"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e00ded491f214ea9b02370ccbc1e3e36\u0022\u003ETuesday, 29 April 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002224d65966074b4f36988010fc9c8c78c7\u0022\u003ETuesday, 29 April 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022df7222c207fb435e899fa194b6636e29\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237900ae41df64b4695aa54396a1ea68a\u0022\u003EQuestions for Written Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf5469da45ed44ed9612ce81afec91aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf5469da45ed44ed9612ce81afec91aa\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We in the Opposition are having some difficulty in getting replies to questions for written answer, and I have raised that matter with you. We have a serial offender in the Minister of Education, and I just wonder what action your office has taken in making the Minister comply with the Standing Orders in replying to written questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dafe9979da8246feb5056b3b60b68ec5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will examine that matter and report back to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c095b9c127647e88a47b69f32e4e28e\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289656d9982a64bd289bb54508b488c2f\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022876fb52ddab5409eac692aa45ea190e3\u0022\u003EElectricity\u2014Supply\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d8b5fa1957343eabf3cd05f84165097\u0022\u003E1. Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What actions has the Government taken as a result of the 2000 Inquiry into the Electricity Industry, the 2001 electricity crisis, and the electricity governance establishment project, and will these actions reduce what he described as \u201Ceconomic and social disruption\u201D facing New Zealand this winter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d301d33d741b49a38a53617e0beded4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d301d33d741b49a38a53617e0beded4d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E We passed the Electricity Industry Reform Act and the electricity amendment legislation, which were both opposed by National. The Government announced a series of moves yesterday to reduce the probability of disruption, should a dry winter eventuate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9ce995e83e412d97e26111ccdda0df\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: After passing two Acts of Parliament, conducting an inquiry into the electricity industry in June 2000, publishing the first policy statement by the Government as to the further development of New Zealand\u2019s electricity industry\u2014which includes the management of electricity supply risk\u2014and then publishing a revised policy statement on exactly the same issue in February 2002, why is it that nothing has happened at all to reduce the impact of a dry year on New Zealand\u2019s electricity supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284582fc838a54bcc8a68cf3ca98e13ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the fact that Parliament is sovereign, neither statute nor policy statement can make it rain in the lakes, nor fill up the Maui gasfield with the amount of gas that was previously assumed to be recoverable. There are, of course, questions lying around the issue of whether the market is the best means of ensuring security of supply. I welcome the suggestion from the Opposition about reducing the amount of market influence in the electricity area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022472e367465fc486291e399fc9c37fa89\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister care to share with the House exactly what is the effect of the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de297dfbfaf04cd5b52ae9688420891d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently it is to make the Opposition laugh, but, in fact, it picked up the key recommendation of the inquiry, by providing for industry self-regulation. However, the Minister of Energy was far-sighted enough to provide for a Crown governance board should the industry model fail. It looks like we may now have to use that option, which was also opposed by National and ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253cfd69314e4938b3be4a6fb3ada95a\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concur that to address the electricity problems in the short term there needs to be appropriate regulation coupled with a financial incentive to save power, and that in the longer term there need to be incentives and less bureaucracy in order to improve and enlarge the supply capacity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a1ab99d924a41f1b87011a483fb71ca\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I agree, on the second point, that there is not enough bureaucracy and rather too much market, in terms of long-term supply considerations. [Interruption] The Opposition cannot have it both ways. It cannot say that the market works perfectly but there is a problem, and then object to any suggestions for changing the market. Certainly it is very important for reductions in demand over the coming period to first look at issues like the appropriate levels of coal supply for the Huntly plant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f348b9533df45d8b080416d6489b825\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister admit that any power cuts and economic and social disruption caused by electricity shortages are not the result of market failure but of Government failure, in that the Government owns 70 percent of the generating capacity in New Zealand and has elected to take scarcity profits over building new generating capacity, the Government owns 100 percent of the national grid and has elected to take profits rather than to increase the grid\u2019s capacity, it is the Government\u2019s own Department of Conservation that is refusing to allow the Dobson hydro scheme to go ahead, and it is this Government that has decided to make New Zealand the only country in the Southern Hemisphere to ratify the Kyoto Protocol?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b2f022365b48a69253619882289a1a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows full well that he made a statement at the end of that, rather than asking a question. The aspects of the question that were addressed, the Minister can reply to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b04be69afe41e9a8e15e1cc18ea5b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I will just reply to the last part. As a professional historian by training, I say that for A to cause B, A has to come first. As the Kyoto Protocol does not come into force until 2008, it is hard to see how it is causing a power crisis in 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae8144556e2347d1863570da14a94e93\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the New Zealand economy has given Max Bradford\u2019s market reforms a long-enough trial, and does he agree\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c76a75725dbd4122b6e25a52f22e6e7a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That comment is totally out of line. The current situation we face in the electricity industry is entirely of this Government\u2019s making\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4082eeb5f2845679d7adb34ff552c5f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a matter for a point of order. That is a political point. The member\u2019s question, so far, is perfectly in order. The member will start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834b89d83e0b4eeb879da559dd809c8e\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the New Zealand economy has given Max Bradford\u2019s market reforms a long-enough trial\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022887e4ace040742f4a2baabc5370270a6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is no such thing as \u201CMax Bradford\u2019s market reforms\u201D. There are simply the reforms\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a149030383e54b59a71bf9bc8aace2dd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We have had a 2 weeks\u2019 break, and we are having a little bit of fun. That is where it ends. The member, so far, has not come to any point of order. I want to know what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228422c2ac6b8b4c1eb88855e90c2ea17f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If you refer to Standing Order 372(2) you will find that one cannot make inferences, epithets, or assumptions when asking a question. That is exactly what this member has done. What we have at the moment is Pete Hodgson\u2019s power system, which has fallen apart. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aae91abf8454ca198011922821b7589\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member rewords her question \u201Creforms introduced by the Hon Max Bradford\u201D, it will be in perfectly good order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abbbe1e2c27b4891ac9472667e37ab37\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your advice. Does the Minister believe that the New Zealand economy has given the market reforms introduced by Max Bradford a long-enough trial, and does he agree that the least economic cost and social disruption in future will come from accelerating permanent improvements in energy efficiency, while we develop cost-effective renewable supply options?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6c9c231aea4682922e004477f8c59d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, demand management over both the short and long term is important in the electricity market, but it has to be said there are elements that can be used to influence demand factors. If one is to give away those elements, then it is much harder to limit demand through other mechanisms. But there are some interesting questions around whether the market by itself will deliver a sufficient margin of security of supply, given New Zealand\u2019s peculiar situation of dependence on hydro power and the nature of its hydrology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432de85523514ccda815817057b909f1\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that Transpower is apparently unwilling to commit the funding necessary to upgrade the distribution capacity of the national grid, because it requires the approval of every local authority over whose area its wires might pass and has no confidence that that will be forthcoming; if so, what action is he prepared to take in respect of that matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264a4e98db1734b8982f7ebabfacaf5d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That issue has certainly been raised, but it is not clear that it is true. We are looking at that, but there are other considerations in terms of Transpower\u2019s own commercial imperatives. One of the changes that result from Mr Hodgson\u2019s legislation is that once the Electricity Governance Board is in place it may be a great deal easier to deal with that particular matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffc2ba63f1a044e29e935d14a03c56b7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Government has itself known about the effects on New Zealand households and businesses of the 2001 electricity crisis, can the Minister tell us exactly what steps this Government has taken since that crisis to reduce the impact of a dry year this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcee9c41337649ccaabbafc017a1a6e9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: There was no expectation of a dry year as early as 2003. The member should also be aware that the Maui Gas redetermination has a big impact on the amount of gas that is to be taken out of Maui this year. That was not expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7c57b3f3f3747d1a9bcf19eb6f35a57\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Reserve Bank Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f812c258c604406bbdba229e1d7545df\u0022\u003EDAVID CUNLIFFE (NZ Labour\u2014New Lynn)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What reports has he received regarding the response to the recent announcement by the Reserve Bank of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002282f685b4e1b84535bd5a9357f5c31f27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282f685b4e1b84535bd5a9357f5c31f27\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Business New Zealand described it as prudent, the Council of Trade Unions said that it was a step in the right direction, WestpacTrust said that a stitch in time saves nine and compared it to the more reactive responses seen in some earlier cycles, and the Opposition spokesperson said he had not expected the bank to move at that time, which indicated that he would not have done so had he stayed being the Reserve Bank Governor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9ea3ee29b8544cda18880390f716415\u0022\u003EDavid Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: What moves has the Government made to allow the conduct of monetary policy to be more accommodating of growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263f4f01716364ca7b3de6f1427ce2205\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: There were three changes to the monetary policy framework\u2014those in the policy targets agreement requiring the bank to avoid unnecessary economic instability, requiring the bank to take a medium-term focus rather than be distracted by temporary fluctuations, and adjusting the inflation band to 1 to 3 percent. Those are all well supported by the business sector in New Zealand, and by informed commentators and financial analysts overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246ef987fcec440439581ad695770ac91\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Given that one of his express aims in changing the policy targets agreement with the Reserve Bank Governor in both 1999 and last year was to \u201Cminimise excessive appreciation of the New Zealand dollar\u2019\u2019, how does the Minister reconcile his claim that the changes have been successful with the fact that the New Zealand dollar has appreciated faster during the last year than at any other time since the currency was floated in March 1985?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db2a8af9a884ae8b7caa5f8db00134b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The primary factor is that we have enjoyed the highest growth rate in the OECD, which has attracted money into New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846986de404743bd81e2f8a26bddbd4a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister received any reports of the enormous cost to New Zealand\u2019s economy over the last 7 years of the Reserve Bank Governor having previously failed to take anything other than a blind ideological approach to this issue, at a great cost to the New Zealand borrower?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe1ee95b022048ac803ca94dd80bfb10\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I saw many comments, in particular last Thursday, about a lack of proactive responses in earlier periods, and therefore a tendency to both ratchet up too early on the upside and ratchet down too slowly on the downside of the economy, and welcoming a more proactive approach by the new management of the Reserve Bank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002283c8ae4d418f4d7ca42951b986feb530\u0022\u003EEconomy\u2014Reserve Bank Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222239e6cd7921403bb79542c7fce0c424\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Reserve Bank Governor Alan Bollard\u2019s statement, when announcing the reduction in the official cash rate from 5.75 percent to 5.5 percent, that \u201Cavailable data suggest that growth in the New Zealand economy is slowing\u201D; if so, will the cut in interest rates be accompanied by a prosperity-boosting tax cut?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022df2cca3dfa5b49be8efc1a0028853641\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df2cca3dfa5b49be8efc1a0028853641\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Yes and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226561b8b1f3b84ed480e310c0985accf5\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s own statements of concern that economic growth will be affected by the energy crisis and the severe acute respiratory syndrome epidemic, how does he justify overtaxing the country in order to fund his superannuation scheme and get a surplus, when, if he balanced the Budget, there would be enough money for a $50 per week, per full-time taxpayer tax cut, and would not such a tax cut boost the economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ecebe8bb8bf4e7f978e18b853d99a7f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Only a very silly Minister of Finance would try to solve a cyclical downturn problem by a structural change in the Government accounts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fbd6008f5bf46448104ce967da610c8\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Why will the Government not spend the Budget surpluses now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f92418d27b54889ad6ec2ec321677d4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because unlike some others, we are governing for the long term and governing for all New Zealanders, not just for the rich. Before we spend the surpluses, which are not cash surpluses but surpluses on an operating balance on an accruals basis, we need to know what proportion of them is structural and what proportion is cyclical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcc3a390aa3f42f9a885bf55997330a3\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Given the likelihood of a sharp slow-down in the economy over the next year or so, why does the Government continue to erect what most people in the business sector see as major barriers to economic growth, such as the Resource Management Amendment Bill and the Land Transport Management Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258d2ba114e2c4ec39053f664170967b8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because we do not agree with business, particularly on the former. In any case, 3 years ago we were forecast that this economy would grind to a permanent halt and no new jobs would be created. Over the last year we have had the fastest growth rate in the OECD and well over 100,000 new jobs. Cassandra, I am afraid, is one of the few people left on the unemployed index at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022764e477f22ba42998e6b6195013c0201\u0022\u003EElectricity\u2014Dobson Hydro Scheme\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb77ebbf9eac4452929f029288be8e0f\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: With the worsening electricity crisis and concerns for adequate electricity supply in future years, will he reconsider amending the Conservation Act 1987 to enable the proposed Dobson hydro scheme to go ahead as the proposed scheme is in a high rainfall area; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022829c6afd02bf4ae4a4fa2faed74673ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022829c6afd02bf4ae4a4fa2faed74673ed\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E No, I will not. The proposed power scheme would take some time to construct and is irrelevant in terms of the electricity situation this winter. The modest amount of power likely from this scheme does not, in any case, justify the flooding of an area of valley-floor kahikatea, and matai forest protected within an ecological area and established by the National Government in 1983.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a174c99e5c4b9697dcb707be9955c7\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister stated in the Greymouth Evening Star with reference to the Dobson hydro proposal that there are \u201Cbetter projects around\u201D, what specific projects was he referring to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293902238494e4052baa17cf384957188\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a number of options were suggested in that very same paper the member referred to. I would suggest that he and other members of the House agree to my tabling this document, which I propose to do now. I seek leave to table an article from the Greymouth Evening Star, which lists quite a number of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229606c2bf99664200b591bd189652cb9a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister could also list a couple of those options as requested. I will take the tabling of the document at the end of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d882ce5b6a4c6ebc7247fa368d17ee\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Project Aqua, the proposed scheme for the Waitaki River, would generate up to 570 megawatts, compared with the 60 megawatts from the proposed Dobson scheme. The New Zealand Herald on 16 April had a suggestion from Mighty River Power that it would put a 100-megawatt geothermal plant at Kawerau. Those would be much more viable options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2f957f1b9e74062a0dc8067f8f0df5b\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on other power generation proposals for the West Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b612cea84fbc47699c3f73bdd76d2dd8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am trying to gather how this goes now. Mr Copeland asked the question. United Future has an understanding with this Government in respect of supply, and now you are giving Mr Parker a supplementary question. Now that is not how it goes in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb578fdc62ef4fa09801bf6409b76880\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sorry, but that is how it has gone in the last 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb0042098bd42f69c6ec82e021d2a46\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is not going to go on for many more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226278b30e42a847f5a63ee278fd51e53b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3362a95a2e5427b8abfef19f099932c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f99bb57d3a0405bbe2da494cada8e8b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will not raise that point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226178ce8e0c948eea48ef1d1dd13198b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have raised it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e78321e5ba054fd5a6cc15c352ca950b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I have ruled it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201feb3dc595f44f1a904abc0af51b1f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I want to finish my point of order and not be constantly interrupted before I have completed what I want to say. The fact of the matter is that everybody on this side of the House expected the next question to come to this side after Mr Copeland\u2019s supplementary question. That is what the press gallery and everybody else watching this TV show would be expecting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224029b198-a7b2-4eea-867c-79ef46cafeb9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022877b3e1f195146609b9b77e09e3b7a04\u0022\u003EHon Dover Samuels\u003C/span\u003E: A TV show!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f891c071409346d1b74f6cb76a134952\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is being shown to about 70,000 New Zealanders who have nothing better to do. My point is, why is there a change now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259625a1aec634f1c86b3d934176e132f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There has been no change. The United Future party is not part of the Government coalition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282abe83ec2074e3a960be476c0cb2702\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on other power generation proposals for the West Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226887e1f41823476c8a1d778a7bece6a3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen an excellent report in the Greymouth Evening Star, the headline of which was \u201CPlugging into the Coast\u2019s power potential\u201D. I seek leave of the House to table this, as there seems to be a great deal of interest in the subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ab12cb88bba461595a3009a0863e46d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table it. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219942a08fa654fa298605ca3e1db11c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why did he, in an interview on National Radio on 16 April, say: \u201CThis project has already been to the High Court and was rejected.\u201D, when in fact it has never been to the High Court or any other court, and the decision was made by a Minister of the Crown, or is this just part of a misleading campaign for this Government not to take responsibility for its own decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbc4d214832c4f4abe8f4efa5c2ccb1e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly, that member was not listening carefully to the interview, because in that interview I made the point the topic had been to the High Court. In fact, that member should recall that in 1995 his predecessor, Denis Marshall, as Minister of Conservation, declined the flooding of an area of conservation land in Buller for a hydro scheme. It was tested in the High Court and thrown out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022102042d3b8e94de0873a823d334550ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table this transcript, which says: \u201CThis project\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e28fe865d54f4d8c19fa0ceda5d891\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows tabling is done at the end of a question. However, the Minister twice asked for leave to table. I allowed it, and as I have done that for him I will now allow it for the member. Is there any objection to the tabling of Dr Nick Smith\u2019s statement? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e272d7aa2064c4baa1fa119c54f66ee\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to read the transcript so the House can be clear about exactly what the Minister did say on National Radio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237959421c747469e8b68ed5828e50aa0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to read the transcript. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f2e93c9b72493f8c484dd8c892bc77\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have not read the transcript, but I heard my colleague read a sentence when he sought the tabling of it, and the quote was: \u201CThis project\u2014\u201D. Given that the Minister in his answer said he did not talk about the project, he talked about the topic, I wonder whether the Minister wishes to reconsider his answer, because answers in this House are meant to be accurate, and if the Minister has misrepresented this to the House, now is the time to correct it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269fa887200ac43648727aacaa64ff194\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is up to the member or the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c91ed7e24ba34dec8071043229b12fda\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to make it clear to the House that my recollection of that interview was that flooding ecological land is the topic I was talking about. My reference\u2014[Interruption] I thank Dr Smith. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aa8c81052da483f8859cfa16cefd221\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I warn people about calling out and interjecting during points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006769c4780c4a9db82b238da8859707\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a07bb652d06f44669fc6f8a5b09dfe51\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is a point of order, and that is Mr Brownlee\u2019s last warning for the day. It is a point of order and the member is speaking to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285cbacedc38d4e29934d0b9dd1900a50\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The member is misusing the point of order procedure. He should actually be seeking leave to make an explanation, which the House would give to him, but he should do it properly, not under a point of order procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d68ec6385cb4a7e912e733f889b278b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member can raise a point of order outside the point of order. This is supplementary question material so far that I have been listening to, not a point of order. The member was speaking to the point of order. Had the Minister finished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225fd15aa4f4e4967a6b9206f36e7f03c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I had not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022327d430ceacf428fb3cadd7536f1892f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a complete abuse of the point of order procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229e66551293c47659f5e1811fb34bbf6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f430775426ac4f35ae94f232cf53b94f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise, and say we are having a complete abuse of the point of order procedure. The member is correcting his answer, and you and I know that he should not do that by way of a point of order. He should seek leave and make a proper explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4cb56b81ac41d08caf6b7341ee26e3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now leave the Chamber. He is way out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b386e1fa68f14faf968a3521df0311dc\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: So I am now being thrown out for insisting that the Standing Orders be followed. What you are doing is outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228edd2b277bee4b9d87a8266d23611edf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb81df22a7349d0bc1f5bddd84e0e5c\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I made a legitimate point of order, you know I am correct, and you are now throwing me out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225203b3a960d34973ab5618ce4abea5bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229209abbdb06a4388b2654b3608b84ec5\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was on his feet explaining the difference, and in fact used the words \u201Cin his recollection\u201D\u2014referring to whether it was an individual project or the general topic. That is, in fact, correcting the answer. He took my invitation, which you said he was entitled to take, to correct his answer. It is quite wrong to do that by way of a point of order. I understood he was doing it by way of a correction. When a member then goes through the process of pointing out that simple fact as laid out under the Standing Orders and then gets thrown out because of it, that is, I think, quite wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc95876d0d845108ae6855dee4f9d29\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I think the House does need clarification on that point. My understanding of the Standing Orders is quite clear. The Minister in the situation we have just experienced should have sought the leave of the House to make an explanation. My colleague Richard Prebble has been thrown out of the House for standing up for the rights of the Opposition on this issue, and I think that does give the Chair cause for reflection. I suggest that was an over-reaction. I also suggest that if that interpretation is correct, you should invite my colleague to return to the Chamber forthwith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4a61c8268eb400284afb399d102627f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear to me, having watched the episode, that Mr Prebble was thrown out for continuing to interject and yell abuse at the Chair during a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f8466f0f4db44f283fb042550732190\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The problem here arose because a Minister sought to clarify a situation from his memory, when he knew full well that in front of him\u2014provided by Dr Smith\u2014was the transcript, which, if read out, would have solved the problem. It is sneaky and it is weasel words; that is what has been condoned here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc694a612ba9491a89d6c5dc194be8b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I first want to deal with the matter of Mr Prebble. He was not thrown out for attempting to raise a point of order; he was thrown out for defying the Chair. That was the reason, and the same will happen to anyone who does that. I will not have that in this House. The second point is that the Minister was speaking to a point of order, but it is clear that it was not a valid point of order, and the matter ends at this point. However, supplementary questions can continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f382038770349d989bd3bf4d9f87f9c\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are two points I want to make. The first is that when the Minister was answering his question initially, he had a document in front of him. You directed him to read from the document to make a couple of points from it \u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ebb8fbe0224412a3aa646a3300c6ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3250695b6ed432a92f3a67a47cf5848\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Correct, in answer to his question. I wonder therefore, given that you gave him an instruction, or suggested to him that he read from the document, whether you might suggest to him that he read from the transcript so that the House does know what it states. You could ask him to do that in the same way that you asked him in the first instance. That would clarify the matter for us and it would be useful. The second point I want to make is, given that you have asked Mr Prebble to leave\u2014in circumstances that there has been some question about\u2014I wonder whether you could ask him to be recalled at the end of this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5e90f460a184a5f869f9ad7f31cb9fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not because, as every member knows, he was thrown out for defying the Chair and shouting abuse, which he cannot do. That was the reason he was thrown out, and everyone knows it. On the member\u2019s first point, all I can say is that if a member or a Minister has misled the House, there is an appropriate way to deal with the matter, and we all know what that way is. I can then receive correspondence on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab79c31033994ea8acd8c0238e25ed69\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is a serious development that arises from your last statement\u2014that is, Ministers who wait until some distant time in the day, when no one is in the House, when the press gallery is totally empty, and when the television lights are off, and then come down to the House and correct their answer. It is wrong, and they should be told either to make the correction immediately or to take the consequences the next day in a privilege hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b343c18141c14b3d971ec3e1c4249ddc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I thought that was the case, I would be the first to jump on the Minister as hard as I could.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eec009ee6c4348e5a551ca8d7ae80359\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There has been much confusion here. First of all, I do not believe that Mr Chris Carter called out \u201CSpeaking to the point of order\u201D. So there was some confusion as to what grounds he was on his feet. I think, if you reflect back, you yourself were confused, because at one point you said he was speaking to a point of order and at another point you thought he was answering a question. He cannot have been doing both, and if he was correcting an answer there is a proper procedure. I think that it is harsh. We had supplementary questions to ask the Minister. There was a lot of concern\u2014not just on the part of members of the Opposition but it should be on the part of members of this whole House\u2014about answers given by Ministers and the appropriate way in which those answers are corrected. We had a situation with a Minister on his feet, but under what pretence or guise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deb6b985e86743a39fafb076f7d3ba02\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have consulted. The member was speaking to a point of order and not answering a question. There is no current supplementary question before the House, and I am prepared to call\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff39ba43cdd54d538d7d3b62f731cb87\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: For the sake of speed and of getting through question time, I seek leave now to make a personal statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4352e1b777646629584f9bcd52146bc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to make a personal explanation. It is in relation to this matter, I presume?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254238629eb5b46a5bbaba22d07a17e01\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is in relation to this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a6d070d5064903a3a7e40e8470f916\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9f75f2c2964997b2a4802f30b1e91a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288caacdcfd6d4569baa51b6f0a5b7a17\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member can only object. He cannot speak to it. Is there any objection? I call the Hon Chris Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ab10b739a724d24baf5b8bf3e9fab9e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: On quite a number of occasions I have been asked questions on this issue before and it has been raised in the House. I spoke recently at a meeting of mayors in Kaikoura on the issue of the dam on the Arnold River near Dobson. On each occasion I have made reference to the actions of Mr Denis Marshall when he was Minister of Conservation, and to having this issue tested in the High Court. I have used it, if one likes, as a sort of icon case about the difficulty of flooding or damaging conservation land. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMy recollection of the interview on Radio New Zealand is that I made reference to that. Now, as all members of this House know, I have not read the transcript yet. It may well give the impression that I was referring specifically to the Dobson case. If it does, I apologise to the House. In fact, I was referring to the precedent set in the Buller case, under the National Government. That is an issue I have referred to many times, and, perhaps, may well refer to again in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a55d4778c7e4b8ea251218e2817f2ad\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This Minister has compounded the problem. He was given, then, a clear chance to go to the transcript he has before him, and to read it out. That is what the question was about; that is what he was required to answer. Instead, he took the time to make a ministerial statement, and, in an evasive and obtuse way, he tried clumsily to get out of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294852e3aeba3449cbebb99707df663f6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We cannot discuss a personal explanation made to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022361162b777194012b24af2af249ad111\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe9b06130ce4b18b365e84f7434dc66\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I hope it is not going over this matter any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee11e2708a84a7bb3da3242c7b6f49e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. It relates to Standing Order 343, and members have a right to ask the Chair questions relating to the Standing Orders. That Standing Order is very clear: a member may make a personal explanation about matters of a personal nature, with leave of the House. I assume that when the Minister spoke to the mayors, at whichever gathering it was, it was as the Minister, and I assume that when he spoke in the radio interview, of which the transcript is provided, he was speaking as the Minister, so his statement should have been a ministerial statement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022860f111dea2143129a79ff523de669b1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I invite the member to read the second sentence in that Standing Order: \u201CA personal explanation may not be debated.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4bc30764c114c4480b8f8e5e563928d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly the point I raise. The Hon Chris Carter should not have used a personal explanation in the way he has. There is nothing personal about that at all. He is trying to explain his actions as a Minister. It seems that the Opposition\u2019s role of scrutinising a Minister is being subverted by his being allowed to pursue this particular Standing Order in his own defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241bd02d134214d32a071e1e0b6968aa4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. He sought leave from the House. I asked twice and leave was given. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c07ddf2b29ad422b8b596b9748c85d8b\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I also raise a matter, because I think we have missed the point here. Standing Order 343 is clearly about a personal explanation. The Minister was not giving a personal explanation; he was replying in his ministerial capacity to a matter under his responsibilities as a Minister. His statement should have been a ministerial statement. I think we need a clarification of this point before we move on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e7ed2fe67e14dc9a77e9698f9ea9d29\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The fact that the member is a Minister does not get around the fact that if a member is talking about words he has used, and whether he may have misled the House in using those words, that is a matter of a personal explanation. Whether one is saying that about what one said as a Minister or simply as an individual, the same conditions apply. It does not require a ministerial statement. For one thing, a personal explanation has to be believed by the House; a ministerial statement does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284c537360d1245538c1675296830e7f3\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bcf8ac2d774458b97faa89baa509de4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am ready to rule on this matter. I say, once again, that the Minister chose to ask for leave. I twice asked, and the House concurred. A personal explanation can be used about an answer a Minister has given. That is always the way in which a misleading reply is cleared up. The Minister chose to do that right now instead of later as it was suggested he might do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f16d63783ab545308a124e4fcfb50934\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I need guidance now because the supplementary question I am about to seek the call for is, in effect, debating the correctness of the statement that has just been made. I did not know anything about the background\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022320191d5403b46c19281f6770daa0852\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will give the member the perfect opportunity to ask his supplementary question and I will listen to it very carefully and liberally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7d3c7d630be4976b8318ffc83a38fdf\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: In the same Radio New Zealand interview, why did the Minister refer to it as \u201Ca little micro-dam\u201D, and four times referred to it as \u201Ca micro\u00A0\u00A0hydro scheme\u201D, when in all the expert literature, both from an engineering and sector point of view, they are schemes of less than 5 megawatts, when this is a 62 megawatt scheme, and noting that in my own electorate of Nelson 400 people have been put out of work because of the power shortages in our region, will he now not accept that he has consistently misled the public about his responsibility, and the importance of this scheme to the top of the south?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6abc97e6fa3404c839a3e9f086fcff1\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can give the member the assurance that I will now call it a middle-sized hydro scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aee828d199434494a9013e2d87a4c85d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question, I call the Hon Ken Shirley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa512f6cdccb449eade0c06af1f2f0df\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Why am I not getting the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a5a0ef6b17b456c99681591e9c4cf1f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has had a supplementary question, and Mr Shirley from ACT has not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da926c8f1ca04b9f864d0a005a1fc410\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82b38ad76e746fd9885b1990079015d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has had a supplementary question. Both I and the Clerk have it registered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ccb646daaa04768bda3a44dd0ffd91e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not. I do not care what he has written down there. I have not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53c1bc8572b44b59c91070759def14c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member assures me that he has not, I accept his word, and I will call him as soon as I have heard Mr Shirley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b96554966e4748c2ac3423f47ad90f2a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We did not slave to get ourselves to No. 3 in this country\u2019s politics, only to be taken fourth and fifth in this House. Those are the rules. Those are the precedents that go back a long, long way, and I am asserting them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d546e6dd28544d81b1c3e169e4c665a8\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, Winston.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234cd46ac3a0c4f7bb2e456f5ef9bdc7c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Shut up. Sit down. I am speaking. It is my point of order. Sit him down. [Interruption] I raise my point again, Mr Speaker. You know the order of precedence in this House. This is the second time today, I believe, that you have attempted to rearrange supplementary questions, or reassert them, or reorganise them. We do not accept that. I am now asking to have this question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab3bef4b0b1448979c64604b5a86b63a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Whether or not through error, I have already called Mr Shirley. I will call the member next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4015cec53bc49348622ec517b66874a\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile his repeated statement that the Conservation Act precludes him from engaging in land swaps that would allow the Department of Conservation to receive 700 hectares of prime forested land on Mount Buckley in exchange for some 250 hectares of cut-over lands in Card Creek, thus allowing the significant expansion of TrustPower\u2019s Arnold River power scheme; how does he reconcile those statements with the fact that last September he engaged in a land swap of Department of Conservation land in Bruce Bay to allow Te R\u016Bnanga o Maakawhio to build a marae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f688d3739bd64764b165b7da86ea57c5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That member\u2019s question contains a number of erroneous points. The one I would like to address principally is that the Mount Buckley area that is proposed for exchange has itself been logged for timber, and, in any case, is under no threat. It is hill-country forest, whereas the area that is to be flooded is valleyfloor kahikatea of which we have less than 5 percent left in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222283c74b8dce41069a37625013d113c6\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was very specific. It was how did he reconcile the land swap issue with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f69d5cbf0c941c88914a6225f8d17b1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, please be seated. The Minister addressed the question. He might not have given a satisfactory answer, but that is not my concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db586efdc81d47a4a79be54d8b499fc4\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. He did not address the question. The question was not in two parts; it was one question: how does he reconcile the fact that he is claiming there cannot be a land swap for Arnold River because it is Department of Conservation land, yet last September the Minister engaged in a land swap of Department of Conservation land to allow a marae to be built in Jacksons Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e896416967c44149715838c20fb30bb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is only using debating material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e0ba1b6c9dc42a988632b973cf47862\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Before I ask my supplementary question, am I right or wrong about having asked a question on this issue? I am right, am I not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281c9ad4dd4444d2598ff7aa219410557\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Two of us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aefdf6a54ec74e2db9c9e8a0c9e4a13f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Just say so, so that we can get things clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9fd82fd78ed4f30a8b5caa159b798d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f323ae9dd9ed4a8ea50e342a564c4278\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am telling you I was not\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022037df3fba6b846518e22e01e7132fef9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have accepted the member\u2019s word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d1183710ec740debc181eda43796e1e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and my point is that we will not take you reorganising question time as you please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d215210054407cb0223d4f0a1ce219\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c16ca7e5018441386cced8447800b05\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I think I am entitled to an apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b542af5bd44a5894e2646a05860ee8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I am getting sick and tired of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228946b1ad86924fe78ec35837a97f788e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: So am I.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc5fb1d805274ab39d457b025e2e43cc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Now the member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298ddc221df74491bbccfa34415554375\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e0782e134cc48b3b3f26b0efa4a7039\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am on my feet and I am ruling. I say to the member that I checked to see whether he had asked a question. I had listed it. I carefully asked my assistant. He had listed New Zealand First. A member of his own party came to the Table to check, because there was some confusion about it. I said that if I had made an error I accepted the member\u2019s word, and I have accepted the member\u2019s word. I then called Mr Shirley. There has not been any change. In future, of course, the member will be called third.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e3c8ba77a4c489fb7f39d1c7e6bf944\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That is not my point. My point of order is that we do not accept your decision in respect of Mr Parker, and I certainly do not in this case as well. That is twice in the space of four questions. We will not accept that. I ask you to explain why it happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de7a59cbd16e4625aac677fd753a0e4b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. Now the member will stand, withdraw, and apologise. I will not have the ruling about Mr Parker questioned, because it is consistent with the rulings I have given over 4 years, and I have already said to the member that I have accepted his word on the other matter. We have finished that particular point. I want now to come to the member\u2019s supplementary question, which he is entitled to ask.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef1255731ec4dccba5aa765fb8e84b3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not wish to have Mr Peters expelled from this Chamber but I ask you to reflect on the issue of consistency when you consider your treatment of Mr Prebble, who, in contesting the application of the Standing Orders and having an exchange with you, was not asked to withdraw or apologise but was summarily thrown out of this Chamber. When Mr Peters did the same thing\u2014and again I am not saying that Mr Peters should be thrown out\u2014he was treated with some considerable leniency and was then asked to withdraw and apologise. I suggest that what is good for one leader should be good for the other and, indeed, for all members of this House. I ask you to reflect on that sincerely, and to reflect on whether you treated Mr Prebble a little harshly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d84657c575f347aa80e0608b09798574\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed you did call upon Mr Prebble to withdraw and apologise, and in fact he did do so and then carried on yelling from his seat at you, on a regular and continual basis for a period of time, which Mr Peters did not do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f396faabda9a43c2a249567f639e62b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is precisely correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c94becc6d0fa498d82075c12f70acd80\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister had before him the transcript beginning with the words \u201CThis project\u201D, why did he not read it to the House, or is it that the transcript again states everything that he has attempted to explain to this House since he was asked to qualify what he said?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218563254dac244d98d3ec321e345cb43\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat to this House that if I gave the impression I was talking about the Dobson project, I apologise. What I was referring to was the precedent set by the Buller case\u2014something that I have referred to often.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a6afcc238740a198295a7d092ba508\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that Dobson is the only site on the West Coast on which a hydroelectricity dam could be built that would make economic and environmental sense, as implied by TrustPower; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237a7ab1eaa7e4f18a9ef64c9206e4af7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, a number of options are available and I refer the member again to the article that I am about to table in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e52f777940349bda1e2a98fb0e7c666\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister visited the site of the Dobson hydro scheme; if so, what are his impressions concerning its environmental robustness?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e20c67718db4c58a67e34c9c0b6efb7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, but I am going there in a couple of weeks\u2019 time. However, I do have full confidence in the ecological reports describing the area, including those done by TrustPower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d44eaef75cb4ee9a21c99391140d554\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: If conservation land is so sacrosanct that its status can never be changed, why is there before this House a bill in the name of the Hon John Tamihere, the Reserves and Other Lands Disposal Bill, that changes the conservation status of eight different blocks of land, including ecological reserve; and why does this Minister simply not come clean and say this is not a legal issue but a political issue in which Labour is being held to ransom by the Greens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022171c83b62f6a4a0fb842654394217134\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That member once held the position of Minister of Conservation, and he, I am sure, knows that sections 7 and 16 of the Conservation Act relate to the disposal of conservation land. As the Buller case, which I have referred to a number of times in this House, showed in the High Court, to change that would require a major change. That member, when he was the Minister of Conservation, added 1,800 hectares to the Dobson site. Why does he want to destroy it now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a84dc63c5344864bb44532ccd60cbeb\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a map of the area involved in the Dobson dam, which shows quite clearly that the area that it is proposed for it is nowhere near the area that was added by the previous National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1fd8f78ca404730a75f4af507ff3a49\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister tell Radio New Zealand that he would need a law change to allow the Dobson River scheme to proceed, using an infinitesimal fraction of the Department of Conservation\u2019s gorse and broom, when section 18(7) of the Conservation Act states specifically that the Minister may, by notice in the Gazette, vary or revoke the purpose, or all or any of the purposes, for which an ecological area is held, and it shall thereafter be held accordingly? I urge the Minister to consider the consequences of deliberately misleading the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229aa936763edb43dbad21e9bd3424920a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please ask the question, and do not make a comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caf9f9020fff46599bf9c3310ee7e79c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I refer again to the Buller case, which showed that, under the current Act, one cannot destroy ecological land for any purpose. One would have to have a law change to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9caf91fc0a145819fbf1ae6ac9a147e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the High Court decision in respect of the Ngakawau case, which made it plain that the Minister had the discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6cbcf07c9bf4cb9860c3fa38edf834a\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: Further to the question from my colleague Mr Ken Shirley, why will the Minister not consent to the Arnold River scheme proceeding to build a hydro dam by swapping Department of Conservation land, as he did last September when he swapped prime rimu forest in Jacksons Bay to allow the building of a marae?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243cd056cae14401fa3b60cd1e3409a05\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not prepared to swap land of lesser value for land of more value that would be destroyed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fecd2bfbcb954dde89de09085e0e7846\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Given that one of the Minister\u2019s reasons for turning down the Dobson hydro dam proposal was that conservation groups would be outraged, did he take into account the views of any other groups and their probable reaction\u2014for example, the people of the West Coast?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc4ee392a4a246a68b8e3bfda2b0e95d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I was delighted to drive 2\u00BD hours from Christchurch to Kaikoura, and then 2\u00BD hours back to Christchurch, last week to meet the mayors of the upper South Island to discuss that very issue. One of the hallmarks of my ministry, I hope, is a willingness and a desire to engage with anyone interested in conservation issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a388ed04b218428b877380e386ad6e4d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could I ask the Minister whether he will now read out from the transcript the comments beginning with \u201CThis project\u201D, or can I take his declining to do so as clear evidence that he has misled this House deliberately?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022541ef2232c134b778f8294e6db4068b9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Like, probably, most members of this House, I am very keen to see question time end soon, so I am not prepared to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d552e2f845ac4b7ab7ddbd3292f810a6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: So too am I, and that reply does not help. I want the Minister now to address the question, or I will take further steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b935220857024c2ba5d9bf01aa6e08ae\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244569bd304f74fc58d9fcb6fb4346659\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I first asked the Minister whether he would read those comments out, and the answer to that is yes or no. Secondly, I asked whether I can I take his refusal to read them out as clear evidence of his attempt to mislead this House. He has given us half an answer. I want the answer to the first question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d96414486a49471c856bbfe581bea4b5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the Minister say \u201CNo\u201D quite clearly. That addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022319c9c18ab4b49df8aad28fa5cb5d1a8\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is pretty rudimentary stuff. I asked whether the Minister would read those comments out, and the answer to that would be yes or no. I then asked whether I could take an answer of no to mean that he had deliberately attempted to mislead the House. Is that answer no to the first question, no to the second question, or half an answer to both questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252d9614c05b64143a7dee5bf30838cc8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am now losing patience. The member was asked a specific question. He said \u201CNo\u201D, and there cannot be any clearer answer than that, except to say yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222239c3e53c714e3ba3984b5b50743a9a\u0022\u003EElectricity\u2014Savings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224291a4272ca24a239269448cd824172e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: Are any incentives being developed by the Government to encourage consumers to make the 10 percent electricity savings called for by Winter Power Task Force coordinator Dr Patrick Strange; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00224178567092a640b58b90584525a71b76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224178567092a640b58b90584525a71b76\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E Incentives for power savings in the form of buy-back programmes from electricity retailers will be part of the industry\u2019s response to the prospect of power shortages this winter. Those programmes were successful in 2001, and will add to the existing financial incentive for saving electricity, which is a lower power bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e605d1bb6be43df858ada87e781a30d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Will those incentives apply from yesterday\u2014the date of the 10 percent savings target announcement\u2014or should householders postpone any savings until they know how much the incentive is, and when it will apply from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022addcbc45f46b46f4971555ab128cebc4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Consumers certainly should not postpone making any savings, because they will get a lower power bill as a result, and will reduce the chances of problems in winter. I imagine that retailers will roll out their various programmes over the next week or two. They will include programmes that operate at the individual customer level, and those that operate at the community level, where the savings are gathered and returned into the community in some project or other, as they were in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b495530c2ac41fe9874e2fe4970800a\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: How easy is it for domestic electricity customers to save 10 percent on their power bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261af2a688a364ff09f12a2baf10dfffc\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority advises that domestic electricity consumers can save 10 percent on their power bill relatively easily by switching off appliances at the wall when they are not in use, taking short showers instead of baths, switching off unnecessary lighting, and so on. Information on simple measures to save electricity will be made more widely available in a substantial advertising campaign beginning this weekend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282bbe10690034689861f30888f7ee601\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has been made towards the provisions in the National Energy Efficiency and Conservation Strategy to encourage solar water heating\u2014namely, a market transformation programme, with a target of 10,000 new installations a year, and a Government purchase programme to stimulate the solar water heater market\u2014and would that not have made a difference if it had started last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d4e7d0e9adc4b82a9f299964154e0e7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government hopes to make announcements in regard to those matters in the next week or two. They are useful: solar water heaters, all those things, help to contribute; when one starts to do the arithmetic, one finds that they are not hugely useful, but everything helps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222695c93bc3a41c68e332485cd9f3a05\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with the proposal from Meridian Energy to supply its customers with draught-stoppers, energy-saver light bulbs, and hot water cylinder wraps, and how many draught-stoppers, energy-saver light bulbs, and hot water cylinder wraps would it take to meet the 10 percent savings target, and where do people sign up for the delivery of those goods?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022619c51e8e60740b682706a291e635a74\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: In order, the answers to the questions are: that is Meridian\u2019s business; quite a lot; and I do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5909b08efcf42a0a8fcc8a4b7ebc9f9\u0022\u003ESocial Policy\u2014Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e3cac7f14564720b7ceadc9812f2ee3\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Social Services and Employment: What initiatives is the Government taking to improve social policy development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00229d67327a9f08400b82038bddcadaf589\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d67327a9f08400b82038bddcadaf589\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Social Services and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E This morning I announced an $8.6 million package of initiatives to ensure social policy development is supported by high-quality social research. The centrepiece is a project to encourage social science research networking, leadership, and collaboration within and between university and public service sectors. The project will encourage social science research excellence, help identify and plug key research gaps, and ensure public sector policy development is informed by timely, relevant, and excellent New Zealand research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df54bc792dfe4361b63ec0f7b9c8cb19\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What examples is the Minister aware of where social research has contributed to better outcomes for New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212bdbd4410f64af7b9559595edc7d7ec\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: One example would be the evaluation of the work-for-the-dole scheme in the late 1990s, which proved that the scheme failed. It actually prevented people from finding work, and ensured that they stayed on the dole longer. I congratulate Roger Sowry on commissioning the work-for-the-dole evaluation, which proved that National\u2019s current policy is a failure, and will be a failure in the future if it ever gets a chance to implement it. It should be grateful for this research.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c364716f73743678fc7b1d39d7fbd56\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Why does one of the Minister\u2019s social policy initiatives involve spending $400,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money on research into the increase in the number of sickness and invalids beneficiaries when he has previously supposedly given definitive reasons for the dramatic increase in numbers, and why can he not just accept that this Government\u2019s slack welfare policies are the real reason behind the massive increases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adc508ea06ed43dead08b0728c2dbdc1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: What I have said in the past is that we have an idea of why we think these benefit numbers are increasing but that we need to do definitive research, and that is what the money is for. I understand that the member\u2019s party intends to introduce work testing of sickness and invalids beneficiaries again, if it ever gets a chance to do so. I am appalled by that policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d46f6e938e84c0bb342372af28f1928\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Do those policy initiatives include significant means for reducing the 621-day investigation period of an urgent Child, Youth and Family Services case, or will the Minister continue to publicly wring his hands, agree that it is not good enough, and accept no responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221064a395871d45f395fb9cd9ad845d0f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The member may have missed part of the discussion about the case that she raises in which I said that we do not accept that length of time. In the performance agreement the department now has a maximum of 6 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266d5a76fc50148b2855fce84692bf7c5\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Government\u2019s stated commitment to partnership with the community sector, why is the Minister ignoring the large potential resource of community-based research and, instead, focusing his new programme on funding and increased support for academics, especially given the fact that there are already 300-plus policy analysts at the Ministry of Social Development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f186eb76d7c44aac9d85db4fc74acecc\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: It is appropriate that we do focus the bulk of our work on the people who do the research, and they happen to be in tertiary institutions. But if the member reads my speech from this morning she will see that we made a great deal of effort to include consultation with the community on the way that this research will need to be done. That is why a large number of community-based people are at the social policy conference today and tomorrow. This is the single biggest social policy conference that I can remember in the history of this country, and they are there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca3207971c4243be993587d93219edc2\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the Minister\u2019s comment this morning at the social policy research conference when he said: \u201CHistorically, social research by Government agencies has been disparate.\u201D, can he confirm to the House whether the Government plans to absorb the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs and the Ministry of Youth Affairs into the Ministry of Social Development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3a9c7be10a848bf8e191e3df7e8b285\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm to the House that we do not intend to absorb those ministries into the Ministry of Social Development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228a3b436c3f4248168268940a31ac296d\u0022\u003EPolice\u2014Car Crash Inquiries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220346c501d7b64c39b52b3a96d46ff946\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Do the reported press comments by Police Association president Greg O\u2019Connor regarding \u201Cthe State failing to deliver justice to its people\u201D, because of the police\u2019s inability to carry out car crash inquiries, have substance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e96fdf879edb45cb8acb4bbc052ae340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e96fdf879edb45cb8acb4bbc052ae340\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E No. Police policy around responses to traffic crashes has remained unchanged since it was formulated in the early 1990s. The commissioner expects police to respond to all fatal and injury accidents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e89b8e903442a7addeaa689252421c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that the New Zealand Herald article of 28 April that reads: \u201CPolice in parts of Auckland have given up investigating minor car crashes and are telling victims to deal with the offenders themselves.\u201D, or, further, reports that victims of a random shooting out of a car parked on a victim\u2019s property had to wait 8 hours before the police attended, or, for example, the sending of a form letter from police to victims of vehicle accidents advising those involved that they are on their own, are examples of proactive policing, or what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a999b708d55e49efab1604cb60363da1\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think that any of those examples are acceptable. However, I tell the member that the police have been using the same standard letter for a long while. It was last modified on 14 September 1999\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878d78d7ace049ce9610df85e6cef9f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am asking the Minister whether those reports have substance and whether they are true. He is attempting to give us a diatribe of what happened in the dim, dark past, at a time for which he was not responsible as Minister. That is my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257d28236035442ff8a65a3064cc5c240\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is not well based. The Minister did address the question. I heard him do so myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022965a3f180ecb443a9e05436b4709b381\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Commissioner of Police stated that the ability to respond to reported offences is due to lack of resources; if not, what information has the Minister received about the current level of resources available to individual police districts?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b35bfa6679a04e189bb16b06c38bdd1a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The commissioner and I held a media conference on this matter yesterday. The commissioner stated that it is not a matter of resources. The Government funds the police, and the commissioner sets district budgets. For example, the budget for the Auckland police district has increased significantly between the 1999-2000 year and 2002-03. Over that time the personnel budget has increased by 9 percent, the operational budget by 38 percent, and the total budget by 14 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4ebe2034eaa43609bcf2796dbd5841b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister categorically state that there are no other crimes that the police are telling people to investigate themselves, and is this not just the Government\u2019s solution to try to lower the crime rates by having less crime reported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7f72eb051ab4b24816579e7bb6ea297\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot give a categorical denial of that. From time to time police resources are stretched. However, I would say that the police are doing far better. This Government has set standards for them that burglaries should be attended within 24 hours. The police are doing well achieving that, compared with what happened under the National Party, which was abysmal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c2fdbacfcd047f0898d7a0843d32b06\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister make that statement in respect of police resourcing, when there is only a 40 percent clearance of reported crime, first of all, and when every member of this Parliament dealing with any region or district has been told by the local police that police are under-resourced and under extraordinary stress?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d887db96e6fc4659b6d37b2f909ef1c2\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The amount of resolved crime has been higher under this Government than under any other Government, and I have to say the police officers who want more resources want to catch more crooks always, and they use every opportunity they can to lobby. The commissioner lobbies me, and we deliver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e35e206b7304fd0a9d077314e471226\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the raising of the bar for crimes that warrant police attention will soon extend to other offences where victims may tend to over-exaggerate the crime in order to compete for the attention of a police force that is seemingly overwhelmed by the sheer volume of crime; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e8194d30c864e408339d9f8ae12b23e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I think some victims do exaggerate the nature of the crime, and that is because crime impacts on people at different levels. I seek leave to table a letter, last modified on 14 July 1999, from the Balmoral Police Station.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022519f339a4cde43eb826e9d107616d9e4\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two documents. The first shows that fewer than one in 10 burglaries in Auckland are being resolved under this Government, and the second is a report from the Insurance Council of New Zealand describing the police as under-resourced, underfunded, and under stress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a0ad5eda49b4c77a1416856311ce48d\u0022\u003EGenetic Engineering\u2014Risk to GDP\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248910f0a76ab474a828bd2a60d6ad246\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Why did Treasury advice to him describe the range of impacts on GDP from use of genetically modified organisms as being from a \u201Cbest-case scenario\u201D of plus 2.5 percent to a \u201Cworst case scenario\u201D of minus 1.3 percent when an April 2003 BERL-AERU report on this topic includes scenarios with greater risks to GDP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba91ab33e99a4ae0aaf610e7476a365a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba91ab33e99a4ae0aaf610e7476a365a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E BERL-AERU was asked to consider the full range of theoretically possible outcomes. Treasury in reporting to Ministers chose, sensibly, to focus on likely outcomes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299033a1395cd4783b08e8a553ef74068\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Was he aware that US research on productivity from genetically engineered (GE) soya beans shows they produce, on average, across all states, 5 percent less than conventional soya beans, when he accepted Treasury advice that the scenario assuming zero productivity gains from a GE crop was not likely and should be ignored?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a278c0d23e064c9da23f360cbb182d09\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The reason for ignoring such an unlikely outcome is that it is very unlikely that farmers would continue to plant crops or use genetically modified (GM) stock that continues to show zero productivity growth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225421bfc966c745ee942d67725026bf78\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: How is the Government planning to maximise the benefits and minimise the risks of genetically modified organisms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccb74a4f1dab416ca82ab2f3232807c6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government will institute an extremely rigorous case by case approvals process that will ensure that New Zealand can build on its strong biotechnology sector, while maintaining strong environmental safeguards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d993b9f4fbca4aa7a543bfb8b9502338\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the economic reports in question are based on fundamental assumptions about New Zealand, does he consider that the New Zealand environment is, in reality, clean, green, and GM-free, and what evidence has he to support his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022836097d35c0c40ab944e7ce92982fa51\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, and this is quite relevant to the research, the perception of people overseas is very strongly that New Zealand is clean and green, but equally we all know there are many examples of where we are not so clean and not so green. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ebde4b26774403aa31e22121d6e0120\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with recent Treasury advice stating: \u201CIt is unlikely that overseas consumers would know, or bring to mind at point of sale, the GM attributes of New Zealand, when deciding whether to purchase New Zealand\u2019s export products.\u201D; if so, does he also agree that this shows any negative real-world effect of the release of GM organisms in New Zealand on gross domestic product (GDP), at least as far as export earnings are concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a73814bc0894b70ab8a76ef6caaa5a5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed, there is evidence in the report that demonstrates that people often did not recognise GM-free labelling and make decisions on that basis. There was also a tendency for people to say they would respond to GM free, but would be less likely to do so in terms of paying the price increase in actual practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229c47fcfbe7244db92efe781b2c4eb2a\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Was he aware of the international survey commissioned by Discovery Channel, which showed that 58 percent of all those polled in eight nations are unwilling to eat GM food, when he accepted Treasury advice that the scenario showing no adverse market reaction at all was credible and should be further considered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224de52d842bb74e76b4c9919d1b824d2b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of such surveys. I am also aware the member claimed that the most likely outcome of GM free was 7.5 percent growth of GDP, when in fact that extreme scenario was under the assumptions, firstly, that New Zealand was GM free; and, secondly, that either all other countries were not, but nobody knew about it, or were and had no productivity gains. Either way, it seems extremely unlikely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022194cd7cd85f34736b03b7f19df0dfb45\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: How could Treasury credibly conclude in its advice to him that it was highly likely GM-food exports would have no effect on market access or price, when the European Union was about to introduce a comprehensive new labelling regime that will require identification of all food produced by GM technology, and which will lower the threshold for GM contamination? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf436b56a664a22b3cc2565dd89c5ef\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The European Union, of course, is also one of the largest producers of genetically modified food in the world, and there are always questions around any action by the European Union as to whether it has got to do with a trade barrier or something to do with food safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb093952b9e48acb31e9c970f43e821\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: How can genetic engineering be in any way good for New Zealand\u2019s economy, when all realistic scenarios show negative impacts on farmers, unless one assumes that GE has no negative impact on export demand\u2014a scenario that has not occurred anywhere in the world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b326c2a8e74344b7bcb1b692d22f9000\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, the last assumption is wrong. If I go back to the case previously noted\u2014if the same scenario were tested, on the assumption there were productivity gains from genetic modification, the net benefit to New Zealand was not plus 7.5 percent, but negative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223c517e39072746ba92c1129d2ee9fd88\u0022\u003ESevere Acute Respiratory Syndrome\u2014District Health Boards\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc61db60afb455fa7645ae3dc56434e\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (NZ National\u2014Kaikoura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has every district health board by now a comprehensive action plan for community and hospital care of patients with severe acute respiratory syndrome, and a budget to meet that action plan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00224b0c5823dc7244fd9d8177ea5e13575b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b0c5823dc7244fd9d8177ea5e13575b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. Every board now has a comprehensive action plan for the community and hospital care of patients with severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars) and a budget to meet that action plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206e3838440e442f6bc205ab6ba6f205b\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when the admission of a suspected Sars patient to Auckland Hospital prompted an urgent review of procedures on 19 March, are staff there still scared, and why has Dr Colin McArthur described the hospital as \u201Chaving a physically inadequate environment\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022372f6ba0c372445694f756b22de5b37d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: In the week since Sars was first notified as a disease many changes have been made in the handling of this case, as have been described and explained to the member in the briefings given in my office and the regular updates that have been given to all Opposition spokespeople. However, Colin McArthur has also said he believes that Auckland Hospital is well prepared to handle a case of Sars, which we will inevitably get in New Zealand at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1b2a7aec55f4bd48fb0bbad8a1975e2\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any comments that nurses feel vulnerable because they do not have the resources to assist patients and are at risk of catching the disease themselves; if so, what feedback has she received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c92fd539fa5a43d88b2e9f9f66d13ec7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Nurses Organisation informed me today that nurses are anxious to provide good care and it is generally satisfied that they have the knowledge to provide that care safely. The organisation is comfortable that nurses have the knowledge and the equipment needed, and that nurses around New Zealand are generally expressing satisfaction with the preparedness of hospitals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd5065d65a445469f90e7c46016ea39\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Notwithstanding the importance of internal community and hospital care, is the Minister confident in her border control provisions, given a recent newspaper report with regard to a man treated for Sars who arrived at Auckland airport from Thailand \u201Ccoughing his guts out\u201D, who was not screened by officials, and who had to admit himself to hospital after arriving in Christchurch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfbc3795d7174b9e9c788a25d71f68b2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There have been two suspected cases of Sars to date. That was not one of them. However, as the member probably now knows, we have nurses at our major airports who are checking people for symptoms as they come through. Coughing and hacking on their own are not symptoms of Sars. Sars has other symptoms, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e21061800c44417b5a7bbd845bd16af\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister deny that New Zealand does not have enough face masks of a standard to guarantee the protection of all nurses and doctors against Sars, and can she give a guarantee that New Zealand will have enough before this disease hits the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298e64974d8464ae08608a67a6139af14\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the member was unable to attend the briefing that was given this morning. However, her researcher was there and he asked that question. He was assured that at this stage we do have enough masks in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4e4581cfdcc445994e23f2ac23a817b\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Why did it take a television documentary to expose the inadequate environment for treating suspected Sars patients at Auckland Hospital, given that the Minister has described the arrival of Sars in New Zealand as inevitable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff26a2fc76194144813192a0d08b3e9c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly did not take the Sunday programme to expose any inadequacies at Auckland Hospital. In fact, David Sage, who is the chief medical officer for the Auckland board, said that the programme was disappointingly alarmist. The member raised the issue of one room that was shown on the Sunday programme. She may be interested to know that Auckland Hospital has a total of 30 negative-pressure beds, and there are 43 ventilated beds in the Auckland region. That does not sound like a region that is unprepared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b793772f292e4efbaf5c252e1fc90cbf\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Staffing Review Group\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5df3580a20948e4bc71efaae7b67932\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is the Government taking to implement the recommendations of the School Staffing Review Group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c07bd90616344b39af2a314277e3d34b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c07bd90616344b39af2a314277e3d34b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E A substantial 774 extra teachers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3cd958c300d40cbb13611b01e3b0e34\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government invest in initiatives to improve teacher supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275d19b10caba4be6bcb0bff8fbb0e750\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, $22 million extra, which is a 50 percent increase over 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291d4d88cbf214741b3b782cbf57bffbf\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point in funding additional secondary teaching positions when positions that already exist cannot be filled or are being filled with teachers of marginal quality, and is it not true that if schools fill these new positions with the latter, or worse, the system will be negatively affected now and into the future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022797fa6c0580b496193f977daed9859eb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am really pleased to tell the member that there are over 200 extra secondary trainees, including nearly 100 in Auckland, where the real shortage is this year. One of the good side effects of the slight disruptions we had about 12 months ago is that we have highlighted there were a lot of teaching jobs, and a lot of people have enrolled in training for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee755ce764c04a2482c3a18f6899cab3\u0022\u003EDomain Names\u2014New Zealand Way Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddcf9e49bfd94a1194c4851bf8d792fe\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: What, if anything, was paid for the domain name newzealand.com now registered to the New Zealand Way Ltd, and who approved the purchase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee75b0c48b5a49f2a80aefb62c43176a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee75b0c48b5a49f2a80aefb62c43176a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E The newzealand.com domain name was purchased by New Zealand Way Ltd on behalf of its member organisations for US$500,000. As far as that relates to my ministerial responsibility, I say the board of Tourism New Zealand approved its share of the purchase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225192f29d61dd4b7dbaa4abe69f59b9e3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think that this dot.com purchase costing roughly NZ$1 million was a good buy, especially since other Governments such as the United States Government do not own domain names like usa.com or WhiteHouse.com; if so, why does he think it is a good buy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266fcdbf58e82431eaec9fcfc97105abf\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was a good buy. There is no question that this domain will provide an invaluable commercial entry portal into New Zealand for those interested in tourism, commerce, and industry. It has been reported that, for instance, an offer of US$1 million was turned down by the owners of switzerland.com, and the South African Government offered Virtual Countries US$10 million for southafrica.com. It has also been reported that korea.com was sold for US$5 million to Thrunet, Korea\u2019s largest Internet service provider. On the evidence, and certainly given the function that newzealand.com will perform for New Zealand commerce and industry, it was a sound investment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a720ff83d9744cb9aebfc378cc826b9\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister reaffirm why the newzealand.com address was purchased?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab52f243c7174a3b9d3e46c9bb2b7a9f\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the newzealand.com address is, as I indicated, the obvious single point of entry for anyone online who has an interest in New Zealand for the purposes of tourism, trade, or investment. That portal is an important global marketing tool for us, and ownership will ensure that it contains up-to-date and accurate information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221222f101f8e14ea4b85b109596ea2170\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Government or New Zealand Way Ltd give any thought to buying nz.com, gonewzealand.com, newzealand.co.nz, or a host of other domain names, used and unused\u2014some of which are owned by New Zealanders\u2014that could have been picked up for much less than newzealand.com; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022997c0de82d9943638d55f772b4be8c86\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding of the decision taken\u2014and I believe it was a sound one\u2014is that it recognises that newzealand.com reflects the clearly understood and recognised first port of call, as similar domain names do for the countries that I referred to previously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268711aeafd534e988baf8014dfedee28\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d4a9c0e674e40dc9354b107a66733c7\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Clearly the member is not a regular Internet user, but many millions of other people are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022228682878441477d932dd5e4fb6cf4a8\u0022\u003EElectricity\u2014Disruption of Supply\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c7ecd2a1044794a2b41051f42bd5e1\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Energy: Will the Minister inform the House of all of the implications that he has been advised of if consumers fail to achieve the necessary savings to avoid disruption to New Zealand\u2019s power supply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u00225dc3dd10e87d4d6aa57147d0fba95b4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dc3dd10e87d4d6aa57147d0fba95b4f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Energy):\u003C/span\u003E The implications will obviously depend on the extent of any electricity shortages that might arise if demand continues to grow, and supply continues to be constrained. At minimum, people can expect the inconvenience of hot water cuts. However, if the low inflows to the hydro lakes continue, and if the savings are not made now, then it is entirely possible there will be more severe economic and social disruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a866ba1288d948288cf9c68cca0c01bb\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give the House an assurance that people on low incomes, and elderly folk on fixed incomes, will be able to live reasonably comfortably and not suffer undue hardship?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd70db72e6184ac399db5f0f7d9f3fd4\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It would be remiss of me to give any assurance, because I do not know what the forecast for rain will be over the next several months. I tell the member that saving now will significantly reduce the chances of people being inconvenienced later. I also tell the member that although we had no blackouts or hot water cuts to speak of in 2001, in 1992 we had hot water cuts that regularly went for 18 hours a day. If one goes back a little earlier to 1973 we had blackouts and constraints in broadcasting time. If one goes back even earlier than that to 1958 and 1947, there were serious blackouts. So this has been part of our history. The real key is to make sure that this year we do not suffer what we did in those earlier times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4740a97eb4a4514991761b95f318275\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Besides power savings, what other measures can help reduce the risk of electricity shortages this winter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b040be939cfb4b599dd77c8d9b3d610e\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is important that demand for electricity is reduced where possible. But we can also take steps to increase supply. To that end the electricity industry\u2019s winter power task force is overseeing efforts to secure new supplies of fuel for thermal electricity generation, and is actively exploring options for short-term increases to generation capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a404be05aa14430a9cacfc04ba833bef\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the formula used by generators to calculate the highest spot price finalised yesterday at Haywards of some $991.63 per megawatt indicates that the price later in the winter, should those savings not be achieved, could climb as high as $3,000 per megawatt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b82e22543f4716a7143b226d2b7d1a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that there is no formula used in the electricity market. It is simply a matter of bids and offers. It is clear that when one gets a very, very high spot price settlement, as we did briefly yesterday and, as I recall, the day before, then that shows that hydro generators are trying very hard not to generate at all. It also means thermal generation must run as far and as fast as possible. The return of the Huntly power station to full capacity in recent days has been useful in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a4348cf373c42c186b3cee6def9be46\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that this country needs extra capacity fairly urgently, and that the Resource Management Act, the Conservation Act, and now the Kyoto Protocol are presenting huge barriers to achieve that; if so, what is he doing about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad3cca2af9c147e58fd120bbbf493694\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do accept that the country needs capacity at the rate of about 150 megawatts a year, and there is something like, from memory, 1,600 megawatts that has already been publicly announced as prospective. I do not accept that the Kyoto Protocol or the Resource Management Act constrains development\u2014except for renewables, where I think the Resource Management Act is a problem, particularly for wind, and that is why the Government has already announced its intention to change the legislation in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002200c058e1d6994f8a9e0f86d92411d9bf\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f009abe529f485295541f91ec8fa0ca\u0022\u003EElectricity\u2014Inquiry into Industry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b55e34bd4474be2aa1037152faff850\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Commerce Committee: How much time does the committee consider it will need to allocate to its inquiry into the electricity industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6b084893ada43528c01b49396d9e874\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6b084893ada43528c01b49396d9e874\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Chairperson of the Commerce Committee):\u003C/span\u003E That is a matter for the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b6cf9b77a4b43918d4539f38d43d858\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224cdfa0e365b14d82ba3414167af6f816\u0022\u003EQuestions for Written Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc93118fc98d481ebd79f49b357bd615\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc93118fc98d481ebd79f49b357bd615\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to reply to Mr Hide. There were four questions mentioned. Two were answered yesterday, one was answered this afternoon, and the fourth is awaiting the Minister\u2019s signature, hopefully to be done very soon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae41bf7f2b27474ab46f64b386dd3f6f\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022625195c44aaf437a832a002eed543fe8\u0022\u003EEnergy Crisis\u2014Management\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00224ab548b540d8451db99e4bcc5013b056\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ab548b540d8451db99e4bcc5013b056\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from the Leader of the Opposition seeking to debate under Standing Order 376 the management of the energy crisis this coming winter. The urgent debate procedure is a means of debating a particular case involving ministerial responsibility that has already occurred, not a means of debating a general forthcoming issue. As there is no particular case of recent occurrence the application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022db52054b73b84fd6bc2927940f7ac8d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db52054b73b84fd6bc2927940f7ac8d5\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have listened to your reason. Last night on television the Minister, and in fact the Acting Prime Minister, emerged from Cabinet, which he chaired yesterday, to announce that the Government would be looking for much greater savings\u2014unprecedented savings of 10 percent for ordinary New Zealanders and 15 percent for the State sector. That seems to me to be a decision that was taken by Cabinet. It was certainly announced in a way that indicated it was a decision taken by the Government and we want to know from you, if we cannot have the opportunity to debate this now, at what point do the announced savings get to such a level that you deem it is the Government\u2019s responsibility? Your ruling was not that it was not important enough to debate, because of the time it would take the House; your ruling was that it was not a Government decision. Well surely it was a Government decision, because it was announced post-Cabinet as a Government decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294f22a6806c143289c5da1dbb65d0349\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I ruled\u2014and I said\u2014that as there is no particular case of recent occurrence, the application is declined. Of course, if anything significant comes up in the future I will look at this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f30042aa137467a9abdc08fe98d12ee\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225754ab636734f5f9f96ee65ebb4503d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a debatable ruling. I have ruled, but I want to finish what I have to say, and that was that as far as I was concerned, this did not meet the test.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u00228221930dfa14474f98cb37ae4a9a5cd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228221930dfa14474f98cb37ae4a9a5cd8\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have confused me. You are now saying this is not a case of recent occurrence. Certainly, the fact that we are entering into a power crisis has been speculated on for some time, but the decision to move the savings substantially, up to 10 and 15 percent, certainly was recent. That was announced just yesterday. I turned the radio on this morning and heard a whole range of people debating the new announcements, and debating whether the 15 percent was achievable in the public sector with regard to the health and safety aspects. Indeed, in this very building I have had staff express concern to me that the back stairwells, emergency exits, etc., have had their lights turned off. They have raised that as a health and safety issue. So I would have thought the decision that was made yesterday was certainly a recent occurrence, and I cannot see how you can rule that it was not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af5e7ad222e7460b9a1b235387bc3cf1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I shall read the first sentence of Mr English\u2019s letter: \u201CI request an urgent debate under Standing Order 376 on the management of the energy crises facing New Zealand this coming winter.\u201D I would suggest to the member that that is not the appropriate way to word that particular letter. It does not specify a matter of recent occurrence and on that ground I rule it out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221568dda1d9a44cb786b1ffdec349375b\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Television Service Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c83653a52b8043bda34f455202891fb1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000321\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 April.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fbdccfda01ae47df96f287df23e461b0\u0022\u003ESchedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002298fcfab178f8414c9624c1041d1a3dd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298fcfab178f8414c9624c1041d1a3dd2\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Schedules 1 and 2 go into great detail about appointments to the electoral college that will appoint the directors of the M\u0101ori Television Service, and schedule 2 further spells out the duties of these directors. I really would urge the Minister to take a call, because so far in the Committee stage of the debate the Minister has totally refused to take a call on some very serious questions raised by members from this side of the Chamber. Schedule 2 spells out very clearly the duties of directors. They have to be competent and I want the Minister to take a call to tell the Committee whether, for example, Derek Fox and the current board of directors, if they are going to operate under this schedule, would be removed from office, because one of the reasons given in schedule 2 for a director being removed from office is that \u201Cthe director has brought the Service into disrepute\u201D. I would argue that the fiasco of the existing M\u0101ori Television Service and the fact that it appointed a fraudster, John Davy, and was never able to accept the consequences, has brought the M\u0101ori Television Service into disrepute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other question I want to ask is whether Derek Fox\u2019s failure to disclose interest would, under this bill, mean that he needed to resign. While he was the chairman of the existing M\u0101ori television establishment board he took part in the interviewing of candidates for the job of chief executive officer, and nowhere during the process was any candidate made aware that he might have an interest in the position\u2014and I do not know whether his fellow directors or the Minister knew of his intention either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EClause 4D in Part 2 of schedule 2 states quite clearly: \u201CA director who is interested in a transaction, or proposed transaction of, or other matter relating to the Service\u2014(a) must not vote or take part in any deliberation or decision of the board \u2026\u201D. So I would like the Minister to take a call to explain to us whether, under this bill, when a board of directors is going through the process of appointing a chief executive officer or senior manager to the M\u0101ori Television Service, and members of the interview panel have an interest in applying for the job, the failure of panel members to disclose their conflict of interest would lead to this provision being put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIf it would, the Minister needs to explain why the members of the establishment board are not being held to the same standard. I am totally convinced that the public and Opposition members are equally concerned that before the M\u0101ori Television Service legislation has been passed, we already have a lot of question marks over the conduct of the establishment board. What is the point of Parliament spending time debating and passing legislation that will supposedly hold the board of directors to a high degree of integrity and professionalism, if that is not going to be implemented? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI do not think it is good enough for the Minister to continue to simply sit there refusing to answer any questions and refusing to give the public the assurance that all these high standards of behaviour spelt out in these schedules will be carried out, and the assurance that if any member of the board fails to perform to that standard, the public can expect the Minister to take effective action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022db02d9ef9d964ec4911079a7fc627d17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db02d9ef9d964ec4911079a7fc627d17\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I am disappointed to have got the call quite as early as this, because I rather expected that the Minister would seek the opportunity to answer the excellent questions posed by my colleague Pansy Wong. The Minister should reflect solemnly on the questions she asked and the theme behind those questions. We are here today, in the Committee stage, debating the schedules to this bill, and they are important schedules. The first schedule outlines the appointment process for the electoral college, the second schedule the process for directors, and the third schedule the process for the chief executive. In respect of each of those schedules, there has been a pantomime of events over the past 2 years for which this Minister owes the Committee an explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Minister cannot with a straight face ask the Committee today to solemnly pass these three schedules, knowing the history that has gone before them, without providing at least an explanation. I say to the Minister in all seriousness that we will keep taking the calls and asking the questions until he does this Committee the courtesy of giving the explanations it deserves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe first question I want to ask him is about schedule 1, because that talks about the M\u0101ori Television Electoral College, and that electoral college, it is known, has the gravest of concerns about many of the recent events in relation to the management of the M\u0101ori Television Service. I am not going to go on to rehearse some of those concerns. Some of them have been placed in writing to the Minister or one of his ministerial colleagues. I simply invite him to take a call and explain to the Committee the nature of the concerns held by the electoral college, expressed to him both verbally and in writing, and tell us what he has done to reassure the electoral college on these matters. He must tell the Committee about those concerns, and particularly about his responses, if he expects us to pass this schedule into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EMore worryingly, I want him to tell us about some matters that bear upon schedules 2 and 3. I have raised these matters in this Committee previously, and so far the Minister has avoided giving an answer. The process by which Mr Derek Fox got himself to be appointed as the chief executive officer of the M\u0101ori Television Service was nothing less than a monumental jack-up\u2014and that Minister knows it. The whole process by which he was put in place as the chairman in the first place was calculated to remove a political opponent from the establishment of an alternative M\u0101ori political party, and to stop Mr Fox from beating the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs in his own electorate. That is what this thing was all about in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EWe were told that the position of chairman of the M\u0101ori Television Service was to be a small, part-time, $36,000-a-year job. But that has been translated into a massive role\u2014first of all, of executive chairman, and now, of chief executive. The Minister needs to tell us how it is that his departmental chief executive signed off on that process. Did that chief executive ask some questions on his behalf to assure himself of the probity of that process? I know he did. I know that Mr Leith Comer signed a memorandum asking those questions, and that he was far from satisfied with the answers. I want the Minister to tell us what those questions were and what the answers were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EHow was it that there was an appointment process that Mr Fox himself presided over as the chairman of the appointment committee? He sat on the board for the report-back process, and only when his own nomination came up did he leave the room. What was it that saw him appointed by three votes to two, with one of those votes being a proxy? I want the Minister to stand and tell us why we should have confidence in passing these provisions, particularly schedules 2 and 3, when he knows that the process that has already preceded this discussion in the Committee today is shonky, has been rightly criticised by his own officials, is one that his own chief executive has most serious reservations about, and does not meet the smell test, by any standard. Why was a decision made to proceed with the appointment, to announce the appointment of Mr Fox, when he, the Minister, knows that the advice was that the appointment should not proceed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a179d91ff0624f139a89ecf1d4611eeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a179d91ff0624f139a89ecf1d4611eeb\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to look at the history of M\u0101ori involvement in business. There have been many failures in M\u0101ori business because of non-accountability. New Zealand First has already expressed its opposition to M\u0101ori television, because of the process and the steps that have been taken. One of those steps has been touched on by Mr McCully\u2014the appointment of the chief executive officer. I remember when that person was asked in the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee what he was getting paid as acting chairperson, as he was at the time, and he specifically quoted the figure of $36,000, although I will stand corrected on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EI refer to the process that has taken place in relation to the appointment of the chief executive officer. How can a person who sat on the interviewing committee all of a sudden be appointed to the position of chief executive officer? I am sure that some very competent people applied, but at this stage I am not aware who the applicants were. M\u0101oridom has been tarnished with the brush of incompetence and failure in business. Why is that? Is it because we are following along that same pattern of appointees\u2014patting each other on the back and saying: \u201CYou will do the job.\u201D? Why is it? That is the question I ask. The commentary on the bill talks about \u201CIssues beyond the bill\u201D and \u201CSecurity and level of funding\u201D. In relation to someone being appointed to the very responsible position of chief executive officer of M\u0101ori Television\u2014if and when it gets off the ground\u2014it states: \u201CSeveral submitters proposed amending the bill to provide security of funding to the Service \u2026\u201D. If there are concerns about security of funding to the service, why are we still continuing to pass this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThe commentary on the bill continues: \u201CSubmitters are concerned that funding for the Service is contestable with other broadcasters. Submitters also have concerns about the level of operational funding allocated to the Service. We consider that issues relating to funding of the Service are outside the scope of this bill.\u201D Are we not destined for failure when there is a question about the funding for this bill? Are we on the same track that led to the failure of other business corporations in the past? What and who would that reflect on? Here we go again\u2014money is spent and there is no accountability. The viability of this bill is doomed. We in New Zealand First do not want to be associated with anything that is a failure for M\u0101ori, because we feel that M\u0101ori have a great part to play in our community, in our nation, and internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b648d7eb03942e581268361139db276\u0022\u003EMita Ririnui\u003C/span\u003E: So why not on television?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6f827abf484d5e95b129fc401233e1\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON\u003C/span\u003E: So if we are going to talk about M\u0101ori television, as I have just heard\u2014if or when it gets off the ground\u2014how are we to say: \u201CYes, M\u0101ori have learnt from that media, or that type of learning, to retain the language and the tikanga.\u201D? As I have asked before, who will facilitate the learning when people look at the screen? The bill is saying it will help retain the language, yet all of a sudden a person who was on the original interviewing panel has been appointed chief executive officer. Who were the people who applied for this position? Did they or did they not have the skills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3a635b759284378996c198f91546c98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3a635b759284378996c198f91546c98\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I find schedule 2 very interesting. I come to it as a company lawyer. Of course, what this bill tries to do is to build a company without calling it a company, and to give a few key distinctions. First, let us examine the appointment criteria. How does one appreciate the dual role of the Crown and M\u0101ori as stakeholders when this bill does nothing to tell anyone what a stakeholder is or what his or her stake is? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E Indeed, the report of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee states expressly that neither of them owns the service. So who does? Is it owned by no one\u2014not even as a trustee? If this service acquires valuable market share or contracts that are important, or if it acquires a runaway hit, as a series or a programme, does no one own it\u2014not the people of New Zealand, not M\u0101ori, not the electoral college, not the Crown? Does no one own it? Yet in the first clause of schedule 2 one of the first criteria for appointment and a key competency, as stated in paragraph (c), is that people appreciate \u201Cthe dual role of the Crown and M\u0101ori as stakeholders\u201D without any definition. That is a typical example of the drafting style that says: \u201CWe don\u2019t need to answer hard questions when they relate to M\u0101ori. We will just throw them into the air and no one will ask again until people are embroiled in litigation. P\u0101keh\u0101 all over New Zealand will be saying \u2018M\u0101ori can\u2019t organise their affairs. Look, they always have to go to court.\u2019.\u201D The reason they end up going to court is that people draft law that steers them in that direction, and they have no option. That is an inevitable consequence of writing drivel like clause 1(c) of schedule 2: \u201Cappreciation of the dual role of the Crown and M\u0101ori as stakeholders\u201D. I am a little suspicious of some of the other criteria, but I will come to those when I go a little further through the bill. This list looks like a \u201Cdon\u2019t rock the boat\u201D appointment list. Clause 1(e) of schedule 2 states: \u201Cability to distinguish corporate governance from management:\u201D. It is always the claim of management when someone really needs to get to the bottom of something, that the directors are getting outside their proper sphere. There are times when the corporate governance mantra is used as a simple, impenetrable shield against investigation and proper examination. The list of competencies includes, in paragraph (j), the \u201Cability to work as a team member and collaboratively:\u201D. There is nothing that balances that and mentions the ability to take the initiative, the ability to stand up against the collective, the ability to challenge accepted wisdom, or the ability to be the devil\u2019s advocate. No, the only criterion that relates to that is the \u201Cability to work as a team member and collaboratively:\u201D. In other words, it is the ability to be a yes-man or a yes-woman. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI now look at the definition of \u201Cinterested\u201D in new clause 4A, \u201CConflict of interest of directors\u201D, in the second schedule. I think that the preceding address from the New Zealand First member quite correctly said that there is a good deal of public concern about the propriety with which business has been conducted in some M\u0101ori organisations. So we get a special definition of \u201Cinterested\u201D for the purpose of identifying a conflict of interest. Unfortunately, this is an exclusive or comprehensive definition. Clause 4A(1) states that a director is interested in a transaction or other matter if\u2014then the clause has a list of specific things, but it does not have what is usual in these sorts of provisions such as the words \u201Cincludes\u201D or \u201Cby way of example\u201D, or the normal implications of \u201Cinterested\u201D. So, for example, we find, in clause 4A(1)(d), that one who is the parent, child, spouse, or partner of another party is probably interested. The provision does not cover a cousin, an uncle, an adoptive relative, a shareholder, or a member of the same iwi. All of those are relationships that could give rise to a conflict of interest, but by this definition they are excluded. Is that deliberate or is it just an example of the clumsy hopelessness with which this legislation has been drafted? The precise kinds of conflicts of interest that M\u0101oridom should be, and is, most directly concerned about are not covered by the definition of \u201Cinterested\u201D. The only things that are covered are things that are pretty transparent and unlikely, anyway. I move on to a new clause, clause 5(2A), which was inserted by the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00228f7562448d334f9685f0edc4bb8498ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f7562448d334f9685f0edc4bb8498ad\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Again, I take great pleasure in talking on the schedules of this bill, Te Aratuku Whakaata Irirangi M\u0101ori bill. I must remind the Committee that we have yet to hear from the Minister as to exactly why he failed to have a M\u0101ori name for this bill, as well as for the schedules, when the whole idea of the bill was to promote M\u0101ori language. Certainly, as my colleagues Pansy Wong and Murray McCully pointed out, the schedules, of which there are three, are incredibly important given the history surrounding the appointment of directors and the chief executives that we have seen so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe first schedule deals with the electoral college, the second schedule deals with the appointment of directors and with the chief executive. If we look at Part 1 of schedule 1, we see that it refers to organisations that may appoint members of the M\u0101ori Television Electoral College, and it lists those organisations, which have a role in promoting te reo M\u0101ori, that are each entitled to appoint one representative to be a member of the college. We have never heard from the Minister\u2014and it would be tremendous if he were prepared, finally, to take a call on this matter\u2014why he has not explained to us a rationale behind the fact that $55 million of taxpayers\u2019 money will be spent on television when we have no evidence-base to show that is the best mechanism to promote te reo M\u0101ori. All the organisations listed in schedule 1\u2014from Te Kohanga Reo National Trust, to Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakapumau i te Reo M\u0101ori, and including the M\u0101ori Women\u2019s Welfare League, the National M\u0101ori Congress, the New Zealand M\u0101ori Council, and the list goes on\u2014are highly capable and eminent in terms of their ability to promote the M\u0101ori language, but the Minister has never told us, anywhere, about any evidence-base showing that this huge amount of taxpayers\u2019 money, spent per year, is an effective way of promoting the M\u0101ori language. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESchedule 2 deals with the appointment of directors, and, undoubtedly, one of the great concerns has been the appointment process that we have seen so far. Part 3 of that schedule deals with the appointment of the chief executive, and, again, we must ask the Minister why the history of the appointment of chief executives has so far been so totally and absolutely unsatisfactory. On 15 March 2002, the Minister in the chair, Parekura Horomia\u2014who has failed to give an explanation to the people of New Zealand\u2014talked about John Davy as being the best person for the job. Derek Fox, the next director\u2014the one who sat on the board and slipped out of a meeting only at the last moment, before his own appointment\u2014said that there was no perfect answer about applications for the job but that the board had come down on the side of strong financial and managerial control. He went on to say that he was confident the guy would deliver. Well, that is the very man that this process has delivered. Here we are with a bill that will encompass the expenditure of $55 million of taxpayers\u2019 money on promoting te reo M\u0101ori, yet we have a legacy of 100 percent of directors so far having been appointed in a very shonky manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u00222ce8cb00fc4c4ae686ce443aeef91a30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ce8cb00fc4c4ae686ce443aeef91a30\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I refer to schedule 1, and, in particular, to clause 10(2)(b), which states that one of the issues to be considered in dispute resolution is \u201Cwhether and when to seek information from, and review the performance of, the Service:\u201D. I have already referred to my major concerns about the amount of money that is going into this television service bill, which is somewhat of a black hole. We are talking about $30 million or $40 million a year going in to fund the M\u0101ori Television Service. That is a huge amount of money we are spending, from public funds, to float this service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EWhen we come to issues of accountability, the very least we can expect is a strong provision for accountability regarding that money. As members of Parliament, we expect to have some sort of right to know where this money is going, and we expect the right to know that it will be spent wisely. Already, many questions have arisen as to whether money has been spent wisely thus far. So when we look at clause 10(2)(b) we see that there are very lax accountability standards, and we found those standards when we looked back at clause 15 of the bill, which lists the college\u2019s accountability standards. In particular, I notice from clause 15 that the functions of Te P\u016Btahi Paoho are to appoint four of the seven directors of the service; to provide direction to the chairperson of Te P\u016Btahi Paoho in the performance and exercise of his or her functions and powers; to consider the need to increase or decrease the number of organisations represented on the college; and to receive the accountability documents prepared by the board. At least at that point there is some sort of reception of accountability documents. I note, though, that the power and function of the college is to receive accountability documents; I see nowhere any powers that it has in terms of what it does once it has received them. That seems to me to mean that the college can receive anything it likes and that anything that is presented to it is simply tabled. Whether or not the college likes it, there is nothing it can do if it is unhappy with the accountability documents that are given to it. The best the college can do is to provide some sort of directions to the chairperson, but that will not get it very far. Certainly, it will not make the M\u0101ori Television Service very accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EWe see in clause 16 that there must be consultation with the Minister in terms of the preparation of a statement of intent, and in terms of the review of the performance, so that the Minister and the college jointly may\u2014and I note the word \u201Cmay\u201D; there is no \u201Cshall\u201D here\u2014review the performance of the service. With that background, we then look at the provisions of schedule 1, which take us a little bit further on and perhaps give us some sort of inclination as to what that accountability will be about and what we can expect to see from the accountability. When we look at clause 10(2)(b), in schedule 1, we find that there is an issue as to whether any information will be provided at all, and as to whether the service will be reviewed in terms of its performance. Even if it is reviewed, there are questions as to when that information will be sought. So we may not see any review for 5 years. We may not see a review for 10 years. We may never see a review, because it is within the power of the responsible Minister and the chairperson of the college to determine whether, and when, to seek a review. It seems to me, therefore, that the M\u0101ori Television Service could go on and on, using up tens of millions of taxpayers\u2019 dollars, without very much accountability whatsoever. Not only may the service never be called to account, but even if it is called to account, we have seen in clause 15(1)(d) that the power of the college is simply to receive the accountability documents. There is nothing there that gives the college any power in terms of any sort of direction, or any withholding of funds, or anything else like that that would give it any teeth whatsoever if it was convinced the M\u0101ori Television board was not producing as well as it should produce. I have very real concerns about that. I am concerned about all that money going into a black hole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022062be5f741c64059b1b472e41a2b99a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022062be5f741c64059b1b472e41a2b99a0\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chairperson, I am indebted to you for giving me another call, and I give you notice that I will keep on seeking the call until the Minister does the Committee the courtesy of providing some answers. I know that you will be keen to exercise leniency in that respect, because the Minister should be compelled to answer those questions, and, if not answered, makes a mockery of the process the Committee is engaged in today. For example, Part 3 of schedule 2 relates to the appointment process for the chief executive. The Committee is discussing a process that has already been acted out, and the Minister refuses to tell the Committee today whether the provisions that we are solemnly debating have been acted upon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIn particular, I refer the Minister to the provision in clause 18(2) of schedule 2 in relation to the appointment of the chief executive, which states: \u201CIn appointing a chief executive, the board must\u2014(a) act independently;\u201D. That is what the schedule states. I want to know whether the Minister can assure the Committee that that test was met in the appointment process of Mr Fox. Was that an independent process in the words that are in the bill? Was it independent when Mr Fox presided over the appointment committee? Was it independent when he sat through the report back to the board? Was it independent when there was a 3:2 vote and one of those was a proxy? I simply ask the Minister to give the Committee the assurance that it is entitled to, if that is not to be a process that should draw the contempt of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIn relation to the appointment process I also want to ask the Minister about clause 18(3) in schedule 2, which states: \u201CIn determining or amending the terms and conditions of the appointment of the chief executive, the board must\u2014(a) consult with the State Services Commissioner;\u201D. I ask the Minister whether there was a proper and meaningful consultation process with the State Services Commissioner. Even the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs should be able to answer that question. If not, why are we going to solemnly pass that schedule into law this afternoon? Will the Minister take a call to answer that question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe documents that I have seen make it quite clear that the State Services Commissioner did have the appointment process drawn to his attention. He said that no, it was not a satisfactory process, and that he had certain concerns. In an email that I have seen, and which the Minister should have seen, the State Services Commissioner stated quite clearly that one of the problems was that the terms of reference for the appointment\u2014the job description, if one likes\u2014was the same job description that applied in respect of Mr Davy. Yet Mr Davy and Mr Fox could hardly be more different. The State Services Commissioner then pointed out how wrong it would be to change the job description after the board had decided who the appointee would be. He said that that would take a bit of explaining. The Minister now has a bit of explaining to do. He wants us to solemnly vote for a schedule that describes a process that he knows simply did not happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThen we have to ask the Minister why, if the consultation process in relation to the State Services Commissioner was inadequate, the next bit did not come into play that states that where that process does not work, then the responsible Minister should be consulted. I want the Minister to tell us whether his officials consulted him, and whether they told him the State Services Commissioner had said that that stuff did not look very flash. Did his officials tell him that? He should have been; that was in the email traffic that I have seen. What did the Minister do then? I want the Minister to tell the Committee that this afternoon. If he wants us to vote for schedule 2 and clause 18 of Part 3 of that schedule, I want to know what he told his officials to do if he was consulted because the State Services Commission consultation process was inadequate. If the Minister did tell his officials to make the appointment anyway, I want him to own up to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6f2833dd5e34cf481e8a91c3e5d40ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6f2833dd5e34cf481e8a91c3e5d40ac\u0022\u003EMITA RIRINUI (NZ Labour\u2014Wai\u0101riki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022359cbe1884984a66bc2348451d25d67c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000354\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000355\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000356\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 77 in the name of the Hon Parekura Horomia to the schedules be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022747c7b9f200440579d4ef737baae7b12\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000357\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000358\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a010509a179c4555ae7a9c17fdbdcf30\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedules as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedules as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000359\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000360\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6;United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000361\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245f014fab4244f59843455bbbb38bd5c\u0022\u003ENational Library of New Zealand (Te PunaM\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226bb07a9e7ce04eca85824502e018560b\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022378fa441f71e4fca8d549e2560fc6b1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022378fa441f71e4fca8d549e2560fc6b1a\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Acting Minister responsible for the National Library)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Bill be now read a third time. This bill replaces the current National Library Act of 1965. It clarifies the relationship between the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library, and states that the Crown is to continue to own the Alexander Turnbull Library collections in perpetuity. A new body, the Guardians Kaitiaki of the Alexander Turnbull Library, will provide assurance to the people of New Zealand about that library\u2019s collections and services. The bill has been amended to allow for the temporary loan of items from the Alexander Turnbull Library\u2019s collections for exhibitions in New Zealand or overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill establishes the Library and Information Advisory Commission. That body has the brief of advising the Minister on the rapidly changing field of libraries and information, and of providing a national and an international overview. That move supports a more outward-looking National Library, empowered by the legislation to work alongside other bodies with related aims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori interests are also addressed in the bill. The provisions go well beyond the addition of the library\u2019s already commonly used M\u0101ori name and the inclusion of M\u0101ori names for the bodies established by the bill. Any person exercising powers and functions under this bill is required to protect the collections as documentary heritage and taonga, and all references to knowledge and information in this bill are paralleled by references to taonga M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EIn passing this bill, this Parliament will be just ahead of the United Kingdom in extending legal deposit to cover electronic as well as print materials. All around the world there is agreement that libraries must take appropriate steps to ensure that countries\u2019 documentary heritage, which is increasingly presented and stored in electronic form, is collected and preserved and is accessible for future generations. What has been at issue is how the commercial interests of publishers can be safeguarded. It is acknowledged that access to electronic material is a very different matter from managing access to a limited number of copies of printed material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe world of information and communications technology changes at a dizzying rate, and this bill has been designed to try to avoid the need for frequent revision to accommodate such changes. Those issues are addressed by providing for legal deposit requirements to be made by ministerial requirements that have the status of regulations under the Regulations (Disallowance) Act. Books and other print material will continue to be collected as comprehensively as possible, in similar fashion to the current arrangements, while electronic materials online and off-line will be addressed selectively by separate requirement. That requirement will be made following consultation with affected publishers about format, and about terms and conditions of access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe final matter addressed by the bill is an amendment to the Official Information Act to deal with a conflict between that Act and certain oral histories commissioned by the library. With the passage of this bill, the National Librarian will be required to comply with the conditions of access made by those donating such histories to the library. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EOn behalf of the Hon Marian Hobbs, I would like to express my thanks and hers to the Education and Science Committee for its detailed and collaborative work on that aspect of the bill, as well as to the library community and the information community for their positive contributions. I would also like to thank the committee of advisers that the Minister called together, chaired by Dr Lydia Wevers, who have advised all the way through the process on this bill, particularly on the protection of the Alexander Turnbull Library, the Government\u2019s relationship to that collection, and the ongoing safeguarding of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThis bill fulfils a promise made when Labour came into power in 1999 both to secure the Alexander Turnbull Library and its collection\u2019s unique status, and to support the National Library as an institution of central and primary significance in New Zealand\u2019s creative life and economy. We are pleased that the issues for the modern library and for the protection of our evolving heritage have engaged the interest and support of members on all sides of this House. The library community is eagerly awaiting the passage of this bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022682814b60dfb4ffc8908a40b92ce61b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022682814b60dfb4ffc8908a40b92ce61b8\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the bill, and I am very pleased to be able to commend the Minister for her comments on the fact that all parties in the House have supported this bill all the way through. I would particularly like to commend the members of the National Party who were on the Education and Science Committee, Simon Power and Dr Paul Hutchison. I note that Dr Hutchison had the brilliant idea, as a good practical man\u2014he was formerly an obstetrician before coming to this House\u2014that we should have a look at the library before we considered a bill about it. There is nothing like a little bit of fieldwork, so to speak. [Interruption] I note that young Darren Hughes is making a comment, which is good. It is good to see that he is working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ELibrary people\u2014I note that there are several here today, and hopefully many are listening at work\u2014are a special breed of people. They are the people who, in many ways, keep a lot of our culture together. Culture is not just about the ability to play a violin, to do a particular dance, or to make a particular food. It is actually a lot about the way we live. Specific mention has been made about the need to clarify the status of oral history under the Official Information Act, because it is very, very important for the history of New Zealand and for the emerging of a New Zealand culture that we actually understand the histories and the reasons that certain things happened in this country, and particularly also in politics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe all come from families that have oral histories. Some particular cultures in New Zealand have more of a history of oral culture because they did not actually have a culture that had writing or some other form of written communication, and for them in particular, oral history is most important. However, today with our Official Information Act and Privacy Act, it is also incredibly important that oral histories are kept because a lot of people do not want to write down too much in case it comes back to haunt them. I note Annette King is looking up at that comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is particularly pleasing to have a bill once in a while that we can actually support. I note the work of Mr Brian Donnelly, who is here today and who was the chairperson of the Education and Science Committee, and who helped steer this through. It is always difficult, I am sure, for any Government to be able to get full party support on a bill, and it is very nice that we can finally say that there is in fact a promise that Labour made that it actually kept, but obviously with the help of all the other parties in the House. [Interruption] I can see that that particular member is now awake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would particularly like to commend the bill to the House, and to say that the National Party is particularly pleased to be able to support it and the librarians who do the wonderful work at the National Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220291ddf4bee14a9fb70db2b52c7f99f0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Bernie Ogilvy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00223c17b9c9b4cb43269ad542fc04dfcaa5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c17b9c9b4cb43269ad542fc04dfcaa5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I realise that we have a bit of an energy crisis, but the lobby is now in darkness. I wanted to have a look at the Official Information Act\u2014I wanted to read it\u2014but I cannot actually see in the lobby to be able to find the volume. It is a serious question. Turning the lights down so far that the lobby is in such darkness that members cannot get access to Acts is ridiculous\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229317a589761f493794d54919e57abde4\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Use the switch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d0ebfaee493425fac4355139ebf337b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says to use the switch, but they have actually been switched off. I think that the lobby lights should be turned up a bit so that I can actually find the Act I am looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222c81189b4ea5451685a5e5a5c432dd2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c81189b4ea5451685a5e5a5c432dd2f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I support the member; I think the lights are turned down a little bit too low for safety and comfort.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248565ee2144e427e8566e9731a26d5f6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that. I am going to direct that the lights be turned up to sufficient luminosity to enable members to go about their work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u002272b1165d8d984b348e8988da9e03d2ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272b1165d8d984b348e8988da9e03d2ee\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is just a clarification of the order of speaking. In allocating speeches, the Speaker has consistently ruled that the United Future party is not a member of the Government\u2014it occurred today during question time. Therefore I raise the question of why, in this particular case, the call has been given to United Future given the size of our party and given the role that New Zealand First played in terms of chairing the select committee. It is a matter of clarification; that is all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d194ac702a584e2a9b6165fe926bc511\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that. The procedure we run through is: first, the Minister is called; we go to National, as it is slightly bigger than New Zealand First; we then go back to Labour or United Future. It is normally a Labour call, but it is either/or, and that is why we are there. Next we will come to New Zealand First, because it is well recognised that New Zealand First is the second-biggest Opposition party. We have always done that\u2014certainly all this year. That is why the call is not going to United Future in its own right; that party is combined with Labour for this purpose. The next call was really Labour, after National.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u00226ea634c1cc02438295a5c549a28c709e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ea634c1cc02438295a5c549a28c709e\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the third reading of the National Library of New Zealand (Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa) Bill. As a member of the Education and Science Committee, I regard it as certainly one of the highlights of my introduction to Parliament to see my way through such a bill held in such affection. One of the things that certainly stood out during the time spent on this bill was the invitation to visit the National Library as well as the Alexander Turnbull Library. As we all went, we became very conscious of the value, the history, and the tasks that everybody was doing there. In fact, I was so impressed that I made a recommendation to the Clerk of the House that in the future when new MPs begin, they all do a tour of the National Library in order to understand something of what is available both to us as MPs and to the nation as a whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EOne of the things that I was most interested in and was able to see completed was that the legal deposit was extended to include electronic documents. That was a most useful inclusion and extension into this bill. Of course, we have to realise\u2014as those on the select committee realised, and as those in the National Library will realise\u2014that for those who live in far-flung regions of the country and are beyond practical access to local libraries, resources such as a national database, which is electronic and non-electronic and which is now accessible via the Internet, has the potential to be incredibly valuable to everybody. Because of that, we all felt very strongly that this had to be one of the highlights and purposes for strengthening this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThe other thing that really stood out was the effort to share the treasures that lay within the library itself. I know that this bill does not address, as yet at least, this whole matter in full. It is one of those questions that will, I think, be a challenge for the National Library to extend itself beyond just what it has been doing in the past. I know it was the heart intention of one of those who made submissions that that certainly would be one of the great things that will occur as this bill is put in place. I certainly commend this bill to the House on behalf of United Future. As long as the present Government and future Governments think very carefully about the future of the library and the ways in which it best serves the citizens of this country, this is a bill that will for ever be an encouragement for our nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00226873207086974c79a5e60ebf6cec02cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226873207086974c79a5e60ebf6cec02cd\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E First, I want to make it clear that my point of order earlier was for clarification, not because I wanted to have priority over the previous speaker. New Zealand First will certainly be supporting this bill. We have in fact been supporting it in a practical way through its processes. A couple of members have mentioned the trip that the select committee made to the National Library. The library really is an icon. It is an incredible facility that New Zealand has. It is an invaluable national treasure. It preserves our cultural heritage. It preserves it by keeping material that tells us not only about what people did at certain times but also about what they thought, what really drives us as a nation, and what defines us as a nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E It is really important that this bill is enacted, because the existing organisational structure created some serious tensions within the organisation of the National Library itself, around the governance of the Alexander Turnbull Library, and around how they related to each other. New Zealand First believes that this does clarify those relationships, and also the National Library\u2019s operations and functions in terms of preserving our heritage, ensuring that there is access to it\u2014and there are still issues about access for people in rural areas\u2014and protecting and developing our heritage, which is so important. We congratulate the Friends of the Turnbull Library and the members of the National Library who went through some very hard times in coming to some conclusions and arrangements by which we will be able to move into the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe second area of considerable debate and consideration was around the legal deposit of electronic publications. With the degree of electronic publications today, to ignore the issue of legal deposits would really be to miss out on a huge portion of our current knowledge and heritage, etc. There are some issues around copyright. The Newspaper Publishers Association of New Zealand was very concerned about the possibility that it would have stuff that different organisations had contracted in from overseas agencies, etc., which the library would be able to access and which would then be accessed by other organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EFirstly, the National Library does not want a minute-by-minute update on every piece of information\u2014it could not handle that; there would be an information overload\u2014and, secondly, it would be inconsistent with the very purpose of the National Library to enable that access. It is now working on protocols in a constructive and cooperative fashion to ensure that the needs of all parties are met regarding that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI also raise the issue of oral history. Certainly, within M\u0101ori heritage, oral history is of extreme importance, and it is extremely important that it is taken down and recorded in an appropriate fashion. The other issue relates very much to members of this House, where the practice has always been to get an oral tape of an outgoing Prime Minister, with the understanding that the tape would be kept for 50 years, and that that would be accessible under the Official Information Act. As a result of that understanding, there would obviously be reluctance by members leaving the House to be as open and honest as they possibly could be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EPersonally, I am still aggrieved by the fact that the full history behind the negotiations in 1996 has never been made available to the public. As a result, the public are in error in terms of their understanding of the mechanisms and rationale behind some of the decisions that were made at that particular time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9db55d43e984f379825a600d6b18ece\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Correct the record right now. Tell us all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b62729b0833e40ad86f92958b52bbfad\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: I am running out of time. I just want to mention that, within the bill itself, there is a protection for people who are giving oral histories. A person giving an oral history can lay down conditions, and the National Library has to stick by those conditions that are set down at the time the person provides the information. It is very important that we ensure that protection\u2014not only for politicians, but also in regard to M\u0101ori history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has some misgivings about the writing of the bill, and with the way that some of the language used in the bill expresses some issues around what people are thinking. For example, the M\u0101ori Television Service Bill, which has just been debated, has a clear title. When it refers to particular organisations that have a M\u0101ori name\u2014such as Te P\u016Btahi Paoho\u2014it uses that name. But in this bill there is confusion: people are trying to be so politically correct that they are corrupting the English language. For instance, the M\u0101ori name for the National Library is put in the title of the bill, which is in keeping with M\u0101ori interests, but a lot more has to be done with it than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOf even more concern is the fact that, with some of the bodies that have been set up, there is a blending together of M\u0101ori and English. For example, the bill refers to the \u201CLibrary and Information Advisory Commission Ng\u0101 Kaiwhakam\u0101rama i ng\u0101 Kohikohinga K\u014Drero\u201D; what does that actually mean? It is not as if the second part is in brackets as if it is a translation of the original; it is all blended in together. What is even worse is that there used to be the Friends of the Turnbull Library, but now we have come up with this other thing, which is called the Guardians Kaitiaki of the Alexander Turnbull Library\u2014M\u0101ori and English are all blended into one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Language Commission raised various concerns about what we are doing with the English language here. English is very rich, because it has the facility to import terms and expressions from other languages, and to make them part of the English language. We have done that in New Zealand English with words like \u201Cwhare\u201D, and \u201CM\u0101ori\u201D itself, which have been imported into the language and which have become part of the English language. Yet what we have here is a word like \u201Ctaonga\u201D, which is not referring to M\u0101ori treasures, but which is now being asked to refer to everything that is in the library. If that is the case, when we get to \u201CM\u0101tauranga\u201D, and it comes across into English, why not just use the word \u201CM\u0101tauranga\u201D? We know what that is referring to in English\u2014but, no, that is not what is done here. The bill says \u201CM\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThere is a lack of rigour in the thinking behind the language that is being used in this bill, and that concerns us, because it then raises questions about what is behind the bill. For example, if the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs and Te Puni K\u014Dkiri can come up with a bill for this House that does not make use of strange little language mechanisms, and which does not corrupt either the M\u0101ori or English language, then why do we have a National Library bill that does? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EAs I say, we have some very real concerns. We asked what is meant by \u201CM\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori\u201D, and we asked whether a translation of Shakespeare into M\u0101ori would be m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, or whether Witi Ihimaera\u2019s work\u2014which is m\u0101tauranga to me\u2014would be considered m\u0101tauranga M\u0101ori, even though it is written in English. I asked what is being referred to here, and the advisers could not give me an answer. That raises some questions about some fuzziness and a lack of rigour in the thinking behind this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is saying there needs to be some more rigorous thinking around all those language issues, and around all the treaty issues. We should not just subscribe to those issues as though they are a new religion, but establish what the realities are, and what the outcomes of some severe, rigorous thought would be. Nevertheless, we will be fully supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002243ad8a67d9954292b5f7f40e2281be14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243ad8a67d9954292b5f7f40e2281be14\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I have just read the select committee report, and I think it is a very good report. Members from all different parties in this House came together to work on it, because this is an institution that is so well respected in our country, and people know what a pivotal role they play in being the keepers and the guardians of all the materials that make up the story of our country. The people who work within the library have a very special role for us in this House and for our country, and it is appropriate that we update the Act of Parliament that governs that institution, because the current legislation is nearly 40 years old. Parliament has come together to pass a new bill for a modern age, where the kind of information the library is responsible for has changed hugely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhen the 1965 legislation was being debated by this Parliament, the idea that information would be stored on CD-ROM, on websites, or in an electronic form would not have been considered by lawmakers. This bill brings those forms of storing information very firmly within the ambit of the National Library, just as books, periodicals, and magazines have been in past times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI am very interested in the work that the Library and Information Advisory Commission, which is established under this bill, will do in the future. It will provide the Minister with advice on the rapidly changing field of information\u2014not only here at home, but also abroad. The bill not only recognises all the good work that has been done by Te Puna M\u0101tauranga o Aotearoa in the past, but also sets it up well for the future. I support the bill\u2019s third reading, and I wish all involved with our National Library the best for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0c6c347a8f24244bf7d28ac04626953\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0c6c347a8f24244bf7d28ac04626953\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E One observation I made during the Committee stage of this bill, and, indeed, during its second reading, was that MPs wondered why the National Library legislation was getting priority. I notice that it has been dealt with under urgency during most stages, and, in looking at the Hansard, I note that a comment was made that a bill going through Parliament can cost up to $800,000. When one looks at this bill, one sees that there is really nothing in it that requires legislation. There is no reason that the National Library could not proceed. There is only one requirement in this bill, and only one reason the bill is going through Parliament, and I call it the \u201CHelen Clark protection clause\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E In fact it is quite clear that our Prime Minister has been giving an oral history. She gives it every month. In that oral history she has set out frankly all the coups and other things that go on within the Labour Party, believing that it would never be discovered. She found out 2 years ago that actually all of those documents were discoverable under the Official Information Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b0a39bf55f14c2990797a1503c79004\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2c4e82139944fdb8bdb83e255ae7590\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Hon Judith Tizard whether that is correct. The Prime Minister discovered that it was all discoverable under the Official Information Act. If we go to schedule 3 we find that it states, under \u201COfficial Information Act 1982 (1982 No 156)\u201D, the following: \u201COmit from paragraph (e)(ii) of the definition of official information the word \u2018; and\u2019 and substitute the word \u2018; or\u2019. Add to paragraph (e) of the definition of official information: \u2018(iii) any oral history provided to the National Library of New Zealand \u2026\u201D. This is the \u201CHelen Clark Protection Bill\u201D. It costs $800,000. I would like to know what is in that official information, which today could still be discovered but will not be able to be once it is gazetted, that Helen Clark thinks the House should be put into urgency in order to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215821debadfb4d0288b73592cb0ab7bf\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Eh?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ceee08a03c444779ade72e7d553541f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: No, I realise that the House is not in urgency today but this bill is getting priority. Here we are back from the Easter break, and the most important matter facing the House is to pass a bill in which, if one looks at it, the only real change we are making to the statute law of New Zealand is that no longer is an oral history given by a person discoverable under the Official Information Act. The only oral histories that have been given that any of them would be worried about are the oral histories given by our Prime Minister. I understand she has done it, thinking that conditions can be put on it that that oral history cannot be looked at until well after she has gone, that she is intending to write her history based on it, and that she was devastated to discover that other historians would be able to get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI hate to break it to Helen Clark at this late stage after she has spent $800,000, but it is my view that her oral histories are discoverable through High Court actions. I expect\u2014Governments regularly get involved in High Court actions\u2014that sooner or later some barrister is going to realise that in the oral histories of the National Library are the accounts by the Prime Minister of what really went on. I suspect that we will discover all sorts of things. For example, we might find some very, very interesting things about how this Government has been handling State-owned enterprises and how it has been taking all the money rather than building new electrical generation. If we were to go into the oral history we could well find that information there. We might discover, for example, the answer to one of the great mysteries\u2014why is Judith Tizard in Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059b090e1f094eee84cf1269052b7f5e\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5145574b6164335874d4de4dd2d058c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Why is she a Minister? Why does she carry the Prime Minister\u2019s handbag? It may all be in the oral history. I have no doubt that the real reason is thoroughly embarrassing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de02b204c6434e63a64b46119495ed23\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Why did I win Auckland Central and why did you get the sack?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a160d8a9cd14b92bbe051f34d84e03e\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: It is very interesting that the Minister thinks that is the reason. She says it is because she got Auckland Central and I got sacked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252499903b8e34c0c922571c32c1b17c8\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Auckland Central and Wellington Central.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfdcba68a27445a0a9dadaaea1b1211b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: That is an interesting reason, as well. The Minister is now telling us that it had something to do with Wellington Central. I thought that she was the Minister responsible for Auckland Issues. Every time I get jammed on the motorways in Auckland I think: \u201CThanks to Judith Tizard, nothing is moving.\u201D No doubt if we were to have a look at the oral histories we might see the frustration that our Prime Minister no doubt feels with the Minister responsible for Auckland Issues, because the longer that Judith Tizard has been in charge of the traffic the slower it has gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting that we are spending $800,000 of taxpayers\u2019 money in order to declare that an oral history is no longer official information. We have not had from any Minister an admission that that is what we are doing, nor have we had at any stage in this bill a justification for it. We either believe in Official Information Acts or we do not. The Official Information Act actually states that all information that Ministers have, including information they have in their heads, is official information and ought to be able to be discoverable by the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI have listened to members talk about how important information is, but we have discovered in a National Library bill that we are passing legislation stating that those interesting documents are not available. I have to say in fairness to Helen Clark that Jim Bolger was also devastated to discover that all of his documents were discoverable under the Official Information Act, and he apparently was very loquacious in giving his oral histories. It is probably fortunate for both Mr Bolger and Helen Clark that no historian or member of the media tumbled to the fact that if they had put in Official Information Act requests for their oral histories we could have discovered what Helen Clark really thinks of George Bush and why she really is going to Europe. We might have found out all sorts of things about what the Labour Party\u2019s real policies are, but now, thanks to this bill, Helen Clark\u2019s oral histories are a State secret that cannot be revealed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EFurther into the bill there is a very interesting statement. Clause 10 states: \u201C(2) If an oral history has been provided to the National Library by a person on conditions (for example, conditions relating to access to the information)\u201D\u2014I bet she has got them\u2014\u201Cthat have been agreed to in writing by, or on behalf of, the National Librarian, the Crown and its agents (including the National Librarian) must comply with those conditions. (3) This section\u2014(a) applies whether or not the oral history was created or acquired by, or on behalf of, the Crown; and (b) does not limit the Archives Act 1957.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThat is what this bill is all about. I say to the Minister promoting the bill that if there is a good argument as to why Helen Clark\u2019s reminiscences should be kept secret for as long as she says, why were we not told openly and frankly that this is why the bill has been given urgency\u2014that that is why the Government regards this bill as the most urgent matter in front of the nation? What is in Helen Clark\u2019s oral history that requires us to pass a special law to make sure that it remains secret? Why were Ministers not open and frank with the committee and the House as to the real reason for this bill that members have described as a feel-good bill? The rest of it is a feel-good bill, but with two clauses in it to make Helen Clark feel good that New Zealanders are not to know the real history of this Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that says it is in favour of history and that it is in favour of telling all, yet here it is passing a bill to keep Helen Clark\u2019s real history secret. I suspect that when it is finally opened, probably in 80 years\u2019 time, we will discover a whole lot of reasons for Helen Clark thinking that Parliament should spend $800,000 keeping her oral history secret.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5544454495e4fe1b9018cb58e21fc9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5544454495e4fe1b9018cb58e21fc9a\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E After listening to that speech, all I can suggest is that the bats are a bit loose in the belfry. Winston Peters is the conspiracy theorist around this place, and Mr Prebble does himself a disservice in trying to emulate him. I have had the pleasure of speaking on this bill before, and the pleasure of sitting on the Education and Science Committee. We listened to very good submissions and advice we received on the bill. I know that the New Zealand library community is looking forward to this bill receiving its royal assent. I think the best thing we can do as members of Parliament is shut up, sit down, and get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7b518d293f749f1bcf610571a134be2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7b518d293f749f1bcf610571a134be2\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green): \u003C/span\u003EOn behalf of the Green Party, I would like to say how pleased I am to see this National Library bill go through its third and final reading this afternoon\u2014almost a year since it was first introduced to the House in May 2002. I am sure there will be a sense of relief, and, indeed, celebration once this bill is passed, given the years of uncertainty and, at times, distress faced by supporters of both the National Library and the Alexander Turnbull Library over the last decade or so. My heart has gone out to employees and friends of the two libraries, who have had, for example, to try to stop the destruction of material, the selling-off of books, the cutting of funding, the casting-out of good staff, and so on. The cultural devastation, which peaked in the \u201Cmanagerialist\u201D era of the late 1990s, has cast a long shadow over New Zealand\u2019s recent library history. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe are indeed fortunate to have had a Minister and a Government in power who have an understanding of the critical role that national libraries play in our society, economy, history, and culture. I thank Marian Hobbs, and those who worked with her, for putting this bill forward, in what I really believe was just the nick of time. The National Library bill is the culmination of years of hard work, negotiation, and compromise among and between people in organisations with a whole range of different vested interests, but who all share a commitment to preserving and clarifying the status of both libraries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThis was brought home to members of the Education and Science Committee during the hearings process when we heard what might truly be called a fairly eclectic assortment of heartfelt submissions from a whole variety of different viewpoints. I would like to pay my respects to all the submitters who made the effort to contribute to trying to improve the bill, and I am glad that quite a large number of changes were subsequently made, as a result of points raised by submitters. I realise that some people have been frustrated that their particular concerns have not been picked up on, but a number of the issues raised were important but were not within the scope of the bill. I hope some of these will be dealt with elsewhere, as appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOverall, the bill has presented a long-awaited opportunity to tidy up and make clear not only the overarching governance arrangements for the libraries but also a number of organisational details, which are critical for implementing the underlying intent of the legislation to safeguard, maintain, and enhance the National Library and Alexander Turnbull Library in all aspects of their collections and work. I hope future Governments will not meddle with what is being established here today, until such time as it is truly necessary to do so. The libraries deserve a long period of stability in which to build again on their many strengths, and to incorporate the new provisions of the bill into the detail of their daily work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI think this is an appropriate moment to acknowledge the new National Librarian, Penny Carnaby, and the sense of optimism she brings to her position at this critical juncture in the library\u2019s history. I would also like to acknowledge particularly the Friends of the Turnbull Library, who have fought so hard and so long for the Alexander Turnbull Library to maintain and regain its rightful place as a unique, independent, and invaluable part of our country\u2019s heritage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhile I am on acknowledgments, I would also like to thank all the library staff who gave up hours of their day to take select committee members on our own private and very informative tour, at a time of day when I am sure they all had better things to do. I never like to assume that the work of MPs is more important than anyone else\u2019s work, but I hope the bill we are passing tonight will be the best concrete expression we could give of the genuine appreciation and support many of us have for the invaluable and irreplaceable work of the two libraries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022538bb1802a654bb2a3961ac70518eb3c\u0022\u003EOffices of Parliament\u2014Address to Governor-General\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233691003184c47bc9caa133631446f60\u0022\u003EOffices of Parliament\u2014Address to Governor-General\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec76b530d434bc7a1b3bb9342e3fdab\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That a respectful Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor-General commending to Her Excellency the alterations to the appropriations for the 2002/03 financial year in respect of Vote Audit, Vote Ombudsmen, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment and the appropriations for the 2003/04 financial year in respect of Vote Audit, Vote Ombudsmen, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. This motion brings before the House the recommendations from the Officers of Parliament Committee in a report presented on 25 March 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESection 17 of the Public Finance Act, together with Standing Order 191, set out the procedures applying to votes for Offices of Parliament. Specified information is provided by the chief executive of each office of Parliament for consideration by the House. The Officers of Parliament Committee examines that information and makes recommendations to the House. The House recommends to the Governor-General by way of an address, alterations to votes for offices of Parliament during a financial year, and estimates for the next financial year. The Officers of Parliament Committee is chaired by the Speaker. All parties in the House, except the Progressive Coalition, are represented on the committee, and the committee was unanimous in its recommendations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261403a8ca2b24874a857f81dd17353ab\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I have pleasure on behalf of National in supporting this motion. The funding for the offices of Parliament\u2014that is, the Office of the Ombudsmen, the Auditor-General, and the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2014is determined by the Officers of Parliament Committee, rather than by Cabinet. National is pleased to support the motion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere are, however, a number of issues that arose during our discussions on the Auditor-General\u2019s report. I want to mention these briefly. The Audit Office has experienced, since the last election, increasing demands on its time. Parliamentary and community expectation of public sector performance and accountability is always there, and is increasing. With the number of new members of Parliament there probably will be increased demand on the services of the Audit Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAt the same time, with regard to local government the public expectation is also increasing, and that has been evidenced in the increased number of complaints that the office has received over the last 12 months. There has been a real challenge, which will face not only the Audit Office but also accountancy firms\u2014that is, the reputation, the credibility, of the accounting and auditing professions. This has come about through the demise of a number of overseas companies\u2014in particular, Enron. There are international events that may have implications for both the New Zealand profession and the Audit Office. Work will need to be done in this area, and we understand that the report by the Auditor-General to the select committee was that the Accounting Standards Review Board has recommended the adoption of the international financial reporting standards by 2007, and this may pose issues requiring particular attention for the public sector in New Zealand. There are some risks involved with this, and these are the challenges that the Audit Office will have to contend with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere has been increased demand for the services of the Audit Office, and I want to refer to the number of taxpayers who are using those services and also parliamentarians. As I mentioned earlier, with a changeover of Government, with the new Parliament, new MPs have come in and that is placing increasing demands. There are between 250 to 300 inquiries received each year. These are mainly on the performance audits of public entities. Additional funds have been provided. National supports the additional funding. That will allow the office to get through the studies that have been commissioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere is the provision for non-contested audit services, and also the provision of contested audit and assurance services. If we read through the report on these we see the Auditor-General has a statutory duty to conduct an audit of the financial statements of more than 3,900 public entities. So it is a huge operation. Audits are undertaken either by Audit New Zealand or by the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EJust to finish on this section, class 3, which is referred to, comprises the audits of approximately 400 public entities, and class 4 is the remaining 3,500 entities. Two thousand five hundred of those are schools. The Audit Office goes through a very important process. The Audit Office undertakes a number of studies, and they are listed in its very comprehensive plan. National has much pleasure in supporting Vote Auditor-General. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn moving to Vote Ombudsmen, we see a number of issues have been resolved. Once again, we are happy to support this vote. The new remuneration rates for the Chief Ombudsman and the Ombudsman, Mel Smith, were advised by the Higher Salaries Commission. They became effective last year on 1 October 2002, so there is an increased cost to the Permanent Legislative Authority, and an extra $40,000 has been allocated for that purpose. One should be aware that the remuneration of the other Ombudsman, Judge Anand Satyanand, actually comes out of Vote Courts. The Office of the Ombudsmen is not required to fund that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere has also been an interesting dilemma that the Office of the Ombudsmen has had to face, and that has been court action that has been taken against it. Another $100,000 has been appropriated to meet legal fees. It is unusual that the Crown Law Office, working on behalf of Work and Income, has taken a case against the Office of the Ombudsmen. We have allowed for $100,000 for legal fees. The office does not have any contingency to fund and defend legal proceedings. Therefore it is important that that is fully funded, and that has been achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe office has also allowed for another small legal firm adjacent to its primary tenancies to merge. This property is on The Terrace and a merger has taken place, with a little reallocation of funds. That is a move in the right direction and, certainly, we have supported it. About $36,000 has gone into that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere are a number of increasing demands on the Office of the Ombudsmen, and the objectives that have been set out for the year 2003-04 are interesting. The caseload at the moment has been between 6,000 and 6,500 investigations each year. Approximately 5,500 are complaints lodged under the Ombudsmen Act, the Official Information Act, the Local Government Official Information and Meetings Act, and the Protected Disclosures Act. It is a huge operation, with 6,500 complaints and investigations undertaken. The existing profiles have to be maintained, there is an average of nine visits per year to penal institutions, and there are about 2,000 new complaints from prison inmates during that period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere is a huge commitment there, and that goes along with the tertiary institutions. There are 40 tertiary institutions, and the ombudsmen make two visits per year to each of those institutions. The ombudsmen expect that there will be an increase in parliamentary requests during the next year, resulting from political interest positioning for the next general election. They make the comment that, as we build up to the next election, there will be other requests that the Office of the Ombudsmen will have to handle, and that is to be expected in the run-up to the 2005 election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ENational is very happy to support the role that the Office of the Ombudsmen plays, and the motion that the Minister has put forward. Two other risks that the office will be confronted with are the increased workload coming from the education sector and the increased demands on the office\u2019s time, under the Accident Compensation Corporation. The office has identified the issues that it will need to address and the challenges it will face. We believe that the funding provided for the office in these appropriations will be sufficient, and National has great pleasure in supporting the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00220d30f8efac674c6da27e46ce0b3c4406\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d30f8efac674c6da27e46ce0b3c4406\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will support the first motion with regard to the approval in respect of Vote Audit, Vote Ombudsmen, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. There is no doubt about that aspect of the matter. In keeping with our role as an Opposition party, and, perhaps, I suggest even as a member of Parliament, one should pay close attention to the matters that come before the House concerning the expenditure of public money, and, of course, in this particular area, the funds that will be needed by the various departments to carry out their functions in the forthcoming year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI was on the Officers of Parliament Committee when these matters were discussed. I wish to record my concern in so far as Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is concerned. As I recall it, some funds were being made available for travel. One always becomes concerned as to just how far this travel will extend, financially and literally, what people will come to New Zealand to visit us in return, and just how this might grow. I record that New Zealand First has expressed its concern with regard to the utilisation of public funds in the area of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. We will make sure that it does not become excessive in the future. We have a very good Commission for the Environment, and a very good concept. New Zealand has always been a place where the environment has been fully appreciated, whether or not there has been some statutory body associated with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI turn to Vote Ombudsmen. I am concerned as to whether sufficient funds would be available. I note in particular pages 27, 28, and 29 of the Ombudsmen\u2019s report, for the year ended 30 June 2002, in relation to those aspects of the Official Information Act and advice from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet to the Prime Minister. The statement on page 27 states: \u201CA significant issue arising this year has been the extent to which advice from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet to the Prime Minister may be withheld. A series of complaints were received regarding what was perceived to be a \u2018class approach\u2019 taken to the withholding of such information.\u201D The report states that at the heart of the decision to withhold information was a fundamental concern that in order to carry out the role of Prime Minister effectively, the incumbent must be able to receive and rely on, with confidence, free and frank advice from his or her advisers. Clearly, that concern is valid. It is in the public interest for the Prime Minister of the day to receive such advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe report states further: \u201CHowever, the Official Information Act does not provide any basis for blanket withholding of information generated by the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet as an exempt \u2018class of information\u2019. Requests for such information must be assessed on a case-by-case basis against the tests for withholding set out in the Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI wonder whether adequate funds are made available this year, for example, with regard to the letters written or not written by officials in the Prime Minister\u2019s department in respect of the apology to President Bush. As an Opposition party we should be entitled, in terms of the Official Information Act provisions of Vote Ombudsmen, to have access to such letters. That is our parliamentary duty. I believe that it is set out in the principles of Vote Ombudsmen and in the principles of the Official Information Act. The withholding of such information, which is set out in the Ombudsmen\u2019s report, is very valid. I ask the Prime Minister to get back to New Zealand and to let us have details of the letter or letters that may or may not have been written in terms of the Official Information Act requirements. We should have this information released to the public of New Zealand. It should not be withheld on the basis of her views on the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIn terms of the funding in this particular area, there should be adequate funds for the Ombudsman to have the money to obtain that information from the Prime Minister\u2019s department. I ask the next Government member who takes a call to say whether he or she is satisfied that such funding is available. It would seem to be a very difficult and expensive task to have the time and facilities available to keep pursuing the Prime Minister, to get this information from her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E I believe that there is not sufficient funding available in this vote to get this information. Why is the information not made available immediately, to make it unnecessary to have such funding? Why is it that time and time again Opposition members have to make demands of the Prime Minister to get this information? I remember a time when the Prime Minister was very strong on things like open government. If she were still strong on open government then the question of funding would not arise. I remember a time when the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, was very strong on answerability by the Government to the Opposition. Well, we want her to be answerable. Is there enough funding in this vote to enable us to pursue the question of whether we could make the Prime Minister answerable to the public of New Zealand? That point is raised as a criticism in this particular report. Perhaps it has not been noticed by other parties in this House. New Zealand First is concerned that in this report the Ombudsman has expressed a criticism of the way in which this Prime Minister and the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet are handling its affairs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe know that the Ombudsman is loathe to criticise Ministers, and would be even more loathe to criticise a Prime Minister. But there is clearly an implicit criticism of the way in which this department is handling the affairs of State. The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet clearly is of concern to the Ombudsman, and it is of concern to New Zealand First. We want to make sure that we can get access to those letters that have been written, and that there is sufficient funding in this vote to have that access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe want the Prime Minister to tell us why she will make it so difficult for us to get this information. Why is she swanning around at services overseas, when she is needed here in New Zealand to answer such questions and to answer the need for the funding to enable us to bring this information to hand? I wish to draw that matter to the attention of this House. The Ombudsman is very right in bringing this matter to the attention of the country, and New Zealand First will be making sure that all steps are taken to ensure that there are adequate funds to get to the bottom of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022bffce39d7a6649e49b807afa1fce2111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bffce39d7a6649e49b807afa1fce2111\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as a Green member of the Officers of Parliament Committee to support this motion. I have been very pleasantly surprised at how well the Officers of Parliament system works and how accountable the officers are. In terms of the budget provided by this Parliament, there has been a very cooperative relationship between the three Officers of Parliament and the committee in achieving common ground on what the increases in their expenditure should be. I think that the three Officers of Parliament are all doing a good job. The last speaker indicated how they were willing to challenge authority in the case he referred to, to make sure that advice provided to the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet is not, as a class, deemed confidential and unavailable to the public, and that each case, under the Official Information Act, has to be provided on a case by case basis. I think that that in itself shows the importance of the Ombudsmen in helping the public to get access to public information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI do support what Mr Lindsay Tisch said earlier about the load on the Ombudsmen, the efficiency of the Office of the Ombudsmen, and the annual report. He mentioned the large number of complaints and the time the office spends on them, with a relatively small staff. I and the last speaker have been talking about the application of the Official Information Act, and in the 2002 annual report it is stated that there were 863 Official Information Act investigations, 18 percent of them from members of Parliament. Out of those 863 cases, 66 percent were resolved in favour of the complainant, or some assistance was given to the complainant to get the information he or she required. I think that that in itself shows two things. It shows the importance of the Office of the Ombudsmen in terms of making sure there is access to the Official Information Act, and it also shows, I think, that Government departments perhaps need to be a little more open with the provisions of the Official Information Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere was reference in Mr Tisch\u2019s speech to the work of the Office of the Ombudsmen in relation to prisoners. I think it is important that prisoners have the ability to make appeals to the Office of the Ombudsmen. It is difficult in a prison environment if things go wrong, or if there is some mistreatment or injustice, for prisoners to get proper redress. I think that the Office of the Ombudsmen is very valuable there, and it has performed good work. The ombudsmen now cover all the local government agencies, as well, and I think that the ability of the ombudsmen to delve into those issues is ensuring greater transparency for local government. In the report, the Ombudsman does raise an issue, now that they do cover education agencies of the State. There is the question that they do make accountable and transparent the operation of education agencies, but there are private training establishments that are provided with similar Government funds for the work they do and that are not subject to the Ombudsman\u2019s investigations, and there is a certain inequality there. So, all in all, I think that the Office of the Ombudsmen has done very well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI also want to talk about the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment who has done excellent work. He has addressed many of the questions that we in this Parliament have to address, and he provides information, advice, and analysis for our own work. Just today we have been talking about the electricity problems in this country. It is interesting to look at the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2019s annual report and see that the office is developing an electricity audit framework. It is trying to make sure that electricity generation and provision to the population is done in an environmentally sustainable manner. In the last annual report, there is a sentence that is quite relevant. It states: \u201CIn the electricity sector where RMA resource consent processes focus on managing effects on the local environment\u201D less account is taken of \u201Cenvironmental effects at a national or international level. This has the potential to lead to more thermal electricity generation being established rather than renewable energy sources, such as hydro or wind.\u201D I think that is very relevant in the light of our international commitment that we are developing to the Kyoto Protocol, and the crisis we are in at the present time. We need much more national planning in terms of demand management and extra generating capacity, and making sure, as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment does project in its annual report, that it should be more in the direction of renewable energy such as hydro or wind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIf members read the annual report, they will see that there is a section on public transport. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment led an 18-person study tour to the Brazilian town of Curitiba, which has a model transport system. It has been on television in New Zealand. Around the world people are looking to Curitiba, and that 18-person study tour has had huge flow-on effects. I know that in Auckland recently a seminar was initiated by some of the councillors who went on that study tour with the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. The ripple effects of that study tour are going out throughout the community. The report talks about the whole question of what measures we need to develop in order to get a balanced transport system\u2014a balance between road and different alternatives to roads\u2014and the importance, the Parliamentary Commissioner says, of adequately valuing the space requirements for different modes of transport, adequately valuing pedestrian space as against parking spaces, not just giving priority to parking spaces, and how to value public transport corridors, which I think is very important. I come from Auckland, and I think the valuation that the citizens are now putting on the bus lanes is increasing month by month. People understand the importance of that space being given to buses even if it does take a lane off the car traffic. It has increased public transport usage dramatically and made transport more efficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe parliamentary commissioner also produced a very important document last year: Creating our future: Sustainable development for New Zealand. It has important recommendations, and some criticisms, really, that Governments to date have not really developed the sorts of approaches that are required. It talks about the need for much more long-term planning to protect our environment. The recommendations in this major document state that the Minister of Local Government, in consultation with Local Government New Zealand, should develop guidelines for local authorities on preparing long-term community plans dealing with environmental, economic, social, and cultural sustainability, consistent with the principles of Agenda 21, the Rio declaration. It proposes that the Prime Minister establish an advisory body responsible for overseeing and coordinating the implementation of the Government\u2019s proposed New Zealand strategy on sustainable development. It goes on to explain some of the things that such a strategy should develop. There is a lack\u2014it is pointed out by the parliamentary commissioner\u2014of real national planning, because environmental planning cannot be done just on a local level. It has to be done by the Government through this strategy, through the harnessing of communities across the country, and through the establishment of such an advisory body. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think that all three Officers of Parliament have done a good job. The Audit Office is doing a good job, of course. I see in its work plan this year that it is doing a study of overseas development assistance. Auditing that will be very valuable. It is doing a study of private-public partnerships to see whether there is really much of an advantage to New Zealanders in going down that track. It is all very valuable work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00228242986ad91d419ab6604e870e476f3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228242986ad91d419ab6604e870e476f3c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak on the appropriations for the three Offices of Parliament: the Audit Office, the Office of the Ombudsmen, and the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. These offices, of course, are constitutional anomalies in a sense. They are offices that report directly to Parliament. They are intended to be watchdogs on the executive, the Crown, in theory, for Parliament. It is the time of year when we should be reviewing to see whether we are getting value for money from those people employed by Parliament directly to allow Parliament to know that the Crown, the executive, the people who report to Cabinet Ministers, are doing what the law says they should do and no more, and that power is not being abused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI look at the offices that I know most about. I was an officer of the Office of the Ombudsmen for 2 years, so there is a certain sentimental regard when I look at the appropriations for the Office of the Ombudsmen. I have to say I was a low-level investigating officer. I had no regard for its budget\u2014I do not know what it was. But I always look at the work of the ombudsmen and the people who work in that office with a great degree of interest. I was intrigued to notice that $100,000 extra is recommended for allocation by Parliament, to enable the Office of the Ombudsmen to defend proceedings brought by the Crown Law Office against the decision that the Ministry of Social Development must release tenant address information to the Department for Courts so that tenancy judgment orders can be enforced. It seems so absolutely obvious that the Crown should be acting in what the Government is pleased to call\u2014what is the term? It is \u201Cwhole-of Government\u201D. That is the funny term for it\u2014a whole-of-Government approach. In other words, the left hand should at least be supporting what the right hand is doing. People should be expecting the Government to be consistent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EHere we have a situation where the Office of the Ombudsmen\u2019s time, energy, and money, appropriated by this Parliament, will be used to defend a decision of the ombudsman that would seem to be so bleedingly obvious, to use a recently sanctified phrase, that it defies belief. That the Department for Courts has to get the Ombudsman to ask the Ministry of Social Development for tenant address information to enforce tenancy judgment orders is just unbelievable. How can anyone in the social policy area expect landlords of any kind to be willing to provide tenant accommodation if the Government colludes in looking after the tenancy bludgers\u2014the ones who let all the others down, the ones who put up the cost, the ones who add to the risk of being a landlord, the ones who create the environment where excessive rentals can be justified on the grounds of risk? Here we have the Office of the Ombudsmen making a sensible decision\u2014that of course the Department for Courts should have access to the information the Government has. How many tenants would not expect the Government to work in that way? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen I was in the Office of the Ombudsmen I dealt with complaints against the Inland Revenue Department. There was a very clear recognition that the Inland Revenue Department was different from all other departments, that the information one gave to the Inland Revenue Department was held sacrosanct, and that one could be a prostitute or a bookie, or engaged in all kinds of activity that the rest of the State did not approve of, but the Inland Revenue Department would keep it sacrosanct. Conversely, I think citizens expected that if the Government got information in any other capacity, it used it for proper Government purposes\u2014and here we have to give the Office of the Ombudsmen $100,000 to defend itself against the Crown Law Office, on behalf of the social welfare Minister, Mr Maharey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI am also fascinated by the appropriations for the Commissioner for the Environment. That is not because I know a great deal about what the commissioner has been up to but because I do not know a great deal about what he has been up to. Here I am, a member of Parliament, and I expected that our Commissioner for the Environment would be a guiding light, and that he would have thrown a great deal of sunlight on some of the really hard issues. For example, a Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, I would have thought, would have an active interest in the \u201Ccorngate\u201D affair. This is an issue where Parliament needs objective information. Instead, a parliamentary select committee is embroiled in a political stoush over what is the reality or truth in the \u201Ccorngate\u201D affair. Was the Prime Minister involved in some sort of collusive activity with the Minister for the Environment to suppress information about the release of a genetically modified organism? I am surprised that we did not hear the Green speaker who has just finished, asking why the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment was not deep into this in order to make sure that Parliament really knew what had happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI look at others. We are importing Indonesian coal to run our power stations\u2014Indonesian coal, from the people raping Indonesia, as we hear. We are importing Indonesian coal to burn and to inject into the environment we all have to share. I have not heard a peep from the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment on the consistency and whole-of-Government approach that has the Department of Conservation blocking coalmining on the West Coast. In another of my earlier existences, I was on the board of Coal Corporation of New Zealand. [Interruption] The United Future member is mentioning hydro schemes. The fact is that we should expect this commissioner to be the one who says: \u201CHey, there\u2019s an anomaly here. Parliament has three or four different kinds of legislation. It is getting various reports. Different departments are doing different things, but it\u2019s not hanging together.\u201D The commissioner should be asking the Department of Conservation why it is blocking the mining of coal in New Zealand when we have what someone said in the House today was 800 years\u2019 worth of coal. Instead of allowing New Zealand coal to be mined, we are importing 600,000 tonnes of coal into Auckland from Australia and Indonesia, and we could have been providing that ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIf the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment was using his $2 million in the way I had expected we would benefit, for genuine environmentalism, we might have had some idea of the value of time spent in traffic jams, and about the emissions from time spent in traffic jams. We might have had an audit of the spurious claims about deaths from exhaust emissions, based on overseas models and not properly applied to New Zealand conditions. We might have had a review of the claims about people dying of cold because power is not available to them. Again, it may be that the commissioner has put out something clear and objective on this and I just have not come across it, but he is our commissioner and I still do not know whether it is true that anyone in New Zealand dies of cold because they do not have enough electricity, when they could have put a jersey on or put a hot water bottle in their bed. It is possible. I saw a claim very recently that New Zealand houses had to have a whole lot of fibreglass batts in them because we were dying in our homes because they were too cold. That seems to me eminently something that the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment should have got into.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment should have been looking at the new local government bill, the Resource Management Act. He should have been looking at the restraints on transmission, and at the problem of the national grid not having enough capacity to move power between Auckland and Wellington, or between the South Island and Auckland, in a way that would allow more hydro and less gas and diesel generation. Probably, we will see all over the country in the next few months inefficient diesel generation at an individual level. I believe that the $2 million the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment is being paid should have been put under strict scrutiny. I see no reason in this report for continuing with this office. Though it is a godmother and apple pie thing, it is time it was reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022794ec206aff246d0877e2c8f38d6d916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022794ec206aff246d0877e2c8f38d6d916\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I could refer to the three votes in question in a general way, as Stephen Franks has\u2014as the watchdog functions of the New Zealand Parliament. I could also perhaps describe them as being a kind of triple bottom line accounting for the affairs of this nation: Vote Audit, to ensure that the income and expenditure of the Crown has been accounted for in accordance with international best practice and the ethics that relate to good stewardship of those resources; Vote Ombudsman, to ensure that the overall apparatus of the Government adheres to the principles of justice, fair play, and openness, which is so much at the heart of our society; and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment\u2014which completes the troika\u2014to ensure that all of us remain aware that we are merely guardians of the precious and beautiful environment that makes New Zealand not only the most beautiful country in the world but also a country that is great to live in, to raise a family in, and to come home to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESpeaking about the Commissioner for the Environment, I would like to endorse the comments made by Stephens Franks on behalf of the ACT party concerning the nonsense of having perfectly viable hydro electricity schemes in this country turned down by people who claim to be guarding the environment or to have an interest in conservation whilst, concurrently, this winter we will be importing fuel oil and coal to generate electricity. The reality is that the water in our rivers and lakes falls from the sky, and is completely free, and hydro is completely in line with very sensible conservation outcomes\u2014by which I mean the management of natural resources in a way that enhances the environment. With those comments I signal United Future\u2019s support of this motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00222b7fc841775c4e9c856a7fbada5e2b46\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b7fc841775c4e9c856a7fbada5e2b46\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I join with others in speaking to motion No. 1, which provides for the parliamentary vote for Vote Ombudsmen, Vote Audit, and Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. As the National spokesperson on the environment, I particularly want to focus on the vote for the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. A number of speakers have commented on the issue of the power crisis, and that is important in terms of the recommendations provided for in the report on the Offices of Parliament that there be an increase in the appropriation for the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment to provide specifically for a review of the electricity governance organisations, and I want to speak to some of those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI commend the United Future party and the contribution that has just been made by Mr Copeland for highlighting the nonsense and the environmental lunacy that is currently going on, whereby we are so pure in stopping sensible developments of sustainable energy in New Zealand that we end up in a crisis that has us burning oil and importing coal to meet this country\u2019s energy needs. That is a fundamental failure of public policy. But I have to challenge my colleague from United Future, because we have heard, in terms of the changes to the Resource Management Act, that his party is supporting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a75c139aa224c19acaaa9656a462b6c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can refer to those issues in so far as they concern these votes, and whether the vote should be approved. It is not a general discussion on policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c3113d8add453a83fcb94af33a9450\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment provides for an increase specifically on the issue of electricity generation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f840c282a30749baa086ad433c16ab4c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And the member can say whether he is in favour of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223039c5583b844c4a8fcac8372533194\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me finish my point of order, if I may.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c92f7f193b4e2eabf42c6f1e7274c2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is only using up his own time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcdb9c56a961446dadd5d439c943058c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: What a touchy mood you are in today, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a24b1b2e49e344079069c8aef72dda9d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is just about to have his speech terminated. I ask him to please carry on with his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272ae27867f164d5c87b7efb099df3577\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My reference is this: the United Future party members cannot give speeches, such as the speech that has just been given in respect of Vote Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, expressing concerns about issues of energy while at the same time supporting law that will make the very issues of energy more difficult. We need a Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment for exactly those sorts of reasons\u2014to hold those sorts of contradictions to account. I challenge that party, if it is going to stand by the sort of contribution it has made, to rethink its views about resource management, because that party is part of the problem at the moment, not part of the solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to challenge the Government in respect of the nonsense we have seen on issues such as the Resource Management Act. I want to see the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment look at the lunacy around such issues that is dragging Government agencies into debates about cultural landscapes, ancestral landscapes, and chasing taniwha instead of focusing on key environmental issues. This country\u2019s energy crisis is a very serious issue for this Parliament. It will have a very substantial effect on both the economic and social well-being of our country. It will have an adverse environmental impact. It is just the sort of work that is required of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, and that is why National supports an increase in the vote, specifically for that purpose\u2014for Dr Morgan Williams and his team at the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is a further issue that I specifically wish to raise in respect of this vote. Today I want to call on the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment to use the additional financial resources to carry out an inquiry into what I think is an environmental disaster for this country\u2014that is, what is going on with the Rotorua lakes. We have a beautiful set of lakes in the upper North Island\u2014in Rotorua and in the area surrounding Hamilton. What occurred over this last summer\u2014I refer to the blue-green algae\u2014was an environmental disaster. It is a tragedy that neither the Minister nor the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, or even the Green Party, has shown a blind bit of interest in that environmental disaster. Last summer, Lake Rotoiti, one of the most used recreational lakes in New Zealand, became so polluted from blue-green algae that people cannot swim in it or drink from it. It was estimated that up to 300,000 people use that lake over the summer, but this year that did not occur. If it were only Lake Rotoiti that was of concern, we might not get so excited, but the reality is that there are over 15 popular recreational lakes in the upper half of the North Island that are in one great environmental mess, and, in my view, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment should apply urgent attention to that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI get so frustrated that this Parliament and this Government spent so much time on an issue like genetic technology, which is a non-issue, posing no substantive threat to the health and well-being of the environment of this nation, yet on an important issue like the environmental well-being of our lakes, nobody seems to give a toss. The Minister for the Environment has even used her powers to stop sensible rules from being put in place. I have a photo here of stock openly wandering around those lakes, contributing to the nutrification of those lakes, and the Minister makes submissions to the Bay of Plenty Regional Council, baulking at rules that would help fix up that sort of difficulty. So I challenge the Government, and the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment in particular, to give some attention to the national disaster that is taking place in those North Island lakes. I stress that those lakes are tremendous environmental and recreational assets for New Zealand. The way in which those lakes have been polluted, and the way in which public authorities have failed to address the fundamental issues\u2014the algae bloom that is causing the toxicity in the lakes, the smell, and the discolouration, and the lack of the capacity to be able to drink or even swim in those waters\u2014are matters that need attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EOn behalf of National I compliment the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner on the Environment on the good work it does. It does need to keep a strong focus on science, not politics. I bring the important issue of poor energy policy, as well as the issues affecting the Rotorua lakes, to the attention of that office in the hope that the financial resources, which we are in support of, will be wisely used to address those issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to, and Address agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022034470b8bb0742b59ad7ec68bff79a43\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b492876a8356463fa8b874232926d72a\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002212674dbb38464b2f83224feb0783ac11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212674dbb38464b2f83224feb0783ac11\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to take Government notices of motion Nos. 2 to 4 as one question, pursuant to discussion in the Business Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290549fea70584be89cf771ad58cbc34d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is not. Please move accordingly. Could I point out to the Leader of the House that if he cares to read them out I will put the question separately at the end of the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7da760b66a742dd9bb98d2b1c14e5b5\u0022\u003ERetirements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d599e17532e0456dbf7f3346f2167c5d\u0022\u003EChief Ombudsman\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022357235f5018c4560b041127f956feb38\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f111a288feb43d792b5a7c7a6b42293\u0022\u003EChief Ombudsman and Ombudsmen\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7e90654be4a44458234e342ead576d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7e90654be4a44458234e342ead576d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this House, taking note of the forthcoming retirement of Sir Brian George Conway Elwood, CBE, as Chief Ombudsman, place on record its appreciation of Sir Brian\u2019s service as an Officer of Parliament since 1992; further note his earlier distinguished public and local government service, including periods as Mayor of Palmerston North, President of the Municipal Association of New Zealand, and Chairman of the Local Government Commission; and wish Sir Brian and Lady Elwood a happy retirement. I think that the motion is long enough and actually covers the speech that I was going to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESecondly, I move, That, pursuant to section 3 of the Ombudsmen Act 1975, this House recommends Her Excellency the Governor-General to appoint Maurice John Belgrave as an Ombudsman and to appoint him as Chief Ombudsman, for a term commencing on 1 July 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI also move, That, pursuant to section 8 of the Ombudsmen Act 1975, this House recommends Her Excellency the Governor-General to reappoint Melwyn Purefoy Smith of Wellington as an additional Ombudsman for a period of two years, commencing on 5 June 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EObviously, having touched upon Sir Brian\u2019s long career, I say that he served particularly as the head of the Local Government Commission during its most active period between 1985 and 1992, and while there was much bitter, and indeed at times almost vicious, political opposition to the reforms that Sir Brian headed, I notice that not a single one of those reforms was subsequently undone, and that some of those who were most active in opposing them now call very actively for them to be taken a great deal further in terms of local government reform and amalgamation of local authorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIn terms of John Belgrave, I say that he has a very long, distinguished career in the public sector, with some brief periods in the private sector. John initially served with the Department of Trade and Industry, and served in a number of roles overseas in London, Melbourne, and Tokyo. He then held senior executive positions in the public service: Assistant Secretary to the Department of Trade and Industry, Assistant Director-General in the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, and chief executive positions as Comptroller of Customs, Secretary to the Minister of Commerce, Secretary to the Department of Commerce, and then Secretary of the Ministry of Justice from 1994 to 1997. He was Executive Director of the New Zealand Bankers Association for a couple of years, Executive Director of the Electricity Supply Association for 2 years, chair of the Standards Council, chair of the Institute of Policy Studies at Victoria University, and, since 1999, chair of the Commerce Commission. So he brings an enormous range of experience to the office of Chief Ombudsman\u2014an office that inevitably brings him, on occasions, into conflict with all kinds of different people, both Government and others. The Ombudsman\u2019s position is one of those positions where one is never going to please everybody all the time, but it is a matter of carrying it out with integrity and honour. I think it can clearly be said that Mr Belgrave has the qualifications for that task, as Sir Brian Elwood has had the qualifications for the task since 1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EMel Smith was appointed an additional Ombudsman at the end of 2001, for 18 months, and this motion reappoints Mr Smith for a term of 2 years. He was previously a Deputy Secretary for Internal Affairs, and then, rather extraordinarily I think, was the acting chief executive of four agencies\u2014the Department of Justice, the Government Superannuation Fund, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Social Policy. He has performed, I think, with distinction as an additional Ombudsman since his appointment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec75be73d9c545caa4f08cf8e8f10177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec75be73d9c545caa4f08cf8e8f10177\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party has pleasure in supporting motion No. 2 on Sir Brian Elwood\u2019s retirement. As the House is aware, there was a function before the Easter adjournment but time did not allow for the official recognition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESir Brian, as the Leader of the House has said, was appointed Ombudsman in 1992, and was appointed Chief Ombudsman on 14 December 1994. Today this House records with gratitude Sir Brian\u2019s unselfish devotion and distinguished public and local government service. The Office of the Ombudsmen has made considerable progress over the years, and has earned the respect of the public and of this House. Sir Brian has enjoyed the confidence of all who have dealt with him, and on behalf of the National Party I wish him and Lady Elwood the very best for a long and happy retirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn speaking to motion No. 2 concerning the appointment of Mr John Belgrave, I say that this parliamentary appointment has the support of the whole House. John Belgrave, much like the person he succeeds, has had a distinguished career. Many will know him and know of his qualifications\u2014indeed, they will know of his experience. The Leader of the House highlighted some of those positions, but I want to add to that. Mr Belgrave has been involved deeply and directly in New Zealand economic and trade policy development and implementation, both in New Zealand and overseas. In recent years he has been involved directly in the development and implementation of competition policy right across the economy. Mr Belgrave has had a comprehensive exposure to New Zealand commerce and industry, particularly as Secretary of Commerce, and through his work with the banking and electricity industries. He also has a good knowledge of consumer interests, having had overall responsibility for the Ministry of Consumer Affairs, which was part of the Ministry of Commerce. As a consequence, he has a very good working knowledge, in addition to the policy perspective, of New Zealand\u2019s economic regulatory statutes. Mr Belgrave is well suited to the role of Chief Ombudsman, and National wishes him every success in this role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIn speaking to motion No. 3, I say that Mr Mel Smith was appointed an Ombudsman in December 2001 and National supports his reappointment to that position for a period of 2 years, commencing 5 June 2003. With Mr John Belgrave, Judge Anand Satyanand, and Mr Mel Smith as the three Ombudsmen, we can be assured of the highest standard of service and commitment. National has pleasure in supporting all three motions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022f28279b827054784875869d5be4a3605\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f28279b827054784875869d5be4a3605\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I join with the other speakers in supporting the three motions. All three persons have been mentioned by the previous speakers. I can say that the public has been extremely well served by Sir Brian George Conway Elwood, who made his name in local government and added to it with great excellence in his position as Chief Ombudsman. I am sure that the two new appointees, in their continuation of terms and such like, will perform excellently for New Zealand and the public as officers of Parliament. New Zealand First supports all the motions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00222100ef65b3f145249aef2320389da4cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222100ef65b3f145249aef2320389da4cf\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E For ACT, I also state our intention to support these three motions. In relation to Sir Brian Elwood, a retirement of this kind gives pause for reflection on a disability we now suffer under in relation to the replacements. It is highly suitable that we can commend Sir Brian. On National Radio over the weekend, I heard Sir Brian interviewed about how he saw public affairs, and the term \u201Csir\u201D could be used. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI went to the Office of the Ombudsmen immediately after Sir Guy Powles. Sir Guy had established that office with a reputation that could easily have gone the other way. We had imported a mechanism, an office\u2014even a description\u2014from Scandinavia, and the first appointment was absolutely critical to establishing its clout. Because it had a recommending and reporting role, not a compulsion role, that clout came not from the legal provisions, but from the personal qualities of the people who have held that office. Sir Guy was followed by Sir George Laking who, I am pleased to say, is still alive at 90, and still following public affairs actively. I have had a message from him today, and I was very proud to have served under Sir George. Then there was Mr Lester Castle, and others, all of whom have upheld the honour of that office. It makes me very sorry to think that if Mr Belgrave and Mel Smith managed to maintain that high standard, they will not be recognised or addressed by the public in terms of a status and office description. We should be able to offer to our honoured high officials more than the simple term \u201Ccommissioner\u201D. I think the commission itself is enhanced by the expectation that a worthy performer gets an honorific such as \u201Csir\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI want to turn now to the particular things that will mark the term in office of the two individuals that the motions relate to. After Sir Brian\u2019s retirement, they will have to continue with the very difficult task of presiding over a regime in relation to the Official Information Act that is now out of fashion. In the late 1970s\u2014as sunlight is a disinfectant\u2014freedom of information, New Zealand\u2019s version of the Official Information Act, and the extension of the Ombudsman\u2019s role in relation to it, were seen as natural developments of Government. Openness is one of the prices we ought to pay for having a healthy modern civilisation, but in the last 10 years we have suddenly turned that principle on its head. Privacy has become a value that now supplants openness, and the matter in the report of the Officers of Parliament Committee typifies that. I hope that Mel Smith and Mr Belgrave will wholeheartedly defend the action being brought against them by the Ministry of Social Policy and Work and Income New Zealand. That is a classic example of the tension I have mentioned, and it is one that is particularly important when there are two senior internal appointments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EEffectively, Mr Belgrave and Mr Smith are internal appointments. They have both worked for many years in the public service\u2014unlike Sir Brian, who came from outside and had a long time as a lawyer in general practice. He then had a long period in local government, and so could be expected to approach Government and the exercise of executive power from the perspective of someone who at times must have been frustrated by it, and who knew what it was like to feel a helpless citizen against not only city hall but the central State. I think there is a bit of concern that we are dealing with two nominees, both of whom have been loyal, diligent, effective public servants, but have not had notable experience of the other side. It is a note of warning, but it is not saying that they will not perform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ECrown Law is suing the Office of the Ombudsmen to try to prevent the implementation of a decision that the Department of Social Welfare should allow the Department for Courts the addresses of dud tenants so that court judgments against them can be enforced. That is a touchstone issue, and I earnestly hope that both the new ombudsmen will see it as a cause that they should take up with all energy. That is particularly important, because Mr Smith has spent time recently in the justice portfolio, and has had a very active involvement in looking at what the courts have been doing. I hope his natural inclination is to make sure that the courts are just as effective as they possibly can be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EA further concern is that sometimes when people are appointed at the end of very long and successful careers and do not have reasonable assurance of their terms, there is a possibility of too much power being preserved, or too little independence. Maybe someone from the Officers of Parliament Committee can clarify that issue, as I am not sure whether there is any formal or informal understanding about the length of term of these appointments. Certainly, we got very good value from some of those people for a long time after their appointments. I hope it is not anticipated that there will be a regular and short-term turnover of those very important officers, when they prove to be as good as some of the ones we have had\u2014in particular, Sir Brian Elwood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002255dd23d782ff407a9edabc6196c23a9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255dd23d782ff407a9edabc6196c23a9a\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of United Future, I would like to mark the retirement of Sir Brian Elwood as our Chief Ombudsman by honouring the distinguished service he has rendered to that office and to the people of New Zealand since 1992. The role of Ombudsman is very much what its incumbent makes it. Sir Brian has enhanced the reputation and credibility of that office in the eyes of the citizens of this nation, and that is the ultimate accolade to a person who has dedicated his life to public service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI also take the opportunity to congratulate John Belgrave on his appointment as Chief Ombudsman and to wish him well. He will have large shoes to fill, and unless I am very much mistaken, he will prove himself equal to the task and live up to the high standards established by his predecessor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EMotion relating to Sir Brian Elwood agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EMotion relating to Mr John Belgrave agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EMotion relating to Mr Mel Smith agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022045ab72008014fc29610a46b64fbe7d0\u0022\u003EMinimum Wage Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221785dab7a039406097af43be1f0d9d06\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ef5a075bd71412dbdb1f8bce684857c\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3ecba0abd3e4cef898e46518b06e2e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3ecba0abd3e4cef898e46518b06e2e8\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (NZ National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E While debating the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill clause by clause we are struck by the fact that there are only four clauses in this thin, small bill, which has had a chequered history through this House. We are concerned at the moment with the title, and in particular the reference in the title clause to the Minimum Wage Act being the principal Act. I know that my colleague the Hon Tony Ryall will be formally tabling an amendment to the title of the bill but, interestingly, and as has been said many times when debating the title of any bill, it is incumbent upon that title to reflect accurately what is contained in the bill. Unfortunately, the title Minimum Wage Amendment Bill does not reflect what is in the bill at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI will give a bit of background to what the title should be. This bill essentially removes the exemption from the minimum wage provision that applies to those who undertake at least 60 credits of training per year towards a qualification on the national qualifications framework. What is disturbing about that is the fact that this bill could well affect the numbers who undertake apprenticeship training and the system of that training in this country. That is what concerns members on this side of the Chamber. For the bill to reflect that concern it should be called either the \u201CRepeal Training Exemption Bill\u201D or, alternatively, the \u201CUndermine the Apprenticeship Training Scheme Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe biggest worry for those on this side of the Chamber is that the whole point of that previous exemption was that the cost to the employer of providing practical training was recognised. It was, if one likes, the first step on the ladder for young people entering an employment relationship, and provided a practical way of offsetting some of the costs to the employer of the risk of taking on those young people. What would be a substantial concern to members on this side of the Chamber is that the long-term implications of this bill could well mean a decline in the amount of training provided by employers. That would worry us. On-site training has been proven to be a productive way to bring young people into any workforce, to offer an opportunity that would otherwise not have been available to them, and, as I said earlier, effectively to give that young person the ability to get his or her foot on the first rung of that ladder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis legislation, which is somewhat wrongly entitled the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill, removes the exemption that allows that apprenticeship training to occur. The greatest concern on this side of the Chamber is the fact that that could have the reverse effect to what is intended by this bill, which is, one would imagine, to reward young people for work done at a rate similar to the minimum wage. We say that simply to take away the exemption could leave employers in a situation where they just do not take people on, and where training is not an option that they consider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWho is that going to help? Will that help the young person who is trying to get his or her first step on that ladder to employment? Will it encourage the employer to take that first risk to give that young person a go, and to give that young person the crucial experience he or she needs? We hear so often from a young person: \u201CI can\u2019t get my foot in the door because they tell me I haven\u2019t got the experience to do the job.\u201D What is this Government about to do? It is about to legislate to take away one of the tools available to the employer to provide that experience to those young people. We on this side of the Chamber say that that is a grave, grave shame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e25fadac5aef4960baaf0ad7079947f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e25fadac5aef4960baaf0ad7079947f9\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to give support to the broad intention of this bill. I rise also because the minimum wage issue before us in the title clause is one that is worthy in respect of the issues covered by the last speaker at the lower level, or, at the higher level, worthy in respect of giving a real opportunity to people in training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EMy experience in working with such schemes over the last 12 years has been, by and large, that employers\u2014or would-be employers in the training sense\u2014are doing their utmost to try to keep within the framework envisaged by the training schemes. My experience has been not so much with apprenticeships unfortunately, but with training providers. This bill will give sustenance and opportunity with regard to the financial rewards that such training deserves. The only problem that New Zealand First has is not with the provision of training schemes such as we have here, but with the vision of those that do not meet these criteria and with the numerous shonky training schemes that we know of around the country. One scheme in Auckland, recently mentioned in this Chamber, had met no such provision and the trainees, or so-called trainees, were working virtually as slave labour. That is also the issue for other training schemes I can speak about, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe clause is correctly named because these young people\u2014and mostly they are young, although they may be in a second-chance situation\u2014are deserving of a reasonable opportunity not just for training but also for receiving a wage commensurate with that. In particular, this bill was conceived and put together in 2001, but in 2003 when the National Certificate of Educational Achievement and unit standards are far more accepted as the broad qualifications for trade training and training of any sort, this bill is needed more now than it was at its inception in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EOn behalf of New Zealand First and on behalf of our spokesperson, the Hon Brian Donnelly, I say that we support and commend the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002203c9fa1461914ab3843ce82d08785ab0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203c9fa1461914ab3843ce82d08785ab0\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make it very clear that the National Party in Opposition is opposing this bill. The reason we are opposing it is that it will cost jobs, it will cost the taxpayers through increased benefits, and it will cost business through additional compliance costs. Do members know how I know that? I know, because in this piece of paper known as the bill, the Government has told Parliament that that will happen. That is why the National Party is moving an amendment stating that the title of the bill should reflect what the bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOur amendment states that the bill should be referred to as the \u201CRepeal of the Training Exemption Bill\u201D. That is a fairer description of what this bill does. It could also be called \u201CThe Bill That is Going to Cost Young People Training Opportunities Bill\u201D. That is exactly what it will do, and I can justify that on the basis of the Government\u2019s own report to this House. In the explanatory note to the bill, under the heading \u201CStatement of net benefit of this proposal\u201D, the Government says there will be an impact on the Government\u2019s finances, from increased benefit payments. That means the dole. That means that kids who at the moment are getting the training exemption\u2014and the words \u201Ctraining exemption\u201D should be in the title of the bill\u2014are going to lose their jobs. The Government says so on page 3 of the explanatory note. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOn page 4 of the explanatory note, our left-wing minority Labour Government says there will be a decline in the amount of training provided by employers. The bill states there will be a decline in the amount of training provided by employers. That is what this bill will do as a result of removing the minimum wage exemption for young people in training, and, what is more, the Government\u2019s own document says there will be additional costs on business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EMembers need to know what this bill does. Right now, it says that young people who are learning skills, the equivalent of 60 credits on the national framework, will not be covered by the minimum wage. The reason they do that is that many of the job opportunities, the on-the-job training opportunities for young people, have an element of training that costs the employer, and part of the deal is that there is a lower compensation for those workers, because they are getting the added benefit of on-the-job training\u2014and do we not need as much on-the-job training as possible? The Government\u2019s own document says that all the money being spent on training schemes up and down the country is wasted because it is not contributing to people getting into work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party is opposed to anything that will add increased costs to business, cause inflexibility to the labour market, and cost young people jobs. That is why we want to change the title of the bill. This bill is not about the minimum wage; it is about removing the exemption, and that will affect a whole lot of young people\u201426,000 young people, the select committee was advised. The Government\u2019s own documentation\u2014the report that the Government has tabled in this Parliament\u2014states there will be an adverse impact on the Government\u2019s finances from increased benefit payments. That means that some of those 26,000 young people will lose their training jobs and go on the dole. That is what the Government is telling Parliament. Is that the reason United Future members want to support this bill? Do they want to support it so that 26,000 young people can lose their jobs? I will be shocked if United Future members support this bill. I ask them not to, so that young people can have training opportunities. I ask New Zealand First members to give those 26,000 young people an opportunity. I say to them: \u201CDon\u2019t, don\u2019t, don\u2019t support this bill.\u201D, because the Government itself says that young people will lose their jobs. This bill will add to the inflexibility and the rigidities in the labour market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002254a16c76d7404902aaae1dd1e86cb1cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254a16c76d7404902aaae1dd1e86cb1cb\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to say that we are opposed to this bill and that we intend to support the amendment Mr Ryall has just given notice of. I know that titles are occasionally ruled out of order by the Chair as being frivolous, but, if the Chair were able to make such a ruling against the Government, then I regard this as one occasion when the title\u2014in this case the \u201CMinimum Wage Amendment Bill\u201D\u2014could be ruled out of order, because, clearly, it is not an appropriate title. The title that has been put forward by Mr Ryall more accurately describes the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe notion of supporting minimum wages was, I guess, illustrated by Mr Peters\u2019 speech. He set out the romantic argument for it, but it is not, in fact, logical. The reason this bill should go through\u2014[Interruption] It actually should be supported by the Greens. That is the party that has argued that there ought to be a minimum wage for students, and it keeps on making that argument. Here we have a Labour Government that says to the quarter of a million adult students in New Zealand: \u201CNo, you\u2019ve got to pay for your own education. Take out a loan if you haven\u2019t got enough. No, we don\u2019t support a minimum wage.\u201D\u2014and I agree with that position. However, the Government is suddenly turning round to 26,000 people who are getting training, and saying: \u201CBut in your case we are going to tell the employer that you must be paid a wage, even if that doesn\u2019t give an economic return to an employer.\u201D The reason that the National and ACT parties are telling the Government that this is a mistake is that we do have some knowledge of business. Sure, employers want to extend and help with training, but they are up against costs and are required to make a return on money that people have invested in their businesses. They are not there to be a charity. The Government itself admits that this bill will cost jobs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI ask members opposite, those who can remember\u2014and perhaps Mr Peters, who is supporting this bill; even in the area of education one would have this experience\u2014to think about their own adult experiences. Most people would concede that they learnt more, not at university, not at polytech, not at school, but at their first job. People\u2019s first job is crucial to their careers\u2014and it is the hardest job to get when they have no experience. That is the start people want. In the legal profession, which I am sure will not be counted in this bill, if a person wants to become a barrister, that person has to approach a Queen\u2019s Counsel, very politely, and say: \u201CPlease sir, will you take me as your pupil?\u201D [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is extremely disruptive for Government Ministers to come over to this side of the Chamber, stand behind me, and hold a long conversation as they try to get the Greens to support their legislation. A Government Minister and the chief whip are holding a loud conversation behind me while I am speaking. I regard that as totally thoughtless and disorderly, and they should be asked to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abfa167f6a0c4af6bc10c0987ac2eaae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. It is not in order for conversations to take place in the Chamber, especially in the cross benches. They muffle the sound and make it very difficult for the speaker. I ask those members who wish to carry on a conversation to please do so outside the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b7102530c8840219d5de64410592a3f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I was just telling the Committee that if one wants to be a barrister, one has to approach a Queen\u2019s Counsel and ask to be his or her pupil. Then one works like a slave for nothing. Why do people do it? They do it because the training is worth so much. No one is actually suggesting making a change in that area. However, the more valuable the training, the greater the risk to the employer. If a person is a pupil working for a barrister, he or she is a danger to shipping. One has to watch every single thing that person does, because one is responsible for their actions. The same applies to a trainee. That person has to be watched, and the idea that we are helping young people by costing them the opportunity to get a job is nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe Government itself does not actually believe this bill. It is being put forward for ideological reasons. The Greens might believe in it, and if they do, why is the Government not applying a minimum wage to students?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219a7955f0f114d508fd8309ca4daaa16\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the fundamentalist monetarist approach to that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b36a2c927b3430c8d446d2916ccbc50\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, that is the fundamental monetarist approach! Well, that is very interesting. That is why it is not doing it\u2014it is a fundamental monetarist approach. It is very interesting to hear that from the rather confused Government members. They cannot actually work out why they are doing nothing for students, but they say they are doing something for a number of trainees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8fac80d9a6940609c1acc9182e9e243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8fac80d9a6940609c1acc9182e9e243\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E It is very interesting, is it not, that here we have a Government that wants to talk about growth in the economy, wants to have investment, wants to do all the things that Governments want to do, and wants to give out money, yet here is an opportunity for employers to take people on, take on trainees, to be involved in business at the coalface, learning those skills that are so important in business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e021dd85c534d7a9494c2fa01ee1381\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: What does this member know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd1a5db71bc94d0bbd6181d5fd486d78\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: That member has probably never been an employer. He has probably never employed anybody, so how would he know? He is just a union man. He would not have a clue. He has never employed anyone, never invested, and never put his money at risk. Now he is telling young people what is best for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAt the moment, if I want to employ somebody who does not have the skills I am prepared to give that person a go. I will take people on and give them those opportunities. I will allow them to get that work ethic, learn those skills, build that expertise, and get involved at the coalface.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E But what does this bill do? This bill says no. The title actually repeals the exemption, so the bill could be called the \u201CMinimum Wage (Repeal of Exemption) Bill\u201D. This bill repeals that opportunity for young people, and it repeals the opportunity for employers who make an investment by going out there and taking on these people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis Government is anti-business, anti-growth, and anti-employer. This is just another huge compliance cost, along with the Holidays (Four Weeks Annual Leave) Amendment Bill, accident compensation levies, and occupational safety and health regulations. This is just another anti-business, anti-employer piece of legislation. What about the people involved? What about the trainees? They are the people we should be looking after. We have an opportunity to help them, and what does this Government do? It takes away that exemption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhy would I want to take the risk of giving a young person an opportunity to learn some skills, and to get some firsthand experience, when this Government is saying that young people have to be given a minimum wage? There is a risk associated with it, and part of risk management for people who are in business is to weigh up the pros and the cons. I am prepared to give someone a go; I am prepared to give someone the opportunity, but I will not be stifled, hamstrung, and shackled in terms of what I can do in the long term. That is what the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill is about, because it does away with the current exemption to make it an incentive for employers to take people on, and to allow them to have opportunities. The bill removes that exemption. It is anti-business, and anti-employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAs Tony Ryall has recommended, the bill should be known as the \u201CMinimum Wage (Repeal of Exemption) Bill\u201D. That fairly reflects, articulates, and crystallises what this bill is about. If we look at the explanatory note, we will see it states that a class of trainees will be exempt from the application of the principal Act. It goes on to state: \u201CCurrently, trainees who are required in their employment to undertake at least 60 credits of training per year \u2026 are exempt from the principal Act.\u201D That is fine. There are about 26,000 trainees out there who will be affected by this. I will tell members what will happen if we move in and say there will be a minimum wage: employers will say, \u201CI\u2019m not prepared to take the risk. I am not prepared to take these people on. I am prepared to give them a fair go at the moment, because I have that opportunity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Richard Prebble said, there is nothing better than hands-on training\u2014that is where people learn life skills. That is where they get the best training they will ever have. They will not get that from either a training institution or a tertiary institution; it is when they are out there doing what has to be done that they learn life skills. This bill takes away that opportunity from these kids. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI am concerned about the trainees\u2014I am not worried about the employers, because they will just find somebody else. I am concerned that this bill says: \u201CHey, we\u2019re not going to allow you to do this. We are going to make it difficult for you.\u201D As the Hon Tony Ryall has said, this bill should be regarded as the \u201CRepeal of the Training Exemption Bill\u201D\u2014that is the true title. There is absolutely no way that this bill will help those 26,000 trainees out there, because it is anti-business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u002290fa6523a0054aac9dcc2d605f38f827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290fa6523a0054aac9dcc2d605f38f827\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of United Future. I do not want to shock Tony Ryall, but we are not supporting this bill, and we will be supporting his amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ETraining is a very important aspect of all of our lives. Personally, I think we are always in training; if we do not continue to train we will not continue to progress. I believe it is important that even a young child should be trained in the correct manner in which to live. We did that with our own children. For example, they would get pocket money, but they had to work for it. Their mum trained them in how to make their beds, then she would give them a list of jobs for the week. Let us say their pocket money was $5; if they did their jobs they got the $5. But if their mum had had to make the bed instead of them, then their mum would take the money for making the bed, and they would miss out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWhat can often happen with those sorts of things, from an employer\u2019s perspective, is that people will then start looking for a job that has a larger amount of training than working at a favourable rate, and they will go and take that job so that they can get some form of income. Then, when it is all over, they will leave the poor employer, who will have got no benefit from it. We do not support this bill, because we believe that training is a privilege. If a person can come alongside somebody and be trained in the skills for life, the payment will always follow, after that person is trained, if he or she is a skilled worker. So United Future is not supporting this bill. We maintain that money should be paid for work, rather than for training, and we will therefore not be supporting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00221b2b5c5977bf4406b3290928c5bd3a41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b2b5c5977bf4406b3290928c5bd3a41\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002242f059c6234944bd9cdbaac5cdcba068\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242f059c6234944bd9cdbaac5cdcba068\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Like National speakers who have gone before me, I rise to oppose this bill. This is absolutely hopeless legislation. It is another form of inflexibility in the labour market that we are becoming used to on this side of the Committee. Time and time again we see inflexibility driven into the labour market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe title of this bill should not be the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill; it should be the \u201CLoss of Jobs For Some of Our Most Vulnerable Young People Bill\u201D. This will attack the 26,000 young people who rely on on-the-job training, and the goodwill of employers to take them on and give them a chance. Members of this Committee should go and ask those 26,000 people what they most want\u2014do they want another dollar or another 50c potentially tacked on to their minimum wage, do they want the opportunity to have a job, through which they can show their skills, and shine and grow into a wonderful career, or do they want to go on the dole? The Government is telling us that as a result of this legislation, some people will go on the dole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bee4e81e6cb24f329f091d46e0208c27\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b9c17790f6440038786f730b6e90990\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is in writing. Is it good for the employers of this country to have a smaller pool of people to choose from, and for them maybe to get people who have come from the dole, and who have unfortunately had that experience rather than on-the-job training? I say no. Is it good for the young people of New Zealand who are out there excitedly looking for a job, and who are prepared to put their nose to the grindstone and work hard? I say no. Is it good for the taxpayers of New Zealand who are having to fork out for the thousands of people who are on the dole under this Labour Government? There are 135,000 people on the dole already, and that number will be going up as a result of passing this bill, whose title we are discussing here tonight. That number will be going up, and it is in writing in the commentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis should not be called the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill\u2014that is a ridiculous title for this bill. It should be called the \u201CLoss of Job Opportunities For Vulnerable Young People Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMr Hughes is a young man\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a6ee74d21ca47229bb8e55cf99e8e53\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is he on a training rate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dff4dd4f8bc74afd846e3c4211849fec\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe Mr Hughes has pushed this bill through because he is scared that his rate will get dropped down, because he is the youngest member of Parliament in this House, and all of a sudden, the boss\u2014who is over in Paris at the moment\u2014has seen that young members in the European Parliament get paid less. Darren Hughes has gone and spoken to Mr Swain and various other Ministers, and said: \u201CLook, push through this bill before the boss gets back and all of a sudden my wage is down.\u201D Mr Hughes mixes with a lot of young people. He knows the value of on-the-job training. He is learning his skills and his craft, just like those 26,000 other people are across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c340807ebb434a8c8e8b26af90876a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s got his training wheels on now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b58522be3f46be93290bcff9d9bc4f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: He has his training wheels on right now, but we hear he is doing a wonderful job, and that is the kind of on-the-job feedback that comes through. He and his Government will rob young people of that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e6c679161324a4ab95b628d45392675\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: He worked for Judy Keall. He should get double the rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac9a8b0a17243d2bc49174f279fc740\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That probably says it all. This bill will rob those young people of that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E I will go back to my earlier point. The young people of New Zealand would like an opportunity to have a job. I know that when I was in commercial practice I had many people who came in and offered to work for nothing. That opportunity to work for nothing was valued far more than whatever the wage was. They did not want to talk about whether there was a minimum wage. They did not care about whether the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill was appropriately titled; they cared about the opportunity to have a job. That was the most important thing, because when they went to get another job, their future employer looked at their resume to see what their past work had been\u2014not what they had earned, not whether the minimum wage had been applied, and not whether they had got $5.85 an hour or $5.95 an hour, but what experience and opportunities they had had. This bill will rob those young people of that job opportunity. That is a disgrace. Young people are being sent the wrong message when they are told that it is better to go on the dole than to be paid a little bit less. That is how the thinking that the dole is good for this country is indoctrinated. It is not good for this country\u2014working is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022c83556a052584a5ca97eec2c1fcfe97b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c83556a052584a5ca97eec2c1fcfe97b\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022151fa392d7674ba1907646eee442fcbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022151fa392d7674ba1907646eee442fcbd\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (NZ National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is with some pleasure that I rise to oppose the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill, and particularly the title, which is so misleading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere are some things that one learns through life experience that clearly one cannot get from attending all the academic institutions in this country. If ever there was evidence of that it is there in the current Government. The reason Government members are here now in the dead of night trying to ram through legislation that would be much better titled the \u201CMinimum Wage Repeal of Training Exemption Bill\u201D, as proposed by the Hon Tony Ryall, is that they do not have that life experience. One can have all the PhDs in the world but if one does not have some kind of life experience or a PhD in life experience then one is without any knowledge at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOne of the areas where people get that knowledge\u2014and without a doubt this is so in the farming sector\u2014is through on-the-job training. I know that that comes as a surprise to most of those on the Government side, because none of them has experienced anything like that. I also know that some members of this Parliament are genuinely concerned about the exploitation of young people in the workforce, and for that reason I have some sympathy with where they want to go, but the bottom line is that what is being proposed in this legislation\u2014particularly with the title it has been given\u2014will achieve exactly the opposite of what they are trying to achieve. Even more young people will be unemployed and denied the opportunity to go out and earn a living, and to be part of a constructive and credible workforce. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EOne need look no further than the comments made recently by some major business interests in the country to find that employers will not take the risk\u2014and I know that is absolutely so in the farming industry. I appeal to members opposite and to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Paul Swain, to take a call and tell me why a farmer with an $80,000 tractor, a $20,000 feed-out wagon, and the potential for a $20,000 penalty for putting penicillin in the milk by accident, or a penalty for allowing stock to wander in a way that they should not\u2014and we have just seen a recent case of bad farming practices, and the $200,000 fine that went with it\u2014would take on an untrained young person, at the minimum wage that is likely to be prescribed by some socialist group based in Wellington. Why would people do that? What incentive is there for them to do that? Clearly, people take a lot of risk in taking someone on. At the moment, in the farming sector in particular, people take that risk: they spend the money, they spend the time in training, and in some cases they even pay for those young people to go on to further academic and practical training through various institutions in the country because they need those young people to come through. Why would they take that risk if there is a huge financial penalty in doing so? I appeal to the Minister to take a call and tell us why he thinks that to be the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe select committee was told that 26,000 young people in New Zealand would be affected by this measure. The judgment call that any Government has to make is whether those people will benefit or whether they will not. The overwhelming evidence is that they will not. So why is the Government here at this point in time proposing a bill that clearly will not have the desired outcome? Why is it that this bill is named the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill when it will clearly achieve the exact opposite of that objective? I hope the Minister will take a call and clear that up for the Committee because I know that a lot of people are curious about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EAlso, I know that a large number of young people out there need some kind of encouragement to get from where they are into meaningful employment. One of the things that encourages young people to go into employment is when people from industry approach them and say: \u201CYou look as though you are capable. We\u2019re not willing to take the risk under employment law, but if you come and work for us for nothing for a few days or for a week or so on a trial basis we will take that risk and we will give you a go. We will give you that opportunity.\u201D This legislation, and its title in particular, will stop that from happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022e38eb4f5820648038e42b1656302afbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e38eb4f5820648038e42b1656302afbf\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e7659f1a19c344049476a33eadfe9885\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000580\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000581\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000582\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Hon Tony Ryall to subclause (1) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000583\u0022\u003Eto amend subclause (1) by inserting after the words \u201CMinimum Wage\u201D, the words \u201C(Repeal of Training Exemption)\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dab9a5c8ab6345d188285caf465dbdb8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000584\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000585\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002270b75230ddf34d1c988e45c0bfd6c90b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000586\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000587\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f6dcd0674de447bda0ac82b1c46721d2\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002243eeb7827ff44074b2a54252e582a734\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243eeb7827ff44074b2a54252e582a734\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition will be opposing the commencement date in the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill. We have tabled an amendment that will defer the commencement date until after the election of the next National-led Government in 2005. With a commencement date of 30 November 2005, the next National-led Government will have an opportunity to repeal this bill. The reasons we want to defer the commencement date are set out very clearly in the regulatory impact statement that the Government itself has tabled in this Chamber. People listening on their radios tonight should know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022244055897a24409ebd8936dd31ad0e9b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows he cannot refer to radios.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022040588e8e32b4b3ca123b6e754a7f28c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is a new ruling, is it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1a9e8371a74462fb0f81746b3a71c17\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Speaker\u2019s ruling 39/1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e2ba6a0def04ee29bf40c3b776cca8b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: People who are listening tonight in the gallery will want to know that this bill proposes to remove the exemption whereby up to 26,000 young New Zealanders receive on-the-job training and, as such, get a payment that is lower than the minimum wage. The Government has advised Parliament that the proposed change will have an impact on the Government\u2019s finances, which will come from increased benefit payments as a result of job losses over time. The Government has also advised Parliament that there will be a decline in the amount of training provided by employers and that that will have an effect on training, and has further advised that that will increase compliance costs for employers and business in general. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party asks why we would want to deny young New Zealanders the opportunity to have on-the-job training, to increase the number of people on the dole, to reduce the amount of training in the economy, and to make business compliance costs higher than they already are. The National Party asks why we would do that. I think it is clear that this Government is doing it as part of its continual programme of payback to the trade union movement. There is no doubt that this legislation is union-driven, promoted by the hard left of the Labour Party. If one looks at the introductory debate, we see that the Ministers Margaret Wilson and Laila Harr\u00E9 crowed about this bill. They represent the politically correct spa-pool liberals who make up the Government, and they were the people who most promoted this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis bill is anti-business, it is anti-growth, and it is anti-training. Why would we want to support legislation that, as the Government knows, will put young people on the dole? The Government has told us that. It is on page 3 of the explanatory note. Why would we want to support legislation that will lead to a decline in the amount of training in the economy? The Government has told us that. It is on page 4 of the explanatory note, and further on on that page is the advice that this legislation will add to the compliance cost for employers. The National Party says that those are compelling arguments made by the Government not to support this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party stands very clearly on the side of young people who want to have an opportunity and the chance to get ahead. My colleague Judith Collins will be attempting to take a call to outline to the Committee what the Government will be doing. What it will be doing will be forcing a whole lot of people to stop being lower-paid trainees and to become volunteers. They will become volunteers in the workplace, and they will not get any payment, at all. They will be on the dole. They will be volunteers in the workplace, learning those skills, and they will not get paid. That is the point. They will miss the opportunity to get some compensation while they are training, because this legislation will drive significant numbers of young people into being volunteers in the workforce\u2014where they will get no payment\u2014and an increased number of people on to the unemployment benefit. What this country needs to lift its growth prospects is a National-led Government and a flexible labour market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u00226db949bc00a54c29a9794a914988a1c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226db949bc00a54c29a9794a914988a1c4\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support the commencement date as set out in the amendment. Briefly, I say with regard to some of the comment that I have heard this evening that I wonder where some people have been for the last decade\u2014particularly those people involved in the agricultural industry. There seems to be a misconception that workers out there in the dairy-farming industry, in particular, are being exploited. In actual fact, the situation is by far the opposite of that. Anybody who is prepared to get out there and handle a cup or jump on a tractor is readily wanted and, I assure the Committee, is paid far above any minimum wage, in order to be able to fill the intense demands of the dairy industry at the present time. It is the same for the meat industry and the wool industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EAgain, I come back to the fact that a balance is required, which relates to the opportunity provided by the employer and the educational opportunities and further training that the young person\u2014whether male or female\u2014gets, and the end result is a fair and equitable opportunity for those involved. Although I would hesitate to look at perhaps just one industry, the land use industry, one could also look at the hospitality industry or the supermarkets\u2014that whole area of food servicing\u2014where there is a history in earlier years of the exploitation of young people. Today that has been remedied slightly, but in the same way, a training opportunity needs to go with a fair job and a consistent and reasonable salary or wage. On behalf of New Zealand First and my colleague the Hon Brian Donnelly, who is our party spokesperson on those matters, I support the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002229f909588466401db5ba22e094c89a6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229f909588466401db5ba22e094c89a6d\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support Mr Ryall\u2019s amendment. I think it is an excellent amendment, although I do have a quibble with it, which I will raise with Mr Ryall in a moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI also want to express my disappointment\u2014but not surprise\u2014that the New Zealand First Party continues to be economically illiterate. The fact of the matter is that by supporting the paying of minimum wages to trainees, that party will limit the number of people who can get training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a37213b09a341daa5d38cea3cf53897\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52d6999baaf4b3294458e9e82827a32\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says \u201CRubbish!\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53be684a595411f9cdcdba42ed856a8\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b518eb7d62e24c15ad57770826eead18\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and so does Mr Peck, yet they are supporting a bill that states that. If they cared to read the explanatory note of the bill, which I ask Mr Peck whether he has read\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228801b8141b074563aa639e4c2c8ee5c6\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: You bet!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f8d24da2b7e412a9fc8c5aa4e385712\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: He says that he has read it. Does he not agree with the explanatory notes of the bills of the Government that he belongs to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f9a0d5e8414d279577d5ddfc501cda\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with everything in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c30407da6cd04b42bddd2c025a7af45b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: There was an incoherent answer to that question, but let me draw to the member\u2019s attention that on page 3 the explanatory note states: \u201CThe proposed change may have a small adverse impact on the Government\u2019s fiscal position. The fiscal impact would come from increased benefit payments that may occur as a result of potential job losses over time.\u201D That is there, in the Government\u2019s own legislation. One could bet that Ministers hated every word of that; that is how far they could get it watered down. I guarantee that if we could see the first draft, it would be much harder\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c81407522b74f65907b2a529380ccdd\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Much harder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222351277f3bb84232bc45595464ea3805\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Those former ministers know what I am saying. But the Ministers could not get the officials to take that comment out, because the officials know that this bill will cost jobs. I say it is a great shame that New Zealand First and the Labour Party back bench are economically illiterate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI have a comment and a quibble to make to Mr Ryall, who wants to move the commencement date from November 2003 to November 2005. My quibble is twofold. First, 2005 is far too soon. But Mr Ryall then says that November 2005 will be after the election of a National Government. The second part of my quibble, then, is why is he so pessimistic? This is a minority Labour Government. It cannot even handle the power crisis, and it has the economy going down the gurgler. I am coming to the commencement date; it is a question of whether that date could be safely made November 2004. This is a minority Government. It is supported by the Greens, but at some point they will take a stand over genetic modification, and it is also supported by the United Future party, but at some point the members of that party will look at the polls and say that they are going down the gurgler with that lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E No MMP Government has lasted for the whole full term. New Zealand First will not save the Government. The member could take a risk and make the commencement date November 2004. I think the Government will last about another year. But when we have a second winter power crisis and people realise that the Government says we have market prices, but that the Government actually owns 70 percent of the generators\u2014we do not have enough generators\u2014and owns all of the grid, and that this is a Government crisis, we could see this Government fall. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say while ACT will vote for the National Party\u2019s amendment, it is a bit on the pessimistic side. The National Party should be a bit more optimistic. We should be getting ready for the possibility of an early election. I see signs of this Government falling. One of the reasons for that is this bill itself. The reason the Government will fall is that it is economically illiterate. This Government has no idea whether it has done well economically. It has benefited from things it had no control of, and now that the economy is going sour on it, the Government has no idea what to do about that. If it has, then let us hear one idea in terms of what it will do about the power crisis. We have not heard one idea. We heard the Government say on the Holmes show that we should wait for some weeks for it to give us an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207bb7dbf53464e3b9969606a983f0521\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re in the dark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3aa0e7ee61a4da8936b4bd766d274ea\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Government is in the dark. The Government itself acknowledges that by passing this bill, it will deprive young people of training. November of this year is far too soon to introduce such a harsh measure, and November 2005 is still too soon. We will support the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226cbc62b352fe497fb8ac886371aa0860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cbc62b352fe497fb8ac886371aa0860\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E This is an interesting commencement date. When we read the bill we see that it was to have come into effect on 30 November 2001. The points that have been made this evening have shown that the Government is anti-business. It is anti-investment, and it has no idea of what it is to run a business. In fact, 85 percent of all businesses in New Zealand are small businesses, employing less than five people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhen an employer takes somebody on, at the end of the day there has to be a reward. I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. A member on the Government side of the Chamber is using a cellphone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022661d4f4ac2514d92aa0514ea000a836e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The use of cellphones in the Chamber is not permitted. I have been assured that the cellphone is not being used in the Chamber. The word of all members here is accepted unreservedly; their word is their bond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f9f5a218494a41bbf6e347412427a4\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The person whom you are referring to is not the person I was referring to. The person\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218f443f3f68043a2acff574521cdcaea\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Stop wasting time!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270136684c885422d82ef9c605f0087c6\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that we are wasting time. It is a very important precedent that members do not use cellphones in the Chamber. I have brought that to the attention of the Chairman. If the member would like to stand and apologise, then I will accept that. It is not me who is wasting time; it is the member who has been using the cellphone who is wasting time. I have asked for a ruling, and have suggested that an easy way out is for the member who was on the cellphone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fd41a1e6ec243c58470404c8ce1d201\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: How about naming the member? It will make things a lot easier for everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fb32a4318bc45fc8431fbf51e108861\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: It was Steve Chadwick, who is sitting in the front row. If she would like to stand and apologise for using the cellphone, we can then get on with this very important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200fe2ba8a1704c0ab9b9e03694023275\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member used a cellphone in the Chamber, that is unacceptable. The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise if that was the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e1a9cd6205e4a7396be0c858db0bddf\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b09511515574eaea5fb588055e498d3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The point I was making was that if I am prepared to employ somebody\u2014and it will cost me money to employ that person\u2014then there has to be a return. I would expect that the return that I will get from that person\u2019s contribution to my business is that he or she has to pay his or her way. That is just the basis of employing people. This Government expects that every time I want to employ people, they will think I will exploit them. I have never paid minimum wages to the staff whom I have employed over the years. I have always paid them more than the minimum, because they have been worth more than that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAt the moment people will take staff on and give them a go, but they expect a return on that investment\u2014that is, if they are employing people for whatever the figure is per hour, those people will need to contribute. Employers are prepared to put in the time and the training. However, under this bill that initiative will be taken away. There are young people who are prepared to go and knock on doors, and to ask employers for a job. Employers have said they are prepared to give them a go, because they have shown some initiative. This bill states that people cannot do that, because if they do they will be exploited. But if employers want to have people working for them and to get the best return from them, they will look after their staff. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThis bill takes that away. The tenure of this bill simply states to young people who are out there looking for a job that if they go when there is no protection for them through minimum wages, when employers have a training budget, and put effort in and to spend time with them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccac39aa87d64ec6b489c3138b77a2b8\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: This member hasn\u2019t mentioned the commencement date once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228cee537ae4c43feb2e4ab909117f7c3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I mentioned the commencement date right at the beginning of my speech. If the member did not interrupt so often, she would actually hear what I was saying. The member does not understand the basis of business. That is the trouble with this Government: it has no idea what makes the world go round. Government members have never been in business themselves, they have never invested a dollar, and they have no idea\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcbe294a0ff9433da96bf1084eec5331\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s totally incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e979ecb2a3a4bfeb34b9f8ab10f9679\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: That member has never employed anyone. Government members have absolutely no idea of the costs\u2014of what is involved in employing staff. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f7d99cd1634cac812b0f6173d79ddd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member. I refer members on my right to Speakers\u2019 ruling 51/5. If those members want to make a speech, they can take the call next time and do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c577cf5d6494c8c91a647ddcf4f6629\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I would appreciate them taking a call. I would like the Minister to take a call, as well. It seems to me that every time people want to go for a job they need protection, because otherwise the view of this Government and its members is that every time people go for a job, they will be exploited. That is what the bill states. The Government does not allow for the initiative of young people seeking to have a go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThat is why it is so very important that the commencement date, as the Hon Tony Ryall has mentioned, should be after the next election. That will allow those trainees who are out there now to appreciate and be able to show exactly what is involved in obtaining a job, and to show how the current system works. What is happening today is that employers are not prepared to take anybody on, because it will become too difficult. We have the Holidays Act, the 4 weeks\u2019 holiday amendment bill, paid parental leave, and the Resource Management Act. People will say they are not prepared to take on a young person. They will ask why they should carry all the risk all the time. Employers will contract work out. There is huge demand out there now, and people are saying they will not give young people a chance by taking them on. Employers are saying they are not prepared to train young people, because once they have taken them on they will have to meet these compliance costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00222452f249c8e3467c9c8fe163b3f37e80\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222452f249c8e3467c9c8fe163b3f37e80\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002256a33c87b7e0476999d049ea4e3e380f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256a33c87b7e0476999d049ea4e3e380f\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E The commencement date of 2001 in this bill has already passed. That is just another example of a date that is completely out of date and a bill that is completely out of date. As my colleague Mr Lindsay Tisch has said, not all employers are exploiters. In fact, one would hardly ever find an employer who is an exploiter these days; the situation is quite the opposite of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things with this bill is the date, and I would like to speak now to the amendment that the Hon Tony Ryall has put up. I disagree with him, because I think we will just give this legislation another few months after we win the next election on 30 November 2005. I disagree with a commencement date in November 2005. I have already checked this with my colleague the Hon Tony Ryall, and he is happy with my suggestion that we move the commencement date to 1 April 2006. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe reason for that is that we will have so much legislation to repeal. I do take Richard Prebble\u2019s point about that. We have to accept, Richard, that we will have to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222168f95088c14ca7b721cd5558ea62ae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must not refer to a person by his or her Christian name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b0bfab5f9b740e9b2e0c3cb25879bb6\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We will have so much legislation to repeal that I think the commencement of this legislation will have to wait until 1 April 2006. Now why would we want to do that? For a start, as has been pointed out, we have the official record that states that the costs will be too high and there will be a decline in the amount of training provided by employers. We will have to tell employees who need training that they might not have a job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is very interesting, on looking at a bill like this, to see just how much consultation has taken place. Maybe more time is needed for consultation. The consultation has been with the Ministry of Economic Development, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Pacific Island Affairs, the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs, the Ministry of Youth Affairs, Skill New Zealand, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, and Treasury. Well, I do not think any of those agencies are employers. Not one of those agencies has ever mortgaged its house, put its house on the line to go and set up a business\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd478a71c6084431bb834dc2d91c33db\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: Gone broke!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d45e99ba37d40768cf7e0910eb3bfa3\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is true that not one of them has ever done that. I raise a point of order, Mr Chairman. My understanding is that a running commentary of interjections is disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bb3c617125d46e69386198534916d2f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I refer members to Speaker\u2019s ruling 51/5(3). I have already referred the Government member on my right to it. I now refer the member to Standing Order 85. That member has her first yellow card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa87ef12c46f40cea80c5d276df5639a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: So we have a situation where there has been insufficient consultation. Not one of the agencies consulted with has ever been, or actually is, an employer. They are all Government agencies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e7b2d93f5c6499e8b2b727bf9f5e69a\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: And councils!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec7bb55f2c1143f0bcb3841eca68b47d\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member on the Government side of the Chamber is continuing with the objections, obviously contrary to your advice. I think that is disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4cb3731f6054edd8719d839c31a6b1f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member was doing that, the member will stand, withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cf1c7b8ecbd4a31944594cea700ecfe\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b784deae81641109bc52ebc43db141f\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: It was not that member, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022175960605db94dd2b6b45a4e120796e7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6723460e52b4e45bdfdeb814d902e59\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221df6d4229c1c46fb8efa97df445d87d8\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f6ed3612211470b8c19fdcda4ad1d8c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Would Mr Peck please be seated. Jill Pettis\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a01b4c7ff9e42fea2089cad4c3bd33b\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I did stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228551c245cee74b56939a693f25f387c9\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: So there really has not been enough time for any consultation with employers. I would like to know whether anyone has actually asked for the views of any of the freezing works or of any of the lawyers, who, as Richard Prebble has very, very carefully advised, take on a lot of people to receive training in their offices. Who has actually asked anybody\u2014anyone who actually employs people\u2014for a bit of consultation? In fact, no one has even consulted with the youth whom we are talking about\u2014the people actually receiving the training. That is one of the points. The date that we are talking about in the bill will not be possible because it has already passed, for a start. Secondly, I say there has not been enough consultation with anyone whose job is probably on the line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the points I would like to raise\u2014and I would like to hear from the Minister on this\u2014is whether the Minister has considered the effect of this legislation on volunteers. One of the things that will happen is that a prospective employee will be told the employer does not want him or her as an employee because the employer cannot afford to pay the employee while he or she is training with the employer, but that he or she will be taken on as a volunteer. And that is the point: this bill does not protect volunteers. The people who are currently receiving some money while they are training with an employer will turn into volunteers\u2014unpaid workers who will be on the dole or on some sort of training allowance. That is what will happen. The very people who have had jobs, even if they were not very well paid, but who have done that because they were being trained, will have to lose those jobs, become volunteers, and add to the dole list. In fact, any smart employer and any smart person wanting to be trained will get around this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022219c87ba79b849b99166f93714ec9eb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022219c87ba79b849b99166f93714ec9eb0\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (NZ National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the commencement date of this bill, and I think it is probably time that somebody pointed out to the Committee that despite the fact that the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, can have a view on major international events, I do not think she has the ability yet to put in place legislation\u2014which we are debating in the Committee here today on 29 April\u2014that has a commencement date of 30 November 2001. I see there is a Supplementary Order Paper, and I think that that is absolutely why the public of New Zealand need to know what it is that they have governing this country at the moment. The commencement date of this bill has well and truly passed, and we have Supplementary Order Paper 245 to amend that date to a time that, hopefully, the Government might be able to achieve. That Supplementary Order Paper states \u201Cthe day after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent\u201D, which could be anywhere in the never-never\u2014who knows? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EMy colleague has put a date on this legislation of 2005, and another member has amended that to 2006. I think that is sensible, because at least people will have some indication of when this bill might become law, even though most people will be opposing it. They will at least have some idea of when it might come into law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBut this bill demonstrates to the Committee today that we have a Government that introduces great socialist ideas, and goes out and puts up a kite to find out what the public polls are saying. During the knowledge wave conference in Auckland, Labour members sampled the business sector to see what it was saying. They found out that the business sector was not very happy with where the Government was going, so they buried this legislation somewhere on the Order Paper and forgot about it. Then, in the middle of the night when they did not think anybody would be taking any notice\u2014and certainly nobody is listening on the crystal sets in Taranaki\u00A0\u00A0King Country, or on the cowshed communication systems, at the moment\u2014they try to rush this bill through with a commencement date of 2001, and with Supplementary Order Paper 245 to amend that to the never-never\u2014until it receives the royal assent. This is legislation that, politically, the Minister in the chair knows will sink like a lead balloon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EWe have here a Government that goes out to the business sector and pretends to be friendly, to know what people want, and to know what will generate growth in the economy. It talks the talk, but comes back to the Parliament here and returns to its true, natural, socialist roots, which we have all known it would eventually do. We have all known the Government would have to do that; it could not keep up the facade for very long. Eventually the Government would have to come home to its roots; that is what always happens. Here we have a bill with a commencement date of 30 November 2001, which is long gone, and with a Supplementary Order Paper to state that the bill will come into force when it receives the royal assent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe National Opposition opposes this bill, and is recommending amendments. We are recommending amendments to the commencement date. The Hon Tony Ryall has put forward an amendment that will change that date from 30 November 2001\u2014and I am sure the Minister will be happy with that, because even the honourable Minister will have trouble getting this legislation in place by 2001\u2014to 30 November 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E The reason for that is very obvious to those who are taking an interest in this bill tonight and who are listening in to this debate on various mechanisms. It is because that date will be after the next election, and there will be a change of Government. Most of those people know that the new Government will repeal this legislation. There will be a flood of repeals, as has been mentioned before. But so be it; that is what happens. There will be a new Government, this silly legislation will be kicked into touch, and the new Government will be able to bring in sensible legislation that will allow the 26,000 young people whom we are speaking of here\u2014that is quite a substantial figure\u2014to go through what has been a traditional pathway to a successful career, that is, hands-on, workforce training.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022e78aa8899ed6494384f50434ff8d0c5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e78aa8899ed6494384f50434ff8d0c5c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227211ceac0d0747b888589b7d338e6bef\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000666\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000667\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000668\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 245 in the name of the Hon Margaret Wilson to clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223c0e4ea5a23d47eb8229cc955442175e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000669\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000670\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5e3e7302e4f4a4d9a1d93eea8f3c65a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5e3e7302e4f4a4d9a1d93eea8f3c65a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendments in the names of the Hon Tony Ryall, and of Judith Collins and Shane Ardern to clause 2 are out of order, as they are inconsistent with the previous decision just taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003Eto add the following subclause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E(2)\tNotwithstanding any order made under subsection (1), no minimum rates of wages will apply to classes of workers who are employed under contracts of service under which they are required to undergo training, instruction, or examination for the purpose of becoming qualified for the occupation to which their contract of service relates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dacd989750854aa09a5482e3fa08511b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party votewas called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000675\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000676\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d5c4df24d71745a89998619c65c7bb29\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 as amended by Supplementary Order Paper 245 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 84\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000677\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000678\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002251e7261180af44c1a14f34107d98b983\u0022\u003EClause 3  Prescription of minimum wages\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f774d43aea2c40c58aed23c2ec9fa16d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f774d43aea2c40c58aed23c2ec9fa16d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I want to state very clearly that the National Party in Opposition is strongly opposed to clause 3 and to this bill. Clause 3 is the operative feature of the bill, which will enable the Government to overrule employment and training contracts entered into by 26,000 young people and enforce a new minimum wage on those undertaking training. The National Party is opposed to that, and we base our case on other documents than the explanatory notes to this bill. The test for this bill is what will it do to training in New Zealand, what will it do for opportunities for young New Zealanders, and what will it do to business compliance costs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ELet us check each of those three features off, using the advice that the Government itself has provided to Parliament. The Government has told us that this bill will cost jobs. It has advised us that there will be an increase in benefit payments as young people currently in training go on the dole. It has mentioned that itself in its own explanatory note, so it has failed that test\u2014this bill will cost jobs and put kids on the dole. The next issue is what the bill does for business compliance costs. The Government itself says there will be increases in ongoing compliance costs as a result of this legislation, so it fails that section as well. The third test is what the bill will do to the amount of training provided by employers in the New Zealand economy, and the advice here is that there will be a reduction in the overall level of employment-based training in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThree strikes\u2014this bill should be out! It should be out because it will cost young New Zealanders their jobs; it is anti-business, anti-training, and anti the growth this country needs. My colleague Mr Shane Ardern, the MP for Taranaki-King Country, and I have moved amendments that will limit the power provided by clause 3 to allow this Government to set minimum wages and remove the trainee exemption for young people. I am asking the other parties in this Chamber to consider supporting those amendments, because we should be able to neuter the part of the bill that will cause the problem\u2014that will cost young people their training opportunities and add business compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe problem with this Government is that it does not realise that to get a high-performing, growing economy in this country, we have to back the productive sector. We have to back the people who are creating the jobs and the wealth this country needs. The one thing we do not need to do to those people is tie them up with added bureaucracy, complexity, and inflexible labour laws and training rules\u2014and that is what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party in Opposition wants to be very clear with the Government: we will oppose this bill vociferously through its continuing stages in the House, and it will be repealed with the change of Government. When we get rid of this two-term, left-wing, minority Labour Government and have a Government that is prepared to back the productive sector and have pride in, and support, the New Zealand business community, this bill will go. We know from the Government\u2019s own advice\u2014and I notice the junior Minister from the Hutt Valley taking notes of this\u2014that this bill will cost jobs. It will put people on the dole, and it will add to compliance costs. A lot of the people affected will be M\u0101ori, and that will open the gaps, not close them. Nanaia Mahuta should take a call to tell us why M\u0101ori should support other M\u0101ori losing their training opportunities. They should not do it, and that is why we urge them not to support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a8be0447c16a4815a09db30d1790971e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a8be0447c16a4815a09db30d1790971e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Associate Minister for Economic Development):\u003C/span\u003E Methinks the Opposition doth protest too much. Basically, it is the old whinge, whine, grizzle, and groan. What happened when the Government adjusted the adult minimum wage? We heard that it would be the end of civilisation as we know it, and that dole queues would increase. What actually happened? Unemployment went down. Then the Government adjusted the youth minimum wage. Again, we heard that it would mean the end of civilisation, and increase the dole queues. What happened? Again the dole queues went down\u2014to their lowest level in decades. The reason was that a progressive Government was working in partnership with business to ensure that people\u2019s potential was realised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis bill says that those aged between 16 and 17 who are doing more than 60 credits or more for a recognised training programme will be able to receive the official youth minimum rate, which stands at $6.80 per hour. Those members on the other side of the Chamber are saying that the 16 or 17-year-old who goes into training and does 60 credits should get less than the person who is going out and doing an ordinary old job. That argument is totally fatuous and anti-training. Those members are anti-growth and anti-business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis bill will lead to the improvement of skills training in this country, which is what we need. Those members opposite abolished the apprenticeships system. The single biggest thing this Government has done for the Labour market is to reintroduce the apprenticeship system, whereas the previous National Government abolished apprenticeships. This bill will lead to important advantages in training. We have heard it all before from the Opposition\u2014the crocodile tears, the whingeing, the whining, the wailing about the increase in the dole queues. What we have seen is the reverse. This is an example of a good Government doing another good thing for the progress and development of the New Zealand economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00222e9688ae0ee348349ecc139db353ecd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e9688ae0ee348349ecc139db353ecd5\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I must take issue with one of the comments the Minister made about how this Government has created a new apprenticeship system. As the Minister well knows, the training and qualifications of people under the Modern Apprenticeships scheme are exactly the same as under the Industry Training Act. There is no difference whatsoever. Nevertheless, that is not what I am here to talk about. I came down to the Chamber to take a call, because having listened to some of the speeches made in the debate on the first two clauses, it is pretty obvious that people are not very clear what this bill actually does. In fact, prior to this legislation there was an exemption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ERichard Prebble claims that New Zealand First is economically illiterate. The theory he espouses has already been tried in 19th century Europe, Britain, and elsewhere. The effects were clearly chronicled by Charles Dickens, Benjamin Disraeli, Elizabeth Gaskell, and all of those sorts of people. Every responsible Government should set minimum standards against the exploitation of workers, and National recognises that. The National Government set a minimum wage, and had it all through the 1990s. However, there was a loophole that affected people on training agreements. I am not talking about training such as Mr Tisch provided for his workers, but about formal training agreements under industry training organisations. Under those agreements, there was no minimum wage, but the record shows that most employers did not exploit their workers under those circumstances. They paid them minimum wages, or even more. But a small proportion of employers did exploit their workers, and was no protection for them in that circumstance. This bill provides that protection. It is not for 16 and 17-year-olds; it is for all people who are in training agreements and aiming for 60 or more credits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI see Jill Pettis making funny gesticulations across the Chamber. It is probably better that she uses sign language than yells out, so I am quite happy for her to do that. The point is that this bill clearly recognises that there is a cost to employers in allowing people off for that training. They are therefore not required to pay the minimum wage they would pay to an adult. They are required to pay a lesser minimum wage in recognition of the fact that there is a training component in the employment they offer. However, there is at least a minimum rate to ensure that workers are not exploited. A small number of employers had been doing that in the absence of any mechanism to ensure that it did not happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b4dcf09e2784875aeaf4bd8e1c96759\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Name one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f48b08c0bcd4dce881ddace36924fc2\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: There was plenty of information about it, but once again I say that it was the exception rather than the rule. New Zealand First agrees with this measure, because it at least provides minimum protection for those who are caught in that loophole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002273f6aac0661148299c03c756bfcbb89e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273f6aac0661148299c03c756bfcbb89e\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party\u2014partly to respond to the remarks just made by Brian Donnelly of New Zealand First, but also to say that ACT will vote to support the Hon Tony Ryall\u2019s amendments. I think the case he has made against this bill is a very good one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMy colleague from New Zealand First said I had accused his party of being economically illiterate. He then cited two sources to support his economic arguments. The first was Charles Dickens. I hate to be the first to break it to the member, but Charles Dickens was a novelist, and Oliver Twist is not a true story.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719577ce0eb84871809b450343129ee4\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Isn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c8ea741313e40f1b64c1065578c80a9\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: No! Shock, horror!\u2014it is not a true story. The member\u2019s next source as an economist was Benjamin Disraeli. I hate to break this to him as well, but Benjamin Disraeli was a Tory, and he never ever voted for a minimum wage bill. It just shows how much difficulty we have when New Zealand First has as economists a novelist and a Tory Prime Minister. I say to the member that the evidence is overwhelming, and that a great deal of research has been done on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI heard the Minister imply that the fall in unemployment numbers was because his Government had lifted the minimum wage. If Government members opposite really think that, why do they not lift it further? If they really think that lifting the minimum wage has resulted in more employment, why are they stopping at the level they are? Even the Minister in the chair, Mr Swain, does not believe that. When he reads his own bill\u2014and presumably he has not put a false document in front of us\u2014he knows that his own officials have said that the effect of this bill will be to destroy jobs and training opportunities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI also make this point to the member: yes, we can say that dole numbers have fallen, but if we then look at the total number of able-bodied adults on benefits, we find that that figure is going up. We have disguised unemployment occurring under a Labour Government. The Minister shakes his head. It is a great shame that Ministers do not know that, and have to rely on the ACT party to tell them. If we look at the sickness beneficiary figures, I would have to say to the Minister that the severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars) has already reached New Zealand. Alternatively, we need another explanation of why people are becoming more and more ill under a Labour Government. Of course it is disguised unemployment! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI want to point out to members opposite that clause 3 is a measure of a centrally planned economy. It states: \u201CThe Governor-General may, by Order in Council, prescribe the minimum rates of wages payable \u2026\u201D, and then follows a series of classes. That is a centrally controlled economy. We are having a group of Ministers sitting in the Beehive and deciding how much money people will be paid. That is the measure that this Government is putting forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen we have New Zealand First members saying to us that a small number of employers are exploiting their workers. Well, we have free speech. I have asked Mr Donnelly to get up and name these scoundrels. Members opposite should let us know who they are. No, they are not prepared to do that, because they have not found any. They are making it up because it sounds a good thing to say: \u201COh, most employers are good, but there are some scoundrels.\u201D Well, who are they? They are very odd scoundrels, are they not? According to this bill, they are actually providing young people with training opportunities, and yet some members say they are exploiting young people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIf we are going to pay a wage to people who are training, then why is the Government not extending that payment to university and polytechnic students? Why are Government members not saying that those students are being exploited? They are not getting paid. Why is the Government applying a double standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002259377358e6f146a89bae9d301955e424\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259377358e6f146a89bae9d301955e424\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party to oppose this bill, in particular clause 3. This bill makes a mockery of the saying \u201Cgood things come in small packages.\u201D, because it contains less than 200 words, yet all of them are bad. The bill is anti-business, anti-growth, and not good for New Zealand. Mr Swain, the Minister who was in the chair earlier, took a call. He was as misguided as the very bill itself. The Minister told the House that the bill would lead to an increase in employment and training. That is what he told us. He was on his feet\u2014the only time he has been in this entire debate\u2014and he proclaimed to the House that the bill would lead to an increase in employment and training. I have this message for the Minister. He should read the advice his Government had from his own officials, because that advice does not say that the bill will lead to an increase in employment and training. It does not say that it will build on the 26,500 young people in New Zealand who will be affected by this bill. It does not say that it will add to making this a more employer and employee-friendly market. It says there will be a fiscal cost to this legislation, and the Government will have to pay out more on the dole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217de028a798b413bba2eec28b671bfc7\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220904b354239b4f0ba3a88b0daec25f21\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is what the legislation says. The Minister should read it. It says exactly that in the explanatory note\u2014that the fiscal position of the Government will deteriorate as a result of passing this bill. The Ministers are reading it for the first time. The explanatory note states: \u201CThe proposed change may have a small adverse impact on the Government\u2019s fiscal position. The fiscal impact would come from increased benefit payments \u2026\u201D. That is not what the Minister told us when he took a call. The Minister\u2014the former Minister of Commerce\u2014told us\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee5576f11a94f9aa85651afd5ceaad7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Junior Minister from the Hutt Valley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022894e9c2feb52410cb33f9e975916ef83\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201Cjunior Minister from the Hutt Valley\u201D told us that this bill would lead to an increase in employment and training. That is just not right. That is not what the officials have told the Minister. That is not what the officials are telling us in their own document in the Chamber tonight. The Minister told us that when they put a minimum adult rate into the provision, that somehow managed to help the economy. I hate to break it to the Minister, but I will tell him what has made the economy stronger over the last 3 or 4 years. It has not been the minimum adult wage, and it will not be the minimum wages inflicted on employers across the country because of this bill. It is for three reasons: the lower Kiwi dollar, higher global commodity prices, and good weather down on the farm. If the Government has not actually noticed, a number of those factors have reversed, and\u2014guess what\u2014the Minister of Finance is going around the country telling people that the picture is bleak going forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022423b8eb2ac14409f8553e69cf785d7ef\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: He has no idea how to fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7559e0da4894d07a028634698551a3c\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: He has no idea what to do about it. He did not even want to pass the Minimum Wage Amendment Bill, because if members have a look at the commencement date, they will see that it was 2001. The bill is 200 words, and we have had to wait 2 years past the commencement date to even get it somewhere near the House. That is how good for New Zealand businesses it is! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that cannot define when our economy will go back into the top half of the OECD. It cannot tell us, even though it told us for a while that it would be in the next decade. But it has reneged on that little promise. It cannot define when our country will be back up there at a civilised standard for all New Zealanders. The Government cannot define that, but it can define a minimum wage because it is so misguided in its economic policy that it thinks this bill will somehow take it to the land of milk and honey. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWell, this is not the future for the young people of New Zealand who rely on a vibrant economy and a flexible labour market. Relying on this Government to provide a labour market that will give them opportunities are 26,500 young New Zealanders\u2014much to their peril. As a result of this bill they are losers, because by this Government\u2019s own advice from its officials some of those people will lose their jobs. If we go around and ask them what they would rather have\u2014the job opportunity at any rate and the opportunity to grow a career and show their skills and merit, or the opportunity to be guaranteed to earn $6.80 an hour\u2014I think that they will take the opportunity to work, over the opportunity to earn $6.80, any day. If we look at the legislation at clause 3, and at what it is telling the Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022e974f89576c74862ab39cde7871a3b82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e974f89576c74862ab39cde7871a3b82\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002227bf0fe4e57641f989d857bc392f1a62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227bf0fe4e57641f989d857bc392f1a62\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that the Government has not decided to take a call on such important legislation. Members know that it is businesses that create jobs. It is businesses that create wealth, and growth in the economy. That is where employment comes from. I would have thought that this Government\u2014which says it is business-friendly but in fact is anti-business, anti-employer, and anti-anything that we actually get growth from\u2014would have stood up in support of this legislation. As my colleagues have said tonight, this bill will allow, by Order in Council, a change to the minimum wage conditions of employees. That is what it says. The explanatory note goes further to state\u2014and this is the point that John Key and Tony Ryall have made, and I want to read it out because the Minister when in the chair seemed to refute the fact that it would happen\u2014\u201CThe proposed change may have a small adverse impact on the Government\u2019s fiscal position\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4eed0f51e0a4f658573d524b59ce872\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CMay\u201D!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277702e2dcd4f4290a790b30159d5d92d\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: This is what it says; I am reading it word for word. The member cannot say \u201CNo.\u201D I am reading what it says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267375487a91f4befbf2b7f979e1d0651\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: It says \u201Cmay\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf8c02882f14b93b4797ce4f0cd929a\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the Minister I am reading what the officials have got here. It then goes on to say\u2014and members should take note of this because this is important; I have underlined it in my notes because that is how important it is\u2014\u201CThe fiscal impact would come from increased benefit payments that may occur as a result of potential job losses over time. It is, therefore, unclear what the overall fiscal impact would be.\u201D Simply, what this bill will do is move people away from training opportunities and they will go on to unemployment queues\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8a81ab0c0f448cb193784ac5e6bbf8\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Scrap heaps!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c24ccd690d354fcf8798ed2826a82a22\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on to scrap heaps. They will be left. There is no place for initiative. We have young people out there who are prepared to have a go. They are prepared to knock on the doors, and employers are prepared to give them a go. They will say \u201CYes\u2014\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a059b612112c4a64af5f61d2df4962c1\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve done it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166ff53609a445349191a44b34b08fa1\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: They have done it. I have done it myself. I have been prepared to give people a go. At the end of the day, though, there must be a cost benefit to this, so I am prepared to give people a go, just as are hundreds of other employers around the country. There are 250,000 small business employers out there employing fewer than 5 people. That is where the market is. They are prepared to give young people a go. But the important thing is that if I am going to take somebody on, there has to be a return. I am making an investment in those people. I am prepared to put them through a training course. For example, if I am a retailer, I may put them on a Kiwi Host course so that they understand what customer service is about in the business. I am prepared to give them those opportunities; at the same time, I know that that investment in their future will pay off, and I will be able to recoup that, because they will be able to add value to the business and make my business grow. Unfortunately, this bill does not do that at all. It is anti those opportunities to take on people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWho would want to take on staff in this current environment? I have mentioned before in previous debates that with compliance costs that businesses are having to face today, there is no incentive. We are now seeing so many businesses that are retrenching. Business confidence in the latest surveys is at a 15-year low. Look at what was on television tonight with power prices. Goodness gracious, who wants to be in business when we have a Government that does not understand the basis of doing business, does not understand where the wealth comes from, where the growth comes from, and at the same time it wants to bring in those minimum conditions that are anti-business, anti-employers, and anti - young people? The worst part is that young people are affected by this legislation. It is those 26,000 young people who are looking to us for an opportunity to give them a start. Those are the ones that will be on the scrap heap. Those are the ones that we should be nurturing and looking after, because they are the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe bill states\u2014and the Minister disagreed with that\u2014that it will increase benefit payments, and the fiscal impact will come from increased benefit payments. If that means more people will go on a benefit, then there is something radically wrong with legislation that allows that to happen to our young folk. National will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc16af44c07c4955ba7a409280465cc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc16af44c07c4955ba7a409280465cc5\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000724\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9, United Future 8, Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000725\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000726\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Shane Ardern to clause 3 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000727\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 4(1) by omitting the words after the word \u201Cpayable\u201D, and substituting the words \u201Cto workers defined in order of reference to the age of workers excluding those undergoing training or instruction\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022469952c7e99e45fb80e9c9a7ab6a69b4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000728\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000729\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000730\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000731\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 4(1) by omitting paragraph (b). \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222764151860ef420f87ad05241f874692\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000732\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000733\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f08a8810e0cb4b2a93bafb4ac51b6296\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000734\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9, Progressive 2.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000735\u0022\u003ENational 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000736\u0022\u003EClause 4  Workers to whom Act does not apply\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225db7b32d900342b7b4010c807b7fbad2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225db7b32d900342b7b4010c807b7fbad2\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition is strongly opposed to the proposals in clause 4, as we are opposed to this bill in general. The Minimum Wage Amendment Bill will remove the exemption that young people on training have from the youth minimum wage. The reason that they are exempted is that part of their remuneration is the training they are receiving from their employers. The Government\u2019s own advisers, and in turn the Government itself, have advised the Parliament, through the explanatory note to the bill, that there will be an impact on the Government\u2019s finances as a result of this bill by dint of the fact that a number of young people will lose their jobs and move on to the unemployment benefit. The Government has further advised that the amount of training that will be provided by employers in the economy will reduce, and we have been advised further that there will be added compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EClause 4 removes those previous categories of workers to whom the Act did not apply. In the past the minimum wage never applied to apprentices who were employed under the Apprenticeship Act. It never applied to people who were being employed as apprentices under the Maori Housing Amendment Act, under the Railways Corporation, the Defence Act, the Post Office, or the State services, nor to anybody else who was under a contract for training instruction or examination, or to the inmates of any charitable institution. With this bill we are removing all those exemptions. The National Party says that this will cost young people their jobs. We know that about 26,000 young New Zealanders are affected by those agreements, and the concern the National Party Opposition has is that not only will we cost a number of young people their jobs, we will also deny the opportunity for more young people to enter into those sorts of training contracts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E We think this is symptomatic of the fact that this is a Government that does not understand business and does not appreciate the pressures on those running business; nor does it appreciate what drives job growth in the economy. What drives job growth in the economy is flexible labour markets and strong consumer demand, lower interest rates, and lower taxes. Those are the prescriptions that the economic recovery that we saw in the country in the early 2000s has been based on. It has been based on sound economic policies that were put in place by the previous Government, and this Government has to realise that bit by bit it has been unpicking the formula that has been delivering the goods for this economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI say to this Government that there is always a time lag with economic policy and legislation, and the costs of the decisions that this Government has made, tying up the labour market with added flexibility, and setting much higher minimum wages than is necessary, will be visited upon the economy over the next 3 or 4 years. There is always a time lag, and the costs will be visited upon the economy in the next 3 or 4 years. It will be the responsibility of the incoming National Government to tidy up the mess that this Government is giving New Zealand by simply hamstringing the New Zealand economy, the producers, the people whom we rely on to generate wealth in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis Government is undermining every opportunity for that, and it is undermining the opportunity for young people to get jobs. We know that that is the truth, because the Government has told us that in its own explanatory note on the bill, and that is why the National Party has strongly opposed this bill from day one. We know that it will cost jobs. A number of those 26,000 young New Zealanders will lose their jobs as a result of this bill, and we know that because the Government has told us. The Government has told us that some of those 26,000 young New Zealanders will lose their jobs and go on the dole. This Government has told us that more young people will lose that opportunity \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7d375faf63845ccbff0a6e7c2a1c3d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7d375faf63845ccbff0a6e7c2a1c3d9\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of New Zealand First I rise to support clause 4. Firstly, it is consistent with the thrust and intention of the other clauses in the bill. Secondly, as one who has recently come from employment, and recently been involved in a number of both industry training organisations and other training opportunities, I say to my colleagues on my right that this is not the opportunity, this is not the right way to conduct the economic debates that they intend to conduct or are conducting. This is a sane, sensible, equitable way of giving balance both to the employer and to the employee, in the training sense. We support this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002207bab8a6114046fbb2f6d9eb4b5d737b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207bab8a6114046fbb2f6d9eb4b5d737b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I say to Mr Peters as kindly as I can that both he and Mr Donnelly have come out of the education sector. They make the mistake of thinking that because they have been in educational training organisations they therefore know the situation that exists with regard to employers. I say to Mr Peters that the Government is making a very grave mistake in picking on 26,000 out of the 250,000-odd people who are in training, and saying that because this particular group is employed in the private sector, they are going to have their wages fixed by the Government, but the Government does not, of course, apply that to those people who are in the training organisations that Mr Peters used to have some experience of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThen, when we look at this particular clause, I think the Government is making a mistake in removing section 9(c). For those who have not bothered to have a look at it, clause 4 states: \u201CSection 9 of the principal Act is amended by repealing paragraph (c).\u201D What does paragraph (c) state? It states: \u201CPersons of any class prescribed by regulations under this Act who are employed under contracts of service under which they are required to undergo any training, instruction, or examination for the purpose of becoming qualified for the occupation to which the contract of service relates:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EEven if the Government wants to be able to apply some minimum wages to certain people in training, it is making a mistake to take away the ability to have certain classes of people still being prescribed by regulation as not being covered by the minimum wage. There could well be some classes that the Government would like to exempt. I would be interested to know from the member. Is it intended to apply this to lawyers? I gave the example that lawyers at the moment have a longstanding tradition\u2014I do not know how far back it goes, but it probably runs back hundreds of years. If one wants to be a barrister, one is trained as a pupil. Are they going to be prescribed, or not? If they are not, why do we not at least keep that ability? I have never heard of any young barrister complaining about the situation. It is just a reality that one works one\u2019s way through. I think that clause 4 is not needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe Government should still be able to keep the power by regulation, even if it wants to have its centralised, Government-knows-best approach. Why remove section 9(c) of the principal Act, which enables the Government to decide to exempt by regulation any class of training people from being included within the minimum wage? I think the Government has done it as a drafting point. I do not think it is required. If the Minister thinks it through, there is absolutely no reason we could not keep section 9(c). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhy is the ACT party taking this view? We do it because, as the Government\u2019s own advisers have told the House, this bill will cost young people their opportunity to get training. Mr Ryall is absolutely right. Who are those young people who are going to lose out? It is the very people whom Labour says it supports. Young M\u0101ori are going to miss out; young Pacific Islanders are going to miss out. It will be those people who have the most difficulty even getting into training, and they will be the first out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EBut of course the Labour Party and its trade union mates have made many, many speeches saying that they are in favour of full employment, and are in favour of extending justice, but in fact, when it comes to the crunch, they have always been in favour of the closed shop, they have always been in favour of privilege, and they do not extend those opportunities. It is one of the great shames that, when we look at it, the Government\u2019s performance in education and in training is worse when it comes to M\u0101ori. Why M\u0101ori support this Government is beyond me. The Government cannot even produce any evidence that it is closing the gaps. I say that this clause is going to work against the very people whom the Government says it supports. That is not just my opinion. It cannot be dismissed by members opposite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002288af4a1d240e48cc9347d2fbe41436a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288af4a1d240e48cc9347d2fbe41436a5\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of National to continue to oppose this hapless legislation. Clause 4 talks about the people in this country to whom employers will apply a minimum wage. They are young people, 16 and 17-year-olds, who are in apprenticeship schemes across the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhy is the Labour Government pushing through this legislation? It is not because it is right to do so; the Government\u2019s own advisers have told the Government that this legislation is wrong. The Government\u2019s own advisers have told the Government that this legislation will lead to a reduction in employment for very young New Zealanders. The Government\u2019s own advisers have told it this legislation will fiscally cost it more money. So Government members are not enacting this legislation because it is right. They are not doing it because they have a lot of evidence that one day this legislation may be right. At the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, the officials could not actually produce a lot of evidence, because they had not done a lot of empirical research on what the results of this legislation would be. They just knew it would be wrong. That is why they wrote that up in the commentary on the bill\u2014they just knew that, fundamentally, it would add to unemployment and add to the Government\u2019s fiscal costs. So Government members did not proceed with this legislation because they knew it was right. They did it, and they are doing it, for one reason alone: they hold an ideological view that this legislation will be right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWell, I have a message for the Labour Government: it should go back and look to see when the number of people on apprenticeships started rising in this country. It was in 1992, when the Employment Contracts Act was passed by the previous National Government and flexibility started coming back. Government members are shaking their heads, but they should go and look at the numbers. Since I have been in this House, I do not know how many Labour members have been on their feet, telling us what a wonderful job they have done by having more people in apprenticeships across New Zealand. We have heard speech after speech\u2014and they have been right. The number of apprenticeships has been rising, but not because there has been a minimum wage. The Government\u2019s own advisers tell it there will now be fewer apprenticeships, and would have been fewer apprenticeships if the previous Government had had legislation like this in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIn 1992, when flexibility was introduced right across the labour market, New Zealanders of all ages, of all educational backgrounds, and in all areas of employment had a better opportunity of gaining employment. What this Government is doing will reverse that. So I do not think I want to hear any more Government members on their feet in the weeks ahead telling us why there will be an increase in the number of apprenticeships. There will be no such increase. The Government\u2019s own advisers are telling us that, because they know there will not be an increase. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis legislation will apply to very young New Zealanders\u2014to 16 and 17-year-olds. One thing we know about 16 and 17-year-olds is that they are leaving school without a full education through to year 13, or what was the seventh form in my day. They are leaving school without the equivalent of School Certificate\u2014the National Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014very possibly. They are certainly not leaving with University Entrance or with a bursary. They would not have had time to do that, so they are leaving school without the full set of educational skills in their toolbox. They are leaving without those skills. They are taking a statistical risk, against all advice given by the Department of Labour in this country, and by agencies in every country in the world, that the probability is that they will be paid less and that their chances of gaining employment will be less than if they had gained higher educational qualifications. Their only hope for employment is to gain some skills that will provide them with a chance to convince future employers that they are good at a job. That is their only hope. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat does this legislation tell us? It tells us that it is more important that those young people are guaranteed to receive $6.80 an hour than to have the chance to get a job. I say that that is completely wrong. If I was a 16-year-old New Zealander leaving school without the full educational skill-set in my toolbox, I would not care whether I was receiving $6.60, $6.70, or $6.80 an hour. What I would want is to know that I would have the opportunity to be able to earn a good wage in the years to come, because I would know I did not have the educational skills to fall back on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002245ab48d9c26b41beb3371b00b08d054c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ab48d9c26b41beb3371b00b08d054c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2a3a06fae7e4ce587c7f36cb78e4a76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2a3a06fae7e4ce587c7f36cb78e4a76\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (NZ National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in opposition to clause 4. I know that this will come as a surprise to the Government! The reason is that it repeals section 9(c) of the principal Act, which deals with people who are in training. That is what clause 4 does. I would like either of the Ministers in the Chamber, but particularly the Minister in the chair, the Hon Rick Barker, who I know has a genuine concern for young New Zealanders in the workforce, to take a call and explain to us why he believes that passing this legislation here tonight, in the dead of night, is going to help young New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s own advisers have said that the proposed change may have a small impact on the Government\u2019s fiscal position. The fiscal position would come from increased benefit payments that may occur from passing this legislation. That, to me, says there are going to be more young New Zealanders on an unemployment benefit than there are now. Maybe the Minister can clear this up for me, but that is how I read it. That is what is says in this legislation we are looking at. I would like the Minister, or some of the Labour members across the Chamber, to take a call and explain to us why that will not happen. All the evidence to the select committee, and all those who spoke on behalf of the 26,000 New Zealanders who will be affected by this, said that that will be the outcome. There will be fewer people in training, fewer people in employment, fewer people in the productive sector, and fewer people given an opportunity to go forward and be productive New Zealanders\u2014not more. Yet, as the Hon Richard Prebble said, the very vulnerable people whom the Labour Party purports to represent and look after are those who will be the most adversely affected by what is being proposed here tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is beyond the comprehension, I think, of wider society, which may be taking an interest in this legislation, that a Labour socialist Government would do this\u2014a Labour socialist Government that is predominantly occupied by former trade unionists and people who are supposedly going to look after those people. That fact was never brought home more clearly to me than when I was walking down to the Chamber tonight with the Hon Matt Robson. There is not a member in this House who is more philosophically at odds with me than the Hon Matt Robson, but he is not a bad guy; he is quite a nice guy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fa0f381b6004c3e998f43186a0ffd73\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Keith Locke?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022110e5786f4b6468cac623358dd71fe0a\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, Keith Locke is probably an exception. The member is right. I take that point. There is one member who goes further than Matt Robson; I accept that. Matt Robson and I do not agree on much, but he is quite a nice guy. What a sorry sight he was, coming down to the House tonight\u2014and he was one of two. That is how the socialists treat their own. When one looks at this legislation, one can see how that happens. Who would want to be protected by this lot? That is what they do to the people whom they purport to protect. They go about the country talking to businesses and spinning the spin\u2014the Prime Minister is an expert at this. They talk to businesses about how they are pro-growth\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb9a0c854ee34c179b30023efe6ba794\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: With her allies in France.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242a4fdfa485549d7a027c951ca4c8351\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly right. She has been overseas, drumming up business with the French, and selling dairy products in France. I agree with that; my colleague is absolutely right. She is meeting the coalition of the European unwilling. As we speak tonight, the Prime Minister is drumming up dairy business with the French. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere we are with a Prime Minister who purports to represent the business sector of this country, after having been told by the majority of businesses that this legislation will be detrimental to growth, and detrimental to young people and training. We should pause for a moment and consider that. My colleague touched on a very good point: the number of people who have come into industry training through employment, because they have been given an opportunity via a very minimum entry point, has increased amazingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u002275ae029a396f4907b41e7120b43ef82c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275ae029a396f4907b41e7120b43ef82c\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222e4eccc81da64cee86a0d0aab3512da9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000765\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000766\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f8524ffe31d4d0ab946fe7731102809\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 74\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 40\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000767\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000768\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000769\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030429decf7548cd0241409e2743a42a6d3d20000770\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.44 p.m. \u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"