has she conducted an appraisal of the claims development team initiative instigated last year; if she did, what was the outcome of the appraisal, and if she did not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b9574fc64d4853926266d8031826ec\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, we have not offered an appraisal of that. It is just part of the normal performance review of the office. We are, however, in the process of doing an evaluation of the Waitangi Tribunal\u2019s new approach. To some extent the two questions are combined. So far, on the evidence we have, we are very supportive of the tribunal\u2019s new approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228844de9c323f44d190b38943deb3a815\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that she has put into contention her glorious record, and the fact that only five claims have been settled in the last 3\u00BD years since she has been the Minister, at a processing cost of over $40 million, and claims still remain outstanding, does that not mean that it will take 646 years to settle the rest of the claims at a cost of over $8 billion in processing costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3e257e7ca5a472cbc6c89ea6e60d0f6\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said before, one can speculate, but that speculation will not necessarily be accurate. Therefore, I prefer to refer the member to his own very sensible advice that he gave us all, which was that it is time to recognise that hypocrisy and grandstanding must end. The time for the grand gesture and final solutions is over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467d8d29e3fe4fb6a9e80ddc6d4d7b64\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that is part of a glorious speech but it has no relevance whatsoever to the time frame and cost of Waitangi settlements, 989 of which remain outstanding. My question asked the Minister to give us some sort of time frame. I am not trying to obfuscate and evade the facts. She has a responsibility to this House and to this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d62613a2b744e21851229af5bd1857d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might care to make an additional comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4cc7d63c91640d38f427635d79eff14\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can only reiterate that to put artificial time frames on a matter that involves two parties, and not to recognise that there are two parties to that process, would only invite further grievances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221bc75de0b58c4de1af07bcd98a61c9d6\u0022\u003EGeneral Agreement on Trade in Services\u2014World Trade Organization\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228589bb8c6e6e4a21a51196d1c28144e8\u0022\u003EROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade Negotiations: Will the Government give the House the opportunity to debate the offer it intends making under the General Agreement on Trade in Services before it presents it to World Trade Organisation members in March; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u00223b1c5d5fe685491291b6a34b199b73db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b1c5d5fe685491291b6a34b199b73db\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E There is no requirement for New Zealand\u2019s initial offer under the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS) to be presented to Parliament, as it is only a starting point in the negotiation. It remains entirely conditional and revocable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c882e728e1074bd883e37140b961ebfa\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Given that GATS commitments are permanent, why has the Government given other parties in Parliament and the public only 25 days to make submissions on the request and offer phase of GATS, when it has been consulting with vested-interest groups for over a year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0bf6d2aa923438ca4589687faa271eb\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member obviously did not hear what he had been previously told. What is being tabled after 28 days is the initial offer, not our GATS commitment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf817feeb66418d85be2d25fa995205\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister outline precisely what the New Zealand Government\u2019s position is on its participation in the GATS negotiation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956acb62b6dd434b992108ab88a63343\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Government\u2019s position is set out clearly in the discussion document. Cabinet has agreed to 10 guiding principles for New Zealand\u2019s participation in those negotiations, which I will table at the conclusion of the question. I recommend that all members who have not read them do so. In particular, I draw members\u2019 attention to the commitment on public health, public education, water, local government, and M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f895d584454a495d9898e1706b2f25f9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give an assurance that the Government will not do another back-room deal to placate the Greens, the way it did with Keith Locke\u2019s International Treaties Bill when, in October 2000, the Greens threatened to abstain on the next vote of confidence if the Government continued to ignore its concerns about the free-trade agreement with Singapore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d855d02d72241819e63cf07cd3b9927\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that that bill was dealt with by Parliament chucking it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221064a63c1b04416f99ec3d7db03519a1\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Government refuse to accept such a debate, as was set out in the original question, which would give the Government an opportunity to refute the views being expressed at the Catching the Knowledge Wave conference indicating that the Government has no strategic plan for the future; are such criticisms so irrefutable that the Government wishes to shy away from them in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022358cdc71202f49efae3284241ab9e00b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is delighted to debate the principles of its trade policy, and will take up suitable opportunities to do that whenever they arise. The fact of the matter is that it would be neither informative nor helpful for the House to have a debate every time another offer is made or received in the course of the World Trade Organization negotiations. We would be doing very little else in this House for the next 2 or 3 years if that were the approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246c19821b7284b77858d106bea863d3d\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Where does the Minister draw the line between the Government\u2019s executive responsibility, in terms of pursuing a negotiating process and putting forward proposals, etc., and its responsibility to this House also in terms of necessary legislative approvals; and can we expect, as we are to see later this afternoon in respect of another measure, subsequent legislation to ratify agreements coming before this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b0c0fe94f5e437e95c5a65918af4c8b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has adopted a policy of putting trade treaties before the House for debate, before the Government finally commits the nation to them. That practice will be continued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249803b686ef24bfe8ebc34a28bd07754\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Why should we believe the Government\u2019s claim that it is not about to trade away protections for public services under the GATS, when it has asked other countries to do exactly what it claims it will not do itself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284d65bb2d1524e24b79104cf731e2b9a\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: There are countries that need to make changes in their policy settings, but this country\u2019s policy settings are such that we do not need to make any changes in them in order to comply with our initial offers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f26d16b58ad4c47a5fbe96dbde7bf79\u0022\u003EAuckland District Health Boards\u2014Pharmacy Contract\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b81744a0e8d74c13a9dae92776c57c3f\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (NZ National\u2014Kaikoura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Is the reason that the three Auckland district health boards refuse to settle the pharmacy contract and pay pharmacists the same rate as 15 other district health boards because of the financial crisis the Auckland district health boards are facing with a combined projected deficit of over $100 million and her instructions to them to get rid of their deficits; if not, what is the reason?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002242cf53364582434cad613ab4c06c842a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242cf53364582434cad613ab4c06c842a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: No, that is not the reason the three Auckland district health boards refused to settle the pharmacy contract and pay pharmacists the same rate as 15 other district health boards. It is not because of the financial crisis at the Auckland District Health Board. It is because this is a devolved contract and the Auckland district health boards have decided to continue to consult and work with the pharmacists in the area, as is their right, irrespective of the outcome of any negotiations. This will not affect payments made by patients, because district health boards are required to ensure that patients pay no more than the user charges set down by the Government in the Crown funding agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7a4aa2d05144a59be33e2930a4a3a9\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: As the three Auckland district health boards have been funded for a 5.12 percent increase in the number of prescriptions, and the projected growth of Auckland is 2 percent, Counties-Manukau 5.5 percent, and Waitemata 4 percent for the 2003 year, are the district health boards once again just keeping the extra money to pay off their crisis-level deficits, at the expense of burnt-out community pharmacists; if not, why will they not settle?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffa8c08172441d1a60ee9855d1720fb\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not the reason, as I stated in the first response to the member\u2019s question. The three district health boards will receive an extra $149 million in the next year. They will, as the member states, receive a 5.1 percent increase in the amount of money for pharmaceuticals. I have the utmost confidence, as does the Minister of Health, that those pharmacists will continue to provide safe pharmaceutical services to the people of those district health board areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fc21f77a7f1473c9db3ad874302f3d6\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What are the three Auckland district health boards discussing with pharmacists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ae014fa30334717a95e9eb29757d4f1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the three Auckland district health boards do not want to increase dispensing fees without exploring directly with pharmacists other ways to develop agreements. Those agreements should recognise the challenges and opportunities for patients, pharmacists, and district health boards by discussing the financial risk around dispensing costs, including avoiding uncapped demand-driven cost increases. District health boards are also looking to increase the opportunity for pharmacists\u2019 services to be integrated into the primary health-care strategy, and see a role for pharmacists in district health boards\u2019 chronic-care programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b7cb55740c84a2595fa3c6fa928a38d\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Is her refusal to become involved with pharmacy contracts, as she promised last December that she would, due to the fact that she approves of individual contracts, or because she is determined to avoid all responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e03716ff2e764022bd6a4857ea30cc75\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As that member should well know, section 33 of the New Zealand Public Health and Disability Act precludes the Minister from any involvement. I am aware that three members of this House\u2014Mrs Scott, Mrs Kedgley, and Mrs Roy\u2014did attend a meeting last night in Auckland where they encouraged pharmacists not to compromise with the district health board, and they sought to have ministerial intervention. This is a new policy from the ACT party, which now wants political interference in what is a commercial negotiation between the district health board and the pharmacist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a390c641a55c4b7dba1a2560c8be1e09\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder how appropriate it is for the Government, which was invited to the meeting but did not turn up, to now come into the House and try to interpret what did happen at the meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220660603ef472480ea4246a812b5b5899\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a political point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcbc49618c3e45a0897a2636e238f939\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that it would be grossly unfair and discriminatory if the three Auckland district health boards were to draw up a separate contract for pharmacists in their area that had a lower dispensing fee than pharmacists receive in all the other district health board areas that have signed the national contract, and will she therefore step in to prevent that and ensure that pharmacists in Auckland do not end up getting paid less than the rest of the country; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229541572a05e24f799f6c7056bf22fcf3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: As the member for West Coast - Tasman I am very well aware that there are different prices around the country for all kinds of services. It is not for us to determine what the appropriate price is. That responsibility has been devolved to the district health board to negotiate with the pharmacists in their particular regions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274f59815aa484f0c855c9a51326dd7cd\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: With the six district health boards of Auckland, Waitemata, Counties-Manukau, Northland, South Canterbury, and Hawke\u2019s Bay still not having settled their contracts, is it not time to admit that this process is increasing bureaucracy and fragmentation, wasting money, time, and effort, and when will she use some common sense and return to a national contract?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b4060b6d264793855e41280e22ccc9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am astounded at the new policies from the National Party regarding centralised control of such services. Fifteen district health boards have signed up with the pharmacists. I suggest that that is a very positive move, and I am confident that the six others will sign up in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc61c504de044ee5971f2c5094e39961\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table metropolitan Auckland pharmacy expenditure statistics that show that Auckland is expecting 2 percent growth, Counties-Manukau 5.5 percent, and Waitemata 4 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fef55b26f2f4295bd5c4193dea9e899\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261814039688d4b5d9ef0e2c81e7f032e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a report from today\u2019s Bay of Plenty Times that shows that because of a lack of funding, the region\u2019s palliative care service will have to remove all its beds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221139301b9b74b3590d448e941fc952e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f47e021638694df9847513ac39f3b3c3\u0022\u003EWork and Income Department\u2014Placements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244bca99801404386823c981e9a10c1b2\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Social Services and Employment: What recent reports has he received on Department of Work and Income employment placements?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba0002e9d19541b087101cfd61db9044\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba0002e9d19541b087101cfd61db9044\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that in the last 6 months of 2002 the Work and Income service of the Ministry of Social Development improved its long-term employment placements by 7.6 percent. In other words, Work and Income helped 25,000 New Zealanders into jobs lasting at least 3 months\u2014up from 23,000 the year before. With unemployment at a 15-year low, the Work and Income folks are managing to offer sustainable work opportunities to thousands of New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f635190fcbe4c1bb68e8213187d2c36\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: How do the most recent employment placement results compare with earlier years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a5b9e8f86e4277995f1ac397e4c8b1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Work and Income has achieved a more than 100 percent improvement in long-term employment placements in each duration band, compared with the same period in 1998. This includes people who have been unemployed for 4 years or more, who often have difficulty re-entering the paid workforce, where their performance has improved by over 250 percent; as well as those who have been unemployed for up to 6 months, where Work and Income has placed a staggering 372 percent more people into work, compared with the last full year of a National-led Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a6e973cd4d84cb0b8e47a557545ebf0\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of his comments about employment placements, can the Minister explain why there is still a dire shortage of workers in some industries like trucking and the fruit industry, why M\u0101ori unemployment is still at 11.5 percent, and the cost of the invalids benefit is predicted to nearly double under his stewardship to $1.2 billion by 2007?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a9de82f59c14053bf75f1f1ea281b75\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The reasons that we have shortages in areas like trucking and the seasonal fruit-picking industry, and unemployment amongst M\u0101ori, of course take longer to explain than I can take today. One of the things I would say about trucking, for example, which the industry itself acknowledges, is that it has not planned for its own needs in that industry. So we are working with the industry training organisation to cure that. In the fruit-picking area we have, for example, labour shortages in many of the areas of the South Island at the present time. We simply do not have the people to pick fruit, because we have been so successful in getting them into jobs in that area. Can I say in relation to M\u0101ori that the unemployment rate has dropped from around 19 percent to around 11 percent under this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d8c7de830164aa9b65e77131a890035\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why he gloats about stable employment placements, when his own answers show that nearly half of all those people are not in stable placements at all, but end up back on the dole within 6 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022008f25a0f2984281a759c68cf1833900\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is never the intention of this Government to gloat about anything to do with employment and unemployment. We realise that these areas have a lot of complex reasons as to why we are doing so well. What we do is simply report the facts, and the facts are that we are staggeringly successful in this country at the moment\u2014a 15-year low in unemployment figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2fd7675350c4d1e8ad76671e3e4e7d1\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022447a9951ca5940d794fb66dd7b4abad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022447a9951ca5940d794fb66dd7b4abad5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to hold my question over until such time as the Minister in charge is here to front up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5c6bfdd1ee4e78b3b577e9f7af4d5c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to do that; is there any objection? Please ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220793b9e79157419380bbd1b479926288\u0022\u003ESovereign Yachts\u2014Sales\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022781006b9f76c46f0b4639ed3b9f00891\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Economic Development: Why was the House told on his behalf on 28 March last year when questioned about Sovereign yachts that \u201CIn 8 weeks, construction will begin on a second boat,\u201D and does he stand by the statement then that \u201CThis is a real success story, which is only beginning to unfold.\u201D given that the New Zealand Herald reported on 18 February this year that construction still hasn\u2019t started on the second boat because of \u201Csome dispute about freight charges\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022508283579a6d4ff486bd587a3c97d6de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022508283579a6d4ff486bd587a3c97d6de\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Associate Minister for Economic Development)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Economic Development: Because that is what Sovereign Yachts told the Ministry of Economic Development; and yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a413651a814db5b1567862ac415748\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of his answer, is he confident that his Sovereign Yachts project will deliver the $24 million in net benefits promised by his officials, when so far only one boat has been built on spec, the second boat\u2019s construction is now a year late, and staff are being laid off; and does this Minister expect his officials to prepare a report on just what his Sovereign Yachts project has cost taxpayers and what it has returned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab728780e0144aac8d7dd4bb46bb9a02\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is proud that there are jobs in Hobsonville now; there were not, under the previous Government. But Mr Hide continually asks questions that are best directed to Mr Lloyd. I understand that Mr Hide has been out on the boat, enjoying the hospitality of Mr Lloyd, so I presume he has his cellphone number. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71df23e6ac1426283fe420a00422caf\u0022\u003EDavid Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister outline some of the highlights of the Government\u2019s economic development programme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233e3a141b4e74ea7820cddbde50aebcc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. That question is totally out of order. It is far too wide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232c0866d711b4275b0982361f2f6727b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I certainly want to have a supplementary question in a minute, but it might be only fair to ask Mr Cunliffe to rephrase the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb305118df741c5963cfe1540053ba4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I will decide whether a member does not ask a question correctly. I am not obliged to have that member ask it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f106bd62624986b44d5ad1a9784730\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister for Economic Development stands by his comments reported in the New Zealand Herald on 4 February 2001, in which he talks of a partnership between Sovereign Yachts, the Ministry of Economic Development, and the Waitakere City Council that enabled Sovereign Yachts to buy 10 acres of land and get favourable resource consents for a sum of some $500,000, and as that same land is now valued at over $10 million, does he accept that all that his ministry has done is relieve the New Zealand taxpayer of at least $9.5 million in favour of Sovereign Yachts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222830d74c2ebc4cbdb8e0e7beecbbf05d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No. As the Minister has said on many occasions, the land was sold according to the provisions of the Public Works Act. But the important point about this matter is that under this Government there are jobs there; under that member\u2019s Government there were none\u2014not one, zippo. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70f129bb679444b89ff9d3b59df5f8e\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister say that there are jobs there now, while under the previous Government there were not, when for at least 30 or 40 years there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of jobs at Hobsonville and Whenuapai as a result of the Royal New Zealand Air Force bases in Auckland being there\u2014jobs that are worth $500 million or more to Waitakere City\u2014and, as a result of this Labour Government\u2019s decisions and the decisions of the previous National Government, Waitakere City will be suffering considerable unemployment as a result of the closure of those bases, with thousands of jobs being taken away by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a80b9d8d19a47e0acfec5ac0b35f0b4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: There are jobs in the marine industry, on that part of the land, that were not there in the time of the previous Government. I suggest that that member stops whingeing and get in and support the private sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfcf78c016574fe7a171d62ce0876f75\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister\u2019s Sovereign Yachts project has failed to deliver on the promised three superyachts a year, and the promised annual turnover of $100 million, does he still stand by his statement to Parliament on 16 April 2002 that: \u201CWe need more developments like the Sovereign Yachts development if we are to create the jobs and incomes that New Zealanders need.\u201D, or is this blatant failure and fiasco acceptable to him, on a project that he himself declared to be the triumph of his \u201Cjobs machine\u201D policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93fba3e90b54819a63f0872768aebc5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the Government believes that there needs to be more kinds of investment in jobs along the lines of the ones that have already been promoted by the Minister and the Ministry of Economic Development. But the important point is that the Government believes that putting energy into real initiatives out of his ministry is much better for the New Zealand economy than promoting pyramid selling or Fijian investment seminars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da1bfb4b3bc04a49bafbbc7843b4a6e4\u0022\u003ESpecial Education\u2014Closures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022966af29d688a41a9b34d5fa883afa9f4\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Special Education): In light of the Court of Appeal decision Attorney-General v Daniels issued yesterday that the then Minister of Education acted unlawfully when in 1998 he disestablished special needs classes, units and services, does she agree that the money spent on the appeal and preceding cases would have been better spent on direct funding for special needs children than on litigation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002299f0976d0517478d949ec954115bb9e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299f0976d0517478d949ec954115bb9e1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Education (Special Education)):\u003C/span\u003E My answer to that question would usually be yes, but on this occasion it is no, because the High Court judgment against the Crown was so broad and had such serious ramifications, not only for education but for other aspects of public policy, that the Crown had no choice but to appeal that decision. Prior to the original proceeding being brought by the parents against the previous Government, I did meet with them in an attempt to find a resolution to their concerns. The Court of Appeal decision backs up my strong view that litigation is no way to resolve public policy issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f3de98c78e2435ab179af9a68a3476b\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister agree, first, not to seek costs against the parents in this case, and, second, to contribute to the legal costs of the parents, whose concern to protect their children\u2019s right to appropriate, quality education was upheld by both the High Court and the Court of Appeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5958bb1977f461f90c5bb6b7773100d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The judgment specifically rules on the issue of the closure of units. The real issue that the Crown had to appeal was that relating to the implications of the High Court ruling on sections 3, 8, 9, and 10. We succeeded on those appeals, and there is now going to be a remedies action in the High Court in respect of the situation in relation to the units. What I do hope is that the parties can talk to each other in the intervening period, because I would like to see a win-win out of that, as the Court of Appeal case has been a win-win for the parents and the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a0e07aec6e84e2280a45e42be7471fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What is this Government\u2019s commitment to special education that sees young Bernard O\u2019Regan in Reefton deprived of school bus transport each day, when all that was required was for the school bus contract tender to include provision for wheelchair access, and what is this Minister going to do to fix this obvious stuff-up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3481401541f4ebca3c6b550a4d21f4c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you for some consistency here. Right through Dr Nick Smith\u2019s supplementary question we had constant chipping, because the Government did not like it. You pulled the members up. The Minister over there refused to follow your instructions, and continued chipping, and you are looking right at her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42b544981c146e69ac5414ba32b14e4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has raised a valid point of order, and the member concerned will keep quiet when questions are being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227364b565d82541c9b385805d7b50ee4d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I do fail to see what that question has to do with Wyatt Creech\u2019s decision to close units, which has just been held to be unlawful by the Court of Appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236faef66fc8645489eeb07e34f32f778\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the issue in the Daniels\u2019 case was precipitated by the fact that the Minister at the time, Wyatt Creech, followed Ministry of Education advice that the Education Act did not require amendment to accommodate the Special Education 2000 policy, a policy that increased expenditure on special-education students by hundreds of millions of dollars?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ef591e9bbd44784b3aa913649865315\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: From the advice I have, I cannot confirm whether the specific question was directed to the Minister. What I can say, though, is that what Cabinet considered at that time was a report back to the Minister of Education on the impact of the proposal on the disestablishment decision, in terms of ensuring the continuity of the general capacity to offer choice to parents between mainstreaming or a special-education unit, but that was after the decision had been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2c6ba383ed2424594138eb624f86c80\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Court of Appeal comment on the funding of special education in respect of the introduction of Special Education 2000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229362e0fd65924bdea01256faf0d507ef\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Court of Appeal found that \u201Cextra funding has throughout been a critical part of the development of SE2000\u201D. Special education funding for 2002 was $329.62 million compared with $170 million in 1995. The number of students directly receiving assistance has risen from about 20,000 in 1995 to over 50,000 today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ff848b0b3414d189e25e5e92585c9aa\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister support bulk funding for special-needs students, and, indeed, the principle of bulk funding for all students\u2019 teaching; if not, why did this Government appeal the High Court decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04e2ff40a3f479880b360de9ab1cf53\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest the member read the decision, and she would understand why we appealed it. If she had read the Baragwanath decision, she would know very clearly that there were very important grounds to do that, and we have succeeded on those grounds, and that will be a significant benefit. I also suggest the member look at the Special Education 2000 policy, because this issue is only one, very small component of the total triangle that is funded by way of bulk-funded grant\u2014the special-education grant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebfdebc7f6cb4600b551226b513fdf5d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00224e65c801b5f3486d9938d35a153433eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e65c801b5f3486d9938d35a153433eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I call question No. 8\u2014[Interruption] I am sorry; I call Metiria Turei.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f00cc6923c49a984823eb6c9e4f298\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I sought the call, and you made the judgment to move on to the next question. Why is it suddenly possible for you to change the tune and, having disallowed my having the opportunity, allow a Green member to have the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d973964b35b2477ba7a5f2f3e6c5add5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d973964b35b2477ba7a5f2f3e6c5add5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because the member knows I allocate a distinct number of supplementary questions each day. In actual fact, the Green Party advised it wanted two calls on this question. It misses out on a large number of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7db39b3dfc4e629290a5d7ee2a879c\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister now accept that the special-education grant funding, which is part of Special Education 2000, has failed to provide assistance to hundreds of children with moderate special needs, and will she, instead, ensure that the said grant for children with moderate needs is based on, and used specifically for, the actual number of special-needs children in each school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022931b452bf31e4aa38699a789b905088f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The member well knows that this Government introduced the enhanced programme funding last year specifically to address the needs of schools that have a higher level of students with moderate special needs than other schools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4dee51deff74e899e83be1de46da97f\u0022\u003ETe Hauora o Te Tai Tokerau Trust\u2014Fraudulent Expenditure Recovery\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a374ec9b9544219d063110b04c1451\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Social Services and Employment: Following Police confirmation that Te Hau Ora O Te Tai Tokerau Trust did invest $100,000 of taxpayer and Department of Child, Youth and Family Services money in a fraudulent investment scheme, did purchase $20,000 worth of gym equipment from a key executive\u2019s son and did spend nearly $25,000 on an unapproved overseas trip, what accountability will the department be seeking from the Trust, and will it recover any money from the Trust?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00227640ecdcad664589a8ff7f43347e3e1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227640ecdcad664589a8ff7f43347e3e1c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E In terms of seeking accountability, the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services has withdrawn contracts, commenced legal proceedings to freeze and recover public money, and requested a police investigation into possible criminal conduct, and, given that the trust is now in liquidation, it is pursuing fund recovery through that process. Of course, how much money is available will depend on the liquidator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221920d5d332564b31a1b5b9e1b88861c4\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Plunket first warned the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services in writing 2\u00BD years ago, staff warned it 1\u00BD years ago\u2014again, in writing\u2014and the department eventually gave Te Hau Ora O Te Tai Tokerau Trust a 60-day ultimatum, why did it still take the Minister another 6 months to act, which gave the trust even more time to spend up large on barbells, bench presses, overseas trips, and shocking investments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3afa274eccf46c2b04316ba91ffa4e3\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said in the House and to this member before, I think the department behaved appropriately in this matter. When the matter was brought to its attention by Plunket, it began monitoring the organisation. In 2001, when the department was written to about the organisation, it began the process of working through with the organisation, which resulted in the withdrawal of its funding. The member will also know that about 3 weeks before we proceeded with criminal proceedings, I said in the House that I thought the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services had done its job as it should; it had taken about 2 or 3 weeks too long, and that is why I told it to go to court and freeze the assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e1107f76014837b089060c0b2a92ab\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: For what reasons do Government departments like the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services contract with community agencies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ddf6f362d934ba98886be1a6c6f6592\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Government departments contract with a wide range of community agencies to deliver community, social, and other services. Many groups, of course, offer excellent and innovative services run by local people for local people. The vast majority of them do exactly what their contract requires of them. It would be an unfortunate day if the actions of a few individuals in one organisation such as this were to tarnish the reputations of the many thousands of people who run successful services across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f649e32e01394fa486f8c1b707c2527d\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister concede that this Te Hauora o te Tai Tokerau case demonstrates appalling contracting processes, including monitoring, within his ministry, and will he guarantee to this House that the steps he has taken to make these processes more robust will ensure that no more such scandalous examples of wastage of taxpayers\u2019 money will occur?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e8eddcd112b4a31841892f8964d31e8\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not concede that this indicates that our contracting across the board is a problem. In fact, the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services contracts with something over 1,000 organisations; this organisation is just one, which we have heard about. But I repeat to that member, whom I want to thank for the way he has approached this issue\u2014supporting people in his community to get the services up and running again\u2014that what we do not want to see is this one case, involving in particular one individual, being allowed to taint other community groups or the success of this approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c30c826b2a9c46ba9c617adecf63f6a2\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe the trustees\u2019 spending was properly authorised and accountable; if not, could he advise the House whether he has asked, or intends to ask, the Attorney-General to do her duty as guardian of charitable trusts and take action against the defaulting trustees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3ff2e62285748729bcfd32825bb8de6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Working back through the question, I first say that, of course, the trustees are now in voluntary liquidation. The person she is referring to in relation to the misappropriation or the misuse of funds has lost her job, and therefore has been fully accountable for what has occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022371f885b81774870b68570d782dd9ed1\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was whether he had asked the Attorney-General. I would like the member to answer that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6bce045b4ba4c4bbcdf09d20760735b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister said no to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299a2dc9996e243f38c9b50edae8e8e1e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61358832be34850b41a433029bbc12b\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: What investment guidelines does his department give to recipients of funds who need to manage the use of that money over a length of time, and where short-term investment may be considered an option?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720a475716f44a71b9a1d22ea8309fdf\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but, as I understood the question, it was what assistance is given to organisations in terms of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f82f3fe562445b089425dfb4da0732e\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: What guidelines do you give?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea23e026163648f39343357cc67c2a7a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Treasury has issued guidelines for all community groups in relation to the use of their money, and one of the things it makes very clear is that groups should not be investing that money in a short-term way, looking for interest. That money is there for them to invest in the services they provide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c9062c8432416da42ffde107c6fd03\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister support the Controller and Auditor-General\u2019s proposal to me\u2014because I have written to him\u2014and to this Parliament to have a wide-ranging study of contracting practices right across the State sector, in the light of what we can learn from the Minister\u2019s Te Hauora o te Tai Tokerau fiasco?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022111bb5a2b42545848c0c934b9883fc11\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, because we do this as a Government ourselves. We are absolutely committed to the principle of delivering services through local people, unlike, it seems, the National Party, and because we are doing that, we are very vigilant in relation to the way contracting is done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022773f5fccd1fa47dc847a2df9bb549e4a\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a statement in this House made by the Hon Ruth Dyson last year, admitting that Plunket and staff had written to the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d87163ac14c84c34b1f06932c06fb42b\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a 6-page police report confirming Te Hauora o te Tai Tokerau\u2019s slightly uncurbed spending habits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209aaa82295a1425fb484592401e95354\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Finally, I seek leave to table a recent letter to me from the Controller and Auditor-General, proposing a wide-ranging study.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228f56a08f9d68478b9e483d9f47394c09\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Minister, 19 February\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00227fbd9b73b4f04feaab82f4d424fe2472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227fbd9b73b4f04feaab82f4d424fe2472\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Associate Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Further to a question yesterday, where Mr Winston Peters made a request of the Minister for Economic Development, I seek leave to table research into the Buy New Zealand Made scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022060e497c929b44b3b78bfd27ce68c2f4\u0022\u003EProstitution Reform Bill\u2014Human Rights\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e8d1f0116c4af991bc1258d35d0993\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is he concerned that New Zealand may be in violation of its international commitments to uphold human rights if the Prostitution Reform Bill is passed; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022173b2cd6f31e42cfbf86d795393e84ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022173b2cd6f31e42cfbf86d795393e84ca\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E No, this is a matter that has been considered by the New Zealand Human Rights Commission. Its view of the modern approach taken by the United Nations human rights instruments is that they focus on the exploitative elements of prostitution as giving rise to human rights violations, rather than on determining that prostitution per se is a violation of human rights. This bill is entirely consistent with that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6eb6e4cf71645a99b4656cc8ec3d9ef\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that since New Zealand is a signatory to the United Nations Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, Especially Women and Children, supplementing the United Nations Convention Against Transnational Organised Crime, the passage of the prostitution law reform may create an environment in New Zealand that is in violation of our obligations under that protocol; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b0ed4d897b548808d9a7328f18b6daa\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not concerned that would be the case. That particular protocol deals with the trafficking of people, including prostitutes, where force or coercion is involved, or, alternatively, abduction, fraud, or deception. In fact, the contrary of what the member is saying is true. I believe there is a greater prospect of the use of coercion, fraud, and trafficking where prostitution remains illegal. In those cases, the women who are the victims of that find it harder to take their cases to authorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e2ca706fdfa46fd92241d5d01a4c2a6\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: Has the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women\u2014CEDAW\u2014expressed a view that the decriminalisation of prostitution is in breach of the convention on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951784d7b20542a29afd8fc2001495db\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The answer to that is also no. That committee emphasises that prostitution poses for women risks of exploitation and violence, and, whether or not prostitution is legal, it is minimising those risks that is the important point. That committee, for example, has raised the issue, with regard to the Swedish model, of the risks that forcing prostitution to be clandestine has for trafficking in women. It thinks there are greater risks of trafficking where prostitution is forced to be clandestine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022638a7af6d14c41ac87f17c7d81b33b43\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Will New Zealand, as a party to the United Nations trafficking in persons protocol, be exercising its rights of denunciation under article 19 if we become a safe haven for the forced, organised travel of prostitutes coming from off shore to take advantage of the freer environment that will be given to them, if the Prostitution Reform Bill is enacted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0162f55b8dd45fa83232e897238f778\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has been active on a number of fronts to ensure that the appalling crime of trafficking in persons is restricted, and we have worked through the Bali conference with other countries to do that. We have worked through greater cooperation between the police forces of the countries of origin and the countries where the women may end up. We will take every step possible to stop the coercion of women into either slave labour or prostitution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221719dfafca04cf088eaae3400fcc6af\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s answer when he referred to the Swedish model, does he have evidence that in Sweden there is more trafficking of women than in any other European city or State, because those of us who are opposed to prostitution have evidence that the situation is the reverse of that, and the trafficking of women has gone down considerably in Sweden?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbeb51c65aa9475a9c4c9a6fa01b21fa\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The matter I was referring to was the concern expressed by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women that, by making prostitution clandestine\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a704fbeee5448f59bfa835338f49c40\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: You raised Sweden.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222df2bd10a2bc4b9082de90f1df94747e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was referring to Sweden\u2014that has increased the risk of trafficking in women. The member can shake his head all he likes, but I am quoting to him what that committee found. I welcome that member tabling any evidence that he has to the contrary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e51ad9e0ba445c39171b0077b413cb5\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: What measures has the Government taken to reduce the incidence of child prostitution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b83eceafc8f4cf797f2ee4149f30259\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: In March 2001 this Government passed the Crimes Amendment Bill, which brought New Zealand legislation into full compliance with ILO Convention 182 concerning the worst forms of child labour. That legislation made it a criminal offence in New Zealand to be the client of a prostitute under the age of 18. It also prohibited all procuring of children, whether male or female, for prostitution. Those were two major gaps in the law, and this Government has closed them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297b6a21dc0cb4a289405cd209670934f\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that article 9.5 of the protocol I referred to in my previous supplementary question states that States shall adopt or strengthen legislative and other measures, such as educational, social, or cultural measures, to discourage demand that fosters all forms of exploitation of persons, especially women and children, that leads to trafficking, and will the Minister therefore explain how the liberalising of our laws against prostitution will discourage that demand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206af77bf95fd4deab48157e93fbc2269\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am of course aware of that, but the member has brought forward no evidence that the decriminalisation of prostitution in New Zealand would increase the level of trafficking of women into New Zealand for that reason. I repeat to him the concern expressed by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women that, in fact, when prostitution is made clandestine it actually increases the prospect of trafficking. That is what the report of that committee states.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c38a0cb81e134a6e965f621277b74371\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was referring to a report, and I seek that the report be tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227903f76491f6416587d803622964c140\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can table it if he wishes. The member cannot ask someone else to table a report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c663bd8a2d7442fd801753cf9bbfaa20\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that report in the House. I can give the member the reference to it, so he can find it for himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222549738632c042baaae2d0c4f7f97f55\u0022\u003EInquiry into Airfield Activities\u2014Commerce Commission Report\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a28d99b2824ce5a24a0a430cf6ddb3\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce: Does she have confidence in the recommendations of the Commerce Commission contained in its final report on its inquiry into airfield activities; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225308a7f7c4734dd49324aee4d4989072\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I have not yet made any decisions on the recommendations of the Commerce Commission report on its inquiry into airfield activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3dfa698ae4c43a1b80d63306e9fbe4d\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does she believe that in Wellington Airport\u2019s overall charges an increase of 78 percent is significant, and if she does will she ensure that the airport activities are controlled as per the Commerce Commission\u2019s recommendations in that report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0c9e8a5d7fa49169bff1953fb5699bf\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The advice that I have is that most of Wellington International Airport Ltd\u2019s price increase relates to terminal charges, which are outside the scope of the Commerce Commission\u2019s inquiry. Having said that, its increased price for airfield activities of 27.6 percent is certainly greater than the 10 percent increase factored into the commission\u2019s analysis. I will be taking all those matters into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220956b584b8cd4889bc01210f5830cebc\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister still seriously considering placing price controls on Auckland airport, given that one of its major customers, United Airlines, has just withdrawn its Los Angeles to Auckland service and that, with the prospect of war soon, the international aviation market is expecting a 20 percent downturn in business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258d4a2e923ea4b889df08706d53f023b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I have received the Commerce Commission\u2019s report and I am awaiting advice from officials. I will make my decision after that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e8b2b7eb794eb3a3068261f582d527\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: When is the Minister expecting to make a decision on the report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022405daba27398490784a03682241fbb25\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I anticipate receiving a report from officials in the next few weeks. On that basis, I would be hopeful of making a decision on whether to recommend control by the end of March.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979500691d264f5b852c3e728f34dc91\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that these new charges implemented by Wellington Airport will make the cost of landing a Boeing 737 at Wellington twice as much as at Auckland or Christchurch, and will she tell us personally whether that is acceptable to her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e8d1c3cdbd4710a4cd0bf5770a6ac7\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, the Commerce Commission did identify the fact that Wellington Airport might, in fact, be increasing its charges during the period within which I would be making my decision. I have said to the member that I will take the matter under advisement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d825d0d916214880bfb72b684b260efc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 9 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002234a5fea09877402ea02ad57b90de2352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234a5fea09877402ea02ad57b90de2352\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With regard to the question asked by Mr Jones and others, the reference is to the report of the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, sessions 24 and 25 in 2001, and the General Assembly records at page 79, paragraph 354.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ab46ad3fbee84ec098a4830d818bdc49\u0022\u003EWorkplaces\u2014Injury Rates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af4f31515d5b4fef8742715f76478b9e\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: What recent reports has she received on workplace injury rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c2e793c0354c4c87ca6e1bbb2c53c2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I recently received an update on the Accident Compensation Corporation\u2019s employer intervention programme, which is targeted at workplaces where high injury rates have been reported. I am delighted that for the 6 months to December 2002, the programme achieved injury reductions of between 8 percent and 22 percent, compared with the same period in the previous year. That amounts to nearly 900 fewer injuries over a 6-month period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f39a62753542a4b382a62fa8ccf629\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What other measures is the Accident Compensation Corporation taking to reduce workplace injury rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6b7545335d04061b68e9a33697492c0\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is taking a large number, but I will just highlight one that I would like to draw to the attention of the House. The safer industries programme is targeting 10 high-risk industries, including farming, construction, and forestry. Under the programme 40,000 construction workers have received site safety training. The aim of the programme is to halve the injury rates in those high-injury-risk occupations over the next 10 years. That benefits the workers and their families, their employers, the economy, the health system, and our communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022513fbb3eb18c45999b9843f43da8d65c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the most dramatic drop year-on-year in workplace injuries in New Zealand in recent years occurred after the introduction of the competitive model to the provision of workplace accident insurance, why did the Government remove the scheme and replace it with a non-incentivised monopoly scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c14594026e4a7aa1da8ebc461d59c1\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I look forward to the day when we can move on from that debate and focus in a united fashion on the goals that I am sure, underneath it all, we all share\u2014that is, to reduce the total cost of workplace injuries in our community. I have just given the House two examples of the incentives in the renationalised accident compensation scheme that directly benefit employers and reduce injuries, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d18c6c66c8d84d738f73f38495666759\u0022\u003ESchool Attendance\u2014Youth Offenders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b1b413a15a413cae798e63a873fc87\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Why was only one of the five young offenders convicted on the murder or manslaughter of Michael Choy on Thursday 13 September 2001 enrolled in a mainstream school and attending regularly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002294334e8dbbc84b72a7d901bf07df077f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294334e8dbbc84b72a7d901bf07df077f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Education (Special Education))\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Education: Of the five young offenders concerned, one was in school and one was not required to be at school as he was over 16. The three remaining offenders were involved with education and other social service agencies, in an attempt to address the wide range of issues in those young people\u2019s lives, including schooling. They were not in mainstream schools at the time of the offence because they had displayed a range of behavioural problems that, despite considerable effort, were beyond what a school could be expected to manage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ae9a902d89472ca345f74bfe8823eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Having dismissed previous concerns from the Opposition about truancy on the basis of the protocol between the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services and the Ministry of Education, can the Minister explain why in the year concerned the ministry\u2019s truancy service received notifications of 5,350 long-term truants, but only made 118\u2014or 2 percent\u2014of those referrals to the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, and does that not suggest that his much-vaunted protocol is nothing less than a joke?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972950f1c2b648e4b1b85b78c43e30b6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is fully accepted that the protocol needs strengthening, which is why we are doing just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022403197743f2c45f68346178b2b3a8ccb\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: What is the key to improving the responsiveness of the education sector to participating in problems among at-risk students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b3dbaf52fc84daea3408e993cb07b64\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: On reading the report into the death of Michael Choy, I became aware for the first time that Ministers had collective knowledge about those young people\u2019s lives that none of the individual agencies had in the lead-up to that tragic event. Although nothing could have predicted that homicide, one of the solutions lies in accepting that the challenge of keeping at-risk young people engaged in education is a responsibility shared by schools, the wider education system, families, and other agencies. We are working to achieve just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa800f1d40c74612820bb694d9a24647\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister expect truancy officers to effectively police persistent truants when their funding has not increased for the last 5 years and some truancy services, like the one in Patea, are paying their staff from community grants in order to maximise the resources the ministry has given them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243be40318b8a4b6ea43df9cbf910bff1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: There is a very good question in there in relation to the two forms of services that we have. We have the Non-enrolment Truancy Service, and we have the district truancy services. There are some crossover issues, some funding issues, and some resource issues. That is why this Government is reviewing the truancy services as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc915f87b414e64aea2988884111816\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that Bailey Junior Kurariki was one of 7,407 at-risk students enrolled at the Correspondence School when he committed the manslaughter of Michael Choy, will the Minister now accept that such enrolments at the Correspondence School of at-risk students are a farce and simply sweep under the carpet thousands of school-age children who are at risk to both themselves and others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232061d39ae6047d29b7620c2ec24631c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is easy to establish in hindsight that a particular option was not working well for an individual child. The member should note that the number of at-risk students enrolled in the Correspondence School at the end of last year was 100 fewer than in 1999, when he was the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022136d3148f811497e8314f9ad62900cc2\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister consider increasing the penalties under the Education Act 1989 for the parents of persistent truants, given the laughable fines of between $15 and $150 if prosecuted under the current legislation and the fact that parents are often complicit in their children\u2019s behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfa5622eafb74920beec0baff8057d54\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had read the report into the death of Michael Choy, he would know that the parents struggled very hard with children whose behaviours they could not control themselves, either. I do not think the solution lies in punishing parents. It lies in working with parents to try to assist them to keep their children engaged in the education system. We know that if we can keep the children engaged, the risk of them offending is reduced significantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224498a716e5ba45bdbd0f04fe7cdba8da\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002217c7e133942b45168550a085d5c56ab6\u0022\u003EImmigration\u2014English Language\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E1. GERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0638f5f53f5462f860bdeb241b739f2\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee: Has a committee meeting been set to consider the petition of Kenneth Wang and others requesting a review of the new English Language immigration tests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022201c6c076b324e0a9f1e8eca4365cd68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022201c6c076b324e0a9f1e8eca4365cd68\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Chairperson of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd19a03c2144b949f3ca682453c27ef\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: Has the committee taken into consideration, when setting its time table for hearing that petition, that thousands of people are affected by the Government\u2019s sudden change in immigration criteria; if so; how can the committee justify the lack of urgency given to the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022935234363cb642978e124df7f00e0ded\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The committee has received that petition and at least one other of a similar prayer, and will proceed to consider them at the appropriate time, given its other priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e970d5f9ad34353ab297756bff2c7b9\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Will the committee, when finally considering that petition, allow a full range of evidence, including the Prime Minister\u2019s statement to the House last year, in which she said: \u201CWe\u2019ve also eased the English language testing requirement to make New Zealand a more attractive destination for migrants. The last Government\u2019s position of a stringent English language test had an adverse impact on migration.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba2861359ac44006bb34d9a5275e299d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba2861359ac44006bb34d9a5275e299d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in my original answer, the committee has yet to determine when it will hear that petition. That also means it is yet to determine the shape of such a hearing. I am sure, given the spirit in which the committee works, that we will come to some acceptable agreement about the range of issues to be considered and the way in which members may participate in that process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002216c1a13ded9f4abaab3ce556c25931ee\u0022\u003EImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e341dfa6628c4aa3a363a03edb95bdd2\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00224fa5b66f806044c692b8f4b051c57d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fa5b66f806044c692b8f4b051c57d8b\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I will be recommending that the House refer the bill to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its consideration, that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during questions for oral answer and during any evening in a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b) and (c), and with an instruction that the committee report back to the House by 8 May 2003. That report back date should allow New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions before they come into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThis bill amends the Import Control Act in order to provide for the making of export control regulations, to give effect to the requirements of the Rotterdam, Stockholm, Basel, and Waigani conventions, and any other international obligations that bind or become binding on New Zealand. That provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment. Members may wish to refer to reports of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee that examined both conventions, and that reported to the House in February 2002 that there were no matters to bring to the attention of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EImportantly, members should note that it is expected that there will be no cost to the economy arising from the export controls in the bill. The key measure in the bill mirrors the Import Control Act\u2019s import control mechanism, and provides for the Governor-General, by Order in Council, to make regulations that prohibit the exportation of specified goods. Any prohibition may be general, limited, absolute, or conditional. A conditional prohibition permits exportation of goods, subject to the grant of a licence or permit by the Minister or prescribed person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe bill also includes provision for export controls to be made to meet the requirements of the Basel convention on the control of transboundary movements of hazardous wastes and their disposal. The Waigani convention is to ban the importation into Forum Island countries of hazardous and radioactive waste and control the transboundary movement and management of hazardous waste within the South Pacific region. Currently, export controls to meet New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the Basel and Waigani conventions are in place through in Order in Council under the Customs and Excise Act. Those must be reviewed every 3 years. The bill provides a more durable mechanism to meet the obligations in those conventions, and will consolidate the existing export controls with those required to implement the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe bill, together with certain amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, will enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions, thereby adding value to efforts to protect the health of New Zealanders, the quality of our food, and demonstrating our commitment to multilateral solutions to global problems. I commend the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022775f25a156dc4e068a8945ee014fc137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022775f25a156dc4e068a8945ee014fc137\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The National Opposition will be supporting this bill to the select committee, because it covers some important issues. The Basel convention and the Rotterdam convention are matters that have been around for some time. The Basel Convention was signed way back in 1992, and the Rotterdam convention in 1998. The Stockholm convention is rather more recent, with New Zealand signing it in 2001. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe issues are important ones, and they do need to be dealt with carefully by the select committees that deal with them, because there is the potential to get things a bit wrong. It is not simply a matter of ratifying these conventions but of making sure that New Zealand\u2019s law complies with them. One of the first things I would recommend to the Government is to make sure it sends both this bill and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill to the same select committee. I do not know whether the Government is planning to do that, because I did not hear the Minister who gave the first reading speech on this bill mention that both bills would go to the same committee, although he mentioned the amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me explain why I think that is quite important. The purpose of the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill is \u201Cto enable New Zealand to give better effect to its international obligations to restrict the exportation of certain goods.\u201D So the purpose of the bill we are debating right now relates only to restricting the exportation of certain goods. However, clause 6 defines what the international obligations for New Zealand mean. Members should remember that the purpose of the bill is to give effect to those international obligations. If we look at the interpretation of international obligation, we see that the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants includes all the documents that are, or will become, binding in New Zealand. That, in this bill, is the interpretation of our international obligations. Quite clearly, this bill does not give effect to all of our international obligations under the Stockholm convention. I hope the Minister is listening to this, because it is quite important. I do not know whether he has even read the bill, but if he does read his Government\u2019s bill he will see that the interpretation clause states that the legislation will enable New Zealand to implement the requirements of all the documents that are part of the Stockholm convention. They will become binding on New Zealand. This bill does not do that. The purpose clause does not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe should go back to the explanatory note of the bill and have a look at what the Stockholm convention is all about, because I would not mind betting that most members of this House have never heard of it. I have to confess that I was not aware of it. The Government signed this one back in 2001, and I had to find out exactly what was covered by the Stockholm convention. I was aware of the Rotterdam convention and the Basel convention because they were signed under the last National Government, but I was not aware of the Stockholm convention. It is interesting to see that the Stockholm convention is not just about banning trade in certain pollutants. The Stockholm convention also includes requirements on countries that ratify it. It includes requirements on them to control internally the emissions of those pollutants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI come back to why this bill and the next bill on the Order Paper should be considered by the same select committee, because quite clearly this bill, according to its purpose, does not enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm convention. I make that very clear. This bill would not enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm convention. I believe it would enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam convention, the Basel convention, and probably even the convention around the control of transboundary movement and management of hazardous wastes in the South Pacific region, commonly known as the Waigani convention; but the Stockholm convention includes a domestic matter, not a trade matter. The Stockholm convention includes controlling the emissions of certain dangerous substances. This bill does not provide any mechanism for New Zealand to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think there is a need for the next bill on the Order Paper to receive its first reading. I have not looked at the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, but I presume that it is the legislation that will, in conjunction with the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, enable New Zealand to meet the requirements of the Stockholm convention. But, as it will affect what can happen domestically in New Zealand, not just our trade, the whole thing becomes much more complex. I believe that both these bills should go to the same select committee, and New Zealanders need to have time to have a decent look at them. We need to make sure that what is being slipped through in this legislation, which is something most New Zealanders are totally unaware of, is something that New Zealanders think makes sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EFor example, with regard to the list of dangerous substances that are covered by the Stockholm convention, is New Zealand satisfied that the emissions from those substances should be minimised or constrained in New Zealand? Is there a provision in the Stockholm convention to extend that list? What other substances of economic significance to New Zealand might be incorporated in that Stockholm convention list? If New Zealand ratifies this, what other mechanisms are there for New Zealand to satisfy itself that it is not locking itself into minimising emissions of some economically important substance to New Zealand? I think it is fair to say that the 10 substances covered by the Stockholm convention at present are the kinds of things that New Zealand would be pretty happy to minimise the emissions of. They are the kinds of things we have used in New Zealand extensively in the past. I am just trying to see whether I can find a list of them, but from memory they include things like dieldren and aldrin, which were used in New Zealand quite extensively in my youth and childhood. In fact, I have had plenty of dieldren and aldrin sprayed all over me because they are the active ingredients in sheep dip. All I can say is that if they are as evil as this Stockholm convention would have us believe, then I am obviously in for a pretty bleak future, because I have had a fair bit of contact with them at a pretty young age\u2014and for a number of years, what is more. I do not believe it has done me too much harm just yet, but one never knows what is around the corner with these things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThese are serious matters, and that is why I think it is in order for a parliamentary select committee to be able to assess whether New Zealand should ratify these conventions, especially the Stockholm convention, because that is a new one. New Zealanders have had less time to be aware of it. I believe that both these pieces of legislation, the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, should go to the same select committee. There should be focus on satisfying New Zealand that the list of substances involved in the Stockholm convention, which is not just about trade but about domestic emissions as well, is one that New Zealand feels is sensible, and that any mechanism for adding to that list is a mechanism that New Zealand is satisfied with. We must make sure that we do not get ourselves bound up in a treaty that we have ratified that may prevent us from using a substance of economic importance to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is important legislation. We do support it to the select committee, but it needs thorough examination. There will not be many members of this House who are very familiar with the four conventions that this legislation covers. They are important, but we need to make sure we satisfy ourselves that there are no fish hooks in any of them. That is National\u2019s position on this important legislation, and I trust the House will support its passage to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f11717d825c44b2baeb857596447138\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d19da6b6cf84ecda052fab65cd3d630\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00228c53752ac8fe496584512acdc851e7b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c53752ac8fe496584512acdc851e7b5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Further to a commitment made by the Hon Jim Sutton during question time, I seek leave to table a document that has information on the Government services trade position.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c35ed432bab04e5f843b96103fb15aa1\u0022\u003EImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221423a6b5f94c423483d570d9b57fa55b\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000257\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022553d82e243664b3ab07497f679228f67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022553d82e243664b3ab07497f679228f67\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I was grateful, as I am sure other members were, for that little bout of true confessions towards the end of the previous speaker\u2019s speech. It answered a number of questions that we have long pondered about, and I was grateful to him for his candour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMore seriously, turning to the bill, one of the difficulties we have in looking at this measure is that it is impossible to consider it without considering the next bill on the Order Paper, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. It would have been appropriate to have one debate where we could have dealt with the whole range of issues, rather than two somewhat staccato and artificial debates where we will go over the same material twice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b708813876148309ac8f6beb8d7ff72\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: But we will in the select committee. I expect so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fefd0d37df24c8bbd49923110b1fd56\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: That may well be so, and I expect it will be the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee that will have the privilege of dealing with both of those bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe other observation I want to make is that there is an irony in this debate occurring at this time. The House was in a flurry yesterday, and indeed, during question time today, about the way in which we consider international treaties and conventions. One might have been tempted to draw the conclusion that apart from anything else going on in the world at the moment, this was really one of the most critical issues facing the country. If that is the case, I observe the level of interest in this debate where we are doing precisely what various people have been arguing we ought to do as a matter of routine. I say that with no disrespect to the Minister, who gave his introductory speech in a moderately perfunctory way about the provisions of the Rotterdam convention, the Stockholm convention, the Waigani convention, the Basel convention, and various others in such a sense that implied we all knew intimately every last detail of them, and we are pretending that we do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhat we will do is send those measures to a select committee where they will be considered. There is clearly no objection to them. In fact, the select committee has already reported that the Government ought to proceed with the measures. But this is the sort of regime we would get into if we routinely considered every international treaty and agreement that came before the House. We would salve our consciences that we were doing a good and noble job. The people who are listening to this debate, who are observing it, would simply scratch their heads and ask: \u201CWhat are they wasting their time on now?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ENone the less, these are important issues and I am not minimising their significance in any way. However, they are extremely technical matters that do need careful consideration, and that has been given by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee earlier and also by our officials and representatives overseas, in terms of the negotiations that have taken place leading to the finalisation of these agreements. So what we have in the House is the rubber stamp, in effect, and I say that in the most positive sense. This is the ending of the process, rather than the commencement of it in terms of some profound consideration of our international treaty-making responsibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EHaving said that, issues will be raised by the specific provisions of each of those conventions, which two groups will want to have an interest in: firstly, the domestic parties that might be affected by the provisions; and secondly, there will also be groups that will have an interest in terms of, shall I say, the legal issues in terms of compliance and other things that may well flow from this in the domestic environment. I am not minimising the relevance of select committee consideration. I am simply making the observation that there is an irony, given our high-blown moral integrity about the need for careful consideration of international treaties, and the way in which we are giving effect to it by this debate this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249395aa7253345189fdf80f12fe0699a\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re changing the law here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c6704be6d54b9c9e559626462dfb46\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: We certainly are changing the law. We are recognising that changes to New Zealand law are required in relation to those international agreements. My point though, is somewhat ironic. [Interruption] I am sure it would be, but then I would not have expected anything different. But given those people who argue that every single agreement and treaty ought to come before Parliament and be ratified in this way, I would have thought those same people might be here taking a vigorous part in the debate this afternoon, and I observe no more than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee expects to have these bills referred to it. As chair of that committee, my intention would be that we would consider them in tandem because the measures do flow one from the other. This bill takes a broad overview in terms of the three or four agreements that are mentioned. The subsequent bill, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, specifically deals with provisions relating to the Stockholm convention that the earlier speaker referred to. These matters are not controversial. I do not imagine that they will arouse a huge degree of public lather. However, there will be matters that people will want to consider as part of them. That will be appropriate, and I hope we are able to deal with them relatively quickly, and get them back to the House and passed before too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00226422aacfaa6d462fba82b7650de98212\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226422aacfaa6d462fba82b7650de98212\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will support the forwarding of this legislation to the select committee. However, I do take the point raised by the previous speaker, and I am confident that I will be followed in this debate by Keith Locke, who will speak at great length on the international treaties contained in this legislation. He will tell the House how important it is for us to consider all treaties legislation and will take his full 10 minutes to explain each one of those particular conventions, which most of us have very little idea of whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EHowever, looking at this from an analytical viewpoint, we have before us a bill that is 18 pages long. The first 12 pages are an introduction. I am just trying to understand this legislation. The first page tells us nothing, and the second and third pages are all interpretation. By the time we get to the fourth page we discover that all the bill does is state that it entitles the Government to do things by way of Order in Council. It does not tell us anything else about what is in the bill. I am trying to find out what it is we are sending to the select committee, but this bill does not tell us. All it states is that the Government can do all sorts of things by Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI have a great dislike of things being done by Order in Council. It goes against anyone\u2019s legal training. It goes against anyone\u2019s support for parliamentary democracy that we leave things to be done by some bureaucrat somewhere, who puts a piece of paper under a Minister\u2019s nose and says: \u201CThis is fine. Nothing controversial here.\u201D The Minister sends it on, and then we have a long debate on it in the House when something does go wrong. This bill does not tell us anything, and I will not waste the time of the House on it any further. I wish the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee good luck, and perhaps when the bill comes back we will all know something more about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00224e610a547c084e098c06d3fc01376bce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e610a547c084e098c06d3fc01376bce\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Like Mr Dunne, I rise with intense enthusiasm. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in what is necessarily a narrow but technical issue and an important piece of legislation. This bill has been introduced to enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure for Certain Hazardous Chemicals and Pesticides in International Trade. Together with certain amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, it will also enable the ratification of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. New Zealand signed the Rotterdam convention on 11 September 1998. This convention requires information to be exchanged between parties about trade and hazardous chemicals before any trade takes place. Once parties are informed of the potential trade, and their attention is drawn to any related health or environmental risks, they may consent to importation with or without conditions, or not consent to the trade at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EThe convention currently lists 31 chemicals and pesticides for which all parties must notify import requirements. Its scope extends to controlling exports and notifying an international secretariat of all additional chemicals currently banned or severely restricted at the national level, which in New Zealand amounts to approximately 100 substances. I reiterate the point made by my colleague the Hon John Tamihere, in whose name the bill sits, that the costs to the economy of the measures that arise from export controls are expected to be nil, based on the current absence of exports. New Zealand signed the Stockholm convention on 23 May 2001. This convention seeks to protect human health and the environment by banning the production, use, or trial, of certain persistent organic pollutants. These persistent organic pollutants are highly toxic. These pollutants can accumulate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec1d1631fd4472dbcdc130716858977\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Has there been research about that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296e6726bf7354354a7aac21b9bfae11d\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: And when I say that I talk of persistent organic pollutants, I must say that I do not refer to the ACT party, although the description may well be apt. These pollutants can accumulate in living tissues and pose a threat to the quality of food, particularly meat products\u2014in which I know Mr Hide has a high degree of interest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAgain the costs to the economy are expected to be nil, based on current use and trade, whereas, as for the Rotterdam convention, we will need to have the controls in place in case there should be such exports in the future. I commend the Minister\u2019s management of this bill. I acknowledge Mr Dunne\u2019s points about the level of enthusiasm with which the House deals with legislation like this. I look forward to Mr Ardern\u2019s contribution, which, as always, will be highly valued, and expert, and I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022a645f06b34974aa786b2e87a049845d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a645f06b34974aa786b2e87a049845d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I was amused that in the closing comments from Mr Clayton Cosgrove he wanted to congratulate the Minister on the management of this legislation. I refer him to the explanatory note of this bill we are to consider, and ask him to read it very carefully. The House should take note. It says that the enactment of this bill will enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in September 2002. By my calculations September 2002 was about a good 6 months ago, and the enactment of this legislation will enable the Government to do something 6 months ago. If that is what Mr Clayton Cosgrove says is great management of legislation, I say it is a truly Houdini act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI do, though, want to make a serious contribution, not because I am an expert on any of those conventions, but I have spent a great deal of time, both as a Minister, and chair of the legislation on hazardous substances, on these issues. First, I want to say that National welcomes an international approach to the regulatory environment for chemicals. One of the shocks I had in the process of addressing some of these issues was to find out just how many different chemicals are used, and pivotal to the New Zealand economy. Under that new hazardous substances and new organisms legislation we already have over 48,000 different chemicals registered. The idea that we as a country of 4 million people can have a rigorous system to ensure that they are not a danger to the health and safety of our population is simply not correct. In a global economy we need to take a global approach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second reason we need that sort of global approach is that our air and our sea, particularly, are truly global resources. If one country does it, fine; if others do it poorly, then we all pay the price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESome of the motivation behind the conventions that we seek to ratify through this Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill is around the concern of dumping dangerous chemicals, and ratbag regimes. There have been a large number of tragedies where First World countries with dangerous chemicals, and that are keen for cash, have sold them off to ratbag regimes, and they have been stored, and have been a danger to both the populations and to the environment of those countries. So the core value behind this bill and those conventions is to say that we need to have some rules about that. For instance, in my own area at Mapua and Nelson we had a large number of chemicals stored, and it would have been very easy to put them on a boat and ship them off to some ratbag regime, where they would present a danger to someone else\u2019s health. While that might be financially advantageous for New Zealand and for that company, it would certainly be to the world\u2019s detriment. That is why we have these sorts of conventions, and New Zealand should be part of those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also have a challenge for the Government. Huge compliance costs are associated with the labelling of chemicals. At the World Summit on Sustainable Development, in Johannesburg, there was the report on the end of the trial on the international labelling regime. It just makes such common sense, when a country is using a particular chemical, that the world community\u2014Europe, the United States, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada\u2014actually adopt a common labelling regime, rather than every single country developing its own rules. There has been a good international standard developed, and I urge the Government to adopt that as quickly as possible, because it makes good sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere are legitimate issues around these two bills that we are debating this afternoon, with regard to compliance costs. That will be one of the issues that National members will be looking to. In meeting those environmental objectives, quite properly, we will be making sure that as well as taking account of health and safety issues, New Zealand companies are taking a responsible approach to the use of such chemicals in a way that minimises the cost for business, because that makes sense for our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational will support the introduction of this bill. We will be asking a series of questions at the select committee about its operation. We do have some concerns about the broadness of the export controls that may be required to do it, but the principle behind the bill and those conventions is sound.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00220089f733a522438d9c4d1f2443cf8890\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220089f733a522438d9c4d1f2443cf8890\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this bill, as was stated when our Minister introduced the bill just a short while ago. This bill is related to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee has also closely examined the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions. I am pleased that this bill is progressing through the House, and I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00228d2de5a496824c13a28b8e2ac6c0f681\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d2de5a496824c13a28b8e2ac6c0f681\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Once again Jill Pettis has made an erudite and insightful contribution to a debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221bfb5e3ae1e04612bcf1d25d91261aee\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: At least I win my seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60d56850ac140c995b19265377619f0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and I was thanking her for that contribution. I should point out that the ACT party will be voting to send these two bills that work together to the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dfc2af9ebf04a48a1022070ecb2bb95\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How many of them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e8d52c5958458aace5575a4a45369c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Seven of them will be voting today. But I want to pick up on a point that Clayton Cosgrove raised in saying that the Minister, the Hon John Tamihere, had done such a fine job in managing this bill\u2019s process. My colleague on this side of the House, Dr Nick Smith, queried that. I think that John Tamihere might have done a great job, because here is the point: we are passing this bill so that we can ratify the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in September 2002. It is now February 2003, and I have to hand it to John Tamihere\u2014if he pulled all that off. So, here is my first question for the Minister. Did we sign those conventions in September 2002? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022191890fd02644c6e951863bc3d4ea8c1\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: We ask the questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226354f7bcc01042e58dc80ec9e6a118be\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I will ask Jill Pettis. Did the Government sign those conventions in 2002? Did it ratify them? Here is Marian Hobbs to tell us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f64d6f04b8944c9b7657e1e6f24ad00\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: I have just come into the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6495c925d2496eb72d2c26365bead0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: We did not ratify them in 2002, so when are we going to ratify them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dcc8bc06d29468cb927dc65b37d326b\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: As soon as we have the bill passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dfbce9588a64de5b99f8d175587ce77\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Ah! [Interruption] No, no. This is an important point, because when a Minister brings a bill to the House and says: \u201CWe have to pass this so we can ratify two conventions in September 2002.\u201D, members on this side of the House say: \u201CSay that again?\u201D. We think that that is toying with the House, because clearly the reason is wrong. The Minister for the Environment has now explained that the management of Mr Tamihere has not been all that it might have been, or all that Mr Clayton Cosgrove has cracked it up to be. [Interruption] She did not say that; I am saying that. She said that we failed to ratify the conventions back in September 2002. That was what the Minister said, was it not? We failed to ratify them in 2002 because this legislation had not been passed. But Mr Clayton Cosgrove got up there\u2014typical of Labour\u2019s spin\u2014and said that Mr John Tamihere had done a great job. But by their own purpose for this bill, he actually failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003ESo now we hear, and I am getting the picture now, that we are busy passing this legislation because we failed to ratify in September last year. Did anyone hear the Minister explain that, in his introductory speech? Here again are the Opposition members doing their job\u2014calling this Government to account. I ask the honourable member John Tamihere whether he read this introduction where it says \u201Cthe purpose\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc0f57aafb843fd89aba6e711ae980a\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is the member yielding?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022570399e7b849451da3606368001fa5d5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think the member is yielding at all. That is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260e826573400490b838d591dbc43a8d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think it might be helpful, and I seek leave, for the Minister to give an explanation about the date and timing as set out in the explanatory note. I think it would be helpful for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201143eac073b4c8887fc399522ea58fe\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can seek leave on his own behalf if he so wishes; other members cannot do it for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ee01b253f7b47d88cf3fe4abc8482db\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for the Government to provide an explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225175eb355cf45ddad231bd7927b133c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I call the honourable member Rodney Hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad703e4f13b04ca3a547d355791f4f0e\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the Speaker pointing out that if the Minister, who failed to explain these dates in his introductory speech, wanted to explain it to this House, he does not need me to yield; all he needs to do is to seek leave and explain it. So when I have finished my speech, the Minister can stand up and make this correction. But I do make the point: it is trifling with the House to come down here and say that we have to pass this bill so that we can ratify something that clearly we could not have ratified because the bill was not passed at that time. I ask the Minister whether he had read that before his speech today. There is silence. We know that the reason there is silence is that he had not read it. He had not bothered to read the reason we are passing this jolly bill so that he could explain it to the House. He came along with the stuff that his officials fed to him, and expects everyone else to go along with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThey clearly wrote that speech before September 2002, expecting that the Minister would have had it done. They are rummaging around there because the Government does not know what bill it is going to pass, and they pulled out the speech they had prepared for the Minister. He walked down and gave that speech, and it is clearly at least 6 months out of date. I say to the Minister that if he is to succeed, he had better get a bit more up to date than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022889de44a223b4624997f985078a87140\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s more successful than you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd28199a1f694764aab395f58b227ce1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I understand from Mr Cosgrove, who also read his speech and was talking about these conventions, and all the rest of it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244cb3918fdfe45d08fa9f85dfc0bf010\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the member explain it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223277db919ecf477bbae0e65cad418c80\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Clayton Cosgrove whether he could explain why the Government is passing the bill now, when it was meant to ratify something in September last year. I think the answer is no. Mr Cosgrove is sitting here, having been fed the same notes from the officials. He got up and explained this, then said a curious thing. He said that it was to stop these toxic chemicals. We do have an issue with organochlorines, which this bill deals with, because they are persistent in the environment, but I ask Mr Clayton Cosgrove why he thinks they are toxic. Why does he think that organochlorines are toxic, and what are they toxic to? There is complete silence. That member gets up in the House, talks about these chemicals, and says that they are toxic, and when I ask him what they are toxic to, he cannot explain. So now we have, already, on the first reading of this bill, a failure by the Government to make the most obvious points, which are all on the first page of the explanatory note. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI point out to Government members that the concern we have with these chemicals is their persistence in the environment, not their toxicity. The Greens understand that. The ACT party understands that. I expect the Government to do a bit better job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMy final question\u2014and I am so pleased that John Tamihere has indicated a willingness to seek leave to give the explanation he failed to give in his first reading speech\u2014is: given that the Government did not ratify the conventions at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in September 2002, when is it intending to ratify these conventions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00224e19d75301374070a439480ff0c9565f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e19d75301374070a439480ff0c9565f\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister for Land Information):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193, 196(1)(b), and 196(1)(c), and that the committee be instructed to report back to this House by 8 May 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002264a6285fb30745438d651f6a890beb45\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms(Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002261e8585557cc48639be56fe085f243a7\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002213cfa1a69e204045990dcf60bcb8a0cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213cfa1a69e204045990dcf60bcb8a0cf\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for consideration, with an instruction that the committee report back to the House by 8 May 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, together with certain amendments to the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, will enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. The purpose of the Stockholm convention is to protect human health and the environment from persistent organic pollutant chemicals\u2014or \u201CPOPs\u201D, as they are commonly referred to; and that is not affectionately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ENew Zealand became a signatory to the Stockholm convention on 23 May 2001. The convention will come into force, once the 50th country ratifies. We are very close to having that number of countries ratifying. I think we are up to the late 40s, and it is this Government\u2019s intention that New Zealand become a ratified party as soon as practicable. Between 23 May 2001 and today, these two conventions\u2014the Stockholm and Rotterdam conventions\u2014were considered by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. The committee found that there were significant advantages, and no disadvantages, to New Zealand ratifying the two conventions. So already we have been through a select committee process that has looked at the conventions. We have weighed up advantages and disadvantages, and said: \u201CLet\u2019s go to it.\u201D, and having been given that advice from the committee, we are now doing the necessary amendments to the legislation in order that we are able to ratify the conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThis bill is necessary, because the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, while providing a general framework for compliance with the Stockholm convention\u2019s requirements, does not guarantee that prohibitions on the import, use, and manufacture of persistent organic pollutants will be put in place and maintained, as required by the convention. Therefore, an amendment to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act is needed to prohibit, as a matter of course, the import, manufacture, and use of the persistent organic pollutant substances listed in the convention. This bill prohibits the manufacture, import, or use, with specific exemptions, of the 10 persistent organic pollutant substances currently listed in the Stockholm convention. As the Minister in the previous debate mentioned, the 10 chemicals are: aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, toxaphene, and polychlorinated biphenyls. Each chemical has the characteristics of being environmentally persistent, of being toxic, of being bioaccumulative, and of being able to be transported by the movement of air, water, and migratory species to places far from their original point of release. With the exception of small quantities of polychlorinated biphenyls still in use by the electrical sector in New Zealand, and subjected to a regulated phase-out timetable, New Zealand does not use these toxic and bioaccumulative chemicals, and has no need of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ENew Zealand intends to implement the Stockholm convention fully. The benefits of ratifying the convention and implementing it through this bill include the protection of the health of New Zealanders now and in the future by reducing exposure to persistent organic pollutants; safeguarding the quality of food, especially meat and dairy products; strengthening and protecting New Zealand\u2019s clean, green image; and addressing persistent organic pollutant chemical stockpiles, wastes, and contaminated sites\u2014orphan, or otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E I note that a parallel bill, the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, which gives effect to the export prohibition requirements of the Stockholm convention, has been introduced and given a first reading by my colleague the Hon John Tamihere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EI will now briefly outline the key provisions of the present bill, which provides amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. As I noted earlier, the main purpose of this bill is to provide for the absolute prohibition of the manufacture, import, or use of persistent organic pollutants in Annex A and Annex B of the Stockholm convention, unless specific exemptions have been granted in accordance with that convention. All prohibited chemicals and any exemptions, together with the expiry dates, are recorded in new schedule 2A of the bill. In fact, members will see that the bill is largely made up of annexures and schedules. The only specific exemption granted is for the continued use, for a limited time, of polychlorinated biphenyls already approved under the Toxic Substances Regulations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThere are three further more general exemptions provided for in the Stockholm convention that apply to each persistent organic pollutant chemical. The Environmental Risk Management Authority can approve small amounts of a persistent organic pollutant chemical to be imported or manufactured in containment\u2014firstly, for use as analytical standards, and, secondly, for research in a laboratory. The third exemption provides for the importation of persistent organic pollutants for the purpose of environmentally sound disposal; and I understand that is if somebody from the Pacific Islands wanted to bring material over to us. This will enable a treatment service to operate in New Zealand and import persistent organic pollutant chemical waste for the purpose of environmentally sound destruction disposal. Where the manufacture, import, or use of a persistent organic pollutant chemical is prohibited in New Zealand\u2014that is, there are no exempted uses recorded in new schedule 2A, or an exempted-use has expired\u2014the Environmental Risk Management Authority can issue a direction requiring any amounts of the substance already in New Zealand to be disposed of in an environmentally sound manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EBecause additional substances may be added to the annexures of the Stockholm convention\u2014this was a point Dr Lockwood Smith was making\u2014the bill contains an Order in Council mechanism enabling persistent organic pollutant chemicals that are added to the convention, to be included in new schedule 2A of the hazardous substances legislation. Any exemptions permitted by the convention, which New Zealand decides to adopt, can also be added. This mechanism also allows the Environmental Risk Management Authority to approve the import and manufacture of a persistent organic pollutant for use during a foreseeable emergency\u2014such as the use of DDT in the event of a malaria outbreak. Any such emergency use must, however, be approved in accordance with the rules of the Stockholm convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, together with certain amendments to the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, will enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm convention. We did want to do this at Johannesburg, but because of the weight of legislation going through the House we did not meet our commitments to get the bill through in the legislative timetable. I am quite sad about that. However, New Zealand will be able to ratify the convention and be within the first 50 nations to do so. In company with the global community, New Zealand will act responsibly. We will commit to eliminate the use of persistent organic pollutant substances, to meet other Stockholm convention obligations, thereby protecting the health of New Zealanders and strengthening New Zealand\u2019s image. I wish to emphasise that the Stockholm convention enjoys an almost unparalleled level of support among United Nation countries. It is supported by the chemical industry and by the full spectrum of non-governmental organisations concerned with the safe use of chemicals, the protection of human health, and the environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EIt is hoped that the passage of this bill and of the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill will proceed expeditiously through the House so we can ratify the convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022b23dd64cf8c74a5fa21419617fac038c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b23dd64cf8c74a5fa21419617fac038c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E National members will be supporting the referral of this bill to a select committee, and we welcome the fact that the two bills that are closely related will both be dealt with by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to challenge the Minister on a number of issues of process that are quite untidy and sloppy. Again, the first is the issue of timing. I think it reasonable to expect that when bills come before this House, there is some accuracy associated with them. With both this bill and the previous bill debated by the House, we have an oxymoron on the very first page. The second paragraph of this bill states: \u201CThe enactment of the Bill (together with certain amendments to the Import Control Act 1988) will enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm Convention before or at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in August-September 2002.\u201D That is a nonsense. How can the Minister come to this House, 6 months later, and say that that is what the Government will do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd5812decb6e443696086afa57165640\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Because the bill was sitting waiting and ready to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a45eb2d0a8f40bd9533b8777ceba956\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, is it not too much to ask\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6061c3d3e1f414395b4c9e2c520bf7e\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down and keep it rocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220985be4dafa5436181ceff4707b93b30\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member for Dunedin South, Mr Benson-Pope, wants to stand up for the great parliamentary process, but tells me not to bother reading it. The fact that the bill is a bloody nonsense\u2014excuse my French\u2014should have no impact at all; we should just forget about it! Frankly, I would be being derelict in my duties as a member of Parliament. If the bill presented to the House is a nonsense, our duty is to point that out and hold the Government to account. It is not too much to expect that a bill presented before the House makes some logical sense, and this one does not. Further than that, I wonder whether the member, Mr Benson-Pope, has read the regulatory impact statement that is provided in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e812cb4709b74e14b2da268b627cc349\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen the one on Meridian.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258cf4aaf09b24543b286150d4df50878\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member does not want to talk about the bill; he wants to talk about everything else. He wants to talk about irrelevancies, and he wants to get into personality attacks\u2014as he did yesterday. I asked him to address the bill before the House, and I ask him whether he has read the regulatory impact statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436ca45777e3469aabac894ef8df8f24\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: It is my duty. Don\u2019t waste your time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bebc51e099a4f6198ff9255c814e5e5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: If the member had bothered to do his job and read the regulatory impact statement contained in this bill, he would know that it is a nonsense. He would know what the statement was meant to do. As members would well know, the whole purpose of regulatory impact statements is to try to ensure that costs of compliance are addressed, and are not a total nonsense. The analysis of benefits and costs is grossly deficient, and we on this side of the House say it is simply not good enough. If the process of regulatory impact statements is just going to produce that sort of garbage, all we are doing is bowling over trees for no good purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to challenge the Minister further on timing, because this Minister has a bad habit. Time after time we are seeing timetables slip behind in important environmental areas. Take the Resource Management Amendment Bill, which we were promised would be dealt with in October 2001. October 2001 came and went. The Minister responsible for that bill then told us it would be passed in October last year. October 2002 came and went. The reason the Minister has given for the delays on the Resource Management Amendment Bill is that there is no House time. Anybody who knows some of the issues associated with resource management knows that that bill has a far higher priority than this one. I want to know why the Minister would put this bill as her No. 1 legislative priority, albeit it\u2014like the Resource Management Amendment Bill\u2014is months and years late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill and the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants are sound and well-based conventions. I made a point earlier with regard to chemicals in New Zealand that are outdated and need to be disposed of. There are shocking stories of shonky businesses buying up dangerous chemicals, taking them out on the high seas, and tipping them overboard. Every single New Zealander, and every citizen of this globe, knows that that sort of conduct is totally irresponsible, and that we need conventions like the Stockholm convention to be able to deal to that sort of behaviour and ensure the proper management of such chemicals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe have a concern that we want to explore with officials in the select committee, and that is the provisions that allow the Cabinet, by Order in Council, to add to the list of prohibited chemicals provided for in schedule 2. We do not have a difficulty with those that are specifically listed in schedule 2, but if, for instance, a new chemical\u2014a pesticide or an industrial chemical\u2014is going to be added to the list of prohibited chemicals, we need to be careful that there is a proper process around it. There needs to be some consultation, and we need to be satisfied that there will be a thorough process around adding those chemicals to the schedule and to this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo National members say yes, good job, but we need to have clear rules around those particularly dangerous chemicals and persistent organic pollutants\u2014because they are toxic and biocumulative, and because they are persistent. We think this is a pretty good framework for doing it, but we wish to pursue some fine points in the select committee and make sure that we get it right. I challenge the next member of the Government to provide some explanation for the completely illogical statement on page one of the bill. I cannot believe any Minister would want to come to the House with such a statement, which, given its timing, is a nonsense\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00222b21373086444b9ba4640a554ca8cd04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b21373086444b9ba4640a554ca8cd04\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future will be supporting this bill going to the select committee. As we have heard, the two bills tie in together. This is really just dealing with the Stockholm Convention aspect of the bill, and most things have already been said about it. Our gallant leader, the Hon Peter Dunne, will chair that committee, and so I have no doubt that we will have his normal common sense approach as the committee deals with all the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00225045925e88214804897861d7d03d874e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225045925e88214804897861d7d03d874e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As I read this bill, look at the time it has spent on the Order Paper, and see just what it will achieve, I think we have to be concerned about the way the Government handles its legislative programme. This bill has been on the Order Paper since 21 May 2002, as was the previous bill. We are not taking terribly long in the first reading to move it on to the select committee, and one wonders why 20 or 30 minutes were not allocated 10 months ago to move this bill along. If this bill is important, it should have been moved on; if it is not important, why are we bothering with it? The Government really does not seem to know what it is doing when it comes to legislation before this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI look at some of the aspects set out in the explanatory note. They state that there are \u201Cno major disadvantages to the Stockholm convention entering into force for New Zealand.\u201D We read statements such as: \u201CIt has been unlawful to use POP pesticides for agricultural or horticultural purposes since the Pesticides Board finally deregistered such uses in 1989.\u201D I speak mainly as a lawyer, not a farmer, but all I can say is that if these things are illegal now, why do we need this bill to do something that is already the case? What is the point of this legislation? Is this Government so short of legislation that we now have to spend time, some 10 months later, as a fill-in job, because the Government has nothing better for this House to do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI wonder what the costs will be. The explanatory note states: \u201CNo additional costs will be imposed as a consequence of the proposed legislative amendment.\u201D But then it states: \u201CEconomic costs to the public sector for controls on import, use, and export have been estimated as follows: Ministry for the Environment NZ$0.024 million\u2026Secretariat NZ$0.018 million\u2026\u201D. We cannot get away without having some bureaucracy being created by this Government, but the note further states: \u201CCosts to the economy of measures aimed at import, use, and export controls are expected to be $0, based on the current lack of use and trade.\u201D So we are passing legislation for something that seems to be illegal. \u201CUse and trade\u201D are currently lacking, but we will spend the House\u2019s time on it and send it to the select committee. If it is that simple a measure, why has it taken so long for this Government to bring it before the House? We in New Zealand First do not intend to delay it any more. We look forward to the report of the select committee in due course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002266c86913a09949869614c75472232f44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002266c86913a09949869614c75472232f44\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to be so bold as to offer the member who has just resumed his seat a little bit of advice. If his wish is to have a legislative procedure progressed rapidly, he can assist that process by sitting down quickly after the beginning of his speech, rather than using the full 10 minutes he is entitled to. I certainly intend to follow my own advice on that very point, because the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill should be progressed as rapidly as possible. I support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022697f441cf3184d3a83702d0540cdf924\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022697f441cf3184d3a83702d0540cdf924\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Ruth Dyson for her short contribution. We have to worry: fresh from victories in managing Television New Zealand, \u201Cboo-boo\u201D turns up with a high-sounding bill\u2014the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. This is what the general policy statement says, and I ask Paul Swain to reflect on these words: \u201CThe enactment of the Bill ... will enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm Convention before or at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in August-September 2002.\u201D The Minister is interjecting and getting all excited; I can imagine her concern. The legislative programme failed because, obviously, the Government could not ratify the convention in August-September 2002\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225388f5eb7d454d838ff690cb510c5c72\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. I refer members to Speaker\u2019s rulings 51/5(3): \u201Ca running commentary of interjection is out of order;\u2019\u2019. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282a47ecbf8154597a942dd15272b6bbd\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker, but I do not need any protection from Marian Hobbs. In fact, I am quite pleased to agitate her and get her to do something. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe other point I want to make is that in her speech to this great nation that we all inhabit, the Prime Minister said we had a very full legislative programme. Yet I remind Dr Nick Smith that here we are in the second week of this Parliament, and what do we have? We have a bill before us that should have been passed before August-September 2002. We look down the Order Paper to what this Government has been promising the people of New Zealand in terms of the amendment to the Resource Management Act, and we see that it just sits out there. Nothing happens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt might upset Marian Hobbs that members of the Opposition want to point out the failure of this Government\u2019s legislative programme, its failure to do something positive for the economy, and instead its grand gestures\u2014as my colleague Mr Dail Jones has pointed out\u2014that take up Parliament\u2019s time. We will take the opportunities to hold this Government to account\u2014not just for its policies but also for the handling of its legislative programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275683565e6164c918a1c2ef891281dc1\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: ACT should hold its members to account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3be7671f2224c498422badebf33c745\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: David Benson-Pope is sitting over there getting excited, but why does this Government not give some priority to bringing legislation to this House that will be of benefit to New Zealanders\u2014something that Government members have been talking about over the summer break\u2014rather than legislation that was not important last year? Here we are in the second week back in Parliament after the summer break, and this bill is what the Government brings into the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhen members of the Government bring legislation to the House, they should explain what is going on\u2014both good and bad. They should not rely on the spin that comes out of the ninth floor of the Beehive to explain everything away. The Minister must try to treat this House with the dignity it deserves\u2014that is, with an explanation why this bill was not passed last year. The second paragraph on page 1 of the explanatory note states that it was supposed to be passed before August-September 2002\u2014so that Ministers could look good at the World Summit on Sustainable Development. Clearly, that time has passed, and even the great Helen Clark cannot take us back there yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022aeb40888c517478faf007cc075969c0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aeb40888c517478faf007cc075969c0f\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E Unlike some other members of the House, the Green Party believes that these two bills do deal with serious and important issues, and that we ought to be debating the content rather than the trivia. Obviously, the Green Party supports these two pieces of legislation, which are needed to ratify the Stockholm convention, the Rotterdam convention, and to enforce the Basel convention and the Waigani convention, which New Zealand has already ratified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe 10 persistent organic pollutants outlawed by the Stockholm convention are extremely hazardous and extremely persistent. Despite not having been used in pastoral farming since the 1970s, DDT still contaminates soil in Canterbury to the extent that it is unacceptable in some of the produce that is grown there. Environmentalists have been agitating for many years for those materials to be outlawed, and it is good to see it happen. Of course, it will make no immediate difference in practice, because they are not currently used. But until there is a law that actually prevents them from being used, the convention is not being implemented and cannot be ratified. These two bills provide mechanisms, and I want to deal with the two bills together. The House is dealing with them side by side and the select committee is dealing with them side by side, so I am not going to confine myself totally to the second of the two bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe bills provide mechanisms to control the movement of hazardous substances as specified by those international conventions, but they still allow the export of hazardous and other wastes, if approved by the Minister of Customs, under certain conditions, in accord with the Basel convention. The problem is that the Basel convention itself is an inadequate tool for ensuring the environmentally sound management of wastes, which is the supposed objective of the convention, because it actually regulates and legitimises trade, rather than stopping it. It allows the trans-boundary movement of wastes from industrially developed to industrially less developed nations. Yet the latter countries generally have neither the technical capacity nor the regulatory provisions to ensure environmentally sound management of those wastes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Basel convention was adopted in 1989, although New Zealand did not ratify it until 1994. It was seen as a means of legitimising the waste trade, rather than restricting it. As a result many European and developing countries negotiated and passed in 1994, under the convention, the Basel ban, despite opposition from the USA, Canada, Australia, and international chambers of commerce and industry organisations. That ban prohibited all exports of hazardous waste from OECD countries to non-OECD countries. To come into force of law, the Basel ban requires 62 parties to ratify it. As of last month only 35 parties had done so. New Zealand has not ratified the Basel ban, but instead we are one of the countries that has supported a study that is actually a vehicle for continuing the questioning of the efficacy and the viability of the ban. New Zealand is actually trying to undermine the ban so that non-OECD countries will continue to be recipients of wastes from the industrially developed world\u2014basically to continue to be our hole in the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIn reply to an oral question last December, the Minister stated that some non-OECD countries have perfectly sound disposal facilities. When I further asked what monitoring we do of the hazardous wastes we export, the ways they are treated, and the environmental and health effects, the Hon Pete Hodgson, answering on behalf of the Minister for the Environment, was not able to say. Let me tell the House what I found when I followed up with some written questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ENew Zealand exports hazardous wastes to the Philippines as well as to several OECD countries. The receiving facility in the Philippines has been assessed for its capacity to manage the materials in an environmentally sound manner, and tracking documents confirm that it has been received there. So that looks very good on the face of it. The Philippines obtains all of its lead for car batteries from recycling imported used lead acid batteries. However, the official licence facility contracts most of the work out to unlicensed, unregulated, backyard, and home-kitchen operators, which leads to massive exposure of people and the environment to highly toxic lead. Children of battery workers have been tested at five times the blood lead level that is associated with reduced intelligence. Sulphuric acid from batteries is dumped into streams. Backyard smelters do not filter emissions. Soil lead has been measured in the Philippines at 26,000 parts per million, which compares with 140 parts per million around smelters in Europe. We have moved past the time when such environmentally unsound waste management is acceptable in our own countries, and we should be supporting measures to protect non-OECD countries from pressure to be our dumping ground, by ratifying the Basel ban. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EInstead, New Zealand continues to support only the convention\u2014a legacy from the right-wing extremism of the 1980s and 1990s, which legitimised the waste trade. It is time to reassess this position. But, once again, the World Trade Organization trade rules have caused some concern that if we stopped sending hazardous waste to the Philippines, they might succeed with a complaint to the World Trade Organization. The bigger picture is that we should be arguing for a clear rule that international environmental treaties take precedence over trade rules under the World Trade Organization. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThese two bills are a good step forward, but I urge the Government to consider the wider issues involved under the Basel convention and to consider seriously ratifying the ban in order to protect the people and the environment of countries like the Philippines from the appalling practices that are happening there at the moment with our wastes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229040c5d40203456daecd93ec64aa991e\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E This is a good bill. This bill will enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm convention. By becoming a party to that convention, New Zealand will contribute to global efforts to protect human and animal health, and the environment. It is yet another example of this Government holding its head high on the world stage. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d942e3c726db4f54a33ad50243a11904\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (NZ National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. I recommend that it goes to the select committee for a number of reasons, but not for the reason that is obvious and that most have already spoken about\u2014that the Government have the ability to ratify the Stockholm convention by August-September 2003, because clearly that is going to be pretty hard to achieve. I congratulate Clayton Cosgrove on suggesting that I would have some learned comments to make on this, because he is absolutely right. Even the Rt Hon Helen Clark will struggle with the spin on being able to get this convention ratified in that time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI suggest that the underlying reason this bill has suddenly been given urgency by the Government to come up the Order Paper and be in the House today is so the Rt Hon Helen Clark can once again stand on another world stage as a signatory to something that will give her an opportunity to promote herself in a job beyond being the Prime Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe bill does a few things that I think are essential. Schedule 2 lists hazardous substances that should not be dumped, disposed of, or used willy-nilly in pastoral New Zealand. The one that particularly sticks out as far as I am concerned is DDT. As someone who has been involved in farming for a long time, I understand the reason that DDT was used extensively in the 1940s and 1950s. It was used to control grass grub, a highly invasive insect that used to wipe out pastures and drop production in pastoral farming by up to 50 percent at times. But there is an irony in the fact that the Green Party strongly supports this process. It was through the use of gene technology, and the development of pasture species able to resist insects like grass grub, that we have been able to move away, over years, from using some of these chemicals that were clearly detrimental, and still are. The residues are still there. They are still an issue in the dairy industry because they can be detected in milk and milk products, and create problems for our clean, green image in terms of exporting our products around the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI come back to the point that in this country we could have either extremists on the right or extremists on the left, given that the Green member spoke of extremists on the right, and this type of science and technology development would be stopped if we let them have their way. That would have meant that chemicals that are obviously not ideal would continue. As far as I can tell, and without a helluva lot of knowledge about them, on the surface the Stockholm and Rotterdam conventions seem to be a very well-principled concept. I suspect that most Western nations will sign up to that. But that is the reason this whole process should be subject to a very robust select committee process. I hope the Government resources that select committee with the scientific knowledge it will need to make a decision on this. The chemicals listed in the schedules, such as Aldrin and Dieldrin, were used extensively in farming in my youth. As far as I know they have had no detrimental effect on me, but who knows? There will be members on the other side of the House who will have a different view of that, I am sure. I would not be sure that some of those members have been on something much more toxic than these chemicals. But I can be sure that the use of those chemicals over the years has reduced substantially, because of technological advances. That is a good thing, and long may it continue. The clean, green image that we have in terms of our trade is an absolute essential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe other issue that has been raised in this bill, in the commentary, and in the research notes, and so forth, that I have that go with the bill is having consistency of labelling around the world. Different chemicals can have a different name in a different place. Nobody actually knows what is being talked about unless there is some consistency. I congratulate any moves that the Government may be taking in that regard, but I do have some concerns that cost may be loaded on to the end-users of these substances. There will be reasons that some of these substances should be used\u2014that is, medical reasons, and a whole range of other reasons. I ask the select committee to make sure that it gives fair time\u2014and that the Government gives the select committee the opportunity to have fair time\u2014to exploring some of those issues and making sure we do not have preservation at all costs and with no regard for business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe final point I would like to make, and this is very significant, relates to introducing a convention that bans the exporting or manufacturing of a listed number of substances and the connection between that and biosecurity. The fact is that there is an overlap in these things. We will intercept this at our borders, through customs, through our biosecurity checks, and through the personnel in the various departments that are involved, and detect these substances if they are coming in. If somebody wants to import them illegally, then that is how it will be found. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI hope that the Government recognises the importance of this particular interest in biosecurity, because up until this point in time there certainly has not been a great deal of evidence of it. We have breaches of our biosecurity all over the show, and it is not only by people who are illegally importing stuff. I have heard that as much as 800 tonne of raw meat products were intercepted. It is good that we intercepted that amount. But how much did we actually not catch at the borders? One has to wonder how much of this type of foreign substance\u2014if that is what we want to describe it as\u2014could be imported into this country, undetected, in a range of ways. I suggest to this Government that it should give some real teeth to biosecurity on a range of issues, but in particular to hazardous substances as this is the bill we are discussing today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI suggest to biosecurity Ministers\u2014there have been a number of them in this portfolio already\u2014that they go back and have a look at all the options there are for people to import hazardous substances, along with other types of biosecurity breach, and have a thorough investigation as to what might be done there. We are talking about an insurance policy here. In my view, the security of biosecurity is more important than any other type of security and it needs to be given the attention it deserves. I do not believe it is getting it at the moment. I certainly do not believe that the Minister\u2014the Minister for Trade Negotiations, the Minister for Rural Affairs, the Minister of Agriculture, and the \u201CMinister of This, That, and Everything Else\u2019\u2014can honestly give the time necessary for all these important portfolios. I know that the Minister is fairly earnest in his work, but he is not a miracle worker and he will not be able to do it. This Government needs to give the resources to those different areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the reasons the Government has decided that the legislation dealing with the prohibition of import, manufacture, or use of persistent organic pollutants is so important\u2014other than the fact that it is now about 6 months past the time by which the Government was to ratify the Stockholm convention\u2014one really struggles to find what the potential major breach was that brought this legislation to the House today for the debate that it is getting at the moment. The only conclusion I can come to is that it will give the Rt Hon Helen Clark an opportunity to travel overseas once more, stand on the world stage, present her credentials to the world in terms of a potential future job, once she finishes as the Prime Minister of New Zealand in a very short time, and take up some grand role where she can tour around and drink lattes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022837e077e902c4a6fa972bb5963568a1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022837e077e902c4a6fa972bb5963568a1a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this legislation. In terms of the timing, the sooner the two matters are sent to the select committee, the sooner we will be able to make the ratifications necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d279924f1a334443950326e8327a18f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d279924f1a334443950326e8327a18f0\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (NZ National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call on this bill because there are three important issues that I have picked up on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c53c7bc0229f4fd4b88aeb781f0fd5db\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What does your mother think?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b63bd4bfd5484fe4900cefaf86ff58e2\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure my mother would be distressed if she could read some of these things. [Interruption] I will explain very shortly. My mother is well read, and she worries about those sorts of things. I will tell the House of the three things that are of concern, not only to my mother, but, indeed, to a whole number of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe first thing that Parliament will want to consider is on page 2 of the explanatory note of the bill. In the paragraph headed \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D we find that parties are required to provide financial contributions. I carried on reading the bill, and I thought that I would find a clause that told Parliament what, specifically, that meant. If we are under an agreement\u2014a world agreement\u2014signed in Stockholm, one assumes, seeing as it is called the Stockholm convention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2639976547640e38649dae2586df502\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a worldwide tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7b86f99645474e93805dcb1c162189\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: What does that mean for New Zealand taxpayers? I would have thought that we would have heard an explanation of that, because we know in this country that although the Government\u2019s coffers are going to be quite full this year\u2014[Interruption] No, quite full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b40ed2549bc74a94aa1864074c70bb7c\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re going to be plump.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7ef2f3d7f3a4b418453f3694426cc53\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Indeed, it is estimated that the Minister\u2019s expectations will be fulfilled and more. The worry is that, in the next year or two, the slump in world commodity prices, the droughts that we are experiencing, the energy crisis, the possible loss of the America\u2019s Cup, and the possibility of a war in Iraq will impact on the Government\u2019s income. I ask the Government this: if those things come upon us in the next year, or two, or three, what does that mean with regard to the providing of financial contributions, as the parties are required to do? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a03a49e52dc74264a211499b6e323a93\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does \u201CBoo Boo\u201D know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df8b9b37199046f0b2f0f62a37d43fba\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot answer that question. I am not sure whether anyone in the House can. The Minister may well be able to. I would have seriously thought that the Minister would want to give quite an explanation about that aspect. Given that that explanation has not been made, I thought it was my responsibility to bring that to the attention of the House. I expect that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee will want to pay a whole lot of attention to that issue of providing financial contributions. That is point No. 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to draw to the House\u2019s attention is also in the paragraph headed \u201CStockholm Convention\u2019\u2019, in the explanatory note of the bill. Are members listening? It states: \u201C10 POPs\u201D. When I read that, I wondered why the Minister did not explain to us what \u201C10 POPs\u201D means. I thought it was quite extraordinary. I have seen all sorts of terminology and hieroglyphics used in this Parliament, but\u2014[Interruption] Yes, I do know what \u201C10 POPs\u201D means but we need to make sure that the public knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a5f60ecb7d41a688f190e20b711817\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0bdfb06607b48248db43c779d7bac8a\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: See? There is the problem. Here we have a member of Parliament who is listening to the debate and does not know what \u201C10 POPs\u201D means. Was it explained what \u201C10 POPs\u201D means?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f00d51bc72c4ddbb9df55cdef270d80\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229464b53803f84cfb9e3e14d98f9cb900\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Does it mean the hit parade? Does it mean a convention of grandfathers? It worried me when I read it. Then I read the first paragraph of the explanatory note, which mentions \u201CPersistent Organic Pollutants\u201D and I thought that maybe it did mean a convention of grandfathers! I looked through this bill for an explanation, and I could not find one. What is more, I wondered why we ended up with 10. What is so significant about 10 POPs? Why can it not be 12 POPs? [Interruption] My very good colleague Richard Worth has just pointed out that although there are 10 POPs in the explanatory note, there are only nine in the schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022069b1fba4cd143f984235e1bcb096591\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: A POP has been added. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f770266511d24ec6b3606148f39b5ae3\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it has not; a POP has been lost. We have lost a grandfather! I ask the Minister to explain to the House why there are 10 POPs in one part but only nine in another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f99520a39c2949d091018df7237a656a\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea2099410404f5a9528e8d45c558697\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, is it 10? Well, it was a good point while I was making it. We have just had a recount and found out that there are 10. My final point is something that does worry me\u2014on all sorts of legislation, particularly legislation relating to this Government. The explanatory note states: \u201CThe Bill contains an Order in Council mechanism\u201D. One of the things this Government said when it came to power was that it would be open and accountable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb4b800621840eeb93e2cb575329cc3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The member didn\u2019t believe it though, did he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93578ee270c40328cce603574880beb\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, one is always hopeful that a Government means what it says. Here is a Government that stands on the world stage and on stages around the country and says that it is open and accountable. What is it about to do? It is going to do things by Order in Council\u2014which has become an absolute habit with this Government\u2014which is merely a sneaky way for Cabinet to pass laws without telling the public. It gives more power to a small select group of people, selected by the Prime Minister, which then carries out her every wish and requirement. Did the public get an opportunity to have a say? Not on your nelly! That whole issue of Orders in Council really worries me. I accept that there are occasions when it is sensible to have an Order in Council mechanism for urgent reasons or emergencies, but it has been done far too often. I urge the select committee to take that point on board and study it deeply to make sure that there is a necessity for that Order in Council mechanism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI refer to the wider issues of the bill. My very good friend and colleague Shane Ardern made a very good address with regard to the whole issue of biosecurity, and we must make certain that the legislation fits in with the whole issue of biosecurity. Shane Ardern has already made that point. He is not sure whether this legislation does dovetail neatly into the current situation. He is uncertain as to whether this is going to be of assistance to our rural sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376ee1aea4f4481fb42bf3f4d37a63ce\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: The backbone of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4d88246733646fda3e5b7eece0375be\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the backbone of New Zealand; the people who keep this country going. If there is anyone who knows about these issues, it is Shane Ardern, and if he is questioning this, then it really, really worries me. Shane Ardern knows more about issues like biosecurity than Phil Goff has ever heard about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267265a78bff745e49c80e25cc1257996\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. He doesn\u2019t know what it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c33dc9e512674724b660f3a0ab2ae2f1\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the problem. We have a Government that is uncertain, but here we have a member who knows about it, lives in the community, works in the community, and understands these issues, and he is raising questions about it. I have to say that members on this side of the House will be perturbed. If Shane Ardern is perturbed about it, we will be perturbed. Absolutely so!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280d253cab60349a1994c36d2ab519688\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: If the National Party is perturbed, the country will be perturbed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da2deaaa02bb499f87e96807843ab247\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There we are. If the National Party is perturbed, the country will be perturbed. We should be concerned about this bill. There is a lot of work for the select committee. I hope it is able to spend enough time on this bill, because it is an important piece of legislation. It is not one of those sorts of bills that members can get up and speak on for 10 minutes, not knowing what they are talking about. It is an absolutely important piece of legislation that this Parliament should take seriously. I hope that others can make a contribution of the quality of the one that has just been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022b198512cfbce4922996c50ba76cfea85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b198512cfbce4922996c50ba76cfea85\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E In the light of the speech made by the member who has just resumed his seat, I say that I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f9aef94b0994e49851ea6fde5601e1a\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and that the committee be instructed to report back to this House by 8 May 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9fd189019cb46fa8a37cffb26efe4e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9fd189019cb46fa8a37cffb26efe4e7\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Just so the House understands, it is because the bill is being reported back early that we are objecting and intend to vote against this motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d1be65a6bae046dbafc31ec6690dc144\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 36\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000405\u0022\u003ELabour 52; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000406\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 23; New Zealand First 13.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00227a7e5205f2bc469abf3bd5c2c07e16d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a7e5205f2bc469abf3bd5c2c07e16d8\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House for the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee to have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, and during any evening on a day in which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b) and (c). This is in order to be consistent with the previous bill, which we want considered at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca4ced4533884e3cb23a179c30918974\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb2311e812154a65a4f9a16d272b229f\u0022\u003EIndependent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c8d18d381e8462484082dd7a4d4ee34\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002253d847e124a3431893a3707e19594e17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253d847e124a3431893a3707e19594e17\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill be now read a first time. The bill amends the Police Complaints Authority Act in order to enhance the independence of the Police Complaints Authority. The bill arises from the review of the Police Complaints Authority conducted by the Hon Sir Rodney Gallen, at my request. Sir Rodney released his report, entitled Review of the Police Complaints Authority, in October 2000. A perception of and a concern about a lack of independence of the Police Complaints Authority were at the heart of the review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI want to emphasise that the decision to review and amend the Act does not reflect overall dissatisfaction with the Police Complaints Authority\u2019s track record. During its 14 years in existence the Police Complaints Authority has done a lot to promote public confidence in police accountability. The overwhelming majority of complaints to the authority have been shown to have been dealt with thoroughly and fairly. The reforms are intended to address the public concern that police investigation of complaints of a serious nature against themselves, such as a police shooting, is neither independent nor appropriate. It is critical that when serious complaints are made against the police, there is no doubt as to the impartiality of the investigations and findings of the Police Complaints Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe major decision arising out of Sir Rodney\u2019s review is to provide the Police Complaints Authority with an enhanced investigative capacity of its own, independent of the police. While the authority already has a statutory authority to conduct its own investigations, it lacks the resources to do so. The Independent Police Complaints Authority will be resourced to allow it to investigate itself the most serious complaints against the police, rather than reviewing police investigations of their own members. An investigative team of up to six is being established, consisting of a team leader, investigators, and a support person. Last year\u2019s Budget provided $307,000 in new money to help establish that team, with a further $385,000 in additional funding to be provided from the 2003-04 year onwards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESir Rodney noted in his report that the name of the Police Complaints Authority has given rise to misunderstandings about its independence. The fact that investigations of complaints against the police are currently carried out by the police has reinforced that misunderstanding. Renaming the authority the Independent Police Complaints Authority will emphasise its independence, while clearly stating the role of the new authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ECurrently, the Police Complaints Authority is a single person appointed by the Governor-General on the recommendation of the House of Representatives. The bill provides for the membership of the Independent Police Complaints Authority to increase to three persons. The chair will be a current or retired judge and will be supported by two other members. Expansion of the authority\u2019s membership will allow representation from the wider community, and will thus assist in engendering confidence about its independence. As is the case with the Police Complaints Authority at present, all three members of the Independent Police Complaints Authority will be appointed by the Governor-General on the recommendation of this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill is divided into three parts. Part 1 changes the name of the Police Complaints Authority Act to the Independent Police Complaints Authority Act. It also specifies that the bill is to come into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EPart 2 sets out amendments to the Police Complaints Authority Act. In addition to the two changes referred to above, this part inserts provisions to provide for a number of matters relating to administration and to the appointment of members of the authority. Those provisions are consistent with the Government\u2019s Crown entity reforms. There are also amendments relating to the procedure of the authority\u2014for example, powers under the Commissions of Inquiry Act are conferred on the authority for the purposes of holding a hearing. In addition, provision is made for the disclosure of exculpatory information held by the Independent Police Complaints Authority in limited circumstances, to ensure that a person charged with an offence punishable by imprisonment receives a fair trial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EPart 2 also sets out transitional provisions to facilitate a smooth interface between the old Police Complaints Authority and the new Independent Police Complaints Authority. In particular, it provides that when the bill comes into force the existing Police Complaints Authority will become the chairperson of the new Independent Police Complaints Authority. All other employees and officers of the existing authority will be transferred to the Independent Police Complaints Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EPart 3 sets out consequential amendments and repeals required as a result of this bill. All of those amendments are minor and non-controversial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the objective of this bill is to enhance the independence of the Independent Police Complaints Authority. It is vital that there is full public confidence in the integrity of the investigations of the Police Complaints Authority. This legislation will assist in achieving that. I intend to move that this bill be referred to the Law and Order Committee for consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002294591c87dcdb40639c36a39410fcd7b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294591c87dcdb40639c36a39410fcd7b0\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E As the spokesperson on justice for the National Party, I tell members that National welcomes this bill and will speed its passage. It is obviously critical to the maintenance of an effective legal system that the police are competent, are accountable for their actions, and enjoy public confidence. That could be put in a line by saying that the fount of justice must not be sullied. I join with the comments made by the Minister in welcoming this bill. In respect of the bill, I seek to make just three points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe first point is that it was a major decision arising out of the review to which the Minister has referred that the Police Complaints Authority should have an enhanced investigative capacity of its own, independent of the police. For a few moments I just want to explore the case in support of that proposition. It is clear to me and to members of the National Party that it is time now for the authority to have such a capacity. Similar conclusions have been arrived at in England and in Australia, and the literature makes it clear that such a conclusion has eventually been arrived at in just about every other jurisdiction where an authority of this kind has been set up. While it may seem to favour the concern of the complainant for independence, there are also advantages for the police in the adopting of an independent investigative procedure. The police would no longer be subject to the same criticisms, but, more importantly, they would be less likely to be affected by doubtful complaints brought by persons who are the subject of criminal proceedings, for ulterior motives. They would also be relieved of that very uncomfortable obligation of investigating their colleagues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn New South Wales the audit report on the investigation of police complaints noted the importance of the recognition of links and patterns that identified serious shortcomings. I believe that the authority, being independent and involved solely in matters of this kind, is in the best possible position to identify such links or patterns, and that is a strong argument for the authority to be involved in direct investigation itself. In addition, there is a protection for so-called whistle-blowers. If members of the police were aware of undesirable practices occurring, it would be difficult to deal with those through the ordinary police channels of authority. It would be much simpler to ensure that the necessary material was available to the authority, which would be in a position to take any necessary action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is also the question of police morale. It is obvious that if the authority is seen as being an unsympathetic and a constant critic of the police, that will have an effect on morale. But if, on the other hand, the authority is able to build up the confidence of the police\u2014and they have that confidence at present\u2014there should be no effect on morale. I would hope, rather, those members of the police, who include the vast majority of persons in the service, can feel confident that if there are undesirable activities occurring, they will be dealt with and the standards of the service maintained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EConcerns have been expressed in the past, on behalf of both complainants and the police, of delays in completing investigations. I think it has been acknowledged that such delays would generally seem to have been the responsibility of the investigating police officers, rather than the authority. No doubt in some cases, at least, delays have occurred because the authority investigation was seen as having less immediate urgency than other work on which an officer was engaged. I argue that it would clearly be advantageous to both the police and complainants if that kind of delay could be avoided, and, on the whole, it seems more likely to be avoided if the authority has, in appropriate cases, an investigative capacity. This will clearly be a significant issue for the Law and Order Committee, to whom this bill is to be referred. That is the first issue that I would like to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second point is to invite Government members to consider an extension of this bill. I believe this new Police Complaints Authority could be expanded. In offering that view to members I wish to acknowledge the work that the Hon. Tony Ryall, as a former Minister of Justice, has done in that area. I support the innovative views that he has offered to me, which I now offer to Parliament. He says\u2014wisely, in my view\u2014that the Independent Police Complaints Authority could be expanded to deal with prison inmates\u2019 complaints. The same arguments about the police investigating themselves apply equally to Department of Corrections staff investigating complaints against prison officers. Obviously, there would be financial savings and other efficiencies in such an amalgamation. As we begin the debate this afternoon on this bill to establish the Independent Police Complaints Authority, I believe we should be looking at the possibilities of extending the jurisdiction of that authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe situation with the Department of Corrections is broadly this. Currently, inmates\u2019 complaints of mistreatment, breaches of rights, and illegality are dealt with by a five-person inspectorate in the Department of Corrections and a three-person team in the Office of the Ombudsmen. Last year, the inspectorate\u2014and I am talking about issues of complaint in the Department of Corrections\u2014dealt with 2,000 formal complaints, and the Office of the Ombudsmen apparently dealt with a similar number. Very few complaints are upheld. Mr Ryall believes, and I support his view, that the investigative skills and processes of investigating police and inmates\u2019 complaints are quite consistent. I hope that issue will be looked at by the Government and, certainly, by the Law and Order Committee, to which submissions on the bill would be addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe third issue I would like to deal with concerns some of the machinery aspects in the bill. I do not know whether it is appropriate that this authority be entitled the \u201CIndependent Police Complaints Authority\u201D. The Police Complaints Authority has always been independent\u2014the police would accept that, and so would the public. This change may just be another instance of the political correctness that so characterises every foot fault of this present Government. But it seems important, for those politically correct reasons, for this politically correct Government to change the name of the Police Complaints Authority to the Independent Police Complaints Authority. National has no quarrel with the proposal to increase the authority\u2019s membership to three persons, but we do have a concern, given the revamped jurisdiction and the additional powers that are to be given to the authority, that the authority is properly resourced. It would be a tragedy if the Government, for ideological reasons, made a decision to starve this particular authority of sufficient resources to do its work, and transferred the funding that should be available to it to other more questionable enterprises, of which there are many. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EFinally, I refer to the specific clauses dealing with particular issues. I note that there are three parts to the bill, and that the legislation deals not only with issues of substance relating to the Independent Police Complaints Authority but also with a number of machinery issues. So questions of salaries and allowances, staffing, personnel policy, and superannuation or retiring allowances are dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt would not be fair to say that this change is long overdue. But it is right to pay tribute to the Hon Sir Rodney Gallen, who, in his review of the Police Complaints Authority, has identified many of the issues that have been carried forward into this legislation. National supports the bill; we will speed its passage. We would like the Government to consider the proposal to expand the Independent Police Complaints Authority\u2019s role in the way that I have described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u002263a9b4a9a5f04104811b8d884619e1eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263a9b4a9a5f04104811b8d884619e1eb\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future welcomes the initiative shown by the Government in requesting a review of the Police Complaints Authority. We commend the swift move to review the authority, and we are also encouraged that the recommendations of the review have produced this amendment bill. Rather than getting into the minutiae of the detail of the bill, we recognise that much of the written material will, of course, change during the course of the select committee process on the bill, so there is little advantage in going through it line by line, like that previous speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe review of the Police Complaints Authority was conducted by a former judge, the Hon Sir Rodney Gallen. He was right to point out that in order to ensure that the Police Complaints Authority operates effectively to investigate and resolve complaints and incidents concerning the police, it should be given greater independence. The problem is\u2014and this is part and parcel of the point that this legislation is trying to address\u2014that instances like the Waitara shooting on 30 April 2000 certainly added some urgency to reviewing the Police Complaints Authority after the police investigation found the officer had acted in self-defence. Then a civil case was initiated against Constable Abbott, thereafter taking him out of his work for 2 years, although that case was essentially baseless. I think this legislation might address some of the problems like that, hopefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe United Future party believes that the Police Complaints Authority needs to have respect in the community, and part of that can be achieved by giving the authority a greater sense of independence. It needs to be seen to act independently of the police, and the public needs to be assured that any decisions that are made, are made independently and without bias. It is important that all enforcement agencies are accountable, that the rhetoric of \u201Cwho polices the police\u201D is simply that\u2014rhetoric\u2014and that police procedures are transparent and accountable through agencies such as the Independent Police Complaints Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe bill makes major changes to the authority. It will have an enhanced independent investigative capacity and a new structure. Its title is to change\u2014not that that really matters very much. The authority will ensure that no person in New Zealand is above the law, and will give the public confidence that an investigation is both thorough and professional. There are, however, cautionary flags that we would like to wave at this stage. In the review, Sir Rodney Gallen proposed that a layperson and a M\u0101ori representative should be the other two members of the authority, apart from its chair. This bill proposes that appointments to the authority will be in consultation with the Ministers of M\u0101ori Affairs, Women\u2019s Affairs, and Pacific Island Affairs. We believe that the best persons should be appointed to the positions, irrespective of where they come from, and taking into account their understanding of cultural issues\u2014as we all must\u2014and societal issues. We do not support appointments based on tokenism. United Future recognises the tension associated with investigating the police. It is part and parcel of that cultural aspect. We support the authority being independent, and believe that the investigating team members need to have knowledge of police procedure, and that their appointments should not be just be token gestures to minority groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIn this bill the Independent Police Complaints Authority will remain a Crown entity. There will be no Ombudsman involved. We would like to discuss further the merits of the authority being a Crown entity\u2014as opposed to having the status of an Officer of Parliament\u2014funded under Vote Justice in order to remain independent of the police. If it remains a Crown entity, United Future will advocate that an audit takes place within 3 years, including a review of public and police confidence in the new authority, and, of course, of the rate of success of the resolution processes. We support the secrecy and privacy provisions that have been retained in this bill, although there needs to be some discretion in those matters because sometimes the interests of one outweigh the interests of another. We will be looking to discussing those aspects of the bill in the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EUnited Future supports this bill going to the select committee. We support a bill that addresses the public concerns for accountability and transparency. We want the best complaints processes for police officers and the public\u2014ones that are not onerous and that justify faith in the authority from both the public and the police. We need to support the police in their increasingly demanding role, and the last thing we want to do is to undermine their self-confidence in doing the job they have been given. Public safety and confidence in the police therefore need to be promoted. We look forward to the submissions on, and further discussion of, this bill. We will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u00222888f5b6422a47d1b1ce895399cd38f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222888f5b6422a47d1b1ce895399cd38f0\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (NZ National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to take a call on this bill because, like many New Zealanders, I believe that it is an issue of State importance and I feel very strongly about it. We live in a country that is especially fortunate in that we have many things denied to a majority of nations in the world. We have clean water, education, freedom to vote, freedom of speech, freedom of association, and so forth. I also believe that most New Zealanders would agree that one of our greatest assets is that we are well served by a strong and well-disciplined police force. Unlike some other police forces, ours does not meddle in politics or brutalise its citizens. The police do a difficult job, and, generally, they do it well, despite their constant battles with top-heavy administration, resource shortfalls, and lack of staff. That shortfall in staff is nowhere more starkly manifested than in our police\u2019s inability to control violent and out-of-control crime in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EOne thing we must remember though is that our police force is not perfect. We have all heard stories and allegations of police misbehaviour and ineptitude. Some are related to individual cases, such as the Bain trial, the Tamihere trial, the Bouwer affair, and, of course, some members in the House might remember the Arthur Allan Thomas trial. Others were larger in their scope, such as the allegation that the police removed their identifying numbers just before they baton-charged students at a sit-in protest at Otago University in the early 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EOn the whole, people overwhelmingly respect our police force for the work that it does, but, given cases like those, is it any wonder that people doubt that the police always act in accordance with the standards we set them. Everyone hears rumours and urban legends about a range of suspicious behaviours by the police. Typical examples would be of evidence being conveniently discovered under unlikely circumstances, or of hardened criminals who suddenly start to sing like songbirds to secret police witnesses, and who, by the way, subsequently get significant reductions in their sentences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWhether or not those stories are true does not matter here today. The fact is, though, that, we have all heard them. No one who relays them believes that the police will be brought to account for their actions in those cases by an authority that is perceived to be a part of the old boy network. The need for an independent authority to rule on complaints against the police is as needed here as it is needed in the legal and medical professions. No one takes a body seriously if it is not seen as being independent and impartial, and, worse, if it makes allegations against the police seem more believable, because a clean verdict from the Police Complaints Authority means nothing, and no one expects a guilty one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EUnder the current system, there is no credibility whatsoever when complaints are investigated only by serving police officers and when the entire conduct of the inquiry is kept secret. Even the reports of their own investigations are normally not made public, so how can they possibly ever show the public that they are actually doing the job rather than whitewashing the actions of fellow officers? Take the case of the Waitara shooting, for example. Constable Abbott and his family went through hell on earth over the killing of Steven Wallace. The taking of a human life is always a serious matter, but that poor officer endured close to 3 years of agony. His story might have been different if the Police Complaints Authority had had credibility. The public needs to know that there is more to it than a rubber stamp; otherwise, the reaction will always be: \u201COh well, of course they cleared him.\u201D As a result of the authority\u2019s status as a spineless body in the public\u2019s view, the exoneration of Constable Abbott was worth essentially less than a Labour campaign promise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThat is why I was gladdened to see this legislation. As I perused the bill, it became clear that here was an intelligent, sensible remedy to problems that have been increasingly evident for some years. It is a vital step to rebuilding the image of the police within our communities. All in all, I was delighted with the common sense displayed in it. Then I got to the section about how the authority should be constituted, and, for me, it all came crashing down\u2014not, I hasten to add, from any fault in the legislation, but in the clear knowledge of how the Labour Government would apply it. According to section 4A, which clause 6 inserts into the principal Act, the authority will consist of three members appointed by the Governor-General on the recommendation of the House of Representatives. That sounds eminently sensible and reasonable, until we consider the recommendations in Sir Rodney Gallen\u2019s review of the Police Complaints Authority in 2002, in which he proposed that the authority should consist of three persons; that the chairperson ought to be a person who holds, or has held, judicial office; that there should be a M\u0101ori member, which recognises the significance of the Treaty of Waitangi; and that there should be a layperson who represents the community generally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI predict that when it comes to the time to appoint the representatives of this authority, Labour will once again crawl back to its cringing, worship mentality of political correctness. As surely as a dog returns to vomit, Labour members will be unable to resist the delight of appointing someone because of his or her supposed knowledge of the treaty, but who, in reality, will probably be a person whose chief credential has been to insult a vast number of New Zealanders who do not spend their entire lives apologising for events that are over 160 years old, or who do not worship all things M\u0101ori with blind fanaticism. Once again we will find Labour seeking out the loudest mouth with the fewest credentials, as it has done before. After all, that is how Labour got its front bench. That is what it will do, because that is what it always does. Any reasonable person would say yes to the appointment of a judge and yes to the appointment of members of a community, and he or she would probably suggest that a third member should be a retired police officer. Yet it does not seem likely that that will happen, given Labour\u2019s track record of pandering to the politically correct clauses of treaty arranging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EIn my view, an independent, properly constituted Police Complaints Authority would ease the work of the police. Currently there is a perception that police complaints are not always given the treatment they deserve. It is easy to understand that people do not have faith in the ability of an authority to be impartial when it is constituted and run by the very people it scrutinises in cases where allegations of wrongdoing may exist. I do not believe that we have serious ongoing problems within our police force. Yet, as the saying goes, \u201CCaesar\u2019s wife must be above suspicion.\u201D I put it to members of this House that that must be the case with our police force.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022017198c9736240caa97dbf18937b74b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022017198c9736240caa97dbf18937b74b5\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022c398ac92d08c4634b180051e71da7a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c398ac92d08c4634b180051e71da7a5a\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E What a stunning speech in support of this bill from the Labour Party. I am pleased to rise in support of this bill, and I have already doubled the time that the previous Labour speaker decided to devote to its first reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill is important. It is important because of the concerns that people have about the Police Complaints Authority, whether or not justified, as any member who has spent any time in this House will already know. We have all come across constituents who, sooner or later, establish that their concerns are genuine and then say that they are not prepared to go to the Police Complaints Authority because they do not believe it is independent. It is a very long-held concern. The Police Complaints Authority itself has been well aware of this concern and has strived to overcome it, to no effect. Although I could say that this bill is primarily a smokescreen, and I think that a careful look at the provisions will speak for themselves, there is nothing being done here that could not have been done by simply giving the Police Complaints Authority enough money to hire people to make independent investigations so they do not have to rely on the supply of internal investigators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAlthough there is nothing substantially different, it is perhaps important to rebrand the operation. The rebranding, of course, to call the authority \u201Cindependent\u201D is the most significant part, although I am quite satisfied that the eminent people who have filled the role of Police Complaints Authority for so many years have regarded themselves as independent. But the serious doubts about our legal system do need a response, and ACT will support this bill to the Law and Order Committee because of the requirement for that response. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere are fears that convictions have been secured with manufactured evidence. The previous National Party speaker mentioned the concern about secret witnesses\u2014those hardened criminals who suddenly start singing to their cell mates in prison, and the cell mates then go to court. There are concerns, whether or not they are justified, in almost every high-profile case that we now have. We have the group who are lobbying for David Bain, a group on the Christchurch cr\u00E8che case, and even a group on the Sounds murderer. It seems now that there has been enough fire where there is smoke, or enough to satisfy many New Zealanders that they can no longer trust the prosecution, and through that, implicitly, the police, and that is a grave shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAs I said, we could simply have dealt with that if it had been nipped in the bud quite a lot earlier, by ensuring that the authority was able to hire people overtly, from outside the police, for investigations and to carry through the investigations in good time without having to be so obviously dependent on the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut the real strength that keeps any uniformed force healthy, productive, and trusted is internal discipline. I am concerned that this community will be offered the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill as a panacea to problems that it does not touch. Vigorous internal discipline comes in a uniformed force when its members are proud, but of course they can be proud thugs, so that is not enough; when they know exactly what their priorities are, but of course it is not enough just to know them, they have to be the right priorities; when they know that the rules mean something and the constraints are applied; and when they feel that they have a reputation to uphold and they want to hold up their heads not only among their peers, which can easily be a gang member uniting against outsiders, but also hold up their heads with their families and with the people they went to school with, and in this little community that should be something we can sustain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EUniformed forces are especially vulnerable to a corruption of culture, to morale leadership problems, and to the failure of having clear objectives. I say to the House that the circumstances and fears that have prompted this bill should be a big warning to us. The fact is that so many New Zealanders are now concerned\u2014and I am concerned\u2014about a lack of commitment by senior police to the values that they need to uphold. I sat on the Justice and Electoral Committee that inquired into the reaction to the visit of the President of China. I was very concerned at the way in which senior police officers treated the evidence to that committee. It is clear in the committee\u2019s report that we simply did not believe them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI started then to take more seriously one or two of the complaints I was getting in my justice portfolio from people who Mr Goff may describe as scumbags, and did. They were coming to me with complaints about police conduct, which were seriously worrying. One of those complainants secured convictions a month ago against a police witness in a very serious case. That person secured convictions for perjury, and the police would not pursue them. He had to bring a private prosecution\u2014this is a person who had spent time in prison. He had to educate himself to the point where he could bring a private prosecution to the stage where the Crown Law Office eventually took it over and secured a conviction, in circumstances that worry me deeply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI am concerned that while we still have enough of a nucleus of police who are not bad, corrupt, lazy, or oppressive\u2014indeed, most police are not\u2014and we have a commitment by the police to maintain that, we have all the conditions for losing it, and when it is lost it goes quickly. It happens when the police are unacknowledged; when they are poorly paid, although that should not be a problem at the moment; when they are snubbed; when they are poorly led; and when they are frustrated. Of those last things, we have all three. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWe have a Minister of Police who snubs police, who overrides them, and who does not respect their statutory independence. We have a Minister of Police who has put out a directive that MPs are not to be spoken to by police without his consent, a Minister who has told the police they are not allowed to come into the precincts of Parliament without his consent, and a Minister who is so afraid of the police speaking to the Opposition that he has gagged them in a way that has not been the case in the living memory of the police members who have told me about it. We have a Minister who is running a police force that is riding on its cultural capital, and it is using it up. We have police who want to catch thieves, and who are instead being told to incur the wrath of the community by blocking motorways for hours on end, chasing people who are not evil, just careless, stupid, or perhaps criminally stupid. The priorities that are being set for the police are not inspiring them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWorse still, we have a Minister who is so weak in Cabinet that he has not been able to stop the law from being a revolving door. The Police Complaints Authority is only a palliative. The authority cannot cure a culture of absolute frustration at catching thieves and seeing them out the door the next day. It is no wonder police forces start taking the law into their own hands. It is no wonder they start saying that they will see justice, irrespective of whether the evidence is there. It is no wonder they beat people in the cells, because they think the courts will not do anything. This is a problem that the Minister of Police and this Government are fully responsible for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIf members want to see the evidence, they should look at this pathetic bill. While we support it to select committee, we want to know what the Police Complaints Authority will do with its employment policy. It is told to go out and get independent staff, and what does it have to do? The authority has to make sure it recognises the aims and aspirations of M\u0101ori, the employment requirements of M\u0101ori, and the need for the involvement of M\u0101ori as employees of the authority. That is a need. The authority has to go out there and racially appoint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWorse still is the need for opportunities for the recognition of the aims, aspirations, and cultural differences of ethnic or minority groups. Gangs are a minority group. The police have to recognise a gang\u2019s need to be staunch. What about the cultures that think the highest value is loyalty to one\u2019s family? Or the cultures that think that a good beating does not do anyone any harm? Or the cultures that think it is rude to ask direct questions, or demand yes or no answers? The Police Complaints Authority is not allowed to go out and get those tough, experienced, shrewd, incorruptible people. Instead, it has to go through this politically correct list that the Minister of Police is going to inflict on the authority. It even has to go out and hire people to meet the requirements of persons with disabilities. What does that mean? Those who are overstressed? There are policemen who are \u201Cperfing\u201D out of the police now because they cannot cope with the stress. Is the Police Complaints Authority going to pick up its ration of those cases? This Minister has introduced a bill that is an absolute insult to the cause he should be serving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022d73726ac93154075857da73de453f582\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d73726ac93154075857da73de453f582\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in support of the Independent Police Complaints Authority Bill, and, after listening to Mr Franks attack the bill he is voting for, and attack the Minister when this is about the complaints authority, and all the problems he perceives in the police, I could not help but think of this morning\u2019s Dominion Post where I read of another ACT person in trouble, and I thought to myself that we need an independent ACT complaints authority to deal with all the problems over there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to support the bill because I think it does address some issues where there could be a perception that there is some bias in the authority\u2019s work. It is very important for the public confidence in this body that that perception does not exist. I think that what Sir Rodney Gallen has done is very good, and it is a bill I am happy to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u002298a06c85a6054ba59b34e8ce8f81a3bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298a06c85a6054ba59b34e8ce8f81a3bc\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the introduction of the Independent Police Complaints Authority Amendment Bill, but there are some concerns, and I am happy to go through them. Firstly, the Police Complaints Authority plays a very important role. We wish to ensure that it is as independent as possible. We believe the public are entitled to have an independent watchdog to supervise as guardian of the police. All we want to say about the representation that has been put before us in this bill is we should make sure that it is still within this area and that there are no jobs for the boys. That is a very important part and whoever are the representatives, they should be in there for the right reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d3be57f630f4d0ca1575912fc362840\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Selected on merit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b9a196a40d4b73b803a5e5ad21260e\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY\u003C/span\u003E: They should be selected on merit, as my fellow MP has just mentioned. We know there are serious problems within the police force, such as deaths in cells and complaints the public have presented to the police not being carried out in the right manner. I am sure the public are entitled to make sure their complaints are treated correctly and the right answer is derived from their complaint. Cases in history have shown us there is possible corruption within the police force. In the Arthur Allan Thomas case, history has told us the shell case was planted, and the result of that obviously cost Arthur Allan Thomas 9 years of his life. He was acquitted and was paid out a large sum of money. If we look at the police force off shore, Australia has experienced police corruption at its highest. It nearly destroyed the New South Wales police force, and to get over its problems New South Wales had to go to England to engage a Police Commissioner Ryan to pull its police out of its doldrums and restore public confidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThat is a reasonable complaint here within New Zealand. The police are not held in high regard in some areas and their self-esteem and image have been damaged. With regard to the police in Masterton, which is where I am from, there are issues within that police force that need to be attended to. I am sure this independent complaints authority will sort out some of the problems affecting the public in the Wairarapa district\u2014and not only there but also within the central district of the Wellington region. I sit on the central police liaison board and complaints have come in that would raise the hairs on the back of one\u2019s neck. They are not very nice. [Interruption] Some are about Labour but most are about the police force. The racial overtones within the police system need to be corrected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003ELike other speakers who have laid their concerns out, I believe this bill is overdue. We will watch the passage of this bill as it goes through the House, and we will ensure the right ingredients are put into it for the safety of all New Zealanders and to build the self-esteem of the police force again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u00224716fea3a96947b8989de6c793665b46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224716fea3a96947b8989de6c793665b46\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the bill. We do not need an Independent Police Complaints Authority because there is anything wrong with our police; to the contrary, we in New Zealand have a very good police force, probably as good as there is in the world\u2014and that is the precise reason that we need an Independent Police Complaints Authority. The police intersect in areas of people\u2019s lives where there is stress, dissent, often violence, and often the need for a quick reaction. The fact that our police continually do so well is a tribute to them. But in the area of conflict there needs to be resolution, and there needs to be confidence that the resolution process is a sound process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhat we have learnt from the present Police Complaints Authority is that most complaints are not valid, but the investigation of them is important. The difficulty for complainants is to differentiate between the integrity of the process\u2014because those investigating are members of the police\u2014and the integrity of the result. An Independent Police Complaints Authority will not reveal our police force to be corrupt, inefficient, or bad. What it will do is give members of the public confidence that we are well policed, and confidence that when things do go wrong, the appropriate action is taken. I am enthusiastic for this bill, and I urge the House to vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbd332e92b6849ae8b5b1de1f4c00965\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbd332e92b6849ae8b5b1de1f4c00965\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make just a few comments on behalf of our spokesperson on these issues, who is not able to be here today. We, like everyone else, it seems, in this House, will be supporting this bill going to Law and Order Committee. We also regard it as an important bill that takes a step in the right direction. It does not go nearly as far as we would wish, and we will be pushing to see some new amendments when it goes to the select committee. We believe that the Gallen report was a very worthwhile report, and we are pleased that this bill does at least implement the recommendation to expand the membership of the Police Complaints Authority from one to three. But I have to say our preference would have been to accept Sir Rodney Gallen\u2019s recommendation that the authority should no longer be a Crown entity but should be an Officer of Parliament, much like, for example, the Ombudsman, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, or the Controller and Auditor-General. In our view, it is absolutely critically important that the Police Complaints Authority is independent and is seen to be independent. I think those particular institutions, authorities, that I mentioned before\u2014the Ombudsman, the Commissioner for the Environment, the Controller and Auditor-General, and so forth\u2014have, by virtue of that appointment, an independence that is widely recognised and widely respected. We believe that it would be extremely appropriate for this body to have a similar independence, and the recognition and respect that come from that independence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E We would also like the Government to take on board the Gallen recommendation that the authority should be better resourced to do investigations with its own investigatory staff, not mainly through seconded police, as is the present practice. In our view, using seconded police does not make it fully independent. We also think that any police that are used on the complaints authority should be taken off all other duties during their investigation, for exactly the same reason\u2014it gives them an independence that is very hard to have if one is really just an employed policeman or policewoman undertaking such part time. We think it is also very important that the authority can report directly to Parliament, if it is required to do so. That is another of the recommendations that we shall be pushing for very strongly during the select committee\u2019s consideration of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIn short, we support the legislation. We think it has implemented some of the measures of the Gallen report. It does represent an advance, a strengthening of the authority. It does not, in our view, go far enough. It does not provide the independence that the Gallen report recommended and gave very good reasons for. We can see no reason that those recommendations were not implemented in this legislation, and we will do everything in our power to try to persuade the Government to take on board those recommendations that I outlined. We are quite sure that if we do do that, the independence and respect of the Police Complaints Authority will be greatly enhanced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00224b2f192dca8e4f3aaf6532ba58f4d0ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b2f192dca8e4f3aaf6532ba58f4d0ba\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of the bill, and I recommend it going to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc34d6ec6a59466ebc693d71d1283f1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc34d6ec6a59466ebc693d71d1283f1f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (NZ National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take about 7 or 8 minutes to speak on this legislation. There are three or four things that I want to comment on. The first is that a number of people have commented on the fact that we are now talking about a change of name and a change of impression\u2014we are talking about the Independent Police Complaints Authority. I think that that is a good thing. But I want the House to reflect on this: I think that it is a great shame that we have to have a Police Complaints Authority, at all. It is a reflection on our society, actually. The police in this country do a great job for us. I am a strong supporter of the police. They certainly work hard, and they do very, very well in the community I represent. I think it is a great pity that it has become common for people who are unhappy with the police because they have been found out over some event or other, to lay a complaint. It has become a regular thing, and is not because the police have done something wrong; it is more likely because people are fighting against the system. The cases are often frivolous. In fact, I think that Russell Fairbrother made the point that many of the cases that are drawn to the police\u2019s attention are found out to have no substance at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E I think it is a great shame for our society that we have to have a structure whereby people are able to make frivolous complaints against an organisation that, in the main, is hugely respected in this country and certainly does a great job for us. That is the first point that I want to make. But, having said that, I note that we are now at a stage where the Police Complaints Authority is part of our everyday functioning and infrastructure. Therefore I think it is important that\u2014as Stephen Franks has suggested\u2014we give the impression that it is a totally independent complaints authority. There has certainly been concern amongst the community that there is a bias. I do not believe so myself, but there are those in this society who think that because the police are involved in the complaint and actually operate the authority, they do so with bias. Whenever I have had any involvement with a police investigation\u2014and I am sure other members will feel the same\u2014I had the view that it has been thorough, it has been without bias, and it has been accurate. I think the police do a great job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EHowever, it seems that it is time now that we move on. In that context I want to make one or two comments about the bill itself. I think that the Law and Order Committee has a fair amount of work to do with regard to this legislation. New section 4A(2), inserted by clause 6, states: \u201CThe powers of Authority are not affected by any vacancy in its membership.\u201D That is fair enough, but what happens if there are three vacancies and the membership is three? What happens if, for some reason, there are no members? Who then has the authority of the Independent Police Complaints Authority? Who is to run it until those vacancies are filled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe second point that concerns me is that under new section 4C, inserted by clause 6, the chairman of the authority is to be a judge or a retired judge. First, I question why a retired judge would be put in charge of an organisation like this. I think it is important that we have someone who is currently working and is au fait with what is happening within our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe issue that I want to raise in that context is the matter referred to in new section 4D. New section 4D, also inserted by clause 6, states that the judge is not only to be paid a salary and an allowance, as determined by the Higher Salaries Commission, but is also to retain his or her rank, title, status, precedence, salary, and annual or other allowances as a judge. So they will get a double whammy. I would have thought that that is probably not proper in our day. The person is either going to be a judge or a chairman of an authority. But to appoint somebody who will, as a judge, attract a huge amount of revenue from the taxpayer\u2014we are talking about an income of more than a couple of hundred thousand for a judge\u2014and have a salary or an allowance on top of that while they are not doing the work as a judge but performing as the chair of the Independent Police Complaints Authority, speaks to me of a double whammy. I think that the select committee really does need to study that. The person is either paid as a judge and performs as a judge or the person gets paid as a chairman of the Independent Police Complaints Authority. I do not think it is proper that he or she should have two incomes and be performing in only one capacity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe last issue that I want to raise\u2014and Stephen Franks, amongst others, has alluded to this already, as has my colleague Brian Connell\u2014is with regard to new section 10A, \u201CPersonnel policy\u201D inserted by clause 8. I have to say that when one reads through this, the mind boggles. I am sure that the select committee will want to spend some hours over this, because to try to fulfil what this section sets out would be beyond belief. If the Minister believes that we can achieve\u2014not just attempt but achieve\u2014what this clause sets out, then I have to say that his aspirations, and his beliefs in being able to deliver, are far better than mine. When we look at some of these things, I am not sure how anybody can possibly achieve them. One of the things about law that I have found in my time in this Parliament is that if we write law that is not achievable or is silly, then it gets ignored, and we will end up with a silly result here, quite frankly. The select committee needs to look at that section very hard and very long. It needs to really address that section and get it back into the perspective and context of our modern-day society. I think that this legislation is far too politically correct. It just reflects where the Government wants to take us. However, having said that, I think that there are some issues for the select committee to study, and obviously that study is needed. The National Party supports this bill, and I will now take my seat so that that can happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Law and Order Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002272e9afb42ba04a49b1528a997f306aa8\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Symphony Orchestra Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022338fb4f3733745108add2befb3e51fe5\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u002263ab78cbc77947858855e13b08d5611d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263ab78cbc77947858855e13b08d5611d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage: I move, That the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra Bill be now read a first time. It is my intention that it be referred to the Government Administration Committee. The New Zealand Symphony Orchestra has long been one of the country\u2019s most prized cultural assets. For nearly 60 years, originally as part of the then New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation and then as a stand-alone organisation, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra has provided New Zealanders with outstanding performances of orchestral music. More broadly, it is one of the platforms on which, over time, New Zealand has constructed a strong sense of artistic potential. The excellence of our national orchestra signals something very important about our culture and our cultural expertise both to New Zealanders and to the rest of the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe significance and quality of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra has been well understood by successive Governments. Since the orchestra was founded all Governments have supported the funding of this publicly owned orchestra that has become a national icon. In the year 2000 the Government put the orchestra on a more secure financial footing. At that time, as part of the cultural recovery package, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra received a significant capital injection. An extra $1.4 million annually was put into its operational funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Symphony Orchestra has its own Act of Parliament. Under the current Act, the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra Act, the orchestra is established as a limited liability company. It operates within the requirements of the Companies Act, but without any legislative guidance in respect of its purpose or functions. That primary concern with a commercial focus is an anomaly. Few people would assert that the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra exists principally for commercial reasons. It has been owned and funded by the New Zealand Government because, as our national touring orchestra, it plays a key cultural role. It would be an irresponsible Government that, as owner and funder, did not have expectations about the orchestra\u2019s performance in that role. The Government believes it is now appropriate that those expectations are made explicit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is, therefore, to provide the orchestra with clearly defined objectives and functions, and with a legislative basis for its operation as a non-company Crown entity that is consistent with those objectives and functions, and that accurately reflects the orchestra\u2019s relationship to its owner, the Government. Among other things, the bill signals the Government\u2019s expectation that the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra will provide the public of New Zealand with performances of symphonic music of an international standard. It will be required to seek to contribute to the development of a distinctly New Zealand cultural environment and to encourage New Zealand musical composition. Its formal functions will include presenting a broad repertoire of orchestral performance, including New Zealand works and recent works, encouraging the development of New Zealand musicians, and encouraging the development of New Zealanders\u2019 knowledge and appreciation of orchestral music. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ESignificant sums of taxpayers\u2019 money are involved in funding the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. It is, therefore, appropriate that the clearest possible legislative mandate is in place for the orchestra. This legislation provides the people of New Zealand, as both music lovers and taxpayers, with a meaningful accountability mechanism. It provides a firm basis for the discussion between the Government and the orchestra each year over its funding, and provides Parliament with a touchstone for its examination of the performance of the orchestra each year during the estimates and financial review processes. The new legislation will guide the orchestra itself in its continuing development and in its continuing contribution to our lively and evolving cultural sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003ELet me add that the bill has been drafted with the support of the orchestra\u2019s board and management, and there has also been consultation with the orchestra\u2019s players\u2019 committee. Nothing in this legislation diminishes the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra\u2019s artistic independence or integrity. The New Zealand Symphony Orchestra will continue to act without ministerial or, indeed, parliamentary direction in artistic matters. The orchestra will continue to be required to make prudent financial decisions. The fact that the Government is involved with the orchestra, for cultural rather than commercial reasons, does not mean that the orchestra is exempt from commercial imperatives. The Government will expect the orchestra to operate in a financially responsible manner and to maintain its financial viability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe Government recognises the very great importance of our cultural sector. It recognises that many cultural organisations, among them our committed and expert regional orchestras, contribute to the well-being of that sector and, therefore, to the richness of our lives as New Zealanders. We do, however, have special expectations of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra as one of our foremost cultural institutions, and the public makes a considerable investment in its ongoing success. This bill is consistent with both the status of the orchestra and the expectations that the Government and New Zealanders have of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EIn closing, I add that I am, of course, introducing this bill on behalf of the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, who would like me to say that she endorses this legislation fully and looks forward to its passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002292c4889662244474b53554b500b607bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292c4889662244474b53554b500b607bd\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports this bill being referred to a select committee. I asked some questions in the House last year about the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, and I was particularly concerned that in this year\u2019s programme there was a dearth of New Zealanders enjoying major roles. At that stage there was only one New Zealander taking part in this year\u2019s orchestral programme. I would be interested to hear from the next Government speaker just how many New Zealanders do have principal roles in the orchestra\u2019s programme this year. The Minister highlighted what was effectively a direction from Parliament to the orchestra, which was that there should be more New Zealand involvement. He said in his speech that Parliament would not be directing the orchestra, but we clearly are. It is unfortunate that we even have legislation for the orchestra. It has managed for all these years without legislation. There seems to be a demand by this Government that we have to legislate for everything, so we are legislating for the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI enjoy the orchestra\u2019s programmes, both by way of live performance and by listening to them on the Concert Programme on the radio. Concert FM is probably my favourite radio programme. One must not forget that there are other orchestral groups around the country. Those of us in Auckland enjoy the Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra and other chamber orchestras. I am sure that the people of Christchurch, of Hamilton, and of various other parts of New Zealand enjoy their orchestras, as well. The New Zealand Symphony Orchestra is very well funded. I support all its funding\u2014it is probably inadequately funded\u2014but we must not forget that there are other orchestras, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E I look forward to hearing Lynn Harrell this year, playing Elgar\u2019s Cello Concerto and Shostakovich\u2019s Cello Concerto No. 1. There is an excellent line-up of conductors this year. The Tchaikovsky piano competition winner Barry Douglas and Peter Donohoe will be playing, and the brilliant young violin star Ilya Gringolts will be performing, as well. There is a composer focus this year, with three concerts of music by Richard Strauss, Rachmaninov, and Prokofiev respectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030220e39eb30790ad4fbab5433343e3987279000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"