"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002217e765a8225346d485bdd34759272ac6\u0022\u003ETuesday, 1 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ea4e48545c041899b888739683ee775\u0022\u003ETuesday, 1 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224f0ae1893db54d1eb4ffd6229139afe3\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220ba174dcbf164b98a0ea1b8bfc3187bc\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 4 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca114fc4db99414aa9b562737847bdb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca114fc4db99414aa9b562737847bdb6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think it is better to raise my point of order now rather than later, as it might give you a chance to think about the issue. I raise a point of order about Speakers\u2019 rulings 115/2 to 115/6, and 116/1 and 116/2. Those rulings are about the transfer of questions to Ministers. The relevant ruling says that, really, it is not a matter for the Speaker, and the Minister can transfer responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI raise this issue in respect of question No. 4, in my name. The transfer has resulted in the question no longer being the question I wanted to ask. That has occurred because my question was whether the Minister of Police had had discussions with the Commissioner of Police, and what that meant for New Zealand front-line policing. It has now been transferred to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, so it now asks whether the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade has had discussions, and what that means for front-line policing in New Zealand. If I had wanted to ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade that question, I would have addressed my question to him. I want to know what the Minister of Police thinks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI put this point to you. The reason I put \u201Che\u201D in the question is that if one writes \u201CMinister of Police\u201D, the Clerk\u2019s Office always crosses it out and writes \u201Che\u201D above it. If the Government wants the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade to be the Minister of Police in New Zealand as well, that is its prerogative. But, just as the Clerk\u2019s Office is able to cross out \u201CMinister of Police\u201D and put in \u201Che\u201D, in this case it should now cross out \u201Che\u201D and put in \u201CMinister of Police\u201D. If the Government really does want the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade to answer the question, it should now read: \u201CHas the Minister of Police discussed with the Commissioner of Police ...\u201D. That is the point I would like to put to you for you to think about before the House gets to my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3f522e21d7d4ee6a31364abd8926412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3f522e21d7d4ee6a31364abd8926412\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Very rarely does the Government respond to that kind of question, except to reassert the power of the Government to transfer questions. But I think in this particular case the member has a point. I would be happy to seek leave for the question to be transferred back to the Minister of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8cdcba598e4f26a15d0e2c2d20fa9a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is not. When the question is called, it will be to the Minister of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022167ddfe032be4478a75a9e54bf0a973e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022167ddfe032be4478a75a9e54bf0a973e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That transfer may well have been finally agreed to by Dr Cullen, but if the Minister of Police is not here, then the question will be answered by the person about whom Mr Prebble complained in the first place. It is a device at that point in time, a trick and a ruse, and treating the House like a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a46663d5403442aa7cb816b2a328f41\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is Acting Minister of Police. I can assure the member of that. The Minister of Police is overseas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e8f488e6acc7453a889f8eeb2ff4255b\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022419285eb79934d2a8cb231cabb7b5efc\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002243a7de3ef6064af4aecfc83d993e0b0a\u0022\u003ETransport Strategy\u2014Land Transport Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022221c59b20f3e4f3ba37364b58fa3ab3e\u0022\u003E1. JEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What will yesterday\u2019s announcements regarding land transport funding do to help implement the New Zealand Transport Strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002230e84d4e52b7404d87e9fc22a2574ee1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230e84d4e52b7404d87e9fc22a2574ee1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The land transport announcements yesterday take a major step towards meeting the objectives of the New Zealand Transport Strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5cdf7fc1421418b849e09d61f284a81\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Besides road funding, what initiatives to address the Government\u2019s other priority areas, such as promoting public transport, walking, and cycling to reduce congestion, were contained in the national land transport programme announced yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a40f13bffa064d2aab17e3231e494d0e\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The funding allocated in 2003-04 is a balance between maintaining and improving roading, and promoting passenger transport, alternatives to roading, and walking and cycling. For example, passenger transport has received $101 million for 2003-04, an increase of $16 million; and walking and cycling receive around $3.8 million, which is a slight increase, to resolve the broad problems of things like congestion in our major cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b18edf636684744b891c3debd9175ef\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: What does this agreement mean for people in regions like South Canterbury, Marlborough, the Kapiti Coast, and the Hawke\u2019s Bay?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022114ba34b67324cd0967ff271d5de4abb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a lot, after years of neglect of those people. I am thrilled with the announcements from Transfund and Transit that, for example, the Awatere bridge will be replaced, the Meeanee Road interchange will be built, the McKay\u2019s Crossing overbridge will be built, and the Normanby realignment will start this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6f2ad396ce40f9bac1a2f72623f577\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Given United Future\u2019s commitment to provide confidence and supply to the Government, and with the construction of the Transmission Gully highway pivotal to that agreement, how does the Government\u2019s announcement, which excludes Transmission Gully from its 10-year transport priorities, ensure that United Future will continue to support his Government on confidence and supply motions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222db437623f9a4525834a085ec6ccfe72\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question relates to what was in United Future\u2019s confidence and supply agreement, which made no mention of Transmission Gully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c2650ca36441b5846d2a464fad4970\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question was asked. The Minister can comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224077c3b7586f42d590cd8cfa0162a878\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Quite easily. I saw a statement from Mr Dunne welcoming some of the initial stages, in terms of the planning for that project, and I am grateful for that support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231e4fa6cfd1241b6a401b7edb80fb179\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen today\u2019s New Zealand Herald, page A5, which says that Auckland has gone from having 18 of the top 20 roading projects to just three; and could he inform us as to what Herculean efforts the Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues, Judith Tizard, was responsible for in terms of this outcome?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223acd039c3ac34b9cb5b824af1bfa63d1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen that report. I have also seen reports that say that Auckland received 18 out of the top 54 places\u2014most of that work done by the Herculean effort of the Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f902719d7b7341bd8e420a968c67460e\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the Government\u2019s objectives in the national land transport strategy could be achieved a whole lot more quickly if Transit could borrow against the projected income from Transfund to begin urgent projects now, instead of more of the economic resources of our businesses being wasted due to congestion, accidents, and inefficiency across the country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f776c5bb8a049f08635273b71f85de8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do agree with that. That is one of the issues being currently considered by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e1f855bdeb54315a4eccdf78006f0cf\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that economic efficiency is the major key component of the national land transport strategy, as stated in his speech last night and in comments this morning on National Radio, when he said: \u201CThe Government is committed to improving the transport infrastructure, so we can achieve our goal of returning the country\u2019s living standards to the top half of the OECD.\u201D; if so, will he ensure that this will be reflected in the final version of the Land Transport Management Bill when it is passed this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022862bc97fde094022a5ba6c1eafebeeb8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member is aware that the transport strategy actually mentions five key objectives, and those five key objectives are moving forward as a result of the announcements yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a989c8ec8d541a1a90589682bf94e19\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: When was the review of major projects first announced, and what is the scope of this review?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250dacbca9a53438d8788a357022d62fb\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The review was mentioned in the Speech from the Throne last year, and it also is part of the \u201CMoving Forward\u201D package released last year. The scope of the review includes those projects costing over $20 million whose contracts have not been let, and it is important that the review be completed by December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d89078209546d3bc55dcc64bc3b798\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister tell us why this Government is entering a review as a result of an agreement with the Green Party, a party that believes that people should walk to work\u2014including themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022532af8b55948462e865d04d8a8e21fe5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The reason we agreed to the review was that the Green Party was the only party in Parliament that was prepared to support the 4c petrol increase. What that member wants is more roads, but he is not prepared to pay for them. That is the problem he has got.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dcd40922bdc4652af70b2bdff19f18a\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Land Transport Management Bill help give further effect to the New Zealand Transport Strategy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022272e321902fd4890aae1638eee4f2f5f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: In a range of ways, but most notably through the ability for tolling and public-private partnerships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9c570377f734cea989ffaef5efb9c2b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document that proves that for every $2 Mr Swain takes he spends less than $1 on the roads\u2014that document being the Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022917e5d0d739f45e2878f6e200c8cc0af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the Budget. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292d79c816b854086a881e750a483a2cd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call question No. 2\u2014the Hon Bill English. [Interruption] I have called Mr English only. [Interruption] I said I had called Mr English only. The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f14858f5e22440da5fb06bd7f529ce0\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222413ec56fff04eb7a619f2ef8caae216\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: And he will leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc79b7171c4e4c458032fc4e395c09be\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Affairs, Associate Minister\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b0431a176444635a2736d1cee45448c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in her Associate Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs (Hon Tariana Turia); if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fe9d48da984b6ba66b7f5696ed01b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fe9d48da984b6ba66b7f5696ed01b8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Prime Minister: Yes, because she is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b1d9085fe64d45abad6200f74eded8\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minster reconcile the statement made by Tariana Turia this morning on the radio: \u201CWell, we\u2019re not even sure it\u2019s going to go so far as being a bill in the House.\u201D with the statement made by Dr Cullen just 4 days ago that the Government will introduce legislation extinguishing claims to customary title regarding the seabed and foreshore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c4b18c4d5314a42ae35e97eda5d9822\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because, to my certain knowledge, my colleague Dr Cullen has never said that legislation will be introduced extinguishing customary title to the \u201Cforebed and seashore\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022296ed61921b047a4b79d6474c346553d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: With reference to chapter 3 of the Cabinet Office Manual, which states that Ministers whose opposition to a Cabinet decision is such that they will not publicly dissociate themselves from it must resign from Cabinet\u2014and I emphasise \u201Cmust\u201D\u2014does the Prime Minister not accept the principle of one law for all in Cabinet, or, for that matter, one law for all across New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bb29df03d8745c5a470a773be033750\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that the Prime Minister accepts the rule of one law for all in Cabinet. What I can say is that, as the member herself said, there is a process under way, which, at this stage, also includes a caucus committee of Ministers and the M\u0101ori caucus. That process will lead to certain conclusions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06348dcf61149fa9852bd4babc771ba\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Prime Minister said to the Hon Tariana Turia that has led her to make public statements that there may not be legislation in respect of the argument over the foreshore and the seabed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efbe36ecbb3548429691b45f5866c348\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002234467253efa04d2c8a9c1550f5a0e947\u0022\u003ETransport Strategy\u2014Land Transport Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d7a883b3c9469cb16ff847325e33d4\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: What response has he received to Transfund\u2019s and Transit\u2019s transport announcement yesterday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022bcf423e3d2ed4091adf2d72a39df2ce8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bcf423e3d2ed4091adf2d72a39df2ce8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I have received a number of responses and too many to comment on. But the Timaru Mayor, Wynne Raymond, said he was delighted and encouraged that the safety concerns at Normanby had been addressed, and the Marlborough Mayor, Tom Harrison, is elated that the Awatere bridge is going ahead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fbd6013bed24d78b901e24544ae76a7\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: What are the key differences between Transit\u2019s draft State highway plan and the final version?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dd2542b472541d78f114b408e812df3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The difference is primarily redressing the balance between making sure that the priorities of congestion are dealt with in the Auckland region as well as regional priorities through the rest of the country. Transit has done a very good job in addressing this balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d49370bff214b4198d381a4f2252890\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Will Auckland receive a separate funding package as requested by the Auckland Mayoral Forum simply because yesterday\u2019s announcement was not enough; if so, how will the Government impose the extra tax, given United Future\u2019s opposition to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a809d5862ba44bb5b4e0fbbc7806aa99\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is working on a package for Auckland, and issues around funding are currently under consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a4bb79f90674c3faeeaf846e67b40eb\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the comments made by the Cycling Advocates Network expressing concern about walking and cycling funding apparently being fixed at $3 million, and what is his response to that concern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1708bdc9a8b4dae8a990e5ba4f558a3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen a lot of comments from people saying that they need more money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269c4f3805c3245cf9f6c66ea912f43fd\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by the Government statement that New Zealand will have an affordable, integrated, safe, responsive, sustainable transport system by 2010, and if he does stand by that will the $8.6 billion allocated be sufficient; if not, what is the estimate for the shortfall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc08f747eb15440ca5d990584a6c2b85\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do stand by that statement. The Government is currently working on a range of issues to address what has clearly been a transport deficit that was inherited from the previous National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022333ec30916004c078d50e5f9b28b3dbc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can we have an answer to Mr Brown\u2019s question, which was: what was the shortfall?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f8eb181b2748448a8318c3afdcbc5b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Brown did not ask just that. He had two parts to his question, and the honourable Minister addressed that question perfectly satisfactorily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59c682b1db84d1f964a65bb0a3e5c4c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If that is the case, and it was a pretty serious question addressing a 10-year period, Mr Brown gave the figure, and asked whether there was a shortfall, and what it was. Is it too much to ask the Minister to tell us what that is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e13edc086641cab4275aff95ae813e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps the Minister might care to make another brief comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022061f6b659ce9409595021f9cfd70a386\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is debate about this. For example, the Auckland region says that $2.4 billion is the shortfall there. We are currently working through these figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228d52d7594e3f4752b170ee56e9568a39\u0022\u003ESolomon Islands\u2014Police\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217fdfdd193ec42c1b8191bbee386d5ac\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Has he discussed with the Commissioner of Police the Government\u2019s offer of police to the Solomon Islands; if so, what assurances has the commissioner given that this commitment can be made without affecting New Zealand\u2019s front-line policing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdb3005f920e48dd9036bf5a16335805\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdb3005f920e48dd9036bf5a16335805\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Police: Yes, New Zealand has been asked to contribute to a police-led deployment to restore the rule of law in the Solomon Islands, and Cabinet will shortly make a decision on the shape and the size of that contribution. The Commissioner of Police has been closely involved in the scoping exercise of what is needed and how we can help. A bottom-line consideration will be what New Zealand can do, having regard to the priority that is always given to domestic considerations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b1a555c5614125b672667a5c0c647a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: What conclusion can the House reach, given that the Minister has not answered the second part of the question as to whether the Commissioner of Police has given him any assurance that a contribution from the New Zealand Police can be made to the Solomons without affecting New Zealand\u2019s front-line policing, especially since we all know that last year when the Government sent seven police to the Solomons for training the Commissioner of Police strongly objected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6248c7ac0c54981a35c00640724f000\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I can tell the member that, unlike last year when there were recruitment problems, overall the number of police is now at its target level, and in the previously difficult area of Auckland, it is actually 10 over its target level. The police commissioner is confident that drawing any support group from across the country as a whole would not leave any areas under-represented. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a302ff38f9541d79ce4992813e1c960\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: If, let us say, 30 New Zealand police officers were to be deployed to the Solomons, what percentage of the overall New Zealand police force would that represent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276d8590859c141fa8062744a3f236540\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That figure is somewhat arbitrary, but 30 police officers would represent less than a third of 1 percent of the total police force and less than 0.41 percent of the total number of sworn officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee4832646ae14a959fd2dea6fd866f8f\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Given that it takes 9 months from recruitment to graduation before police officers actually reach the front line, how will the police make up the shortfall, which will occur next month, over the 9-month period; or does the Minister agree with the Prime Minister when she said that we could go far beyond 30 before the country would feel the pinch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dbe6136a98a4c088af852dbbb421fd9\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Police has been very innovative in the way that he has filled the police ranks with competent people. That includes, for example, 74 experienced police officers from the British Isles who are now being deployed, and a new cadet-training scheme that has those cadets moving into training at the Police College at Porirua.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252d3a734a70b421983e0e3a5daf9e5e6\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Given that when the commissioner asked the Government for another 169 extra police over 3 years the Government\u2019s response was to announce in the Budget a total of 55 police over 4 years, if the commissioner says to the Minister that such a deployment will have a huge negative impact on policing on the ground, will he even be listened to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284ddcdac044e48dbaf6b802ea7c53ec0\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I can say for a fact that the commissioner is not stating that. He is very happy that with 9,554 members he has the largest police force ever in the history of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022483eb46ac99c41a48c206a0714bd2b44\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Minister explain to constituents of mine who are already feeling that community policing is being cut back and that their community policing centre is at threat, that the deployment of a police force to the Solomons will not make that situation worse for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022811dc86a18a24ad0bb5e6dc22a5f0c2f\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member can explain that to his constituents by stating that because of the extraordinary efforts of Government, the Government is now filling, fully, the quota of police officers that it wants, and that a relatively small number of police officers taken from around the country will not have any noticeable effect on policing in any district. He can also quote to his constituents that the president of the Police Association said it was a good move for the police, and would lead to better policing overall because of the experience that officers would gain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3d59a520edf4594abd65d940d3003c6\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Does the House understand the situation to be that the Commissioner of Police earlier this year said that he needed 169 extra police, and the Government gave 55\u2014a deficit of 114\u2014and that the Government has brought in 74 British police so that we can send 40 to the Solomons, so I ask why did we not just send the British police to the Solomon Islands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ec8c9250dce445fb2ad52be0c68da14\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: This Government is proud of the fact that since becoming the Government it has increased police numbers by 9 percent. I remind that member that when he had a short period of time as Minister of Police, it was one of the occasions during which police numbers in this country decreased. So our achievement is somewhat better than the member\u2019s was when he had his chance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d1068e4642f4982a6e4b8255b062807\u0022\u003ESolomon Islands\u2014Pacific Forum\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a978999a46d427780765d549af21b88\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (NZ Labour\u2014Mana)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: What recommendations were made by the Pacific Forum Foreign Ministers meeting in Sydney yesterday in regard to the situation in the Solomon Islands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00226ee835b0e3ac4d11abe2bc2a4fb3b70d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ee835b0e3ac4d11abe2bc2a4fb3b70d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E The Pacific Islands Forum Foreign Ministers meeting in Sydney yesterday decided unanimously to recommend to forum leaders a package of strengthened assistance to the Solomon Islands. This will include a policing operation to restore law and order, supported as necessary by armed peacekeepers, and a programme of assistance to strengthen the justice system and to restore the economy and basic social services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225342043c1dac47229a1491fd455a8dcb\u0022\u003ELuamanuvao Winnie Laban\u003C/span\u003E: What multilateral support is being offered by way of assistance to the Solomon Islands, in response to its request?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d00afa63bec4c7492dba05f74c2c5be\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Of course the Pacific Islands Forum itself is a multilateral organisation, and the support was offered unanimously. What is more, more than half the countries present at the forum said they would give not only support in principle but also practical support. The Commonwealth Secretary-General has also endorsed the moves being made by the Pacific Forum countries, and when the matter was referred to the United Nations Department of Political Affairs, the United Nations also responded warmly to the effort being made by the forum countries to respond to the request from a sovereign country for badly needed help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d88becf94dd49109520e1497d9f49b9\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Minister has indicated that the United Nations is only informed, at best, why does the Minister insist on going through that process, whereas Mr Downer, the Australian Foreign Minister, has specifically said: \u201CThe United Nations is unable to deal with collapsing societies such as the Solomon Islands.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db2e2fe06084879b83ed9f560caa247\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I think I have spoken to Mr Downer rather more recently than the member. Mr Downer has confirmed that where we can get multilateral support, that really helps the achievement of the objectives being set out. Once a final decision has been made, the same process will be followed with regard to the Solomon Islands as was followed in relation to the deployment in Bougainville. The United Nations will be notified by the Solomon Islands under article 54, and the United Nations will respond warmly to the effort that is being made to restore security and stability in the region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256f4ae85325c4c1ab8efc244b9bed14b\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: In what the Minister has described as essentially a policing operation, would it not be a little bit over the top for the Australia - New Zealand military back-up force\u2014recognising the need for a military back-up force\u2014to be something approaching 2,000 soldiers, when the police will be confronting a relatively isolated and disparate group of criminal elements rather than an organised military force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55a5c3fa5ab415399dcaa92a41c653a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right that the proposal is for a police-led deployment. The restoration of law and order is, after all, a policing task and not a military task. The member is also right that we need to have a military back-up of armed peacekeepers because there are estimated to be up to 750 high-powered weapons in the community. I guess the country that should have the greatest say on this is the Solomon Islands, and the Solomon Islands Government has indicated comfort with the sort of figures that were discussed at the forum yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de464534a741435b8397554dc7f60a35\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Do the detachments that were discussed at the forum yesterday in respect of New Zealand have the approval of the New Zealand Cabinet at this stage, and if they do not have that approval, what is their status, in terms of both their ultimate approval and the time line by which they might be implemented?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022981bdc02f5f445d98b6f5a3b66c2d007\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: There are a couple of prerequisites before support can go ahead. One is, obviously, the formal request through the Governor-General of the Solomon Islands; the second is for the Solomon Islands Parliament to pass legislation. In anticipation of that, Cabinet will shortly be discussing the nature, the shape, and the size of the deployment that is being made\u2014policing, military, and aid. I would expect Cabinet to be considering that in the near future. It has not been done yet, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e7aa47cdb454b0e8852290ceba80cca\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table a report in the Australian newspaper, the Courier Mail, in which Mr Downer says that the United Nations is unable to solve the problems of rogue States and collapsing societies such as the Solomon Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dde1d519838749229be07eccb1e8791e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022775049fef3664031bcd5fe436a80e17b\u0022\u003ETe M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho\u2014Reviews\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d281fc927d7c45d8894ddf4ee118a39d\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (NZ National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: What reviews of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho or its senior staff are being undertaken at present, and what is the reporting timetable for each of those reviews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd5e934480734dd4992a120d51f3bee8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd5e934480734dd4992a120d51f3bee8\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E There are two reviews being undertaken at the moment. The board is in the process of completing its review of the chief executive\u2019s performance and specific conduct relating to allegations made, and I expect to be advised of the outcome in the next day or so. The Audit Office is currently conducting its annual audit of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho, and that is expected by mid-July.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a041a60c6824b97bfbe1eeb4e3c6bf9\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that comment about the Audit Office, what assurances can the Minister give this House that Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho funding to Dreamtime Entertainment Ltd has been appropriately spent, given that the company presented 13 cheques totalling $19,810 for petty cash, and the Audit Office could not find any documentation or reconciliations showing how those payments reconcile with that amount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220733b4acbcb44b28b3fcd1a388ab3a3d\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I look forward to the audit report so I can read the detail that the member seems to have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bea1939dac9d4d9db272538b932bd137\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What will the Audit New Zealand annual audit of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho include?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5d7dd98e44b4ce9831cab3852d5bcd8\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: The board has advised me that as part of its annual review of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho, Audit New Zealand will do an in-depth review of the systems, policies, and procedures surrounding the allocation and monitoring of Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho contracts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d552877dac4546e39d4119d41c72afa5\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How does the purchase by Dreamtime Entertainment of two sets of golf clubs valued at $2,281, ostensibly as props for Te Wero, a youth game show, but now in possession of two company directors, contribute to the promotion of te reo and M\u0101ori culture?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226d1cd9abc6149c1b74c3ef2a91aa887\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that that is an issue that will be addressed in the review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002250b7b519c3df4a2cb12b79212f9a2a05\u0022\u003EPrimary Health Organisations\u2014Establishment\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aabffcdb6ec1482e8e9d4b68ba29ca74\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What progress has been made in the development of primary health organisations since the first one was established 1 year ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002273221df6109b49b3acb5334ed4ab0a3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002273221df6109b49b3acb5334ed4ab0a3e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The implementation of primary health organisations has far exceeded expectations. We hoped there would be around 300,000 people involved with primary health organisations after 1 year. Today there are 47 primary health organisations, covering 1.7 million people. By October, every region in New Zealand is expected to have a primary health organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a2f3ac4c2044862b544f85165816c61\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has she received regarding the future of primary health organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479a476d3d544941ae0dfb839f12bf35\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen many reports, most of them indicating that primary health organisations are here to stay and that the need for low-cost access to primary health-care is widely accepted by New Zealanders. I also note the Auditor-General\u2019s comments that the primary health-care sector could benefit from a period of stability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b16121852c049ceb5af58f06016e753\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Why, at the general practitioners conference on continuing medical education in Taupo last weekend, did not one of the hundreds of general practitioners who were at that conference raise a hand when asked to do so if he or she thought that primary health organisations would improve patient care in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f54c8ac25ca34045beefaad72ed0df91\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot speak for the general practitioners at that conference, but I can quote from a statement by the Royal New Zealand College of General Practitioners, which stated: \u201CThe commitment to an improved funding environment for primary health-care is, therefore, significant and timely.\u201D I could quote from general practitioners who are working in primary health organisations, who say that primary health organisations will provide a new way for health professionals to work together in the community to prevent ill-health and provide early intervention. I could provide many testimonies from general practitioners who like working in the way that they are working and are prepared to speak up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfbd8482ea1544a3a3a7d6b8737c9059\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister doing to address the inequities in the current system, whereby people\u2019s health needs are being addressed differently in terms of cost by virtue of a geographic dint?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125ae22d54344a2d9a7be5dcfd7780ba\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Inequities in the provision of primary health-care have existed since we got rid of subsidies for all New Zealanders in the \u201Cmother of all Budgets\u201D of 1991 and brought in a community services card. This Government is undertaking to bring back affordable primary health-care to all New Zealanders. We are doing it over time, but we are addressing first those people who need primary health-care the most. In the first instance, we are most interested to address the inequities that they face in their health status, but we will address the health needs of all New Zealanders over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac4148d7587d4a7a87304b33ef8a3f67\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Given the objective referred to by the Minister of getting health professionals to work together, how many pharmacies are part of primary health organisations, and are any such collaborations between pharmacies and primary health organisations likely to be compromised by the Pharmac stat proposal, which is likely to cause the closure of many pharmacies around New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222adceb3028ee4272bce36b37ce17311c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to inform the member that pharmacists are increasingly interested in primary health organisations. At 6.30 this evening I am launching the capital primary health organisation, which is made up of a number of M\u0101ori providers and the Wellington Independent Practice Association, and pharmacists are part of that primary health organisation. I have a number of other examples, and I have been encouraging pharmacists to look to work within primary health organisations, because they have a very important role to play.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac9165faa3fe43f581fa6b5e48c2dfb6\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: What guarantee can the Minister give that the health outcomes from the Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua primary health organisation will be in any way measurable, given that $1.5 million of taxpayers\u2019 money was spent last year on the Ng\u0101ti Wh\u0101tua O Orakei Health Clinic, with her excuse for a lack of outcomes there being that \u201Cgeneral health gains are difficult to assess\u201D, with an example being spending of $370,000 in 2002 for smoking cessation, which questioning revealed to be just a pilot scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022626fd44be6944538956bb14914d5badf\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, the fact that we would want a pilot anti-smoking programme for M\u0101ori to be run by a particular M\u0101ori health provider should be welcomed by this House, but having heard that member\u2019s speech on a bill before this House, I understand that she is not the least bit interested in that. Money spent on health outcomes is hard to measure over a 1-year period, because one is looking to change behaviour in terms of smoking, obesity, and exercise, and one does not get results overnight. This Government is committed to achieving better long-term health outcomes for New Zealanders, and we will see them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bc21114ce8432b8c45f49a36b6c123\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The answer was too long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f9d5a0432854787801b87d8b0a6e7d6\u0022\u003EHome Detention\u2014Sentenced Offenders\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac3cf36288d4943880bbab49a176624\u0022\u003E8. RON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Is he satisfied that sentenced offenders are adequately screened for their suitability for home detention before it is granted?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002200dd897690674b188766ab1f8080e7e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200dd897690674b188766ab1f8080e7e9\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E I am confident that the Community Probation Service has robust procedures in place to ensure that the New Zealand Parole Board has relevant information to assist it in making decisions on home detention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148ea906f0e24dd7b0f770068f8ceb9d\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House which of the following offences committed by Delaney Mark Temara make him suitable for home detention: using a loaded firearm against police, assaulting a female, assaulting prison officers, intimidating a court witness by hanging her dog on a clothes line and slitting its throat, stabbing, two counts of aggravated robbery, burglaries, and wilful damage\u2014or have I missed some endearing quality that has rendered that violent criminal as being worthy of home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d99787867b424a87aba0649db4f800a8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, I cannot comment on a specific case, but what I can say to the member is that the procedures in place for the probation service to provide information to the Parole Board are robust. The Parole Board is the body that makes the decision, and it is an independent organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edabcf3d10a54a0b9649564d2a8f725c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Why can this Minister not comment upon a specific case? It is not a matter of things being sub judice. The person has gone to trial. This is about a matter of home detention for which this Minister has responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022044792cc9c7844f2be62393b5a440336\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister does not have the details. He is perfectly entitled to give that response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baf72d88cc2d47c1aa3b0c86bfcc037d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a further point of order, Mr Speaker. That Minister said: \u201CI can\u2019t comment on a specific case.\u201D It is not a question of whether he has the details; he clearly implied to this House that it was not a matter that he could comment on from a legal or other restrictive point of view. That is what he said, and I ask why he is constrained from talking on this case, because he is the Minister responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229101e257c7034e5ba29df9f3108c15f2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s point is not valid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f24b2d5ef2ec4a2bbd0605f72c785988\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What matters are required to be covered by the Community Probation Service when reporting to the Parole Board about an application for home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e85ecccd4ac44901a1e19ede787a19b5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The report must cover matters listed in the Parole Act\u2014namely, the likelihood of an offender committing more offences while on home detention, the nature of the offence or offences, the welfare of the offender, and the safety and welfare of occupants in the residence where the offender is to be detained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d27799cf8f3041b38e364735f867e04c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister stand by his comment that the Community Probation Service provides robust information to the Parole Board, when it was the Community Probation Service that recommended that a man who went to jail for beating his wife so badly he had to give her cardiopulmonary resuscitation to keep her alive, can serve out part of his sentence on home detention with the woman he originally bashed, only to bash her again within weeks of his release on home detention recommended by that Community Probation Service, which he says provides robust information to the Parole Board?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022100265be32d8404db1093d758d9223ab\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As I pointed out, the Parole Board makes the decision, not the Community Probation Service. The Community Probation Service is not the only organisation that provides information to the Parole Board. It is the Parole Board that makes the independent decision on the information it has before it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c97d23c3c28468fa3a803cada76c57b\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely how does the probation service, or any other corrections officer, measure risk to the community when offenders are released, given that the Minister\u2019s Government thinks that Michael Carroll, a five-time rapist with an assessed two-out-of-three chance of seriously reoffending within 5 years, and with the second most dangerous prison security classification, is not an undue risk to the safety of the people he was placed amongst; and if the Minister will not deal with a particular case, can he tell us precisely which rule or Standing Order he is hiding behind in not giving answers to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8294bee70784224a9cb8c4ff646a9e4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, the Parole Board, which is an independent organisation, makes the decision. The probation service provides information, but it is not the only information that the Parole Board uses to make its decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcfca19e65874f3d8c6111f674f74270\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Why, when police officers\u2019 lives were imperilled while apprehending this dangerous offender, when witnesses were subject to horrific intimidation and then suffered amnesia when questioned in the court, is this Government allowing offenders like Delaney Mark Temara the privilege of home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022165041d086c34585b4afef7a527f2e44\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, home detention has had a lot of support in the House\u2014actually it was introduced by the previous National Government. It is supported because it has a very, very good record in terms of reoffending, compared with imprisonment. As that member knows, the Community Probation Service provides information, but, ultimately, the decision is made by the independent Parole Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218bf0dd88a4942048ca623cbc61d73bf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that this violent thug is permitted to go shopping on Fridays in Christchurch and to attend carving instruction Monday to Thursday at a venue other than where he resides, and why does the Minister persist in the use of the term \u201Chome detention\u201D when it is obvious that it is neither detention nor at home, and how does the Minister ensure that this man is taking his psychiatric medication, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eda8b4362db4817a47b28263d336bc4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not aware of that particular case, but I am aware that there are a number of phases under home detention, which that member supported when he was in the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98d8b5cc79a47c59dddf473379017ca\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last part of that answer was unnecessary. The member should withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8a7d60816af4875b44c0209344b3044\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809d413a1b97423b8e8e66210208715f\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table some documents. The first is a document relating to Delaney Mark Temara and his home detention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249fb8689636647cc96d4f2863937200f\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a number of reports published at the time that Delaney Mark Temara was tried in May 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249fbca4ea62543208637591fa69d73d9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table those documents. Are they press releases?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ec50afcb55540c388db8cebb4dfab2a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: No, they are press reports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245eb2547563d4862aece368c4ad803bc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022286f613ffe5d4c7abccd32e39d867f97\u0022\u003EBusiness\u2014Compliance Costs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dae9ece04774327b8eefeebc52dadc8\u0022\u003EH V ROSS ROBERTSON (NZ Labour\u2014Manukau East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business: What success has the Government had in implementing the recommendations of the Ministerial Panel on Business Compliance Costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u002249819bf5672e46529908e5d9f62036e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249819bf5672e46529908e5d9f62036e9\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Today I have released the Government\u2019s report back on the implementation of the recommendations. I am pleased to announce that over 80 percent of the recommendations are now implemented or are in the process of implementation. Together, these represent at least 95 percent of potential benefits from compliance cost reduction to all small businesses in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d070fcf4c216420d990d6a69465f3081\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: What initiatives have been taken to improve Resource Management Act applications to facilitate resource consents\u2014a common compliance-related complaint of developers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220110e4ea60c44dd993c21d2cef708149\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Additional funding for the Environment Court, and collaboration between the Ministry for the Environment and the Environment Court, mean that significant reductions in Environment Court backlog and delays are being achieved, to the extent of over one-third or 1,000 cases in 1 year. The introduction of limited notification has curbed frivolous and vexatious objections. If the member wishes to know more about developments in this area, I suggest he set down a question to the hard-working Minister for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c38aa7f74bd41d9a909b5161d8b90e2\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: What was the position of the Ministerial Panel on Business Compliance Costs on today\u2019s tax increase of 3c per litre of petrol, and also its position on the proposed flatulence tax on farmers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d768e8deb54885858d615ccfdd2f3d\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: It had no position on those matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da84295dde2a4a30a49c071b30940b5c\u0022\u003EPharmac\u2014Dispensing\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd08651bda9c4d129a861e75a987a41f\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (NZ National\u2014Kaikoura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What analysis has the Government undertaken into the impact on the pharmacy workforce of a return to stat dispensing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1d5582ecafa4b11b1f24eb949706817\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1d5582ecafa4b11b1f24eb949706817\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Pharmac has been reviewing the 2,500 submissions received regarding the proposal. Included amongst the submissions were a number that raised workforce issues. Pharmac is considering these submissions at present and has investigated many of the concerns, including costs associated with maintaining the current geographical spread of pharmacies. To date, no decisions have been made in relation to this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c965e4ac7142c9ba67e4ee53d7b60d\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that in the Nelson area alone, pharmacists estimate that five pharmacies are likely to close, 10 pharmacists\u2019 jobs may go or be reduced in hours, nine dispensing staff may lose their jobs, and 15 shop staff may lose their jobs or have reduced hours, and what does the Minister have to say to the people who face job losses if Pharmac\u2019s dispensing proposal goes ahead?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d97fc3fe99543b8be98d81ff90879df\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I intend to wait until Pharmac has considered all the submissions, because part of its consideration is the provision of pharmacy services around New Zealand, and I know that Pharmac is taking account of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca65add5bdac4a608d41aafb1c3d8f5e\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that young pharmacists will leave the country if stat dispensing is introduced?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220665903f4914586a793555f971eb24f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Recent evidence from the Pharmaceutical Society\u2019s survey found that over half of the New Zealand \u2013 trained pharmacists living overseas plan to return. Most live in the United Kingdom, where stat dispensing is the norm. They are paid 93 pence per item, minus 11 percent mark-up. New Zealand compares very favourably. We pay $5.16, plus a 4 percent mark-up. Members can see why they want to return to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226be367ca8bae415c948c9f22d59a41fa\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that a stat-dispensing regime would undermine the primary health-care strategy by compromising close control of patients; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b1cf20d9e5445d82e8ef332d25036f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not think that stat dispensing would necessarily undermine the primary health-care strategy. Certainly, it would depend on how pharmacists work with primary health organisations and the primary health-care strategy. There is an opportunity in the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Bill to ensure that primary health organisations can have a far greater role in the provision of pharmacy services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a29b7f4299f04d8396a887407ce69e56\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: If, as predicted, hundreds of pharmacies around New Zealand close down, do I take it from the Minister\u2019s previous answer that she is suggesting that one solution would be to use her powers under the forthcoming Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Bill to open up pharmacies in other areas around primary health organisations and supermarkets, etc. in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eed5e7562e84e4e92378eb3fb48f4c7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am saying that there is the opportunity for pharmacists to work in the primary health-care strategy and in primary health organisations. That was what the member asked me about and that was what I was talking about. However, I would say to the member that it was only at the end of last year\u2014and some members may have forgotten\u2014that headlines in Pharmacy Today stated that pharmacists were overworked because of the number of prescriptions they had to dispense. It may be that with a stat-dispensing approach the number of prescriptions that pharmacists are required to dispense would be reduced, and therefore some of their workload would be relieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b72fa7678d447c6b5e8f2063e3a5cc4\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: In view of the concerns expressed by the pharmacy sector about Pharmac\u2019s proposal on stat dispensing, will the Minister consider convening a meeting between Pharmac, district health boards, and the pharmacy sector to address the threat that that proposal has on the viability of pharmacies and community access to pharmacy services, particularly in provincial and rural areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5ff644706a44de2833e44827ee30901\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: A very good suggestion was put forward by the leader of United Future that the parties involved\u2014the Pharmacy Guild, the Pharmaceutical Society, Pharmac, and others\u2014discuss the provision of pharmacy services. I am very happy for such a meeting to take place. However, it needs to be around the role and provision of pharmacy services, because in our changing environment we need to look at how we do provide those services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aeb019d95a04b99a3a5fa0c03df121d\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that in a survey of members of the Pharmacy Guild in March it was conservatively estimated that 2,000 jobs would be lost in the sector if the Pharmac proposal went ahead; and if pharmacies are going to close and staff lose their jobs, why is this not an issue that the Minister of Health should take some responsibility for, rather than simply passing the buck?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f18977ab3e3d4df58470653090c60ef4\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say that I have taken my lead in this respect from when we changed from stat dispensing to monthly dispensing. It happened in 1996 and the then Minister of Health, Mrs Shipley, in conjunction with Mr Williamson, decided that that issue was to be decided by Pharmac. Its job was to manage the pharmaceutical schedule. I have taken my lead from that and I am watching very carefully as to what is happening and ensuring that there is the provision of pharmaceutical services, not in terms of the management of the schedule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c900c373fc4a436e9885feab93c462c1\u0022\u003ETransport Strategy\u2014Green Party\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbe7751b96c24cb98c71df4745cecd0a\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Can he confirm that the Mt Roskill extension, the Esmond Road interchange, the North Shore busway, the Hewletts Road / Maunganui Road overpass, and the Wellington inner-city bypass highway projects are all now subject to review because of an agreement between the Government and the Green Party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c01a9a932ba54b82a85e5ca67c0c3ff0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c01a9a932ba54b82a85e5ca67c0c3ff0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, and it was also foreshadowed by the Government in the Speech from the Throne last year. The Transit authority and the Transfund board will be making final decision on the outcome of the review by December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258eef2edd74d4adcae9a4daac24d0bb3\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying, by his previous answer to question No. 1 to the leader of the New Zealand First Party, that when the Government made that deal with the Greens in the previous Parliament it had no choice but to accept the Greens\u2019 demands; if so, does he think the country should be rejoicing now that the Greens can no longer hold us all to ransom, because the Government has a more reasonable choice with United Future to help solve the country\u2019s problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd16faf5b454401ca9fa66c6bb69e82f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It would be highly inappropriate to comment on the second part of the question. I can say that as part of coalition agreements, and discussions with parties under an MMP Parliament, the Greens provided support for the petrol price increase; and that provided the Government with the ability to fund a number of the projects that were announced yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231ee35241b944b2f8e4a74d6acd70b2e\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: When will the review of major projects be completed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0302aebc9dc4e7997666f6a6f65a0db\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The review will get under way immediately. It will be completed by December 2003. This tight time frame will ensure that any delays are kept to an absolute minimum and that final decisions can be made as soon as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b27c2874b83e4a29817a2a402abbe575\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister letting the Greens hijack the Government\u2019s transport strategy; and in doing so, does he accept he is threatening the confidence and supply arrangement between United Future and Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4cd09fcea3b41a9a2682e59060472f3\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Because I am not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022338537a2b8ca406b96532b363a2f17e6\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that it does neither him nor his Government any good to allow rumour to develop and persist around the projects that were outlined in the principal question, by giving credence to a bunch of wacky-baccy skateboarders, simply because they roll over every time he wants to increase the price of petrol?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac0653555ef74846bbe74fe3b25e26a8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The phrase is a little infelicitous but I will ask the Minister to comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c965d05c61ed44b4b27bce8fb14017ad\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think I will comment on that particular part of the question, but I will say that the Greens did provide support, and it is interesting to note that the vast majority of Opposition parties want to spend more money on roads but are not prepared to provide support to the Government to be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222092534a3bf04c558133ab06362882b1\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Now that it appears that the Greens\u2014who have no support agreement with Labour\u2014have more clout than the Hon Peter Dunne, who has bound himself to support Labour, should Wellingtonians, seeing the bypass project again at risk from Government policy, be begging Mr Dunne to please stop championing roading efficiency here, in case he proves even more successful than he has been to date in getting changes in Government policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb1ca11c6f040d2bcb3babc64162bba\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I work very constructively with United Future. Can I just say that it is not just about roading; it is about a wide range of transport projects, including walking and cycling. About 3 percent of the funding goes towards walking and cycling, which is about the ACT party poll result. That party will need to keep pedalling faster if it wants to get above the 5 percent threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b8993aff3d643f58f66a6db55f25289\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Greens and the Government have an ongoing cooperation agreement on transport, and that we are working on a range of transport issues, including vehicle emissions, various pieces of legislation, coastal shipping, rail policy, and the review of major projects, which was announced last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd45f48232d446b9b25fa9a63e6e4a61\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5dc2ce5ac0d4146a8df12ab0802b356\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to Wellington Mayor Kerry Prendergast\u2019s comments, when she said she feared that the review would be used to further delay the Wellington inner-city bypass project, and that she hoped the Wellington City Council and other local authorities would be given a chance to set the terms of reference?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022898fe7bee62a414195e03f01aac7d28d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes that mayor worries a lot, unduly. This review will be robust, and it will be completed by December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c3d1fdcd200453a8ab5b7887f1199ef\u0022\u003ECivil Aviation Authority\u2014Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c29d88880824d4387037b9e1a1323a1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Transport: Does he have full confidence in the Civil Aviation Authority; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022f0f2a716cfcf47f48662f92b77cad77d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f0f2a716cfcf47f48662f92b77cad77d\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Associate Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86aefcb16de48cea02a6db21b9625ac\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister then please explain why the flying public should have confidence in the Civil Aviation Authority, when he, as Minister, says he has to await the results of a State Services Commission inquiry before answering such straightforward parliamentary questions as to whom does flight inspector Mr Richard Cox report, and what were his expenses for the year\u2014or does he expect the public to fly blind, while he is not prepared to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cb31b01d4134b599e1735a13430277b\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: My confidence is based on the fact that when the issue was raised, first a full internal review took place, and as a result of that review the chair asked the State Services Commissioner to conduct a full independent review. I have answered many questions on the issue and am very pleased with what has taken place to date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa40f32bd24f4b24b815d520bbac4949\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister seen on the performance of the Civil Aviation Authority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7f14447ed234d128808c3056f83c747\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: In May of this year Colmar Brunton surveyed a range of customers of the Civil Aviation Authority, including pilots, maintenance organisations, doctors, and airline operators and owners\u2014a total of 302 respondents. Thirty-one percent rated the performance of the Civil Aviation Authority as excellent, and a further 56 percent rated its performance as between five and seven out of 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fef9b08f5ec4f0a8f81ae462b1725df\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that he as Minister refused to answer parliamentary written question No. 5776\u2014as to whether flight inspector Richard Cox was working privately for the company he was inspecting\u2014when the State Services Commissioner disclosed that very fact in his terms of reference only a few days later; and does the Minister no longer think he is accountable to Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e69b058e58422293fc15a6b58fb0d9\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I did not refuse to answer the question. I simply said that that was a matter being investigated by the State Services Commissioner. The member cannot have it both ways. We cannot actually have an independent inquiry, then have the Minister coming over the top of it and answering questions. It seems to me that we leave the inquiry to do its job properly, then report on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263ba4cbda4424337a9dba63a7abb615b\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the Minister\u2019s confidence in the Civil Aviation Authority, does he believe it appropriate that the Civil Aviation Authority director, Mr John Jones, approved his \u201Ctop flight inspector, Mr Richard Cox\u201D to tout for business as a safety consultant, from an airline operator that he had, through the Civil Aviation Authority, just grounded and had under inspection; or is misusing the Civil Aviation Authority safety rules to profit privately, par for the course and something he says we should have confidence in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a32870b54bde4b3ca03ffcf1cfac757b\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: Those are exactly the sorts of matters that are being investigated by the inquiry. Mr Hide has made many allegations such as that just now, and I have asked him on several occasions that if he has evidence to back up his claims, to please provide it. Action will be taken very quickly when he does so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220470c4bf8fef4d898599bb953e42739c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: To help the Minister, I seek the leave of the House to table the very answers to the question he has given me that confirm everything I have just said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95c5da63820487baf020868d1f99309\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d073d4f18b4be290b75a788f482210\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN\u003C/span\u003E: I seek to table the terms of reference for the review by the State Services Commissioner of the Civil Aviation Authority matters raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bbdf93bea874bc19f3cb8d10e81c2a8\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As the Minister has now been given leave to table the terms of reference, is he prepared now to answer all the written questions he turned down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53791d9d24e48acab9dafb105a04630\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order; it is a point of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4c25b0f34a4177bb9cfec3403260c8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244afa8e3b66b4270ad9ce70073a59842\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to carry this on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e84bc55bc9448f85dfa85c297a3fbb\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I have got myself in a difficult situation, and so has the Minister because he said that I had made allegations, yet he has just tabled the terms of reference, which state precisely what I asked him about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253e9db2889a46d6afcbb9078c1c1edf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that is a debating point. It may well be made in debate, but it is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221b1fa969708942b9bd9e3a39c184ac1c\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bb7a30e96fd14ba7a640f73f682163f1\u0022\u003ESolomon Islands\u2014Deployment of Police and Military Forces\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00223347863529394a1294c31f490b2e9359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223347863529394a1294c31f490b2e9359\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from the Leader of the Opposition seeking to debate under Standing Order 376 a decision in principle that New Zealand will send police officers and military forces to the Solomon Islands as part of the South Pacific\u2019s intervention in that country. The announcement by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade that the decision has been taken in principle is, I believe, a particular case of recent occurrence, even though the final details of that intervention have not yet been settled. The matter clearly involves ministerial responsibility and requires the immediate attention of the House. I therefore accept the application and call on the member to move the motion accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00222151d4620cf04bdf80bd074cc349c30c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222151d4620cf04bdf80bd074cc349c30c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of a matter of urgent public importance. We are debating this matter today because it is another significant contribution New Zealand is making, another significant call on our defence forces and, in this case, our police forces. The lesson that we can draw from it is this: so much for the benign strategic environment! The irony is that this Parliament has, just in the last couple of months, debated three significant deployments by the New Zealand Defence Force to parts of the world that certainly cannot be called benign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ebfca8ed924be5af4edc0ce4f032b6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the Leader of the Opposition, but there are people close to him who are talking. There is too much noise. I regard it as a rare occasion when I accept one of these debates. This debate is to be held in comparative silence, and I want it to proceed from now on in that vein. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3d70e6f2f674dcdbecc0802f600ec7c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Parliament is conducting this debate against the background of a defence policy that is based purely on that one single assumption: that we live in a benign strategic environment. It is becoming increasingly clear\u2014in fact, I think it is actually a fact of Government policy\u2014that New Zealand is the only country in the Asia-Pacific region that believes we live in a benign strategic environment. The commitment to the Solomons is yet another piece of evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELet us just sort out the facts of the matter about what this commitment is, because I would be interested in the Government explaining its own rhetoric. We are being told that it is a police-led deployment. Well, that must and can only mean that the police get off the boat first, because in fact it is a major defence commitment first and foremost. We can go only on the reported comments coming out of the Pacific Islands Forum, which say that New Zealand will commit up to 200 soldiers and 40 police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Government is going to have a discussion in Cabinet about the exact size of the deployment, and the details of who goes when and with what equipment. But the Government should stop calling it a police-led deployment. We are sending 200 of our armed defence personnel\u2014soldiers, not engineers; 200 of them\u2014to a place where there is plenty of shooting going on and where, as the Minister has pointed out today, 750 automatic weapons are estimated to be floating around what is quite a small community even by New Zealand standards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E There also happen to be 40 police going as well. The Government seems very anxious to couch this whole deployment as simply a matter of law and order\u2014dealing with the criminals and getting a law and order system going. I do not believe that that is the case. I believe that the fact that the Government is sending 200 armed soldiers tells us that the objectives of this deployment are rather different. Certainly the Australians think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EListen to this description from Greg Ansley at the Pacific Islands Forum: \u201CWith several hundred firearms in the hands of militants and criminals, including automatic weapons\u201D\u2014and members should listen to this\u2014\u201Ccombat troops will be deployed to quell opposition by militants.\u201D Now, what does that mean?\u2014\u201Ccombat troops will be deployed to quell opposition by militants such as warlord Harold Keke ...\u201D. Quelling opposition with soldiers does not sound like a police-led deployment. Either one story is being told at the Pacific Islands Forum and we are getting a different one here in New Zealand, or, worse than that, maybe there is fundamental disagreement between the New Zealand Government and the Australian Government about the purpose of this deployment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Defence, who I know has been over there in discussions with Alexander Downer and the Australian Defence Minister, ought to get up in the House and tell us whether New Zealand is sending combat troops who will be deployed to quell opposition by militants. Is that what we are going to do, or are we going to send some police to round up a few criminals\u2014because these are completely different objectives? I am asking the Government today to explain clearly to the public of New Zealand, and the Parliament of New Zealand, who will back our defence forces to do the job, and to explain to us exactly what it is they see as the objectives in the Solomons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI have been hesitant to inject criticism into this debate, because in general I believe that this is exactly the kind of role New Zealand should be fulfilling in its region. But I have learnt, as has this Parliament, that the Government is at best economical with the truth in describing what it is doing with our military resources and our police. Here we have two completely different descriptions of the objectives: a police-led deployment focused on rounding up some criminals, or on the other hand the evidence of 200 soldiers we are sending. Australia is sending about 1,500 troops. Let the Parliament not be confused: 200 is simply New Zealand\u2019s contribution. The Australians are sending well over 1,000 armed soldiers to this police-led deployment to round up a few criminals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe simply do not believe the story, because the story does not add up. On these matters, more than any, the Government should be candid. We are looking for a full explanation of the Government\u2019s aims, and the Government has already set out some of those aims. It has said that it wants to restore a working police force, a justice and corrections system that works. They are quite laudable aims. We believe that a contingent of New Zealand police will be able to contribute to restoring that part of law and order in the Solomons. But Minister Phil Goff could not help getting carried away. He is also setting out to rebuild the social system that has broken down. Now again the Parliament needs an explanation. We have a role for the 40 police, and we have an implied role for the 200 armed soldiers to back up those police. But is either of those groups capable of rebuilding the social system? What does the Government mean by that? This sounds a lot like nation rebuilding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edb1ee0545ed41bdb32f94eaa6552574\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a pretty good thing to do when the nation has collapsed!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1674db5e7914052a7a4636216e07ab5\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is a pretty good thing to do. But will the Government explain just what role for combat and aggression there will be? The problem in the Solomons is not just about a few criminals breaking windows and taking the odd potshot. The problem in the Solomons is a fundamental breakdown of government\u2014as the Minister has said, a collapse of a State. Why? Is it just because the police force is not working? No, it is because there are underlying ethnic and historical tensions that run very, very deep in that community. To call them criminals\u2014well, of course they are criminals\u2014is a bit like saying one can fix Northern Ireland just by rounding up a few of the IRA criminals. That is what they thought they were going to do 30 years ago, only to find now that in Northern Ireland they are conducting political discussion with the IRA. The problems are very deep seated, and I am asking the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Minister of Defence, I think, a reasonable question. It is not a partisan matter. It is not a criticism. Simply, there is a need for the Parliament to know the purpose of the deployment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EHow will the police and the soldiers contribute to rebuilding a social system? What measures will New Zealand be taking on our behalf to deal with the fundamental underlying ethnic tensions in the Solomons? Because if those are not dealt with, then there is little hope that that State can be rebuilt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287ce56c87e6e4804a45a6e7f8152c80c\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What has that got to do with anything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0d4505092442d2b05b71c7d95d3abf\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it will take a quarter of an hour to explain it. I would also be interested in how long the Government believes that these New Zealand troops will be committed to the Solomons. If in fact the goal is to rebuild that State\u2014to put back together a shattered nation\u2014the troops will not be home by Christmas. This problem has been decades in the making. Our contribution to Bougainville, which now looks very simple by comparison with the situation in the Solomons, went on for 5 years. I would hope that the immediate objectives of the Australian and New Zealand Governments will be achieved, that law and order can be sufficiently restored so that we no longer need 1,500, or 1,700 armed troops from Australia and New Zealand in the Solomons, and that a process like the Bougainville process can be begun. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI have said that National supports this deployment\u2014and we do. We believe that Australia and New Zealand ought to be paying a great deal of attention to matters in our own region. I would note in passing the contrast between how Australia and how New Zealand are balancing their regional and global interests. Australia now has very minimal involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5050e2e977442b68aa528931f3db0bb\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s got a thousand people in the Middle East, for goodness\u2019 sake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270e88fae3340429bb03c6ecc0ce6c6d7\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it has a lot less involvement than it had. Proportionately, what troops are there are relatively small compared with Australia\u2019s resources. On the other hand, New Zealand in recent months has, with the full support of this side of the House, made significant redeployments to Afghanistan, to Iraq, and, now, to the Solomons. That of course underlines the original point I made\u2014that we do not live in a benign strategic environment. But it does raise this issue. These deployments are all likely to be lengthy, and there is now accumulating evidence that they are putting pressure on our defence forces. The effect of East Timor is still rolling through our defence forces. I understand that the Territorial Force has almost halved in number since the beginning of the deployment to East Timor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ca9def5188470f9a5afbaa7a0f4508\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: More than halved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234cd7868700041c59179d5cf8ba94b7e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Its numbers have more than halved to be under 2,000. We are clearly not sustaining our Territorial Force on the past deployments that we have made. The past deployments have been sufficient to exhaust the Territorial Force. The evidence is that with the shortages of personnel in the defence forces, those three major commitments are beyond the sustainable capacity of our defence forces. It is not that the defence forces cannot do the job they have been given in the short term, but, in the long term, it makes it very difficult for the current defence establishment to maintain its training, its skills, and its professional attitudes, as a modern professional army. I would be interested in hearing from the Minister of Defence about how he sees the impact of those major deployments on New Zealand\u2019s defence forces\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224ef32c8fbbb4d258883c098ff9f64c1\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: And on the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164bd442cb6741d092c99fab46cd38a1\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and on the police. I will just come to that. The Government cannot resist saying too much. The fact is that we have made a decision, out of our best impulses as New Zealanders, to send 30 police to the Solomons. Why does the Prime Minister not just own up to the fact that there will be 30 fewer police in New Zealand? Why do we get given all this stuff about how it will not make any difference, how the Government has a bottom line about policing in the community and what is needed there, and how the number could be trebled and it would not make any difference? There will be 30 fewer police, and all the Government has to do is to appeal to New Zealanders\u2019 better instincts and say: \u201CYes, we have decided that it is important that New Zealand makes a contribution to law and order in the Solomons, and, yes, that means fewer police in New Zealand.\u201D If we listen to the Government we get the impression that we will have 30 more officers in the Solomons, but no fewer in New Zealand. I am asking: \u201CWhy bother?\u201D, and \u201CWhy go to all that trouble?\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00223dc3d7aec80a4c1eb43b6dd7ea71121e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223dc3d7aec80a4c1eb43b6dd7ea71121e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the chance to debate this issue, but I have to say what a pathetic contribution that was from the Leader of the Opposition. I would like to hear one member of the Opposition tell this House one substantive point that Mr English made on this debate\u2014because he made no substantive points. First of all, could I begin where he ended\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d3d326d169e4943b9f74421c37a3a78\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I point out through you that the member on his feet is quite able to yield to me so that I can explain exactly the substantial points that the Leader of the Opposition is making, because it is clear the Minister missed them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201270c1e1a96498eb540391f498d751f\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271be91fe0d3e43e7a29bdf380d29a051\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Let me start where the Leader of the Opposition ended\u2014discussing the question of police. He said that sending 30 police was not affordable and that we cannot do it. I ask that member why it is that in the last year of his Government the police numbers went down, but does he not know that there are now 700 serving police officers more in this country than when he lost office? Those are police figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d44cb060cf4d148db5d433535e0d51\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222775432f018f4f6bb7556d7bfa0b5b22\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If Dr Smith challenges the veracity of that, he could ask me to table it, and I will table it at the end of my speech, if he so desires. There are now 700 additional police officers, and, from somebody no less than the president of the Police Association, in the paper today, we had it said that this deployment makes good moral sense, and it makes good pragmatic sense. It is good for our members; there will be no shortage of volunteers. They will get invaluable training and experience, and they will come back better officers\u2014and they do. They do something for the Pacific and they come back to New Zealand with a better understanding and a better ability to police. There is no question about our ability to afford to make a commitment on that basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ENow, the big point that the Leader of the Opposition seemed to make was that this was not a police-led deployment, and so that was further evidence of division between New Zealand and Australia. Let me quote from the transcript of Alexander Downer, the Australian Foreign Minister, standing as far away from me as the Hon Annette King is at the moment. He said: \u201CThis is not, in principle, a military operation. We feel though\u2014and the police feel very much\u2014that they need the reassurance of armed peacekeepers on the ground as well.\u201D\u2014and of course, that is right. He ends up by saying: \u201CThis is essentially a police operation with a guarantee of security from armed peacekeepers; this isn\u2019t a military operation.\u201D So the main point made by the Leader of the Opposition added up to nothing, because as usual in this House, he is speaking from ignorance. Time and again in the course of this debate, he demonstrated his ignorance on this issue. He would have been better not to call for the debate at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis is a very important decision that Cabinet will shortly be making, and that the House at the moment has the opportunity to debate\u2014but I have no doubt that the right thing for New Zealand to do is to join with the consensus in the Pacific Islands Forum countries, to make a contribution at the request of a small neighbour and fellow member of the forum, and to respond to its request at its time of need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt was significant yesterday that 16 countries of the Pacific Islands Forum came together to hear at first hand a request from the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Solomon Islands about their need for help. It was hugely significant that the response from the Pacific Islands Forum was unanimous. Every country pledged itself to support in principle and, where it could, in practice, the needs of the Solomon Islands. As the Minister from the Solomon Islands said: \u201CThis is not a case of our sovereignty being under challenge by inviting people in to help us from outside. This is a request from a sovereign Government.\u201D He could have added that if sovereignty has been lost from the Solomon Islands at all, it has been lost because the men with the guns have usurped the authority of the democratically elected Government to the point where that Government cannot govern at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESitting behind the Minister of Foreign Affairs from the Solomon Islands was the Prime Minister\u2019s principal adviser. He has a bullet wound to his stomach from an assassination attempt. Sir Fred Soaki, the former Police Commissioner in the Solomon Islands, was assassinated. They know who did it. They arrested the person who did it. He could not be contained, because there is no justice or prison system to carry out those functions, and he is at large. This is a country where, when money is in its Budget, armed thugs will surround the Cabinet room and demand compensation payments\u2014demands that have to be met by members of the Government at the threat of their lives. This is a country where the rule of law has so broken down that Harold Keke, on the Weathercoast of the island of Guadalcanal, can rage, murdering more than 50 people, burning houses and villages, holding people to ransom, and torturing people\u2014and the Solomon Islands cannot do anything about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThat is terrorism in our backyard. We as a country cannot afford to allow a small neighbour to suffer from this condition, and to continue to deteriorate further to the point of being a failed State. We cannot afford that, because, as we know from Afghanistan, a failed State very quickly becomes a haven for drug smugglers, arms traffickers, people-smugglers\u2014and, potentially, terrorism. The regional security and stability situation in the Pacific is such that we cannot allow the example of people who choose to arm themselves, to extort and terrorise money out of a Government and individuals\u2014yet that is what has been happening in the Solomon Islands for too long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAnother point the Leader of the Opposition got absolutely wrong was to describe the current situation as the result of ethnic conflict. There was ethnic conflict\u2014very bad ethnic conflict\u2014in the Solomon Islands, between the Malaitan people and the people of Guadalcanal, a conflict so bad that 20,000 people were effectively ethnically cleansed out of the island of Guadalcanal back to their home islands. That problem, however, was predominantly resolved by the Townsville peace agreement, and the international peace monitoring team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c881e56b17d4f4e9f277b451625a057\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296ee62107b0d4c0496e1c43d76fffa2e\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The member might say that it is not true, but that is what the Minister of Foreign Affairs from the Solomon Islands says; that is what the scoping mission we sent up there said; that is what the eminent persons group that went up there said; and I think that for once the National Party, if it wants to make a positive contribution to a debate, ought to do its homework. It ought to seek a briefing from me\u2014which I would gladly give it\u2014because time and again I hear ignorance from the Opposition, and that is why it is on 21 percent in the polls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe fact of the matter is that the problem is not, essentially, an ethnic problem at the moment. The problem is a problem of people who are ex-militants using their weapons to intimidate, to extort money, and to prevent the Government of the Solomon Islands carrying out the basic functions of governance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOne of the problems that that leads to is that the economy in the Solomon Islands is near to collapse. The banks were all closed at one point because the thugs were extorting money out of them. People will not invest in the Solomon Islands. Why would anyone invest there, when there is no rule of law? The Gold Ridge Mine, which provided 25 percent of the gross domestic product of that country, has been closed for several years. Solomon Islands Plantation Ltd, the palm-oil plantation that was once a major provider of employment, has been closed. Obviously, before that country can get back on its feet economically, it needs the restoration of the rule of law. The lack of the rule of law, and the collapse of the economy, mean that basic social services now cannot be provided by the Solomon Islands Government to its people, and that is why I said we are there to help it rebuild its social system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ERestoring the rule of law is also a means to an end, the end being the well-being of the people of that country. When special constables who do not turn up to work get paid, but they refuse to pay the teachers, the doctors, and the nurses, and when women go to the hospital in Honiara to have babies and find there are no medical staff there to help deliver a child, it is time for the region to come to the assistance of that country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E We have tried a number of different ways to help. We currently have police officers in the Solomon Islands. We have a significant aid programme to the Solomon Islands. All of that has been helpful, but it has not essentially turned conditions around in that country. To make real change and to avoid the situation of aid going in but no progress being made, we have to tackle the question of the rule of law, which is why New Zealand willingly joins in the Pacific consensus that states that there should be a police-led deployment backed by armed peacekeepers. It should be backed by armed peacekeepers, because police go in, essentially, to do a policing task. The military cannot do the task that the police are trained to do. It is a specialist task. But our police officers, and police officers from Australia, Samoa, Fiji, Papua New Guinea, and other countries, would be under threat unless we had a back-up of armed peacekeepers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EHopefully, those peacekeepers will not be required. The general sense coming out of Honiara at the moment is that the thugs who find it so easy to extort and intimidate individuals, because they have the guns, will be somewhat less courageous when confronted with an armed and disciplined force backing up a police force that will do its job and ensure that the corrupt and criminal elements in society are dealt with\u2014as a country would normally do\u2014through effective justice and corrections systems. We need the police there, and we need the armed peacekeepers as a guarantee. It would be irresponsible to put police officers in there without the protection and without the clear message to those criminal elements that if they pick up a gun and fire it, the people they are firing at will be in a position to retaliate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESo we need the police and we need the armed forces, but beyond that, we have to work with the Government of the Solomon Islands to rebuild the system. The police officers cannot do their job unless there is a justice system that can hear the charges against those people who are the criminal elements, try them, and, where they are found guilty, convict them. The justice system cannot work unless there is a functioning prison, and the major prison was three-quarters built before the money ran out. Therefore, that facility is not available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe must, as well, work with the Solomon Islands Government to build a capacity to better manage the economy and to be able to provide the basic social services that are so badly needed. The 16 Ministers, including five heads of State, who came together in Australia yesterday unanimously agreed to make that effort, and New Zealand will no doubt play its full role in assisting that effort, just as we have assisted the Solomon Islands over many years. This country and the Pacific Islands Forum will not stand by while that State collapses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFinally, there is a question about whether this action has multilateral support. The Leader of the Opposition put out a press statement accusing us of hypocrisy because we were acting without the support of the United Nations. We have approached the United Nations and, again contradicting what the Leader of the Opposition says, the United Nations Department of Political Affairs is fully supportive of a regional initiative at the request of a sovereign country for assistance. So, too, is the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth itself will do what it can to assist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWe are left with the situation that everybody is in favour of acting. Even the Opposition says that it is in favour but it tries to pick holes in the effort. Its members try to undermine the efforts of their country instead of acting in a bipartisan, constructive, and sensible way. As long as they continue to do that, it is they who will be made the fools, and they who will seem to be the people who are not getting alongside what this Government is doing, and will do, in a constructive way, the right thing for the Solomon Islands and for the Pacific. I urge every member of every party of this country to support the Government in its endeavours, and I am more than willing to brief any party in the House on what we are doing, why we are doing it, and how we are doing it, in order to prevent the sort of pathetic ignorance that we heard from the Leader of the Opposition in his opening speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c1ce981b6aa4ba5bb2d23735b0f3432\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002270757cf85e8e4fbaa39519c7340c551d\u0022\u003EMinisterial Statements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221624825a3f074e71a204027e2a5e15a3\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise to the member for raising a point of order, but I do so on a matter that is very important. Standing Order 341, \u201CMinisterial statements\u201D, states that a matter of significant public importance can be brought to the House\u2019s attention immediately by a Minister. I have been asked to go to a meeting at 4 p.m. and I now find, from the media, that the Government has put out a major statement today stating that our whole basis for immigration has been altered\u2014we have gone from a points system to a skills-based system\u2014and that MPs will be briefed at 4 p.m. Madam Speaker, you understand exactly the significance of what the Government has done. It has decided to put out a statement too late for the asking of parliamentary questions and will then allow us to go into urgency. Our immigration policy has been turned on its head, and the media has been told about it, yet we members of Parliament get a briefing after the media. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI want to draw to your attention that Speakers in the British House of Commons\u2014and this will make you a Speaker that the Opposition will like\u2014have, in the strongest terms, condemned that sort of action by the Government. Speakers there have ruled that Ministers should make those announcements to the House first, and then to the nation. Now we are in a situation whereby the Government puts out a statement that we cannot scrutinise, and on which we cannot have any parliamentary discussion, since we are all going into urgency. I want you to suggest that the proper thing for the Minister of Immigration to do is to come down to the House, take a call under Standing Order 341, and, important as this debate is, interrupt it and let us know\u2014as she has apparently been able to tell the media\u2014that our immigration system has been turned on its head this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002248c98dba1a89455ca9610478c18620ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248c98dba1a89455ca9610478c18620ed\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The critical point in Standing Order 341(1) is that a Minister may make a statement. It is entirely for the Minister to decide to come to the House, take a call, and make a statement when and if a Minister chooses to do so. It is not for the House to call a Minister down to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022735b9a46c7594d0baebba1aaf525f8b4\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member and I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 19/1 (Supplement), which states: \u201CWhile it is eminently good practice for Ministers to make important policy announcements in the House, it is not by any means a convention in New Zealand.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022efd00845de1144c38730d95efaad2510\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a373c5f1d5d465a904b1fabab956d4d\u0022\u003ESolomon Islands\u2014Deployment of Police and Military Forces \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000266\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c55de751813747bba069e8d78aada7bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c55de751813747bba069e8d78aada7bc\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have one thing only to say to the Government, which is that if there is any substance to such a press release, it should deal with such a matter the same way we would: \u201CCan we fix it? Yes we can.\u201D\u2014and we are doing it every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI come now to the debate on the Solomons. I do not think there is anyone in any party in the House who will deny that there is a need for New Zealand to be involved in the Solomons, given that the Solomons is a part of our Pacific backyard, and given the problems that face the people of the Solomons. I do not know whether any members of this House have friends who have tried to live and work, or do business, in the Solomons, but it is no secret that the rule of law was lost there many years ago. The only thing I ask is that if the Government is so concerned about human rights, why has it taken it so long to do something positive in the Solomons? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut there is a greater question that the Government cannot be allowed to duck and dive away from, and that is this. We agree with the purpose of that deployment; we now know that the Government is committing 30 to 40 police to the Solomons, and some 100 to 200 Defence Force personnel in the role of protecting those police. We also know from history, and from knowing our Defence Force personnel and our police very well, that, first, there will be no shortage of volunteers to go, and, second, that when they get there, they will do a superb job. But there is a price and cost to New Zealand for that deployment, and one cannot ignore it. Looking at that price and cost, one has to ask oneself where this Government\u2019s priorities are. The cost to the House is the rule of law here in New Zealand. We already know from the documents presented to us that the Minister of Police has told this Government that he does not have enough police to do the work he is trying to do. We know that he specifically asked for more police to deal with counter-terrorist issues, and that this Government\u2019s response to his request for 169 police officers was to cut the Minister back to 55 over 4 years and tell him to get on with the job. Hello! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOn top of that, we found out over the weekend that the Government now wants the commissioner to take some of his best, most experienced police\u2014who should be back here guiding, steering, and mentoring the young rookies on the beat\u2014and send them off to the Solomon Islands. We have heard the public complain ad nauseam about their frustration at their inability to get police to attend crime scenes\u2014it is in every paper, every day. This Government blithely ignores that, and once again commits the stretched, overworked, stressed-out policemen and women on our beats to another task. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is the same with the Defence Force. Despite assurances that there were no such papers\u2014and we will deal with that in another arena\u2014we have papers here that say that the Army, Navy, and Air Force have black holes in their organisations. But do we listen to that? No. In search of political kudos and a good issue that will take the Government off the front pages in areas where it is doing appallingly, we get ourselves involved in another deployment. We are sending off another 100 to 200 Defence Force personnel, ignoring the fact that the Chief of Defence Force has told his Minister that he is understaffed and overstretched, that people are being employed in roles above their level of ability and responsibility, and that they are suffering stress and burnout. Is that not ironic coming from this Government? This Government is going to legislate to deal with bad employers who stress out and overwork their staff. It has been proud of its occupational safety and health legislation, talking about overuse and burnout, yet it continually ignores the advice of its own officials and heads of department, who say that the very same thing is happening in the police force and the Defence Force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIf we want to commit ourselves to our own backyard in the Pacific, and deal with the law and order and security issues that face us, then given the current shortages of Defence Force and police personnel, surely the Government should be reassessing its priorities and commitments elsewhere. It should be asking itself whether we serve a purpose that is any longer worth serving in the Sinai. Can we afford to send 60 engineers to Iraq? Can we afford to be involved in peacekeeping activities beyond the Pacific, when we cannot even meet our needs back home? It is not the rule of law in the Solomons that people in west Auckland, Manukau, and the Rotorua shopping centre are worried about; it is the rule of law and order here in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThat rule of law has fallen down around our ears, because this Government will not accept two simple facts. Fact one: it has a huge surplus, which it boasts is the biggest in the history of this nation. Fact two: we are understaffed in police and defence. New Zealand First has made it very clear that it believes it is necessary to double the size of the police force to meet current workloads and the internal security needs of New Zealand, but this Government will not even give the Commissioner of Police another 169 officers. This Government will be responsible for doing to its own employees the very thing its socialist Ministers say that private enterprise is doing to its employees. There is a word for that; we are not allowed to use it in the House, but it is relevant all the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe sad tragedy of it is that our defence and police forces will go out there, bind things together, and do the very best they can. They will perform admirably, while their families back home get broken up. Here in New Zealand, the families of staff who are required to pick up the extra workload because this Government will not give the Defence Force and the police force the extra personnel they need will get broken up, and this Government just does not want to know. How many more official papers do we have to read from the Defence Force and the police asking for more staff and an increase in baselines before this Government actually does something? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First reminds the Government that in the Inquiry into Defence Beyond 2000 it signed up to four full-strength rifle companies per battalion. Has it moved to meet that? No. Currently, our army would be lucky to scrape up one and a half to two rifle companies on a very good day, and the Minister knows that. It is all very well to trumpet Inquiry into Defence Beyond 2000 when it suits him, but on staffing levels, he blithely ignores it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI give the Government marks for doing something in the Solomons, but it should have done something months ago. It should admit that there is a need to restore law and order on its own streets\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256d04f3835824c3baff2204ed6262232\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: The member has never yet asked a question on it in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f0f62a065504eed838d5698b61f77a6\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: There goes the Minister of Justice\u2014the man who gives us home detention detainees like that cretin I talked about. Do members remember that that Minister used to call all crims \u201Cscumbags\u201D? Well, there is a new term, which is \u201Cscunter\u201D, and the people he is letting out on home detention are an absolute abomination on the State. He should think about his faulty and flawed sentencing and parole legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe Minister does not care about the work the Defence Force does. He does not care about the stress and overwork that exists now inside the police force; he just wants to look good on the international stage, saying: \u201CNew Zealand will be in there\u2014we will give more police, and we don\u2019t care what Robbie Robinson says.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e71b87b42f49afb0b3831305063409\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member against that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a514a3294b69482eab0cc40b1246dd74\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Come on, Minister! Does the Chair want to give me an extension of time? She should tell him to sit down and shut up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe Minister should look after his police force and Defence Force. He should not go out in the international community seeking photo opportunities and feel-good moments for himself at the expense of the good men and women who are here to provide security back at home. He should give them the staffing they need. Right now, this Government is stretching the personnel rubber band so thinly that when it breaks there will be repercussions inside the Defence Force. The Minister has the papers here that say that the Defence Force is suffering stress and burnout\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. From the running barrages, I know it is hurting the Minister, but running barrages are not permitted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis Minister\u2014along with the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Police, but primarily the Prime Minister\u2014is big on representing the rights of workers, but where are those rights for the police force? Government Ministers do not give a rat\u2019s about the police force. The Commissioner of Police simply asked for 169 extra officers over 3 years\u2014that is all he asked for. I think he totally undershot it, but, as he has publicly said, there is no sense in asking for what one really needs, because one knows one is not going to get it; one has to ask for something that is realistic. He should have added \u201Cin the eyes of the Government\u201D, because that is what he meant. Fine, commit, but tell me now\u2014how long can we sustain that commitment, given the current problems inside our forces?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002214a6f3f7a9ed419ca44b52b9c29877a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002214a6f3f7a9ed419ca44b52b9c29877a7\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E First, let me say that, in principle, the ACT party is in favour of the proposal, but we will obviously reserve our position until we have looked at some of the details. The reason I say that is that the House knows I have a connection to the Solomons. My wife comes from the Solomons, and has been the honorary consul for a number of years, and I have spent some time in the Solomons. I was in the Solomons during the uprising, and I was actually in the first plane to arrive there after the Townsville peace agreement. I went up to the various barricades and spoke to some of the \u201Crascals\u201D\u2014somewhat to the horror of the New Zealand diplomatic community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795e4c46d9084430939e1ceebe6f2497\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what the \u201Crascals\u201D were saying about you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3c8655cb2f4da48889597fd13b602f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Probably. Does the member think they recognised a kindred spirit? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EFirstly, let me make a few comments about the situation there, and not in an \u201CI told you so\u201D way. I told the previous National Government, and then the Labour Government, that the various measures that were being taken would not work, and that the only way we would be able to restore things in the Solomons would be to send some real police with the ability to arrest criminals\u2014and, yes, because the criminals had some high-powered weapons, I said that the police had better be armed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E The House should also realise that this request from the Solomons Government is not a new one. Bartholomew Ulufa\u2019alu, who was the Prime Minister of the Solomons when the real unrest started and was really replaced by a police coup, had himself made a request for police to Australia and New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f2158d2e81e4c1fabc500aea3293eab\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Had he?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245c2e3f52dae4ce4b70da47cac5b28e0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he said he wanted 200. I do not know whether he needed 200, but he said that he wanted 200. He said: \u201CIf you don\u2019t give them to me, there\u2019s going to be a coup by our police force\u201D, and there was. That was the Malaita Eagle Force, and things in the Solomons got worse. Basically, Honiara became a Malaitan town surrounded by the people of Guadalcanal, who, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade correctly said, did their own ethnic cleansing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHow bad are things at the moment? In some ways, they are not as bad as people say. I have been up there this year and personally have never felt under any threat. I have walked around Honiara and been in various parts of Guadalcanal, but then I am obviously an expat. If one talks to the Solomons Islands people themselves, in many ways things have improved, but in other ways things are awful. They are so bad because law and order really fails in a country when the police cannot be relied upon. While there are many good policemen in the Solomons Islands, I am afraid there are some very bad ones, and some who are criminals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade mentions, as he did in the media, that shots were fired at the Prime Minister\u2019s residence, most people think that the shots were fired by the police. The Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade said that the militants demanded money, but the militants who demanded money just before Christmas were actually police officers. The commissioner turned up and said to the Minister of Finance: \u201CIf you don\u2019t give me all the money the Government\u2019s got\u201D\u2014and that is not a lot, because it is a very poor country\u2014\u201Cthe police can\u2019t guarantee that Honiara won\u2019t be burnt down today.\u201D What would one do if one was the Minister of Finance and in that position? Basically, the Cabinet was locked up until he was prepared to walk down to the Solomons Islands Reserve Bank and empty the vault. That money went to the police in so-called bonus payments. No, there is another name for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5bba2eec68942f3837d302dc4c74412\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Allowances!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224331842aa32e42fea7cfc4d6a7544250\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, so-called allowances. I am obliged to the Minister. After the Townsville settlement, various militants, in collusion, had emptied the police armouries and got guns. They came up with the idea that the thing to do with these militants was to make them members of the police. They made them special policemen, but that did not stop them being criminals; it did not stop them robbing. Indeed, all it did was to put them on the payroll. The Solomons Islands Government now has this huge number of police and special police\u2014so many that its tax base cannot afford it. Money that ought to be going to pay for nurses, teachers, and the like, is going to these so-called special constables. They have made a number of attempts to try to stop this system, but have been unable to do so, because the police feel that they cannot. That is why we need the numbers. We now have a British police commissioner, but he reports that he cannot restore law and order until he has a number of reliable policemen. In that respect, it is mainly a policing problem, but those police need some protection from the army. I suspect that it will be the army that will have to go after Harold Keke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI heard Mr Locke say, and I am not criticising him, that these are just a few desperate people. Mr Keke has killed about 50 people. The Weathercoast of the Solomons is total jungle. If people walk into that jungle, they are in darkness. People have no idea where they are going. During World War II, the Americans and the Japanese landed troops in that jungle, and the whole army was lost. They knew that the other enemy was 3 kilometres away, but they could not find each other, even when they were trying to. People should not underestimate the difficulties of trying to catch Mr Keke and his group. That is their home, and that is what they know about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe Solomons is in the bottom ten nations of the world in terms of wealth. It is a truly very poor nation, but it has great potential. The Gold Ridge Mine is a rich mine. It is only a few kilometres from Honiara, but has not been able to be reopened. That mine used to provide 25 percent of the Government\u2019s revenues. The palm plantations that the Minister referred to are within a few kilometres of Honiara, as well, and palm prices have been good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHowever, I want to say to the House\u2014I made the comment somewhat frivolously during question time, but I mean it quite sincerely\u2014that I think the ethnic problems of the Solomons are real. It is very hard, for example, to arrest somebody from one\u2019s own tribe. I have been in a situation where I was trying to pay customs duties, and the officer would not accept it. I was told that I was causing huge embarrassment because he came from my wife\u2019s \u201Conetalk\u201D. Can members imagine what it is like for a policeman to be asked to arrest someone from his own \u201Conetalk\u201D? People there find it difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EA State like the Solomons will need assistance. I do not like the idea of sending New Zealand police there for ever. We have brought 74 British police over to New Zealand, and the idea of hiring some Brits permanently is a good one. They ran the place for 100 years, and did it with about 20 policemen. There is a need for a few people who are seen by everyone in the Solomons to be independent. I know that contradicts our notions of nationality, and the like, but we are hung up by our own political correctness. If we had acknowledged the real problem 5 years ago, then a lot of Solomons Islanders would not have lost their lives, the State would not have collapsed, and we would not be in the position of asking the taxpayers of New Zealand for the amount of money that we are asking them for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say sincerely that we ought to look at that as a long-term solution. The Solomon Islands has a British commissioner at the moment, but he will need at least 20 officers for the foreseeable future. It would be far better to pay them for doing that than taking police from our streets in south Auckland. We would be in trouble as a Parliament if we sent New Zealand police to the Solomon Islands long term. I make that suggestion, but given the position we are in, the actions that the Minister is taking are the right ones. He is entitled to ask this House for support, and he has it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00223ad0b50d7a2d474495413a4c601816a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ad0b50d7a2d474495413a4c601816a8\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party supports our police going to help the Solomon Islands people to move to a situation where the rule of law applies, and we support what our police force has done so far. I understand that about 10 New Zealand police are there now, and that that will expand to perhaps 30 or 40 under the arrangements. We are very grateful to those police who will go on this operation for what they will do, and for the sacrifices they will make. The Green Party wishes them well in their work over there. The critical element in determining how we see such an operation is what the people of the country itself want. So far it seems that the people of the Solomon Islands, from the Prime Minister Sir Allan Kemakeza down, want to have a contribution of this sort. But, of course, we have to keep monitoring that, because we want to make sure that as we go through this exercise it is always with the support of the Solomon Islands people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI am a bit concerned about some of the Australian Government\u2019s comments, which almost determine in advance that this will be an operation that will last for years, when the aim should obviously be to help, through this process, to boost the confidence and ability of the Solomon Islands people to get their own society on track. Our aim should be to complete the operation in the shortest possible time frame. It is good that the Pacific Island leaders, who met yesterday, endorse this operation. I hope that they will make a contribution to it, because sometimes Australia and New Zealand are seen as the bigger, white members of the Pacific nations, although of course the New Zealand contribution to such operations usually has a strong M\u0101ori and Pacific Island dimension. However, it will be good if other Pacific Island countries are involved in the Solomons, alongside Australia and New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEssentially, as the Minister has explained, this is a policing operation against criminal elements, and there is a need for an armed back-up of military components to support those police, given the situation that has been outlined by other speakers in this debate. But I am still concerned at the number of military personnel envisaged\u20141,500 Australians, and a total force of 2,000. I take the point that Richard Prebble has made, but I do not think it requires a force of that size to indicate to the criminal elements that there is a seriousness about this operation. It is not like the East Timor commitment where, because there was organised backing from West Timor in support of the militias that went into East Timor as organised forces, we needed to have more systematic patrolling than will be the case in the Solomons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI take up the point that Bill English and Ron Mark have made: can our armed forces stand this contribution? I think there is an easy solution to their concerns, and that is not to send the 60 or 100 troops to Afghanistan as planned, where they will be involved in a dirty war, essentially defending one set of warlord factions against others. That will be a dirty war, in the sense that any prisoners we capture in Afghanistan will be handed over to the United States and held in places like Guantanamo Bay, where the rule of law does not apply and people are mistreated, etc. Rather than getting involved in a dirty war in Afghanistan, as the Government is planning to do, it should concentrate our forces on peacekeeping, which we have gained good experience in through our Bougainville and East Timor commitments. We are developing a speciality in peacekeeping with regard to both our military and our police. I think the nation is proud of what we have achieved in peacekeeping, and will be proud of what we can achieve in that role in the Solomon Islands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI want to go back to the origin of the problem there. I think, to a large extent, it is the result of overseas interests, such as Malaysian logging interests, corrupting the political system to their own ends. Ten years ago there was a big debate in the Solomon Islands about that. The present Prime Minister was forestry Minister at that time, and there was much criticism of him for allowing Malaysian logging companies to clear-fell much of the Solomons, with little taxation, duties, or anything like that applying to them. A couple of years later, in 1995, an anti-logging activist was murdered and seven Government Ministers were charged with accepting bribes. So outside interests were fostering corruption, and we must put that problem on top of the economic problems that developed around the time of the Asian economic crisis. The growing unemployment at that time was exaggerated by the International Monetary Fund\u2019s prescriptions that the Solomon Islands should cut the public sector. The resulting social crisis allowed the more corrupt element in the political system to use factional differences to foster ethnic differences and conflict between Malaitan people and those from Guadalcanal, in furtherance of their own narrow political interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe problem of corruption continued through to the year 2001. Sir Allan Kemakeza was dismissed then as Deputy Prime Minister. He was charged with taking hundreds of thousands of dollars for himself and his family. The former finance Minister, Snyder Rini, was dismissed because he had given undue remissions of duties to forestry companies. So there was that continuing problem of corruption, and a very bad economic situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, there is another contributing factor. I do not think Australia and New Zealand have provided sufficient aid to the Solomons over the years. We have, of course, had an aid programme to the Solomons, and currently we give $8 million in aid. It is very good that the Government has announced that part of our response to the Solomons crisis will be a doubling of that aid. That will catch up on some of the shortfalls in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EHowever, I am not sure whether we need to have 2,000 military people in this force. I think we have to be concerned that we could have too much overkill, in terms of military intervention. I am not really concerned about the New Zealand troops operating in an insensitive way, because they have a very good record internationally\u2014a better record, probably, than the Australians. But I think we have to learn, for instance, from what is happening in Iraq today, with the US getting off side with the people. I am not making a direct parallel here, because our peacekeeping force in the Solomons will not be an occupation force, as is the US force in Iraq. But we do have to be mindful of the problems that could develop if we do not handle the situation sensitively, or if there is a bit of overkill in our response. We could draw hostility from the local population, which could make the situation worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhat we want to do\u2014and I think Bill English was right\u2014is to move as fast as possible to continue the process that began at Townsville in the year 2000 of trying to get the civil society and the various parties back together. We need to work with the politicians and the civil society. There are groups like the Civil Society Network in the Solomons that are trying to draw things together. One of the problems with the political system there is that it is a first-past-the-post system. I think one of the MPs is there on 13 percent of the vote, so it is an inappropriate political system. We need to work with the civil society, and also to resist the temptation to dominate the country too much. I have heard reports from Australia that it will put various Australians in the different ministries for the long term. I think we have to be a bit wary about being seen to dominate the Solomons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think another lesson we can draw from this situation is that we should watch for problems in the Pacific and give support at an early time. For instance, we tend to ignore another Melanesian nation, West Papua, when ignoring what is happening to its people may can come back to haunt us. We should support the rights of those people against the Indonesian occupation, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Greens support this peacekeeping force, as do our colleagues the Australian Greens on other side of the Tasman. We are very pleased that they are putting their support behind this force, because something that the Greens as a whole, internationally, have put forward is that we should really concentrate on peacemaking, trying to bring parties together, and trying to resolve situations in other countries in as peaceful a manner as possible, but backed up with policing and peacekeeping forces where required. I think we need to specialise in that area. One of the Green Party\u2019s proposals is to set up a peacekeeping school in New Zealand, and there are some ongoing discussions with the Government on how to progress that. I think such a school would increase our ability to do this peacekeeping work, and to be able to work with other police and military personnel in our region towards resolving situations like the one we see in the Solomon Islands today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab11a16787f45c58c360689f057bb02\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future): \u003C/span\u003EThe litany of the history of the Solomons from the time of the start of the struggle between the Malaitan people and the people of Guadalcanal has been well canvassed this afternoon. This is not really the time for us to enter into a debate about the rights and wrongs of what happened when, and who did what to whom. It is time for us simply to recognise that that country is on the point of economic and social collapse, that it is in our region, our part of the world, and that it is in the sphere of influence we may claim as our own. The question then becomes this: what role, if any, should we, as a sovereign nation with a history of seeking to uphold good Government in our own country and elsewhere, play in response to that situation? That is the background, I believe, against which the House debates this matter this afternoon. May I note in passing the appropriateness of this debate today, at this time, given that when a similar debate was sought in 2000 it was ruled that it could not occur until such time as an intervention took place. On that basis, we would not have debated World War II until the first shot was fired. It is appropriate that we debate this issue in the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E This debate immediately raises the question of the status of New Zealand\u2019s decision. If one listened to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade in question time this afternoon, one heard there has actually been no decision by the New Zealand Government at this stage. There has been an indication, in principle, given at the Foreign Ministers meeting in Sydney yesterday, of the type of commitment that New Zealand may make in response to an invitation from the Parliament of the Solomon Islands. However, I was struck by the fact that this afternoon the Minister said, in response to my question, that the New Zealand Cabinet has not yet decided formally on its position. The first step to be taken is that the decision in principle made yesterday in the context of the Foreign Ministers meeting in Sydney obviously needs to be considered by the New Zealand Cabinet and endorsed, and then we await the invitation from the Parliament of the Solomon Islands, which, from memory, is due on about 7 or 8 July, before the deployment can even begin. People who may fear there is a rush to judgment going on here should bear that time frame in mind. There will not be a precipitate deployment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe next issue that arises is the nature of the deployment itself. Arguments have been raised in the House this afternoon about whether we can afford\u2014if we are sending 30 police officers and a couple of hundred military personnel to support them\u2014such a level of deployment, given some of the pressures at home. I think that is a very reasonable question. I for one am not convinced that we can give satisfactory answers to it at this stage. I know in my own electorate\u2014and I do not want to dwell on this unduly\u2014there are problems with community policing. One the one hand it will be difficult to tell people to endure their problems, while on the other we are sending police to sort out the difficulties in the Solomons. There are matters relating to the level of recruitment for the armed forces at the moment, both in terms of the regular forces and the territorial forces. Those issues will come back into play as a result of a decision that may be made to send a force to the Solomons. But I say that, important though those considerations are\u2014and they should not be overlooked\u2014in my view, they are not of themselves reasons for New Zealand not to seek to play a role. They are excuses that can be offered as to why we should not play a role, but they are not reasons that we should not play a role, if we value our role as a good, international citizen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIf I may hark back to the debate this House held a couple of months ago regarding Iraq\u2014and I am not trying to make a political point here, so no member should assume that I am\u2014at that time the debate was over whether New Zealand should play a role in that conflict because, as a good international citizen, it was its responsibility to do so. The counter-argument was raised that that event was some considerable distance away from New Zealand, and that we had limited supply lines and difficulties in meeting those needs, etc. I think all those arguments become more difficult to sustain in respect of something that is going on in our own region. That is why I think it is appropriate for New Zealand to give support to a prospective deployment to the Solomons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut there are some bigger issues here. Mr Prebble alluded to some of them, and they require some expansion. This is not just an issue about the impenetrability of jungle, or about warlords, or about the breakdown of law and order. Important though those things are, this is an issue about the lack of economic viability of many small Pacific States, and about that lack of viability giving rise to the instability that we see exemplified in the Solomons, but by no means isolated to that country. It is a chilling fact that over the last 30 years some $50 billion in cumulative overseas aid has been pumped into the Island States in the Pacific, yet their net positive economic growth rate in that time has been around 1 percent. There are lessons for all of us in respect of that process. If we want to uplift the standard of living, and to promote the level of democracy and security, then very clearly the developed world has to do much better than has been its record to date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWe also need to look at our processes of engagement. In this particular instance, the potential decision has arisen out of an initiative by the Foreign Ministers of the Pacific Islands Forum, meeting, it would appear, under the joint convenorship of our Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Australian Foreign Minister in Sydney yesterday. That initiative is to be applauded, but it is essentially an ad hoc one. There is the Biketawa Declaration, and there are the processes of the Pacific Islands Forum. They need to be refined more thoroughly in order to ensure that we can become involved in situations as they develop, and not very much as an ad hoc afterthought, as I think is potentially the case at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWhen the New Zealand Government does make a decision, it is important that those who are deployed to the Solomons go with the knowledge that the Parliament and people of this country support them. As I have said on the occasion of other such deployments, they go not as the representatives of a particular Government but as the representatives of the people of New Zealand, and therefore they are entitled to know that when they go they have the support of the people of New Zealand. They will go into what will be very difficult and stressful circumstances in the Solomons, and I do not imagine that any member of this House would willingly trade places with any of those forces to be so deployed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EOn behalf of United Future, I say that like other parties we join in supporting the intention for New Zealand to play a role in attempting to restore law and order to the Solomons. We recognise the huge difficulties that that of itself involves, but we acknowledge also that this deployment is only part of a wider process to put in place better ways for the States of the South-west Pacific to work collaboratively and constructively together, so as to ensure that in our sphere of influence the rising arc of instability that has been occurring in recent times can be diminished, and the collective peace and security of all of us can be ensured.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002238633640dbc5495d8eee8245900a5043\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238633640dbc5495d8eee8245900a5043\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E It is a rare occasion when the entire House\u2014certainly, it must be the first time in my experience\u2014supports a deployment. Not a single party has said that this deployment should not take place. However, serious questions have been asked across the House by National, New Zealand First, the Greens, ACT, and United Future. Through the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Government has chosen not to answer those serious questions\u2014not to address them properly. I hope that the Minister of Defence will deal with them seriously and not in a partisan fashion, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe National Party and I have been saying for many months\u2014in fact, years\u2014that we needed to take a closer look at the serious problems emerging in the Solomon Islands, which have many of the characteristics of the inter-tribal disputes that occurred in Bougainville. In Bougainville there was a dual-track process: bringing the parties together to deal with the very deep issues between them, and providing a surety around law and order and the building of stability in civil society. The question raised by National in this particular case is whether we have taken a too one-sided approach. Certainly, we recognise the need to restore stability in the Solomon Islands, and obviously that is the reason for both the defence forces and the police being deployed. But it would be wrong for us to pretend that that is the totality of the situation. I believe the Government has too often minimised the broader issue, and has focused largely on the law and order issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E Certainly, it is easy to refer to corruption in the police. The fact is that the Solomon Islands police are part of the problem, rather than the solution; they have raided the Treasury and helped to be part of the destructive force. People who are now referred to as ex-militants are the very same people\u2014or at least their representatives are\u2014who were part of the political dialogue that occurred in Townsville in the year 2000. The reality is that people do not fundamentally change their character. People who admittedly commit serious criminal acts need to be brought under control, but nevertheless in their own fashion\u2014in much the same way that perhaps the IRA did\u2014they represent political interests within the Solomon Islands. The same thing happened in Bougainville. We have to deal with people almost simultaneously, both in a law and order situation\u2014hence the need for the troops and the police\u2014and also on the political level, notwithstanding that there is a democratically elected Government in the Solomons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Solomon Islands are a very good illustration of the tensions in the South Pacific between the processes of representative government, which we all support, overlaid on a tribal society. Although the Solomons, perhaps, from afar, look like a somewhat homogeneous Melanesian society, beneath that surface there is a whole series of competing tribal interests. We know they have had a difficult outcome in the past, and they have a continuing outcome today. The reality is that we do not get a total collapse in a society on a law and order or on an economic front, unless there are also quite deep ethnic issues involved, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe, on the Opposition side of the House, have asked\u2014I believe United Future also did ask\u2014the Government to look at those issues seriously. There will have to be more than one track involved in this intervention: the law and order track\u2014the defence track\u2014and also the building of civil society. Mr English posed that serious question to the Minister, but the Minister chose to simply dismiss it. That was a mistake. Unless the Government addresses that additional dimension as well, then there will be serious problems ahead. We know that is the case because we have tried to intervene in the past, unsuccessfully, over several years. A new way forward is needed. We cannot look at this issue purely on the basis of the defence and police forces alone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI now turn to two particular issues: first, the question of sustainability, which relates to the previous issue, and, second, the role of multilateralism in regional security, and that of the United Nations. The Government\u2019s desire to be a good citizen in the South Pacific is obviously to be applauded. We know that it is a region of instability, these days. It is not a benign strategic environment, and it does require our defence forces. At the same time we have deployments right through the Middle East. It has been noted in the New Zealand Herald, inaccurately, that there could be up to 579 defence personnel currently deployed. That is largely the Army component. On top of that, we also have the Orion deployed to the Gulf. It is not just a matter of eight or 10 crew members; there is a whole airfield team, as well. Also, there is the Hercules deployed north of Afghanistan, and the Anzac frigate in the Gulf, which also has a shore component in the Gulf of Oman. We say there is a serious risk in terms of sustainability. The reason I raise that question is that in East Timor the six battalion-sized rotations caused serious problems for our defence forces. I am sure the Minister of Defence recognises that reality\u2014the Army has done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E The whole issue of the Inquiry into Defence Beyond 2000 was to narrow the focus of, and to build depth in, our defence forces. I am sure the Minister of Defence would accept that. The abolition of the air combat force was intended to be part of meeting that goal. But that has not yet happened. Certainly, some new equipment has been ordered\u2014no question about that. But what has not happened is the beefing-up of the components of the defence forces that we use the most, so that they are made more sustainable. The question that has come out of East Timor, and the deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan, and now in the Solomons, is whether we should not have a three-battalion Army, so that it would have that continuity and sustainability. I understand that the Army has looked at that question. It will take money, but that money was saved when the air combat force was ended. Similarly, that issue arises with regard to the two Anzac frigates. We had the two Anzac frigates simultaneously in the Gulf of Oman. That is our entire Navy. Surely the change in circumstances asks us to look at the issue of frigate numbers afresh. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe final issue I wish to talk on is the matter of regional security. In our region Australia and New Zealand take the lead; there is no question about that. This deployment is largely an Australian \u2013 New Zealand deployment. The Government has said that it is all multilateral, and that the UN supports it through its political committee. What if the UN did not? Would we say we were therefore disempowered? I think not. That is why Alexander Downer, on 27 June, said that in our region we have to take responsibility, along with the South Pacific nations. At best, the United Nations is informed. We expect its acceptance that we have responsibilities in terms of regional security. Members should contrast that to the situation with regard to Iraq. There the Government says that the UN should make the decisions exclusively. The problem with that is that a veto or a threatened veto by France would have had the result of Saddam Hussein still being in power. Surely that could not be a good thing. So the Government needs to be honest on this issue. It is not about UN approval but about the countries of the region taking the leadership roles, and being responsible for the security of their region. We say the Government should at least recognise that fact, be honest with the people of New Zealand, and not pretend that UN approval is actually a prerequisite for a deployment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00220de8921a5ac14befa0f01e5e2f6dbadf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220de8921a5ac14befa0f01e5e2f6dbadf\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, I would like to recognise the thoughtful, dignified, and, I think, genuinely sincere contributions from Richard Prebble, Keith Locke, Peter Dunne, and, indeed, Wayne Mapp, which sadly contrasted with the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a9e4f6e2e3e4fbf85e2e239f45f5d2a\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Wayne Mapp?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278dcb3f9987740daa576484896af0cc5\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, indeed, Wayne Mapp. It would perhaps have been better had his leader led off with that speech rather than with the unfortunate, rather sad, miserable, and petty contribution from him\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf24accd42a643f4860f1ce6aaedd5cd\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: They are serious questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf84ff22c2c949c6bee2cbd4178ce809\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Mapp that I listened quietly to him for 10 minutes and I ask that he afford me the same dignity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EA number of members raised important and serious questions that I will endeavour to give some response to in the limited time available. Firstly, reference was made to the numbers in the territorial force. Indeed, there are issues to address there, and they are being addressed. I should point out that the absolute numbers need to be understood against what is called the efficiency level\u2014the percentage of those in the force who are at the required level of training to be deployable. That level is the highest it has been in decades. So although the absolute numbers have reduced, the number of efficient members has increased. I am not for a moment disputing that we have a challenge and an issue to address there, but it is well on the way to being addressed through a number of measures that are being taken, and by others that are being addressed, as we speak, through the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI refer to the matter of attrition. Again, 10 or 20 years ago if one went to a Minister and a Chief of Defence Force, then yes, indeed, they would have been talking about problems of recruitment and retention. Ten years from now I am sure they will be doing the same. We have compounded problems at the moment. We have record employment, which means there is a more competitive job market. We have the problem that we have always had in the New Zealand Defence Force: we have the very finest people, we train them to the highest standard, and many of the skills and talents they have are internationally marketable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESo those issues will always be issues, but we have addressed them as a Government in a manner that they have not ever been addressed before. For 3 years and three Budgets in a row, we have seen funded pay increases and improved conditions for the members of the Defence Force. It is a bit rich for Mr Mark, whose party was a member of a Government during which time his party did not even have a defence policy\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e01b7540524f18bcc3909789ff4c84\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe58b4134a7b42008257ab886bfe5838\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mark\u2019s party had no defence policy. It went into an election without one and it was in Government without one. The National Party had one, but New Zealand First did not have one. They did nothing, and indeed, even during that time, Mr Worth, a member of the National Party, at the end of 1999 described the state of the Defence Force as perilously low in capability and short of funds to correct the situation because of what he called 9 years of neglect. That was how Mr Worth described the Defence Force at the end of 9 years of National. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWe are dealing with those issues with major re-equipment upgrades and the developing of depth across all three services. There is a long list of new equipment, modernisation, and upgrades. Mr Nick Smith does not like it, but facts are a bit of a problem for Mr Smith. He has always had difficulty with those. Even our good friend and neighbour Australia, in its most recent publications about defence policy, acknowledges\u2014as I am sure most of the world acknowledges\u2014that it sees the threats to Australia in the future as being less about conventional threats and more about unconventional threats. I refer to things like terrorism, border security, and so on. The challenges that Australia, and we, and others will face are around those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI also note the comments about a police-led operation. Mr Mapp touched on that, as did others. I will come back to it, but the police-led operation has been strongly affirmed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe Solomon Islands is a nation that is teetering on the edge of State failure. Civil unrest and an ongoing governance crisis have resulted in significant deterioration there, both in the standard of living for the Solomon Islands people and in their basic level of security. We have seen a cumulative decline in gross domestic product over a 3-year period to 2002. That decline has been as high as 30 percent. They have a Government debt of about US$230 million. At every level they are in crisis. The public service payroll is erratic at best, and operational funding for Government departments is now virtually non-existent. As a result, we are seeing a complete decline in basic service delivery, or at least it being desperately disrupted. Health and education services, the absolute core of any society, are severely curtailed, and there is a real risk right now that if this situation continues, a whole generation of Solomon Islanders will be deprived of a basic education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EOver and above that, there is the failure to exercise expenditure controls within Government, which makes it very difficult for donors to provide support at a sufficient level to arrest the decline and indeed to assist the Solomon Islands Government to make fundamental change. If this situation continues, it will be dire indeed for the Solomon Islands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on the point that as we anticipate the formal request from the sovereign nation of the Solomon Islands, a formal governmental request, of course New Zealand is sympathetic, and it is pleasing to hear every party in the Parliament express support for a New Zealand response to the Solomon Islands. That sympathy, of course, will be reflected in Cabinet decisions presently. It was good to see yesterday in Sydney Ministers from the Pacific Islands Forum nations gather and again express their collective support for what is importantly going to be, I think, a Pacific response and a Pacific solution to this dire situation in the economy and social structure of one of our neighbours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EThe breakdown in those social structures, in governance, and in law and order requires a comprehensive package of assistance, not just a civil/police intervention backed by military capability, if we are to restore law and order and if we are to empower the institutions of the Solomons so that they can ultimately achieve economic and social recovery. There is clearly a need for that police-led intervention, and I want to stress that strongly. It is something that Alexander Downer, the Foreign Minister of Australia, has said. My colleague Senator Hill, the Minister of Defence for Australia, at our press conference last Thursday in Canberra also emphasised the same thing. This must be a police\u2014a civil\u2014intervention at that level, but, of course, it will require, to the extent that is necessary, military support to back it up. It should be seen in those terms: a military capability to back it up to the extent to which it is required to restore civil control and law and order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EBut let us not forget that that civil restoration is all about creating what some have called a security pause so that, in effect, in parallel, those social, political, governance, and economic interventions can happen, as well. That may well require integrated packages of assistance from New Zealand, Australia, and others along aid lines to help stabilise the budget, in particular, to help with the strategic planning for the future, and to get those instruments of State and society back on track. It will need help to enable the criminal justice system to function effectively and cope with an increased caseload as a result of the police and defence interventions. Most of all, it will need help to get the health and education systems back on track, because without those no society can function. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESo I welcome the support of Parliament. I know that when the time comes to dispatch police and defence personnel, we will give them our full support. I want to say, finally, as the Minster of Defence, that any defence personnel who are dispatched will, I know, go willingly and proudly to represent New Zealand. They will represent us with distinction, and I am sure that that can only add to the high reputation that New Zealand has through the efforts of its defence personnel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022cceb216d637942d882a018a0f387a267\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cceb216d637942d882a018a0f387a267\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table New Zealand First\u2019s defence policy of 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c3525d22954989bbcc9d3ae80b66b9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022a41083bf8da447dbb6b4266c96f66cef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a41083bf8da447dbb6b4266c96f66cef\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in anticipation of the fact that the member is going to table a document that I was genuinely led to believe does not exist\u2014if it does, in advance I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b41014947e44c9ab8ab221d6c81d5d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002226a12411154e4ad0b6217588e19880dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226a12411154e4ad0b6217588e19880dc\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I also seek the leave of the House to table New Zealand First defence policy of 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e4a43cf4e7c47de9a23abbb7b479477\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022da997507ca50482087946a6f33be3b42\u0022\u003ECare of Children Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022915f5e6056624ffbb8f5d246a9888740\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000356\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 26 June.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022afe1b5d90ff643c8a089ae0f5c1b53c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afe1b5d90ff643c8a089ae0f5c1b53c5\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take just a very short call on this bill, and say what an extraordinary debate it has been, punctuated by quite a bunch of inaccuracies and scaremongering. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00228d186de793fc4b5e8ce304d348d86d60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d186de793fc4b5e8ce304d348d86d60\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This bill will be opposed by National because it is part of Labour\u2019s dangerous social engineering that has the State assuming more and more control and power over children\u2019s lives, at the expense of parents. The Minister stated last week: \u201CThis legislation is getting away from the language of parents having rights. Parents have responsibilities towards their children.\u201D We take a very different view. [Interruption] Only a Minister like that member who is interjecting, a member who does not have any children, could make a statement in this Parliament that parents do not have rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIs it not interesting that members opposite are all very keen to have gay rights, they are all very keen to have workers\u2019 rights, they are all very keen to have human rights, and they even want to have prostitutes\u2019 rights, but when it comes to parents\u2019 rights this Government is not interested? It is so revealing, when looking at this Care of Children Bill, to see whom the Government consulted. It consulted the Law Society, the Principal Family Court Judge, Barnardos, and the New Zealand Association of Children\u2019s Supervised Access Services. But why did it not consult parents? If there is anybody who is important in the lives and care of children, it is parents. Where is the Federation of New Zealand Parents Centres, with regard to this bill? Why did the Government not talk to that organisation? Why has the Government not talked to any organisation that is representative of parents\u2019 organisations? No wonder the Government came up with a bill that neglects the rights of the people who are most important in children\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational believes that rights go with responsibilities. They belong together like glove and hand. Judith Tizard can laugh all she likes. But I say to Judith Tizard that the people who get up in the middle of the night to attend to a sick child, like my wife last night, have rights. People who change dirty nappies day in, day out have rights. People who work day in, day out for the well-being of the children of this country have rights, and members opposite need to start thinking about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ERuth Dyson is trying to interject but I want her to get to her feet. The question of whether the State can make a better parent than the parents themselves goes to the core of the bill. This bill is all about extending the powers of the State. The Minister makes much of the bill\u2019s stated purpose\u2014the best interests of the child. Well, this is one of those warm, fuzzy statements that it is impossible to disagree with. It reminds me of a candidate who once stood against me, and said: \u201CWell, I\u2019m going to do what\u2019s best for Nelson.\u201D That does not say a lot, does it. It does not say anything at all. All it does is abrogate the responsibility of this Parliament to say how the best interests of children will be served. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe key issue is, who decides what is in children\u2019s best interests? The Minister says the State does. That is why this bill gives increased powers to social workers, counsel for the child, psychologists, cultural advisers, and the courts. The National Party says that that is mistaken. These people are just momentary visitors in the lives of children, they can never make as important a contribution to the lives of children as parents do, and that is why they should be mentioned. The real way to get children a better deal is to strengthen families, and that will not come about by a bill that diminishes parents to being bystanders in the decisions that affect their children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second issue on which National takes a very different view is the Minister\u2019s statement that the sex of parents is irrelevant. Whether a child has a mum, a dad, two mums, or two dads, in the Minister\u2019s mind it does not matter. Well, I have a different view. We do not live in some sexless society. Men and women are equal, and they are different. No amount of wishful thinking from Government bureaucrats or politically correct Ministers will change those facts of life. This bill completely ignores the importance of children having relationships with their mother and their father. That is the significance of this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EEvery MP in this Parliament will have had instances of responsible dads coming to see them, who are desperate to play a role in their children\u2019s lives but are beaten by the costs, the bureaucracy, and the bias of the court. This bill ignores their plight and makes things worse. The parent not providing the day-to-day care of the child, previously known as the non-custodial parent, may, in fact, find it even more difficult when trying to get a role in the upbringing of his or her child. That is not in children\u2019s best interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to make plain National\u2019s position in respect of same-sex, de facto, and reconstituted families. We take issue with the ridiculous notion that this bill creates female fathers. That is a nonsense. However, there is a need to make better provision in the law for the wide range of family arrangements that exist today. Step-parents, gay parents, and de facto parents need to be recognised in law. However, an underlying principle needs to be recognised. Children need long-term, stable relationships. The way in which the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services moves children around, willy-nilly, is a total disgrace. The extent to which these parents have a say in the lives of others needs to reflect the degree to which they have contributed to a child\u2019s well-being. The step-parent who has attended the odd birthday party has a lesser right to a say on the welfare of a child than a step-parent who has been the full-time caregiver for years. This bill makes absolutely no distinction in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational further notes other concerns. We think that clause 5, which requires a child, regardless of age, to express a view on whom they might like to live with, and the requirement of the court to take this into account, reflects an impractical obsession with the rights of the child, not with the well-being of the child. We see no need to move from the current law that conditions this with the age and maturity of the child. We also believe there are some real risks in opening up the court to so many more parties\u2014aunties, uncles, stepbrothers, stepsisters, grandparents. The more parties that are involved, the more difficult it is to get resolution, and in many cases it will make worse the work of the Family Court in resolving such issues. National comes from the perspective that the Family Court is a far from ideal environment in which to resolve family disputes, and that as much as possible issues should be resolved outside of that legalistic environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to say what is missing from this bill. It is noteworthy to look at the equivalent Australian law, which recognises the rights that parents have. It recognises that children\u2019s most important players in their lives are the family around them. They almost do not exist in this particular bill. We note that the Australian law specifically connects responsibilities with rights, so that those parents who pay child support have rights of access. The Australian law also makes it plain that it is in the child\u2019s best interests to have ongoing and regular contact with both parents, whether or not they are living with each other, and we should adopt those same sorts of principles in our law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to make is in respect of the secrecy of the Family Court. The Family Court needs to be opened up to the disinfectant of sunlight. Our present closed-court environment does not work in the best interests of children, or our country as a whole. Again I look to the Australian model, which provides for confidentiality of the parties but provides for an open court. We are far more likely to have successful outcomes in a Family Court environment in which there is openness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is a politically correct job of social engineering, and this Parliament should reject it. We need to go back to the drawing board and concentrate on a bill that puts the family at the centre, around the child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022 data-id=\u00224d229ec4b8c84997b18b92c342285fe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d229ec4b8c84997b18b92c342285fe6\u0022\u003EJANET MACKEY (NZ Labour\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E I look forward to National supporting the bill, in the interests of increased transparency of the Family Court. One thing this bill sets out to do is to seek increased transparency. Anyone who does constituency clinics will know that Family Court matters and matters of custody in families are some of the most difficult, most complex, and saddest cases that come before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EThis bill responds to the rights of children to have access to both parents, and the responsibility of parents to ensure that in the breakdown of a marriage the needs of the children continue to be met. The bill also deals with the issue of the privacy and secrecy of the Family Court, which at the present time is causing grief to so many families. I support the bill, and I look forward to National doing the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd26c63402a24d2fa0e369691b5e5f3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd26c63402a24d2fa0e369691b5e5f3b\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to join my colleague the member for East Coast\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f24acab19a744ed5933b4ef3d6880950\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That person in the gallery is a stranger in the gallery and has no part in this House. I ask the Serjeant-at-Arms to take remedial action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EA disturbance took place in the gallery, and a member of the public was removed on the instruction of the Assistant Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2e62329605349e89fcbe787bbccafda\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: I rise to join my colleague the member for East Coast, Janet Mackey, in supporting the first reading of this bill. It updates and replaces the Guardianship Act from 1968, and moves to recognise the changes that have happened in the 35 years since that Act was written. Of course, it also builds on the principles behind the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act, which puts the child first in terms of how the State deals with these issues. I believe that that is an important shift in looking after the children of New Zealand. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022904a1bb3b473459a80fa6ed95308e9c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022904a1bb3b473459a80fa6ed95308e9c3\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E Like many other people in New Zealand, I am a believer in the institution of the family in whatever form it takes, because the family is, and will remain, the seedbed of love, trust, and security. Whatever we might think about how the world has changed in 35 years, we know that most children are still brought up in families. Most of those families have two parents, even if there is some shuffling around among those parents. It is still a minority of children who are raised in families of one parent, and it is a very small proportion of our children who are raised in families after having been conceived by artificial means of human reproduction, or in families where they have same-sex parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis is not just a matter of looking at the statistics, although the statistics bear out what I have said; it is also the experience of parents. If one spends one\u2019s time around schools and sports grounds, one does not find a huge variety in the living arrangements of children. One finds that children and parents tend to seek long-term, stable relationships\u2014parents seeking them for themselves, and also seeking them as the best atmosphere in which to bring up their children. So I do not fear, in any way, that ill-judged legislation will undermine the institution of the family. It is, after all, the custom and the practice of the people. The institution of the family will persist, no matter what.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EBut this bill shows that this particular Government has a stunningly vacuous neutrality about how human relationships work in our community. It is one of three pieces of similar legislation. It is no wonder that my colleague says it does not place the family as the important framework for a child, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022220a05b540874b81809195379487f03e\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: It puts the children first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba2ba5388df4861addf453b85d5aafe\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Just hear me out. The reason this legislation does not place the family as the institution in which the child will have the best framework is that the Families Commission Bill, according to this Government, defines a family as a group of people with a psychological attachment. That is a bizarre definition of everything from a nation State to a \u201Cbikie\u201D gang. If the Government feels that it has to go to the extent of defining a family, as if it matters what the Government thinks a family is, and if it feels that it has to put that definition in legislation, as if that will make any difference to how people behave in reality, there is no doubt that it is unable to put the family into legislation, as part of the Care of Children Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis bill, like the others\u2014the property relationship bill and the Families Commission Bill\u2014is completely devoid of support, encouragement, or recognition for the family. In fact, all that legislation bears a deep, ideological imprint of a group of people in a Government who want to go as far as they believe is politically feasible to eradicate the words \u201Cfamily\u201D, \u201Cparents\u201D, \u201Chusband\u201D, and \u201Cwife\u201D from legislation. But, as I said, it is the custom and the practice of the people to live this way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI come to the bill itself. The Associate Minister of Justice and the Government are in an interesting situation. They are interested in everyone\u2019s rights\u2014except the rights of parents. We spend all our time acknowledging the rights of almost anyone else in the community except parents. This is what the Minister has to say about parents: \u201CThis legislation is getting away from the language of parents having rights.\u201D And so it should. Let me say that again: \u201CThis legislation is getting away from the language of parents having rights.\u201D And so it should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a1756b431ec42e19c18a8ea0fcf3fb3\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the name of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bd8b3b1eda949d79a7c036ecd636837\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Lianne Dalziel is the name of the Minister\u2014\u201CParents have responsibilities towards their children.\u201D Well, they do, and they do not need the Associate Minister of Justice to tell them that. Parents face their responsibilities to their children every day. What backs this bill is a philosophy that goes like this: the first relationship of a child is with the State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022506333c5e25840e89111be4fd83494f7\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a44ca0603c554a6a941351e79dee639a\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is. The State determines the parents\u2019 responsibilities, then puts in place a mechanism to ensure those responsibilities are carried out. [Interruption] Well, Government members can wobble their heads, but that is absolutely the corollary of what the Minister said\u2014that parents do not have rights; they have responsibilities. Then it can only be the State that defines those responsibilities. I say it is wrong. I say the family and the rights of parents exist prior to, separate from, and despite the State, and the State performs a secondary, not a primary, role in looking after our children\u2014the children of parents. So parents do have rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt is precisely the problem with the Family Court that it has trouble recognising those rights. At times it has to make difficult decisions about distributing parental rights. We accept that that is part of its job, and there are provisions in this bill that will certainly improve procedures that constituents of mine have had to deal with\u2014and improve them quite considerably. But it is not up to the Family Court to decide who is a good parent. It is not up to the Family Court to hear from anyone with a connection to the child who might want to question the parenting that is occurring. I have looked through this bill to try to find the trigger or threshold that brings these provisions into effect, and I cannot find one. The threshold\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c199aaa84b54441b4b6724d6b7b3bf2\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called a relationship breakdown.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022112c99f7c236422886cc895ca868f098\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: So where is that in the bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a72e423f0ac43cbb0d1ec3dfa0a0e35\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, for goodness\u2019 sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e48a01d8e8a4cdd9828bc03e837b29c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Actually, a colleague of mine is in trouble with the Solicitor-General because he is dealing with a case where there is not a marital breakdown, and where the Family Court has simply decided that the parents do not have the choice of raising their own child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe ought to be very suspicious, as parents and as parliamentarians, of the agents of the State that this bill gives greater power to. The counsel for the child and the cultural adviser are already there\u2014we know that. It is not my experience that they always have good judgment about the conditions that children need. We should be careful that the bill does not give them much more power than they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EAs Nick Smith has pointed out, the Australian legislation is much more practical and much less ideological. This bill is the ideological child of the Labour Government and the Family Court industry. The Australian legislation reflects much more the reality of how people live their lives. For instance, it acknowledges families, the important role that families fulfil in raising children, and the job of the Family Court to ensure that it supports and strengthens the family around the child. This legislation is based on the presumption that we remove the family; that it is just a wider pool of applicants for parenting orders, and that the child is there wholly and solely on its own, with its rights. That is not how people live, and that is why this bill will certainly need to change. It has to change in some quite obvious ways, such as the female fathers issue. Some people say it is a trivial point, but I say it shows an attitude. Even the Prime Minister has now acknowledged that it was unfortunately drafted. That needs to change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002286cc344a96d74bc09424e14d03ced344\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Care of Children Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002200ffd198b1714888b0543e6545d638d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200ffd198b1714888b0543e6545d638d1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Care of Children Bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220be075086f874388bc7b6ce754caee57\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: An amendment has been received from Metiria Turei to omit the words \u201CGovernment Administration\u201D and substitute the words \u201CJustice and Electoral\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228f37460e061c4cb6a948b873c910aae3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EUnited Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000396\u0022\u003EMotion as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cd741f30b30472aa78df89b7815efab\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277f3652565a74855a0d41ab017f5b821\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022872a69a1755e4e8f900237869c6afd55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022872a69a1755e4e8f900237869c6afd55\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the introduction and first reading of the Immigration Amendment Bill, the introduction and passing of the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), the first reading of the Border Security Bill; and the passing through their remaining stages of the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill, the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, and of any bills into which those bills may be divided; the second reading of the Retirement Villages Bill; and the passing through their remaining stages of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill, the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6), the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Bill, and the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill, and of any bills into which those bills may be divided.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe motion is moved first of all in order to enable the Immigration Amendment Bill to proceed to its first reading and a select committee without the standard 3-day separation\u2014I think members who have been briefed on this will understand the reasons for that\u2014and, because of administrative reasons that arise out of the first bill, to enable the passing through all its stages of the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). In relation to the remainder of the bills, the motion is moved in order to gain extra sitting hours to enable the House to consider those bills, which members of this House, and others, have indicated they are keen to see passed as rapidly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229ed1d945547040c08995e332a6294100\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222061d696b4414834b7a3137bb55cb926\u0022\u003EImmigration Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c3855cf10c0347c996d9a9b734c4e43f\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00225f69e7c8e3424caeaada368259b16b8f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f69e7c8e3424caeaada368259b16b8f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Amendment Bill be now read a first time. It is my intention to move that the bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and that the committee have authority to meet on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, at any time while the House is sitting except during oral questions, and during an evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b) and (c); and that the committee report back to the House on or before 25 August 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill will allow the Government to deliver on its commitment made at the last election to shift New Zealand from being a passive recipient of skilled migrants to a country that assesses what our needs are, and goes out to the world to actively recruit those who meet those needs. This bill does that by setting up a much more flexible legislative framework around which skilled immigration policy is established. This means moving away from the Immigration Act\u2019s current entitlement model where applicants who meet set criteria must be approved residence, towards a model where New Zealand\u2019s needs are paramount. This is what the skilled stream was always designed to do. However, it has failed at the implementation stage to achieve that goal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EPrior to the 1991 points-based general category being introduced, the focus was on occupational priorities, so this stream of migrants was intended to ensure that migrants matched New Zealand\u2019s skill shortages. Unfortunately, the shift to the points system moved the emphasis from New Zealand\u2019s actual priorities in terms of skill shortages to the assumed employability and potential contribution of the migrant. This was the policy that gave us the doctors driving taxis scenario\u2014something the Government of the day took 4 years to address. Other policy changes in the 1990s, and the unwillingness of the Government of the day to focus on settlement outcomes, meant skilled migrants came to New Zealand without a glimmer of hope of ever finding opportunities to match their skills, their talent, and their experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESome of those very people who came in under other Governments are struggling today. In fact, the Sunday Star-Times on 22 June, just 2 weeks ago, ran a story about Jeffrey Zhang and Helen He, Chinese immigrants to New Zealand, 48 and 45 years of age. I quote Mr Zhang: \u201CWhen we came here, it was a new beginning. We had to struggle for life. We didn\u2019t have high ambition for a luxurious life.\u201D The article goes on to state: \u201CJust as well. He has more tertiary qualifications than you\u2019ll likely find in an average Kiwi street but can find work only as a kitchen or factory hand. \u2026 Zhang has six tertiary qualifications, if you count three years\u2019 PhD study in Sweden. He\u2019s switched from social sciences to business studies to make him more employable\u2014an MBA from Canberra and, since immigrating here 3 years ago, management and accounting qualifications from Massey University and Auckland University of Technology. Zhang has done the rounds of universities (he was an associate professor at a Shanghai university and is the author of six academic books) and banks. All without luck. The longest jobs he\u2019s had were for a company making kitchens and as a salesman of timeshares. The former went broke after six months and the latter turned out to be shonky. His wife, a university lecturer in China, is studying early childhood education. She wants to work as a kindergarten teacher. She, and their son, work part-time in restaurants.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat is what the skilled immigration policy of the 1990s did to migrants, and that is what it offered New Zealand. This policy is about addressing that for the sake of the migrants and for the sake of New Zealand. The Immigration Amendment Bill is about turning the policy around so that we get the best of both worlds. We retain the points system, but we now have bonus points that emphasise New Zealand\u2019s needs, and we prioritise potential migrants with the greatest potential to meet those needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about immigration numbers. The Government is committed to an ongoing and stable immigration programme now and into the future, and has recently decided to maintain the annual programme at 45,000 places for 2003-04. This bill is about skilled migrants, who make up 60 percent of the programme\u2014and I know that the National Party wants to increase that to 70 percent of the programme, which may be something that we can look at in the future\u2014because of the changes this Government brought in. There was no such emphasis under the National Government. It is important that those who come under this category are selected by us on their ability to settle well and to make a contribution to New Zealand. The bill allows New Zealand to manage immigration applications effectively, by providing that residence applications from skilled migrants can be by way of invitation only. Currently, all applications must be accepted, and when the pass mark is met, we have to grant residence. We do not have any choice in the matter, even when we have very good reason to believe that there will not be a good settlement outcome. We will now be able to recruit and select migrants whom we need and whom we know will settle well here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAdditionally, the bill establishes the concept of expressions of interest as a preliminary step for skilled people interested in applying for residence. Only those who meet a minimum threshold will be able to register an expression of interest, which is much preferable to the changing pass mark that manages numbers at the moment. It has gone from the early 20s to the early 30s over a decade. What sort of stability is that? We have a set pass mark that people will have to surpass. That is the threshold for registering the expression of interest, and I am glad that New Zealand First is supportive of that. Those expressing interest will be ranked and those with the best ability, in terms of employability and capacity building\u2014we will be looking at the effects on the regions, as well\u2014will be invited to apply. There will be bonus points in the system for people who have job offers outside Auckland and for people who are meeting New Zealand\u2019s skill shortage needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EUnder the provisions of the bill, the Residence Appeal Authority is renamed the Residence Review Board, and new review procedures are established for some people whose applications are declined. Specifically, it restricts reviews to the Residence Review Board to applications that are lodged in New Zealand, unless offshore applicants have a New Zealand employer or family sponsor who agrees to support the review. It is inconsistent with an immigration policy that focuses on New Zealand\u2019s needs to allow individuals with no connection to New Zealand an opportunity to access a subsidised review system. It clarifies that only those skilled applicants invited to apply for residence can seek a review of a declined decision, and it prevents those applicants who have submitted false or misleading information, or who have withheld relevant information, from seeking a review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis is the most significant change to skilled immigration policy in more than a decade, and it will be welcomed by all sectors of the community. I know that it will be welcomed by the business community as it meets the objectives that community has established for innovation and growth. I know that it will be welcomed by the union movement, as unions have been concerned about skilled migrants who are forced into unskilled and semi-skilled work, undercutting wages and conditions of employment. It will be welcomed by well-settled ethnic communities who have seen newer members faced with insurmountable barriers. I know that it will be welcomed by the good immigration consultants, who provide, or have links with, post-arrival settlement programmes, because they are already working on an outcomes basis with a recruitment focus. The only people who will complain will be the other immigration consultants, who think their job is done when the residence permit is stamped in the passport. Those people have nothing to offer New Zealand, and what we are trying to achieve through this change in policy is ensuring that we have a win-win for skilled migrants and for New Zealand. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022376e30b6aac74700be46ca3c93022bc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022376e30b6aac74700be46ca3c93022bc5\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E There are two different categories of legislation that this Government introduces into Parliament. There is the stuff that the Government thinks it has thought through and that it thinks will be popular, and one can tell what that looks like because the Government leaks most of the details to the Sunday papers. The Prime Minister basks in the glory of it at her post-Cabinet press conference on a Monday afternoon, then the bill is paraded before Parliament with great fanfare on Tuesday and Wednesday. But the Immigration Amendment Bill is not one of those bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe second category of bill is one that the Minister knows is a damage control operation. The Minister knows that he or she has not done the homework, that it will not be popular, and that he or she does not know the answer to many of the important questions. There is no mention of those sorts of bills in the Sunday papers. There is no mention of them at the Prime Minister\u2019s press conference on Monday, and on Tuesday we find that the matter will be dealt with under an urgency motion because the Government knows that it wants to minimise the period of exposure of what will be an unpopular measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe bill that is before us today and the bill that will be introduced tonight are very much part of that second category of legislation. They are introduced by a Minister who is not on top of the game, who cannot answer the crucial questions, and who does not want to be exposed to a grilling in the normal parliamentary environment. This is a bill that the Prime Minister did not want to talk about at her post-Cabinet press conference yesterday, and that speaks volumes. This measure is a measure that the Prime Minister did not want to own at yesterday\u2019s press conference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThis is a very important measure, and I am going to agree with the Minister in some important respects. It is a very important series of changes to immigration policy. I say at the outset that those changes deserve to be thoroughly inspected, the select committee should be given the appropriate opportunity to do its job, and members should be able to reflect on the importance of changes in relation to a subject that is profoundly important to our future. But let us also remember that in relation to the measures that the House is being invited to deal with tonight under an urgency motion, this is the result of a series of ministerial blunders. This measure, and its companion measure, is the culmination of a series of ministerial stuff-ups. Having failed to address the policy issues that the Minister was told she had to address, and having left it far too late to address the setting of criteria prospectively, the Minister had to make some decisions retrospectively. She made a hash of it, so she got taken to the courts by some of those citizens who were affected by the measure, and the courts found against her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EMr Justice Randerson of the High Court of New Zealand decided, in a judgment, that some of the decisions that the Minister made were wrong in law, and that she could not make them. So the Government went away into its corner and thought about its position, and we saw the Minister responsible produce a press release on 17 June 2003 with great fanfare: \u201CGovernment to appeal immigration case\u201D. Only a couple of weeks ago we were told that the Minister thought she had grounds for appeal against the decision of Mr Justice Randerson in the High Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Minister has such confidence in the position she has adopted in relation to that appeal that she is blowing the appeal process out of the water by asking the Parliament to do tonight and tomorrow what she knows the Court of Appeal will not do. She has read page 31 of Justice Randerson\u2019s decision and she now knows that what she did was wrong in law, and that there is no hope in hell that the Court of Appeal will come to her rescue. What she was really saying behind all the ministerial political flannel in the speech we have just heard was: \u201CLook, I\u2019m desperate. I\u2019ve made a hash of it. I did it too late. I did it retrospectively, and the courts found me out. I know the Court of Appeal, which I said on 17 June I was going to appeal to, is going to blow me out of the water, so, please, Parliament, do what the Court of Appeal will not do, get me out of a fix. Bail me out.\u201D I am saying to that Minister that she will have to come clean if she wants to be helped out of the hash she has made of things by having this Parliament come to her rescue. She will have to come clean and admit that that is what she is asking us to do. Anybody who listened to the Minister\u2019s speech would be excused for failing to understand that that is the import of the measures she brings to the House tonight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI think there are profoundly important questions that lie behind both of these bills, and, indeed, any measure with a retrospective effect deserves to have the tyres kicked very hard by this legislature on the way the way through. It deserves to have a doubly hard tyre-kicking when the Government is asking for it to be done in urgency, which is the case in relation to the second part of this package that is before the House tonight. I say to the Minister that if she thinks she is going to get away with the loose and easy explanation she has given to the House tonight about where she is headed, then she has got another think coming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EFirst of all, regarding the process, I say that immigration policy, and the way in which we make it, is profoundly important. How we deal with this measure, and with the second measure, does matter, because it does not just affect people\u2019s lives, and it is not just about the fact that people have applied in good faith under the rules as they were at the time, expecting to be dealt with under those rules, and that they are now being told by the Government that that will not be the case for the vast majority; it is also about the fact that we are sending a signal to everybody else whom we hope is going to consider making some contribution to the future of this country by applying under one of the immigration categories at some stage. It is a signal we send to all those people about how we are going to deal with them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI strongly believe that immigration policy should be predictable, transparent, certain, and fair. The manner in which this Minister has dealt with the series of issues that has come before us, which now sees her bringing this bill to the House, has not been predictable\u2014it has been anything but predictable: it has been completely incoherent. And it certainly has not been transparent. As I have said, if it had been a popular, well-thought-through measure, then there would not have been a press conference and a briefing for parliamentarians at 4 o\u2019clock this afternoon before dealing with the matter under urgency; there would have been a proper process by which to take the Minister\u2019s case to Parliament to ask for its earnest and fair consideration. The process is wrong. It will be destructive of confidence as far as the public is concerned, and there will be those whose hopes are dashed by the measure before the House today, who deserve us to kick the tyres hard as we see this measure go through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EBehind all this is the introduction of a new skilled migrant category, which, as the Minister has said, will replace the points system. I say to the Minister that notwithstanding her bad faith in not consulting anyone before this measure was introduced under urgency, and notwithstanding the discourtesy of a Minister not even being prepared to make a ministerial statement\u2014as I think Mr Prebble has discussed in the House this afternoon\u2014I will try to give this matter fair and courteous consideration, because I think the issues are fair. But I will take some convincing that we should go back to the policy of the 1980s, because a policy that involves continuous identification of the skill groups that are required relies on having politicians and bureaucrats who are good at picking those categories of need quickly enough. That was not the experience during the 1980s, which was the reason that approach was abandoned. If the Minister is going to tell us that something is going to be different now, then she needs to do a better job of that than she did in her introductory speech. There are many important questions, and this Parliament will ask all of them of this Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022cab8c336d4a54c55b51181f7c47c55c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cab8c336d4a54c55b51181f7c47c55c0\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future supports this bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aaa6779f95e4c169c3192091844c701\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. At the last election we came in third, and United Future stumbled in at about sixth. What is the member doing, speaking in this debate before I or a member of my party has had the call?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228abb1e5b683f410ea15b030b8d5cf68f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have a list in front of me, which is a list that has been adhered to for as long as I have been an Assistant Speaker in this House. I am now calling the honourable member Paul Adams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287fd5315e74d4959b8d30aecdd38258b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228e610dc15e84319b047d174a1e9cce0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already made a ruling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b408ff32562745509664090854a1095d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I know you have made a ruling, and you might have a list, but can you please tell me when it was decided that, under MMP, a party with a bigger membership than another party ends up speaking second to that party? Pray tell me how that is fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f4c75470aba4e88b276a4c801946881\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The reason is that United Future supports the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ebe3a1963c46958b8666b5187ec468\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think we are in danger of setting an unfortunate precedent here. I am not going to question your ruling, but I will invite you to give a considered ruling on this matter. Mr Peters properly makes the point that he is the leader of a significant political party. He has significant identification with this matter in the public mind, and he is a parliamentarian of very considerable seniority. If you are making a ruling because United Future has made some commitment\u2014which is not known to members of this House at this time\u2014to vote for this bill, then I think we are getting into territory that requires some further thought. I would have thought it was the position of most members that they wanted to hear the debate before giving a commitment as to which way they were going to vote on this matter. If you have some secret information on which you are basing your ruling, then I think we are all entitled to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eab6cdc45ed94aba8697ec73ca6e4ed9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: On a proportionality basis, the reality is that the call should go to Labour, but Labour has made an agreement that it goes to its coalition partner United Future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f03deefd14942f3a2f66e49b4bc7d59\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You see the difficulty you have got into here. You just described United Future as a coalition partner of the Government. That is the first time I have heard that, and we have been going since the election in July 2002. The second point is that any position United Future might take\u2014unlike the Progressives, which Mr Anderton leads\u2014is an artificial position, and it changes depending on the issue. So when United Future is backing the Government it gets priority, and if it is not backing the Government, it does not get priority. I cannot see how that is fair. Frankly, that is what worries me about this. You are saying that, despite what the public said at the last election, a party that has an artificial position will determine the speaking order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c413e2ecbac471aa94dc96af7664e63\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to Standing Order 84(3). Points of order are supposed to be terse and to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3de6c26885545d39d241a8793c06156\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The important point here is that, first and foremost, Speakers generally, over many, many years, have attempted to keep the flow of debate going across the debate, based on an understanding of where the support and the opposition to a particular measure before the House sits. That is what has been done in this case. Secondly, particularly since the advent of MMP, as members are well aware, there has been increasing use of the speaking order generally to assist the flow of debate in the House, and to assist the Speaker in the chair to give fair coverage to all the parties. Thirdly, and perhaps most important, the call has been given, it cannot be withdrawn, and it cannot be disputed by members from the floor of the House. It is clear, and a matter of longstanding ruling, both in the Standing Orders and in Speakers\u2019 Rulings, that once the call is given it cannot be withdrawn. The debate should continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdc0e5af8fb041d5b39e22979d99ed17\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you, Mr Assistant Speaker, for explaining the call you gave. It is parliamentary to alternate between those for and against, and that is what we are doing. I have checked with the United Future members, and they will vote for the measure, and I understand that Mr Peters will vote against it. So it is very parliamentary: we have just had a speech made by the National Party against the bill, and now we are to hear a speech in favour of it from United Future. We will then have Mr Peters, who, I am sure, by that time will be ready to give us a rip-roaring speech. We should get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221558ba7d6910485c96ba9679cbbc619a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. The point has been made that I have given the call to speak, under Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/3, and I cannot take it away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022791c0ed7684e44e489eafbd198bf1c49\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663bdf6792424d6b91d6c033521fa128\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already ruled. Is this a fresh point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f65b5281d20408698cbaf4f43e7a2ae\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. The precedent of United Future being given the second Government speech has now been running since the election, but it does raise an interesting point, and you might like to give a view on this at some stage. In the way that Mr Prebble has just put it, basically\u2014and it is accepted that in this case United Future supports the bill\u2014the call should be one for then one against. But we have occasions when United Future is opposed and the Greens are in support. Does that mean that sometimes the Greens will get the third speech, so to speak? How is the Speaker to know whether someone will support something or not support it, until the member actually takes the call? We could get ourselves into a difficulty. What has happened in the past is a precedent has been set, because United Future, while not in coalition, has by agreement indicated\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2a3ddd3451748fc8218369f47de7e9a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member come to the point? Standing Order 84(3) states that points of order should be terse and to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470835354eda4ff7bde75a655ab666b5\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. [Interruption] Yes, I know; I was making that point. But if we are going to go any further, then you run into the dilemma of trying to predict how members will vote. I say it would cause some difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e2ad9f34e1d4ba08d5419ffd6a89591\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am following the order of calls on the first readings of bills that was established by the Speaker and the Business Committee at the commencement of this Parliament. There is no reason to depart from it on this occasion. Other parties would find it unfair if the Speaker were to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b77b838a67463eba69b6639a699042\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to record my party\u2019s total disagreement with that ruling, and to say that it is totally contrary to the election results. To have a party in Government that is not part of any coalition taking precedence over a party with more seats is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255e648bbc84f44af96702a86b4b098d4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022193e8ae6b7d543da8c38e81703a0f567\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: United Future supports this bill because it is not about reducing the number of immigrants as part of some knee-jerk response to the cultural insecurity of New Zealanders; rather, it is all about the Government being a lot smarter about the people we accept as residents. The aim is to change from a passive receiver of anyone who wants to come to live here into an active recruiter of skills that the country needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe bill should not be seen in isolation from the changes that the Government will make in immigration policy. The legislation introduces a two-tier system for general skills residence applications, but is driven by a policy shift towards approving those who are most likely to make a positive contribution to the country and settle well here. Intending migrants will first submit an expression of interest, and will assess their skills and attributes, using a points system. The threshold of the current points system fluctuates depending on the number of applications. As the points go up it becomes more difficult for people with trade skills to qualify, because those with higher qualifications get more points. However, that may not take into account other factors, such as whether the country is in need of people with those qualifications, or whether they have a job offer relevant to their skills\u2014hence the phenomenon of over-qualified taxi-drivers. Under the proposed scheme, the same upper limit of immigrants will be rolled over, but the points will reflect the country\u2019s needs. In other words, applicants will receive bonus points for holding a skill that is in demand here, and for having a job offer that is relevant to that skill\u2014particularly if it is located in a region that is experiencing shortages. Other standards, such as health, character, and English language requirements, will still need to be met.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EFor those who meet the points threshold, the Immigration Service will issue an invitation to apply. The invitation to apply allows for an opportunity to verify job offers\u2014something that is not investigated as thoroughly as officials would like, at the current time. Successful applicants at this stage follow one of two courses. They may qualify for residence if they have already demonstrated an ability to settle and contribute to New Zealand\u2014for example, if they have worked or studied here. Alternatively, they may qualify for work-to-residence status for 2 years, if they have the potential to settle and contribute to New Zealand\u2014for example, if they have not been here before, but have received a job offer from a New Zealand employer. This means that if the migrant is unable to settle successfully here within that period, then that failure does not have to be met by the welfare system beyond a limited period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnder the current system, all applicants who meet the basic lodgment requirements must be accepted and processed, and that has contributed to the large backlog that exists now. The inflexibility of those provisions in the Immigration Act are amended by this bill, as those who do not receive within 3 months an invitation to apply will lapse from the system, which means that some of the more intensive stages of the application process are avoided. The lapsed applicants are not able to seek a review of this decision, as the bill also restricts access to a review to those applicants who are declined after they have been invited to apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c1bca42838b4a9fb90743764cf1ac79\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Did Lianne write this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257b3e7dfb03349a0b68827976019e676\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: No, she did not. The lapsing provision should be seen as a positive move, for, in many ways, it is better to be cruel than to be kind\u2014to let applicants know that they have failed the process, at the earliest possible stage. Under the current system people are putting their lives on hold for up to 2 years, but the change will mean that, in the future, applicants will know either way, within 3 months. Of course, if their circumstances change after their application has lapsed, in a way that would increase their points value\u2014such as an offer of relevant employment\u2014then they are free to reapply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EMy hope is that this process will give applicants more accurate expectations about their chances of success, and that, in the course of assessing an applicant\u2019s potential, immigration officials will be able to ensure that applicants have realistic expectations about what to expect when they come here. As much as we think our country is the greatest in the world, we need to dispel the misconceptions spread by some immigration consultants that the streets are paved with gold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe bill streamlines the review process, because only those people who, having been invited to apply for residence, have their applications declined will have access to a review. Only those applications lodged in New Zealand may be reviewed, unless offshore applicants have a New Zealand employer or family sponsor who supports the review. Those who have had their applications declined because they made a false declaration will not be eligible for a review of their case, but the Immigration Service will be able to correct any errors without recourse to the review board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe invitation to apply requires legislation, as do the provisions for lapsing residents\u2019 applications. The bill on its own is simply the bones of the reform. This will be fleshed out later by policy\u2014some of which I have discussed here\u2014that will set the criteria for inviting applications and assessing them. But at this stage the bill can be viewed as an additional filter through which residency policy will be applied. The Government intends to work with employer and trade organisations to identify skills gaps and which regions are in need. We are also encouraged by suggestions that the Immigration Service will become more proactive in marketing New Zealand as a place to live and work for skilled migrants, particularly in the virtually untapped North American markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2c8e844cdc54ab4813cc0d5752d7a0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yeah?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fdd463606e54adc9aa43086fceb0b31\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member happy about that? United Future is in favour of immigration. We are pleased that the overall level of migrants will be sustained for the next 3 years. Those who want to cut drastically the number of immigrants do not recognise that we need to maintain a sizeable working population to fund State services, in the light of the aging population and the slowing birth rate of the current adult population. This makes it all the more important to attract migrants who will be good for this country. Business and Economic Research Ltd reports that over the last year migrants had a positive net fiscal impact of $1.7 billion. With the right immigration programme in place, this added value could be even higher.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ETo United Future, it makes so much sense to move from a system dictated by the first-come-first-served approach, to one that puts the candidates who are more likely to integrate into New Zealand society at the head of the queue. Otherwise, the people we want may be stuck at the back of the queue for 2 years and lose their job offers, or they may go somewhere else that can offer quicker entry. At the same time, we would be letting people at the front of the queue get in first, when they might not have a relevant job offer, and might be more likely to be a drain on the taxpayer, through the benefit system, when they cannot find work. To let people come here who then cannot find proper work is unfair to them, as it makes it that much more difficult for them to integrate into New Zealand society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI ask those listening to look to this legislative framework for some very positive changes that are about to be made in residence policy, and I trust that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee will examine the bill with that in mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00224406a0c63f2b4616ae0680ced8fc40b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224406a0c63f2b4616ae0680ced8fc40b6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have heard some naive speeches in this House, but that would be the most naive I have heard in recent times. That member says that, after 3 months, this very efficient Immigration Service will lapse all applications. Do members feel safe about that? Do they feel good about that? There are 20,000 illegal overstayers in this country today. No one knows who they are, where they are, or what they are, but all of a sudden we can rely upon United Future\u2019s Immigration Service to find them when their applications expire after 3 months. [Interruption] \u201CSolar dome\u201D can make all the noise he likes\u2014he is not putting me off. He can make all the noises of a walrus, and the smells as well, but he will not put us off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe reality is Waikato University\u2019s leading professor of geography, the deputy vice-chancellor, presented a paper just last year in which he said: \u201CIn total, 190,000 people, including international students, were approved for permanent and temporary residence in the year ended June 2002 in New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4d98f81ef204c1c825c9e94ab6d0971\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283b8f97d50804737a87359d838859288\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It was 190,000. \u201CHowever, only 52,800 were in the immigration category, but a further 3,000 were admitted under temporary work policies, and 73,000 were covered by student visas and permits.\u201D But the issue gets more complicated. On page 2 of his document he says: \u201CIn the year ended June 2002, for example, almost two-thirds of New Zealand\u2019s approvals for residence were granted to people who applied while they were in New Zealand on temporary work or student visas.\u201D Almost two-thirds were here on work or student visas and permits. \u201CMany of these people will be recorded in our stats as \u2018short-term\u2019 arrivals when, in fact, they become residents for 12 months or more as a result of changes in their residence status once they are in New Zealand.\u201D What a sham! What a circus!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EJust last week, as stated in the Sunday Star-Times, 72 percent of the New Zealand population said they were against this immigration policy, yet the United Future party, on its way to political oblivion, comes out and backs it. It backs the policy of a Minister who repeats a lie. In today\u2019s document she says we are going to have various categories, making up 45,000 people, excepting that is what she said 2 years ago, and what are coming are not 45,000 but 72,000-plus. If we look at the categories\u2014skilled business, the family-sponsored stream, the international humanitarian stream\u2014we see there used to be a minus next to them; they used to be give or take 10 percent, plus or minus. There is no minus now. Now, in June 2003, there go the minuses, and we are going to have 75,000-plus people coming to this country, mainly to Auckland, where the roads are gridlocked, and everybody around the rest of New Zealand pays extra tax because of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhat did the United Future man say? He said that this is all good for our economy. It is just amazing how naive people can be. Let me ask him this question: if it is so good for our economy, why are we denying ourselves greater benefits? Why do we not have 275,000 immigrants? Why is Australia not doing that? Why is Australia growing much larger and faster than us? Why is it taking almost the same number of immigrants as us, although it is seven times larger? Why does the United States not do this, or Canada, or the UK, or Ireland? They do not do it, because they are not stupid. They are not sell-out merchants that deal to their civilization, their culture, in the way that these people are doing in allowing foreigners to colonise us from without. That is what is going on here. People who are just absolute\u2014I cannot use the word, but Quisling is the name of that man from the Second World War. I cannot use the word in this House, but it is a form of sell-out unlike any I have known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe member says this is good for the economy. Mr Maharey was written to by a woman from Birkenhead. She wanted to know how many immigrants are on sickness benefits, unemployment benefits, student allowances, and work schemes. She also wanted to know how many were being serviced by educational services, health services, or accident compensation, or were in State housing. She could not get one answer. This is what Mr Maharey said: \u201CThe Ministry of Social Development does not hold the information in a way that allows me to respond to your request.\u201D So why on earth is Business and Economic Research Ltd saying there will be a net benefit? It does not have the facts, either. The Minister will not give them to it. Statistics New Zealand does not keep records, for example, of criminality on the basis of country of origin. So how does Business and Economic Research Ltd know how many criminals are coming here? How does it know about Asian crime? It does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226e4b37534554998b043cf42b564c2c6\u0022\u003EJanet Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb2cd9120264c7c80fabbc41f9c6bb0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I know that member is embarrassed, but let me tell the lady from Gisborne that in 2 years\u2019 time, when the election is over, she will be gone; so will the United Future party. They will be gone on issues such as this. Although the bill says they have consulted all and sundry, they never consulted the M\u0101ori people and they never consulted the New Zealand people. Poll after poll says they are wrong, and they carry on regardless. In fact, I would like to know where those Labour Party M\u0101ori members are today. They are always talking about their tino rangatiratanga, their t\u016Brangawaewae, their land, and their country. Every day, those people sell it down the drain. Yes, they want the foreshore and they want the seabed, but there are no cockles at all in Cockle Bay today\u2014not one. It is amazing. Do members know what people call that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d98b8843fea4cdd94be9c018f6d0fb2\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Luigi, the Chinese member!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281bd2d52a8394b0283b2329031107879\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to \u201CSolar Dome\u201D that they call it treason. No amount of bluster on the part of the member from Dunedin is going to keep his job in Government. He will go within 2 years, or whenever the Prime Minister flies the white flag.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d86f81c2bf2446ead083ade6bb838c0\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member suggesting that members of this House are guilty of treason?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb8d38ba74c0420fb3289402b72efd14\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do. That is what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25b1d3dfcc444fea7ec4c4df28d23ee\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c3162fa96f44988d27509183ac91fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not out of order; it is totally appropriate, and that is why they did not object. I say to Mr Prebble that if the glove fits, they can wear it. Let me come to the point. In August last year, after the election, the Department of Labour\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8d3631763174e8ea6cc06731e40967f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is absolutely out of order to suggest that an honourable member of this House is committing treason. I was not sure whether the right honourable gentleman was saying that, but he told me that, yes, he was. I do not know which MPs he is saying were committing treason, but, whoever they are, that is not in order, and the member should be asked to withdraw and apologise\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022450c523661214aa1970111657c509719\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not hear that comment, but I take the member\u2019s word. I now ask the Rt Hon Winston Peters to stand, withdraw, and apologise for the use of that word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b6acd339026462ebbf8728774aced24\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Last August the Department of Labour\u2014the Minister\u2019s own officials\u2014presented her with an incoming briefing paper, after the election. By their own admission, every category of the immigration policy is a failure. Members should not believe New Zealand First; they should believe their own officials who were moved to say that every category was a failure. Now, 300,000 New Zealanders in this country, or people who call themselves New Zealanders or pose as New Zealanders, cannot speak English. The United Future party man said that this policy is great for New Zealand. I have asked him some fundamental questions. If the policy is so good, why not make it so much better by bringing in 275,000 people per year? The reality is that policy is nonsense. No other First World country pursues it. No other First World country would even entertain it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed801021a84436fb9312c1e8605a804\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the member allowing anyone, if this is such a bad place?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022324fb6b77cc04e5db152f7c7472860cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Every wise country has immigration policy designed around bringing in people the country needs, not those who need the country. A country should bring in skilled people, and it should make sure that immigration is not used to cover for it having failed to train, skill, and employ its own people first. It is that simple. A hundred thousand New Zealanders are out of work, yet we are bringing in tens of thousands of immigrants. Now we are heading towards, probably, 800,000 to a million within 20 years. We will have transformed this country in a way that no one would have contemplated, all because this Government, and others, could not run a sound policy to keep New Zealanders here, and were not concerned to train and employ their own people first. It is that simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI want to make it very clear that we will oppose this bill because it carries on the same immigration policy and failure that that woman Lianne Dalziel is infamous for. If members watch the Holmes show tonight, they will see a \u201Cpossum in the headlights\u201D show. She will be on the show, and members will see how pathetic she is when trying to defend herself against any reasonable debate. But she has parties like the United Future party in particular that, for what reason I cannot explain, back this policy, even though the people who voted for United Future are opposed as much as any New Zealand First voter is to this sort of immigration mayhem going on in this country. I cannot understand it, but, of course, I can tell those members that when the next election is held, they will be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E I seek leave to table the New Zealand Journal of Geography, April 2003, which shows a dramatic drop in immigration in 1997-98 under New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b07bad318f9448f862675956dab4b64\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbd8b36b26294f7a8fa1d66d156495d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbd8b36b26294f7a8fa1d66d156495d3\u0022\u003EJANET MACKEY (NZ Labour\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E Given that the member who has just resumed his seat was the Deputy Prime Minister in a Government that did bring immigrants into New Zealand and that failed to address the needs of many of those immigrants and to bring in immigrants who had the skills to match the skills shortages identified in this country, I would have thought he would be very pleased to support legislation targeted towards doing just that, so that New Zealand businesses have access to the skills they have identified they require, and so that those people who come to New Zealand have the opportunity to settle and live here and enjoy a decent standard of living.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00225b8bc975d44244708efd2c48fc81218a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b8bc975d44244708efd2c48fc81218a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E We have two immigration bills before the House. This one is the first of them, and I understand it is to go through the House under urgency. The way the Government is treating the House in respect of this bill is very unparliamentary. It is treating Parliament with contempt. There is no reason that the Minister could not have raised a ministerial statement. Indeed, she has waited until after question time to hold a meeting. I thought I was being summonsed to a meeting at the Immigration Service, but I found out that it was with the Associate Minister of Immigration. Meanwhile, the Minister went off to talk to the media. That shows that this Government\u2019s priorities are all about spin and media management, rather than about speaking to the House in a correct way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI shall deal with the first bill. No one has told us why it has to go through under urgency. I think the reason is that the service is saying it might be flooded with applications. Of course, every parliamentarian knows that that is a rubbish argument. All that the bill needed to do was include a clause stating that as from today the bill would take effect. That would mean that people filing an application would be told they were wasting their time, because it was the new rules that would apply. However, this Government does not want the House to examine even that measure. Why should we? The Minister says that 20,000 people are in the queue. Actually, another statement further on gives a number larger than that, and there might be some 40,000 people in the general-skills category. Those people may not be New Zealanders, but they have considered this country seriously enough to have gone to an immigration office to obtain forms and fill them out, pay money, and put their lives on hold, intending to come to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHow is this Government treating those people? It is treating them with absolute contempt. Members should make no mistake about that. The bill that is going through the House now will turn thousands of people\u2019s lives upside down. Can the Minister assure us she is doing that in a fair way? She has actually given us an assurance that she is not. If we read this measure properly, we see that those people who have paid their money cannot even appeal. Under the Fair Trading Act,one would be done for doing that. If people in business did what the Minister is about to do, they would be hauled in front of the courts. Indeed, because of the way those people have been treated, they might even go to jail. Have we been told that this legislation is so urgent that it has to be done that way? I have not heard that argument. New Zealand has a points system. Suddenly we are told by the Minister, who has been a Minister for 4 years, that she has discovered that the points system is a complete and utter mess. That is very interesting. It has been going since 1991. She has been a Minister for 4 years before suddenly discovering that fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aea289e209c941358992ffda29cb090b\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s changed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204f7f5d639ae4a18b863b4d4d7dc62d9\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, what has changed? I make this point to the Minister, as well. I looked up the Hansard debates of when the points system was introduced by Bill Birch. But before we blame the National Party, I point out that David Caygill\u2014a Labour member then\u2014got up and said he supported the points system. The Minister and other Government members might have been gracious enough to acknowledge that the National Government devised the points system. I do not say it invented it; it has been in place for many years in Australia and Canada. The points system is still in place in Australia and Canada. Suddenly, we are told that it does not work in New Zealand. Where is the real evidence? Yes, we find immigrants who do not fit in. However, hard cases do not make good law. We are to go back to an occupational system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI have been in this House long enough to remember that system, and I shall quote what a distinguished member of this House said about that. Let us take one example: the need for skilled labour. \u201CThe reality is that New Zealand wants and needs skilled and trades people to fill skills shortages in New Zealand.\u201D Even Winston Peters agrees with that statement. \u201CThose shortages exist, in spite of record unemployment, and, if they could be filled, would create jobs and productivity. The policy in its broadest sense does recognise that.\u201D He is talking about the old skills system that we will go back to. \u201CBut in practice, employers\u2019 efforts to recruit such people are hampered by a labyrinth of petty, bureaucratic procedures. They have to face an occupational priority list that is often irrelevant, always out of date, and fundamentally unable to respond to the complexities of the marketplace.\u201D I would like to talk to Aussie Malcolm.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2b36441dab439a8be7861763672795\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner break I made a number of points to the House. The first was to express my anger that the Government has treated the House so cavalierly. Over the dinner break I was talking with representatives of Business New Zealand and found out that they had been briefed well before MPs were, so had the media. Members of Parliament were briefed last, and then it was at a time when we could not ask any questions. Secondly, I expressed anger that this bill was going through under urgency. There is no validity to that argument. All it needs\u2014and any constitutional lawyer can tell members this\u2014is a clause saying that after 4 o\u2019clock today no applications will be considered under the old rules, and that is not retrospective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe are pushing through a bill without giving it proper scrutiny. I object to that. I point out that the Minister says that at least 20,000 people are affected by it. I think the figure is really 46,000. These are people who have paid their money and are interested enough in this country to have made an application to come here. Some have put their lives on hold for 2 years, only to have their applications cavalierly dismissed by this House. I am not convinced that they should not have been treated a great deal better, but I make this point to the House: those who do not know their history have to repeat it. The Minister has not given us anything like enough information on the questions. The form she has put out asks about relevant job offers. I ask her what that means. What is a relevant job? That means there must be irrelevant jobs. Who is to decide what a relevant job is? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309c3945b10542f584fbc01d39c69019\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The policy has the answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f18a0a8830c45748ca50a4a1c323cf2\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the policy is to be the answer. Obviously, the Minister has taken lessons from Parekura Horomia. What a nonsense! What is a policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f0773fcfbe45ed9c1598af8b14a96b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s already in the policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ae41dbff8354a7fa50a26c9a49fef6f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it sounds very much like an occupational priority list. That is what we used to have\u2014occupational priority lists. It was complete bureaucracy. One would find that a job out in the community was so extremely important that the Immigration Service officials had never heard of it. The Minister said that we want to stop consultants in this area. Well, the consultants just loved that. We also used to have people who went out and found jobs for new immigrants, who would then apply for the jobs and be given them. It used to be a racket, and we are to have that racket brought back by this Minister. She ought to stop and think about why both Labour and National decided against what she is now going to do. Why did Australia decide against it? Why did Canada decide against it? We will find out. But if the Minister thinks that the proposal is so good, why can we not send the bill to a select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6096d46e5674ff2bcc5a002c5c91fe5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: We are sending it to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd0e33e4ba747fea6c0c3589afd519c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the next immigration bill that is coming in under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1308c67ccfb4c1889153cdf58ca3694\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The next one is coming in under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e19d28c936c405f8ebdb5b4a5844112\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: OK, that is fair enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230be9967dcf64239bc24b0c003ac2a64\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I said that right at the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220097f11cfb254cf79c7f4402d3e7af81\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I missed that, because the Minister did not give us notice of when she was going to introduce it. It is part of the arrogance of the show. I went off to a meeting at 4 o\u2019clock, and then found that the Minister was speaking in the House. Again, that is treating the Opposition with contempt. So we are sending this immigration bill to the select committee, but not the next one. Why are we not sending both bills to the select committee? Why can the House not look at the legislation? This is an issue that affects the make-up of this country. Both bills should be going to a select committee. Instead, the Minister is treating us with contempt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022206450431cce4c7ba1b620b569139014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022206450431cce4c7ba1b620b569139014\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (NZ Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to support the first reading of the Immigration Amendment Bill, and its referral to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022203e7e1e6df1490482d3bd8aee9b152d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022203e7e1e6df1490482d3bd8aee9b152d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are very concerned about the Immigration Amendment Bill, which amends the process in the general skills category. However, we will support it to the select committee so that our concerns can be worked through in the appropriate forum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe current Immigration Service, in general, has some very serious problems. It has absolutely no reference to, or consideration of, Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the concerns of M\u0101ori as tangata whenua in this country. Nor does the immigration system take into account in any way the ecological constraints of the natural environment of this country\u2014issues such as the ideal ecological footprint, population protections, or policy. Those issues are crucial to the development of an immigration policy and process that is just to those who want to come to live here, meets the varied needs of the New Zealand population both now and in the future, and does not compromise ecological sustainability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe current system is entirely demand driven, based on economic drivers and not on the social and cultural needs of the whole New Zealand community. This new bill takes a \u201Cby invite only\u201D approach, rather than an approach entirely driven by demand. We can see at first instance how this new approach seems attractive. Greater emphasis on prioritisation of skill shortages is essential to make sure that we do not elevate applicants\u2019 expectations and that we are clear about the sorts of skills that are valuable to the country at any particular point in time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EA focus on regional employment is vital to encourage regional and community development away from the big city centres. It is also crucial that serious considerations are given to the conditions within which an immigrant and his or her family are to settle into community life, what personal resources are needed by them, and what other resources need to be provided to make the transition from one country to another a successful transition. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EHowever, the bill does not interpret these issues into an immigration framework that we consider appropriate. The Greens oppose a process by which some applicants are considered more worthy by a faceless, nameless official, and then shoulder-tapped to apply for residency. Under this bill, once a person meets the threshold he or she is eligible to be invited. It is an invitation issued entirely at the discretion of the Immigration Service, using criteria that are determined solely by it. Those criteria are not open to public scrutiny or assessment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe bill sets out only the very bare bones of the framework on which the criteria for the process will be hung. The community has absolutely no say on what those criteria are, or on how they are to be applied. There is no transparency or accountability to the New Zealand public, and, of course, M\u0101ori remain completely excluded from any input. It is this sort of secrecy in the immigration process that leads to ethnic conflict in our community. The failure to provide the public with any information about the process heightens uncertainty, and even fear. This in turn can lead to prejudice and a breakdown in community relationships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EAn immigration policy that is kept from the public and for which there is no public accountability is not conducive to healthy ethnic relations in the country or to the ready settlement of immigrants in the community. Similarly, the lack of accountability opens further the opportunity for corruption and discrimination in the process of deciding who is to be invited to reside here and who is not. This is a very real concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThere is a history in this country of treating immigrants, particularly those of colour, with racist disdain. We need look only at the Citizenship (Western Samoa) Act, under which, contrary to human rights, Western Samoans, many who came here, initially at the behest of various Governments, to work in unskilled menial jobs, were stripped of their citizenship. Of course, many members will remember more clearly than I the dawn raids of the 1970s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ENothing in this bill provides any protection to those applicants who may have been denied an invitation to apply because of some discriminatory view by the Immigration Service and its officials. I am not necessarily, either, talking about individuals, but of the institutional racism that is both pervasive and hidden throughout a wide variety of institutions in this country. In the past, the Greens have criticised the raising of the English language level test, out of a very real concern that the test selects for native English-language speakers, thereby limiting the range of countries from which immigrants are deemed eligible. There is also the real concern in this bill about immigrants being discriminated against because of their country of origin and their political, social, or religious beliefs. There is no protection against those concerns. The bill goes even further towards restricting the rights of applicants to appeal the decisions of the Immigration Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens can appreciate the drive to change the general business skills category and the problems that this legislation is intended to address, but there are serious flaws that undermine the opportunity for a just and transparent process in which the New Zealand public can have confidence. We will support the bill to the select committee in order to raise these and other issues, and then we will see how far we can get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u002211cef3658881490baea884027dfa3481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211cef3658881490baea884027dfa3481\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (NZ Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to the first reading of the Immigration Amendment Bill, which seeks to reflect the Government\u2019s commitment to an ongoing and stable immigration programme. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef3bfd61343240ff96873a92670fc5a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef3bfd61343240ff96873a92670fc5a5\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The only cold comfort to the Hon Richard Prebble and myself is that there are MPs who are treated even worse than Opposition MPs\u2014and they are Government back-benchers. That fact has been demonstrated by the last two Labour MPs who stood up. They know absolutely nothing about the bill, and therefore had nothing to say. I know why the Labour Government decided to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60111a6187f4184b3b45635f4b88981\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a4da5d10d7547aa9f2d7137f56d3fcc\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: That member should take a call. The senior whip always chips away, but he never takes a call to say anything worthwhile. If he has anything worthy to say, we will listen to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI know why the Labour Government rushed this bill, which is going to the Foreign Affairs, Defence, and Trade Committee, under urgency. The bill was brought in to take all the attention away from the second piece of legislation, which the Government wants to pass through all stages to legislate away the New Zealand Immigration Association\u2019s victory. The association took the Government to court and won the case, so the Government is going to legislate away the fruits of victory. This bill was introduced to take attention away from that second piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Minister wanted to tell the public that she had consulted, and that all groups were happy with the bill. Well, I talked to the chairman of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment, and members might be interested to know how the Minister\u2019s consultation process actually works. Last night at 7.30 the chairman of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment was rung by the manager of the New Zealand Immigration Service, who asked to meet him at the airport at 3.30 p.m. the next day to discuss some general immigration policy issues. That is the type of consultation that the Labour Government finds satisfactory. I think it falls well short of what people would consider good consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI was surprised. Three years ago, I thought that the Minister of Immigration enjoyed a good relationship with the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment. She promised the association that she would work with it on a partnership basis and have open dialogue. I wonder when the relationship went sour. I wonder whether it had anything to do with the fact that the association actually dared to take the Minister to court and won the case. I think the Labour Government has demonstrated that it will only look after those who never speak or vote against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOf course, it is well known now that Opposition MPs were briefed at 4.15 p.m.\u2014at the same time that the Minister of Immigration was fronting up to the media conference, and that the poor Associate Minister, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, was given the hard task of explaining to the Opposition MP what this legislation was all about. I asked him a very simple question. I said: \u201CMinister can you explain to us what you mean when you say that the Government will invite potential migrants to apply. Are you actually going to disclose in total how those migrants who end up in the pool are actually invited to apply?\u201D He looked across to his advisors and said: \u201CI think it is up to the discretion of the Minister and the immigration officials.\u201D That is true. When I looked through the bill, it said that the question of whether to issue, or revoke such an invitation once issued, was at the discretion of the Minister, or subject to any special direction given under the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFor once\u2014and it is a rare occasion\u2014I agree with the Green Party. This change will open the door to corruption. Let us make no mistake about it\u2014this bill is opening the door for groups that would have the ear of the Labour Minister of Immigration and immigration officials, because there is no transparency in the process. Who are the lucky ones who are invited to apply? I have looked through this legislation carefully. [Interruption] If that member would stop chipping away and listen, he might actually learn something. He should stop being a doormat and examine his party\u2019s legislation. There is a serious issue at stake. This legislation opens the door to corruption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this bill, I see that the wording used is that the legislation will be flexible and effective. Under the current immigration points system, two other words appear: transparent and objective. Under the current points system, the criteria are transparent and objective. Under this so-called migration policy, transparency and objectivity go out the door. I challenge the members of the Green Party to vote like the National Party, and vote against this first bill. They should vote against it because of the process. I think it is an absolute disgrace to introduce a bill without giving members of Parliament, including Labour members themselves, any notice, so that they can come to grips with it. This policy will totally bury those criteria of objectivity and transparency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to ask a question, because the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor failed to answer it during the briefing session. The Hon Richard Prebble raised the issue of relevant jobs. Let us reflect on one example. If there is a need for builders, one could argue that builders who might not have a tertiary education but who are on the priority list, might be invited to apply. Let us consider that a builder from Britain or South Africa would be able to apply just on the priority of a relevant job offer, but a builder from a non-English speaking country, like China, Malaysia, or even India, would have to pass 6.5 points of English language requirement. In 1987 the once-proud Labour Party claimed that it had legislated away immigration policy based on race. Today is a day of shame, because the Labour Government has introduced legislation that states that job requirements are the top priority but, boy, it wants to see job applicants only from English-speaking countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFor generations, Chinese and other ethnic communities have come here, worked hard, and continued to put up with Labour Ministers and MPs going to functions and saying: \u201CYou are the type of migrant we want.\u201D In effect, the Hon Chris Carter would bring along a translator to translate those welcoming speeches into Chinese\u2014then go into the House and put up the English language requirement! National will not support race-based legislation that is lacking in transparency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002280ddeb14bdaf4b5bacca14b536cfb229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280ddeb14bdaf4b5bacca14b536cfb229\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E After that speech, it is not hard to see why 26 members of the National Party found it necessary to be at a caucus committee meeting somewhere else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI believe that this piece of legislation is a very good move on behalf of the Government to take a comprehensive look at immigration policy for the first time in about 10 years. The aim is to get some meaningful match-up between people who want to make New Zealand their home, and also make sure that there is a win-win for both the migrant coming into New Zealand and what we are trying to do against the growth and innovation framework. It is a very good move, and I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022df532b52047c432fbdff87d7f8caedc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df532b52047c432fbdff87d7f8caedc9\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First): \u003C/span\u003EDuring all the months that I have been in this House\u2014almost a year again, now\u2014New Zealand First has been saying that this Government\u2019s immigration policy is in absolute disarray and that it does not know what it is doing. We have put forward to the Government cases of corruption. We have said that the whole system needs to be reorganised, and that the Minister does not know what she is doing and she ought to resign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill is clear evidence that everything we have been saying is right. All that is left is for the Minister to go. Of course, one cannot get a word in when the Minister is in the House, on television, or anywhere. She tries to run roughshod over everybody\u2019s right of speech. She can go elsewhere and talk over everybody else she likes, but as far as New Zealand First is concerned she will not do it in this House while New Zealand First members are speaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe failure that is inherent in the bill before us is the fact that the Government wants to move away from the very basic structure, from a points system, to an occupation-based system. Government members want to rush the bill through the House under urgency, without laying it on the Table for 3 days, which is usual, and without members being able to have a better look at it. That is a totally unconstitutional way of handling this matter, and I join with other members of Parliament who take that view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course it is a great shame, but not a surprise, that United Future joins the Labour Party in this way. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f0fec615f004584879c382d840be79b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ce074d5d88b45e9a96b345dd6a618b2\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It is no problem to me, I cannot hear the member anyway because I am talking so loudly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as United Future is concerned, it is disappointing that all its members did in this debate was read out speeches prepared on their behalf by someone in the spin doctor\u2019s office, and they read them very well. It took exactly 10 minutes, as was planned, but I do not think they fully understood what they were doing. But clearly, as part of the coalition, they are willing to see the New Zealand system falling apart under this dreadful Minister of Immigration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt does not come as a surprise, of course, to anyone in New Zealand to find the Labour Party introducing this legislation. We know, from so much experience, that the Labour Party spends tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, on getting various research polls undertaken. When Labour members see a poll that shows their policy is not right, what do they do? They bring in new legislation. They bring in a bill, change the policy, say that they will legislate in one particular way or another, and if that does not work they change their policy once more. That is what they have done here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt was very, very clear when McCann-Erickson did the poll for the Human Rights Commission. It showed the Labour Party\u2019s immigration policy in absolute disarray\u2014it was an absolute failure. What did Labour members do? They had a knee-jerk reaction and brought this legislation into the House, not just in an ordinary way but under urgency. It is good that the bill is going to a select committee, and of course, New Zealand First voted to make sure it will go to a select committee. The next bill, the Immigration Amendment Bill (No. 2), will not have that luxury of course, but it is good that this bill is going to a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the greatest problems with this legislation will be the issue of corruption. The Green Party member said that, as did the National Party speaker. Those of us who are familiar with the way in which corruption works\u2014and I am an immigrant from Asia\u2014know that bribing officials to have one\u2019s case moved up the list is the classic example of corruption working. There was an instance many years ago in the land titles office in Auckland where someone tried to beat the system and have the deposit of a land title given priority. The land titles office squashed that, and made sure they were done on a first come first served basis. If one tries to juggle a system by juggling people\u2019s priorities, the obvious complaint made of the Government department will be that X\u2019s case was moved to the top of the list because X knew the Minister, or even worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the best things about being in New Zealand\u2014and I think every immigrant to New Zealand would appreciate this, especially if he or she comes from a country such as Pakistan, which must be one of the most corrupt countries in the world\u2014is that there is no corruption in New Zealand, and no possibility of corruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022890de4a6fe0a4d7cbde53e88b59eee5b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Use Tuariki John Delamere\u2019s corruption!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022163654d4e828484787abf1e40f2a3837\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister would repeat that statement about Tuariki John Delamere outside this House, instead of hiding under parliamentary privilege, which she has done up till now, maybe it would be a different story. What she has done is an example of corruption in the sense that, having made that statement, she is hiding in the House. She will not repeat it elsewhere, free from parliamentary privilege. She may well duck her head now. I have no time for what Mr Delamere is doing. But if the Minister is going to make a complaint about him, she should do it free from parliamentary privilege and not hide and skulk in a select committee and try to get a cheap jibe at somebody who is only doing something that may be legal; even if it is, broadly speaking, referred to as a scam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons New Zealand First is opposing this legislation is that it does nothing for the massive increase in immigration to New Zealand. As I said to the Minister\u2014and I had to explain this to her more than once at the Finance and Expenditure Committee the other day\u2014on the question of immigration to New Zealand, the report in the April 2003 edition of the New Zealand Journal of Geography, prepared by very eminent professors from Waikato University, made the clear point that: \u201CIn total, 190,000 people, including international students, were approved for permanent and temporary residence in the year ended June 30th , 2002.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Labour Minister of Immigration now bandies about the figure of 52,000 as the immigration figure. But, on the figures of the New Zealand Immigration Service in this report, the number of people we had to bear in 2002, as people living in this country in any one year\u2014and next year up it will go again\u2014was 190,000. Of those, 63,500 were admitted under temporary work policies, 73,800 were admitted on student visas and permits, and the balance was in the immigrant category. There are more people coming into New Zealand outside the immigrant category than there are within the immigrant category. They tend to stay here, and, as the report states, they are hardly here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe next section of the report states that in the year ended 30th June 2002, for example: \u201CAlmost two-thirds of New Zealand\u2019s approvals for residence were granted to people who applied while they were in New Zealand\u201D\u2014part of this, another 140,000\u2014\u201Con temporary work or student visas and permits.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course, on top of all of this we will have people invited here. If one starts inviting people to New Zealand, does one get a little card? How does it happen? \u201CThe Honourable Minister, Lianne Dalziel, hereby invites you to come to New Zealand.\u201D How do these people get chosen? Well, those were the Minister\u2019s words, and those were United Future\u2019s words. These people will be invited to New Zealand. How does it work? It is wide open to corruption. The numbers that we are concerned about are still going up. There is no suggestion on the Minister\u2019s part that the numbers will decrease. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe have seen from the recent Business and Economic Research Ltd report, and in particular from the regional dimension\u2014and I speak as an Auckland list member of Parliament who stood in Helensville and who has had 9 years as a constituency MP\u2014that the regional dimension of the impact of immigrants is overwhelmingly dominated by the impact on Auckland, defined as the four territorial local authorities. The overseas border counts for 34 percent of Auckland\u2019s resident population, compared with 20 percent for the whole of New Zealand. Auckland has to bear the brunt of all these immigrants. When I came back to Wellington last year and walked down Lambton Quay, I felt that very little had changed. It was much the same Lambton Quay as it was in 1984. I invite those people who are in Wellington to come to Auckland and walk up and down Queen Street, and they will certainly get a different view of Auckland from what it was in 1984.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe problem is that so many people are being let into the country, and they come here not knowing that they will have to face criticism. They have to bear the responsibility and blame for the excessive problems of motorways. I see that the Labour Government, and its supporter Transit New Zealand, has cut the grant for motorways in Auckland. The region has gone down in the list, from where it was before, and only three of the top 10 projects in Auckland will be worked on. We have seen a roading cut in Auckland, despite the fact that immigrants overwhelmingly dominate the Auckland area. We saw on tonight\u2019s television programme the effects of overcrowding, and delays in the hospital system. In Auckland we see a never-ending delay for State houses, and we get complaints that all the waiting lists are dominated by immigrants. That is very unfair on immigrants. These are people who, effectively, are invited here, as one might say in a broad way. They come to New Zealand, and then find they are blamed by political parties for the vast problems they create, but these problems can be laid at the feet of this Labour Minister of Immigration. We oppose this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022185aa7e9ba7c48bf9771618fbd4dd0de\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future; 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c36e940aaed241e3807926ced55a24d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c36e940aaed241e3807926ced55a24d6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Amendment Bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and that the committee have authority to meet on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, and during an evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b) and (c), and that the committee report back to the House on or before 25 August 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c8f3d17d473f46579cf10fc4d78eb60a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9ddfd837c5d4010af314cadc45180f9\u0022\u003EImmigration Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002203bcba48ea964e24800979b2a5b25979\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022af65563548fb48f49eacc4bb082c9f01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af65563548fb48f49eacc4bb082c9f01\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time. This bill will not be referred to a select committee, as it is my intention to move its passage through all stages under urgency. This bill amends the Immigration Act to make it clear that the New Zealand Immigration Service can prioritise the order in which immigration applications are decided, and it contains provisions for lapsing the lower-ranking general skills category applications that are currently awaiting decisions. This bill will help to ensure that the Government\u2019s immigration outcome objectives are met, by prioritising applicants with the best prospects of making a positive contribution to New Zealand and settling well. The provisions in this bill support and complement changes to the legislative framework for Government residence policy, contained in the Immigration Amendment Bill, which we have just referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EGlobal prioritisation will enable residence applicants, with, for example, high contribution and settlement potential, to be given early consideration. This will help New Zealand to maximise the outcomes that can be achieved from immigration policy in what is the interim period, by prioritising on a global basis applications from those most likely to contribute to New Zealand and settle well. They will be decided first, rather than those who have lodged their application in a particular branch that may have more capacity or residence approval places available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThese provisions are needed because of the high number of general skills category residence applications that are currently on hand waiting to be decided, including many applicants who are unlikely to succeed here. Many of the applicants\u2014up to 3,000 of them\u2014are in the country at the moment. Many of them have relevant job offers under existing policy. This means that their applications for residence can be dealt with now\u2014immediately\u2014rather than having to wait for applications that have been in the pipeline for a very long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reality is that this is the section of the bill that does have retrospective impact. The retrospective impact deals with the lapsing provisions. These lapsing provisions relate to certain applications made under the general skills category that are on hand awaiting consideration. The policy itself sets out very clearly which of the applicants will in fact be lapsed. Applications made before 20 November 2002, which have low settlement and contribution potential, and made by applicants with relevant job offers and high point-scores, will still be considered for approval. So this is certainly not a case of disposing of all of the applications that have been received under this category. In fact, it is about prioritising those that meet the intent of our immigration policy and of our skilled migration policy. It is about prioritising those, with the rest being lapsed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHigh demand for residence over and above the number of places available in the New Zealand immigration programme has resulted in a queue of general skills category applications, and, without a mechanism to lapse some of those applications, the positive impact of skilled immigration policy changes designed to improve immigration outcomes\u2014both for New Zealand and for new migrants\u2014would be delayed for at least 2 years. Lapsing some lower-ranking applications currently queued will enable the remainder of applications with high contribution and settlement potential to be decided as a priority. This includes those applications involving opportunities in New Zealand that are available for a limited time. For example, when an employer has offered a position that must be taken up by a certain date, it is important that those applications are considered quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill clarifies that lapsed applicants off shore will not have a right to seek a judicial review of the lapsing decision. It is common practice for access to judicial review not to be available to people who are outside the country. All lapsed applicants will receive a refund of the application fee paid, and I think that people need to understand that that was the basis for the appropriation that has been made to support this legislation. Just over $9 million has been set aside for the return of application fees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI know that many of the lapsed applicants will be disappointed, but the question that I had to ask myself was this: what is better\u2014lapsing the application and giving applicants back the money they had paid, or inviting them to travel all the way to New Zealand to find when they got here that they had nothing to offer New Zealand, and New Zealand had nothing to offer them? That is the reality of the previous general skills category, which gave a right to residence based on a set number of points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn addition, the bill addresses the distinction between Government immigration policy and Government residence policy. That has arisen as a result of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment court case, but does not overrule the decision of the court in terms of retrospective application. I want to be clear about that. It is a provision that is forward looking and enables me to cancel the job-search visa provisions, which, as a result of the High Court decision, have been caught up in Government residence policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHaving read the Cabinet paper that guided the National Party when it introduced the policy in respect of job-search visas, and the advice that I received in confirming that policy when I became the Minister, I can assure the House that the use of the job-search visa for people to take up residence on the basis of unskilled and semi-skilled jobs was never intended. The Cabinet paper is explicit in that regard. Nor was it ever seen or intended to be seen as an integral part of residence policy. The ability to decline an application for a job-search visa matched temporary entry policy, not Government residence policy, which is why it was non-transferable and non-renewable. There was a 6-month period of an open work permit to look for the points required for residence under a system that automatically approved residence on the passing of an ever-changing level of points. It was more like a limited purpose visa, because it could not be translated into anything other than the residence permit if a job offer was able to be obtained, yet it has become entangled in Government residence policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill does three things: it confirms the global prioritisation approach to considering applications, it lapses those that do not meet the priority criteria, and it confirms the distinction between Government immigration policy and Government residence policy. I do want to make a point in respect of those who say that they speak on behalf of immigration consultants in this country. I have just received an email from somebody who describes himself as being the director of the largest immigration firm handling migration to New Zealand or Australia from Europe. He states: \u201CFrom an initial perusal of the information, I can confirm that due to our company\u2019s very strong in-house settlement and recruitment programme, we foresee little effect on the majority of our clients\u2019 overall eligibility to emigrate to New Zealand, and we shall start tomorrow to incorporate the changes into our firm\u2019s procedure and advice. Such changes to regulation and statute have little negative consequence for applicants who are in a strong position to start a new life in New Zealand. Our 25 staff in Christchurch, five staff in London, six staff in Amsterdam, and five staff in Australia will commence work tomorrow on placing into effect the Government\u2019s changes.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EA number of people have spoken out in favour of the changes we are making, and I can certainly tell the House that I agree with this statement: \u201CWe insist on a clean and well-defined system of immigration which is beneficial to New Zealand and New Zealanders, not the kind of policy that looks at quantity and not quality. We really don\u2019t care where the immigrants come from, so long as they are able to integrate into our society, be gainfully employed, and contribute to economic development.\u201D So said Mr Winston Peters, and I support that. This legislation makes that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00229988e90db13d4933b4e93bb17d8b5564\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229988e90db13d4933b4e93bb17d8b5564\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E The question that will be on the lips of those who have listened to the Minister\u2019s introductory comments, and also listened to the earlier debate, is what is the Government trying to hide here? What is the Government trying to pull the wool over the eyes of Parliament and the public about, with this measure? As I said in relation to the earlier bill, this is not a measure that has been paraded with great fanfare by the Prime Minister and other Ministers through the normal routes prior to it coming to the House. This is a measure that the Government has snuck into the House under urgency, and that it now expects the House to deal with through all stages. I ask the Minister what the justification for that urgency for all stages of this bill was in her speech. There was none. What we got was a decent load of political flannel from a Minister who is essentially trying to do a retrospective tidying-up after many months of neglect and incompetence in the management of her portfolio. [Interruption] The chief Government whip might well say why he was complicit in this cover-up as well. He was the one who was trying to shepherd politicians from other political parties to go to some trumped-up briefing being held by officials from the Immigration Service over in the Minister\u2019s suite this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f31983069324ed99b969e4f93845b31\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: They never asked us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7cfe37f96a64a61bf4e1b07d16a4f21\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: They did not invite Mr Peters? That was a very serious oversight. Mr Benson-Pope should take note that the Rt Hon Winston Peters should be on his invitation list next time he is going to hold a briefing of this sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI want to say to that chief Government whip\u2014who is a smart alec beyond all smart alecs in the House\u2014that that member had better get used to the fact that if he is going to try those sorts of cheap political tricks as he introduces legislation into this House under urgency, expecting it to go through all stages, he will find he will have to work a lot harder for his money than he has so far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe concern I have about this legislation is that it is fundamentally challenging the expectations that people are entitled to have when they do a deal with the New Zealand Government, and the Minister did not give us good and sufficient reason\u2014and she has plenty more stages of the bill to go through to try to earn her keep\u2014for the retrospective legislation that is currently before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI want to put it to the House that it is pretty simple. The Minister had some months. She had a briefing document when she was appointed Minister, she was given some advice by her officials, she had plenty of opportunity to change the criteria at that stage, and she did nothing. She did nothing, and much later in the piece\u2014I give credit to Mr Peters here; one might regard his motives as good or bad, but he put the blowtorch on her\u2014the Minister engaged in a panic reaction. I have seen the paperwork that went to the Cabinet, which she delayed releasing under the Official Information Act as long as she possibly could. It demonstrated that there was not a good and proper analysis, and a good and proper process, around the changes that were made. It showed me quite clearly that it was simply a panic reaction because Mr Peters put the blowtorch on her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EWhether Mr Peters was right or wrong, I say to the Minister that it was quite wrong for her to embark on major changes to the immigration policy of New Zealand, affecting the future make-up of our country, our growth prospects, and everything else, on the basis of a knee-jerk, panic reaction. And now we have a Minister who was taken to the High Court by one of the interested groups involved, and had Justice Randerson deliver a judgment of some 64 pages, which I have had a look at. I refer the Minister in particular to page 31, in which he basically says the Minister had no legal authority for what she did. Not only was she engaging in a panic political reaction because Mr Peters put the blowtorch on her, but also she got it wrong in law. She did not actually do her homework about what her legal authority was, and she did not take any decent advice. Members just have to read page 31 of Justice Randerson\u2019s judgment to see that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Minister thought \u201COh well, there is a bit of a problem here.\u201D, so she announced on 17 June 2003 that she was going to appeal this case to the Court of Appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E I have a copy of that press release here, which states: \u201CGovernment to appeal immigration case\u201D. The Minister called a press conference, put out a press statement, and told the nation\u2019s media and the public that Justice Randerson was wrong and that the Government was going along to the Court of Appeal, which would put it right. The Court of Appeal would prove the Government and the Minister right. Today, under cover of urgency and a last-minute briefing of some political parties\u2014but not others\u2014we have a bill introduced to the House that is designed to do what Justice Randerson would not do in the High Court, and what the Court of Appeal, most assuredly, would not have done on the basis of the shonky case that that Minister would have taken to the Court of Appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to members of the public who are tuned in to this, and those who are interested in immigration policy generally, that we should cut through the political flannel and all the weasel words of the Minister in charge of the bill, Lianne Dalziel, and just focus on a couple of things here. The Minister has engaged in an accumulating series of political bungles. She finally got caught out and had to make some retrospective changes, and finally had the High Court say that she could not do legally what she wanted to do. She said that she would appeal to the Court of Appeal and now knows that she has not got a hope in hell of winning in that court, so she is here tonight asking nicely whether Parliament will kindly pass this bill through all its stages under urgency. I say to the Minister that that is sheer cheek, and if she had any good faith in this matter, she would have approached the Opposition parties and told us that she knew she had made a mess but New Zealand would suffer unless we do something to tidy up the mistakes she had made, and that she was asking for our indulgence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIf she had done that, I would have had a look at it. I am sure Mr Peters, if he had been invited to the briefing and if he had had an opportunity to indulge the Minister in that way, would have given it very careful and thoughtful consideration; and that Mr Prebble, who is known as one of the most reasonable members of the House and a man who brings a fine legal mind to these matters, would have weighed up the political embarrassment of the Minister, on the one hand, and the need to tidy up the affairs of New Zealand\u2019s important immigration policy, on the other. I am sure that sheer sweet reason would have appealed to his judgment in this matter, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EBut that is not what the Minister has done. The Minister has gone along behind closed doors and done some shabby little deal with the United Future party, which has somehow managed to find its way to the presiding officers of Parliament but nowhere else. That party is now being cut in on the Government\u2019s speaking time on this legislation under urgency, while we shamelessly try to rectify the foolish mistakes that this Minister has made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to United Future that this will not be forgotten, if those members want to cooperate with such a stupid, shameless exercise in covering up for the incompetence of that Minister. This is a measure that that Minister will need to justify clause by clause to the House and to the Committee of the whole House as she insists on taking this legislation through all its stages over the next day or two. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say that these are important matters of principle. The principle of not passing retrospective legislation is an important one. It is overridden by Parliament from time to time for good reasons, and the Minister needs to front up with those reasons. If she wants to plead good reason on this occasion, she also needs to apologise. She needs to come clean with the House about the mistakes and the foolish errors she made that got her ruled against by the High Court. She needs to apologise for telling the country, the media, and Parliament on 17 June that she had a solution to her woes that was to be found in the Court of Appeal, and that she has now had some advice that proves that that is not the case. I say that that Minister will have to do a good deal better if she wants us to pass over that principle of not passing retrospective legislation, on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022e8e4ccc763b94a52860ea4ce3e64606a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e8e4ccc763b94a52860ea4ce3e64606a\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I was becoming a little worried after my last speech, when Winston Peters climbed into me, so I thought I had better check New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy. I was most surprised when I saw that it states: \u201CTo give greater priority to immigrants who have the skills and qualifications necessary to further regional economic and social goals.\u201D I thought that was what we were doing here: developing a population policy that integrates immigration policy and economic policy. Here I am, a poor new MP, getting climbed into, and wondering what the problem is here. Winston Peters complains that the current immigration policy is not working. I thought that if something did not work, we were supposed to fix it. Winston Peters admitted in the debate on the first reading of the Immigration Amendment Bill that we need to bring in skilled migrants to meet the needs of the country. I agree with that; I am short of mechanics myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe first thing tonight about the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) is that it must be viewed in conjunction with the Immigration Amendment Bill that we debated earlier today. This bill is the first practical stage in the Government\u2019s new policy for skilled migrants. The bill covers two groups of migrants. To start with, the bill aims to prioritise the general skills category applications that are currently in the system, of which there are about 20,000, representing approximately 46,000 people. As soon as the bill is passed, those with a job offer relevant to their skills, or with high points, will be prioritised in the queue. The applications currently in the system of those who do not have a relevant job offer or sufficient points will lapse, and their fee will be refunded. That will not affect those who already have a job search visa, or those whose residence decision is imminent, although the Immigration Service will no longer invite people to apply for a job search visa in order to get a relevant offer of employment in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe current backlog represents almost 2 years of potential approvals under the general skills category, and although many of those applications meet the minimum points requirement, only 57 percent had relevant job offers in the last year. Many of those who have applied are already in New Zealand on work permits, or came here to look for work before they applied. I underline the point that people will still be free to do that. In fact, their experience in New Zealand would count in their favour should they subsequently receive a job offer and apply for residency. I see that Mr Peters is now starting to recognise how great this bill is. Sixty-two percent of the principal applicants approved for residence in 2002-03 have previously held a student, work, or visitor permit at some stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe bill is also intended to manage the number of general skills applications that the Immigration Service is bound to receive between the introduction of the bill today and the implementation of the new policy. Every time immigration policy changes, a flood of applications is immediately lodged in an effort to be considered under the old policy, before the new one comes into full effect. From 1 July, principal applicants must have a job offer relevant to their skills or qualifications. That is entirely consistent with the intent of the Immigration Amendment Bill we debated earlier, and ensures that everyone will be treated in the same way. It is also the reason that this bill must go through all stages today: to stop one group of applicants from using the window of opportunity presented by the normal legislative process to submit their applications under the old rules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThis bill is about prioritisation, but the side effect of that will be to let the applications of those who do not have a job offer lapse. The Immigration Service cannot take the top candidates at the bottom of the pile without letting lapse the applications of those who have no immediate prospect of getting a job. We do not want to miss out on the opportunity to bring in qualified and experienced migrants who already have a skilled job to come to. The number of applications on hand has to be managed, so that there is no danger of exceeding the places available in the programme. Expressions of interest will lapse on a regular basis\u2014probably quarterly\u2014to ensure that the pool of applicants does not become a queue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EPrevious speakers have already argued against the rapid nature of this change and the introduction of these two bills under urgency, but it must be remembered that the Immigration Amendment Bill has passed its first reading only. It will go through the normal select committee process at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and there will be further opportunities to debate it in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce4cbe8235bb45eba2f3c7fa1368a01e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, it will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cefa5b2f58d4d7284153814b7907f48\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct. As for the interim bill that we are currently debating\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efae0bac798c409e93b1b6ef632c61f1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It is not going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b926e4a9247942d181b51963b3d50ee8\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: As for the interim bill we are currently debating, I say to Mr Peters, given its alignment with the primary bill, I think the experience of the next few months will greatly inform the select committee about how the shift in policy will work in practice. For example, the select committee may want to look at whether the idea of lapsing unsuccessful applicants after 3 months is workable and fair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAnother point to reiterate is that there will be no significant change in the number of people who gain residency here. There is essentially a new filter in the application process, because the Government is inviting people to apply. But only the number of applications provided for in the New Zealand Immigration Programme will be considered. That number remains at 45,000, with 60 percent of it set aside for skilled migrants, and that will continue for the next 3 years. If anything, the approval process should be much faster than it is now, but the total number will remain stable and predictable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ETo conclude, this bill prioritises those currently on the list who already have job offers, rather than those who do not have a job and could end up on the dole. I think that most New Zealanders would find that pretty hard to argue against, but I guess we will find out shortly whether that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002249e0527d1bd24fa3a06abf699a554d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249e0527d1bd24fa3a06abf699a554d3f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very interesting speech\u2014I thought so when the member made the same speech on the other bill before teatime, and I still think so, but it was on the wrong bill. I tell Mr Adams that the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) is not going to a select committee; it will be rammed through all its stages tonight, with United Future\u2019s help. Here we are, in the dead of night, with no forewarning at all\u2014no notice whatsoever\u2014with the Government ramming retrospective legislation through this House, without any recourse whatsoever to a select committee or to the public of this country. Mr Adams and\u2014[Interruption] What are they called? United Future members? I thought they were called lapdogs, but let us not mind that. The United Future party will back this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDid anybody see the Holmes show tonight? What a joke it was. There was bluster, bluff, and blarney, with everybody trying to talk over everybody else, and Mr Milnes said we have had 15 months of mess. Those are not my words or the words of New Zealand First, but the words of an immigration expert. Then came the big you-know-what\u2014then came the big porky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642192a9e6c641d3a7360de07039297d\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Porky isn\u2019t here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e067c862f6a94b69bbbeb03f06fd9acb\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about another porky, not the member. The reality is this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b06ed1b5f7c480aab27281e1c5dc0d7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The word \u201Cporky\u201D has been ruled out of order by Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c389a4e780044021b98916bcbc5d10bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Then came another you-know-what, meaning that what was said was at variance with the truth. The interviewer asked the Minister whether she was bringing in this bill because she had lost a court case, and do members know what the Minister said? On national television she said no, when everybody here in this House knows that this bill is here because she lost the court case. She said in mid-June that she would go to a higher court and appeal the decision. Then, of course, somebody with decent qualifications came along and told the Minister her understanding of the law was slightly wrong, and she would waste the taxpayers\u2019 money if she went to the Court of Appeal or the Privy Council. The Minister was told that she would lose all the way. That is why we have this retrospective bill\u2014and this comes from the party that went around saying New Zealand First was a terrible party because it was saying awful things about immigrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI will tell the Government what New Zealand First would not do: we would not go and take away people\u2019s legal rights\u2014that is the first thing we would not do\u2014unlike the embarrassed Minister. [Interruption] I tell her that there is no use in getting nervous, with that high-pitched laugh. It states in the explanatory note of the bill that clause 5 \u201Censures that past prioritisation of the processing of applications for visas and permits cannot be challenged in the courts.\u201D\u2014she hopes! The Minister has no idea, but she hopes that it cannot be challenged in the courts. How many Ministers of Immigration have been along to the High Court in such a spectacular way? Then she became vindictive, and retrospectively moved against not one but 20,000 people of whom she had said she was the great defender. And 20,000 is a stab in the dark, as well. Now she has the classic provision whereby she will have decisions made by her discretion, or by that of an appropriately delegated immigration or visa officer. If ever I saw an invitation for corruption to occur, that is it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDo members know what clause 3 of the bill states? Members will love that clause. It states that in no circumstances does a decision on the issue or grant of a temporary or a limited purpose visa or permit constitute a decision under Government residence policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e9c6ce3f9c649709593be3b0da1edd9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f92a80016f94488198e09f2f4bea9119\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is what she says. I ask the Minister why, if this is the way it should be, she did not tell us 2 years ago that we would have 45,000 people coming here\u2014and 2 months ago it was 72,800.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e120a5237eaa49959caa7e0dcf51303f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It was not 72,800.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220649beedce1143a4bf1254f062985335\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes it was, and there is no use in getting hysterical about that, because the figures are all out there from the Department of Statistics. They were gleaned by a professor from Waikato University, and no one has disputed them before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMy real question is to the M\u0101ori members\u2014those tigers on the marae.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e7d4c8bf14f4d7183893ff62efc8a56\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Where?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da6db47c44b14649ae54a6002f6b2c3b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. They are always talking tino rangatiratanga, and say the party listens to the M\u0101ori caucus. They have a Minister and a party that is bringing in more people from Asia than the M\u0101ori population in the next 10 years alone. The Government will bring in more Asians than the M\u0101ori population, which has been here for 1,000 years, in just 10 years, and those M\u0101ori members over there on the Government benches will back that. So I ask them, please, not to talk to me about tino rangatiratanga, and the foreshore and land rights, when they know full well that if they go to Cockle Bay today they will not get one cockle, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290951222e8714f359100638a5e7d4f8e\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What do they call the beach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c19c7d15284e3880e8530756c2a502\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Do members know what it is called now? It used to be called Cockle Beach, but is now called \u201CChina Beach\u201D. At one time, we could all go down to get a feed of cockles at any time, but now we cannot get one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMeanwhile, what is Mr Tamihere\u2014who, by his own definition, is a giant in the M\u0101ori world\u2014doing about the situation? He says: \u201CYes, Helen, yes, Helen, three bags full.\u201D, or, \u201CHow high do you want me to jump?\u201D, and then he goes public in the newspapers, and writes an article. But when the heat goes on, we do not have a warrior; we have a worrier. Mr Tamihere is really powerful on the marae, but when he gets inside the Cabinet room and Helen has a word to him, he begins to understand what people say about those men who hide behind the skirts of women.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022165efcd97bfd46ddb3dfe45fc408c92a\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: Are you jealous?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241a1cb663c36464a9c9c41fb541b6f87\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. I do not think that someone who is prepared to see the M\u0101ori population superseded by immigrants not once, but twice, within 20 years is doing anything for M\u0101oridom, for this country, for Auckland, or for our hospitals, our schools, our jobs, or our welfare system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe Minister in charge of social services and employment was asked how many immigrants are on the sickness benefit, the unemployment benefit, the student allowance, and the subsidised work schemes. Other Ministers were asked how many immigrants are accessing our education services, health services, accident compensation, and State housing, and at what cost. Do members know what the Ministers said? They said they could not tell me, because they do not keep those figures. Yet they keep on going around the country saying that immigration is good for New Zealand. That is as shallow and superficial as it ever gets. Those Ministers have no idea why immigration is good, but, apparently, it is like Epsom salts\u2014if a person takes it, that will somehow be good for him or her. It tastes like crap, but we are told it will be good for us. That is the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b043a4b669c4c569a4615e419de1bc5\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a bit old-fashioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257fd8127b804cc6973953b10efa0c6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to ask \u201CStevie Nicks\u201D from Rotorua this simple question: how many people in Rotorua support this policy? There is not a word, a syllable, a mutter or a sound now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDo members know what happened? The party over there in Government\u2014the \u201Cfinger in the wind\u201D party\u2014that does everything on the basis of the polls and the views of its focus groups, found out in the Sunday Star-Times that its contention that immigration was good for New Zealanders and was supported by them was wrong. The Sunday Star-Times pointed out that less than 16 percent of New Zealanders supports the Government\u2019s policy. That is panic station - time for that party. Those members know full well that in the last pre-election campaign we promised three things, and we will fix them up. First of all, we will fix the Minister. We will make sure that on this policy we fix her good and proper. We will fix her mind, so that she understands what is going on. I hear those Labour members over there on the Government side of the House cheering\u2014members like the senior Government whip. How did he get that job? It must have been in a raffle, because it cannot be on the basis of talent, leadership, ability, or respect as some sort of leader in the caucus. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons that Labour will lose the 2005 election\u2014or whenever it flies the white flag\u2014is that it has a totally stupid, fatalist immigration policy. That is a fact. There are other reasons, as well. But Labour will lose when the crunch goes on, as it did in the last campaign and Labour went down 14 percent in 4 weeks flat. If the New Zealand media got off its backside and was halfway towards being impartial, Labour would go down by twice that figure, because the media knows the Labour Party\u2019s support is as soft as hell on this issue. I warn Labour to draw back now, before it is too late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8032d5b1c4d453da275d178318dc367\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8032d5b1c4d453da275d178318dc367\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a brief call in support of the first reading of this bill. One can be surprised that Mr Peters supports the consideration of over 10,000 applications, even when we know they are from people who will not get proposed or skilled jobs. The bill enables the lapsing of applications, so that we can protect those skilled applicants who have offers of skilled jobs and who will do very well here. May I just finally add as a parting comment that with the collective IQ of the Labour caucus we know, having tested the nation, that we are right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde4191c608e456a830965b7426f6b7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde4191c608e456a830965b7426f6b7d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I must have been terribly busy, but that speech went by so fast I want an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ab7483e330344dab5029e84c3313e3a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdaea139b3f1430fb7299d0987ed0247\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I want to move an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8e283a18f04d52b881bd15cce430b9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022148b3a1e03c1445bb0ea940ae52752d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2f1ecb54ae048e38826e5eba3222481\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am sorry, Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c36b392f618d4bcb92a4f1c314a28071\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to move an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbd0ecaa34474b4f8e8ede09008e3f87\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot seek leave on behalf of someone else. There is a Speaker\u2019s ruling and a Standing Order, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022690dc00b0bb44c2eaff518effe997530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022690dc00b0bb44c2eaff518effe997530\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask that you pause and reflect on what you just said. It is my understanding that any member can seek leave for anything. The decision is then placed in the hands of the House. The Rt Hon Winston Peters sought the leave of the House to move for an extension of time. My understanding of the Standing Orders is that you are required to put that leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e7f28f524ca4ad280a1341bc1b001f0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 1/5 and Speaker\u2019s ruling 1/1 (Supplement). A member cannot actually seek leave for someone else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002284ab8c728fd047e1a2669844d8b2b86a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ab8c728fd047e1a2669844d8b2b86a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I say to the member who has just made a contribution that she was obliged to give the House a decent speech on this matter. We are debating a very serious matter. This bill is being passed under urgency and therefore cannot be referred to the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe bill does two things. It not only lapses applications, as the member said\u2014and I will come back to that later\u2014but also overturns a High Court decision. That High Court decision was not an idle one. It was made by Justice Randerson. I have a copy of it. Members can get it from the library. I would like to think that Labour Party members all got a copy of it before they decided to agree with the Minister cavalierly telling us that a High Court judge is wrong. I found that extremely arrogant. The judge made a 60-page decision, which the Minister publicly said she would take to the Court of Appeal and now has decided not to. I ask whether United Future members have read that decision. Before United Future decided to allow this Parliament to overturn a court decision, did anyone of its members read the decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289300577929e484da7afbda63ad2fb6b\u0022\u003EAn Hon Member\u003C/span\u003E: No!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aaafa5ec2cb4dcf956445d67ad0de0c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: No, they did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022252279633be44af685d122f6b2c39545\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re just poodles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205ebe29de1be4729baade5da435a10e8\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: They are absolute poodles. This bill not only overturns that decision but also does something else that this House never does. When we decide to change the law, we normally say that those who have had their day in court will not have the fruits of their victory taken away from them. In this case the Government has decided to do that, as well. What does that say about the rule of law? I know that the Government is suddenly going in for doing that and saying to people that they cannot bring property claims any more. In this case the Government has picked on a group of people who have hired lawyers, gone to court, and found out that they were right. This Government has not only changed the law but also has said that those people who went to court are to have their rights taken away. I can see why the Minister wants to do that under urgency. There is such a thing as fair play and a having fair go, but the Government has taken no notice of either of those. Since when has the law been as the Minister told us: \u201COh, I\u2019ve got a Cabinet paper that says I meant it to be something different.\u201D? That is not the law of the land. Police States do that sort of thing. It is the statutes passed by this House that count. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMembers should know what this case is all about. I will read from the judgment: It starts off: \u201CWith effect from midnight on 19 November 2002 the Minister of Immigration introduced significant changes to immigration policy under the Immigration Act 1987. For present purposes the relevant changes fall into two broad categories. First, for people applying for residence in the general skills category there was a tightening of the English language standard, and for those who later made an associated application for a job search visa there was a requirement that the applicant have qualifications to obtain employment in New Zealand in an area of occupational shortage.\u201D The applicants went to court, and said: \u201CI\u2019ve come to New Zealand. I\u2019m seeking a job. Basically, I did it under a contract from the Government that if I found a job offer I would have a job made available to me.\u201D This Government is saying to that group of people\u2014people who have spent many times their life savings\u2014that we will overturn that decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7d17a6c815d4011b2eee863d6af3275\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Not one in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f206f83088f842099a6e176508d6f447\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac2130b8b10947c1b08e9fb2b973d942\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Not of the ones who were seeking job search visas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271df03ddacfd41a1887bf6302d2135fb\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: None of those are in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9abbd057dfd4710be5717a5e795e1b2\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The 20,000 in New Zealand will get residence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4fc23cf86e44d9e868341c40541aae7\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: They will get residence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf7b516010c14e638045dbc067055244\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cff239e0d43949a6b87335ea648be583\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Then why is the Minister passing this legislation? Who are the people affected? [Interruption] I asked the Minister a straight-out question, under urgency. She has interrupted me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2d0c980a8224e0d8bfc766e67f5beb0\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already answered it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222960ba2d71ef4e388a9968293149142e\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: She has already answered it. If we are allowed to have a media press conference and be prepared to go out and talk to every group in the country about the bill, why can the Minister not talk to an elected member of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251e6773db7c143fcbd5538aefdefe083\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The member should do his homework.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d0fe21ad0364fba90593d60390cb457\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Now I am told to do my homework. I was only told about this bill at 4.15 p.m. today. In fact, I went to three different offices in the building to try to find out where the briefing was. Mr Peters did not even find it. The Minister did not even tell him. Now I am trying to ask her questions across the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI ask United Future members, who support this bill, what sort of legislative procedure this is. I did do some homework. I had a look at this decision, and on page 31 I read the statement by the judge. It seemed to me to be pretty straightforward. He said that the purpose of section C was undoubtedly to give an applicant and his family or her family an assurance that their residence application would be processed on the basis of policies existing at the date of their application. That is what he said the law is. I asked the Minister where her moral authority is to change that decision. She said her moral authority is that her statement of the law is correct. If that is so, the Minister should go to the Court of Appeal. She should have the Court of Appeal uphold her. We all know that her own legal advisers have told her that when she made her decision at midnight on 19 November, she was wrong. She was wrong legally, and she has stripped away those peoples\u2019 rights. She now tells us not to worry about those people, as they are not in New Zealand. Well, I say to the Minister, what about the honour and integrity of New Zealand? What about the honour and integrity of the New Zealand Government? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThis Government accepted money. It accepted people\u2019s applications. People put their lives on hold to come to this country, thinking that this was a Government that was committed to the rule of law and that the United Future party was bringing decency into public life, that they were going to do their research, and that they would not be doormats. Those people thought they would be able to come to a land of opportunity. Instead, they found that we have a Minister of Immigration who is prepared, under urgency, to try to get what she cannot get in the courts, and then go one stage further and take away from them\u2014from people who do believe in the rule of law\u2014the benefits of their court victory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMaybe we have done that before. I do not know. I ask Mr Peters whether he can remember when we have reversed a court case and taken the victory away from those who had won. I cannot think of one. Perhaps members opposite who have done their research can think of a case where the New Zealand Parliament has not only reversed a case but also then taken away the victory of those who went to court. If members opposite can think of such a case\u2014I am sure they debated it in their caucus\u2014then when was it? When did it happen? When have we had a Government that has acted in this way? Or do they say that it does not matter, as none of them are voters? That appears to be the standard Ms Dalziel is following. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to the House that this is an outrage. It is absolutely wrong. It is an abuse of our powers. We do not have a written constitution. We depend upon members of Parliament to uphold what is right and decent. We depend upon people like the last speaker to read the bill and to decide to do justice, and to do justice to everyone\u2014not just to New Zealand citizens but to people who trusted this Government and who trusted New Zealand enough to give us some money, fill out application forms, and put their lives on hold to come here, only to be treated by the Labour Party and the United Future party in this contemptible fashion. I will vote against this measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00220dd79e3b171944f7bd3796dbdb3b0905\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dd79e3b171944f7bd3796dbdb3b0905\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E This is a technical bill that I am proud to support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022485decdaa4974868b991c935050f1d29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022485decdaa4974868b991c935050f1d29\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We have the Hansard record, but I could not hear that speech because of the degree of laughter around me at the time. I wonder whether the member could repeat her speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a31ba4ef93f40f0b2eb32cbbbc53c56\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002290b2a2fb861f4a439e2a9a81e4c9245b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290b2a2fb861f4a439e2a9a81e4c9245b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I said that I could not hear the member\u2019s speech because of the noise in the House. That is a point of order, with respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234dd38813b7b4e898d63e461f12669d0\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s speech was able to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022a069a34fb53b452fae073fe9f6c09be8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a069a34fb53b452fae073fe9f6c09be8\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens have some sympathy for the Immigration Service and the difficulties it faces with the backlog of applications\u201420,000 applications, which will take 2 years to process, is a very sorry state indeed. Clearly, the measures that the Government has taken to attempt to deal with them have not been sufficient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens will certainly not be supporting this bill because we do not support a bill that arbitrarily deprives people of their just process. We accept that applicants who apply for residency in this country, through various processes, do have a limited expectation. A country must retain the ability to make policy appropriate in the circumstances surrounding immigration, but surely not in such a way as to eliminate completely a just process\u2014to take that process from those who, in good faith, have met the Government\u2019s requirements and have been waiting, some for up to 2 years, for their application to proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe could consider supporting this bill if it were the case that the backlog\u2014that is, those applications that have been lodged up until today\u2014was dealt with under the old rules as set out by the High Court, which are the rules that applied at the time the application was made, and that any application lodged as of today was to be dealt with under any new rules that arise out of the select committee process in relation to the later bill. That would ensure a just process for those already in the system, but would also avoid a rush of applications that could undermine the efficacy of the new set of rules that is likely to come into force at some point. But the bill does not do this. Instead, applicants who have met the Government\u2019s requirements, paid their money, and have waited and waited, will be punished because the Government could not provide the resources to enable the Immigration Service to deal with applications in a timely fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis bill is a breach of natural justice. Applicants should not be arbitrarily deprived of a just process. The bill overrides a decision of the court, depriving those people of their right to access and to receive justice in that forum. The process by which this House is dealing with this bill is a disgrace, and the Greens will oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00225268c6d0e92d4e71a87d8d2d73076412\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225268c6d0e92d4e71a87d8d2d73076412\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the bill. It is yet another example of the common-sense approach of this Government. I am proud to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed66601457e34a3593ace112149a1921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed66601457e34a3593ace112149a1921\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E This is getting bizarre. We have Labour back-benchers. At least the Labour M\u0101ori caucus will take a stand. The other Labour back-benchers simply fall over. Why can they not just admit that they do not receive briefings from their Minister? Why do they just stand and say nothing? It is embarrassing. I could not understand why the Rt Hon Winston Peters was not happy this evening. At least Mr Paul Adams of United Future came out, at long last, and admitted that Labour and United Future have been studying New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy. Therefore, they were doing quite well in copying New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy, yet obviously they still fall far short. I can look forward to a lot more legislation coming from Labour and United Future, modelled on New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy. At least we got that much truth out of this need for the House to sit under urgency. If it were not such a serious issue, it would be almost quite comical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThere are two parts to this legislation. I was saddened to hear Mr Paul Adams of United Future, and of Christian beliefs, say that the applications of 10,000 people lapsed, but that it is better for them, even though they paid the money. They were led down the garden path. Why not? How Christian can one be? It is just 10,000 people. Hey, who cares? What is the big deal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a51bd8836a1844bb850476a57007fcb0\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They get the money back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afd158c3cde54968b718cbfe6a21f10b\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says their money is refunded. They have been waiting for 2 years, putting their life on hold. But she says: \u201CBig deal, the people get the fees back.\u201D Let me tease out some logic in the debate from this Minister of Immigration and Mr Paul Adams. They stood up just now, on the Immigration Amendment Bill, and said that immigration was good and that there is a research paper that shows there is a $1.7 billion net benefit, so why complain? They also talked about wanting potential migrants who would contribute. What happened to the resources to process those migrants in the pool? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThere is another point that the Minister of Immigration may want to answer. It is quite interesting. She lowered the passing mark just at the beginning of this year, from 30 to 29, and then she complained that there is a growing list of people wanting to come to New Zealand. The Labour Government needs to come clean and accept that it has simply lost the plot. The Minister was never on top of her job. At least we were told by Prime Minister Helen Clark and by Deputy Prime Minister Michael Cullen that the only reason the Minister of Immigration should keep her job is that at least she is a hard-working Minister\u2014not competent but hard-working. Now we know she is not even hard-working. There is a 2\u00BD year backlog of applications. How can that Minister be described as hard-working? At least the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister come out with this truth. They say that they know the Minister of Immigration is not competent but she is hard-working. Now we know that even that was not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe second part is about overriding a court case. On page 33 of the judgment the judge says that he is satisfied that the immigration policy, effective from 20 November 2002, is invalid because of a breach of section 13C of the Immigration Act. The judgment is very clear. Let us spare a thought for the plaintiff that brought the case to court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee51aef88ca495c95b04e2a2b99c5a2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Who was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231b9a3a917324cc4b148ea643be097c6\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Association for Migration and Investments Incorporated. It spent $100,000. It used to be mates with the Minister of Immigration. Members can see how fast the Labour Government can get upset. Just now the Minister was reading out an immigration consultant\u2019s letter, and because the consultant praises the Minister, it is the good guy. If one challenges the Labour Government, boy one will get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe immigration association spent $100,000, and obviously the Minister of Immigration spent the same amount of taxpayers\u2019 money\u2014wasted\u2014to defend a case that, if she had worked hard and sought good advice, could have avoided that legal fee being funded by taxpayers. Then she bluffed to the public and said that the judge was wrong and she would appeal. Tonight I think it has been proved categorically that the judgment delivered was correct. What did the Government do? It rushed through legislation in the middle of the night that totally went against the principle that people who won their case should keep the fruits of victory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI thought that the Minister of Immigration, wanting the cooperation of the Opposition parties, could learn to be a bit humble and modest and at least accept that she got it wrong. We will never get that from an arrogant Minster and an arrogant Government. She will not get any cooperation. We will ask all the hard questions and she had better be prepared to come up with some good answers. She should not hide away. She did not come to the briefing session with the Opposition MPs. Instead, she fronted up to Television One but she did not talk about this legislation. She talked only about the legislation that was going to a select committee. She did not mention this bill, but was caught out by people reminding her of the court case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhy is the Minister rushing through this legislation? She built into the legislation the discretionary power to lapse of immigration applications. She has the legislative power to impose that measure any time. There was really no reason for her to try to rush through the first part of this legislation. That is the only way that we can assess her desire to legislate away a victory by the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investments Incorporated. If that is the only good question a Deputy Prime Minister can ask, we are a bit concerned. I wish the Deputy Prime Minister were in charge of the Immigration Service. I bet he would do a slightly better job. It would not be much better, but it would be slightly better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe sad part is that in the last term of the Labour Government, the Government sent the Immigration Service to India and all sorts of places to encourage people to apply to migrate to New Zealand. When people listened and accepted that there might be a welcome mat in New Zealand, what did the Government do? On 19 November 2002, at 12 a.m., it brought in legislation, changed the rules, and pulled the mat from under their feet. Then, when it lost a case, it got even worse. It rushed through legislation and tried to bluff by saying it would appeal the court case. Yet it has tried to abuse the process of Parliament by not briefing Opposition MPs properly, by not letting the public have a say by not going through the select committee process. I think that tonight is a very, very sad day for principles. There has been a lack of transparency and abuse of process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff488f6fa7647d5912e2e070ee8cfb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff488f6fa7647d5912e2e070ee8cfb3\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E It is appropriate that one of the other immigrants in this House also gets to speak in this debate. I could never understand why the National Party gets so worked up on immigration, but, of course, we raised the level for the English language test. Suddenly, it struck me that if National Party members had to sit the English-language test, over half of them would have to leave the country. They would certainly be led by Dr Nick Smith who has only a passing acquaintance with the English language, and is now known on this side of the House as the \u201CEternal Corporal\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI shall take the member who has just spoken through the issue of fruits of litigation. It is a bit rich from a party that abolished area health boards overnight under urgency with nobody knowing what was coming; a bit rich from a party that passed legislation in relation to the Whangarei dispute in 1984; and a bit rich from a party that got the Clyde Dam built only because it overrode litigation that had succeeded against that measure. But never mind, that the member has not been here long enough to know the history of her own party is all one can assume from the kind of speech she gives in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EShe says that it is wrong to take away the fruits of litigation. Who litigated in this case? It was the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investments Incorporated, a highly worthy group of people, some of who are somewhat less worthy than others it has to be said to be fair. There are some fairly dodgy characters around there, drawn from former members of Parliament of the least worthy variety in many instances. However, in legislating tonight, what single immigrant has lost the fruit of his or her litigation? This is not like the Western Samoan Citizenship Act where there was a litigant whose rights had to be preserved. There is not a single litigant who is affected by this legislation who was a litigant in the case. The litigants are the people who make the money out of the business of immigration. All the bill does is restore what successive Governments had assumed to be the policy that some judge decided was not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EAt some point under our system we have to assert parliamentary sovereignty against judicial activism. We have heard from members opposite that we should not have a Supreme Court in New Zealand, because we might have judicial activism. But lo and behold, when they are faced with an occasional Tory on the High Court bench waking up long enough to be active, they say: \u201COh, we must abide by that. It would be totally wrong for Her Majesty\u2019s sovereign Parliament; the Crown in Parliament, to decide what the policy should be.\u201D I tell Ms Wong that that is what Parliament is for. That is what she does in the 3 days, 32 weeks a year, that she works as a back-bench Opposition list MP. What she gets paid roughly a thousand bucks a day to do in this particular Chamber is, in the end, to decide what the policy is. I know that it is hard work, I know that it is tough, and I know that she has to take responsibility for it, but hard cheese, some day, who knows, eventually in 15 years\u2019 time she might even have to do it from this side of the House, but do not bet on that after the way things went this afternoon with the Leader of the Opposition. I think would be better to stick to Sheba rather than Solomon, going by the speech he gave this afternoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI come back to the first part of the bill and I shall read what it says in the note: \u201CBy prioritising on a global basis, applications from those most likely to contribute to New Zealand and settle well in New Zealand will be decided first, rather than those who have lodged their application in a particular branch that may have more capacity or residence approval places available.\u201D What does the member not understand about that? What does the member disagree with that about? Or does she think we should decide basically on the basis of which office had the most places available and what the queuing was at that point, rather than on who is best suited to come to this country? What other country in the world would not assert its sovereign right to decide immigration on that basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260479abfa43e46c493563f5f689a45d2\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand, until today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641d9582c2cb4a91913149fef87f0e11\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is all very well for Mr Mark. He did not have to apply to get into New Zealand. He was born here, and unfortunately we are stuck with him. But some of us actually have to get into the country, and we understand that those who do, get chosen. Some of those who are here, unfortunately, we would prefer to get rid of, if we could, but nobody else would take them. I mean, we have tried to sell New Zealand First as a job lot, but nobody else in the world wanted to take it. Jorg Haider said: \u201CI\u2019ve already got that lot.\u201D, and Mr Le Penn said: \u201CThey\u2019re a bunch of woolly-woofter, sickly white liberals, as far as I\u2019m concerned.\u201D So they were not very interested in New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good bill. It is a necessary bill, and I have not yet heard a single argument from the serried ranks of National\u2014all three of them. They have failed to put up a central argument yet against the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00224bf4b64407804ec7a25cca53b63f2004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bf4b64407804ec7a25cca53b63f2004\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The deputy leader of the Labour Party is going to be terribly embarrassed, because in this particular case the Government actually did decide its policy. The Government had a policy, and the judge made the point that it did not carry it out properly. That was the fault of the case. The policy was there; it was clear, but it was not administered properly. That is why we keep on saying that this Minister of Immigration must go. She does not know how to do her job. That is what it is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMr Cullen has not understood the court case. Obviously, he was not at the briefing, and has not been in touch with the Minister of Immigration. He has not understood this bill. As Pansy Wong said, we know what the Government\u2019s policy was. It was clear, and everyone lodged their applications based on the Government\u2019s policy. All of those 20,000 people, whether they were from Taiwan, China, or goodness knows where, were abused in an insulting way by this minority Labour Government in terms of their command of the English language. They filled out their applications properly, using good English. They were carrying out the Government\u2019s policy decisions, just as the Labour Party absolutely messed it up. That is all that Justice Randerson was saying\u2014that the Government did not do its job properly. The Government had all those cases that it was very embarrassed about. So what did it do? It decided it was not happy with the decision the High Court judge made and would break every constitutional precept by repealing it by legislation. Have we not heard that somewhere before? This time it is doing it. One just wonders what it is doing in the back rooms, even today. What do the M\u0101ori members have to say about that? One just wonders what is going on behind closed doors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe deputy leader of the Labour Party, Dr Michael Cullen, would have assessed the situation as a history professor, and in that fashion he got it wrong. But looking at it from a legal viewpoint, Murray McCully, in the very early party of this debate, made the position clear, as, in her lucid fashion, did Pansy Wong. We all understood her so clearly. She and I get on very well these days. One has to be very careful. We got close on the Business Law Reform Bill, and we are getting close on this bill, as well. Someone is going to start talking soon. I cannot always understand what she says, which is perhaps a shame\u2014or good for her, I am never quite sure. But Pansy Wong was lucid on this bill, she was clear, and she got it right. It is just that Dr Michael Cullen got it absolutely wrong. The Labour Party was trying to carry its policy out, but it did so ineffectually and badly. That is why New Zealand First has said time and time again that this Minister must go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat do we have here that is being rushed through under urgency? The whole situation is confused by there being two immigration bills, one of which is to go to the select committee. As we all know, with the first bill the Government is giving itself wide powers to do virtually what it likes. It is going to the select committee, but it contains nothing specific. The Government talked about how it would use the first bill, but it contains nothing specific. All we know about the Labour Party policy is what the geography professors at Waikato University indicated, which is that to the year ended 2002, 190,000 people came into New Zealand as a result of Labour Party policies. Only 52,000 of those migrated in the normal way; 75,000 were students; and another 65,000 or so were people looking for work permits. I presume that those 65,000 would have been part of this potential group. The Labour Party has abused the plaintiffs in this action, because it seems that all the applicants were overseas. Just because they were not in New Zealand, the Labour Party has derided them, making snide remarks about the fact that they were overseas. What does that do for New Zealand\u2019s status in East Asia? What does it do for New Zealand and China? What does it do for New Zealand and Taiwan? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAt the last election, New Zealand First said that far too many people were coming into New Zealand, and now we discover that in the year ended 2002, 190,000 came here as immigrants, one way or another. On almost the first day I was in Parliament, which was in September last year, there were cries about New Zealand First being racist. What do we have here today? We have a Labour Party that is denying about 46,000 applicants\u2014the figure seems to be somewhat confused, but it is 20,000 plus\u2014the right they had, and that the High Court judge said they had, to apply to come to New Zealand. Is there something about those people that the Labour Party did not like? Is it the great example of the pot calling the kettle black? That seems to be what it boils down to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI get very disturbed, and I think that all of us in New Zealand First are very annoyed, that we should have borne all that criticism, and now we are being proved right about the number of people coming into New Zealand, about the pressure that is being placed on the northern and Auckland motorways, about the fact that Auckland is falling further and further behind with its roading problems under this Labour Government, and about the hospitals, the schools, and the like. Despite the fact that the Labour Government is cancelling these applications, it still maintains that it is bringing in 55,000 people, although we know from the figures that that number is really 190,000\u2014and those are not New Zealand First figures; they are the figures of the professors of geography at Waikato University, based on the statistics of the New Zealand Immigration Service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI remind the Minister of the question she was asked by the television interviewer this evening. As I recall it, she was asked: \u201CYou\u2019re bringing this bill in, aren\u2019t you, because of the High Court decision?\u201D And what did she say? I think she said \u201CNo\u201D. Mind you, she was so over the top of everybody else that it was hard to hear. But I think she said \u201CNo\u201D, and it confirms to me that she said that she did not bring in this legislation because of that decision. It is clear from everyone who has spoken in the House, and who has read page 2 of the explanatory note of the bill, that she misled the television interviewer and the country. If it had happened in the House, I would have expected her to stand up and apologise. But one never holds one\u2019s breath waiting for Labour Party Ministers to do that\u2014that is, if they understood what was actually being said, which is also a difficult thing for them to grasp sometimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note very clearly states that \u201Cfollowing the decision of the High Court in New Zealand Association for Migration and Investments Incorporated v Attorney General (unreported M1700/02), the issue and grant of temporary and limited purpose visas and permits may be required as a matter of Government residence policy.\u201D It says they \u201Cmay be required as a matter of Government residence policy\u201D. I wish Dr Cullen had read the explanatory note. It is very, very clear that what was being done was a matter of Government policy. The bill ensures\u2014to put it in layman\u2019s terms\u2014that in no circumstances will this Labour Government support a decision by the High Court on the issue and grant of temporary and limited purpose visas. What sort of Governments do we have today when they will allow people to go to court? They contest the case in court, then when they lose\u2014and they are bad losers\u2014they decide that the simplest thing to do is to pass a bill that cancels the court case. All this bill really does is cancel a court case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd6d94c09d0f4e0ca97daaf341c71d6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What about those guys?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27a7e696055458c86389f7c9c5080e0\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: And, of course, there is United Future. I thank the member for reminding me\u2014I was so away with my stream of thought. The only party supporting this minority Labour Government and allowing this legislation to go through is United Future. I am pleased to hear that the Greens have principles and will oppose this legislation. I give them full credit for that. I often give them something else, but I give them full credit on this occasion. It is becoming quite common in this House for us to be critical of United Future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis legislation cancels constitutional rights, and it cancels a High Court decision. This legislation allows this incompetent Minister of Immigration to continue in her office, and it is being supported only by the minority Labour Government, supported by United Future. That is all that is allowing this legislation to continue. It is a disgrace. When I get back and speak to some of those people in the Waitakere and Albany areas\u2014people who might have supported United Future\u2014boy, oh boy, are they going to be even more upset, and the support for United Future will go down the tubes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First wants to make sure that we do not have an overabundance of immigrants to the extent of the 50,000, 60,000, and 190,000 that we have today. This bill does not do anything to stop that. Under this bill, we will still have the same rush of immigrants that we had before. We cannot support that, and we oppose this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002243ea3f6b8d7d46c596063ebe7a666174\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022027e58defa4048f4a1accdbd89d1e264\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00227c7a26c2e39c493dadf1618f1a5eae12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c7a26c2e39c493dadf1618f1a5eae12\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. I want to take members back to the Department of Labour\u2019s 2002 briefing to incoming Ministers, because it has been commented on in this debate. I want to read the opening statement in it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022882b785664504e3fa01f31198785c302\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What page?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a0a04ce0455445589a1e59cc9f8c91c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Page 125. The member might like to refer to it\u2014I know he carries it around with him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EToo often the success of the immigration programme has been primarily equated with quantity rather than with quality of outcome. The 1991 general category was initially perceived as a success, because it attracted high numbers of migrants with high human capital. In practice, outcomes were often poor, because their capacity was not necessarily transferable. This bill, the No. 2 bill, is focused on ensuring that immigration policy is able to address the concerns that we are talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI heard New Zealand First members saying that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221880683378ce4a55815d1f524483d268\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The Minister referred us to page 125. I have a full copy of that briefing paper right here and there is no page 125 in it. [Interruption] No, here it is here. The Minister gave it to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a801a8d8b5e4a2784e7cb971b96257e\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a debating point, as the member knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6bb5367cb3447890d39e2402f34779\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df3d9cd7361945c7bc81f4b8b8f2b8aa\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Can I please have this matter addressed? It was page 125 of the Department of Labour\u2019s compiled briefings to Ministers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dacef203b7f4add8a504c0aab8e26ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The briefing to the incoming Minister of Immigration by the Department of Labour, Te Tari Mahi\u2014everything has a M\u0101ori name these days\u2014is that of August 2002. That is the briefing paper that was given to her, and she gave to me, so where is the page 125 she is talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e5067aba6df402bb3526438b78b07c1\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister said she had the compiled ministerial briefings. The member does not have the whole lot; he has only one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce14952f855d46d6b88d83b2b38bc0e7\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I heard New Zealand First members saying that we were denying people the right to residence, and I want to say in this House that nobody has the \u201Cright\u201D to residence in New Zealand. In fact, under the skilled migration policy, it is a privilege. That has been the fundamental problem with the legislation, the policy, since 1991. The year 1991 brought in a right to residence, backed up by a Residence Appeal Authority. Who was the Minister of Immigration in 1991? It was the Hon Bill Birch. Who was in Cabinet in 1991? It was the Rt Hon Winston Peters. He was there in Cabinet when this policy was brought in; he absolutely was. It is a bit rich for anyone from New Zealand First or National to come into this House and criticise this Government for trying to address the problems that their policies created. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill does three things. It allows for the global prioritisation of applications. That enables us to take those who have job offers relevant to their qualifications or experience and address their applications first. We are turning the general skills category around so that it works for New Zealand. It is supposed to be the category where skilled migrants come to New Zealand to make a contribution to this country, to be part of this country, and to be part of its economic development and its future. We are making the general skills category work in the way that it was originally intended to work, but unfortunately the National Party\u2014and New Zealand First in conjunction with the National Party\u2014failed to address the fundamental flaw in the immigration system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill lapses certain applications. It lapses all general skills applications made before 20 November last year and not decided by the time this bill comes into effect\u2014except where points have been claimed for a relevant offer of employment in New Zealand, except where they have claimed 28 or more points, or have been issued a job-search visa or permit, or have been invited to apply for one, or have been determined by the Immigration Service to meet the requirements for approval in principle. So people who have already been invited to apply for a job-search visa will continue to have that process. Where they have been issued with a job-search visa, they will continue to have that process. If it has been determined that they meet the requirements for approval in principle, they will still be processed. If they have claimed 28 points or more, they will still be processed. If they have claimed points for a relevant offer of employment in New Zealand, they will still be processed. Not one single person that Pansy Wong mentioned\u2014namely people who claimed after 20 November last year\u2014will be lapsed by this bill. Not one single one of them will be lapsed, because they meet the new criteria as established by the policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI believe it is better to lapse the applications when we know through evidence, through research, and through all of the examples that have been brought to our attention, that those people are highly unlikely to succeed\u2014even when members of New Zealand First raise, time and time again, the issue of highly skilled applicants doing unskilled work. We have been raising that matter since we became the Government, and this is the way we are addressing it. When I became the Minister of Immigration, I said that there were people in this country who had residence and who could not get work, and that there were people in this country who had work but could not get residence. This is the Government that has been prepared to front up to both of those problems, and this is the Government that is making a real difference. We want to address the issue of those who will not succeed in a New Zealand environment\u2014to lapse their applications so that we can get on with the job of bringing in the people we know will succeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe third thing this bill does is that it clarifies the distinction between Government immigration policy and Government residence policy, which has been confused by the High Court decision. I want to ask the National Party\u2014and it will be very interesting, because it was its Cabinet that made the original decision to bring in the job-search visa\u2014did it ever intend to include the job-search visa as part of Government residence policy? Of course not! Nobody seems to front up to that in the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn 1998 the National Party made a fundamental change to the general skills category that recreated the era of 1991. In 1998 it delinked the requirement that the job offer be linked to the skills and the experience that the individual brought. It delinked the qualifications from the job offer, which meant that that party was responsible for saying that if one is a scientist and gets a job offer to work in a laboratory doing original science, one gets five points towards his or her residence. Under its amazing policy in 1998, it also said that if that same scientist gets a job offer as a hamburger bar cook, or a cleaner, then he or she gets five points towards residence. It was the National Party that brought professional migrants to this country and saw their hopes dashed because they were never going to have the opportunity to achieve those ends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI want finally to comment on the fruits of the case argument. The New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment took the case. It did not take the case with named individuals who were affected by it. I have to say in this House that there are two very distinct groups of immigration consultants in this country, and the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment represents both sorts. Some want good settlement outcomes, because they actually care what happens to New Zealand. Others do not care about settlement outcomes, because all they want is a fee paid to them when they get a resident stamp in the passport. There are people in this country acting as immigration consultants who do not act in the interests of New Zealanders. The immigration consultants I support are the ones who believe that they have a role to play in actively recruiting the people that New Zealand needs, and that is what this policy is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022342a08824f1946babc1b5de0c5609b51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022342a08824f1946babc1b5de0c5609b51\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister who has just resumed her seat tells us that this bill is about better settlement outcomes for migrants to New Zealand. I want to invite members of the House this evening to reflect on precisely what the measure that we have before us would look like if, indeed, the Minister\u2019s assertion were correct. If this bill were being promoted by a Minister who had spent 4 long years in office thinking about how the immigration policies of the previous decade could be improved, is this the bill that the Minister would come to the House with tonight, and would the Minister come along demanding that the House should pass it under urgency? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIt is self-evident that this is not a measure being promoted by a Minister with a determination to improve those settlement outcomes. Because the first thing that one would do if one were determined to improve settlement outcomes would be to ask oneself a very basic question about the immigration programme published by the Government that says that 60 percent of the migrants coming to New Zealand in the next 12 months will be in the skills or business category\u2014that is the policy of the Government this year, and it was last year. If we were determined to get people who were going to contribute to our economy and participate in our workforce, would we have a figure as low as 60 percent identified alongside skills and business? If we were unashamedly in the market for providing net benefit to New Zealand as an objective of our immigration policy by having good settlement outcomes, would we have a figure as low as 60 percent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI am on the record as saying that the figure should be 70 percent or higher. The Minister in the House tonight actually agreed that that might well be right. How is it that the Minister of Immigration, who has spent 4 long years giving careful and earnest consideration to how we might get better settlement outcomes, has not made up her mind whether the figure for business and skills in the Government\u2019s published programme should be 60 percent, 70 percent, or higher? It is absolutely fundamental, if that is the sort of objective one brings to this review, that one would at least know the answer to that question, and the Minister does not know. She concedes I might be right, but she does not know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EOne of the other things that a Government and a Minister might do, if they were intent on improving the settlement outcomes for new migrants in New Zealand, is give some passing thought to the fact that there are three different agencies involved in this area. There is the Immigration Service, which hangs over to one side with the Department of Labour; there is the Office of Ethnic Affairs, which is supposed to be involved in settlement programmes; and there is the citizenship function, which sits in the Department of Internal Affairs. I ask the House tonight, how much sense does that make? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EMembers opposite can make as much as they want of the fact that some of these structural deficiencies might have been around for some time. It does not make them right, and it does not make it right that the Minister can come to the House with a so-called visionary piece of policy designed to improve settlement outcomes, and not give even a passing thought to whether we might get better settlement outcomes by having the citizenship function, the ethnic affairs resettlement function, and the immigration function all parked in one place where maybe some people who talk to each other could actually make some decisions about these things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI would have thought that that was not rocket science. I have been promoting this as a policy initiative for a little while. If the Minister has not thought about it herself, and if her officials were not smart enough to think about it, she has certainly been quick to pounce on one or two other things that I might have said in this area. I want to know why she has not thought about that sort of structural change. It seems obvious to me that if we were to have an unashamed attempt to improve settlement outcomes, then the resettlement machinery of the Government contained in the Office of Ethnic Affairs would be the first place one would look to see how we could improve the structure, the governance, and the service. It does not seem to have crossed the Minister\u2019s mind that that might be the sort of thing that the House might want to include in legislation that purports to look at such a lofty and laudable objective as improved settlement outcomes for New Zealand\u2019s migrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI also ask the House to consider this. If the Government and the Minister did have firmly fixed in their minds an objective of improving settlement outcomes, why have we been asked to pass this bill under urgency? Why was this measure not featured in the Prime Minister\u2019s press conference yesterday afternoon? Why was word not carefully leaked out by the spin doctors from the ninth floor so that the media could get a foretaste of the wonderful policy that was about to be unveiled by the Minister this week? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe answer to those questions is that the Government does not take any pride in this measure. The Government does not seriously believe for one minute that this is about improving settlement outcomes. This is not part of some bold, new, visionary policy\u2014the result of a concerted and structured review over the 4 years the Government has had to give its attention to this matter. This is a tawdry piece of legislation to cut some people, who have entitlements under the current law, off the list because the Minister was too lazy and too incompetent to do a job in due time, and because, since she had messed it up with a retrospective component in what she did do, because she waited too long to get around to it, the High Court rolled her, and she knows that the Court of Appeal will roll her as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that if that is the case\u2014if, indeed, she is asking this Parliament to tidy up her mess\u2014then she will have to show better grace than she has shown tonight. She will have to come along and tell the truth to this House about the nature of the High Court decision made by Justice Randerson. She will have to tell us what her officials have told her will happen when she gets along to the Court of Appeal. She was so keen to assert on 17 June that she was off to the court, because that would be the way in which these minor technical difficulties would be overcome. [Interruption] Mr Carter asks what became of that initiative. I say to the Minister tonight that she cannot seriously expect the House to spend its time under urgency giving attention to this matter, when she cannot even tell us what happened to the appeal. What has happened to the appeal? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4dfb3e5568d40749fe7f93ef761b75e\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Did they have one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b8bae3b4e164374b45792449c90630b\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I ask the Associate Minister, Mr O\u2019Connor, who is in the House tonight, whether he would like to tell us what happened to the appeal that the Government announced on 17 June that it would lodge. The Government was so confident that Justice Randerson had got it wrong in the High Court decision. Does Mr O\u2019Connor have an answer to that question? Does Mr O\u2019Connor know about the High Court decision and about the decision of the Government to appeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218963089aebc41c1a9cee97864373166\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022157f774d6b8b4cfa9ffa8459025fb0d8\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Apparently not. I say to the Associate Minister that we will put up some more people to speak on the subject and to keep things moving while he is out the back with the officials and they tell him about the High Court decision\u2014which found that his Minister acted unlawfully\u2014and about the prospects that the Government has if it goes to the Court of Appeal. Then the Associate Minister can come back into the Chamber and do what the Minister did not do\u2014which is, to tell us the truth about this measure. Here tonight we are carving a whole bunch of people off a list, on which they currently have some entitlements, and by which, unless the Court of Appeal decided to do something to uphold the Minister, they would retain some entitlements. But we are cutting them off the list. Whether those people should be considered for residence in New Zealand is not really the point. The point is the way we do business. We tell people what our expectations are, we invite them to put their hands up, and then we deal with them fairly, predictably, and with certainty\u2014except that this Government does not want to do that, because the Minister got some things profoundly and fundamentally wrong. She dressed them up in not a very convincing fashion with some arguments, which do not hold any water, about improving settlement outcomes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022c402fd2a43024616ad1b84c2f9a95fac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c402fd2a43024616ad1b84c2f9a95fac\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to get up and support my colleague Lianne Dalziel, and congratulate her on her management of this legislation, which is not driven, as Mr McCully would claim, by any High Court ruling. It is driven by something that he may lack\u2014his party certainly does\u2014and that is vision. This is legislation to drive\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221eb0154935e4e5e95eeb195e7236ec7\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Where was your vision during the election?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262840a10a35f4220828ba6d6e69493b9\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014vision in this country where skills and industry are matched, where immigration and industry are matched, and where immigration and community are matched, so that we achieve some positive outcomes for this country from immigration, and where we match the aspirations of those coming into this country with the opportunities and needs of industry in New Zealand. It is as simple as that, and this Government is prepared to make the calls that are necessary and to bring into this House legislation that achieves those visionary goals. I know that it is hard\u2014if not impossible\u2014for any of the parties on the other side of the House to understand that we can guide some vision for this country, and put in place some legislation that helps achieve that, and in the end produce a better country than when we started\u2014because we took over from a miserable National Government, supported by New Zealand First at one stage, and then by ACT as well, that had created policies that misled many immigrants to this country. They were brought into the country in the belief that they would walk right into jobs because they had skills. We are aligning their skills with job opportunities. I am happy to be part of a Government that has developed sound legislation, and I look forward to its passage through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00225168f99f5e2f4d9cbd663930c58d341a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225168f99f5e2f4d9cbd663930c58d341a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister has just said he is happy to be part of a Government that introduces sound legislation. There could be no more unsound legislation than the bill before the House. I assume the Government hopes that through its actual effect it will be sound and that the immigration consultants who have wide resources do not inspect it very closely and discover there are loopholes in it. That would be very embarrassing for the Government and would completely destroy the Minister\u2019s statement. But I expect people will be looking at this bill very closely overnight, and informing various people as to how sound it is. They may even allow the bill to go through the House so they can then approve it or take some action subsequently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EBut to say that, generally speaking, this type of legislation could be sound is drawing a very long bow. This is retrospective legislation of the worst possible kind, and no Parliament that properly supports the rule of law, the Westminster system, and all those things that we refer to from time to time, should really be supporting this legislation. Governments sometimes have to admit they have made a mistake and did not carry out Government policy properly, and that those people who have lodged applications are entitled to have their applications heard, and if they do not succeed, well, the applications do not succeed. We are not suggesting\u2014and no one would suggest\u2014that all the applications that are before the Government would necessarily succeed. But all the Government is doing here is a wiping away of applications that it thinks will help it to reduce about 2 years of a backlog. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt is the sort of thing one does when the health system has a very long waiting list. One way to end the waiting list is to cut it short or redesign it in some form or another. Or the same thing can be done to the State-house waiting list or suchlike\u2014come up with some scheme whereby it is cut short. Any self-respecting Government would have accepted the High Court decision or would have brought in legislation that, as from today, would have brought the matter to an end and allowed those people who have lodged their applications to proceed with the applications and see whether they were successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EHowever, this minority Labour Government, supported by United Future, does not want to take that view. All the other parties in this House that have voted tonight have opposed that view. Retrospective legislation is contrary to all our principles. I heard from Dr Cullen\u2014and I did not touch on this\u2014his accusation of judicial activism against Justice Randerson. He was making his speech at 9 o\u2019clock at night, and he thought he would take up some sort of line he had perhaps heard on the Supreme Court Bill, where a criticism of judicial activism was made. To accuse the judge of judicial activism was quite\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a83203650f43d2ba2552b1246510f1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s just statutory interpretation, that\u2019s all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022162149ecbdb74a0c9d35c5ced6d746f3\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It was very simple statutory interpretation\u2014interpretation probably of an administrative law type of case, where Justice Randerson just had to look to see, on the facts, whether the requirements of administrative law had been carried out. There was no statute to interpret, really, just the facts, to see whether the policy had been carried out. To say that this was judicial activism and then to carry on in the way in which he did about the High Court Justice, I thought came very close to a breach of parliamentary privilege, in his attack on a member of the High Court of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E That goes to show how hard the deputy leader of the Labour Party, the Leader of the House, was trying to draw attention away from the actual bill and to throw attention on to the personality of the judge concerned. If he says that no judge of the High Court is ever going to tell the Labour Party how it will run the country, I say that, in many respects, that is what judges are for. Ultimately, they are our last resort and we must never get to a situation in which we say that we will ignore what a judge says, or do what we are doing here, which is not just ignoring it but repealing everything that the judge has ruled on. Once we go down that path\u2014we had a debate earlier today, on the Solomon Islands, and we are nowhere near that situation, but we do just wonder where that road will take us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis legislation is making New Zealand a laughing stock overseas. We have always prided ourselves on the way in which we administer the law here. We are able to go overseas and say to people that if they do a deal with New Zealand on certain specified terms, which are known to everybody, we will make sure that we honour those arrangements and that they are properly carried out, and we will not come down with some judicial type of guillotine and bring the whole process to an end. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt is hard to understand precisely from this bill how many countries are involved, but on page 3 of the explanatory note, under the heading \u201CNature and magnitude of the problem\u201D, it states: \u201CThere are currently around 20,000 general skills category (GSC) residence applications (involving approximately 46,000 applicants) on hand waiting to be processed. This equates to around 2 years of potential GSC residence approvals.\u201D In the time that one gets to try to follow this type of legislation that is being rushed through in this way, one gets slightly confused about the size and the magnitude of the whole thing, but perhaps the next Labour Party speaker can clarify whether there are, in fact, 46,000 people who are involved under this legislation; that is, as applicants only. Then one asks oneself whether those applicants have spouses, children, or other kin who might be coming along with them; and the mind boggles as to just how many people there are\u2014throughout, I assume, east Asia mainly, but also, perhaps, Africa and Europe\u2014who, in one way or another, could be affected by the high-handed way the Government has dealt with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has made it clear that we want to reduce the number of immigrants coming to New Zealand who do not have skills and suchlike. Our policy is closer to a target of 10,000 skilled immigrants to New Zealand, so that we could assimilate those people and they could have a chance to make a good contribution. Is 10,000 people right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1fc7b1e6113440eaba5136b09d22fc7\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216a0ce692c684fc1a56386ddff74ae7e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Doug Woolerton confirms that it is 10,000 people. I must be right. We want to see that number of people coming into New Zealand. We do not want to see the 190,000 people that according to the geography department of the University of Waikato came in last year. I am referring to the report by Dr Richard Bedford, the Professor of Geography and Deputy Vice-chancellor (Research) at the University of Waikato, who convenes the Migration Research Group; Dr Jacquie Lidgard, a Research Fellow; and Dr Elsie Ho. Is Dr Jacquie Lidgard a good lady?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e67910730f024b8992d48d6de8bef21a\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233615df007614dfa81926d3c526c1fe9\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Doug Woolerton says so, so she must be a good lady. Dr Elsie Ho is the Senior Research Fellow, and I am sure she would be a \u201Cgood fellow\u201D, as well, as far as Mr Doug Woolerton is concerned. She is in the Migration Research Group. Those three people have gone to the trouble of collating all the New Zealand Immigration Service\u2019s statistics to the end of 2002, and they have come up with a figure that floored me. Every time I touch immigration figures, I am more and more staggered by the way in which the Labour Government is selling out New Zealand\u2019s heritage. If we say that 6 percent of New Zealand\u2019s immigrants come from east Asia, and if we then swung the figures around and took 6 percent of China\u2019s population\u2014which is about 78 million people from 1.3 billion\u2014and said that 78 million Europeans, Africans, or South Americans were living in Beijing, I think that the people of Beijing would be a bit upset to have 78 million foreigners living in Beijing\u2014or the equivalent, say, in New Delhi. India has a population of about 1.1 billion. If 66 million South Americans, or Chinese, or Europeans were living in New Delhi, there would be hell to pay. There is no way they would tolerate that sort of takeover of their country, but here we have this minority Labour Government doing that type of thing to New Zealand, in the sense that in the last few years we have had 6 percent of our population coming in from overseas. In 1929 Auckland\u2019s population was 200,0000. Now, every 10 years Auckland\u2019s population grows by 200,000, and the majority seem to be immigrants from east Asia. That is appalling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00223b8bb136ab564854bb64c52f3becb11e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b8bb136ab564854bb64c52f3becb11e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very sensible bill. One could say it is a no-brainer. It allows the Immigration Service to prioritise applicants based on their contribution to New Zealand, and how could any party possibly object to that? What did we learn from this debate? We learnt that Dail Jones does not like immigrants\u2014sure, he now has his New Zealand passport, and tossed in his Pakistani one. We heard that Winston Peters does not like immigrants, but I guess that makes sense: even though he reckons he is Chinese. He does not like M\u0101ori either. It is a good bill; let us get it passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c385367b11c5465ea75ac91a2f39c576\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. The member cannot get up and claim that somebody said that he was from some other race, when the person never made that claim at all. I tell that green-behind-the-ears lad that he cannot say that in the House, otherwise he will get something back in the way of a personal response that he will not like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9211216024418f940a978272fd7922\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I put it to you that some words were spoken, over which offence was taken. I would have thought it was the practice of the House in such a circumstance that the member who has caused the offence should be invited to withdraw and apologise. I heard the words, and I think Mr Peters was perfectly entitled to take offence. I put it to you that the proper course is for you to ask the member to take the normal steps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244d488950898437cbcc7811da1895034\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: This is rather an interesting point. I am not sure that it is as easy to decide as it might be. We now have the race relations legislation, so if one accuses somebody of being another race, can that person take objection? Is that within the rules? I think what the member is really objecting to is that the honourable member who was just speaking, whom I understand has just discovered he is M\u0101ori\u2014and Christian Cullen is a M\u0101ori, as well, apparently\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022546623d86b0146f1bc43bc2a5f4d2473\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Speak to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022922f6a5820d04880a92a4c01e9c43cd6\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I am speaking to the point of order. The point of order is whether the member should be required to withdraw, and I think the real objection that Mr Peters was raising was that he never claimed he was Chinese. I was there, and I do not think he did. What he said was that if one goes back far enough, one finds that M\u0101ori came from China. Some people have said that that means M\u0101ori are Chinese, but, of course, that is not so. There are many people in China who are not Chinese, and so there are possibly M\u0101ori in China. I do not know whether that is right, but I think the member was saying that if one goes back far enough\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6f468cb04a4217992bded424361df1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Five and a half thousand years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213be3d8136ca4b24a39a548318138a24\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I am obliged to the member for that. I think that he is asking the member to withdraw because of his claim that Mr Peters had claimed to be Chinese. In fact, Mr Peters did not say that, he just said that some of his relatives came from China 5,500 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224900eec3fd44a22b00454a171a9e63a\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is right. I just caution members about referring to race like that. Perhaps the member might like to stand up and withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239dc9db070844373827281371280d3ec\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I am delighted to do so. I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245d023610dc7409fa1e723896940021e\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have about 30 seconds to go before the House lifts, and rather than having someone start, and then have his or her speech interrupted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6a6e23e56a34df4b19f45ce9d9f76ed\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The time has come for me to leave the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701ca2489e3ccaa4e86b08cbee7f4142b8d000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m. until 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022114efa98f6e646fdb206b8dfc2c329a6\u0022\u003ETuesday, 1 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf684a1eedff43f997d922a565f462cd\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 2 July 2003)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221d19eed68c3c4fa092c53972c5d1d2d8\u0022\u003EShop Trading Hours Act Repeal Act (Abolitionof Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225fb67a4f158e40f7be21dd956c1f9083\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5e0a46ae3a244339500561cda5381ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5e0a46ae3a244339500561cda5381ed\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the time by which the Commerce Committee must finally report the Shop Trading Hours Act Repeal Act (Abolition of Restrictions) Amendment Bill to be extended to 18 December 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2f40b23bd34590b2df9adb116c4e8e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226622f369d0814dd790552cb804f3bfbc\u0022\u003EImmigration Amendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eaab06414a9d4e8cb456cdd9e3159a1c\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000009\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00221663ae8a80c546b79dbae4d95ad34a5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221663ae8a80c546b79dbae4d95ad34a5a\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E ACT will be opposing this legislation. What we see with this bill is this Labour Government doing it again. Here we are, in urgency, debating a bill that is being rushed through the House. It is ill-conceived legislation and a knee-jerk reaction. This Government, it seems, has developed a tendency to panic. It gets itself into a spot, panics, then throws legislation into the House\u2014usually under urgency, like we are having today. That is not good government. It is a panicked response, and inevitably leads to bad legislation. We have seen numerous examples, just this year. I invite members to think back to that bizarre situation over the tax on alcopops, which so-called young people are drinking. That was a classic example, akin to this bill, of this Government panicking and introducing a measure that, clearly, will not work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand supports immigration. We say that immigration is a key part of our nation. In fact, we are all immigrants in this country; it is just a question of what date our forebears arrived here. The strength of our economy has been based on immigration\u2014the skills and the talents that new immigrants have brought here over many years. But there must be steady, consistent immigration policy. Knee-jerk policy is the worst thing possible for immigration. It sends bad signals, it creates distortions, and it creates loopholes. I ask the Minister of Immigration how many loopholes are going to be created by the panicked, knee-jerk reaction in this bill before us today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe know that this Minister has a hatred of immigration consultants. I think she has even said so publicly. She hates and despises immigration consultants. Unfortunately for her, there are some very honourable immigration consultants. I can think, just off the top of my head, of three former Cabinet Ministers who are practising immigration consultants. This Minister has totally overreacted with this bill. When we look at this bill we can see what this is all about. The Association for Migration and Investment took her to court. It won. She lost. She appealed. Now she wants to change the law. This is retrospective legislation. She has had legal advice, telling her that this is retrospective. It is bad legislation, done in a panic, in a knee-jerk manner. I am very fearful of the new loopholes and the new problems that it may create.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWhen we consider the points system, we see it has served us very well. In fact, a former Labour Minister claimed credit for the points system, and I quote David Caygill: \u201CI support the points system, and the Minister and other Government members might have been gracious enough to acknowledge that the Labour Government devised the points system. I do not say they invented it.\u201D That was said by David Caygill in responding to Bill Birch, in this House. This Government is overturning the existing categories and criteria, and one of the real concerns that is terrifying those involved in immigration is the incredible discretionary powers that this bill will give to senior officials\u2014senior immigration bureaucrats. The danger is that the bill will create massive inconsistencies throughout the country, in different regions, because of these delegated powers to senior bureaucrats. They are awesome powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b80ad69cb2c433e9b8898f3901ebfa0\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They are already delegated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226854e86b044f47e990b65d09a096fe44\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but what we have here is extended delegable powers, and the real fear is that that will create regional inconsistencies. That is the point that the Minister does not seem to have grasped. She certainly has not consulted the immigration consultants. We have heard various reports on that today. She says she did not consult because they would have taken financial advantage of the situation, if she had given them any warning. So rather than consult those who actually understand the business, and actually understand what is required, she went off on her own bat, drafted this legislation, and threw it into the House in a knee-jerk, panicked manner. I say we should all be very fearful of the new loopholes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da733ef2967d4f9bbf54f8ca8f2dd3b1\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: All good consultants have come out in favour of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022618503d3da7148a1b90423c916cab257\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The ones I was listening to on the wireless this morning certainly have not. Perhaps the Minister tunes into a different station, or perhaps she was not up that early. Certainly, the immigration consultants that I have heard commenting on this bill are not in favour of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe should bear in mind that their first chance to comment, or even to examine it, was after it had been introduced to this House, and that is the real shame. There was no consultation. The bill was drafted by the Minister, who was driven by her hatred for the immigration industry, and we should all be very concerned about the new problems that it will, inevitably, create. Whenever this Government has panicked and brought in legislation under urgency, it has always got it wrong. The sad thing is it does not learn. It keeps repeating the same mistake. We know that adults learn by their mistakes, but it seems that this Cabinet does not learn by its mistakes. It keeps repeating the same mistake in this respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EACT will be opposing this legislation. We believe that it is bad legislation, and we are fearful of what it will do. It sends the wrong signals. It will not give stability. What about the people who have planned ahead and made the decision to immigrate? What bigger decision can people make than to immigrate to a new country\u2014to bring their skills and their talents here? Now they find that the rules have changed on them, after they have made their applications and after their applications have been received. It is retrospective; that is the worst aspect of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022 data-id=\u0022063e7d24a3e041e39704a16b63c3893d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022063e7d24a3e041e39704a16b63c3893d\u0022\u003EGRAHAM KELLY (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to support the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), and I do so for a very fundamental reason. For years and years we have had good people, qualified people, coming here, but there has been a mismatch in terms of where they go, because they go where jobs may not be available. They have tended to congregate in the north of New Zealand\u2014in Auckland\u2014and we know about the problems, the infrastructure difficulties, that this Parliament is going to have to address because Auckland has grown faster than the rest of the country. This bill will promote balanced growth around the country. Regions that need skilled people will get skilled people. Those people will not end up in one part of the country, as they do now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022\u003EThis bill will provide what employers want. Employers have said to me, and I guess they have said it to every other member of the House, that they find it difficult to get this or that sort of specialist person. It has simply driven them mad over the years with frustration. The bill will end that. The regional inconsistencies that Ken Shirley talked about will disappear, because there will be a consistent approach to filling a need\u2014to matching skills with the vacancies that exist. So we will not have our industries congregating in Auckland, and closing down in other areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022\u003EThe good immigration consultants are in favour of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5ca88236194afd91618c78238961d3\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294904655b6fc436b9555ed8653d1e509\u0022\u003EGRAHAM KELLY\u003C/span\u003E: They are in favour of it. I shall finish by mentioning one story. I was recently in Canada, which was proposing, at the beginning of last October, to change its immigration laws so that its immigration policy would target outlying areas where populations had decreased. Immigrants would have to live there for 10 years. I discussed that with the Minister shortly after, and I think that what we have done is even better. In Canada there is no guarantee that immigrants\u2019 skills will match what employers want. What we are doing with this bill will give us the best of both worlds. I am very happy to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022abf7d65b60db481fbd5b6d4a5973fb48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022abf7d65b60db481fbd5b6d4a5973fb48\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That member, who is very happy to support a very good bill, as he says, gave it precious little time in this House to point out its so-called good points. But the reality of it all is that the Minister of Immigration just the other night was asked a question about whether she had brought this Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) to Parliament to offset her dramatic loss in a court case, and she had the effrontery to say no, when every other New Zealander knows that the answer is yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EBut my real point is this: from the kind of speech made by Mr Kelly and members of the United Future party\u2014whatever \u201CUnited Future\u201D means\u2014it is clear they do not understand at all what is going on. If those men from the United Future party do not believe me, they should have a look at today\u0027s Dominion Post, where a so-called independent source comes to the same conclusion. If we look on page 1, we see these words in respect of the changes: \u201CBut they could also benefit foreign tertiary students, including many from China. She indicated they would get priority, especially if they had a job offer.\u201D What it all means is pretty significant. If we look at the Waikato University analysis of just the end part of 2002, we see that it says that, in total, 190,000 people, including international students, were approved for permanent and temporary residence in the year ended June 2002. Then it says that only 52,800 were in the \u201Cimmigrant\u201D category\u2014their quotes not mine. What that really tells us is that 137,200 are in the category described in this morning\u2019s Dominion Post.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIn short, I say to the Minister that she has no idea whatsoever what she is doing. The Minister has no idea whatsoever as to what she is up to. She went on radio this morning and said: \u201COh, this bill will not affect anybody in New Zealand.\u201D Again, that is utter poppycock. She has no idea whom it will affect, because she simply has not had the analysis done, and simply because, as Waikato University pointed out in its analysis, thus far something like two-thirds ofNew Zealand\u2019s approvals for residence were granted to people who applied while they were in New Zealand on temporary work or student visas and permits. The Minister is shaking her head and saying no. That trade union lawyer has got the effrontery to argue that a person who is a professor of geography and deputy vice-chancellor is wrong and she is right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022818f9cee028846ec905cf6f006a7e715\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd74735bbc8a478cb7404d2d5eb10a15\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, no\u2014it is just arrogance of the worst sort. He says that in the year ended 30 June 2002, for example, almost two-thirds of New Zealand\u2019s approvals for residence were granted to people who had applied while they were in New Zealand on temporary work or student visas or permits. I recall being in China in 1997, and this country giving China an undertaking that the students we took from that country under our new visa arrangements would all be sent home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a8f280439fd44498e5c3e473d05067f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241c739a558b84e83b77400f310e5c241\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, we did. The Minister was not there so she does not know. I was and I do. The Chinese Government specifically said: \u201CWould you make sure, though, in making these new visa arrangements\u201D\u2014which were new, were being introduced for the first time ever\u2014\u201Cthat they are all sent back home.\u201D Now we find that two-thirds of those who get approval actually came here under the category of work or student visas or permits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhat is amazing about this Minister\u2019s policy is that we know it takes 3 percent of gross domestic product to provide work for those students who leave schools or tertiary institutions in our country. It takes 3 percent of gross domestic product. We have always known that; we have known that for 40 to 50 years. But we have gross domestic product of 2 percent coming up, and, probably, worse, so we will not be able to provide for our own students who are leaving our universities and schools, yet in will come not the 45,000 on the Minister\u2019s fact sheet, but something like 72,000-plus, which is the current rate of people migrating to this country. What does it mean? It means more gridlock, more demand on services, and more charges that are a loss for the New Zealand people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThere is one other thing I want to say while I am on the question of the bill before us. The Minister, in seeking to get around the case she lost on 16 May of this year, and having said on, I think, 17 June this year that she was going to go to a higher court of appeal, namely the Court of Appeal\u2014she said she had such a good case that she was going to appeal\u2014decided that somehow she might have got it wrong, and that she should bring a bill to Parliament, and get a bunch of wide boys with no experience, namely the United Future party, to back it so that the Government could get it through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31b6b712aef4cfc8c427b89c3f232dc\u0022\u003EEdwin Perry\u003C/span\u003E: Did she win?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295de1d90ceb949a6b2b285231ce6ce9a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, she lost. But, never mind, that trade union lawyer said: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about it. I know that the High Court got it wrong. I will go off to the Court of Appeal and I will have that decision overturned.\u201D So why did she not have it overturned? How can we believe a Minister who says no, when asked whether that was the reason for the bill? What sort of integrity has such a Minister got? Barefaced! And the other proponent in that case, sitting on the other side of the television set, someone called Milnes, knew it was not true, as I knew it was not true. Of course, we had the \u201Cdeer in the headlights\u201D performance again, where her idea was: \u201CI\u2019ll just keep talking\u2014no matter if I don\u2019t make any sense\u2014and make sure that they can\u2019t get a word in edgeways.\u201D There it was\u2014open mouth, disengaged brain, let it all go! But unfortunately it did not look good on television. Just to make sure, I asked my colleagues how the Minister looked. They said: \u201CActually, Winston, it was pathetic and sad.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is sad that Labour should think that on this key issue, a determinant for the next election, it can get away with saying it has changed the policy. But the Dominion Post is on to it. The Dominion Post knows that Labour has not changed the policy. If we look at the bill, we see again that all the Government has done is reshuffle the immigration queues, and, worse still, deny tens of thousands of people their rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMy question to Mr Hereora, who is about to rise to his feet\u2014and I hope he makes a longer speech than Georgina Beyer did; she spoke for 30 seconds\u2014is this: can we have 10 minutes on how this bill is good for the tangata whenua whom he claims to represent? How is the bill good for south Auckland M\u0101ori? Perhaps he can tell us how many M\u0101ori around the marae of this country support mass immigration of 72,000 foreigners per year? Before he rises, perhaps he can ask Mr Horomia what Ng\u0101ti Porou think of all of this. Frankly, we are sick to death of what I call \u201CSunday afternoon M\u0101ori\u201D. On a Sunday afternoon they get out and parade their M\u0101oriness, but when they get down to Parliament on Tuesday, they forget about the people who put them there. [Interruption] They stand for M\u0101ori seats; do members realise that the proportion of M\u0101ori seats is less now than it ever was in history?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224093d496319841d7990e5d51b86b3a40\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f3aa4f78be34c689b982464f8bbba40\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Do members realise\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221454d95964364a3791a3e0a08f5bee4d\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What nonsense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06f91603ae146c9a1063baffe1e9ed3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Chris Carter says: \u201CWhat nonsense!\u201D Who does he represent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292d0efbab8b14f83b0cc9aa874121339\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: 50,000 people in Te Atatu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da9be041e36f44be9ca6e91b35ad2fed\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, he does not. If it were not for the Labour Party, he would not have made it to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e438c3cc31ed4927b2c34a331d78ebf8\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I have got a bigger majority than you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249312a634b0840e0bb471b2e319a26bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87b904fbe70451aba0c725a2bfafc6b\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc2758a21594b1db791c97ab391e2c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not make himself look silly. I say to him: \u201CDo not make me laugh!\u201D. He does not. The reality of it all is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f01d2b096994ffb888bb107c4dd5288\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but his time has expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022653c65ef48e942b4997c00f7c86bd291\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for an extension of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2670b43c064470a8e871690bb7f4c56\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for an extension of time. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022506b973681f14444abf33ceb448b67d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022506b973681f14444abf33ceb448b67d6\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this bill. I congratulate the Minister of Immigration on articulating a practical way of benchmarking a process of selection, and, more important\u2014and I agree with my colleague Graham Kelly\u2014on acknowledging the call from employers, who have continually complained to me about the skills shortage. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad796c3f10da4621a23d156a6fbc0425\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad796c3f10da4621a23d156a6fbc0425\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I think the New Zealand Herald\u2019s headline says it all for the two immigration bills that are being rushed through this House: \u201CGovt shuts door on migrants\u201D. The Dominion Post went further and actually identified the changes that negatively affect, in particular, potential migrants from China and India. That, indeed, was the intention of the legislation. The only mystery is why the Labour Minister of Immigration continues to deny that this immigration policy was introduced to restrict the number of migrants. Last night Mr Paul Adams of United Future was at least being honest. He admitted that United Future and Labour actually looked up the New Zealand First immigration policy and modelled this policy on it, in terms of migrants\u2019 intentions and contribution to New Zealand. But we will come back to that slightly later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to take up the point that the Minister of Immigration, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, was very upset with the immigration consultants organisation, the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment. She said it embraced some consultants who were not doing their job properly. I remember that she promised about 4 or 5 years ago, when she was in Opposition, that when she became the Minister of Immigration she would fix those immigration consultants who were ruthless and not doing a good job. I wonder what happened to that promise to sort out those immigration consultants whom she blamed for causing problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022110449452e0d498d9e9bcda043cdef45\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this got to do with the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a9b33b0d41641d5bb397d66ba5cd844\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, so the Opposition is not even allowed to ask a valid question! It has everything to do with it, because you raised it when you were giving your second reading speech about immigration consultants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d06563c19b74547b755110cf74f446a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was not doing anything. Please do not bring me into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083505aa00774dc9bdd1830668e89077\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry about that. I would never dream of implicating you in that way. You have been very tolerant and understanding. I am sure this debate will go very well. The Opposition is seeking a lot more calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis piece of legislation has two parts to it. First of all, it will enable the Immigration Service to prioritise applicants on a global base. The Minister of Immigration tried to tell us that that is sensible. The Hon Michael Cullen also said that that sounds eminently sensible, as potential migrants should be prioritised on a global base, and their ranking should not be based on whether they go to the immigration offices that have the most staff and can assess potential migrants. The only trouble is I read a lot more into that. I think any coded statement like \u201Cglobal prioritisation\u201D basically means that New Zealand can favour migrants from European and English-speaking countries. I think it is a shame, because since 1987 the public has continually been told by Labour that the Labour Government\u2019s changes to immigration legislation had removed bias against any country in terms of attracting potential migrants. I think \u201Cglobal prioritisation\u201D is a coded phrase, and means that the Labour Government has reintroduced a system that is less than transparent in giving priority to English-speaking migrants. I would put my money on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOf course, the Government has the right to do that. What the Opposition wants is for Labour to come out and admit it, and then at least we can debate the merit of it. For Labour not to admit that that was the intention, and to use phrases like \u201Cglobal prioritisation\u201D, is, indeed, very strange. If the Minister is so confident in saying that if an overseas office of the Immigration Service has more staff than others, it should not process migrants, is she trying to tell us that New Zealand will also centralise the whole Immigration Service, and bring its overseas staff back to New Zealand? If, indeed, \u201Cglobal prioritisation\u201D is the way to go, one will see the Immigration Service in this country expand its staffing resources, and some of the overseas offices consequently will have their staffing requirement reduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe have a lot more questions to ask, and I hope the Minister will continue to take calls to answer some of the questions that remain a mystery to us on this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EPart 2 deals with the court case that the Labour Government lost to the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment. This case was to do with the Labour Government failing to obtain expert advice, and deciding, shall I say, to enforce a policy that it now argues is not correct. It wanted to enforce an immigration policy that if applicants who had submitted their applications for immigration before 19 November did not have enough points, they could embark on a period of grace for job seeking. During that period the policy has changed. The immigration consultants tried to persuade the Minister that, for those people who had submitted applications before 19 November, the same rules should apply and they should have a few months\u2019 grace to make up the extra points. The Minister would not listen. The judge said it was very clear that people who had submitted applications before 19 November should have the same rules applied to them if their applications have not been assessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Minister was very confident that the judge was wrong, and told the public that she would appeal. But yesterday, under urgency, we were suddenly faced with a piece of legislation that indicates that the Minister was no longer confident that the appeal case would be won. That is why we are being dragged here\u2014to cover up a mistake. The Minister should have accepted that the judgment against her in the first place was the correct one. We are about to embark on the Committee stage, yet many questions remain unanswered, and the Opposition will certainly continue to raise them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257353143703845eb94b90b454f107bf4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002225ad96c9baaf46de9eac33c3c6e2232d\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00220d59cbe3f8ed481c8b50544258f842d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d59cbe3f8ed481c8b50544258f842d4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228b6f166e01c146b7b0df25ef75bc388a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 54\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002227f3994f16ab410fbe4214c61f1aaba0\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248db3801bc474fdb811d001220a04dc9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before we begin, I remind members that as this bill has not been to a select committee, the title debate will be wider than usual. Members can discuss the bill as a whole, though they should not range wider than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022584441f58f7d4416b014807c00b89d19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022584441f58f7d4416b014807c00b89d19\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (Junior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Thank you for mentioning that we should stay within the confines of the bill, but, of course, the bill is a reference to the cancellation of the court case concerning the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment Inc. If we read the court case, we see that it goes virtually through sections 13A, 13B, and 13C of the Immigration Act. It looks at section 14, and has a good look at the issue of the general skills capacity as it relates to that case. Our debate will, obviously, have to refer to the sections referred to in the court case. We will stay within the scope of the bill, but if the court case takes us to section 13 and other sections, we must be entitled to refer to those sections, as well. So, with respect, I suggest that we are entitled to refer to the various aspects of law referred to in the court case that this Government, effectively, is attempting to repeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3ec9c8bd0fd44aa8d5e09b14d955f45\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that we should not go too widely into aspects of the court case, but I will use my discretion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2b90dfe6bd04562b6fb490c6fd60c58\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00226b4b9cbf95414b85886b78ee04fddd02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b4b9cbf95414b85886b78ee04fddd02\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The title of this bill is the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), and we have raised many times in the past the fact that contemporary legislation requires the title to be more transparent and informative. I suggest that variations of that title that would be a lot more informative to the public would be titles like the \u201CImmigration (Government Shuts Door on Migrants) Bill\u201D or the \u201CImmigration (Rejection of Application Without Transparent Reasons) Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is, indeed, quite disturbing to be debating this legislation, under urgency, under a very uninformative title. The Government\u2019s spin is that the reason for introducing the legislation under urgency is that it could have led to a major increase in applications. In this case, that reason is extremely weak because the legislation could be introduced with a time line, and certainly would not lead to a flood of applications. On the contrary, it actually allows the Minister of Immigration and the department very wide-ranging powers. In this case, about 10,000 applications will be dropped because the Minister has simply said that those applicants would not contribute to New Zealand. If that is the case, I wonder why their applications were accepted in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI think that the Minister should take a call and tell us why she did not have a more transparent title for this legislation that would tell the public that this particular bill is an \u201CImmigration (Close the Door) Bill\u201D. Or it could be an Immigration (Legislating Away the Fruits of Victory) Bill\u201D, because the second part of the legislation is to do with the lack of confidence of the Minister to win an appeal case against the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn the case of this bill, when people look at the title they might think that it is just a technical amendment, because some Labour Party members have stood up and said that it was a good bill consisting of technical amendments. I reckon that the Minister should take a call to explain that the bill goes a lot further than consisting of just technical amendments. She should take some time in explaining not just to the Opposition but to her own caucus that this little bill goes a lot further than that. It empowers the Minister and the department to lapse applications without having to give those applicants very, very good reasons for their applications not being processed any further. Why have those applicants, apart from receiving refunds, had to wait for 2 years just to have this change suddenly hoisted upon them? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis title certainly does this bill no justice. It is a bill that has far-reaching and wide-ranging implications. It will impact negatively on New Zealand\u2019s status internationally whereby applicants, who have waited for 2 years and who have no idea that their applications will not be paid due consideration, under the guise of this bill being passed in urgency, will now receive letters from the Immigration Service that do not give them very good reasons for their applications not proceeding further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022538bf42a561345fc889df1b5d2bfd591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022538bf42a561345fc889df1b5d2bfd591\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This bill\u2019s title should not read the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), but the \u201CLianne Dalziel (How I Stuffed Up on Immigration) Bill\u201D, the \u201CHow to Climb Down from an Immigration High Horse Gracefully Bill\u201D, or the \u201CI Don\u2019t Know What I am Doing but I Like the Baubles of Office Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIf members look at paragraph 94 of the court case they will see that the judge said: \u201CA theme of the Minister\u2019s submission was that the job-search visa might not be granted, and that, in any event, the Minister had a discretion as to whether or not it should be granted. It was also submitted that even if the job-search visa were granted, a relevant job offer might not be obtained. All this\u201D\u2014said the judge\u2014\u201Cis beside the point. The plaintiff seeks only that general skills applicants should have the opportunity to apply for job-search visas under policy existing at the time of their residence application, whether or not the application is ultimately successful.\u201D There it is, in a nutshell. The Minister got it wrong, but not just in a small way, she got it wrong for tens of thousands of people who had a right, through their immigration agents, to bring their case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESo what does she do? She sets out to damn immigration agents\u2014all of whom she has empowered, of course\u2014and then she says something else which she knows nothing about. She says these people are all overseas. She does not know that, of course. She does not know anything about her portfolio, and my evidence for that is that there are almost 20,000 overstayers in this country. In a computerised society she has no idea where they are. That does not happen in any other business I know of. If a library book is overdue, the day it is overdue up flips a card, and someone goes and finds where that book is and who the last borrower was. It should be likewise for immigration. In a computerised society, the day a person does not leave and appears not to have left, up comes the card, and the department goes and finds where 20,000 people are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc46598e9f7947acbf1a01d1bf17581f\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t want to do that, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dad716deb5844cdd889817f772dc3d73\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, the department does not want to do that, does it? That is because it has such crap programs, and administrative devices that do not work, that it has no idea what is going on. Yet she has the effrontery to go on radio and television saying it is all about foreigners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225309f0d69ed44a0698014bed8f303951\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: They don\u2019t have the will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f33a31f0444e6a8cb68a31c7ec4d53\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government does not have the will, it does not have the nous, it does not have the wit, and, above all, it does not have the commitment to this country\u2019s long-term economic and social interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EIt is extraordinarily embarrassing to see someone who has legal training\u2014I do not know what sort of legal training\u2014come along and argue that retrospective legislation is of no moment. Members will know there is a party that prides itself on decency and family values; I wonder which party that is. Members would probably think that a party that says it is for family values would consider fairness a family value, would they not? Members would think that treating people as equals before the law was a family value, would they not? They would think upholding rights under the law was a family value. But for the United Future party, it is not. A family value for that party is hugging up to the Government and being a doormat so its members can keep their jobs. Those members know that if they were to stand up for their own people and for the interests of the people of this country, there would be a snap election\u2014goodbye United Future, goodbye salary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d23899ed4044073a260243028f1d4f6\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: Goodbye Pork Pie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022381a4e25f47340e7ae9aed3cd616d3a6\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Goodbye Pork Pie. The question of retrospectivity is the core of this issue. The question of whether we can just legislate away people\u2019s rights goes to the heart of how Parliament operates. Lianne Dalziel, having screwed up and mucked up, would not be getting away with it were it not for Peter Dunne and his merry men. That is a fact. I thought these United Future people, when they campaigned, were people of honour. I thought they were people of integrity. There was not a family value they did not stand for: Easter, Christmas holidays, the tooth fairy\u2014you name it, they were for it. But they are not for fundamental human rights, they are not for standing up for the law, and they are not for doing their duty. That is why both the Labour Party and United Future will go down at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI will tell the Committee why that is. Lianne Dalziel just found out\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002290c85aa2768b4954a99b63311ad7ab17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290c85aa2768b4954a99b63311ad7ab17\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a20c5160c2d42baa268ae538ac5c019\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I struck a nerve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ac1e4922e524da2aa6cd715779f1a1f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The only nerve that has been struck by the member is the one that has reacted to the fact that I never thought I would ever sit in this Chamber and hear that member promote the interests of migrants coming to New Zealand. I am absolutely gobsmacked to be hearing that member stand up and justify the bringing to New Zealand of up to 10,000 migrants who have applied for residence in New Zealand when there is not one shred of evidence\u2014to use a phrase that is well known to that member\u2014that they will ever get work in their area of profession, expertise, or skill. And that member wants us to continue to invite people to this country, when we know they are being set up to fail, not set up to succeed. The Rt Hon Winston Peters is arguing that in this Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am going to quote from a letter I received from a man who is here from India on a job-search visa. He wrote to the Prime Minister earlier this year, and I think it is important that people hear what he says. He says to me in this letter that his job-search visa does not expire until September, but he has already booked to go home, and that is as a result of the multiple job rejections he has suffered in the time he has been here under a job-search visa. There is no guarantee of residence when one gets a job-search visa. There is a 6-month period, non-transferable and non-extendable, to come and look for a job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHe speaks of meeting other Indians, 95 percent of whom he says are working in menial jobs. In fact, he tells me in the letter that they have actually even had to undersell their own qualifications\u2014pretend they are not engineers; pretend they are not highly skilled migrants\u2014so they can work as forecourt attendants in garages, as cleaners, or as farm labourers. It is an outrage that any member of this Committee would support that occurring. He is going home because he has pride. He said he is prepared to take a step down on the ladder, but he is not prepared to go to the bottom of the ladder and start all over again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis is what he says in his letter: \u201CIn my case, I am almost ruined. I left my Class 1 engineer post in India, and I have already spent about half a million rupees. Even I had to ask my son in the UK to send some money meant for his studies.\u201D That is what the current policy does to people. It brings people here to fail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222567f133fa534678b8ba0f8e8cd799a1\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Your policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bff4221cffb4d3caebe89c537d8141c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The member says it is my policy, but it is not. It was the policy I inherited. People can argue about how long it has taken to address it, but that is not the issue. The issue is that this Government has the courage to face up to the fact that we cannot allow that policy to continue to operate in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill does three things. It introduces global prioritisation so that those people with relevant job offers are able to have their cases determined first. Of course that will advantage those migrants who have their residence applications in the system, who are already in New Zealand, and who already have job offers. Those people are going to be at the top of the list. They will be advantaged by the changes we are ensuring can be introduced. We are lapsing applications from those who applied last year and who do not have high points, a job-search visa, or a skilled job offer. Why would we not lapse them? If we did not lapse them, we would be inviting them to come to New Zealand to fail, and New Zealanders have had an absolute gutsful of seeing engineers, Korean pharmacists, Indian information technology specialists, and Russian agricultural scientists\u2014these are real people I have met\u2014who should not be in our country driving taxis. If they come to our country they should come here to do their real jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022951c6fae7d554b479a6b29c949a36768\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022951c6fae7d554b479a6b29c949a36768\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E We are here in the Committee stage, under urgency, debating the title to this bill, which, as Mr Peters has told the Committee, is a monument to the failure of the current Minister and her predecessor over the last 4 years. I turn, first of all, to the fact that we are dealing with this matter under urgency. On a previous occasion when an immigration bill was before the House, a member had this to say about dealing with immigration matters in this way: \u201CI do not appreciate a Government using the urgency provisions of Parliament in order to avoid due process. Due process would require the matter to be referred to a select committee \u2026\u201D. There is more: \u201CThese matters ought to be addressed in terms of proper process \u2026\u201D, said the member. \u201CI say that is not good enough. That is not how the Labour Party will work in practice. We will allow for open government, for proper consultative processes, and for real involvement of members of Parliament in these decisions.\u201D That is wonderful stuff! Members are still guessing who said that, I see. It was the Minister in the chair, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, when she was in Opposition and was attacking a former Minister for using the urgency provisions to make changes in exactly in the way that she has embarked on the use of urgency today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister in the chair that those words will come back to haunt her time and time again this morning, because there is a word that starts with \u201Ch\u201D that the Standing Orders will not allow me to use in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a3678408884d40a86e3a59ad5fdf8b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It ends with a \u201Cc\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3305908ad68457db710adc87c6e34d7\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: It ends with a \u201Cy\u201D, actually. Members who say when they are in Opposition that they will do one thing, and then come to the Chamber and do another when they are in Government are the ultimate enactment of the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D. Ministers who do that deserve to be roasted when they bring their bills to the Committee, and that Minister will be roasted by Opposition speaker after Opposition speaker for an ultimate act to which that \u201Ch\u201D word applies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI also lament the fact that we are here in urgency because the toadies and lackeys of the United Future party have decided to sign up to the use of urgency without even testing the questions that they should properly have asked. I have been doing some research on them. Mr Peters expressed an interest in knowing what was in United Future\u2019s policy, given that party\u2019s strong commitment to the rule of law, family values, and so on. I tell Mr Peters and other members of the Committee today what United Future members had to say. They said: \u201CUnited Future is committed to policy which gives certainty to immigrants\u201D\u2014certainty to immigrants\u2014\u201Cand provides a mutual benefit for them and existing citizens. Immigration is seen as entirely positive and beneficial. We must have faith that our immigration policies are fair, objective, and sustainable.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe United Future members have done a grubby little deal with the Minister of Immigration to support the use of urgency in order to try to cover up that Minister\u2019s and this Government\u2019s 4-year mess in the immigration area, to change the circumstances retrospectively of a large number of Africans who have applied to become New Zealanders, and, what is more, to change retrospectively the decision of a High Court judge that is currently before the Court of Appeal. The United Future party, which stands for the rule of law, has decided to help the Minister out. Having lost the case in the High Court and having told the country on 17 June that she would go to the Court of Appeal, the United Future party has come along and told the Minister not to worry about the old appeal court judges. It has said the Minister need not bother with them, because it would help her to slide some legislation through under urgency in the middle of the night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u002287fe793806bd4fa08f7c0b4d470ddcfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287fe793806bd4fa08f7c0b4d470ddcfb\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I have heard the name United Future a few times in the last few speeches, and what a great name it is: a united future for New Zealand. I think it is a fantastic name. United Future is pleased to support this legislation, because we are working towards a better New Zealand for all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAt the current time, in an industry that I am involved in, the motor industry, there is a shortage of tradespeople. This legislation will bring them up according to priority, and we will be able to have more mechanics. Winston Peters will be very pleased to know that we are training New Zealanders through the apprenticeships scheme so that they can also become mechanics and work within this country. But we also recognise that there are skills shortages in a lot of trades right throughout this nation, and this legislation will bring in priorities so that we will be able to address those shortages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWinston also accused United Future of selling out its supporters. Does he not remember that in\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcc49c3c10b94931acde7d3f97cd7f0c\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable member cannot refer to someone by his or her first name. Speaker\u2019s ruling 6/1 (Supplement) states that the reference must be to the member\u2019s full name, title, or portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea52e7c0b8ab4df295fc935f5d9f73e2\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: The Rt Hon Winston Peters\u2014that name has a nice ring to it. He is very charismatic and I enjoy his speeches, but it is the same old record. We need to hear something new. We need something for the future, and we do not want to play the record again, I say to Winston Peters. Does he not remember that in the leaders\u2019 debate on Television One before the last election it was Peter Dunne who made the very popular suggestion that the shortage of rural doctors could be solved by making it easier for qualified immigrant doctors to fulfil that role? This bill will enable that to occur, by prioritising those applicants for residency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI stand to confirm that United Future supports this bill, because we believe it is good legislation. We believe it will be good for New Zealand and will get the country moving again. We want there to be a united future in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0d64b4d86b049488a567b7d1f4faf65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0d64b4d86b049488a567b7d1f4faf65\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E That was an extraordinary contribution from Paul Adams. While he accuses other parties of singing from the same record, we just wish the United Future party would keep calling from the same record. We see in this bill the exact opposite of what the electorate was told the United Future party would bring to Parliament; it said it would bring good parliamentary process. How many lectures have I had to listen to in this Chamber from the Hon Peter Dunne about good parliamentary process? What is good, I ask Mr Adams, about announcing a bill at 4 p.m. yesterday and taking it through all stages under urgency this week, with zero public consultation? How can we justify that, I ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, in terms of her track record and public comments? Does the Minister deny what she said in Parliament on 15 June 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262adf7d4237a4493b46fecfb167db46c\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022918e497b8731425f84ec172a4f9b7578\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister change her mind, I ask her? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d97b051fdb6415cad5da1ef99554f81\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Because this is a different set of circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b45ead8b09024e84b7a3e8561b3378a1\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E There we have it. Even the Minister could not keep a straight face when she said that \u201Cthis is a different set of circumstances\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Minister and the Labour Government have now been in office for 3 years and 8 months. The policies that the Government proposes to change have been in place for all that period. Why, I ask the Minister, does Parliament need to change in a day a policy that has been in place for 15 years? Why is she treating this Parliament with such disrespect? Even though the court decision came down in May, it was good enough for the Minister to have 6 weeks. It was good enough for Labour to sit on this policy for 4 years, but New Zealand\u2019s Parliament is being asked to ride roughshod and push this bill through in less than 24 hours. I say that that is an outrage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI ask the members of the United Future party whether that is what they meant when they said they would stand up for proper parliamentary process. I think not. Is it not interesting how the United Future party was to be the new migrants party? United Future members were to be a great multicultural lot who would stand up for the rights of migrants, yet they act as the doormat any day that the Government wants to push through legislation to trample all over the rights of people who have, in good faith, set aside money and made life plans to come to this country, and who are now being ridden over roughshod. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIn all those greasy meetings of the Prime Minister and the Minister in the chair when they dribbled all over migrants\u2014whether they be from Asia, North America, or Europe\u2014the Labour Party said it was the pro-migrant party. But when the Minister scratches a bit of an itch, whammo, she is prepared to dump all over them. And thousands of people will have made life decisions on the basis of the assurances given by this Minister. She is wrecking lives by trampling all over people retrospectively. She thinks it is funny; she thinks it is a joke. I ask the Minister why she will not give those people the right to be heard at a select committee. Why will United Future not even give the people who are affected by the changes in this bill the opportunity to be heard at a select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f1fe0726d354a5b8a32039989486b9a\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: For what purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb0ada09f29401a8a67c905993314fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it could be to be heard. It could be that migrants have a point of view. It could be something to do with what she said in 1999: that this process was a breach of United Nations principles. In 1999 Lianne Dalziel raved on about great process, and accused the Government of breaching the United Nations principles, saying, \u201CThis is not how the Labour Party will work in practice.\u201D, and that is exactly what this Government is doing. It is riding roughshod over good parliamentary process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E This bill will be a mess. Legislation that is passed in this sort of rushed process always ends up doing things that are not intended, and I say the Minister should rethink.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002282bd97c96f9d4141a49628fd39d58fb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282bd97c96f9d4141a49628fd39d58fb5\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First opposes this legislation, which is clearly rushed legislation. It breaches all constitutional aspects. It is part of our traditional parliamentary process that legislation should go to a select committee, and this legislation is not to go to a select committee. Obviously, the Minister in the chair, the Hon Lianne Dalziel is dreadfully embarrassed about the entire mess of her portfolio, and this bill should really be called the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Why Lianne Dalziel Should Resign as Minister of Immigration) Bill\u201D forthwith, because she is totally out of touch with her portfolio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen we look at why this bill is before the House and at the court case, we see that all the plaintiff wanted to do was to allow general skills applicants to have the opportunity to apply for a general skills visa under existing policy at that time. There appears to be a distinction made in that case between those people who had their visas cancelled from 20 November 2002 onwards and those who did not have their visas cancelled prior to that date. As I read the case and the legislation, it seems to me that if one had lodged an application before 19 November, the court case states in paragraph 97 that: \u201CThe announced policy is not invalid insofar as it relates to persons who have been invited to make a job-search visa application prior to 20 November 2002.\u201D That seems to be the situation there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Minister just seems to want those people who are merely applying for a visa, and who have lodged their application, to be unable to continue with their application.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cffac667ce54a8bacd9b01f630e8007\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: If they have lodged an application for a job-search visa they are OK; their applications are not lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d026f66499d74991b0669ef6b7be0c64\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: OK, so if they have lodged their application for a job-search visa they are OK, but if they have not lodged their application and are in the process of doing that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3fa0c19d7f44d9e809da92d2be3b69a\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No. If they have been invited to lodge an application they are OK; they will not be lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad432fca21f34429959a42302bf9a470\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Only if they have been invited, but if they have not been invited\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226432be21de2645859fa59d294da9d289\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: If they have not been invited to lodge an application for a job search visa they will be lapsed, unless they have 28 points or more or have the offer of a skilled job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9852e7fbb3b4dac92ffc8f03ef3d632\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate the Minister taking the time to try to explain the situation, but would it not have been very much better if we had been able to go to a select committee and discuss the matter there? We could then have had a clear indication of what was happening. But I paused so that the Minister could at least make that contribution to the Committee and we would be better informed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EHowever, from reading the Dominion Post today, it seems that if one is in New Zealand now one will get a head start under this legislation, as opposed to those who have followed the previous practice and waited to lodge their application, having gone through all the proper rigmaroles. Those who have taken the time and trouble to comply with the law as it stood when lodging their application, and who are not yet in New Zealand, will be out of luck, because this Minister is saying that people from overseas who are in New Zealand on other types of visas will have priority over those who are not here\u2014even though they may be here on totally different grounds, and may not be as eligible as someone else who may have applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EFor example, we have 63,500 people here who have been admitted under temporary work policies, so their situation may be changed by the very fact that they are here now only as immigrants under a temporary work policy. We also have another 73,800 people who are covered by student visas and permits. In terms of the New Zealand Immigration Service\u2019s statistics for 2002, all those people are part of the 190,000 people who were here as immigrants in the year 2002. As set out in today\u2019s Dominion Post and in terms of this policy, it seems that the group of 63,500 people and the group of 73,800 people can apply well and truly in advance of anybody else. So it would seem that a person who is here as an English-language student\u2014and one\u2019s English is obviously not very good if that is the case\u2014would have a head start over someone who can already speak English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd3383d764a4fe98d4a54ea3f807ee9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d28f65e595cb41e2bd1083dd9fd9ca0d\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Well, people in that situation must have a head start, because they are here now. As the Dominion Post stated: \u201CBut they could also benefit foreign tertiary students, including many from China. She indicated\u201D\u2014referring to the Minister\u2014\u201Cthey would get priority, especially if they had a job offer.\u201D We know what some of those job offers are\u2014we have all sorts of immigration consultants running all sorts of schemes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00223c3e666209534d26a8e4d18467564d23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c3e666209534d26a8e4d18467564d23\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I am thankful for the opportunity to speak on the title of this bill. I will start off by laying out an offer to listeners to Parliament and all those interested in this bill that is running roughshod over genuine immigrants wanting to come to this country. The offer is this: could someone please send the Minister another letter? Because in the 4 years that this Government has been in power, she has had only one letter from one supporter, which she keeps bringing to this House time and time again to justify her position. Where was that letter from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d3e896d2fd04c7ead3e6bd24b807384\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I got it only this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d66bdfc1ea54ba8bd94efe2b97085c7\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister tells us that she received a letter in support of her work only this year. What country was that letter from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e120d28312400d8af1e72ec062ad93\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The guy was in New Zealand on a job-search visa.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cb3d0594bf1416c9a27c3860d783c69\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: From what country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224603c5769c4e49dc864199c87dc1fdf1\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: From India.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e1b1d4eaad64b4bb4814ebba2af6b8c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister informs us that her cousin from India wrote her a letter. The only support she can get in 4 years is one letter from her cousin, which she keeps bringing down to this House to dish out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d11ed6b22ca4b7c942a73d6b75e0196\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Stop misrepresenting me!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e898126584bf416bafe0f999c7a39458\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, I do not know how close the family member is who keeps writing to the Minister, but I just ask someone to please send the Minister another letter of support. After 4 long years, and 15 years of this policy being in place, we want to know that this Minister has other supporters out there. I ask her supporters to please write to her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe are here under urgency to debate this bill. I want to support my colleague Pansy Wong\u2014I support her in virtually every enterprise that she undertakes\u2014in changing the name of this bill to the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Rejection of Application Without Reasons) Bill\u201D, because that is what it is. I want to make the Minister painfully aware of the New Zealanders out there, and of those people out there who want to come and remain in this country\u2014those genuine potential settlers in this country. Clearly, in the last couple of years since she became a Minister, she has not been turning up to her electorate office to face genuine people who want to come to this country and contribute. She has not faced them, or walked with them through 2 years of applications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMy electorate office actually helps the Immigration Service process many of those applications and advises the Minister\u2019s office of that. That Minister has not walked through the process with those people for 2 years; she has not taken them through all those hoops, jumped over all those hurdles, held their hands, rung them back, written letters, and advocated for them\u2014only to find that this Government legislates over all that work and all those genuine applications. To be blindsided through legislation introduced into the House and passed over 48 hours, and to be blindsided after 2 years\u2019 work, is so very soul-destroying. Perhaps the Minister should turn up to her electorate office, start working with people on the ground, and experience those genuine cases. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI know there are cases that are not genuine. I know that people want to come to this country who have nothing to offer. I know that the Minister lets those people in willy-nilly, then loses track of them. I believe she has lost track of 20,000 people. Why is the Minister riding roughshod over those genuine people who want to come to this country and contribute? I do not know. It is certainly turning the corner on what she has said previously. The way she has done it is highly disheartening, and I do not like to question her professionalism. To say in this House, amongst colleagues who previously had respect for this Minister: \u201CI do not appreciate a Government\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e139d3d62c9b4f418e36e47d4a3dc790\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Name one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291aefc97d7444300a693f4ad483896bf\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I can name several\u2014those members of United Future. I have seen those members following this Minister around, opening doors for her and brushing dust off her coat. They respect this Minister, but no one else does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002288077996e80f4409a7526d75ed76d975\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288077996e80f4409a7526d75ed76d975\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Lianne Dalziel is a Minister who has so little evidence to put up that she actually comes down with a letter and seeks to hide behind it\u2014that is, one letter from an Indian. She then said that 95 percent of them were in the category of being here and not being able to get jobs. I can recall a Lianne Dalziel marching up from the bottom of town with an Indian in a baseball cap who talked about stopping \u201C racism\u201D. There were a handful of MPs\u2014Chris Carter being one of them\u2014talking about stopping racism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb78fabd9a34096a4b021977d88b383\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208450f5d2b5f485685db7712b95524ec\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That man from the Punjab, whom the Minister was holding hands with, and whom she and Chris Carter came out in sympathy with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea4f4333226046bcb508f7f5fc3c2016\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, I wasn\u2019t even there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1991a295452420783217e2cc4da94d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister cannot make a speech from the chair. When I have finished, she can get up and make her speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EHere she is admitting every complaint New Zealand First has ever made. In the letter she says that 95 percent of this person\u2019s colleagues are all in the same category, and they cannot get jobs. I ask the Minister what the hell were they doing here? Were they accessing free medicine? Yes! Were they on a benefit? Yes! Could they get emergency housing? Yes! Who missed out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e04e2148cec64ecc9ba40a17076102d1\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: We did!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209626c5141ca423caeaf570eb104b6aa\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely! The second thing she said was that she would never see the day when Winston Peters and New Zealand First would stand up for the interests of migrants. She is so wrong. We have always believed that there should be a sound, rational, coherent internationally respected immigration policy, but that is not 72,000 migrants a year. That is probably between 10,000 and 15,000 a year. Who said that? Annette King said that when she was the spokesperson for Labour back in 1996, when it was polling 16 percent and we were polling 32 percent. Labour members decided to adopt our policy. They said that between 10,000 and 15,000 immigrants should be coming here, and in their time they brought in over 72,000 per year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EA little while ago the Minister said that this global prioritisation programme was an excellent idea. On Morning Report this morning she was asked: \u201CWho\u2019s going to administer the global prioritisation programme on the ground?\u201D. She did not know. Her answer was: \u201CWe\u2019ll do it through trade fairs.\u201D Here is the great spin-doctor of Helen Clark\u2019s office at work! The whole thing is to get rid of doctors driving taxis. We have to ask ourselves this question\u2014and it is a very simple one\u2014how many doctors are driving taxis? Are 72,000 doctors driving taxis? No! Are 1,000 doctors driving taxis? No! Are some hundreds driving taxis? Yes, but to get rid of the syndrome of overqualified people driving taxis, we are to take 72,000 alongside them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EUnited Future members then come along and say that they will support the policy, because New Zealand will get rural doctors\u201472,000 rural doctors now, apparently. That is extraordinarily naive on the part of United Future members, and it has no bearing whatsoever on the facts. I say to them one more time that the shape, face, character, and future of this country is being turned upside down beyond our parents\u2019 wildest recognition. Today one of the biggest sections of letters to that most liberal institution\u2014namely, Craccum of Auckland University\u2014comes from students who say: \u201CWhat the hell am I doing walking around this campus when I can\u2019t read anything in English there. It is all in Mandarin, Cantonese, and everything but English.\u201D A whole lot of students who would normally be liberal-minded are saying: \u201CI am being shut out of my own country. I\u2019m not getting a fair go in my own land.\u201D These are students who would normally be tolerant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0f53ff9e130409ba0956ff7bee9857f\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: What about M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fb901c2f8e74c5e99dc4a8e430527c1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The terrible thing about the M\u0101ori people is that\u2014apart from New Zealand First\u2014they have no voice at all in this Parliament. We just heard two M\u0101ori members take a call, which lasted for only 1 minute in total.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002257e8555405cf4c56b7e2c4279c34bd77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257e8555405cf4c56b7e2c4279c34bd77\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac05ff1c746a4299b2b4589adbef01cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac05ff1c746a4299b2b4589adbef01cb\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I draw to the attention of the Committee, although I am sure it has been drawn before, to the fact that we have a Minister in the chair who is a lawyer\u2014a paragon of constitutionalism. That is what she would say\u2014a paragon of constitutionalism. I have read a document\u2014which I heard her say earlier today that she did not resile from\u2014in which she said she did not appreciate a Government using urgency provisions in Parliament to avoid due process. That was said on 15 June 1999. [Interruption] Mr Clayton Cosgrove might say that the Minister should be spared the embarrassment of having that read out in this Committee. I have read about this Minister in the newspapers, and she has said to journalists that she takes the rule of law and her ministerial responsibilities very seriously. So what does she do in her first serious legislative action as a Minister? She breaches one of the most basic constitutional concepts\u2014that is, she takes people\u2019s rights away, misleads them, and deals cavalierly with 20,000 applicants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThere was another way here. The Minister could have dealt with those 20,000 applicants fairly and reasonably. She could have put some extra staff into the department and processed those applications. On this side of the House, we recognise that the old system of immigration did not quite work. My colleagues\u2014Murray McCully, Pansy Wong, and others\u2014have talked about the need to change the policy. It should be forward-looking. Another bill is now before the select committee that will deal with this issue, but that is no excuse whatsoever to run roughshod over the rights\u2014and they are rights\u2014of 20,000 people. It is no excuse to run roughshod over the courts, the judgment of Randerson J, and just say to 20,000 people: \u201CYou\u2019re out. Apply again and we might think about it\u2019\u2019\u2014notwithstanding that they have paid hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars for the application fee, and also fees to consultants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e181e6910b4397b058e4cdd080f3b3\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That they don\u2019t need to spend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284ab4a6b44af46b4a48f30302a8832ca\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: That they have to spend to get fair consideration by the deprtment. That is the truth, and everyone in this Committee knows it. Who could possibly believe that the Immigration Service is so competent that it does not need to use immigration consultants? This morning on radio I heard that the Minister had engaged Malcolm Pacific to process some applications for Southland\u2014and here is the Minister saying that immigration consultants are not needed. What absolute nonsense! At least she could tell the truth in this Committee today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232dfaf128958488f8898b524ddd3358b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e55412247d1e4518898a9f670bf0aaac\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I am sure the Minister does tell the truth in this Chamber. She could at least acknowledge what she said on radio this morning. That at least is what I want to hear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Government cannot have it both ways. It cannot claim to be the paragon of constitutionalism, then run roughshod over judgments of the courts, and over the rights of 20,000 people, when there is another way to deal with the matter. If those 20,000 applicants were processed under the old rules, some would get in and some would not. The new rules could then be applied in the future. That at least would have been a reasonable constitutional approach to this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI have quoted the statements made by the Minister in this Chamber 4 years ago, and I took those statements at face value. I have understood that she is a person learned in law. She talks about the conventions of the United Nations, which are the Holy Grail for this Government. United Nations conventions must rule on all occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b839b64d228941cca672ae883186bd6a\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: When it suits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd644dbaa360483bab0230d790f3d137\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: When it suits, as my colleague Georgina te Heuheu says. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00223f38825dac6841adb1792e68555c1121\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f38825dac6841adb1792e68555c1121\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e6517ac52e1e4b74b84352647d7d2574\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c3f095e7f4342518d251cd0534de6d5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ae14c75055124fe39a4e639a9adeeeaa\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022f477825ba797432598d7b711f1a101f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f477825ba797432598d7b711f1a101f7\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 2 is an important clause in the bill before the Committee today, because, taken in context, it gives effect to the retrospective nature of the legislation. For the benefit of those members who have not read it carefully and understood that context\u2014because we are here today under urgency, taking this bill through all its stages\u2014there will be no opportunity for members of the public, for those who made their applications in good faith, or for any other party with a view on this matter, to make a submission. The Government intends not only to go through this Committee stage, but also to go through the third reading. On the conclusion of the third reading, this bill will receive the royal assent\u2014no doubt as early as tomorrow. Clause 2 gives effect to this retrospective legislation being passed under urgency immediately upon the receipt of the royal assent. It is important that we as a Committee understand the significance of this clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ESome important issues flow from that. The first is that from the time the bill is assented to, the Government will effectively have disengaged from a legal process that it made an in-good-faith commitment to initially, but instead decided to abandon in favour of a legislative process under urgency. The prime purpose of this bill\u2014the driver of the so-called immigration policy changes announced by the Minister at the last minute yesterday to avoid scrutiny\u2014is to cover up for the Minister\u2019s misdemeanour in failing to make the policy changes that would have given due and proper notice to those seeking to become resident in New Zealand. A prudent and sensible Minister would have taken those policy changes to Cabinet, so that we would see progressive process of analysis by officials, and recommendations from Ministers to the Cabinet committee and Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EBecause she did not engage in that proper process of analysis in making those recommendations, the Minister finally woke up one morning and found a massive mess on her hands, and her reaction compounded that mess. She decided to promulgate changes that the High Court of this country ultimately found, in part, to be unlawful. Justice Randerson found that, in part, the legislative panic responses made by this Minister were unlawful. On 17 June, only 2 weeks ago, the Minister made a solemn commitment to pursue the matter by way of appeal to the High Court. I say to her that she will have to take a call on clause 2 and tell us how it can be that on 17 June, just 2 weeks ago, she told members of Parliament, members of the public, and representatives of the news media that she strongly refuted the decision made by Justice Randerson. She was convinced that it would be open to successful appeal, and that she and the Government would so appeal. That is what she told us just 2 weeks ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to her today that she needs to take a call and explain. When she told the public of New Zealand that she was going to lodge that appeal, did she know that she was embarking instead, by subterfuge, on this legislative initiative? If so, she is guilty of a gross act of bad faith towards the news media and the public of this country. I find it unbelievable that she could not have known 2 weeks ago that she was going to bring this bill before the House and seek urgency today. I find it difficult to believe, because, first of all, I know how long it takes to draft a bill. Secondly, I know how long it takes United Future to dither away and make up its mind about whether it will support the Government on a bill like this. The Minister needs to take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00229431416679e54a2f83f0d9e42c11655d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229431416679e54a2f83f0d9e42c11655d\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 2 sets out the day on which the bill receives the royal assent. It sets out the day on which this Government finally admits that its immigration policies are an absolute disaster, that it does not know what it is doing, and that what it said on 17 June does not appear to have been correct. The Government said it would go to the Court of Appeal, but somehow, in the meantime, it has changed its mind, and now it will repeal the legislation altogether. Well, we have got legislation at various stages. We have known for years that this Government does not know what it is doing about immigration. New Zealand First has made that point clear. Now we have an admission that all the work that the Government was doing on the job-search visa, and such like, was something that it did not fully comprehend. When the court case was taken, presumably the Government expected to win it, and, of course, the Government failed and lost it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EEven prior to the court case it was clear that when the Minister was undertaking her policy she did not appreciate she had requirements that needed to be fulfilled in the way in which the policy should be carried out, and the court has made it clear that this Government has not carried out its policy properly. It has been a saga of failures on the part of this Government, and now here we are in Parliament, under urgency, being asked to rubber-stamp this Government\u2019s failure. To be perfectly frank, no one is absolutely sure\u2014including the Minister, and that is not unusual\u2014just what the Minister will be doing as far as this legislation is concerned. Are we being asked to implement legislation that will be given effect to by way of stands at trade fairs in New Delhi, Lahore, Beijing, Taiwan, Frankfurt, and such like? The commencement date will give effect to something that no one quite knows anything about, including the Minister, as was clear from Morning Report this morning. We in New Zealand First take the view that this bill should not come into force when it receives the royal assent. In fact, the bill should not be before the House at all in this way. Clearly, it should not come into force until after there has been select committee deliberation, until Government members themselves know what it is all about, and until United Future gets to know what it is all about. It should not come into effect until those two parties at least know what is going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAll we have heard from United Future so far is a speech that was prepared by the Government. United Future has repeated it word for word. The United Future members do not quite understand what the speech says, but they repeated it anyway. United Future members like being in this House. They do not like the possibility of going to a general election and losing the position they have in this House. As good Christians, United Future members believe that they may as well hang in there for another 2 years and take whatever they might be able to get in the meantime, instead of standing up for their Christian values and their policies, and saying the bill should not come into effect on the day it receives the royal assent\u2014which is likely to be tomorrow or the next day\u2014but, rather, after it has been to a select committee and people have made submissions. For example, the bill should not come into effect until we in this House know the outcome of the discussions with \u201Cthe Ministries of Economic Development, Foreign Affairs and Trade, Justice, and Social Development; the Department of Internal Affairs (Ethnic Affairs); Treasury; and the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.\u201D, as set out on page 6 of the commentary on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe bill should not come into effect until the Opposition parties know what those discussions were, and whether they were lengthy or short. That would give us the opportunity to understand what is in the legislation. We do not know what is in there. We have not been told. I am sure that United Future has not been told, but that does not stop it from supporting the Government. We have a constitutional right to ask that this bill should not come into effect until all the agencies are consulted; including, for example, Te Puni K\u014Dkiri\u2014I would like to know what Te Puni K\u014Dkiri has to say about the bill\u2014the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, and the Department of the Prime Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261aead0aa00448c884722d67d8dfffaf\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Te M\u0101ngai P\u0101ho.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f405181458d486db856f101d63991c6\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand First has not taken much interest in those affairs. I will leave that to Rodney Hide and Murray McCully. I am still struggling to get around the name of the department, let alone what it says it does or does not do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill should not come into effect later this week, as is envisaged by this Government. Clearly, it is a breach of all constitutional process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00223f669ba1b6184a4f8e011bfbb97a79dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f669ba1b6184a4f8e011bfbb97a79dd\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I am thankful for an opportunity to point out to members of the Committee\u2014clearly, many members, such as the Greens, have not read the bill and kept up with progress\u2014the specific significance of clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, which states: \u201CThis Act comes into force on the day on which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D As they say, the devil is in the detail. It is certainly not written in that clause, but everyone should be well aware that that clause is in fact the clause that rides roughshod over due process in New Zealand. It rides roughshod over the fact that the bill should be considered by a select committee. New Zealanders from across the country should have the opportunity to make submissions to this Government and to Opposition members, and we should see good law being passed in the proper manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear members read out what the Minister said back in 1999. She said: \u201CI do not appreciate a Government using the urgency provisions of Parliament in order to avoid due process. Due process would require the matter to be referred to a select committee, for members to be properly briefed by officials, and for us to be able to canvass issues as to whether the court would be likely to use the United Nations convention to override the provisions of the statute.\u201D I support that statement from the Minister in the chair, Lianne Dalziel. The difficulty is that I supported the Minister back in 1999 when she said that, but I certainly do not support her today as she puts this bill through under urgency and asks that the commencement date occur when it receives the royal assent, which could be any day now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like that Minister to know that members of Parliament throughout the country\u2014certainly National members of Parliament\u2014are dealing with immigration cases all the time. Certainly, when people walk into my electorate office, and into National Party electorate offices throughout the country, we go through due process. We do not like the idea of this commencement date effectively wiping out 2 years worth of applications\u2014in fact, in some cases, people lodged applications to come to this country and work here 2 years ago. We have opened the door to those people. I certainly have in Whangarei. We have worked with genuine people over a period of 2 years, and that Minister, with this commencement clause, will effectively nullify all the work that has been done. It is a very sad issue, I believe, and the Minister should take that into account. We look at issues\u2014I certainly do in my electorate office\u2014on a case-by-case basis. But that Minister is going to legislate over all cases for no reason, and will reject applications, for 2 years, for no reason at all, except, of course, to avoid her conflict with what the court has stated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe major point I want to make about this particular commencement clause is that it simply provides a vehicle for rejecting a whole lot of applications that have been lodged before this Minister. Whenever she does that, she will retrospectively exclude potentially very good New Zealanders from working and raising their families in our country. I am disappointed by that, because I have worked with people coming to Whangarei on a case-by-case basis, as do other National MPs throughout the country. We have taken their issues in hand, helped them where we could, appealed to the Minister where we could not, then we turn round and find out that, effectively, all that work will be nullified. It does not matter to the Minister whether one person has applied over the 2 years, or whether thousands\u2014which is, in fact, the case\u2014have applied; she is going to make their applications lapse. I wish she would front up to those many, many people throughout this country who will be in tears because of all the hurdles they have jumped in the last 2 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u002277b496cfc66840b09639f334861d6ccc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277b496cfc66840b09639f334861d6ccc\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 2 provides that the bill will come into force on the day on which it receives the royal assent. On its face, that clause looks innocuous enough, but in the context of what it is about to achieve, it is a very serious matter indeed. I hope that the members of the public who might be listening are appreciating very clearly the serious nature of this clause. First of all, as my colleagues have pointed out, we are dealing with this matter under urgency. This bill was introduced just yesterday afternoon. It is proposed that the bill go through all its stages today\u2014it will probably become law by 1 o\u2019clock this afternoon. Once it has received the royal assent, which will be over the next 1 or 2 days, the rights of a whole lot of legitimate migrant applicants will have been ridden roughshod over by this Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EJust 2 years ago, this Minister made some very fine statements\u2014statements that I agree with\u2014and although they have been read out already, I want to read them out again. I want the Minister to explain to members here in the Chamber\u2014and to those people who are listening, and to members of the public who value due process of law, value the rights of citizens, visitors, migrants, and value following due process, and who, hopefully, will be as appalled as we are\u2014that people\u2019s rights are now being ridden roughshod over by this Minister. This is what she said in 1999, which is just like yesterday: \u201CI do not appreciate a Government using the urgency provisions of Parliament in order to avoid due process. Due process would require the matter to be referred to a select committee, for members to be properly briefed by officials, and for us to be able to canvass issues as to whether the court would be likely to use the United Nations convention to override the provisions of the statute.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to take a call and explain to us how she can reconcile the fact that a bill that is to pass into law today\u2014it commences its legitimacy today, almost\u2014with the statements she made only 4 years ago. I ask the Minister to get to her feet and answer that matter. It is all very well to sit in the chair and sneer and laugh, but this is a very serious thing that she does today. Not only are we are dealing with a bill under urgency, in order for it to pass through all stages in a very short space of time, but we are dealing with a bill that has a retrospective impact. The Minister will shut out and ride roughshod over the rights of a number of migrants who have made legitimate applications, just 2 weeks after she cunningly, probably, put people\u2019s minds at rest\u2014and I do think it was a cunning thing that she did. She indicated that she would appeal the decision of the High Court, thereby, I would say, giving applicants a bit of respite, and a reason to think: \u201CWell, we\u2019re still in the game. We still have a chance.\u201D But at that point, as my colleague Murray McCully says, a Minister would already have been drafting legislation for it to be introduced into the House yesterday\u2014or, at least, had to have had the decision made in Cabinet. So that was a very cunning ploy that she used. I agree with Murray McCully when he suggests that this bill is a breach of good faith. I am waiting for the Minister to stand and justify this bill being brought in under urgency, justify its passage into law within a space of 24 hours, and justify why she thinks it proper to do this to legitimate applicants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ea4f32165447d3aa1953e806bdd324\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ea4f32165447d3aa1953e806bdd324\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak on the commencement clause, because issues concerning the reputation of our country and the reputation of this Parliament are at stake. When people want to migrate to this country they are quite entitled to know whether dirty tricks of this sort will be pulled on them. When this Minister of Immigration pulls the sort of trick that she has pulled over the last 2 days\u2014with a commencement clause that rides roughshod over the rights of others\u2014this country\u2019s reputation is damaged and we look like a Mickey Mouse outfit. I accept that it is absolutely the right of the Government of New Zealand to set the immigration policy of this country. But what is not right is for the Minister to do that in such a way that it rides roughshod over the life plans that are made by thousands of people. If we have laws of that sort, people will look to New Zealand and say we are a Mickey Mouse, banana-type State. It will mean that the words of Ministers of the Crown of New Zealand cannot be trusted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI too want to speak to what the Minister said in 1999 about these issues. The Minister can laugh about it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a4bae9416bd48b0912c074c556d95f5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not relevant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0848a88ffb141539efc7b60a8f27d32\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am the judge of whether it is relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa4354f2ced47e29b9d9c25c10d6551\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says it is not relevant. It is relevant, because on 15 June 1999 the Minister, then in Opposition, said things about the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). Well, this is an Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). On that occasion she made great importance of parliamentary process, and it comes directly to the commencement issues, because this bill comes into effect long before what she said was \u201Cdue process\u201D, long before people have had an opportunity to have a say, and long before a select committee has had an opportunity to look at the bill. She also said it was wrong to override the provisions of an existing statute. The Minister cannot just laugh about it. Every member of the House wants the trade of politics to be held with respect. When she says things in this Parliament, then, as Minister, does the exact opposite, she brings the reputation of every single parliamentarian and every single Minister into disrepute\u2014because she is overriding what she said. I say to the Minister in the chair, Lianne Dalziel, that she brings New Zealand\u2019s good name into disrepute, she brings parliamentarians into disrepute, and she brings Ministers\u2019 words into disrepute. I say that is wrong. The Minister cannot just laugh it off. She needs to get to her feet and give the Committee an explanation. Why is it that the words she said in 1999, when she was in Opposition, do not apply now that she is in Government? What has changed? Is it the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D\u2014the Labour standard? What has changed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202daf1a596554b8ab9c081a8d14d1d6e\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: The Government changed!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4fd3e1c03db4f449b5f1c0dd1c15ca8\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cunliffe said the Government has changed. Well, is that not a great standard of integrity from this Government! It says: \u201CWe\u2019ll tell you one spin when we\u2019re on the Opposition benches, and we\u2019ll tell you a completely different line when we\u2019re in Government.\u201D Is that the Labour Party\u2019s policy? Why did Labour not tell the public about that when it went to the electorate in 1999? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cf3abb997f64eb998896d6eb24f4eeb\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: He can\u2019t even turn up to court on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f02dca00176c4271b0e4fead35de6ae9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Barker goes around saying that Labour honours its word. I say: \u201CBedevilled, you honour your word!\u201D Labour is doing exactly the opposite of what it said prior to the last election, and that cannot be laughed off. I challenge Mr Barker to get to his feet and say what is different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b26ea2a0ee6415bb9c313849467dac8\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: At least I can get to court on time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf046a237e4f4cd9bc2d56a9032e4448\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, well! He does not want to answer the question. Why did Labour say in 1999 that these sorts of bills should go to a select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4ad7771e9734144ba3af932e5b1cd8a\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Get your hands out of your pockets. You can\u2019t speak properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022102102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e0a08360eef4838a511acce1381ed98\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: He wants to talk about the fact that I have my hand in my pocket. He wants to talk about every possible irrelevant thing. He does not want to talk about telling the truth. He does not want to talk about New Zealand\u2019s reputation. He does not want to talk about whether we can rely on the word of this Minister. He does not want to talk about the rights of people who come to this country in good faith. He just wants to talk about whether my hand is in my pocket. Well, I have to say to the Minister\u2014and that Minister\u2014that reputation counts, and this Minister and this Government are muddying it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002260a32e9ceb2e4ad09dc778c5cb8b2881\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260a32e9ceb2e4ad09dc778c5cb8b2881\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E This clause is particularly important in the context of the previous speeches made to this Parliament by the Minister who is now in the chair, Lianne Dalziel. But it is even more important in the context of what should underpin immigration policy. Undoubtedly, immigration policy needs to be predictable, transparent, certain, and fair, and on every one of those counts this bill before the Committee today, brought in under urgency, is neither predictable, nor transparent, nor certain, nor fair. I certainly hope that the Minister in the chair will take a call on the words that she gave to this House back on 15 June 1999, particularly when, regarding the process, she said\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d837d964bee949d2bc3d5b205d711c34\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member should be speaking to the commencement date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220402075d876449d0b3715ad752cb32fe\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and this is absolutely relevant to the commencement date, in that this bill was brought in under urgency, and comes into force on the day on which it receives the royal assent\u2014which, unfortunately, is likely to be today because there will be no select committee deliberation, although that is one of the criteria that the Minister in the chair said was absolutely essential to it. After all, the Minister in the chair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d233b496fa664678bc5804c51b5ff5fb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but there is a cellphone going off in this House. That is out of order. There is a Speaker\u2019s ruling about the use of cellphones in the House. They are not permitted. The member will withdraw and apologise for that breach. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c07a80c5a24488adbebb8008b1b6cf\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly withdraw and apologise. I had turned it off but, mysteriously, it came on again\u2014maybe because of the concern I have about this Minister!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThis Minister had 9 years in Opposition complaining about process, and has had 47 months in Government, giving her a reasonable opportunity to organise the Immigration Service, but we have a shambles. There are 20,000 applicants at stake here\u201446,000 people who have had their lives absolutely turned upside down by this Minister, who is bringing in, under urgency, this untimely bill. What an absolutely hopeless Minister she is to bring about this situation after all that time! It reflects her inability to manage an immigration process. It is absolutely a shambles. I hear time and time again from my constituents in Port Waikato about how absolutely difficult and hopeless it is to get an immigration application through in a manner anywhere near timely or consistent, or even to be able to speak to immigration consultants or to communicate with the Immigration Service, because of the absolute backlog and the unwillingness of the staff to answer calls, emails, and letters. That is the shambles that this Minister has brought about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHence this commencement clause\u2014which has been brought in under urgency\u2014is a reflection of this Minister\u2019s inability to handle a very sensitive portfolio that reflects on the lives of not just thousands of people but tens of thousands of people. She has brought about a shambles. She said she does not appreciate a Government using the urgency provisions of Parliament in order to avoid due process. I do hope that the Minister in the chair will reflect on her words, and take a call and tell Parliament why she said those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002262b1d9bae2274542b89cd433a4493d69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262b1d9bae2274542b89cd433a4493d69\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022575ed069331247f0ba08563b02378452\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d272da52ed348eca94d47617c1779b3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229b13e542eff4e0a83fcab3e56da1ecf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I want to make the comment that one or two comments were made when the votes were being taken. I refer members to Speaker\u2019s ruling 56/4, which states that it is highly disorderly to interject or comment when votes are being carried out. The reason is quite simple: it is sometimes difficult for those at the Table to hear. It is also, as I said, highly disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002281f2dea9a13b420596f32c8f7af30540\u0022\u003EPart 1  Principal Act amended\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022093c8b133ea541799dd86b5b2367f693\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022093c8b133ea541799dd86b5b2367f693\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E A number of comments have been made in this debate in respect of a position that was adopted in 1999 in respect of another Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). I remind the Committee that the legislation itself had already been passed by the House, and, in fact, the particular provisions in the No. 2 bill had been supported by the Labour Opposition at that earlier stage. We had supported the writing in of the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, and we had supported all the changes that were made in respect of asylum seekers. The No. 2 bill to which members have referred brought into effect those provisions relating to asylum seekers\u2014specifically, those relating to mass arrivals\u2014because there was, allegedly, a boat on the way. That boat still has not arrived today\u2014and that was in 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe only briefing, the only meeting that I asked for in this House, was a brief calling together in the lunch break, while the bill was going through the House, so that officials could provide a briefing to Opposition members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI provided a briefing to Opposition members yesterday, through the offices of the Associate Minister of Immigration, and all the Opposition parties were invited to participate in it. I think it was perfectly reasonably to offer members an advance opportunity to ask questions about the content of legislation that was to be introduced under urgency. So there is absolutely no contradiction in the position I have adopted in this Chamber, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis part of the bill deals with the Government residence policy. Assertions have been made in this House that I must have arranged for the particular provisions in clause 3 to go through Cabinet and be drafted in a bill before I put out my statement saying that we intended to appeal the decision relating to the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment case. I can tell this Committee categorically that the date that I asked officials to draft a Cabinet paper seeking permission for this clause to go into the legislation and be drafted was 23 June. Prior to that, it had not been proposed that clause 3 be included in this bill. It was only 2 weeks ago that I asked officials to do this work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI make the point that clause 3 is not retrospective. Clause 3 clarifies the situation in respect of temporary entry to New Zealand, which is not governed by Government residence policy. If members of the National Party want to have temporary entry policy under the same rules as Government residence policy, then God help New Zealand! That would be an absolute disaster. We make decisions every day of the week as to whether people will comply with the provisions of temporary entry policy to this country. Every day of the week we get applications from people from different countries in the world, and we have to try to decide whether they will comply with the provisions of their visa if we grant them that visa. National Party members had to do exactly the same thing when they were in Government. It is a bit rich for Opposition members now to come to this House and say that they accept that a job-search visa is part of Government residence policy. It was not intended to be part of Government residence policy when the National Party Cabinet considered the Cabinet paper back in 1999, and it certainly was not in my mind when I confirmed the introduction of that policy early in 2000, when I became the Minister. That is the bottom line in respect of clause 3. It clarifies very specifically that temporary entry visas and permits, and limited-purpose visas and permits are not, in any circumstances, part of Government residence policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second element of this part is the global prioritisation\u2014something we have already introduced. It enables us to prioritise the applications of particular individuals who already have skilled-job offers. That will be good for business, good for the migrant, and very good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022376723e3e40241e8a935eb21991d3a92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022376723e3e40241e8a935eb21991d3a92\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Immigration, who has just taken a call, needs to do some listening. If she does not do some listening, she will never get the point that members on this side have been expressing concerns about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Minister makes a point of Part 1, and in particular clause 3, not being retrospective in its impact. Well, it does not need to be retrospective in its impact, because the rest of the bill has the retrospective impact in it. The Minister is being entirely cute with the Committee, and, frankly, is being less than forthright with the Committee, if she thinks she can get away with an explanation like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EPart 1 changes the judgment that was brought down by the High Court. I notice that the Minister avoided any reference to that. Part 1 does what the Minister now knows the Court of Appeal was not going to do, which was to agree with her interpretation of the Act. The Minister can wax eloquent as much as she likes about whether this was the intention of the Government in passing that bill, or whether it was the intention of Parliament in passing the legislation in the first place; she may well be right, but that is not the point. The point is that earlier this year the High Court of New Zealand brought down a judgment, dated 16 May, in which it found that some actions taken by the Minister were unlawful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EAt that point\u201416 May\u2014the Minister had several choices open to her. One of those choices was to say she did not think that is what Parliament intended, and she did not think that was what the previous Government intended in passing that bill, so she would go and see her very fine colleague on the other side, the Opposition spokesperson on immigration, and ask him whether he would see reason and support the Government rectifying something that Parliament had not intended to do. But the Minister did not do that. The Minister was much more concerned about the fact that the original changes that she had made, which were the subject of High Court proceedings, were changes made as a result of her losing some political arguments. The Minister, rightly or wrongly in terms of the merit of the argument, had been on the losing end of some political debate. The changes that she promoted were not changes promoted in good faith, after careful and serious analysis by officials; they were changes that were a panic reaction in the Cabinet room.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ESo, on 16 and 17 May, after she had the High Court decision from Justice Randerson, she did not think: \u201COh, that\u2019s not what Parliament intended. I\u2019ll have a talk to the Opposition parties and see whether we can, without too much delay, put matters right.\u201D What she said was: \u201COh no, this was a politically driven decision made in a panic. I can\u2019t possibly go and talk to the Opposition parties about what Parliament intended, and whether we should let the judgment of Justice Randerson stand.\u201D She decided to try her usual trick of bluster and pomposity. As a consequence, now, further down the track, the Minister finds herself embarrassed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EShe put out a press statement. I must say her explanation to the Committee a few minutes ago of the circumstances of that were less than fulsome, and I will have some further questions about that before the day is out. She says that she released a press statement on 17 June saying, in good faith, that she would appeal Justice Randerson\u2019s decision. We are supposed to believe that she did not have in mind on 17 June, when she released that press statement, some provisions in this bill\u2014a bill that she prepared and got ready for introduction in the House today, 2 weeks later. I tell the Minister that she has some more explaining to do if she expects the Committee to believe that. I want to see those Cabinet papers. I want her to table the Cabinet papers produced before and after she came to think of introducing clause 3 as part of Part 1 of this bill. I want to see the evidence of the Cabinet papers and the officials\u2019 advice to her. I tell the Committee that we should oppose this provision because of that background.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00228e341cc877fd4a7ba9fdba83360796be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e341cc877fd4a7ba9fdba83360796be\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 is a very serious part of this legislation, and in my view is a very serious departure from the usual way in which the New Zealand Government administers its affairs. In my view Part 1 leaves us wide open to corruption at Government levels, especially in our overseas offices, where we know that, from time to time, there is corruption. New Zealand First has had evidence brought before it that if one wants a visa to come to New Zealand, the best person to go and see in New Delhi is the bloke under the tree outside the front gate of the New Delhi High Commission. He will jack a visa up on the payment of cash. Surprisingly enough, somehow or other the visa becomes available despite the fact that there is never any contact with the high commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESection 13BA, inserted by clause 4, states: \u201C(1) The order and manner of processing any application \u2026 (2) The chief executive may, from time to time, give general instructions to visa officers \u2026 (3) In giving any such general instructions, \u2026 (4) Unless otherwise expressed by the chief executive, \u2026\u201D etc. So there are various ways in which, administratively, applications can be processed, according to different priorities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThere has always been a principle that applications are processed on a prioritised basis\u2014first come, first served. If an application has a defect, then, clearly, it can drop to the bottom of the pile, but one does not fiddle with an application\u2019s place in the queue. To do so is the very beginning of corruption. It leaves the prospect of corruption wide open, especially given that the Immigration Service is so dependent upon people in overseas countries where corruption is just a way of life. It is not unusual; it is the norm. New Zealand First is most concerned that, as a result of the opportunities made available in this legislation, there will be even more of the examples that have been put to this Government of corruption involving immigration in various places around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAnd we are being asked to rush it through Parliament. We would never agree to rush any sort of legislation through Parliament without select committee consideration, but in this case we are being asked to support a Minister\u2019s rushing legislation through Parliament when that Minister has been proven wrong in the High Court on her interpretation and administration of legislation. That is just not possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI have looked at the Immigration Act\u2014section by section, in fact. In 1984 I was chairman of a select committee that reviewed the old Act and came out with new immigration legislation, which was subsequently changed, altered, and became law in 1987. Since I became an MP again I have read every section in the Immigration Act, and in terms of, I think, sections 13A and 13B, I have two massive folders. I have been through them all and tried to ask questions on them, but every time one asks a question, one receives the statement: \u201COh no, we haven\u2019t really given effect to that.\u201D\u2014especially on the health side of things. So we could not possibly accept another amendment, to insert something else in section 13B, without it going before a select committee to consider whether it will work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe new section 13B(1A) inserted by clause 3 states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, any policy \u2026 is not Government residence policy, regardless \u2026\u201D. The Government is saying that anything it does in these areas cannot be regarded as being Government residence policy, and I ask whether it flows on that, therefore, no certificates are required under sections 13A and 13B, to try to get around anyone having a look at this issue later on and deciding that, as a certificate has not been issued, the policy has not been complied with. The Government is saying that it is policy, but it is not policy, because the Government says it is not policy. Well, is it policy, or is it not? This legislation is saying that it is not policy even though it is policy. How can we possibly accept legislation of this kind? Just to avoid doubt, carte blanche is being given to the Minister, the executive, and the various staff all around the world, and there is no proper consideration of how it will be administered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis is a real recipe for disaster in the administration of our immigration system, which is in some disrepair at the moment\u2014which is why this bill is before Parliament. If everything were fine and dandy we would not be racing this bill through the House. We know that the Minister is in real trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00222f7c03806ee749f9a3e070c02ad5d2e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f7c03806ee749f9a3e070c02ad5d2e6\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Focusing on Part 1, I think the Minister in whose name this bill stands made a very revealing statement before departing from the Chamber. She said that her first instruction to officials for the drafting of this bill was on 23 June. That is barely 6 days ago. If we take out the weekend we are talking about 4 working-days. So this bill has come back into Parliament under urgency. Obviously on Monday the Cabinet looked at it, and decided to ram it through under urgency, to deny it the scrutiny of a select committee, and to have no consultation whatsoever with the industry\u2014where the expertise lies. In fact, we heard on Morning Report this morning that upwards of 20,000 people who have made applications could be affected by this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b2797e0615448f3b36a54058d651ee1\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty thousand applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b870ca7735944fc0a7820219b483cbde\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty thousand applications. That is possibly 60,000 or 72,000 people. That involves 20,000 applications, but then the industry made the point that the Government does not really know. It was reckoned that that figure was the industry\u2019s guesstimate, and the industry\u2019s guess has become the Government\u2019s research in this matter. That is very worrying indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have not had a satisfactory explanation from the Ministers in the chair or from any Government speaker of the reason for urgency. We have not heard that at all. We do know that Justice Randerson\u2019s decision went against the Minister. The Government was taken to court, and it lost. The Government was wrong, and the court told it so. The Government then decided that it would appeal, and then thought: \u201COh, no, there is a short cut to that. We\u2019ll change the law. We\u2019ll use the brute force of the State\u2014change the law, deny people their rights, trample over their rights.\u201D In fact, it smacks a bit of the foreshore and seabed situation, when we think about it, does it not? The Government will end up in a similar sort of pickle, because it panicked in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ESuch knee-jerk reactions on the part of the Government never work. We saw it with the booze tax that it slapped on us under urgency. I think it was in the last urgency period we had. Jim Anderton said that there was a crisis, and that if the Government did not move straight away, there would be all sorts of problems\u2014and now everyone is laughing. That legislation is a nonsense, and is actually counter-productive. I predict that this bill will also be counter-productive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E I listened to the Minister\u2019s explanation of clause 3, and I support that explanation. I think there is some rationale in the argument she put forward with regard to temporary entry. But as Dail Jones expressed in his speech, I get very nervous when I see legislation that leads off with the expression \u201Cto avoid doubt\u201D. Whenever we see \u201Cto avoid doubt\u201D we know we are making muddied waters worse-confounded. It seems to be inevitable. When we have to say in legislation \u201Cto avoid doubt\u201D, trouble is on its way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EBut then, turning to clause 4, which is the other part of this Part 1, I become really, really worried. In her explanation the Minister used only about two sentences and explained this provision as part of a global prioritisation. The words just sort of flowed over, and that was all she addressed. But when we actually read the words in the clause\u2014and this is why I would have liked the bill to go to a select committee and be scrutinised\u2014the point has been made that the provision is giving awesome discretionary powers to bureaucrats, and is raising the fear of rorts and corruption. We have had cases, and claims and allegations\u2014substantiated allegations\u2014of rorts and corruption in the processing of visas, and associated with immigration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe see some very worrying text in that clause. Subsection (1) of section 13BA inserted by clause 4 states: \u201CThe order and manner of processing any application for a visa or permit is a matter for the discretion of a visa officer or immigration officer.\u201D Subsection (2) states: \u201CThe chief executive may \u2026 give general instructions \u2026 as to the order and manner of processing any application for a visa or permit.\u201D, but the order is solely at the discretion of the immigration officer on the ground. So the various regions around the country, or around the world, where visas might be processed, could have amazing inconsistencies and irregularities associated with them. Then in subsection (3) we see that \u201CIn giving any such general instructions, the chief executive may have regard to such matters as the chief executive thinks fit.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022be7e03d3435b49698c8f12eb57589691\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be7e03d3435b49698c8f12eb57589691\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0b924a1b739438785e12ea10a55dfdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0b924a1b739438785e12ea10a55dfdf\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call on clause 3, and, if I have time, possibly to make some comments on clause 4 as well, although with regard to that clause I support the sentiments expressed by the Hon Ken Shirley. Coming back to clause 3, however, I note that this clause, as we now know from previous contributions by members, legislates to ensure that temporary or limited visas, such as job-search visas, cannot be classed as residence visas. That has the effect of over-riding the court case, because if job-search visas are not residence visas, then section 13 of the Immigration Act does not apply to those 40,000 or so, or is it 60,00 or so\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec45ca345bbd4ccfbe2de5ae592a468d\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Forty-six thousand people; 20,000 applications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f25a08e13964afb9e78f4b9aca405b5\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: \u201420,000 applications, and 46,000 people. Then section 13 of the Immigration Act does not apply to those people. When the Minister took a call before she left the chair, she explained the reason for clause 3. She said that it clarifies this very situation. In part, the National Opposition agrees that if there is an anomaly or a situation that possibly does not fit into Government residence policy, there are ways of dealing with that. There are legitimate ways of dealing with that sort of issue, but this legislation is not one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThousands of people started to wend their way through due process within our justice system, to have what they saw as their legitimate rights clarified, and Justice Randerson in the High Court gave a ruling that actually agreed with them, in terms of the way the Government was behaving. Then, as I said earlier, we saw that they were fortified only temporarily, when the Minister said that that was not a decision that was acceptable to this Government, and that the Government would appeal it; but then within a very short space of time the Government changed its mind, to take these draconian steps that we are debating today. And they are draconian. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E I felt like commenting when the Minister was on her feet: \u201CTell that to the 46,000 people out there who, for 2 years, have been pursuing their applications.\u201D They went into the court process\u2014at great cost, I might add\u2014thinking it was fair enough, that there were ways of dealing with the matter, and that they would follow those processes, only to find that in the end the sinister hand of the Government came in, the axe came down, and no matter what they were doing, in any event they were ruled out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI wonder how this enhances the reputation of New Zealand. We are encouraging people to come here. I think members from all sides of the Chamber will agree that we need more people here. We need an immigration policy, as my colleague said before, that is transparent, fair\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d94f9df4be44f38ae21f5a886d018bd\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Predictable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf030a797d8643559c13410c4fd44c40\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014predictable, and consistent. We can certainly agree with that. But when we get the kind of shambolic management of this very important portfolio that the Minister has been guilty of, what sort of reputation are we developing? It is a reputation that says we will ride roughshod over the legitimate rights of 46,000 people. As Bill Milnes of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment said, \u201CThe Minister is playing football with people\u2019s lives.\u201D Mind you, I do not know whether the Minister can play football, but that was his view. In other words, she does not care really. She does not care that these people in good faith have made application for visas to New Zealand in the way they saw fit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u00226a288081c7f949fea3956dfa65e22d1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a288081c7f949fea3956dfa65e22d1b\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00225f1dce0eac934c87bb1ccee6947f98ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f1dce0eac934c87bb1ccee6947f98ca\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I would plead with you, Mr Chairman, that this part is very significant, and I do not think the Labour Government should rush through this part without giving due consideration to the very serious issues that Opposition members are raising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to touch on clause 3, but I think clause 4 needs a lot more substantial debate yet. We have heard from the Minister, correctly, that on 17 June she issued a press statement challenging the High Court decision, insisting that the judge got it wrong. On 23 June she instructed her officials to draft this legislation to avoid any doubt, and she claimed that she was not even sure that it would be included in this legislation. She is trying to argue on technical grounds that it will not be retrospective. It does not have to be in clause 3, because when we start to examine clause 4, every New Zealander should be very, very concerned about this. Even though we might think it will affect only non - New Zealanders\u2014overseas potential migrants\u2014it is giving us a taste of the way people could be treated by Labour, supported by United Future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet us look at clause 4. It states that the chief executive of the Immigration Service \u201Cmay give general instructions as to order and manner of processing applications for visas and permits\u201D. Anyone looking at it might say that that sounds fair enough\u2014the chief executive of the Immigration Service should be able to give general instructions. But let us look further. We find: \u201C(3) In giving any such general instructions, the chief executive may have regard to such matters as the chief executive thinks fit.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhat does that mean? How are we going to examine what sorts of criteria the chief executive might have to take into consideration? This allows anything a chief executive might think fit. It carries on to say that unless otherwise expressed by the chief executive, any such instructions would not have to pay regard to the fact that a general instruction may be different from those existing at the time. So it could be contrary to the general instructions given at the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut it gets worse and worse. If potential applicants want to challenge whether their applications have been processed in a certain way, the legislation spells out very clearly that there is no ground for questioning whether an application is processed in an order and manner consistent with any general instruction given by the chief executive. Subsection (7)(a) in clause 4 states that \u201Cno appeal lies against the decision of the officer concerned, whether to an Authority, the Tribunal, the Minister, any court, or otherwise;\u201D. Subsection (7)(b) provides that no review proceedings may be brought in any court, in terms of questioning any general instructions relating to the order and manner of processing. I can just imagine that from now on every application for a visa or permit will just be turned down when all the officials have to say is that it is not consistent with the \u201Corder and manner\u201D. From now on, when my hard-working colleague Phil Heatley gets all these immigration application cases and wants to question the decisions, the officials and the Minister will tell him they might want to help him out, but section 13BA(7)(b)(iv) in the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), rushed through under urgency, states that no explanation needs to be given of any decision by the Minister or visa officer to process or not to process. They will say \u201Ctough luck\u201D to Mr Heatley. Nobody, neither the Government nor the officials, needs to give any explanation for refusing to process a visa or permit, or decline a visa or permit. Nobody would ever know the rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u00220ed5b9422b4840ba88774a747381e418\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ed5b9422b4840ba88774a747381e418\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022751677be737342e4b86bfeba6a2590ae\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put. As many as are of that opinion will say \u201CAye\u201D; to the contrary \u201CNo\u201D. The Ayes have it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe206220406f4695af42a38a15c248a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe206220406f4695af42a38a15c248a9\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This matter is at the core of New Zealand First\u2019s policies relating to immigration. We have had only one call on this clause, and I was going to bring in new material. You have cut the debate short. You indicated at the beginning that it was a wide-ranging debate, and we have had five calls on this matter, with only one New Zealand First call. I respectfully ask that we get a second call at least.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022178e7a6ee0354fd7b332c49a9e3742a0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to Standing Order 139, \u201CAcceptance of closure motion\u201D, and Speaker\u2019s ruling 54/2. I am the sole judge of the debate. Nothing new was coming forward. I have already put the question and the vote has been taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002265d372c89260465cb9720cece68d9831\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002232e3532d138a40d5a1f5492674b5d0d6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a00fbbb09bb41d4bd89825066956af7\u0022\u003EPart 2  Validation of processing, and lapsing, of applications\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u002255e519a0547e478192027d090e217772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255e519a0547e478192027d090e217772\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I raise a point of order at the outset in relation to your decision on the matter of closure\u2014not the closure you have just taken, but the closure on the part that is now before the Committee. I do so because I want to avoid an untimely mess of the sort that will, I assure you, ensue if we have the exercise of the Chair\u2019s judgment in the same way as was the case in relation to the part that has just been the subject of a vote. I am fully aware of the provisions of Standing Order 138, to which you referred the Committee in a brief way. I refer to Standing Order 138(3), in particular, which states: \u201CThe Speaker may accept a closure motion if, in the Speaker\u2019s opinion, it is reasonable to do so.\u201D I will not dispute the fact that the judgment is one for discretion on your part, but I think it is open to members to seek to persuade you as to a course that is reasonable in the circumstances. I raise that at the outset in relation to Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EBoth Part 1 and Part 2 are important provisions in this legislation. In addition to the fact that this is a bill that deals with applications that have been made in good faith, some of which are being rendered null and void as a consequence of this amending legislation, and in addition to the fact that this matter is being dealt with under urgency, there is also the consideration that the bill has the effect of overriding a High Court decision that is currently the subject of an appeal to the Court of Appeal. In addition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e256717420ec49ec8ed2e4405f23a33e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984433a0051b45d1bea67c73f5edab1f\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I will get the Speaker back if you want me to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e455e3d3559b4d80b6b9e0107febfe28\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am just referring the member to the fact that a point of order is to be terse and to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b86167612c7e4162b69290bcfe674ed5\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I am making detailed submissions to you because I do not want to see you make the same mistake you did in the first part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251bd5234a8094014a506690b519d505c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am listening to the member and I am mindful of what he is saying, but I would like him to come to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208bad756e07e4112a290eab8140678d9\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I would like you to turn your mind to this. In relation to a bill that is going through the House under urgency, which changes a High Court decision that is currently the subject of an appeal, and which will wipe out the applications of over 10,000 applicants, to use the Minister\u2019s own figures, I suggest to you that it is very far from reasonable for the presiding officer to decide that one speech each from New Zealand First and ACT\u2014particularly as Mr Jones has said New Zealand First has a special interest in this matter\u2014and three speeches from the National Party, is adequate. That is very far from reasonable. Unless we can get some indication from you that Part 2 will be dealt with in a way that the Committee can be persuaded meets the reasonableness test of Standing Order 138(3), we will have to go to a higher authority to get some direction on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022f18e4b6f3f22452c9ab7aa808b3d36c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f18e4b6f3f22452c9ab7aa808b3d36c5\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I am concerned in regard to any ruling on this type of bill, where there is a proposal that a court\u2019s decision be overturned\u2014in this case, a High Court decision only\u2014that the standard accepted in this type of case might be the standard that is accepted, say, in a case in which the House might be faced with a Court of Appeal decision that it wishes to overturn. I would not like it to be accepted in any way that New Zealand First would accept that type of situation, because we do not want this Parliament to be able to say at some later stage in Committee that when we overturned that High Court decision we had five speeches only, and New Zealand First got only one call, and now that we are overturning a Court of Appeal decision the same rules apply. When we are overturning a court decision I would expect that\u2014in or out of urgency\u2014we should get more calls than would normally be the case, because we are overturning a very considered decision to which the Government has been part, and on which the Government has made detailed and lengthy submissions, being a party to that court case, and perhaps in any other case that might be before the Court of Appeal. You have made your decision on the first part, but I would respectfully ask that more time be given on Part 2 to avoid precedents being set for future cases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd89bd1a05e0453796b3418b8e78bb44\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any help, Mr Shirley. I accept and I acknowledge the contributions that have been made, both by the Hon Murray McCully and by the honourable member Dail Jones, and I will certainly take those matters into consideration on the second part, because the second part deals with the validation and processing of applications. I also refer members to Speakers\u2019 rulings 54/2 and 63/2, which detail that I am the sole judge of relevancy. I adjudged that speeches were becoming very similar. The point was made that the debate was wide-ranging only on the title debate. I refer members to that. I acknowledge that I have listened to their representations and I will certainly take note of them during the debate on Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e39c1a1e6e124b48acb3b9c18b7733dc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e39c1a1e6e124b48acb3b9c18b7733dc\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would have preferred to raise this matter in speaking to the previous point of order, because it would have related directly to that, but you denied me that right. Let me be quite clear at the outset. I am not relitigating your decision. You are the sole judge, although I note that Speaker\u2019s ruling 54/2 states: \u201CI can only express the hope that it will not be applied too harshly.\u201D Those were the words of Mr Speaker Statham in 1931, which have stood the test of time. My point is this, which I wanted to add: the Business Committee had a situation in which the proposal was that we could perhaps consider a question time with a guaranteed fixed time for finishing\u2014a 6 o\u2019clock Friday sort of an arrangement. The ACT party did not support that, because we recognise that these matters need to be debated and that the Government, when the House goes into urgency, should not be able to get off the hook and run to an agreed time where the presiding officer in the Chair gives a token hour here and a token hour there, then closes it down. These are very serious matters, for the reasons that have been very eloquently outlined by Mr Jones and the National Party, and I can only say in regard to the denial of question time that these matters are important, they are overriding court decisions, and I urge you, in considering Part 2, to not, in the words of Mr Statham, apply it too harshly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236584ba7b92b47aaab88bc4351e82015\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you Mr Shirley. As I said to both the Hon Murray McCully and the honourable member Dail Jones, it will certainly be taken into consideration. I thank members for their contributions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022dae0333c4197495eae0e0149335f4e2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dae0333c4197495eae0e0149335f4e2c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to express a view on Part 2 of this bill, and I know that Dail Jones certainly wants to, too. I hope he is able to give us at least a titbit of what he was going to present in terms of new information from the previous one, and that he will be allowed the flexibility to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to focus on clause 6, \u201CLapsing of certain applications made before 20 November 2002\u201D, because that particular clause speaks directly to those people who are directly affected by the rash move of this Labour Government to introduce, and pass, in urgency this bill that is riding roughshod over people\u2019s rights; and, certainly, it rides roughshod over us parliamentarians in that it denies us the ability to have our say. Clause 6 is one of the key clauses in this bill that affects those people who have been sidelined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe understand from the Government that there are 20,000 general skills category applications awaiting decisions. I want to know why we have to pass legislation that forces the lapsing of those applications made before 20 November 2002, just because the Minister Lianne Dalziel and her department have been dragging the chain in allowing those applications to go through or to have some sort of scrutiny\u2014to a greater or lesser degree. I know that many hard-working members will be well aware that applications made under those categories have often been submitted 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 18 months ago, or 2 years ago, that it takes an awfully long time for them to go through the process, and that it is very rarely the fault of the applicant or the MP supporting them in that, or even the fault of the consultant in those cases, that it has taken so long. So why are they the ones who are penalised through this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI will read clause 6(1): \u201CAll applications for residence visas or residence permits made before 20 November 2002 under the general skills category\u201D\u2014and we understand there are 20,000 of those\u2014\u201Cof Government residence policy that have not been decided as at the commencement of this Act\u201D\u2014and that could happen any day now\u2014\u201Care treated as lapsed, except where, as at the beginning of 1 July 2003\u201D, and then it lists exceptions to that first rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI want to know why they are treated as lapsed, when, certainly, the person to whom the application relates has been working hell for leather to provide all the information required to prove that he or she is a genuine case. Such people often work side by side with their member of Parliament, they will have got the paperwork from overseas, and internally within New Zealand, they will have seen employers, met all the requirements, and jumped through every hoop and over every hurdle, and I want to know why those people, through blood, sweat, and tears, with all the help they have employed\u2014paid or otherwise\u2014are treated as lapsed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI can tell members now that those 20,000 people do not consider their work to have lapsed. Not a day has gone by when they have not either worried or actively involved themselves in the application process, and they certainly do not consider themselves lapsed. That is why we have pointed out to Minister Dalziel time and time again that she should not be riding roughshod over due process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Government tells us that there are actually 14,669 applications lodged prior to 20 November 2002. The Minister might have a number of 14,669, but National members of Parliament know some of those people as individuals, and they do not like being just one number among 15,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022d55a188881224d1d9e9bc88593e4b91e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d55a188881224d1d9e9bc88593e4b91e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am looking at clause 5, and I will try to concentrate on that in this call. I will look to make a speech on clause 6 later. We have a situation here where the heading to clause 5 is \u201CPast order and manner of processing applications deemed valid\u201D. I have gone to the clause to try to understand what it means\u2014bearing in mind that it has not been to a select committee, where members would get a considerable amount of time to look at a bill; instead, here we are, with barely 5 minutes to come to grips with it and to ask questions on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESubclause 5(1) states: \u201CAny\u2014(a) failure by a visa officer or an immigration officer or the Minister to process an application for a visa or permit \u2026; or (b) decision by a visa officer or an immigration officer \u2026 to process or not to process an application \u2026 occurring or made before the commencement of this Act is deemed to have been validly done\u201D. So the Government is saying that any mistakes that we make\u2014and which we will continue to make\u2014before this legislation comes into force, which could be tomorrow, 3 July, are valid. It does not matter what the mistake is, and it does not matter what has been done, because the decision is still valid\u2014even if we do not know a mistake was made. We may not have the faintest idea of what we are doing in our department, but regardless of the fact that we do not know what the decision is, even if it is the wrong decision it is deemed to be the right decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Government is saying that all wrong decisions are right decisions. All the applications that have been moved along by a visa officer for people who may be criminals from overseas, or who may be involved in some type of fraud, scam, or the like, have been validly processed. At the same time, all the applications that should have gone ahead and been properly considered, but that have been rejected, have also been validly processed, even though the rejection of those applications did not comply with any Government policy. What a load of nonsense that is! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESubclause 5(2) states that \u201CNo appeal lies against any decision to process or not to process an application\u201D, whether or not the appeal is made by an authority, or even by the Minister. So a visa officer in New Delhi could continue to process the application of a known terrorist from, say, Kashmir or Afghanistan, and that process and suchlike could be accepted\u2014whatever \u201Cprocess\u201D actually means, and I will look at clause 5(4) later. This bill validates all sorts of processes, no matter how ineffectual, wrong, or contrary to policy they may be. The Minister, the authority, the tribunal, or a court cannot object to what an official has done. What preposterous legislation this is! Someone has dreamt it up in a hurry, without any great concern. I accept the Minister\u2019s word, but in the four working days or so when this bill was being assessed, which was somewhere between 23 June and when this bill was introduced yesterday afternoon\u2014we have not even had the chance to look at it for 24 hours\u2014legislation has been rushed in that will allow an official to let a terrorist from Afghanistan, or possibly Iraq, into the country. For all that we know, Osama bin Laden could be approved under this legislation, and the Minister could not object to the way in which his application had been processed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d02f3e07a4d54427a9d34af1b8e1d261\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: He might already be here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cdc1152d4ac4333bc2da49333fc7f30\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014goodness only knows. This Government is verifying that kind of mistake in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne tries to work out the meaning of \u201Cto process\u201D\u2014or not to process. It is very Hamlet-esque; it is very Shakespearean.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fc277f9e7b4571965ac9352a4f802e\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: That is the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ee4741ddcb49bf9161d7305fb36251\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It is the question, and I am asking it. What does it mean to process an application or not to process it? Clause 5(4)(a) confuses the issue even more. It states: \u201Ca reference to a failure to process an application includes a reference to a failure to continue to process an application\u201D. Then clause 5(4)(c) goes on to state: \u201Ca reference to a decision not to process an application includes a reference to a decision not to continue to process an application.\u201D What is meant by processing an application? Does that include completing the application? I ask that question. How far does the term \u201Cprocess\u201D go? It could mean an application is stamped, done, and delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a303fb21fbe04e01953fc86a61d62cd4\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s absolute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b600fcd4adfe4b36b46c04a9463c8fb1\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It is absolute. That could mean the process is completed and Osama bin Laden is welcome to New Zealand, because the New Zealand Labour Party and United Future would welcome him in terms of clause 5 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022df191eaaf737453d86e19da6ea355ab3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df191eaaf737453d86e19da6ea355ab3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Committee for the opportunity to respond to the member who has just resumed his seat. I should make the point, because he clearly did not hear what I said earlier on, that clause 3 was added to the bill as a result of the decision that was taken on 23 June. This bill was already in the process of being finalised prior to that date. So the lapsing provisions were already being addressed at that point. I asked the officials to again look at including clause 3 in the legislation, to cover the lapsing provisions and the global prioritisation. So I want to clarify for the member that that was not something that was written. Those particular provisions were not written at that late stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI thought I would share with the Committee the newsroom agency story that has come in over the wires in respect of the response to this particular part. I will just quote from the document itself. It states: \u201CAn immigration consultant, Ted Legget, says the Government\u2019s move to actively recruit skilled migrants will ensure immigrants can put their skills to use as soon as they arrive in the country. He says immigrants who cannot settle into a suitable job are not happy and the changes will address this. Mr Legget says it is unfortunate for those who have already lodged applications for non-relevant job offers and may now be rejected, but there was no alternative.\u201D That is an immigration consultant who has made that particular point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abe95a20b206401db197c86274dfc4dc\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a good one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f50f803a90dd4756910d0e163e431415\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I find it very interesting to hear Pansy Wong interjecting, particularly given associations with certain immigration consultants who may be of interest to that member. I will be in a position to identify the main players in the money-go-round that that member is fully aware of very, very soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe point that I have made about the difference between good and not-so-good immigration consultants is simply this: the good immigration consultants welcome the Government\u2019s changes in this bill. The reason that they welcome these changes is that they already operate on a recruitment model. They already know about jobs that people can be brought into New Zealand to do. They care about the settlement outcomes for the people whom they bring here. I went to one immigration consultancy company\u2019s launch of its Hunters Club\u2014a club actually set aside for new migrants to New Zealand who are the company\u2019s clients in respect of immigration applications. The interesting thing is that that is not something that the consultancy firm has to do. It does not have to do that, but it cares about the outcomes. That is the immigration consultancy that welcomes this bill. It is speaking to the media today, and it is saying that the Government is on the right track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason that the firm accepts we are on the right track is that it wants what the Government wants. I thought I heard Dail Jones interject to say that that is what New Zealand First wants. That firm wants migrants to hit the ground running, and to use their skills and their talent when they get here. Nobody in this Committee could justify for one minute having skilled and professional migrants coming to this country and taking up jobs as cleaners, cooks, and taxi-drivers. New Zealanders have had a guts full of that sort of treatment. New Zealanders are fair and decent-minded people, who ask why we waste the talent and skills of the people whom we bring here. This policy will make sure that we do not continue to bring to New Zealand people who will not make it here and who have little to offer New Zealand\u2014and, to be blunt, New Zealand has little to offer them. This turn-round in policy is good for migrants and good for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00229cf65ff03f084d448eb9c92e6fff49c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cf65ff03f084d448eb9c92e6fff49c4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Can I now assume, in view of the wide-ranging speech made by the Minister, that this is now a wide-ranging debate? We welcome the Minister\u2019s speech, and we look forward to responding to it in detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022c75a5f4494ac407387b3d1b0c92fa1e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c75a5f4494ac407387b3d1b0c92fa1e9\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E A very serious accusation was made during the Minister\u2019s speech. If she ever suggests that I may have something to do with scams involving immigration consultants I invite her to make that accusation outside the House, and I will see her all the way to the court. She would not be able to legislate away the fruits of my victory. That is totally irresponsible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f29277885528401da226412d5f8a48cd\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You just wait!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e994765aa4fb4fee83d5458c3fb97cc0\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I find that offensive. She is smiling away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255ca210d86264d8e8d520e64b4f35f0c\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. In response to what Pansy Wong said, the comment the Minister has made, \u201CYou just wait!\u201D, is unparliamentary and threatening. It is out of character in this Committee. I ask that the Minister apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e598703d5b6d4494acde219839918160\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e694ac83b99d4c62b4b12e323abeb25e\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220132bb5817384a95a1caf6a7920854ac\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: That is why this Minister will never get the immigration portfolio into shape. A Minister should be fair, objective, and accept valid criticism as being nothing personal. I find it very offensive to suggest anything about my conduct that relates to any immigration consultant. I would hastily point out that the Minister used to trumpet\u2014and continues to do so\u2014the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment as one that the Government was happy to work in partnership with. It is now obvious that unless people totally toe the line and agree with the Minister, then she will somehow threaten them with regard to whatever action she may have in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EPart 2 is worth taking a close look at. I want to go to clause 6, where applications for residence visas or residence permits made before 20 November 2002 under the general skills category of the Government residence policy that have not been decided are treated as lapsed. One might argue that there are some exceptions, and some of them may not be lapsed. The specific ones are listed under subclause (1)(a), and the first is where \u201Cthe principal applicant\u2014(i) had claimed points for an offer of employment classed as \u2018relevant\u2019 under the Government residence policy applying to that application;\u201D. I invite the Minister to take another call to clarify that word \u201Crelevant\u201D. Does it apply simply to people\u2019s qualifications, or to the jobs that they already have? What is this relevancy in relation to a particular application? That is not clear. I do not think that a lot of the applicants will feel very relieved to listen to those criteria when they do not understand how the officials will interpret the word \u201Crelevant\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E The other exception is where the principal applicant had claimed 28 points, or more, under the Government residence policy applying to that application. I find that very, very unfair. Basically, it changes the rules after people have already entered the race. As I pointed out at the beginning, it was announced that the number of points required had been reduced from 30 to 27. If the Immigration Service and the Minister of Immigration had been doing their job, they would have said that people who scored below 28 points would not settle well in New Zealand. Why offer the possibility to them? Why put the number of points at below 28 points? People have, in good faith, put in their applications after looking at the immigration website. They ticked the boxes and found they had 27 points, which was the number required by the policy to qualify, and then they suddenly found out yesterday or today that their applications would be considered further only if they had 28 or more points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI say that changing the rules is not fair. This legislation is retrospective. The Minister has just said that it will not be retrospective, and that clause 3 was introduced only to clarify the legislation. I think that with this particular measure, one can definitely say it is retrospective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1878a8a610544468a5fef357ae6b139\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1878a8a610544468a5fef357ae6b139\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Immigration sought to clarify New Zealand First\u2019s policy, and she did a thoroughly bad job of it because she does not support our policy, and we do not support hers. She sought to paint a picture of having done something when she has done nothing. In fact, I have just looked at my colleague Dail Jones\u2019 questioning of her at the select committee at the time the immigration issue came before the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220032e6c3387f4191b9c974f5e88f3fea\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why wasn\u2019t the member there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fd358ac9d845a692929d9c7ac871f8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I had unfortunately been expelled from the House\u2014quite wrongfully, in my view. As a consequence, I could not attend. Nevertheless, Dail Jones did a very fine job. He established that Lianne Dalziel, in all her time as the Minister, had got two Cabinet papers ready. She claimed that the idea of registering consultants was a good one, but all she had done was to look at the office in Sydney\u2014the Migration Agents Registration Authority. She said she thought it might have a solution and that now it looked like a real possibility. In the meantime, of course, every sort of fraud, lie, and cheating activity has gone on in the Immigration Service in this country amongst a whole lot of consultants. There has been deception here, there, and everywhere. Chinese have been openly advertising\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d250ed7a684a45a6a70fed8d30ab0d8d\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What about Mr Delamere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221244de93c070472e90fda605ddb67de5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Delamere was fired from New Zealand First. He was never a Minister of Immigration under us, so that member should not look at me. But my point is this: how come he has been operating for 3\u00BD years under Lianne Dalziel? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe reality is that there are all sorts of people out there who are openly advertising fraudulent activities in Chinese. The Minister was on the Assignment programme and was asked whether she was aware of any forgeries and frauds. Her answer was \u201CNo\u201D. What a joke! Talk about deer in the headlights! That is this Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI have just been on a radio programme with the Minister, and she embarrassed herself again. She thinks that because she can swim under water without breathing for 3 or 4 minutes that that will do in politics, but it will not work. One actually has to be able to say something sensible. The reality is that this Minister is dead scared of getting things wrong. That is why she says in Part 2 that clarification is required so that the New Zealand Immigration Service can regulate and order the manner of processing these applications according to agreed Government departmental policies and priorities. Why would she say that, were it not that she was too scared of making any of those attempts and finding she had again breached the law? That is why she says it. She goes on to say: \u201CClause 5 ensures that past prioritisation of the processing of applications for visas and permits cannot be challenged in the courts.\u201D This is a member who is meant to be a lawyer. She wants her actions, inactions, and mistakes to be above any legal reproach. I know Labour MPs over there, and I know politicians like that. Mind, one would not call them politicians; one would call them despots, or autocrats. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe Minister wants to be above the law, and I will give an example. She now wants immigration officers to be above the law. If they screw up, there is to be no right of appeal. We can have the biggest bunch of crooks coming into the country as a result of their mistakes, and no one can appeal it. I suppose that is the reason there are so many businesses in Auckland that are run by the triads. Members should go to the bottom of town and find out what is going on down there\u2014the abuse of women, cycled into here for 3 months, then off to Australia because they now have a half-way respectable tourism visa, off to UK for 3 months, and then back home, a total waste. All that is happening under the name of that Minister of Immigration. She laughs and smiles. I know how people like her think. As long as they have the baubles of office, showing some integrity and merit to be in that job has no bearing on them. She might think it is funny, but, after September 11, where on earth would there be any civilized country that would leave such a decision up to an immigration officer? After September 11 and Bali, which fool would leave that decision up to an immigration officer? That fool over there would! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOther countries\u2014including the United States, for example\u2014are reviewing all past applications for the last 6 years to ensure they do not have terrorists, and here is our Minister happy for foreign immigration officials to bring in a foreigner, and his mistake, wanton or otherwise, is beyond reproach. Which fool after September 11 and Bali would allow that to happen to his or her country? It would be one that does not care. The Government does not care. It is caught out now by a policy that 82 percent of New Zealanders are opposed to, and they are opposed to the Minister and her numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2f6356ed5734625a5cfe615f74e80e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2f6356ed5734625a5cfe615f74e80e2\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E In initiating this particular debate the Minister in the chair, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, made a very provocative speech, and the member who has just resumed his seat made some reference to that. But the key point was her explanation to the Committee that we need this legislation because of all the shams, the crooks, and all the bad dealings that are going on out there. Yet the point has been made that on the Assignment programme she was asked the hard question straight, yes or no, whether she knew of any fraudulent, bad practices, and her answer was that no, she did not. She says one thing on television when she is under scrutiny by the nation, yet she comes to the Chamber and says that we need this legislation because of all the sham deals and all the crook situations that exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWhen we analyse this bill, we find it does nothing to assuage our concerns because of clause 5, which relates to validation of process. What on earth does that mean? In other words, however bad something may have been, however wrong, however unjust, by a stroke of a pen the bureaucrats can declare it to be right. Under common law we had such things as writ mandamuses. In other words, if bureaucrats failed to act or failed to follow due process, we could go to the courts with a writ mandamus. But the effect of this clause is that no writ mandamus could possibly succeed against it. It states that failure by a visa officer or an immigration officer or the Minister\u2014even the Minister\u2014to process an application for a visa or permit, including a residence visa or anything else is just declared to be all right, no matter what mistake has been made. That is totally unsatisfactory. Then we think that perhaps there is some sort of appeal process. But, no, we turn over the page and, lo and behold, all rights of appeal have been expunged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EClause 5(2) states: \u201CNo appeal lies against any decision \u2026\u201D Then subclause (3) states that there is no review processing. So whatever one has done wrong, whatever mistakes, whatever injustices, they will retrospectively be declared to be right, and there are no rights of review and no rights of appeal. That cannot be good legislation. It is totally bad legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Minister initially said in her speech that she first issued drafting instructions for this bill on 23 June. We made the point that that was only 6 working-days ago. She must have been up in her office listening to a wireless. She heard us challenge her, came rushing down here, and said: \u201COh no, that was just part of the bill. The rest of it was under draft long before that.\u201D I tell the Minister that that is not the impression she clearly gave the Chamber when she initially spoke about it. It seems that this Minister is prepared to say anything if she thinks she can get away with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E I would like to take up the terrible slur the Minister made against Pansy Wong. Even after being forced by the Chair to withdraw and apologise, she kept grinning like some inane canary and giggling to her colleagues on the Labour benches. The Minister is constantly slurring taxi-drivers. Taxi-driving is a very necessary profession. We want good taxi-drivers. They are part of our tourist industry. We want a good class of taxi-driver. However, at every turn that Minister is slamming taxi-drivers and constantly slamming cooks, who are also a critical part of our tourist industry. We need good cooks. The Minister calls them hamburger flippers. She is constantly beating up on cooks and taxi-drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225375140942d74f8bb284777f18c07d65\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Arrogant socialists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e28d94436d4c51a602e55578382d0e\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: One of my colleagues has made an observation about arrogant socialists, and we see that so often. So often in our Parliament legislation is slammed through under urgency. It seems to be the trademark of the arrogant socialists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EClauses 5 and 6 require a lot of scrutiny. They are fundamental and tramp on the rights of people for review of process and for appeal about bad decisions. There are three measures that totally abrogate those rights. Firstly, any mistakes declared to be valid are dealt with under clause 5(1)(a) and (b). Under clause 5(2) there are no rights of appeal; and under clause 5(3) there are no rights of review. I do not recall there ever being such bad legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022be17e582419440558cda30b81ba2227e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be17e582419440558cda30b81ba2227e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E In context, Part 2 has huge importance in terms of issues of reputation for New Zealand, the Parliament, and the Minister. In speaking on clause 5, I can only but agree with Dail Jones that there are some very great worries about it. That is the provision where validation of processing and lapsing of applications is dealt with. It does seem absolutely extraordinary that it states: \u201CPast order and manner of processing applications deemed valid (1) Any\u2014(a) failure by a visa officer or an immigration officer or the Minister to process an application for a visa or permit. \u2026; or (b) decision by a visa officer or an immigration officer or the Minister to process or not to process an application for a visa or permit \u2026 occurring or made before the commencement of this Act is deemed to have been validly done in accordance with the discretion of a visa officer or immigration officer to determine the order and manner of processing an application.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn other words, any mistakes that may have been made, are valid. It is absolutely unbelievable. If we are to go to first principles in terms of immigration policy, we want to make sure that that immigration policy is predictable, transparent, certain and fair. We have a situation whereby a lawyer has written into legislation: \u201CAny mistakes that have been made are valid.\u201D It is absolutely unbelievable. All wrong decisions are right decisions. This lawyer is putting that into legislation under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f4133a9377542508cad166ba024781d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: A trade-union lawyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268dd66ccbf8547448c0e79cde593fa1f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. We have to make the description very clear. Subclauses (2) and (3) in clause 5 provide for no appeal. They state that no appeal lies against any decision to process or not to process an application for a visa or permit, and that no proceedings may be brought in any court in respect of any failure to process, or any decisions to process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAs a former gynaecologist, if I mucked up, I would expect my patients to be able to go through a process of appeal. Here the Minister has mucked up really badly\u201420,000 applicants, 46,000 people, and it does not matter. They have no right of appeal and no day in court. As Winston Peters said, that touches on the bounds of autocracy and it touches on the bounds of despotism. One wonders whether the true instincts of the Labour Government are really coming to the fore, because it is saying in law that any mistakes that have been made are valid, all wrong decisions are right, and one has no appeal process through the courts. It is absolutely incredible that a union lawyer wants to put this sort of legislation through the New Zealand Parliament under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EClause 6 suggests that the cost for application fees that are to be refunded will be about $10.5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfe897d585fa4cbda67f2fc9f4d57d58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfe897d585fa4cbda67f2fc9f4d57d58\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 is symptomatic of a Government that, when it makes a major muck-up, sees its role as bringing down the swift axe of Parliament. It uses Parliament to ride roughshod over people\u2019s rights, to ride roughshod over people who have entered a process in good faith. My colleague Paul Hutchison made reference to clause 5, which makes right any decisions that the bureaucrats have made up to this point\u2014whether or not they were right\u2014and makes valid any mistakes that have been made. That sort of management of a portfolio and that sort of policy are to be absolutely rejected in this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI shall focus on clause 6, which deals with the lapsing of certain applications made before 20 November 2002. Lapsing the applications of people who came into the process in good faith is no way to manage an immigration policy and is no way to manage that portfolio. Again, that sort of draconian action is symptomatic of a Government that, when it comes to the crunch, when it has to try to make up for its muck-ups, acts in this arbitrary manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister of Immigration to explain part of clause 6, for my benefit and, hopefully, for the benefit of others both inside and outside this House. It provides that applications for residence visas or permits that were made before 20 November 2002, and that have not been decided as at the date of the commencement of this legislation, which will come into play today, tomorrow, or, certainly, within the next 2 or 3 days, are deemed to lapse, unless the applicants satisfy one of the four categories listed\u2014if they wish to stay in the process. One is that the applicant \u201Chad claimed points for an offer of employment classed as \u2018relevant\u2019 under the Government residence policy applying to that application;\u201D. What is the meaning of the word \u201Crelevant\u201D in this context? I would appreciate the Minister taking a call to give us some detail around that. For an officer administering the policy, the word \u201Crelevant\u201D can be taken to mean anything that the officer wants it to mean. That is not acceptable in this sort of area. I would like an explanation, because clause 6 does not define what \u201Crelevant\u201D means in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThere is the issue of applicants who had claimed 28 or more points under the Government residence policy applying for the application. That points system, of course, is a huge issue in itself. Some applicants may have thought, just before the commencement of this bill: \u201CI\u2019m OK. I\u2019m in.\u201D, but there is now a change in the points system. The limit goes up from 27 to 28 points, so they are out in the cold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI turn to paragraph (iv) of clause (6)(1)(a), which deals with applicants who \u201Chad been invited in writing by a visa officer or an immigration officer to apply for a work visa \u2026\u201D. I would like an explanation of that provision. Has it been the policy for some time that visa officers can give invitations, as this suggests, or is it something new? Was it actually invented yesterday, which means these applicants will be cut out any way? Nobody will be able to satisfy that condition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIn terms of lapsing applications, particularly in the context of the way that this Minister has brought this bill into the House, and is rushing it through under urgency, those provisions require explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022824bb313bb1b455b9aef1931b986c8bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022824bb313bb1b455b9aef1931b986c8bf\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6b60aa334244325a810c177a1161ec0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6b60aa334244325a810c177a1161ec0\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My call on this occasion might be brief because I want to limit it to just a couple of issues. First of all, I want to get some clarification from the Minister of Immigration as to when she gave the instructions and why the instructions were given, with regard to the court decision. From my understanding, on reading this bill, it is clause 6 in Part 2 that refers to the court decision\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e5bde78af448729816e83a7a63d06b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 3. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3b7547c885487ebb0cd96b5f989ce3\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that clause 6 does not refer to the court decision? I would have thought that clause 6 was the court decision. She is saying that clause 6 is not the court decision with regard to points and suchlike! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e593f6666174520a24ce4e5668e1f42\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285f012d196414f4d95ba12d90ebbf946\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: She is saying that only clause 3 refers to it. As I read it, clause 6 is the one that must relate to the court decision. Is she saying that the instructions with regard to clause 6 were given a long time ago? Well before the court decision, instructions were given to draft clause 6(1): \u201CAll applications for residence visas or residence permits made before 20 November 2002 \u2026\u201D\u2014which is the date, as I recall, that was constantly mentioned in the court case. Was not 20 November 2002 a feature of the court case? So she is telling the Committee, and all the other people involved in this area, that the Government had made up its mind, probably during the process of the court case, before the decision was made, that it was going to do the things set out in clause 6. That is how I understand it. So that point has been cleared up, and it is an interesting point, because that is not the way I had understood it to be. Perhaps those people who are very closely associated with clause 6 will take that into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe only other brief point I will make is about the Minister\u2019s reference to Mr Legget and his desire to bring skilled people to New Zealand. Well, that is a New Zealand First policy. The only question is we do not want to see 190,000 people coming into this country, of whom barely 10,000 have any skills, which is what happened in the year ended December 2002. Our policy is skilled people for skilled work, not 190,000 people, 65,000 of whom are here on a temporary basis, and about 75,000 of whom also are not here on a skills basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022b98acbcd378041409c260e2ef210c08c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b98acbcd378041409c260e2ef210c08c\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u002216c9d1ef2eae42ba8f726eb57e7a9bce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216c9d1ef2eae42ba8f726eb57e7a9bce\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 is a substantial part, and I am disappointed to see Government members taking calls purely to seek closure on a matter that deserves sensible consideration by the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd1837d5c6344b6b39f747edb0783c0\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How sanctimonious!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b16cfbddcc4bffb1609b2143c3d5d6\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cosgrove may think that we should expunge the rights of over 10,000 individual applicants\u2014maybe over 25,000 individual applicants\u2014under the system, without even giving the matter a second thought, without even having a select committee discussion, without even giving it any consideration in the Committee of the whole House. That is what he wants to shut down. We are not going to have a select committee, or give any of the people whose rights are affected by this measure the opportunity to make a submission in the normal way. But Mr Cosgrove thinks it is OK to make only one contribution to this discussion in the Committee stage\u2014that is, to try to stop it. He has not uttered a word of debate, not a word of support for the measure, and has not given an explanation to any of the questions raised by members of three parties opposed to the bill. They are questions that the Minister will not answer, because she does not know the answer. Maybe Mr Cosgrove knows the answers, but he will not take a call and tell us the answers. I want to say that is thuggery; that is not good enough, and that member had better recall that if that is going to be the approach of the Government on matters that affect people\u2019s rights so seriously, then he is in for a very rough ride. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI want to talk about clause 6 because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b27360c4dab4a66b63934dde1889dc8\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f817bf66e6194b9eb0e6cc51eaacef84\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the member not take a call? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dc9a28b462442628f3169740dc09f0f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Order! [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284af5d06a9a2413e9eacf33b7638e034\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. As you were making an intervention, the chief Government whip offered an insulting reference, which I took to be a reference to the Chair. I think you are entitled to take exception to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253e9371f96874f26a79dc2ec685d74c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member make a comment? I did not catch what was said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223034cdcdf60342c2895c6ebf0c269b78\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: My exception was to the member calling my colleague Mr Cosgrove a thug, which is neither parliamentary nor acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b7a4df4abf04c6abe4e203c44735d0b\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chairperson, I was just trying to look after your interests in this matter, but if you want to overlook that kind of intervention on my part, I will move on to my scrutiny of clause 6. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EWhat happens with clause 6 is that a large majority of the 46,000 applications\u2014which the explanatory note tells us are valid applications before the Minister at the moment\u2014are expunged. Those applications are wiped out. If we are going to pass this bill, I think there are some questions the Minister should answer. The first question is why it is that no significant changes were made during the last 4 years, which would have changed the number of people who made applications. The Government has been in office for 4 years; it has had 4 years of officials reports, statistics, and 4 years of opportunity to change the basis on which these people were invited to apply. These are people who have applied in the last 2 years. This Government has been in office for 4 years, and the Minister has done nothing, but she comes along now and says she wants this legislation passed under urgency, with over half of these people having their rights expunged. I want the Minister to say why the Government has done nothing for the 4 years before she came along with this measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EWhy has the Minister not made any changes to the wider programme that is spelt out? Of the percentage of people identified in various categories, 60 percent still are in the skills and business category. In the spirit of the changes contained in clause 6, I would have thought that there would be changes also to the wider framework of the Government\u2019s immigration programme. I think the Minister herself conceded in the earlier debate that there are some valid points to be made. I want to know how it is that we have a bill that expunges people\u2019s rights, particularly in relation to clause 6, but there is no wider indication of a change in policy or strategic thinking that would provide some guidance in this respect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI also want to go back to clause 5 and ask the Minister whether she will tell us precisely what sort of discretions are envisaged by that part. I read in the explanatory note that priorities will be given to various applicants whose rights are not expunged by clause 5, and those priorities will be identified according to high contribution and settlement potential\u2014that is, those who can make a greater and more immediate contribution to New Zealand\u2019s immigration policy objectives, and are themselves likely to obtain the greater benefit from the decision to migrate. I want to know what that means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00222976f46abe514ea4bf2d849873d238fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222976f46abe514ea4bf2d849873d238fa\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00225932790506434affae865c0f83e171f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225932790506434affae865c0f83e171f6\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E What sort of a jackboot Government do we have when we have closure motions on a part with a despotic clause that says that officials can do no wrong? That is what we are expected to pass in this Parliament today\u2014a sort of Roman-type provision that says Caesar can do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fd833b0104e4800a1f013d4d9622a41\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Caesar didn\u2019t wear jackboots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a1586f53fb0413e971dc06408e7ca0c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: He did not wear jackboots, but he certainly would have said: \u201C I can do no wrong\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWhat we have in clause 5 is a provision to the effect that it does not matter whether the officials got it all wrong; it does not matter whether they failed; it does not matter whether they made mistakes, because they are deemed to have been right. That is an extraordinary provision for Parliament to pass at any time, let alone under urgency, and with no select committee process. I want to know from the Minister how clause 5 matches up with her promise that Labour would allow for an open Government approach with proper consultative processes and the real involvement of members of Parliament. If that is not a contradiction, I do not know what is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI come now to clause 6. This is the provision that expunges thousands and thousands of people\u2019s applications. What sort of Mickey Mouse operation is the New Zealand Government running if it is just going to wipe out thousands and thousands of applications? I have this question for the Minister: according to her own notes, why is it that 14,669 applications lodged prior to 20 November 2002 have not yet been processed? That is 8 months ago. What sort of outfit is this Minister of Immigration running? [Interruption] That is out of 20,000, so it means that three-quarters of the applications lodged prior to 20 November last year have not been processed. Is that the sort of \u201Cefficient\u201D Government department we would expect to have operating in this nation? It is an embarrassment, and I want to know why. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to know from the Minister how many people are being ripped off by this provision. The papers say she does not know. We do not even know from the Government, under urgency, yet we are being asked to write off all of those people\u2019s rights. We know it is something less than 14,669, but no member opposite is able to tell this Committee just how many people are being done over by this provision. I ask Mr Benson-Pope and Mr Cosgrove why this Parliament should pass a law that will expunge people\u2019s rights when we do not even know how many there are. How many of those people have acted in good faith? How many of those people would make good migrants for this country? How many of those people might want to have some right of appeal? We know none of that, yet not one Government member has been prepared to get to their feet and defend the sort of jackboot legislation that is being passed under urgency by this Parliament. The bill is being passed through all stages, yet it was introduced at only 4 o\u2019clock yesterday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EAgain, I put this to the Minister: this Government has been in office for 4 years. Government members have been defending the immigration policy for all that period. Yet, suddenly\u2014overnight\u2014the penny drops, and they have suddenly decided that the policy is all wrong, and that, under urgency, they will change it. I see that the Associate Minister of Immigration, Mr O\u2019Connor, has come into the Chamber. The Minister has not been able to answer the questions, so I wonder whether that member is able to tell the Committee why he believes that Government officials should be deemed by law to have done everything right, even when they have erred and made mistakes. Can some member opposite please explain why we should pass a provision that says that even when officials make mistakes, they have got it right? I also want to know from someone opposite how many people are affected. This Parliament deserves to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0fcea09a9ad429caa905f8b65690882\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0fcea09a9ad429caa905f8b65690882\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00220ce1fea50e57406abed4dbfc6d5d8fa3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ce1fea50e57406abed4dbfc6d5d8fa3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I remind members that in the last 24 hours one Lianne Dalziel has been out telling everybody that her department will be able to process a new regime whereby all applicants will be in receipt of an answer within 3 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252f2e4db9c544ea08892b17267d622c5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah, right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5a247dc23814553b9420a6964247358\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right. She was asked this morning how she was going to implement, on the ground, the globalisation priority programme she has, and she said \u201Cat trade fairs.\u201D If we look at some facts, we see, for example, that 75 percent of the applicants before 20 November 2002 have not been processed. Some would suggest that given the demands before it, the department is incapable of doing its job. Why would a Minister make those sorts of claims, then try to underpin the whole thing with the slogan: \u201CWe\u2019re going to have no more doctors driving taxis.\u201D How many doctors are driving taxis? Two hundred? Four hundred? But it ain\u2019t 72,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022649e24c164db4367907c5c741cd970d3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That was said 10 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290eede05c1e14f2aa832c0484e05e229\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. It was an issue 10 years ago; that is a fact. And do members know how those members got here? They were got into New Zealand by the Labour Party late in 1988-89 and 1990. Most of them got here then\u2014and it was an issue in the 1999 election campaign. I can remember people coming to us and saying: \u201CWhy can\u2019t we get ourselves qualifications in New Zealand?\u201D The answer is that they had such an appalling policy back then that one group was approving qualifications, and another group, the Medical Association, was saying it would not register them. It is that simple. But here is my point: the Minister, like her colleagues, thinks that everything can be handled by spin. But she will not get past this part, and that is her inability\u2014and the inability of any of her colleagues\u2014to tell us why one would repose in a civil servant or bureaucrat, and in many cases a foreigner, the capacity to make a decision, and for there to be no rights of appeal against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister to tell us how many frauds she has found within her department in the last 12 months. There is a stack of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d8ae51c53e340f39ea34ae1c63f223c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: She probably doesn\u2019t know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bfd8c2b2e3147729e2064e55b843a6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Her department head knew. There is a stack of them. One guy was guilty of 12 that her department knew about. In short, there was a guy sitting outside the High Commission in New Delhi selling visas\u2014not inside; outside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279be68b160bb496bbe334f0a3c73ce28\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: At a discount?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cafe3c0c40874d35969fa4a05d945107\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014out under the trees. He was successfully selling visas for this country. The reason was that those who would normally go to the High Commission said: \u201CWe get a far better deal with this guy outside, and he has been licensed from inside.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdfa133770fa444fbdddb36782517cf1\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a trade fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b63d0e3e58d4e95afff6e55a540bb0a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d614315c8d34ccabd4362cfb95ae183\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Fair trade!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f84f02636da48e9b223ce607574c1b8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Whether they were getting a fair trade, I do not know, but given the number of frauds within the department, it is ridiculous to say that fraud or otherwise, encouraged or otherwise, this country will stand by that person\u2019s decision and no one will have the right of appeal. One would think that the Minister would get up and, above all, provide some satisfactory explanation as to why she would do that. But more important, we cannot deny the facts when she lapses about 43,000 people, though I am not too sure how many fit that category. What we are certain of is that when the Minister says those people do not live in New Zealand, she does not know what she is talking about. Every year, 190,000 are coming in, in all sorts of categories, such as students. It is all in this document. The Minister should try to get herself some education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242992dfe9c2a411483a5ab11d766d8bf\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve read it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1d30344c9d045f1a0ec64064dcc0213\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, she will know that what I say is true. In total, 190,000 people, including international students, are being approved for permanent and temporary residence. How does she know what is going on? She does not know what is going on, and she never will. Her department\u2019s inability to handle the problem is evidenced by the fact that it has a huge backlog. There she was last night looking so forlorn and saying: \u201COh, it\u2019s been ongoing for 2 years.\u201D Well, nobody is paying the Minister for being useless\u2014she should resign. If she cannot do her job, she should go, because she has long outserved her usefulness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c8d9be16644b539563edc3130c0e5c\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: A cracked record!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739b608debda4d12b1bfd24d87e345cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not a cracked record. This CD will get more parts to it than one has ever heard. That is a fact, because every day now, telephone books of scandals are being sent to our office, and I have all sorts of people who want to see me in Auckland and tell me about their latest story\u2014Chinese people, Indian and Bangladeshi people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00222744baab14854d1784d69999326fbae6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222744baab14854d1784d69999326fbae6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00224f89488a000b4a0e9031c1ca3b2bf0af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f89488a000b4a0e9031c1ca3b2bf0af\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E This has been an interesting debate. It is a debate under urgency, and Government members have not been prepared to stand up, take calls, and articulate and support legislation that will infringe the rights of so many people. Not one of them has stood up and taken a call the whole of this morning, when we have been here pointing out that this legislation will affect 46,000 people whose applications will be expunged at the stroke of a pen after the third reading today. That is what will happen. There is no opportunity for anybody to attend a select committee; there are no submissions, no transparency, and no consultation. Yet this is a Government that has said in the past that consultation and open government is what it stands for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EToday the Minister of Immigration is denying those people the opportunity to come to New Zealand in good faith and add value to our community and society as a whole. Today the Government will expunge their rights, and those people will be out. Everything has been overridden. Where is the natural justice when, with a stroke of a pen today, the Government says: \u201CYou\u2019re not wanted here; get on your bike, you\u2019re out?\u201D What about all the people who have come from areas like Zimbabwe? Every week in my electorate of Piako I am getting numerous requests from people from Zimbabwe who have come to New Zealand. They have no certainty that they can stay here. What have they got if they go home? They have actually got nothing. Those people are absolutely stateless. They have nothing to go back to. This Government has had an opportunity over the last 4 years to make those people welcome here. They are the kinds of people we want; they can add value. But, no, they are down and out on their luck, and this Government today is saying: \u201CWe don\u2019t want you. You can\u2019t add any value to what we are doing. You\u2019re down and out.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIf I look at how this department will operate in the future under Part 2, I see that any mistakes that have been made by officers will be deemed to be valid. The slate will be clean. It is like the Clean Slate Bill that the Justice and Electoral Committee is talking about. This is what will happen here; there will be a clean slate because mistakes, misdemeanours, or whatever will be deemed to be valid. I do not know of anybody or any organisation that does not have to account for its actions. But clause 5 of this bill is headed: \u201CPast order and manner of processing applications deemed valid\u201D. Where is the accountability? Where is the transparency that one would expect? If I am employing somebody, then I would expect him or her to front up, and to rectify anything that is not up to par. But under clause 5 that has been wiped.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EClause 5 goes on to say in subclause (2) that there will be no appeals against any decision to process or not to process an application for a visa or a permit. There is actually no appeal process. What about those 46,000 people whom I mentioned before? There is no appeal process. They cannot appeal. Subclause (3) states that no review proceedings may be brought in court in respect of any failure in the process. Once again, there are no opportunities for those people. People want their day in court, but that is being denied by this clause. They are being denied their day in court. As I asked earlier: where is the natural justice? This measure is going to affect 20,000 applications, or 46,000 people, whose livelihood is at stake. This Government is absolutely insensitive to what is required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EClause 6 is headed: \u201CLapsing of certain applications made before 20 November 2002\u201D. This Government has been in power now for 4 years. Why is the Government doing this under urgency today? We are opposed to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00220f5cf3d096ff44a186e678a059e42b77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f5cf3d096ff44a186e678a059e42b77\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f88ad449e3fe42cda74e68c728ebc829\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022308acb47872849ab88937ab6841eb711\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000390\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b92f940ec89f4f16a13164a55e676771\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00222ca3b82bd62a468f89ee9201594668f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ca3b82bd62a468f89ee9201594668f3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. This bill does three things. It provides for global prioritisation. We believe that we have the power currently to do this, because we are able to manage the way that we address those applications that come in, but we are not taking any risks. This measure enables the best applications to be dealt with first. I, quite frankly, have been absolutely amazed at the support for the \u201Cfirst come, first served\u201D principle, which would not serve New Zealand well. I want every member in this House to realise that the global prioritisation principle is about ensuring that those who have job offers, who are already needed in New Zealand, have access to residence first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe second thing that the bill does is that it introduces the lapsing provisions. I am aware that there will be people who are disappointed as a result of that. It was made very clear in the debate that it does not apply to applications lodged after 20 November last year; it does not apply to applicants who have lodged more than 28 points; it does not apply where there is a relevant job offer; it does not apply where the applicants have already been invited to apply for a job-search visa, or one has been granted to them; and it does not apply where all the criteria have been met for approval in principle. So only one component of the group of people who currently have applications in the pipeline will have those applications lapsed. The application fees for those lapsed applications will be refunded in full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt is no wonder National Party members have got up in this House to defend rights. Actually, it is the first time that I have heard National Party members get up in this Parliament and do that. In the 13 years that I have been here, I have never heard a National Party member get up to defend someone\u2019s rights. What the National Party members are really defending is the fact that they got it wrong. In 1991 the policy got it wrong. The 1998 adjustment, which allowed migrants to get full points for a job offer that was not relevant to their qualifications or experience, was an unmitigated disaster for this country. The National Party, in essence, is defending the National Government\u2019s policy errors; this policy puts them right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe skilled immigration policy is surely designed to meet the needs of New Zealand. If other parties are willing to sit back and wait for people to apply to come to New Zealand\u2014bringing skills that New Zealand may or may not need\u2014and then to forget about them the moment that they arrive in this country, then so be it. That is not what this Government stands for. This Government is pro-immigration, pro-migrant, pro-settlement, and pro - New Zealand, and that approach produces the best of all worlds. All will benefit from the approach that we have adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ENational Party members have asked what I have done in the last 3\u00BD years. To quote one of my very good colleagues on this side of the House, I have done \u201Cheaps\u201D in the immigration portfolio. I have an entire page of delivery, in terms of our policy, that I could go through, but I just want to mention two points. I said, when I became the Minister, that there were people in the country with residence who could not get work, and there were people in the country with work who could not get residence. I have done everything within my power to address that issue. I have said that the settlement focus has to be the key approach to immigration. That is why we established pilot schemes\u2014to make sure that skilled migrants were matched with skilled opportunities in New Zealand. We brought in the work-to-residence policy, and the talent visa has been hugely successful. This bill is not a knee-jerk reaction; it has been a very long time in the planning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn the Committee stage I read out the public comments of immigration consultants who do not accept the position of the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment, and I want to close with some comments from business other than Business New Zealand. This is a statement from the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc: \u201CBusiness has forever said the best way of selecting immigrants suited to New Zealand was for them to show they had a genuine offer of a job from a New Zealand enterprise. The changes announced yesterday move a long way towards delivering this approach, and the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) endorses it with enthusiasm. \u2018Immigration Minister Lianne Dalziel\u2019s approach is fundamentally the right one for business, particularly for manufacturing businesses.\u2019, says Alisdair Thompson, EMA\u2019s Chief Executive. \u2018A labour department survey last year showed many of our enterprises are not growing as fast as they could, because of a lack of suitable skills, especially people with trades and vocational skills. Skill shortages were found to be holding back growth for 42 percent of smaller businesses, but the door must be kept open for immigrants bringing capital with them. In addressing the issues, Minister Dalziel has made more progress with the portfolio than any Minister I can remember. While some people may be disadvantaged, the change needed was bound to cause some disruption.\u2019 \u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMy point is that there would be more disruption if we do not do this, if we do not get it right for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002277e8862cc8c9411db470affde9f7efec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277e8862cc8c9411db470affde9f7efec\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Immigration got only one thing right. This legislation cannot be a knee-jerk reaction; there have been 4 years of incompetent management by that Minister of the immigration portfolio. That is why it has ended up with a backlog that will take 2\u00BD years to process. That is why we have ended up having to rush legislation through Parliament to lapse people who have had their applications in the pool for 2 years, and who are now being told: \u201CTough luck!\u201D. They will just get their fees refunded; they will not even be compensated for interest lost during that time. That does nothing for the international reputation of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut today has been an eye-opener. It confirms the arrogant approach of the Labour Government. When it makes mistakes it never apologises. I just make that observation. When the Labour Government makes mistakes, it adopts the following actions: it never apologises, it blames everyone in sight, and it rushes legislation through under urgency. It is quite frightening. Even today, I personally have felt the anger of the Minister. If anyone dares to question her actions, she says something like: \u201CWell, Pansy Wong, you just wait and see.\u201D I think, wow, it must be quite frightening for all those immigration consultants and business organisations. Who would dare to write any letters to that Minister of Immigration that point out her faults or mistakes? I presume she treats everybody equally, so she would tell them: \u201CYou just wait and see.\u201D She reads out letters of endorsement only. I think the scenario is quite clear: one should never question the Labour Government or cross it; otherwise, one shall pay the price. A very, very threatening environment is created, and it is reinforced by the provisions in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EToday the legislation is being challenged by the Opposition parties only. I doubt very much whether United Future members have actually read the bill, or whether Labour back-bench members understand what it is all about. The environment that has been created, and that now extends to the Immigration Service, gives absolute power to the chief executive, the Minister, and the visa officers to make rulings. This legislation states that if they get those rulings wrong, they will be treated as correct. I think that, in future, members on this side of the House will have a real problem, because most of us will have a lot of constituents who want to question immigration rulings. We will have to tell them \u201CTough luck!\u201D, because the legislation was rushed through Parliament, and, in effect, a ruling on the so-called \u201Corder and manner of processing\u201D cannot be questioned. Lots of people will have no recourse from that. What has happened to the open and transparent governance that this Labour Government has always claimed to have?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other eye-opener, for me, anyway, is to know\u2014Labour and United Future would not admit it, but it is true\u2014that the Government has started to study New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy. Its members have continued to ask New Zealand First members why they do not vote for the legislation, as it is that party\u2019s immigration policy. I find the double standard very confusing. New Zealand First wants to restrict immigration, and this is anti-migrant. Labour and United Future are rushing through this legislation to legislate away the rights of 20,000 people for proper assessment, and to bring down the number of migrants, and they claim that is pro-migrant. What is the difference? Nobody seems to want to take a call and explain. Why do Labour and United Future not stand up and say they have adopted New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy, and will continue to study its immigration policy? The public, in future, should be very aware of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a5a6c333ed4b04be546bf95e1c6381\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: The passage of this bill further cements a Labour governance style of being heavy-handed; Labour can do no wrong, and the critics had better watch out. Minister Lianne Dalziel demonstrated that by accusing me of somehow being involved with money-laundering immigration scams. The only crime I am guilty of is to question her legislation. It is a day of shame in Parliament when a Minister fails to acknowledge that she is not on top of her portfolio, and resorts to threats to her fellow MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EDid she not promise to bring in legislation to regulate immigration consultants who are not behaving according to the way that the law was drafted? Did she not promise to do that? She has failed to do it, and, as a result, some potential migrants have had a raw deal. She did not bring legislation to the House to deal to those immigration consultants. Instead, she is rushing legislation through, under urgency, to deal to over 20,000 innocent migrant applicants who responded to her promotion in various places, in October 2001 I think it was, to encourage people to apply to come to New Zealand. The points required at that stage were 24 or 25; now she is saying that all those applications should lapse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EGlobal prioritisation\u2014another Labour spin\u2014really means that Chinese, Indians, and Koreans need not apply. Labour is in a glass house, and should not throw stones at New Zealand First, because Labour really agrees with that party\u2019s immigration policy. This global prioritisation means less transparent and objective criteria will apply. It is a recipe for corruption. Immigration consultants and organisations that have the ear of the politicians and officials can in future expect favourable treatment. Under the provisions of this bill, the public and Opposition MPs cannot question, appeal, or seek review. United Future\u2019s part in opening the door to corruption in our country\u2019s immigration system will not be forgotten. \u201CUnited\u201D they might be, but there will not be much of a \u201CFuture\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Minister says the New Zealand Immigration Service has the capacity to implement this global prioritisation. Why should we have confidence in that, when it is clear that in the House today, under urgency, provisions are being introduced to clear a backlog of applications that would take the service 2\u00BD years to assess? Under the Labour Government\u2019s so-called new skilled migrants policy there is provision for the service simply to lapse applications when it thinks fit, or to decide without having to explain why, or not to issue a letter of invitation. That provision was introduced just to avoid the Government having to put more resources into making sure the Immigration Service is doing its job properly. This Minister, who has spent 4 years in her portfolio, adopts a defensive mentality. She oversees a backlog of applications made in the past 2 years, then passes legislation under urgency to lapse those innocent people, who responded in good faith to the invitation to apply to come to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00220373b84e578d4a9aab42fd2797e0c489\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220373b84e578d4a9aab42fd2797e0c489\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future is pleased to support the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). I take issue with Pansy Wong\u2019s comments that United Future would support things that lead to corruption. That would be totally incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EDear old Winston has his three policies to fix, but now he is going to have to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b720bc619d61426696fd20b4778c9fde\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! The member will be referred to by his full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b3aa5d63c04c188c87b7ef21695c1c\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. The Rt Hon Winston Peters, with his three things to fix, will have to place a bandage on one of his fingers, because he obviously hit the finger instead of using this opportunity to bring his policy in and achieve what he had stated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThis bill that we have been dealing with covers two groups of migrants. To start with, the bill aims to prioritise those general skills category applications currently in the system, of which we have heard there are 20,000, representing 46,000 people. As soon as this bill is passed, which will be very shortly\u2014thanks to United Future\u2014those with a job offer relevant to their skills, or with high points, will be prioritised in the immigration queue. The Hon Richard Prebble tried to say that this legislation was introduced because the points system does not work. This bill is not saying the points system does not work, and in fact the new policy will make better use of the points system by providing bonus points for applicants with relevant job offers, particularly in regions with skills shortages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EUnited Future is free to choose which legislation it supports in this House, and we chose to support this legislation because it is good legislation, because it is good for New Zealand, and because it has been welcomed by New Zealand business, which United Future will always support. Yes, applications currently in the system from those who do not have a relevant job offer or sufficient points will lapse, and their fees will be refunded. This will not affect those who already have a job-search visa or those whose residency decision is imminent, although the Immigration Service will no longer invite people to apply for a job-search visa in order to get a relevant offer of employment in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe current backlog represents almost 2 years of potential approvals under the general skills category, and although many of these applicants meet the minimum points requirement, only 57 percent in the last year had relevant job offers. Many of those who have applied are already in New Zealand on work permits, or came here to look before they applied. I want again to underline the point that these people will still be free to do this. In fact, their experience in New Zealand would count in their favour should they subsequently receive a job offer and apply for residency. Of the principal applicants approved for residence in 2002-03, 62 percent had previously had a student, work, or visitor permit at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EFrom 1 July, principal applicants must have a job offer relevant to their skills or qualifications. This is entirely consistent with the intent of the Immigration Amendment Bill debated earlier, and ensures that everyone will be treated in the same way. It is also the reason that this bill must go through all stages today\u2014to stop one group of applicants from using the window of opportunity presented by the normal legislative process to get their applications in under the old rules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EMany speakers have already argued about the rapid nature of this change, and the introduction of these bills under urgency. But it must be remembered that the Immigration Amendment Bill has had only its first reading. It will go through the normal select committee process, and there will be further opportunities to debate it in this House. As for the interim bill we are currently debating, given its alignment with the primary bill, United Future believes that the experience over the next few months will greatly inform the select committee about how this shift in policy will work in practice. For example, the committee may want to look at whether the idea of lapsing unsuccessful applicants after 3 months is workable and fair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAnother point to reiterate is that there will be no significant change in the number of people who gain residence here. There is, essentially, a new filter in the application process, because the Government is inviting people to apply, but only the number of applications provided for in the New Zealand immigration programme will be considered. The number remains at 45,000, with 60 percent set aside for skilled immigrants, and this will continue for the next 3 years. If anything, the approvals process will be much faster than it is now, but the total number will remain stable and predictable. This is totally consistent with United Future\u2019s immigration policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ETo conclude, this bill prioritises those currently on the list who already have job offers, rather than those who do not have a job and could end up on the dole. United Future is very pleased to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00225fed8180230647f9b3d7a831cd8c9038\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225fed8180230647f9b3d7a831cd8c9038\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The problem with the previous speaker and his party, and the Government that they support, is that they do not understand that the quota numbers of those who come in are to be more liberal from today than they were 2 years ago. Two years ago, the Government announced the same figures, at 45,000, and it had a plus or a minus alongside them. Today there are no minuses; the same criteria are all pluses. The suggestion that things will be tighter is a total misnomer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe second mistake they make is that they confuse immigration policy with a policy on immigrants. The first one is wise economic and social policy; the second one is how we treat foreigners who come to our country, and there is a world of difference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe third thing is this. Recently a very, very august group called the National Academy of Sciences / National Research Council, in the United States, did a study of immigration into the melting pot called the United States. We have all heard those stories about how good immigration has been for the United States. Who are these people? They are economists, demographers, and sociologists. They are all leading people in their field and hardly anti-immigration. What did they find? On immigration\u2019s effects on wages, the study found that immigration was responsible for 44 percent of the decline in wages that high school dropouts had experienced between 1980 and 1994 in the United States. On immigration\u2019s fiscal impact it found: \u201CImmigration not only affects natives by their presence in the workforce but also affects natives through their consumption of public services. Based on census and other Government survey data, the NRC study concluded that, at the present time, immigrant-headed households consume more in public services than they pay in taxes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThose are facts, not stupid, blind, creeping ideology from a Government that cannot run a sound economy, and so it brings in artificial consumer demand, then boasts how it is bringing in 1.3 percent of our gross domestic product in terms of growth. According to the Government, if it were not for immigrants, we would be going through a serious depression at the moment! I can see why the Minister is saying that, but there never was a Labour Party in the past that would have supported that sort of nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EOn cost versus benefits, the study stated\u2014these are not my words\u2014\u201CWe can now say with some confidence that immigration is not the benefit to the economy that it was once thought to be. While the overall economic impact of immigration is modest, the effect on the unskilled and on taxpayers in high immigration states is substantial. We should therefore change our immigration policy, not because the negative effects are so large for the country as a whole, but because they are so concentrated.\u201D For that, read New Zealand. Members should go to Auckland and look at the huge demand on health services alone, in just one segment. Ten years ago, there were 10 interpreters working for the Auckland health service. Today there are not 10 but 285. Once, 10 years ago, we had a road service in Auckland that could see a person get from the airport to the centre of town in 20 minutes. Now, it takes an hour at the worst times of the day, and it is getting worse by the hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMembers should look at legal aid services and accident compensation costs. Over there sit the Minister of Immigration and the Minister of Finance, and they cannot quantify anything but their feel-good feeling. All of a sudden, because the polls say that less than 16 percent support them on this issue and a massive 82-plus percent do not, but support New Zealand First on the issue, they are panicking and have this knee-jerk reaction. What did Gareth Morgan say? He is hardly a supporter of Winston Peters or New Zealand First. He said in November 2002 that if these trends are maintained\u2014and the policy we have been debating yesterday and today will maintain them\u2014it could take as few as 60 years before the population is effectively totally renewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThose who thought they were coming to a country with a British-M\u0101ori background, with shared cultures and traditions that we have built up for the last 140 years, should forget it. These people are about colonising New Zealand from without with, in the main, people who do not want to speak the language, do not share our system of laws, and do not share our cultures. Today, there are 300,000 people in New Zealand who cannot speak English.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eb93c5f0f3a491dbbf6dc5302dea961\u0022\u003EEdwin Perry\u003C/span\u003E: Labour voters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de05169f6a5946ca9a72101932fe5a3d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It is about social engineering. Mr Morgan went on to say: \u201CMr Peters is quite justified to point out New Zealand is looking at a social and demographic revolution.\u201D Who gave Labour the mandate? No one. Who supports Lianne Dalziel? Nobody. Who supports the policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e8264c5caf64f27840a5ca8d666239a\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f931d51cf6bf4bf3bfdc7ad4d2844013\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about sane, rational people, I say to Mr Swain. I have not included him in it. What sane, rational, informed person supports this policy? Nobody but the \u201CUnited League of Joyboys\u201D, who have no idea how to exercise power, and a gentleman over there from Dunedin, who has been promoted way above his station.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister of Immigration, Lianne Dalziel, was before the Finance and Expenditure Committee this year, she was asked by my colleague whether she was aware of a study prepared by Waikato University. It is fascinating stuff: \u201CJones: Do you accept that, in total, 190,000, including international students, were approved for permanent and temporary residence for the year ended 30 June 2002? Dalziel: How much? Jones: 190,000. Dalziel: No.\u201D There is an old saying that the malady of the ignorant is to be ignorant without knowing it. She starts not even knowing the basic figures. He says again: \u201CDo you accept that 73,800 of that figure were covered by student visas and work permits?\u201D She says\u2014pretty typically, I might add\u2014\u201CI have no idea what you\u2019re talking about.\u201D Mr Jones says: \u201CCan I draw your attention to a well-established report?\u201D, and she says that she does not know about it. He refers to Dr Richard Bedford, Professor of Geography and Deputy Vice-Chancellor (Research) of Waikato University, and Dalziel says, by way of a question: \u201CAnd he says they were granted permanent residence?\u201D. Members should remember what she was asked. She began by saying that she was not aware of that study, but, pages later, we finally get to it. She is asked again: \u201CAre you now aware of it? Dalziel: Permanent residence and temporary entry? Yes.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis is no small matter. They are cancelling the applications of tens of thousands of people. There has been no consultation with anybody, no select committee hearing. This is to be rammed through Parliament in the space of under 24 hours. I say to the people up in the gallery that this was once a country with a grand tradition for honouring the law and for respecting people\u2019s rights. It distinguished us from those dictatorships and autocracies that the world once passed away from, but, today, here is the Labour Party denying people fundamental rights, denying them the fruits of a court case, by retrospectively changing the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI want to say one last thing on this bill. They laugh now, but we have seen the first of three things that we will fix up. It will take us all the way to the next election, and on election night 2005 we will have fixed up them, and the issue, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed5b9a7db07f41ad817ea4180158693c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed5b9a7db07f41ad817ea4180158693c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Let me, first of all, deal with one simple issue. Mr Peters now defines as temporary residents of New Zealand everybody who comes here as a tourist, everybody who comes here as a short-term\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207720e4ee27a452fb51e5fead210626b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253df95858795408b8307af1238e2efa2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, yes. The figure of 190,000 actually includes all those people. It is not the number of people coming into New Zealand for permanent residency. He has everybody frightened about all these numbers of people who happen to be employing large numbers of New Zealanders in hotels and goodness knows what else, up and down the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EBut let us deal with his basic approach. If the rules that he would love to see had applied in this country for the last 160 years, he would not be half the man he is now. Of course, he is only half the man of anyone else in this Parliament, except his own members, anyway.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264fb5102c05441bea38968a6370f81dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022431a090a2a7a46e281c2dba8f0e4eed6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw the second part. The first part is undeniably true. If those rules had applied since 1840, he would be half the man he is now. If the original inhabitants of this country had decided that nobody of a different colour, ethnicity, or culture from those already here was going to come into the country, he would not be trying to pretend he can put on a kilt on occasions during the year and be half-Scottish. And he would finally have to teach himself M\u0101ori for the first time in his life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOf course, if those rules had been applied by whoever was not here in the first place, before M\u0101ori arrived, there would be nobody here. By the logic he has just applied, this economy would be booming without a single person in the country. And if no Europeans had ever been let in, we would have the highest non-literate, non - wheel using economy in the world, because that is the economy that existed before Europeans arrived in New Zealand. And if migrants had never been allowed into the United States, the various Amerindians, the early first peoples of the United States, would, presumably, now be an even more dominant economy in the world than the United States is at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707dd522d7eb48398a0f393ffebe1d2b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek clarification on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022886f656eabaa404887a1ee7f4701bb52\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef4fb4606d65427e9a87db20a71ecb62\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am getting to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229018a1f8a3544fa09b8acc973cd3bc06\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022554840ba42a646ad9dd2b386f1fad3dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: First of all, there was the repeated allegation, which I did not take umbrage at, about someone who was only half a man. The member then depicted M\u0101ori society as non-literate and non - wheel using. I want to make this point: when the member was crawling around the slums of Liverpool, we had a degree of civilisation beyond his wildest dreams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851cec703ba14355b311c7163b8e2ef3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is out of order, and he will cease immediately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224399779d26b3492ab4a252251efab0fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: If I had been crawling around the slums of Liverpool, I would have a far better football team to support than the one I do happen to support, which is a North London football team.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI repeat: if he really believes that a society of our sort would have been better off without immigration, what on earth is he trying to argue? Who seriously believes that in New Zealand these days? What he tells us is that migrants change the nature of a country. Well, that is a real piece of news to discover in the 21st century! Is that a rule we could apply to England in 1066? He would not have tried to fight at the Battle of Hastings; instead, he would have said: \u201CSorry, you are prohibited immigrants. We don\u2019t want to change our society. Throw away your bows and arrows, boys; you\u2019re banned from coming in.\u201D That would be the kind of approach Mr Peters would have taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELooking around at the motley mob that makes up New Zealand First, I say it is about time that we started celebrating diversity in this society, and treasuring even those who do not contribute. I mean, who has ever heard a member of New Zealand First, other than Mr Mark, add anything to Parliament since those members got in here? I assume they are representing the entire population that cannot speak and cannot hear, within this particular Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI want to come to the issue of the rule of law. Every party over there has been pouring sweat for the last week, saying this Government should legislate yesterday\u2014not even tomorrow\u2014to overturn a unanimous Court of Appeal decision to remove property rights. There is a sudden silence now. They are thinking: \u201CWhen did we say that? What were we talking about?\u201D. Recently, there was a unanimous Court of Appeal decision that said that the indigenous people of this country can apply for recognition of their property rights, and those parties said we should legislate to remove those property rights, and overturn a unanimous Court of Appeal decision. Yes, those parties did say that, including those members over on that side who might potentially be beneficiaries of that decision, if I recognise ethnicity correctly. That degree of self-hatred is remarkable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EOf course, what we say is that we should legislate to recognise the rights of the rest of us as well, which is slightly different, so that half of Mr Peters can go to the beach, and half of Mr Peters can have some customary rights derived from his ancestry. He can get on to the beach, probably at about 3 a.m., because I understand that is his normal beach-visiting time, and go fly-fishing\u2014if he can work out by then, in his usual state at 3 a.m., which way round the sea is, and which direction to point in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ELet us come back to this issue. Faced with a decision by one judge that says the current law is not sufficient to implement the Government\u2019s policy\u2014and that is the implication of the decision\u2014Parliament, as the sovereign body, as the highest court in the land, has the right, which it has asserted time after time, and every tax Act is littered with legislation of this sort, to say: \u201CNo, we will stick to the policy, and change the law to fit the policy.\u201D Mr Peters suddenly decides he wants to oppose a bill that does that, and that would actually help his general approach in life; he would rather oppose that policy in order that he can grandstand and say that everybody who is an immigrant is sucking off the body politic of New Zealand, and is contributing nothing to this country\u2014nothing like as much as Mr Paraone, who has been silent on the foreshore and seabed issue; nothing like as much as Mr Perry, who has been silent on the foreshore and seabed issue; and nothing like as much as Mr Gudgeon, who has been silent on the foreshore and seabed issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261bcefd8e94b486db4c71317430f9787\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbf7cda73dd74b55afb83ca6b8480e5f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. He has been allowed to carry on about a whole lot of extraneous matters that are on the parliamentary Order Paper but do not relate to this bill, and he should be told to get back to it or shut up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f866ebbcf16a4700ad7be123cedee196\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just say to the member that I have been listening to a large number of comments about a bill that we have already passed and sent off to a select committee. This bill is a relatively narrow bill, and some members, like his bench mate, have been sticking closely to it, and do know how to do that. A lot of other people in this debate have not, and the member knows that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e77b0c4b52734b2cac9ce1bf4673ec5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: This bill should be passed for one clear reason now established in this debate, and that is to assert clearly that this Parliament is sovereign and judges do not make the law. This Parliament makes the law, not one judge. I say to some members opposite who are rather new and naive in these matters that if we allow, every time a judge makes a decision, that the law is not adequate to implement policy, then we will quickly find not a great deal of policy remaining in place. Secondly, this bill is necessary to avoid administrative confusion and chaos while the first bill goes through the select committee. Finally, this bill helps establish that people will get priority access into New Zealand on the basis of the skills that we want in New Zealand, and nobody opposite seems able to find anything wrong with that particular position. Even Mr Simon Carlaw, who is paid to whinge\u2014that is what he draws his salary to do\u2014has actually said this legislation is good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00225c40c5ca11024ca09289a376f6dad98f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c40c5ca11024ca09289a376f6dad98f\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E That was a very revealing speech, in many aspects, and I will come to some of those. ACT New Zealand certainly supports planned, orderly migration, and we celebrate diversity in this country\u2014that is basic ACT policy. We do not share the somewhat xenophobic views of the Rt Hon Winston Peters. I think the comments that the Leader of the House has just made really highlight a number of issues. He made the comment that half of Mr Peters can enjoy his customary rights, while the other half can eat his haggis and blow his bagpipes. But that really hits the very nerve of the foreshore and seabed debate, which the Leader of the House introduced. We recognise diversity, but say there should be one law for all. We are all New Zealanders, and there should be a single sovereignty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ENo other Government in history has talked about dual sovereignty to the extent that this Government has, running the notion that we will somehow have separate and different rights according to the particular date when one of our ancestors may have arrived here. The reality is that every person in this country is either a migrant or a descendant of a migrant. We can argue about how many generations one might have to go back, but one would only have to go back 30 generations to reach the first settlers in this country, and that is nothing in global terms. We are all migrants or descendants of migrants, and there should therefore be one law for all. We should not have the race-based laws that this Government is constantly bringing to this Parliament. The Leader of the House tripped himself up in quite an extraordinary way in the speech he just gave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EHowever, the real concern with regard to this bill is with the process that has been adopted. This is a panic bill that has been brought to the House as a knee-jerk reaction under urgency, something that has become the trademark of this Government. Every time that this Government thinks it has a little problem, in the wee small hours of the evening it has a panic situation, quickly drafts out legislation, brings it to the House, and tries to rush it through under urgency, with no select committee consideration, no submissions, and not even any consultation. The Minister sat in the chair during the Committee stage, and was proud of the fact that there was no consultation with those who understand this issue best. That is a very arrogant way to bring about legislative change. It always ends in tears, because, inevitably, people get it wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe know\u2014the Minister admitted this\u2014that the Minister first gave drafting instructions for this bill on 23 June. That was only 6 working days ago, which emphasises what a rushed job and knee-jerk reaction this bill is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b6108895902436f938213e86a1a0227\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Stop misleading the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c9e2c316113454f9385758ef1be1623\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am just repeating to the House what she told us in the Committee stage. It is in Hansard, and we can go back to Hansard. The Minister came scurrying back down to the House when we challenged her, and said that only part of it was drafted post-23 June, trying to cover herself. However, that was what she told us in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThere are real concerns here with regard to the retrospective consequences of this legislation. We know what drove the Minister: the immigration consultants took legal action against her. They went to court, and won. When she lost, she put out an announcement that she would appeal. She then thought that rather than go through the courts, she would use her power to legislate and close down the options. In doing so, there is a retrospective impact on some 20,000 applicants, which we are led to believe affects some 46,000 people, all of whom had legitimate expectations. Their expectations are being dashed by this Minister, in her hasty knee-jerk reaction to this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe do want orderly migration. I would not suggest for a moment that the law as it stands is perfect. It is not. The law is in dire need of some reform, but I am not satisfied that the Minister is going about it in the right way. Amending the law in indecent haste, as she is, is certainly not the way to attack that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI am also very concerned about the so-called loading for regional locality. People will somehow be given a special priority if they are prepared to live in Invercargill, Gore, Timaru, or somewhere other than Auckland. We know those sorts of policies do not work; they never work. Families might start off in those places, but if it is their wont, within 3 or 6 months they will be in Auckland. Do members remember the very large numbers of Vietnamese refugees who came to this country\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226846b2d599b140409807eba69a37e9b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As the Rt Hon Winston Peters pointed out, this debate has been too wide. It must come back to this particular bill. I know that reference can be made to the bill that we have already sent off to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, but only reference to it. The member cannot make most of his speech on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229acb26fb709a4ed5bb353d3f09ce32a3\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The point I was making was that the core part of this bill gives a loading according to the proposed location of a potential migrant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244518a875eb9465a816a6c7f646e69d0\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The other bill did that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc7178bde56412a8fc2a33dc156e632\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There is an implication of that in this bill, and that is my point. The effect of that will the same, in terms of what it is replacing, as the effect of the old points system. Be that as it may, the point I make is that most of the Vietnamese and Cambodian migrants who came to this country have since moved on to Sydney or Melbourne. That is the reality, and that is why the earlier bill that this Government brought in today was as equally bad and faulty as this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EPart 2 is the real concern. That concerns the validation of the processing of applications. We see there that any past mistakes, order, or processing of an application that has been messed up, done wrong, or lacks justice is deemed to be valid. Just with the stroke of a pen, clause 5(1)(a) deems it to be valid. However, the situation becomes worse than that, because in clause 5(b) no appeal rights are granted. People cannot appeal, and there is no review process. Any mistakes that the bureaucrats make are deemed to be valid. That is not good legislation. This Minister comes here to the House puffing herself up, crowing what a wonderful job she is doing, and singing her own praises. She has a standard letter that she always brings to the House, and reads out to us time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b3e1f1ea22d480eb71e4e9256d01de7\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: She told us we were wrong in the election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a80039dd05344cf95bb697bace057af\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. She always gets it wrong. Those provisions are of deep concern, as well as the first part of the bill. In common law people can bring a writ of mandamus. Where bureaucrats are not following due process or doing their job, and are sitting on their hands or dragging their feet, citizens have the right to bring to the courts a writ of mandamus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534d2679ed30408699055a847974a701\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not citizens; they\u2019re not even in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3b9cfde0b949da8c51fd114a1928ed\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Not the way this bill reads! It states that any past mistakes or inactions are deemed to be valid\u2014no appeal, and no right of review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fb7b98cdc6a406d903b3f9c0650949a\u0022\u003EHon Maurice Williamson\u003C/span\u003E: There will be one day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282c0182f85d44ef7a1910c142a6e2a66\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There will be one day. When there is a change of Government there will be, and that is not too far away. I would be prepared to place a bet with any member on the Government side of the House on that one. There are no takers on that, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThis is bad legislation. ACT, along with other Opposition parties, will oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b6ad38c0a049c582c67c9ebd3567e9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Good news!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8d41f00f714fb48af9644bcfff36c9\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister thinks that it is good news?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a30940b5e4b4ed09035acf96ca25b31\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is good news that the member has just shown how ridiculous the position of the ACT party is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ad7f83c8e044da4af993a8bffc0edbe\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all! We support good immigration policy. I said at the outset that we support that. This is not good immigration policy. This is a knee-jerk reaction. The Minister panicked 6 days ago, fired out instructions to the bureaucrats to prepare a draft bill, and brought it to the House under urgency, with no select committee consideration and no public submissions. If she truly has confidence in this legislation, why did she not invite public submissions? Why did she not let it go to a select committee? She has not answered those questions. The bill stands condemned by the Minister\u2019s own actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00227a1984d35c7d43db85670ba2e13c7282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a1984d35c7d43db85670ba2e13c7282\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E That was a most extraordinary speech from the low-polling ACT party. First of all, we found out that the ACT party research unit must be down Lambton Quay somewhere, sipping latte away from the Pipitea Street electorate office. Mr Shirley, the deputy leader of the ACT party, spoke to the wrong bill. At the beginning of the debate on the two immigration bills, he said that the ACT party supported the policy intent. During that speech he said that if ACT got into Government, it would reverse the bill. That shows why that member went from being No. 2 on the ACT list to No. 6, and he is falling so fast that he will be applying for immigration status for another country after the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe contribution made by Mr Shirley summed up exactly the Opposition\u2019s approach to this bill. It has not spoken to the issues that have been addressed by the Minister of Immigration, the Hon Lianne Dalziel. We are desperate to make sure that when migrants come to our country, they settle well. We are desperate to make sure that we can match up the skills people have with the needs that we have in our country, so that we make a contribution for the migrant and for New Zealanders. This bill is about making sure that we get proper, robust immigration policy. I congratulate the Hon Lianne Dalziel on her leadership with regard to this bill. It shows why she is right, and the Opposition is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00225c3244ddacaf4b869b1aa8d8a1265309\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c3244ddacaf4b869b1aa8d8a1265309\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are completely opposed to this bill. None of our concerns have been dealt with at all in the explanations from the Minister or the Government members. We have two main issues: firstly, the extraordinary level of discretionary power given to immigration officials, and, secondly, the retrospective stripping of a just process from the applicants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis bill gives the Immigration Service an extraordinary level of discretion, which is way beyond what is needed to fulfil its requirements. The Immigration Service has total discretion over the order and manner of processing applications. That process can change at any time by general instructions given by the chief executive, and, in addition, immigration officials are entitled to follow those instructions but cannot be held to account if they do not follow them. It is entirely inappropriate for a level of discretion such as that to reside in an officer, and for the criteria that govern how applications are to be dealt with to be determined entirely in-house, with no oversight or review by the public. Such a level of individual control over the application of the criteria is unjustifiable, and there has been no explanation at all as to why Immigration Service officers should have such a level of discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EI have been told previously by officials that the reason that much of the immigration process and policy is done through departmental policy, rather than through legislation or regulation, is that it has always been done that way. That is not an acceptable process in a democratic society such as ours. That is not the way that such a serious and important question as immigration should be determined. Immigration has an enormous impact, first, on the tangata whenua of this country, and, second, on the whole of the New Zealand public. It should not be determined outside of public scrutiny, and with no consultation or public discussion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ETo compound the problem of the extraordinary level of discretion is the fact that there is absolutely no opportunity to appeal the use of that power. No applicant is able to hold an immigration officer to account for failing to apply the criteria as he or she had been instructed to do. Officers are not legally required to process applications in any particular manner or order, whether or not that process is consistent with the general instructions given by the chief executive. That means an officer can process an application in accordance with the general instructions or not do so, entirely at his or her own discretion, and there is no means to object to that. There is no control at all in the legislation on the potential use or abuse of those powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EBy their very nature, immigration applicants are in a very vulnerable position, especially if they are from developing countries where English is not necessarily the first language, or are in circumstances that create an environment of urgency for them. In the light of the imbalance in the power relationship between applicants and immigration officers respectively, it is only just that applicants should not be subjected to an unfettered individual discretion over the application of rules that can change mid-application, and without notice. Those circumstances open up the service to very real allegations of corrupt and discriminatory actions. We would have thought that there would at least be protections in the bill to avoid the possibility of such allegations, if only to protect the immigration officials themselves. But there is no such protection, either for the department or for the applicants. That is untenable and unjust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe also object to the automatic lapsing of existing applications, notwithstanding the option for applicants to reapply. That is not the way to deal with the backlog of applications or, more importantly, with the people and the families who are applicants. Those people have, in good faith, met the obligations of the Government immigration policy, paid their money, and are now arbitrarily deprived of a due process. That provision is not necessary. Those people should not be punished for mistakes made by the Government in the allocation of resources to the Immigration Service. We support the principle that applications should be dealt with under the provisions that applied at the time an application was made. In order to prevent the huge rush of applications that occurs when any new policy on immigration is announced, the legislation should have simply stated that the new process applied to any application lodged as of 1 July 2003. That would have ensured that those already in the system were dealt with fairly, while being clear and fair to those who lodge new applications. The Minister intends to refund application fees of about $9 million. That money would be much better spent on dealing with the backlog of applications in a fair and just way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt is with a great deal of frustration and exasperation that we remind the Government, once again, that it has made a very significant decision without any consultation or discussion with M\u0101ori over the issue. Immigration is a fundamental issue of sovereignty and decision making. The Government asserts its right to determine immigration issues as part of the sovereignty it claims through the Treaty of Waitangi and the establishment of the Government. But the treaty was between two parties, and immigration is, and remains, a treaty issue. It may even be described as the first treaty issue, being the process by which new people come to this country. But again, the interests of M\u0101ori have been ignored and undermined. I note also that the whole of the New Zealand public, M\u0101ori and non-M\u0101ori, have been excluded from the process. I want simply to bring to the attention of the public that M\u0101ori have suffered such a level of disregard at all levels in virtually all matters in the legislative process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EImmigration policies should be based on the Government\u2019s obligations under Te Tiriti o Waitangi and on the social and economic needs of the country, addressed in such a way as not to compromise ecological sustainability and the protection of our natural heritage. Such a policy must also be just and transparent, and not merely a means by which to select the elite from other countries. If the Government truly had confidence in this new policy and process, it would not be using the urgency process to push it through. Also, the details of the process would be clear and transparent in the legislation, the powers of officers would be explicitly prescribed, and there would be a right of appeal, in order to protect the human rights of those in the process. Clearly the Government does not have confidence in this legislation, and neither should the New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb85505ec3a04403b85293df90b8ef2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb85505ec3a04403b85293df90b8ef2e\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to have the opportunity to rise in support of this legislation, and I would like to compliment my colleague Lianne Dalziel for the effort and the vision that goes into such a necessary policy change. I think most New Zealanders welcome the sensible prioritisation in relation to the needs of this country of the many thousands of people who are keen to come to it. It is a sad comment also on the attitudes and the personnel involved in the tired old Opposition parties that debates like this become yet another excuse to scratch the sore of bigotry and prejudice. I cannot imagine a better illustration of that than the comments the leader of the New Zealand First Party made just recently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ELike a lot of New Zealanders, I watched a rugby match on Saturday evening. I was substantially moved by the incredible image of Deborah Wai Kapohe singing first \u201CLa Marseillaise\u201D, followed by the New Zealand national song. I cannot imagine a better statement of what this country stands for than that which the NZRFU provided us with on Saturday night. I regret that so many members of this House cannot take the opportunity to celebrate what this country represents, in terms of its ethnic diversity. They should get on with the job, and leave their tired old bigotry and prejudice at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022993fd66f11e44a4fa56002692466303f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022993fd66f11e44a4fa56002692466303f\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister would have us believe that this is a relatively minor bill that is being passed under urgency to facilitate a wider package of immigration changes that for some unknown reason were announced late yesterday afternoon. Significant changes are contained in the other bill, which I make only passing reference to, as I know the Standing Orders permit, but the relationship between these two bills is important, and there has been some dispute, it is fair to say, about that matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Government says it is moving away from a system that is based on points, solely, to one that will see New Zealand\u2019s labour market needs met by way of immigration. That is a significant shift. It takes us back to a policy that we have seen before in this country, which relies heavily on the ability of Ministers and officials to understand what is happening in the marketplace. I have grave concerns, although I will approach that matter, which is now before a select committee, with an open mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIn relation to this measure I say that it has been completely misrepresented to the House by the Minister who has presented it. This bill has nothing to do with a meaningful reform of the immigration system in this country. It has everything to do with saving the political backside of a Minister and some officials who did not see some inevitable consequences, who did not make some decisions that they should have made, and who are finally now asking this Parliament, under cover of urgency, to tidy up what they know they can tidy up no other way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ETo recount the history of this matter\u2014and it has been adverted to on more than one occasion in the Committee stage\u2014this bill really has its origins in the fact that the Minister of Immigration and the Government that has been in place for 4 long years did nothing to confront significant changes in relation to the immigration market. They did nothing to fine-tune by way of the annual plan, or any other measure, the points system in a significant way, or make any other significant adjustments that would have avoided some of the problems that have now occurred. Because the problem became large and because the number of applications was substantial, and because the political heat came on to the Minister, the Government decided to do something, and it panicked. In a sheer act of panic we saw some changes made that touched the implementation of the English language test. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThose changes were challenged by a group in the High Court of New Zealand. The High Court, in the form of Justice Randerson, found in a judgment issued on 16 May this year that the Minister had no lawful base for making some of the decisions she encouraged the Government to make. That was a pivotal time for the Minister. Dr Cullen made a fair point when he said that this Parliament should not surrender to the courts the ability to make policy decisions. So when faced with that decision by the High Court, the Minister had an opportunity to come back to the Parliament and say: \u201CLook, this Act of Parliament, which was promoted by the previous Government and supported by most major parties in this Government, does not do what the legislature thought it was doing when it passed the bill. I am asking the political parties assembled here to give some thought to putting in place in black and white the law as we thought the law to be at the time.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dffa79bd4bd147e182e4bca510bfd6f5\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: And you would have agreed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229dede071bf84f338bd1f4d69da18f0c\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I would have given that very serious consideration. Quite frankly, I accept Dr Cullen\u2019s point. This Parliament should not surrender to the courts the ability effectively to make the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be24a9bd772c476482831970485ce62b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You don\u2019t even know what the decision says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da0a4e3c5e444b92baa270c3f3f59c8f\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I have read the decision. I have it right here. The Minister should know that my reading of the decision was completely different from hers. I never thought that she had a hope in hell of getting the Court of Appeal to turn over that judgment. I never thought for a minute that she would succeed in the Court of Appeal, so it was with some surprise that I saw the press release dated 17 June in which the Minister of Immigration said that she was off to the Court of Appeal. Having had the judgment of Justice Randerson from 16 May to 17 June, the Minister did not approach the Opposition parties to say: \u201CHey, let\u2019s make the law do what we all thought the law was going to do when we passed it.\u201D No, she said that the High Court was wrong, that she was off to the Court of Appeal, and here is the press release dated 17 June. I thought that the Minister was wrong then. The Minister now thinks the Minister was wrong. Barely 2 weeks later the Minister is in this Parliament promoting a bill through all its stages under urgency asking us to do what the High Court would not do on 16 May, and what she now knows the Court of Appeal would not do after she had taken the appeal that she said on 17 June she was going to take to the Court of Appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to answer a question that I have asked numerous times and that she should have answered. What did she think was happening in relation to this bill when she put out that press release and gave media briefings on 17 June? To any reasonable observer, that press release and the media comments she provided would suggest that the Government was fully confident that the law stated what the Minister thought it stated and she was very happy to go down the appeal process. I find it difficult to accept that on 17 June the Minister had not turned her mind to the very real probability that she would have this No. 2 bill come to the House and go through all stages, and that she had not turned her mind to the possibility that this bill might contain the provisions that effectively override Justice Randerson\u2019s decision. If the Minister did have those matters in her mind, anybody who believed what she said in that press release, or in her media briefing, would be entitled to feel totally misled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI simply say that this bill is all about saving the Minister\u2019s backside. In the course of doing so, it is prejudicing the interests of a large number of people who will now feel that they have been dealt with dishonourably by the New Zealand Government. The issue is not whether they are all people who should have residence in New Zealand, the question is whether those people who are entitled to deal with the New Zealand Government and make such an application can expect to be dealt with in a reasonable, predictable, and fair manner. I am concerned that the more widespread signal sent by the way in which the Government has dealt with this legislation is that the best migrants in the world who have a full menu of choices available will say that New Zealand is just too hard and too complicated, and that one might apply on one basis and be dealt with under some completely different basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I am pleased that those matters have moved not just the National Party, but the ACT party, the New Zealand First Party, and the Greens in a united way. They have kicked the tyres on the detail of the bill, asked the questions, and, having found the Minister\u2019s explanations thoroughly unconvincing, I hope that they will all decide to oppose it at this third reading stage. I also have to say that the United Future party, which seems happy to do any old deal any old day to keep the Government happy, promised fairness in its policy and preached the need for consistency in dealing with those matters. United Future members should now hang their heads in shame, because they have participated in a truly shabby exercise in this Parliament. This bill deserves to be tested by the Parliament properly on the way through. I thank all the Opposition parties for the way in which they have gone about that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef3259a7d574cc7996daea88ddb9868\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef3259a7d574cc7996daea88ddb9868\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call on the third reading of the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2). I begin by acknowledging the Hon Lianne Dalziel for the courage and commitment it has taken for this particular Minister to step up to the mark and deal with the vexed issues of immigration in this country. What she has put out there for us to consider, and which has been debated over the past hours, has been controversial in the arguments that have been put from across the House. Suffice to say that this bill will bring greater clarity, and certainty I might add, to migrants coming to New Zealand hoping that their skills and the intelligence that they bring to share with this nation are matched more certainly towards job opportunities in skills shortage areas we have in this country. That is at least one provision in this particular legislation that is good for New Zealanders and good for migrants who are coming here. I conclude by saying again that compliments and credit should be given to this Minister for facing the tough issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5b5430bb3f34b05b5d6f1e1e1037595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5b5430bb3f34b05b5d6f1e1e1037595\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is very evident that the preceding Labour member has not read this bill, because the very point she referred to is not contained in this bill. It may be contained in the bill that has been referred to the select committee, but it is not in this bill. New Zealand First, as the party that has long supported the immigration to New Zealand of skilled immigrants, will be looking closely at that bill. However, the question of skilled immigrants coming to New Zealand is not the issue in this bill. This bill contains other issues altogether. It seems to me very clear that most Labour members have not understood this bill. There is some spin in the explanatory note that confused me for some considerable time until I went through this bill line by line. The statement there is, and I quote: \u201CGlobal prioritisation will enable residence applicants with, for example, high contribution and settlement potential to be given early consideration.\u201D, etc., etc. Really, nothing in this bill talks about that. That might be in the bill that has gone to the select committee, but I suggest that it is not in this bill, and New Zealand First will be looking very closely at that other one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EPart 1 of this particular bill has an extraordinary clause that is almost meaningless; it is so wide and so broad that it shows how the Minister has failed in her job in 4 years or so as Minister of Immigration. Imagine any other Minister in any other Government coming to this Parliament and admitting that after all the time she had been in office her decisions had been overturned by the High Court, and then having the temerity to bring a bill into this Parliament to overturn that decision in less than 24 hours! We have been debating this bill for less than 24 hours now, and in less than 24 hours this minority Labour Government will overturn a High Court decision that, one would assume, the Government was willing to abide by in the first place, which is why it went there; but the Government having\u2014not surprisingly\u2014lost the case, we now hear from the Minister in the Committee stage that clause 3 seems to be the clause that will overturn the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E When one reads section 13B(1A) inserted by clause 3, it states: \u201CTo avoid doubt, any policy of the Government that relates to the issuing of any type of temporary visa or limited purpose visa or the granting of any type of temporary permit or limited purpose permit is not Government residence policy, regardless of whether the issuing of the visa or the granting of the permit may affect eligibility for or otherwise relate to the issuing of a residence visa or the granting of a residence permit.\u201D What is meant by\u2014\u201CTo avoid doubt, any policy of the Government\u201D, etc? What the Government is virtually trying to say is that anything it has said that is Government policy is Government policy, even though it may be wrong, even though it may not have the support of the court. It seems to me that, to give effect to this clause, the Government will have to take one more step somewhere in the executive area to say just what is meant by new subsection (1A) in clause 3, otherwise we will be back to court again to find out just what that amendment to section 13B of the Act actually means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EEssentially, it means that the rule of law does not apply for this minority Labour Government. It will arbitrarily overturn the decision of a court. That is what the rule of law is all about\u2014for Governments not to act arbitrarily. There could be nothing more arbitrary than the way in which this Government has acted in this legislation. It should be ashamed of itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI turn to clause 4 about the chief executive giving general instructions as to the order and manner of processing applications for visas and permits\u2014nothing to do with globalisation that I can fully understand. Clause 4 will allow the order and manner to be determined at the direction of a visa officer or immigration officer. So our office in Delhi can decide. Some official there\u2014a visa officer or an immigration officer in Delhi\u2014can decide who, on its priority list, comes to New Zealand. If it has 5,000 applications in Delhi, applications going back for 12 months, that visa officer could decide to put the one that has just been received, to the top of the pile, or the one that was received a month ago, to the top of the pile. Do members not think that that would be a bit suspicious? Do they not think that in a place like Delhi suspicion will be cast on the way in which a visa got to the top of the pile, or moved its way up the ladder? We all know how corrupt that part of the world is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat about Teheran? What would happen there in moving a visa application up to the top of the pile? We know, for example, and New Zealand First has made this point time and time again, that the best way to get a visa in New Delhi is to see the chap under the tree outside the New Zealand High Commission\u2014a few appropriate rupees, and the visa is yours. We have given many examples of that to the Government, as to how in New Delhi that is the best way, the quickest way, to get a visa to come to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Government is going to allow immigration officials all around the Pacific, the Philippines, and suchlike\u2014offices where we have had problems in the past\u2014to be encouraged to adopt this process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI move on in a complementary sort of way to clause 5, \u201CPast order and manner of processing applications deemed valid\u201D. It states that any failure by a visa officer or an immigration officer is deemed to have been validly done. Even if the officer issues a visa that is contrary to all Government policy, even if the process is finalised and the person comes to New Zealand under that sort of basis, it is deemed to be validly done. The Minister cannot overturn it, the authority cannot overturn it, the tribunal cannot overturn it, the court cannot overturn it. In fact, by looking at this, one could say that any terrorist who wanted to come to New Zealand from Afghanistan or from Iraq could, if the person could get the cooperation of the visa clerk at Delhi or Teheran, get into New Zealand and be here validly, as a result of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI suspect that Government members do not understand this legislation. The last time we had a case like this was with the port and sherry tax, and when that bill was introduced into the House we were told that that tax was aimed at the young drinker\u2014the person who drinks all these fancy drinks. We were told they were 15-plus percent and suchlike. It turned out that the young drinker drank alcohol that was closer to 5 percent, and was not affected by the tax, which is for fortified drinks over 14 percent. In fact, the elderly drinker who has the occasional port and sherry was hit by that tax. It was only after we had spent a considerable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896cd287e9b349ffb2bd361b2d13c8bc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d65e9daf7534ceab8cbd814c1d2fa70\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014amount of time deliberating on it, that we discovered that mistake. That is just a comparison. Just as the Government was totally at sea on that one, so on this issue the Government is totally at sea. It does not seem to realise what it is it has done under this bill. It is leaving it wide open for people to come into New Zealand under this sort of regime whereby the local visa officer, the local immigration officer, can make the permit available, and there is no appeal from that decision, because this legislation says so. I suspect that it will not be terribly long before this legislation is back before the House again to be amended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI will not say much about clause 6; that has been covered a lot with regard to speeches from other members of the House, and the Court of Appeal decision. But as far as New Zealand First is concerned, this bill does nothing to bring skilled immigrants into this country. All this bill does, as I have said, is overturn a court decision, and somehow give visa officers extraordinary powers\u2014powers that are then validated by this legislation itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThere is the issue of, for example, the matter raised in the Dominion Post today about people being able to come into New Zealand based on changes of policy, and suchlike. The article stated that the changes could also benefit foreign tertiary students, including many from China, and the Minister had indicated they would get priority, especially if they had a job offer. As I see it, that applies to the other bill that is before the select committee; and obviously Parliament will see how that works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis is a very, very sad day for parliamentary democracy in New Zealand. It is a day on which the Minister of Immigration has been shown up as an absolute failure. In any reasonable Government in any British Westminster system she would have resigned. We are seeing a situation whereby, in less than 24 hours, the \u201Cfastest legislator in the West\u201D once again\u2014that is the title of this Parliament\u2014is trying to rectify the failure of the Government, the failure of the Minister, and is leaving the door wide open, in my view, to corruption and also to allowing terrorists and other undesirable people to come to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002238a5af5c086b48d780850ebe8a7d139c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222de5fc708f37429b95f9b8581e6e419c\u0022\u003EBorder Security Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225741eb973ea64b748bbc5f4dd6795e13\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce15c214dc094974a2ccbd9a5a43ae60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce15c214dc094974a2ccbd9a5a43ae60\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Border Security Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time, I intend to move that this bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee for consideration. To consider this bill, one has to go back to a long day 21 months ago. We in New Zealand woke to the news of September 11 2001, seeing images of hijacked passenger planes crashing into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York, the Pentagon, and into a field in Pennsylvania. More than 3,000 people lost their lives. On that tumultuous day, we all knew that something fundamental had changed in our world. We knew there would be fall-out from these acts of terrorism. We did not know the nature or shape of this changed new world, but we knew we would come to understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe recent bombings in Bali also brought terrorism home to our region. Terrorism is no longer remote; it is in our neighbourhood. Within the last month we have seen renewed terrorist activity in Saudi Arabia and Morocco, both linked to international terrorist organisations. Here in New Zealand we cannot continue to believe that the world\u2019s largest moat will protect us, nor can we ignore our responsibilities as good international citizens. We too must respond to this changing world, to ensure our own safety, to ensure the safety of our fellow citizens around the world, and to ensure the continued flow of trade\u2014the future of our economy depends on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E That brings me to the detail of the Border Security Bill, which will enhance our border security against terrorism. This bill sits alongside the Counter-Terrorism Bill in strengthening the legislation protecting New Zealanders and New Zealand\u2019s interests. The Counter-Terrorism Bill is already before a select committee. Since September 11, 2001, international bodies have been advocating tighter border control measures and agreed standards. A key aspect of these standards is early and timely access to information for the purposes of managing the risk that people, planes, ships, boats, and goods may pose as a terrorist risk. Early access to information is critical. We are now focused on preventing risk, and to do that we need to do our homework. That means we need good information in advance about people, craft, and goods that are heading our way. We need enough time to analyse this information and, if need be, determine an appropriate response. Currently this information is either not supplied or is supplied manually, which does not allow for adequate checking in a timely manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Border Security Bill amends the Customs and Excise Act and the Immigration Act as they affect border security. In summary, the changes will improve the security of global travel and trading environments, enhance closer security relationships within the trade supply chain and travel network, strengthen the gathering of and sharing of intelligence, and ensure better use of information to assess risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI will now detail how this new security enhancement will affect travellers. There are two elements to the travel information sharing provided for in this legislation. Firstly, airlines and cruise ship operators will be required to use electronic means to submit passport details for passengers, in-transit passengers, and crews in advance of their arrival or departure from New Zealand. Many are already providing much of this information voluntarily. The full implementation of the legislation will mean that passport and visa details will be checked automatically against electronic records held by the New Zealand Immigration Service. Any matches will trigger an advisory back to the airline about whether a person should be allowed to embark for New Zealand. This form of data screening is the best way to reduce New Zealand\u2019s exposure to risk from people travelling here while, at the same time, maintaining the high flows of arrivals into New Zealand at any one time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe number still staggers me\u2014almost 1.9 million people visited New Zealand in 2001-02, and the number is still increasing. The vast majority of those people are genuine travellers who deserve a warm welcome and speedy processing. However, we must be able to identify those who are not welcome. Waiting until those travellers actually arrive here to check them out is just not good enough. It is better to deal with the problem before it gets here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe second and equally important aspect of travel - information gathering analysis in this legislation is the provision for the Customs Service to electronically access the computerised passenger booking systems of travel operators and their agents. These provisions have been carefully developed to enable the New Zealand authorities to have access to information that gives us vital clues to identifying those persons who pose a risk, without jeopardising the privacy of legitimate travellers. These measures will affect some 20 international airlines, all cruise ship operators providing services into and out of New Zealand, and other travel operators. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThis bill is not a bolt out of the blue for those it will affect, as there has been considerable consultation. Airlines around the world are responding to similar legislation from other countries. Here in New Zealand, Air New Zealand has led the voluntary compliance, and all the airlines are now providing the information voluntarily. I want to put on record my appreciation to the airlines for their excellent cooperation in protecting New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EI now refer to security as it affects cargo. It is vital to New Zealand\u2019s economy to keep trade flowing smoothly, and in the new international environment our trading partners expect New Zealand exports to be not only of high quality and on time but also safe from terrorist infiltration. Again, information is key to achieving this. The legislation enables the Customs Service to electronically access the computerised cargo management systems of operators in the supply chain, such as freight forwarders and consolidators. The bill also establishes a legislative environment for an innovative new partnership approach to providing assurance over export security. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe Customs Service is developing a secure export partnership scheme whereby the Government and business work together to protect New Zealand\u2019s interests. This will enable the Customs Service to assure trading partners that goods exported under the scheme are packed securely and with no other goods. The goods will then be placed, without interference, under a customs security seal and conveyed to a customs-controlled area for export. The intention is that the goods with the New Zealand Customs Service security seal will then be regarded by overseas customs administrations as low-risk, therefore minimising inspection, disruption, or delay. Central to the scheme is the authority to allow an exporter to apply a customs-approved seal to that company\u2019s shipping container. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThere is also a separate provision for an approved person, such as a customs officer, to apply a seal in circumstances where the goods have been packed under supervision, or inspected by the officer. It will also show that when the cargo is sealed, it is secure\u2014that is, the cargo contains only what is declared and secured in an approved way. It will also assist in identifying any interference or tampering with secured cargo. Goods shipped with these seals will be legally regarded as being under customs control, therefore making it an offence to tamper with them. It would be up to individual exporters as to whether they participate in the secure exports partnership, and I know that many would find it in their best interests to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThere are other issues at risk for us, as well. In this legislation the Customs Service is looking to have increased powers to detain people at remote locations. There have been a number of occasions when customs officers and others have come across situations in which these powers are appropriate and indeed highly desirable. New Zealand wants to be sure that the people entering New Zealand are doing so entirely legitimately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe bill also has provisions that will give the Customs Service the lawful right to detain and hold cash or other funds that would be crossing the border for what appears to be no immediate legitimate purpose. Criminals and terrorists need to fund their activities with money, and we have adequate checks in the banking system but we have inadequate checks at this time about money coming across the border. Under this legislation, customs officers will be able to detain people or the cash for a period of up to 12 hours, or longer where it is warranted, to ensure that there is no security risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I note that currently with the United States, one of our major trading partners, we have $4 billion of exports. For the United States it is now important for us to make sure that we meet its security requirements, and that the US feels comfortable about those security requirements. The Customs Service is moving rapidly to meet those demands. It is worth noting that Auckland is our largest port with the US\u2014it is No. 78 on its list\u2014and we have many other smaller ports. So if we are to be able to ensure that trade flows easily from all our ports in New Zealand to the United States, we need to have this legislation to ensure that we are able to give to the US customs service the sorts of guarantees and notices of comfort that it needs to enable our goods to travel across the border unimpeded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders living overseas have come home to New Zealand in great numbers because they feel safe and secure in New Zealand, and this legislation will help underline that secure feeling that New Zealanders have when they live here in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u002234873db708b4499e91f76a1b4c00afc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234873db708b4499e91f76a1b4c00afc6\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I signal at the outset the intention of National members to vote for this bill so that it is read a first time and referred to a select committee for further consideration. I also thank the Minister for providing me with some detailed briefing material, and also for giving me a personal briefing this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d030cda19a4830991ffb4fffc283e3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s the way it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b65a14dac784ca299d7ef3e63fb218f\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I think, as Mr Ryall observes, that perhaps the Minister\u2019s colleague the Minister of Immigration would benefit from some tutoring by the Minister of Customs, Mr Barker, who does understand that Opposition parties here on matters of national importance are happy to provide their cooperation and support. I appreciated the written briefing and the courteous personal briefing the Minister provided to me about the contents of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Border Security Bill makes significant amendments to the Customs and Excise Act. That is legislation that I have had some passing association with. I was for 5 years the Minister of Customs, and indeed the Minister when a major revamp of that bill was passed. I can say from my own background understanding of this matter that this bill will benefit from some select committee study. The amendments to the Customs Act contained in the bill are, indeed, in parts quite complex, and I would be surprised if, on close scrutiny, there were not some improvements made. That is not a criticism of the bill, it is simply an observation about the huge complexity of the parent Act, and the great difficulty and sensitivity of dealing with some of the matters that this bill purports to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI want to turn to the various component parts of the legislation before making some more general observations. The travel security provisions of the bill are, indeed, significant because they put in place a mandatory provision of advanced electronic information. Some members of the public who are listening in, and certainly some members of the House, will be asking themselves just what the \u201CAPI\u201D\u2014the advanced passenger information system\u2014is all about. It is, in fact, not a new feature of the Customs Service at all. This is a regime that has operated on a voluntary basis now for some years. It involves the airlines cooperating fully with the Customs Service, giving the ability for pre-clearance, and giving the ability to identify areas of risk, and in that way ensuring that there is minimal disruption to the travel plans of law-abiding members of the public. It is a very important tool for avoiding major queues at airport gateways like Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Customs Service to my knowledge has been a very efficient promoter of this type of facility in the past, and will be well placed to deal with the mandatory regime that is proposed in this bill. I say to members here that I personally can see no reason that the requirement for a mandatory advanced passenger information system would cause offence to anyone. I am sure the airlines are well equipped to deal with it, and have as much to gain as the members of the travelling public and the agencies of the New Zealand Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThere will be some provisions that relate to accessing the databases of travel operators and airlines that will no doubt raise important issues of privacy and sensitivity. I sense from some of the briefing material that there have been some New Zealand Bill of Rights Act discussions, potentially some of the fairly vigorous kind around the preparation of this bill, and I particularly draw the attention of the select committee to those areas. Again it is a consequence of dealing with legislation of this sort that those kinds of issues arise\u2014initially in the officials interaction and then in the Cabinet committee process. It is important that the Parliament, separately in the select committee, and then in the Committee of the whole House, tests that sort of area because there are conflicting rights at issue and at play in that regard. Although we might benefit from the view of the Ministry of Justice and Crown Law Office officials, it is important that Parliament makes its own call about the extent to which the rights of individuals or organisations to privacy need to be balanced against the greater need for security purposes for agencies of the Crown to have access to certain information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI offer no steer to the House or to the select committee on that matter today. I simply say that this smells to me very much of there having been some interaction between officials on New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues, and I simply hope that parliamentarians will separately give their attention to this important area of scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe supply chain security provisions, which the Minister referred to, are critical. I would go so far as to say that if these provisions were not to be passed with some expedition, then New Zealand exporters to the United States market would pay a heavy price indeed. Again the select committee, I am sure, will want to give some thought to the detail contained in the bill. But here we are driven by the expectations, and indeed requirements, of the American authorities that in the post - September 11 environment, which the Minister referred to, require those who want to do business with the United States to jump a pretty high security hurdle. I for one do not blame them for that. It will no doubt cause New Zealand exporters and others who trade or deal with the United States some ongoing inconvenience. But the United States has good reason for making these requirements of us, and I think that the initiative contained in this part of the bill is a good attempt to put in place something that the United States authorities should find very reassuring indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI observe in passing at this point that members of the New Zealand public would probably have little understanding to the extent to which the Customs Service has over the years invested massively in the construction of close working relationships with its partner organisations in other jurisdictions. I venture to suggest that at a time like this, in a climate of suspicion and in a climate of high security fear, the New Zealand Customs Service relationships with many of those services in other jurisdictions will leave New Zealand significantly better placed to deal with those challenges than most other nations. So I suggest that the provisions in that part of the bill are very important to New Zealand as a trading nation, and I suspect that it will benefit from the close working relationships that the Customs Service has built up over the years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI turn finally to enforcement provisions. These do give some new powers to customs officers. Again I hope that the select committee will look carefully at these areas. They are areas in which Parliament should extend the powers made available to Crown agencies only with great care and after very serious consideration. I am bound to say in principle that I think these extensions are required. I guess as a simple example I look at the programme run around the New Zealand coastline by the New Zealand Customs vessel, The Hawk, which ventures very far from the shore and very far from other law enforcement authorities. There will increasingly be times when, encountering terrorists, contraband smugglers, or others who are seeking to breach the law, customs officers will find themselves having to deal with this threat alone. The current law simply makes no provision for them to be able to deal with some of the threat in this area by detaining individuals. They can merely deal with goods. The proposals that the Minister has put before this House in this bill should be looked at carefully and considered carefully, but on balance I think they are needed. It is unrealistic to see customs officers doing the job that we ask of them in this environment, without providing some additional legal support for them in carrying out that work. So we will be supporting this bill to the select committee. I think there are important features of it, and I hope that much good will come from it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002254b7d7135b3b49a5b7caab840a9fd4cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254b7d7135b3b49a5b7caab840a9fd4cc\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased on behalf of United Future to speak to this first reading of the Border Security Bill. Sadly, since 11 September 2001, we live in a world that overall is less secure than at any time since World War II between 1939 and 1945. The shock and horror of the twin towers collapsing in New York, an aeroplane crashing into the Pentagon in Washington, and a fourth plane brought to ground before it could reach its intended destination, the White House, represented the greatest breach of border security in the history of the United States. We watched with a mixture of awe and horror as the massive towers of the World Trade Center collapsed, and in the memorable words of Mayor Guiliani of New York, \u201Cthe losses were more than we can bear.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E Sadly, however, these acts of international terrorism have proved not to be isolated events. In October 2002 they also arrived in our hemisphere via the tragic bombing in Bali. In the months and years since, the nations of the world, and, in particular, the nations of Europe and the Americas\u2014particularly the USA\u2014have expended literally billions of dollars in an effort to tighten their border security. It has been necessary for New Zealand to follow suit; hence this Border Security Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI would like to compliment the Minister, the Hon Rick Barker, and his officials on the thorough, common-sense, and relatively low-cost solutions they have come up with in relation to the export of goods from New Zealand to the USA and other countries. The cost, for example, of x-raying the more than one million containers that leave our shores each year would be a massive and further blow to our international competitiveness. After all, with perhaps the exception of Australia, we already face the greatest average distance of any nation in delivering to our many overseas markets. If we are to maintain and enhance our market share, continuing efforts must always be made to reduce costs whenever we can. Accordingly, the certification of supply-chain security for low-risk exports by an approved customs seal provides a workable and cost-efficient answer to the new requirements placed upon New Zealand and all other nations as a result of the increased terrorism security risk, which is now, unfortunately, part of our world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EExporters and transport operators may, nevertheless, chafe and grizzle a bit about the new requirements. That is only human, but the reality is that from now on it will be a case of either complying with these arrangements, or risking kissing goodbye to the exports themselves. As time goes on, we may find some advantages in the new supply-chain security certification process, because right now we very often have no idea of what is in containers. I can see a lot of advantages flowing to society in general when it becomes known\u2014and we have a system in place that ensures that we actually do know\u2014what is in each and every individual container shipped throughout our country, and through our wharves to overseas destinations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe enhanced border-secured immigration risk measures contained in this bill are also timely. New programmes have been written and electronic records developed that will enable customs and immigration officials to gain advance information on people intending to fly to New Zealand, whether they are coming as immigrants or as visitors. Of course, the way in which terrorists and other undesirables would normally reach our shores would be precisely as visitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI have some small concerns about the possible costs involved in providing that information. For example, the cost of that new technology could be up to $80,000 for airlines, and up to $1 million for customs. For pre-boarding checks, airlines are looking at a bill of up to $100,000, and for customs, the cost is estimated to be $21 million over a 5-year period, of which about half will be recouped from immigration fees. In that connection, I would like to ask the select committee that considers the bill to look carefully at whether the mix is right between costs lying where they fall and assistance through Vote Customs to ensure that those security measures are put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI have no doubt that we must put these new measures in place. It is sobering to recall that all of the terrorists who participated in the atrocities of September 11 were legally in the USA. The reality is that New Zealand has no choice but to utilise all of the new information technologies, with the goal of preserving and enhancing the security of our borders. We can make no other choice if we claim to be delivering responsible Government to the people of New Zealand. One of the highest and first obligations of Government, after all, is the security of its own citizens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ENormally, people come to New Zealand on regularly scheduled commercial flights or ocean-going ships. Since we are an island nation, however, we are also at risk of people arriving here on small craft, fishing boats, and the like. Indeed, it is interesting to recall that the only terrorism to occur within New Zealand in recent times, which was related to the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior, involved the use of yachts and other small vessels. For small craft and other means of non-scheduled transport, the bill therefore moves towards tightening up current procedures and practices. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EThe United Future caucus had just one reservation about this bill. It was referred to also by the Hon Murray McCully, and it concerns the sections relating to the detention of suspected persons by customs for up to 12 hours. In that connection, I note also that the Bills Digest, issued by the Parliament Library, expresses similar reservations. Accordingly, we would specifically request that the select committee give careful consideration to those provisions, balancing the need for stronger border security, on the one hand, with the civil liberties of individuals, on the other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EUnited Future is happy to support this bill at its first reading, and its referral to a select committee for further examination. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7ff07dd2e394067a6491afb4ae9bc7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7ff07dd2e394067a6491afb4ae9bc7e\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The intent of this bill has merits, and New Zealand First will support this legislation going to the select committee. Our border security is very important, and any effort to strengthen that security will gain our support. The purpose of this bill is to amend the Customs and Excise Act and the Immigration Act, in order to enhance border security and improve the information processes of the New Zealand Customs Service and the New Zealand Immigration Service. The improvement of information available for tracking the movement of people prior to their arrival, using advanced electronic information about arrival and departure passengers, craft, and crew\u2014provided that it is used correctly\u2014will surely provide an additional screen against those posing a threat to our people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First\u2019s major concern is that there is no record of many of the people who have already arrived in New Zealand. The Minister of Immigration has no idea how many people have arrived in the last 12 months. I refer to the previous bill just debated in this House\u2014the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), and its big sister, the Immigration Amendment Bill. The immigration figures used by the Minister, Lianne Dalziel, in support of those bills bear no resemblance to the figures she has used previously to deflect New Zealand First\u2019s argument for a reduction in the number of immigrants coming into this country. The select committee must examine the contents of all three of these bills to ensure that they are completely compatible, and to take into account the continued failure of the Minister of Immigration to account for current immigration, and the real purpose of a number of the people coming into this country. New Zealand First has serious concerns with regard to the immigration aspect of this bill, and asks that the select committee examine it very carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EEnabling Customs to access databases held by travel operators, in order to search for information about travel additional to that provided under advanced passenger information, might well contravene the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, but it might also result in members of the public refusing to provide operators with travel information. I refer particularly to the information provided to the travel industry and travel agents. The select committee should also look at those processes to make sure they are compatible with existing law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI would now like to look at the amendments relating to the Customs and Excise Act\u2014in particular, at those dealing with the security-of-supply chain. The Government\u2019s briefing paper indicated that a key driver to this section is the ability of New Zealand to respond effectively to the United States container-security initiatives. Exporters may consent to the application of a Customs seal to export packages, including containers, or enter a Secure Exports Partnership scheme with Customs. Both of these mechanisms are voluntary on the part of the exporter, with benefits accruing, such as improved protection from pillaging. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThis information is in the papers we received from the Government just prior to this reading of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe system, and this bill as it stands, do not take into account the new bioterrorism import rules of the United States. Under that country\u2019s Public Health Security and Bioterrorism Preparedness and Response Act of 2002, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires the owner, the operator, or the agent in charge of foreign facilities to submit a registration with the FDA, including the name and address of each facility at which, and the trading name under which, the registrant conducts business, and the categories of foods handled by those facilities. This means that each New Zealand packer will have to register separately for each exporter and supplier, obtaining a unique registration number for each individually. In other words, all packing houses will have to register with the Food and Drug Administration, all the growers and suppliers they receive goods from, and they will be required to provide this information prior to shipping to the USA. They will have to have a separate registration for every exporter they use. All trucking operators carrying export goods will have to register. Customers clearing product in the USA will incur extra costs, and this can only affect growers\u2019 returns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe preamble to this bill already acknowledges that it will increase compliance costs for businesses, but I am certain that the Government has not considered the additional compliance cost overall, and the ultimate effect it will have on our exports as a whole. The select committee must consider the additional requirements of our trading partners, ensure that we minimise the overall effect on our exports, and work with the industries to ensure that New Zealand exports are not adversely disadvantaged. To allow our exports to be disadvantaged will result in us being uncompetitive in the marketplace, and if we are not very careful, and if this bill does not get it right, New Zealand may find itself shut out of many markets. Earlier this year, we were shut out of markets because of our actions. Let us not add to that by adding problems within this bill. I ask whoever is going to handle it in the select committee to make sure they examine these aspects, and the aspects of all our trading partners, to make sure we do have it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u0022f74ecf46e60c4a86b47b681036efc194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f74ecf46e60c4a86b47b681036efc194\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak to the Border Security Bill, which is part of the whole-of-Government approach towards strengthening New Zealand\u2019s national security and maintaining our good reputation as clean, green, safe, and secure. This bill addresses global concerns about security, and introduces four major sets of provisions, addressing travel security, supply-chain security, law enforcement, and immigration matters. This bill will be good for New Zealand, and I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2382a69e4a24fa68833714367bfca84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2382a69e4a24fa68833714367bfca84\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak\u2014rather unexpectedly, I might add\u2014on this bill. As one of the few members from an agrarian background in this House, I believe no other issue affects this country and its farmers\u2014the productive sector, as I will call it\u2014as much as border security, in terms of both coming into and going out of the country. We need to ensure that our product, which is the best in the world, is not contaminated by a terrorist activity or even by an inadvertent activity, and of course we need to inspect the product coming into this country in order to make as certain as we possibly can that we have ensured it is safe. That is, though, a major problem to the Customs Service, and I am delighted to see that this real problem that the service faces is being addressed, and will, hopefully, be addressed in the select committee process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI draw the House\u2019s attention to a television programme that I think has captured the imagination of many people in this country. It screens on a Monday evening. Regrettably, I am on a plane at the same time, but I refer to Border Patrol. People sit and watch that documentary, which is real-life stuff, not a soap opera.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94246af27a3472c911da1570860bf61\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you meant The Bachelorette.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a5920c053d47189a9c1434ca683c4d\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one. Border Patrol contains real-life examples of our border security actually working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI would also add that border security is the ultimate public good, as distinct from a private good. I do not know whether too much money could be spent on ensuring the security of our country and our people. It is as much a trade issue as a personal security issue. Personal security and terrorism came to this country, as some of us with slightly longer memories will recall, with the Rainbow Warrior. That came as a huge shock to New Zealanders, at a time when that type of terrorism was not even dreamt of, and gracious me, what was the source of that terrorism? It was a country that we now seem to be snuggling up to. France is one of the old-timers, shall we say, in Europe. It is a much-respected country. But it was a huge shock to New Zealanders to see an act of terrorism take place within our coastal waters, and in our terrestrial areas, as well. So if ever there was an understanding of just how important border security is, it should have come at the time of the Rainbow Warrior bombing. But the reality is simply that it has taken the appalling events that occurred more recently in America to make people realise that even in this faraway country of New Zealand, we are under a threat equal to that facing other countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI suspect the real threat comes not from planes crashing into buildings, or from bombs, but in the form of bioterrorism. In this country the impact of foot-and-mouth, bluetongue, or another exotic disease on our economy, our people, and our well-being would be far greater than bombs or any amount of TNT, dynamite, or whatever those appalling people who detonate bombs use these days. We are delighted to see that the Government is recognising that border security is, and should be, right up at the top of the list. I sincerely hope the select committee, in considering this bill, will ensure that every resource that is needed is available, and will make certain that the Minister in charge of the bill recognises the importance that all New Zealanders place on this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI see in the preamble to the bill the words \u201Cvoluntary agreements\u201D. I think that really sums up how we can achieve first-rate results. If, by imposing requirements, we create resentment in exporters, then we will have real problems. But I do not know of any meat or dairy company, for example, or any other company in the agricultural sector, that would not agree that voluntary agreements with the Customs Service and the officials who guarantee\u2014and who effectively do have to guarantee\u2014the security of our product, are the appropriate way to go forward. We need to ensure, of course, that customs officers are able to exercise their authority from time to time when that is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI return to the problem of bioterrorism and the potential impact of the introduction of viruses such as foot-and-mouth into this country, as I mentioned earlier. We saw the devastating effect on the British economy of that disease. It has had an absolutely huge impact. I am not altogether certain, after looking through this bill, whether enough emphasis is being placed on the detection of those viruses\u2014knowing, of course, that that is an extraordinarily difficult thing to do. We have to look, then, at the individuals coming into this country, at where they are from, and at their reasons for coming here. I am also delighted to be able to say that I fully support individuals\u2019 electronic records being made freely and instantly available to the authorities concerned with this very, very vital part of our existence in this little country of ours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EAnother thing that does, again, concern me enormously is the fact that I do not see very much about extra staffing, training, and resourcing going in to ensure that the outcomes that we require from our border security are obtainable. It is no good just to have a piece of paper or a bill stating the requirements and the sorts of outcomes that we would really like to achieve, and then to say we are sorry, but we do not have the resources to put into that ultimate public good. Therefore, it is essential that the Minister and the Minister of Finance understand that whatever is required must be made available. If one goes through the rural sector, as I have done in recent times\u2014and continue to do\u2014and asks farmers and the rural community what the most important aspect of our life in New Zealand is, they will say that security and our border controls are the single most important aspect, without question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe aspect that makes life very, very difficult for our customs people is the fact that we have a huge coastline. It is one of the biggest in the world, as I understand it. The opportunity for small craft to come in to one of the outlying islands or other places and conduct illicit acts is obviously quite substantial. I wonder whether aerial surveillance should not be part of our border security. Do we have the capacity, in terms of our Air Force, to be able to ensure that if any ships\u2014whether they be major tankers or just fishing trawlers\u2014come in laden with illegal immigrants, or whatever else, they can be detected appropriately? Therefore, border security is not just about the Customs Service but also about the Air Force, and about having an adequate Navy. All those aspects are totally interrelated, so we cannot just look at upping the number of customs officers in order to ensure that our security is adequate. We also have to address the ongoing problem of the resourcing of our armed forces\u2014our Navy, our Air Force, and our Army\u2014if necessary. Of course, recent events to ensure border security in places like the Solomons also highlight the need to upskill and increase the availability of our armed forces.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00223f99bed0098b41c1997186ab376d836c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f99bed0098b41c1997186ab376d836c\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E I have been waiting in anticipation to speak in support of this bill. It provides the New Zealand Customs Service with greater powers over people, and their property, who cross our borders illegally and undeclared. It also allows early and timely access to information for managing the risk that people, planes, ships, boats, and goods may pose as a terrorist threat. I commend Rick Barker for this bill. It comes from a Minister who cares, and a Government that cares, about the security of our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002278b7a5814a5c43c38cdde7169d5f66c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278b7a5814a5c43c38cdde7169d5f66c4\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E This bill causes the Greens serious concern, but we will support its referral to the select committee. For a start, we should be upfront about why this bill is before us. It is because the United States has demanded that we pass such legislation. The United States Customs and Border Protection Commissioner, Robert Bonner, was in New Zealand recently, and was quoted in the June issue of the New Zealand Customs Service magazine Contraband as stating that progress on security arrangements with the US in the customs area relied on two things: \u201CPart is contingent on legislation\u201D\u2014the Border Security Bill\u2014\u201Cand part is making sure that there is participation on a whole-of-Government basis.\u201D The problem that New Zealand and other countries face is that the United States is so powerful, as a trading partner and politically, that countries are being blackmailed into abiding by American-dictated freight security and immigration systems. For example, the measures laid down in this bill are dictated by the US Container Security Initiative launched in January 2002 as a response to September 11. The Container Security Initiative allows for US customs personnel to be stationed in foreign ports to ensure compliance with US dictates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe US-driven container monitoring measures in this bill do have certain advantages in terms of monitoring for safety purposes, including monitoring for biosecurity internationally. The Greens are very keen on biosecurity, and say we have to follow that up, as a nation, with a better monitoring system and by searching any containers arriving here that are identified as presenting a biosecurity threat. In the freight area, there is also a potential human rights problem with the bill\u2019s provisions for security checks on people who work in the areas of packing containers, trucking them, and loading them on to ships. It would be worrying if that led to subtle discrimination in a way that would be hard to prove. For example, employers in companies subject to security checks may start to act on the safe side when hiring people, so that people from, say, Islamic countries do not get to the top of the queue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe greatest concern for the Greens is in the area of the civil liberties implications of the immigration provisions in this bill. Stopping potential terrorists from getting on and off planes flying in and out of New Zealand can all sound very nice, but how many innocent people will be caught up and prevented from travelling, without any right of appeal? The fact is that the United States, whose databases will be used to identify many of the people to be stopped, has a very broad definition of who constitutes a risk. After September 11, for example, the United States detained up to 2,000 people and held them for long periods, on the basis that they may have something to do with terrorism. In fact, virtually none of them had, and only one court case has ensued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is in the spirit of international human rights conventions for the right of travel to be governed by the rule of law, but the provisions in this bill undermine that. There is no effective legal redress if a person is prevented from getting on a plane. Under the provisions of the bill, people will be notified about a decision against their travel, but that notification can be \u201Cin any form he or she\u201D\u2014that is, the Immigration Service officer\u2014\u201Cthinks appropriate\u201D. There is no requirement to give a reason, nor is there any right of appeal to \u201Cany court, the Tribunal, the Minister, or any other body or person\u201D if the Immigration Service prevents anyone from hopping on a plane to New Zealand. Of course, there is the added practical barrier to trying to address one\u2019s effective exclusion from New Zealand if one is sitting in an airport thousands of miles away from New Zealand\u2014or vice versa, if one is a New Zealander who is waiting in a New Zealand airport after having been stopped from getting on a plane to the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMembers should make no mistake about this: the international systems that are being set up here and elsewhere under US auspices will affect New Zealanders. Even if one was, say, in Los Angeles, and phoned up a lawyer in New Zealand and asked him or her to get to the bottom of one\u2019s exclusion from a plane, that lawyer would be handicapped by a provision inserted by clause 8 stating that the evidence can be kept secret by the Immigration Service under broad provisions, such as that it might \u201Cprejudice the security or defence of New Zealand.\u201D Evidence from overseas agencies like the Central Intelligence Agency will almost always be kept confidential, because of a clause allowing those agencies to determine its confidentiality. Under the provisions inserted by clause 8, the information is secret if the overseas agency \u201Cwill not consent to the disclosure\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEvidence from such overseas agencies is the very information that the Greens would be most suspicious about, on two grounds. One is its accuracy\u2014and we know clearly from the current debate over the failure to discover weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that we cannot rely on the information provided by the US intelligence agencies. It is often inaccurate and manipulated by politicians. The second, and associated, reason for being suspicious is that the American intelligence and police agencies often serve agendas that are different to ours here in New Zealand. The US agencies would be prejudiced against anti-nuclear, anti-war, anti - genetic engineering, or anti - corporate globalisation activists travelling into and out of the United States, or moving around the world in general. The US agencies could be inclined to provide damaging information on such individuals to New Zealand immigration or customs services under the exchange arrangements. It is a very easy way for such agencies to harass such political activists, because if the activists have a tight travel schedule, then stopping them from getting on a plane for a day or two can make a speaking trip or a trip to an anti-globalisation protest unviable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI am are not talking hypothetically here; I have an example of that from my own family. My late mother Elsie Locke was travelling as the official New Zealand representative to a children\u2019s literature conference in Vancouver, when she was hauled off the plane at Honolulu by the US authorities, and was not allowed to continue on the plane to Vancouver, purely and simply because they disliked her radical activist political background. In that case, she did eventually get to the conference, but she was not able to come back to New Zealand from Vancouver on her scheduled route via Honolulu. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe Greens also have considerable privacy concerns about the information that the airlines are supposed to give to the customs and immigration services, the information that the customs and immigration services will share with agencies overseas, and the possible misuse of that information. Under the bill, virtually anything can be asked for. The non-exclusive list of information to be given to the Customs Service includes such things as one\u2019s email address, and the information can include all sorts of details about one\u2019s travel history. There has been a debate in Europe over the details that European-based airlines are providing US authorities with, which include credit card numbers if the ticket is purchased with a credit card, particularly as there are inadequate privacy protections in American law about the subsequent use of credit card numbers by the US agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe do know that under the homeland security system that is being built up by the Bush administration information is freely shared across Government agencies, and there has been considerable public outrage about intrusions on privacy. For example, American librarians are currently up in arms about requirements that they hand over to the police the borrowing records of their library users. There are very few real controls on the information that New Zealand\u2019s immigration and customs services may provide to homeland security agencies in the United States. There is provision in this bill for written agreements between New Zealand and overseas agencies about the information that we give them, but there is also a provision for the Customs Service to provide information without a written agreement, as long as a record is kept of the information that has been passed on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EFinally, the New Zealand Customs Service\u2019s power to detain is expanded in this bill, with little legal constraint on the abuse of that provision. For example, under new section 148A(5) inserted by clause 16, a customs officer \u201Cmay continue to detain a person\u201D if the officer \u201Cis not satisfied that the person has correctly answered a question asked\u201D. That is a pretty arbitrary and open-ended power to give to an officer. Of course, the Green Party does want the customs and immigration services to have the ability to detect serious criminals, and to stop the smuggling of arms through New Zealand. We are in favour of improving the systems in order to achieve that, but we are far from satisfied that the bill as it is now drafted really controls the possible abuses of power, and that it does not catch up innocent parties, both by the customs and immigration services in New Zealand and by the overseas agencies that we may share information with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002219ac380d4cb74f0fbc2c6e2c3ba81458\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219ac380d4cb74f0fbc2c6e2c3ba81458\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak in support of the first reading of this bill, which has been introduced by my colleague the Hon Rick Barker. Other Labour colleagues have spoken about aspects of the bill, and the one thing I am pleased to see is that it provides a legal base for the Customs Service\u2019s innovative secure export partnership scheme, which sees the Government and industry working together to secure goods from the point of loading to the point of export. I think that the Customs Service has taken a very innovative approach, and it deserves our congratulations. I am glad to see that this bill formalises that approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00221c70b2de314740c1a9c983e3caa4a16c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c70b2de314740c1a9c983e3caa4a16c\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the National Party, I would like to join previous members in congratulating the Minister of Customs on the work he has done to see this bill introduced to Parliament. It is no mean feat for a Minister without any legal training at all to put together a bill of this complexity, and to do such a good job. I do not doubt that, along the way, it will be discovered that the Minister has made a number of major blunders, but, certainly, in the superficial examination that we give to bills at the time of their first reading, I have only praise for the work he has done. I believe that much of that work has been done on an unaided basis, to the extent that if the Minister has made slips, then he alone will be accountable for the errors that have occurred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are three areas that I would like to cover in the short time that is available to me in this second reading. First, I will talk very generally about the bill. Second, I will offer some reservations in respect of a particular aspect, and I am glad the Attorney-General is here to perhaps contemplate the issues that I will seek to raise. Third, I will make some comments in conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EFirst of all, the bill forms part of a Government package strengthening New Zealand\u2019s anti-terrorist legal framework in the wake of September 11. It accompanies the Counter-Terrorism Bill, and the Maritime Security Bill, which is yet to be introduced. The bill has three key features. They are, first, that airlines are required to send to customs electronic information on arriving and departing passengers, craft, and crew; second, that exporters are encouraged to enter voluntary arrangements with customs whereby their goods are made secure, and are subject to customs control from the time of packing to the point of loading on to a ship; and, third, there are a number of other amendments increasing customs\u2019 search and seizure powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI will start by speaking about supply chain security, because the Government is currently negotiating a nation-to-nation security deal with the US for container freight. The Americans now apparently want containers to be sealed at their point of origin, and the contents detailed, in order for the containers to be passed speedily across US ports. That is clearly an advantage in a setting where an alternative possibility might be port-to-port deals between New Zealand ports and US ports. So this bill establishes a voluntary system, whereby customs or Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials check containers as they are packed, and seal them with tamper-proof markers. Customs, obviously, hope that system will satisfy the US, so that it allows a nation-to-nation security deal. The US has many individual port agreements, and New Zealand clearly felt that, because many of our ports are small, it would be better to have one agreement for the whole country. If exporters choose not to participate in the system, then their goods will be subject to much more stringent inspection on arrival in the US, and will thus take longer to clear the wharf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second aspect, which members and the Minister have spoken about, is in connection with the travel security provisions, and the fact that international carriers will now be required to electronically lodge advance information on passengers and crew with customs, which, in turn, will link electronically with travel operators\u2019 and cargo managers\u2019 databases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would now like just to talk about some of the implications of this legislation, which I believe will need to be carefully considered by the select committee. What I am talking about is the oblique or indirect use of administrative power, which may well be misused. It is the sort of situation that currently confronts immigration officials at the border. A person boards a flight to come to New Zealand. He or she produces appropriate travel documentation that satisfies the authorities of the sending State. In the course of carriage to New Zealand, the person destroys his or her passport and other relevant travel materials. The person arrives at the New Zealand border and announces that he or she is seeking refugee status. That then becomes a problem for the refugee status branch of the New Zealand Immigration Service, and the case may well end up before the Refugee Status Appeals Authority for determination as to whether the claimant is properly making a claim for asylum. As I see it, the legislation, which does not really have this intended purpose, can be misused in the sense that data can be accessed on the true nature of the claimant\u2019s origin and identity. One may say that that is a good thing, but it potentially represents an abuse of administrative power. The committee should closely look at that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second issue that I seek to deal with relates to concerns that have been expressed by the outgoing Privacy Commissioner to a number of select committees of Parliament as we have looked at a number of pieces of legislation that are security related. Whether they are bills such as the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6), which deals with computer crime, or bills that relate to the setting up of the Government Communications Security Bureau and the vesting of powers in that entity, or bills that are concerned with terrorism in its asymmetric aspects, there is little doubt that Parliament is hugely ready to give to the security forces in this country significantly increased powers. The Privacy Commissioner makes the point, quite justifiably, I would assert, that some of these powers may not truly be required. The officials asked for them, and Parliament generally grants those wishes. But we in this Parliament should be constant in our vigilance that more is not given than is sought\u2014proposition one\u2014and, proposition two, that where something is sought it is not automatically given. I have some reservations as to whether, in respect of this legislation, the powers need to be as broad as Parliament is currently minded to confer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI spoke about the travel security provisions, and, of course, they are more complex than I have indicated. It is clear that the amendments proposed, for example, will allow customs officers to carry out automated pre-boarding checks of passengers and crew intending to travel to New Zealand. The plan is for electronic alerts to be recorded against a passenger or a crew member in the event that either a discrepancy or a security concern arises. Customs officials will be able to prevent passengers from boarding a plane or ship for intended passage to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are significant costs associated with this process. The Government estimates the cost of installing such an electronic system would be $21 million over 5 years. The airlines have indicated that they will incur additional costs of between $50,000 and $100,000 to implement this system for New Zealand. That said, of course, a number of countries have these same systems, and Australia is one illustration of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ELet me conclude on the issue of increased customs search and seizure powers. I do so in the context of the comments I have made that it may be the case that we are giving too much power to the bureaucracy and to the administration. Under this legislation customs will be able to detain for investigation suspicious cash and what is called tainted property. Those issues all require the close consideration of the select committee to which this bill is referred.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbc285b2031f400dbd4121b8eb5f6c98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbc285b2031f400dbd4121b8eb5f6c98\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow the former National defence spokesperson, who, as referred to in his speech, is nicknamed \u201CMajor Blunder\u201D, and to join him in praising the foresight in this bill. We do not have to go far outside New Zealand\u2019s borders to recognise that the world is a dangerous and unstable place at the moment, and that, worldwide, the requirements for security at borders are increasing. It is a particular pleasure to note that this bill brings in a mandatory requirement for advanced electronic information on arriving and departing passengers, which, quite simply, allows our border protection personnel to know the details of people arriving before they do so, so that the officials, indeed, can interdict people before they get on an incoming flight to New Zealand. It is one example of many of how New Zealand is joining the international mainstream by tightening up its border protection, in keeping with the enhanced security needs of the world in which we live. I compliment the Minister of Customs on this fine bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5d919fca6364bb1a29fefa2bfd732e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5d919fca6364bb1a29fefa2bfd732e7\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to join in the debate on this bill, which, as members will know, is part of a trifecta of legislation that the Government is looking to bring in, including the Counter-Terrorism Bill and the Maritime Security Bill. I have no doubt that the Minister of Customs, the Hon Rick Barker, will be pleased to have the support of the National Party. I say that because in the New Zealand Herald of 23 June of this year he said: \u201CIt should have been done a long time ago.\u201D The Minister will be relieved to have our support, and he will no doubt have our wise counsel and wisdom when the bill is referred to the select committee in some days\u2019 time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ENational supports this legislation because it seeks to preserve our national security, and it seeks to preserve our $4 billion of exports to the United States. Most New Zealanders would know why this legislation has been recommended to the House\u2014that is, because of the activities post - 11 September 2001. I want to take a moment to digress from the bill and to reflect on 11 September 2001 in a personal capacity. I spent 6 years, from 1995 to 2001, living in the United Kingdom, but spending every second week in New York. In that time I spent every second week living in the hotel that was destroyed on 11 September. That is not the reason that I raise that matter at this important time in the House; I raise it because on that day my boss, Michael Packer, died. He was giving a speech on the 108th floor, at Windows on the World. He perished with another two employees from Merrill Lynch, both of whom worked for me and whom I had recruited from the private sector. So that occasion was one of great sadness for me. The world has come to learn that terrorism has taken on a whole new face. We in New Zealand are not immune from such activities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to make specific reference to the $21 million the Government has foreshadowed will be the cost of this legislation over 5 years. I want simply to make this point. Not only has the world changed in the last 2 years, but also the cost of what happened on 11 September has been incredible and monumental. I say that because just 2 weeks ago the US Senate approved the Homeland Security Bill, creating the department under Tom Ridge. It approved the spending for the Homeland Security Bill, and the sum that the Senate approved was US$29.4 billion. That is the expected cost of homeland security for the United States of America. I simply suggest that the select committee spend some time analysing whether the realistic cost of this legislation will be $21 million over 5 years. I suggest that the cost will be a great deal more. This issue is a significant one. We have seen from the terrorism activity that has taken place post - September 11 that this kind of activity will be with the world, in my opinion, for decades to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to speak for a moment on the travel security provisions. My colleague the Hon Murray McCully spoke for a moment about the issues that may arise from the provisions in the legislation that relate to the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and privacy. In particular, it is worth noting that a great amount of the cost, the $21 million, is the cost of the pre-border electronic checking process that will take place not only for individual passengers but for people associated with individuals checking in. Those provisions will be very powerful and very useful if they are implemented properly. We simply have to have accurate information on who is coming to New Zealand, and whether they are appropriately entering our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBut we should not fool ourselves, and the select committee will need to spend a bit of time examining the impact that this measure will have on passengers when they go to the airport, when they go to our borders. I suspect the delays will be pretty significant. Some months back I travelled to Los Angeles en route to Canada, and I managed to experience at first hand what this is like\u2014my not having been back to the United States for a little bit of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022485758608907442d9d78a0460b732817\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: A body search?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b224c5a4dc5244bfb1c8b934e1ae2cab\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The body search, unfortunately, did not take place. I am sure it would be a very pleasurable experience in the right circumstances. It would have been a lot more exciting than what did take place, which was a 3-hour wait. It was like having to read a Labour Party manifesto\u2014I was asleep by the time I got to the first paragraph. A 3-hour wait pained me. I said to myself that there has to be a better way\u2014US$29.4 billion worth of homeland security!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ETo my right, I noticed something that I had seen in place many times as I had gone into New York, and that was the latest scanning equipment for thumbprints or fingerprints. I thought to myself that certain parties in this House would not like the concept of retina scanning or fingerprints, but I suggest that that will be absolutely necessary in the years ahead. I do not think passports, which can be forged in all sorts of dodgy countries in the world, will cut it. I think the real cost of this legislation, when it is finally put in place, will be considerably more than $21 million, but if it means that I do not have to spend 3 hours in a queue in Los Angeles, then I look forward to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI note the supply chain security, which comes to the issue of our preserving our $4 billion of exports to the United States. I have a little message to pass on to Labour Government members, just while they are thinking about this, and are alert and all ears. I recognise that this has been a rather slow and dull debate to this point. If they want to preserve our exports to the United States of America, here is a little tip: sign a free-trade arrangement with the US. The only way we will get one of those in place is when we have a real alliance with the US. From the way that the Government has been interacting with our great counterparts the Americans, we will not get one. A free-trade arrangement would preserve our $4 billion\u2014in fact, grow our $4 billion\u2014a great deal more than tamper-proofing a few canisters before they go to the US.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI would like to touch on some of the customs\u2019 search and seizure powers, because they are quite detailed in this legislation, and quite important. Under this legislation customs will be able to detain for investigation, for up to 7 days, suspicious cash and tainted property. I wonder what \u201Csuspicious cash\u201D actually looks like. Is it slightly different in colour, or slightly larger in denomination, or packaged in brown envelopes? I am not really sure of the definition of \u201Csuspicious\u201D. It is something that will have to be spelt out. It may simply mean lots of cash\u2014but plenty of people travel with lots of cash. \u201CTainted property\u201D\u2014I wonder how the Minister will define that. For instance, the Labour credit card said Labour would not put up taxes. I see that, in my personal opinion, as tainted property. We all know that the Minister of Finance has declared a jihad on the taxpayers of New Zealand by raising taxes 15 times since he promised on his credit card that he would not do that. I suggest that it is tainted property. Others may find a use for it, but we in the National Party do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting this legislation going to the select committee. I look forward, as the committee will, to the great input that will come from the National members, who are well travelled and well versed in world events. We look forward to making our sparkling contribution, as we always do, in this great House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7a2ef64fd3d4263896c902bb8aae5f2\u0022\u003EConsumer Protection (Definitions ofGoods and Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220da3db982a124a44a69ba471288335a9\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u00221d48acc4c2134af9a4e4fce8d20dacbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d48acc4c2134af9a4e4fce8d20dacbd\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225a0cddbf399c415a9c311154c9e9d90a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db50943338344f23ae03ca21508e7905\u0022\u003EFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b25dd8495f83433fb4b5a876d47895f8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000616\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00220863bcd4721b4962a38be1d312732461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220863bcd4721b4962a38be1d312732461\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the title clause of this bill, I would like first to cover the fact that the National Party wants to raise with the Minister a number of concerns about this bill. In particular, there are four areas of concern that we will be debating during the Committee stage. My colleagues and I will be seeking several calls on each. We are concerned about increasing the level of fines in an ad hoc and non-comparative way. It is clear that the Government has been doubling the fines involved in this legislation, with no reference to any of the increases or lack thereof of similar fines in other commercial legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe are concerned about the criminal limitation period\u2014that it may inadvertently lead to greater contingencies for business. We do not support exempting the Commerce Commission from the consequences of over-zealous actions by its officers in applying for interim injunctions, and we are concerned about the increased compliance costs from demanding certain information and documents from those people that the Commerce Commission or the appropriate authority is investigating. We want to say to the Minister that there is no regulatory impact, or compliance cost statement attached to the bill, and that is a breach of the Government\u2019s own guidelines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe have moved a number of amendments to the title of the bill. We do not think the title is a fair reflection of what is contained in the bill. Our amendments include incorporating the fact that some action will be taken on pyramid selling through some subtle word changes that will widen the ambit of the bill. However, we do think that it fails to recognise some quite considerable additional changes that are being proposed in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis Parliament needs to realise that this is not just an inconsequential Fair Trading Amendment Bill; this bill proposes to change the limitation period from 3 years after a breach or otherwise may have happened, to 3 years from when it was discovered, or ought to have been discovered. We think that that has some risks. For example, if someone advertised a product in an inadvertent way, or in a way that had since been corrected, then an aggrieved consumer could raise a number of issues through the judicial process that could lead to significant costs for business, but also, because business will not know when its limitation period has expired, it will be required to carry considerable contingent liabilities resulting from any warranties or any advertising that may have occurred. We think that this has not been thought through by the committee. We think that the title of the bill should be amended to reflect more correctly the fact that a number of enforcement and procedural provisions are incorporated in the bill. For example, the bill will require companies to provide documents and information\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bced60e876648248f9340c83af0f6bd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind the member to keep to the title debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8db4d0b9eba477d89b90a3893c63767\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chair, I am sure you were listening to my speech, because what I actually said was that the title of this bill does not fairly reflect. It is very easy for people to jump in and say to speak to the bill, but if people were listening to the debate, they would know that I have been speaking to it. The point I was making before I was interrupted was that this bill requires companies to provide information and documents that do not exist. That is why the title should be amended to include the fact that enforcement and procedural provisions that are quite draconian in nature are included in the bill. I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the amendment to clause 1 in the name of Lindsay Tisch that covers that very point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe concern is that if the commission requires a company to provide documents or information that do not exist, then that is a considerable expense to business. There is no ability for those businesses to recover the cost of generating documents and information that do not exist. In other procedures in the bill the Commerce Commission will be excused from having to reimburse or carry the cost for some of their decisions. That is why we are proposing amendments to the title of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022e85224ac8d8449ddaf36ca1b1f080c49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e85224ac8d8449ddaf36ca1b1f080c49\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to pick up from where my colleague left off. The title of the bill \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D is fairly innocuous. It is important that the title of a bill\u2014and I think it is recognised these days\u2014should accurately reflect as far as is possible the content of a bill. For example, with income tax amendment bills we do not just have Income Tax Amendment Bill (No 1), Income Tax Amendment Bill (No 2), (No 3), and (No 4). Let us go broader than income tax\u2014if it is a taxation amendment bill we are referring to, we try to build into the title what is covered in the bill. For example, we might have a \u201CTaxation (Annual Rates, GST Provision, something else, and something else) Amendment Bill\u201D. The beauty of that kind of title is that it gives the public a reasonable guide as to what is contained in an amendment bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe problem with this bill is that the title gives no guidance as to a couple of very significant items in it. The Opposition is not opposed to this bill\u2014in fact, we are totally supportive of the part of the bill that clamps down on pyramid schemes. It would be quite useful if the title indicated that it is this bill amending the Fair Trading Act that actually does deal with pyramid schemes. It would help people using our statutes, were the name to incorporate things like that. That is the first issue in respect of the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe second issue, and my colleague the Hon Tony Ryall has mentioned this, is that clause 8(3) contains a very significant issue relating to what is commonly called the statute of limitations, or the period of limitation. A very major change has been made in shifting from a period where action can be taken 3 years after an event, to 3 years after an event was discovered. That is a huge difference, because an event may not be discovered for a period of 5, 6, 7, 8, or 10 years. So that is a huge difference. When we do get to debate Part 2, there will be some issues that I hope the Minister in the chair can really cover in respect of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAgain, I come back to the title. An issue as significant as changing the period of limitation during which action can be taken is a significant change. If it were just being altered from 3 years to 4 years after an event occurred, that is not a huge change. Maybe one would not need to argue that the title should cover that, but this issue is big. This could change the period of liability from 3 years to 13 years. To have a change as big as that contained in a bill with such a bland title is not satisfactory. That is why I would argue that the title of the bill should really give greater guidance as to the key changes that are contained in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere are two of them\u2014the pyramid-selling schemes, and the changes to the limitation period, after which action cannot be taken. It is not good enough for the Government to get titles right in some areas of legislative activity, like in taxation. It is getting titles better in that area, but in this area, I do not think enough thought has been given to the title. The title of the bill, the \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D, could mean absolutely anything, yet the bill has some very, very significant things in it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAnother area that is obviously very significant for business is the doubling of penalties. Again, the title gives no guide that this bill doubles the penalties for certain breaches of the law. Again, it would be useful if the title were to indicate that that is another major element contained in the bill. So there are a number of key issues. If the bill goes through the way it is, the Commerce Commission may not be accountable for certain actions it takes. Again, that is a hugely significant issue that we will be asking a number of questions about when we get on to the particular clause\u2014is it clause 10\u2014that covers that. Again, in Part 2, I shall be asking about a number of issues around that. The title is really pretty unsatisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3cf899cafbd4a59b960a3313a3ce39d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3cf899cafbd4a59b960a3313a3ce39d\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E As my colleagues have mentioned, we will be supporting this bill. However, some provisions need to be looked at more closely, and during the Committee stage we will ask the Minister to answer these questions. First, the bill stands in the name of the Hon Judith Tizard and is titled the \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3). We always believe that the title of a bill should fairly reflect what the bill states. Nothing in this title articulates the very important changes that the bill purports to make. As I said, we will be supporting those changes. My colleague the Hon Tony Ryall has mentioned that this bill allows that there will be documents that do not actually exist, and sets out the power that the Commerce Commission will have. Nowhere in the title do we see anything that relates to that. If we go back to the first and second readings, there was much debate about pyramid-selling schemes, and they are covered in clause 5. One of the amendments that the Hon Tony Ryall has tabled, which is a very good amendment to the title, would delete all the words after \u201Cthe\u201D and insert \u201CFair Trading (Pyramid Selling Schemes and Additional Powers) Amendment Bill\u201D. This is significant. There is a change here, although it is only a minor change. If we were to go back to the principal Act\u2014and we will be talking about that later on when we get to clause 5 in Part 2, at some length\u2014if the title were to reflect what is actually in the bill, then there is an opportunity to be able to look at that amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe Hon Tony Ryall has another amendment to the title, to delete all the words after \u201Cthe\u201D and insert \u201CFair Trading (Miscellaneous Provisions) Amendment Bill\u201D. That probably more reflects that there are some miscellaneous changes that we believe are important. I have gone one step further in my amendment to the title\u2014that we delete all the words after \u201Cthe\u201D and insert \u201CFair Trading (Enforcement and Procedural Provisions) Amendment Bill\u201D. Of course this does allow for enforcement proceedings, and in clause 8(2) there is the liability that every person who contravenes section 24 commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $200,000. So there is a provision that I have put in my amendment that talks about the enforcement side of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith made a very important point about clause 8(3), which provides that proceedings under section 40 \u201Cmay be commenced at any time within 3 years after the matter giving rise to the contravention was discovered or ought reasonably to have been discovered.\u201D That is opened-ended, and that is one of the real concerns we have about this bill. Although we are supporting it, we really have a concern about that subclause and we will be looking at that one far more closely when we are debating Part 2, and clause 8(3) in particular. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other provisions, but I come back to the point I made about making sure that the title, which we are supporting, fairly reflects what the bill is about. I have mentioned the amendment I have put forward, and the two amendments that the Hon Tony Ryall has put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f12850634dc744729a54dc0d2e6c8c61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f12850634dc744729a54dc0d2e6c8c61\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00221b1f3f6cdcd14bb79022df46f0c7c78c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b1f3f6cdcd14bb79022df46f0c7c78c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am not at all surprised that the Hon John Tamihere tried to close this debate down. He knows all about scams, if anyone does. When this bill came in, it was described as being about fair trading. It was described as a bill to amend the Fair Trading Act, and it was described in extremely flowery language. I would like to read here from the Government Minister Rick Barker, who described the issues involved, but first perhaps I will have a look at what Mr John Tamihere, who is here in the House, said: \u201CThe true issue in the Fair Trading Act is the clause defining misleading or deceptive conduct, which states: \u2018No person shall, in trade, engage in conduct that is misleading or deceptive\u2019 \u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a503a40c69cd4eb99380b01c4706f8ab\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, but I need to bring the member back to the title. The bill has been to the select committee. It is a narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6aba6f073f9423ba522fee9aff6b1a7\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am discussing the title. I believe that this is a misleading title. There was a claim that it was about fair trading. There was a claim that it was about pyramid selling. There is an amendment before the Committee that suggests that the title refer, in particular, to pyramid selling. I am concerned that that amendment might be adopted, and I want to argue that in fact the bill\u2019s title should remain as it is, because it is innocuous. It does not tell us anything, and it does match, in effect, what the bill does. This bill was introduced as part of a Labour Party scheme to throw mud. This was part of an attempt to legitimise, to use the time of the House to legitimise, an attempt to go behind the Standing Orders and throw mud. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe person doing it, Mr John Tamihere, made a great point of integrity. He spoke on 2 May 2002 about the integrity, credibility, and ethics to stand up and publicise scams. This bill was promoted. It involved officials, it took the time of the Ministry of Economic Development people, it took the time of Securities Commission people, and they came along to speak to a bill called the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), when, in fact, the whole discussion they had to endure was about a non-existent pyramid-selling scheme. The National Party\u2019s amendment to change the title so that it refers specifically to pyramid selling would play into its hands. Because the bill actually has next to nothing to do with pyramid selling. Even the clause that refers to pyramid selling does not deal with pyramid selling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe true effort that went into this bill was disclosed in the report of the select committee in the very last two sentences, when we see that hearing evidence took 30 minutes, and consideration took 55 minutes. So hearing evidence took 30 minutes, and consideration took 55 minutes. This is a committee that, according to Rick Barker, was \u201Cgoing to make many investigations of the issues it raises, and the issues concerning fair trading. I want to see a very rigorous investigation of those issues, and I am absolutely confident that the Labour members on the committee will dig deep on that investigation. They will drill all over the place, and many things will be flushed out, for the benefit of the whole community.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI do ask the National Party to consider, when it votes on the title, and on its own amendments, not to be taken in by the references that were made to pyramid selling. There was absolutely no intention ever to look into pyramid selling. There was, in fact, no looking into pyramid selling. One of the National Party amendments urges the change to refer to pyramid selling. I suggest that there is a far better amendment in the name of the National Party that one could easily vote for\u2014that is, that the title simply read \u201CFair Trading (Miscellaneous Provisions) Amendment Bill\u201D. Certainly, ACT will support the National Party\u2019s motion in that regard, but should not support the earlier one, because this bill, I will go so far as to say, is a fraudulent waste of Parliament\u2019s time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u0022a73da57605314ed8a0396a1c735cf3fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a73da57605314ed8a0396a1c735cf3fe\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (NZ Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002218ba56511d994022ae66db500d22b13a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218ba56511d994022ae66db500d22b13a\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to take part in the title debate of the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) which is, as members know, a bill that refers primarily to pyramid schemes. I am not surprised the Labour Government has introduced this bill, because it knows lots about pyramids\u2014people being at the top, and everybody else flows down. It knows a lot about those schemes. I am not surprised that the Labour Government has introduced this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde260ce8ea545a8ac8b9a7e50d2d58b\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CJohn Pharaoh Key\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258f9fa238a0a4230a96c502b4b49673e\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Let us face it: I certainly like riding around on camels and humps, deserts, and things like that. I do not mind hot weather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E I have never actually been to Egypt though, I might add. I have been to a number of other countries, but I have never single-handedly seen the pyramids, and I would like to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt is not too late to change the title of this bill. Labour members could get the caucus in there, have a little chinwag about it, and come out and say that this title is not the right one. The title \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D is far too vague. Do members of the New Zealand public up and down the country know what the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) is? Do they even know what the No. 1 bill or the No. 2 bill is? No, they do not. Government members looking at me at the moment are terribly confused about the title. They are saying to me: \u201CThank goodness that National member is on his feet with some sound suggestions.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Minister for Small Business could well put this on his website while he is out there slashing costs for small businesses\u2014despite the fact that the other 19 members of Cabinet are increasing compliance costs. It is like Team New Zealand bailing water out of the boat\u2014it did not matter. There he is trying to chuck off a few compliance costs. He has the bucket and he is pouring the water out, but it did not do Team New Zealand any good\u2014it nearly sank\u2014and it will not do any good for small-business costs in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290d0f33ecebf4c47bcb9718b751f47f9\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: What about the title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ab40e216854668a21024730bcda03b\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: But we are not here to talk about the costs that are drowning New Zealand\u2019s small businesses. We are not here to talk about the failure of the website that the Minister for Small Business has. He is embarrassed by it, but we are not here to talk about that. We are here to talk about the title, which is the \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D, and why the bill is so shamefully titled. What a disgrace this title is! I am on my feet, and at no charge, I will come up with a far better title. I would not be surprised if during the dinner break\u2014or even before\u2014all 120 members of this House come down here and argue vigorously in support of my new title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo what is my new title going to be? It is like the Oscars, is it not? They rip open the envelope and read out the title\u2014but they do not want to say it upfront and straight away, because no one is there for the punchline. One has to get suspense going, and say: \u201CWhat is the title?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6ca978a23074698bf11caa9bae84844\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: What is the title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29c7b3ee8ad498d93b8a7ac25c43ee7\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good question. It is the \u201CStop Pyramid Selling in New Zealand Bill\u201D. There is no point in being ambiguous or beating about the bush. The Minister for Small Business does not beat about the bush on his website. He says: \u201CThese are ways to cut compliance costs in New Zealand\u201D, even if his colleagues are adding compliance costs. It does not matter\u2014he is not ambiguous in what he is says, and we should not be ambiguous with this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), which in large part covers the closing down of pyramid schemes in New Zealand, should be up in lights, so that when people are considering ripping off harmless and law-abiding New Zealanders with despicable pyramid-selling schemes, they should be able to flick through the website. Using their Yahoo search engine, with \u201Cl\u201D for legislation and \u201Cp\u201D for pyramid, they would come straight up with my wonderful title, the \u201CNo Pyramid Selling Schemes Bill\u201D, or the \u201CAnti-Pyramid Selling Schemes Bill\u201D, or the \u201CStop Pyramid Selling in New Zealand Bill\u201D. I think that last one was the one I thought of, but I have so many good ideas that I should not be restricted to one.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIf people read the title \u201CStop Pyramid Selling in New Zealand Bill\u201D, they would see that, yes, it is illegal in New Zealand. They would see that the Labour Government had finally done something of use and stopped pyramid-selling schemes. With a great deal of relief, people would say: \u201CI will not go out there and rip off poor New Zealanders.\u201D They would understand that, but will they ever find out with a title like the \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D? No, of course not. They will go to the No. 1 bill, and that will put them to sleep. When they wake up, they will have a look at No. 2, and that will be a huge yawn. Then they will finally come to the No. 3 bill\u2014the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002283b2287441d741b29f0581ce59bb9415\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283b2287441d741b29f0581ce59bb9415\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222a7754577e8f4c43b3c743c4ee498641\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000656\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name the of Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000657\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), and substitute the words \u201CFair Trading (Pyramid Selling Schemes and Additional Powers) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002207543fd0c6bd44069eb0647a0f1d2765\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 25\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 89\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 9;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000658\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000659\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D, and substitute the words \u201CFair Trading (Miscellaneous Provisions) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224a7a1bf33702476ba3bcdeba9fd69aea\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000660\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Lindsay Tisch to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000661\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u201D, and substitute the words \u201CFair Trading (Miscellaneous Provisions) Amendment Bill\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022853c12cc223645efbd36ea4583b926d0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 32\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000662\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225bea0c7ad4e74331b5e995f94ccd1213\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad618fd72f2c45fb9bdb3fd5c0b3ee76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad618fd72f2c45fb9bdb3fd5c0b3ee76\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E There are a significant number of amendments to the commencement date of this bill, and although I know, Madam Chairperson, that you are very quick to try to keep National and other Opposition members to the title, I indulge your patience so that you can see the thread of my argument about why we need to change the dates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThere are a number of amendments, but I want to talk in particular about the amendment in the name of Lindsay Tisch. It says that the bill should not come into force in toto until section 81 comes into force on a date to be appointed by Order in Council. If we look at section 81, we see that it is the section covering fines. I would like to explain to members why there needs to be a delay in the commencement date to allow for a review of the fines. These fines have not been amended since 1986, and during that time the cost of living has risen 54 percent. The Government proposes to adjust those fines by 100 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E Now one can make an argument that the Government wants to send a signal to the judiciary that the fines currently being applied are inadequate. The Government proposes that the mechanism for that should be a doubling of the fines. I would draw the Minister\u2019s attention to my amendment to insert new section 40A in a new clause 8A, which would provide a principle in the bill that duplicates the principle in the Sentencing Act that says to judges that they must impose a penalty near the maximum prescribed for the offending that is near the most serious. That means that the current penalties could be sufficiently adequate, but judges would be encouraged to use the full range of the penalties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe second argument I would make about why we need to defer implementation of the penalties is that there has not been a comprehensive review of the penalties regime applying to commercial law in this country for about 12 years. There are now several pieces of commercial legislation that have different levels of fines with no correlation to each other. So there are some bills where the maximum fine is $10,000 for quite serious commercial breaches, and now there is another bill where the maximum fine may be up to $200,000 for comparatively less serious offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b503280e153e42159f613303810b6f53\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: It is $100,000 now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead549a1ff3b437ebb837edfa46d650c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is $200,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3430ff4d85c4c30abb263df967240ee\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it is $100,000 now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd734d1bdd74156bba004de17642ce3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, but I am telling the member that her proposal is $200,000. I am saying that we should delay that until this Government has undertaken a full review of the various commercial legislation penalties regimes. In that way we would be saying to the commercial community that there is a consistency across the penalties regime. It is ridiculous that in some pieces of legislation quite serious criminal behaviour solicits a $10,000 maximum fine, but under this Government\u2019s proposal, one could get a $200,000 fine for something that could be comparatively much less offensive. So we say let us defer the commencement date of this bill to provide for a review of the regime of penalties across commercial legislation. It is currently quite ad hoc, and we think that we should provide for a review. I draw the Minister\u2019s attention to my other amendment to clause 8 that would require her, as Minister, to provide for a review of the level of financial penalties in comparison with penalties included in other commercial legislation within 6 months of the assent of this bill, so that we could do something about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EA further reason that we have other amendments to defer the commencement date is that we believe business needs to take legal advice on how to deal with the removal of the 3-year limitation period\u2014because, as Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith said, 10 years down the track businesses might now find that they are subject to a fair trading action in respect of something that happened 10 years ago that they have no contingent liability in their system for. We think the dates should be deferred for that reason\u2014to allow business to get appropriate legal advice on how they can deal with the removal of the 3-year limitation period from date of action. We do not support this amendment that says that it should be 3 years from discovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u002284ccb84f53b5463689ebb24aa80e24fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284ccb84f53b5463689ebb24aa80e24fd\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First agrees with the bill targeting pyramid selling, and with it broadening the target to incorporate the new forms of pyramid selling schemes that have developed since the Fair Trading Act was implemented. Such schemes include those whereby participants buy or sell an investment opportunity and use agents provided by the scheme\u2019s operator to recruit other participants on their behalf, instead of having to recruit new participants themselves. We also welcome the updates to the penalties. New Zealand First, however, has already expressed its concern about clause 14 in earlier speeches\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60a18339d584faeb4e3efcb07556679\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I draw the member\u2019s attention to the fact that we are debating Part 1, which is fairly narrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227334c917b6164041b83ff9163873425d\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Are we on Part 1?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba37f24f0d6a4736a97d8d7c20e0c225\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and it is the preliminary provision for the commencement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab5dfb05be45430dbd089d7d57377f55\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon. I will take a call on the other part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8571d2bdd924417be151338179fb8c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8571d2bdd924417be151338179fb8c3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, I would like to draw the attention of the Minister in the chair to a serious matter. It has become clear in recent years\u2014and when I say \u201Crecent years\u201D, I mean a period covering probably the last 20 years\u2014as we have made changes to our commercial law in this country that there have been serious issues around commencement dates and transitions. I am sure the Minister in the chair is aware of some quite serious problems that have resulted from the transition from the Commerce Act of 1975 to the Commerce Act of 1986. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is quite clear from the commentary that the bill has not been taken very seriously by the Commerce Committee, and that worries me. I think it was my colleague from ACT who pointed out that the hearing of evidence took 30 minutes and consideration took 55 minutes. What worries me about the commencement is the issue around the change to the period during which a business may be liable\u2014in other words, the provisions of new section 40(3) inserted by clause 8. I would like the Minister in the chair to explain to the Committee how this will work under the commencement arrangement. For example, will the new provision in new subsection (3) work if a business sells a service or an item, or does anything under the Fair Trading Act as it now is\u2014will it apply to some action taken after the commencement? For argument\u2019s sake, let us say that this bill goes through tonight and gets the royal assent tomorrow. After the bill receives the royal assent, will new subsection (3) apply to an action that happens from then, or could it apply to something that happened, say, 4 years ago but is not discovered until after this bill receives the royal assent? I think that is quite a serious issue in respect of transition, because there are clearly two different circumstances. I do not see how this legislation makes clear which would apply. I hope the Minister in the chair is hearing what I am saying, as the question I have is to me quite an important one. Will new subsection (3)\u2014that is, the change to 3 years after discovery, as distinct from 3 years from the action\u2014apply to actions that happen after the royal assent, or will it apply to discoveries that happened after the royal assent? There is a big difference there, and it could have a very significant impact on business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe bill should make it clear what the Government intends. The Government may say that it is not sure what it intends and that the courts will sort it out. The courts could read the law, as I have read this amendment bill, as meaning that anything that is discovered after this legislation receives the royal assent would be caught up in the new provision in new subsection (3). The dilemma for those involved under the Fair Trading Act is that, without knowing it, they could face a greater liability than they did under the previous Act. That is because the action may have taken place 2 years previously when they were operating under the existing Fair Trading Act. Yet with this amendment they could be caught by this changed provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EFor people selling a service or a good, or taking action under this Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) from here on, there is no problem, because they will know that it will apply to actions that take place after the bill receives the royal assent. They would know the law they were operating under. But I am not sure that this bill makes clear which way it works for events that have already taken place, and I would appreciate the Minister taking a call to clarify for the Committee the way it works. It may be that we should amend the provision to make the intention of the transition arrangements more specific on the face of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002260cca8c6bc0046f0ba1f7580374eed9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260cca8c6bc0046f0ba1f7580374eed9d\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The points that Dr Lockwood Smith and the Hon Tony Ryall have brought up concerning the commencement date are very important ones. We are trying to add value to the bill. We are supporting the bill, and we think we can improve it significantly by allowing the amendment in my name to go ahead. For the notice of the Committee, I want to make very clear what I am talking about. My amendment inserts after the word \u201Cassent\u201D, the words \u201Cexcept section 8 (1) which will come into force on a date to be appointed by Order in Council.\u201D What is significant there is that as the bill stands at the moment, the royal assent could in fact take place on Friday, because the bill will pass through all its stages today. We will have the third reading later on, and the bill will come into effect. But there is absolutely no provision that takes account of clause 8\u2014and new subsection (3) in particular\u2014because the point that has been made in new subsection (3) is that the provision there now is that: \u201Cproceedings under this section may be commenced at any time within 3 years after the matter giving rise to the contravention was discovered or ought reasonably to have been discovered.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo if this provision were to come in, in its current form\u2014and it is absolutely retrospective\u2014we do not know the impact that that would have on business. There could well be a contingent liability, and a business would be faced with something that might have happened a couple of years, or 3 years ago, that it knows nothing about today. We are saying that that is unfair. There could be huge compliant costs associated with an action of 2 or 3 years ago, because of this clause\u2014[Interruption] Well, the member over there says that they are taking care of business compliance costs with the ministerial panel. We have a Minister for Small Business, who, I would like to think, might take a call on this matter, because I do not know that the ministerial panel on compliance costs has considered the impact of a contingent liability under new subsection (3) inserted by clause 8. As I said, National is supporting this bill, and trying to make it user-friendly. We want a win-win situation that does not put business in a conflict situation\u2014because this bill could well do that. We want to know whether the provision is about action or discovery. It is our view that if a contravention was discovered, it means we could be dealing with something retrospective that business does not know about today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Tony Ryall has mentioned, there are so many different penalty regimes in place out there at the moment, and in this case the fines are increasing from $100,00 to $200,000. That is a huge increase in fines\u2014100 percent. The question would be: \u201CWhy have they doubled?\u201D. If we looked at the consumer price index since December 1986, we would see that the increase on that index is only 54 percent. Yet, in this case, these fines are being doubled\u2014from $100,000 to $200,000. There are so many penalty regimes out there at the moment, and we are asking for an account and review of what they are. We could do that if we were to make sure that when this legislation came into force, it would be on a date appointed by Order of Council, not on a date\u2014as it says in the bill at the moment\u2014that could be early as Friday. We say that that is unfair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe say that from a business perspective there needs to be some transparency. There needs to be some consultancy over this. We need to know whether these businesses will have a liability because of new subsection (3). That is the real concern we have about that provision, which states: \u201Cproceedings commencing within 3 years after the matter giving rise to the contravention was discovered.\u201D That is the issue, and we say that that needs to be reflected in the commencement date. As I have said, and I will repeat it, we are supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0f22984a70f4b63806f1f700b4fc772\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0f22984a70f4b63806f1f700b4fc772\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00220dce0372d9184d4f98dcbdcc7599cbde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220dce0372d9184d4f98dcbdcc7599cbde\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the National Party\u2019s amendments to the commencement clause. This bill has been sitting around for more than a year, and it has been given virtually no attention at all. The Commerce Committee record is 30 minutes\u2019 hearing of evidence, and 55 minutes\u2019 consideration, which was probably mainly consumed in considering the spelling and typos in its report. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6d9a09b66a9478786179a5c08afbfe9\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: And here we are in urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022724e291f80e84d5d9f1352304f091c35\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: And here we are in urgency, trying to pass a bill that will take effect the moment it gets the royal assent, and it is a bill that takes away existing rights. It is a bill that extends the power of the State. It is a bill that has some vagueness in it, which the committee blithely told us would not matter because most people would not be affected by the odd definition of pyramid-selling schemes as most franchise schemes are not unfair to many participants. So we have a bill that will actually require franchise organisations to go out and advise their agents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere is a principle of law that says that nobody should be convicted on the basis of law that they have not had an opportunity to know about. There is a principle, of course, that one is deemed to know the law, but how will people who are subject to this legislation know the law when it becomes effective the moment it has royal assent and when this Government has allowed the system for publishing bills to fall into such disarray that no one will be able to get this law until well after the time it has had the royal assent? Of course, they could be like us and beg. The very helpful staff of this institution give us a green assent copy so that we can know what the law is. But how many citizens out there will be able to find out exactly what the law is the moment the royal assent is given? Therefore, it is high-handed legislation. It set out mainly to be cosmetic in an attempt to attack the ACT party and others. Of course it backfired, and we are hearing silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere is no commentary coming from the other side during the Committee stage, despite this commencement clause, which states: \u201CThis Act will come into force on the day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent.\u201D We do not hear anyone from the other side trying to explain this bill now. The noisiest member when the thing was introduced, the Hon John Tamihere, does not really want to talk about scams these days. He does not want to get back into the rhetoric he recorded in May last year. So the Government wants to rush this bill through and bring it into force before anyone has had much of a chance to know about it, because what was supposed to be a triumph has become an embarrassment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe amendment proposed by the National Party is perfectly reasonable. It defers commencement by only a couple of months, but that couple of months is vital in terms of principle. No law should tell people from now on that the Commerce Commission can seek injunction proceedings against them and be totally unreasonable, and not have any sanction by way of compensating the person if the commission were wrong. No such law should come into force on the day that the royal assent is given. This is a law that purports to be tough on offenders, but in fact will quite possibly be tough on ordinary business people and ordinary franchise operators because it has been so badly drafted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis law had only 30 minutes\u2019 consideration of the evidence that people had laboured long and hard to bring forward. This law had a lot of technical evidence in writing, despite the cursory 30 minutes that the Commerce Committee\u2014I think chaired by Mr Mark Peck\u2014gave it. [Interruption] He was obviously under instructions, but he lost the role, of course. Perhaps it was some kind of judgment on not having used this bill as the opportunity it was supposed to be to drag people out and investigate pyramid selling. But we do have a very sensible deferral of some 2 months, until 1 August, brought forward by the National Party, which, for reasons I cannot fathom, says that it will, in the end, vote the bill. Nevertheless, that party has brought forward a sensible amendment, and it would be proper for all parties in this Parliament to support a change of that kind in the interests of fairness and in the interests of standing up for the principle that people should not be adversely affected by law that they can have no chance of knowing about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00227ca1a449e63b44eba1b798a5994f0b66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ca1a449e63b44eba1b798a5994f0b66\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Some good questions have been raised. Even though the National Party supports this bill, we do want to make sure it is being implemented properly. One does have to question why the bill has to be passed urgently right now and take effect maybe in a few days\u2019 time. Has some news come to the attention of the Government that there are some rampant pyramid schemes or other mischievous schemes out there that need to be unravelled as soon as this bill is passed? I call for the Minister to reconsider the decision not to be receptive to the suggested amendment to the implementation date. My colleague Lindsay Tisch has made some good suggestions about having a fixed date, such as August or September, for implementation. I am quite sure that the business community particularly, or people who will be affected by this legislation, have not become aware that the legislation has come before the House, will be passed under urgency, and will take effect immediately. How are they going to learn about the impact of this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIf I might just take an example, let us say clause 3 in Part 2, where we see that instead of the wording Falsely represent\u201D, the amendment bill will substitute the words \u201Cmake a false or misleading representation\u201D. We all know what lawyers are like. They know how to interpret words that seem clear to a layperson like me. They seem to be able to read a lot more into those words. I think the business community will need time to understand the difference between the expression \u201Cfalsely represent\u201D and \u201Cmake a false representation\u201D. Sometimes it seems to us that expressions mean just the same, but in my past experience in this Parliament, what we thought were obvious, clear, precise, English words might actually mean something quite different, just through the order they present, or the context. So people who are likely to be affected by this legislation need to have a very precise time frame as to when it is going to come into effect. Then they could approach Business New Zealand or the Auckland Chamber of Commerce to conduct seminars so they can fully understand whether very minor changes, on the surface, of a particular clause will affect them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut of course there are some major concerns that have been very capably raised by my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith about how to interpret this limitation period. When is the 3-year period going to start from? Is it after this bill has been passed, or is it on the original date the particular action was taken? These are important and serious questions. This Labour Government is well known to be hostile to the business community, and it would show a lot of grace and goodwill by accepting an amendment to have a fixed date so that the business community would have some certainty, rather than not knowing how those two changes I have just raised would impact on businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESome members may not remember\u2014or perhaps they were not in the House, because I am sure it was in the last term\u2014when the Labour Government was caught out very badly by refusing to accept the National Party\u2019s suggestion on the Commerce Committee of providing for a transitional period during the passage of the Commerce Amendment Bill, which led to a court case that the Government subsequently lost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb7cda6082e546daa08af4c57d3ea87b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb7cda6082e546daa08af4c57d3ea87b\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229aae42e954b54177a1ebf6f9a6abe2cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000699\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000700\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Cday after the date on which it receives the Royal assent\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C1 August 2003\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f907198ede3f4d0893c9513376b568ee\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000701\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Lindsay Tisch to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000702\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Cday after the date on which it receives the Royal assent \u201C, and substitute the words \u201C1 September 2003\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220e30cbf818984fd3988d01cc62e73fc4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000703\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Lindsay Tisch to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000704\u0022\u003Eto add the words \u201Cexcept section 8(1), which will come into force on a date to be appointed by Order in Council\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd4165248eb54e1aacd1d70137fdfb8f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000705\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ca78aadf85244accaef41f4aae0e7500\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act and miscellaneous provision\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b963b847512e451d8b356f3a5bac8950\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b963b847512e451d8b356f3a5bac8950\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E National Party Opposition members have proposed a number of amendments to the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), which will improve it. I make it very clear that the Opposition has quite a number of points it wants to cover on this debate, and I am sure that you, Madam Chairperson, provided that Opposition members are addressing the issue, will ensure that the Opposition has an opportunity to debate its proposed amendments sufficiently. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309fabfa6c354d72be696822ce883531\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: That comment was completely unnecessary. Mr Benson-Pope will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8e06104686a4cdebbd1ab3edc7f17dc\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce580fa002034b4b8135902b6cf79f85\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: We have proposed a number of amendments to this part to deal with a number of issues that the National Party has raised. We have an amendment to make it clear that franchise schemes should not be considered pyramid schemes. ACT, National, and New Zealand First speakers have made the point that there may be confusion about whether franchise schemes are involved and that it could lead to a significant compliance cost as they seek to redefine the terms of their operations and the conditions of their agreements, and we think Parliament should move to make it clear that franchise schemes are not pyramid schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe have a number of amendments to address the issue of fines, and we would like to take different calls to explain those amendments in detail. We will move an amendment that will require the Minister of Consumer Affairs to undertake a review of the various penalties that apply across commercial law to offending. We will also move an amendment that seeks a principle that would guide courts in their application of the Fair Trading Act. That is an amendment based on the wording in the Sentencing Act principles, which states: \u201CIn sentencing or otherwise dealing with an offender the court\u2014(d) must impose a penalty near the maximum prescribed for the offence if the offending is near to the most serious cases for which that penalty is prescribed, unless circumstances relating to the offender makes that inappropriate;\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe seek the Government\u2019s support for that, because the Government has voted for that wording previously. The Commerce Committee made it clear that the Government wanted to double the fines because the courts were not imposing fines at a sufficient level. We think a more appropriate remedy would be to provide a guidance to the courts that they should be more willing to use the full range of the penalties that are currently available within the law, and we seek the Government\u2019s support to deal with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the removal of the right of parties to seek compensation from the Commerce Commission if it takes an interim injunction against a party. If someone is going lawfully about his or her business, the Commerce Commission gets a complaint, and the commission then seeks an interim injunction of the court to stop that action, there are surely consequences. The Commerce Commission thinks that any alleged offending might stop, but it also has an impact on the commercial operation, its profitability, and the reputation of the people the injunction has been taken out against. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe say that the Commerce Commission should have to carry the cost of that if it has got it wrong. If the Commerce Commission takes an injunction against a perfectly law-abiding business in the belief that there has been a breach of the law, and it then takes no action because it cannot find a breach, there will have been a negative effect on the business\u2014it might affect the reputation or the profits\u2014the Commerce Commission should pay. It should compensate for the disruption to the business and reputation that taking that interim injunction would have cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIf I took an interim injunction against a company, I would have to pay if I took it wrongly, and so should the Commerce Commission. Why should businesses have to suffer because Commerce Commission staff have been over-zealous? It should be a basic right, as Business New Zealand told the select committee, to seek redress for suffering damages as a result of another person\u2019s actions, and we will move an amendment to withdraw the exemption the Commerce Commission will have from having to pay for any costs. I will touch on another amendment briefly. How long have I got?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b6e74017aa431db6551d69c2e6ce96\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Thirty seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264eae57589e943cc97c2a6b717bc19ac\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I may have to take another call to explain it. The amendment is in respect of what happens when the Commerce Commission comes into someone\u2019s business and says it wants a particular document, but that document does not exist. Recently there was a case in which the Commerce Commission went into a company under investigation and said that it wanted a document. But that document did not exist, and the company had to change its computer programs and write new ones in order to generate that document. The Commerce Commission did not pay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022a052186ba67a4b14841ed896492e7b8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a052186ba67a4b14841ed896492e7b8d\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First agrees with the targeting of pyramid selling in the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), and broadening the target to incorporate newer forms of pyramid selling that have developed since the Fair Trading Act was originally implemented. Such schemes include those where the participants buy or sell an investment opportunity, and use agents provided by the scheme\u2019s operators to recruit others to participate on their behalf, instead of having to recruit the new participants themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe also welcome the updates of the penalties. However, as mentioned earlier, New Zealand First has difficulty with clause 14, \u201CPower to search\u201D. The current wording of section 47 of the Fair Trading Act provides that the Commerce Commission can search to ascertain whether a person has contravened the Act. Clause 14 of this amending legislation extends the commission\u2019s powers under section 47 of the principal Act so that the commission may obtain warrants to search for evidence to demonstrate the nature and extent of the breach of the Act. That is to assist the commission in gathering evidence for the courts. They \u201Cmay\u201D search. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe wording of the subparagraphs of new subsection (2) in clause 14 refers to any conduct that \u201Cconstitutes, or may constitute,\u201D a contravention of the Act. It is the \u201Cmay constitute\u201D the contravention of the Act that we have difficulty with, because it is very vague, and not specific enough to allow the Act to operate properly. New Zealand First does not support that provision, which gives vague extensions to the power to search, because it gives the commission unfettered powers to undertake \u201Cfishing expeditions\u201D in the search to endeavour to find evidence of the conduct that \u201Cmay\u201D constitute a contravention of the Act. In other words, it is undertaking a search on a hunch. We feel that that is not good enough, and we have put a Supplementary Order Paper forward that removes the word \u201Cmay\u201D and replaces it with the word \u201Cwill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EPeople undertaking legitimate activities, such as, for example, stamp collecting, may trade a particularly valuable stamp, sell it, and use those proceeds to buy a car that is way beyond the means of their income. On the grounds of the wording of that provision, it could be considered that that stamp collector\u2019s activities \u201Cmay constitute\u201D a contravention of the Act and, therefore, would be subject to a search. That goes against the whole principle of this bill, because it takes in too wide a scope and leaves room for abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe would like to see that clause given a tighter wording, as in section 312 of the Crimes Act, which deals with applications for interception warrants. That section sets out extensive and definite parameters for the search warrant, rather than leaving the parameters vague and easily misinterpreted\u2014or worse, abused. The amendment on our Supplementary Order Paper tightens that up. We would prefer it tightened up more along the lines of the Crimes Act, but we will be content to see the wording changed from \u201Cmay\u201D to \u201Cwill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002236f8494a9a634cf0b2c6ac9a9c903231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236f8494a9a634cf0b2c6ac9a9c903231\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to make a few comments on Part 2 of the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3). First, I will make a few general remarks, because the Green Party has not spoken at all on this bill, to say that we will be supporting it, slightly half-heartedly because we believe that it is so narrow in its purpose and there are so many serious issues relating to the Fair Trading Act that would be of great benefit to consumers if the law were strengthened. But this bill focuses on a couple of issues that really, I believe, miss the main concerns that consumers might have about the Fair Trading Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E So, in other words, we see it as rather limited in its purpose. We certainly support the idea of strengthening the powers in respect of pyramid selling. The member from ACT argues that the powers already exist, and that it is rather pointless, but we will take it at its face value, and say that this certainly spells it out. So we support that and some of the other provisions in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EWe are deeply disappointed that the bill has not dealt with fundamental issues. For example, the bill does not even establish a consumer\u2019s right to know what is in a product that he or she purchases. There are all sorts of other flaws in the legislation that need strengthening, and we are concerned with clause 14. The member from New Zealand First has pointed out the very wide, broad\u2014and some would say sweeping\u2014powers that that provision gives, such as the power to search given to the Commerce Commission, and we are extremely concerned about the very far-reaching and unfettered nature of those search powers. So we will definitely be supporting the amendment from New Zealand First to tighten that amendment, and to define precisely what we mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EAs the previous speaker said, under the Crimes Act one has to have very specific and serious reason to believe there is some infringement or whatever to get a search warrant. It is quite specifically spelt out, whereas here it is extremely loose. It is all about saying that one must have reasonable grounds to believe that a search is necessary for the purpose of something that \u201Cmay\u201D constitute, etc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThe member from New Zealand First is moving an amendment that we support, but one could drive a bus through this. I may be a little paranoid, but I sometimes worry that with a small bill like this, some technical amendments are slipped into a technical bill, with the thought that some of us may not be paying a lot of attention to it, then one finds that something is slipped in that significantly extends the search warrant provisions. They are then slipped through, and we are told: \u201CThere\u2019s a precedent for this.\u201D If we suddenly find those provisions being slipped into other bills, we may then be told, \u201CWell, the precedent exists in the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3).\u201D, so we worry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EIt may be that there is some other good reason for this very, very loose wording, but that has certainly never been spelt out to us. Whatever the reason may be, the fact is that the unintended consequence of this very loose wording will be that the search warrant provisions are widened to the point where people could be going on a fishing expedition, as the previous speaker said. Basically, as it is at the moment, the bill is giving unfettered search powers, and I am not aware of any other search powers in any other legislation that give the same broad, unfettered search powers\u2014whether to the Commerce Commission or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003ESo I am delighted that the member for New Zealand First has drawn our attention to that defect in the legislation. We are grateful to him for drawing it to our attention, and for coming up with a tightened wording. The Green Party will certainly be supporting the amendment, and we hope that all other members in the House will also support it. As I say, we will be supporting the bill\u2014narrow though it is, in its scope\u2014but we bitterly regret that it does not deal with some of the more fundamental problems with the Fair Trading Act from a consumer\u2019s point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022605449acb85146c8b05fc5cd380131d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022605449acb85146c8b05fc5cd380131d5\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 2 of this bill, there are three clauses that I would particularly like to focus on. The first one is clause 8. During the debate on Part 1 I raised the issue of the transition in the new arrangements in respect of the limitation on liability. I note that in the commentary on this bill the Commerce Committee makes the comment that \u201CThis will not operate retrospectively.\u201D It worries me that when one reads the bill one finds there is nothing to make that clear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218dc9ee20d3048d282c1a091688de9f3\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 16.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a34ce0efb22e49b2ae868640b24dc6fc\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister calls out \u201Cclause 16\u201D. That clause, entitled \u201CProvisions as to proceedings already barred and pending proceedings\u201D, states: \u201CNothing in this Act\u2014(a) enables any proceedings to be brought that were barred before the commencement of this Act;\u201D. But I think the problem remains, because within the last 3 years a person involved in a business knew that there was a 3-year limitation on the time in which an action could be taken if something had gone wrong. This bill will change that, even though the event may have occurred before this legislation takes effect. I do not believe that clause 16 covers that, and that is what worries me. As I read the bill, including clause 16, I do not think that, on the face of it, the bill is clear on that transition. That just worries me, because we have seen so many things go wrong with transitional arrangements in commercial law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EProceedings in respect of an event that has occurred within the last 3 years and that has not yet been found to be faulty are not barred by clause 16. The time period is extended by this legislation for something that may have occurred prior to the commencement of this legislation, and that is retrospective. It has a retrospective impact on the person conducting the business. I would appreciate it if the Minister could take some advice on that. It should be made absolutely clear that the provisions of new subsection (3) inserted by clause 8 do not catch an event that occurred prior to the commencement date of this legislation, even if the event occurred within 3 years of that date, or otherwise the effect of this legislation will be retrospective. That is the first issue that I think the Minister should take a call on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe second issue I would like to comment on is clause 10. As a member of Parliament, my experience of the Commerce Commission goes back many years, and I believe it should not be exempt from the requirement to give undertakings as to damages. The Commerce Commission can have a profound impact on businesses. The actions of the Commerce Commission resulted in a certain business in my electorate going out of business\u2014that is what that business believes, and that is what a select committee minority report argues. Admittedly, the bill is not about exactly that kind of situation, but the Commerce Commission can have a profound impact on businesses in this country\u2014it can put them out of business. An injunction taken out under clause 10 could result in a business going out of business. The Commerce Commission must not be exempt from undertakings as to damages, when that is the possible consequence of its actions. I think we should hear an explanation from the Minister as to why the Government is taking that quite extraordinary step in this legislation, when it is so clear that the actions of the Commerce Commission under clause 10 could put a business out of business. Once that has occurred, that business has no come-back against the Commerce Commission. The situation is already hard enough. It is hugely difficult to take action against the Commerce Commission. The resources of small businesses are not remotely the same as those of the Commerce Commission, and to make the Commerce Commission exempt from giving any undertakings as to damages tilts the balance in a most unfair manner in favour of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EFinally, in respect of new section 47(2) inserted by clause 14 and the issue of the new powers to search, I say that even the Inland Revenue Department does not have the same powers. As I read paragraph (b) of that section, the Commerce Commission could have the power to take a computer from a business for the purpose of gathering or recovering evidence, which is a power that even the Inland Revenue Department does not have. In recent legislation that has gone through this House under this Government, a lot of care has been given by select committees to make sure that computer hard drives cannot be taken from businesses, because some businesses could not operate if that was done. I do not see in this provision the protection that is provided in most recent legislation for other important bodies, even in relation to provisions to combat terrorism. Other important bodies cannot take a computer without restraints around that, yet I do not see here anything to constrain the Commerce Commission from taking a computer from a business as it seeks to recover evidence from the business. Why should the Commerce Commission have more powers to remove a computer from a business person than the Inland Revenue Department? That shows the hasty way that this bill has been drafted, and it shows that the select committee has not adequately aligned this provision with those in other legislation recently passed by this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022961a2a8dc3fa48d88f35bf347c6ef7b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022961a2a8dc3fa48d88f35bf347c6ef7b9\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d463b688ad3940cd9356660202fc0907\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d463b688ad3940cd9356660202fc0907\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on this bill on behalf of the ACT party. The ACT party will vote against this bill, and when members look at Part 2 they will see why we will vote against it. The drafting of this legislation is fuzzy. We know for sure that it will have to be tested in the courts, and the people who will have to pay for that, of course, will be small businesses. This is basically a bill that increases yet again the compliance costs on small business. This anti-business Government just wants to penalise small business as much as it possibly can, and now it is doing so through the Fair Trading Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWhen the Government is hostile to business, we end up with law that is not good law. Referring to clause 5 in particular, I very much support the amendment put forward by the National Party to make sure that that clause does not disadvantage franchise owners. I worry that new section 24(2)(a)(ii) inserted by clause 5 reads: \u201Cthat, to many participants in the scheme, constitutes primarily an opportunity to buy or sell an investment opportunity, whether personally or through an agent, rather than an opportunity to buy or supply goods or services;\u201D. So it refers to an investment opportunity, rather than to goods and services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard, just to reassure members of the Committee on the question of whether that clause will trap people, for example, who sell Amway products. No, I suppose it will not, because that is actually a good or service. But Amway of New Zealand recruits other people into the business. What happens when it recruits people into the business and things do not work out as well as they thought they would? Will this bill disadvantage those people? Should the people who are in that Amway of New Zealand business be worried about that? What about timeshares? When people buy into timeshares they are actually buying into an opportunity to have a nice holiday and so on, and sometimes they have to try to sell those off. But investments in timeshares are not actually a good or a service. It is sort of like a holiday or a dream. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ECan the Minister take a call just to reassure us that legitimate business will not be trapped by the provisions of clause 5? The point is that when one reads that clause one does not know what it means, and that means a poor unsuspecting person who is involved in investment opportunities will find himself or herself caught by it. Labour, as the prime party in the Government, has a responsibility to make sure that the law is clear: that the law means what it states, and that when lay people read it they can understand whether they could be caught by it. I would like to make mention of the fact that\u2014because this bill is a bit fuzzy\u2014what will happen is that an unsuspecting small business will get caught by the Commerce Commission taking a case against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E I worked in a company a number of years ago when the Fair Trading Act was first passed through Parliament. The Commerce Commission decided to pick on the company I worked for, as a test case. I can tell the Minister in the chair that an enormous amount of stress and pressure was caused for that small business because the Commerce Commission itself did not understand the law. It was using that company in order to have the law interpreted for it. That was a huge burden of stress, worry, and cost for the small business that I worked for. At the end of the day, it turned out that the Commerce Commission was totally wrong. It had got the wrong end of the stick altogether, but we were the poor victims who had to help to have the law clarified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EBecause this bill is so badly drafted, I know that in the future many small businesses in New Zealand will suffer because of the law that this Labour Government has forced on them. What is even worse is that new section 41(6) inserted by clause 10 states that the Commerce Commission does not have to pay damages if it has got things wrong. I can tell the Minister that many members of this Parliament know what happened to a poor couple when the Occupational Safety and Health Service decided to take a case against them\u2014the Berrymans. Some members will have had the Berrymans attend their select committee to ask for compensation. What happened there was that the Occupational Safety and Health Service was taking a case against them to test the law, and that just about destroyed their lives. The Labour Government should not be responsible for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u00222df4dc464e0c431d93394a4ebe1d8595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df4dc464e0c431d93394a4ebe1d8595\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (NZ Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022174e5462d629446ab07b1488b6addd5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022174e5462d629446ab07b1488b6addd5f\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a substantial part of the bill, and the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard, should take a call on it. Many very worthwhile amendments have been put up, and not just by National or ACT. The various political parties have put up a range of good amendments, and most of those political parties, including the National Party, support the bill. Obviously, when we support a bill and put forward amendments, our only intention is to make sure the bill is more effective when it is implemented. The Minister should take a moment to reflect on the obvious good intention on the part of the Opposition parties, and assess the need to amend the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I would like to come back to clause 10, with regard to the Commerce Commission. The ACT party has put in an amendment to remove the word \u201Cnot\u201D, which would make sure that in determining the Commerce Commission\u2019s application for the granting of an interim injunction, the court would take into account the fact that the commission is not required to give an undertaking as to damages. This is important. My good colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith raised the point that unless there is a more level playing field, any business organisation or anybody else can be required by the Commerce Commission to do all sorts of things, and, when the Commerce Commission take out an interim injunction, if that is incorrectly done there will be no damages awarded for that. So this is not a level playing field. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOf course, my expectation that the Labour Government would take that into account has diminished somewhat. I am not as positive as my colleagues that the Minister or the Government will take into account such a sensible and correct amendment, in the light of what occurred this morning, when we saw the immigration bill being rushed through, which gives total power to the Immigration Service\u2019s chief executive officer and other officers to carry out all sorts of functions, without having to explain or to justify that. But that does not make this measure correct. The Commerce Commission should be totally accountable for its actions, so that if it has issued an interim instruction and happens to be incorrect, then it should pay damages. That would serve as a reminder to Government organisations like the Commerce Commission to be very careful and really vigilant in making sure they have got everything correct, before they issue an interim injunction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other issues I want to raise are about the authority provided in clause 15 for the Commerce Commission to require a person to supply information or documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.00 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2c5da3e633247ecb6ce178a989b203b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2c5da3e633247ecb6ce178a989b203b\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e3e56a1333432195c130199bb1e499\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako): \u003C/span\u003EBefore the dinner break my colleagues Tony Ryall, Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, and Pansy Wong were going through Part 2, and speaking about its importance. In essence, this part is the most important part in the bill. In it we find all the nitty-gritty of what this bill is about. We agree with some of the clauses. Clause 4, \u201CTrading stamp schemes prohibited\u201D, is one that makes sense, and we have no difficulty with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EHowever, we certainly have some difficulty\u2014and I have mentioned this in previous contributions\u2014with what is happening in new section 40(3) inserted by clause 8(3), which states that \u201Cproceedings under this section may be commenced at any time within 3 years after the matter giving rise to the contravention was discovered or ought reasonably to have been discovered.\u201D That is open-ended, which concerns us. What happens in a business environment if something is found to have been in contravention of the legislation a couple of years ago? There is, and can be, a contingent liability on that business. Who is to say at this stage that there is a liability? This clause makes the situation open-ended, because, as I said, there will be, or could be, a liability on a business. We are concerned about that, and have discussed it at some length. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about clause 10, \u201CInjunctions may be granted by Court for contravention of Part 1, Part II, Part III, and Part IV\u201D. That clause gives huge powers to the Commerce Commission\u2014powers that we think could be abused. Previous speakers have said that the impact of those powers could mean that businesses will close down. That is our major concern about clause 10. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EClause 14, \u201CPower to search\u201D, gives huge powers of access. In fact the powers of access under that clause are powers that even the Inland Revenue Department does not have, and that is not right. There needs to be some conformity between this legislation and what other departments are involved in. Certainly, in the case of the Commerce Commission, huge powers are given in new section 47(1), which states: \u201CThe Commission may, from time to time, authorise an employee of the Commission to search, under a warrant issued under subsection (2), any place named in the warrant for any of the purposes set out in that subsection.\u201D We regard that as being open to abuse. We do not think such huge powers are acceptable. Although we have said all along that we will support this bill because it moves in the right direction, I make those points very clearly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EClause 8 doubles the fines that can be imposed. New section 40(1A) in subclause (2) states: \u201CEvery person who contravenes section 24 commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $200,000.\u201D The current fine is $100,000. Why are we talking about a doubling of a fine to $200,000? The fines regimes for many businesses vary, and we have argued, as we did in the debate on the commencement date, that we should have a review of all of the fines regimes. Some people would be paying $10,000 and other figures for other offences, but, more important, in relation to this bill we see there is a doubling of the fines from $100,000 to $200,000. As I quoted earlier, the consumer price index has only gone up by 54 percent since 1986. So why are we talking about a doubling of the fines?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u00220727fd7d4d0b436aa18f1178b9b2d235\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220727fd7d4d0b436aa18f1178b9b2d235\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7a3507964504715a61b30ccd9ba88db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7a3507964504715a61b30ccd9ba88db\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 contains nearly all the substance of the bill\u2014there is nothing else in the bill that contains any substance. There are three clauses that I believe the Committee must debate. I had to leave the Chamber briefly before 6 p.m., so I am not sure whether the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard, has taken a call to explain those provisions. I imagine she will, because this is the bill that her colleague Minister Rick Barker described as being \u201Cfantastic\u201D. He told us that the Commerce Committee would make many investigations into the issues it raises, stating: \u201CI want to see a very rigorous investigation of those issues, and I am absolutely confident that the Labour members on the committee will dig deep on that investigation. They will drill all over the place, and many things will be flushed out for the benefit of the whole community.\u201D I imagine that those Labour members are very well equipped to answer those serious questions.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe first asks why the definition of pyramid selling schemes catches a good deal of the ordinary franchise work that this Government has said is a large part of the future. Branding and the ability to take advantage of locally produced or international brands is a major part of any modern industry. For some reason, this bill seems to want to catch franchise agencies and franchise selling, and the only explanation for that from the select committee was that other provisions will mean that we do not have to worry about bad words here, because most franchise schemes are fair. Of course, almost any scheme can be found to be unfair in hindsight, but commercial certainty, or, indeed, the rule of law, depends on knowing what the law means in advance, not after one has worked out that it did not turn out the way one expected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe second question is the one on which I have an amendment covering what I am sure must be a manifest error. Clause 10 contains a provision stating that the court may not require an undertaking as to damages\u2014in other words, on seeking an injunction. For hundreds of years the courts have made sure that people cannot abuse power by coming and getting an urgent remedy that could cause enormous damage to the other side, unless they are prepared to say that if they are wrong they will compensate for any damage. The Government has now decided that the Commerce Commission will be exempt from that. It can use injunctions for harassment, or it can kill someone\u2019s business, and it does not require the commission to give an undertaking as to damages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThen there is the provision in the clause that I believe must be an error, and I certainly ask the Minister to check with her advisers whether it is. It states that: \u201Cthe Court must not take into account\u201D\u2014in granting an injunction\u2014\u201Cthat the Commission is not required to give an undertaking as to damages.\u201D It is inconceivable that the Government could mean what it is saying. Surely, it should be taking into account that the other side could be utterly destroyed, and that the Commerce Commission will be completely free from having to compensate when the court decides whether it is in the interest of justice to give an injunction. The word \u201Cnot\u201D in that provision must be an error. I say to the Minister that I believe that not only the House, but also the people who believe in the rule of law and justice, would expect some sort of answer if my amendment to remove the word \u201Cnot\u201D is not accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThirdly, there is another little drafting point that I suspect is a little less obvious. It is in new section 40A, to be inserted by clause 9. Subsection (1) states that the court may order a wrongdoer to pay an amount not exceeding the value of any commercial gain resulting from the contravention\u2014that is ordinary common sense; one can work that out. The problem is that the provision does not stop there. The next subsection states that the court should work out what the gain is, but the first one goes on to say: \u201Cif the court is satisfied that the contravention occurred in the course of producing a commercial gain.\u201D As I read them, those words are entirely redundant. If they are not redundant, the court will have to give them some meaning. How can a contravention not occur in the course of producing a commercial gain if in fact the commercial gain results from it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022dcb3df66d64c42fb8a5cb0632d135d41\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dcb3df66d64c42fb8a5cb0632d135d41\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e2e0ff18f44e4e955073e0e1e1b481\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will take one more. There are a lot of amendments in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall, and I am prepared to listen to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022403a39a03dde41dd81138dfb8750b4cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022403a39a03dde41dd81138dfb8750b4cd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairperson. It is good that you have done that, because Part 2 includes the substance of the bill, and if we are to try to provide positive suggestions to the Government, we need some opportunities to talk about them. We have a number of amendments to the bill that I would like to talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe first is that we want to limit the ability of the Commerce Commission to require companies to provide documents that do not exist. The law gives the Commerce Commission substantial powers to enter, seize, and demand information and documents. That will extend to requiring information and documents that do not exist within accounting systems, or cannot be readily produced. There will be a significant compliance cost for business. Business New Zealand told the Commerce Committee of a recent case where a company had to produce reports that were not in its accounting system, nor in its records. It did comply, at a considerable cost of time and money, and then the commission found that there was no case to answer. There is no compensation for that private business, which had to spend thousands of its own dollars in doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ESecondly, we have put an amendment to stop the Commerce Commission and this Government from removing the basic right of New Zealanders to seek redress for suffering damages as a result of another person\u2019s actions. This bill will allow the Commerce Commission to seek an injunction, with no cognisance of the cost that the business may incur. The commission can go to court and require a business to stop trading, but the commission does not have to compensate the business if it finds that there was no illegal activity. That is anti-business and just does not make sense. The Minister of Consumer Affairs should explain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe have also put amendments to the limitation period, to try to improve the bill. The bill proposes that in relation to, for example, claims made in advertising, companies are liable 3 years after a breach is discovered, rather than when it actually happened. The commercial consequence of that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239abdf1f4104451db79aba9a6bf09266\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019ll scare the hell out of used-car dealers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b67cd725a2418287042fbda5fa2a3d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Duynhoven said that will scare them. The commercial consequence of that is a number of businesses will have to carry quite significant contingent liabilities, because businesses cannot be sure that the claims will come to an end. Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith made the point that this legislation is quite unclear whether that provision will apply retrospectively. The Government states in the commentary on the bill that it will not, but if one reads the bill, one sees that it is quite unclear how it will be prevented. So we have put amendments, and we ask the Government to consider those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the 100 percent increase in the fines. There is no justification of why that level of fine should happen. The Government says that the courts are not fining enough. Its response is to double the fines\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022409f8e01c9314a5f8a974c1c9aa473a9\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Then not collect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccd228a7f1a64a3ea5530a4852d79948\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Then not collect them! Its response is to double the fines, and hope the judges will lift the amounts they are fining. I have proposed an amendment that uses the Government\u2019s own words in the sentencing guideline in the Sentencing Act. My amendment suggests to judges that, in the worst cases, they use the full range of the penalty that can be applied. Those are the Government\u2019s own words, and I am asking the Minister to consider supporting those amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party has been prepared to support this bill up until now, because we thought that the Government would look upon our amendments as providing positive solutions to concerns that have been raised. But the Government has not even given us the courtesy of a response. The Minister said earlier on in the debate that she would respond at the appropriate time. This could very well be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d03e3fa0a4145359f4f9a786f57a3a9\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: The third reading is the appropriate time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b9ee56a5254a4fa67d935d91812668\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish! If that Minister wants to continue having multiparty support for this bill, she should take a call. When one goes through the weaknesses in this bill one becomes quite convinced that this bill should not go any further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4fc413be8784129b194e35b360efa18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4fc413be8784129b194e35b360efa18\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282706fc5dcaa43c38284075d2426886b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e02d5cf7ae974bbda0e888f2377c7e67\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to insert new clause 5A be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000776\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000777\u0022\u003Eto insert, after clause 5, the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000778\u0022\u003E5A\tSection 24 of the principal Act is amended by adding the following subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000779\u0022\u003E(3)\tNotwithstanding anything else in this section, for the avoidance of doubt, franchise schemes which are not manifestly unfair on account that these schemes do not rely on recruitment of additional participants to enable financial rewards are not considered pyramid selling schemes.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022049c1a7e4a9a4a9dbc19c276ed0425ae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eamendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 8 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit subclause (3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000780\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000781\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 8 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000782\u0022\u003Eto amend subclause (3) by adding to new subsection\u00A0(3) of section 40 the words \u201CFor the avoidance of doubt, this subsection will not apply retrospectively to matters which occurred 3 years before the commencement of this Act.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ff054a27582e4c0094ae343c13d2fb26\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000783\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 8 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000784\u0022\u003Eto add the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000785\u0022\u003E(4)\tThe Minister shall present a report to the House within 6\u00A0months of Royal assent of this bill, reviewing the level of financial penalties in comparison with penalties included in other commercial legislation.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221d7aff43f9ce427191b32dc0d5eebe35\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000786\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to insert new clause 8A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000787\u0022\u003Eto insert, after clause 8, the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000788\u0022\u003E8A\tNew section 40A inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000789\u0022\u003E\tThe principal Act is amended by inserting, after section 40, the following section:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000790\u0022\u003E40A\tPrinciples of dealing with offenders\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000791\u0022\u003E\tIn fining or otherwise dealing with an offender, the Court must impose a penalty near the maximum prescribed for the offence if the offending is near the most serious cases for which the penalty is prescribed, unless circumstances relating to the offender make that inappropriate.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b11a690e8ba44f8d9a5df8d53b7d43b5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000792\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 10 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000793\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 10.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227541e9095683432682a295c85def6a87\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000794\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 10 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227ec1d421f48d4bec97032fca13b4c193\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ECourt\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000795\u0022\u003Eto add to new subsection (5) of section 41 the words \u201Cunless the  deems it appropriate\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000796\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 10 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225cc29983d8f5491ab14a82b92a96f69c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit from new subsection (5) of section 41 the word \u201Cmust\u201D, and substitute the word \u201Cmay\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000797\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 10 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000798\u0022\u003Eto omit new subsection (6) of section 41.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022858b6a7f6e38485bb76fe460ac953990\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000799\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to clause 10 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022365bd830545a4cc0ac6e7f2064fca0ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit from new subsection (6) of section 41 the word \u201Cnot\u201D, where it first occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000800\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Brent Catchpole to clause 14 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022eb2fcd81846647eba5b0c48d6b5774b7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000801\u0022\u003E omit from new subsection (2)(a), (b) and (c) of section 47 the words \u201Cconstitutes, or may constitute, a contravention of\u201D, and substitute the words \u201Ccontravenes or will contravene\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000802\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 15 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000803\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 15.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022feb16ea8d5924c5390ee945645adaabc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000804\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 15 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022123b020d355c4f2cbabb4df948686c69\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto add to new section 47G the following subsection:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E(3)\tIn the event that no action is taken against any party, the investigation of which the Commission required the supply of information or documents under this section, then the Commission will reimburse the supplier of the information or documents for the reasonable costs of providing the required information or documentation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000805\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000806\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment. \u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294f6fc31543743fda76b04916764c9aa\u0022\u003EConsumer Protection (Definitions ofGoods and Services) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242a5298d43714878bc66c5b6e0cda5aa\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002242c59de046c14a338e260e7b7e45ef6e\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002268de805b12b743edb3e8e145f8227435\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268de805b12b743edb3e8e145f8227435\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E This title is completely inadequate for this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc8af1bdf6d440aea7465c4e9f62d4bc\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223761ee9302ea4167844880edef09dbda\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Labour members immediately start thinking: \u201CMy gosh, the member is on to something!\u201D. We see them\u2014the few there are here\u2014suddenly sticking their heads up, and thinking: \u201CHeck, maybe our Minister has made a mistake.\u201D I have to say the Minister of Consumer of Affairs has made a terrible mistake in suggesting that this is a consumer protection bill. It is not about consumer protection. This bill seriously disadvantages consumers in New Zealand by containing a number of provisions that define certain goods and services as being covered by the relevant principal Act. It should be called the \u201CConsumer Opportunity Denied Bill\u201D. That would be a far better way to describe what is inside it. Over the next few hours, as we discuss the various parts and clauses, it will become evident to anyone who wants to listen that this bill is not good for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E The first point I want to make is about computer software being included as a good. I think that is the right way to go. When consumers buy software, of course they should be able to expect that it will work. Of course they should be able to expect that that software will do the job that it is claimed to do. But in the same bill we see that telecommunications of any form are removed. I do not know how much members on the other side of the Chamber know about modern technology, but let me make it very clear to them that unless there is good telecommunications access, a large amount of the software that those consumers buy will be absolutely useless because it will not work without the telecommunication connection. So the poor old software manufacturers are being beaten about the head and told they have to meet the onerous requirements being put upon them by this bill, but the people who actually deliver their service are not included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESimilarly, I note that water is now included in the bill as a good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223898bcc4dfdd4ac1a6120bc0f8943b80\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf80588c57724d1d998db0dca3ef3eca\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Water. A lot of people will say that that is a good idea, and that of course water that is delivered to people\u2019s homes and residential areas should be of a particular standard. But I come from Christchurch, and we have some of the best water in the world. Guess what? Our water will not comply with the requirements of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec4e058f94994aff8b0334bea92881e8\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebe00b9361a48ca8a709620e7827527\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Because we do not have all sorts of purification chemicals tipped into it. We do not turn on taps in Christchurch and smell chorine. This bill will require that the Christchurch City Council tip buckets of chlorine into our drinking water in order that it comply with the water standards\u2014that it get to the so-called A level\u2014and therefore comply with the bill. I want to know whether Tim Barnett is going to vote for the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill, which, in this particular instance, is a clear attack upon the water that we in Christchurch drink daily, weekly, or as often as we can, whenever we are there. He and I know\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266ff73e6d9b84e1aa4327af71fe95288\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not often for that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8b120c3722c4e91bd7c891563cfe573\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Clayton Cosgrove also knows\u2014no, he probably does not\u2014that when we go to other parts of the country and taste the water, which probably has an A standard, we find that it is full of chemicals, full of all sorts of junk that has been tipped into it. Because in Christchurch we have nothing other than pure water that comes straight out of our beautifully clean aquifers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022625e17c32b4f40ab9fc9d684599c246f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022995d7a78fb7244fa9eeaad506ca2eb79\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014our water will not comply with the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill. So I cannot vote for it. This bill also includes a whole lot of electricity services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022178eb3c2889d47769bba1714cbc0d1e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022178eb3c2889d47769bba1714cbc0d1e3\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition will be strongly opposing not only the title of this bill but the content. During the Committee stage, when we hope the Minister of Consumer Affairs will take a call, we are going to bring to the attention of the Committee a number of examples of the increased cost to consumers that this bill will provide. This bill will increase the cost of services to all New Zealanders, and that is why it would be better described as the \u201CConsumer Protection (Increase in Costs) Bill\u201D. That is exactly what this bill is going to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDuring the debate on the other parts of this bill, we are going to outline the cost to various local authorities in New Zealand of the foolish decision of this Government to include water and waste water as goods under the definitions of goods and services in the various pieces of legislation involved. The consequence of that is to say to the local authorities that supply water to New Zealand consumers that it must be of merchantable quality, and for it to be of such a quality will require a number of local authorities\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c969ab7b16804f3caf6cd0ece2d23d26\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What authorities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237008a5a5d5e4d579fdd91374bff1a71\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014including that member\u2019s local authority\u2014to lift the standard of their water, at a considerable cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b6943a81e3348bbb9ddeca2cd0c08fd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f26fa8404cb496ab241f9a65e8e06cb\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I am prepared to table a document, which relates to the title of this bill, that shows that local government bodies may be faced with a bill of $400 million to lift the level of their water supply so that it meets what is required in this bill. I bet Judith Tizard did not tell the Labour caucus that when she was briefing it on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac999483ba2e491abebb5a5cb6bf44db\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We are debating the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0a689a04bc4b0aa8c689ec6dcdfdc8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: This bill will mean extra costs of $400 million over the next 5 years, and that is why this bill should be called the \u201CConsumer Protection (Rark up the Rates) Bill\u201D. The sum of $400 million\u2014that is what local government says\u2014will be spent on upgrading water supplies in the next 5 years, in order to meet the standards required by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251c1352059224c6090729fcb461e1ecc\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022961cc23d63714055962758f912e323a8\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Georgina Beyer, from the Wairarapa, is absolutely right. The sum of $400 million will be spent over the next 4 years, and that will rark up the rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis title does not reflect what is being proposed in this bill. This bill is about so much more than just adding items to the definitions of goods and services; it is all about gold-plating electricity, gold-plating water, and gold-plating gas, and consumers will pay the cost. I have not met a consumer who has raised with me as an issue the quality of the gas he or she receives. I have not met a consumer who has raised with me as an issue the fact that he or she wants to pay a lot more to get a higher quality of water. I have met very few consumers who are in favour of paying higher electricity prices, but that is what this bill will require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt is wrong for the Government to bring in a bill that does not correctly describe what is being proposed. The bill is complex, and the Opposition requires the opportunity to take multiple calls in order to seek comment from the Minister, because there are many, many New Zealanders who want to know what is going on. Later, I will table documents that show that local authorities that are found to be in breach of the guarantees of acceptable water quality standards may, even though they have told their consumers about the problems with their standards, still be found to be in breach of the quality standards, and subject to considerable liability under these Acts. As a result, they will be forced to spend substantial amounts of ratepayers\u2019 money in order to meet drinking water standards. The Government has not thought through the consequences of this bill. I will also table documents from a gas company in a Labour member\u2019s electorate that argue lucidly why the extension of this bill to gas is unnecessary, has not been thought through, and will cost consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f133f4beaa0e4a589ad85d8d2344171c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, I point out that I have tried to indicate to members the narrowness of the debate on the title. I draw to members\u2019 attention Speaker\u2019s ruling 90/1, which states: \u201C... when a bill has been considered by a select committee the debate on the title clause in committee is limited strictly to the elements of that clause and any amendments proposed to it.\u201D That ruling was made by Mr Speaker Gray, and also by Chairman Braybrooke. I am going to watch that very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00228b2f67fae4c24fb8b808855790fe7f53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b2f67fae4c24fb8b808855790fe7f53\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (NZ National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, if you want to keep within the Standing Orders, listen to this for the next 5 minutes. Here we go! We are debating the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill. Is that OK so far? Very good\u2014I have had the sign-off from the Chairman, so I must be right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217acae989f0142cc998a182cfa058c28\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: You have used 15 seconds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa67b1ac5394172b67a2d3cc617273e\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is OK; it is not a problem. I have had a read of this bill, and I worry about the way in which it is titled. In fact, if we think about the words \u201Cconsumer protection\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fee5b84c7d8422b910afbc40706fcd5\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: What about your mother?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259b3ed376b7b49ec81bb1f51e4bd8ae5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, we will not worry about my mother at the moment. We will worry about protecting my mother a little later on in the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe problem with this bill is that, in itself, it cannot actually work. It cannot protect the consumer. Let me tell members why. This bill talks, for example, about the fact that one of the things the Government wants to do\u2014if members look at the commentary\u2014is class electricity as a good. So the intent of the bill is to ensure that consumers are protected and to make sure that they get the supply they need. So far, so good\u2014that is the purpose of the bill. The problem is that that means if one is to protect consumers to make sure they get the supply, someone has to make the supply. If that provider of the service does not make the supply\u2014if there is a default\u2014the provider then is liable because it has not supplied the service. That is what the bill says. It is called a \u201Cconsumer protection\u201D bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI put it to the Committee that, at the end of the day, someone will be fined. The authority will say to the electricity supplier: \u201CYou haven\u2019t supplied the service to John Carter. He needs the service. You\u2019ve failed; you get fined.\u201D I ask members who will pay. The authority will write a cheque out for $100,000, or whatever it might be\u2014I think we just heard in the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) debate an amount of $200,000\u2014but who will pay? John Carter will ultimately pay, because John Carter will have that amount spread on to his bill and I, myself, will pay for a service I did not receive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ENow I ask the Committee: how can that be called protection? It is not protection. As a consumer of power, I do not feel that under this bill I will be protected, at all. Of course I want the supply, but I do not want it to cost me any more. I do not want some legislation in this Committee, consumer protection legislation, that would add a cost to my bill just because the lights went out at some stage when someone said I had to have them on for 24 hours, and, therefore, the supply authority was fined under the Fair Trading Act. How can that be protection? The authority gets fined\u2014and I pay! I do not think that that is that funny. It is like saying to the neighbour: \u201CYou shoot down to the nearest shop and have a good time, and I\u2019ll pay.\u201D I do not think that that is very much of a protection. [Interruption] Well, I was not going to quite go there, but one can jump to the conclusion. What sort of protection is that? Here I am without a condom and I send a neighbour down the street. I mean, that is not much protection. I tell members to follow the logic. This cannot be a \u201Cconsumer protection\u201D bill. It cannot be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EBy its very principle the legislation might intend to protect the supply. In the case of water it might intend to protect the quality of the supply. It might well intend to protect the discharge of waste water, but, ultimately, it does not protect me from anything at all. I say to the Committee that the Minister has got the title of this bill wrong. If one wanted to call it the \u201CConsumer Continuity of Supply Bill\u201D one might well have a valid argument. But if the Government calls this measure \u201Cprotection\u201D, the bill should be called the \u201CConsumer Protection of Goods Bill\u201D\u2014or of supply, or whatever\u2014not the Consumer Protection (Definition of Goods and Services) Bill. To suggest that the consumer is being protected, which is what this bill suggests, is not right. As a consequence, I want to move an amendment to omit the words after \u201CProtection\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C(Extension of Provisions) Bill\u201D, or omit the words after \u201CConsumer\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C(Miscellaneous Consumer Law Amendment) Bill\u201D, or omit the words after \u201CConsumer\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C(Extension of Definition of Goods and Services) Bill\u201D, because there is no consumer protection in this legislation at all. That is the problem. That is when we run into trouble. We do not have a proper definition of the bill, and it needs to be defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002254f6b8a5317b48a9a2d741a858861e33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254f6b8a5317b48a9a2d741a858861e33\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I will maintain the tightness you asked for. This bill\u2019s title is seriously deceptive. As one goes through each provision, one finds it has exactly the effect that Mr Carter for the National Party just contended, and ACT New Zealand opposes slogan law. This bill talks of protection without doing anything to deal with the matters raised in the first reading debate, in the second reading debate, and, obviously, by the Commerce Committee and some of the submitters to that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIf we look at the select committee\u2019s report, we see that it acknowledges the submissions that concern gold-plating, mentioned by Mr Tony Ryall from National. It simply states blandly: \u201CWe do not consider the guarantee of acceptable quality amounts to a guarantee of \u2018gold plated\u2019 supply.\u201D That goes to the core of whether this is an appropriate title for this bill, because it states that the bill is for consumer protection. In fact, the outcome has to be the prevention of consumers choosing what standard of service they want or what price they pay. If we take the example of electricity supply, the supplier under this bill will be required to deliver a standard of service that will satisfy the hindsight judgment of any disappointed consumer claiming to be reasonable. We do not know what that level of reasonability is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EManufacturers will be responsible, according to the select committee, for failures that result from the acts of third parties or for events beyond human control. What was the classification of the near brownout conditions we had a month ago? Were they beyond human control, or were they a product of the Government deciding to let one of its generators not generate over summer, and wait for 600,000 tonnes of Indonesian coal to arrive? Were they the product of factors outside human control, when we know that if coalmines had been allowed to open\u2014instead of being blocked by the Resource Management Act or having the Hon Chris Carter and his Department of Conservation stop access\u2014there could have been more coal, and there could have been more generation capacity? Is that within human control or outside human control? Certainly our near electricity shortage was very much within political control, and, ultimately, when we imported all those shameful thousands of tonnes of Indonesian coal and started moving them up through the country from Tauranga, it was quite plain that it was within human control to increase the output of power stations south of Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo what is it that suppliers will have to consider when they look at this provision? Is a drought a matter that they will be liable for, or is a drought a matter that the courts will hold is within human control? Why is it not left to consumers, as it is now, to contract with the supplier, and for the supplier to set a price based on the effect that poor service would have on its reputation? Here is a Government that beefed up its Commerce Act as \u201Cconsumer protection\u201D. David Cunliffe even stuck a bizarre clause about consumer protection into the Commerce Act, which no one can understand, and then, the Government having passed it, it has suddenly decided that that will not be enough: \u201CWe know that was just a slogan; we know that was nonsense so we will stick in another piece of nonsense slogan. We will call a bill the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill, and we will persuade consumers that by passing laws we are protecting them.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere are no free lunches, and this bill shows a classic case of what happens when politicians decide not to protect consumers, but to befuddle them. This bill should have been called the \u201CConsumer Deception Bill\u201D. Consumer deception is what happens when people are told that a one-size-fits-all formula will be put across the legislation, and then both consumers and producers are handed over to the mercies of lawyers and their hindsight judgment. When lawyers are the ones who decide what consumers ought to have wanted, then, in hindsight, no one wins. The title we have here, in fact\u2014because the \u201CConsumer Deception Bill\u201D is possibly slightly wrong\u2014should be the \u201CConsumer Confusion Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00224431a0f191174f3495ad5d831e3a7f51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224431a0f191174f3495ad5d831e3a7f51\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I was thinking about the title, \u201CConsumer Increased Costs Bill\u201D, but I concur with my colleague Stephen Franks that \u201CConsumer Deception Bill\u201D is a very appropriate title for this bill. I recall one of Stephen Franks\u2019 comments in an earlier speech he made to the Parliament when he called the legislation the \u201CLaw of Unintended Consequences\u201D. I think that is quite appropriate. So, in referring to this bill as the \u201CConsumer Deception Bill\u201D, I bring members\u2019 attention to the submission from Local Government New Zealand, which asks for the references to water and waste water to be removed from the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt did that specifically for a number of reasons, and I want to draw to members\u2019 attention some of those reasons. We will look first at section 11 of the Consumer Guarantees Act, which is about \u201CGuarantee as to price\u201D. Local Government New Zealand wants to bring to our attention the fact that the setting of councils\u2019 water standards, prices, etc., is determined by their communities of interest. That is particularly important for rural suppliers, because often the rural supply is for their stock as well as for domestic purposes and they accept a standard that is below the norm. If someone decides that he or she does not like that standard and wants to make a claim against a council, what is the council\u2019s position? It concerns one consumer that the council does not deal with on an individual basis. Councils deal with consumers as a whole. The decision with regard to water supply standards for any given area is based on the majority of that community making that decision. Therefore, the contract is entered into by a majority of the community, and not by an individual consumer. The local government authority questioned how that would be dealt with, and felt that the provisions about water and waste water had a cost. If a consumer can challenge a local authority based on that supply provision under section 11, there is a cost to the community if the community is then required to pay for it\u2014if the council is deemed to be liable. There is an added cost because the local authority will then have to expend inordinate amounts of money to bring that water supply up to standard. So those are all costs that come about from one consumer\u2019s ability to make a claim against a local authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b22296df07ad438093ccaa6f5b46de2d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a very narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e7a70e721d14ff99215e0d30f854588\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: OK. I turn to some of the other aspects that Local Government New Zealand raised. Of course, my learned colleague has already mentioned the $400 million bill that Local Government New Zealand has recognised as being a part of this cost. Those are all costs that will go on to consumers as a consequence of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202949fa3a4a64b21b9fdadf7cf4c728a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must talk about the elements of the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207e6050ea7b54a269b88c67a87fe44ff\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: This is the \u201CConsumer Deception Bill\u201D because consumers are not aware of the costs that will be imposed on them through local authorities, as a by-product of this bill. It is a deception. It is a deception on all those consumers. It will be a by-product of this bill, but they are unaware of it. They are unaware of all its inherent costs, which come through because there is uncertainty about how those matters raised by Local Government New Zealand will be dealt with. Section 11 is a prime example of that in relation to price.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESome other matters are also of concern. One is the fitness for a particular purpose contained in sections 6 and 7, particularly section 7. Local authorities are to be subjected to all of those provisions and will have to meet all those standards for one consumer, when the majority of the consumers have made the decision. It comes back to the \u201CConsumer Deception Bill\u201D that Stephen Franks was talking about. What happens if the local authority is supplying water to a particular consumer, there is a force majeure\u2014weather conditions cause the water to be of a standard below that guaranteed\u2014and one consumer holds the rest of the consumers to ransom? It is a deception.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u002262626cbde16b48b5aa570b15b3752b43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262626cbde16b48b5aa570b15b3752b43\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7a1b7f3f094cdfaa82fa4eeae9a2c7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: In the faint hope that someone will speak to the title, I will give the call to the honourable member, John Key.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022089050a48e674cfea702978934004e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022089050a48e674cfea702978934004e5a\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I took from that an inference that no member had yet spoken to the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022125f685f967a4d95a3ae6921c5000777\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order, and that is not the insinuation that was meant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00227873838be8034ad985f838d928ab3ce6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227873838be8034ad985f838d928ab3ce6\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E As the Chairperson quite correctly pointed out, I rise to take part in the title debate on the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill. If I reflect on that title, I can see quite a bit of merit in it. I do not like to agree with the Government and praise it, and I certainly would not do that in normal circumstances, but I can see some logic in the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eb306be51e84a6ab7d88a41fc387d5d\u0022\u003EHon Member \u003C/span\u003E: The member has been lobbied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b988f4187ef4eabbd60c24d75f1f1b0\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have been lobbied from time to time. I can certainly see that there is an attempt in this bill to make the definitions of goods and services clearer, and that some quite interesting goods will be defined as a result of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EA lot of discussion has taken place tonight about electricity. Electricity has been defined as a good, but equally defined under the legislation, with its wonderful title, are gas, telecommunication services, water, and also\u2014most importantly indeed\u2014computer software. Far be it from me to say that the definition of goods and services is not at least discussed in the bill, and it is in some way fitting that those words should be in the title. Like other speakers tonight, where I would express some concern about the title is in respect of the use of the words \u201Cconsumer protection\u201D. One has to ask oneself whether consumers are truly being protected. There is certainly an attempt to protect them through continuity of supply, although, as we have heard from various speakers, it is very unlikely that that would take place. [Interruption] The Labour senior whip needs protection, and I can understand that. However, I am not sure that he is defined as either a good or a service. I am sure he needs protection, but let me not detract from this wonderful dissertation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d1be0cb22b4b82bdc4d14a9eb329f1\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: He provides great services of very high quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227667b2ad0e98411c83dced557546d758\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Does he? I was not aware that he provided services of great quality. I do not know whether consumers are protected by him, but I will take it that they are. Consumer protection conjures up in my mind the concept of someone with a shield, a weapon\u2014some sort of a white knight riding out into the sunset to protect the poor and lonely consumers as they huddle around the fires that are not going, the computer software that has blown up in their faces, the water that is undrinkable, or the gas supply that has been turned off. Will that happen as a result of this bill? I think not. At the end of the day, no one can absolutely guarantee that the lights will be on. The lights are on in the Labour Party, but is anybody home? That is the obvious question, but the answer is not obvious. They have some wonderful members who from time to time make a stunning contribution on the odd bill, but, generally speaking, the lights are on but no one is home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThat has to be very much the same situation under the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill. Where is the discussion about insurance companies and the role they could have played if they had the opportunity to protect consumers? That is what insurance companies do; they offer protection. They do not offer the faint hope that the lights will never go out, that computer software will never go down, that the gas will not work, or that the water will not be of wonderful quality. Insurance companies are there to protect consumers when things go wrong. For the poor consumer who is at the moment huddled around his or her computer, looking to log on; the poor consumer who has turned on the gas fire but it is not working; the poor consumer who is wanting to turn on his or her stove as we speak, the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill is not providing them with that protection, because it cannot if the power is not on. Consumers must therefore look to an alternative source. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI am not sure that this bill does absolute justice to what could take place. I can see that many consumers at the moment are feeling a sense of security, but they have been wronged by this legislation. They will not have continuity of electricity supply, or the quality of water that they require. There is nothing nicer than going home on a cold night and having a glass of water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u002296ca0a21b8ab413b975863d1f74dd158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296ca0a21b8ab413b975863d1f74dd158\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022284ec73949364df6a3208cfd0dc8e2c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000870\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e68b28ae8f8645d6938f61855436f1ca\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eomit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000871\u0022\u003Eto  the words \u201C(Definitions of Goods and Services)\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C(Extension of Provisions)\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000872\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228c4f799896ef4f0daa9bf56e06ee3444\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit the words after the word \u201CConsumer\u201D, and substitute the words \u201CMiscellaneous Consumer Law Amendments\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000873\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a7c6d7469a9c4c76b9dd27c589c0d524\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit the words after the word \u201CConsumer\u201D, and substitute the words \u201CExtension of Definitions of Goods and Services\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000874\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eede0b4ce0c040848af4d8c5abaef4bf\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002277eb8348f5bb4902a19c58684a57bc36\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277eb8348f5bb4902a19c58684a57bc36\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition has moved a number of amendments on the commencement date of this bill, and I would like to explain each of those amendments, which are in the name of the honourable John Carter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOne of the points that we intend to make during the process of this bill is that there is quite considerable concern in local government about the inclusion of water and waste-water provisions in it. Those concerns stem from a number of situations. Possibly the most important of them is that councils feel that they have not had sufficient time to prepare their operations for the passing of this bill. As officials advised the Commerce Committee, many councils supply water that is not of a saleable quality. The document I have here gives the exact phrase: \u201Cwater has to be supplied of an acceptable quality\u201D. We believe it is appropriate to give councils an opportunity to come to terms with the full ramifications of this legislation, and we have an amendment that proposes that. While the Government can get its way with the rest of the extension of goods and services, we would pull out water and waste water, and allow those to be brought into the bill at a later date by way of Order in Council. That would provide that Government and local government\u2014in the sort of love-in partnership that they like to talk about\u2014could equate this bill with the reality of the challenges that face councils that supply water. It would allow them sufficient time to do so before that \u201Cacceptable quality\u201D issue really raises concerns for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe also have another couple of amendments that would move the start-date of this bill beyond the next election, because I am quite confident that the next National-led Government, which will be returned to office in 2005, will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d743a80930764b068502e6ce7dd4f4a2\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Even the Herald says you haven\u2019t got a chance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e843cbcc662540979caffd4d4ba2d052\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not take my directions from the New Zealand Labour Party Herald, thank you very much, or from the Television New Zealand Labour Party. But I know that when the National-led Government is back in power in 2005, we will have to remove those definitions that include water and waste water, because we think they are wrong. We have put forward these amendments for a number of reasons. We want to defer the start-date, so that the next Government can remove the ridiculous parts of this bill in time to avoid a huge consequence for consumers. We have put forward another amendment that would exclude water and waste water from the requirements of the Consumer Guarantees Act, the Commerce Act, and the Fair Trading Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhile it is not particularly relevant to this debate on the commencement, there is a considerable concern amongst members on this side of the Chamber about the proposition that amendments are being made to these bills for the avoidance of doubt. Frankly, there is doubt, and the only way that the Government can claim that those matters are already covered by the bill is through the opinion of officials. That is not good enough, and we will be talking about that later on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhen we look at the costs to local government, we need to remember that we have an official document here that says that local government will have to spend $400 million over the next 5 years on water and waste-water services. That is an incredible cost per ratepayer. We are seeking information to try to equate that for each district in New Zealand, so that members opposite can be aware of what that cost will mean. Because of the confusion about what the cost will be for the Christchurch, Dunedin, and Palmerston North city councils, and other authorities, to bring their water up to an acceptable standard as required by the Consumer Guarantees Act, the Fair Trading Act, and the Commerce Act, we should defer the start of those provisions in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI urge the Committee to support the amendment in the name of Mr John Carter, because it just makes sense. There is considerable confusion. Even the Minister cannot take a call to explain what will happen with water, and that is why this action should be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00229fea6249b26f42bbbe43d30045ae930a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fea6249b26f42bbbe43d30045ae930a\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (NZ National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take an opportunity to speak to this part because, as my friend and colleague the Hon Tony Ryall said, there are three amendments in my name. The first is to ask for the bill not to come into force until 1 January 2006. I ask the Minister to give this amendment serious consideration, because there are some issues of major concern in the bill, and those who are likely to be affected do need time to get a better understanding of it. It seems reasonable that the Minister could give some time for those people to get an understanding of, and therefore a feel for, where this bill will go and what impact it will have. So I say that the date the bill should come into force is 1 January 2006, and that means that when the Government changes at the next election we will be able to repeal this bill so that it will not have any impact, at all. That seems to make a whole lot of sense to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIn the event that I just cannot persuade the Minister to accept that date, I have a fallback date of 1 July 2004. One should always have a back-up. The reason for that is that I know that the Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, is a reasonable person. She considers very sensible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252460f2402894f129aeb8080836a5a8d\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Can you write that one down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faf1ae81c3a3482ab0a4a14be8ea38a5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Now I did not say that\u2014it was not me who said that! This Minister considers serious amendments, and I am absolutely certain she will very likely allow this one to be accepted. Changing the date by 12 months, to 1 July 2004, will not make a significant difference. It is a genuine amendment to allow people at least 12 months to get their heads around what this measure means and what impact it will have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Tony Ryall has already told the Committee, there is the issue around the matter of water and waste water, and the very genuine concern that has been put forward by Local Government New Zealand. I wonder whether the Minister could take a call. In the last few minutes of my speech she may get some advice from the officials as to what communication they had with Local Government New Zealand on this matter. Did the officials fully understand the impact this would have on ratepayers across the country? I am not certain that that has been understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f233c1664f0b4979a1ed7b49f20a732b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It could be $30 million in Dunedin alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef4a6db72514248a25e0718aa742878\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Good grief, my colleague the Hon Tony Ryall is now telling me it could be as much as $30 million in Dunedin! Bless my soul\u2014$30 million! I wonder what the member for Dunedin South, David Benson-Pope, thinks of imposing $30 million on the Dunedin City Council as a consequence of this bill. That is just the Dunedin City Council\u2014just one city. I wonder whether the Minister in the chair has told that member that this bill could have an impact as great as $30 million on Dunedin City.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0b7e7e01dab44908ad149254035d979\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: And $7 million in Southland district.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a67a4c7fc54523ad91a5c8a1c84b2c\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let us just focus on Dunedin City. If it is going to be $30 million in one city alone, over a 3-year period\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211371d8046e14a17af48f28f59a5417c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Until 2005.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288f51a8b064a4b039f98b5fc88dda4fa\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: So it is basically 2 years. That is $15 million extra a year that the ratepayers will have to meet. This is to upgrade the water supply, one assumes, to meet the standards set in this legislation. We have to ask ourselves what is wrong with the water. How many people in Dunedin are dying every day because they drink Dunedin water? I know it does strange things to one or two people who live down there, if we have a look at the member, but the point is that if this bill imposes that sort of cost on the people of Dunedin, they have a right to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIf this bill is passed tonight, at least it is not unreasonable to allow my amendment. At least the people of Dunedin can then be advised of it, plan for it, and put it into their accounts, because this bill will have a significant impact on each of them individually as ratepayers. Maybe the Minister will take a call and explain to me why it is not going to happen like that. I would be pleased to hear. We would probably think it was OK if there were a rational reason for it. If I have it wrong, I would like the Minister to take a call and tell me I am wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u002274af2d7390614e839266598dd2aceb1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274af2d7390614e839266598dd2aceb1e\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Associate Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I thank members for their intense interest in this bill. It is interesting that the Commerce Committee received 22 submissions on it. I understand that 10 requested to be heard. These matters\u2014particularly the one raised by John Carter\u2014were dealt with at some length in the select committee. I think most New Zealanders have got to the point where we are all a bit impatient about local authorities and private water suppliers who are not meeting reasonable standards. I think many have been dragging their heels for many years. I personally remember Consumer magazine many years ago pointing out that local authorities around New Zealand had very variable standards. New Zealanders are entitled to see the intent of the Consumer Guarantees Act that was passed in 1993. That Act was intended to cover all goods and services ordinarily supplied in trade to domestic consumers in New Zealand. A number of areas have been disputed through the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe effect of this bill is to clarify those definitions of goods and services that are covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act, the Fair Trading Act, the Commerce Act, and, in one or two cases, the Sale of Goods Act. I think it is very important that water and waste water are included. I understand that one of the very good reports the select committee heard was from the Ministry of Health. That report informed the committee that the ministry was preparing a Health (Drinking Water) Amendment Bill for introduction to the House. The ministry saw the bill that is before us today as compatible with that bill. That bill would provide a 5-year phase-in period for suppliers to comply with the requirements to introduce public health risk management plans and to take all practicable steps to comply with the drinking water standards. I do not think that is an unreasonable requirement. I think that New Zealanders are sick of the fact that a few local authorities have failed to take good steps. All reasonable people understand that acts of God, accidents, or incidents will happen that will affect the quality of drinking water. The courts have, indeed, found that the demands of one or two for a particular standard of drinking water for a particular purpose will not be enforceable. It is an obligation on those people to do their own water treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003ESo I am very happy with the work of the select committee. It was thorough and it looked at all the issues in the bill before us, the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill. It is a good bill that amends four Acts to make them work alongside each other. It clarifies issues that a variety of court cases have raised. Some of them excluded some goods and services and others included some of them. This will be an excellent consumer protection measure. It is a well-named bill and it is a well-examined bill. It should be passed promptly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a44f9225e532423d9de7d40e7b7c2b75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a44f9225e532423d9de7d40e7b7c2b75\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I concur with my colleagues: we do need to delay the commencement date of this bill. There are some serious questions that need to be answered here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOne of the glaring omissions in this bill is a compliance cost report\u2014there is not one. Absolutely no assessment has been done of what this will mean to the average ratepayer, let alone the consumer. When there is a substantial submission from a body like Local Government New Zealand, we do need to take some heed of that. That body is majorly concerned about the impact, and this bill should be delayed until all the questions asked by Local Government New Zealand have been answered. It has asked a huge number of questions and it has not had an answer. How could it possibly get an answer when the Government cannot even include a compliance cost report in its presentation of a bill? I thought that was mandatory; maybe I am wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis is not necessarily about standards, but the question of water standards has failed to be defined. A local authority has a range of different standards going from (a) to (e). In a rural area it is possible to accept a rural water supply that does not actually meet a potable water standard. The local body does not have to meet a particular standard. However, if the community accepts a rural water supply for animal consumption and one consumer says, \u201CI\u2019m sorry, that is not acceptable\u201D, then that one consumer gets the opportunity to hold the rest of that community to ransom. Not only that, but section 11 of the Consumer Guarantees Act states that if a consumer deems the cost of that water to be unreasonable, he or she can refuse to pay. Where will that leave a local authority, when it has a responsibility to the community as a whole? Its contract is with the community as a whole. The question has not been answered about which Act will prevail in that situation\u2014the Rating Powers Act or the Consumer Guarantees Act. That question has not been answered by the Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, and I think it would be good for her to answer some of the questions that have been raised by Local Government New Zealand. It is majorly concerned, and that is not the only question it has raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIt has also looked at the costs that will be incurred as a result of this bill. I have here a paper provided by my learned colleague the Hon Tony Ryall, which states: \u201CThe cost of upgrading all of the water supplies in the country has been estimated at about $750 million.\u201D We have gone from the $400 million identified in the Local Government submission\u2014recognising that it was $30 million for the Dunedin water supply alone\u2014and now we are looking at an estimated cost of $750 million. Upgrading a small water supply can cost upwards of $2 million if the supply is to meet the upper range of the standards, and depending on how a local authority is structured, that can be a huge burden on a small community, with the ones that suffer being those that are on a fixed rate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThose are the very reasons that it should have been explored and a compliance cost report carried out. If a report was done, it should have assessed all those impacts and worked in conjunction with local government. That is one of the key reasons that the commencement date should be set way out into the future. A compliance cost report needs to be done. The Government should be working in tandem with Local Government New Zealand in assessing what this will mean to ratepayers, which Act will prevail\u2014the Rating Powers Act or the Consumer Guarantees Act\u2014and why the water and waste-water provision is not incorporated into the Local Government Act of 2002, which has recently been passed. In my view, it has been a failure on the part of the Government to adequately consult Local Government New Zealand on all those aspects and to answer its questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ENational initially supported this bill to go to the select committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ca83395723470f9d46bb2f3233c505\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: National sneers and derides at local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b6dbb0d9a23438ba75f7aca303bb53a\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: We hold local government in high regard, and one of the reasons\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce32c05f0f94e088562989367f77dfa\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208699c6ecbbc4fedb315cda3e678ad50\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we do. Absolutely. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00220d9b9fc5edc045f78424f8bb69c50423\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d9b9fc5edc045f78424f8bb69c50423\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Will it be your practice to allow Ministers in the chair to use the microphone to make derogatory comments about members on their feet, and to question their intention and their integrity in the Committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a7f8849d93a4ea38455582c39c344a8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. I had my hand on the microphone button.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b1f1942dc4403ea2046a39551f9073\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b1f1942dc4403ea2046a39551f9073\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. What about getting your hand off the button and on the pulse, because the Minister was extremely insulting to the National Party, and we would like a withdrawal and an apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a299391714104b37907f540e6f9aeac7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: As far as I am concerned, there was an exchange between the two members, and it was robust debate. I did not take any offence at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222ecb7d1e40af45c2b59f6a5c86a5d164\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ecb7d1e40af45c2b59f6a5c86a5d164\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. With all due respect to the Chair, it is the National Party that has taken offence. If members take offence, members\u2019 words must be accepted, and I believe it is incumbent upon you as the Chairperson of the Committee to require the Minister to stand, withdraw, and apologise. Otherwise, where does decorum go?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228848adaa75fc4fa6a6971e458407121a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: If the member has taken personal offence, I ask the member to withdraw.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd893f0a620a491e90bbac0eadb9655b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd893f0a620a491e90bbac0eadb9655b\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I withdraw. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002258a0ae5179974f45aad25c9c1d8ee045\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258a0ae5179974f45aad25c9c1d8ee045\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I do take offence, because I hold local government in great regard and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231f97463399a40a290b4211aaa81fd14\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the member that under Speakers\u2019 Rulings offence must be taken at once, not later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002287a65c3a2d48413ca25537c93eee403b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287a65c3a2d48413ca25537c93eee403b\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to consider the commencement date of the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill. This is the bill that does what the drafters of the Consumer Guarantees Act deliberately decided not to do back in 1993: it overextends what might have been a good idea for a standard form of contract for consumer services, whereby consumers would have been able to shop around, into areas where, in effect, the service has to be universal. The introduction of this bill should be deferred because it will have so many unintended effects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAlthough the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard, may not be knitting today, I am quite sure that she cannot have paid much attention to this bill. She cannot have considered that there will be a host of unintended consequences when the bill commences, like that faced by the \u201CPeople\u2019s Republic of Christchurch\u201D in its recycling scheme under the Consumer Guarantees Act. The Christchurch worthies set up a recycling scheme, which was running in very good order until someone found that, with the whiteware and other products that were being recycled with volunteer labour\u2014and, indeed, the volunteers were eventually being paid for their labour\u2014they fell foul of the so-called consumer protection laws. They could not satisfy the after-sales service requirement, they could not give a warranty as to merchantable quality, and even though people were perfectly prepared to take the risk of low quality in return for low price, they were not allowed, under that so-called consumer protection law, to contract out of the obligations that simply could not be satisfied by a recycling scheme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI urge the Minister to take the National Party amendments seriously. She may consider that they are just intended to harass, or to reduce or defer the inevitable, but the inevitable might mean, for example, that the Minister could get a chance for local authorities to look at whether their ratepayers really do want to have a one-size-fits-all warranty slapped across the supply of water. Local authorities should have an opportunity to deal with what this bill requires\u2014to go out to the consumers, and to give them a full description of the risks they face, so that the reasonable consumer will not be fronting up and claiming a guarantee, or an obligation on the part of the local authority, the electricity supplier, or the gas supplier, that is far more expensive to everyone than they would ever have dreamt of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIf this bill\u2019s commencement were to be deferred it would allow the principal Act, the Consumer Guarantees Act, to operate in the way that has been contemplated, which would mean that the suppliers could go out and use some of the exceptions in the Act. For example, they could make a statement about the goods on any packaging or labelling, or a representation about the goods that would notify the consumer of any defects that may have been specifically drawn to their attention by the manufacturer. Is the Minister comfortable that local authorities and the other suppliers of those services have had an opportunity to consider those exceptions, given that this bill was introduced back in 2001, that it sat waiting as a slogan all that time, that it had a pathetic consideration by a very weak select committee, to which the smartest and brightest members were too busy to turn up, and that there is no urgency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266feebd77ead47e1b370b5564d7be15b\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Who are the smartest and brightest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f88dbff7032479ba85b8b9f01ed5da8\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the Hon Richard Prebble. He was too busy to turn up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe select committee has not properly grappled with the issues that were raised in submissions. If this bill were to be deferred long enough for the people who will become subject to it\u2014and for those who, in turn, will get the cost of an overreach in the guarantee\u2014to go through and make sure that all their standard-form contracts, labelling, warnings, and defect descriptions were in order, there would be advantage to everyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022978fb3a7e9fc48f69b602e436616db5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022978fb3a7e9fc48f69b602e436616db5f\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002235c9191805ba4b66899d38c2ba7170d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235c9191805ba4b66899d38c2ba7170d1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Although I would like to say that this bill should never commence, that it should have no commencement date, I accept that the Government is hell-bent on driving it through this Committee. I want to know why Tim Barnett, Ruth Dyson, Lianne Dalziel, and Clayton Cosgrove are going to vote for such a patently anti-Christchurch bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c94bc76bcc48468eedef9edb747bbb\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edfee771d034444886555d9e857867f6\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister shrugs her Auckland shoulders in a sort of mock profanity, but the truth is that, coming from Auckland, she has no idea what exists south of Wellington. She is a unique Aucklander because she gets down to Wellington on a regular basis, although it is not as regular as some might expect. As the previous speaker pointed out, we have a bill here that will absolutely destroy the recycling programme in Christchurch. Countries all over the world have problems with the disposal of whiteware. A programme was put together in Christchurch that will enable those who are less well off to have a fridge that might last an extra 6, 8, 12, or maybe even 24 months, but, no, that programme has been scuttled, sent off to the landfill, because of a bill like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAs I said before, there is also the issue of water. This bill will cost the Christchurch City Council\u2014and, at the end of the day, that is every ratepayer in Christchurch\u2014$5.241 million to comply. What does the council have to do to comply? It has to supply to the community water that meets or surpasses New Zealand drinking-water standards. On the face of it, everyone would say that is a good idea, a wonderful idea, but in order to meet New Zealand drinking-water standards, the Christchurch City Council would need to tip into the water supply large quantities of chemicals designed to take out all sorts of nasties that do not exist in Christchurch water. That is why I will not support this commencement date. A group of Auckland MPs have decided that they want to lower Christchurch drinking-water standards to the same level as their own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022933c772436014f0696096242845bdcbb\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: They wouldn\u2019t even drink tap water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cddc4cea37bf4a02ab32057ed9525c66\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There we are! My colleague Stephen Franks has announced that Aucklanders do not drink tap water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb22d6952d674dd0b0a04939ebafb31c\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: They do; all the time. I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ea3877cc95b41e4863bbf503a9c5f8e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That may explain a lot. The Minister says she drinks Auckland tap water\u2014there is a perfect out. I do not want to get into slagging off various other communities, but I do want to make the point that Christchurch has the best drinking water of any city or any province in the country. Marc Alexander, the United Future member, nods to that, but he will vote for this bill, which requires the Christchurch City Council, at an expense of some $5.241 million, to tip additional chemicals into our water. Why should anybody who comes from the city of Christchurch be expected to support this commencement date? I do not think there is any reason whatsoever to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI am happy about the waste-water provisions in this bill, and I am happy about a number of the other consumer protections that exist in this bill. But it is the stupidity of including something like water; the stupidity of excluding State generators as manufacturers of electricity from any scrutiny; and the idiocy of taking out of the bill the telecommunications broadband around the country that also make it totally unacceptable to support the bill\u2019s introduction on the date proposed. I would like the Minister to stand up and tell us whether the officials did any sort of analysis of water quality throughout the country. Were those New Zealand standards\u2014which, incidentally, give Christchurch water a rating of B\u2014well considered, at any time, by the officials? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022d69c29cc442d4bc290ee50a3efcf689b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d69c29cc442d4bc290ee50a3efcf689b\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a call on this bill. Although I was not here to take a call on the title, I will say that there could not be a title that was more in opposition to what this bill proposes to do. However, we are now debating the commencement date, and as my colleague said previously, National does not support the commencement date, and there are a number of reasons for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe supported the bill in its first and second reading, and we did so because we thought that the underlying intention of the bill was right. But now we have it here for its Committee stage, and presently for its third reading, and we have come to the conclusion that if the bill were to pass there would be too many unfavourable repercussions. The bill has a reasonable intention, but National thinks that the unintended consequences will be substantial, and we do not support the commencement date for that reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI make reference to the amendment that has been proposed by my colleague John Carter. There are three parts to it. The first puts the commencement date out to 1 January 2006, and the reason is that, first of all\u2014[Interruption] Well, of course, we will be the Government by then, and we will repeal it. Underlying this debate is the concern that this bill does not protect the consumer, at all. Indeed, it will lead to increased compliance costs for the electricity and gas suppliers. Let us be honest\u2014they are not going to absorb those costs. They will pass them on to the consumer, and that is why I said at the beginning of my speech that the title of this bill is so wrongly stated. There is no protection, at all, for the consumer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EMy colleague John Carter has proposed that we change the commencement date to 1 January 2006.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade240fc2cd14b1b8c91b67752118082\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e7b7d0f584b4c79a43708778438ab81\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it does. My colleague John Carter would not have proposed it if it did not make sense. It makes absolute sense. We have a situation where Dunedin is budgeting $30 million to upgrade its water to meet the quality required by this bill, and that is a huge amount of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253edfea430cb472d9cb2376cd10d5ff6\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: It has been doing it for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238294b55781f42a093af60b8fb784be9\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: It is a huge amount of money\u2014and why should Dunedin be forced to do that when we could come up with a better result if we thought about what we are doing here a lot more carefully?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461921a99deb47d3945ab3037a5a562b\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Dunedin wouldn\u2019t have to do that if it hadn\u2019t been made to sell its dam by the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ef56f1c0f848148d5c4e1d90204bf4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Chairman, is that member going to take a call, or is he just trying to close this debate down?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e735eeff707540b4a0495d9872ad50e5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: He may do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eb769cad68f4d9c8adf5d3682ebc2fa\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: He may do, but my experience is that he never does, so I would appreciate it if he would let me have the rest of my say in peace. In any event, as I say, that is what Dunedin is budgeting for. Goodness knows what all the other local authorities will have to budget for this, but suffice it to say that if Dunedin is budgeting $30 million, then the major metropolitan areas will have to budget that same amount, if not more, and I do not think that is at all fair, when, ultimately, the cost of that will be passed on to the consumer. There was an issue about the Rotorua eastern suburbs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218405a11fcf3404db21ed15be843fce5\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It gets an \u201CE\u201D for water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222645de1355bc4967b1e139bb63b3ee5e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: It gets an \u201CE\u201D for water quality. How much will that cost Rotorua? Perhaps the member for Rotorua will be able to take a call and enlighten us on that, because that is a real concern. Smaller places like Rotorua cannot afford those sorts of costs. Rotorua might look like a wealthy place, but it is not. There is a lot of unemployment there, and this Government has not done anything much about that since it has come in. I come back to my original point, which is that National thinks that the commencement date should be delayed. If the Parliament is not in agreement with a delay to 1 January 2006, then it should be delayed until 1 July 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002227bf9dd9cb5e402d8efa496ecd970340\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227bf9dd9cb5e402d8efa496ecd970340\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022276ebfa4cf4a4410aea805afcef2e1c5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000950\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of John Carter to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002296b8aaa511a244feaa8f0a98b384174a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Cthe day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C1\u00A0January 2006\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000951\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of John Carter to clause 2 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225223340932e6434199cc85452e4079c4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Cthe day after the date on which it receives the Royal assent\u201D, and substitute the words \u201C1\u00A0January 2004\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000952\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of John Carter to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b06bf12711e4febb19243fe2c2804ec\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto add the words \u201C, except for provisions affecting water and wastewater which will come into effect by Order in Council\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223fd7e2fbbe7c4c37ae275ab8c58b756c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a8a571b6c4b4e6292bffb4a4cc60a7a\u0022\u003EPart 1  Commerce Act 1986\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00227c9590c5e12841d199ed6d3774134f6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c9590c5e12841d199ed6d3774134f6a\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition is strongly opposed to Part 1. We do not support the incorporation of gas, electricity, water, and software in the Commerce Act, nor do we support the inclusion of those items as services for the purposes of the Commerce Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe have very real concerns, for example, about including electricity in the legislation. As I think the New Zealand Law Society pointed out to the select committee, of its nature electricity is not the tangible sort of good that the Commerce Commission should be dealing with. The Minister will require such a high standard of electricity delivery that companies will not be able to meet it. Electricity is a good in a less than perfect way. For example, if a lines company fails and one gets an unplanned outage, how can that be deemed to be of an acceptable quality? Yet there will be a liability there for the electricity company. There might be a planned interruption to supply, for which notice has been given, to allow for maintenance work to be carried out. That is not the sort of thing that happens with any other goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIf members look at what this bill is proposing, they will see that it states that those goods will be fit for the purposes for which they are supplied, acceptable in appearance and finish, free from minor defects, and safe and durable. None of those things can be applied to electricity. Electricity is not \u201Cacceptable in appearance and finish\u201D. Can it be free of minor defects, safe, durable, and fit for the purpose for which it is supplied? Maybe, but because of its unique features, electricity cannot be geared to the specific needs of consumers. Electricity is inherently unsafe and can only be made safe by infrastructure and equipment, which are safe services in themselves. It is inappropriate to try to include intangible items like electricity and gas in this legislation. The Government has agreed that telecommunications is an intangible that should not be included under the definition of a good. We say that the same should apply to electricity and gas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI stand with the New Zealand Law Society, which told the select committee that the provisions in this bill are unlikely to provide any real advantages to consumers. As Mrs te Heuheu said, the extra costs that will be put on electricity companies will be passed on to consumers. When there is an outage and people\u2019s computers lose information, fridges blow, or microwaves fail, consumers and shareholders will pay because of this legislation. It means that prices will rise. Not only will the price of electricity rise because of the special tax that the Government is putting on\u2014that is, one of the 15 new taxes or levies that the Government has applied since it came to power\u2014but there will also be an indirect form of tax from this bill, in the sense that prices will go up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe concerns we have made known in respect of electricity can also apply to water. In order to get its water quality up to the level required by this bill, the Dunedin City Council is budgeting $30 million in the next 2 years. In Motueka the council is budgeting $6 million\u2014that is, $100 a ratepayer\u2014to get its water up to the sort of quality that this bill requires. We know that Banks Peninsula is bracing itself for a $4.5 million drinking water upgrade under the proposed new laws\u2014Banks Peninsula, $4.5 million; Motueka, $6 million; Dunedin, $30 million. That is what this bill is doing\u2014so much so that Mrs te Heuheu will table a document that estimates that it could cost $750 million for local authorities to bring their water supplies up to the level that will be required by these bills\u2014that is, the Fair Trading Act, the Commerce Act, and the Consumer Guarantees Act. This Government does not realise what it is doing with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022888d6dccc3a04434854d8936b048c0f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022888d6dccc3a04434854d8936b048c0f3\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am rising to speak to Part 1, because I have just listened to National\u2019s Tony Ryall speak about how unstable, unsafe, and unreliable electricity is. Sure it is dangerous, but I have to remind Mr Ryall and the National Party that Auckland suffered huge blackouts during the 1990s. It was not as a direct result of the weather, or of anything other than poor management and poor supply. The poor supply was a case of the companies holding back on their upgrades of the lines because they wanted to retain all their profits, and they failed to see a catastrophe coming. All of a sudden, one line blew. That put extra pressure on other lines, and they blew. As a result, Auckland was without power. Generators from outside Auckland and from overseas had to be brought in. A ship was even docked in the port to supply power to Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIf that is the direct result of bad weather and bad supply, then I really have to question Mr Ryall\u2019s intentions. We all accept that electricity is unstable, but it also relies on the good management of the supply companies. In that case, New Zealand First supports this part. We see it as providing much-needed security for electricity supply as a good and a service. We therefore support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223112cf9a98674aa8a03d2c67cee2abf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223112cf9a98674aa8a03d2c67cee2abf0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 1, I want to pick up on a couple of comments made by my colleague Brent Catchpole, who was on the Commerce Committee right through the process of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eb995f45c294c5d8e502e3b6faa6733\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Only the latter part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd3268f2c8c34bfc9d08d5348370cf17\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps that explains some of the member\u2019s contribution tonight. One of the interesting things about this bill is that the term \u201Cmanufacturer of electricity\u201D is not in the bill. \u201CSupplier\u201D is there, as is \u201Cprovider\u201D, so that captures the lines companies and local energy companies. But the manufacturer\u2014the State generator\u2014is out of it. The reason is that this Government knows that the whole infrastructure of electricity in this country has turned into custard in the last 4 years, and we have seen no new investment in generation. For each of those 4 years we have needed some 150 megawatts of new generation, about 450 megawatts in total, and what have we had? We have had about 100 megawatts. If this bill had been effective on the manufacturers, the generators, from the start of this winter, then the Government would have faced a very huge bill, indeed, as consumers decided to exercise their protection under this legislation against the manufacturers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo I think we are seeing here another one of the Labour Party\u2019s \u201Cdress it up and hope it looks good\u201D types of bills. As our colleague Tony Ryall has pointed out\u2014that is, the Hon Tony Ryall, the last great Minister of Commerce that this country has had\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d630cdb3062c49619a0fdbe4a2694d8e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I was never Minister of Commerce; I was the Minister of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab279c7ad757426f8c59cd56c8284cd1\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: He was the Minister of Justice, but as such he knew more about commerce than the present Minister knows about her own city. It is unbelievable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe real point here is that in a few minutes Georgina te Heuheu will table a document that outlines the extraordinary costs that this legislation will put upon South Island councils, in places where there is no worry about water quality\u2014although they most definitely have a worry about water quantity. We will see Marc Alexander, Clayton Cosgrove, Tim Barnett, Ruth Dyson, Lianne Dalziel, and quite probably Damien O\u2019Connor all voting for this huge impost upon South Island ratepayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f5f0ae15854019b9605edc63ecba16\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7220851e5724ae99f4a1af6e307e225\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The best I can estimate is that their vote tonight will cost their constituents and mine some $70 million. [Interruption] Clayton Cosgrove sits over there and says his constituents can afford it. The good citizens of Waimakariri can dive into their pockets and pull out $70 million, and he says that it does not matter. Well, it does matter, because Canterbury has some of the best-quality water in the world, and I will keep saying that right throughout the debate on this bill. By the end of it, some Labour members may understand the point that by saying the whole country has to have the same water standard as Auckland\u2019s, some of us will get done. That is just unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI return for a moment to the issue I spoke of earlier in the day\u2014telecommunications. Telecommunications is not included in the bill. This Government touts constantly the opportunities that this country will have from the knowledge wave\u2014from the great technological advance that this country is likely to experience at some point. But this bill does not cover broadband Internet access. If we happen to live in the right part of the country, we will receive whatever the provider of the service gives us, and we will have no right to question the quality of that. Worse than that, the people who live in some parts of the country, particularly in rural New Zealand, will be out of luck totally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002206b4928e703244e09911c88dd6adf763\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206b4928e703244e09911c88dd6adf763\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party to address Part 1, which in clause 4 amends the Commerce Act by including in the definition of goods \u201Cgas and electricity\u201D, and, \u201Cto avoid doubt, the supply of electricity, gas, telecommunications, or water\u201D in the definition of services in that Act. I would be very interested to know the effect of putting those terms into that Act. That seems to me to be a fair question to ask of the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard. The Minister has a whole raft of officials who have been patiently waiting, with very little prospect of being required to give advice throughout this debate. Given that Labour is classically and typically uninterested in the welfare of workers, it does not mind wasting the officials\u2019 time. It knows that they do not have to be paid. They are on a salary and probably do not get either overtime or holidays in lieu, so the Government is therefore quite happy to have them sitting here doing nothing, while the Minister does not ever bother to answer questions or to participate in this debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229c014ab6535497a9a2a37279608fea1\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fad101d8eb25472196b0c267669fde67\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Not in this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIn this debate a series of questions has been asked about just how it can be described as protection to add into the various Acts provisions that will require one-size-fits-all liability for standardised services, where there are standard form contracts already in use, and where usually if there is a failure, the loss will simply be spread back across the community. How can that advantage the community? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EMr Catchpole mentioned, for example, the power outages in Auckland. If the bill had been in force and it had been held that there was a breach of one of the warranties, or that in some way liability should flow from the failures he mentioned in Auckland, what would have happened? That is very instructive. The Minister should consider that, and explain to us just how the position would have differed if this part of the bill had been in force during the failure of supply in the electricity industry in Auckland 5 years ago. That would probably help everyone in this Chamber to understand better why we are ramming this bill through under urgency. After all, it was introduced in 2001, referred to the Commerce Committee in October 2001, sat with nothing being done about it right through the election in June-July 2002, and has finally come back to this Parliament to be shoved through under urgency by a Minister who does not think that it needs to be explained to anyone\u2014not to this House and not to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAll that the Government thinks it needs to do is to put a slogan in the title of the bill and then to go ahead with steps that were taken, or were avoided, for very good reason when the Commerce Act, the Fair Trading Act, and the Consumer Guarantees Act were drafted. The amendment of those three Acts by the insertion of these services, most of which are still publicly owned, does nothing except to give an opportunity to shift loss, usually from those who can best afford to bear it to those who cannot. If the insertion of these clauses into the Commerce Act is intended to mean there will be new remedies that are not presently available for anti-competitive conduct, surely someone at some stage could have explained that. Nothing in the select committee\u2019s commentary on the bill even attempts to explain why these provisions are to amend the Commerce Act. The Minister has had officials sitting there all evening, who could easily have been called upon to advise\u2014it may be that only a few words from the Minister could explain to the Committee what this bill is about. But certainly, from my knowledge of the Commerce Act\u2014which at this distance is not as fresh as it once was, but I suspect I certainly have more familiarity with that Act than most members do\u2014I cannot fathom any advantage that Part 2 gives to anyone. I certainly cannot work out from the commentary of the select committee what advantage it gives to anyone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a76c146824ac4d4b89aee2cede1c7e7c\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c70211739cd74497990e8d7e856f3d0c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I could probably say the same thing when we get to Part 2; it will be just as true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut certainly, it does absolutely baffle me as to just what Part 1 will achieve, other than adding to the advantage of a political slogan that makes it possible for the Government to say it has amended X number of Acts and has added consumer protection Y number of times. The Minister in the chair may well have an easy answer. It may be that I have overlooked something that I should have known. But certainly, after coming to this bill without having sat on the committee it is completely baffling as to what will be achieved by sticking these provisions into the Commerce Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI also say that the drafting is a little bit of a puzzle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c00590e2fdfa4cf39e63e9dbbef14bd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c00590e2fdfa4cf39e63e9dbbef14bd4\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00225358e9414e5d4e88bad7ffeb2e1a0952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225358e9414e5d4e88bad7ffeb2e1a0952\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Two of my colleagues have already signalled that I will seek leave to table some papers, so I shall do that at the beginning of my contribution. First, I seek leave to table a report from the Southland Times of 30 October 2002 headed \u201CWater standards low\u201D, part of which refers to a report that the cost of upgrading all the water supplies in this country has been estimated at about $750 million. The second one is an extract of figures from the Rotorua area that refer to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EClause 4, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, is where a lot of the trouble starts. For the first time, water is included as a good. As I said, that is where local authorities see enormous difficulties for themselves, and that is exactly where the National Opposition sees negative spin-offs to consumers right across the country. Clause 4(1)(b)(vi) states: \u201Cto avoid doubt, water and computer software\u201D. So they are included, and one knows straight away that that provision is to be regarded with some suspicion. Actually, no suspicion is required, because it signals immediately to water suppliers just exactly what they are in for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Southland District Council\u2019s group asset manager, one Dave Adamson, said that the proposed legislation makes the current guidelines become standards, thereby putting an onus on the council to take all reasonable steps to supply wholesome water and all practicable steps to comply with the guidelines. That implies a duty to undertake risk management plans, of course\u2014because that is what it does\u2014and liability for relative penalties should anyone get sick or die as a result of drinking contaminated water. It is clear that countrywide, the water standards are low. That is why we proposed to have the commencement date of this legislation put out to 2006\u2014to give councils a reasonable time to get themselves organised for it. But that is not to be, because this Government is doing what it is good at under urgency, which is bringing in legislation for which nobody is really prepared, and for which the overall impacts are not at all clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Southland District Council had planned to have all 13 of its water schemes upgraded by 2009, at an estimated cost of more than $2 million. Two have been done, but the council\u2019s guess is that this legislation will probably require the completion of all 13 schemes by 2006 or 2007. That is a very tight time frame. As I say, the council had estimated it could do that work by 2009. So clearly this legislation will result in huge, quite substantial, additional costs. Who will carry that cost? The consumers will carry it. That is what this issue all boils down to. As I say, the local authorities have not even estimated what some of their schemes will cost to upgrade. That is a problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, and as the paper that I have tabled shows, the situation in Rotorua is not good. It is not a wealthy area, by any means. A number of suburbs register very low on the scale of water quality\u2014at grade D. That standard is deemed to be low quality. So somebody has to pay for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d24e7ca617e2452ab489c1819f92ab8f\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Grade E is the lowest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273456bd75271463185888b7f72cb163e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: I am informed by my colleague Sandra Goudie that grade E is the lowest. So grade D is almost up there. Somebody has to pay for this work, and we know who that will be: the poor old consumer. The bill does not give protection to consumers, at all. It will lead to increased compliance costs for electricity and gas suppliers. Once again, the consumer will pay. To include water in this way, when we all know that water standards across the nation are relatively low, is not fair. It is not right, and it does not give councils time to upgrade their schemes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002250942112102743eb8888ef9843b6961f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250942112102743eb8888ef9843b6961f\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002257aa62e07ef144af9a10fd90f6823f59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257aa62e07ef144af9a10fd90f6823f59\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson): \u003C/span\u003EI find it extraordinary that as we debate Part 1, extending the Consumer Guarantees Act to new services, this is occurring on the same day that the Government is passing a law stating that anything that a group of officials within the Immigration Service do that was wrong, erroneous, or mistaken is now to be all OK, but when that situation applies to somebody else, the Government wants to have a different set of rules. I simply ask the Government this evening to show some consistency. It seems to me that it is highly duplicitous to say, on the one hand, that a council when providing water services has to meet these additional burdens about quality and all those things, and, on the other hand, when it comes to a service that is provided by the Government itself, like immigration, to say it does not want that to come into the consumer protection and other areas covered by this bill. Not on your life! This is an example of the double standards that we see over and over again from this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThat is also interesting to me because I sat on the Local Government and Environment Committee when it dealt with the new local government legislation around water supplies. We were told water was an essential service, and we should not have any damn private enterprise providing water in New Zealand. It was only late last year that we passed ridiculous laws to restrict the private sector from being able to participate in the provision of water services, even in rural communities. I think we showed at the time that half a million New Zealanders receive such water supplies. But the Government\u2019s ideological view was that water was a public service that could only be provided by councils, and must be governed under the Local Government Act. Then we come to this bill, and notably to Part 1, where it shows the Government has changed its mind. Water is to be just another tradable service. I tell the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard that she should get her head clear. Either it is one thing or the other. Water supply is either a monopoly service to be provided through democratically elected local councils, or it is a service to be traded. It seems to me that in this part we have a serious contradiction with the very provisions that were argued with such passion, but with such ideological stupidity, by Labour as recently as late last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to know just how much this legislation will cost. My colleagues Georgina te Heuheu and Tony Ryall have been asking questions about the cost\u2014the bill\u2014for this. We have not heard an answer on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eef4954de134bbb94a8a099be5be204\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It could be up to $750 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166c6413683e4c94acac41a9fe4bf120\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Tony Ryall tells me that the cost New Zealand \u2013 wide of this provision is $750 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271a07fbc35794dae9b0700e93a435c38\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: He just made it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be5e8b88acf44644a9ac4e41de3e54e7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t say that. A report was tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226db853bcb4ee403ba6ecad41756c15d5\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that. What does the Minister think the cost is? Can the Minister answer the question of what the cost of Part 1 will be for the water supplies around New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211df4de6731e422bba5721cd46294886\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s been reported at $750 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1a8fd479ab84914976013fa9b1f8100\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Tony Ryall, without any of the resources that the Minister has, and without the hundreds of bureaucrats\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225439a7d0616249da917316eff8ebfdb4\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Just the Parliamentary Library.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222fe6bd28cf14f91bee5bfbdd7610c6f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: He has had the Parliamentary Library find out that the figure is $750 million. If the Minister wants to say that figure is not correct, we are prepared to consider and contest it. What is her figure? The silence is deafening; the Minister has no idea! She is proposing that this Parliament passes laws that will impose significant costs on New Zealanders, without having any idea, even faintly, of what it will cost them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that is not good enough. Where is the cost compliance report? When will New Zealanders find out the cost\u2014the bill\u2014for this part? I ask the Minister to perhaps seek some advice from the officials who are kindly in the Chamber this evening, and to ask that question of them. Or is she another one of those arrogant Labour Ministers who come down to this Chamber and do not think they have to answer the real questions, to which New Zealanders deserve answers? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1ca08a286746948914b783922293e3\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s a mini-Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4fe9b8cc7574d6b9a59b13a5ca46132\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I am told she is a mini-Minister. I am prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt, and to listen to the answer to that question. I say the public of New Zealand deserves to know just what costs this Minister is imposing on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022765253b480264ff192903ab30d5a1cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022765253b480264ff192903ab30d5a1cbd\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002216b4088922cc47b68f8adddf3011ac4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216b4088922cc47b68f8adddf3011ac4c\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I greatly appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak to Part 1, because I too have some further concerns to raise about local government. I acknowledge the fine contribution made by the Hon Nick Smith. He raised a really important point about this bill treating water as a tradable commodity. I understood that this Government did not seek to do that with water supplied by local authorities; that it wanted the ownership to remain with local authorities, for communities. But I do not see that intention being signalled in the tenor of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn Part 1 we see water described as a good. Local government is concerned about water being identified as a good, particularly with regard to sections 6 and 7 of the Consumer Guarantees Act and the guarantees that are to be provided in relation to goods. Local Government New Zealand outlined in particular the guarantees dealing with goods\u2014for instance, those relating to titles, descriptions, and samples. I guess local government could give the worst water samples in the world, yet its water would be considered safe. As for guarantees as to repairs and spare parts, I do not know where spare parts enter into it, and, clearly, Local Government New Zealand did not know that, either. It was concerned that water that was identified as a good was not excluded from those guarantees identified in sections 6 and 7. Perhaps the Minister in the chair would like to take a call to explain why there was no identification of how water was going to be addressed with regard to those guarantees, or, indeed, why water could not have been excluded from those guarantees. Of course, we have no idea of what is specifically meant by \u201Cwater\u201D itself, and there is no splitting out of what is provided in terms of an urban water supply and a rural water supply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn considering these guarantees, we do have a concern about them. For example, we have a concern about the guarantee as to acceptable quality, and ask whether water will comply with that guarantee if it complies with the yet-to-be-promulgated drinking water standards that it is intended will raise the threshold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E The standards are meant to detail how to assess the quality and safety of drinking water, and thereby reduce the risk. The standards are also intended to define drinking water that is intended to be for human consumption. However, there was a court case in which the court observed that those with special needs for water of greater purity than that required by the wider community\u2014of course, we are talking about an agreement entered into by the wider community and the local authority, and that is decided by a majority not by an individual consumer\u2014can actually put in their own facilities to purify the water to a greater degree. Here we have water being identified as a good, and subject to those guarantees under the consumer guarantees legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESimilarly, will the guarantee of fitness for a particular purpose be appropriate? We query what the particular purpose would be, when water is actually used for many purposes, such as drinking, home appliances, gardening, washing the car, and washing the boat. Some recognition needs to be given to the effect of the guarantees with regard to water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn cases where there is a failure to comply with a guarantee, the consumer\u2019s right of redress is to refuse to pay more than a reasonable price. I referred to that before. The Minister did not respond to the challenge that she actually answer which provision would prevail: the ratings legislation or the Consumer Guarantees Act. So I challenge the Minister to take a call to give us some indication as to where local government actually stands, and which legislative provisions are actually going to prevail, because there definitely is some confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00223e6a54dfecda4053943560788316e074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e6a54dfecda4053943560788316e074\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022867df72ec88649299757a8abc8cadf41\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001014\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 4(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001015\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(iv) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002245a98e8fa5b44c0c93363acad1011d03\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001016\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 4(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001017\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(vi) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221871b701c92b45bdb7fdbe2cb99d723e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001018\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 4(2) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001019\u0022\u003Eto omit subparagraph (iv) of section 2(1)(a).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228dda028ae9814328b53e7ec6dae9a887\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ac553e1ca8df4605ae643694a949249e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002253a7cf117a84446788464bed229739fa\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consumer Guarantees Act 1993\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002269b6057999fd4c3fb71adf81b64eb229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269b6057999fd4c3fb71adf81b64eb229\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition is opposed to the extension of the Consumer Guarantees Act to water, gas, and electricity. I shall refresh members\u2019 minds about what guarantees will be provided in respect of water, for example. There will be a guarantee as to title, a guarantee of acceptable quality, a guarantee that reasonable skill and care are employed, a guarantee of fitness for purpose, a guarantee that the goods comply with their description, a guarantee that the goods \u201Ccomply with sample\u201D, a guarantee as to price, and\u2014wait for it\u2014a guarantee as to repairs and spare parts! Those are some of the guarantees that, under this part, will apply to water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOne of the provisions in the bill that is of concern is paragraph (b)(vii) of section 2(1), in clause 6(1). That paragraph states that, to avoid doubt, water and computer software are going to be considered goods. So there is, obviously, some precedent that says that water comes under the Consumer Guarantees Act. I looked for the precedent, and I discovered a document dated 30 September 2002 that explains why the Government says that water already comes under the Consumer Guarantees Act, and that its inclusion in the bill is only to avoid doubt. It is because of the case of Hamilton v Papakura District Council in 2000, where the plaintiff\u2019s claim that water was not of merchantable quality failed under the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAlthough there has not been a court decision as to whether water is a good under the Consumer Guarantees Act, officials consider that it is very likely that water is currently a good under the Act. Officials have decided that water is covered by the original Act. Some official called Mr Bowie, the Ministry of Consumer Affairs\u2019 Chief Advisor Policy Projects, has decided that. That is an august position to decide that water is covered by the original Consumer Guarantees Act! It is completely wrong that, based on an opinion from some public servant, a bill has come to this House that states, to avoid doubt, that water is covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EBecause the Government takes the advice of Mr Robert D Bowie, the ministry\u2019s chief adviser on policy projects, as seminal, I ask the Minister to look at another memo written by that public servant on 8 October 2002. The Government is prepared to take his advice in one memo, but not his advice in the next memo. In the next memo this commentator on the law said: \u201CThe only remedy available to a consumer under the Consumer Guarantees Act that water is not of an acceptable quality is to sue for damages for the breach of the Act. However, the practical effect\u201D \u2014according to Mr Bowie\u2014\u201Cof a successful claim by a consumer under the Act may be, if the fault is one that has a general application, that a council feels compelled to upgrade its water in order to avoid future claims by other consumers.\u201D So the Government\u2019s official adviser, on whose advice it is prepared to base legislative drafting propositions, is telling it that people will be able to sue the councils.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAnd what happens if a council that is supplying water is told that its water is of unmerchantable quality, and that it is liable to be fined? What does the council do? Well, the advice goes further: \u201CYes, a council could decide not to supply.\u201D Rotorua\u2019s eastern suburbs\u2019 water supply is rated D, and is not up to merchantable or acceptable quality. What will happen? The Government is saying that, no, the councils are not going to spend a fortune upgrading water supplies. The officials say that they do not need to do that, that they can just turn the water off. Well, that is not going to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThat is why we are making the point that to have the Consumer Guarantees Act apply to water is wrong. As I said, in that Act there is a guarantee about spare parts, and there is a guarantee about durability. We are saying that applying those guarantees to water is ridiculous, unnecessary, and costly. I have asked the Parliamentary Library to find out how much is being spent to upgrade water quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002295ab14700c3b4c5eb82f29b5cdfcecc3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295ab14700c3b4c5eb82f29b5cdfcecc3\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (NZ National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry; I should have allowed my colleague Tony Ryall to continue. I want to make a contribution on Part 2 because I am concerned about some parts of it. The Hon Tony Ryall has made a number of points, and has given me a number of papers about the issue of water supply; I am sure he will want to come back and comment about those parts, but I want to talk about the issue of telecommunications signals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c266a0809854a15bfc9204667c93213\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: They are included.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b74f0a5633445492b6f7795d676670\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, they are excluded. That is the fascinating part. I ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs why they are excluded. I find it quite remarkable. The bill includes computer software as a good, and the definition of \u201Cservices\u201D in section 2(1), in clause 6, includes telecommunications. It talks about \u201Ca contract for, or in relation to, the supply of electricity, gas, and telecommunications,\u201D. But telecommunications signals are not included as a good. I find that fascinating. Perhaps the Minister will take a call to give an explanation as to why the signals are not included. I cannot understand that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9d1985378a947909fca27864b950f9b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s in the select committee report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eba91c6808a54af18668d58ea8feb212\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: It is mentioned in the commentary? Well, it fascinates me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc3cb1ba6bf44f7bdbd5fa6317b2144\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: They cannot guarantee the quality of the porn sites. They dropped signals because they can\u2019t guarantee they can live up to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9704d667c9b44f693adf662e0168381\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the problem, is it not? I thought this bill was about consumer protection and about guarantees. If the Government is saying that we have to legislate to guarantee supplies, then why does it pick out the easy bits and not the tough bits? I assume that the need for the consumer to be protected is the principle behind the bill. I do not necessarily agree with that; I think that far too often now in this Parliament, in this country, we pass unnecessary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet me digress for a minute. Here we are talking about water supplies. I would like someone to stand up and tell me how many people over the last year, 2 years, or 10 years have died because of contaminated water. I do not know of any; I have not heard of any, but there may have been one. We are going to have up to $750 million of ratepayers\u2019 money spent on protecting people against something that they do not need to be protected against because it has not happened! Well, that is part of what is happening in this country. We are so hell-bent on passing legislation to protect everybody from anything that we will end up putting people in cotton wool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI go back to the issue of telecommunications signals. Because it is too hard, because the Government cannot guarantee the quality of them, it is leaving them out of the bill. What sort of consistency is that? If that is what is actually happening, if that is the reason behind excluding them, what in the world are we talking about? If we are saying that electricity companies have to guarantee a consistent supply, and that water companies have to guarantee not just a supply of water but a supply of water of a certain quality and standard, why are we not saying that telecommunications suppliers have to supply signals? In this world today we survive on telecommunications signals. We are saying that if a telecommunications signal affects an aeroplane that is trying to land, and it fails to land, that is all right; it does not matter if 300 people on board are killed, because the Government is not able to protect them. But for everything else it is easy to provide guarantees. There might be some cost to it; it might cost $750 million of ratepayers\u2019 money. But that is all right; that is OK. We can do that, but we will not try to do the hard stuff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWell, I say to the Government that that is not good enough, if it is going to legislate. I say to it seriously that it should not legislate, because we in this country are so legislated for now that it is crazy. When we become the Government after the next election the whole lot of this garbage will go. If I have my way, the Human Rights Commission, the Privacy Act, and the whole damn lot will go in the bucket. However, I do not think we will go as far as that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a70376b7714a8dae4af41bf66f4888\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me, have you forgotten who brought in the Privacy Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a9df19f3a4e41328300244fb1193e45\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I would chuck the whole bloody lot out! Most of the country would not even notice, quite honestly\u2014but that is just me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI seriously say to the Minister that if she is going to legislate, then she should do it properly. She should not sit there and not even take a call, and leave out the tough stuff. I want to know, when I am in the middle of doing something on my computer, and I am connected into telecommunications, that the signal will be OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u002245185ef0e73c4923a31e9f2480e47afe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245185ef0e73c4923a31e9f2480e47afe\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak on Part 2 of this bill, which is the consumer guarantees part of it. I have listened to a number of speakers here tonight, and water quality is one of the issues that has been raised on numerous occasions. I have to sympathise with Gerry Brownlee when he spoke of Christchurch water being far superior to any other in the country, and he was concerned that Christchurch might end up with water quality like that of Auckland, because Auckland might be the one that dictates the quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3f3fbf3d6cf4f348721b15f0eabc348\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c260d5c3356b4badb6902485a298e343\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there is nothing in this bill that actually says that Auckland has to be the benchmark. Christchurch water might be the benchmark, and I would certainly be happy to have Auckland\u2019s water quality brought up to the same quality as Christchurch water. Because after all, we are having to put up with the water coming directly from the Waikato River, which has gone via Kinleith, and of course, Hamilton, and whatever Hamilton throws into it. I know they appreciate our desire to have good-quality water. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EApart from a comment from Gerry Brownlee about being in favour of waste water, I heard a number of National MPs talking against the inclusion of waste water in this bill. I am rather concerned about that, and disappointed that they have overlooked a very important issue about waste water, in particular in Kawakawa Bay in the Clevedon electorate, where I do a lot of work. They were promised by the Mayor of Manukau City that they would have a waste-water reticulation in place by the end of this year. They have subsequently been told that that will not now happen for another 3 years. The people out there are desperate. During the winter their septic tanks overflow, and during the summer they are not allowed to swim at the beaches, because the waste water flows into the water at their beaches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIf this bill will give them some respite, then I am very much in favour of it. Those people are desperate to have their waste-water system put into place by Manukau City, and they need it done now. If this bill will help to do that, then New Zealand First will support it because the people in Kawakawa Bay desperately need that service. We should put this bill into place and make sure it provides that service for the people of Kawakawa Bay, in the Clevedon electorate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIt is important to them, and it is important to other areas. Beachlands desperately tried, for years and years, to get its waste-water service and it was continually put off. It has it now, but Kawakawa Bay is now suffering the same fate as Beachlands did. It has been put off continually. The people out there are desperate. They cannot swim at their beaches, because the beaches are contaminated. If they go swimming they will be in trouble. They will become sick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295b1340879a84b739090567c04fdb086\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re not going to be able to go to the beach, with this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf754343b9b34d16833199aac4a68253\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Of course they are not going to be able to go to the beaches. They will be taxed on it. I come back to the bill. This bill will help the people of Kawakawa Bay and the Clevedon electorate, so New Zealand First will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002210251b5739244347b8b6f240195df786\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210251b5739244347b8b6f240195df786\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am certainly pleased to see the inclusion of water within the definition of goods and services, which it clearly is, and other Opposition speakers have made that point. I listened to the speech from the member who has resumed his seat, who talked about the Clevedon area. When we look at Watercare Services in Auckland, that really goes to the hub of this dispute. On the one hand we have the socialist model, that water is under the control of each individual authority, and on the other hand we have seen the spectacular success of Watercare Services, which is supplying the bulk water as well as picking up the trade waste. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EMembers may not be aware that Watercare Services harvests the water from the Hunua dams and others in the Waitakeres. It also brings water from the Waikato, treats it, stores it, and reticulates it for under 50c a cubic metre. What do the councils of Auckland do? Manukau City Council retails it for about $1.10; Metro Water, Auckland City, does it for about $1.25; and out west, the hub of the Labour Party, where Bob Harvey is the mayor\u2014he was the former president of the Labour Party\u2014he retails it at $1.53. The water that Bob Harvey gets wholesale, at less than 50c a cubic metre, he retails out west at $1.53. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIt is meant to be the green city, but it has the highest per capita usage of the five Auckland authorities. Is that not extraordinary? It is little wonder that Bob Harvey does not want anything to do with Watercare Services. In Manukau, Watercare Services, very sensibly, is going to take over the whole kit and caboodle. It is part of the hydro cycle. The rain falls, we catch it, store it, supply the treated water, turn on the tap, and then the water goes to waste. We then have to treat that waste and discharge it back to water. It is sensible that it comes under the one jurisdiction. Of course water comes within goods and services. It is absolute folly to suggest that somehow water is special. Just like any other goods or services, it should be subject to the forces of supply and demand, and pricing. Too often, people refuse to apply proper pricing to water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bf072acff904a6c9c5b6a4280e59339\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: You are opposing the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022488424f564aa4633ad909309c45927a2\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c413ca7ed75a4abeba6fae1a2ea6e514\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Yes you are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227726f8d828964a2c9fcbb9be89885548\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am confining this speech to the water issue and the nonsense that we have had in Auckland City. Many of the local authorities are trying to obstruct Watercare Services. I believe that it is doing a very good job, by applying pricing mechanisms to water, and it will continue to do so. Bob Harvey and some of his Labour Party supporters are doing all they can to unhinge Watercare Services and disrupt that sensible supply. We certainly support that aspect of the bill, but it is a very narrow aspect; I appreciate that. When we come to some of the other aspects, that is when we will really start to worry. There are real concerns, when we start looking at some of the other aspects. I joined this debate on the water issue, and that was the key contribution I wanted to make as it relates particularly to the Auckland region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002267680acdc5834ed3906820b30f7b35d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267680acdc5834ed3906820b30f7b35d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E What I find extraordinary about Part 2 is the classic Labour Party \u201Cdo as we say, not as we do\u201D provisions. What we are proposing to do in this part is to put obligations on a whole number of providers of services to provide guarantees, when they are not prepared to guarantee anything. Remember the old Labour Party credit card? Why do we not have the Consumer Guarantees Act stretched into the Labour Party credit card? It would be a dodgy deal. The member Ken Shirley has a copy of the credit card. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMy comment to the Minister, given that she wants to extend these provisions, is let us extend them to Labour Party promises. For instance, there was the promise of no new taxes. How would that go? Have the cockies been told that, with their flatulence tax? Have the road users been told that, with the 5c increase in petrol tax? Have the 16-year-old sherry drinkers been told that? This Government is \u201Cdo as we say, not as we do\u201D. I take objection to that sort of approach to government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen there is the logical inconsistency. Why is it that this bill does not include telecommunications, but includes water, electricity, and gas? I would love to know from one of the Labour members how that differentiation is made. It seems to me that a logical approach would be to say that where Parliament has designed specific legislation\u2014as we debated for nights in the local government legislation over water, or the specific electricity law, or the specific gas law\u2014then that would do the job. But this legislation was designed for specific goods. As my colleague Tony Ryall says, how are we going to provide repairs and get spare parts for electricity? I do not claim to be an electrical engineer, but I am not sure how we can get a spare part for an amp. It is rather tricky. When I get my kilowatt-hour and it does not arrive, can I have the spare part please? What about water? Can I have a spare part for a litre of water? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that that is what she is putting into the law. That is the sort of nonsense\u2014[Interruption] Well, it does. An official document, provided by consumers\u2019 officials, states that if we put water, electricity, and gas under the Consumer Guarantees Act we have to be able to provide repairs and spare parts. We have to be able to provide a sample. I have to say that it will be a bit interesting\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022755798858c1142b0a647aff518560b99\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: A sample of electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022467cbb0065914d0da5561778e5458236\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: A sample of electricity, and we will put it in a bottle for the member! I know there have been some extraordinary developments in electrical engineering and modern physics, but I do not think we have yet worked out how to bottle electricity. I know that this Minister is capable of some extraordinary things, and I look forward to this technical innovation that allows us to bottle electricity! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThen we have to have this guarantee for title. I refer to the member for Rotorua. I do not know whether members know her latest nickname. It is \u201CSnowflake\u201D. She melts the moment she puts the heat on. She will giggle on, but I would like her to explain how one might be able to guarantee certificate of title for some gas. Perhaps that is part of this new flatulence tax that the Government is delivering for the people of New Zealand! I know that it is coming up to 10 o\u2019clock and we have urgency for some days, but the Minister needs to answer how one can have a guarantee of title for water, for gas, and for a number of amps.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252d5332cc0d34d81abe2e65a4253e2b7\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t the National members on the select committee ask those questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce4cb88f906346ec885564a554a6e51c\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I hope the bright spark from Kapiti might tell me how we might be able to provide a guaranteed sample of electricity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f016b0880c4a0d9deb8a73f7fd60b2\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee never raised those questions on the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294186b59f3f64d2fbcafe0964eff184a\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have to ask the member; I have a simple question for him: how do we provide a certificate of title for a kilowatt-hour, or repairs and spare parts for a kilowatt-hour, or, for that matter, water? The provision is a nonsense, and the Government has not thought this through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a15a0eff2e41119db83837ae681180\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a15a0eff2e41119db83837ae681180\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00225e1fffef6e77401db3fd722e06eb3b1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e1fffef6e77401db3fd722e06eb3b1c\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to stand on behalf of the National Party and oppose Part 2. As members well know, this bill is looking to amend three specific Acts: the Commerce Act, the Consumer Guarantees Act, and the Fair Trading Act. In particular I want to make reference to the Consumer Guarantees Act to clarify the position that will be confusing a great many consumers in New Zealand. It is simply that this bill attempts to define a service or a good, but it uses in the definition of a good an objective test based on a reasonable person. That is what the law states. One cannot contract out of it under the Consumer Guarantees Act. It says that it is an objective test based on a reasonable consumer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThat means that if electricity is defined as a good, then a reasonable consumer is meant to understand that it will have certain imperfections and certain specific peculiarities in the way it will act. That is what the law says. So it says, for instance, that electricity is subject to momentary fluctuations and prone to interference by environmental factors, and actions of third parties. In other words, that is the kind of understanding that a consumer is meant to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWell, how practical or likely is it that consumers, who will be looking to the Consumer Guarantees Act that will be amended by this legislation tonight, will understand, uniformly, an objective test? Let me put this example to the Committee tonight. There I am with my pinny on, in front of the stove, cooking up a lovely supper for 141 of the neighbours I have invited around from the Helensville electorate for a quick dinner. I have my 15 ovens burning away, and for dinner I have decided to cook a lovely meal. I am going to start with a mulligatawny soup. I will move nicely into roast legs of lamb\u2014beautifully done with just a little pink inside. I will have potatoes, pumpkins\u2014because those are always very good for us\u2014a few peas, some gravy, and bits and pieces. I am going to make a lovely dessert. I will have pavlova, a New Zealand favourite. I know that the Australians have tried to claim it and that there will be Australians listening in on their satellite dishes to this speech, but I want to tell them here and now that nobody in New Zealand believes that pavlova is an Australian dish. It is a New Zealand dish and we are proud to have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd5c12b2c2e54570bea933b4aedfbc11\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not what we\u2019re here to talk about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224379e0a853e547329481e57a7a5250cc\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is not what we are here to talk about; we are here to talk about the objective test of whether electricity should be a good. So, here I am, with 141 people for dinner from the Helensville electorate, and I am serving them a beautiful three-course meal. We sit down, and the power goes off. The lights are out, but there are plenty of people at home because they are all National Party supporters. There are 141 of them. They do not know each other very well; they do not have neon signs. All of a sudden I come out and say: \u201CLook, a bit of bad news\u2014\u201C\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0ab9de9de15497ab23e092f193e78fb\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What do you know about Epsom?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b01ec3b910c49a286d2e5855e41f604\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I know lots about Epsom. It is a wonderful place. There is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23121dc2fd74532a1e54c62b5734040\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: You live there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248d6fe5f43384d2593007d9b1c9f984a\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do live there from time to time and it is a wonderful part of the country\u2014absolutely wonderful. But like all good things, I like to share myself around. There is absolutely no point otherwise. I am known in places in Wellington, Helensville, and Epsom, and wherever I go I am given a sort of coming-home greeting. People are proud to have me when I am there. But that is not what I am here to talk about; I am here to talk about this dinner for 141 people\u2014and the power has gone off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EHere is the rub: am I a reasonable consumer with an objective test? In other words, if I cannot get an electricity supply would I be reasonable to say that it is OK to understand that the electricity may not be there? Well, with 141 people for dinner, and a beautiful 3-course meal when I am having pavlova for dessert with kiwifruit on top\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a8f9b254825480282cff541bc2cbb71\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is to buy your own power company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d48d79a72ad4be7a7e65066d5aced6d\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is to buy one\u2019s own generator. It is cheaper than a power company. My point is that on that particular occasion electricity supply would not meet an objective and reasonable test\u2014and that is where this legislation will horribly fail. It is just not possible to have an objective test measured across the country, because people will have different circumstances at different times. People will be looking to this fine Parliament for legislation that they will be able to rely on, and they will simply not be able to rely on it, because they will not understand that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00225574decf45dc4029b991bfcb25bc84c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225574decf45dc4029b991bfcb25bc84c7\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022c97b825a10294ab286dad9f6b1b284fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c97b825a10294ab286dad9f6b1b284fa\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E We are now at the heart of the stupidity in this bill that has resulted in ACT committing to vote against it. When the services that this bill puts under the Consumer Guarantees Act are compared with that Act\u2019s provisions, we see just what happens when ideology, or a political manifesto, gets in the way of logic. When we put water, electricity, or gas supply into the Consumer Guarantees Act\u2014a pretty suspect piece of law to start with\u2014we end up with the rich being subsidised by the poor. Essentially, this means that the people who use more of those services, who use lots of them, can insist on a higher standard of service. They will exercise remedies the others will not have the time to exercise, and will get the benefits of inventive new ways of persecuting the supplier that the poor will not think of\u2014and they will do all of that for no particular reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ELet us take water as an example. Paekakariki, just to the north of Wellington, has something in its water that corrodes tap washers. This may seem trifling to members on the other side. They may think it is funny that tap washers and joints get corroded quite quickly by the Paekakariki water supply, but, quite clearly, a reasonable person coming into Paekakariki from outside would not assume a tap washer was likely to disappear within 3 years. That is in fact what happens. If the taps are used frequently, the time taken for the washers to corrode is less. The effect of this requirement is that the local authority, or the supplier of the water, is probably going to have to guarantee that it will meet the cost of those tap washers. Who does that take money from? It takes it from the people. People make a claim and they get paid for their tap washer, or the supplier upgrades the water supply to make sure it does not corrode tap washers and everyone has to pay extra. The people who pay the price of that in their water supply will be paying much more to those who have lots of taps than to those who have only a few taps. They will probably end up paying for tap washers they would never dream of using. Those who can afford to put a water softener on or to take a precaution with their tap washers will be paid for by those who cannot afford to take such precautions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWe can see the same thing with electricity. The person who can afford to take a precaution against losing the contents of their deep freeze because there is an outage or a power unreliability will be paid for by those who do not even have deep freezes. It will be paid for in the price of electricity to those who cannot afford to take any sort of precaution. Householders who decide that an interrupted supply or a power spike in their computer is really irritating, and who decide to go and harass the local power supplier because of what the spike did to their computer, are going to be subsidised by people who do not even have a computer. The cost will be borne by the people who are busy using candles and hot water bottles so that they do not use up power the local authority has asked them to save. The sort of madness we had with the major industrial suppliers deciding to go uncovered on spot prices will presumably come under the Commerce Act, or under one of the other parts of this bill, so I will not, in this part, go into the subsidisation of big business that is occurring. But I will say that the prospect of business for lawyers, or the prospect of the business the disputes tribunal will have, is just rife in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ELet us look at some of the guarantees. Let us take water. There is a guarantee that the water is durable\u2014durable for what purpose? There is a guarantee that it is safe, if it is used in a manner that a reasonable consumer would expect to use to obtain the goods. What about when one\u2019s swimming pool is too deep for the kids? Does the local authority have to worry about that? The local authority can, of course, draw attention to the defects, so we will see another set of these ludicrous warnings with which New Zealand is now infested, saying that if we use too much of something, it might make us feel bloated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022023e3b4b66e74658a2ee81a941558be8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022023e3b4b66e74658a2ee81a941558be8\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d5fcb4211f9d49daa978bbd3554f247e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001085\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 6(1) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001086\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(v) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b376dbbbfc094401ad186e160eae02b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001087\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 6(1) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001088\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(vii) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a0eddea9357a494997e2f674ec74ec90\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001089\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 6(1) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001090\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(vi) of section 2(1) from the definition of services.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002209c28e56903140709c9dccd8b84a4435\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222dc96a31d49048be944b709738ecbdd9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022acd2c52d0a7946949f365c53b155841a\u0022\u003EPart 3  Fair Trading Act 1986\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba4b47cb70d34e98810c5b2f48fc32b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba4b47cb70d34e98810c5b2f48fc32b9\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition will be strongly opposing Part 3. It deals with the Fair Trading Act, an amendment to which we debated in Committee prior to going into Committee on this bill. Part 3 of the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill proposes to include gas, electricity, water, and computer software as goods for the purposes of the Fair Trading Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EJust as my colleague the Hon Dr Smith was able to ridicule the inclusion of gas, water, and electricity in the Consumer Guarantees Act through reference to the fact that there would be guarantees of \u201Cspare parts\u201D for water and \u201Ctitle\u201D for water and electricity, similarly we should raise concerns about what is being proposed in this bill. This bill proposes that the provisions of the Fair Trading Act, which refer to the safety of goods, simply cannot be sustained in respect of electricity and gas. Electricity and gas are inherently unsafe substances or matters, and it is only through an appropriate use of the equipment delivering electricity or gas that these goods can be rendered safe. So for the Fair Trading Act to have to cover gas and electricity, and the requirement therein relating to level of safety, is quite ridiculous. I agree with the concerns raised with the select committee by the New Zealand Law Society with regard to this. The society raised concerns only in respect of electricity, but I think it is just as relevant to gas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat is foolish about this bill also, is the requirement relating to the quality of supply, etc. We simply cannot provide the perfect electricity or the perfect gas on a continuous basis. With continuous supply, as one would understand, there are no interruptions and no difficulties with the voltage. But the fact is that these will be issues with electricity from time to time, and to have any guarantees or warranties provided is foolish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E The National Party in Opposition also says to the Government that the Government does not know the cost of what it is proposing to do, because this bill was presented to Parliament without a regulatory impact statement or a compliance cost statement, both of which are required under Cabinet guidelines and neither of which was provided to the Commerce Committee. We raised the matter of costs on business and consumers as legitimate issues, because we have been able to reveal to the Committee tonight that Local Government New Zealand says that councils are planning to spend $400 million over the next 5 years to get water quality up to a standard that is acceptable to be covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act. Earlier today, we tabled a report that shows that it would cost $750 million for all councils to upgrade their water supplies. The point is that the Government did not even know. The Minister told us to prove the figures, and we tabled them. The Minister did not even know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe previous bill, the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), sat around in the select committee for years and took less than an hour of consideration. This bill, which did not take much longer for consideration, sat on the agenda for months and months and months. It is now being passed under urgency, and the Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, cannot even tell us the cost to consumers of those decisions. I alert the Labour members opposite. They should understand that the Hastings City Council is putting $16 million aside to upgrade its water. Palmerston North is putting aside a similar amount, and consumers will pay for all of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u002297e8797a5aef414cb9d89ce558161cd4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297e8797a5aef414cb9d89ce558161cd4\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I am a little surprised that the member is saying that Opposition members have tabled information about the figures quoted in the Chamber, because having looked at the two documents, I cannot see any reference to the figure they mention. However, I do have information from the officials that the $400 million mentioned is the cost, over time, to all local authorities to provide infrastructure to meet the proposed Health (Drinking Water) Amendment Bill over the 5-year lead-in period. So the cost of this legislation could be nothing\u2014because it could be that local authorities are all moving towards their legal responsibility to provide residents with good quality water\u2014or it could be quite large. But we cannot say, because this is about trying to make sure that the responsibility for the standard and service provision falls where it is most sensible for it to fall\u2014with the authority, with the organisation, or with the trader who can actually made a difference to the quality and can make sure that the quality of the service or good is of an appropriate standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EAnyone can make any legislation sound mad if one chooses to read it in a completely disjointed way, as though members know no more about amendment bills than to read them entirely separately from the substantive Act. The Commerce Committee has looked at this legislation in a great deal of detail. Its members have had excellent advice from the very good public servants who provide it with support, the submissions have been heard, and we need to get on with this legislation. As many Opposition members have noticed, it has been sitting around for a while. It is a wonderful opportunity to give better protection to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002237586ab78e5a48c49e6da969db371605\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237586ab78e5a48c49e6da969db371605\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am sorry that I did not speak earlier, although it would have been out of turn because we have had the benefit of one of the rare contributions from the Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, and she might have been able to enlighten me as to exactly what is intended by Part 3. It seems to me that it might be one of the only parts of the bill I could favour. Part 3 of the Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill merely adds a reference to \u201Cpersonal property of every kind (whether tangible or intangible);\u201D plus an avoidance of doubt provision about water and computer software, to the Fair Trading Act. I am not quite sure exactly what mischief is intended to be dealt with by the reference to \u201Cpersonal property of every kind (whether tangible or intangible);\u201D. Previously the definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D drew on the very long-tested usage of that term in the Sale of Goods Act. This bill amends section 2(1) of the Fair Trading Act by repealing the definition of the term \u201Cgoods\u201D and specifically including under paragraph (b) of the new definition: \u201C(i) ships, aircraft, and vehicles: (ii) animals, including fish: (iii) minerals, trees, and crops, whether on, under, or attached to land or not:\u201D I have to assume that each one of those additions represented some case that cast doubt on whether they would have otherwise been included in the definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D. But to then include paragraph (a), which just about covers everything that is movable and transferable: \u201Cpersonal property of every kind (whether tangible or intangible);\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b4518df7034cd2988f4ec1d4a86f13\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: Intangible? W\u0101hi tapu?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4ce9cd81144ec78419804d2f19ab53\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It could include intellectual property. The definition includes: \u201C(vi) to avoid doubt ... computer software\u201D. Plainly, they are intending to capture some forms of intellectual property, but what is not clear is just what it is intended to act on and what the mischief is. I do not recall having seen that in the first reading copy of this bill, either. The Minister still retains her three officials, and she has made only two relatively mundane or straightforward contributions during the whole evening. I think it would be helpful to the Committee if she were to explain just why Part 3 is in the bill and what it adds to the Fair Trading Act. I have gone through to try to work out what we are getting by putting in the words: \u201Cpersonal property of every kind (whether tangible or intangible);\u201D. There is case law that already states that shares are goods for the purposes of that Act, so that \u201Cchoses in action\u201D are specifically dealt with in an earlier part of that Act. They were specifically excluded from the Consumer Guarantees Act for good sound reason, but here it is obvious that they are expected to stay in. I really am at a loss to understand it. I am sure there is a simple reason, but by including intangibles, it does make it very hard to see how some of the assurances of the Fair Trading Act would apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI take the simple example of the prohibition on being misleading or deceptive. It is very, very hard not to be misleading, by the test under this Act, when one is selling something as complicated and as puzzling to most people as computer software. The test, of course, is not the reasonably expert user. The test under this Act, at least for some purposes, is actually a kind of fool. The Fair Trading Act does not require that it be deliberately misleading. It is quite sufficient, for found liability, that it be innocently misleading or unintentionally misleading. How, then, will a software manufacturer avoid misleading, for the purposes of the Fair Trading Act, when we who have had much to do with the industry know that it is almost impossible for the promise that they seem to hold out ever to be fulfilled? How many Government information technology contracts have ever been delivered in accordance with the representations made by the software manufacturer? In those circumstances, a sort of disappointed common sense usually prevails, and the purchaser realises that was what was to be expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0fff3df45844470a679a59e6ecdbb1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0fff3df45844470a679a59e6ecdbb1f\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E In looking at Part 3, I would like to refer to the intention of the Fair Trading Act, which is to prohibit certain conduct and practices in trade, to provide for the disclosure of consumer information relating to the supply of goods and services, and to promote product safety, and so on and so forth. It is largely related to the contractual arrangements that are entered into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ESection 9 of the current Fair Trading Act sets out the basic concepts that underpin the Act, and it states: \u201CNo person shall, in trade, engage in conduct that is misleading or deceptive or is likely to mislead or deceive.\u201D The Act specifically intends to apply to local authorities in the general provision of goods and services in trade. The bill, in clause 11, proposes to amend the Fair Trading Act by substituting a new definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D, and by inserting a new subparagraph into the definition of \u201Cservices\u201D so that it will include water and the removal of waste water. Under paragraph (a), in subclause (1), goods are defined as \u201Cpersonal property of every kind (whether tangible or intangible);\u201D and I really wonder what the term \u201Cintangible\u201D actually means, because that is a pretty broad term to be used in legislation. One could start considering things like w\u0101hi tapu, religious connotations, and matters of that sort, as the word \u201Cintangible\u201D certainly covers that type of subject matter. Clause 11 also inserts subparagraph (vi): \u201Cto avoid doubt, water and computer software\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe questions that are raised with regard to the definition of water, and the proposed amendments to the Consumer Guarantees Act, are applicable here, and we refer members back to those comments. Section 2(1) of the Fair Trading Act will be amended by the addition of new subparagraph (iv) to paragraph (a) in the definition of services. Although the supply of water and waste-water services may be contained in the general definition of \u201Cservice\u201D, it is curious that water and waste-water services have been specifically included in relation to a contract. That is one of the matters that I have raised consistently as I have spoken here tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230d3619f23fa4d3599c7c1575aeb013b\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Repeatedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3c33a6c89fe4b2f90134060b1b59bad\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, because the matters around contracts are actually quite substantial. As with the Consumer Guarantees Act, we note the general unsuitability of many of the enforcement provisions and remedies available under the Fair Trading Act, which are set out in Part 5 of the Act. They include the granting of injunctions restraining certain conduct, ordering the disclosure of information or the publishing of correcting statements, declaring that a contract is void, varying a contract, the refund or return of property, damages, repair, and supply of specified services. In that regard, I refer members back to section 31 of the Consumer Guarantees Act, \u201CGuarantee as to price\u201D. I will read out subsection (1) because I think it is very important for local authorities. Subsection (1) states: \u201CSubject to section 41 of this Act, where services are supplied to a consumer there is a guarantee that the consumer is not liable to pay to the supplier more than a reasonable price for the service in any case where the price for the service is not\u2014(a) Determined by the contract;\u201D There is no direct contract between a local authority and consumers. Also, one has to remember that if they do not deem the price to be reasonable, they can refuse to pay, or pay what they consider to be reasonable. When we start having the majority of local authorities charging something like $1.10 to $1.53, as in the case of Waitakere\u2014and I would suggest that $1.53 is a hugely exorbitant price to be paying for a cubic metre of water\u2014and when Watercare Services is charging something like 55c for a cubic metre of water, what is a consumer going to say to a local authority about what is reasonable? Consumers who are getting water supplied by a local authority will be saying: \u201CHang on a minute.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0132faad4d849dca80124857379109d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0132faad4d849dca80124857379109d\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (NZ Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002267b20eb6d94e4eabab65a01726e20359\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267b20eb6d94e4eabab65a01726e20359\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party to address the bill\u2019s definition of goods and services\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201122a41a3df4649b6a0ff13c0efae26\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party is in Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d479430b22ab442fa3a8f6eaf2085b1b\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party is in Opposition at this point, but that is OK. I rise on behalf of the National Party, in whatever position one wants to put it, to discuss this bill\u2019s definition of goods and services\u2014particularly Part 3, which relates to the Fair Trading Act. Students of the Fair Trading Act will know that it deals with representations made about particular goods and services, as defined by the Act. In particular, it looks at different definitions, but it includes product safety, and it deals with false representations made about a particular product. Members will know that if this legislation is passed into law, it will add to the definition of goods and services, as interpreted by the Fair Trading Act, gas, electricity, water, and computer software. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to spend a moment talking about computer software, because not many members have discussed that tonight. As we look at computer software in relation to the Fair Trading Act, let us think about product safety. What aspects of product safety do members think a consumer would be looking for under the new definition of computer software? For instance, if a consumer buys a software package, puts that into his or her hard drive, runs a system for Internet-based trading, and loses money, or if that package does not give the consumer the best and most information available, would he or she have a claim under the Fair Trading Act? That is the international trend in financial services\u2014people are buying financial services online through computer software packages. They are buying stocks, shares, bonds, unit trusts, and funds. They are investing worldwide with computer software packages that will now be covered under the Fair Trading Act, and they will be relying on its definition. I simply put it to the Committee that that will create a great deal of ambiguity, because they will be looking through to the test of reasonableness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESecondly, I want to look at what might lead to an action of false representation under the Fair Trading Act in respect of gas and electricity. Let us take water as a good example. As water is supplied out of the consumer\u2019s tap, it may fit nicely within a reasonable definition of good usable water. It may be drinkable, fine for the swimming pool or watering the garden, and it might fit all the general criteria, but if a consumer uses that water to irrigate high-quality tomatoes and those tomatoes do not come up to the quality standards, would that be a false representation under the definition provided in the Fair Trading Act? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd68b7240f93493994b42aecad196fe3\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022498c6b54769743eea486156822956e20\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba2154b714641c4829683ed63f04f03\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: There would be only one standard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ee2c6d1cb554e698d9ed899cbd181f8\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly the point\u2014there would be only one standard of definition. So what might be deemed to be reasonable for one consumer might not be deemed to be reasonable for another consumer. My personal opinion is that there will be a great deal of litigation over the definitions of gas and electricity. Who will bear that litigation? I can see councils being brought into such litigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc0a0155b451471b98f04934d1ae0484\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Who pays for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220720e9fc54b24cb1bcb7f57d072652c0\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Consumers pay that through their rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c15ab0388264585b3c6293b5f4019a3\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: So they will pay themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df78e002a65c4088aa6462e354b637d1\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: They will be charging themselves. Thirdly, I want to look at safety as it relates to electricity. What happens in the example where the 3-year-old goes and puts his or her fingers in a socket and gets an electric shock? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a2579bfa7cc42ffbe87b97817426694\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The 3-year-old won\u2019t care much about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c6fa31236994764bd7e36bc27af3cd0\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The 3-year-old might not care about it, but the parents will. What is the issue as it relates to product safety for electricity under the Fair Trading Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdebd2f514fc473289e10aa5aabd56da\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The 3-year-old will have a stiff finger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bf2f1bb0d1d4e4a9c75f862abbb5345\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The 3-year-old will have a very sore finger. The obligation of safety is clearly covered under the Fair Trading Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00225204f2a5be38410c9e378b9d90c9dd92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225204f2a5be38410c9e378b9d90c9dd92\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a15deb0d14f94fa3a83abbe3d27b9352\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a15deb0d14f94fa3a83abbe3d27b9352\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (NZ National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to carry on with the issue of litigation. When we look at Part 3 in relation to the Fair Trading Act, and the part where it brings in the Consumer Guarantees Act, there are a number of things that that Act supposedly guarantees. There are, for example, \u201CGuarantees as to title\u201D. The other day a constituent up in Northland brought me a case in which, somehow or other, a title had someone else\u2019s name on it. My constituent does not know how it happened, the council does not know, and the deeds people do not know, but it happened. What happens if something is wrong? Who will guarantee that, but, more important, who pays? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EGuarantees of acceptable quality, reasonable care, and skilled employment? That is a good, so yes, there is a guarantee under the Act. Is it a service? Yes, it is guaranteed under the Act, but what happens if that service is not provided? Who pays? More important, who pays if there is a dispute, and there will be disputes because of these sorts of definitions? Perhaps the Minister in the chair, the Hon Mark Burton, who will be absolutely familiar with this bill, will want to take a call to explain these very searching questions. There is also the issue of litigation to see whether there is a dispute. Who pays? That is the issue. The real worry with this legislation is the cost that this Government is putting on to consumers\u2014the people it thinks it is protecting. The Government will end up causing the people of this nation huge cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u201CGuarantees as to fitness for particular purpose\u201D\u2014what does that mean? Apparently, it covers a good and a service. That is fine, but how will the Government guarantee fitness for purpose? What if it does not comply? Who pays? If we go back to the supply authority, or the local authority, and they are found not to have come up to the mark and are fined, who pays? It is the consumer who pays. The same people end up paying again. What are we trying to achieve here? We are trying to achieve something for the benefit of the people, but all we are actually doing is loading a lot of costs on to them. I say to the Government that we have to stop this silly nonsense. We have already seen where the Government has taxed, taxed, and taxed. It has got into the habit now, and I suppose it cannot get out of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ELet us look at the next thing: \u201CGuarantee that goods comply with sample\u201D\u2014what does that mean? Who will guarantee that this Act does what it supposedly does? I ask Damien O\u2019Connor what will happen when someone says: \u201CHang on, no it doesn\u2019t.\u201D He or she gets into a dispute, goes to a lawyer, and ends up in a court case. Finally, the authority gets fined, but who pays? Not the authority! Of course, in the first place it does, but Damien O\u2019Connor pays through his rates, or through his water supply charges. The same consumer that this bill is supposedly protecting ends up paying the bill. Where is the advantage in that? It is just a silly nonsense. Why would one do it? One goes round in that ever-diminishing circle until one ends up in that place that people should not be in. Maybe that is where this Government is trying to get everybody to end up. It is the old ostrich, head-in-the-sand thing, but in this case the position is different. Nevertheless, that is a real worry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere is a \u201C Guarantee as to price\u201D in the Act, so apparently the goods or service we get are meant to be a particular price. [Interruption] It might be a reasonable price, as well, but that is another issue. But then we find that there is a dispute, and here we go again\u2014into litigation. There is an argument, the authority says something is the case, and no it is not. The authority goes to court, loses, and gets fined, and the same people pay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EWhat really worries me is the principle here. Why are we litigating to put people into cotton wool? There is a real world out there, and people have to live and survive in it. We are constantly trying to stop people getting on with their lives. This is just another example of a Government that somehow or other thinks that people cannot stand up for themselves. I say to this Government, and to the people who may be listening at home on their crystal sets, that they should ask themselves this question: at the end of the day what do we actually get out of this bill? It is not a lot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1d8fa8838f6494ca0646782a67f2844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1d8fa8838f6494ca0646782a67f2844\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226df962941e764448bed7ec9d7d909248\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001134\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 11 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001135\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(iv) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022baa6944fb7834326a652e4393c7df519\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 80\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001136\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 11 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001137\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b)(vi) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b519d5bae5f94b3997c5bac8d0ad9eb2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 80\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002234ac83319f7a4a88aaebedeccd98265f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 80\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec78b21c6dcf4f7ca33a8fc216153423\u0022\u003EPart 4  Sale of Goods Act 1908\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002225e210ec33c24b2ba24ca00efa86be81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225e210ec33c24b2ba24ca00efa86be81\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party in Opposition is opposed to these amendments to the Sale of Goods Act. The principal amendment\u2014other than the replacement of the word \u201Cthings\u201D with the word \u201Cchoses\u201D\u2014is the addition of the words \u201Cto avoid doubt, computer software\u201D, by which the Government seeks to say that computer software is a good for the purposes of the Sale of Goods Act. I think we will come across the same problem that we have identified with the other changes to legislation when trying to apply the characteristics of tangible goods to intangible items, such as computer software, electricity, gas, and telecommunications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI want to alert the Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, to the fact that I think the Government is making a major blunder in incorporating computer software as a good under the Sale of Goods Act. The reason is that although computer software is often sold with tangible items that are goods\u2014such as instruction books and CDs from which the programme can be transferred to one\u2019s own computer\u2014when it comes to software, a licence is usually purchased; the software itself is not purchased. No one buys Windows 2000; one buys a licence to use it. As such, it should properly be described as the grant of a licence rather than the sale of a good or a service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThere is the potential for confusion here, because it boils down to the property rights of the purchaser. The Sale of Goods Act makes it quite clear that one actually owns what one sells. But although we might say that buying a suite of Windows 2000 programmes is a good, and therefore has to be treated as a good, we are not buying Windows 2000; we are buying a licence to use Windows 2000. Even though we are passing an amendment that includes the words \u201Ccomputer software\u201D\u2014that is, that a Microsoft program is a good, which one should be able to \u201Cenjoy quiet possession of\u201D under section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act\u2014it is not actually a good in any sense, because one cannot provide title to Windows 2000; one can only provide a licence to use Windows 2000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe reason I raise this issue is that it will cause confusion in the future. Parliament is saying that computer software is a good, which means that one can give title to it, but one simply cannot give title to Bill Gates\u2019 property. One can give a licence to use Bill Gates\u2019 property, but that is not a good. Even though Parliament decides that it is a good, it will still not be a good, and that will lead to considerable confusion in respect of the rights of those who own the Windows 2000 program, and those who have a right to use the licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI have legal advice that suggests that the best way to cater for this problem is to use the warranties and representations provided by the Fair Trading Act when something is being sold. A person just cannot own Windows 2000 unless Bill Gates sells it to him or her. What one can own is a licence to use his program, so I think that the Government is creating a rod for its own back by saying that computer software is a good, because it simply is not a good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b1c9cec863344ef9d11f37d5f134968\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Where does the licence come into this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7b38d8fa294b7290dab4b793e5e753\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Well, a licence is not a good; therefore, even though Parliament might say it is a good, it cannot be a good. Section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act implies that if someone is selling something as a good, then that person has title, but if one has computer software, one does not have title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022522c77b8983341eb835f5599efd6de04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022522c77b8983341eb835f5599efd6de04\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have been listening to Tony Ryall talking about computer software. He referred to the 1908 Act, although I am sure computer software was not around then. However, he is certainly right with his description. One buys only the licence to use computer software; one does not actually buy the physical property. Computer programs are intellectual property. One never has the right to own that intellectual property; one buys the licence to use it. Under the licence to use it, we are not allowed to resell that individual licence on to anybody else, once it has been purchased from the supplier. So it cannot be a physical good, and I believe that it does not fit into this particular part of the legislation. The officials should have considered the matter when they were looking at the whole measure. I admit that we should have spotted it in the Commerce Committee. However, in summary, under the Sale of Goods Act, computer software is not a physical good, and it cannot be passed or sold on to somebody else. One does not have the right to sell it on. So how could it possibly be a good? A good is something that one physically has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002248e8474834ef4bc3adbac09f46765a37\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248e8474834ef4bc3adbac09f46765a37\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The previous two speakers have raised the very interesting issue of where the licence fits in. The Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, can sit there and huff and puff and yawn and carry on, and act as if she is completely uninterested, and as if she has no care towards consumers in New Zealand, but I have two questions to ask her. Is this just another attack by the Labour Government on property rights in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d2b04b426f403599e729e4492a00cf\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09192fc26be479ba946d71bf95ffe74\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the way it looks. Or can the Minister stand up and tell us how a licence holder is protected by this bill? Much of the question that has been raised by the Hon Tony Ryall\u2014the country\u2019s last decent Minister of Justice\u2014and Mr Catchpole, the New Zealand First member who spoke just a few moments ago, would be solved if she simply explained where a licence fits in. I think this bill got drafted in this dreadful way because the officials who are required to draft such bills have been instructed to surreptitiously attack the property rights of New Zealanders wherever the opportunity presents itself. Day after day we come into this Chamber and see the Labour Government having a go at property rights in whatever way it possibly can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFor example, how would a New Zealand firm fare that developed a piece of software and went out to sell it\u2014a firm that does not have the same clout as Microsoft or any of the great producers of software in the world, such as Oracle, or some other producer; just a small software writer selling a licence to use its programme? There appears to be no protection in this bill for either the person owning it or the person who purchases the licence. I hope I see, shortly, the officials sneaking up to the Minister with a bit of paper to explain that I am wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EParagraph (c) in clause 13, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, states: \u201Cto avoid doubt, computer software\u201D. It would be a good idea if the Government itself moved an amendment to add the words \u201Cand licence to use computer software\u201D. What does the Minister think of that proposal? She simply laughs, turns her head away, and, I think, confirms that the Government has no intention of protecting the rights of the owners of computer software, or any product that is sold under licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other interesting thing about this part is that the entire bill now becomes part of the principal Act, the 1908 Sale of Goods Act. I have to ask a perhaps indelicate question in this Chamber: Where does that leave the now legitimised sex industry? Where are the bounds between a good and a service?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a6a2edd769342d98c5294cdd8e58b0c\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re totally obsessed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa96fa12c015426db5ac0bec8fcfe575\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister makes a rather silly comment. Last week the same Minister voted with Helen Clark for that new legislation, on the basis that it was something that New Zealanders needed. We know now from the polls that they were wrong and we were right. They will not make any progress as a result of it. However, if that is going to be a legitimate activity\u2014and apparently it is, since last Monday\u2014where does it fit into the provisions of this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI understand that a matter in here deals with client satisfaction. I do not want to go any further in discussing what that may mean for the bill. However, it does show once again that the Labour Party, when it comes to legislation that deals with anything relating to commerce, the interests of the consumer, or to small business, has no idea whatsoever, no care, and no concern. It simply wants to put in place a number of regulations that make it feel happy about things and make it hard for small business in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad0fa024e5414723b88b6a2661c314eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad0fa024e5414723b88b6a2661c314eb\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I want to deal with the issue of computer software. When I look at this legislation it seems to me that the Government is relying entirely on judicial discretion. For instance, it has not decided to define it, as the Hon Tony Ryall pointed out, as a licence for computer software. It has described the software itself as the good. It has ignored the submission of the Law Society that states that: \u201CBy defining software as goods\u201D\u2014and I am quoting directly from the submission on page 4\u2014\u201Cthere is a potential for confusion to arise regarding the property rights of the purchaser.\u201D There was a possible solution that I thought the select committee would have taken the opportunity to apply\u2014or at least the advisers to the Government, or perhaps an alert Minister such as the one perhaps not in the chair\u2014by referring to licences for computer software. We are now left with this only resolution to the problem. We are relying entirely on the courts to get it right, and that they will interpret the words as in fact meaning a licence for software, rather than the literal wording here. In the past when the Sale of Goods Act was enacted\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022688b55f03aba4621b1d8182735258fc0\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: In 1908.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeee221631724d67a31ce3314ce95c2b\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: People tended to allow the courts to do that sort of thing. However, today legislation is supposed to be specific. That is why thousands of law draftsmen are employed to achieve precisely that. Have they got that right? No, they have not. Why are hard-working New Zealanders paying taxes to the Crown? Because they want good services under the charge of this Government. Yet poor legislation is presented to the House that has not been properly considered and does not take into account the submissions of the Law Society. Hence we are now thrown upon the mercy of the courts to get it right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThey are the same courts that said that there was title to the seabed\u2014and look at the chaos and confusion that has caused this nation and this Government. Ask Nanaia Mahuta. She and her colleagues know the chaos and confusion that it has caused, and we read about it in the paper on a daily basis. Yet the Government is repeating the same error in the amendment to the Sale of Goods Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne other point is the confusion about water. Part 3 refers to water being included as part of the Fair Trading Act. The select committee said that in the Sale of Goods Act it is understood that water includes potable water. Potable water is drinking water. I presume the term means essentially the same in both pieces of legislation. Is the Government now saying to New Zealanders that they will have rights for drinking water, or water that is fit to drink, but in respect of any other water\u2014such as agricultural water, water flowing through the proposed Project Aqua, all of the irrigation projects throughout the South Island that may or may not be potable for humans, depending on quality\u2014that there are no rights, other than common-law rights of course, in relation to that; and that it is only the processed water through the municipal systems that has the statutory protections. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would have thought that in amending the Fair Trading Act to include water, one would at least have defined it as a particular category of water. The select committee\u2014and the judges will read this\u2014is clearly of the view that water is only potable water so far as the Sale of Goods Act is concerned. That is yet another source of confusion. We on this side of the House have been saying that New Zealanders have been paying far too much in taxes, for poor-quality government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00229e3d3a574fe845a7b5489b2ff58d27c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e3d3a574fe845a7b5489b2ff58d27c4\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The bill includes water, electricity, gas, and a number of Acts, but Part 4 has a very short and simple change to the Sale of Goods Act. I am always concerned when we fiddle with the Sale of Goods Act. It is one of the finest flowerings of the 19th century English commercial lawyers. It is a wonderful example of how to draft. It is a piece of law that does what English commercial law had a genius for doing. It does not to try to tell people how they should conduct their lives, it does not try to tell people\u2014merchants, or anyone else\u2014 what contracts they ought to enter, and it does not second-guess or prescribe in advance, but simply writes down in elegantly simple language what the best custom of merchants was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo when I see the Sale of Goods Act being tinkered with by a bill that has some economic and legal nonsense in the other parts, I am put on guard. I am a little bit baffled, and part of it is simply the terms. There is a reference to emblements, and I am not sure how one pronounces them; I never came across them in 20 years of practice. I wish we had the advantage of Mr Worth in the Chamber. I suspect that he would be able to help the Committee considerably with a word as mysterious as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EHowever, I will have to commend the Minister on a feature I like to see. The definition of goods in the Sale of Goods Act will now have restored a word that I believe the original drafter probably had. Clause 13(a) restores the old legal term \u201Cchoses in action\u201D, instead of \u201Cthings in action\u201D. We no longer have that discordant sort of mix of the vernacular and the technical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022421e4bc1536c4ce298ccfcbeae3a09f6\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I think it\u2019s called the State school approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b75aaf3cbe4112b193c0f436710211\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It probably is, but no longer do we have this ugliness and ignorance. We have a term that has been made elegant again, however antiquated it may be. On that one feature, I do commend the Minister and her officials for restoring a sort of symmetry that was once there in our law that has been so grossly attacked by the law drafters in so many other areas. It is a pleasure to see that there is still a consciousness of barbarism, and that the barbarians have not completely won. I thank the Minister for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E I do come back, though: I am concerned that what was probably intended as the substantive change in this definition\u2014that is, sticking in computer software\u2014was something that the Law Society was so unequivocal in recommending against. However, I believe that the Sale of Goods Act is so well drafted that if we abolished consumer guarantees and fair trading, and went back to the sale of goods, we would be all happier, wealthier, and wiser. In this case, the select committee has included computer software, without recognising\u2014or appearing not to recognise\u2014that the sale, as it is called, is usually a sale of a licence. According to the Law Society we are putting New Zealand consumers at risk of uncertainty. Uncertainty means cost, and it means business for the courts and business for the lawyers. In that respect, it would be helpful if the Minister were able to elucidate as to why it chose, and why the select committee chose, to ignore the Law Society\u2019s recommendation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI cannot imagine there was anyone with an enormous passion to see computer software put into the Sale of Goods Act, particularly as the other parts of this bill had already stuck it into the Consumer Guarantees Act and into the Fair Trading Act. It would be helpful to know just why, after such an admirable change to the wording of the definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D, we then went ahead and did something without explaining, given that a body as disinterested, and presumably as expert, as the Law Society recommended against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022b04c60e482394123bc1d4f97a4852a8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b04c60e482394123bc1d4f97a4852a8e\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022efafac5b29b0403a9d9e20265ecaf38d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efafac5b29b0403a9d9e20265ecaf38d\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Members will be aware that clause 13 in Part 4 tends to widen the definition of the term \u201Cgoods\u201D. It states that, to avoid doubt, the definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D includes computer software. The Law Society\u2019s submission challenged that ruling, on the basis that software is a licence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI ask the Minister in the chair, the Hon Judith Tizard, to clarify the issue of CDs and DVDs. I personally do not consider computer software to be a good. I agree with the Law Society\u2019s view that there is a licence to use software. Let us expand our minds for a moment, here in urgency, to think about the issue of CDs. When I purchase a CD\u2014the physical good\u2014I want it to work in my machine. So that is a good. But if I happen to be purchasing a CD that is unknown to me\u2014and let us imagine for a moment that I purchase a CD of Eminem, I have a feeling that would offend me, especially\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291123fdc1ba9413a8fc18f0fb960c86e\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Your kids would love it, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1d45e9d7b64887bab345e6a9150bfb\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: My 8-year-old absolutely loves Eminem, so I try to get him the toned-down version\u2014the edited, censored version. Under this definition, would a CD like that be a good, and what part of a CD is a good? Under this definition, just as computer software is deemed to be a good, would the music on the CD be a good? I think I am hearing the Minister say no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ELet us think about DVDs. Once Were Warriors, The Piano, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, or Licence to Kill\u2014there are hundreds of DVDs that we could think of. So I purchase a DVD and put it in my machine. The physical DVD is a good, but would the actual contents of the DVD be deemed to be a good under the definition used in the Sale of Goods Act, as amended by this legislation? I am not worried about the physical form of the CD, because I can check that in the shop, and there is only a limited number of things that can go wrong with it. But I am worried about what is actually on the CD or DVD. I suspect that the answer is, quite correctly, that CDs and DVDs are not covered by this bill. But it does cover computer software, so when I go to the same store and buy my CD, I am applying a different test to computer software than I am to CDs and DVDs. There is a great inconsistency here. I would not be surprised if we pushed this debate well into tomorrow in order to add this new category that I have now thrown up. This shows that the bill did not spend enough time in the Commerce Committee, and why it is an absolute outrage that we are expected to rush this bill through under urgency\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022276168337fce483d8b0c5daef445291f\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Why urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6a8152192ef4bc6bc7a35445051f292\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! Why are we having urgency, when there is a clear loophole here for CDs and DVDs? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI can think of another example. Would a franchise arrangement be deemed to be a good? The definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D includes \u201Call chattels personal other than money\u201D, etc. We know the reason that money is not deemed to be a good. It is because Samuelson described money as value in exchange, as the Associate Minister of Finance will know from his days in Economics 101. Money has no intrinsic value, and therefore it would be ridiculous to define it as a good. In fact, some people argue that money does no good, and does not bring happiness. But would a franchise agreement for a KFC shop in Helensville be deemed, under this definition, to be a good? That is a very challenging question, and while we are here in urgency I am glad we have a number of officials to advise the Minister on whether a franchise agreement for a KFC shop in Helensville would be a good. If computer software is to be caught under the definition of \u201Cgoods\u201D in the Sale of Goods Act, why is a KFC shop not a good?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00220f060baeca6c41528cbc0c42e3b4ed00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f060baeca6c41528cbc0c42e3b4ed00\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022cdb9d7214adf45799eeb0d6ae9430012\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001179\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 13 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001180\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (c) of section 2(1) from the definition of goods.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002203961510cfdd4736b64112d94d8a74ac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001181\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 13 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242375d31245346bcaa540fcc7d9ece7f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (c) of section 2(1) in the definition of goods, after the word \u201Cdoubt,\u201D, the words \u201Ca licence to use\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 7; United Future 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd5ac97cf98c4d04a4c38924ea33bc5b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 80\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 4 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022661158103548474dac3b472544d91401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022661158103548474dac3b472544d91401\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Committee divide the bill into the Commerce Amendment Bill, the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading Amendment Bill, and the Sale of Goods Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 78.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f943729e74c946dcabaa81091cd53cac\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 80\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001183\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f4ec6563976425ea0073586c4787822\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220f4ec6563976425ea0073586c4787822\u0022\u003EFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b271e233d864372973dc68c3ebf757f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022afdbaa8ddc694d1397c7062659da6f98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022afdbaa8ddc694d1397c7062659da6f98\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time. I thank the House for the support that it has given to this legislation. The main purpose of this bill is to strengthen the level of consumer protection provided by the Fair Trading Act, by reducing the incentives for traders to offend and reoffend. It achieves that purpose by increasing the general penalties and creating a new penalty system for pyramid selling schemes that is designed to render those schemes profitless. The bill also extends the Commerce Commission\u2019s search power so that it can enforce the new pyramid selling penalty, and it removes procedural barriers to effective enforcement. Finally, the bill updates the Act to reflect modern business practices, but it will not materially alter business compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EI thank the members of the Commerce Committee for all their work on this legislation. I particularly thank the officials who have done so much work to address the great need to protect innocent New Zealanders from unscrupulous traders in this context. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EA number of issues were raised during the Committee stage. There was concern, for example, that the definition of pyramid schemes should not include franchise schemes. But members had read the new provisions in isolation, because there are wider definitions of pyramid schemes in the main Act. There was a question about the fines. We are bringing the fines up to date, as they have not been changed since 1986. I just want to tell the House that the equivalent Australian penalties are $200,000 for individuals, and $1.1 million for companies. Of course, the Ministry of Justice was consulted on the levels of penalties, and is very happy with this progression. Given the nature of the offending that we are trying to address, I do not think that the penalties are at all unreasonable. They are a sign to the courts that we expect the new range of penalties to be taken very seriously and applied in all possible cases. Some concern was expressed about the notice power for the production of information. The Commerce Commission already has a powerful search warrant power, and this is actually a less intrusive power because it can be used where voluntary compliance is likely, rather than going to the full extent of going to court to obtain a search warrant. So we are actually seeking a more moderate power in this legislation than the power that exists already. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EGood contributions were made on this legislation. As I said, I thank the select committee for its work. I particularly thank the officials and the House for its speedy passing of this legislation through its last stages tonight. I thank the Opposition for its cooperation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002298916456f8cb40f4a486011f6f69ab8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298916456f8cb40f4a486011f6f69ab8c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I can report to you that the Minister spoke more words during that third reading speech than she did during the entire 2\u00BD hours of the Committee stage on this bill. I have to admit the frustration of the Opposition, given that we were supporting the Government on this bill and were seeking to make some positive improvements to it, that the Minister sat there and said nothing. If the Government does want to receive some support from the Opposition to pass bills speedily, then surely Ministers should do Opposition members the courtesy of responding to their legitimate concerns, rather just giving a few throw-away lines in the third reading speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDuring the Committee stage, the National Party raised a number of important concerns about this bill. I will just recap those, because they are issues that will have to be revisited in this House. We think that the fines have been increased in an ad hoc, non-comparative way. There is some existing legislation where the maximum fine is $100,000 for quite serious offending in the commercial world, but for matters much less comparable with those offences the maximum fines in this bill will now be $200,000. We say that the Government should undertake a review of all the penalties in the commercial area. We are opposed to removing the 3-year criminal limitation period to make it apply from the date of discovery of a breach. We have warned the Government that that will have unintended consequences and will lead to the creation of significant contingencies by various New Zealand companies. We do oppose the Commerce Commission being exempted from the consequences of its decisions in respect of seeking interim injunctions, and we alert the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca381a162e2c4087a74fe732591db167\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Then why vote for it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e929bd3fde40e8807c43bebef8d453\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Franks that he should wait and see. We do say to this House that we are opposed to the increased compliance costs associated with the Commerce Commission demanding from companies certain information and documents that do not exist. This bill was introduced and considered by the Commerce Committee with no regulatory impact statement and no compliance cost statement, even though Cabinet papers require those statements. The Government has broken its own guidelines. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI turn to the fines. Since the 1986 Act, the consumer price index has increased by 54 percent, yet these fines are to be doubled\u2014in reference to what, though? That is what we ask. In reference to what has the level of the fines been set? It has been done on a completely ad hoc basis, with no reference to any other penalties in the commercial law. There have been no proposals from the Government to look at alternatives to a penalties regime, such as improved education programmes for businesses and consumers. The Government told Parliament that one of the reasons it wanted to double the fines was that the judges were not using the full range of current penalties. We provided the Government with the opportunity to vote for the very wording that is in the Sentencing Act, designed to make judges use the full scale of available sentences, and this Government voted that amendment down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E We are concerned about the criminal limitation period, running for three years from the date a breach is discovered or ought to have been discovered, during which breaches of the legislation will be subject to litigation and scrutiny by the Commerce Commission. We say that has an air of lacking an understanding of commercial reality. An aggrieved consumer could raise issues with regard to old advertising that might have been a genuine error some years after it actually happened, but within the new 3-year limitation period. That means business will have to carry a significant contingent liability resulting from actions like advertising. That is a cost on business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThere is a basic right in New Zealand that people should be able to seek redress for suffering damages as a result of somebody else\u2019s action, but not with regard to this legislation. If the Commerce Commission seeks an interim injunction to stop a business from trading and that injunction was unwarranted, the commission does not need to compensate the company for any loss of reputation, profit, or turnover. That is unfair to business. What happens if an injunction leads to a significant commercial loss? What happens if the Commerce Commission\u2019s staff are overzealous? What penalty or sanction is there on the Commerce Commission for its mistreatment of commercial interests in New Zealand? Not one. This Government is to wipe that sanction. It is to wipe the basic right of redress for New Zealand business that suffers damages at the hands of the Commerce Commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe are also opposed to the provisions in this bill that give the Commerce Commission substantial new powers to require information and documents that do not exist. The Commerce Commission already has substantial powers to enter premises, and to seize and demand information and documents. But this Government wants to give the Commerce Commission the power to require companies to provide documents and information that do not exist. Is it common sense to require companies to provide documents that do not exist? Business New Zealand advises that there was a recent case where a company had to produce reports that were not in the accounting system or in the records of the company. Although it completed those requirements at a considerable cost in terms of time and money, the commission found that there was no case to answer. The company was not compensated for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis is appalling legislation. Sure, there is a small amendment that will widen the scope of the Commerce Commission\u2019s ability to deal with pyramid schemes, but it cannot be very urgent. This bill has been hanging around in the Commerce Committee for years, so that amendment cannot be very urgent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dd4760ca2f6428694a3f16f85acf418\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: The lazy Opposition would not do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247e8626f3288484dbd4b1ae443547379\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, did members hear that? Actually, Opposition members were the people who made the running on this bill in the select committee, by trying to get some information. That obviously did not come from any of the Government members, who did not understand in the least what was going on. This bill does propose some additional amendments to apply to companies involved in pyramid selling. Those are to be supported\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233aae1f08fea40759af3b721a5cb3f7a\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Commended, even!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cc85b69cbdf4698adc0f9ac9635c90c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and commended. But we simply cannot support a Government that is not even prepared to listen to positive suggestions that would have improved this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party in Opposition wants to make it clear that when we return to power in 2005\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a560c92ad1fe40cbb7ebda0beb14b0a2\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Or before!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad03c0c53d8143779b5cb849c4b72024\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or before then, there are significant parts of this bill that will be repealed. We will return the right to companies to seek compensation for interim injunctions taken by the Commerce Commission that were unwarranted. We will not allow the Commerce Commission to require documents that do not exist to be taken with no payment. We will not allow a criminal limitation period that allows someone to take an action or lay a complaint about an advertisement 10 years after it was printed or broadcast. We will have a significant review and make all the different fines that apply across the commercial legislation comparable with one another. That has to be done. The National Party is clear that there is some sensible stuff in this bill, but there is a lot that needs to be amended. We provided the Government with an opportunity to fix it. Our team of very thoughtful speakers provided lucid arguments about why the Government should change the bill. We pleaded with the Minister and her officials to take on board those criticisms, adopt those changes, improve the bill, and enjoy our support, but the Government just decided to ignore that. I think that that is bad for lawmaking in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3c3525e728a4f82a1cbf243c7daa10d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3c3525e728a4f82a1cbf243c7daa10d\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this third reading of the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3), which aims to strengthen the Fair Trading Act by making amendments to enforcement and procedural provisions, and, in particular, creating a new, additional penalty regime for pyramid-selling schemes based on the commercial gain from the scheme. United Future sees this legislation as technical in nature, and believes that it has been largely non-controversial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Fair Trading Act to provide that the criminal limitation period runs for 3 years from the date that a breach is discovered, or ought reasonably to have been discovered. This has been done because in some markets, such as building, investment products, insurance, and long-term guarantees, consumers or the Commerce Commission are unlikely to discover a breach until well after 3 years from the date that the breach occurs. Specifically, the bill has doubled the existing maximum fines under the Act, which are currently $30,000 for an individual and $100,000 for a company, to $60,000 for an individual and $200,000 for a company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the definition of pyramid-selling schemes in the Act to take into account newer types of schemes. These may involve participants buying or selling an investment opportunity, and using an agent, who is provided by the scheme operators, to recruit other participants on their behalf, instead of trying to recruit new participants themselves. It also extends the Commerce Commission\u2019s search powers so that the commission may obtain a warrant to search for evidence to demonstrate the nature and extent of a breach of the Act, revenue obtained through offending, or other matters material to the seriousness of the breach. This will assist the commission in gathering evidence for courts to consider in sentencing. In particular, it will help implement the commercial gain penalty for pyramid-selling schemes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAlso introduced is a new power that will allow the Commerce Commission to issue notices requiring people to supply information or documents. This power would give the commission more flexibility, and is most likely to be used when the commission seeks information from witnesses who are not hostile. United Future is happy to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u00226710a11575184a159e276d31296917f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226710a11575184a159e276d31296917f3\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would just like to take a short call on this bill on behalf of New Zealand First to support the expanded provisions dealing with pyramid selling. The provisions under the original Act were reasonable for the pyramid-selling schemes that existed at the time, but as new and innovative ideas have come into being, those provisions have become inadequate. Therefore, this bill tightens them up and captures a lot more of them. We are confident that the bill does not affect existing legitimate franchise operators. With that, we hope this bill is not used to try to close down any of the legitimate franchise operators, and we are confident that it will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E New Zealand First does have some reservations about the wording in clause 14 of paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 47(2) of the principal Act, particularly the use of the words \u201Cmay constitute\u201D. I would like to give an example of where those words are used. Subsection (2)(a)(ii) states: \u201Cthe nature or extent of any conduct that constitutes, or may constitute, a contravention of this Act;\u2019\u2019. We feel that those words are too loose and they should be tightened up along the lines of the Crimes Act\u2014particularly the sections of that Act beginning with section 312A, which are very specific about the reasons for interception warrants and the way that they can be applied for. This particular area of the bill should be tightened up so that it does not capture people who are undertaking legitimate activities that may well be assumed to be outside the law, or to constitute an act outside the law. In that case, we feel that the way the bill has been worded is too loose. It could capture some of those people and inconvenience them to some considerable extent. When the Commerce Commission does inconvenience people, often the result for those people ends up being a major financial loss, without any compensation for their loss. We feel that particular part of the bill should have been tightened up, and we are disappointed that we were unable to do that with our Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EBut, in essence, we support the bill because we feel it is far better to have the law tightened in respect of pyramid selling\u2014particularly the new forms of pyramid selling. Therefore, we support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8a83e527ac4bff8373322a791f884b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8a83e527ac4bff8373322a791f884b\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E It is with great pleasure that I rise to speak in support of the third reading of the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3). I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002282b1c88ebab04124bc43dd70036f92b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282b1c88ebab04124bc43dd70036f92b7\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) was introduced to the House more than a year ago as a bill to deal with pyramid selling. The New Zealand First member who has just resumed his seat\u2014I do not think that the brief interruption since then counts as a speech\u2014was obviously taken in by the spin that accompanied the introduction of this bill. There is nothing in this bill that deals with pyramid selling in any way that the existing law does not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill, as a bill dealing with pyramid selling, is simply misleading and deceptive conduct. Indeed, if the politicians in charge of introducing this bill were judged by the same standards that were applied to the commercial people it purports to regulate, they should be in prison, although I do not think that imprisonment is used in these matters. The misleading part of the bill is that the only change to pyramid selling is to insert the words \u201Cwhether personally or through an agent\u201D into paragraph (ii) of section 24(2)(a) of the principal Act, which is amended by clause 5. That, I suggest to members and to New Zealanders, will catch almost no pyramid selling, if any is still occurring. What it may do is end up catching the people who run Lotto, or perhaps the people running bingo or housie, or the people who are running the pokies. The definition states: \u201Cthat, to many participants in the scheme, constitutes primarily an opportunity to buy or sell an investment opportunity,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EEven the TAB describes what it does as \u201Cinvestment\u201D. The TAB has a guaranteed loss ratio over long-term \u201Cinvestment\u201D, which would probably be worse than a number of these pyramid schemes that we are supposed to get to. But of course Mr Mallard, who is trying to intervene, is part of a Government and sits alongside Ministers who told us what this bill was going to do. Does Mr Mallard know what they told us? They told us that they were going to get to the bottom of scams. Let me tell Mr Mallard what his colleagues said. Mr John Tamihere, of course, was chosen as the appropriate representative to deal with this. He came in here with some ringing words about misleading and deceptive conduct. He gave us a good definition of it, and told us that any person of standing in our community involved in a scam, unwittingly or otherwise, should have the integrity, credibility, and ethics to stand up, come back to the country, and publicise the scam so that others would not be unwittingly misled into that type of investment. Of course, it was a little different when Mr Tamihere had to try to hide behind a personal explanation so that members of this House could not go any further. There is no comment from Mr Mallard. Does he give up on interjections when Mr Tamihere\u2019s name comes up? I ask him whether interjections are quite unacceptable now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut there is more. It got a lot better. Here is another Minister of the Labour Cabinet on what this bill was going to do. He said: \u201CI want to see a very rigorous investigation of those issues.\u201D, that is, the pyramid trading issues. \u201CI am absolutely confident that the Labour members on the committee will dig deep on that investigation. They will drill all over the place, and many things will be flushed out for the benefit of the whole community. I look forward to the rigorous debate and investigation by the select committee. I expect it will be better than a Senate committee investigation in the US. It will be deep investigation, and the public will be better off for it and for this bill.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ENow let us look at what the committee did. Let us look at what this House got from this tawdry little piece of deception introduced by this Government. What we got was a hearing of evidence that took 30 minutes, and consideration, which presumably included getting rid of Mr Peck\u2019s typos, of 55 minutes. So there is the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u2014the pinnacle of the Minister\u2019s career; the pinnacle of the honourable Judith Tizard\u2019s time in this House to date, no doubt. She satisfied Mr Rick Barker and Mr John Tamihere, and no doubt that is exactly what Mr Mallard was expecting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat do we have instead? It is not simply that this bill does not do anything. It is not that it is just empty deception. It actually, on the way, returns to \u201Csoak the rich\u201D. It takes a swing at business. Give a good thump on the way, because they will not complain. Sadly, it managed to drag in National Party members. I believe they have been improving, I believe that they are getting better, but sadly they, too, went along with \u201Chave a thump at business\u201D because no doubt they thought it would not look good if they voted against increasing the sentences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat we got, of course, is the new power for the Commerce Commission to decide that it does not matter what the courts do about justice, \u201Cwe will do justice ourselves\u201D. All it needs now for the Commerce Commission to stuff someone\u2019s business completely, to send out a signal that \u201Cyou don\u2019t monkey with us\u201D, irrespective of the bona fides, that \u201Cyou do not challenge the commissars from the Commerce Commission\u201D is to apply for an injunction. We are told by Labour\u2019s little gift here that the court must not, as a condition of granting an interim injunction, require the commission to give an undertaking as to damages. A protection, carefully developed by the courts over generations, is swept away in five short lines. Until now, if we get a court order, without a proper opportunity to investigate, without full argument, without giving an opportunity to mount the defence, if we get an interim injunction, which means immediately, then we have to undertake that if we are wrong we will meet the costs of the person who has been wronged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo what did the Government do? It abolished it. That is not enough, when we want to thump business. So we got new subsection (6) in section 41, inserted by clause 10, which states that the court, faced with this injunction application, knowing that it is not going to have the full story, knowing that there is not time, must not take into account that the commission is not required to give an undertaking as to damages. So we see the true measure of the malice in this bill. It is that the court, when deciding whether to grant the injunction, cannot even consider that it may be an engine of gross injustice\u2014completely uncompensated injustice\u2014with no remedy for the wronged person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere was another provision in the bill that excited a bit of attention. In fact, it had the Greens, United Future, ACT, and National voting for it. It was an amendment by Mr Brent Catchpole that tried to bring the power of search within normal parameters. It tried to say that at least when a warrant is issued there must be a suspicion that an offence is being committed. Instead, this Government\u2014the \u201CMinister for Auckland Transport\u201D\u2014has brought in a search provision saying that warrants should be issued if an offence may be being committed. In other words, officers can say that the evidence, even if they find it, does not need to amount to an offence. All it needs to amount to is an argument that it could constitute an offence. That is way beyond the powers of search that have been the product of careful protection of the liberties of the subject against the overweening power of the State for generations. This is not just an embarrassing bill; this is not just a tawdry piece of political malice; this is actually viciousness against the business sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e82ec84799a64cc8a87a1fa6e6598fcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e82ec84799a64cc8a87a1fa6e6598fcd\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E It is little wonder that the ACT party would oppose a bill called the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3). It is no wonder, when we consider the actions of that party. When this bill was first introduced into the House we know that ACT members went on a big retreat. They went on an out-of-Parliament retreat, all the way around to Pipitea Street, to talk about how this bill could be defeated. But, tonight, it will be read for a third time, and ACT party members are shaking in their boots about it around in their electorate office in Pipitea Street because they are so concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E Mr Franks quoted from Hansard and said that Labour members in the first reading had said that we would be coming after pyramid schemes and dodgy schemes, and he accused us of not doing that. But Mr Franks has not noticed that we have come after those schemes, and that is why that party sits at 2 percent in the polls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a714c55d1e7249a88e22958eb21f1a7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a714c55d1e7249a88e22958eb21f1a7f\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens support this bill. I refer members to the excellent comments made earlier in debates on the bill by my colleague Sue Kedgley in earlier debates on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00228c4958997d304ab1b46736ab8914e27a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c4958997d304ab1b46736ab8914e27a\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00225729445c0b5e40d09b8a431e06cf4cad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225729445c0b5e40d09b8a431e06cf4cad\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E Obviously, members in the Labour Party are paid by the word. I do not think that even my cat could give a speech more quickly than that, and I still have not managed to teach it to speak English! National will support this legislation, because, on balance, there are more good parts in it than there are bad parts. But I have to say that it is not great legislation. Let me start by waving some red flags for the House, so that members can see where there are some risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222c2969db5b7415c8db88dcefc9ae3bb\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Blue flags.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229af31e2404b4469d883c7cc652b258fa\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Blue flags! Here we are at a quarter to twelve at night, in urgency, whipping through legislation that was introduced 2 years ago. It was introduced 2 years ago, yet here we are in urgency whipping through mediocre legislation that has some good bits and some bad bits in it. I will discuss the bad bits at length, but I will start with the good bits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe have spent hours discussing the bill in the House and giving it some rigorous debate. That is not what the Commerce Committee did. It did not take hours to hear evidence; it took 30 minutes. An episode of Coronation Street runs for 30 minutes, and that is a programme that has been going for about 30 years. The select committee listened to evidence for 30 minutes. There were six submissions, and the committee bothered to listen to only one of them. I hope the reason was that the other five submitters did not want a hearing. That is all I want to know, because the committee heard only one submission and it took 30 minutes to do it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220023331444d0433fac00b04f0d9d9ab3\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Who from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8811cfdd1b74bbdb1245bd59f59d304\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know. It was Business New Zealand, I think. It took the committee 55 minutes to deliberate on the bill. So this legislation, which was introduced 2 years ago, is now being discussed under urgency after having had the wonderful time of 1 hour and 25 minutes in the select committee process. The Labour member who spoke before me with such passion uttered four words. He is on the select committee, I think. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5def5c0af944e8c8850a3bba36d189f\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s the chairman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4a1eec4f53141798d6348bf469777ad\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: He is the chairman of the select committee! It is no wonder that the legislation that goes through this House is hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1f66e3528a479aaa4defe9a999c72e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f9cab829f314c10a94b359cdd060dab\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely hopeless! He had four words to say about legislation that has been around Parliament for 2 years. Well, members should not worry; the cavalry is here in the form of the National Party, and it will give it some rigorous debate. We will tell members why we are supporting it, because there are some good bits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cd35a0a3d274568af838cdc60d16207\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Are we sure? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad433680c4a84887b0db94cee71da7ea\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: We are, but we should not get too excited about it, because it is mediocre\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022106fd7d7b01f4c84b5c4ed7c4f179418\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: This is a good speech. It should be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f1307a6d986435f98facd7cf6eecfdc\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I would prefer fewer interjections, but generally they come from the opposite side of the House and not from my own team. We are supporting the legislation because of what it is attempting to do in the area of pyramid selling. Pyramid schemes, as anyone will know, are very unfair and very unethical. They are schemes that are designed with the intention not of doing a real transaction but of defrauding the people who invest in them. One of the reasons that they are so dangerous and that so many New Zealanders have been caught by them is illustrated by doing the numbers very quickly in our heads\u2014for example: a person sells the scheme to five people, who sell it to another five people, who then sell it to five more people, and so on. The Labour Party might need a calculator to do that, but on this side of the House we can do the numbers in our head. In a country of 4 million people, we do not have to go down many layers to realise that all of New Zealand could be sucked into a pyramid-selling scheme. Only last night on television we saw evidence of a disastrous pyramid scheme that young New Zealanders were being sent via the Internet. It used very graphic pieces of information and very graphic photographs\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022195b9ee81b414596a300f0e0184ca22b\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s very serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c191ce591de0489496bf0a126538deb1\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is very serious, and the very graphic information was quite alarming and quite concerning. We are supporting this legislation because we do not want to see that sort of muck being sent on the Internet. We do not want to see New Zealanders being sucked into those schemes. The Internet is a very powerful medium by which to send pyramid schemes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI also want to point out to members that the good news of this legislation is that it aligns our position with that of Australia. It aligns us with the position outlined by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission in Australia. If this legislation had been in place some years earlier\u2014for instance, if it had been put in place much faster than the 2 years it took from when it was introduced into the House\u2014then a number of schemes that have operated since its introduction into this House would have been closed down. That is one of the reasons we are supporting the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to move on to is the issue of the criminal limitation period. It is late into the night and we do not need notes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479853acfff0484d854b08c0396f36e9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: This is not one of the member\u2019s better speeches. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211522b017b2740f5b66d077215cbcb17\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It could be. It is not over yet. Like a whole lot of things, it is not over. I tell that member that it is a helluva lot better than the contribution from the member on his side of the House, which comprised four words\u2014that stunning performance from the chairman of the Commerce Committee that heard 30 minutes of submissions and took 55 minutes to write up its deliberations. I ask the Minister to answer this question for me: why does it take 55 minutes to write up the committee\u2019s deliberations on something it took only 30 minutes to hear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef94e8a32c9346a1b8a9137a32606abe\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Because you\u2019ve got slow Tories on the Commerce Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022088d8c21936b48e8ad8b00ed059be508\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. There are no slow Tories on that committee. There is no such thing as a slow Tory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ELet us move back to the 3-year criminal limitation period. The legislation will change the period from 3 years of the discovery of the breach, or when a party should have discovered the breach, as opposed to 3 years since the product was developed\u2014and there is very good reason for that. If we move to something like the investment products that are covered by this legislation, members will know about long-term guaranteed products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E For instance, one of the major financial institutions in New Zealand is currently marketing a product that has a capital guarantee out for 12 years, with a minimum return of 40 percent on an investor\u2019s money, if it is invested for those 12 years. It is impossible under the Fair Trading Act to understand whether that guarantee will be lived up to within 3 years. So it is very logical that this legislation will cover that. It is doing it, and that is one of the reasons that National is supporting the bill. The situation is similar in respect of insurance and long-term warranties and guaranteed offers. Those are the reasons we are supporting the bill. They are very important, sensible reasons for supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI do want to talk about the bad bits of the bill. Had the chairman of the Commerce Committee allowed the committee to take more time on the bill rather than despatch it in such a despicable way, within 55 minutes\u2014and with four words\u2014he would have addressed this issue. It is the issue of exempting the Commerce Commission from an undertaking for damages. That means that the commission can go out there like a big bully and take an injunction against a company, and if it is wrong and puts that company through living hell, it is not liable for damages. I say that is wrong. That is big bully stuff. It is just plain wrong. The second thing it can do is to require the production of information and documents that do not even exist. It can ask to see a computer report for something that does not even exist. That is heavy-handedness and it is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022994d2a80ef524311a4c3c2cfb537c36b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is that true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64e0cbb63a74a519b9454f98b3789d1\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Peters that that is absolutely true. That is sloppy. It is one of the reasons we had to wrestle with in terms of whether we would support this legislation\u2014that, and the way it was so poorly treated by the chair of the select committee with those 30 minutes of deliberations. It just was not good enough. But in the end we have decided to support the legislation because of what it is doing in the areas of pyramid selling and the criminal limitation period. I am sure the bill will pass into law, and in due course, when National is back in Government in 2005, we will address those issues that I have outlined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u002239a2c61a95a049c199b5a72ddbd20007\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239a2c61a95a049c199b5a72ddbd20007\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E This is yet another example of a great bill before the House this evening. I support it fully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb0f54ef67f4d069510a918b8e5a9af\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member, Pansy Wong\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228804881d97114384886a86726d072494\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286674643d9364407bc8d0ba9caeccf7a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already called the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab398f5c59e84a64ac8c309f3ad1302c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Like who cares what she thinks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d56de38499774f16886397b59d909a3b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. I have already called the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7fba823aae64c8e8b15ee878bc7eae3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I have not had a speech here yet. She has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfeb8392873646de9d8e82d5e7fc5ead\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will be seated. I am on my feet. Under Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/3, I have already called the member, and I call her again now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf71b015417430481beafc6b032bbfb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The fact that you have called her improperly is no explanation. We have a thing called precedent here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6227c5cd61494699eb00dc178a3de3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say that the member has not spoken\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8689332cb87495d9146d926ed0db59d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr Speaker, but we have a thing called precedent here, based on parliamentary rules. I am calling my first call in this debate. I ask you to ask the Clerk what the rule is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d486c92e37a4febb8e2c07913cc21f0\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member might not have picked that in the last few minutes we have moved from the Committee of the whole House and are now on the third reading of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022516864905faa4e438b901234d7581375\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5949eca13cc47068fa9258404b06785\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not on the bill. It is a question of debate on a particular question. I think those rules have not changed, even in the last quarter of an hour or so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022195c72a1205944648ba85b76432fd917\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member for that. As I said previously, the honourable member Pansy Wong has not spoken in this debate. I have called her under Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/3. I cannot take the call away from her. I call the honourable member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u002245f6dc02dcc0414cb51f9c3bd5894256\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245f6dc02dcc0414cb51f9c3bd5894256\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to take a call in the third reading of the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3). I am grateful that today this bill has received about 4 hours of debate. We spent about 2\u00BD hours on the Committee stage, and about 1\u00BC hours on the second reading, and, with the diligent contributions, particularly from the National Party, at least we all now understand why we support this bill. We did not have a contribution from the Minister. We have had not one single syllable from all those back-bench Labour Party members, and if nobody from the National Party had contributed, they probably would not know what bill we were debating, or why the Labour Government supports the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHowever, there still remains a question to be answered. As my colleague John Key has pointed out, this bill was introduced into the House in December 2001 and referred to the Commerce Committee on 2 May 2002. We supported the bill at the first reading and we supported its referral to the select committee, mainly because of the amendment to toughen up the penalty against pyramid selling\u2014an issue we believe is an issue worth the House\u2019s consideration. But I guess members like myself did not expect that the select committee would only bother to spend half an hour listening to submissions and take 55 minutes to deliberate. It might be something to do with the chairman, Mr Mark Peck. He might believe that the time taken in a select committee has to be in proportion to his size. I notice that the Assistant Speaker in the chair is a member of the select committee. He might appreciate why the National Party believes that in such a rushed process some provisions will require amendments. My colleagues have been working very hard. We support the legislation, mainly because it addresses pyramid-selling schemes. However, we also believe that it needs some amendments in order to make it an even better bill\u2014a bill that will not lead to additional compliance costs with no corresponding benefits. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet me just touch on the four areas that National has promised to fix when we become the Government in 2005. The first one is that whenever legislation is introduced, there should be a transitional period. It is not fair to the business community or to organisations that have to implement the legislation when there is no transitional period. I commented briefly on this at the select committee, because even some technical changes or amendments would lead to the business community not being sure how the implementation would work and how the courts might interpret those changes. It is important that a transitional period exists so that educational sessions can be conducted. So the first amendment we would make would be to ensure that no bills are enacted without having a very fair transitional period. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe second area that we believe needs to be looked at again is the power given to the Commerce Commission. For example, the Commerce Commission has the power to demand any documentation to be produced by any entity if the commission is investigating that entity. It is fair that the Commerce Commission should receive cooperation, but if it happened that it was wanting documentation that is not produced as part of that entity\u2019s financial statement, etc., the Commerce Commission\u2019s power should be restricted. A lot of people might think that with computers it is easy to produce documentation. But if the documentation is not part of the company\u2019s system, it will lead to substantial compliance costs. That leads me to another point. This bill contains no compliance cost statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701d80b1f6fa43e48bbb838cb2162e6f002001274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223bdc8e78ad054e1b9aae0898a269ef78\u0022\u003ETuesday, 1 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3e0de0d0b784b9985190df82aadaf9b\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 3 July 2003)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d23120f700134096887721164f963c3a\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e4c08b6474f4aa994f82803bd9c8ff2\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6a59c547eb94baf938e4db48b5ef3b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6a59c547eb94baf938e4db48b5ef3b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E This might be a convenient time for me to seek leave for a valedictory statement by Graham Kelly to be set down for 5.30 p.m. on 22 July. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226325ad430c594038be1242ac7175bb17\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is not. It will appear on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002294f544baef454663bcee1888a13f67f0\u0022\u003EFair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213ce4c921ca34af4b90b37dfb4f45b71\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000009\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5f2b06eff8a4c96b7988ede1301056a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5f2b06eff8a4c96b7988ede1301056a\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E At the adjournment of the House last night, we were debating the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3). I start my comments this morning by saying that National supports this bill. A large part of it relates to strengthening, or ensuring, the enforcement of pyramid selling as illegal. We believe in that, because a lot of innocent New Zealanders might be caught within pyramid selling, to their financial disadvantage. But we would wish that it be monitored to ensure that the Commerce Commission is proactive in that area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt was a disappointment to National that, although we support the bill and our colleagues put forward a number of very sensible amendments that would have enhanced the legislation, the Labour Government continued to adopt a very arrogant approach in not accepting them. So we promise that, in 2005 when we become the Government, we will introduce those amendments to make the legislation even better. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe have some areas of concern. As my colleague the Hon Tony Ryall pointed out, there is some inconsistency around the various penalties attached to the business law, and that is an area that needs tidying up, since that business law has been in existence for a long time. For example, in this particular legislation we have doubled the penalties for pyramid selling and other offences, but in other legislation similar offences might not attract the same level of fines or penalties. It is high time that we looked at for consistency and streamlined this legislation to make sure that a consistent message is sent out to potential offenders about the seriousness with which we will treat those criminal offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other area of concern related to the powers given to the Commerce Commission. It can request information or documents that are not readily available from the companies concerned. The Commerce Commission should be asked to take into consideration that, if the documents are not readily available, it would cost the company to produce them. We are also concerned that, when the Commerce Commission issues an interim injunction and that injunction turns out to be wrong, it will not be liable for damages. That seems to us to be sending the wrong message to the Commerce Commission. We want the Commerce Commission, which has the advantage already of being a Government department and is armed with all sorts of authority, to be particularly careful in making sure that interim injunctions would not be readily used on companies, given that it would not incur damages if injunctions were issued incorrectly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EFinally, I express disappointment that there is no compliance cost statement included in this bill. It is all very well for the Hon Judith Tizard to say that there is no significant compliance cost issue. I think that if, in 2003, we have a Government that claims to be very concerned about compliance cost statements, then we should see a more specific compliance cost statement included in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022be23b50ea2364f679f5a5e8817b5a4c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222510be4d1f294b0db180b15e303024f9\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255be6f5f2b284d25bcc57f95f6f3927b\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3689def073d40f8bf1ebecb40189a3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3689def073d40f8bf1ebecb40189a3d\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Commerce Amendment Bill, the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill, the Fair Trading Amendment Bill, and the Sale of Goods Amendment Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe overriding purpose of this legislation is to create level playing fields. Firstly, it corrects some anomalies that saw certain utility suppliers having no statutory obligation to deliver value for money and good service to consumers. This legislation ensures that the Consumer Guarantees Act applies to all products and services that are ordinarily supplied in trade for domestic consumer use, now and into the future. Secondly, it ensures that the consumer in the supply chain who is best placed to manage the risk of product failure is liable to the end consumers for defects. Until now, it has been possible for some traders to contract strategically, in order to avoid liability to consumers. Thirdly, it ensures that the definitions of the Commerce Act, the Fair Trading Act, and the Consumer Guarantees Act are consistent with each other. That aligns New Zealand legislation, and the definitions, across all trade practices legislation, as happens in the jurisdictions of our main trading partners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe legislation has been in train for a long time. The Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill, from which these bills have arisen, was introduced in August 2001. It was scrutinised by two Commerce Committees, the first chaired by Kevin Campbell, the Alliance list MP, and the second chaired by Mark Peck. I welcome the legislation as an important enhancement that will make consumer law more comprehensive and give incentives to industry to manage and meet consumers\u2019 legitimate expectations reasonably and sensibly. It is very robust legislation that has had a lot of work done on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EA number of questions were asked in the course of the select committee\u2019s deliberations, and I want to put to rest some of the fears that Opposition members raised. For example, they were very worried about the cost of local authorities bringing their water supplies up to a reasonable standard. I tell them that the Ministry of Health officials who are working on the proposed Health (Drinking Water Standards) Bill estimate that the total cost for all local authorities across New Zealand to provide infrastructure to meet that bill would, perhaps, be about $400 million, but that would be over time and they would have a 5-year lead-in period to bring services up to standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EI do not think anyone in this House accepts that local authorities are entitled to under-invest on infrastructure, particularly infrastructure that is vital to our health, like water. This is a sensible amendment, and I urge those local authorities that have not done that\u2014because, of course, most of them have\u2014to get on with bringing their water quality up and to make sure that the service delivery is reliable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe other thing we had a great deal of debate on from Opposition members was the ownership that one has over software, CDs, or other things where intellectual property is involved. The interest that the consumer receives in software is no different from the interest received in any other intellectual property item, for example, music CDs, videos, and all those sorts of things. Consumers can use that, and they can on-sell it within the licence that they have bought, but they cannot reproduce it or sell multiple copies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThis is good legislation. It brings all those Acts that we are looking at up to modern times, but it also, as Mr Franks pointed out, retains the inherent good sense and clear language of the Sale of Goods Act. A couple of the amendments that went in use very ancient language. Just as New Zealand is moving to include far more M\u0101ori into both law and practice, this language comes from the English common law, which often used Norman French because those were the terms that had been tested in the courts and in common law. I think MPs will be mildly amused\u2014and I know that Mr Worth would be\u2014that we are replacing the word \u201Cthings\u201D with \u201Cchoses\u201D, as in the French \u201Cchose\u201D. So I think this is good legislation that looks at what has been good legislation over the years and brings it up to date. This is an excellent amendment. The Consumer Protection (Definitions of Goods and Services) Bill, as broken out into its four parts, will be a great addition for the protection of consumers in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002254a475b9b16f47bbb9e8d6e1ef9f5f76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254a475b9b16f47bbb9e8d6e1ef9f5f76\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E It would be fair to say from reading the commentary on the legislation that it is apparent it simply was not given the level of consideration by the select committee that it should have been given. There are quite considerable issues in this legislation that make a mockery of it, and I will be touching on those during this report back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt is disappointing that even though we had about 2\u00BD hours\u2019 debate on this legislation last night, the Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, took only one call to respond to any of the Opposition parties\u2019 concerns. Frankly, I do not think that is the way a Minister who is supposed to be on top of her portfolio and able to address the issues and concerns raised in Parliament should behave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis legislation seeks to include electricity, gas, and water in various consumer legislation: the Commerce Amendment Bill, the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill, the Sale of Goods Amendment Bill, and the Fair Trading Amendment Bill. The National Party will be opposing the progression of this legislation because it will cost consumers dearly. It will require providers to invest significant new amounts of money into upgrading the provision and quality of the services that they provide for customers, even though many of the customers may not want to pay extra money to get a level of quality they do not desire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EFor example, let us look at electricity. As the select committee was advised but seemed to do absolutely nothing about, retail companies now have an extended liability under the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill. Previously their liability was limited to ensuring there was no negligence or limits to availability. Now, electricity needs to be of an acceptable quality. So what does that actually mean? Electricity cannot be delivered perfectly. We cannot have a perfect level of electricity, with continuous supply and no interruptions, and with consistent voltage, frequency, and waveform. It is simply not possible to offer that level of assurance in electricity. If it were possible to do that, it would be extremely expensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe consequence of this legislation will be to push up the price of electricity, on top of the power tax that this Government is implementing, which is one of the new 15 taxes and levies that it has introduced in the last 4 years. The Government said it would have only one increase, but in fact it has had 15 increases in levies and taxes, completely contrary to what it promised\u2014and the electricity tax is another. Electricity manufacturers, who previously had a duty of care, will now also have to guarantee electricity of an acceptable quality. That will require a significant investment by them, and again will cost taxpayers dearly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThen we come to the extraordinary circumstance of the Government\u2019s decision to include water as a good under the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill. The Ministry of Consumer Affairs advised the select committee about the guarantees consumers will now have in the supply of water. I would like to recite those guarantees to the House, and members can decide whether the Government has been foolish\u2014as the Opposition says\u2014in providing some of them. There is going to be a guarantee of acceptable quality, reasonable care, and skill employed; a guarantee that water complies with its description; a guarantee that goods, such as water, comply with the sample; and a guarantee as to price. But here is one of the ridiculous things: there is going to be a guarantee as to title. There will have to be a certificate of title for water and electricity. But here is the weirdest thing. Why would a member move an amendment to the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill to say that, when it comes to water and electricity, there is now a guarantee of repairs and spare parts? The Government is guaranteeing that people who purchase water will now have a guarantee of repairs and spare parts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a57829d1485b48d38c2f4ce97b76ef30\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s ridiculous\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022507a63e0ee4b4182aec210370b96cb32\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It is ridiculous, but that is what this legislation does. The suppliers of water must now be cognisant of the fact that they must give a guarantee to repairs and spare parts. That is absolutely ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat is the consequence of making that decision, whereby local authorities and other water suppliers will now have to have water that is of an acceptable quality? We got out the Ministry of Health documents, which state that it has gone through and tested the water supplies in a myriad of regions throughout New Zealand. It is clear that it is going to be expensive. My colleague Georgina te Heuheu tabled a report that shows that to get water supplies in New Zealand to an acceptable quality, which will be required once the Governor-General signs this legislation, will cost up to $750 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe tabled the report. The Minister stood in the House and said: \u201CI\u2019ve looked at the report and I can\u2019t see the figure.\u201D That is because she had not turned over the page. The figure was on the second page, but she said: \u201CI can\u2019t see the figure.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227216cc48640e4491b3654edb9a896704\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Too long; no pictures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022683f55fa68d94371ac9dffb4e94553da\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is right; no cartoons. We say it will cost up to $750 million. Why were local authorities not allowed to have time to get their water supplies to an acceptable standard? Local Government New Zealand reported to the select committee that local government will have to spend $400 million, over the next 5 years, to get the quality of water up to acceptable standards. We also know that the Dunedin City Council is budgeting $30 million, over the next 2 years, to get its water standards up to an acceptable level. This is important because the legislation states that water must be of an acceptable quality. The fact is that much of the water supplied to New Zealanders is not of an acceptable quality. If councils are to provide a guarantee, under the consumer guarantees legislation, then it will be very, very difficult indeed. We have moved a number of amendments that would have provided for a much more realistic way of dealing with that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIt is very easy for the Government to say that this is nonsense but we also have reports, given to the select committee by the Government\u2019s advisers, that people will be able to take action against councils on the quality of water. Government departments say that if they are faced with this liability, which they do not want to incur, they can stop supplying water to their customers. The councils can turn off the taps. That is ridiculous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe also raised an issue that this Minister glossed over, and I can understand why\u2014the issue of computer software. This legislation provides for the apparent avoidance of doubt. Computer software will now be defined as a good, under the Sale of Goods Act of 1908. That Act requires some actual validity to the title that is being passed on in order to complete a sale. What the Opposition said\u2014with the support of the New Zealand Law Society\u2014is that no one has title to various pieces of computer software. What people actually buy is a licence to buy the software. The Government is proposing that titles can actually be bought from Bill Gates. Bill Gates is not going to transfer the title of Windows, but he will give people a licence to use that program. So we cannot have legislation that says people are buying computer software, when in fact they are not. They will be buying a licence to use the computer software. Whereas other legislation refers to the licence to use computer software, the Government is proposing, in its amendments to the Sale of Goods Act, that people can purchase computer software, when in most cases they cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party has moved amendments, and says that this legislation will be back before the House within the next 2 years because the silly decision on computer software will cost consumers dearly. The ridiculous decision to include electricity, gas, and water in the legislation will also have to be revisited by the House, simply because of the expense to consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4c84007159e4e7d9ba924e0197cced1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4c84007159e4e7d9ba924e0197cced1\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of United Future I am glad to rise and support the third readings of the bills. United Future is always pleased and happy to support sensible legislation. Unlike the previous speaker, I am very glad that if a power company inadvertently sends a huge spike down the lines to my computer and blows it all up, it will have a responsibility for it. That in itself can be a very expensive exercise for businesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this legislation is to ensure that the Consumer Guarantees Act applies to all goods and services that are ordinarily required for personal, domestic, or household use or consumption. The legislation, as we have heard, covers the Commerce Act, the Fair Trading Act, and the Sale of Goods Act, and specifically amends the definitions of goods and services in those Acts to ensure that computer software, electricity, gas, telecommunications, water, and services related to their supply, are included within the scope of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe Commerce Committee made a number of technical changes to the original legislation. Notably, those changes included the removal of telecommunication signals from the proposed new definition of goods in the Consumer Guarantees Act, Fair Trading Act, and the Commerce Act. The reason for the removal of \u201Ctelecommunications signals\u201D is that the definition in the legislation was deemed by several submitters to be wide enough to cover the actual content of telecommunications. This caused controversy and unease within the industry. For example, Internet service providers were concerned that they would be liable for emails that did not get through for reasons beyond their control, such as a problem on an overseas network. The committee agreed that it was never intended that suppliers of telecommunications signals should be liable for the content of those signals, and therefore recommended removing them from the definition of goods, but left them in the definition of services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EOne widely publicised aspect of the legislation is that it will give consumers the right to claim compensation from electricity companies when spikes or power surges damage computers or other equipment. Electricity suppliers will become liable for direct losses and reasonably foreseeable consequential losses to domestic consumers caused by problems for which the suppliers are responsible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe legislation was originally designed to clear up an anomaly caused by a 1998 court ruling in a case between the Electricity Supply Association and the Consumers Institute, which held that electricity network services were neither goods nor services. The legislation also closes a legal loophole that has meant that companies or individuals selling computer software packages who misrepresent their products have not necessarily been obligated to offer refunds or replacements to unhappy customers. United Future is very happy to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2a9a662d2614d0c8ad47e98b8fb13d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2a9a662d2614d0c8ad47e98b8fb13d0\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this legislation, because we feel it tidies up a lot of loose ends within the area of consumer protection. I would like to touch on a few points. Telecommunications being excluded as a good is an issue that we looked at very strongly and for a long time during the debate at the select committee. It was considered that perhaps telecommunications should be included as a good, but we considered the prospect of having undesirable issues coming down the line. I refer to things that Internet service providers are not responsible for, coming from overseas, and we really felt that it was impossible to continue leaving telecommunications in there as a good. It is included as a service but not as a good, as we could not expect Internet service providers to be responsible for unexpected events coming into their networks and being passed on. They would certainly try to prevent those from happening, but there are ways of getting them through without detection. So it was decided to remove that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EComputer software is another issue that we looked at, and I think that we made a mistake, unfortunately, by leaving it in the legislation as a good. It is not an actual physical item that one can sell on. One buys only the licence to computer software. Computer software does not really fall under the original Act of 1908, because it is only the licence that people buy, and people do not have a right under that licence to then on-sell that good. The end user cannot on-sell the licence to another person. So we have made a mistake in the legislation by leaving computer software in as a good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EElectricity is another item that we looked at in depth, and I think that if we had incorporated the generators into the legislation, it would have strengthened the whole electricity industry, but the electricity industry is very complex, and it is an industry that perhaps will have to be revisited when the inquiry into electricity is carried out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe have heard a lot about water quality, and local councils being responsible if water quality drops below an acceptable standard. I suggest that all New Zealanders would like to drink fresh, clear water of acceptable quality. But many councils have allowed their water quality to drop. In some cases, that is due to poor maintenance, and in other cases it is due to the particular water supply that the area receives, and sometimes councils cannot\u2014particularly one that Stephen Franks mentioned last night; he was referring to water in Rotorua, I think it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e8ce5c62b404c7d82f56a4c53a75bbb\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Paekakariki. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93d3fd3b45c41e0ad9c2b9975698c43\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry; Paekakariki, Rotorua also, I think, and certainly Taupo have the same problem in that the water cuts out the washers in the taps, mainly due to the pumice content. That is something that is very difficult to extract from water, particularly at source. So water quality really has to be considered, and councils need to be responsible for the maintenance of their pipe work; and if it is the pipe work that is the problem, then I think the councils should be responsible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI was particularly disappointed in the number of Supplementary Order Papers that the National Party put on the Table. National was trying to have water and waste water removed from this legislation. The reason I am disappointed is that the people out in Kawakawa Bay in the Clevedon electorate are desperate to have a waste-water reticulation system put in. Their septic tanks continually overflow out on to the beach, and people are unable to swim at that beach. There is a fish farm nearby, and the quality of the water has dropped there, and they are no longer able to operate that fish farm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe people of Kawakawa Bay were promised last year, by the Mayor of Manukau City, that they would have a waste-water system in place by the end of this year. That has subsequently been withdrawn, and they are now not expecting to have that waste water for another 3 years. It has been postponed, and that is unacceptable. The people of Kawakawa Bay desperately need their waste-water system. They are in the same position as Beachlands was about 5 or 6 years ago\u2014they fought for years to try to have their waste-water system put in place. It was finally done by the Manukau City Council during the 1990s, and they are now satisfied with it. But Kawakawa Bay people are fighting and desperate to have their waste-water system put in place. So if this bill supports the needs of the people of Kawakawa Bay in the Clevedon electorate, then I will most definitely support it, and New Zealand First supports it, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00227767120f2f694cf689fcd6ca905b88ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227767120f2f694cf689fcd6ca905b88ba\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E This is good legislation, and I am pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227d655bc5a2bb462183ec3f225c16836d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227d655bc5a2bb462183ec3f225c16836d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E This is more legislation from the Labour Government that loads extra and unnecessary costs on to hard-working New Zealanders. It is legislation born out of the electricity crisis that Auckland alone experienced a few years back in the late 1990s when there was a meltdown in the cables that took electricity into the city area. Even if this legislation had been in place at the time, it would never have stopped that. It would never have done anything to encourage the sort of investment that was needed to prevent that happening\u2014investment, I might say, that has now taken place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe National Party was concerned that electricity was being classed as a good, and particularly perplexed at the concept of electricity being something that could be considered to have a spare part, could be improved, or delivered as the good itself with some greater level of quality. Everyone knows that it is service delivery around electricity that is most important. One cannot improve the quality of electricity; it is either electricity or it is not. As my colleague Dr Nick Smith pointed out last night, what are consumers to do\u2014bottle up some of the electricity that they have been supplied and take it down to the local power company and complain about its quality? That is not possible. There are some very silly aspects in this legislation that should not see it proceed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe have also expressed at some length our concerns about water being included in this legislation. My reasons for that are very simple. I come from the city of Christchurch, where we have about the best natural drinking water of anywhere in New Zealand. We have deep aquifers that bubble the water up through the shingle; and it comes out of the tap completely untreated with any chemicals at all, most of the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EHowever, if one were to ask the city council what grade its water is considered to be when it is measured against the so-called New Zealand standard for water quality, it is not an A grade, it is a B grade. It gets that B grade because it does not have certain chemical additives that the standard requires to reach A grade. We could now have a situation where consumers are unhappy with that, ignorant of the fact that they have the very best water in the world. We go to our city council and say to them that it must improve the quality of that water by adding those chemicals. We would end up like many other parts of New Zealand, turning on the tap to be greeted with the smell of chlorine or any other purifiers that are added to the water. That is very sad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EIs it a real prospect? I think that it is. I look at the Christchurch City Council annual plan and the submissions to that plan, and I note that when it comes to indicators of satisfaction with water supply, in the year 2002 it received only an 82 percent rating. Therefore, 12 percent of the population out there were unhappy with things. If they had been able to specify that they were unhappy with the pressure, unhappy with the colour of the water because of the quality of the pipes, then I would understand that, and so would the city council. That is why, according to the council\u2019s plan, in the next 12 months the council intends to spend some $5.5 million to improve pipe work, other facilities, pumps, and improving security around the source of the water supplies, as well. The council did not need this legislation to be encouraged to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other issue that really does perplex us is telecommunications being left out of the legislation. This is a Government that has Ministers running up and down the country making speeches and being photographed where there is anything to do with the new technology that is being touted as the great saviour for the New Zealand economy in the future. Would members not think that with such a desire to promote the so-called knowledge wave, there might be some understanding that telecommunications, broadband capacity, and so on, is very much part of how that progresses? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI would have thought it not unreasonable that everyone in New Zealand at some point should expect to have access to broadband communication. I would have thought that it was quite reasonable for rural communities to expect that over time they would have broadband in their communities to such an extent that they would be able to connect very, very speedily with the rest of the world. These days, farming is very much part of the technological advances that we see. In fact, the Government is so confident that it can get technological advance out of farming that we are now to levy cows, sheep, goats, pigs, and any other thing that moves on four legs, for the so-called flatulence tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228bb77d92b19b4b49991fe3460bca0a73\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What about chickens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e6ea54aa8cb46e4872eaab9571700c0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: There we go: the two-legged anomaly! Apparently, that money will go into research to try to reduce those emissions. I am not sure how one goes about that, but for a country that grows grass very well it is a little bit concerning that the Government is doing research into how we might give animals other types of feed to prevent that particular exhaust problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESo on the one hand the Government says: \u201CYes, we understand the capacity that technology has to advance the nation.\u201D, then on the other hand says: \u201CWe\u2019re not going to see the engine of that technology, the broadband telecommunications network, subject to consumer protection, subject to consumer guarantee, and subject to consumer expectation of access and quality delivery.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EA number of my colleagues have raised the issue of computer software. I have noted that the legislation very specifically talks about computer software being a good\u2014in other words, people go down to the computer adviser, buy a disc, it has a programme on it, and according to this legislation, that is the good. It is not. All people get is a licence. I do not think there is any indication in the legislation that those who sell licences to any product have an obligation to the people who purchase that licence. That was never explained by the Minister in the Committee stage. That explicit question was asked of her, and we did not get an answer. That leaves us in a position of concluding that this legislation does very little for New Zealand consumers other than to guarantee that their costs for electricity, water, and, potentially, computer software will go up very considerably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFinally, we note the irony of computer software being considered a good, but the means by which one uses it, one\u2019s telecommunications network, broadband facilitates, and suchlike, are not considered a good. So the National Party finds itself quite unable to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00222cc47c7bb8e2425cb674c570c2ba9d8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cc47c7bb8e2425cb674c570c2ba9d8a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to take a short call on this legislation\u2014eminently sensible legislation, I must say\u2014and I compliment the Minister and her officials on progressing it to this point. Just in brief response to some of the comments that have been raised by the Opposition, I am somewhat astonished by the crocodile tears I see from the National Party in particular about this wonderful new relationship it has just rediscovered with local government. I was a member of the Dunedin City Council when the then National Government tried to sell the nation\u2019s roads. I was a member of the Dunedin City Council when that council was forced to privatise its electricity generation facility. For people from the National Party to stand up in this House, shed crocodile tears, and trumpet their new-found relationship with local government, leads me to say: \u201CWell, yeah, right!\u201D, because I know what members of local government throughout this country think of that party and its discredited policies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EIn terms of the extraordinary comments made by the Opposition last night about the difference between the intellectual property involved in computer software, and the good itself, I say to Opposition members that they should pick up a book and think about the fact that it is a good, and there is intellectual property involved in the creation of the author concerned. It is no different. There is no great new precedent here, and it is only the actual dearth of intellectual capacity in that party that causes it to go down such a tortuous and pathetic route.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002278e9aa097d6141829ca249736279bf66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278e9aa097d6141829ca249736279bf66\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Sometimes one joins a debate feeling that one is demeaning oneself by being in it. The Committee stage debate on this legislation, and the third reading debate, are such debates. I just hope that no lawyers or economists ever have reason to look back at the idiotic comments that have been made about what the legislation does. Laws that interfere with contracts simply assign and reassign risk. Risk is currently carried in the way that the parties agree. Admittedly with most utilities, individual consumers will not have a lot of choice about what they agree to, but collectively they have a great deal of choice. Collectively, in many cases, they own the supplier. In the case of electricity, 80 percent of the generation capacity, and still most of the lines in this country in distance, are owned by the Government, local authorities, local trusts, or entities that must respond to their local communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis legislation simply says that decisions on the standard of service will not be made by the representatives by democratic vote or by democratic representation or by the customers, be they big or small. They will be made by judges and lawyers. The legislation states that acceptability now becomes a matter not of competent adults agreeing, but of what lawyers, in hindsight, say it ought to have been. That is simply a change; a reallocation of risk. It is a risk that is very easily displaced by the supplier on to the customer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is a risk that has to be displaced on to the customer in the long run. When I listen to United Future and New Zealand First talk about that, they seem to believe that a Father Christmas comes out of the air when a bill is passed, that somehow makes all those desirable things like clean water and drinkable sewage come out of a law book. The Karekare case Mr Catchpole used as an example is a classic instance of a community burying itself in consultation, and not wanting to find the money. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the law says that waste should be a matter of consumer guarantee. So it is sad to hear this debate and to hear all the discussion, without recognising that what this Parliament is now doing is reallocating some risk, allocating cost, and allocating it probably from the people who can best afford to carry and bear it, to those who cannot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETake, for example, the computer spike that Mr Adams from United Future mentioned. He is saying that he does not like a power spike affecting his computer. He can easily use a spike protector to cover it, or he can back up his disk. He wants his cost covered by everyone in his community, and in particular, those who do not even have a computer. So we get the gold plating of a system, because the law now says that acceptability must be what any reasonable consumer wants. Well, the reasonable consumer might think; \u201CI am going to have a computer and I would quite like not to have spikes.\u201D So irrespective of the economic logic of it, we now have the prospect of a judge saying in hindsight that suppliers should have spent the amount of money required to upgrade a system to avoid cost that Mr Adams could have easily avoided himself with a plug and a simple piece of equipment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat is what the legislation does. It is the same as rent control. This is that kind of consumer deception bill that says to people: \u201CVote for us. We\u2019ll vote you rich. We\u2019ll vote you happy. We\u2019ll vote you benefits that you wouldn\u2019t want to pay for if you were given the choice. We\u2019ll vote you what you haven\u2019t been choosing when you do have the choice.\u201D That is exactly what we are getting. It is choices we are making. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe cervical-smear campaign goes uncompleted, cancer patients are sent to Australia, and heart patients are dying because this Government has run down salaries for medical specialists and demoralised the hospitals. The same Government is telling local authorities in this legislation that they may have to spend as much as $400 million on a water-quality upgrade that people have not bothered to vote for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is in their hands. In this country, water supply is still in the hands of local authorities. If they wanted better water, there has been nothing to stop them voting for it, and nothing to stop local authorities spending the money to obtain that. But now it will not be their decision. Now it will be the decision of lawyers and judges who do not have to bear the cost. That is what this Government is doing. It is taking choice away from adults. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat does it do in regard to the acceptable quality for electricity? According to the select committee, acceptability is a difficult issue: \u201CWe understand the intended effects of the inclusion of electricity as goods in the principal Act are that electricity generators will potentially be responsible as manufacturers of electricity, but they will not be responsible for failures that result from the acts of third parties, or events beyond human control, provided the manufacturer manages the risk of the occurrence adequately.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIs that not an absolute picnic for a bunch of lawyers? Was it \u201Cadequate\u201D for a Government-owned generator to decide that it would not generate over Christmas, because it wanted to wait for its Indonesian coal supply to arrive? Was it \u201Cadequate\u201D that that company should decide? I believe that it was doing what it ought to have been in terms of company law and the duty of the directors, but when the lawyers get into this, what will they think in hindsight the next time that one of those inadequacies, those unacceptabilities, does materialise\u2014this Government has been rescued by the rain, but when it does happen, will it be adequate? [Interruption]. Mr Peck is ashamed of himself. He sat on the committee and came up with an absolutely fatuous report that did not deal with any of the issues, so now he is saying that this country is temperate and we do not have to worry about the acceptability; we do not have to worry about water supply\u2014it will rain. Well, it did rain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhether something is beyond human control, and whether a risk has been managed adequately, is now something that is no longer for political decision. The legislation makes it a decision by the courts. There is absolutely no doubt that the courts are not an appropriate place to make priority decisions. The courts should not be forced to decide, as in fact they will be by this, between people dying of heart operations and people complaining about their water. I do not know whether anyone in Paekakariki has suffered any health effect from its water supply. Yet this legislation now says that probably millions will have to be spent upgrading a water supply that people would not vote for, when at the same time those same people may be at greater risk of dying on Centennial Parade because of the roading. Those are political prioritisations. They are political decisions. This turns them into the decisions of lawyers and courts. It is bad law, but worse has been the debate we have had about it, and the comfort that people seem to feel in making speeches on a piece of law without even touching any of the provisions that it imposes on New Zealanders who, until now, in this area, have been able to make the kind of deal that ordinary competent adults should be free to make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022227b37afb3234942982fec6d32bd6add\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022227b37afb3234942982fec6d32bd6add\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E One of the good things about doing some university work recently is that I have been able to read a little bit about political science and I know exactly where that member comes from. He comes from a right-wing, public-choice school of thought that tends to suggest that if people find themselves with some particular problems with consumer goods and things like that, it is their own fault. That is what he thinks. He would have people drink sewage if he could. He would have them without electricity, and he would have them being responsible for all of their daily living and functions, with no understanding of market failure or the role of the State.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E The ACT party will have quite a bit of explaining to do, once this debate is over, as to why it does not support consumer protection or fair trading. I think it has a lot to do with Pipitea Street. The party is embarrassed about that. It is embarrassed about its pyramid seller, who is no longer in the House. It is also embarrassed about Rodney Hide. It is time ACT grew up and learnt there is more to the State than a Government sitting back and hoping that citizens will behave decently and contribute to society. I say to the previous speaker that we reject his philosophy absolutely. We believe in a decent society, and that is what we are about providing for our citizens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a454f879d9204889bb8555acdd794086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a454f879d9204889bb8555acdd794086\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (NZ National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the National Party to oppose the legislation. Before I start on the issues, let me say to Mr Peck that that was a wonderful speech of sorts, but his attacking Mr Franks in such a manner was incorrect and totally inaccurate. He is not backed up by the New Zealand Law Society, either. Mr Peck can call Mr Franks lots of names if he likes, but I suggest he read the ruling from the Law Society, which sets out quite clearly that the view he just gave the House was incorrect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis legislation, as Mr Franks said, was introduced with good intentions. It is laudable in many aspects, but in my opinion it has the look about it of law of unintended consequences. It is likely to create more issues and more claims than before. Mr Catchpole said it would tidy up a lot of loose ends. I highly doubt that statement will prove to be correct over time. The legislation, as everyone is probably aware by now, seeks to amend four critical pieces of New Zealand\u2019s consumer legislation. They are the Commerce Act, the Consumer Guarantees Act, the Fair Trading Act, and the Sale of Goods Act. It attempts to define electricity, water, gas, and computer software as goods and services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe very question we need to ask ourselves is whether this legislation is the right way of addressing those goods and services, and whether, in fact, they are goods and services. The Law Society tells us very clearly they are not. It says that although the society supports the idea and supports the objective, the concern simply is that extending the definitions of goods, services, and suppliers in specific Acts is not the most effective way of achieving that. One of the very reasons the Law Society drew that conclusion is that it went to the Consumer Guarantees Act and looked at the specific provisions that would now apply to the likes of electricity, water, and gas if they were defined as a good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI refer members to what the ongoing liability is when something such as electricity is defined as a good. It will carry with it a guarantee as to title. I know that the House and the country are going through a lot of debate at the moment about title of specific aspects of New Zealand, and I recognise that. But electricity is not a commodity, not a good that is likely normally to carry a title. Nor can it necessarily have a guarantee as to its fitness for a purpose. We saw the problem with applying that definition to water. There are lots of ways that water can be defined. For instance, most New Zealanders would understand what defining potable water and drinking water as a good means, but there are various grades of water that may be acceptable to one consumer but not acceptable to another. Water that is used for mass irrigation may be acceptable at one level but not another. Water used to fill a swimming pool may be acceptable at one level but not another. Similar are the guarantee that goods comply with a sample of the goods, or the guarantee as to repairs and spare parts. It is simply not practical to apply those definitions under the Consumer Guarantees Act to water and electricity, as this law attempts to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons I said earlier that I believe this law will be a law of unintended consequences that brings about the rulings required by judges, the Law Society, and the courts of New Zealand is simply that the Consumer Guarantees Act requires that an objective test of a reasonable consumer is defined. That is a very broad and woolly statement, if I may say so. For instance, it is understood that a reasonable consumer would not expect a gold-plated supply of electricity. One of the issues that came up for discussion last night in the Committee stage was the practicality of this. Is one consumer the same as another consumer when it comes to the continuity of supply of electricity, for instance, at a dinner party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e22a9943be9432abc1283c1862c9434\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: You would bring that up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e69fbeda71d54d538e1b7d339e27723d\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: I did bring that up. I thought it was a good point, and I thought I would raise it again. I slept on it, and I still think it is a good point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAnother instance would be continuity of supply of electricity for fridge-freezers. The response from the Government, in putting up this legislation and attempting to have it passed, is that this legislation is the way to deal with that problem. I say it is not the most simple and effective way. There is a far more logical way to deal with that problem\u2014that is, by relying on third-party insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMr Franks pointed out what will happen, and he is quite correct. There is no free lunch. Every single consumer in New Zealand will have to pick up the tab, in the same way that consumers will pick up the tab for the Government\u2019s recently announced back-up electricity generation. That is not free. It is going to cost $200 million, and all consumers in New Zealand will have to pay for it, irrespective of whether they want it. There are lots of other mechanisms that could be applied in this consumer legislation, but we are using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI turn to the issue of computer software for just a moment, and its definition as a good. Mr Benson-Pope stood up and said it was silly to disagree with its definition as a good, despite the Law Society having said it did not believe it was a good ruling. Mr Benson-Pope said the equivalent was a book\u2014that one could pick up a book. Well, there is no reason to define computer software as a good, because what are we defining? Is it the CD-ROM that one buys and puts in one\u2019s machine, or the actual equipment and the licence to run that particular service? I say the same could apply to a DVD or a CD. What are we defining as a good?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI turn for a moment to the likely costs of this legislation. There has been quite a lot of discussion in this House about the potential cost to local government, and that cost will certainly be passed down to consumers. Amounts in the order of $400 million to $750 million have been bandied around. When news of this legislation hit the media it met with very realistic assessments. The Nelson Mail stated: \u201CWater study carries costs\u201D. The Southland Times stated: \u201CUpgrade will cost\u201D. The Christchurch Press stated that the council was preparing for a huge water upgrade that will cost consumers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThere are many ways to address issues that face this country. I recognise that the intention of this legislation was to look at defining electricity and other commodities as a service, so that people could not contract out, and the full vertical supply chain could be addressed. I recognise that consumers do have demands in terms of the supply of water and electricity. This legislation is not the best way of addressing those issues. There are other ways of doing it that would add more clarity, more simplicity, and, I believe, less cost.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a39e569930cf4468b5c118b8f9988f16\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Commerce Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002298873c83eb544c9fbea79b2a6d821a03\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Consumer Guarantees Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220cc98f81d11f4565a792b995d6ddadc0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Fair Trading Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a09f7c10681b491cbc00178597b40d61\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sale of Goods Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f36dd6e39ae0459aa6b69e208f769df2\u0022\u003EImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022867cc2416c90432d9326d7d1445b96eb\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f34b6a5b714749b8e01e8a8e4598ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f34b6a5b714749b8e01e8a8e4598ac\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of Commerce)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee carefully considered the bill and reported it back in April. The purpose of the bill is to amend the Import Control Act in order to provide for the making of export control regulations that will enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure for Certain Hazardous Chemicals and Pesticides in International Trade. This bill, together with certain amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, will also enable ratification of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. The bill will also give effect to any other international obligation that is, or will become, binding on New Zealand that provides for restrictions on, or the prohibition of, the exploitation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand signed the Rotterdam convention on 11 September 1998 and the Stockholm convention in May 2001. The Rotterdam convention requires information about trade in hazardous chemicals to be exchanged between parties before any trading takes place. Once parties are informed of potential trade and their attention is drawn to any related health or environmental risks, they may consent to importation with or without conditions, or not consent to the trade at all. The Stockholm convention seeks to protect human health and the environment by banning the production, use, or trade of certain persistent organic pollutants. These persistent organic pollutants\u2014or \u201CPOPs\u201D, as they are called\u2014are highly toxic. These pollutants can accumulate in living tissues and pose a threat to the quality of food, particularly meat products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe key measure in this bill mirrors the Import Control Act\u2019s import control mechanism, and provides for the Governor-General by Order in Council to make regulations that prohibit the exploitation of specified goods. The bill also includes provision for export controls to be made to meet the requirements of the Basel Convention on the Control of Transboundary Movements of Hazardous Wastes and their Disposal, and of the Waigani Convention to Ban the Importation into Forum Island Countries of Hazardous and Radioactive Wastes and to Control the Transboundary Movement and Management of Hazardous Wastes within the South Pacific Region. New Zealand ratified the Basel convention in 1994 and the Waigani convention in 2000. Currently, export controls to meet New Zealand\u2019s obligations under these conventions are in place through an Order in Council under the Customs and Excise Act that must be reviewed every 3 years. The bill provides a more durable mechanism to meet the obligations under those conventions, and will consolidate these existing export controls with those required to implement the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe select committee considered an amendment to clause 6 to incorporate the trade ban amendment to the Basel convention. The trade ban amendment would ban hazardous wastes exports for final disposal or recycling from what are known as OECD countries to non-OECD countries. Currently, a study is being undertaken\u2014which New Zealand supports within the Basel convention process\u2014that is considering the likely social, economic, and environmental impacts of the trade ban amendment. There is an expectation that the question of whether to ratify this amendment can be presented to the Government once the study is completed at the end of 2004. This bill is not the place to determine the issue, and, as the Associate Minister of Commerce, I do not intend to enter into the debate. I would, however, draw the attention of the House to paragraph (c) of section 2(1) of the principal Act, in clause 6(1), which automatically includes any amendments to the conventions when they become binding on New Zealand. Therefore, by supporting this legislation the House is putting in place a framework that would facilitate a decision either way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, together with certain amendments to the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, will enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions, thereby adding value to efforts to protect the health of New Zealanders and the quality of our food, and demonstrating a commitment to multilateral solutions to global problems. The bill provides a durable mechanism to meet the obligations in these conventions, and consolidates export controls for implementing international obligations relating to certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EFinally, I wish to thank the members of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for their work in considering this bill. I would also like to acknowledge the submitters of submissions, both written and oral. I commend the bill to the House. More particularly, I commend members of the Opposition, who, in the first reading debate and in the select committee, supported this bill without amendment. It is great to stand up in Parliament and note that everyone is of one mind on this bill, and it will be passed rapidly. Kia ora.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002250629b1e889f4f13b6a43c94ca9369eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250629b1e889f4f13b6a43c94ca9369eb\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E This is a fairly simple bill, as the Associate Minister of Commerce has just said. Clause 9 is the clause that provides the mechanism for the control of exports. Even though it is a simple bill, none the less it is an important one. It is important that people understand exactly what we are doing here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn the past, New Zealand had an Import Control Act, but that did not enable us to fulfil the requirements of several international conventions to which this country is a party\u2014the Rotterdam convention, the Stockholm convention, and the Basel convention, not to mention the Waigani convention. So it is obvious that we have to amend that old Import Control Act to enable us to put in place some controls around the export of hazardous substances. That is why this bill is needed. To enable us to comply with the requirements of those international conventions, following our ratification of them, this bill on its own does not do all that we need to do. That is why it needs to be considered in conjunction with the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, because together, once they are enacted, we will be able to comply with the Stockholm convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI suppose one of the issues that caused a wee bit of concern, and was a worry to some of the people who made submissions, was the possibility that the export of some hazardous substances\u2014for example, polychlorinated biphenyls, which are bad substances\u2014for environmentally sound disposal might be prohibited by this legislation. Obviously, that would not be a good move. If we can dispose of some of these hazardous substances in an environmentally more appropriate way, through exporting them to a place that specialises in the disposal of them, that makes a lot of sense. That issue was raised at the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee by Transpower New Zealand, because, I think, polychlorinated biphenyls are produced by some of its activities. Transpower finds it necessary to export those polychlorinated biphenyls for environmentally sound disposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo we had a very good look at the details of clause 9, which is the clause that enables the Government to put in place the prohibition on certain exports. I must say, my having gone through that in some detail, I think the National Party is satisfied that the provisions are flexible enough to enable the environmentally sound export of hazardous substances. If one looks at the various new sections to be inserted in the principal Act\u2014sections 3A and 3B in clause 9\u2014one will see that there can be conditional prohibition of exports. A licence or permit can be granted by the Minister or a prescribed person, and that licence or permit can prescribe conditions for the export of certain substances. We in the National Party are satisfied that the concerns expressed by some of the submitters to the select committee are met in the wording of clause 9, and that it will be possible, once this legislation is passed, for hazardous substances to be exported without this law being breached, if they are being exported for environmentally sound disposal. That was the main concern of those who took a particular interest in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is interesting that one controversial bit did come up. One will note that this bill also enables us to meet our obligations under the Basel convention, which New Zealand signed way back in 1989, and ratified in 1994; so the Basel convention has been around for a fair while. But some countries are trying to expand the Basel convention with something they call the Basel ban amendment. Some members of this House, I think the Green Party members in particular, tried to use this bill as a vehicle to push their interest in the Basel ban amendment. I do give some credit to the Government\u2014and of course the National Party supported the Government in this\u2014for not allowing this legislation to be used as a vehicle to push the Green party\u2019s particularly extreme views on the Basel ban amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think that what is important, though, is that, should the Basel Convention be modified in the future\u2014and it is possible that any of these conventions could be modified as we learn more about hazardous substances and their handling\u2014I am satisfied that the way this bill is drafted is such that it enables the Minister to make appropriate regulation under this legislation to meet any commitments New Zealand might enter into in the future. The bill does not put those commitments into law; it enables the Minister, through an Order in Council, to put in place appropriate regulation to meet changes to those international conventions. I think the drafting of the legislation is sensible in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI have no doubt we will hear from the Green Party. I am sure its members will be pushing their desire to see the Basel ban amendment given greater consideration by New Zealand. They have prepared a minority report from the select committee. I must say I think it wise that the amendment not be included in this legislation. As I said, it is not excluded, because if New Zealand does ever commit to changes to any of the main conventions that this bill enables us to give effect to, then the wording of this legislation will enable us to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think a lot of people, when they hear the words \u201CRotterdam convention\u201D, \u201CStockholm convention\u201D, and \u201CBasel convention\u201D, wonder what they are all about. All that the Rotterdam convention does is require parties to it to exchange information about certain chemicals that are considered hazardous. The convention currently lists 31 chemicals about which all parties to the convention must notify import requirements. If countries that are party to the convention are notifying import requirements, then, obviously, that requires them to be able to have regulations around the export of those 31 chemicals. The Rotterdam convention requires that exchange of information, which makes good sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe Stockholm convention, on the other hand, focuses on persistent organic pollutants. From memory, I think 10 substances are currently covered by the Stockholm convention, and eight of them are also covered by the Rotterdam convention. The Stockholm convention requires a ban on the production and use of dangerous persistent organic pollutants. This bill on its own, of course, will not do that. That is why we need the sister legislation, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, because that will enable us to meet the requirements of the Stockholm convention that we ban or prevent the use of persistent organic pollutants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThose are the major conventions, and that is the effect they have. Members can see that this legislation is required for us to give effect to them, just as the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill is also required for us to give effect to them. National supports the bill. I think the legislation is sensibly drafted, and it is sound legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022da93a107bd1e44adbeb63375d5ddeafc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da93a107bd1e44adbeb63375d5ddeafc\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I stand to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022f6074d7eba9348229274e585310dc6d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f6074d7eba9348229274e585310dc6d4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I had the privilege of speaking on the first reading of this bill on behalf of New Zealand First. At that time I made only the one point, and that was with regard to clause 9 and the fact that it was so wide and allowed various rules to be made in terms of Orders in Council. I am interested to see that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee did consider clause 9, and made a comment that I wish to read into the record. The report, under the heading \u201COrders in Council making provisions to give effect to International obligations\u201D, states: \u201CWe considered amendments to clause 9 of the bill. We note that there is the potential in clause 9 for the Government, in making Orders in Council to give effect to an international obligation, to establish a higher threshold than the international obligations as defined in the bill. However, we are advised that the Government has no intention to exceed the requirements of the international obligations listed in clause 6. Moreover, in making Orders in Council related to export prohibitions, the Government is constrained by both the requirement that the prohibition be \u201Cnecessary\u201D to give effect to the international obligation and its other international trade obligations.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThat is the only point I wished to make. I wanted to have it written into the record so that we had the select committee\u2019s view on the record for any future reference. New Zealand First supports the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002211b7456a5db4486bbf88be9c3add8632\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms(Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002270e0fd1c75e24ccb8affaadcfb616aa6\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022192d72a53cb74e14bc7b37027494a158\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022192d72a53cb74e14bc7b37027494a158\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: I move, That the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. This bill amends the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act in order to give effect to the requirements of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. Enacting this bill together with the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill will enable New Zealand to ratify the convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the Stockholm convention is to protect human health and the environment from persistent organic pollutants, or \u201CPOPs\u201D, as they are commonly referred to. The current list of 10 persistent organic pollutants listed in schedule 2A of the bill includes DDT, Dieldrin, Aldrin, and Chlordane. Apart from limited exemptions recognised in the convention, New Zealand does not use these chemicals and does not need them. They are environmentally persistent, toxic, bioaccumulative, and can be transported great distances from their original place of release by the movement of air, water, and migratory species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E This bill will protect the health of New Zealanders and the environment by prohibiting the import, use, manufacture, and storage of persistent organic pollutants, with only the specific and limited exemptions permitted under the convention. The export-control requirements of the convention are addressed under the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, which has been given its second reading in this House. This bill is a welcome addition to New Zealand\u2019s regulation of hazardous substances, and it signals our international commitment to ensuring the global prohibition of these toxic and bioacccumulative substances. I thank the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its careful checking of the provisions of this bill, and its constructive improvements to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI now turn to some of the issues arising from the committee\u2019s consideration of the bill. Only three submissions were received and heard by the committee, but the concerns raised by the submitters did lead to significant drafting improvement in some clauses of the bill. First, the definition of \u201Cenvironmentally sound disposal\u201D has been amended, and new clause 4A has been inserted. That new clause requires the Environmental Risk Management Authority to provide directions regarding the collection and disposal of waste persistent organic pollutants. Importantly, disposal must now be consistent with the convention\u2019s requirements. Second, changes to the bill will permit the continued use of polychlorinated biphenyls for holders of current use-of-storage exemptions granted under the Toxic Substances Regulations. Existing exemptions can be extended by the authority until the end of 2016. The convention recognises that polychlorinated biphenyls are still used in some countries, particularly in the electricity industry, but their replacement with more environmentally friendly substances must be undertaken in accordance with managed replacement plans. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EAnother issue worth noting is that the bill contains an Order in Council mechanism to allow for the updating of the list of persistent organic pollutants in schedule 2A. As new substances are designated as persistent organic pollutants under the convention, they can be added to schedule 2A. Similarly, any specified use for a persistent organic pollutant substance can be amended if the convention is so amended. Importantly, any new Order in Council must be consistent with New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the Stockholm convention. I must stress that before any new substance is listed in the Stockholm convention as a persistent organic pollutant, or any other change is made to the convention, it must pass through a rigorous and internationally pair-reviewed process of assessment. The parties to the convention then need to agree to it, and, finally, New Zealand can agree to, or decline, the change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe Stockholm convention will come into force following ratification by 50 countries. Thirty-three countries have ratified it to date. New Zealand is committed to being in the first 50 countries that ratify and are hence responsible for bringing the convention into force. The bill will enable that, and I recommend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c276cc58386649ceac08b02e72eadc39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c276cc58386649ceac08b02e72eadc39\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak in the second reading debate on this bill. It is interesting legislation, because it provides for an absolute prohibition on the manufacture, import, or use of persistent organic pollutants. It is obviously a very strong measure, and therefore one does need to be absolutely satisfied that it is necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to look at schedule 2A, which identifies the 10 currently listed persistent organic pollutants. I have to say that they are not nice things, and I think most people would have to agree with that in respect of some of these substances, like Dieldrin and Aldrin. In my earlier life I had a fair bit to do with those chemicals because, of course, sheep dips used to contain them. Those of us involved in the agricultural industry will know what those substances can do to the ground. They turn it into a bare patch pretty quickly. Although some people might be concerned at legislation that is as draconian as this\u2014it absolutely bans the importation, use, and manufacture of certain substances\u2014I think we all have to accept that the process that is gone through for substances to be added to the Stockholm convention is a powerful and robust process. I think that any concerns people have can be eased in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe legislation mentions one group of chemicals in particular, and that is the polychlorinated biphenyls, which I mentioned a moment ago in relation to the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill. They are in fact produced here in New Zealand. The select committee had a look at this issue in some detail, because, whether or not we like it, polychlorinated biphenyls are currently widely used in the electricity industry, inside such things as transformers and light fittings. Although I think everyone, including the electricity industry itself, is in agreement that, over time, polychlorinated biphenyls should be removed from electrical equipment, it is obviously going to take time to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced included in schedule 2A a requirement that the extension of the expiry of the exemption being given to polychlorinated biphenyls be 2014. The select committee looked at that in some detail and came to the conclusion, after listening to evidence from Transpower New Zealand Ltd in particular, that 2014 was too short a time to impose on the electricity industry to get rid of polychlorinated biphenyls from its products. So the select committee has recommended in schedule 2A that the date be extended to 2016. We consider that to be a sensible amendment because it does enable a sensible time frame for the replacement plan that Transpower New Zealand Ltd has in place to complete the replacement of polychlorinated biphenyls in those electrical products. The way the bill is now, those 10 substances that form schedule 2A will be banned from use, storage, or manufacture in New Zealand. One substance, the polychlorinated biphenyls, has an exemption to continue to be able to be used in New Zealand, and the expiry of that exemption has been extended out to 2016. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere are, of course, some other small exemptions in the legislation. I think it is important that people understand that some substances are used in research and there is the need for their use in research to continue. The legislation does not ignore that. In fact, clause 8 appropriately covers this issue. Clause 8 provides that as long as small-scale research on hazardous substances does not create or involve a persistent organic pollutant, there is the possibility of an exemption from the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMost issues that were of concern to those who appeared before the select committee have been covered. I think that the bill in its final form, as it comes back to this Parliament, is satisfactory. The final thing I would say is that when further substances are added to the Stockholm convention, we will be able, with the way the provisions in this bill are drafted, to include those substances without any further amendment to this legislation. The National Opposition is totally supportive of this bill. The fact that it is moving through the House in conjunction with the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill is sensible. We will be supporting this bill as it progresses through the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd36ce3a030c4872bbb1614ac1f22201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd36ce3a030c4872bbb1614ac1f22201\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak in the second reading debate of this bill. The bill as reported back from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, is not substantially different from how it was for its first reading, although a few changes have been made, and those changes were addressed very ably by the speaker before me. They are largely uncontroversial, and technical in nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act to give effect to the requirements of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, by prohibiting the manufacture, use, and importation of such pollutants unless a specific use is permitted or an exemption is granted. The convention lists 10 persistent organic pollutants, including polychlorinated biphenyls and DDT, and has a requirement to reduce emissions of two by-product dioxins. The bill contains an Order in Council procedure to add further persistent organic pollutants to the regime if necessary. The bill allows for an application to the Environmental Risk Management Authority for approval of small amounts of persistent organic pollutants to be imported or manufactured for use in containment, but only as analytical standards\u2014that is, for the comparison of a known concentration of the substance with an unknown concentration, or for the purpose of laboratory research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ENine of the 10 substances covered by the convention cannot currently be approved for manufacture or import in New Zealand, because they were deregistered under the Pesticides Act of 1979, and no applications for import or manufacture have been submitted under the principal Act. The import and manufacture of polychlorinated biphenyls, the final persistent organic pollutant, has been prohibited from 1 January 1994 under the Toxic Substance Regulations 1983, Amendment No 4. The Government is already addressing the issue of dioxin emissions through the work programme of the Ministry for the Environment. However, the current legislative framework does not guarantee that New Zealand will meet its obligations, because it is possible that regulations could be altered, or approval could be granted, under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act as it currently stands. The costs to the economy of these measures are expected to be nil, given the current lack of use of those substances, and, given their toxicity, it is unlikely that New Zealand would ever wish to approve their wider usage. In any case, the convention allows for the country-specific exempted use of a substance. United Future is happy to support this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002283d41277f4564c7485a221a7558febd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283d41277f4564c7485a221a7558febd3\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens, of course, are happy to see any progress in getting rid of some of the worst environmental contaminants anywhere in the world. Persistent organic pollutants, particularly the organo-chlorine family, have already contaminated human beings and wildlife around the world, including accumulating in the fat of polar bears in the Arctic, many thousands of kilometres from where they have actually been used. They are in food chains, and it will take a long time before that contamination eventually declines. They are in our soils, and it will take a long time before they eventually break down, so this legislation is not before time. The Greens have been pushing for Stockholm convention issues to be addressed for a long time, so we, of course, support this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EHowever, there are a couple of things about it that give me concern, which I want to draw to the attention of the House. A change that was made by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee in the definition of environmentally sound disposal was not just an uncontroversial and technical matter. In relation to the disposal of hazardous materials, the committee changed the wording \u201Ccomplies with article 6 of the convention\u201D to \u201Care not inconsistent with article 6 of the convention\u201D. If there is no difference between those two forms of wording, why did the wording have to be changed? If there is difference between them, it is pretty clear that \u201Care not inconsistent with\u201D is a much looser standard than \u201Ccomplies with\u201D, so there is some respect in which the New Zealand Government wants to do something rather lesser than what is in the Stockholm convention in terms of environmentally responsible disposal, and this clause is meant to allow them to do it. There is no other possible explanation for that change of wording, and there is certainly legal precedent that \u201Ccomplies with\u201D is a stronger and higher test than \u201Care not inconsistent with\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E Secondly, in the change of that interpretation, the words \u201Cenvironmentally sound disposal \u2026 does not include diluting the substance with another substance before discharge into the environment\u201D have been struck out. It is a pretty sensible environmental principle that if our environmental standards are expressed in the form of concentration levels, it is not appropriate simply to dilute a given quantity of a hazardous substance with lots of something else, in order to meet concentration levels. The same amount of that substance is still discharged into the environment, and one of the key characteristics of these persistent organic pollutants is that they re-concentrate up food chains. They bioaccumulate at a rapid rate, so diluting them is not the answer to anything. That provision has been taken out, and the explanation we are given in the committee\u2019s report is that it was taken out because a new technology of phytoremediation may require mixing a substance with some other substance, in order to then deal with it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI do not find that explanation very convincing, because the committee also says that it is expecting that if phytoremediation works out, the convention will adopt it as one of the technologies that can be used to meet environmentally sound disposal. Surely, when that happens, we will have no problem with the wording of the convention, and the wording of the bill as it originally went to the select committee. So there is clear evidence here that there are proposals underway to dispose of those hazardous materials in ways that are not entirely as the convention foresaw, and I have difficulties with that. We have not really had any adequate disposal for them, and I would certainly invite the Minister\u2014in the Committee stage or in the third reading\u2014to give us a more adequate explanation than we have had so far about why that change had to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThirdly, I note that there is nothing in the bill that implements article 5 of the convention itself, which relates to dioxins. Let us not fool ourselves that getting rid of the scheduled list of persistent organic pollutants is taking a great step forward in terms of what actually happens on the ground. Most, if not all, of those substances have not been used in New Zealand for years. We are putting a law in place after the fact, and it will not make a difference to what happens on the ground. It is simply to make sure that no one can start using those substances in the future. The issue that is really difficult for New Zealand to address concerns the by-products created in manufacturing or combustion processes, not as a deliberate manufacture of a material for use but as unintentional by-products. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EDioxins and furans are in that category. They are highly toxic, highly accumulative, and highly persistent, and their effects are of the same nature as other chemicals that are deliberately created. They are much harder to deal with because they are unintentional by-products. We can change our manufacturing process to minimise them, or change our combustion processes to minimise them. We can get rid of the low-quality incinerators that we still have around New Zealand. Those incinerators ought to be closed down in favour of much better disposal facilities, because we are currently spreading dioxins and furans into the New Zealand environment, and that will continue for some time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt is true that it is possible to implement article 5 of the convention without putting anything in this legislation to do so, but it leaves open the question about how serious the Government\u2019s intentions are on dioxins. We have provision in the law for national and environmental standards under the Resource Management Act to control things like dioxins. There are no such standards. What exists now are criteria that are used for soil and for the clean-up of contaminated sites, based on the acceptable daily intake of dioxins for a human being. That tolerable daily intake is set at 10 picograms per kilogram of body weight per day. It has now been pretty universally agreed that that level is far too high. It needs to come down to one picogram per kilogram of body weight per day, and I understand that the Government accepted that level last year. The trouble is that all the standards for soil and air discharges are based on the old tolerable daily intake, and that they therefore need to be redone according to the new tolerable daily intake. So there is a great deal of work to do on dioxin standards, and we still do not have anything much for water. They are the least developed standards of all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI talked earlier about bioaccumulation and biomagnification up the food chain. Dioxins are the worst offenders in that respect. Simply one step up the food chain\u2014one trophic level\u2014can magnify dioxins 5,000 times, so dilution in the environment is no help at all. We urgently need some tight dioxin standards. We urgently need to implement all of the measures in article 5 of the convention, which talks about how to do it. I will be watching very closely to see whether the Ministry for the Environment proceeds with the dioxin standards, or whether that will be allowed to gradually trickle away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022b5f10d0c77144c74a835fdbbd026e71c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b5f10d0c77144c74a835fdbbd026e71c\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to stand and support this legislation. I think it is very important legislation to give protection from the persistent organic pollutants that are a risk to our environment and the health of our people. I am happy to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022ede6b8287ed746fdb42e764431c0a5bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ede6b8287ed746fdb42e764431c0a5bb\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports this legislation. It is an example of New Zealand First\u2019s continuing care and concern for the environment. The major legislation that this bill is amending was passed in 1996, and today we are just updating it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI was interested in a comment made by the Minister when he spoke to the bill today. He indicated that about 50 countries were needed to ratify this bill for it to have international effect. He suggested that we were still in the 1930s in terms of around-the-world support, whereas I note that when the Hon Marian Hobbs introduced the bill, she said that we were up to \u201Cthe late 1940s\u201D. On the face of it, New Zealand is giving effect to legislation for a convention that is not yet complete international law, because until 50 countries ratify it, this bill will not have that international effect. I raise that point to emphasise that until the procedure set out for international law is given effect to, the convention does not apply. That is confirmed by Principles of Public International Law, 5th edition, by Ian Brownlie. On page 611, he indicates that the second point for ratification is the international procedure that brings a treaty into force by a formal exchange or deposit of the instrument of ratification. I am just making that point to show that this convention is not yet international law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the Kyoto Protocol is not yet international law. That requires 55 percent of the parties named on a percentage basis to give effect to it. As yet, the United States, at 36 percent, and, I believe, the Russian Federation, at 17 percent, have not ratified it. So the Kyoto Protocol is not yet law, and I am disappointed that the Government should be taxing farmers in respect of an international convention that does not yet have international effect. If the Government adopts that approach to the Kyoto Protocol, what approach will it adopt to other international conventions\u2014such as the Stockholm convention, which is not yet accepted internationally by the ratification procedures set out in the convention and in international law? On the international application basis, I think all those farmers who are protesting against paying for the Kyoto Protocol are quite justified in doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIn respect of this particular legislation, once again New Zealand First is concerned that the Government is given Orders in Council procedures. It is all very well for the Greens to say that they are concerned about the environment, but sometimes the most important clause in legislation of this kind is the Orders in Council provision, which occasionally gives the Government excessive powers to do things that might not have been contemplated at the very beginning. I notice that it is proposed to have an amendment at the Committee stage along similar lines as Orders in Council. That amendment will have a delegation-by-authority provision. The Minister could have told us a little bit more about that at the second reading stage, but I expect he will tell us a bit more when he takes the chair in the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is fundamentally opposed to Orders in Council and sub-delegation of authority to officials\u2014in this case, the power to grant an extension of exemption order to any employee of a person specified in section 97 or, if there is no employee with relevant experience, to any other person with relevant experience. That provision seems a bit wide and sweeping, but it is there because of the constitutional provision that one should never delegate anything to another person without having a specific delegation power in the legislation\u2014delegatus non potest delegare, if I can throw off a useless Latin phrase that I learnt during my law degree. However, we need some explanation for this delegation to a law official. Before we can support it, we must have a clearer indication that it is a good way of implementing this convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EGenerally, many of the things referred to in this bill do not get used in New Zealand now anyway. The overall view of all members of Parliament and all political parties with a concern for the environment\u2014a concern that goes back over 100 years, and is not necessarily something that has just been invented in the last 25 years\u2014has made sure of that. New Zealand First supports the bill and looks forward to it proceeding through the select committee shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00228eac1c994d024845a9c55bd93db50719\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eac1c994d024845a9c55bd93db50719\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (NZ Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to support this bill on this reading and the introduction of the Stockholm convention. Can I assure the member who has just spoken that any Order in Council must be consistent with New Zealand\u2019s obligations under the Stockholm convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00222412dea8003a4476b8ba5deecb1dc296\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222412dea8003a4476b8ba5deecb1dc296\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E ACT New Zealand will be supporting this legislation. It will allow New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm convention addressing the global problems of persistent organic pollutants. This country has had widespread use of some of these substances, with our agricultural base: dieldrin, widely used in sheep dips through New Zealand, and the residues of that are still in our soils; DDT, used very extensively in this country to combat grass grub and other applications; and the polychlorinated biphenyls, widely used in the electricity industry with transformers, etc. It is not many decades since we drained transformer oil on the side of a road or into a ditch, without recognising that we were releasing concentrated polychlorinated biphenyls, and there are substantial sites around New Zealand that hold serious levels of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EMost of these substances are no longer in use. We are really talking about passing laws to stop them being reused. I think in most instances that that is most unlikely. But let us not be too harsh in beating up on them. If we look at DDT, yes, it is persistent, but it is not particularly toxic. People do not actually die from DDT. It just hangs around for a long time. It does not hang around as DDT; it degenerates to DDD and then DDE, which I understand has a half-life of about 20,000 years, so it does stay about for a while. That is the problem: its persistency and its accumulation in food chains and the like. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EBut also, let us remember the role that DDT has played in combating malaria globally. Millions of people have died from malaria. More people died from malaria in the First World War than died from the fighting. A lot of people forget that. It is the use of DDT on a global basis that has saved the lives of millions of people\u2014we must remember that at all times, when we tend to get harsh and judgmental on the use of these chemicals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons mentioned her concern with regard to dioxins and furans as the products of combustion, and the bioaccumulation and biomagnification of those substances. I am always a bit curious, though, about our Minister for the Environment, because I believe that the solution is high temperature incineration. That does break down these substances. It removes them and destroys them utterly, yet our Ministry for the Environment seems to be constantly opposing any proposal for high-temperature incineration to dispose of them. Instead, it seems to favour landfills. Landfills are actually a major source of dioxins in this country, yet the Ministry for the Environment seems to choose that option in preference to high-temperature incineration. I always find that rather curious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EACT will certainly support this bill. Generally, we are very careful when we look at ratification of United Nations conventions and at importing those into our law, but this one is really consistent with what has become practice in this country. There are alternatives to the use of some of those synthetic substances. We have phased them out in most instances and we now have the safeguards in this bill, as it came back from the select committee, that allow for the continued use, controlled use, and phase-out of those for which we have yet to find suitable alternatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00220bb3cc4960d94a978d9fbbf3910b2227\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220bb3cc4960d94a978d9fbbf3910b2227\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to support this legislation and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe8597b958b345b1b21fc3eb33dbf4be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe8597b958b345b1b21fc3eb33dbf4be\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E National supports this bill, as do all the other parties in the House\u2014and quite rightly. But I note that it has been on the Order Paper since 21 May 2002; although the Government purports to have some interest in the environment, the bill has languished for quite some time under this somewhat dilatory Labour Government. It concerns me that this bill comes under the very Minister who was responsible for not using her call-in powers\u2014I may be wrong; the Hon Chris Carter is looking at me closely, but I understood that the bill was under the Hon Marian Hobbs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711a99266ee04270956fb63df6f86702\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The member is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275b454c4f32e42ae803c956a773e85fc\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: She did not use her call-in powers to exercise some degree of balance in the consents that led to New Zealand\u2019s largest landfill at Hampton Downs being given the go-ahead. That will be a very big blight in the future on the Labour Government, because there was an opportunity to have some form of balance in terms of ensuring that rigour was applied to the argument, and it was lost by a Government that purports to be interested in environmental matters but, unfortunately, and as exemplified by this bill, is clearly somewhat dilatory since the bill has been left to lie on the Order Paper for a very long time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENevertheless, the main purpose of this bill is to provide for the absolute prohibition on the manufacture, import, or use of persistent organic pollutants, otherwise known as \u201CPOPs\u201D\u2014not to be confused with elderly people. As I noted in Hansard, considerable doubt was cast upon that at one stage of events. Persistent organic pollutants are chemicals that have the quality of being incredibly environmentally persistent, and as the Hon Ken Shirley pointed out, they can lie around for over 20,000 years and their half-lives may still not have been diminished. They are toxic, bioaccumulative, and able to be transported by the movement of air, water, and migratory species to places far from their original point of release. There is no doubt that having a United Nations - sponsored bill such as this, where a convention is put into place and signed up to by as many countries as possible, is absolutely appropriate. In fact, I understand that the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants enjoys an almost unparalleled level of support among United Nations countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESubmissions on this bill came from three important sources. One was from Geocycle Ltd, a subsidiary of Holcim. The Holcim group of companies is perhaps the world\u2019s leading supplier of cement. The other ones came from Transpower New Zealand Ltd and the National Council of Women. It is worth spending a little time on the Geocycle submission, because it pointed out that Geocycle\u2019s focus is at present on the collection of used oil, nationwide. Again, it supports the intent of the bill, but states: \u201CHowever, the bill does not implement Article 5 or Annex C of the Stockholm convention, which concerns the unintentional production of dioxins and furans.\u201D It submitted that the Government should provide for those in the bill or, at least, in additional legislation. \u201CGeocycle\u2019s view is that national environmental standards and extended producer responsibility policies need to be implemented to give effect to the Stockholm convention.\u201D It certainly requested that the Government develop those, so I am hoping that the Government will take note of that. It also stated that the bill should \u201Cprovide for the use of waste and hazardous waste in the manufacture of cement and lime, where appropriate environmental standards can be achieved, and recognise the positive environmental benefits of co-processing. That will obviously assist the New Zealand cement industry to remain competitive with other countries.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EGeocycle maintains that there are no national guidelines for dioxin emissions, and that they need to be enforced. At present, they are enforced variably. Again, I agree with the co-leader of the Greens that it is important to have robust national guidelines for the treatment of dioxins in New Zealand. Hopefully, that is something the Government will get on with. The commentary on the bill makes the point that \u201CDioxin is a by-product of some combustion processes and is not a substance that is used in a process. Therefore, dioxin is outside the jurisdiction of the Act and is not addressed in the bill.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI put it to the Government that this is something to which it should give some attention. Geocycle\u2019s submission states: \u201CIt is unfortunate that the cement industry is labelled as a potentially high dioxin producer by the Stockholm convention. The cement industry in general has been proactive in measuring dioxin emissions and operating in a manner to control emissions.\u201D It goes on to say that there is a need for national environmental standards to be developed to cover all industry, not specific industry sectors; and that they should be based on discharge standards applying to all discharges, not to specific industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe next important submission came from Transpower, and, indeed, the committee dealt with its requests, which were, basically, to phase out the current usage of polychlorinated biphenyls, which are a form of persistent organic pollutants that are very much used in the power industry. Transpower operates high-voltage electrical protection equipment that contains small, hand-sized sealed capacitors known, or suspected, to contain polychlorinated biphenyls. Transpower states that there are approximately 2,000 of those items in use, but they are labelled and contained within\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003Einside cabinets in controlled substation environments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e449778ba3b43d1a5a105c41c284482\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: Transformers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af8f92c1f67a417288e1ffc8175b944f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that that is where they can be found, and there are many of them around the country. The point Transpower made is that the removal of polychlorinated biphenyls is subject to a replacement plan that reflects shareholder requirements on Transpower to manage the transmission system economically under the requirements for a State-owned enterprise. When Transpower obtained an exemption for continued use in 2000, premature replacement of the equipment was expected to involve a cost in the range of $20 million to $30 million. So its request was that an extension programme up to 2016 was accommodated in the bill, and that has been possible, provided those provisions are agreed to in the Committee stage. So this is a very important aspect of gradual, sensible disposal of persistent organic pollutants or polychlorinated biphenyl, in a practical sense that affects the New Zealand economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe third and somewhat interesting submission came from the National Council of Women of New Zealand Inc. They also supported the intention of the bill, but were concerned about some of the aspects that unfortunately have been addressed during the briefing processes. So this is a bill that is supported by National, and supported by the House, and I commend its progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00222eadb205bb054a5385e15c85ca201f2c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222eadb205bb054a5385e15c85ca201f2c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future): \u003C/span\u003EI was not going to take a call in this debate, but I am prompted to do so to protect the honour and the integrity of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, following a very grave attack by the member who preceded me. He talked about the dilatory consideration of this measure. I need to put on record on behalf of the members of that select committee\u2014of whom that member was one for the purposes of this debate\u2014the very processes by which we considered this legislation. It came to the select committee on 20 February this year. We immediately acted by calling for public submissions, which we received by 21 March. We received three submissions, which the member has canvassed in detail. We then spent some 53 minutes hearing evidence from those witnesses, and a further 1 hour and 7 minutes considering the implications of that evidence. We then reported the bill back to the House on 29 April. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EContrary to any allegations of dilatory consideration, we spent more time dealing with the submissions than we did hearing the witnesses, we dealt with the bill speedily in a period of 2 months, and we have been waiting with eager anticipation the fate of these two pieces of legislation since that time. I need say no more, other than that the select committee worked well and constructively together, now looks forward to the measures passing, and resists absolutely any allegation that we did not discharge our responsibilities fully and thoroughly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002261ae0f4aa8d34e3fa69b17496393f273\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261ae0f4aa8d34e3fa69b17496393f273\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003EI want to address a number of important issues in this bill, but firstly I want to respond to the issues raised by the chair of the committee. I think he rightly says that the bill has been turned around in a very efficient time by the select committee, and I commend committee members. I simply want to point out the point that has been misinterpreted by him from my very competent colleague Paul Hutchison: it is a very long time from the point when the agreements were made by New Zealand to the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, and when this bill arrived before the House and progressed. My colleague Paul Hutchison is absolutely right to question the Government on why it took so long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI would like to address three substantive issues in the second reading of this bill. The first of those is that this Parliament has spent an inordinate amount of time on writing primary law dealing with issues of hazardous substances\u2014the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Act 1996, and repeated amendments have come through for the Stockholm convention, and others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut my problem is that one can have all the first-order law that one likes, but it is the second-order law, and particularly the regulations that come from our Environmental Risk Management Authority, that are going to deliver the real benefits for the environment. In that regard the process has been extremely tardy. There is a huge lack of proper standards for dealing with contaminated sites, for dealing with pentachlorophenol and other chemicals dealt with by this legislation. If we spent as much time on those standards as we did on the law, then our environment would be substantially better served. I want to challenge both the Ministry for the Environment and the Environmental Risk Management Authority in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe second issue I wish to raise with respect to the bill, as it has been reported back from the select committee, goes to the core of issues between Parliament and international organisations, and their respective roles. It is a good thing that New Zealand plays its role as a responsible nation and that it joins other countries in the development of conventions and international law. But this Parliament needs to be quite determined that it finally is sovereign over this country. I must note with some concern that if we provide legislation that states that parties to the Stockholm convention can go on and make further changes and amendments\u2014and they will, and that is quite proper\u2014then this Parliament must have the final say on any amendments that flow from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI worry that when we make changes to clause 4 in the Committee stage and we include the convention and any subsequent amendments to it, in some respects we are abrogating our responsibilities in terms of ensuring that it is we who write the law for New Zealand, and that here is the opportunity for New Zealand citizens who may be impacted on to have some say, which would be unlikely in a United Nations or international forum such as the body that has responsibility for the implementation of the Stockholm convention. While of course we should be open-minded about further changes that may be made to this convention, before any of those changes take legal effect they should come back to this Parliament so that we can endorse or reject them and give New Zealand citizens and businesses the opportunity to have a say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe third area in which I have an interest in the Stockholm convention and this bill is the way New Zealand is able to deal in a sensible and efficient way with previous chemicals, organic pollutants, and their disposal. The international community quite properly wants to provide some restriction on rich countries producing dangerous chemicals and then shipping them off to Third World nations where there is not the regulatory control, where there is bribery and corruption, and where the result is an inappropriate disposal of such chemicals in those countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo it makes good sense for the international community to come up with rules like the Stockholm convention to put restrictions on that, and to say to developed rich countries that if they make those dangerous chemicals they must be responsible for their disposal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBut one of my concerns is that large countries, such as European countries, or Japan, or the United States, have sufficient volumes to be liable to economically dispose of those chemicals. Whereas small countries like New Zealand, whether it is the transformer pentachlorophenol that is used\u2014which has been referred to by my colleague Paul Hutchison, the member for Port Waikato\u2014or whether it is those chemicals used in the niche horticultural industries in my own area, and we say that those chemicals have to be dealt with in New Zealand, then we actually make a very high price for those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EIt makes sense for us to work with Australia and with other Pacific countries on the disposal of those chemicals, quite simply because it is practical and efficient. My point is that we need to be pragmatic about it. If we allow those restrictions to be excessive, then we take away good practical solutions that can be found in combination with Pacific countries, with Australia, in providing appropriate ways and technologies for the disposal of those chemicals. So I initiate a word of caution in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E The last point I wish to make concerns the role of the Environmental Risk Management Authority in implementing these latest amendments to the Stockholm convention. We note that the authority is years behind. Its latest report to the select committee is that the provisions of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, which was passed by this Parliament 6 years ago, are not going to be fully implemented until after 2006. In fact, the authority\u2019s latest programme is suggesting 2008. That is glacial pace. That is ridiculously slow. Why does this Parliament go to all the effort of passing new laws if the Government is going to drag its feet to that extent in terms of implementing these laws? I will want to know from the Minister, during the Committee deliberations, whether we will get the same sort of snail\u2019s-pace implementation of these provisions from the Stockholm convention that we are seeing with the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E I also say that Parliament has to ask some tough questions with regard to the performance of the Environmental Risk Management Authority around the issues concerning new genetic organisms. There are articles in our newspaper this very day that raise serious questions about the authority\u2019s capacity to be able to deliver the goods. If we are going to pass these sorts of provisions, I want to make sure at the Committee stage that the Environmental Risk Management Authority has the capacity, the resources, and the drive to actually be able to give these sorts of provisions meaning. Passing all the laws in the world, and participating in all the international conventions we like, is not worth it if we do not have the local body\u2014in this case the New Zealand body, the Environmental Risk Management Authority\u2014getting on and doing its job. I leave the House with those points, and I look forward to the Committee stage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022855cd350f1c1440d987e571b9e5d2193\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f556e60a2d04e6aa396c215cd8b4127\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8f39ffa6a5e47d8a8e09eb40a711442\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8f39ffa6a5e47d8a8e09eb40a711442\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier in the day leave was sought, and granted by the House, for Graham Kelly\u2019s valedictory address to occur on Tuesday, 22 July at 5.30. I seek leave to change that date to Wednesday, 23 July at the same time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b48179ebc9c4cf590d2762baf414b6c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none. It will be so set down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bef5b76e2b0432e9723d39653c2b04e\u0022\u003EImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022caa3f3d252f444ecbb626b55412bcfbb\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c61d7b68ed7f49fc89f758246ffaf4e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c61d7b68ed7f49fc89f758246ffaf4e6\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of Commerce)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022909bf0e429d940398c76025c8648e52d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cd3391cababd4e90a6bcb04d36b7c1ed\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms(Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e68a42a97844656adb16cd4aaa42481\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00223afc57bdbdad4083bd56532e8b2dd5ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223afc57bdbdad4083bd56532e8b2dd5ee\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment)\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022862a2d9639ea45dab48d87a49379927f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d07ca889186c4f4fa0201c4c1fae42e4\u0022\u003EImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223fc9ba6b715e4a6ea14f28eeacbee60b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a8531c8e94ed455cb471e906ea689b1b\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002225ea60c47df2471faad4ddf2e7bc45a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002225ea60c47df2471faad4ddf2e7bc45a9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E The title of this bill might sound quite simple, but, again, we run into problems with the meaning of a title. Those who are familiar with the principal Act that this bill amends will know that the Act is not involved in exactly the same things as this amendment bill is. The title does not make clear exactly what this bill is doing. When there is such a title as \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u201D, the restrictions could be for any reason at all. This legislation does not make clear the fact that we are adding to the old Import Control Act 1988 a whole new dimension in the control of exports. The reason that is being done is to control the export of hazardous substances. The problem with the title is that one would not pick that up from reading it, at all. The restrictions being applied could be restrictions on exports for any reason. A restriction might be being applied, for example, to trout. In Zealand people are not allowed to export trout. They are not a hazardous substance. [Interruption] My colleague says people are allowed to export them but are not allowed to sell them. The point I make is that, quite clearly, there are restrictions that this title could refer to that are not covered at all by this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe bill is very specific. The bill in fact covers only certain hazardous substances. It is even more specific than that. It gives effect to particular conventions: the Rotterdam convention, the Stockholm convention, the Basel convention, and the Waigani convention. If people read the title \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u201D, they will have no notion that that is what the bill does. The restrictions could be for any purpose at all. My colleague Pansy Wong will be putting forward an amendment to the title, to make it clear that the restrictions being referred to are restrictions on hazardous substances. I think the Committee would have to agree that that was a sensible amendment, because it will assist someone looking through our statutes and trying to find the law relating to controls on the exports of hazardous substances. People would see from the title that that is what this legislation does. With the current title, someone reading through our statutes and checking the indexes would have no notion that the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Act in fact controlled the export of hazardous substances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhat makes the point even more clear is this bill\u2019s sister legislation, which we are also considering today\u2014the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. These two pieces of legislation cover very similar issues, yet the titles are totally different. From reading the titles, people would have no idea that these two pieces of legislation were actually involved in New Zealand\u2019s implementation of the Stockholm convention. That is not good law drafting. From the titles, there is no guidance that these two bills together enable us to comply with the requirements of the Stockholm convention. I think we have a problem with the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think that, at least, at a minimum, the title should be changed to what my colleague is going to recommend, which is that, following the word \u201CRestrictions\u201D, we put the words \u201Con Hazardous Substances\u201D. That would assist because, in principle, clause 9, which is the main functional clause, enables Orders in Council for the prohibition of the exportation of certain specified goods and classes. Those specified goods and classes, of course, are the substances covered by our commitments under the Rotterdam convention, the Stockholm convention, the Basel convention, and the Waigani convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI suppose that where this measure becomes more serious is over the issue of whether the Government intends to use this power more widely. That is the issue. Concern was expressed at the select committee\u2014and we will come to this when we get to Part 2\u2014that clause 9 gives a wider power than is absolutely necessary to meet our commitments under these conventions. Is it the Government\u2019s intention to go wider?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u002298a042aae6a845be95ad2d808bcecbba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298a042aae6a845be95ad2d808bcecbba\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I join my colleague Lockwood Smith in expressing concern about the title because of how wide it is. I want to draw a matter to the attention of the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Tamihere. In concluding, my colleague Lockwood Smith asked whether the Government was intending to use this measure for some other purpose. I want to talk to John Tamihere about an issue that is close to my heart. I notice that Ken Shirley is in the House, and he will know about this issue, too. We now have the Minister for the Environment in the chair, the Hon Marian Hobbs, which makes me now even more suspicious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis Government, in respect of the issue of sustainable native forestry, has proposed to use export restrictions on wood-chip from the South Island, even if it comes from sustainably managed forests. That is being used as a negotiating tool to screw down property owners\u2014in this case, M\u0101ori property owners. There has been a long, sad history of High Court decisions. The use of export controls has been contested in the highest court in the land. My concern about both the title\u2014a concern that Lockwood Smith rightly pointed out\u2014and the purpose is that there is no mention of hazardous substances. All we have is mention of restricting the exportation of certain goods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want the question that was raised by Lockwood Smith to be answered by the Minister in the chair. Will these provisions be narrowly defined to mean hazardous substances and the international obligations set out in clause 6; if so, why do the title, the purpose, and clauses 8 and 9 take things substantially further? We do not want to see the freedom of New Zealanders to be able to export other products being inadvertently used by Big Brother State to achieve policy objectives that are outside the international conventions that we have signed up to. It is particularly relevant in terms of the Government\u2019s own stated policy of wanting to put a ban on the export of sustainably produced timbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to know from the Minister and from the Government just what they are up to. Can I have an absolute assurance from the Minister in the chair, the Hon Marian Hobbs, that this bill will not be used as a vehicle for imposing that Government policy? Is the Minister, who is paid a ministerial salary, and gets a ministerial car and all those services, able to answer that question? Will this provision of export controls be able to be used to stop sustainably produced native forest products, as is stated Government policy? The silence is deafening. Given that the old Minister in the chair was deadly silent, can the new Minister in the chair, the Hon John Tamihere, whose South Island M\u0101ori have a very real interest in the stupid Government policy potentially to ban the export of sustainably produced native wood products, give me an absolute assurance that no current or future Government could use these provisions for that purpose?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022528995607095458d8592914a9dc51922\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: No current Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dfd5e2568ab4e19a65e76fc7b2975ce\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I see. The Minister has just said: \u201CWe won\u2019t, but someone else could.\u201D I say to the Committee that that is not good enough. I hope the Government will see fit to support amendments in the name of the Opposition that make it absolutely plain in the title, in the purpose clause, and in the operative provisions, which are clauses 8 and 9, that this bill is about hazardous substances only. If it goes beyond those provisions, then, quite frankly, members on this side of the Committee have quite a problem. This bill should not be used to restrict trade. We are a party that supports trade and supports the freedom of New Zealanders, where there are not environmental or other issues, to be able to trade their goods. I ask the Minister in the chair why we would pass legislation that gives power to any Government to go beyond the intent of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002221bc1caa49a74dcbaa0c1c480f246f20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221bc1caa49a74dcbaa0c1c480f246f20\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I must say that I too am extremely befuddled by the Government confining the title of this bill entirely to imports and exports. Clearly, in no way does that reflect the inextricable link that this bill has with the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. Those bills clearly interdigitate. I ask the Minister who is sitting opposite me to give me an assurance that anyone in New Zealand could in any way guess that this bill has anything to do with persistent organic pollutants. Yet it is inextricably linked with that. Therefore, it would have been only right and proper if this Government had actually thought about it and called this bill something along the lines of the \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions)\u201D\u2014because, indeed, restrictions are imposed, and, provided they do not go too wide, are beneficial for New Zealand\u2014and then added \u201Cand Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that not only the Stockholm convention but also the Rotterdam convention, the Waigani convention, and, of course, the Basel convention need to be mentioned when referring to the title of this bill. They are all interlinked with the fact that controls on imports and exports relating to persistent organic pollutants are required to be signed up to by international convention and treaty, of which it is, indeed, right and proper that New Zealand becomes a signatory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Government has been dilatory in terms of bringing this bill to the House, and I must say that I was deeply concerned to hear the chairman of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2014an excellent chairman, and an excellent committee\u2014suggest that any concern should be levelled at his committee for the dilatory way that this bill has been introduced to the House. That is not the case; it has been entirely the fault of the Government. This Government says it is interested in the environment, but has taken over 1\u00BD years to bring this absolutely appropriate legislation to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut we have a bill that has an absolutely befuddling restriction in its name. I again challenge the Minister to ask anyone in New Zealand whether this title in any way suggests that the bill has anything to do with persistent organic pollutants. I hope the Minister will take a call to explain the reason that the title is so narrow and is clearly not reflective of what the bill is supposed to achieve. It is important to realise that the Stockholm convention is very much an international convention, and unless a large number of countries throughout the world do sign up to it, that convention will naturally fail in its use. For instance, the United States has tended to comply with, but not to officially ratify, that sort of convention, because of the difficulties it has within the different states. The US was very keen on a technically science-based convention to act as a reference to the conventions that are associated with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4f6ba86057249b785070e3eec77e535\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4f6ba86057249b785070e3eec77e535\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E In addressing the title, I would have expected, as would other members, the Minister in the chair, the Hon. John Tamihere, to clarify the point that has been raised. It is a very valid point, and I had not picked it up until I quickly read the bill and followed the debate thus far. The point is this: what is the scope of this legislation? We do not know that. The general sentiment of the Committee is that we generally support the broad intentions of compliance with the Stockholm convention, and of limiting the trade in those hazardous substances, whether they are exported or imported. Certainly, we know that in the past some developed countries have taken advantage of the lack of controls and regulations in undeveloped countries, and exported their pollutants and wastes to them, and that is not good. The international community has adopted conventions, whether they are the Basel convention or the Waigani convention, to address those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EHowever, the point has been raised that the provisions of this bill are very general, particularly when we look at the title and then at the clauses under the title. I put the question that Dr Smith put to the Minister, of whether this bill would cover the ban on the export of beech chips in the South Island. Currently, there is a ban on the export of beech chips, and I ask whether the Government could use this legislation to do that. That ban is an utter nonsense, because we are talking about wood chips from sustainably managed forests. Surely the issue is whether there is an environmental impact. If the forest is being grown in a sustainable way, then one has complied with the environmental concerns. What one might then turn the product into, whether it is chips, sawn lumber, or whatever else, is not the business of the Government, and one should be free to export it in whatever form one likes. We do not tell our sheep farmers that all their wool has to go out as woolly jumpers, or tell our strawberry growers that all their strawberries have to go out as strawberry jam. So why cannot a person who is growing a beech forest sustainably export wood chips from it, when that has no environmental impact whatsoever? Such people are entitled to cut down their trees, and once they have cut them down, the environmental impact is totally neutral. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Minister should take a call. This is a very important issue. This country does have certain quirky export bans, for very spurious reasons, and we would be aghast if the intention is to use this legislation to extend those sorts of controls. We are very suspicious of the way that the bill is worded and, clearly, of the way that the title has been compiled. It is not good enough to say that this Government will not use this legislation in that way, but a future Government may do so. We are setting legislation in place here today. We are legislators, and it is important that we get things right. I know that the National Opposition has foreshadowed an amendment to address that issue. I would like the Minister at least to give an assurance that he will support that amendment, or otherwise, to take a call and tell us why he will not. This is a very valid point, and it has not been responded to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022859d16f500c949dbbe1a52f47965a393\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022859d16f500c949dbbe1a52f47965a393\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The explanatory note of this bill states that the key measures provide for the Governor-General, by Order in Council, to make regulations that prohibit the exportation of specific goods. Any prohibition may be general, limited, absolute, or conditional. That makes me even more worried. The first part of the explanatory note makes it very clear that the restrictions are on hazardous substances, but later on it states that the bill gives the Governor-General the power to impose any prohibition. I think that is too wide. I believe that my amendment to add the words \u201Con Hazardous Substances)\u201D after the word \u201C(Restrictions\u201D would make it very clear to the public what we are debating here today. It would also make the life of the Governor-General a lot easier. She would know, in effect, that Parliament wants her to exercise her authority to prohibit only the exportation of hazardous substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, we are debating this legislation under the urgency motion, and I did not have time to give plenty of notice that I would be putting forward my very sensible amendment. I know that I can count on my National colleagues to support me. I have discussed my amendment with New Zealand First members, and they can see its sense. Immediately, the Hon Ken Shirley, who is always quick off the mark and can focus concisely on an issue, said that of course he would support my amendment. Then I approached the two United Future members Marc Alexander and Paul Adams, and I said that I believed that United Future should see fit to support such a sensible amendment. However, I was concerned that before those two good members even had the opportunity to open their mouths the Labour senior whip, David Benson-Pope, stared at me and said I was wasting my time, because the United Future members would not vote for it. I thought I was talking to United Future; I was not seeking the support of the Labour Party whip for my amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThat was an abuse of the parliamentary process. I thought that this was a democratic House, where the public has voted us all in, and that we should be able to exercise our own judgment and independence, and to stand up for what we believe in. So the challenge is out this morning for the United Future members to demonstrate once and for all that they are not doormats for the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b2640cd7bb8465481df432d1db459bb\u0022\u003EOpposition Member\u003C/span\u003E: Puppets!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdaad2c1234e4d98972f4aa1d9a81b72\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG\u003C/span\u003E: I have always defended United Future, and said that surely all those labels are too harsh for that party, which believes in integrity and values. This morning is an opportunity for United Future to show its supporters and the public that it can indeed exercise its independence in voting, and will not be subject to coercion by the Labour whip. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Tamihere, should appreciate that the year is now 2003, and that we believe in being concise and upfront in terms of the purposes and titles of bills. The title \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill simply does not fit into the contemporary modern parliamentary process. The Labour Government always says that it believes in transparency, and claims that it keeps the public informed. The favourite statement of the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, is that she likes to tell it as it is. I hope that the Labour caucus will listen to its leader and agree to this very sensible amendment to add the words \u201Con Hazardous Substances\u201D. That would make the debate very clear and focused, and members of the Committee would not drift on to debate restrictions on imports and exports on salmon, trout, or any other goods.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00229c1d1eac30a94ab7b7fabb8646f3a3fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c1d1eac30a94ab7b7fabb8646f3a3fa\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00220f7b3c5e77a346c2ab05cdf282494891\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f7b3c5e77a346c2ab05cdf282494891\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I will just add to the very good arguments made by speakers from the Opposition side of the Chamber\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280461b4e94e54d15bd8d488d81ea89ef\u0022\u003EHon member\u003C/span\u003E: Brief, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b75b5a3596a4c87a03b324e3857638a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014brief too. I include the speakers from ACT and New Zealand First. This legislation is actually an access-to-justice issue. It is as important as that. There must now be thousands of Acts on the statute book, which everybody is supposed to comply with. With that comes an obligation on everybody\u2014from the most highly educated to the least-educated in this country, and from those with the greatest access to law to those with the least access to it\u2014to understand the law and to know what it is. That is expected, because ignorance is no excuse under the law. Therefore, it behoves us to help people a little bit, by making sure that a title bears some relationship to the contents of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe title \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u201D makes me think we have now gone into full socialism mode. Any exporter looking at that title on the Brookers list of statutes would think this legislation will stop them from exporting clothing, shoes, or something else. That is what that title looks like. It would be a simple little thing to fix the title. All that needs to be done is for this Parliament to work together, as it so often does, across the parties\u2014even with Labour and the \u201CPC party\u201D\u2014in the best interests of New Zealand. My colleague Pansy Wong has put up a very, very sensible suggestion. It is not frivolous; it is very sensible. Her amendment would insert after the word \u201C(Restrictions)\u201D the words: \u201Con Hazardous Substances\u201D, so that people looking through the statutes would know that this is the legislation that they need to look at in terms of the Stockholm and Rotterdam conventions, or of anything to do with hazardous substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAnother argument has been put forward today about whether there is a conspiracy going on\u2014whether the title is particularly wide and the contents are wide in order to allow some sort of restriction on the export of beech chips, for example. Some people would think that is trying to come the raw prawn, but I think there is a sensible argument there. I note that in Part 2, which we will address very soon, there is a very wide definition about what will be included. It really worries me that when we have these sorts of concerns, and when the farmers of New Zealand are asking what has gone wrong with this Government and the silly old Kyoto Protocol\u2014because it is putting a burp tax in place\u2014they will look at the title of this bill and wonder what it is about. That creates a tremendous amount of concern in the community, and it does not need to exist if things are properly explained. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI really do not understand why the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Tamihere, cannot see the sense of this amendment. He should talk to his own party and to the \u201CPC party\u201D. He should tell United Future that it actually is an independent party that can make up its own mind and act in the best interests of New Zealand, by saying this title should be amended to \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions on Hazardous Substances) Amendment Bill\u201D. That would mean that people who are looking for bills, and even the lawyers who have to deal with this area of environmental law and international law, can find the jolly thing and advise people, so that they do not break the law. Surely, as an access-to-justice issue, preventing people from breaking the law is far more beneficial to the community and to those people than allowing them to break the law, and then telling them afterwards they were had\u2014that they were fooled into thinking it was a bill about something else. It is very important, when the House is dealing with legislation, that when we can come up with some sensible amendments and suggestions, the parties should be a little bit bigger than they normally want to be, and try to think about what is in the best interests of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022 data-id=\u002212dea304aa1d47b98c1673b9ef36941e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224c6db5f1-6fdb-4ec1-b0d4-58c744b6f4cf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212dea304aa1d47b98c1673b9ef36941e\u0022\u003EGRAHAM KELLY (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225404606235214216889f88d9739835b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f07f8ae27f2041e09fe0516435e66fd0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I just remind members there must be silence during voting, otherwise it is very hard for the Clerk. All members should be sitting down during voting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Pansy Wong to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003Eto amend subclause (1) by inserting, after the word \u201CRestrictions\u201D, the words \u201Con Hazardous Substances\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bf84a00190d54d4a8e7e47575f4731b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022771c71d845214fc1bbca585c719920a5\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I observed that, after your admonition about silence, immediately after one of the parties had called out its vote, two members of the Opposition clearly interjected. We either have a rule that applies to everyone, or we do not. I ask that it be enforced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cdad6cad81046548df329d6917223ef\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259a4aa835cc9492facff09d17dd1bb32\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The Opposition whip has just assured me of that. The member is quite right. It is even worse\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6c500ff67774f268a0399528e7e996a\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I do not know what is acceptable outside the Chamber, but the gesture that has just been made to me by Ms Collins is totally unacceptable, and I ask that she withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f78e54a0d18435cb3cc4ca0f1eb7816\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not see an inappropriate gesture. Would the member stand and indicate whether that happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223dafc779466495c89cd1a27e1ba607c\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: It did not, Madam Chairperson. I think the member has misinterpreted a wave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022fb2a2ee644725a3f1fc58c67ba301\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s word must be accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f806120cfa248d3bf2919e687970b33\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is very unusual to wave with an upturned hand and one finger extended. I take offence and I ask for a withdrawal and an apology please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0f8f3bd889349d3a413e88e2425453f\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I happened to see the wave, and maybe that is because I am closer. But there were a number of fingers and it was this sort of wave, rather than one hand and one finger. I suggest it was a wave of acknowledgment rather than any other sort of gesture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdd85ca986ef499b8f43239d0a80a5f5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s word is accepted, but I ask members to heed the warning that was given. Certainly, this would not have happened had a comment not been made. It is even worse to make a comment on the content of the voting. I really caution members again, because it has happened several times and it is not good enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4046ddcbaf4489398f8df9cd3be5851\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the ACT member Ken Shirley whether he wishes to interpret the vote he has given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265050f36b82b41c89bf4216ca079d6c7\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I will wait for the interpreter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220368af937bcd4a02a081ded1a2576d84\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I will ask the Hon John Tamihere to interpret, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc6880458c054409b7bdd9657076bfdc\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: I thought he said \u201C8 in favour\u201D. I wonder whether he could confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cb35b5aa95849c48907f58fbef0dada\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. We are in a curious situation here. I am entitled to cast the ACT vote in M\u0101ori, which I chose to do. The House pays for an interpreter to do the job. You then called the Minister in the chair, a member of a Government party, who said he was not sure, and asked whether I could confirm it. That is a bizarre situation. In that situation, I think we should call for the interpreter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221441064ebefe482ba323adead6ace479\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please be seated. I remind him that it is the prerogative of the Chair to call a person to interpret. I will ask the member to repeat his vote, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca4a3d3db94d4354b46cd6218d28c6ed\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: The interpreter has just arrived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b91b5109bea4a95a532aec410ec6856\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to repeat his vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223f6f20f55ea745dd940acfd73abdcca1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f00f7f50bb1745ab91bcfd05e5307d01\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00229571fb8cc81d46aaab420699ab192a51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229571fb8cc81d46aaab420699ab192a51\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I am intrigued by Part 1. It contains the commencement clause and the purpose clause. It is interesting that the commencement date, the day the legislation comes into force, is the day after the date on which it receives the royal assent. That in itself is not surprising; we have had that before. What is surprising is that this bill addresses two conventions: the Rotterdam convention, signed on behalf of New Zealand by Don McKinnon on 11 September 1998, and the Stockholm convention, signed on 23 May 2001. A number of years have passed since those times. It is nearly 5 years since the Rotterdam convention was signed, and 2 years since the Stockholm convention was signed. This bill has been introduced at a very late date. We understand that it is to come into effect on the day after it receives the royal assent, which I assume will be within the next few days, or certainly within a week. That tells me that this Government is not a Government of action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI know we have covered the title, but why is it that we do not acknowledge in the title the fact that the bill addresses the Stockholm convention and the Rotterdam convention, and, in terms of the commencement date, why has this bill been introduced so late in the piece? Are those two conventions important to this Government, or are they not? The Labour Government has been in office for 4 years, and it has known about the significance of the Stockholm convention since 1998. It thinks that convention is so significant that there has not been much in the way of speeches from the Minister in the chair, John Tamihere, or from members on the Government side. The Government did not introduce the bill into the House until now, when we are in urgency in 2003, and not until 5 years after one convention was signed and 2 years after another convention was signed. So I put it to members that although we are seeing something purposeful\u2014the fact that the legislation comes into effect on the day after it receives the royal assent\u2014this Government has been very sluggish indeed in the way it has brought in legislation to give effect to its obligations under those two conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to see the Minister in the chair and his Labour Party colleagues address the Committee on this matter. I would like them to tell us why the Government has been so sluggish in bringing in legislation to give effect to our obligations under those conventions, which it considers so very, very important\u2014so important that it brings the legislation to the House under urgency. Here we are; all of us held back from working in our constituencies with a bill that parties generally support\u2014a bill that Government members consider so important to sign off on and get royal assent for. Yet it has been 5 years since the Stockholm convention was actually signed by Don McKinnon on behalf of New Zealand. I put that to the Minister; I would like him to address that issue. The second clause in Part 1 is the purpose clause, which states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to give better effect to its international obligations \u2026\u201D. Clearly, this Government does not feel particularly obligated if it has taken it 5 years to act on the Stockholm convention. Clearly, this Government does not take its obligations too seriously if it has taken it 2 years to act on the Rotterdam convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022633f1e90d418411686b0535a222d52ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022633f1e90d418411686b0535a222d52ae\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E My concern about Part 1 is threefold. The Rotterdam convention relates to the exchange of hazardous chemicals, and is really about sustainability. The concern I have about this whole concept is that there is a fundamental belief that pervades the left\u2014that trade is unsustainable; that one does not build prosperity without building trade\u2014and it seems to be unable to take the steps that enables a free flow of trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe have heard very eloquent speeches and addresses from a former Prime Minister, Mike Moore, on the importance of trade. However, the very first thing this Government did was to restrict trade by increasing the tariffs on clothing and footwear. That harmed New Zealand consumers and it harmed international trade. Thus it harms welfare generally\u2014both in the developing countries that want to sell those goods, and for ourselves as the consumers who want to buy them cheaply. So it is a fundamentally flawed philosophy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister in the chair, John Tamihere, who has been carefully analysing this bill\u2014because people are mooting him as a future Minister for Economic Development\u2014will be noting that. But the bill is not really about that; it is about hazardous chemicals. That, of course, is true, and no one is going to suggest we should be freely releasing into the environment polychlorinated biphenyls, persistent organic pollutants, and so on. But if we have too great a number of restrictions on trade that are multilaterally driven, then we end up limiting trade. It is all very easy to sign up to these conventions one by one\u2014all of which look perfectly reasonable on the face of it, and I acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that it was National that signed up on them, but we also have to step back and ask whether, overall, this is promoting trade. That is one of the points I wish to make. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMy second point is about the use of urgency to deal with legislation that, to be honest, most members support. I find it something of an abuse of the Government process that the Government is using urgency for quite specious reasons; to put through what I would call largely machinery-type legislation. In fact, I would go further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E If the Government had chosen not to deal with this legislation in urgency, and had dealt with it in the normal course of events, there might well be a shorter debate. The Government might therefore ask why we are raising the issue. We are raising it because there is a point of principle. Urgency is supposed to be used for matters that are, in the eyes of the Government, urgent and in the public good. Obviously, the Opposition will not agree with that generally, but at least in the eyes of the Government that is what urgency is supposed to be used for. This use of urgency would have to be the most frivolous use of urgency that I have seen in the 6 years I have been in Parliament. Almost all the legislation\u2014with the exception of the immigration legislation that was dealt with yesterday, and the health professionals legislation\u2014is essentially non-contentious. I would say to the Government that when it is thinking about good parliamentary process, it should reserve urgency for the issues for which it can put up a genuine case. It should not use it just as the machinery of good Government. I accept that the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, even though it is poorly named as my colleague pointed out, is essentially good Government machinery, but I think it is an abuse of the urgency process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMy third point is that I note that the Ministry of Economic Development is New Zealand\u2019s competent authority in relation to this legislation. I note that we have in the chair a Minister who has been widely touted in the media as being the next Minister for Economic Development. So I would like to hear from the Minister today where he sets out his philosophy for economic development. I have been reading articles that he has written, and he must have a coherent philosophy on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00226d21f75635114693b5a40c7e18cba9c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d21f75635114693b5a40c7e18cba9c1\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Part 1, I think it is important to focus on the second clause, and that is the purpose clause. What has become of concern to National while this debate has progressed is the fact that the purpose the Government intends is not clear on the face of this bill, at all. The Government claims that the purpose of this legislation is to enable it to implement its international obligations under those various conventions: the Stockholm convention, the Rotterdam convention, the Basel convention, and the Waigani convention. If that is the case, it should be stated in the purpose. That is why I am moving an amendment to clause 3. My amendment inserts after the words \u201Cinternational obligations\u201D the words \u201Cas specified in section 2(1) of the principal Act.\u201D The effect of inserting those words would be to establish that the purpose of this legislation is to restrict the exportation of certain goods in relation to the international obligations specified in section 2(1)\u2014the section that specifies the conventions we are signed up to. It specifies the Rotterdam convention, the Stockholm convention, the Basel convention, and the Waigani convention, and it allows for any other international obligation that will become binding on New Zealand. The reason that is important is that it leaves no doubt as to the Government\u2019s purpose, and without putting that into the purpose, and given the broad nature of clause 9 in Part 2, it is quite clear that the Government could use this legislation for other purposes, and that is wrong. I think the Minister should take the call and tell the Committee whether it is intended that this legislation should be used only for export constraints relating to those international obligations. Otherwise, it is simply open-ended legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI think it is important that the Government gives consideration to this amendment because the purpose is not sufficiently clear. The Government could claim that it is regulating to impose exportation restrictions on certain goods in relation to all kinds of perceived international obligations. Whereas, if we refer to section 2(1) of the principal Act, we make clear the international obligations the Government is driven by in imposing the export restriction. I think it is a perfectly sensible amendment that I am proposing. I am sure it is one that other Opposition parties would support, because it does make more clear the purpose of this bill. When my colleague the Hon Dr Nick Smith asked the Minister to clarify to the Committee whether it was intended to use clause 9 in Part 2 of this bill for a purpose beyond the hazardous-substance requirements of these conventions, the Minister would not answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e19facbcb4241678db9724c19f5732e\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4415d5a841d4ea19ea9a65efa353af2\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Minister just went \u201CHumph!\u201D I say to the Hon John Tamihere that a young Minister should take his legislation seriously. The purpose is important. One does not have a purpose clause in a bill if it is not important. It is an important part of the legislation, and it should establish the purpose very clearly. But it does not, and that is why I argue that the amendment I have proposed would help clarify the purpose of the legislation. It would tie it back into the conventions that the Government claims it will be able to uphold by passing this legislation. So I strongly urge the Government to consider that simple amendment, which inserts after the words \u201Cinternational obligations\u201D, the words \u201Cas specified in section 2(1) of the principal Act.\u201D That then makes the purpose of this legislation much clearer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf the Minister does not take a call, and if the Government does vote against that amendment, it brings into question absolutely what the Government\u2019s purpose is with this legislation. Either it is intended to do what it says it will do, or the Government has some ulterior use. That is the worry, and the select committee was concerned. At the select committee we were told that the Government has no intention to exceed the requirements of the international obligations listed in clause 6\u2014and I cover those in my amendment because they are in section 2(1) of the principal Act. If the Government told the select committee it has no intention to exceed those obligations, it should make it clear on the face of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002207f8d0f66ce142cdbe72183faf6c06ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f8d0f66ce142cdbe72183faf6c06ba\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to indicate at the outset ACT New Zealand\u2019s support for the amendment just outlined by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. It is a very sensible amendment, and it should be right up there in clause 3, the purpose clause, which is in Part 1. That is where it must be spelt out. The clause, as it is at present, states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to give better effect to its international obligations \u2026\u201D. But that is a vague statement. We have all manner of international obligations, and, if it is the case that Part 2, as it suggests, is confined to the Basel convention, the Waigani convention, and others, then why should we not say so in the purpose clause? That is where people will take their lead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EIt is a very serious matter when Governments start imposing restrictions and controls on trade. Trade is the lifeblood of prosperity\u2014a wealth generation. Through the ages trade has occurred between clans, tribal chieftainships, and kingdoms. In the modern global market economy trade between nations is critical, and the freer the better. All the evidence in the world suggests that the more unrestricted the trade the greater the mutual benefit for both parties engaging in the trade. So restrictions are serious. One does not do them lightly. I fear this Government\u2019s natural tendency to be a control freak\u2014to enjoy controlling everything. It is a worry. It is the socialist way, of course. Socialists tend not to like trade. They think there is something dirty about commerce and trade. But it is the lifeblood of prosperity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe therefore call on the Minister to spell it out for us. We raised an example in the debate on the title, and we raise it again here in this debate on Part 1. The example was outlined by Dr Smith, and I support him on it. Will the legislation be confined to the conventions in the bill? If the answer is yes, then the legislation should state that it is. We see under clause 6\u2014I know it is in Part 2, but it relates to this aspect of Part 1\u2014that it just says \u201Cany other international obligation\u201D. It does not confine the legislation to the conventions outlined. That is what we are asking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E We are concerned about some of these international obligations. Increasingly, bureaucrats and Government officials go to committee meetings all around the world. Often the non-governmental community, without any mandate or any accountability, has a huge influence on some UN committees. One would not believe some of the nonsense that bureaucrats sign up to and commit us to at these international fora. We are then at risk of importing those commitments into our domestic law, through the back door. I drafted a member\u2019s bill that covered this issue, and Keith Locke had a parallel one, also expressing concern but for quite different reasons. My concern is that we get all sorts of wacky lobby groups that capture UN committees, then impose controls on what should be unfettered trade. We accept that we support the intentions of the Basel convention, the Stockholm convention, and the Waigani convention. We are not arguing against that. But if the legislation is confined to that\u2014if the answer is yes, it is\u2014then the Minister should say so and put it in the purpose clause. That is what Dr Smith\u2019s amendment does, so I ask the Committee to please support it. If the answer is no, then we have very great cause to be concerned. The very problem that we are outlining would prevail, and in the future we could have all manner of Governments and people using this legislation to try to control, restrict, and limit trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe woodchip case is exactly one such example. We can say we can produce woodchips from sustainably managed beech only, but then have an export restriction on woodchips. There is no logic in that. There is no point in that. We are fearful that a Government that is captured by lobby groups and powerful non-governmental groups could very well inappropriately use these sorts of measures for no good purpose, and, in fact, for considerable harm to the economy. I say to the Minister that it is a very straight issue. Could he please hop up on his hind trotters and tell us whether it is confined to those conventions\u2014yes or no. If \u201CYes\u201D, it should vote for the amendment; if \u201CNo\u201D, then we have to be very worried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7547d7ecfb94f5dbdf72aa556a0bbc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7547d7ecfb94f5dbdf72aa556a0bbc8\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I have three quick points in response to members\u2019 queries. Firstly, I acknowledge and commend members for supporting the bill, to the extent that it aligns our legislation with our international conventions. Secondly, the export controls can relate only to the international obligations as defined in the bill. The simple answer to the question raised by the Hon Nick Smith and colleagues is no. The final point I make is that there is a very strong protection mechanism, notwithstanding, and that is with regard to the Order in Council process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00228e8220833d9b48088ad85ff9846a1dd3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e8220833d9b48088ad85ff9846a1dd3\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It was indeed interesting to hear the Minister, and I am glad that he commends the support from the Opposition parties for this bill, which generally indeed is appropriate. But in focusing on Part 1, which deals with both the commencement and the purpose, I would particularly like to support my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u2019s amendment that clause 3 be amended by inserting after the words \u201Cinternational obligations\u201D the words \u201Cas specified in section 2(1) of the principal Act.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is absolutely no doubt that the purpose, which, as stated, is to enable New Zealand to give better effect to its international obligations to restrict the exportation of certain goods, does not in any way enlighten us as to what those obligations are, or the depth and width of them, and it is very important that we do have a bit of precision. After all, if we look at the commencement date, we see that this bill was introduced to the House in May 2002. This is a non-controversial bill that, if passed, would show the goodwill and the compliance of New Zealand to its international obligations. But, sadly, this dilatory Labour Government just waited and waited before finally bringing it to the House under urgency. That is an indictment on the way it does business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI reiterate the point that it is almost an instinctive impulse of a socialist Labour Government to have the word \u201Crestrictions\u201D in the title of a bill. As I think the Hon Ken Shirley pointed out, is this again the Pavlovian dog rethinks coming out once more\u2014control, restrict? This is the Labour Government that we know of old. Its true instincts are once again coming out. The amendment suggested by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith is eminently sensible, because, after all, one of the international conventions we are concerned about is the Rotterdam convention, which was signed by New Zealand as long ago as September 1998. It requires New Zealand to exchange information between parties about trade in hazardous chemicals, before any trading takes place. Parties may consent to allow importation, impose conditions on imports, or not consent to the trade at all, control exports, and notify an international secretariat of all additional chemicals currently banned or severely restricted at national level. The convention currently lists 31 chemicals, and of course there is the ability to add to or subtract from that list, as is appropriate. The other two conventions that are appropriate are the Stockholm convention, and the Waigani convention, which was signed in Papua New Guinea as long ago as 1995. The Waigani convention bans the importation into forum island countries of hazardous and radioactive wastes, and controls the transboundary movement and management of hazardous wastes within the South Pacific region. That convention was finalised by Pacific forum countries, Australia, and New Zealand as long ago as 16 September 1995. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOnce again we see here a hugely important aspect of this legislation that is not at all implied in the title or the purpose clause. I must say that it is wonderful to have in the Chamber people like Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith, who has such a tremendous sense of knowledge and institutional experience that he can make such eminently good amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00220d37b539c8704eafbbc95337ca15c23c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d37b539c8704eafbbc95337ca15c23c\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80398f0a3b14c80a64f61efc9267a22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80398f0a3b14c80a64f61efc9267a22\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I speak in relation to Part 1. Clearly, clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, simply states that the Act comes into force on the day after the date on which it receives the royal assent. Clause 3 then goes on to talk about the purpose of the bill. The purpose, as stated, is to enable New Zealand to give better effect to its international obligations to restrict the exportation of certain goods. Unfortunately, those \u201Ccertain goods\u201D are not stated anywhere, and therefore it has given us tremendous cause for concern. I wonder, at the end of the day, whether we should be supporting all of this bill. Obviously some of us will be making further suggestions for amendments to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI note Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith has moved that clause 3 be amended by inserting after the words \u201Cinternational obligations\u201D, the words \u201Cas specified in section 2(1) of the principal Act.\u201D I think that is very important because it is during urgency that all sorts of bills come before the House, and invariably get passed in one form or the other, and not a lot of thought goes into all of the clauses. Quite often there are catch-all clauses and catch-all phrases that are supposed to save the time and effort of coming back to the House to amend bills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E It is very important that whatever we put through in these times, we have to take particular care with it. A lot of these bills have been languishing, and this bill has been languishing since last year. I note that the bill itself is well over a year overdue, since the date of the Stockholm agreement, yet nowhere in the bill does it actually state what the exportation of those certain goods are. Later on, the bill tells us that maybe certain goods means the things referred to in Part 2, which seem to be \u201Ccertain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EBut almost anything can pose a risk to the environment\u2014even the Minister for the Environment. We would say that plastic bags are certainly a risk to the environment if they are uncontrolled and not dealt with in a sensible way. Yet will this bill in fact be used to stop the export of goods that are packed in plastic bags or polystyrene, or all those sorts of things? None of the polystyrene or plastic goods do any good at all for the environment\u2014certainly not in their current form. So this sort of bill could be used to stop that. Is that a sensible use of the Stockholm or Rotterdam conventions? I say that it is not. The purpose clause of this bill should be extended to include exactly what we are talking about with these \u201Ccertain goods\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition, the Hon Ken Shirley posed the question about beech chip that supposedly will be stopped from being exported. In my opinion, that matter could come under new paragraph (e) in section 2(1) of the principal Act, inserted by clause 6(1), as one of the \u201Ccertain goods\u201D referred to in clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D. I am sure that somebody in the Government would say that that was a risk to the environment, to human health, or to both. Consequently, it is very important that we put in place bills that are finite because, at the end of the day, this Parliament should not be trying to restrict trade. It should be about encouraging trade and doing business but, at the same time, promoting a healthy and decent environment in which we, our children\u2014for those of us fortunate enough to have children\u2014and, hopefully, one day, our grandchildren can grow up in. So that those of us who feel\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abdc1bac8ea243ffb5ca842f70e12875\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Some of us do already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9e318bb75c4daa897e1fe6da530f5a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I hear that several members are grandparents. Well done! It is important that we do this, and it is absolutely important\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e75cf7b3cd2642d991e116dfd02d1045\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: And I am a father.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224794aa3dfe184ebb9d4f72ccec49cabd\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ron Mark wants it noted in Hansard that he is a father. Well done! I come back to the purpose of the bill. I say that it should be very strictly defined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002204bffb9e56b14ab0b947420f49b98a5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204bffb9e56b14ab0b947420f49b98a5f\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fe409f1eb32b48adbb9b4a99f812b62c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000281\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000282\u0022\u003Eto insert, after the words \u201Cinternational obligations\u201D, the words \u201C, as specified in section 2(1) of the principal Act\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a09f0d782fc949c4a0b140907a79de90\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000283\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d55c6b065d494bae99911cce16b2d9e9\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30f5a16f37e48798d9a480daaf931db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30f5a16f37e48798d9a480daaf931db\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to speak specifically on two issues found in new sections 3A and 3B, inserted by clause 9, concerning the prohibition of exports and the conditional prohibition of exportation. I know that my colleagues have some very thoughtful and considered amendments for those sections, which I would like to speak on later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI ask members to think of this situation: a lawful activity occurs in New Zealand that results in the production of the goods to be exported. We then have to ask why we would be lawfully producing these goods in New Zealand, but then prohibiting their export. It seems a far more sensible and proper approach, if there is a concern about the environment\u2014and this is, in essence, what this legislation is about\u2014to prohibit the production of the goods in the first instance. That, presumably, is where the mischief is caused. I cannot believe that it would be the intent of the Government to allow New Zealand businesses to produce goods for internal and domestic consumption, or to use those goods within the industrial process, but then not to allow those goods to be exported. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESurely we should have a principled approach that says if the goods are permissible in New Zealand then they are permissible for export. If that is not the position, then I feel we have done exactly what the Hon Ken Shirley raised\u2014signed up to a series of international conventions that, on the face of it, look well intentioned. I note that they specifically focus on persistent organic products that get bound into the food chain in particular, and I guess most people would recognise the dangers of those; that seems rational. But surely those goods are also prohibited from being manufactured in New Zealand. That is the question I would like the Minister to address. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhat are we trying to do here? Are we trying to prevent exports, or are we trying to prevent the production of those goods? There should be a single test, and that test should be: if the goods are genuinely dangerous to the environment in any shape or form, then the production itself should be banned. I can think of dioxin as a particularly good example of that, as it is a persistent organic product that one would want to prevent from being produced or admitted into the environment. After all, the explanatory note states that: \u201CPersistent organic pollutants (POPs)\u201D\u2014and dioxins and those kinds of products are included in that category\u2014\u201Care amongst the most highly toxic substances on Earth. They are transported by ocean and air currents, and bioaccumulate in the tissues of living organisms. There are clear human health and environmental advantages to their substantial reduction and elimination where feasible.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThat is all very well and good, and I think generally acknowledged as a desirable outcome. The approach that I would commend to the Committee is to ban their production. Thereby, that will necessarily mean we do not get exports, because we cannot export something we cannot create in the first instance. What is now raised by the structure of the legislation is the prospect that we can quite lawfully produce things in New Zealand, but we cannot export them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI turn to another point. The view is often taken that, for instance, plastic bags are a terrible pollutant, but in fact they are not. They are an efficient use of resources. The mass of an individual plastic bag is vastly less than a paper bag. It is hugely less. It would be in the order of one-twentieth, in weight terms. Plastic bags take less energy to produce, they are more useful for the purpose for which they are manufactured, and when they are disposed of\u2014presumably in a landfill\u2014we have lost virtually no resources at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022d30aad225f0a4d34911d10d3f81ad4a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d30aad225f0a4d34911d10d3f81ad4a8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 of the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill is the part that has the action in it. Clause 9 in particular empowers the Government, by Order in Council, to set regulations and prohibitions on exports. It is quite informative to go back to the Act we are amending\u2014the old Import Control Act of 1988. I have it right here. That Act does not have anything to do with hazardous substances. It has nothing to do with the conventions we are talking about today. The old Import Control Act empowers the Government to control imports, to prohibit the import of goods of any specified class or classes\u2014and it goes on. That is why we are so concerned about the width of the powers that this amendment to the Act gives the Government under clause 9. If we look at clause 9, we see that it is a very broad power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EUnder new section 3A, \u201CProhibition of exports\u201D, inserted by clause 9, it is stated: \u201C(1) The Governor-General, if satisfied that it is necessary to give effect to an international obligation, may, by Order in Council, prohibit the exportation from New Zealand \u2026\u201D. I have proposed an amendment to that clause to tie it in more tightly to the international obligations spelt out in section 2(1) of the principal Act. I know that some could say that that is not totally necessary, but it makes it far clearer. If there were no confusion about this matter, why was the select committee concerned about it? The select committee noted that the powers being given to the Government in that provision enabled it to exceed what was required by those conventions. The select committee was concerned about that, and that is why the committee questioned the Government on it. I am not sure, though, that we should be satisfied with the answer, which is \u201Cthat the Government has no intention to exceed the requirements \u2026 listed in clause 6 of the bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELet me summarise my concerns. The Act we amend, the Import Control Act, is very broad, powerful legislation that enables the Government to ban any imports. We are amending that very wide empowering legislation with this amendment bill, which, although it will not give quite such broad powers with regard to restricting exports, will still give very broad powers. There are two possibilities the Government could choose to overcome these concerns. One is my proposed amendment to clause 9, which would limit the powers the Government is being given under clause 9 to set regulations very tightly back to the international obligations in clause 6. Another possibility, which I think my good colleague Judith Collins will be proposing, is to delete new paragraph (e) inserted by clause 6(1), because that provision again gives the Government far broader power. I will not say too much about that, because I want Judith Collins to be able to describe her proposed amendment, but I think the fact that we are both putting up amendments to try to limit the breadth of the power that clause 9 is giving the Government, shows the extent of concern about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI tell the Committee that it was something the select committee was concerned about. Members will notice that its report on the bill does not say: \u201CThe minority on the select committee were concerned about it.\u201D It was a general select committee concern. In fact, my notes on the day record that we talked about it. I noted that we had quite a lot of debate at the select committee over this issue of whether the legislation intended to provide for prohibition of exports beyond that required by those conventions. At the select committee that day, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials told us that that would risk constraining trade. They did not say it could not be done, but my notes here record that they reminded us that it would risk constraining trade. What happens if we get a Government that is even more left wing than this one and does not care about trade? This legislation would enable such a Government to constrain trade. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade officials went on to say that the legislation might risk breaching our trade obligations, but those trade obligations are not the tightest, given where international agreements have got to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo there is a genuine concern, and I commend the Government to consider the two amendments to Part 2 that the National Party is putting forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00222217093e34424835801915798e80a961\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222217093e34424835801915798e80a961\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E This debate on Part 2 is becoming quite repetitive. I do not mean that in an obstructive or unhelpful way, but I believe the debate is on the same theme. We want to support this legislation; I get that from all parties. We are telling the Government we are right behind the legislation, because it is sensible, and successive Governments have engaged in those international agreements\u2014the Waigani, the Rotterdam, the Stockholm, and so on and so forth. But I say to the Minister that it is clear we are concerned that the legislation will be extended to cover substances other than those specified in those international agreements. Amendments have been proposed, not to go against the Government\u2019s policy direction or upset it in any way, but to spell out and make quite clear what we as legislators intend to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EAgain, in Part 2 it is directly applicable. Section 3A, \u201CProhibition of exports\u201D, inserted by clause 9, states: \u201C(1) The Governor-General, if satisfied\u201D\u2014in other words, restrictions can be removed if the Governor-General is satisfied\u2014\u201Cthat it is necessary to give effect to an international obligation \u2026\u201D. I emphasise the word \u201Can\u201D. That could be any international obligation. We are saying it should specify those international obligations outlined earlier on in the bill. That is all we are asking for; that would spell it out very clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have had well-drafted amendments, and I suggest that the Minister should just admit that the Opposition has made some very valid points here. It is not really a question of pride, because I know that the Minister is bigger than that. We are from the Opposition, we are here to try to help the Minister, and we ask her to adopt our amendments. I call upon United Future to see the logic of that, please, even if the Minister does not. United Future members should not be doormats. They should not just roll on their backs with their legs in the air and say, \u201CTickle my tummy.\u201D They should stand up for what they believe in, because it is so obvious that this amendment is sensible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe see it there in new section 3A inserted by clause 9, and also in section 2(1)(e) in clause 6, \u201CInterpretation\u201D: \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand and that provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment\u201D\u2014that is, everything. It could be plastic bags. It speaks of any future obligation, so one of those wacky, non-governmental organisation - controlled UN forums could adopt a ban on plastic bags. We had a very good speech about plastic bags being friendlier to the environment than paper bags; that is the reality\u2014but it could be on fat, on sugar, or on oxygen. Oxygen is potentially very dangerous to the human body in its pure form\u2014very, very dangerous. This is the nonsense we get into when we have these omnibus-type clauses expressed as generally as that, so I think the suggestion of deleting the proposed new paragraph (e) is sensible. That provision is not necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe other recommendation, which is the repeated theme, is that we specify and confine the restriction to those substances covered by the international agreements, which the Government itself has acknowledged that it intends to do. Opposition parties say that we should make the bill state what we are all in agreement on. We all agree that it should be restricted to those substances covered by those international agreements, and that the bill should say so. The Government can understand our worry, particularly when we see the generality contained in that new paragraph (e) inserted by clause 6(1). It speaks of any substance, and of any future obligation. We do not know what the future holds for some of those UN forums, and we really are tying our hands in an unnecessary way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe solution looks very clear. Perhaps the Minister should have a chat with her officials and talk to her colleagues. Perhaps she should give the Leader of the House, Michael Cullen, a ring. I am sure he would see the logic of this sensible amendment. We would give the Minister credit for recognising the merits of these amendments, rather than just arrogantly refusing to accept them and leaving the problem in the legislation. The Government has the numbers. We accept that, but often in life the more power one has, the more responsible one has to be: the greater the power, the greater the humility. This is a good example of when the Government should recognise a good idea when the idea is presented to it. I urge the Government to adopt it, then we can move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022003bf6364cdf4699829632a4e1adcfd2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003bf6364cdf4699829632a4e1adcfd2\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak to Part 2 of the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, and in particular to propose that new paragraph (e) amending section 2(1) of the principal Act, contained in clause 6(1) of the bill, be deleted. I ask that that happen because I believe it is very important that, no matter what we in Parliament do and no matter what the Government does, New Zealand does not get landed with international obligations decided by a group of non-governmental organisations, as mentioned by the previous speaker, that never come before the House. That is one of the real problems we have. Paragraph (e) includes as an international obligation \u201Cany other international obligation\u201D\u2014that is, in addition to the conventions that have been mentioned\u2014\u201Cthat is or becomes binding on New Zealand and that provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or the environment\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe have talked about plastic bags and beech chips\u2014or chipped beeches\u2014this morning. We could also talk not only about oxygen but also about things used by defence forces around the world. I understand there is an industry in New Zealand that supplies items of defence to the defence forces around the world. Of course, our own Defence Force cannot afford them. I would hate to see that sort of industry in peril because some wacky Minister, either in this Government or in another Government, decides that some wacky overseas group\u2019s view sounds like a really good idea. It is very important that, no matter what we do in Parliament, we are here to do the best for New Zealand in our own way. Clearly, New Zealand does not want us passing wide-ranging Acts that state that Governments, or officials who work for Governments, can sign us up to obligations that Parliament is bound by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have talked to members of other parties whom I thought would see some sense, and I have been heartened by the support from ACT New Zealand\u2014the liberal party\u2014and New Zealand First, as well as my own National Party. I was very disappointed with United Future. The reason I was particularly disappointed was that United Future members told me they have a 2-day rule, which means one has to give them an amendment 2 days before the bill comes to the House. I explained to them that they could not do that sort of thing, because they are supporting the Government that has put us into urgency, and, no doubt, it has discussed with them the bills that it will put forward, but we in the Opposition do not get the chance to know what is in the Government\u2019s mind. I am sure the Government does not even know what is in the Government\u2019s mind, most of the time. Here we have an amendment that clearly is for the betterment of New Zealand and this bill. We would all be very happy to support the bill, absolutely and unreservedly, if we could get some sensible amendments to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe do worry about what could happen. The Government has sat on this stuff for the last 4 or 5 years without doing anything about it, and is now rushing it through. We are being told it might take some time to fix up any other agreement, so we must have this omnibus provision that means that anything is included as long as we can say it could pose a risk to human health or the environment. Anything can do that. Does it include tobacco being exported? I presume it would.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3a22484d2bd411c872ed615887a0ccd\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: We used to grow a lot of tobacco.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca7b11183f743ada622de18107fa0de\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: We still do. There are all sorts of things we could talk about here. Alcohol would certainly be something that can pose a risk to human health, and I am sure that some members here would agree with me on that one\u2014not naming anyone in particular. This is an important issue. We should be making law that is very, very specific. It should identify the problem and deal with it specifically. We do not need a Parliament to provide laws that are wishy-washy, go on for ever and have no end, and are just there in general terms; we could just get rid of it and have a dictator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00224bf85efe5b06412da006266d16881b82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bf85efe5b06412da006266d16881b82\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002258509f23493745c8a796c114381902ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258509f23493745c8a796c114381902ba\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222669c86c01c84fd0a84e2bb19ebb6896\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt the member. It is a point of clarification as to what our House rules are. I was enjoying my hot cup of Milo, and I was advised by one of the messengers that the rules are that we can have glasses of cold water but we cannot have mugs of hot Milo. Is that the ruling? I am not trying to dob the messenger in; I am just trying to get clarification of what the restrictions might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf4da924473d4a09b531bae937acdd11\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: It is certainly my understanding that water only is allowed in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228594f97e7b294630a64e0b8232e73ca6\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that. I had better leave, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ddb0ad278564e37a165993c82b1dc50\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for the opportunity to speak on Part 2 of the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill. I want to commend to the Committee the sensible amendment proposed by Judith Collins, the member for Clevedon, who is a very good and very perceptive member. She realises that it is very, very important to ensure from time to time that we are not too restrictive. If her suggestion is not applied, New Zealand could be put in a situation of signing up to any other international obligation. The Government has a great opportunity to realise that her amendment is common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAs for United Future, which is pivotal in determining whether that constructive suggestion does indeed amend the bill, the Hon Ken Shirley said that this is where United Future can really show its true colours as to whether it is a party of common sense that exercises practical, good judgment. I can see Paul Adams over there, nodding away. Here is an invitation to United Future to do exactly that and support Judith Collins\u2019 very sensible amendment, which would delete new paragraph (e) of section 2(1), in clause 6(1): \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand and that provides for the restriction on,\u201D etc. Clearly, it is quite inappropriate for New Zealand to be put in a position in which suddenly, out of left field, there comes a binding international obligation that is inappropriate for New Zealand. We would then have to undo this sort of legislation. The point is that the public should realise that United Future is facing a test to show whether it is true to its record of being a common-sense party. I hope its members will take up the suggestion by the National member for Clevedon, Judith Collins, that paragraph (e) be deleted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other really important amendment is obviously that of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith relating to new section 3A, in clause 9. It amends it by inserting after the words \u201Cinternational obligation\u201D the words \u201Cspecified in section 2(1)\u201D. That would indeed confine the requirements to the conventions that all of us understand are relevant to this bill: the Stockholm convention, the Basel convention, the Waigani convention, and the Rotterdam convention. They are both highly important and eminently sensible amendments that would make this legislation appropriately tight for the purposes it serves for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the original Act that is being amended, the Import Control Act 1988, is of course being changed under this legislation. After the commencement of this measure, the principal act will be called the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Act 1988. That is sensible and appropriate because it is indeed inappropriate for it to be called just the Import Control Act. Even more sensible, if we are going to follow that line, would be if the Government on this occasion took note of the sensible and constructive suggestion made by National. Here is an opportunity to make this much more lasting and relevant legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00226c883b49a50f4ebca1f30d2310dc663b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c883b49a50f4ebca1f30d2310dc663b\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022398929117d4b49c7ad34d81103903629\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022398929117d4b49c7ad34d81103903629\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National): \u003C/span\u003EIt is frustrating for members on this side of the Chamber, because I thought we had shown a lot of consideration and goodwill, and the amendments that we have proposed have been consistent. I saw that we even got a lovely smile from the Minister in the chair, the Hon John Tamihere, which actually was quite disturbing because I think this is a very serious issue, and the way he smiled at it means he is not taking it seriously. Maybe I can make a serious plea to him and take him slowly through our argument again to see whether we can convince him. I think if the Minister has ambitions to be the leader of the Labour Party, he has to show a lot more willingness to listen to the public and to the Opposition parties, because this is a very important issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI myself have put an amendment to the title to clarify the scope of this legislation. I have proposed that instead of just calling this legislation the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, we actually change it to the \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions on Hazardous Substances) Amendment Bill\u201D. If that amendment had been accepted\u2014and I was disappointed that United Future would not take an independent stand on this\u2014then at least the members on this side of the House could have felt slightly comforted, and would not be voting against particular provisions in paragraph (e) of section 2(1)\u2014in clause 6(1)\u2014and in clause 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI plead for the Minister to accept the sensible amendment to new section 3A, in clause 9, put by my learned colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. When we read new section 3A(1) we see it states: \u201CThe Governor-General, if satisfied that it is necessary to give effect to an international obligation,\u201D. It does not even mention the international obligation that, we are told in the explanatory note, by Order in Council can prohibit the exportation from New Zealand of specified goods, or goods of a specified class or classes. I think Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u2019s amendments make so much sense. All the Minister had to do was say yes to four little words: \u201Cspecified in section 2(1)\u201D. It is a very, very crucial but simple amendment that would not delay the passage of this legislation, yet would clarify its purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI would like to think the Minister wanted to pass good legislation. Far too many times we have seen legislation being rushed through this Parliament, and before there has even been time to implement it properly the officials have come back to request amendments to it. To avoid this type of problem, the Minister just needs to have a quiet word with the officials. We can assure him that the officials would say that if the Opposition cooperated, making that change would not lead to a delay in the passage of this legislation. It makes much more sense to accept the amendment proposed by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith. All that the amendment says is that clause 9 should not go against the intention of the principal Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWhy is the Labour Government so suspicious of the Opposition parties? We have already indicated clearly, at the outset, that we are going to support this legislation. I think these pleas are falling on deaf ears. I will make a promise in the House, like I did with the Fair Trading Amendment Bill (No 3): we support the legislation, but it could have been made much better, so in 2005, when National comes back to this House as the Government, we will definitely make these amendments. I am just trying to reassure the public and people who have concerns over this legislation that we may have to accept it for the time being, but we assure them that we will fix it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224750569cc91e45f9ba1f85ff4f97996f\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madame Chairperson. You will recall that some 10 minutes back I raised the issue about whether we could drink a hot mug of Milo, which is available and served in the lobbies. You were not sure, but you indicated that you thought not. The messenger has just been kind enough to deliver to me a copy of the sheet that the messengers take as their instructions, and it is from Mr Speaker, dated 30 November 2002. Item 30 lists articles not permitted in the Chamber. It states that the following articles may not be taken into the Chamber or galleries unless approved by the Speaker, and it lists bags, including briefcases; satchels; haversacks; umbrellas; cameras; etc. But item 5\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdeea4c0817546e49c7eac5f969be1e9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to get to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a6adda0684444a2b7db6b9a272c5ebb\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I will be as terse as I can. Item 5 refers to food or drink. I put to you that water is a drink. We certainly do not bring our lunch in here, and we would not bring a bottle of Coke, but I would like clarification of whether a hot mug of coffee is acceptable. For the smaller parties in particular\u2014I do this on behalf of the smaller parties\u2014there is a problem when their members are alone in the House and need a hot drink, but also need to follow the debate, as they can have a hot drink out in the lobby only. I would like a ruling on that matter. Perhaps over the lunch break you could consider it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220218ff4079ce45719713af8e24d01b50\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: This is a new point, and it is also something for you to consider over the lunch break. It might be interesting if members were to see how the Speaker felt about his interpretation with regard to practising hobby interests in the Chamber. You will recall that some time ago the Speaker ruled that knitting was permitted and, indeed, cleaning a carburettor on a desk would also be permitted. Perhaps the member is a hobby coffee drinker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238c572a2569d4927b4aca866604d7061\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows very well that there has been a ruling on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd8fd2fb25734e7f9af4e89e7e05fcac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd8fd2fb25734e7f9af4e89e7e05fcac\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a976682d7844b99be6ee7f49bb5f861\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The closure is not accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00225dd3d1411b1942c58814f41587b253b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dd3d1411b1942c58814f41587b253b7\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e37528ded4894f2692ba77dd642cccf0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e37528ded4894f2692ba77dd642cccf0\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to turn directly to the amendment proposed by my colleague Ms Judith Collins, because, as I signalled at the outset of the debate on Part 2, it is a very important amendment, and one that I would like the Government to seriously consider. It is basically an issue of constitutionalism. If one looks at clause 6, one will see that paragraphs (a) through to (d) refer to specific conventions, and the intent of the legislation is to enact specific conventions. For instance, there is the Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure for Certain Hazardous Chemicals and Pesticides in International Trade, the Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, the Convention on the Control of Transboundary Movements of Hazardous Wastes and their Disposal, and the Convention to Ban the Importation into Forum Island Countries of Hazardous and Radioactive Wastes and to Control the Transboundary Movement and Management of Hazardous Wastes within the South Pacific Region. All of that is reasonable and the proper way of doing it. The legislation should name the particular conventions that our Government has adhered to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EHowever, the Government has also added paragraph (e), which refers to \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand\u201D relating to hazardous wastes. The difficulty is this: Parliament implements by statute the domestic enforcement of international conventions, and those conventions should be known to parliamentarians. That is the constitutional process that is being followed, and it is well understood. It is surely wrong to give a general power to the executive to add in and sign other conventions, without giving notice to Parliament. I ask the Minister and his officials to reflect on that issue, because I cannot believe it is the intention of a Government to bind the country through domestic legislation\u2014and that is the key point\u2014to conventions that are signed up to without first referring them to Parliament for re-enactment . \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI will put it this way: think of the process of entering into international law conventions. The Government sends its officials to an international convention and we sign the convention\u2014that is the normal process that occurs, and that is an executive role. It is not always necessary, but where there are domestic considerations, the Government then puts to Parliament that the convention should be enacted into our domestic legislation, and that normally requires a specific statute. This statute today is precisely that, in that it is implementing the four conventions that I referred to. The proper constitutional process is therefore that as each convention comes up, a statute is created for each of them\u2014and perhaps for a group of them\u2014to implement that convention. To give a general power that enables the executive to just put any convention to do with hazardous wastes into law without coming back to Parliament is surely wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis Parliament is the supreme law-making authority. It is wrong for the Government to use its majority to negate the power of Parliament to transfer our fundamental obligation, which is the determination of our domestic law, to the executive. That is effectively what will happen. To draw a proper analogy to demonstrate the seriousness of this matter, it is the equivalent of ruling by decree: the Government would be signing conventions that would say that those conventions will hereafter be the law of the land, because some statute\u2014possibly passed decades ago\u2014provided that path. That cannot be the right approach to constitutional provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI will make one final point. The Opposition is supporting this legislation. We are asking the Government to recognise the serious intent that my colleague has drawn to the Committee\u2019s attention and to support the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002295be93b680794181840ccf1823e1ea54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295be93b680794181840ccf1823e1ea54\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae4a1b4953f744518563b1a492eec70f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae4a1b4953f744518563b1a492eec70f\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I too am interested in clause 6, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, and I know my colleague from Auckland, Judith Collins, put in an amendment to that clause. I would love to have a copy of that amendment before me, but I have just loaned it to a colleague. The amendment seeks to delete paragraph (e) of clause 6(1). It is a one-sentence amendment, but I believe it is of huge significance to this Parliament. Clause 6(1) seeks to amend section 2(1) of the principal Act \u201Cby inserting, in their appropriate alphabetical order, the following definitions\u201D relating to \u201Cinternational obligation\u201D. The obligation that this Labour Government wants us to sign up to is in paragraph (e), and states that: \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand and that provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMembers opposite will know that we are supporting this bill. We certainly want a prohibition on the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes or other substances that pose a risk to human health\u2014we have no argument with that. However, we say let us see the mischief first, because paragraph (e) refers to \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand \u2026\u201D. In other words, a treaty will be signed overseas\u2014presumably by a Minister on the advice of officials\u2014and, because of this legislation, it will automatically become binding on New Zealand through the statutory process. It will go straight through the executive, but it will not pass through Parliament, at all. No one in this Parliament will get to look at it\u2014members may not even be aware of it, unless they are particularly vigilant, and dig around to find what Ministers are doing when they traipse overseas to attend various conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAny protocol that is signed up to regarding the restriction of such chemicals and organisms could provide an opportunity for a non-tariff trade barrier, which would mean other nations trading with New Zealand putting up barriers to us exporting our products and making a dollar overseas. Such conventions could be used, and if this particular subsection passes, they would not undergo any scrutiny in this Parliament. There might be essential chemicals that pose a health risk to people to a greater or lesser degree, but it might be a lesser degree, and it might be a far greater mischief if the chemical were not used and was not present in export products. One could quite easily argue that certain chemicals are used to increase the life of a product. The damage they do in terms of health risk might be very minimal, and if such chemicals were not used at all, the health risk could be quite excessive. Yet, with this measure, if someone overseas did a deal and signed certain chemicals off in a heated moment\u2014and mercury is one such chemical\u2014this Parliament would not get to scrutinise that action, and I am concerned about that. Not only could a protocol be passed automatically before concerned members of Parliament got to see what had been signed up to, but also we could not unwind it very easily. We cannot unwind those obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E I would hope the Ministers overseas, traipsing about the world, signing up to this, that, and the other thing, as this Labour Government has done, would take it very, very seriously; that signing up to something is one thing, but passing it through legislation, statutory requirements, is quite another. To unwind on those obligations is quite a task. To have it automatically passed through this Parliament via this clause is of great concern. Process is very, very important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba3ab087c3ba4c66bcb6f12578904813\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba3ab087c3ba4c66bcb6f12578904813\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e4b00f9c0c4a430e8d3ec42d2e9b1dab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000343\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Judith Collins to clause 6 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000344\u0022\u003Eto amend subclause (1) by omitting paragraph (e) from the definition of international obligation.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dfe6576d79ff4d15882ffab462c0de52\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000345\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith to clause 9 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000346\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 3A(1) by inserting, after the words \u201Cinternational obligation\u201D, the words \u201Cspecified in section 2(1)\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226353676c5ede4737aca63c46da7bd410\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000347\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000348\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f3211d0c6be4ebbaa939830fd731b50\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms(Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbb7ca60a2114cd68336b3b30a5da0de\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00226d6b7ac5070a4b8497a17a481f31d8f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d6b7ac5070a4b8497a17a481f31d8f7\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I raised a point of order prior to the lunch break, when you were not in the Chair\u2014we had another presiding officer at that time. The situation was that I had brought my mug of hot Milo into the Chamber and one of the messengers had tried to wrestle it from me and take it out. I sought clarification from the then presiding officer whether that was permitted, and she said that it was not. I then was issued with a statement from Speaker Jonathan Hunt, dated 30 November 2002, stating articles that are not permitted. It mentioned bags, umbrellas, and briefcases, and it said, in item 5, \u201Cfood or drink\u201D. Of course, we have water in here\u2014we are allowed to drink water. We are not allowed to bring our lunch or eat a pie, and I understand that is a reasonable provision. I notice that a lot of the Government members regularly chew lollies. That, of course, would come within the definition of food that should be banned, but we have a convention that that is permitted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe point was that as a member of a minor party or a smaller party I am holding the fort, as it were, today. I needed a hot drink, but I cannot be here, following and participating in the debate, and also having my hot drink. We are allowed to have water. What is the difference between a glass of water and a mug of Milo? I refer to Speaker\u2019s ruling 14/1. This is a ruling brought down by Mr Braybrooke as Chairperson, in 1997. It states: \u201CEating or drinking a cup of tea is not permitted in the Chamber.\u201D I do not know how we can eat a cup of tea, but that is what our ruling says. It does not ban the drinking of Milo in the Chamber. It only mentions eating or drinking a cup of tea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThis is an important matter. We are under urgency. Members are under a lot of strain, we are missing meals, and we have to have our sustenance. I invited the former presiding officer in the Chair to consider it over the lunch break and come back with a ruling. I notice we have now had a change in presiding officer. I am wondering whether she did discuss it with you. I would certainly like a ruling on whether a mug of Milo is permitted. If it is not, could I put my Milo in a glass?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7608a5547c54a7387e1ed6bf850887a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Interjections are to be terse and to the point\u2014Standing Order 84(3). I think the member has made his point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eaa155c63f34299ad8c0f0b1f388cca\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, there are a number of issues. One is the temperature. We can have a cold glass of water, but we cannot have a hot mug of tea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022f9cc469824a50a301e6f88cee41c0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ceb29e6850884e55bf83ed2bed710966\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: We do not know about cocoa or Milo. If it is based on temperature, what is the temperature? Hot or cold?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002287eb7af55bfe43c0ab908a26cf79ac1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287eb7af55bfe43c0ab908a26cf79ac1a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is my practice to have a hot glass of water. I have been having a hot glass of water and steam comes off it. Being an asthmatic, one finds that hot water going through one\u2019s system is a good way of fending it off. I have been doing this for some time. There is that point. Also, can one put Lemsip in the hot water? Does that take it out of the category of water? Would I not be able to drink water if it had Lemsip in it? That brings in the category of tea. What is the difference between hot water with Lemsip and hot water with tea in it? We need a very considered ruling on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a0597f853c2448b8beb7946d8e510a6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard sufficient. I also listened to the episode prior to lunch. Like the Hon Ken Shirley, I wish to refer to Speaker\u2019s ruling 14/1, made by Mr Geoff Braybrooke. It provides that eating or drinking a cup of tea is not permitted in the Chamber. I consider that restriction extends to all beverages other than the water provided in the Chamber. I regard water as a speaker\u2019s aid. If members wish to eat or drink, there are areas close to the Chamber, such as the lobbies or the cafeteria, where they may do so. I believe that the ruling is aimed at ensuring that the Chamber does not become some sort of restaurant, room, or cafeteria. Members can go elsewhere, if they so wish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00224b096ecd7fca42b38b25a246d0ed7ef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224b096ecd7fca42b38b25a246d0ed7ef0\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220faf1c2518944429a7346309006d4fd8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It had better be different. I have made my ruling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226faf7a2310ce4e9eb74c35bad2625219\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It is just a point of clarification on your ruling, which I certainly do appreciate your making. A valid point was made by Dail Jones regarding temperature\u2014whether water of any temperature can be consumed by a member\u2014and also whether additives can be placed in the water. If you could clarify that for us it would be helpful, because someone such as Dail Jones, who is an asthmatic, from time to time requires not only water but additives to help him. It would be useful to seek your aid in clarifying that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c88e41062dc4aa18216868f42bc6032\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made a good point. The Chamber is a place for the serious conduct of the business of this House. The principle governing activities in the Chamber is whether they disrupt, or have the potential to disrupt, that business, or demean the House in some way. After all, this is Parliament, a debating chamber, and a place where serious business is conducted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00226f2db66b84fb4becbc63f8a839843378\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f2db66b84fb4becbc63f8a839843378\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e52691e14ad4b1f8afd41ccfc3256bb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It had better be something different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d68c1016a234d6b9c58ef5a9e281527\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It certainly is different. I appreciate that. You have given us a rule, although it is not particularly clear, on the beverage and water issue. I now seek clarification with regard to the food aspect, in particular as it relates to lozenges, Strepsils, Minties, and various other lollies. I notice that many of the Labour front-benchers chew their cud regularly. That would also be in breach of that Speaker\u2019s ruling. Having dealt with beverages, we now need to address the food side of the equation. The situation could arise where a member wants to dissolve an aspirin in his or her water, which would take us back to the former argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228922988b90a94bd48a3af3e4f29345c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member; he has made his point. I do not want to take points ad nauseum. I am just going to say this. I would not take exception to a member discreetly sucking a peppermint or a throat lozenge, but it should go no further than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e6da547bef144d9af41f588c208f2e5\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022266e0e4dc34c45b09ce11eb8f7eecf65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022266e0e4dc34c45b09ce11eb8f7eecf65\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Undoubtedly, over the course of the last hour or two, while we have debated the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, there has been concern as to the clarity of the title and whether, indeed, it reflects appropriately the meaning and the content of that bill. Once again, we have a title that refers to the Stockholm convention, and that is quite proper. However, it does not say anything about persistent organic pollutants. In the mind of the public, persistent organic pollutants could be a whole variety of things, whereas in this bill they are confined to a variety of chemicals that each has the characteristic of being environmentally persistent, toxic, bioaccumulative, and able to be transported by movement or air, water, and migratory species to places far from its original point of release. They all have somewhat complicated chemical names associated with them. In speaking to this title and trying to make it have some meaning to the average New Zealander out there wondering what this debate is about, I propose that it would be relevant and appropriate for the title to make some mention that this bill refers to persistent organic pollutants. We could add the words \u201CRelating to Persistent Organic Pollutants\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI have been troubled by the related bill, the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, which is inextricably related to this bill. The Stockholm convention is very much part of this bill, but so, too, are the Basel convention, the Waigani convention, and one other convention that is important. It was made very clear in the previous debate that it would be appropriate to add to the title of the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, after \u201CRestrictions\u201D, the words \u201Con Hazardous Substances\u201D. But we still have the difficulty that if we confine this title purely to the Stockholm convention, which is related to the other conventions; there is still no hint of this bill being applied to persistent organic pollutants, which is the whole point of it. New Zealand has used them widely in the past in the agricultural sector. There is great concern about the danger of residues to people building their houses or playing in fields close to places where persistent organic pollutants have been used in the past. But this bill\u2019s title does not indicate that the Stockholm convention is all about persistent organic pollutants. That is somewhat unsatisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair could perhaps take a call later on to explain to us why, both in the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill and in this bill, no mention is made that it actually concerns persistent organic pollutants. Undoubtedly, they are hugely important. The Stockholm convention has wide international support, and it is right and proper that this Parliament becomes a signatory to it. The National Party is happy to support that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022c15da632a94c4919aa4850418467bea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c15da632a94c4919aa4850418467bea5\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In assessing the appropriateness of the title of this bill we really have to examine what the bill does, to see whether the title in any way reflects what it does. The heart of this bill is contained in clause 5. What the bill actually does is prohibit the import, manufacture, or use of persistent organic pollutants. If members look at the new provisions that the select committee inserted into clause 5, they will see that new section 25AB also addresses the issue of storage of persistent organic pollutants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe title clause states: \u201CThis Act is the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Act 2002.\u201D Where is the link? Those of us who have studied this bill know that there is a link, because we know what the Stockholm convention is all about. But the problem is that people who are not familiar with this law, who have not been at the select committee, for example, will not know that. I was reasonably involved in international affairs for this country. I must say that I could not have told members what the Stockholm convention was all about prior to my becoming involved with this piece of legislation. So we have a problem. How is someone who uses an index of titles of bills to find New Zealand\u2019s legislation surrounding the use of persistent organic pollutants? For people to find this piece of legislation, they would have to know about the Stockholm convention. That is not reasonable. It is poor drafting, again. The title should immediately lead someone to know what the bill is about. If members go to the heart of the bill, they will see quite clearly that it is about persistent organic pollutants. The title should state that. It should make clear what it is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is why I will move that clause 1 be amended by omitting the words \u201C(Stockholm Convention)\u201D in the title, and substituting the words \u201C(Persistent Organic Pollutants)\u201D. Anyone looking for New Zealand law on persistent organic pollutants would then know immediately that this is the legislation that tells people what they can and cannot do in respect of those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is quite important. A scientist may want to know whether a certain substance can be used in a research project in New Zealand. The scientist may not know anything about the Stockholm convention, but may be aware that the substance he or she is dealing with is a persistent organic pollutant. A scientist who seeks to find out what the law says about it\u2014and it is a bit confusing; from memory, it is covered by clause 8, but we will come to that later on\u2014to find out whether he or she can do research involving a substance, and who does not know that those matters are covered by the Stockholm convention, will not know that this is the legislation he or she should be looking at. That is why the title is inadequate. It is inappropriate, and it would be so simple to fix it. What is wrong with spelling out what the bill does?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThere is another reason for doing that. If the bill implemented in toto the Stockholm convention, maybe there would be a better argument for this title, but it does not. I hope members realise that the bill does not implement the Stockholm convention in toto. I think article 5 in annex C is not implemented by this legislation, at all. With regard to other aspects of the Stockholm convention, the Committee should note that the bill covers only matters of importation, use, and storage of persistent organic pollutants. It does not cover issues of export of such pollutants, yet the Stockholm convention applies in respect of all aspects of those pollutants, including the export of them. Of course, that issue is handled in separate legislation, which we have spent some hours discussing today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo there are two problems. One is that someone looking in future for New Zealand\u2019s law on persistent organic pollutants will not be led to this legislation by its name, because he or she will not necessarily know that that is what the Stockholm convention is about. That is the first problem. The second problem is that the bill does not implement the Stockholm convention in its entirety. It gives effect to only certain parts of it. That is why National argues that the title is not appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00224f3b675417b84774b3e120b3b5544fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f3b675417b84774b3e120b3b5544fe3\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to continue to elaborate on the concerns Dr Smith put to the Committee. I look forward to the Hon Dr Smith tabling his amendment, and I am glad that he has done that. As a trade Minister involved in all sorts of issues to do with conventions overseas and signing treaties, he has a better understanding than most. I am happy to say\u2014he cannot say this himself\u2014that he has a better understanding than most of what it is to sign up to a convention, and the significance of it. We look at the title of this bill, the \u201CHazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u201D, and we know that Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith and other senior members here, and a very few members of the public\u2014perhaps even the Minister in the chair\u2014will know what the Stockholm convention is. However, I have to concede that many members in this House do not know what the Stockholm convention is, or what it covers. The Stockholm convention is in the title, so I would like to make it clear what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ENew Zealand signed that very convention on 23 May 2001. It knew what it was signing and did that with its eyes open. The convention seeks to protect human health and the environment\u2014not just the environment in New Zealand, but the world environment, and particularly the environments of countries that signed up to the convention. That is done, firstly, by banning the production, use, and trade of certain persistent organic pollutants. It does that by minimising the emissions of 10 highly dangerous substances\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f473fa84eed422e865a1c67446b1a34\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c838621c56724f2aa390006f5824735b\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about the title. The Stockholm convention is in the title. The convention minimises the emissions of 10 highly dangerous substances, eight of which are also covered by the Rotterdam convention. Only Dr Lockwood Smith, myself, Judith Collins, member of Parliament from Auckland, and maybe a scattering of others, would know that. The Stockholm convention in the title also refers to protecting health in the environment by taking measures to reduce emissions of two further products\u2014and perhaps the Minister in the chair should tell us what those products are\u2014and by also providing for financial contributions and for the appointment of a designated national authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI want the Minister in the chair, who believes that this bill should be called the \u201CHazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u201D\u2014what a tongue-twister\u2014to tell us very clearly what that refers to. I have given members a brief about the Stockholm convention, but there are holes. It talks about 10 highly dangerous substances. What are they? People who are looking for information on those particular substances will not know that they are particularly related to the Stockholm convention. I would like to know what reducing emissions of two further by-products is, and what are they? I would like the Minister in the chair to take a call to tell us what those are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThese are my concerns. The Stockholm convention being mentioned in the title of the bill does not give any member of Parliament\u2014apart from those, as I say, who have had a long history in this Parliament involved with trade and treaties\u2014any idea of what the bill addresses in particular. We know that it does address persistent organic pollutants, but they are not mentioned in the title. They are mentioned in the background three times, and the interpretation three times. They are mentioned in the definition once. They are mentioned 12 times under the title \u201CContinuation of PCB exemptions\u201D, yet they are not mentioned in the title at all. I put it to the Committee, and I put a high degree of pressure on the Minister to take a call, to explain to us why the words \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D should enlighten people, and \u201CPCBs\u201D not enlighten people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002245750871c2354176945f127bebe2ff26\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245750871c2354176945f127bebe2ff26\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E In addressing the title, I think that the point has been made very clearly; however, I would like to re-emphasise in relation to the title, and ask the Minister in the chair why, indeed, the reference to new organisms is there. It is all about addressing the provisions of the Stockholm convention and allowing us to be able to ratify it. That of course relates specifically to persistent organic pollutants\u2014the \u201CPOPs\u201D, as they are known\u2014and the schedules name those persistent organic pollutants covered by it. But nowhere in the bill\u2014and I have looked at it, and if I am wrong, the Minister should take a call to show me\u2014is there any reference whatsoever or addressing of new organisms. The bill has nothing to do with new organisms. It is about hazardous substances, so why on earth has the \u201Cnew organisms\u201D reference been put in the title? We have other legislation such as the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, but that is no explanation or reason to put it in the title of this stand-alone, separate legislation. It simply does not make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI do not know what Cabinet committees do these days, but I would have thought that that sort of problem would have been picked up there. Perhaps it just takes its leave from officials and does not give it adequate scrutiny. That is why legislation is brought to Parliament. It is so that Opposition members do scrutinise it. There is no reference whatsoever to new organisms, so why on earth put it in the title? It is understandable that a person who picks up the title or reads a reference to the title will expect something to do with new organisms. [Interruption] I will not respond to that member\u2019s interjection. There is no reference to new organisms whatsoever. Indeed, parties are indicating their support for this legislation in an overall sense, that the persistent organic pollutants are a concern\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d4e4976473429f893866655ad01ce4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Keep to the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ba82d2adb94ff78bf7c939bc323a56\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is being addressed, and that is why that aspect does belong in the title, but certainly not the new organisms. It is not too late. We can make a change here. That is why we have the Committee stage. Perhaps the Minister needs to consult the Leader of the House, who I notice is here, and to take his leave from him, because the title is wrong. It is a misnomer. It is very bad to pass into legislation something that carries the wrong name. It can only create confusion. It would be very inappropriate. We will be debating the aspects of this when we get to Parts 1 and 2 and the schedules, but let us start off on the right foot and get the title right. If we cannot get the title right, it will be very difficult as we move on through the latter stages of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI think we can get this debate completed by about 11 or 12 o\u2019clock tonight, if we apply ourselves. Let us get off on the right foot by getting the title right. This title is not appropriate, and, once again, I urge the Minister to take a call. If she cannot explain to us why there should be a reference to new organisms in this bill, which has nothing to do with new organisms, will she please indicate that she is prepared to have it deleted, and adopt the very good amendments that are being proposed by Opposition members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00220b6585d42c5a429f8b11c4aceb7526c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b6585d42c5a429f8b11c4aceb7526c8\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7582a8783e34209a1b8875c12fb7b94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7582a8783e34209a1b8875c12fb7b94\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E Let us start again on this access-to-justice issue. All the points that have been made by members on this side of the Chamber about the title and the very strange things in it\u2014which have very little to do with the bill\u2014deal with this access-to-justice issue. We make laws day after day in Parliament, year after year, and we have to have laws where the title reflects the contents of the bill. Otherwise we would not bother having a title; we would just call them \u201CBill No 2\u201D or \u201CBill No 3\u201D. The purpose of having a title is to let people who are looking for the law, be able to find the jolly thing. With words like \u201CNew Organisms\u201D in this bill, one would think it had something to do with new organisms. But it does not. The honourable member Lockwood Smith, my colleague, has put forward an amendment to omit the words \u201C(Stockholm Convention)\u201D and to substitute the words \u201C(Persistent Organic Pollutants)\u201D. That change would reflect a lot of what this bill is about. But I also have to wonder about what \u201CNew Organisms\u201D is doing in this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI make a plea to get rid of the jargon used in these bills. This is yet another bill that is full of jargon, and the name itself is just jargon. This title includes the words \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D but what do those words mean? Most people looking at that would sit there and say: \u201CHas this got something to do with that new prostitution bill?\u201D; that is exactly what they would be thinking. Then they would say: \u201CWhat\u2019s this about \u2018new organisms and hazardous substances\u2019?\u201D. That would absolutely confirm it in their minds. This bill is not supposed to be about that, yet we have, once again, some sort of jargon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhy do we have to refer to it as the \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D, because that is something that only those in the know are allowed to know about? Yet again it is all about access to justice. We have laws, and I say: \u201CFor goodness\u2019 sake! Make it easy for people to find them, and thereby live by them.\u201D Most people actually do want to go through life living by the laws of the land, and they expect Parliament to take some notice of the names of bills and what is in them. That is why it is great that in our party, and in the Opposition, we read the bills; we look at these issues, and we actually understand them. I would really like to hear from the Minister, because she has always struck me as someone who will listen when we bring up issues; and the Leader of the House is normally quite good at listening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487b6911116a4c6094e26d8d17e87fc6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re good listeners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd01b1dfb66b41a09fdff51ebdaa40ce\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: They are the only two on that side who do listen. So that is quite good. The Minister of Education could listen occasionally, and that might do him some good. When we have bills like this, which are going to be almost impossible for anyone to find, other than a few lawyers who are involved in this area, then it will make it harder and harder for manufacturers, scientists, and people like that who actually do the work in the country and make the money for us\u2014and make the money that pays the taxes that pay the wages of everyone here\u2014to be able to find legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWhy do we have to have such silly titles? This title bears very little relationship to the bill. What sort of drafting is this? I am appalled this issue was not picked up on in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. I am sure the people on the committee did their very best, but at the end of the day it obviously was not good enough. There is a feeling in the Parliament that we are all supportive of the bill and its contents, except for a few amendments. One concern would have to be the title. I really would like to hear from the Minister. I know she wants to tell us which hazardous substances and new organisms are in this bill, and why the words \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D are included, rather than substituting the words \u201CPersistent Organic Pollutants\u201D. That change would make some sense to people who are looking in this particular area. I am sure the Minister would like to tell us about it. I can see she wants to tell us. I would really like to hear from her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00223614c9269fdb4da8aa7177f22b5b9d59\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223614c9269fdb4da8aa7177f22b5b9d59\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022532bedd4a4c641feae75f6e56ac5df75\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next speaker, there is too much conversation going on. Members should not conduct conversations in the Chamber, unless it is necessary to do so; and then so as not to disturb the proceedings. I find it somewhat difficult, at times, to concentrate on the member speaking, when there are so many conversations going on. For those who are wandering around the Chamber, I refer them to Standing Order 82. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0ed677bed9e4c739489d7365790733a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0ed677bed9e4c739489d7365790733a\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Chairman, I would like to join in your general round of condemnation of members who chat idly in the Chamber when issues such as the title to a bill are being discussed. It is not often the case that we are drawn to look at legislation of this importance, nor that we are drawn into a debate touching on the critical importance of a title. In starting any discussion on the issue of a title, one would surely start with the proposition that the title should first be legally accurate, and, secondly, that it be factually appropriate. As other speakers have said, there are real doubts in this regard about this title. I am frankly surprised, with the calibre of the members who were on the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which reported back on the bill, that insufficient or perhaps no time at all, was given to consideration of the title. If one looks at page 7 of the explanatory note to see who those members were\u2014and I instance the Hon Peter Dunne and Graham Kelly\u2014one would have thought this would be a consideration at the very forefront of their minds. Instead, it is not the subject of commentary in the bill, and the issue comes before us afresh, or, as lawyers would say, on a de novo basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo how is it that this title fits within those two tests that I have suggested? Is it legally accurate? I would say no. Is it factually appropriate? Clearly, it is not. Other members have made the good and strong point that the full title of the bill is misleading, and that is because it is titled Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. And one looks in vain, I suggest, in the content of the bill to find any reference at all to new organisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESure there are preliminary provisions. Sure there are amendments to the principal Act made by Part 2. Sure there are two schedules. But not in any of that material is there reference to new organisms. That is really the first point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe second point I would like to make is the reference to the Stockholm convention. As a starting point, there have been a number of conventions in Stockholm in the last few years, and they have ranged across considerable activity in that country. There have been meetings convened and called, for a wide variety of purposes, which have a convention quality. In looking at the use of the phrase \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D in this case, I would have thought that the Government would go to the trouble to identify which particular convention in Stockholm had been singled out for reference in this bill. That is not done in the heading, and instead one needs to grope\u2014I suggest that that is the appropriate word\u2014through the legislation to Part 2 to see that \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D is given a starkly narrowed meaning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E It has been defined there as meaning the Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, done at Stockholm on 23 May 2001, and the annexes to the convention\u2014a copy of the English text of which is set out in schedule 1AA. So the drafters have gone to some trouble, it seems, to identify in this particular paragraph\u2014albeit not in the title of the bill\u2014the convention that is to be accorded recognition in the context of the legislation. What this bill does, and what should be reflected in the title, should be drawn from clause 3. It is apparent, reading clause 3, that the purpose of the Act is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. Why does the title not say that? This is simply a piece of domestic legislation that incorporates a foreign treaty instrument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u002226655923cd654698922201472a2a7a49\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226655923cd654698922201472a2a7a49\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022730527518a754b199940c86c4653f41a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000404\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000405\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201C(Stockholm Convention)\u201D and substitute the words \u201C(Persistent Organic Pollutants)\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002282d6b9b9eb604202bbbfe24e6c546265\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228af16ff926d54918beb03a05f8c07d40\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb4f975234d64e109eac789ab504b244\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u00227a8b35f3f5b44623adc7685cf3641ae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a8b35f3f5b44623adc7685cf3641ae0\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E It is extraordinary that we are in our third day of urgency\u2014technically, it is 1 July in this bizarre place in which we work\u2014giving importance to passing legislation that will enable New Zealand to comply with a convention that was signed more than 2 years ago. What sort of Mickey Mouse Parliament are we running that, under urgency, we are being asked to advance legislation that Parliament did not see for more than 20 months after the convention to which it relates was signed by the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e25ca750c7d4d5092315470ccfd25ee\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s bizarre.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275c6cf2919c341e08a851a259ae9720b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It is bizarre. If we had a matter of some urgent environmental need that required Parliament to be in urgency, then there might be some justification. [Interruption] Mr Larry Baldock tells me to sit down. Actually, I take seriously the role of Parliament, and I do not mind Parliament being in urgency when there are urgent issues. But I ask United Future members what is so urgent about passing the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, when that convention was signed more than 2 years ago, and when nobody has ever contacted me, or anybody else I know of in this Parliament, saying that it has got to be passed today? [Interruption] My colleague Paul Hutchison is a very competent member, and he has given some excellent speeches on this bill. But even he would be of the view that one could not possibly justify Parliament pretending that the date is 1 July and being in urgency to pass legislation of this sort. It is indeed a joke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E I want to come to a substantive issue. I feel very strongly about the sovereignty of the New Zealand Parliament and about making sure that when we pass laws New Zealanders have the opportunity to comment on those laws and on what Parliament writes in them. What concerns me in Part 1, as it relates to the convention, is what happens if\u2014and this is a question for the Minister\u2014the rules of the Stockholm convention are changed as they apply to organochlorine pollutants. Will the New Zealand Parliament have the opportunity to revisit any subsequent amendments? That would be perfectly proper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed4a11a011143e3bb3c1182ed413ee8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: No, it will not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1bf6673354041d690507b866a9bbbb9\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Lockwood Smith says that it will not. I have respect for international institutions, and I believe we should be part of agreements such as this, but it must finally be the decision of the democratically elected Parliament of New Zealand to make the laws of the land. If the rules of the Stockholm convention are subsequently changed\u2014if there are subsequent amendments\u2014then those amendments should come back to this Parliament. It worries me that in Part 1 we are effectively giving carte blanche to an international institution that is not democratically elected the opportunity to affect the rights of people who should have a chance to have a say. It worries me that we are to pass legislation that allows someone else to make decisions for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ESo while I am in favour and supportive of the Stockholm convention as it currently sits, I do not believe that the New Zealand Parliament is creating good law by saying that whatever is decided at the Stockholm convention in future automatically becomes part of New Zealand law. I do not think that is good law. We must come back to the people of New Zealand and say that, no, we want to make that the law of the land; we will not simply ride off with somebody else and say that, effectively, we will abrogate our job as the Parliament of New Zealand to make the law of the land. So I would like the Minister in the chair, Marian Hobbs, to answer the question, specifically in respect of clause 3, about whether under this bill, if there are subsequent amendments to the Stockholm convention, we are automatically bound by them. Or will the Government of the day come back to the New Zealand Parliament, put that bill through a proper select committee and public process, and give New Zealanders the opportunity to determine the law of our land?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002238925ff867d64a7d87411133b198a5b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238925ff867d64a7d87411133b198a5b4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to speak to Part 1 of this important bill, which includes the commencement and the purpose clauses. The way that the Labour Government has handled both those issues has troubled me considerably with regard to this very important bill. Firstly, we should go to clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, which obviously states that the Act comes into force on a day to be appointed by the Governor-General. As the Hon Dr Nick Smith has pointed out, the Stockholm convention was signed 2 years ago. But perhaps even more relevant is the fact that this bill was put on the Order Paper on 21 May 2002.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E Here we are in urgency, dealing with a bill that has languished, because of this dilatory Labour Government, unnecessarily for a great deal of time. We have a Minister in the chair, the Hon Marian Hobbs, who says that she is interested in environmental concerns, yet she has been extraordinarily dilatory when it comes to progressing New Zealand\u2019s involvement with the Stockholm convention, a convention which does enjoy an almost unparalleled level of support amongst United Nations countries. So here we are, with a dilatory Labour Government and a lackadaisical Minister who is really just cruising along. I must say that in the earlier part of this debate the Hon Peter Dunne from the United Future party was concerned that I might have been critical of him for not progressing this bill. That is not the case, at all. Mr Dunne is a highly competent chair of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. Once he finally got the bill in February, he made sure that it was progressed expeditiously. It is undoubtedly the Government, a Government that purports to be interested in the environment, that has unfortunately delayed this bill\u2019s passage, and finally out of sheer convenience has suddenly, after a knee-jerk reaction\u2014and we cannot understand why\u2014decided to bring it through under urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut more important than that is the purpose of the bill. Again I ask, as did the Hon Dr Nick Smith, whether the chance is available for New Zealanders to have a say if the Stockholm convention is changed. After all, we are a sovereign nation. Surely, as the Parliament of a sovereign nation it is absolutely important that where international conventions that we are signatory to are passed through our Parliament and there are changes to the parent convention, we in this country are able to have a say in those situations if the changes are significant to us\u2014and when a convention is to do with importing and exporting, that can be profoundly significant to us. I hope that the Minister, who has shown a fair amount of dilatoriness in terms of bringing this important bill to the Committee, will take a call and assure us that that will be possible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe purpose of this bill is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. I believe that my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith will move an important amendment\u2014and I will not go on to say very much about it\u2014to insert after the word \u201Cwith\u201D the words \u201Ccertain requirements of\u201D, because the purpose here is inflexible. It means, in many respects, that we would have to abide by the whole Stockholm convention, whether or not it applied to New Zealand. I hope the Minister will take notice of that important amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002250201e9885464ca1b5f985af92bf8325\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250201e9885464ca1b5f985af92bf8325\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I want to briefly answer the questions that have been raised about the possibility that the Stockholm convention could be amended after an internal process, with all the international experts involved, by adding a new persistent organic pollutant to the list. Under clause 13 of the bill\u2014and not under Part 1, which we are debating now\u2014it actually states that we would add that pollutant to the list of persistent organic pollutants as specified in the Stockholm convention, and add it into the text of the Stockholm convention set out in the schedule of the bill by Order in Council. I tell members that whenever we are doing anything as serious as an Order in Council\u2014and I make this absolute commitment\u2014we will be out there consulting with the chemical industry, which up to this time absolutely supports, both internationally and inside New Zealand, the number of pollutants that are listed here. We will work with that industry, internationally and in New Zealand, if we were ever to consider ourselves in line with an amended Stockholm convention, should that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00223579654762164500836072cebe134913\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223579654762164500836072cebe134913\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I do not know how naive that Minister, the Hon Marian Hobbs, actually thinks we are. She is trying to sort of mollycoddle us and say we should not worry, because if ever at some subsequent stage when she is still the Minister\u2014she has only a couple of years to run, but be that as it may\u2014she will, by Order in Council, engage in consultation with everyone and everything will be done right. Well, let us look what has already happened under this urgency motion. We can see the Government has rammed through legislation without any consultation, with no calling for submissions, and with no referral of bills to the select committees. So it is a bit rich for the Minister to say we should trust the Government to always consult and follow due process. We know that this Government does not follow due process; it fails to do that at every turn. So I am sorry, but that reply from the Minister was very hollow and very unconvincing, and she will have to do a lot better than that if she is to address the very real concerns that have been raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe irony, again, is that we generally support this legislation. We signed the Stockholm convention 2 years ago, and I understand we have to pass this legislation before we can ratify it. That is what this legislation is all about, but why on earth are we debating it under urgency? This legislation has been ticking away on the slow burner, simmering away, and bouncing along at the bottom of the Order Paper. The Government did not have the presence of mind to bring it up the Order Paper, but has then put it in the urgency motion and tried to ram it through the House under urgency. I put it to members that this bill would have gone through the House a lot easier and a lot less acrimoniously if the Government had put it through the House in normal parliamentary time, and not under urgency. Understandably, the Opposition parties become suspicious when these sorts of issues are put through urgency and bypass the due process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI now turn to the issue of what will occur if the international convention is subsequently amended\u2014and we know that these conventions are always amended. Someone will try to raise the barrier and add a new chemical or substance to it. That will bind us, and there is no safeguard here. The Minister is saying that that will go through under an Order in Council. That does not involve having the scrutiny of Parliament. It abrogates our sovereignty. The danger is that our bureaucrats go off to these UN conventions and committees\u2014and there is one held every week somewhere in the world; it is as though they decide to meet somewhere in the spring. Those committees meet all over the world, at huge cost. The bureaucrats and non-governmental organisations that have no mandate and no accountability go off to them, and play a huge influence in these environmental conventions. Countries sign up to them, and that abrogates their sovereignty because if there are changes, then we will have to be bound by them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe bill is quite helpful with regard to this issue, because it actually has the convention attached to it. If members look at article 21 of the convention in Schedule 1AA, they will see it covers the situation of amendments to the convention. It states: \u201CAmendments to this Convention shall be adopted at a meeting of the Conference of the Parties. The text of any proposed amendment shall be communicated to the Parties by the Secretariat at least six months before the meeting at which it is proposed for adoption.\u201D So in other words, all the unelected, unaccountable non-governmental groups that control the processes in terms of such UN conventions can, through the back door, impose controls and restrictions on New Zealand law. I say to the Minister, Marian Hobbs, that that is bad. Her explanation, when she leapt to her feet previously, failed to satisfy us because it did not address the issue. The mere fact that she says she will consult before an Order in Council is issued is very hollow words. We want some sort of assurance that it will be brought back to Parliament and referred back to the select committee, so that submissions can be called for and the due process followed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe know that substances like dieldrin and DDT have been very widely used in this country. Dieldrin was the basis of our sheep dips, and DDT was used extensively to fight grass grub, so there are large residues of that. Polychlorinated biphenyls were used in electricity transformers and tipped all over the landscape for many decades. Those have been widely used common substances. Fortunately we do not use them now, and that is good. However, we do need to be assured that if new substances are added to the list in the convention, adequate consideration will be given to that by Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00227caed4a7112249278e85216b0c2ae5d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227caed4a7112249278e85216b0c2ae5d3\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In Part 1 we are dealing principally with the commencement and purpose of the bill. A number of concerns have been raised in relation to the purpose. The problem arises whereby New Zealand\u2019s domestic law could be changed without either this Parliament or even an Order in Council being involved in that. It is a matter of grave concern to the Opposition. I will be speaking on that point more specifically when we come to Part 2, because I know that the Regulations Review Committee raised with the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee a concern about that. I believe that the way the select committee responded to that issue was inadequate, and I will go into that in some detail when we come to Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut in respect of Part 1, I will just cover a concern I have with the purpose laid out in clause 3, which reads: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants.\u201D I say this bill does not provide for that. That purpose is wrong. This bill, which will become an Act, does not enable New Zealand to comply with all the requirements of the Stockholm convention. In fact, it is very clear that Part V of annex C, which is part of the Stockholm convention, will not be implemented in New Zealand. It is an active decision of the Government not to implement Part V of annex C. So there is one part of the convention that is not being implemented in this bill. What is more, this bill covers only certain issues or certain requirements of the Stockholm convention. It does cover matters concerning the importation of persistent organic pollutants, their manufacture, their use, and their storage, but it does not cover matters relating to their export. That is covered in different law\u2014in a different Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ESo I submit that the purpose stated in the bill is incorrect, because this bill does not enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm convention. That is factually wrong. It does not enable New Zealand to implement Part V of annex C, and it does not cover issues that are required by the Stockholm convention in respect of the export of persistent organic pollutants. That is why I have proposed and will be moving an amendment to add to clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, following the word \u201Cwith\u201D, the words \u201Ccertain requirements of\u201D. If my amendment is incorporated, the purpose clause would read: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to comply with certain requirements of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants.\u201D That is a correct statement, and a correct and truthful purpose. It is honest, whereas the provision in this bill is not honest. The bill simply does not enable us to comply with the Stockholm convention, but only with certain requirements\u2014or certain parts\u2014of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIf the Minister does not like my words, I say that all I am getting at is that this bill does not enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. It is factually wrong for the purpose clause to make that claim. What we should indicate is that the bill will enable us to comply with some aspects of the convention, some requirements of it, or certain aspects of it. I am easy about the words that should be used, but I believe that clause 3 should be changed in order to state the purpose of this bill correctly. The way that it is currently worded is simply not correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is my main submission in respect of Part 1. I have already pointed out that I have a major concern about how the purpose is carried out in this bill, and I will turn to that when we come to Part 2. I believe that the way the purpose is being given effect to in this legislation is flawed. I think it is faulty. It leaves New Zealand\u2019s domestic law in the hands of the people who are involved in deciding changes to the Stockholm convention. From the way that this bill is worded, as I read it not even the Government of New Zealand could stop changes to the convention from becoming part of New Zealand\u2019s domestic law. I think the way that the purpose is being given effect to is a serious issue, but my first concern is that the purpose statement itself is simply not correct, and should be amended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002296cd6bf057e343c197a16930e0fa84fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296cd6bf057e343c197a16930e0fa84fb\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002293b40238f579413183f4f99170a42672\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b40238f579413183f4f99170a42672\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to carry on from the comments and the very, very good contributions from this side of the Chamber. [Interruption] I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The barrage from that side of the Chamber is extremely distracting when I am trying to speak on this important issue. I wonder whether you could make a ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022003081c3d68d4936a6a618bc6d512b3a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Strictly speaking, members can be heard without interruption, but, of course, the convention has been somewhat relaxed in order to elicit questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a37f021b90e478f80dd968a8319afb5\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: This bill, which is about making the Stockholm convention part of New Zealand\u2019s law, does raise some very serious issues, and one of the reasons it raises serious issues is the issue of the sovereignty of New Zealand. When New Zealand signs up to international conventions it almost invariably gives up part of its sovereignty. It is a price that we are often willing to pay as a country, but the country needs to know about it. That is one of the very real concerns that we on this side of the Chamber have with the fact that this bill is being rammed through under urgency, without any proper discussion with the people of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOur sovereignty should mean something to us. Part of that is the fact that the laws of this country should be made by Parliament, not by officials going on UN junkets, and other things, to talk about all sorts of exciting things at conventions. If any members want to have a look that\u2014maybe they think that Judith Collins is being just a little harsh\u2014then they should have a look at the Stockholm convention. One clause in the convention talks about the health concerns, particularly in developing countries\u2014and I am sure that all members in the Chamber would agree on that\u2014resulting from local exposure to persistent organic pollutants. The clause mentions, in particular\u2014and this is the part that is very annoying\u2014the impacts upon women and, through them, upon future generations. I say that because men are also important. I think that is the point that is often missed by this Government and its poodle puppy dogs\u2014that men are actually very, very important and it takes more than just a woman to make a baby for future generations. The Stockholm convention starts off by talking about how women\u2019s health is very important. What about the health of men? It is like everywhere\u2014[Interruption] I say to Mr Shirley that this bill is actually all about looking after women\u2019s health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca1569c3e6a249738f16f65bb41e39bd\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the reference for this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c28e187144194d868b48443b61436993\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: It is schedule 1\u2014\u201CAware of the health concerns\u201D. That in particular is worrying to me, because I do not believe that women\u2019s health should be put on such a pedestal, as opposed to men\u2019s health. Men have to live and die like the rest of us, and men must be a valuable part of our society and of our world. When they are not, they will become a very negative part of our society. Why is it always that this Government, which says that women can be fathers, wants to go along with any of those nice, touchy, feel-good sort of conventions? I do not trust that this Government will have proper consultation. I understand the comments from the Minister, and I think that, genuinely, she would like to think that she is right. But, unfortunately, I do not think that we can trust that the Government will have proper consultation and care. Otherwise, why would it be ramming this bill through under urgency, on what is officially 1 July, without any proper consultation with the public? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI wonder; should the public not actually be having a say in this legislation? Should they not know this is happening? Should not 49 percent of the population know that their health does not actually count for much? That is what they should know. This purpose clause states that the bill enables New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. That sounds great\u2014in which case, why was it not stated in the title? Persistent organic pollutants could almost mean a whole range of things that are daily, household things. I have serious worries about why this bill is going through under urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6f7f8f2b6aa4382bcec34caa2fd4aac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6f7f8f2b6aa4382bcec34caa2fd4aac\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to speak on Part 1, \u201CPreliminary provisions\u201D, which contains the commencement clause and purpose clause. I see that clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, states: \u201CThis Act comes into force on a day to be appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council.\u201D We suspect that that will be in the very, very near future. The purpose of this bill is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. Interestingly enough, the Stockholm convention was actually signed on 23 May 2001. This Government thought it significant enough, I assume, to wander over to Stockholm, taking copious numbers of officials with its delegation, and sign that convention. Well, I say: \u201CGood on them.\u201D But why it is that although the Government signed the convention well over 2 years ago, it is only now coming into force? That is what I want to know. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Government thought it significant enough to go all the way over to Stockholm, taking officials with it, experience the thrill of signing the convention, and wander back. But it has taken 2\u00BD years for the Government to bring this bill to the House\u2014and it has done so under urgency. Is that significant or is it not? That is the case I put before the Committee about the commencement date. It is not flash, is it, that the Government would do that. I raise the matter of the significance of the convention. Is it or is it not important? It is certainly not important to this Government if it takes well over 2 years before it even enshrines it in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe purpose clause states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants.\u201D I know that the convention covered persistent organic pollutants when the Government signed it on 23 May 2001; I know that this bill we are looking at now deals with the manufacture, use, and storage of persistent organic pollutants. But I also know that this bill does not deal with the export of any products, organisms, or anything else from this country that may contain persistent organic pollutants. I raise that point with the Committee, because the purpose clause clearly states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants.\u201D But it does not. It might enable New Zealand to comply with some of\u2014we could even put \u2018very few of\u2019\u2014the Stockholm convention provisions, but it certainly does not require or mean that this country complies with all of them. So it does comply with certain requirements of the Stockholm convention, but certainly not all of them. I think there is a degree of mistrust on this side of the Chamber about the specifics of the purpose, as outlined in Part 1. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI am also concerned\u2014and we will, no doubt, further on in the debate, be putting forward some amendments to fix the problem\u2014that by passing this bill today, we will run roughshod over members of Parliament who are sitting in the Chamber and listening, because Parliament will not have a say at all. In fact, one could say that the purpose of this bill is to run roughshod over members of Parliament, because Parliament will not have a say at all on this convention, which was signed off well over 2 years ago. Even the provision \u201Cby Order in Council\u201D will be bypassed as well, I believe, through the passing of this bill. I know that Judith Collins brought in an amendment for the last bill we discussed in the House, and I hope that she brings in a similar amendment to address the issues in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002203a7e9813c0848128bba6c736d590ad1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203a7e9813c0848128bba6c736d590ad1\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221d7914eaa4b54287b17d287bb3d7554b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000442\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000443\u0022\u003Eto insert after the word \u201Cwith\u201D, the words \u201Ccertain requirements of\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002292469a2b58d747af9d51057f992991ad\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000444\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002283b5f5b266844e06b548673d730d88b9\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002263afdc9f24e347788a99814eb5fc2de4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263afdc9f24e347788a99814eb5fc2de4\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E There are two very significant issues that I want to refer to in Part 2, which covers the amendments to the principal Act. I foreshadow that, because I may not get through them in my 5-minute call, I may seek a second call. I believe that they are serious issues. The first one relates to the important issue about whether, in the future, once this law is passed, an amendment to the Stockholm convention, carried by other countries that New Zealand did not agree with, could become part of our domestic law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E This is a very serious issue, and I refer members of the Committee to what the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee had to say about this. I will read straight from the commentary, and it is really important that people listen to this carefully. I am reading from the paragraph headed \u201CDefinition of Stockholm Convention\u201D, which states: \u201CWe considered the definition of \u2018Stockholm Convention\u2019 in clause 4 of the bill that applies to amendments or substitutions of the Convention. The Regulations Review Committee proposed an amendment so that the definition would limit amendments to the Convention to those that had been included in Schedule 1AA. We are advised\u2019\u2019\u2014this is the select committee saying this\u2014\u201Cthat the Committee\u2019s concern\u201D\u2014that is, the Regulations Review Committee\u2019s concern\u2014\u201Cis about amendments to the Convention applying automatically in New Zealand\u2019s domestic law. Rather than amend this definition, we have substituted a new definition of environmentally sound disposal so that the rules about disposal are set by ERMA, rather than being set directly by the Convention.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want members to read that section of the commentary carefully, because it should show them that the select committee did not address the concern of the Regulations Review Committee. The select committee amended the matters relating to the disposal of persistent organic pollutants, but this law that we are passing today has to do with a whole lot more than just disposal. This law covers importation, manufacture, use, and storage\u2014not just disposal. The way this bill is currently written, all those matters relating to use, importation, and manufacture, which could be changed by a change to the Stockholm Convention\u2014a change that New Zealand may not even agree with\u2014could become automatically part of our domestic law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe select committee failed to understand, in my view, the concern of the Regulations Review Committee. We need only read that part of the commentary to see how the select committee has failed to address the concern of the Regulations Review Committee. The Regulations Review Committee was saying it was concerned that amendments to the convention could apply automatically in New Zealand\u2019s domestic law\u2014and what does the select committee say? It says it has changed the rules about the disposal of persistent organic pollutants. This legislation covers a whole lot more than just disposal. Although New Zealand retains domestic control over disposal of persistent organic pollutants\u2014the select committee did make that amendment to the definition of \u201Cenvironmentally sound disposal\u201D in clause 4\u2014the way I read this legislation, and, it seems, the way the Regulations Review Committee read it, New Zealand loses control over the other matters covered by the Stockholm convention, such as manufacture, importation, and usage. If I am wrong, I would appreciate the Minister getting to his feet and explaining where I am wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThis is a serious, serious matter, and that is why I have proposed an amendment, which I will foreshadow right now. My amendment is to paragraph (b) of the definition of Stockholm Convention in section 2(1), in clause 4, and it would: \u201Comit all words from \u2018are\u2019 onwards\u201D\u2014that is where, at present, it refers to \u201Cthe Annexes that are, or will become, binding on New Zealand\u201D\u2014and substitute the words \u201Care added to schedules 1AA and 2A by the Governor-General by Order in Council\u201D. At least, then, the Government of New Zealand would be making a conscious decision to add the changes to the Stockholm convention to our domestic law, instead of leaving this bill so that changes are automatically made to our domestic law because of decisions made by other countries elsewhere in the world. I submit to the Government that this is a very serious issue. It worried the Regulations Review Committee. I believe the select committee failed to address it adequately, and I urge the Minister to respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002265e3c1ee8ce642e3b289b1b8b10a02d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265e3c1ee8ce642e3b289b1b8b10a02d4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to reiterate that I too am deeply concerned about what appears to be an error in the drafting of Part 2 of this bill, which my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith brought up. I would like to speak on that further, but I would also like to bring to the Committee\u2019s attention an issue in clause 8, \u201CExemptions from Act for small-scale research on hazardous substances\u201D. The clause states: \u201CSection 33 of the principal Act is amended by inserting, after paragraph (b), the following paragraph: \u2018(ba) the use does not create or involve a persistent organic pollutant; and\u2019.\u201D The National Council of Women fear that this bill as drafted may mean that research into this area will be excluded. That would clearly be very unfortunate, and would require some changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut perhaps even more important is that the provisions of the original Act, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, and the bill before us are both restricted to \u201Csmall-scale\u201D research. I believe we have no definition of what small-scale research is, and, again, I think that the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, hopefully, will be able to take a call on and clarify that issue, because it is important. The National Council of Women makes a submission that supports the bill, and gives particularly strong support for increased funding for research into the management and remediation of toxic waste.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe National Council of Women also believes that it is important, through clause 8, that research into persistent organic pollutants is continued. The council says that, in its view, clause 8 contains the inherent contradiction that research use of hazardous substances is permitted\u2014as long as it does not involve a persistent organic pollutant. That implies that research into persistent organic pollutants cannot use persistent organic pollutants in that research, and the council questions how such research can proceed without involving those substances. The council suggests strongly that this provision is clarified to enable research, such as that into remediation strategies, to proceed expeditiously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ETo further confuse the issue, I add the question of what \u201Csmall-scale\u201D research constitutes. Certainly, when I have the opportunity, I will be putting forward an amendment to clarify it to mean research. We will take out the wording \u201Csmall-scale\u201D, because it is confusing. Any research that goes through the Environmental Risk Management Authority, or the responsible authority, will be considered on a case-by-case basis, using the precautionary principle. I believe that the Royal Commission on Genetic Modification got it right when it endorsed the work and activity of the Environmental Risk Management Authority in its report 2 years ago. The authority is an organisation that we should have confidence in. Perhaps it needs some sharpening, but, once again, I believe that with wording such as \u201Csmall-scale\u201D we just have another stumbling block that may require Parliament\u2019s interpretation. So I intend to try to amend both this bill and the parent Act in order to take out that wording. As the National Council of Women said, research into persistent organic pollutants is very important and should be able to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3e19d698b6a4fb5a8da3d2083824844\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3e19d698b6a4fb5a8da3d2083824844\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E During the second reading of this bill, I asked whether the Minister would take the trouble to explain why we need clause 4B. A Supplementary Order Paper has been sprung upon us by the Minister that inserts a delegation by authority provision into the legislation. New Zealand First dislikes matters being left to Orders in Council, or being dealt with by way of regulation; we dislike even more an authority to do something, which is traditionally given by Parliament to a Minister or some other authority named in legislation, being given to somebody else altogether.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E From looking at the explanatory note to the bill, I see that, initially, the Environmental Risk Management Authority was to be given the authority to do something; now, instead of the authority doing it, the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 97 to insert new clause 4B allows an employee to do it: \u201C(i) any employee \u2026 with relevant experience; or (ii) if there is no employee with relevant experience, any other person with relevant experience, whether or not that person is a member of the Authority:\u201D. One presumes that when the Government introduced this legislation to the House, it had thought about the matter very carefully. It gave the Environmental Risk Management Authority the power to do something. Now we are finding that the Government, in its arrogance, is proposing to change the law so that an employee with relevant experience, or possibly someone with relevant experience who is not even an employee, can do it. What is \u201Crelevant experience\u201D\u2014making the morning tea or having a PhD? There is no definition of \u201Crelevant experience\u201D. On what is a relatively simple bill, we are being asked, with no explanation at all, to give over the powers of the Environmental Risk Management Authority to someone who does not work for it but has \u201Crelevant experience\u201D, whatever that might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI did indicate in my speech in the second reading debate that I expected the Minister, as a courtesy, to give us some explanation for that. As far as I am aware, no explanation has been given. That is absolutely arrogant and shows this minority Labour Government\u2019s disregard for the principles and requirements of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI also raised during the second reading the point about the way in which matters can get out of hand. The Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants has not yet been ratified. In the Minister\u2019s first reading speech she said that 50 countries needed to sign up before it could be ratified, and that she thought the number that had signed up was somewhere in the high 40s. Then we heard from Minister Chris Carter today that it was somewhere in the 30s. It seems to be going downwards. This convention is not international law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe have seen what this Government does in terms of conventions that are not international law, such as the Kyoto Protocol. For it to be international law, countries that account for 55 percent of carbon dioxide emissions, and that are party to it, need to sign it, and only about 40 percent is signed for. As America, on 36 percent, and Russia, on 16 percent\u2014totalling 52 percent\u2014have not signed it, it is not international law. But the Government is ramming it down the throats of our farmers, and is trying to get money based on something that is not international law. This bill deals with another convention that is not yet international law, the Stockholm convention\u2014which we are and have been implementing for farming purposes, anyway, regardless of whether it is in our legislation\u2014and the Government is giving authority to some person with \u201Crelevant experience\u201D, with no definition of what that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Opposition cannot possibly support an amendment that has not been explained at all by the Minister. The Committee deserves to hear what is meant by that particular amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022af2e6981ee1e44e6b2ca21374404fb69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af2e6981ee1e44e6b2ca21374404fb69\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take up an issue that was peripherally raised in the debate on Part 1 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, because I believe it is a truly significant issue. It may not be possible to deal with it in the Committee stage, but it does need to be dealt with. Dr Lockwood Smith has an amendment that may go some way towards resolving the issue but may, in fact, do little more than highlight the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI do not think there are any members of the Regulations Review Committee, apart from H V Ross Robertson and myself, in the Chamber at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022807869aa3af74593abfee3c7e75be8be\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: What about this one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226029805460604dc1963bf9fc3b6b2097\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: There are three members of the Regulations Review Committee in the Chamber at the moment, so there will be shared knowledge on the question that I now raise. There is oblique reference to the problem in the commentary on the bill, under the heading \u201CDefinition of \u2018Stockholm Convention\u2019 \u201D. The short point, which others have spoken about, is that if there are changes to the international treaty, New Zealand will automatically see those changes fall into our domestic law without our having the opportunity of assessing whether the changes should be made. It is an issue that the Regulations Review Committee has had to grapple with in the context of regulations incorporated by reference. That has led to parliamentary counsel drafting\u2014albeit in the setting of regulations\u2014template materials that it is suggested should be used where incorporation by reference is sought. That is very relevant in the context of secondary and tertiary legislation that refers, for example, to foreign standards, but it is equally applicable in the context of the situation we are talking about, where multilateral foreign instruments are sought to be incorporated into domestic law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI invite the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, to contemplate whether it is possible for him, with the skill and guile of those who sit behind him, to draft amendments that would resolve the issue. It surely cannot be appropriate to face a situation in which New Zealand domestic law can be altered at the whim of a third party\u2014or, in this case, a multitude of third parties\u2014which, by protocol or amendment to a principal treaty, can effect significant changes to that base document. That issue is compelling. It may be one of the core legal problems that arise in respect of Part 2. I urge Government members to give their prompt and full support to our having the Minister look at that issue. As others have said, we are in real danger of drifting into a circumstance of threat to our sovereignty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are other provisions in Part 2 that are well worth comment. Clearly, they include the actual definition of a persistent organic pollutant, in clause 4. It refers to the substances listed in schedule 2A of the principal Act, which is inserted by schedule 2 of the bill. We find aldrin, chlordane, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, toxaphene, polychlorinated biphenyls, and DDT included in that schedule. But there are other provisions that it is appropriate to refer to briefly. Clause 5 inserts the driving provision in the legislation, and that is the provision dealing with the prohibition of the import, manufacture, or use of persistent organic pollutants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e534d1063e3940da95603a00d703e2b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e534d1063e3940da95603a00d703e2b1\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on Part 2 of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. There have been some very, very good arguments raised on this side of the House by my National Party colleagues, and also by my New Zealand First and ACT party colleagues. This bill, the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, and other like conventions are all about taking away bits of New Zealand\u2019s sovereignty and signing up to deals. We on this side of the Chamber understand that; none of us want an environment that is polluted or that will not be fit for our children and grandchildren to live in. [Interruption] I say to that member, David Cunliffe, in particular that, no, not all treaties are bad, but some Labour Party members are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI come back to Part 2. What is particularly concerning\u2014[Interruption] I am really looking forward to Mark Gosche taking a call at some stage; I thought he was asleep. This particular legislation has some very good intentions, but at the end of the day clause 4, because of a wish to include any amendments to the Stockholm convention, allows New Zealand officials effectively to make law for New Zealand without those bills coming back here to Parliament. That is a real concern. The Government\u2019s Regulation Review Committee raised this issue and said it is a real concern. I am sorry to say that the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, under the chairmanship of the chair, the Hon Peter Dunne, and the deputy chair, Graham Kelly, has not actually considered it to be so important as to take notice. That committee wants to allow for directions to be given as to the disposal of persistent organic pollutants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn the newspapers this week\u2014and I think it was the Green Party that actually raised the issue\u2014we have seen concerns over the qualifications and experience of some of the people on the Environmental Risk Management Authority board. I think the Green Party member present would be able to confirm that there are issues concerning the Environmental Risk Management Authority and its competence. In this bill we are allowing directions to be given as to the disposal of persistent organic pollutants, and, somehow, the Environmental Risk Management Authority\u2014which has come under a bit of attack lately, and I think its chairman has actually acknowledged that it does not necessarily have all the qualifications and experience that it needs\u2014is to be in charge of giving directions. That is very concerning when the Regulations Review Committee, which is a multiparty committee full of people who make a very good and valuable contribution to Parliament and to the country generally, is saying that it is very concerned about the legislation by stealth that could take place, signed up to by overanxious and eager officials and Ministers who might think they are doing the best thing. Coming from a little country like New Zealand, those officials could be somewhat overawed in some circumstances by the size of the representation and the company in which they find themselves at these conventions. That is a very real concern. It is a concern that I would have thought the Green Party might like actually to comment on, given its quite well publicised concerns over the Environmental Risk Management Authority and its ability to do this sort of job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe have raised this issue today because we do not like law being rushed through when it could actually have a very damaging effect on New Zealand. There is no particular reason why this law needs to be rushed through. There is no particular reason why the Regulations Review Committee should be ignored.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022ed7094eed9d348a19d5167c481fdc05c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ed7094eed9d348a19d5167c481fdc05c\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am taking a second call on this part of the legislation. Members may have noted that I did not speak at all in the earlier Committee stage, but the attitude of this minority Labour Party Government is making me annoyed. I think we are entitled to some explanation as to why the Environmental Risk Management Authority can have its decisions made by someone who is not even an employee. They can be made by any person with relevant experience. I would have thought that the Green Party member present would stand up and express her concern about that amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe know that New Zealand First has a much more caring attitude to the environment than the Green Party does; it always did. The process of this legislation through the House is making it absolutely clear that our party is way above the Green Party on these issues. After all, my involvement with the environmental movement goes back to 1973, when I went to the incorporation meeting of the Values Party, which some may or may not remember. In late 1973-74 I worked with Reg Clough, who was then the leader of the Values Party. I was interested in the health side of things. My interest in the environment, which carries through to New Zealand First\u2019s interest in it, goes back a long way in New Zealand\u2019s history of environmental politics. I am sure it is far superior and longer than that of any Green Party member in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThat is why, as a member of New Zealand First, I am concerned that an environmental body will be able to give out its powers to someone who is not even a member of that body and whose experience could be greatly in doubt. In New Zealand First we are concerned about the things that are happening to the environment. I think we all have our views of the way in which the country is going. We are concerned about the overseas conventions. We talk about genetic modification, we see what the Americans are trying to do to Europe and such like in that regard, and here we are giving New Zealand\u2019s Environmental Risk Management Authority the right to delegate decision making to someone with no relevant experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMy view on this might be totally wrong; it might be based on complete ignorance and be totally without foundation. I would like the Minister to clarify the situation and make sure that my concerns are without foundation. At this stage I do not know, because the Government has sprung this amendment on us in the Committee stage, in its usual arrogant way, during urgency and without any consultation or discussion on the issue. For it to expect members of this Committee to support such an amendment shows that it has little regard for the environment. It does not care about the environment at all. I think in New Zealand First we are showing that we have the utmost care and concern for the environment. We want an explanation from the Government. The Green Party members are in cahoots with the Government, and I am sure they will be voting for the amendment. They have no real regard for the consequences of what is an absolutely dreadful amendment. If the Green Party does not agree with me, then its member can take a call to explain what it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOn the face of it, this amendment is the worst example possible of authority being delegated. Authority should never be delegated. We have seen the problems that the Regulations Review Committee, of which I am a member, has with Orders in Council. I am so concerned that I will be supporting the National Party amendment in this respect, because the way in which this legislation is set out allows any amendment to the Stockholm convention to become law without any consideration by Parliament, and that is totally unacceptable. The Government has done the right thing\u2014and the previous Government did the right thing, too, as I suspect this measure has been around for as long as that\u2014in bringing this legislation to the House, but now it is spoiling it in the sense that any amendment to it will not necessarily have to come back to Parliament. There seems to be a contradiction there. If one brings a convention to the House, surely one should bring amendments to the convention to the House, as well. It is a great practice to have conventions listed in statutes, but that convention seems to be being broken by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am disappointed that neither Marian Hobbs nor Chris Carter seems to be at all interested in this matter, and that no Minister is going to take the call to answer my query. I am very annoyed that that is the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022eeadcd004ead48c1b2b9c49d43737f2e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eeadcd004ead48c1b2b9c49d43737f2e\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022966a9932c1c44aeb88683ce57240413c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I will take one more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddfbc64f20c847d1ac960b965633336b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddfbc64f20c847d1ac960b965633336b\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney): \u003C/span\u003EThese are very serious matters. As a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee that considered this legislation, I can tell members that the concerns of the Regulations Review Committee with respect to the way this legislation might enable an outside authority to import into New Zealand\u2019s domestic law matters that this country has no say in were dealt with after the select committee really finished with this legislation. I remain concerned about that issue, and it is my view that the select committee has not dealt with it adequately. When one reads the select committee\u2019s report, one can see how confused the committee was on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn my last contribution, I would like to address clause 8, which purports to provide exemptions from the Act for small-scale research on hazardous substances. Clause 8 has to be read in conjunction with section 33 of the principal Act. Section 33 provides for exemptions from the Act for small-scale research on hazardous substances. As I read it, if we amend section 33 by adding the new paragraph (ba) in clause 8 of this bill, research on persistent organic pollutants will not be possible. I do not think that is what is intended, because if we cannot do any research on persistent organic pollutants, how can we ever improve the way we get rid of them? They exist, and like polychlorinated biphenyls, they will be around for a long time, and research needs to be done on how to get rid of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut the select committee is very confused in what it says. The committee says it looked at clause 8 to see whether any clarification was required on the issue of research on hazardous substances in relation to persistent organic pollutants. It goes on to say that clause 8 needs to be read in the context of section 33 of the principal Act\u2014which is quite right\u2014and that the effect of clause 8 is that if the small-scale use of a substance in research and development creates or involves persistent organic pollutants, then the provisions of the Act are deemed to apply. But the provisions of the Act say that one cannot do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI say to the Hon Trevor Mallard that if I am wrong, I am very happy to be proven to be wrong\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a51aacee384e90853c61c6ee4ffe8d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to read it in the context of the rest of the Act, and at that point it does not matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284364e99328142b8a9371e3367c57dfc\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I have section 33 right in front of me, and if we add what clause 8 asks us to add, which is a new paragraph (ba), I cannot see how that would allow any research at all on persistent organic pollutants. That is why I have proposed an amendment to omit clause 8\u2014we do not need it. Section 33 already covers the use of hazardous substances in research. It is already protective of New Zealand, and if we do not amend the Act, it enables careful research work to be done to improve the way we handle persistent organic pollutants. That is important research, and I am blowed if I can see how that would be allowed. I am no lawyer; I absolutely accept that, and it may be that clause 8 does, in some convoluted way, allow the use of persistent organic pollutants in research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut I say to the Hon Trevor Mallard, read what the bill says. It states that: \u201CSection 33 of the principal Act is amended by inserting, after paragraph (b), the following paragraph: \u201C(ba) the use does not create or involve a persistent organic pollutant;\u201D. That means that the exemption that is normally provided for small-scale research under section 33 must not create or involve a persistent organic pollutant. I do not see how that can possibly allow small-scale research on persistent organic pollutants. I think it is worth the Minister taking a call to point out how the law would work to enable small-scale research on persistent organic pollutants. It is an important issue, and we must be able to continue research on it. Polychlorinated biphenyls will exist in this country right through till 2016 at least, and their use will be allowed right through till then, so research is very valuable in terms of how we will dispose of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI fail to see how clause 8 enables the use of persistent organic pollutants in research, when it seems to very specifically say the opposite\u2014which is that one cannot use persistent organic pollutants in small-scale research. I really would appreciate the Minister explaining how that would work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00226f882bd27e454b919365aac93e71d311\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f882bd27e454b919365aac93e71d311\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82b8459db3c41009a9821a956d09db6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002209bbde8b9002486bba5f74d66892506e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209bbde8b9002486bba5f74d66892506e\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. ACT New Zealand has not had a call on Part 2 of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6b13b05e2ba4deba660d497509ea38a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I looked to see whether you were seeking the call, but you were not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa77db0b6aff45b59a5cc60e727cceb1\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I have been following the debate, and I really want to address the point that was just raised. It was a very important point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c453888e60304a8c9b093142ed675c6b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already agreed that the question be now put, and therefore I cannot go back on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002276f78bc7c1a141c4a3e59217407d43e7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000493\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000494\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (b) of the definition of Stockholm Convention the words \u201Care, or will become, binding on New Zealand\u201D and substitute the words \u201Care added to Schedules 1AA and 2A by the Governor General by Order in Council\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a28aeb22cd134345ae5e727ac4608c2b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000495\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000496\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b) from the definition of Stockholm Convention.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022594755ead9924b6687922c583e62f12d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000497\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith to clause 8 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000498\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002246f7463482ba441eba5000b72e848be1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000499\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 8 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000500\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Csmall-scale\u201D from the clause heading.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002232ece41ccab84dab8db6b37c070b06a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000501\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Paul Hutchison to clause 8 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000502\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new subclause (1):\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000503\u0022\u003E(1)\tSection 33 of the principal Act is amended by omitting the term \u201Csmall-scale\u201D wherever it appears.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a11042ab156d40fc962e25bdc2a41940\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000504\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 97 in the name of Hon Marian Hobbs to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000505\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002271b6a1376dea472ca555996e29a62102\u0022\u003ESchedules 1 and 2\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002231f5d326d15647e89a8f4e6f8c11dbe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231f5d326d15647e89a8f4e6f8c11dbe7\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. At the outset, I want to say that I am not relitigating the closure motion; I accept that you are the sole judge of that. I raise a point of order in terms of Speakers\u2019 ruling 54/2 that was made by Speaker Statham in 1931 and reconfirmed by Speaker Burke in 1990. It has stood the test of time, and says that the chairperson is the best judge of whether the closure motion ought to be put. Both former speakers expressed the hope that the ruling would not be applied too harshly. I am raising the issue in relation to the schedules debate because Dr Lockwood Smith raised a matter with regard to the ability of researchers to work on substances such as dieldrin and DDT. My reading of it is that they cannot. I did not have a chance to debate that in relation to the appropriate clause. I was waiting my turn, but I was denied it. With appropriate reference, I believe I can raise the matter in the schedules, and I am seeking your assurance that you will indulge me to that extent\u2014given that I was denied the right to address Part 2 of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1a00455e664ce4a7aaf5bf3f39b2d9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I recognise the point the honourable member is making. I am sure that he will be given the opportunity to debate the issue in the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002228c38bd7194743ed92b1480ab729ceda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c38bd7194743ed92b1480ab729ceda\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E As we move to the schedules of this bill, it is the standard problem\u2014the devil is always in the detail. Firstly, in schedule 1AA we have the Stockholm convention. It is classic UN-speak. Many members would have been to various UN committees. They are horrifying experiences, captured by the Non-Government Organisations around the world. All the bureaucrats gather and come up with language like this, which is in every paragraph: \u201CRecognizing that persistent \u2026\u201D, \u201CAware of the health concerns of women in developing countries\u00A0\u2026\u201D, \u201CAcknowledging that \u2026\u201D, \u201CConscious of \u2026\u201D, \u201CMindful of \u2026\u201D, and \u201CRecalling \u2026\u201D. It goes on and on\u2014\u201Cacknowledging\u201D, \u201Creaffirming\u201D, \u201Ctaking full account of\u201D. In other words, it is everything to everyone. There is even something for the small islands of the Caribbean here. We end up with a mishmash of nonsense, and often contradictory nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275fc8c2335804ae5ab1c79ae38205582\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order Madam Chairperson. The schedule debate is a very narrow debate, and it goes to whether the schedules match the substance of the bill. The member has been speaking for over a minute now, and has not debated the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223544351431fc43efabccaa74a62d3cba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: To that point of order, the previous Chairperson clearly used his discretion and assured Mr Shirley that he could speak to the bill in general.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a39d00beed314fa6adf7d5ad85fe5348\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I am grateful for that, but I can understand the Minister wanting to close it down. I will now move on to the core issue, and I want him to get up on his feet in the schedules debate and answer the question that was raised by Dr Lockwood Smith. It is that under this bill as proposed\u2014and there is a reference to the chemicals concerned, dieldrin and DDT, in the schedules\u2014research work will quite clearly not be able to be undertaken on anything that produces an organic pollutant. Moreover, one cannot use one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI know that critical research is going on. I even have a distant relative doing a PhD on the breakdown of DDT, which is vital work for this country. We have contaminated soils; we have DDT levels in some of our Canterbury meat, and in some from Southland. That means that we cannot put that meat in some of our markets. It is critical that we do the research to break down these substances. Some very exciting work is being done, but under the legislation that the Government has cobbled together and brought to this House, it will not be possible to do that. This legislation has specifically forbidden people to do research work involving these organochloride substances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThat issue has been raised with the Minister, but we did not get a satisfactory reply, and even at this late stage of the debate, I ask the Minister of Education to address it. If he cannot, would he please get one of his colleagues to do it\u2014perhaps the Minister for the Environment, who might be more knowledgeable about such substances. Who else? I cannot think of anyone else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262d8fe8b35bc42f9b1041182440170d1\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: That member has an awful cheek questioning anybody about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d8aac95a2b47989aad8b02d388b2d1\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps the member for Whanganui knows something about the issue and could perhaps explain it. The Government has an obligation to not just dismiss the issue and treat Parliament like some perfunctory thing that goes through the motions and does not address the real issues that are raised. It is clear from the wording of that bill that absolutely no research work whatsoever can be done on these substances, and that will stop important research work in its tracks. It is not just important from the research perspective; it is vital to the New Zealand economy that this work proceeds, and we would like to hear from the Minister in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ESchedule 1AA lists all of the various substances that are included, and all of them are chemicals that have been widely used in this country. Dieldrin, a widely used insecticide, has been mentioned in the debate so far. It is widely used for sheep dips\u2014part of an industry that has been the backbone of the New Zealand economy in past years, and is still a very significant component of it. DDT has been used with a lot of success for grass-grub control and many other uses, but we have moved on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EBut that is not the point\u2014we have to be assured that through hasty, badly drafted legislation, the Government will not prevent researchers doing the important work of addressing the residues of these widely used substances. As it stands, that is the way the bill reads, so I again call on the Minister in the chair to take a call to explain that. If the Minister needs more time, I am sure the House would indulge him in that. We want to address this matter and get it right. We cannot just say that it is covered in the context of the bill. It is not. I do not think the Minister really knew what he was saying, so I would ask him to reflect on that and answer that point directly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EI am speaking to the schedules, but the issue relates to clause 8, \u201CExemptions from Act for small-scale research on hazardous substances\u201D. That is a good and sensible measure, but then paragraph (ba) has been inserted in clause 8: \u201Cthe use does not create or involve a persistent organic pollutant;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022188176633385499e85366a2ed0ae56de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022188176633385499e85366a2ed0ae56de\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The member asked a reasonable question, and the reasonable Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith also asked one earlier, as well. If I may reverse back a little bit to answer the member, clause 8, as I indicated by way of interjection, must be read in the context of both the Act and the whole bill. The Act applies if the use creates or involves a persistent organic pollutant. Clause 7 amends section 30, and new section 25B(3) inserted by clause 5 allows approvals to be granted by the Environment Risk Management Authority for the use of persistent organic pollutants as analytical standards, and also for research in laboratories. I think that covers all the points that the member made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbe2bcd0863a442ba03f97bd83280807\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbe2bcd0863a442ba03f97bd83280807\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the schedules of this very important bill I thank the Minister for his explanation, but, unfortunately, I do not think it is sufficient. However, I will first just concentrate on the schedules, because they are somewhat voluminous and encompass a lot of the international obligations that we, as a sovereign nation, will have to make sure that we comply with. For instance, the objective in article 1 states: \u201CMindful of the precautionary approach set forth in Principle 15 of the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development, the objective of this Convention is to protect human health and the environment from persistent organic pollutants.\u201D The National Party certainly supports that sentiment, and supports this bill. But we are deeply concerned about the way that this Labour Government has forgotten to look at the detail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is always the detail that is hugely important in legislation\u2014and, in this case, the consistency between the bill and the principal Act. If we look at article 11, we see a heading: \u201CResearch, development and monitoring\u201D. There is nothing about small-scale research there. Highly relevant to the schedules is the fact that the amendments I have put in suggest that as we have no definition for small-scale research, it would only be consistent with the schedules of this bill to omit small-scale research from both the bill and the principal Act, if they are to be consistent with the schedules that we have before us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAfter all, one of the most important submissions on this bill came from the National Council of Women. Members of that council said how important it was from their point of view to ensure that New Zealand as a country is promoted as being clean, green, etc., although the image and reality do not always match and we have many sites contaminated with persistent organic pollutants. Because of that, it is important to ensure that ongoing research is carried out in order to make sure that the problem we have at present is remedied. But it is also important to explore alternative measures of mitigating the problem, such as using phytoremediation, and also to ensure both financial support for research to be able to be carried on and that hurdles are not put in the way by means of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe have a problem in article 11 of these schedules, and I am very concerned that this Labour Government has not been prepared to look at the detail. We have individuals, such as those in the Green Party, who from time to time are concerned about detail\u2014and quite rightly so. Sometimes I find that somewhat tedious, but here we have a problem in that we have reference to small-scale research in the bill and the principal Act, and the convention refers to research in general. For the sake of consistency it is absolutely important, when we are dealing with international conventions such as the Stockholm convention, to make sure that we, as a sovereign nation, are very thoughtful and pay attention to detail. We should make sure that there are no traps in signing up to this convention, which we heard earlier on today could, and may, change without this Parliament having the opportunity to comment on it. So it is hugely important that we have consistency between our legislation and the convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022e51d814fcf4b4665833ac0570dad69d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e51d814fcf4b4665833ac0570dad69d7\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am sorry to interrupt the member who is about to speak. I thought I heard you say to the Hon Ken Shirley that we are not to debate the actual contents of schedule 1, which sets out the convention itself. Have I got that right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff216b572cdb4050a20fc6d279cc4d7e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No. That was just a ruling that the previous Committee chairperson made in relation to Mr Shirley\u2019s request. We are debating the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59a0ee758874526b30ad788d0cb3998\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: So when I do get to speak, I can speak on them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022253250b4711a458697a13570dbe4c269\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member may speak on the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcea6ddfa05542408e056e0a839bcd19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcea6ddfa05542408e056e0a839bcd19\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E There are two schedules. The first schedule is the actual Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants done at Stockholm on 23 May 2001, and the annexes to the convention; and the second schedule, which surprisingly is labelled schedule 2, lists the persistent organic pollutants. If time permits I would like to talk about schedule 2, but I will confine my comments to schedule 1, and express real concern that the United Future party does not seem to have understood the significance of the debate as it has gone through the Committee stage, and has been foolish in the extreme in not looking at the implications of the proposed amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is well illustrated in article 18. Article 18 is all about settlement of disputes, and for those United Future members who are present in the Chamber and may be following this issue, it is set out at page 32. I will make two points about article 18. The first is to draw the attention of United Future members to article 18(2)(a), which is all about the possibility of arbitration in accordance with procedures to be adopted by the conference of the parties in an annex \u201Cas soon as practicable\u201D. The point that speakers from this side of the Chamber have urged on the Government is that because the bill is worded in the way it is, there may be later events\u2014and here is an illustration of a later event\u2014this annex will be developed, will become part of the treaty, and as a result of the clumsy drafting in the bill it will become part of New Zealand domestic law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is a simple illustration, and there may well be multiple illustrations within the context of the treaty. There was an opportunity for United Future members, if they were thinking members of Parliament, to have looked at this issue and resolved it. They failed to do that. The allusion can easily be made to their being little more than the marionettes of the current Labour Government. That is a sadness, because if their role is to stand as a party that can add value to the process, then they fail so significantly in this case. United Future members sit dumbly; the Labour members barrack. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like to come back to the second point, which is concerned with the settlement of disputes provision in article 18. A process is set out in article 18 for the settlement of disputes through negotiation or other peaceful means. It is an interesting trend in international treaties, particularly environment treaties, that those dispute resolution provisions are becoming increasingly common. One could not say that 10 years ago, but now there are about 180 treaties of an environmental character, as this one is, that contain quite sophisticated dispute resolution provisions. We have a plan for negotiation, or other peaceful means, and the ability for parties to stipulate for one of two options. The first is arbitration, and I have referred to that clause in article 18(2)(a). The second possibility is a submission of the dispute to the International Court of Justice. That is not a customary provision to find in dispute resolution provisions in environmental treaties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere are subtleties in the way these provisions have been developed. Clause 6 of article 18 in Schedule 1AA states that if the parties to a particular dispute have not stipulated for one of those two procedures, or if they have and there is not concurrence in respect of the choice that the two disputing parties have made, the dispute then goes to the conciliation commission. We see immediately the difference between that and the arbitration process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00223b7d97f94a6640479e12deab6e1a3181\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b7d97f94a6640479e12deab6e1a3181\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to address the matter of the schedules and could I cast members\u2019 minds back to the debate we had earlier regarding the Stockholm convention. Members will recall that we talked about it in the debate on the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill. We also talked about what is in Schedule 1AA, \u201CStockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants\u201D. It is good to see that arise in this bill, the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. Members will recall that at that time we put up an argument about what is listed in the schedule in the other bill and why it was not listed in the schedules of that bill. I am delighted to see that the Stockholm convention is listed as part of the schedules of this particular bill. I remember a clause in the other bill that Judith Collins requested to be removed, because it stated that when conventions like the Stockholm convention were passed, in future they would automatically become law without this Parliament addressing it and without even Orders in Council. We put that concern forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI say that, because Schedule 1AA \u201CStockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants\u201D states things like \u201CRecognizing that persistent organic pollutants possess toxic properties, \u2026 Aware of the health concerns, \u2026 Acknowledging that the Arctic ecosystems \u2026 Conscious of the need \u2026 Mindful of decision \u2026 Recalling the pertinent provisions\u201D, and on it goes: \u201CReaffirming\u201D, \u201CEncouraging\u201D, \u201CRecognizing\u201D, \u201CDetermined\u201D. All those words are highly emotive, stating activity, things like \u201CRecognizing\u201D, \u201CAware of\u201D, \u201CAcknowledging\u201D, \u201CConscious of\u201D, and \u201CMindful\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe point made by Judith Collins was that we are not mindful, we are not aware, we are not recognising, we are not conscious of, we cannot recall, we are not reaffirming, we cannot encourage, we are not determined to, and we have not agreed to. Any convention might be passed in the future, so why would one secure it in legislation for ever, without members of Parliament being able to scrutinise it; and without even an Order in Council? That is what the member of Parliament for Clevedon, Judith Collins, was referring to. That was her concern, and those schedules only build on her argument. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI put it to the Chair and to the new Minister in the chair that the schedules simply back up what Judith Collins was putting forward to this Committee. The Minister in the chair should be mindful of that. I would like him to acknowledge that, to be aware of that, recognise that, and recall that. I would like him to encourage that, to be determined and to agree with that. I hope that the Minister takes a call and acknowledges Judith Collins\u2019 forethought in regard to the schedules. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI am intrigued with schedule 1AA, \u201CStockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants\u201D, which talks about the Rotterdam convention and makes reference to it. It is a fascinating convention. Many members here would have lain awake at night reading about that one. We know what it says\u2014members should know what it says. That convention was passed on 11 September 1998. Members did not have the luxury of my wisdom in this House at that time, but they have it now. That convention was passed on 11 September 1998. However, the Stockholm convention refers to the Rotterdam one, and we have a bit of background on that. I have information on that that I have shared. However, we do not have any information on the Basel Convention on the Control of Transboundary Movements of Hazardous Wastes and Their Disposal\u2014that is referred to in this schedule. Does any member here recall the details of the Basel convention? Mr Prebble does not recall that. Does any member here recall the Rio declaration, which has also been referred to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d5ff273f02ab449b9f72af01d51679bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d5ff273f02ab449b9f72af01d51679bf\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E Schedule 1 in particular has some concerns for us. I notice that the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants is contained in schedule 1AA and I have looked at that convention. Most of New Zealand will not have had a chance to look at the Stockholm convention, or have had any input to it, and they would be wondering what is going on when they see that it starts off with all sorts of talk about health concerns, especially in developing countries, resulting in local exposure to persistent organic pollutants. Of course, in New Zealand we know about this. People in this country have long claimed that they have been adversely affected by persistent organic pollutants, but they probably did not use those terms. They probably called them chemicals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt then goes on about the particular impacts on women, and, through them, the effects upon future generations. I have made this point once, and I shall make it again: why does our Government sign up to agreements that talk just about particular impacts upon women, when men are also part of our population? In fact, they make up 49 percent of the population, and why is it that everything has to be put down like this? Why did they not just put \u201Cwomen and children in the lifeboats first\u201D? What our Government is signing up to is absolute twaddle. I am quite happy to go along, and I am sure everyone on this side of the House is quite happy to go along, with the general feeling of the convention and a lot of its specifics, but when we have this sort of wishy-washy, wimpy, white socialist liberal rubbish going on here\u2014I am sorry, for the Act party; I did not mean to say \u201Cliberal\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282966e8c5a2642c7b8a8027e5987163c\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Why does this have to go through under urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234d68f2282fe4b3f86231bfc62efbeb8\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. Then we go further and I see that we are acknowledging that the Arctic ecosystems and indigenous communities are particularly at risk, because of the biomagnification, and that it is a public health issue. Well, golly gee, is that not a concern of the entire world, that all people need to be concerned about this? What about the people of Africa? I would have thought it was of particular concern in Africa. Is it not a particular concern in New Zealand, Australia, and the United States? Why is it just the Arctic ecosystems in indigenous communities, and what is indigenous? It is absolute twaddle that our Government is signing up to and it has that sort of ecospeak at the start, when really, we should be looking at what is really important. I have raised those issues before about the Environmental Risk Management Authority and the whole ability for us to be able to deal with this convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EArticle 2 of schedule 1AA talks about the parties to the convention, and they are parties that agree to be bound by it. I would like to see annexed to that schedule a statement of which particular States have signed up to the convention. I think that would be interesting reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt would be interesting to know whether our major trading partners have signed up to it. It would be interesting to know whether the major polluters of the world have signed up to it. Why is it that in little countries like New Zealand officials and Ministers become overawed when treated as though they are important, for once in their lives, and are always willing to sign us up to things, and tie us in, and give away a bit of our sovereignty, just so they can feel they are doing the right thing? We could talk about the programme for sustainable development of small island developing States, which is included in schedule 1AA of the hazardous substances legislation. We could say that we are pretty much a small island developing State, but I would like us to have better information on this. Who has signed up to this convention? Has it been signed up to by the People\u2019s Republic of China? Has Taiwan been given the opportunity to sign up to it? Has the USA signed up to it? Has Australia signed up to it? Has the UK signed up to it? Has Barbados signed up to it? Has Zimbabwe signed up to it? I want to know. Who else has signed up to it? I hope the Minister who is now in the chair will have that information. I am sure he could get that from the officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is important that we know what we are signing up to\u2014who else thinks it is important that we give away a bit of our sovereignty. When I talk about that, and sovereignty, and treaties and conventions in general, we all accept that at some times we do have to give up a bit of sovereignty to make the world a better place, and a better place for a small country like ourselves. But we should never do so willy-nilly, and we should never do so just because an official decides it is a good thing to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00221311345e0299425cbf06c38e22037949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221311345e0299425cbf06c38e22037949\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224932c696e4724298b4158525f2f12838\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 22; New Zealand First 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000547\u0022\u003ESchedules agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000548\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e0a13428c74449cba2ed87938547ada\u0022\u003EImports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022abe8b8e62672427abbe36b402d85bef8\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a724a67060c24497b9e9d6b7baf3b757\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a724a67060c24497b9e9d6b7baf3b757\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Commerce: I move, That the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. The bill has been discussed in the Committee stage at some length, together with its companion. I believe that all the issues have been thoroughly debated. I do not intend to delay its passage any further. However, I would like to thank the officials who have worked on it, and the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its consideration of both the bill and the international agreements underlying it. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00225de68708fd8640d7a6740705bfbbfecc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225de68708fd8640d7a6740705bfbbfecc\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the third reading of this bill. I started to wonder whether something was happening out there that we were not aware of, in the light of the very short contribution made by the Hon Paul Swain. It must mean that the Labour Government is really finding it necessary to pass this legislation in a hurry\u2014except nobody is telling us why. We are still struggling to understand why this bill has to be rushed through its Committee stage and third reading during urgency. The National Party made it very clear at the outset, during the first and second readings, that we support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAccording to the explanatory note on the bill, it amends the Import Control Act to provide for the making of export control regulations, by Orders in Council, \u201Cto give effect to the requirements of\u2014the Rotterdam Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure for Certain Hazardous Chemicals and Pesticides in International Trade: \u2026 the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants: \u2026 any other international obligation that provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment.\u201D The National Party is in agreement with that amending legislation, and we therefore express our disappointment that, in view of our cooperation in support of the legislation, some of the very sensible amendments we have worked through diligently and conscientiously in order to make a better bill have been largely rejected by the Labour Government. I would like to go through some of the amendments\u2014to put them on record\u2014that National believes would have made this a much better bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI started with proposing an amendment to the title to insert the words \u201Con Hazardous Substances\u201D. Therefore the title would have read much better as \u201CImports and Exports (Restrictions on Hazardous Substances) Amendment Bill\u201D. We believe that, in the modern Parliament, titles need to be specific, so that when people read legislation they know its intention from the first glance. When we started to examine the bill we found it even more necessary to make the title clear and specific, because some provisions in the legislation could have led to all sorts of interpretation, or could have interpreted the power given by Parliament to make an Order in Council in a much wider way than Parliament actually intended. Unfortunately, when I put that amendment forward, although we had the support of New Zealand First, it was not agreed to. I would like particularly to express my disappointment with United Future. That party could have made a difference by demonstrating to the public that it can exercise independence in making sure that better legislation is enacted by Parliament, but apparently the senior Labour whip, David Benson-Pope, had also taken management of United Future\u2019s caucus\u2014to my disappointment\u2014and I was told: \u201CNo way!\u201D. They would not even consider the amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn the event of that amendment failing, my colleague Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith sensibly put forward another amendment to new section 3A inserted by clause 9, \u201CProhibition of exports\u201D. If I can have the indulgence of the House, I will read out subsection (1), because without my colleague\u2019s amendment the public will not appreciate that the interpretation of this clause can be very wide: \u201CThe Governor-General, if satisfied that it is necessary to give effect to an international obligation, may, by Order in Council, prohibit the exportation from New Zealand of\u2014(a) specified goods; (b) goods of a specified class or classes.\u201D It goes on to state in subsection (2): \u201CA prohibition may be\u2014(a) general: (b) limited to the exportation of goods to a specified place or class of places: (c) limited to the exportation of goods to a specified person or class of persons: (d) limited to the exportation of goods by a specified person or class of persons: (e) absolute: (f) conditional.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI think we get the picture now. This prohibition of exports can indeed be very wide, because it can give effect to any international obligation. So my colleague proposed an amendment to insert after the words \u201Cinternational obligations\u201D, the words \u201Cspecified in section 2(1)\u201D, which refers to the principal Act. That means that if ever we were caught in being challenged by any entity, the court, with the words of the amendment inserted, would understand that a prohibition order could be issued only if it did not contradict the principal Act. I think that amendment would have made this legislation a lot clearer. Unfortunately, our proposal seemed to fall on deaf ears.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHowever, the National Party never gives up when we believe that legislation needs to be amended. We believe in making good legislation, so my very capable colleague Judith Collins proposed another amendment, which, hopefully, the Labour Government would take heed of. She sensibly considered clause 6, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, under which the meaning of \u201Cinternational obligation\u201D\u2014which we just touched on in clause 9\u2014is spelt out. Clause 6 states: \u201Cinternational obligation means\u2014(a) the Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure \u2026: (b) the Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants \u2026: (c) the Convention on the Control of Transboundary Movements of Hazardous Wastes and their Disposal \u2026:\u201D, and so on. About four conventions are spelt out under clause 6, which we might take some comfort from. Unfortunately, the fifth paragraph, paragraph (e), states: \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand \u2026\u201D. I think that the amendment my colleague proposed, saying that we should remove that paragraph, is an eminently sensible one. This Parliament should not try to make binding legislation on international obligations in the future, without even knowing the type of obligation we might find ourselves bound to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe last thing I want to point out is that the bill has a statement about compliance costs, but it did not try too hard. I find it interesting that that statement, which is meant to spell out the costs and benefits of implementing this legislation, simply goes on to say that the bill is good legislation\u2014that it is good for the health of New Zealanders, anyway\u2014so we should pass it. The bill seems to suggest there will be no additional costs, apart from those in respect of the Ministry for the Environment and some secretariat contribution to the public sector. I do not take too much comfort from that, because, as I have just mentioned, quite a bit of the legislation actually binds us to future convention obligations, and I cannot see how one can come up with specific current costs in relation to such obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022cabce87ebb14460a80e8b9938ebaf0a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cabce87ebb14460a80e8b9938ebaf0a5\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this bill. The bill has had significant debate during the previous stages, and I think one of the best things this House can do is to expedite its passage. Therefore, I will not speak any further on it, and I hope that we can facilitate the rapid passage of the bill through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u002272e9d4d70cf54250964e5f90047b6414\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272e9d4d70cf54250964e5f90047b6414\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens are happy to support this legislation, which implements several international conventions. It implements the Rotterdam convention, which requires the informed consent of the receiving country before sending it hazardous wastes, the Stockholm convention, which prohibits or controls persistent organic pollutants, including prohibitions on their export or import, and the Basel and Waigani conventions, which control the transboundary movement of hazardous wastes to ensure that there is the capacity to handle them properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIn my first reading speech on the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, I drew attention to the ways in which New Zealand is currently in breach of the Basel convention. Today I want to report on that in a little more detail. The preamble to this bill identifies the objectives of the Basel convention. They are the reduction in transboundary movements of hazardous wastes to the minimum amount that is consistent with environmentally sound and efficient management, their treatment and disposal as close as possible to the source of generation, and the minimisation of the generation of such wastes. The Ministry of Economic Development is responsible for implementing the Basel convention, and the ministry is not doing its job. It is perhaps not entirely appropriate that the Ministry of Economic Development should be responsible for administering such important environmental policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EFor several years now, New Zealand has been exporting hazardous waste in the form of used lead-acid batteries to a plant in the Philippines that the New Zealand Government says is capable of handling them, but that is, in fact, allowing the waste to collapse into a river and pollute river sediments to a level that would actually make that riverbed a lucrative lead mine. According to answers to written questions, the ministry has approved for export over the last 3 years quantities ranging from 200 to 2,500 tonnes of lead-acid batteries a year to that plant. In an oral question in December last year, I asked the Minister for the Environment about the monitoring we do of the hazardous wastes that we export to non-OECD countries and of the way they are treated in those countries. Pete Hodgson, answering on behalf of the Minister, did not have any information on that, and little information has been provided since. The Minister had previously defended exporting hazardous used batteries to a developing country, by saying: \u201CSome non-OECD countries have perfectly sound disposal facilities.\u201D That is the key to whether we should worry about battery exports to Philippine Recyclers Inc. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIn an answer to a written question, Marian Hobbs told us that all facilities to which New Zealand sends hazardous wastes have been assessed by the Ministry of Economic Development for their capacity to manage hazardous wastes in an environmentally sound manner. We discovered that \u201Cassess\u201D in that case amounted to receiving a letter from the Philippines authority that the plant met its requirements. But it is well known that one of the distinguishing differences between OECD countries and non-OECD countries is the institutional capacity to monitor and enforce Government requirements. The Philippines Department of Health Bureau of International Health Cooperation stated in January 2002 that the Philippines has weak enforcement of control measures and programmes on hazardous waste due to the inadequate expertise of those handling the inspections, and that the Philippines \u201Chas no legal basis for Government inspection of industrial operations in order to address under-reporting of production levels and wastes generated by factories\u201D. So relying on the assurances of the Philippines authority is naive, to say the least. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWhen the Ministry of Economic Development assesses the capacity of facilities, it refers to the facilities being capable of handling hazardous wastes in an environmentally sound manner, but not to whether they actually do so. The actual record of Philippine Recyclers Inc. leaves me with a lot of concern. In 1990 it was found that some of its workers had seriously high lead levels in their blood, and some still have mental health problems and compromised immune systems. In 1996 the plant was found to be dumping battery waste illegally, leading to serious contamination, and the damage continues. We now have photographs of piles of lead waste sitting outside, exposed to the elements. A month ago, on 30 May, the retaining wall collapsed and dumped large quantities of battery waste into the river. We have other photos, too, but the one I have here is the clearest one to show the House. A month later, that wall has still not been fixed. We have the figures for upstream and downstream lead levels in sediments, and they are appalling. The lead level in some of those river sediments, measured outside the factory, is 24 percent\u2014the level of a particularly rich lead mine. On all downstream sites the lead levels are many times above the acceptable levels; in fact, they are between 3 times and 300 times the levels that they are upstream of the plant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIn New Zealand certain permits are required to dispose of the residual waste to the most modern landfills. In the Philippines, the company has simply been stockpiling that waste since its practice of dumping it in remote, uncontrolled dumps was forbidden. Minister Tamihere has told us in response to another written question that the factory has international standard ISO 14001 accreditation, which sounds good. But the ISO standard is more about intentions and plans than about actual performance, and it is clear that the performance is abysmal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EBut even if Philippine Recyclers Inc was not such a poor performer, New Zealand should still not be exporting its waste batteries overseas. Even if used lead-acid battery recycling is 98 percent efficient at recovering materials, there is still no known way to make the residual waste safe. By exporting used lead-acid batteries we are imposing the externalities of processing our hazardous waste on people in the Philippines. We have a moral obligation to deal with our own waste, and not to export harm. That trade is in direct contravention of the Basel Convention in two respects. First, it does not reduce transboundary movement to the minimum consistent with environmentally sound and efficient management. No one could describe the behaviour of that plant as environmentally sound. Second, it does not treat and dispose of the waste as closely as possible to the source of generation, because there is a battery recycling facility in New Zealand. Here in Wellington, and complying with all the environmental requirements of the Wellington Regional Council, is the Exide Technologies battery recycling plant, which cannot get enough batteries to keep it fully utilised and is importing them from Australia. So while New Zealand batteries are travelling the high seas to a destination where they will be recycled badly, with severe risk to the environment and people, at the same time Australian batteries are travelling the high seas to keep the New Zealand plant going. How stupid and how ludicrous can free trade get? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThat is an example of why New Zealand should ratify the Basel ban, a further amendment to the Basel convention. The Basel ban stops the export of hazardous waste to non-OECD countries because they are unlikely to have adequate systems in place to handle it safely, and developed countries should take responsibility themselves for the waste that they create. It is not yet in force, and New Zealand is among the countries that has refused to ratify it. The Philippine Recyclers Inc plant, with its supposed environmental excellence, has been touted by New Zealand and others as evidence for why the ban should not be ratified. The evidence I have presented should put that nonsense to rest. New Zealanders are damaging the Philippines environment and the health of its people by sending their hazardous waste to a company that is supposed to have the capacity to handle it, but does not care enough to do so properly. It is out of sight, out of mind for New Zealanders, but not for the Filipinos. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI challenge the Minister, under the excellent words and objectives of the New Zealand waste strategy, to put a mandatory refundable deposit on all New Zealand batteries, so that there is an incentive to recycle them here. That used to be the case not so many years ago, before the free trade deregulation that allowed open slather in our markets. I also challenge the Minister to ratify the Basel ban and to side with the countries that are trying to improve environmental standards, rather than those that are trying to duck them. That is the context in which we support this rather limited bill, but we would like to see the policy go a lot further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u0022028fac5b281f49f58b5a279e55fe3fcc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022028fac5b281f49f58b5a279e55fe3fcc\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E This is a sensible bill. I am pleased to stand in support of it, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0feb7b5626546fe90c2ebfea2d526bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0feb7b5626546fe90c2ebfea2d526bb\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E It was once noted by a chief executive of one of the major industrial companies of the world that it does not really matter about the standards that a company does or does not comply with, because, ultimately, companies that do not comply will not be around for very much longer. [Interruption] I am getting a bit of bantering from the Green Party, but I say to Ms Fitzsimons that the reality is, when we think about it, that those countries that have the highest environmental standards are also the wealthiest. Those that have low environmental standards and pour pollutants out into the atmosphere are those that are poor; that somehow believe that if they do not tap into resources their country is going to be extremely wealthy, because in fact, they are very, very poor. The logic is absolutely perverse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThis bill is about import and export restrictions. New Zealand, of course, is a country that lives by its exports. We cannot and will not survive unless we do export. I think of a product that we exported to the Pacific Islands\u2014and, I believe, have stopped\u2014that is regarded by the health authorities as a very hazardous substance. I am sure that Ms Kedgley would agree that mutton flaps, for example, which are exported to the Pacific Islands, are a hazardous substance to the health of those people. Do we now, by passing this bill, actually seek to ban the exports of mutton flaps? Now, I would agree that, to the Pacific Islands, that is probably a very sensible thing to do, but there may be other countries in the world that would very happily further process these products and turn them into something that we have not even thought of. But are we going to ban these products just for the sake of this legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI sometimes fear greatly that we pass what seems to be quite sound legislation, only to find that the law of the unintended consequence triggers constantly because we do not understand the full implications of what we do\u2014just as when we are exporting mutton flaps to the Pacific Islands. Perhaps that is not the greatest example, but it does illustrate that we did not fully appreciate\u2014and the meat companies and farmers, probably\u2014that this was going to have some quite deleterious effect on the health of the peoples of that particular region. I make this point: is it also a problem if we export hazardous substance to, for example, the arid areas of Australia, which very rarely sees a man or beast, by comparison with trying to do something with the substances, dioxin, for example, that we have in our own country, a very high rainfall country in this part of the world? Is it not a better idea to export to those parts of the world where these products can be contained and indeed not break down\u2014if that is what they want to have happen\u2014by climatic events? So it does seem to me that these sorts of issues perhaps have not been totally thought through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI also think of the difference of opinion that many people have about what should be imported and what should be exported. I note that one of my colleagues in the Green Party would say that it is perfectly acceptable to introduce certain types of drugs into this country. I say that that is totally and utterly wrong. But where in this bill does it give me, or other people of like mind, some comfort that these things will not occur? Again, this is what we do when we put in what I would call a driftnet approach and allow the bureaucrats to determine what is going to happen and what is not going to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI think it is incumbent upon the Parliament of this nation to actually specify as much as it can those things\u2014which we believe, which we have learnt from constituents and indeed from our own research\u2014on which we specifically wish to impose a ban that is not appropriate. But if new technologies come along, as they do almost monthly, or certainly yearly, and these bans then become totally inappropriate, we have to change our thinking. I think a very good example in terms of imports and exports is this question of genetically modified (GM) food. We have heard for a long, long time, for example, that the European Union would not allow the importation of GM food into Europe. We now know, of course, that it was nothing more than a glorified tariff barrier. It had nothing to do with food safety whatsoever. But there are sections in our society who utilise the scaremongering tactics and try to impose their will on other people for their own potentially very selfish reasons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E We found, just this very day\u2014the Dominion Post reported it\u2014that the European Union has lifted the ban on genetically modified foods. So it has accepted that the ebb and flow of imports and exports should take place. Yes, of course, it is always subject to some controls and some constraint, but we move into very, very dangerous ground when we start to impose control and regulation. As a farmer, I am certainly not going to stand in this House and say that we should not have sensible regulation, especially around the export of our food products, for example, which have, internationally, been regarded as probably the best in the world. We do also accept that from time to time there are absolute requirements, especially around the issue of DDT for example, and on the imposition of that product into our dairy products or our meat products. Although the world has an opinion that DDT should be banned, perhaps science could also give us a very good reason that DDT should not be banned. We will die of old age in this country before we ever die from an accumulation of DDT. So we do get things wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWhile I am on the subject of banning substances like DDT, I have to say that I am not quite sure how many of us can live with our conscience when we realise that, in round figures, 3 million to 5 million people a year die because we refuse to allow the ebb and flow of a product like DDT to kill the malaria mosquitoes. That is highly significant. Again, this is one of the unintended consequences we have when we start, in legislative houses throughout the world, banning products that in an emotional sense or at a cursory glance do cause some problem. But the reality is that we have to rely on the science to get it right. Although science does not always happen to be correct all the time, by and large the science does come right, and we do get very, very good standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EFinally, there is one other point that I would like to make, and that is that we do export. Dunedin City will be exporting a toxic substance as it pours sewage out into the ocean. I am sure the resource consent will allow it to do that. Where will that toxic substance end up? In the territorial waters of New Zealand? I suspect those toxic substances will end up anywhere the oceans\u2019 currents take them. So those are the sorts of double standards that I would like to draw to the attention of the House and the public when we debate such issues. We have come to the third reading of this bill, but things are just not as clear as they would seem to be on some particular issues. But, in general, it is appropriate that this House agrees to ratify these international conventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022174deb00bbe44144961207ef6df4765f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022174deb00bbe44144961207ef6df4765f\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I am proud to represent the electorate of Napier, which hosts one of the country\u2019s busiest and most progressive ports. Against that background, I support this bill wholeheartedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002291869d7d17d248ec8e8b2347cecb2d58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291869d7d17d248ec8e8b2347cecb2d58\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party supports this bill. However, we have some reservations. Unfortunately, we were not able to find a Minister in the chair during the Committee stage who could come up with some answers to some very sensible questions we posed; questions that arose from a tremendous amount of concern from all the Opposition. In particular, I have asked\u2014and have been left wanting an answer\u2014which other countries have signed up to the particular conventions that this bill relates to. No Minister in the chair has been able to tell us, and that is a concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EUndoubtedly, this bill will place restrictions on New Zealand business and New Zealand exporters. We need to know, and we should have known, which other countries are also signing up to these agreements, and that should have been part of the commentary on the bill. We are left with a certain amount of cynicism in relation to this bill. Some countries are well known for their ability to pollute other countries\u2014for instance, countries like the Prime Minister\u2019s friend, France. Have the French signed up to this bill? Have the French said that they will no longer ship plutonium all around the world, and through our waters? The answer is that no Minister in the chair has bothered to answer that question, which is a question that the people of New Zealand, I am sure, would like to know the answer to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn addition, one of the major concerns we have with this bill, apart from the stated conventions that have been signed up to by New Zealand\u2019s officials\u2014note, not by this Parliament\u2014is clause 6, which inserts paragraph (e) into section 2(1) of the principal Act. Paragraph (e) states: \u201Cany other international obligation that is or becomes binding on New Zealand and that provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment\u201D. Those obligations will in fact become the law of New Zealand, and that is a real concern. At the end of the day we must retain in this House the ability to make laws for New Zealanders and by New Zealanders. We should not ever say that some official and a Minister on a jaunt may decide between them that we will sign up to some convention and impose on the business people of New Zealand, and all the other people, all sorts of restrictions that they have not agreed to. None of those officials are going to end up, during an election, having to say what they have done for New Zealand or what they intend to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is not fair on the people of New Zealand that we are being asked to vote for this particular clause, clause 6, and say that we are going to be bound by things in the future, when we have absolutely no knowledge, no understanding, of what will be contained in that. Some of the chemicals or products that we might be talking about that pose a risk to human health and to the environment would be things such as tobacco, alcohol, and illegal drugs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAs I am from a conservative party, I am, obviously, very opposed to illegal drugs, but there are perhaps members who feel that some drugs that are currently illegal should have some of the limitations on them relaxed. I wonder whether they are concerned as to what this bill does. It tries to say that New Zealand officials and the Minister could go overseas and tie us into obligations about the use, for instance, of tobacco, alcohol, or any other substance. What if we had a Minister and officials who thought we should be signing away the right to use fertilisers on farms? There is certainly an argument that some of those fertilisers, if incorrectly used on farms, might pose a risk to some part of the environment. I think we have to be very concerned about that. It is the potential for harm that is the concern, rather than, always, the actual harm. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAt the end of the day, we do not always get these bills into the House on a timely basis. This bill has been languishing with the Government for the last year. That is how important the Government thought it was. The Government then shoves it through, under urgency, with no particular thought. That is the sort of thing that happens\u2014we might not be able to address this issue if it becomes a concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would like to take up some of the thoughts from the Green member who spoke previously. Of course, the Green Party always comes from its angle, but, having said that, I think that she did make some good points, and I would like to acknowledge that. I think one of the things she talked about was the issue of car batteries being exported to the Philippines, and the lack of facilities in the Philippines to deal with its recycling. If one looks at the countries of the world where the worst pollution happens, one sees that it happens in countries where there is the most corruption. That is what it is all about. It is politicians\u2014obviously not in this country\u2014who get paid off to be able to take in illegal products in any other country. It is that sort of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E I am not talking specifically about any particular country; I am aware of the concern over that, but when we look at some of the worst polluters in the world we know that there is corruption in officialdom, we know that there is corruption in politics, and we know that there is in fact a real concern over it. That is one of the reasons that I would really like to know which countries have signed up to this convention, and which countries will be actually required to look at it\u2014because I do not think that it will make a scrap of difference. I do not think that New Zealand signing up to these sorts of agreements, and passing this bill tonight\u2014as we will, because we have all agreed that we will make sure it is passed\u2014will make a scrap of difference to countries like the Philippines and Indonesia, or countries in which there are all sorts of issues surrounding the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EUntil we have a world that is a fairer place, and until we have politicians who commit to a parliamentary democracy\u2014with its woes, problems, and everything else\u2014we will continue to have some of the worst pollution in the world; worse than we have ever seen before, because the chemicals have got significantly more sophisticated, the land available for the disposal of chemicals has become less because of the world\u2019s growing population, and the problems have become so much more. So it might seem slightly strange to people to find me, a National Party politician, agreeing with the Greens, but I find that I often agree with Sue Kedgley, my colleague on the Health Committee. We often agree on things. It is nice that in Parliament we can\u2014certainly on this side of the House\u2014look to each other and say: \u2018That is a good point and I am going to agree with it.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is just a jolly shame that no Minister in the chair this afternoon\u2014I have been in the Chamber all afternoon; most of the day\u2014has taken any of these issues seriously, or has in fact asked\u2014I certainly have not seen one\u2014any officials for any comments. In fact, they have treated the views of the Opposition, in unison I would have to say, with a certain amount of derisory comment, which is very, very unfortunate. Certainly, I can say that the other parties in the House have been very supportive of statements that we have made. We are all, at the end of the day, in Parliament for the benefit of New Zealand, and I am very pleased to be able to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb4c7ea486024a4fb337a2dae30cead0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb4c7ea486024a4fb337a2dae30cead0\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise, however briefly, in support of this legislation. I must say that it has been quite an interesting debate in the last little while. I am, frankly, bemused\u2014as will be a lot of other members of this Chamber and listeners in the country\u2014by the reluctance, or the apparent reluctance, of a party that states its support of this bill to actually take proper progressive steps to protect our citizens and our community from, among other things in our international responsibilities, the persistent organic pollutants that are referred to in the Stockholm convention. I thank the National Party and ACT for that statement, because, among other things, it will ensure that they retain their present polling levels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022f32769ea01424a96ab8e096992dac3f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f32769ea01424a96ab8e096992dac3f3\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is just a short call to confirm that New Zealand First supports this legislation, although I think the speech from the senior Government whip was, in the circumstances, provocative and totally uncalled for. That tends to extend the debate and, more than anything else, the speech was totally unhelpful. If the Labour Government wants debates on things like this bill during urgency, that is a provocative situation, and it is not surprising that at certain times all Opposition parties decide that if the Government is going to do things for the hell of it, the Opposition, sadly, also feels that it should do things for the hell of it. This urgency should have been restricted to just the debates on the immigration bill and the health bill, rather than addressing simple legislation of this kind. In any event, New Zealand First supports the bill, and has nothing further to add to the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022c800d1da43b84573be9bc0a7f703dc93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c800d1da43b84573be9bc0a7f703dc93\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call and support the bill, and to note with interest Mr Jones\u2019 sterling contribution. It is one that I am sure will be noted by no one outside this House, nor inside it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI think this bill is sound legislation. It makes some substantial changes to protect people both domestically and internationally, and as a previous speaker said, its progress should be facilitated and the bill expedited swiftly through the House. I am sure it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002277566d95c34d4388ae7593a5890f62ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277566d95c34d4388ae7593a5890f62ef\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Those were truly generous comments from the previous speaker, were they not? Without reservation, I offer Mr Jones an accolade for his contribution to the House in the context of the comments he made on this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is right to say that National is supporting this bill, but we have reservations about some of its aspects, and it is really those reservations that I want to touch in this third reading. It is quite puzzling legislation in some respects, but its purpose is plain enough. The key measure mirrors the principal Act\u2019s import-control mechanism, and provides for the Governor-General, by Order in Council, to make regulations that prohibit the exportation of specified goods. Such a prohibition may be on general, limited, absolute, or conditional terms. A conditional prohibition permits the exportation of goods subject to the grant of a licence or permit by the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is the strange statement in the explanatory note that the enactment of the bill, together with certain amendments to other legislation, would enable New Zealand to ratify the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in September 2002. That date is clearly well passed, and this bill is not yet passed. One looks at its legislative history and sees that it was introduced on 21 May 2002. There was a first reading on 20 February 2003, and the select committee report was tabled in the House on 11 April 2003. So here is a bill that was introduced into Parliament for a defined purpose\u2014to produce an outcome according to a fixed time frame\u2014and it has simply not done that. It was apparently not seen as appropriate for the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2014to which it was referred\u2014to make any correction, because the committee\u2019s report, notes, in effect, that the committee recommended that the bill be passed without amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe specific issue I wish to pick up is the definition of international obligation in clause 6 of the bill. The bill is intended to give effect to the requirements of the Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions, and any other international obligation that provides for the restriction on, or the prohibition of, the exportation of certain chemicals, products, organisms, wastes, or other substances that pose a risk to human health or to the environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdaf338f1eea42b7b2e23858f97b1a48\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: What about Monaco?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279c426b9efbd48359ddea9daf7ef0752\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cosgrove\u2019s interjection has just reminded me that when members of the House were looking at the Stockholm Convention, we discovered that there was a significant slip of constitutional importance in that legislation. That was because of the possibility that were the provisions of the convention to change as a result of protocols, side letters, or whatever\u2014perhaps an amendment to the convention itself\u2014those changes would pass into New Zealand law without the need for further legislation to incorporate those international treaty obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn this bill we see exactly the same thing. In new paragraph (a) inserted by clause 6(1), under the definition of international obligation, one convention, \u201Cthe Convention on the Prior Informed Consent Procedure for Certain Hazardous Chemicals and Pesticides in International Trade,\u201D is defined. The definition runs on: \u201Cand includes the Annexes to the Convention, and any amendments to, or substitutions of, those documents that are or will become binding on New Zealand:\u201D. The Rotterdam Convention is included in the definition that picks up later occurring action, but the fault is replicated in the other paragraphs of the definition, in respect of both the Stockholm and Basel conventions. The legal issue is known as \u201Cincorporation by reference\u201D. It is commonplace to see references in secondary legislation to material that is incorporated by reference. That material might be overseas standards in respect of lifejackets, for example, or issues relating to the areas covered by the Codex regime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI find it of concern that the Parliamentary Counsel Office has seen fit not to take up this issue and deal with it robustly, and in a way akin to the templates that have recently been developed for regulations. Once legislation incorporates international obligations, amending legislation\u2014whether primary, secondary, or tertiary\u2014should be enacted to pick up and move into domestic law any changes that have occurred at the international level in respect of those obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would suggest that the Legislation Advisory Committee, an entity in which there is both parliamentary and external input, should look at this issue at the primary legislation level\u2014as it has similarly looked at it in respect of secondary and tertiary legislation\u2014with a view to seeing guidelines developed and changes made to the Parliamentary Counsel Office drafting manual that are referred to in the Cabinet Office step-by-step guide. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is against that background, and with the reservations I have expressed, that National supports this legislation. Its objective is a desirable one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d221851ae04c4f98b3c0178e7d956b80\u0022\u003EHazardous Substances and New Organisms(Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e4af9950cbe4cbda2a9726c8f760cf0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecedbea4d8864579bfcc54612c27f56f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecedbea4d8864579bfcc54612c27f56f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. When the bill was first introduced, it was said that the Government\u2019s intention was to ratify the Stockholm Convention as soon as practicable. The benefits of ratifying the Stockholm Convention and implementing it through this bill include protection of the health of New Zealanders, now and in the future, by reducing exposure to persistent organic pollutants; safeguarding the quality of their food, especially meat and dairy products; strengthening and protecting New Zealand\u2019s clean, green, image; addressing persistent organic pollutant stockpiles, waste, and contaminated sites; and demonstrating our commitment to maintaining and enhancing the global environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIt is worth noting that there are obligations under the Stockholm Convention that will be addressed by non-legislative means. These obligations are to minimise and, where feasible, eliminate, emissions of dioxin; to ensure that stockpiles of persistent organic pollutant chemicals are identified, managed, and disposed of in an environmentally sound manner; to identify and remediate, if possible, sites contaminated with persistent organic pollutants; and to prepare and report progress on New Zealand\u2019s national implementation plan for meeting convention obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI thank the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee for its constructive amendments to the bill, notably with regard to the disposal of persistent organic pollutants and the regulation of polychlorinated biphenyls. The Environmental Risk Management Authority can give directions as to the environmentally sound disposal of a persistent organic pollutant substance, and holders of current polychlorinated biphenyl use and storage exemptions are able to extend these exemptions until the year 2016. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EOf the 151 countries that are signatories to this convention, 33 have become ratified parties. By passing this bill into law, we will be within the first group of 50 ratifying countries, and hence responsible for bringing the convention into force. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4c249af6b44424f8315daf7ea4b7e13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4c249af6b44424f8315daf7ea4b7e13\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party supports the aims of the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill. We believe they are very important because, as has been stated, the whole purpose of the Stockholm Convention is, undoubtedly, to protect human health and the environment from persistent organic pollutant chemicals. Those substances are affectionately known as \u201CPOPs\u201D\u2014not to be confused in any way with elderly people, but referred to in that way because they are environmentally persistent, toxic, bioaccumulative, and able to be transported by the movement of air, water, and migratory species to places far from their point of origin. They are significant and of concern, and it is appropriate that New Zealand is a signatory to this convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut what has troubled me about this bill is the way the Labour Government has been dilatory in bringing it into the House. The convention was signed up over 2 years ago, and the bill has been on the Order Paper since 21 May 2002. Here is a Labour Government that says it is interested in the environment and in the United Nations, yet it has been extremely dilatory in bringing this important bill, which is relevant to two of its key pieces of rhetoric, to the House. It has been absolutely slow in progressing the bill, and here we are, in urgency, finally bringing through this necessary legislation. I have been troubled by the way the Labour Government has, once again, been dilatory, both in ensuring that environmental issues are addressed, and in ensuring that international obligations to do with the United Nations are being addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe other area that has troubled me is the lack of attention to detail that this Labour Government has applied to the process. There were three important submissions. One was from Geocycle Ltd, which is related to Holcim New Zealand. Holcim Cement is one of the largest, if not the largest, cement supplier in the world. Geocycle\u2019s focus in New Zealand is on the collection and uses of oil nationwide. It supported the bill, but was very concerned about the requirements for the unintentional production of dioxins and furans, and how New Zealand applied these within this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EGeocycle was particularly concerned about the development of national environmental standards, and, in fact, requested the Government to develop national environmental standards that provide for the use of waste and hazardous waste in the manufacture of cement and lime, saying that, where appropriate, environmental standards can be achieved. Geocycle went on to say that it would be very important for the Government to develop national guidelines for dioxin emissions under the Resource Management Act, because they are enforced variably, and there is a lack of consistency under Part 5, Annex C, of the bill before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E As we see in the commentary to this bill, one of the unfortunate parts of these deliberations is that because dioxins are a by-product of some combustion processes and not a substance used in those processes, they are not included in this bill. We are therefore left up in the air as to what the Government will do in terms of enforcing national environmental standards. I am sure that Sue Kedgley, from the Greens, will be deeply concerned about that particular issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe second submission came from Transpower New Zealand. Again, it is highly relevant, because Transpower wished to ensure that the provisions for the continued use of polychlorinated biphenyls\u2014which are critical to Transpower, and are under exemption for a specified period of time\u2014were accommodated by this bill. Transpower has in the order of $30 million of equipment that it hopes to phase out over 16 years. I am pleased to report to the Committee that most of Transpower\u2019s wishes were granted and accommodated within this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut because of this Labour Government\u2019s lack of attention to detail, the third submission, which came from the National Council of Women of New Zealand, has not been satisfactorily accommodated by this bill\u2014despite the willingness of the Opposition parties, which include the ACT party, New Zealand First, and National, to make very constructive amendments to try to sort out the problems. To give members an example, the point is made in the schedules that it is extremely important for there to be an international understanding regarding research, monitoring, and development of persistent organic pollutants. We pointed out that that the bill consistently refers to \u201Csmall-scale\u201D research, as does the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. All that would have been required was to have removed \u201Csmall-scale\u201D, and we would have had consistency and consensus, but the Government was just not willing to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe National Council of Women\u2019s submission pointed out how important research was to New Zealand. It pointed out that it was important both to have funding for research into the management and remediation of toxic waste, and to anticipate new ways to get rid of persistent organic pollutants, such as phytoremediation. My great concern is that despite pointing out to the Government that we could overcome the regulatory hurdles that this bill has imposed technically, this dilatory, and now inattentive, Labour Government has just failed to respond to the very constructive amendments of the Opposition parties. We believe that the environment is very important, and that international efforts such as this are very important\u2014as does the National Council of Women. It was very disappointing that the Government did not respond to the suggestions of the submitters, or of the Opposition parties, in these important, detailed areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAgain, I was concerned when with regard to Dr Lockwood Smith\u2019s very important amendment regarding the relevancy of clause 8, and his suggestion that research into persistent organic pollutants might be excluded by this bill, the Minister rose and said that members should look at clause 7, and that if one went back to the principal Act, it was actually tidied up by the wording there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c258dbfe26a64f0ab6aaf4f6bd1caa6c\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Was that clause 8?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022567da78c193d4901bf470216200768fd\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was clause 7 that he referred to. However, if one looks\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbf47a2a93324ae7ae4bf0f1a4d6092c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbf47a2a93324ae7ae4bf0f1a4d6092c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this sensible and overdue legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ENo one in the country will have missed the irony in the comments of the previous speaker who said that this has not been moved on fast enough. I just wonder why the National Government took no steps in this direction, when it was in power for 9 years. This bill is timely for two reasons. Firstly, it is timely because it restates our position as a responsible member of the international community, and for that reason we support the objectives of the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants. Secondly, in ratifying the convention, we are clearly stating that, by playing our part internationally, we are also helping to make New Zealand a cleaner and safer place for our residents and visitors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00221113bcf7c5684136b21bde13d3c18286\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221113bcf7c5684136b21bde13d3c18286\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First also supports this bill. The point has been made about the Government\u2019s delay in bringing the bill to this stage, and after the comments made by Clayton Cosgrove after my last third-reading speech, I intend to take my full 10 minutes on this occasion. If Labour Party members want to insult those members of the House who are trying to be cooperative\u2014especially when they speak after those members rather than before them\u2014they can expect the full treatment the next time they stand up. I therefore attribute and commend this speech to Clayton Cosgrove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E This bill has been long in gestation. During the Committee stage, I raised my concern with the Minister about the intention in Supplementary Order Paper 97 to insert new clause 4B, \u201CDelegation by Authority\u201D. Trying to understand where that clause fitted into the bill and into the Act of Parliament itself was something of a work of art. It would have taken about 30 seconds for the Minister in the chair to clarify it, but one Minister in the chair after another just sat there woodenly. Given that I got no response from any Minister in the chair on that matter, it was necessary for me to go through and have a look at the statute\u2014fortunately, I have some ability in that area\u2014and try to work it all out for myself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am concerned that that particular clause, and even the legislation itself, allows for a great degree of delegation to people who are not even members of the Environmental Risk Management Authority, and that those people who are not even employees can make decisions. If there is no employee with relevant experience, any other person with relevant experience can make decisions, in terms of clause 4B, which is inserted by Supplementary Order Paper 97 to amend section 19(2) of the principal Act\u2014which, in a long-winded sort of way\u2014inserts new paragraph (ca), which refers to section 97, relating to enforcement, inspection, and ancillary powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThose members of the Opposition who have tried to take a reasonable approach to urgency, and who ask a simple question, should be given some degree of respect by the Minister in the chair, otherwise, one is forced\u2014through one\u2019s own constitutional process as an Opposition MP\u2014to make a song and dance about the situation. On behalf of the people of New Zealand, one must find out what is intended by legislation, and have that contribution recorded, especially with legislation like this, which is brought in at a late stage during urgency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs previous members have said, this bill has been around for a long time, yet here we have something dated Tuesday, 1 July 2003 bringing effect to the legislation. Of course, today is still Tuesday, 1 July 2003\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8431b42fc4d43b4ab9fa9c6a22cc993\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: It is in that member\u2019s little world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246dd27077e794719bd1676f1824d84ad\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry? What did Mr Cosgrove say to extend my speech this time? He said nothing this time. Today is still Tuesday 1 July 2003 and here we are in urgency being required to debate and pass this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is only too pleased to make a contribution on this matter. We had meant to make a very short contribution, but if the Government will not play its part, by answering simple questions in the Committee stage, it makes a farce of the situation. If the Government insists on having urgency on something like this, surely it then has a responsibility to at least answer a simple question, thereby saving a whole lot of time and trouble, and speeding up the whole situation rather than delaying it. Instead, members have to go away and do their homework to discover that people who are not even members of the body itself can somehow have delegated powers to do various things. When one looks at section 97 of the principal Act, one sees it has various subsections, going from (a) through to (h), which relate to a wide variety of areas, including the Gas Act, land transport safety, the Commissioner of Police, civil aviation, marine safety, and the Resource Management Act, to name but a few. It is a shame that the Minister did not take the trouble to answer the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as the point raised by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith in the Committee stage is concerned, I was sufficiently concerned to have a look at it, but, in my mind, there seems to be some confusion as to whether it relates to clause 7 or clause 8 of the bill. If members do look at it, as I did, I believe they will find that the point raised by Dr the Hon Lockwood Smith is a valid one, and we may be coming back to this House again in the not too distant future to have the matter corrected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course, the Stockholm Convention, which is given effect by this bill, is still not international law. When the bill was introduced earlier on by Marian Hobbs, she said there were a number of countries\u2014numbering in the late forties\u2014that had ratified the convention, and that we needed 50 countries to ratify it before this bill could be regarded as international law. However, when the Minister spoke on it today, he said the number of countries required were in the thirties; perhaps if we wait for another 5 or 6 months the numbers will decrease even further. If we accept the words of Marian Hobbs, and then the words of Chris Carter, it seems to me that there is less and less international support for this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe point is that New Zealand has been doing this for many, many years, anyway. New Zealand First has continuing care and concern for the environment, and the type of materials that have been taken out of agricultural practice by this legislation have been out of good farming practice for some considerable time, anyway. A country like New Zealand does not really need conventions to tell it what to do. Most of the conventions relate to those countries that ought to be doing these things, but which never ratify the conventions, and so are never bound by them, whereas this Government is very, very keen on conventions, with this convention, for example, being a classic one in that it has not yet been accepted by international law, but it has been given effect in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThat is a practice of this Government that should be drawn to the attention of the country, and the same goes for the Kyoto Protocol, which has not yet been approved in international law either, and which is never likely to be. If we bear in mind that the Kyoto Protocol requires the ratification of 55 percent of those countries with carbon dioxide emissions who are party to it, and note that the United States and the Russian federation\u2014which, respectively, have 36 percent and 17 percent on their own\u2014both oppose it, we can see that it will never come into effect. However, that does not stop the Government from taxing farmers, and getting money from them on what are virtually false pretences in respect of international law. That is clearly the situation, but the Government is still pursuing these conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI think it is a good idea to have conventions brought to Parliament, and I know that Keith Locke will be delighted to see this process occurring. But there is another problem that arose in the Committee stage that should be drawn to the attention of the House, which is the fact that, although the convention itself is being approved by Parliament, any amendments that are made to the convention will be privately\u2014and, one might almost say, secretly\u2014approved by the Government by Order in Council, and will not be brought to Parliament. Successive Governments have established a process of bringing conventions to the House, and it is a great shame that the minority Labour Government has decided that amendments to this convention will not be brought to the House. That seems to be an inconsistent, poor, and unfortunate stand. It seems logical to me that if one brings a convention to the House, one should also bring any of the amendments to the convention to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOn the whole, with our longstanding regard for the environment, New Zealand First supports this legislation, and looks forward to its continuing implementation in the New Zealand scene. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a6d53e6866d8498c9ec9a8158ccd2d3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a6d53e6866d8498c9ec9a8158ccd2d3b\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to make a brief contribution to the third reading of this bill. As I said in my speech on the second reading, this bill was reported back from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee with largely uncontroversial changes. However, a Green Party member said that that was not the case, and that some of these things were very controversial. I think that reveals that the Green Party sees a lot more things as controversial than most others do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe debate has so far been very interesting. Some MPs have complained about how long this very basic legislation sat waiting for its time in this House, and to be passed into law. I have not yet heard anybody point out that the select committee in the last Parliament reviewed the Stockholm treaty, and reported to the House in February 2002. This legislation was then drafted from that report. The bill was introduced into the House in 2003, and had been going through its stages in a normal way until this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOthers in the debate have very eloquently tried to suggest that, because this legislation is based on a treaty, it is somehow a foreign takeover of our nation. I am afraid that even though they have been very eloquent in their argument, they have failed to convince me that there is any danger to us as a nation inherent in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOthers have asked why it is being rushed through in urgency, and that is something worth considering. To those outside this Chamber, all legislation is urgent. Some legislation, though, is more urgent than others, and I believe that those of us in this Chamber should remember that fact. To the people waiting for legislation to be passed through this House so that it can be enacted into law, every minute we waste in this House is of importance. When I first came to this Chamber last year, I was informed of the cost of delaying legislation in this Chamber: every 5 minutes costs somewhere in the region of $80,000, and that is of concern to the taxpayers of New Zealand. So when we make our speeches, it is important for us to remember that there is urgency in relation to all legislation; all legislation should go through in the most expeditious way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ENick Smith spoke of the importance of democracy and of debating all legislation, and I agree with him: it is important, and we should not rush things through without doing the job properly. However, the debate needs to be sensible. The public and taxpayers want robust debate, but we must focus on what we are debating about. There have been some very good contributions during this debate\u2014and I do not discount those, at all\u2014but if the public heard some of the contributions in this Committee stage, they would have wondered what on earth we are being paid to do in this Chamber. They would have been disappointed, because some of the contributions have simply been time-wasting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, some have said that this legislation is being rammed through the House. I only wish that were true! We can only hope that, in the future, legislation as straightforward and as simple as this will be passed through the House with a lot less fuss, so that we can get on to other things that are of huge importance. This bill had its first reading, and was then referred to the select committee, in February 2003. There were three submissions on this bill; the public have had a chance to have their say. Now, it is being passed through this House, and will finally be enacted into law, and that is something that United Future is pleased to give its support to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022c654d0d206b24dc48baa1285f287d3d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c654d0d206b24dc48baa1285f287d3d7\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E At this very late hour, before the evening dinner break, I rise with some considerable reluctance, but due to the lack of Government members wishing to make a contribution\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262540c4394ae418fbac9bb2cec56efc1\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am here on behalf of my colleague Ken Shirley, who has made a very substantial contribution to this bill. Mr Shirley, of course, as the whole House is aware, hopefully, is the only true scientist in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3605c9941fe4efabde198d2c08e4b74\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: What!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228472e36ec79b4d1b97c8d9014c364c01\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I see that Dr Lockwood Smith disputes that; certainly, there is no one on the Government side who could get within a bull\u2019s roar of Mr Shirley\u2019s knowledge of science. Unfortunately, he cannot complete his contribution, but I stand in for him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI was delighted to hear the contribution from Dr Paul Hutchison, who informed the House that the Government was not prepared actually to listen, or to accept any of the amendments put forward by the Opposition. This is a bill on which, by and large, there is a lot of unanimity. The House does accept that there is importance surrounding polychlorinated biphenyls, persistent organic pollutants, and other hazardous substances, and that there has to be regulation surrounding them. So why were those amendments not accepted, given that there is very, very profound knowledge of this matter on this side of the House? It is widely accepted, of course, that the Government does not have a mortgage on wisdom. It is with some disappointment that I note that Opposition amendments that were put forward in a very sensible way were not accepted by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe ACT party does agree that ratification of the Stockholm convention is an important contribution to the world environment, despite what I can only describe as the \u201Cchemophobia\u201D, the fear of chemicals, in this world today. That fear is exacerbated to a very large degree by the Green Party. Why do we ignore naturally occurring substances? Why they are not incorporated, along with polychlorinated biphenyls and persistent organic pollutants, is mystifying to me. The most toxic substance known to man is a naturally occurring\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb767f4c0bb14d75a26b6c71074fe488\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The ACT party!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bb96c75547c46e2ba9bfad4f2fbcd6a\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry\u2014known to man or woman. I do apologise to the honourable member. The most toxic substance known to humanity, shall we say, is a product that kills 4,000 people a year in Indonesia alone. It would seem to me that any reasonable international convention would include such a substance. I am not sure that members of this House even understand what that particular product is: it is a hugely toxic fungus that grows on, of all things, peanuts. It is amazing. At certain temperatures and certain levels of humidity that fungus, one of the most toxic carcinogens known to mankind, grows at a prolific rate and is hugely toxic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut there are also other examples that the Stockholm convention is ignoring. We know that tobacco, a naturally occurring substance\u2014I see that Mr Nandor Tanczos is very interested when I start mentioning these sorts of products\u2014is a hugely toxic substance. Inestimable numbers of people throughout the world die from that highly toxic substance. So why does the international convention not understand the significance of incorporating naturally occurring products along with man-made or woman-made\u2014I say that just to appease Ms Dalziel over there\u2014products?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThere is a whole raft of substances like tobacco. Alcohol is a toxic substance. What about cocaine? It is totally naturally occurring. I note that in New Zealand we have large numbers of people wanting to ban a highly toxic, naturally occurring substance called 1080 poison. Yet those things are not mentioned by the Stockholm convention. It mentions just polychlorinated biphenyls and persistent organic pollutants. Nicotine is, with regard to the insect world, a nerve gas. It is hugely effective. Of course, nicotine addiction is a huge problem for the human species. We have a problem in New Zealand in that we focus on some toxic substances and not others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe real problem, I think, is that we overlook the manufacture of dioxins in this country from landfills. How can we ignore the huge problem that that creates, when we have perfectly viable alternatives? I mention high-temperature incineration. Why does the Government not promote the use of high-temperature incineration to ensure that dioxins, which undoubtedly are very, very toxic to our environment, are lessened to a very, very large degree in our country? The Government has the opportunity to ensure that dioxins do not occur in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI also make the point that, with the best will in the world, mankind over the years has developed substances that we thought at the time were very, very advantageous to humanity. I can think of one product that has received huge attention over the years, and that caused major problems to pregnant women. That product is thalidomide. There were huge calls throughout the world to ban that highly toxic substance\u2014and it was highly toxic, but only to pregnant women. Now the world is starting to understand that thalidomide does have real medical advantages for certain conditions and certain people, and it is now being used again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI cannot help but wonder whether there is something of an overreaction to products like DDT. As I mentioned in an earlier speech\u2014I think it was my speech on the imports and exports legislation\u2014the banning of DDT, which is regarded as a hugely toxic substance, is actually killing millions of people a year, because we are not wiping out mosquitoes like we used to, and malaria kills millions of people a year. Yet the world, through the United Nations, has decided to ban DDT. We in this Parliament, with all sorts of securities, are making these kinds of judgments for other people who are going to die because we have decided, from our ivory tower in this country, that it is not appropriate for the Third World to be sprayed with these substances in order to give people there the opportunity to live.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI make one final point about toxic substances. Many years ago people were highly concerned about a substance that was contaminating water wells, and it was, of course, oil. It was considered a highly toxic substance at one time, then it was utilised by mankind, and it has contributed enormously. We are very concerned about nuclear power. Nuclear power in France generates, in round figures, 70 percent of its electricity needs, yet France, I am sure, is a signatory to this convention. What does it do with its toxic waste? There does appear to be some sort of double standard attached to some of these issues. Most chemicals that are man-made have in fact given huge advantages to the world in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00223de0380395dc4f24994d7226e27dd5c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223de0380395dc4f24994d7226e27dd5c9\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise to speak on the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill, and to follow a speaker from the ACT party, who was speaking about double standards. I say that ACT members would know all about that, considering that ACT is polling at below 5 percent. ACT is a party that said it would campaign on values, not politics, but when its members get into this House they want to make it a cafeteria. It is the ACT party that has nine votes in this House but only ever votes eight or less. It would know all about double standards. I think that member is excellently qualified to talk on that subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00227cefe2fbe7f845b28e0deff2dc6c26fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cefe2fbe7f845b28e0deff2dc6c26fa\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E We are now close to the final phase of this bill. Ahead of us lies a vote, the preparation of a fair copy of the legislation, the signature by the Governor-General, and the promulgation of this legislation upon the populace. National supports this legislation, but, of course, as members will know who have listened to this debate, we have significant reservations about at least two aspects of it. During the course of my remaining time I plan to deal with one of those reservations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe bill is a short bill with only 17 clauses in two parts. It has two schedules, one of which annexes an international treaty, the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, done at Stockholm on 23 May 2001. This legislation, together with certain amendments to the Imports and Exports (Restrictions) Amendment Bill, will enable New Zealand to ratify the Stockholm convention. The purpose of the convention is to protect human health and the environment from persistent organic pollutant chemicals. Those chemicals are identified in schedule 2 of the legislation as aldrin, chlordane, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex, toxaphene, polychlorinated biphenyls, and DDT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe bill is necessary because the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act, while providing a general framework for compliance with the Stockholm convention requirements, does not guarantee that prohibitions on the import, manufacture, and use of persistent organic pollutants will be put in place and maintained, as required by the convention. Thus this amendment is required to prohibit as a matter of course the import, the manufacture, and the use of the persistent organic pollutants listed in the convention. Each one of the identified chemicals has the characteristics of being environmentally persistent, toxic, bioacccumulative, and able to be transported by the movement of air, water, and migratory species to places far from its original point of release. With the exception of small quantities of polychlorinated biphenyls still in use by the electrical sector in New Zealand, and subject to a regulated phase-out timetable, New Zealand basically does not use these toxic and bioaccumulative chemicals and has no need of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? It ratifies the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, or at least permits that possibility. It bans the importation, manufacture, and use of persistent organic pollutants except in particular circumstances. New Zealand must be able to use persistent organic pollutants in limited circumstances for disease vector control, research and development, environmentally sound disposal, and trans-shipment. For example, DDT is shipped to the Pacific Islands for mosquito control. The bill provides for all these uses with oversight by the Environmental Risk Management Authority. [Interruption] I say to Mr Benson-Pope, who is attempting to interject, that there was an idea to ban outright DDT in New Zealand, but the right decision was made to retain it as a weapon of last resort in any war on malaria-carrying mosquitoes. As I said, all the persistent organic pollutants banned by the Stockholm convention have already been phased out of use in New Zealand, except for polychlorinated biphenyls, which are already regulated and will be phased out in 2016.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about an issue that I have spoken about earlier today, and it relates to the definition of \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D. For members opposite, clause 4 of the bill as reported back from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee is the relevant clause for them to read. I am grateful to see members shuffling their papers to turn to that page so that they can follow closely the intricacies of this argument. [Interruption] I plan to speak slowly because, as we all know, the intellectual capability of some members, including one member in particular who I am currently looking at, are quite limited. It is proper that he have an opportunity to follow these issues in a broad and easy way. I have taken from his constant interruptions that he is struggling with some of the issues in this bill. It is not for me to enlighten him, but it will be helpful, perhaps, if I at least give him an opportunity of understanding the issues that arise. So I turn to the definition of \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffcafd06df894bbba4704b7f72499f02\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: For goodness\u2019 sake, this is the third reading!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eef82833b36a4fee9ba17d551bb94933\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: As the member opposite said, this is the third reading. That is a good comment for her to make. It is an insightful comment, and she is right. Clever her to note that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe point about this definition is that it includes the clear possibility that if there are later changes to the Stockholm convention, those changes, as a matter of law, will pass into the domestic law of New Zealand. That surely cannot be intended. Schedule 1 contains the treaty. Although there may be many illustrations of this aspect, I shall note just one such illustration, in article 18. There is work yet to be done to bring this treaty to its final form. That is because, in respect of a dispute mechanism possibility in article 18, there is reference to arbitration \u201Cin accordance with procedures to be adopted by the Conference of the Parties in an annex as soon as practicable;\u201D. So further work is to be done. When that conference of the parties occurs to do that work, we in New Zealand will have no control over an outcome that will see the embellishment of that multilateral instrument, then its passage into domestic law in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe have dealt with this issue of secondary legislation, and also tertiary legislation. It is the old problem of incorporation by reference. But here the Government in its wisdom, one assumes through ignorance or oversight, has failed to deal with a possibility that in constitutional terms is quite significant. There exists the possibility of wholesale changes by protocol, by side letters; of a new arrangement or modification of the treaty that would see substantial changes that New Zealanders would have no opportunity to deal with, but would have to bear the brunt of. That can surely not be satisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is a printing error, which members opposite will have observed, in schedule 2, on page 60. It may well be that the opportunity should be taken to correct that error, rather than it simply passing into the legislation. I refer to schedule 2A, and the column headings in that schedule. They are \u201CSubstance\u201D \u201CUse or storage\u201D, then, in what seems to be a misprint, \u201CManufacture Expiry of permitted use or storage\u201D. If one looks down the column one sees that the heading is an error. What the economic consequences of that may be, who can say? But the error persists, and one imagines it may have a consequence in later times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00226afa05e829044ee6970ed7aaa7f62152\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226afa05e829044ee6970ed7aaa7f62152\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E It is a pleasure to follow the erudite constitutional lawyer opposite who, I am pleased to say, has given his support to the bill. I find it very interesting that the bill has been before the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which looked at the convention and found that there were no significant reasons, advantageous or disadvantageous, why New Zealand should not ratify it. For those reasons I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002271d6274d9f40443198ab8457ad27dbaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271d6274d9f40443198ab8457ad27dbaa\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E That short speech from that Government member is a good example of the problem we have had today with this legislation and its passage through the House. Earlier on today, in the second reading, I told the House that National would be supporting this legislation, and we do support it. It is important legislation. However, the way it has been handled by Parliament, in the select committee and in the Committee stage, has been inadequate. The processes that have been applied to this legislation have been absolutely inadequate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to share with the House just three things in particular in relation to the bill, in its third reading. The first one is not major. During the Committee stage it was pointed out that the purpose of the bill, as spelt out in clause 3, is not strictly correct. Clause 3 states: \u201CThe purpose of this Act is to enable New Zealand to comply with the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants.\u201D The bill does not do that. No one can claim that it does that. In fact, very clearly, it does not do that. As we all know, sister legislation that we have been working on today is necessary to help us comply with that Stockholm convention. This bill does not do that. It is not a big issue, but it is careless law to make a statement in the purpose clause of a bill that is wrong. It is simply careless law drafting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBut that is not the biggest problem with the bill. Again, I come back to the careless way in which a quite simple bill has been handled. Quite a while back, the Regulations Review Committee of Parliament had a look at the bill because of its regulatory implications. That committee raised with the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, which was examining the bill, its concern that\u2014to use the words of the report of the select committee\u2014amendments to the Stockholm convention could apply automatically in New Zealand\u2019s domestic law, if this bill was not amended. That is a serious issue. My colleague Richard Worth has just referred to that. I cannot think of any other legislation that I am familiar with whereby decisions that are made elsewhere and that New Zealand may not even agree with become part of our law. Where a country is party to a convention such as the Stockholm convention, it only takes the agreement of a certain number of the parties to that convention for it to be amended. Those changes could be made off shore, somewhere in another country. The Regulations Review Committee was concerned that those changes would then apply in New Zealand domestic law without this Parliament, or even the Government of New Zealand, being able to do anything about that. Sure, the Government may have been involved in discussions about changes to the Stockholm convention, but it may not have agreed to the changes. But, from the way this legislation is drafted, they will apply in New Zealand law. Members of this House have to be concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe select committee was advised of that issue by the Regulations Review Committee at the end of the process of our looking at the bill. I remember it well. I expressed my concern to the chair of the committee, saying that I was not convinced that we had dealt with the concerns of the Regulations Review Committee. If members read our report, they will see that our response is almost inept. Sadly, I was away when the report was finalised. However, in response to the Regulations Review Committee saying it was concerned that amendments to the convention may apply automatically in New Zealand\u2019s domestic law, and therefore proposing an amendment to the definition of \u201CStockholm Convention\u201D, the select committee said\u2014and I am quoting directly here\u2014\u201CRather than amend this definition, we have substituted a new definition of environmentally sound disposal so that the rules about disposal are set by ERMA, rather than being set directly by the Convention.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is almost an inept response to the concern raised by the Regulations Review Committee. There is nothing wrong with what the select committee did there. There is nothing wrong with the amendment the select committee recommended that we add a new definition of \u201Cenvironmentally sound disposal\u201D, so that rules for disposal can be set by the Environmental Risk Management Authority. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does not address the concern raised by the Regulations Review Committee. One has only to read what I have quoted to the House to see that it does not address the concern raised with the select committee by the Regulations Review Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EIn my view, the first problem was that the select committee did not deal with the legislation seriously enough. The select committee did not engage with the concern raised by the Regulations Review Committee, and the way we have handled it in our report back to Parliament shows that we did not understand the issue properly at all. The rest of the process has resulted in what I think is unsatisfactory legislation going through on an important issue that we support. The way in which the bill is worded is unsatisfactory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOf course, the process involved now is urgency in this Parliament; the Committee stage is being dealt with in urgency. I think the Minister in the chair was aware of the problem and understood it, but felt that it was not possible to deal with such a complex problem today under urgency in this Parliament, during the Committee stage of the bill. That is no way to handle legislation as important as this. This legislation involves putting international obligations in our domestic law, and the way to deal with that is not simply to say that, OK, it may not be right, it may be that any changes to the Stockholm convention will automatically become part of our domestic law and we may not be able to do anything about it, but because we are debating the Committee stage under urgency we cannot do anything about it. The bill has gone through two bad processes. The select committee process was inadequate, and the Committee stage being heard in urgency was also inadequate. That means that faulty law will go through this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMy final concern is about clause 8. Everyone knows that research is being conducted on persistent organic pollutants to improve their handling and disposal, because they are going to be around for a while yet, despite this legislation. It will be 2016 before polychlorinated biphenyls go, and research on how best to dispose of them is important. I point out to the House that, from my reading of clause 8, it makes it impossible for research to be carried out on persistent organic pollutants. That seems to be exactly the opposite from what was intended. When I asked the Minister to explain to the House why I was wrong in my reading of the bill, the Minister could not do that. The dilemma is that if the face of the legislation is so obtuse that it conveys the wrong meaning, then there is a real problem with the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAlthough National supports the bill, we are saddened that its wording is sloppy and inadequate, and that is not good enough. When Parliament passes legislation as important as this, the wording should be more properly and soundly thought through. We support the bill, but are not happy with some of the detail of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d46b5e52c7b44596a6062661065b49a2\u0022\u003ERetirement Villages Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d6ee8148b63c420eb2f1dd8e71e8f677\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002229ec1cb7594b43c7bd2dd97fac619a38\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229ec1cb7594b43c7bd2dd97fac619a38\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Justice): \u003C/span\u003EI move, That the Retirement Villages Bill be now read a second time. This bill addresses the situation that I began to address when I was Minister for Senior Citizens. Although the bill was properly that of the Minister of Justice, and was then delegated to me as an Associate Minister of Justice, I was very grateful that the Prime Minister delegated the role to me early on, so that it could be given a priority that the bill could not get against a significant number of other justice bills. I have now gained the Prime Minister\u2019s agreement to refer other bills to other population and advocacy Ministers, so that priority can be accorded work in those areas. That is a very good model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAt the outset I express my appreciation of the work of the Justice and Electoral Committee for the comprehensive and thorough consideration it has given to the bill, and for the careful thought that the majority of members obviously gave to changes that will improve the bill. This bill is much better as a result of the consideration of the select committee than when first introduced to Parliament. I am particularly pleased with the work of the Government members of the select committee, and I congratulate Tim Barnett on his chairing of it. I also acknowledge Murray Smith from United Future, who has made a significant contribution to the better bill that we have before us today. On that note, I also congratulate Stephen Franks and thank him for his contribution to the legislation. Although noting the report that the ACT party will not be supporting the passage of the bill, I did note that Stephen Franks was prepared to make a professional effort to ensure that the bill was in the best possible shape for return to the House, and I thought it would be appropriate to acknowledge that here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIt would also be remiss of me not to mention the Law Commission, whose report, of course, was made to a former National Minister of Justice back in 1999. The Law Commission played an important role in giving some impetus to the development of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ERetirement villages have become more popular over the years\u2014I guess for lifestyle reasons, but also, more important, for security. However, the nature of the transaction that brings an individual into a retirement village has caused many retirement village residents and their families considerable grief, if my correspondence file is anything to go by. I know the select committee heard many submissions that contained examples of the kinds of misunderstandings that arise when the nature of the transaction is not understood. I came up with a simple expression, so I could engage in discussion at large meetings on this subject, where misunderstanding was very widespread: investing in a retirement village does not mean buying a home that one can sell. That is the simplest way to describe the nature of the transaction. The significance of the capital outlay, though, that is made at the time is very easily equated with the amount that one would spend on an apartment, and that often leads to an assumption that occupiers are protected in the same way as homeowners. However, in fact, most people receive only a licence to occupy the premises, and for access to the facilities and services of the village. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn the absence of more specific legislation, the situation of people moving into retirement villages was left to the Securities Act and its regulations, whereby the financial outlay was identified and treated as an investment only. However, there have been difficulties as to the coverage of that Act with regard to those villages that offer unit titles in addition to a licence to occupy, and with regard to others that were exempt from that Act. In addition, securities law is actually an inappropriate mechanism to address the social dimensions of retirement village living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill addresses both the investment and social policy considerations that apply to buying into, and living in, a retirement village. It responds to the very many letters of complaint I have received as Minister for Senior Citizens from people concerned about certain aspects of retirement village living, including complaints about the way that villages are financed and the charges that are applied. In some cases, the concern was about the way that villages are run. In many instances, the concerns raised showed a lack of understanding by their writers of the terms and conditions that they had, in fact, agreed to when they signed up to enter a retirement village. But in a considerable number of cases, they indicated an imbalance of power between the parties, and the unfair way that residents were treated. This bill addresses the needs of residents and owners through measures that will ensure a balance in the responsibilities and obligations of residents and owners, and that will establish quality practices in the way that village operations are managed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe measures in the bill, however, will not restrict the variety and diversity that is part of the retirement village scene in New Zealand. Nor do I believe this legislation will diminish the growing popularity of retirement village living as a lifestyle choice. Some 20,000 older New Zealanders have already chosen to live in a retirement village, and that number is increasing. To the contrary, I believe that by according much better protection to both the financing and occupancy aspects of retirement village living, this legislation will enhance the attractiveness of retirement villages. As long as people understand what they are signing up to, then many of the concerns will diminish. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe definition of a retirement village in this bill is wide and inclusive. Housing that might be caught inadvertently by that broad definition can be excluded by regulation. In the bill there is an emphasis on disclosure. That will ensure that people who are considering entering a retirement village do so fully aware of the terms and conditions that would apply to them\u2014and, of course, there is a cooling-off period contained within the bill, as well. A very important and preventive measure, I guess, is what disclosure focuses on, and that is fully consistent with the approach to securities generally. The suggestion of the select committee that disclosure be further enhanced by legal advice and certification by a legal adviser that the terms and conditions have been adequately explained is one that I accept, bearing in mind the age, and sometimes the vulnerability, of the people who enter villages. I also agree with the committee\u2019s suggestion that the essential requirements of the disclosure statement be outlined in the bill itself, instead of relying totally on regulation. Good practice in the management of relationships between residents and operators is achieved by a code of residents\u2019 rights that summarises the key provisions of the bill, as they impact on the day-to-day responsibilities of village residents and village operators to each other. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EProcesses for dealing with complaints and disputes are addressed in the bill in a comprehensive way, so as to promote harmony within villages. A good complaints system can deal with issues in an appropriate way, before they become big issues. For those complaints that do involve more material matters, there is a formalised disputes resolution process that will ensure that disputes are resolved at the appropriate level and remedies are applied, if necessary. The disputes resolution procedure is prescribed in some detail, in order to ensure the fairness and robustness of the process. I expect that having a good process will significantly reduce the need to use it. The bill provides for a degree of external oversight, and also the concept of statutory supervisors has been adapted to meet the specific needs of the retirement village sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMany members of the House are aware from constituents\u2019 concerns that the greatest source of concern to residents and to families, after a village resident has left or died, is that there is no real incentive for the prompt sale of a vacated unit. I am very pleased that the select committee has suggested a more rigorous process and better alignment of incentives in that important respect. In relation to the code of practice, I can report to the House that the Retirement Villages Association is already working on it, and I look forward to working with the association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis bill is eagerly awaited by many people in retirement villages, who until now have felt quite powerless and frustrated in terms of the way they have been treated. I particularly want to thank Grey Power, the Retirement Villages Association\u2014and, in particular, I mention Helen Melrose and Cliff Cook\u2014and a Christchurch solicitor, Leo Steele, who not only offered his knowledge and expertise to the select committee but devoted a considerable amount of his personal time to getting this Minister up to speed with the intricacies of securities law, licences to occupy, unit titles, and all the permutations that form the complex legal framework of the retirement villages industry. I thank also the Office for Senior Citizens, without whose help and support this progress would not have been made. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00229391371353c7496ba7ce521420672bd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229391371353c7496ba7ce521420672bd1\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (NZ National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will be supporting this bill, for several reasons. Before I entered Parliament, as a geriatrician I had worked extensively with older people. Retirement villages have been a huge growth industry in New Zealand over the last 10 or 15 years. During that time we have seen quite marked changes: people no longer drove to the door of rest homes in their car; they usually arrived in ambulances. People stayed at home over the 1990s, because National had put a lot of money into home support services. But for a growing number of older people the opportunity to move into a retirement village, which took away some of the stresses and strains of life\u2014not having to do upkeep on their building any more, not having to look after the grounds, and having companionship and people of like mind around them\u2014became a very attractive option. We now have 300 villages, but the Law Commission work, which was reported on in 1999, stated that there needed to be one legal system that retirement villages operated under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen I came to Parliament I developed a member\u2019s bill on this topic. That is the one thing that, as an individual MP, one can do. That bill was in the ballot, and it did put pressure on this Government to get ahead of the game and to develop this bill. That is actually why we are here tonight and are able to debate this matter. It would have been very embarrassing, after all the promises the Government had made, if my bill had been drawn out of the ballot first. So we have seen this legislation, which Lianne Dalziel admitted needed to be quite markedly altered during the work done in the Justice and Electoral Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI would like to thank Simon Power, Lindsay Tisch, and Richard Worth, all of whom the Minister forgot to mention when she said how hard the committee had worked on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022095692d6b5a244bab18f7bc7b63d3d0c\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: It was uncharitable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b018438624d547b5b4d5d716b522826f\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: It was very uncharitable of her. Stephen Franks also put in a great deal of work. I do not think that the committee as it was first comprised grappled with the bill particularly well, but with the addition to the committee of some excellent members from the Opposition side of the House we have ended up with a fairly comprehensive bill that will solve some of the problems within the sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EMost retirement villages are excellent. They run a very good service, and supply a great standard and lifestyle for their residents. But when I first put my member\u2019s bill into the ballot and it attracted some television exposure, a huge number of people wrote to me with their concerns. I remember the case of one 92-year-old gentleman, who had moved into a village and was very unhappy there. He found it extremely difficult to get out. If it had not been that his family was able to buy another property for him to move into, he would not have been able to move from what he found to be a pretty intolerable situation. Disputes that can cause major problems for residents happen not only with the people who own and operate the villages but also with other residents, so a disputes resolution process is something that is needed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Retirement Villages Association has done an excellent job. Cliff Cook has put a lot of work into this legislation. The members of that association have excellent standards. They have statutory supervision, and they ensure they have disputes resolution processes and prudential supervision, as well. It is only those villages that stand outside the actual\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d79ee5391d774151bfa32a846fabbd8e\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Aren\u2019t you a member? will you declare your conflict of interest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228689a2afe09a48c7b762598d07924c75\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not. The Minister needs to be better informed; she continually makes chipping comments about things that she knows nothing about. She should get herself informed. The Retirement Villages Association has done a very good job. The problems have occurred only with the maybe 5 percent of villages that operate outside the association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI remember a case where a person who had developed a Wellington village moved into the village when the residents became unhappy. He actually took over the residents committee, so that he could complain to himself\u2014or not complain to himself, as the case may be. That was an abuse of his position and his power, and the residents came to me to debate the issues. They needed legislation to work under. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen people buy into a village, they often do not understand the situation. They are not buying an independent unit down the road; they are buying, basically, a lifestyle. They are buying a licence to occupy and the lifestyle that the village offers, with its increased security, its protection, the lack of worry about maintenance and the upkeep of the grounds, and the companionship of other residents. Those are the things that people are buying when they buy into a retirement village, as opposed to buying an independent freehold unit down the road. There has been a lot of confusion about that when somebody has wanted to leave a village, and that is where most of the problems have occurred. There are quite large financial penalties if a person wants to leave after a short time. One of the things this bill does is to provide for a cooling-off period of 15 working days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI remember that one gentleman whose wife had died moved into a village once the funeral was over. He was quite a fit, extremely active 74-year-old\u2014that happens to be the average age at which people move into retirement villages\u2014but he was very disturbed by the death of his wife, and was feeling very low at the time. Moving into a retirement village was not really the right thing for him to do, and when he recovered and got over the stress and the grief\u2014he was an extremely active person\u2014he found it quite difficult to make the decision to leave the village, because he was penalised financially by the clauses he had signed up to. In some cases, lawyers have not given people a full understanding of what they are buying into. Consequently, there has been a lot of confusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EOne of the things the bill requires is that retirement villages supply a disclosure statement, which is supposed to be in plain language, so that anybody buying into such a village actually knows what they are buying into and how it will work. Also, the villages are required to have statutory supervision, because sometimes people have not understood that although the individual\u2019s interests and rights need to be protected, the village as a whole needs to be considered, as well. It is important that the village can survive financially as a whole, and while one individual may want certain things, that wider issue needs to be taken into account. There was a lot of debate from Grey Power, in particular, about what happens when people leave a village\u2014about who can sell a unit, and how long the ongoing costs have to be paid by the estate of somebody who has died. Those issues have been taken into account in this bill. The bill sets up a disputes resolution process and a code of rights for villages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI have been somewhat concerned that the bill defines retirement villages as premises containing two or more residential units. There will be increased costs associated with this legislation. I think it will impose some quite significant costs on the smaller villages, and that that should have been taken into account. I certainly would have liked to see villages with up to six units\u2014often they are attached to church properties\u2014being exempt under this legislation, but that has not happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAlso, some retirement villages have residential care facilities within them\u2014rest homes and geriatric hospitals. There has been quite a lot of cross-subsidisation, because this Government has not increased by one dollar the amount of money that goes to geriatric hospitals, which give the highest level of care to our elderly. A lot of retirement villages are making some money from that particular part of their operations. They have been able to cross-subsidise the hospital and rest home sector, which is unfortunate, because that sector should be funded adequately to be able to provide that level of care. I remember many years ago my grandmother went into a retirement village, then the rest home, and then the hospital. It was excellent for her not to have to leave an environment that she knew. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe support this bill, and are pleased to see it in the House tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff97d718870940f5b5aee741034a23c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff97d718870940f5b5aee741034a23c4\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Jackson Mews is a small retirement village located in Petone. It comprises 34 units, all of which are unit-titled and in individual ownership. The village was created in 1994 by one John Gilbert, effectively as a retirement fund. His company, Jackson Mews Management Ltd, is appointed under the terms of an encumbrance that he, as manager, put on all the titles for a period of 40 years. It is secured by the encumbrance, and all residents and new purchasers must sign up to that contract, which gives him the exclusive right to manage the village. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn return for that right, which residents pay $3,000 per year for, John Gilbert receives $94,000 per annum from the village. In order to justify that, he provides\u2014or is meant to provide\u2014a 24-hour personal paging service by a resident manager, the maintenance and upkeep of the exteriors and common areas, the collection of prescriptions for the elderly people who occupy the village, the payment of rates for a few of the units, and the payment of the insurance. My calculations are that after employing the manager at $31,000\u2014and I must say that $10,500 of that goes back to Mr Gilbert by way of rental for the unit that the manager occupies, but I will leave that aside\u2014the village costs Mr Gilbert $44,000 a year, leaving a profit of $50,000 a year from the residents for the convenience of having him oversee the village.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E The residents accept that; they have gone into the village with their eyes open. Many are elderly, and need the personal paging service that Mr Gilbert provides. If Mr Gilbert\u2019s company was faithfully fulfilling the agreement there would be no problem; the difficulty is that it does not. The residents have a list of complaints of inadequacies in Mr Gilbert\u2019s fulfilling of his side of the bargain: a lack of maintenance, a lack of mowing of lawns, the failure to replace plants and bark although that was promised 2 years ago, no maintenance schedule to cover exterior painting or clearing of gutters\u2014all of which are overdue\u2014the failure to pay for repairs caused by leaking windows and water tanks, the lack of coverage for the resident caretaker when he is absent by way of illness or holidays, the investment of some of the corporate body funds in Jackson Mews Management Ltd without authority, and a failure to provide audited accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe residents have long tried to contact Mr Gilbert and lay their complaints; they have written to him and tried to get some answers. Mr Gilbert is a hard-headed businessman. The complaints of the residents are that he has bullied and threatened elderly residents, and has refused to answer their correspondence. One of them described John Gilbert at a meeting 2 weeks ago by saying he walks all over them and does as he pleases. They have tried to sue him, but there is an arbitration provision that requires it to go to arbitration, and when they did that the arbitration was drawn out. There was a dispute as to whether the body corporate\u2019s disputes were different from the residents\u2019 disputes, and the outcome of the arbitration was that they had to be separated. The costs to the residents meant that they simply could not afford to pursue the matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe manager has taken Mr Gilbert to the Employment Relations Authority, because I understand that he is owed $7,000 that has not been paid. He has recently gone into hospital for a spinal operation that needed 3 days in hospital for the operation and 5 to 6 weeks for his convalescence.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn his conversations with the manager, Mr Gilbert refused to accept that the manager should be off work for more than the 3 days in hospital, but now, having taken some advice, the manager has told Mr Gilbert that he must be off work for 5 to 6 weeks. Currently there are difficulties in having the manager\u2019s position filled while he is away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EHow will this bill help the Jackson Mews residents? In a number of ways they will be extremely helped by this legislation. Firstly, a statutory supervisor will have to be appointed. Under clause 37 the statutory supervisor will be appointed, at the expense of Jackson Mews Management Ltd, to look after the interests of the residents and to ensure under clause 38 that the financial position of the retirement village remains secure. The statutory supervisor will report annually to the Registrar of Companies and to the residents on the performance of the operator\u2019s duties and exercise of its powers. The statutory supervisor will perform any other duties imposed by the legislation. The statutory supervisor will have considerable powers. If he or she believes that the financial position of the retirement village, the security of the interests of the residents, or, notably the management of the retirement village is inadequate, the statutory supervisor may direct the operator to supply all residents with information that he or she may specify. The statutory supervisor may direct the operator to operate the retirement village in a specified manner, or he or she could apply to the court under section 49 of the Securities Act, which could lead to the putting of the retirement village into receivership or management, or to the imposing of restrictions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003ESo the statutory supervisor has considerable power to step in where there is a situation like the example I have given, to ensure that the residents of the village receive the services they have contracted to receive. I am pleased to say that, effectively, the costs of the statutory supervisor with regard to Jackson Mews will not be passed on to the residents. Under the terms of the contract, the operator is entitled only to a consumer price index increase each year, so any costs of the statutory supervisor will come off the $50,000 that John Gilbert is pocketing each year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003ESecondly, there is a complaints facility provided in the bill. Mr Gilbert will have to have somebody who can respond to complaints, and if that person does not respond within 20 working days after a dispute notice is provided, then the operator will have to provide a panel of one or more independent persons who have been sanctioned by the Office for Senior Citizens to resolve the complaints. Again, that is at the operator\u2019s expense\u2014in the case of Jackson Mews, Mr Gilbert. There is provision for hearings before the disputes panel, and it has a wide power to make orders. The operator is responsible for meeting all the costs incurred under clause 53, and even for costs incurred in resolving disputes between residents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI plan to introduce a Supplementary Order Paper during the Committee stage of the debate on this bill, to strengthen the statutory supervisor\u2019s responsibilities even more. It seems to me that the statutory supervisor should be notified where there is a dispute that affects a significant number of residents or the general operation of the retirement village, where the outcome may affect the rights and obligations of the operator under the deed of supervision that he has with the statutory supervisor, or where there is a dispute concerning the disposal of a residential unit. I think those strengths are necessary so that the statutory supervisor is well aware of what is happening in a village, particularly in so far as the residents\u2019 interests are concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EHowever, I am also pleased to say that this legislation has been effective even before it has been passed. Today I met with Mr Gilbert and his lawyer in my office, and finally succeeded in getting him and his lawyer to talk to me about the problems at Jackson Mews and to agree to a meeting with the residents to sort the problems out. That will happen in a few weeks\u2019 time. I received an ongoing commitment from Mr Gilbert to accept monthly reports and to respond within 7 days to any written complaints that are made to him. I indicated to him that it would be worth his while to do that, because if he can sort these things out before the statutory supervisor is appointed it will save him a great deal of money in terms of the cost if a disputes panel has to be brought in at his expense to resolve the ongoing grievances. If Mr Gilbert does not restore his goodwill with the residents of Jackson Mews, it will prove to be very expensive to him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003ESo I think this is an excellent bill, and I look forward to advising the House in future of progress as we endeavour to resolve the problems concerning Jackson Mews. I endorse this bill, and say United Future will certainly support it through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00226f73877c29e74c9789e9e416784ea098\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f73877c29e74c9789e9e416784ea098\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As the New Zealand First member on the Justice and Electoral Committee I would like to express the thanks of New Zealand First to the staff and the officials. From my previous experience on select committees, all I can say is that the staff and the officials on this select committee worked harder than I have ever known officials and staff to work before. This was relatively straightforward legislation, and now I think it is gold-plated legislation. We have covered just about every full stop, comma, and the like, that one could possibly dream of. I know that members still wish to make further amendments to it, and good on them. It was a very interesting exercise. We finally got something out of the select committee. Of course it was made more difficult by the fact that we had a snap election and it was necessary to go over things a second time. I would like to thank those submitters who had to come back to the select committee for a second time, for the time and trouble they gave, and the assistance they gave us in putting everything together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as Mr Smith\u2019s example is concerned\u2014obviously I do not know all the facts, but I assume the other party\u2019s lawyer will be looking at clause 6, where it states: \u201C(3) For the avoidance of doubt, the following are not retirement villages for the purposes of this Act: (b) residential units registered under the Unit Titles Act 1972\u201D\u2014and I understand that it was a Unit Titles Act residential unit he was talking about\u2014\u201Cor owner-occupied cross-lease residential units that in either case do not provide services or facilities to their occupants beyond those commonly provided by\u2014(i) similar residential units; or (ii) residential units occupied under tenancies to which the Residential Tenancies Act 1986 applies:\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI would be interested to know just how those units come within the category as regards the services, and whether the lawyer for the owner decides that the best solution is to cancel the services contract, and then the older people might be worse off than when they started. However, I just say that in passing with just the slimmest knowledge of what is going on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as the legislation is concerned, I and many other lawyers who are involved in property practice have some experience with the documentation relating to retirement villages. We quite often have people in their late 60s and early 70s who sell their home\u2014and married couples; not just widows or widowers\u2014who decide that the time has come for them to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E Often they do not make that decision until they are about 80 or 81 years of age. Then a lawyer\u2014and there has been some criticism of lawyers here\u2014has to try to explain complicated documents to people who have only one ambition at that particular time, and that is to move out of their home and get into the retirement village. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen a lawyer tries to explain the documents to people, they accuse the lawyer of being a busybody who wants to spend far too much time on the documentation and who is going to charge them an exorbitant amount to try to tell them what the document says and what they are letting themselves into. In this day and age of conveyancing, when lawyers are told they have to charge as little as possible but have all the liability if things go wrong, they are placed in a very invidious position. Often the son, the daughter, or the son and the daughter-in-law, come with the elderly people, and the lawyer ends up telling them more than he or she tells the elderly people, but the lawyer always has to realise that it is the elderly people who are the clients. Of course, when things go wrong, often the elderly people have forgotten they even went to see a lawyer, let alone that they signed anything, and the lawyer virtually has to point out the document to them 10 years later and say: \u201CLook, there\u2019s your signature.\u201D They say: \u201CWho are you?\u201D. They often cannot remember that they came to see a lawyer to sign the form. It is difficult, but I think the Retirement Villages Bill is a very good idea. It is an excellent idea. New Zealand First supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220de459fbd2d24ddf8d82c2021a8234e6\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6d22fa034be4dee95ed658806a2eeb4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It is; it is an advantage to lawyers. This type of legislation is a protection for lawyers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221edca95620204ae5980f50d8e931f417\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: They need protecting, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d28576f095b48d6906f317e9710f6dd\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The lawyers need protection. We need it more than anybody else, especially from other lawyers sometimes. The bill sets out a procedure that must be followed. The lawyer has to say to people: \u201CLook, you have to come and see a lawyer to get advice, and I have to give you this advice. The law says so.\u201D Of course, many people will still not believe the lawyer, even if the person is a lawyer and is supposed to know the law. That is just a fact of life. But the bill now sets it out, so that there is a statutory way of going through the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fed722f5509d43cb855240b54e164c13\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The disclosure document will help.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b089c96315ba4e88a234b0a0bf8c874e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. It should be made clear at the beginning that we are talking about\u2014if I could put it in a loose way, a simple way\u2014properties that people actually own, and have a licence to occupy. We are not talking about rest homes where people just go to live and are cared for, and they pay rent or the social welfare department makes a contribution, and suchlike. We are talking about retirement villages where people have a form of ownership, regardless of what it is called. So that should be borne in mind. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI think it is important to make it clear that the changes made in the select committee included kaum\u0101tua flats as coming within retirement villages. We felt, and we recommended in the select committee, that kaum\u0101tua flats should be included in the definition of a retirement village and that the clause excluding them should be deleted. The bill as drafted contains a specific exemption for kaum\u0101tua flats, which could have created a loophole for operators attempting to evade complying with the provisions of the bill. If kaum\u0101tua flats are specifically excluded, we are aware of the possibility that some operators might avoid compliance by establishing a complex that in form and substance is a retirement village, as defined in the bill, but that also in form meets the definition of a kaum\u0101tua flat. So we felt it was important to make that change, to make it clear to any people going into kaum\u0101tua flats that the key distinction is, if they own it and if it is theirs, then it is going to be a retirement village and those rules will apply. But if it is like a residence where people are paying rent and suchlike, it is more likely that they are in a rest home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course, the usual M\u0101ori type of kaum\u0101tua village that might be around a marae complex, where the occupants do not own the property they are occupying, can still be a kaum\u0101tua village in the ordinary way. The distinction is whether they own it. If they are merely renting it on the marae, or about the marae, then it can be a kaum\u0101tua flat in that area, and this Retirement Villages Bill will not apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as other aspects of the bill are concerned, we have set out a code of residents rights, and they are quite detailed. I should mention that we have also set out some residents\u2019 obligations. Someone mentioned the instance of an elderly gentleman who moves into a village, but perhaps he cannot get on with people. It is a two-way street. The select committee did recognise that people have to give and take, and there is a code of obligations as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe have set out a disputes resolution process, and I think it is almost the best aspect of the bill. A low-level process is established, where people can try to sort something out without getting too formal about it. Too often if we have the type of process in the bill as it was, it starts to get too formal, people get too carried away, and then we always get someone who wants to do things by the book, and all sorts of problems arise. There is a less formal way of doing it; there is a more formal way of doing it. If people really want to go to town, they can appeal to the District Court or, instead of doing it through the disputes panel, they can go directly to the District Court as well. But one would hope that all these types of problems will be resolved by the lower-level procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis is a very big bill. I believe that it sets out a very good code for all of those people who are in a position to buy a property and move into a retirement village. I will be looking forward to its progress. New Zealand First supports the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c8eeff1d9fa84fabb33d84e775a39177\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c8eeff1d9fa84fabb33d84e775a39177\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the bill. There are about 15,000 units in New Zealand, housing 26,000 people. These numbers are increasing by 5 percent a year, so we have over 350 retirement villages. Over 5 percent of our people aged over 65 years live in retirement villages. This bill skilfully, because of the select committee that worked on it, balances the difficulties of the elderly with the avariciousness, often, of the capital interests in retirement villages. This bill reflects the good work of the Office for Senior Citizens, whose staff worked tirelessly to come back with the correct answers to a very trying committee that demanded the best from them, and in fact has got the best, which is now reflected in this bill. In supporting this bill, I congratulate the officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0e730a930be4c5498f213ae11aa5548\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0e730a930be4c5498f213ae11aa5548\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens support this legislation. This bill sets out to protect the property rights of some of the most vulnerable people in our community, the elderly, and their interests in their retirement village homes. It is all too easy, as we sit in this place discussing the minutiae of the legislation, to lose sight of the big picture. That we find it necessary to build retirement villages is a little strange. Is there any other culture that would take its elderly and put them together in, as Mr Smith said, one lot of 35 houses just for the elderly? I find that a little strange. That we have to protect our oldest, and frequently our wisest, and those to whom each and every one of us is most indebted, from a minority, predators, who would rip them off or deal with them with a good deal less respect than they deserve, is an indictment of where we have come to as a society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI spent a good deal of yesterday trying to get a handle on retirement homes and the protection of property rights. I came back to my apartment this morning, after a 30-minute run through the city, and it struck me that we are making legislation for people who are very little different from myself, and with similar needs and passions. Many of them are not a lot older than myself. As unnatural as life in a mid-city apartment can be, my apartment is in the middle of a thriving community. I cannot leave my apartment without being thrown into that community. I buy my coffee, I run down Lambton Quay, I interact with the staff around Parliament, and I have the occasional meal with my family. I return to my electorate. I interact with an enormous and diverse range of individuals. I know that my life is enriched by those experiences, and I would like to think that occasionally the experiences I bring to those interactions might add a little to the sum total of human happiness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EMy fear is that retirement villages run the risk of removing our elders from our communities. I can understand why, in communities where we do not have time very often for our older folk, and maybe all they have time for is themselves, but I still find it a little strange. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI have a lot of people dear to me, who range from the fairly ancient to the very young. They include 84-year-old Arch, who still cycles down to the port and takes his dinghy out to his twin-masted yacht. It is not moored in some sheltered marina but on the other side of Nelson Haven, where at 76 years old Eddie is still the best sports injury fix-it man in the business. He phoned me this morning to say that someone who fell off his bicycle last week in Belgium is flying 12,000 miles around the world to be fixed up by him. He told me about Ben Blair, and the injury he sustained. He was fixed up too. He is 76 years old. Do we isolate him? Do we put him in a village? No, we leave him in our community\u2014or Amy, and James her 80-plus-year-old husband, who knocked on every door for me in Richmond during the last election campaign. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWould that we were discussing not simply how to protect retirement village property rights and retirement village residents, but rather, how best to create the kinds of communities that make more of us not merely comfortable and safe, and able to enjoy the company of people of a similar age, but also able to live in situations that guarantee the opportunity to mix with folk of similar and diverse interests, whatever their ages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ERetirement villages and rest homes are at risk of turning into monocultures\u2014and monocultures, whether they be people, forests, or cornfields, are risky. They are prone to disease and predators. Clearly, the fact that we find it necessary to pass this legislation demonstrates the truth of that. But at the risk of offending every retirement village resident, I say that such villages run the risk of making our communities much less interesting places. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ERetirement villages also make it more likely that we will assume that our near and dear no longer need us quite so much, when, in fact, we have never needed one another more. In diverse ecosystems the old trees provide shelter and nutrients. Their very presence ensures that the young trees and all the other components of the forest are able to thrive and to contribute. Human communities are no different. We need one another. This need is not just about meeting our responsibilities; it is about making sure that our children live with a full range of human experiences, that they experience the kind of love that is unique to grandparents, and that our oldest and wisest know that they are needed and valued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EJust as the old trees reach deep down and bring up nutrients and hold the land together, so our old folks have memories, wisdom, and values that all of us need if we are to have any chance of learning to live again within the capacity of our communities and the planet to sustain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWhile I have no great love of rules or bureaucracy, I believe that our elderly have a right to be protected from the unscrupulous, the incompetent, and the unreasonable. To give that protection is the purpose of this bill. But the legislation will also protect the great majority of good and competent operators from having their reputations sullied by the activities of the less competent, the less careful, and the downright difficult. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EIf this legislation is successful, there is likely to be less opportunity for the kind of behaviour that disadvantages the elderly and that has given rise to the horror stories of the innocent elderly or their descendants waiting for ever to get their investments\u2014and sometimes a good deal less than their investments\u2014returned when the residents die or move out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EFor those who are concerned about compliance costs, I imagine that just as landlords will take all necessary steps and willingly pay their lawyers to protect their own properties and interests, this bill will provide a similar level of protection for the rights and property of retirees in retirement villages. For retirement village operators, the cost of compliance should be no more than what any responsible landlord, with some concern about the welfare of his or her tenants, might expect to meet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe standard requirements for registering, complying with the industry code of practice, and disclosing the terms and conditions of residence in terms of payment, should minimise the cost and the effort required for measuring up, while the disputes procedures are likely to simplify life for both parties in the event of either party getting difficult or getting into difficulties. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ESo in the commentary we read that the bill will require that all retirement village operators register all retirement villages with the Registrar of Companies\u2014that is not an unreasonable expectation\u2014and comply with the Government-approved industry code of practice. Again, that is a reasonable expectation. They are required to disclose, in a standard format, all essential information on the procedures, terms, and conditions of residence, entry and exit, and sale or disposal arrangements, and charging systems. They are required to have a disputes procedure. Would that everybody enjoyed those protections\u2014especially the disputes procedures\u2014an ideal situation! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI must confess that as I sat on the select committee for only part of the deliberations on this bill, I thought it unnecessary to spell out to lawyers their responsibility in respect of ensuring that their clients understood what it was they were signing. Does that mean that in future if it is not spelt out, a lesser expectation might prevail? However, this document enshrines the conditions affecting one of the most expensive and important purchases in people\u2019s lives: their homes\u2014in this instance, they are the homes they probably expect to see their lives out in. This reminder to lawyers to spell out to their clients the conditions that they hope will guarantee their comfort during what may well be their most vulnerable years, is probably not unreasonable, and the certification is a reasonable attempt to guarantee that occupants understand what they are letting themselves in for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe share the concerns of those submitters who expressed their frustration about unheralded changes\u2014for example, a change of operator, or the sale or dispossession of a village. Having one\u2019s village sold is a strange notion, and the very least one could expect is forewarning. The requirement to consult goes some way to meet those concerns. The industry code of practice could also spell out what is actually involved in such consultation, to the mutual benefit of all parties. The statutory supervisor could also alleviate some of the frustrations, particularly over day-to-day issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ESo the intent of this legislation is good, and having a range of housing options for our retirees is no bad thing, but having turned housing and communities into commodities to be marketed and sold, let us, in addition to safeguarding the property rights of residents, look at the diverse needs of our whole community and think about how to create homes and villages that reflect the diversity of our communities and that meet our diverse needs. The Greens take pleasure in supporting this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002255d6d0e7c69442dfb14c8812c63c80cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002255d6d0e7c69442dfb14c8812c63c80cf\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022e58329269fe74618baf0c999c60f48d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e58329269fe74618baf0c999c60f48d3\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The previous speaker Mike Ward attempted a substantive review of this bill in the form in which it was returned from the Justice and Electoral Committee. He showed the kind of confusion that I had expected. He talked warmly of diversity while supporting a bill that in fact sets out to create a monoculture, and without apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill could have been sound. I believe that it was simply terrible when it was introduced, in terms of the intrusive, patronising attitude it took to old people, and the interference it would have made in their property rights and the rights of those who dealt with them. Retirement villages would have been an undesirable industry for anyone who valued any kind of certainty in the contracts he or she had, because of the political power to change the rules midway through any kind of enterprise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI believe that the bill has been dramatically improved. I was certainly grateful to have the acknowledgement from the Associate Minister of Justice, just as I was grateful that the Minister did not have such a stock of pride in her initial product as to reject the suggestions that came from the Justice and Electoral Committee. I felt that made it a worthwhile exercise to be involved in. But I still believe that the outcome is, sadly, short of what it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen the bill came in, it simply told the lenders to retirement villages that they would not be able to exercise their securities. It told the operators that they had to produce a simple, clear, and comprehensive disclosure statement, which I know, as one who has spent years trying to do that, is simply impossible. Comprehensiveness, in the face of liability, becomes voluminous, and simplicity and clarity disappear to almost all readers in the face of size. The bill told people that they would have a cooling-off period before they could have reliability in their contracts, but there was mystification expressed at the suggestion that that would mean older folk would not be allowed to move into their properties, despite their having feelings of full confidence, and despite their being adults with their own money. They would not be allowed to enter into a contract without some third party telling them that they could not move in until a specified period was up. The bill provided for a level of supervision that had not been sought by the industry to date, and it overrode contract in such a way that the Law Commission said to us, quite simply, in its terms: \u201CIf you are going to depart from freedom of contract, you might as well do so in a way that is effective in achieving the consumer protection that is aimed at.\u201D In other words, the Law Commission, which originated this bill, felt that it had fallen woefully short.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat had happened by the end? We had a process of slow and agonising improvement. I believe we have largely fixed the retrospective and arbitrary interference with financing contracts, which, it seemed, the original proposers felt could just happen with no cost. From my experience in the related area of lending to farmers, who quite often oppose enforcement, there is a consistent and otherwise unexplained premium on lending to farmers that this industry would have rapidly attracted. Lending to even the best farmers costs about 0.5 to 1.0 percent more than lending to an equivalent business in town of exactly the same cash flow and security characteristics, and from the studies it appears that that is because of the risk that it will be hard to enforce the security. We had a Government that was going to tell the lenders to this entire industry that it would rewrite their contracts, and that would mean they did not have their fundamental right to sell up on default.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat has been sort of fixed. We have sort of fixed the overriding nature of the code and its ability to rewrite the contract that had been the basis of the risk allocation and the financial arrangements that people go into these villages with. But we have not fixed it completely, and, as the Law Commission expressed it: \u201CIt seems to have happened here. There has been industry capture of the law reform process. There is a genuine risk of ending up with a measure that is a mere facade, rather than a genuine safeguard.\u201D That was from the very well-known Dr Dugdale, who does not mince his words. He would have abandoned all pretence of freedom of contract, and would have simply stipulated what all contracts would contain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIn the committee, we tried to make sure, instead, that the code could address only matters clearly stipulated for the Minister to address, and towards the end of it we tried to make sure that the drafters of the code were required to take into account the anti-competitive effect of such a code. A minority on the committee proposed the very simple suggestion that the Minister make sure that the code is not so onerous as to act as a barrier to persons of modest means gaining access to accommodation in retirement villages. It seems absolutely self-evident that the code should not be a barrier. We also suggested that the Minister ensure that the code is sufficiently flexible to permit the operation of villages with a range of pricing structures, and offering a range of services and facilities to residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETo my absolute astonishment, the officials recommended strongly against those provisions. Not only did they recommend against them, on what I believe were spurious technical and legal drafting grounds, but they actually said that this measure is not intended to assist people of modest means. It does not matter if this code \u201Cgold plates\u201D, because it is intended to affect only those who are rich enough to afford a gold-plated retirement village. Their advice said: \u201CIt is not the purpose of the retirement villages legislation to widen the range of retirement living options for people of modest means. It should not therefore be a requirement for the Minister to take into account the effect of code requirements on a group of people for whom retirement village living is not currently, or in the foreseeable future, an affordable option.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo here we see nakedly what this bill is about. This bill has been captured by the industry. This bill is all about buying votes from the lucky ones who are conscious of what the law can do for those who get their hands on its levers. This bill has become a charter for the majority in the industry to limit access by those pesky, untidy, often incoherent, often over-optimistic new entrants who keep pricing pressure on the industry and make sure it grows fast. This bill now makes sure that old people will never have the very best protection that they could have. The best protection for people in any industry is competitive tension. The very best protection that old people could ever have would be an over-supply of retirement units\u2014retirement villages going broke because there were not enough residents to fill them. That is the very best protection we can supply to people in this industry, because when there are too many units, everyone in the industry has to find ways of attracting and increasing the number of people in his or her units. The way that every successful market economy works is by making sure that people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bad44a7eb96d4de989c252a90d57732d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: This is not a market situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224da51b75cdc44308938fabf22b4eaeb1\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister just tells me this is not a market situation. That says it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ad84a5bf54e414094764c58d456e326\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s all one-sided at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff8ee5b1e5a04ff9b935e3b6fbe90103\u0022\u003EMurray Smith\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s no bargaining power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4dd0974178f4ff5834c1cb56275f474\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Listen to them. It is coming from two sides. We have United Future saying there is no bargaining power. An operator cannot force people to go into a village. An operator has no show whatsoever of getting people to go somewhere they do not want to go. An operator does not control people\u2019s money. This is absolutely hilarious, and just as I expected. They have shown themselves. What we have here is: \u201CThe Government knows best. The Government knows far better than the people.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002269387ffab43c4906a4a91bb51cff945b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269387ffab43c4906a4a91bb51cff945b\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (NZ Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E We can be assured of one thing after those comments. If there had been any risk of ACT party support reaching any threshold, it now is well and truly down the drain, because no aged person would support them after that extraordinary admission. I am pleased to have in my electorate of Dunedin South a number of large retirement villages. Many of the issues that have been brought to me by the people who live in those villages are in relation to misrepresentation, and to the misery that has arisen from the sorts of misunderstandings, genuine or deliberate, that have been encouraged as part of what the Associate Minister of Justice spoke about in her introductory speech. There has been a sad misunderstanding of the reality, which Ms Dalziel characterised perfectly when she spoke of retirement units not being the capital asset that people expected they would be when they bought their new retirement home. I acknowledge there are extraordinary levels of community, of health support, and of security related to these organisations and communities, and I commend that. It is a very sad comment on how our society has developed that so many people have been suckered into that sort of environment because of that attraction, and in many cases have lost what are often quite meagre life-savings. I am absolutely flabbergasted at what I have just heard from the ACT party, as will be readers of the Hansard that I will distribute with pleasure in my electorate. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00221818a81a6c41407e8f09aed833b888fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221818a81a6c41407e8f09aed833b888fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: National has not had a male speaker yet. Richard Worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022e63324b914c24ae5a79683d1b93c4bbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e63324b914c24ae5a79683d1b93c4bbb\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, thank you very much for selecting a male speaker at this stage to advance the debate. Before I turn to the merit of the bill, I would like to say that two people should be singled out for the special contribution they have made in connection with this legislation. The first is Dr Lynda Scott, who modestly told members of the House how her bill had panicked the Government into initiating this Government measure, which now comes before the House for its second reading as reported from the Justice and Electoral Committee. The second person I would nominate for special mention is Cliff Cook, not only for his period of service in, and exemplary leadership of, the Retirement Villages Association, but also for the fact that he is instrumental in leading one of the prime providers of excellent retirement villages throughout New Zealand. I am speaking, of course, of the publicly listed Metlifecare group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ERetirement villages are increasingly a residential option for older New Zealanders, with some 4 percent of people aged over 65 currently living in a retirement village. I understand that there are around 300 villages currently in operation, accommodating more than 20,000 people. As an earlier speaker has indicated, growth trends show both increases in the number of villages and expansion of residential capacity within some existing villages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is somewhat easy to overstate the issues, and I believe that some of the Government members have been guilty of that in the short comments they have made. But there is no doubt that the charging and management practices of some retirement villages have, over the last decade, been the subject of complaint. A range of problems have been identified by residents and by their representatives, which have included difficulty in comprehending the nature of village financing and charging regimes; hidden costs associated with exit from a village\u2014and members have spoken about that issue\u2014uncertainty about residential rights, particularly where occupancy of a villa or a unit is based on a licence to occupy or a lease agreement; poor management of villages, including unchecked deterioration of communal facilities and reduced quality of services; and, finally, I would say an absence of formal, efficient, and fair processes to deal with complaints or disputes, whether between residents or between residents and management. I have entered a word of caution, because it is easy to overstate these issues, and the problems are not endemic. But they are too frequently documented to be ignored at a social policy level, and there is little doubt that they are a cause of concern from a consumer and residential rights perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe average age of entry to a retirement village is 74 years. For many people, the village they choose represents their last place of residence. Their investment therefore not only is significant on a financial level, but has attached to it expectations and an understanding that their interests and their rights will be protected. As Dr Scott has told us, a Law Commission report in 1999 concluded that separate legislation was required to give retirement village residents protection as consumers, residents, and investors. So it is that, as a result of Dr Scott\u2019s urgings, the Government introduced this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is a journey that had earlier been travelled in Australia, where in 1980 there was specific legislation for retirement villages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221369a83ae211447ba783f648f7ff0d31\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d437339b293461aa8fa55ade5d04a2e\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Members opposite need to know that I am not in the least disconcerted by the barracking that they offer. It does little to advance the debate, and simply indicates a measure of immaturity and intolerance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EMajor changes were made to the bill in the course of the select committee process. Indeed, there are significant changes on just about every page. That is not a bad thing, but I simply note\u2014and it is apparent from looking through the commentary\u2014that members of the committee looked at the definition of retirement village, and at issues of kaum\u0101tua flats, registration, memorial on title, and occupation right agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe select committee also looked at a particular issue that was a cause of tension between residents and their representatives, on the one hand, and the operators of the village, on the other, and that was the issue of certification, which was referred to earlier by a member. Under the current model proposed in this bill as reported back, a legal adviser now needs to certify that he or she had advised an intending resident before that person signed an occupation right agreement, and that the general effect and implications of the relevant agreement had been properly explained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe looked at cooling-off periods; cancellation for delay; a code of residents\u2019 rights, which I would like to come back to; issues of statutory supervisors; dispute resolution; and the tricky issue of delays in the sale or disposal of units. The end result\u2014and I agree with Mr Franks\u2014is that the legislation that has emerged from the select committee is much the better for the process. For those who argue in the context of a unicameral Parliament that a select committee performs a function akin to an Upper House, I can only, in the context of this legislation, agree with the observation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like to refer to two issues at this stage. The first is National\u2019s position in respect of this bill. We support the bill\u2014we worked hard to improve the bill during the course of its consideration\u2014but we are concerned about two aspects, which are highlighted in the commentary. The first is the possible consequence of significantly increased compliance costs for some operators, and the second, which Mr Franks has referred to, is the likely consequence that smaller operators will withdraw from the industry or be dissuaded from entering. He put the issue attractively as the possibility of a monolithic culture developing. That can, assuredly, not be ruled out. If either of those two possibilities that I have referred to comes about, it would be our hope that the Government would move to make changes to the legislation to ameliorate those concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EFinally, I conclude on the issue of citizens\u2019 rights. If members opposite turn to page 95 of the bill as reported back, they will see, in my view, amazing stuff. I am referring to schedule 3, which includes the code of residents\u2019 rights. Arguably, this sort of material should not appear in primary legislation. There are many examples where it appears in tertiary legislation. I make two points. The right to be treated with courtesy and have one\u2019s rights respected, and the right not to be exploited are, I suggest, gross examples of extreme political correctness, and it is sad that they should be in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdcacbb848ce4da8b022e7022a2bbe45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdcacbb848ce4da8b022e7022a2bbe45\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (NZ Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is about balancing the sometimes, but not always, competing interests of the residents and the operators of retirement villages. I believe that the balance provided in the bill is pretty well right. It is interesting to note that those who face retirement much more imminently make lengthy speeches; those of us who do not have to worry about it too much are happy to sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00225b5b2531e1424ebc9de4b687ea79584c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225b5b2531e1424ebc9de4b687ea79584c\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E We have heard tonight some horror stories from the United Future member and the Green member about what can go wrong in retirement villages. Just to give a little balance, I commend to those members of Parliament who feel that they might have gone past their use-by date a retirement village in my electorate of Clevedon called Longford Park Village. I make that recommendation with some trepidation, on the basis that something might go wrong, but that is a retirement village about which I have not heard one complaint from the residents. I have even had one darling old man, who must have been close to 90 if he was not over it, suggesting that I might like to put my name forward so that I could sign up there when I was old enough. I thought that was a really nice suggestion. I am sure that Mr Gosche opposite would love to come and join me there, but actually I am not sure that he would be able to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne concern this legislation is trying to address is that people in an elderly condition are often alone\u2014often they have lost a lifelong partner\u2014and in a very vulnerable position. As a lawyer of 22 years in practice, I have to say I have seen quite a few who wanted desperately to move into a particular retirement village. They have been sold it on the basis of lovely brochures, and recommendations from their local MP\u2014oops, I did not mean to say that, Mr Speaker\u2014and those sorts of things. Some also feel, unfortunately, some pressure from family members who would like them to move to a retirement village because they are becoming a bit of a handful. It is actually quite sad that people should ever feel like that. I am very fortunate that neither of my parents ever felt the need to go into a retirement village. But it was great to know that there were some very nice villages available should they ever have wished to go into one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOf course, there are many reasons for people wanting to move into villages, and one in particular is concern for their personal safety. Unfortunately, many elderly people feel that they are not in fact secure in their own homes. It is an absolute disgrace that people in their 80s and 90s feel that they could be attacked in their own homes. Unfortunately, some are, although most are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E In addition to that, there is the concern over loneliness. Many elderly people are so divorced from what their children and grandchildren are doing that they just feel plain lonely. If a person has had a lifelong partner, then has lost that partner, it is very difficult for that person\u2014and these people are often very elderly\u2014to try to resurrect some form of relationship with other people. It is very, very hard. In a well-run retirement village, they can often do all sorts of things, such as the activities at Longford Park. They play bowls, there are indoor swimming pools, they go on day trips and to the movies, and so on. Elderly people often live a more active life, in those retirement villages that are well run, than they would have done if they had stayed in their own homes or with their families. In many ways, these sorts of retirement villages are a great thing. They have been existing and operating without this bill, which is another stunning fact, and they have done so in the market economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns is that sometimes elderly people sign up to retirement villages on the basis that they have good health, and often do not realise that, under the agreement, the licence to occupy is such that they cannot go back to their own unit once their health deteriorates to the point where they have to go to a hospital wing. That is often a very difficult thing to know, because most people would see themselves as owning the property rather than simply having a licence to occupy, such as a licence to occupy a room. That is one of the concerns, so I am pleased to see that there are provisions relating to disclosure in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ERetirement villages, no matter what we want to say about the market economy and how well it works most of the time, are quite a new thing, from the point of view of both the legal system and of many elderly people being connected with it. We have heard tonight that 4 percent of people over the age of 65 are in retirement villages, but that is a very small number of people. Consequently, there are not many people who can say that they know about retirement villages because their parents went into one before them, or their cousin, or sister, or brother. It is quite a small number of people. In part, that number has been kept small because people are concerned about the financial ability of retirement villages to keep operating, and about just how secure their own investments are. At the end of the day, most retirement villages are for the elderly living in them rather than for investment. They are more of a safety net and a lifestyle choice. Quite often, elderly people can free up some capital by going into one, as well. So it is very important that we have the same sorts of safeguards as have been put forward here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI stress that the vast majority of retirement villages in this country are well run. They are not places where the elderly are routinely ripped off, because those sorts of operations would never survive in this environment, let alone any environment that was more regulated. I take some exception to the comments of one particular member, who cast aspersions on all the retirement villages in existence at the moment. I thought that was a shame. But I applaud Mr Smith\u2019s speech, when he talked to us about his dissatisfaction with the way that a retirement village was run, because of the many complaints from his constituents living in the area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIn essence, this bill has been brought about by some excellent work in the Justice and Electoral Committee. It started with the member\u2019s bill from my colleague Dr Lynda Scott, the first geriatrician, as far as I am aware, in the House, and someone who can truly say she has worked for many years with the elderly and is fully aware of their concerns. I am very pleased to be able to support this bill, both as a lawyer and as a member of Parliament, and, at the same time, to commend to the House those many, many retirement villages that are well run and managed, and are providing a very good service, even under the limited law that we currently have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EAmendments recommended by the Justice and Electoral Committee by majority agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002217844d1242e9436a82c3a06322e3617b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Retirement Villages Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 105\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dfb6600cd2c84a7ab5016e9587515ba4\u0022\u003EBiosecurity Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022434c32953cf54356874f091589180e3a\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002247597931d38a4b32bd69527ed45ce314\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247597931d38a4b32bd69527ed45ce314\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Biosecurity Amendment Bill be now read a second time. The Biosecurity Amendment Bill consists of two parts in 26 clauses. The first part makes 23 small but important changes to the Biosecurity Act. The second part repeals five redundant sections and part of one other section of the Forests Act. These redundant sections deal with issues of forest border control and pest management that are now dealt with under the Biosecurity Act. The amendments to the Biosecurity Act could be categorised as technical in nature and consequently the main policies of the Act are not changed by the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced adds a new section that imposes a duty on all people to inform a chief technical officer of the presence of organisms not normally seen in New Zealand. The Primary Production Committee has recognised the need for three changes to the clause dealing with the duty to inform. Firstly, the committee has amended clause 6 so that a person\u2019s duty to inform is to inform the ministry rather than the chief technical officer. The second change the committee recommended was to confirm that the duty to inform does not apply to organisms contained or released according to statutory approvals under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. The third change is that the reporting duty applies to micro-organisms as well as to those seen with the naked eye. The committee also recommends that the Government provide information about unwanted organisms to assist those who have a duty to report, should the bill be enacted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe bill as introduced provided a power to reduce the notice period to a minimum of 24 hours in cases where the 2-hour notice period would seriously damage the chance of containing or eradicating an undesirable organism. In such cases, notices may be given by way of radio or television announcement, or other means appropriate to the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI wish to thank the Primary Production Committee for its work in considering the Biosecurity Amendment Bill. The amendments it has proposed will improve the bill\u2019s provisions. The committee\u2019s recommendations to the Government and to the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry are accepted and are being implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022a5a470afdb3a490a836b6acf07b675ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a5a470afdb3a490a836b6acf07b675ee\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this very important Biosecurity Amendment Bill. The National Party will be supporting this bill, because we recognise just how important biosecurity is to New Zealand. It is important in many ways. It is important to our economy, to our environment, and to both human and animal health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E I have huge reservations about the priority and degree of importance this minority Labour Government attaches to biosecurity. I note that this bill was referred to the select committee on 16 August 2001. There were seven submissions, a 75-minute hearing of evidence, and then consideration for 4 hours and 10 minutes. But here we are under urgency, almost 2 years later, and this Labour Government, which has so little interest in progressing such an important bill as this, has just sat back. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is hugely important to focus on this Government\u2019s appalling biosecurity record. Just since October last year there have been 11 biosecurity incursions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a9a215357a948d0b7adbdd716653a91\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d09304dfc4084cc1af598047625c2a51\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: There have been 11 since October last year. This bill came to the select committee 2 years ago, and it should have been passed a long time ago. The Government should have shown its interest in the hugely important area of biosecurity, but it has failed to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELet us look at those 11 incursions since October last year. They include the Asian gypsy moth, crazy ants, fire ants, mosquito larvae, Asian tiger mosquito larvae, a Sydney Huntsman spider, Australian redback spiders and eggs, a North American southern ring-necked snake, a cane toad, and a scorpion. It is interesting to note that the general public have been responsible for discovering more than half of those incursions over that period. Clearly, the Government and its biosecurity surveillance systems are just not working. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is important to point out just how significant this issue is to this Parliament. Treasury has estimated that an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in New Zealand would result in a cumulative loss of the order of $10 billion in 2 years and 15,000 jobs. That is how important the impact would be on the New Zealand economy, yet here we have a Government that is just dawdling along in respect of one of the things that is most important to the well-being of New Zealand. It might make a priority of deciding whether the lesbian parent of a child who happens to be born by reproductive technology should be called a father, but here is something that is hugely important to all New Zealanders. This Government\u2019s priorities are just way, way out of proportion, and that is greatly worrying. To further point that fact out, we had the Associate Minister of Biosecurity, the Hon Marian Hobbs, telling this House on 26 March 2003 that finding only six incursions in the previous fortnight showed that we were really very good at surveillance. That is what she said. That is an indictment on this Labour Government and its Associate Minister of Biosecurity. Certainly, it is a huge worry when we have the sort of Government that just does not give priority to the things that are hugely important to New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIf the Government had really been concerned about this issue, it would have made sure that the surveillance and education of passengers coming into New Zealand were far greater. It is worthwhile to just go over some of the things that are picked up at the border. At New Zealand\u2019s international airports last year, quarantine officers removed the following from incoming passengers: 8 tonnes of meat products, 15.9 tonnes of fruit, 3.6 tonnes of seeds, 3.2 tonnes of dairy products, 3.2 tonnes of fish products, and 5,800 plant items. That is astounding, yet here is a bill that was referred to the select committee on 16 August 2001, and here we are under urgency, almost 2 years later, finally getting round to progressing this non-contentious bill. The National Party certainly realises how important this bill is. The minority Labour Government just has not prioritised some of New Zealand\u2019s most important issues in the way that it should have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere have been some very important submissions, including one from Federated Farmers of New Zealand. I want to pay tribute to Federated Farmers for the vigilance it has consistently shown over many years in recognising how important an issue biosecurity is for New Zealand. After all, Federated Farmers has been the group representing those New Zealanders who are responsible for such a huge proportion of our exports. It points out in its submission that New Zealand pastoral exports are valued at $13.2 billion, and in 2000-01 pastoral exports comprised 42.7 percent of all exports. It goes on to say that New Zealand is heavily reliant on passive surveillance to detect new and unwanted pests and disease risks to nearly half its export earnings. What a hugely worrying concern it is when we have a Government such as this minority Labour Government that dawdles on such a hugely important issue as biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f46594c6ba0c420a90337c1a2dec4b34\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s so popular.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d125c64805ef41c78c084db21451fd27\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: We have the \u201CMinister of the Painted Apple Moth\u201D over there saying \u201Cit\u2019s so popular\u201D. That Minister\u2019s organisation of the control of the painted apple moth has been a shambles. It has been a disgrace in every sense. He talks about popularity, but it is certainly not deserved when it comes to the issue of biosecurity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere are some very important issues within this bill that we support. Firstly, we support the duty of people to inform of the presence of organisms not usually seen in New Zealand. As the Minister pointed out, clause 6 reintroduces a previously repealed section that imposed a non-enforceable duty on all persons to inform of the presence of an organism not usually seen in New Zealand. Once again, the amendments address the question of reducing the amount of time relating to notice of aerial spraying. There was another excellent submission from that wonderful organisation, the National Council of Women, which pointed out that the time limits are vital, and the select committee has indeed recommended that time limits are absolutely imperative. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI will end by saying this is a hugely important bill, and National supports it. The Government has dawdled over implementing it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00222cf12558f8644a89b3ad9a7b7780fe33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cf12558f8644a89b3ad9a7b7780fe33\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak in support of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill. First, in response the speaker before me, I want to indicate how pleased we in United Future are to be supporting this urgency week so that bills like this can be passed through this House, instead of being left sitting on the Table for so long. This is an important bill that deals with an important subject for our nation. The intent of the bill is to amend the Biosecurity Act of 1993 to reflect experience of its practical application over 10 years, as well as make changes to clarify responsibilities for administering pest management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn terms of better defining responsibilities, the merger of the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Forestry has made some provisions of the Forests Act redundant, so those will be repealed. The bill ensures that the protective provisions of the Wildlife Act do not conflict with the use of the Biosecurity Act to control a wildlife organism that has since proved to have undesirable effects, as it did with the rainbow lorikeet. In the same vein, the Supplementary Order Paper in the Minister\u2019s name was developed to ensure that the proposals of the Department of Conservation for regulating ferrets under the Biosecurity Act are not frustrated by wildlife regulations regarding farming of unprotected wildlife. The bill also allows persons not employed under the State Sector Act to be appointed as inspectors, which is sensible in emergency situations where additional biosecurity inspectors, who might not be Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry staff, could be required. They would still be subject to the supervision of ministry staff, however. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAs I noted before, some provisions in the bill have arisen from the experience of officials and others in applying the legislation in practice. For example, the bill extends the ability to inspect and treat unaccompanied imported goods to include transnational facilities such as those areas used to process passengers. Normally, goods accompany passengers in those areas, but inspectors have found that that is not always the case, so the law needs to give them the power to check goods in this instance. The bill also extends the power to search persons and seize goods beyond unauthorised goods to include risk goods\u2014in other words, organic matter\u2014and allow for routine audits where uncleared risk goods or unauthorised goods might not necessarily be suspected. In certain circumstances, leaving uncleared risk goods or unauthorised goods would create a real risk of further spread of the pest or disease if these goods cannot be removed and placed in a secure facility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOne of the most important aspects of the bill is perhaps the provision that re-enacts a previously repealed section that imposed a non-enforceable duty on all persons to inform the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry of the presence of foreign organisms. The new provision revives that reporting requirement, but it is coupled with a new offence provision that applies to persons who would reasonably be expected to recognise an alien organism yet fail to alert authorities. The Primary Production Committee recommended that to make it easier for the public to pass on information, the obligation to report should be to the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry in general, rather than the chief technical officer. That seems a sensible move, and would make it as easy as ringing the 0800 number listed in the phone book. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe foot-and-mouth outbreak in the UK emphasised the importance of an early warning system, so we support the proposal to create a general duty to inform authorities on becoming aware of the presence of an organism not normally found on these shores. Without that legal obligation, commercial interests could conflict with the duty to report. For example, a commercial entity might be unwilling to report due to the potential financial impact that it could have on that individual business, or because it would be a breach of a contractual arrangement. New Zealand is very reliant on the reporting of incursions by those not employed by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. The Ministry cannot be everywhere, and this bill gives greater legal weight to that role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe select committee also suggested that the Government should provide information about unwanted organisms to assist those in a position to report their presence. It would seem unfair to insert a duty-to-report requirement into the legislation without ensuring that the people at whom it is targeted know what they should be reporting. United Future would like the Government to demonstrate a commitment to providing those educational resources. We know that some work has already begun to make farmers more aware of unwelcome pests and diseases. For example, leaflets were distributed at the recent national field days illustrating the symptoms of six key ruminant diseases, under the slogan \u201CLook, check, ask a vet\u201D. That is a positive sign, and we look to the Government to extend this campaign to other groups, such as those involved in the importation of goods that might carry unwanted pests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe proposal that pest management strategies must include a general description of the measures to be taken to implement the strategy is worthwhile. Often it is the implementation that causes concerns, and people who are being asked to consider a strategy should have reasonable information on how it should be implemented. We hope that this will lead to a better-informed consultation process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOne of the most important provisions is the one that drastically reduces the notice required for aerial spraying, in an effort to ensure that a pest incursion does not spread beyond its early stages. Some speakers have already discussed that measure, and I would like to focus on it in more detail to express some of United Future\u2019s concerns, so I intend to take a call during the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOur biosecurity strategy is vitally important to New Zealand\u2019s ongoing economic viability. The Reserve Bank has estimated that a foot-and-mouth outbreak in this country would result in a loss of 20,000 jobs and a $10 billion drop in gross domestic product over 2 years. The primacy of the agricultural industry in New Zealand, and the fact that we are free from many foreign organisms because we share no land borders, makes our economy vulnerable to such incursions. Vegetables and fruit alone generate almost $2 billion worth of exports annually and the majority of domestic market requirements. Exports are forecast to hit $3.8 billion by 2010, so it is a very valuable industry to us. All of it is dependent on keeping New Zealand free from pests and diseases, yet over the past 5 years we have had 30 biosecurity incursions requiring eradication or control at an estimated cost of $100 million. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe select committee recently heard the Acting Minister for Biosecurity admit that the cost of the Government\u2019s war against the painted apple moth in west Auckland is almost as much as if the moth had been left to its own devices, and that really is an unthinkable thought. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry budgeted $90 million over 3 years for the all-out aerial attack on the moth, but it is also estimated that the pest could cause between $58 million and $356 million in damage over 20 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EStrangely, the funding provided for biosecurity in this year\u2019s Budget has been reduced. Only $25 million was earmarked this year for incursion surveillance, when $90 million was approved in principle by the Government in 2002 for the eradication of the painted apple moth alone. Surely it would be better to put more money into proactive measures, such as freight-container monitoring and surveillance, rather than spraying the population after the incursion has spread. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EUnited Future supports this bill, but feels very strongly that more needs to be done to beef up our detection of biosecurity incursions before we need to start spraying the poor population again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u00225ba40589971148e4b0eb6f64d132e243\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ba40589971148e4b0eb6f64d132e243\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this bill and its intent to rectify some of the difficulties resulting from the discovery of the new and exotic harmful organisms that have arrived in New Zealand since the introduction of the original Biosecurity Act in 1993. This bill goes some of the way towards reducing the possibility of those unwelcome organisms becoming established; it goes some of the way towards reducing the risks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EClause 6 inserts new section 44, which requires every person to inform the ministry \u201Cof the presence of what appears to be an organism not normally seen or otherwise detected in New Zealand.\u201D The only problem with that is that there is a need for a comprehensive and ongoing education programme, to inform the public of the organisms that are normally seen in New Zealand. The lack of informed knowledge in this area may make that clause unworkable. However, I understand its intent, and it may well provide an early indication of new organisms when they arrive in New Zealand, after having already slipped past the border controls that are in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E Many MPs in the House may well have received a letter, as I have done, from a Bruce Hollamby of Mystic Ferrets, which is one of only three private ferret businesses in New Zealand. The business creates close to $1 million in exports of desexed live ferrets to the United States as pets. There is also a small domestic market of similarly desexed animals. Mr Hollenby maintains that he is being unfairly treated under clause 4 of this bill, and I understand that he intends to sue the Government for the loss of business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIn his letter to us, Mr Hollamby indicated that he has two main concerns with regard to this bill. Firstly, although his business and his company is able to continue as long as he is running the company, that effectively makes his business and company valueless. The moment that he tries to sell the company, it will no longer exist. Secondly, and more important to the New Zealand economy\u2014in particular, to New Zealand\u2019s domestic economy\u2014Mr Hollamby maintains that by banning the farming of ferrets, amateur breeders will simply go underground and create a huge black market, without the safeguards of the animals being desexed. That would certainly be a concern. If amateur breeders start to release pets into the wild that have not been desexed, then we will have a major problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI would also like to touch on the issue of aerial spraying. This bill reduces the notification period for that from 2 weeks down to 24 hours. In fact, the bill even has a clause in it that reduces the period down to less than 24 hours under certain circumstances. I see that as a very important part of the bill, because if an organism is discovered and is one that has the potential to spread rapidly, then the minimum period is probably zero hours if we are to make sure it is eradicated immediately. However, under the circumstances of the aerial spraying of a large area like west Auckland, the concerns there are that a 24-hour minimum period is possibly not even enough for the people who will be affected to become aware of the dangers and the difficulties that they may suffer health-wise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003ETherein lies a problem, given that there has not been any extensive research on the people of west Auckland prior to the aerial spraying commencing. When it was discovered that many people were suffering ill effects from the spraying of that area, there was no background information on those people that could be used as a basis for identifying or admitting that there was a problem with the spraying. Basically, those people were allowed to move out of the area and their expenses were paid, but it is not acknowledged that the spraying may well be causing some major health problems for those people. We need to examine that area of this bill in more depth during the Committee stage. We can examine it during the Committee stage and look at some ways of tightening it up to improve that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAnother area that concerns me is to do with the lack of a database of the exotic and unwelcome organisms that are present in our trading partners. If the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the other biosecurity bodies had a comprehensive database of the organisms that are potential dangers to New Zealand and are known to exist in the countries that are our trading partners, then we would have a much better idea of the risks, and a better chance of identifying those organisms as they arrive on the border. That is one of the difficulties that the authorities ran into when the painted apple moth and some of the other similar organisms were discovered. The organisms did not exist on a database, so the authorities had to track them down and find out whether they would be a threat. By the time the painted apple moth was tracked down, it had spread beyond an area in which it could be easily contained. Therefore, it required a much larger spray programme, effectively trying to contain the painted apple moth. In the meantime, while a spray programme was going on in the central area the painted apple moth was spreading beyond that area before the authorities had even got to it. It was unfortunately that that organism had already spread outside the initial spray area before spraying began. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003ESo I think we need to tighten this bill up. The intent of the bill is very good, and we will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00220c476e311edf4e1f8ab5ff52f8aeb3f4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220c476e311edf4e1f8ab5ff52f8aeb3f4\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E It is always a pleasure to speak on issues on which there is a huge degree of unanimity within the House. Unfortunately, the Government brings far too many bills before the House that do not have any common sense and do not reflect the wishes of the entire select committee, but this surely is one that does. Who amongst us here would deny the value of biosecurity to this country? No other issue is more important to this country. I will not bore the House or the public by going through the figures again. I think it was Dr Paul Hutchison who gave the House a very good indicator of the impact that a major outbreak of a disease such as foot-and-mouth would have on this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI want to turn my attention to the practicalities of biosecurity\u2014that is, the way that things work outside this ivory tower, out in the real world. I want to give the House a couple of examples. The bill states that there is an obligation on members of the public to inform the authorities if they have cause or reason to suspect that an organism they come across is one that is not wanted. Let me tell members of an instance of that. Some years ago in the Maniototo a well-known farmer discovered what he thought was nassella tussock. He swore his employees to secrecy, because if it had been notified to the authorities it would have cost him a lot of money. He did nothing about it in terms of informing the authorities, but did a lot of work in terms of trying to grub that particular nasty tussock out of our environment. He did so for about 15 years, only to discover by chance that it was not nassella tussock but was, in fact, a thing called Australian sedge. The guy just about broke down in tears to think of all the work he had done for all those years, in grubbing out something that was not really a problem. I tell that story to make the House understand the importance of people in New Zealand failing to recognise and report those sorts of plants, or what could be potential incursions, to the appropriate authority. It should not be a threat to do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI would also like to talk about one of the more recent and highly publicised biosecurity threats. It even got me on the Mary Lambie show. A man cannot aspire very much higher than that! It was the Mary Lambie show at 10.30 in the morning\u2014about the appropriate time for all good farmers to be in for their lunch or morning tea, and not breakfast, as is the case with the Green Party farmers. That show was about the introduction of rabbit calicivirus disease, as it was then known, which is now known as rabbit haemorrhagic disease. What a marvellous result that disease has had for this country and for the environment. We hear so much about this Government being very concerned about the environment, but it did nothing about introducing that disease. I will touch on another issue a little later on that the Government is studiously ignoring. But rabbit haemorrhagic disease was only brought into this country\u2014and illegally\u2014because the authorities would not recognise the benefit of myxomatosis before that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E The Government had virtually promised for years that it would introduce those organisms to protect our environment. Who amongst us can stand in this House with a hand on his or her heart and say the introduction of rabbit haemorrhagic disease has been a disaster for this country? It has been an absolutely outstanding success, and it was brought in illegally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EYet there have, of course, been huge failures. I think back to many, many years ago when the early settlers brought things like gorse and broom, rabbits, stoats, weasels, and those sorts of organisms that have produced enormous harm to our economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247125c996d7b4518a258eeddb09deb37\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Red deer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022827de6a8908243bfb54ec284debd32fe\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Red deer have almost become indigenous. They are just like brown and rainbow trout. Now there is an issue. The Fish and Game Council would say those trout species provide a fantastic recreational opportunity for the people of this country. The rabid \u201Cgreenies\u201D, and there are one or two of them in the Minister\u2019s office, would say we should get rid of those unwanted organisms, brown and rainbow trout, because they are\u2014let us wait for this\u2014introduced species, so they are not welcome in this country. Yet each one of us is an introduced species. I include my M\u0101ori colleagues in that statement. Each one of us was introduced to this country one way or another. Some of us are more wanted organisms than others, and we have to live with that, I guess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut there have been very, very significant biosecurity breaches that have been devastating, and I mentioned a few of them before. The most recent devastating one was the varroa bee mite. I suspect that the full impact of the varroa bee mite coming into this country is not understood to this day, in terms of the impact it will have on our native flora and fauna. Wild bees pollinate much of our native flora, and that could well be lost. The Government sat on its hands for months before it decided to give control of the varroa bee mite a go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe have a disease that seems to permeate this Labour Government, and it is called procrastination. Labour members thought that was a big decision. That does not surprise me, because Government members are so unused to decision making that they struggle to know which side of bed to get out of in the morning. They toss a coin and ask what they should do today, and then ask what will happen if they make the wrong choice. That is just a reflection on the Government. It desperately needs the experience of people from the Opposition side of the House, who have had experience out in the real world, the real environment, and who know how to react. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI would like to ask that rather vociferous-sounding individual, the chief Government whip, why this Government will not make a very simple introduction into this country, in order to enhance our biosecurity enormously. I am talking about the gamma radiation of fruit, which would have an immediate impact on anybody bringing product into this country\u2014and we have heard that over 8 tonnes of meat product comes into this country illegally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fa0c5a814f44d5faac274d0bdcbcba5\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Radiate them with their fruit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e152712aff4f62bc2dcff56f3d659d\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague is absolutely right. But why do we studiously ignore the huge opportunity that gamma radiation gives to the biosecurity of this island country of ours that is so dependent on ensuring that we do make sure that unwanted organisms do not come into it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI, along with all members of the Opposition, deeply lament the total lack of research and development that has gone into biosecurity in this country. Yet again, the Australians have beaten us. I see a blank look on the face of my colleague Ian Ewen-Street, who is wondering how they have beaten us again on this issue. Technology developed in Australia just recently has shown that if nitrogen gas is bubbled through the ballast of ships, it will kill virtually all the organisms that exist in that ballast. That is a huge problem, because ships come into New Zealand constantly for trade. We can even export water out of Deep Cove, for example, but there is concern about the ballast brought in from the Far East, or anywhere else in the world. Ships remove the ballast, and introduce the fresh water out of our wonderful pristine environment in its place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003ETechnology and science\u2014dare I say those words in this House in the presence of Government members, when I know how they hate science and dismiss it? I say that we have huge opportunity to upgrade the security of our borders by just listening to scientists and spending more of our resources on the things that matter, like science, technology, and introducing chemists to study the problems that we do face and must solve. We will not solve the problems just by burying our heads in the sand and pretending that gamma radiation is not really the major advance that it is. We have the opportunity right now to introduce it\u2014in fact, it is old technology\u2014and we could move forward quite rapidly to introduce new technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd5c81233163466abc45f40f5ecfbc90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd5c81233163466abc45f40f5ecfbc90\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E It is a privilege to speak in the second reading of this bill. When reading through the report of the Primary Production Committee, which addressed this bill, on getting to the committee membership, the name of a member of that committee\u2014Gavan Herlihy\u2014leapt out at me. It is a name that this House has not heard for some time. As I recall, Gavan Herlihy was a very good member. Unfortunately, he is the only member from that committee who is no longer in the Parliament, but that matters not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022622fb58a97ea443fba7985d23189ae3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022622fb58a97ea443fba7985d23189ae3c\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will support this bill. We recognise that biosecurity is enormously important to this country. The greatest danger facing this country is not from invading armies, but from invading species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI was very interested to hear my colleague Dr Paul Hutchison list some of the species that have invaded this country just recently. He is quite right. But what Dr Hutchison overlooks is that at the same time as he is concerned about biosecurity, he is also a very proactive zealot in terms of promoting genetically engineered (GE) organisms. Obviously, Dr Hutchison fails to recognise that those organisms are themselves alien species. We know that they are alien species because a natural species cannot be patented, whereas a GE species can be. GE organisms are, by definition, alien species. We do not know what the long-term consequences of releasing them into our environment may be. We do not know whether they will be the gorse, possums, and rabbits of the future; we simply do not know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWe have only to look at the example of what has happened in Canada with GE organisms there. GE canola was supposed to be the saviour of Canadian agriculture, but Canada found that GE canola, which was designed to be resistant to herbicide\u2014in particular, to glyphosate, which is the generic name for Roundup\u2014escaped from the paddocks, and got into roadside verges and gullies. Because it was resistant to Roundup it could not be killed with that, so more toxic and persistent chemicals than Roundup had to be used to get rid of it. That created a major problem in terms of weed control, and Canada finished up by declaring GE canola to be a noxious species.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2168c367b0b4fbcb73d0b21b4e12194\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: They created a monster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e42f48620c714a3cbb72e00456da0d47\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: They did create a monster.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224339b3c15104df2a2a2c84068eefdb2\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Frankenstein.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dc6ff1908474686a0c688bb17361e35\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Frankenstein food. It is very interesting to listen to people in this House talk about biosecurity. The free-trade zealots like my colleague from ACT, Mr Eckhoff, are very keen on having free trade come into this country. Yet it is free trade and tourism that are creating the major problem for biosecurity in this country. People are tempted to open sea containers or to smuggle goods through on their person when they come in on aeroplanes. That is where the real problems lie in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EIn terms of the bill itself, I am very pleased to see that people can now report unusual organisms on an 0800 number, rather than having to go specifically to chief technical officers. I do have concerns, though, about the non-requirement to report unusual species that are legitimately in New Zealand under the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. My concern is really about what I have just outlined, with regard to GE organisms. Those organisms may well be legitimately in this country. They may have been approved by the Environmental Risk Management Authority and approved under the Act, but what happens in a situation like the one the Canadians have had with their canola, when those organisms start to appear in places where they should not be? It is the people who know their farms, the vets, and the stock agents who know when those species start to appear, so they should be required to report all alien species, and particularly GE ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI suspect that if we do buckle under the free-trade pressure of the United States and destroy our own main economic base of providing clean, green agricultural products, then we will need to further amend this legislation. I can see the day coming when this legislation will come back to the House and we have to amend it to compel people to report alien species, particularly GE ones. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI have some concern about the phrase in clause 24 that refers to a person who knows or could reasonably be expected to know what an alien species is, and where it should be. How do we judge whom those people are? Who does the judging?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbc40e0d69e947a1afd71ac1ca052e99\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been \u201Ctaken\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8ed0da4c4d4d478546eb93e28a10ea\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Heatley knows; he will be the judge. That only compounds my concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260984b3f84bd49be9699d8148d7d2212\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve been operated on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04812814fb043598faa2dbfdc6a0ec9\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: He has been neutralised! People will say that farmers could reasonably be expected to know whether an alien species has arrived on their property. That is perfectly true. North Island farmers may be able to recognise that the varroa bee mite has infected a beehive, because they know how bees normally behave in that situation. But could a South Island farmer reasonably be expected to know what a varroa bee mite infestation looks like? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022759170f5b71449dd878f548609842df6\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: They are very small.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bded5ae0b13c40f98395e78b6420a48c\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: I am talking about the behaviour of the bees. Farmers, vets, stock agents, and people like that are the front line of our defences. They are the eyes and ears of our defences. They will almost certainly identify things, rather than Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officials. I believe it is incumbent on the ministry to establish and maintain very good working relationships with those people, because they literally are the eyes and ears of our defence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI will step to one side for a moment, and mention the relationships between the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the people of west Auckland. The handling of the painted apple moth incursion up there was a debacle. Even when I use the most encouraging phraseology possible, I cannot think that that was in any way a successful operation. Oh, yes, the ministry may have spent $90 million on the blanket spraying of west Auckland multiple times, and it may have just about eradicated the moth, but the public relations war with west Auckland residents has been largely lost. The ministry\u2019s behaviour over that incursion was despicable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI turn now to the reduced notice period for aerial spraying. I support the basic rationale for that, which is the idea that if something is invading a farm\u2014let us say foot-and-mouth, for argument\u2019s sake\u2014it is incumbent on the ministry, or whoever is responsible for getting rid of it to do so as soon as possible. If that requires aerial spraying, so be it. But to wait for 14 days before that can be done is simply ludicrous. We discussed that at some length in the Primary Production Committee, I seem to recall. We talked about whether to have 1 day\u2019s notice. The idea was that if one was spraying in remote areas, one needed to give farmers the opportunity to go back to the homestead, or to give people the opportunity to pick up their kids from school or to take the domestic pets away\u2014that sort of thing. In the end, we decided it was better to leave the provision with no specified notice period and to leave such notice to the discretion of the chief technical officer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI do have some doubts about that. I do not doubt the competence of the chief technical officers, and I think they would demonstrate a degree of flexibility in introducing aerial spraying very quickly. But they need to be aware of the problems that can be incurred if they immediately spray houses, domestic pets, children\u2019s schools, and so on, without any notice, at all. I am sure that is not what is intended, but I have a sneaky suspicion that maybe we need to do more in terms of specifying that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOverall, I see the amendments in this bill as being very good, but they tend to be like the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. The best way to keep New Zealand free of alien species, quite apart from not releasing GE species\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d43678c018e54afda10a357c1680bce3\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Ban all trade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4235d6211c6429082fb0e5ab6b375c8\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014is not to ban all trade, but to be very careful about how we trade and with whom we trade. We simply cannot afford to have destructive species like foot-and-mouth, the Asian gypsy moth, the glassy-winged sharpshooter, and whatever else, cross the border in the first place. It is much easier to keep them out than to eradicate them after they arrive. In recent years, biosecurity control at the border and at airports has improved out of sight. There is now something like a 100 percent inspection rate of people coming into the country, and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry calculates there is something like a 94 percent interception rate. We inspect 100 percent of all mail coming into this country. I have no problem with either of those two areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI do have concerns about the present scheme of inspecting only 24 percent of the 400,000 containers that come into this country, though I am very pleased with the recent Government initiative to move towards 100 percent decontamination or inspection at container devanning sites. My concern about that proposal, though, is that the Government wants the owners of the devanning sites to look after the biosecurity issue. That creates a potential conflict of interest, because on the one hand those people make their money by getting the goods out of the containers, into warehouses, and off to clients, and on the other hand the biosecurity aspects will only slow that process down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022677820a60bdd455dbe14d4b02c00c445\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022677820a60bdd455dbe14d4b02c00c445\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak on the Biosecurity Amendment Bill under the name of my esteemed colleague the Hon Jim Sutton, who is a hard-working and conscientious member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EI see in the commentary that the Act is the principal authority for actions to keep harmful organisms out of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed758c3c20b4409eab44a33923de13f3\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Would that apply to ACT?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8287406178b47f4901c31705632c06d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That would be the only amendment I would be tempted to move\u2014that it apply to the ACT party. There is no doubt that the ACT party is certainly a harmful organism for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWhen we look over the report of the Primary Production Committee, we see it is a very good one. It states: \u201CSurveillance forms an important part of New Zealand\u2019s biosecurity system. We are aware of New Zealand\u2019s heavy reliance on passive surveillance and agree more needs to be done to assist those who are in a position to provide early detection of an organism not normally seen in New Zealand.\u201D Of course, the good thing about the ACT party is that, at 3.2 percent in the polls, it is now starting to become a very endangered species, and more surveillance is needed because it is an organism that might no longer normally be seen in New Zealand. So we need to keep up the surveillance. Of course, as the report states, surveillance is important for \u201Cour front line defence against unwanted incursions\u201D. Certainly, the ACT party has been an unwanted incursion. The report also states there needs to be more support for people who are carrying out surveillance, and: \u201CThe duty to inform must be backed up by a comprehensive education campaign.\u201D I am certain that the Government will be continuing our high-profile education campaign on how we might keep biosecurity incursions, like the ACT party, out of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThis is very good legislation from a very good Minister in an extremely hard-working and progressive Government. I am very proud to support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00220a85d5fdb1624e3987b0e194d787dc89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a85d5fdb1624e3987b0e194d787dc89\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to hear the Minister of Transport. It would have been good if the Minister had got up to speed with the bill, because I know that many members are interested in the actual contents, both technical and factual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI was on the Primary Production Committee, and members will be well aware of that. We took on board this bill way back on 16 August 2001, when it was referred to the committee. The House is reading it now for the second time. My maths tells me that that is 2 years on. There has been no sense of urgency from the Government, and that is quite disheartening for us, because we did sweat hard over this bill. We know the significance and the importance of biosecurity to this nation. It is unfortunate that it has taken 2 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe can\u2014and members know this\u2014list a number of breaches of biosecurity since the Act was passed, particularly in the last 4 years. The painted apple moth has come up time and time again, but there has been a whole lot of other incursions. I would like to thank Marian Hobbs for the painted apple moth and various other pests! The 11 biosecurity incursions into this country include the Asian gypsy moth, which is not a Green Party member, but a bug that could hurt many of our crops. The fall web worm and crazy ants\u2014[Interruption] No, I tell Minister Dalziel, that is not a Green Party member. Other incursions are fire ants, mosquito larvae, Asian tiger mosquito larvae, the Sydney huntsman spider, and the Australian redback spider and eggs. It sounds like a tour of the world, does it not? When this Labour Government is in power, who needs to travel? We have had the North American southern ring-necked snake. Cane toads are coming, as well. When we drive home tonight we will hear all sorts of popping as we speed along the road, because cane toads from Australia are here. And we have had a solitary scorpion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo we have had visitors from Asia in the form of the Asian gypsy moth and Asian tiger mosquito larvae. From Sydney we have had the Sydney huntsman spider, the Australian redback spider, and the North American southern ring-necked snake. Who needs to travel the world? Who needs air points? Not one member in this Parliament does, because the world is coming to see us. Thank you, Marian Hobbs! The world of animals, the world of the invertebrate, are coming to visit us here in New Zealand. Eleven of them have come in the last 4 years. It is a hugely disappointing record from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOn 16 August 2001, the closing date for submissions was 24 September 2001, so members can appreciate how quickly we called for submissions. We closed them off and spent a lot of time speaking with the submitters, listening to them, and putting our thoughts into the bill as reported back, with its changes. I emphasise once again our frustration\u2014knowing how important biosecurity is for New Zealand\u2014that it has taken 2 years for the bill to come back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to go through various issues that we discussed during the select committee process. First of all, clause 9\u2014[Interruption] I can tell David Benson-Pope that, compared with those 11 visitors to this country from Australia, from Asia, from North America, and from around the globe, he is the most harmless incursion that Parliament has had in the last 4 years, or however long he has been sleeping here. Does anyone know how long David Benson-Pope has been sleeping here? He is the most harmless incursion that this country and this Parliament have had. I ask him to wake up and take a call later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EClause 9 gives the principal Act a slightly more punitive air. It targets pest management levies at those who either actively, or through their inactivity, cause a problem. I assume we will be talking more about clause 9 later on tonight. It is headed \u201CRestrictions on levies\u201D, and is a very punitive, user-pays or polluter-pays type of measure. It states that the persons who will undergo the punitive measure of levies are those who are likely to benefit from the implementation of the strategy\u2014that is, growers and those who raise animals. Anyone who is likely to benefit directly from the strategy will incur the levies. That is something we should consider during the Committee stage. But the levies also affect those who, either actively or inactively, create or exacerbate the problem of an incursion. Marian Hobbs, who has invited 11 different species from around the world into this country, could be defined as someone who has exacerbated the problem here in this country. That is the Government\u2019s immigration policy; it welcomes from around the world\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022678d24af834e4911a84406155a5e574b\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: All sorts of vermin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a6d2604892f49bb9ac6db0f03604d4c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014visiting invertebrates, snakes, and vermin. People like Marian Hobbs will incur a punitive measure under that user-pays or polluter-pays philosophy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo we addressed that issue. The next major issue that we addressed is in clause 18, which is about spraying programmes. Ian Ewen-Street, I think, talked a little about Auckland. He visited Auckland when the spraying programme was going on up there, and I know he is quite concerned about it. Most of us here in the House tonight can see the results of his visit. While many who have visited Auckland are reporting scratches and itches in all sorts of private places, Ian Ewen-Street has created a snow of his own with falling hair! That illustrates that there is a genuine concern in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EClause 18\u2014and, obviously, we will deal with this clause in the Committee stage\u2014is about the degree of notice that needs to be given to people living in a spray area. One can appreciate that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and those responsible for curbing the biosecurity risk\u2014curbing the incursion invited into this country by Marian Hobbs\u2014might want to act very, very quickly. One can appreciate how much the population of an incursion might explode in 2 weeks. Not all invertebrates, snakes, or vermin that enter the country will breed quickly. Some are quite slothful. It is as though they are asleep. I talked about David Benson-Pope, who is a harmless incursion; these incursions will move a lot faster than he does. For a start, they will be awake. We may need to act quickly, so we may have to reduce the time available to inform local residents that there is to be a spray programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIf there is that urgency, we can assume\u2014and the bill actually outlines this\u2014that although people will get a warning period that is shorter than 2 weeks, that warning will be as thorough as possible. We would not expect to see a small, inch-by-inch advertisement at the back of the local weekly community paper; we would hope instead that the warning would be advertised in the New Zealand Herald, on television, and so on. So in putting in that amendment\u2014narrowing down the time from 2 weeks to 24 hours in some cases\u2014we do say clearly that the notice must be advertised as thoroughly as possible, and I am sure the officials involved at the time will apply that rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022904d1f65cacd4722a2e76cd2753ff3b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022904d1f65cacd4722a2e76cd2753ff3b5\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (NZ Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E Although I recognise the humour that is passing backwards and forwards tonight on this bill, it is a very serious and very important biosecurity bill. I wish to support it, and also acknowledge the support of all members of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022bef043db55d74dbfb70810817d085ba3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bef043db55d74dbfb70810817d085ba3\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed her seat is quite correct; this is a very, very important amendment bill. I would like to start by paying tribute to some of the members on the Primary Production Committee for the work they did. First of all, I pay tribute to the work done by Gavan Herlihy, Shane Ardern, and, of course, my colleague Phil Heatley, who has just resumed his seat, having given a rather humorous, if not novel, but also very full and practical speech about the implications of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E Biosecurity is one of the key problems facing this economy, because, frankly, if we get an incursion we do not want, the economy could more or less come to a halt within a very short space of time. I used to work within the agricultural industry so things like foot-and-mouth disease, scrapie, mad cow disease\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245cc3ac782a7458f8685db67283a8e14\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Marian has all of those!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225adca578eb73400088885623831b6942\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure about that, but if any of the problems that are faced around the world were to come here, we would certainly have problems. One commentator from the agricultural industry said that if foot-and-mouth disease were to come to this country, the economy could potentially shut down within 3 months\u2019 time, such is our dependence on agriculture. Such is the concern about an incursion of that nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to go over a bit of the history of this portfolio, because it is a very, very important one, and when things go wrong in this area the impact can be huge. What did this Government do? It gave the portfolio to Marian Hobbs. She was the previous Minister for Biosecurity, and during her time as Minister we saw a number of incursions, a number of uninvited guests, that the rest of the country was not very keen on\u2014for example, the yellow flower wasp, the kentia palm seed borer, the southern saltmarsh mosquito, the avian pox virus, the lettuce aphid, the eastern flower thrip, and the Asian kelp, not to mention the varroa bee mite, which many bee-keepers got for Christmas from that particular Minister. Because of her inaction and inability to act in a timely manner, the whole problem became very out of control, and now is threatening the entire honey industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EBut let us also mention the painted apple moth. So far the cost has been about $90 million to try to deal with that particular problem. If money had been spent on biosecurity in the first place, the country would not have to fork out such a large amount of money now. That moth should not have got here in the first place. It was interesting listening to Mr Ian Ewen-Street talk about the spraying in Auckland. Initially I was very supportive of that spraying, as I understand the importance of the agricultural industry to this country. But, as a parent, I am concerned about the continual spraying of children, the elderly, and others, who do not know what is being sprayed on them. I am beginning to accept that people up there have some real concerns. I too would be livid if my family was being continually sprayed with something, and I did not have a clue what it was. Certainly, we are seeing some unwanted outcomes within the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis bill has some technical amendments but also some quite important ones. It reduces the time frame required before the ministry can act in relation to newly discovered pests. It also tidies up what the public need to do to inform the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry of any biosecurity incursions that they become aware of. Not to do so would be an offence, and the guilty person could be fined up to $5,000. I think it is quite important that we understand the impact of that. It sends a quite clear message that biosecurity is important to this country, and that if people do not play their part by telling the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry when they come into contact with incursions, a penalty may apply.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is important also to look once again at what the potential impact could be if we have problems in this area. Let us look at the value of some of the industries that are very much dependent on our keeping a lot of bugs and pests out of New Zealand. Horticulture and fruitgrowing, for example, are worth $847 million to the national economy. Livestock and cropping are worth $1,757 billion. Dairy cattle farming is worth $1,832 billion, and other farming is worth $332 million. Unwanted pests and diseases coming into this country could potentially have an impact on such major industries. One sees why biosecurity is something that this side of the House takes extremely seriously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI was concerned when I read a recent story about the way the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry goes about reviewing containers as they come into the country. Last year the ministry inspected about 24 percent of high-risk containers and randomly selected another 5 to 10 percent for internal inspection, which means an officer basically just shoves his head inside the container and has a wee look. I had expected that inspections would be far more thorough than that, but I was wrong. The ministry did a survey. For the first time the ministry did a thorough check, and containers that had already been \u201Cdoor inspected\u201D were inspected once again. The results of that particular investigation were very worrying. The officers found five live alien spiders and three insects, in 1,517 containers. That goes to show that once-over-lightly\u2014a head poked into the odd container\u2014does not pick up all the pests, bugs, and incursions that potentially can come into this country. Obviously, a far more thorough investigation needs to be made of containers when they come into this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EAs we know, that will have a cost, but what we are facing now in dealing with one particular incursion, the painted apple moth, shows that if incursions are not dealt with before they are established here, we face the cost of eradicating these pests and diseases. So, in a way, a biosecurity policy is very much an insurance policy. It is an insurance policy for the agricultural and horticultural industries\u2014an insurance policy against potential economic disaster should scrapie, mad cow disease, or a number of other real problems around the world threaten our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESo I am a great supporter of quarantining. I am a great supporter of ensuring that there are more stringent requirements both at the borders and in terms of the importation of goods. At the moment, trying to track down incursions is very much hit-and-miss. It does rely very much on the general public. I think the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry sometimes hopes that it has a bit of luck, and that somebody will discover something before it goes too far. But it relies very heavily also on having a Minister who will act in a timely manner and make decisions when those decisions are needed. The previous Minister\u2014thank goodness there has been a change\u2014did not really inspire great confidence in the hearts of the New Zealand public, particularly amongst those in the rural community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIncreased biosecurity does mean increased costs to the public, but, as I have said, it is an insurance policy and something that very much protects our economic prosperity and our ability to pay for the things we hold dear, like health services, education, etc. If we were to have a major incursion such as foot-and-mouth disease, potentially our economy could shut down within 3 months, and certainly we would go from being a First World country to being a Third World country in a very short amount of time. So I look forward to the Committee stage of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill, so that I can look at some of the individual clauses that members on this side still have some concerns about. We will be putting some amendments to make some improvements to what we think are holes in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022586e08acffda41e68222d2c48b060225\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00227f8833ab5c8b43d7a5658a479dd0cc5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f8833ab5c8b43d7a5658a479dd0cc5f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Biosecurity: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Biosecurity Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part, and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e2e304e139364a12a81ded5309b3f02f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f17bcf4121b4d50bdbd730eb6bbe93b\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022aac40804ea16465b86088d52b86e6d44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aac40804ea16465b86088d52b86e6d44\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Members will recall that I informed the Parliament that I was on the select committee, with various members who are sprinkled around the Chamber tonight, that considered this bill 2 years ago. At that time, the title \u201CBiosecurity Amendment Bill\u201D appeared to be a fair enough title. Of course we have the original legislation, the Biosecurity Act, and this bill makes amendments to it. They are smart amendments\u2014I might add, having had the fortune of meeting people across the table who were interested in and saw the significance of biosecurity in New Zealand. However, a lot has happened since then. We have had a large number of incursions in New Zealand. I listed those earlier, and, in order for the title to recognise the seriousness of these incursions, which it does not do at present, I suggest that instead\u2014and I might put an amendment forward later; I am not sure what other members might do\u2014the title should be the \u201CBiosecurity (Stamping Out Recent Incursions) Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI say that only because in recent years we have seen cane toads coming into this country, as well as the fall webworm, crazy ants, the Asian gypsy moth, the huntsman spider from Australia, the redback spider, the mosquito larvae, the North American ring-necked snake, the glassy-winged sharpshooter, the Argentine ant\u2014a visitor from Argentina, I assume\u2014and the varroa bee mite. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThat is why I talk about recent incursions, because in recent years we have had all these visitors from Australia, North America, and now Argentina. Why should not the title be the \u201CBiosecurity (Stamping Out Recent Incursions) Amendment Bill\u201D? I would be interested in other members commenting on that. This solution should have come before the Parliament a long time before now. As I have said, I was on the select committee over 2 years ago. I recall the urgency at the time. We have not seen any since. What we have seen is New Zealanders all around this country trying to stamp out, and not with bare feet, all these incursions into this country\u2014insects and vertebrates, snakes, glassy-winged sharpshooters, and on the list goes. I would be interested to see whether any other amendments in relation to the title come forward. I would be happy to support any sensible suggestions, but I certainly put my suggestion forward and ask that members look at it very, very seriously indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would be very hesitant to list in the title the names of all these visitors. Imagine doing that! It would be easy, though, for New Zealanders if they could look up the bill and find out when the Argentine ant or the glassy-winged sharpshooter came to New Zealand. I cannot remember when the cane toads arrived. All I know is that when I go down the driveway they pop. I cannot remember when they came, but I would like to look it up in the bill and find out when they visited New Zealand. It would be good if we had them listed in the title. The problem is that the title would be as long as the bill. Imagine that! Imagine having a title as long as the bill, and it would be as long as the bill because of all the visitors we have had to this country. I hesitate to go through them again\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022191236291bb549529482f95a449549c4\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: But you will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f4bbdca65e4456888169a9091f9f02\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not encourage me. I hesitate to go through them all again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022c89ddb108582449da6fa811bf5c327d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c89ddb108582449da6fa811bf5c327d9\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a relatively short call on the title of the bill. To speak on a relatively short title, \u201CBiosecurity Amendment Bill\u201D, is not an easy thing to do. The word that is lacking, I suspect, is \u201Cimportance\u201D or \u201Cimportant\u201D. Nothing in the title of the bill reflects the concerns expressed by everybody who understands just how important biosecurity is to this country. I have talked, as I said before, to farmers all over the country, and at Mystery Creek just recently. When I asked them what was their most important concern, the one overriding concern was biosecurity. Yet, when I read the title, and I guess that when a farmer or anybody reads in the paper tomorrow morning that the Biosecurity Amendment Bill was debated in Parliament, it will reflect nothing. Somebody from the city, for example, would think: \u201CWell, yes, I have heard of biosecurity and I guess it is something to do with stopping organisms.\u201D But I really think that in the title of these bills we need to inform the public so much more comprehensively about what we are debating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe are debating\u2014in my view, certainly from an agrarian\u2019s point of view\u2014probably one of the most important issues that we can possibly debate or talk about in this Parliament. Indeed, the pleasing thing, as I said earlier, is that there is such a large degree of unanimity. But, again, it is very, very difficult for members of the public to understand what goes in this Parliament unless the title of a bill accurately reflects the proceedings of the Parliament. Quite frankly, the \u201CHon Jim Sutton\u201D and \u201CBiosecurity Amendment Bill\u201D does not mean a great deal to most people, until they understand the importance and the commitment that it places on members of the public, because every one of us has a duty to ensure that our country\u2019s biosecurity is not compromised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E We have heard so many speeches from so many members on this side of the Chamber, detailing this huge list. Is it not extraordinary that this list seems to be rather large during the tenure of this current Government? Should not the title of the bill reflect the inadequate attention that this Government has paid to this problem? If I can answer my own question, I think it should. I note Janet Mackey nodding her head in total agreement. She is on the Primary Production Committee, and she is a good member I must say. She understands the significance of biosecurity to this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIt is regrettable that David Benson Pope, the chief Government whip, sits there, with probably no understanding of the huge importance of this bill to the average member of this Government. The only time he makes a speech is when he stands up to say: \u201CMadam Chair, I move that the motion be now put.\u201D That is the extent of the contribution of so many Government members, but I must say that on the Primary Production Committee we do get some worthwhile contributions from those who understand the significance of the rural sector. When was the last time the Prime Minister spoke about the rural sector, other than to give it a good swift kick and to milk more money from it? So the contribution that I would like to make at this particular point is that the title does not accurately reflect the importance to this country of such an overwhelmingly serious subject as biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022a33f88cc58674227a5d12b26e9df04c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a33f88cc58674227a5d12b26e9df04c8\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to agree with Gerry Eckhoff, who made some very valid points in his speech. He mentioned that biosecurity is vitally important. This actually has to do with the Biosecurity Amendment Act 2001. Does that ring some bells? This bill has been sitting here, while the Government wonders whether problems will spread as the painted apple moth has spread. The Government has left the bill on the Table since 2001. In fact, it goes back to August 2001, when it was introduced. The title clause 1(1) says it all: \u201C\u2026 the Biosecurity Amendment Act 2001.\u201D This Government has sat on this bill, when biosecurity is one of the most important aspects of our economy, and when there are dangers to our economy from incursions of organisms that will damage our livestock, and particularly our bees. When the varroa bee mite came into this country, the Government, once more, sat on that incursion. It did not know what to do with that problem, in the same way that it did not know what to do with this bill that has been sitting there since 2001. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe Government has allowed all of those other incursions to occur because it was too slow in getting this bill into the House and to the Table for proper debate. The Government has waited all of that time, and now, under urgency, we are trying to get the bill through quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI ask why the bill was not brought in under urgency a long time ago. Why has it sat there for 2 years while other incursions have occurred? We have a list of those incursions, and I will not attempt to repeat the long list of them given by a previous speaker, because it would probably take us all night to get through them all. It would probably take us to 2005 while we waited for this bill to come through the House again. But biosecurity is one of the most important aspects of our economy, and to leave this bill sitting there since 2001, to be enacted as the Biosecurity Amendment Act 2001, is a disgrace. This Government really needs to get off its backside and sort out our biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u002241f8b5dc9cbb4822a9d737421a1dea0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241f8b5dc9cbb4822a9d737421a1dea0f\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very brief call, but after listening to the last two speakers, who said that they were struggling with the title, it suddenly came to me what we should have. They did not offer us an alternative, but it suddenly came to me in a flash that the correct title for this bill should be the \u201CThank God for United Future Who Have Given Support This Week for Urgency, so This Biosecurity Amendment Bill Could Go Through Bill\u201D. That could be a useful amendment, and I hope we will move on to other more substantive parts of the bill very soon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u002274c25bef041e43c08639fac1aec98a95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002274c25bef041e43c08639fac1aec98a95\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E That is not a very novel title for the bill. I do not know whether God will be very interested in this bill, once He reads it. I think that He will be a bit concerned, rather, about it being about biosecurity when really what is contained in this bill is more about bio-risk. I think that the name of the bill should be the \u201CBio-risk Amendment Bill\u201D, because if we look at the long list of incursions we have had since the 1930s, such as the Avondale spider\u2014and we have listed a number of others\u2014there have been about 10 just before\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022024e4499d3264cf5898dbb26981a2d9f\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: They are from my home town. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224379c9c957504afeb6b52932ddbbbaa8\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: That is the home town of the member from New Zealand First. Before about 1999 there were only 10 incursions, but what is really upsetting is that there have been seven during the term of this Government. So, getting back to the title, if we are looking at being secure, or incorporating some sort of feeling of security into the name of the bill, I think that is quite misleading. Certainly during the time of the previous Minister it was a case of \u201CLet\u2019s all head for the New Zealand borders.\u201D, with the yellow flower wasp and the kentia palm seed borer, not to mention the southern saltmarsh mosquito and, once again, the avian pox virus\u2014my personal favourite\u2014the lettuce aphid, and the eastern flower thrips. Now rather than having a secure border, it has been very insecure, because a lot of things have come in and threatened the agricultural and horticultural industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we are looking in particular at the incursion of the varroa bee mite, which was one of the first issues the Minister had to deal with, I think we could incorporate some reference to that in the title, and one of my suggestions is that we call the bill the \u201CChristmas Came Early and Marian Gave Us Varroa Bee Mite Bill\u201D. I can see a lot of nodding heads from around the Chamber, of people thinking that that is quite an improvement to the name of the bill. Another option is that we could call this bill the \u201CSpray People with Chemicals Because I Couldn\u2019t be Bothered Spending It at the Border Bill\u201D, because that is certainly the way a lot of people from west Auckland whom I have spoken to feel. They were quite happy to play along with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry first of all, but after successive sprays I think that their tolerance has worn thin. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI also think that it has become quite an important issue for this country, because if we look at the number of incursions just in the last few years, we see that they are coming thick and fast. Rather than getting better at managing biosecurity, I think that things are not very secure, and the present title we have has become somewhat misleading. This bill really should be more aptly titled the \u201CLuck of the Draw and Catch a Few Greeblies if You Are Lucky Bill\u201D, because at the moment we have seen the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry rely very heavily on the general public to do its job for it. We have already heard in previous speeches that very few of the containers at ports actually get checked\u2014somewhere between 5 and 10 percent. So it is very much the luck of the draw in terms of getting a number of these incursions when they should be discovered\u2014that is, when they first come in. A pest or insect would probably have to be very unlucky to be caught by the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, because if we look at those other invaders, I think all of them have been identified by the general public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is important that we have a bill that is correctly titled, and that reflects the important nature of the legislation, so I have put forward some suggestions and look forward to hearing others from my colleagues on this side of the Chamber about how the bill could be more appropriately titled. It is important that we have a bill with a name that people can identify with, and look at and immediately know what it is about. Quite simply, to imply that this bill is about security after such a staggeringly poor track record of letting so many pests and greeblies into New Zealand, we say that the bill has nothing about security at all. It has everything to do with bio-risk, so that is why I have made some suggestions for the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002202a73015983248509244d7f3c49f47a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202a73015983248509244d7f3c49f47a6\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ca3ff477816645cba156a24224451f11\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to, and clause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5bd71a92848423db16908acf3e78af4\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022434265b1f0cd4f21bee47a03a975b860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022434265b1f0cd4f21bee47a03a975b860\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to be able to speak to clause 2. I would like to talk about the commencement date. It is an absolute tragedy that this bill has a commencement date of maybe tomorrow or maybe 2 weeks from now. This should have been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229190b1a2e10a4d759034426e9359d614\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: It should have been 2 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220e15a5e907444518a151b0e821ca297\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. It should have been 2 years ago, in 2001. It is an absolute tragedy that it has had to wait as long as this. We fully understand the importance of biosecurity, on this side of the Chamber\u2014that is, my colleagues over here, excluding the ones over there, and we all know to whom I am referring. This commencement date is a tragedy. Only 7 months ago we had several reports on biosecurity\u2014I have a pile of press releases here about incursions. Here is one from 9 January, which talks about New Zealand being ill-prepared to meet any looming biosecurity threat. Here is another one from January: \u201CEye out for agriterror\u201D, stating that how New Zealand reacts is a key to dealing with agricultural contamination. It is a huge issue for New Zealand. The consequences are absolutely enormous, and I will elucidate on that later in my presentation. I am sure I will probably far exceed the 5 minutes allotted to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EHere is another one on 17 January: \u201CSearch intensifies for foreign mozzie\u201D. Of course members have heard my learned colleague speak about the range of pests. I am sure I will be forced at some stage to go through that list again, but for the moment we are talking about the headline \u201CSearch intensifies for foreign mozzie\u201D on 17 January. So far I have hit only January and that is three press releases already. There are still a lot more. Here is another one for January, so this is the fourth one: \u201CMan admits importing tussock moth eggs\u201D. Here is a gentleman actually importing them, so that is another one that was missed. This is the absolute\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213482e95c162485c906419a4c65fbb84\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: No, we caught it. How else was it reported?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e109cf46f34980b75d0767b8be5579\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: I beg the member\u2019s pardon? \u201CMan admits importing tussock moth eggs\u201D\u2014this is one that was caught. How many more are actually getting through? So far we have four press releases for January alone. I cannot remember any other time in the history of my time in agriculture that we have ever had incursions to this degree, and the Government has allowed this Biosecurity Amendment Bill to languish on the shelves for 2 whole years while this has been going on. We had four activities in January alone. Now I will move on to February: \u201CAuckland to battle the eucalypt leaf moth\u201D. Then here we go, on 27 February in the Dominion Post: \u201CAnother moth gets out\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis reminds me of one of the problems they have with the painted apple moth in Auckland. I remember when they first wanted to do something about the painted apple moth. There was a whole heap of resistance to the initial spraying round. Where did that resistance come from? It came from the Green Party, if I recall. Oh it came from the Greens, certainly, the real fundamentalist greenies who did not understand the importance of immediate eradication, and did not want to understand the huge impact, not only on the rural sector, but on the nation\u2019s economy, affecting all the people of the nation. I have the substantial figures here. The net present value of the estimated impact of this painted apple moth is $58 million to $364 million. That is the impact, and what did the Greens want to do? They wanted to gather the painted apple moths together. They wanted to burn them and sprinkle their ashes in the neighbourhood, in the hope that the rest of the painted apple moths would go away. But where would they go? They would just go away into another neighbourhood. This is the type of suggestion the Greens are making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1e8dfc2c8184ad4b42331a1e2463775\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1e8dfc2c8184ad4b42331a1e2463775\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Sandra Goudie had some very good points there, particularly with regard to the time delay. Clause 2 states that the bill will come in immediately, but that should have been 2 years ago, as Sandra Goudie said. This Government sat on its hands for 2 years and waited. It\u2014wait for it\u2014commissioned a report to see how well biosecurity was doing. That report told us what we already knew from the experience of departments sitting on their hands and doing nothing about all the other incursions. This report told us that biosecurity management was a disaster. In the meantime the Government waited for that report before this bill came back to the Chamber. The bill came back, and now is coming into force immediately after it receives the royal assent. That royal assent should have been given to the bill 2 years ago. The Government should not wait for these reports. They should bring the bill to the House, not wait for these reports. The Government waited, as it did with the painted apple moth, because it did not know whether it should eradicate it or just contain it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, the painted apple moth spread rapidly. Then, when the Government finally decided it was going to eradicate it, the moth had gone way beyond the area the Government had decided to eradicate it from. So by sitting and waiting, by sitting on this bill and not allowing it to come back to the House, the Government has left the door open for other incursions to spread. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe have heard here tonight of numerous incursions. The varroa bee mite has spread throughout the country because the Government was not sure whether it should be eradicating it or just containing it. In the meantime, it got into the feral bee population and spread throughout that population, which meant it was no longer possible to eradicate it from the natural hives, because they are too numerous. So by waiting 2 years to bring this bill back to the House, the Government has wasted a lot of time and allowed a lot more incursions to spread.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb0e41b976144223a4c5607be6f04ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb0e41b976144223a4c5607be6f04ae4\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E One of the great things about being in a debating chamber\u2014well, it is one of the things I would have thought was great about being here\u2014is that we enter into a debate. Surprise, surprise! What do we hear from the Government on these issues? We hear the immortal words uttered by Mr David Parker: \u201CMadam Speaker, I move that the motion be now put.\u201D That is not debating this bill. It is not debating the commencement clause. Mr Mark Peck\u2014that well-known cold-climate sex symbol from Invercargill\u2014sits there doing absolutely nothing, not being prepared to debate this bill, and not being prepared to debate the commencement date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe have heard very good speeches from Mr Brent Catchpole and Sandra Goudie, telling the Committee, and New Zealand, that this Government is now saying, under urgency, that this bill is important. Yet the bill sat there for 2 years. What are we supposed to consider when we talk about the commencement date of this bill? Every one of us on this side of the Chamber, I am sure, would have said that the commencement date should have been 2 years ago, when the public of this country demanded it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI find it quite extraordinary\u2014and I think it is important to recognise it\u2014that not that long ago we sat in the House until 5 in the morning, under extraordinary urgency, debating a hugely important issue! Here we are discussing biosecurity, which is obviously hugely important, but what issue did we debate until 5 o\u2019clock in the morning, a month or so ago\u2014Mississippi moonshine!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275bcfd080ef5438da2c7b7996535fc38\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: And the sherries and the ports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a6397d1ba64a7baed0bc506457181d\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: That is the stuff! Those are the sorts of priorities we are getting from this Government. It has failed totally to understand that the commencement date of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill should have been 2 years ago. What is it going to be into the future, once this bill is passed? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EDespite criticism of the Government\u2019s handling of the bill, there is a consensus that we need to proceed with real haste on its commencement. However, if the Government is true to form, the commencement will be what\u20142 years\u2019 time, 3 years\u2019 time? Members on the Government side shrug their shoulders, so we have no idea when the bill might commence. The people of this country are calling constantly for action from the Government on this issue, yet Government members sit on their hands, passing bills like the \u201CMississippi Moonshine (Let\u2019s Tax \u2019Em) Bill\u201D, which increased the tax on 23 percent-proof alcohol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EOf course, that sort of legislation is of some importance, but I would have thought that any Government worth its salt would have recognised the importance of the commencement date of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill, instead of allowing it to languish, as it did, for 2 years on the Order Paper. The commencement date of the bill should have been at least 2 years ago, when the opportunities were there. However, the Government pushed in other bits of legislation that it considered more important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI have some advice for the Government: do a poll. This is a poll-driven Government, so it should go out and poll the people of this country on when the Biosecurity Amendment Bill should have been enacted. The Government would be berated for its inaction and procrastination on this bill\u2014that is the only way to describe it\u2014and for its inability to recognise that a Government must set priorities and recognise what is important to the people of the country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe Government must recognise that the incursion rate under its stewardship has been appalling. Marian Hobbs can stand up in the House and say: \u201CWell, we\u2019ve had a good week, haven\u2019t we? We\u2019ve only had three incursions.\u201D If the issues were not so terribly serious, that statement would be laughable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8ca53d7ba3342d49ff820f8fcef6dcb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8ca53d7ba3342d49ff820f8fcef6dcb\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225fe45fcaa50c4bfcb1cee51b7f7c1951\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000950\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002293fc0882b4124c3faeb2ef5fc9d215e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293fc0882b4124c3faeb2ef5fc9d215e0\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. This debate is probably the most important we will be having. It affects New Zealand\u2019s viability, its position in the world, and its security. In the last part you called one member from National, and one from the other three parties, in 15 minutes of debate. Two other National Party members were seeking the call, and I would have thought that on such important legislation, you would have accepted those calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002219101c45482549fe94ef440391ec9b21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219101c45482549fe94ef440391ec9b21\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the next section\u2014clauses 3 to 25 in Part 1\u2014is certainly the main part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022437e987cb4df4e4481cb539557865637\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7805dd5218a425daabd3b7b6941939c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7805dd5218a425daabd3b7b6941939c\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I was very disappointed not to take a call on clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D. It was an important clause, and it was very disappointing that the National Party had only one speech. Part 1 is also very important because basically it sets out the guts of the changes. It sets out the importance of the processing of unaccompanied goods, the duty of the general public to let the ministry know if they see an incursion of some sort, and the importance of penalties, which are to be expected if members of the public do not do their duty and let the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry know when there are pests or incursions that put our economy at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI confirm my colleague Lindsay Tisch\u2019s comment that this bill will greatly affect the whole health of the economy. If we get it wrong, and something comes in\u2014as we have seen under the management of Marian Hobbs, the first Minister for Biosecurity\u2014the effect on the economy could be dire. Members should look at what the painted apple moth has done to Auckland. Ninety million dollars is being spent there to get rid of that moth. Had changes been made at the border and the painted apple moth been caught, that money could have gone into health and education. The bill is short, but we will take our time debating it, as we need to do justice to quite an important subject.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf we look again at the Government\u2019s track record on biosecurity, we have deep, deep concerns. Since the 1930s there have been only about 10 major incursions, but since this Government took over and handed the reins to Marian Hobbs\u2014it obviously thought this was a very important portfolio\u2014we have seen floods of incursions into this country. As I mentioned earlier, there were the yellow flower wasp, the kentia palm seed borer, two lesser-known but very damaging incursions, such as the saltmarsh mosquito\u2014[Interruption] Ian Ewen-Street is giving me the benefit of his knowledge in this area by listing a few others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225089eb97b9441059b42f617d5a80a48\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: And Clayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00226339ccd5f42342d7b7d2354fa1c46187\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226339ccd5f42342d7b7d2354fa1c46187\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH:\u003C/span\u003E And Clayton Cosgrove. I have just seen two members from the Opposition parties walk in\u2014two most damaging incursions\u2014one being Murray McCully and the other Rodney Hide. They have seen how important this debate is, so have graced the Committee with their presence. I do hope those members take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d81b870f61174adf98cd919d59f3b015\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Parekura Horomia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00222e71d393921c4ffd849b3e7dc2dea1dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e71d393921c4ffd849b3e7dc2dea1dd\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH:\u003C/span\u003E Parekura Horomia is mentioned here as coming in in 1999\u2014no, that is the banjo frog. He is mentioned as one of the more harmless incursions to be inflicted upon the New Zealand economy, but is certainly costing this country a lot of money as we speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn terms of the amendments to Part 1, it is important to talk about some of the changes we are expecting in this bill. I think it is worthwhile talking about changes to the regional pest management strategy\u2014such as how the Government will try to deal with things like the ever-extending varroa bee mite, which is causing a shudder in beekeeping circles around the world. We also need to look at the contents of the levy provisions. It is called a levy but it is nothing more than another tax. A Government that said it would not introduce any new taxes has introduced at least 15 in the past 3 years, and others are included in this amendment bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E As I have said, this bill has nothing to do with biosecurity. It is more to do with bio-risk, because we have seen incursion after incursion. Going through the vast number of invaders that have been inflicted on the New Zealand population has certainly been a science lesson for me. It is not surprising, given that 5 to 10 percent only of the containers that come into the country are looked at. It is a very unlucky pest that is caught by our Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, that is for sure. It really has to be an unlucky incursion to be caught at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5dbc5a8023a44a4a2fc3ee6affe3303\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5dbc5a8023a44a4a2fc3ee6affe3303\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call on Part 1 because there are a number of areas that concern us, and I think the provisions should be a little tighter. First of all, under clause 6, which inserts new section 44, we find the general duty of people to report the discovery of new organisms. It is great that people are required to report those discoveries, but there should be some additional support for those people, because I would hate to see someone fail to report an organism, or resist reporting it, out of the fear that it would cost them money to have it eradicated. As Gerry Eckhoff mentioned earlier on, there was an incident where a farmer failed to report what he thought was an incursion of a weed that was listed as noxious and dangerous. He kept that quiet for 15 years and attempted to eradicate it himself, but it turned out to be nothing more than an Australian cousin of a noxious weed, and it was quite welcome here. The failure to report an incident is something that this bill tries to overcome, but the mechanism to support people, so they do not fear that they will have to bear the full costs of the eradication, is absent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAnother clause is to do with the regional pest management strategies. Pest management is something that needs to have an overall strategy. I would hate to see one region come up with a strategy to develop its programmes, and another neighbouring region come up with a strategy that conflicts with or is not compatible with it. Ultimately, an incursion in one area could slip across to a neighbouring region, and there could be a conflict regarding whose responsibility it is to deal with it. That is another area that we feel should be examined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe are also concerned about the levy. This Government is basically setting up another tax. It calls it a levy, but this Government will call a tax by any name other than a tax. It calls a tax everything but a tax. So here is another tax coming in to make sure that this Government continues. It calls the tax a levy so that it can say it has not introduced any more taxes, but this is another tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EClause 19 provides for the power to examine an organism when that organism is assumed to be an incursion. Without a database to match that power against, and without the knowledge and the background that a database would provide in support of those examinations, some of those organisms have spread very quickly\u2014and have done so for a long time. When an organism was found not to be on the list of dangerous organisms for this country, it had to be put on that list before we could do anything about it. That mechanism just does not work, because inspectors do not have the time to mess around waiting for an organism to appear on a list before they can go and examine it, and decide that it is dangerous and should be eradicated. That list needs to be updated regularly, and a database needs to be put together of the organisms present in our overseas trading partners that are a potential danger to us. If we do not have knowledge about an organism before it arrives, how are we to handle it quickly? Without that knowledge, we will hang around and leave the organism to spread before we do something about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002257d7999e6ed2473fbfe555e01bc2818e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257d7999e6ed2473fbfe555e01bc2818e\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very important debate, and I am privileged to be able to take part in it. There is nothing more important to New Zealand than our biosecurity, but I want to mention one particular clause in particular, clause 4. Clause 4 states: \u201C(3) Section 7 of the principal Act is amended by adding the following subsection:\u201D, which relates to the provisions of the Wildlife Act. Mr Catchpole spoke earlier about the fact that ferret farmers could be put out of business by that particular clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to make it very clear that under section 7 of the Wildlife Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c0a82151d4041ba88a3fb9e14174f5b\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Brent Catchpole now writes Lindsay Tisch\u2019s speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166aab999cdd416ea22783db975ea388\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Clause 4 is amended by Supplementary Order Paper 96 in the name of the Hon Jim Sutton. Section 7C of the Wildlife Act, \u201CFarming certain unprotected animals\u201D, states: \u201C(1) No person shall farm, breed, or sell, or capture or convey or keep in captivity for the purposes of farming, breeding, or selling, any wildlife specified in the Eighth Schedule to this Act unless any such activity is authorised by the Minister pursuant to section 41 \u2026\u201D. The Eighth Schedule, \u201CWildlife not protected but may be kept, bred, or farmed in captivity pursuant to regulations made under principal Act or by Minister\u2019s direction\u201D, includes ferrets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe point is that by inserting clause 4 in the bill, it simply means there is no security for the people who were involved in the breeding of ferrets in the long term. There are three licensed breeders in New Zealand, and the breeder who is a constituent of mine has 2,000 breeding ferrets this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b46af7b5a03a4764ad7114dcb295b3f1\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317fc94664b444bd9d47c6fd305f0d33\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not laugh about it; I am talking about a million-dollar business. That enterprise will export 7,500 ferrets this year, worth $1 million. He also employs five people full-time in his business. Any ferrets that are sold domestically are desexed. Ferrets are not an issue out in people\u2019s homes. In fact, if they were to get loose, they would not survive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef88af992965420898a3837f8d004aff\u0022\u003EJanet Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Says who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228761bf4459114fe1952ffc3bf905b382\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: They would not survive, because they are domestic ferrets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234dbd8e9307047ea8aad3f8d95102750\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What are their names?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e45014284af49b2a5bc46bf4c2cbf4f\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a joke of such an important industry. I am sure that if that breeder is listening tonight, he will not be impressed by the nature of what this Government has in mind for his industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe question I want to ask the Minister is whether that breeder will be able to sell his million-dollar enterprise. Will his family be able to take over that enterprise? We are seeing, under this legislation, that that person will be down and out. He has nowhere to go. This Government says that it wants consultation and the opportunity to grow the economy. Here we have a million-dollar business that will be left on the scrap heap, and Government members are laughing about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to take a call and answer four simple questions for me. Firstly, does clause 4 affect the viability and future security of my constituent in the Piako electorate? Secondly, will that person be able to continue his farming operation and to export ferrets? Thirdly, will he be able to sell his business to somebody else, or will his family be able to take it over? The fourth question relates to the domestic market. Will he be able to sell ferrets on the domestic market? There is a huge domestic market. Those are simple questions, and I ask the Minister to answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022e44b4f227cac4a25808db9a613538257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e44b4f227cac4a25808db9a613538257\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to take a call on Part 1 of this bill. I draw it to the Committee\u2019s attention again that, among the opportunities this Committee would normally expect, would be the opportunity to debate the bill. Although I certainly appreciate hearing the contributions of my colleagues, I would deem it to be a small favour if a Government member would condescend to stand and give us his or her offering on this very important subject. I do not even mind if Government members get Brian Edwards down to Parliament to coach them on this subject, and to tell them what to say. I see one or two members on the Government side of the Chamber have had a new haircut\u2014it is all starting to show already. I think the public demands that Government members should stand and contribute to this debate, rather than just using that old sentence, \u201CMr Speaker, I move that the question be now put.\u201D, which we constantly hear. A debate is not a debate unless there are two opposing sides contributing to a subject\u2014and this particular subject is very, very important. Regrettably, the Government is steadfastly refusing to contribute. Well, I will just carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI would like to draw to the Committee\u2019s attention that clause 6 inserts a new section 44, \u201CGeneral duty to inform\u201D, which states: \u201CEvery person is under a duty to inform the Ministry, as soon as practicable in the circumstances, of the presence of what appears to be an organism not normally seen or otherwise detected in New Zealand.\u201D Does this Committee really expect Joe Bloggs, an ordinary member of the public, to know the difference between nassella tussock and Australian sedge? I would suspect that most farmers do not know the difference between them. But there is a way that we can help people to do so, and that is through education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI have already mentioned in this Committee a very, very good programme called Border Patrol, which I believe screens on a Monday evening. The public really warmed to that form of important information\u2014it is not just entertainment. It is put forward in a very constructive and an informative manner, and in such a way that the public understands and absorbs the lessons that that particular programme puts across. In other words, we should be having more of those sorts of informative programmes like Border Patrol for the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI hesitate to say this, but it would seem quite logical to follow the Australian example of screening programmes during the intermission at major sporting events that inform the public of Australia about the importance of issues such as biosecurity. The programmes ask whether people have seen any examples of a particular product or organism, and then advise the public to call the local equivalent of our Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officers if they have seen anything. Those programmes go nationwide at a time when a very, very large portion of the public is watching the television screen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWhy can we not learn from that, and do something very similar to it, perhaps during a half-hour programme shown once or twice a year at the prime time of 7.30? Why can we not have more of those sorts of initiatives? Why can we not have some more really informative programmes that show the people of this country just how important it is that if they do come across something they are not very sure of, they then inform the appropriate authorities? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI listened with some interest to my colleague from the Green Party, who was talking about genetic modification, and about how important it is that the public are informed about that. I thought that was rather strange. I can just imagine people going to a restaurant and saying to the waiter that there is a genetically modified organism in their soup. That would be a very difficult thing to prove, unless they happened to have an electron microscope with them at their table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c149ca355dc341cea1293ec562e0edb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c149ca355dc341cea1293ec562e0edb0\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E We are discussing a very important bill, on a very important subject. I just want to make a few comments about a couple of the clauses in Part 1, and specifically about clause 18, which reduces the notice period for aerial spraying from 2 weeks to 24 hours where a longer notice period would seriously damage the chance of containing or eradicating an undesirable organism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe Primary Production Committee considered that even 24 hours may be too long a period in some cases, and recommended instead that the chief technical officer could reduce the current 2-week notice period to the extent necessary in order to avoid prejudice to the eradication of an organism. The committee drew on the experience of the discovery of the southern saltmarsh mosquito infestation near Napier in 1999, which required immediate spraying before the larvae matured and were allowed to fly and spread over a larger area. The organisms in respect of which a shorter notification may be given are organisms that are not already established in New Zealand or are restricted to certain areas, and that have the potential to cause significant negative economic, health, or environmental problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOf course, we did not have a member on the select committee in the previous Parliament when the report was completed, but after looking at this bill and being asked whether we would support it, there were only a couple of things that we were concerned about. One of those was that the reduced notice period for spraying potentially gives the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry an arbitrary power without regard to the social costs. Accordingly, we asked the Government to look at including a provision for ministerial sign-off, to ensure that a degree of political accountability would be there with that decision. I express our thanks to the Minister and the officials who have taken that concern seriously and included it in Supplementary Order Paper 96 in the name of the Hon Jim Sutton, which we will be voting on in a short while. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOur concern is that in cases where the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry may have messed up by not acting quickly enough to control an outbreak\u2014which occurred with the painted apple moth in west Auckland\u2014people have to suffer the consequences by being sprayed on. The amendment we have obtained requires that the chief technical officer has to notify the Minister if he or she considers that the 2-week notice requirement for aerial spraying would significantly prejudice the chances of eradicating or containing the organism, and, if practicable, acquire the Minister\u2019s approval. Some will say that that constitutes a very minor change, but it ensures a modicum of political accountability for the decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe think that that new provision is of significance, because it will mean that the decision is not made just by a Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry official but also by the Minister, who is an elected representative of the people, and who will therefore be prepared to take into account the social and political consequences of spraying people in their homes and communities. The Minister will also be accountable because he will have a greater awareness of the social cost of the action to be taken\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022641887aeebf446b0bc1fed71845717d4\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Or she.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f427d5e727904fed9820a81584434ded\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or she will; I ask members to forgive me for showing any kind of gender bias there. So we ask the other parties in this House to vote for that amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI also want to comment on clause 19(2), which probably requires some explanation. It amends section 121 of the principal Act by extending the power to recover costs when a person fails to comply with a direction. In other words, if a farmer with a suspected case of TB amongst his cattle is asked to muster them for inspection and does not, then the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry can recover the costs of doing so. Supplementary Order Paper 96 contains an amendment that relates to that clause. It provides the power to examine organisms, and it also does other things to establish the presence of a pest. It extends those provisions to pest agents, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe in United Future believe that those additions to the bill are sensible amendments. We will be giving them our support, and we urge other members of the Committee to do so, also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00224fa7af824889494daac8a4c201a21194\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224fa7af824889494daac8a4c201a21194\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to focus on a couple of the clauses that we focused on during the select committee deliberations, the first of which is clause 9, \u201CRestriction on levies\u201D. Clause 9 gives section 92(1) a slightly more punitive air, and I talked a little bit about that earlier. Pest management levies are actually targeted at those who have contributed to the pest\u2019s incursion or spread. They might have contributed actively by doing something stupid or sinister\u2014that is, a deliberate act\u2014or otherwise. They might have been inactive and overlooked an obvious situation where they could have prevented an incursion, or they might have overlooked an opportunity to report the incursion, or otherwise. So there is the issue of active contribution to the spread of the incursion, and the inactive, or passive, spread.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291ba3e5d302d40d793f11cc4d547548d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The working Minister, Mr Cunliffe, is in the chair now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280a1e3b872b644eb9e9b3587bd12a453\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, so one could argue that the punitive measures are user-pays or polluter-pays. Paragraph (d)(i), inserted by clause 9, states that the levy means to target \u201Cpersons likely to benefit from the implementation of the strategy;\u2019\u2019. In the case of moths and all those invertebrates and visitors from overseas that have come into the country since Marian Hobbs has been at the helm, or in the case of dry stock farmers, sheep farmers, and dairy farmers throughout the country who have viruses, diseases, bacteria, and so on, one could argue that they are likely to benefit from the implementation of the strategy. So one would hope, although, clearly, they have not seen that in the last 4 years, with at least 11 incursions from around the globe into our country\u2014that being Labour Party immigration policy. As stated in paragraph (d)(ii), the levy also targets \u201Cpersons who by their activities or inaction contribute to the creation, continuance, or exacerbation of the problems proposed to be resolved by the strategy;\u201D. So that means those who were active, or inactive and created the problem, and might have continued or exacerbated the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMembers will see that clause 24 relates to penalties for people involved in the problem. Clause 25 talks about those persons who do not notify appropriate authorities where it is reasonably expected that they should know that an incursion has occurred, and that such an incursion could wreak havoc in our horticulture, forestry, and agricultural industries. One would expect that to be the case in the agricultural industry. One would expect veterinarians, farmers, and those who have contact with animals to recognise diseases. In the horticultural industry, one would expect farm advisors, horticulturalists themselves, fruit packers, and people in charge of cool-stores should recognise any incursion. So if we can reasonably expect those people to recognise an incursion and if they do not report that incursion, they will incur a hefty fine of up to $5,000. We can see that from clauses 24 and 25. So clause 9, \u201CRestrictions on levies\u201D actually relates to those types of people. Through their activity or inactivity, they can incur levies or, due to a serious recognisable fault, they can incur penalties. That is the association between clauses 9, 24, and 25. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EClause 18 deals with spraying programmes. Usually, and up to this date, there is a 2-week opportunity for officials in the ministry to let a community know that they might have to put up with aerial spraying. One can appreciate that if there is an incursion and officials have to act quickly, they might have to so in a shorter time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022adadd84e7cff4a33b4e8b03742d7f7b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adadd84e7cff4a33b4e8b03742d7f7b9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very important bill, and we now have the shiny new Minister, the Hon David Cunliffe, in the chair. Members of the Opposition have some questions for this Minister. With his Harvard education, we know that he will be able to answer them. I refer him to clause 9, and I wonder whether he could explain to the Committee the nature of these levies, and whether the Government is envisaging those levies to be a pigovian tax or a user-pays charge. Just what does the Government have in mind? I know that this shiny, sharp new Minister will be more than anxious to take a call and answer that question. The Minister is on the big salary now; he has the big car and the big office up in the Beehive. It is time he started to do some work and stand up as a Minister and explain to this Parliament and to the people of New Zealand quite what these levies are. If he does not, I am afraid that the public of New Zealand can conclude only one thing\u2014that the bright, shiny new Minister does not know. Of course, we have had that experience before with this Minister\u2019s member\u2019s bill about triple-bottom-line accounting. It was talked about, but it was all mouth and no trousers. That bill did not see the light of day, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI also refer members to clause 23, which, to me, is extraordinary. I draw it to the attention of our colleagues in the National Party, New Zealand First, and the Green Party. I have never seen this before. Clause 23, \u201CLevies\u201D states: \u201CSection 137(1) of the principal Act is amended by inserting, before the word \u2018Minister\u2019, the word \u2018responsible\u2019.\u201D I ask members to have a think about that for a minute. I used to believe\u2014and I am sure that members in the National Party used to believe\u2014that Ministers were responsible automatically. But this Government brings in a bill under urgency, amends it, and says: \u201CIn this particular case, we\u2019re going to make the Minister responsible.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EIt would be the first time, would it not, that Helen Clark or Michael Cullen has ever said that a Minister should be responsible for anything? Time after time in this House, they get up and say: \u201CI\u2019m not responsible for that. That is an operational issue.\u201D, or they say\u2014[Interruption] David Benson-Pope wants to pinch some Opposition time rather than take a call himself. I hope you are watching this, Mr Chairman, because it is very clear that the Committee does want to debate Part 1. It is just that the members of the Government are not allowed to. Even the Minister in the chair is under riding instructions not to take a call. How come?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8fe6fce171c4b29a3dfe4f0ba0510b1\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Is he responsible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a36b2640c8d34f14998e94bada656cc0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: No, he is not responsible because there is no section 137(1) that inserts the word \u201Cresponsible\u201D before the word \u201CMinister\u201D. Would we not be so much better off in New Zealand if we had a Government that took it as read that the Minister was responsible? Annette King is not responsible for anything. Michael Cullen is not responsible for anything. Mark Burton is not conscious of anything, let alone responsible for anything. Parekura Horomia cannot read, cannot see, cannot know, and is constantly confused. He is not responsible. The Minister in the chair cannot even get his own bills up and running. What is it called, that mad thing that the left is on about? [Interruption] Yes, it is triple-bottom-line accounting. That is all gone; it is all words. [Interruption] David Benson-Pope is not even allowed to take a call in any debate I have been in in this House. All he is is noise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c583cbc7183e4a499804fedaad5d420e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c583cbc7183e4a499804fedaad5d420e\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227322\u0022 data-id=\u002267f2454a05564ad89b3d34fcc0bd4f0b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267f2454a05564ad89b3d34fcc0bd4f0b\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I have listened very carefully to the debate on this part. I know that under urgency Governments sometimes feel moved to put the pressure on for time and take a parsimonious view of the contribution that should be made by the Minister in the chair and other Government members. However, I remind the Minister who now sits in the chair that in the course of debating this part one of my colleagues raised some very important questions on behalf of a constituent. He has not yet had the courtesy of a response, and I say to the Minister that he will not get off the hook quite that easily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ae8e9a52c5f4fa8a5ca62f5978779f3\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Oh dear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3eb726d74e452697bb4b67ab6c5989\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: The Deputy Prime Minister might not think it is important, but he was not here. He should know that one of Mr Tisch\u2019s constituents in the Piako electorate is a ferret farmer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022375d14b3f8f5495f86074f9894284c84\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you will be able to anticipate this point of order. It is not fair to refer to the presence or absence of Ministers in this Chamber. It is outside the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262bc1f7d447c427a96380e3065aacf80\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is absolutely right. It is a convention in this House that people do not refer to the absence of members. I did not hear a comment, because I was otherwise engaged with the Clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ed13b046904901aa8449d2d4c9069f\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I plead guilty to a technical infraction, which I was goaded into by the intemperate behaviour of the Deputy Prime Minister, but I concede that I was in error and will try not to repeat the offence. I am indebted to my friend Mr Hide for pointing out my deplorable conduct on this occasion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister in the chair that he had better get up and take a call, because I will go for another call after this one unless he does. Mr Tisch has a constituent who has a $1 million export business, which the Minister of Finance should be interested in. Mr Tisch thinks that as a consequence of clause 4(6) of this bill, that particular constituent will be put out of business. He is entitled to an answer. The Minister who is warming the chair better get used to the fact that he cannot go driving people out of business with a bill like this, which is being pushed through under urgency, and not take a call. Mr Cunliffe, who is very fine at lauding his credentials around this place, had better use those credentials and stand up and tell the Committee the answer to Mr Tisch\u2019s perfectly reasonable questions. Is Mr Tisch\u2019s constituent going to have his business taken away from him by this part? Yes or no? I will go for another call. I know that Mr Hide will, and I can see that Mr Tisch will also go for another call. His constituent deserves to know whether clause 4(6) will put this ferret-farming export business of $1 million a year out of business. The Minister is pretending to read a comic or a women\u2019s magazine, or something, while I am asking these questions. I want him to stand to take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI have been reading the briefing notes, and it is quite clear what the reason for this measure is. I have just looked at the list of invaders that have got in as a consequence of the loopholes in the legislation, and I see that the Minister is the Minister who in 2002 brought the avian poxvirus to New Zealand. I want to know what that Minister will do to make amends for the invasion of the avian poxvirus in 2002. Clearly, that is an important reason that this measure has been brought to the Committee. I want to know what this Minister can tell the Committee tonight will be the case in relation to that very serious threat to biosecurity\u2014the avian poxvirus\u2014as a consequence of the Committee being troubled to pass this bill under urgency tonight. I conclude by saying that Mr Tisch\u2019s constituent\u2019s business is in need of those answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00222b5eaedde5d445a5958994d5d2dc6764\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222b5eaedde5d445a5958994d5d2dc6764\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00221607810f68434cceac584ebdff9d12cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221607810f68434cceac584ebdff9d12cd\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I will talk about clause 5, but first I want to comment about the reaction when my honourable colleague Lindsay Tisch made a great speech in the Committee a short while ago with regard to clause 4. The Labour members opposite actually laughed and thought it was a bit of a joke, yet it concerned a very serious matter. Their behaviour underscored their lack of understanding of the implications of a great many of the issues and matters arising out of biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would like to draw the attention of the Committee to clause 5, which talks about biosecurity control areas. I would like to mention a further instance of a lack of understanding about biosecurity and biosecurity control areas. One of the things we have at Auckland airport is a significant furnace, which offers one of the few opportunities we have to eradicate some bio-incursions into New Zealand. Some bio-organisms have to be incinerated to eradicate completely their existence. Some ignorant people in our communities, people with a green bent, people with a fundamentalist type of green view of the world, are trying to have this furnace\u2014the only one of its kind in New Zealand\u2014removed. That is a very ignorant approach to dealing with some of the bio-incursions we might have. That furnace may be the only way in which we can completely eradicate them, and stop them from spreading any further, and here we have Greenpeace doing its best to prevent it from being used in this way. That is a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe other matter that I want to bring to the attention of the Committee is the contents of national pest management strategies, which are a principal mechanism under the Biosecurity Act for the effective management or eradication of pests and unwanted organisms. That furnace could be a significant part of our getting rid of unwanted organisms that have become established in New Zealand. Pest management strategies provide a commitment as to how an organism is to be managed or eradicated, and who is responsible for the various activities and for funding and compensation arrangements. It is to be hoped that some of the things that currently need fixing will be addressed as part of the national pest management strategies, which are identified in clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere is no clear accountability for the biosecurity programme as a whole, and there is a lack of clear and agreed goals and outcomes for biosecurity activities. There is little systematic analysis of the relative benefits and costs of the different components of a biosecurity programme. All these sorts of matters should be addressed as part of the national pest management strategies, and, hopefully, some of these problems will be fixed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EDeciding the allocation of resources to deal with specific threats is highly complex. Of course, we are experiencing some significant costs through the woeful lack of action by this Government. I did refer members to a number of news releases about the woeful inaction of the Government\u2014the delay in responding to some of the incursions we have had, and the delay of the bill, which has sat on the shelf for 2 years. There has been a number of press releases in that regard, on 11, 16, 18, and 27 March, two in April, and a number in May. The importance of the bill cannot be understated in any way whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2c28ce36adb437ba09e58b7b1e07b6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2c28ce36adb437ba09e58b7b1e07b6b\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4c399a1565d41108e495bd21ccbbc27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4c399a1565d41108e495bd21ccbbc27\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This is a very important bill, and before you put the motion I would like you to consider giving one of our very few agrarian members of this Parliament, Gerard Eckhoff, another call. I am sure that he has plenty more to say about the bill, and it is a very important bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c155aa678144f79b0000d2326ac5acf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot ask that on behalf of another member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222bf926738fde4dc48b1317a5ac92c3bd\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 67\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 7; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001023\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 96 in the name of the Hon Jim Sutton to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001024\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc6dd2a14c6c42f18ccf06f7ed809f50\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Forests Act 1949\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00222df686008b48447aba2b3286ab41c03d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222df686008b48447aba2b3286ab41c03d\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to support Part 2, \u201CAmendments to Forests Act 1949\u201D. This is the most significant part of the bill. Clause 26 repeals the redundant provisions. They are redundant not only because of this bill but because the Biosecurity Act, in combination with this amendment bill, effectively nullifies the need for those particular provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227314bfb7350f488e9e60d1728bb64ffc\u0022\u003EHon Murray McCully\u003C/span\u003E: Why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f3db0f3e6e407abea529ad72764f36\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Because sections 69, 70, 70A, 71, and 71C of the Forests Act are repealed. Members might like to know that section 70 provides very broad regulation-making powers, which are not required any more. The section states that regulations may be made \u201Cfor the purpose of eradicating or preventing the spread of any disease which may affect areas, trees, tree seed, timber, forest, or forest products.\u201D Members who had paid attention to this bill, and who had been at the Primary Production Committee, as I was\u2014diligently, as is my habit\u2014would know that the bill covers those issues with regard to forestry; they would know that it covers not only agriculture and horticulture but forestry as well. That purpose, \u201Deradicating or preventing the spread of any disease which may affect areas, trees, tree seed, timber, forest or forest products.\u201D, becomes irrelevant with the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI am glad of that. The biosecurity provisions of the Forests Act operate as a parallel system to those in the Biosecurity Act, so why have them? On top of that, with the amendments we have pile upon pile of regulation-making powers that we do not require. The National Party is a party of small government, of less regulation and bureaucracy, and of less compliance cost. We believe that we do not need those sections any more, and we are happy to repeal them. The Labour Government, which believes in big government, high compliance cost, and lots of regulation and bureaucracy, of course brought us all the way on this matter in the select committee. [Interruption] That will come as no surprise to Murray McCully, the member of Parliament for East Coast Bays. [Interruption] I do not know why the most harmless incursion to this Parliament, being David Benson-Pope\u2014the sleepiest incursion to this Parliament\u2014has woken up and started heckling me. He should read the bill and take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAll I want to say in closing is that sections 69, 70, 70A, 71, and 71C of the Act are being repealed, and the Crown has available alternative instruments to use in relation to the biosecurity of trees. This amendment deals with that. Why pile regulation upon regulation? Why pile bureaucracy upon bureaucracy? Why pile legislation upon legislation? Why pile David Benson-Pope upon anyone? The National Party will be voting for Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd9edda9f9244a6cb5b4e7364901b31e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd9edda9f9244a6cb5b4e7364901b31e\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the fact that the Minister in the chair has not taken a call on this part, and did not take a call on Part 1. That leaves the Committee in a difficult position. I am bound to say that this debate will go on for some time if the Government continues to take that sort of cavalier approach. It was bad enough that, in respect of Part 1, Mr Tisch\u2019s ferret farmer was denied an answer as to whether he would have a business tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EPart 2 has provisions that, on the face of them, look innocuous. I am indebted to my colleague Mr Heatley, the honourable member for Whangarei, for his explanation, but I am bound to say that it was the Minister whom I was looking to for some guidance on this matter. Although it may sound trivial, I want the Minister to demonstrate to the Committee that he has full command not only of his own faculties but also of the provisions contained in Part 2. When a measure such as this is being passed under urgency, it is important that the tyres are kicked by members on the way through. This bill will go through its third reading after the Committee is finished with it. I want the Minister to take a call and tell us that he has had a good look at the provisions in the Forests Act 1949 that are referred to in clause 26(1) and (2). Can he tell us whether he has satisfied himself that the powers contained in this Biosecurity Amendment Bill exactly replicate the provisions of sections 69, 70, 70A, 71, and 71C of the Forests Act? Can he confirm that? Mr Chairperson, I appeal to your good nature and excellent judgment in this matter, but I have asked a perfectly reasonable question. Can the Minister tell us whether the provisions of the Forests Act that are referred to in clause 26(1), which repeals sections 69, 70, 70A, 71, and 71C of the Forests Act, are exactly replicated by the Biosecurity Amendment Bill, which the Committee is about to pass? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ECan the Minister not hear me? He wants us to vote for this measure, on the basis that these are now redundant provisions that should be repealed. I simply ask him the question: has he satisfied himself that these provisions are, indeed, redundant, and can he certify to the committee that sections 69, 70, 70A, 71, and 71C are exactly replicated by this bill? If he cannot tell us that, we should be voting against it. The Minister cannot just roll up to Parliament with a bill\u2014and I am bound to say, and I am not being critical of the draftsman, the explanatory note is distinctly unhelpful on this matter. There is no explanation about Part 2, in the explanatory note. Members like Mr Heatley, who had the advantage of being on the select committee, know from their own understanding of the bill in the select committee process that Part 2 is OK. Mr Heatley thinks that Part 2 is OK. I think Mr Heatley\u2019s judgment is generally quite sound, although I have seen the odd lapse from time to time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI just want to be quite sure, so I want the Minister to tell me. The Minister is pretending to be in some other place. I will give up on clause 26(1) and move on to clause 26(2), and ask him whether section 71B(2) of the Forests Act is replicated by the provisions of the Biosecurity Amendment Bill, which has already been ticked off by the committee. Can I sleep easy tonight, knowing that Parliament has not made a huge mistake by repealing section 71B(2) of the Forests Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4e48cbb1cc4457e9ae443bf91568bf4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4e48cbb1cc4457e9ae443bf91568bf4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E We now have a Government that we can confirm has no respect for this House, the institution of Parliament, and parliamentary democracy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b47739f79d7544c5af4ca2694c1f8b37\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae12cee29a7467485b280a19a7e107c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: David Benson-Pope thinks it is funny. Government members think that Parliament is funny and they think that a business going under is funny. They put a Minister\u2014a boy Minister, with his training wheels still on\u2014in the chair who does not know what the bill is about. He has not taken one call. Why have Parliament, if this Government is just going to come down to this Chamber and pass legislation, irrespective of the questions that the public asks and irrespective of the Opposition\u2019s concerns? I tell the Minister that I have some questions for him about Part 2. It is now 25 minutes to midnight on a Thursday night, under urgency. I tell the Minister to take his training wheels off and have a go at this question. Why is section 70A of the Forests Act 1949 being repealed? I have read this bill in conjunction with the Act, and I can understand why we have to get rid of section 69. I can understand why we have to get rid of sections 70, 71, and 71C, but why do we have to repeal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e24cec77e0464cea948bc41a1fd5551e\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022985b4946b8ff49a89128b97d5db6a676\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased. United Future members, who go along like the doormats that they are, will vote for it because the Minister with the training wheels on has told them to. I hope he takes a call and explains why section 70A of the Forests Act\u2014[Interruption] The member is saying that he was alive when that Act was passed. [Interruption] He is saying that he does not understand it, but he will vote for it, anyway. God knows how United Future members are getting on! If members do not understand the bill, the purpose is to come to the Chamber, and the Minister would explain it\u2014except we have a Minister in the chair who still has training wheels. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI ask the Hon David Cunliffe, the member for Herne Bay, to take the call and explain why section 70A is being repealed. He gives a look of complete emptiness. [Interruption] David Benson-Pope said that it has something to do with his electorate in Dunedin. Why does he not stand up and take a call and rescue the Minister? [Interruption] Now he is saying that the Minister is rorting the system. I think it is true that David Cunliffe is rorting the system, because he is taking a Minister\u2019s salary but not doing a Minister\u2019s job. I say to the Minister that he should take a call and explain why section 70A of the Forests Act is being repealed. It seems to me that it should not be repealed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EMr Copeland says that he is confused now. He is like members on this side, thinking that he will not vote for it. Mr Phil Heatley of the National Party is having second thoughts. Harry Duynhoven has already called out across the Chamber: \u201CDon\u2019t trust David Cunliffe, because you can\u2019t trust him on this.\u201D I think his vote now is up for grabs. I tell the Minister that all the members are laughing at him, even his United Future doormats are laughing at his expense. This Minister will not come to this Chamber and convince Parliament why we should vote for the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHow hard can it be to explain why section 70A of the Forests Act 1949 has to be repealed at this time of the night, under urgency? That is not a big ask. One section of a very old Act is being repealed. I ask the Minister to please explain the reason to the Committee, because Mr Copeland needs to know. He has to go back and talk to God, and his voters, and say that he did this in good conscience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3ebcfbdd8fa47b2876521d9da126175\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3ebcfbdd8fa47b2876521d9da126175\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022507b5a9d152e42cbaaf0e79d1d9c79ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022507b5a9d152e42cbaaf0e79d1d9c79ce\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (NZ National): \u003C/span\u003EThat premature closure would have been most unfortunate. It is difficult to follow such a powerful speech as the one delivered by my colleague Mr Rodney Hide from the ACT party, but I have to say that, as a result of that speech, I am deeply concerned about aspects of this bill. I am deeply concerned about the Minister\u2019s inability to answer what I thought were some quite basic questions about the bill. In fact, in just making a general comment about the way the Minister has conducted himself through this entire debate, I say he has not taken one call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228437605d1ad34cf2aecef88913ed7c9c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s scared of Parekura.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf4d705442b64c89a7d9812ad5a548ca\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Has he been taking lessons from Parekura Horomia? That is a very good question. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c2a6d4ac8a4c02a76d962c05d888b0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say to the member at the back that when he refers to people, he must use their full name, not just their first name.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec083418230f4eae96b2ef9329c6f532\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Some of the questions asked by members on this side have been very reasonable. Some of the questions raised by my colleague Lindsay Tisch about a very distressed businessman from his electorate, who is now worried about whether his business might go under\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ec8cab92d2548a6a1e6a32b194342e4\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: How do the ferrets feel?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce8704a0eb9349de91ccca03c7352d0c\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: That is quite right. How do the ferrets feel about the Biosecurity Amendment Bill? Their entire ability to survive is being put severely at risk. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E The Minister has not answered some very, very basic questions. One was whether the redundant provisions that are repealed, the amendments to the Forests Act, would be replicated in the Biosecurity Amendment Bill. How can we sleep at night, when worrying about the repeal of these provisions if nothing is to be put in their place? Who knows\u2014because of the large number of incursions we have seen in just a short number of years, I suspect that maybe the Minister who has been looking after this particular portfolio, Marian Hobbs, invited termites to come here. Basically, there has been a rush at the border, and a large number of incursions have occurred in a short space of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESection 70 of the Forests Act provides very broad regulation-making powers for the purpose of \u201Ceradicating or preventing the spread of any disease which may affect areas, trees, tree seed, timber, forests, or forest products.\u201D I do not recall any discussion about those particular aspects earlier in the debate on the bill. How can members on this side of the Chamber be confident that these particular provisions are redundant, as the bill describes them, when we have heard nothing from the Minister about what provisions in this bill replace them? I can see why a number of people involved in the forest industry, a billion-dollar industry in this country, are concerned\u2014and rightly so, because this provision removes some security aspects from an Act that is nearly 54 years old, which is nearly as old as the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe. Obviously, they have not been looked at. Some real concerns have been raised, yet the Minister remains silent. For a member who is getting a salary of over six figures and a Crown car, plus a number of other perks, the least he could do as part of his duty is to answer some very simple questions. This Part 2 is probably one of the shortest parts I have debated in this House. It is quite simple, yet the Minister in the chair has been absolutely silent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ESection 71B(2) of the Forests Act is amended by repealing a quite important paragraph. [Interruption] I would like to ask for quiet from some of my colleagues, because this is a very important part. In fact I think that Part 2 is so substantial that members on this side of the Chamber will probably take more than one call and hopefully provoke the Minister into saying something\u2014anything. Any sort of reply or attempt to answer some pretty simple questions would be quite encouraging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c36ec3b75eb43ca9991599bfc604057\u0022\u003EOpposition Member\u003C/span\u003E: What about a smile?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdf9fdc16c0f4fbbbb815182bfa9260d\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Even a smile would do. That Minister should put down his crossword. From here it looks as though he is doing the crossword out of the Woman\u2019s Day. He should stand up and answer some of these very basic questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u002249c3a7b0e92b4dd7b6f52154bba0eef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249c3a7b0e92b4dd7b6f52154bba0eef4\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022631b7cf626a040579d075ff24f845ac5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022631b7cf626a040579d075ff24f845ac5\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have been listening to the member who has just resumed her seat, talking about the amendments to the Forests Act. She requested the Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, to stand up and indicate whether the sections being repealed under this part are covered, and, if so, how they are being covered, in this bill. I cannot see where there is any replication of those provisions, and I cannot see any cause to remove them. Sections 69, 70, 70A, 71, and 71C of the Forests Act are supposedly being repealed, but where in this bill are they covered? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, David Cunliffe, has failed to convince the Committee, and almost every speaker so far has requested him to stand up and explain to us where those sections are genuinely covered in the bill. I cannot see where they are covered, and neither can other members on this side of the Committee. I ask the Minister to stand up and give us an explanation. Clause 26(2) states: \u201CSection 71B(2) of the Forests Act is amended by repealing paragraph (b)(i) and paragraph (c). Where in the bill are they replaced? This side of the Committee has requested the Minister to stand up and explain. He should take a call now and give us an explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe Minister is shaking his head. He has no intention of standing up and taking a call. He has probably been told by his whip not to take a call, because he knows nothing about the bill and therefore should stay seated and keep quiet. That way, members of the Opposition will not be able to rubbish him. He should stand up and show that he actually understands this bill, by telling us where those sections have been replicated in this bill. So far, nobody has been convinced that he has understood the bill. He has not taken a call throughout the whole debate. He should stand up and take a call to show us that he understands the bill. I say again to him to take a call. Why will he not take a call? The Minister will not take a call. That shows he has not been in his job long enough. He has all the trappings, but he has not been in the job long enough to take a call and give us a real reason. The bill has been around since 2001. He must have had a chance to read it; he should take a call and let us see how he understands it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479c51fac33c4d0eb92ee8f2b50ffb0c\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ll take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d54ddc96e0d04e9aad5db11255072e4a\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Benson-Pope over there is squawking away. He is saying that he will take a call. That will be good! I hope he will take a call and explain why his Minister will not stand up and give us some answers. I say to him that he should stand up and take a call, telling us why the Minister in the chair is not allowed to stand up to explain Part 2. This part, which repeals sections of the Forests Act, is not understood. Mr Benson-Pope should stand up and explain why he will not allow his Minister to take a call. The Minister should take a call and explain this part to us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00228152d511e5d14e5caf39b1cfe7dbeff9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228152d511e5d14e5caf39b1cfe7dbeff9\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f9c92e49e8734d13b81acdd382e32d9a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 66\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 6; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001063\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001064\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228ad3ed2eff2f401f9bb0074cb29be650\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u00228118eed36a324e95b105d0d725688a02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228118eed36a324e95b105d0d725688a02\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Biosecurity I move, That the Biosecurity Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill was introduced to the House on 7 August 2001, was referred to the Primary Production Committee on 16 August 2001, and was reported back in November 2001. It amends the Biosecurity Act, which provides a framework to enable the exclusion of pests and unwanted organisms from entering into and establishing in New Zealand, and to provide for the eradication or management of pests and unwanted organisms that are already present in New Zealand. The Act also provides for the ongoing monitoring of New Zealand\u2019s pests and unwanted organisms status, in order to facilitate the provision of official assurances in relation to exports of organisms and their products, as well as to meet our international reporting obligations and trading requirements. The amendments to the Act made by the bill and Supplementary Order Paper 96 are technical in nature; consequently, the bill does not substantially change the main policies in the Act. The amendments have arisen as a result of experience in applying the Act to new situations, as a result of responding to organisational changes in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and as a result of the need to resolve inconsistencies and provide greater clarity in the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThis bill has provided some fine-tuning to what is now an effective and efficient Act. The Government has put in more than $50 million in baseline funding for biosecurity every year, and New Zealand now has one of the most effective systems in the world for providing protection in this area. However, we will continue to get incursions of organisms across the border that must be dealt with. The Government is making a major contribution, but every citizen must do that as well, and this bill makes provision for that by requiring them to watch out for unusual or new diseases, insects or animals, and to report them to the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThis bill recognises the role of individual citizens as well as that of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and it makes small but important changes to the Act. I believe that this bill deserves the support of the House because it will improve the protection for New Zealand from organisms that may harm our farms, orchards, forests, conservation areas, marine environment, and human health. The continued protection of those national assets is vital to all New Zealanders, and I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022e52c910f47ef4060a2939bb1c9eab611\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e52c910f47ef4060a2939bb1c9eab611\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E What the Minister from the Labour Party did not tell members was that the Primary Production Committee that I worked on nearly 2 years ago worked pretty hard to get this bill through. We took submissions, listened to submitters, and this bill was prepared to come back to the House. Two years have passed. What the Minister did not tell members was that in the last 4 years\u2014and for 2 of those years this bill has been languishing\u2014we have had visits to this country. We have had visits of the cane toad from Australia. We have had visits from the Asian gypsy moth. We have had visits from the Australian huntsman spider. We have had visits from the North American ring-necked snake. We have had visits from the Argentine ant. We have had visits from the Australian redback spider, and we have had a visit from the North American southern ring-necked snake. We have had visits from all over the world. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI know why this Government bought shares in Air New Zealand\u2014so that it would have an opportunity to transport all these visitors from overseas into this country in a speedy manner, because that is its lax attitude towards biosecurity in this country. So it is with some disappointment\u2014although obviously we are happy to support this bill\u2014that we are speaking about it tonight under urgency. Because the reality is that it has languished for 2 years, and I would like to make that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E Some of the key recommendations in this bill that the select committee assiduously worked on at that time\u2014a long 2 years ago\u2014were issues particularly around those who seek to benefit from the passage of this bill. We talked about those who are likely to benefit from the implementation of a biosecurity strategy based on a particular incursion. Of course we have had 10, 11, or 12 of those in the last 4 years. We talked about those who are affected by this bill who actively or passively actually encourage, create, continue, or exacerbate incursions into this country. We talked about those people, and those, of course, who should be fined under that clause that we raised earlier, clause 24, \u201COffences\u201D, where through this legislation we have introduced an opportunity for a $5,000 fine for not only those who deliberately allow, or promote, or in some way help the passage of an organism into this country\u2014and I am not talking about Marian Hobbs here, although she has been responsible for 10, 11, or 12 incursions\u2014but also for those who do not notify the appropriate authorities about an incursion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWhen we talk about those who do not notify, we are not talking about those who are ignorant in the sense of a particular incursion or an event\u2014one would not expect them to be aware\u2014but those whom we would reasonably expect to know; those who have an education, and work in the field. I am talking about the area of agriculture: vets, clearly farmers themselves, perhaps meat inspectors, perhaps stock agents, those who buy and sell cattle, and all those types of people who consistently come in contact with animals throughout the country in the agricultural industry. We would reasonably expect them to recognise an incursion. If they do recognise an incursion and do not act, they can now be penalised up to $5,000, and that is a good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe also have those in the horticultural industry such as growers whom one would expect to recognise an incursion while working with their product every day; perhaps those who are packers, those who transport fruit, others who are consultants in the horticultural industry, and those, of course, in the forestry industry. Any of those people whom one would reasonably expect to know about an incursion must report under that bill. We in the National Party support provisions that will punish them if they do not act. So it is not only those who will be punished under this bill who actively bring insects, or vermin, or snakes, as we have seen, into this country, but those who are passive about it and do not act when they recognise it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere are also, of course, the important provisions about warning when there will be aerial spraying in the area. We have seen the issue in Auckland elevate to a point where our local constituents in Auckland are up in arms because they feel that there is a real problem there with spray drift hurting them in a health sense, but we can have that argument another day. But this bill actually allows Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry officials to have a period where they warn the public of aerial spraying within less than the 2 weeks previously imposed. It is all the way down to 24 hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI remember that one submitter argued that the minimum should be 48 hours. But we believe, having consulted widely with scientists and other people experienced in the biosecurity sphere, that 24 hours is a good minimum. Sometimes officials from the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, or whichever is the lead agency, have to act quickly. We would expect that if they gave only 24 hours notice they would advertise thoroughly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from midnight to 9 a.m. (Friday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200307012b895d633072407a845e4263b144db97001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e01f5df2b2b84b8dbcb82e7be83e6977\u0022\u003ETuesday, 1 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bdeebf45b5d04f7083e414ace631e53b\u0022\u003E(continued on Friday, 4 July 2003)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a98787dd9e154a108545de98dfeaba5b\u0022\u003EBiosecurity Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a911abb5a8e24d56b15dc4881364f9e0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00221e863c530170496188f420fd3b9abc95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e863c530170496188f420fd3b9abc95\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to bring to the House\u2019s attention a matter that was not discussed in the Committee stage or during the first and second reading debates, and that is the issue of inspectors and their requirement to inspect and withhold risk goods, or what are perceived to be risk goods, for a period of time. At the Primary Production Committee some of the submitters requested that we put a time limit on that. Members can appreciate that those people import goods that are useful to them as they go about their tasks. It was vets who had the greatest concerns. They import goods from overseas and have in storage things like animal vaccines and other veterinary products, which of course have only a limited lifespan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMembers will recall that in the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act there are time limits whereby officials, or customs officials at the gate, can hold back goods before they are passed on. We had two options here, which we looked at intensely. One option was to amend the Biosecurity Act so as to have time frames specific to the goods involved. The problem there is that on reading through the bill, we can see it is a particularly generic bill. That option does not fit when we have specific clauses relating to specific products that relate to specific sector groups. So we set aside that option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EOption 2 was to amend the bill so as to have time frames encompassing all goods, right across the board, in a generic manner. The problem there is that there is a large number of products, all with specific requirements, storage times, and so on, so making generic changes would be far-reaching, all-encompassing, and, of course, very, very costly. Too many stakeholders would have been involved at the late stage of hearing the submissions on the bill, and they would have needed to be consulted, so we could not use that option. Therefore, we have taken the middle ground, which members will see, whereby there will be consultation throughout the country and when we review the way that the legislation is working, perhaps we can take that matter into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House. The National Party will vote for it, and I thank members for the opportunity to contribute this morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00227ad975866df84a04b662cee4569d0d15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ad975866df84a04b662cee4569d0d15\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to support this bill. It is a good bill. Let us complete its third reading as quickly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022000193ed476d4c339f81296ab98ba247\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022000193ed476d4c339f81296ab98ba247\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E During the Committee stage of this bill there appeared to be considerable debate as to what Part 2 was all about. A lot of questions were asked of the Minister in the chair, Mr David Cunliffe. He was asked whether he would take a call and explain what Part 2 was all about, but that did not eventuate. So I am happy to tell the House that Part 2 is about the removal of compensation for the destruction of trees in a forest, or, indeed, in a private setting. It is not a huge issue, but it does show that some members of this Government have not even bothered to read the bill and understand what it is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThis bill, by and large, is a sensible bill. It does ensure that the issues of biosecurity are once again placed at the forefront of public attention. It has been with some regret, as has been mentioned numerous times in this House by the Opposition, that the bill has languished for 2 years, waiting for the light of day. At this very late stage we are at last, under urgency, debating this bill in its final stage\u2014the third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EOne would assume that New Zealand and the Government would understand that every measure that is possible, reasonable, and logical for the Government to take, it should indeed take. I want to hark back to my earlier comments about gamma irradiation. That technology has been around for a long, long time. The question that must be asked again of the Minister and of the Government is why they studiously ignore that marvellous advance, that relatively new technology, when so many other countries use it. It is interesting to note that the United States of America uses gamma irradiation to destroy the anthrax bacteria in mail. I think everybody in this country and throughout the world is well aware of the anthrax scares. They have been a huge biosecurity risk to the public throughout the world, and indeed a number of people have died from inhaling that product, sent by terrorists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EHere was an opportunity for the Government to recognise that those exceptional circumstances provide a great opportunity to scan all incoming mail, and to use gamma irradiation to sterilise and kill the bacteria. The real question for me is this: why has the Government not accepted that gamma irradiation is such an important part of biosecurity in many parts of the world, and that we could use it in New Zealand, as well? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe other aspect I would like to touch on again in this third reading debate is the fact that the rest of the world seems to be a step ahead of New Zealand on the question of biosecurity. I refer again to the Australians\u2019 desire to achieve the maximum benefits they can, and to ensure their own country remains free of unwanted organisms. I refer, of course, to the technique of bubbling nitrogen through ships\u2019 ballast. We have been told in New Zealand that we cannot export water. We have major problems with the introduction of starfish, and so on, by means of the discharge of waters originating from exotic climes, and that is the reason given that we cannot export a product that is in huge demand throughout the world\u2014fresh water. If ballast was unloaded in Fiordland, those organisms would get into the rather exotic and beautiful area on that part of our coastline and cause some real problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe new technology that I have just come across is not even being discussed in New Zealand. I ask the Government why that is not the case. Why are all options not being put on the table, so that the public can look at them and say that that particular technology is a perfectly reasonable way to go? If that technology was trialled in New Zealand and shown to work, why should we not utilise it? Why do we not offer the country the very best opportunities in terms of biosecurity techniques? Sadly, that will not happen\u2014certainly not in the short term\u2014under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe bill, of course, also ensures that the public of New Zealand are made responsible for reporting to the appropriate authorities any incursions of unwanted organisms that they come across. The question of genetically modified (GM) organisms coming into this country illegally is one that does concern, legitimately I guess, a number of people, not the least of whom are the Green Party members. It is quite interesting to note that just in recent days the European Union has opened up its doors to GM products, as long as they are appropriately labelled so that consumers can have a choice. That seems to me to be a perfectly sensible, even though quite costly, alternative. It is also interesting to note that the introduction of GM products into the United States has lowered the necessity for pesticides to be used in that country by 20,000 tonnes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E When we think about the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Stockholm Convention) Amendment Bill that we also passed recently in this House, we know that here we have a marvellous opportunity to embrace new technologies and, in so doing, to do away with those extraordinarily hazardous substances. When we think about the reduction of 20,000 tonnes in pesticide use in one country alone because of new technologies and new techniques, then I think we have real cause for celebration that in this country and throughout the world we have a bright future, thanks to science and the new technologies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI mentioned earlier that it is incumbent upon the people of this country to report any new outbreaks of unwanted organisms, and I commend to the House again the television programme Border Patrol, which has highlighted the significance to New Zealand of people bringing in fruit\u2014some inadvertently, but others quite stupidly and without forethought. About 13 tonnes of fruit product have been detected. So the real question is how much comes into the country undetected. That is a major concern, and I think that the producers of that programme, Border Patrol, should be commended for introducing it in prime time. It is a hugely educational programme, as well as being slightly entertaining at the same time. I would like to see opportunities being used to educate the public constantly\u2014through advertisements, for example\u2014about organisms like moths, for instance, so that people can identify them and ring the authorities about an outbreak. Who knows? People may be able to win a trip to Fiji as a result of their stewardship of this country. We need to be innovative and creative about those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00220accdb5845f745139df57f20641601db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220accdb5845f745139df57f20641601db\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Not all parties support their bills, but this is our bill, it is a good bill, and I am really pleased to support its third reading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022a625e25ecf4348f681cf6c383bf39f07\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a625e25ecf4348f681cf6c383bf39f07\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this bill, because it hits right at the very heart of one of the most important parts of our economy. Biosecurity problems can have a devastating effect on our economy, particularly on our farming economy and our forestry. We agree that this bill has gone a long way towards closing some of the loopholes in the original bill. We also accept that it does not go quite far enough, but we are happy that the bill will solve many of the problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI bring to the notice of the Government that the bill was first introduced in August 2001. That is an awfully long time to have it sitting on the Table waiting to be processed through this House. The Government has finally brought the bill, in urgency, to this House to try to rush it through. Why was it not brought to the House a lot earlier? Why was the process not completed? The select committee completed its tasks well over 12 months ago, and the bill could have come to the House immediately after that. But, no, it sat there waiting, in much the same way that the Government waited for reports on various aspects of biosecurity management. Those reports told us exactly what we already knew\u2014that the management of biosecurity in this country had failed miserably. We have seen a whole swag of incursions over the last 2 or 3 years, and last night examples of a number of them were read out: cane toads, huntsman spiders, fire ants, and crazy ants. The spread of all of those organisms could have been prevented had we had better checks in place earlier. [Interruption] Government members are now trying to interrupt me, but last night we tried to get the Minister to explain some of the issues in this bill, and he would not take a call. He was told not to stand up and take a call. The bill sat on the Table for 2 years without anything happening to it, and it has now come to the House. We are pleased that it is here, because we are concerned about biosecurity issues as they affect our economy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI would like to touch on a few points in the bill, particularly new section 44 inserted by clause 6, which requires people to notify the Ministry of the discovery of new organisms in their environment. We have only one issue with this provision. The general public are not aware of many of the natural organisms in this country, so when they discover one that they think, from the outside, might be an introduced pest but turns out to be one that is natural, after a while they will start to wonder whether there is any point in reporting those organisms, because they are told every time they report one that it is one of our own natural ones anyway. To make this part of the bill work, there needs to be an extensive educational programme that identifies the organisms we have and makes the public aware of them. As Gerry Eckhoff mentioned, it could be a television series, and we could bring in Dr Bellamy\u2014our \u201CDavid Attenborough\u201D\u2014to front it. We should be able to have a programme that identifies those organisms, so that the general public and children in schools are taught the facts about the insects and spiders we have. We do not have cane toads, but we could have another series to show the dangerous organisms from the countries of our trading partners. A database of the dangerous organisms that are likely to come in from our trading partners should also be set up. If that database were clearly identified, there would be no delay in putting those organisms on a list so that something could be done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe management strategies in the bill are ones that regions are expected to put in place. We would like to make sure that regions work together so that there are not differing regional plans and strategies. If those plans and strategies are not coordinated, we will have one organism skipping into the next region and nothing will happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAnother issue I would like to touch on is the aerial spraying mentioned in clause18 of the bill, which updates section 114A of the principal Act. The notification requirement for aerial spraying has been 14 days, and there is now provision to reduce that to 24 hours in certain circumstances, which are invoked after a report has been done on the incursion. In very rare circumstances, where the population is minimal, there is even provision for zero notification before a spray takes place. I think that provision should be tightened up. It certainly needs to specify a period of at least 14 days before spraying takes place, with additional medical checks to assess which people are likely to be affected by that spraying. That is particularly so out in west Auckland, where people have suffered the spraying time and time again without the full medical help they deserve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAs I mentioned earlier, the power to examine organisms in this bill requires a database to ensure that right from the start we understand the organisms involved. An education programme for children, and right throughout the population, is a definite way to help that identification. With the examination process, those checks would be linked with the database and the organism identified very quickly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E New Zealand First supports this bill because it is very important to our economy to make sure that the likes of the varroa bee mite do not come in and spread rapidly before this Government will do anything about it. Sitting on its hands doing nothing\u2014as the Government has done with this bill\u2014is a shame, but now that the bill is back in the House for its final reading, let us get on with it and make sure that it is put in place properly, so that we can stop these organisms coming in right from the start.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002254dfbdfcb4ae4a6cb9df512840f31a35\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254dfbdfcb4ae4a6cb9df512840f31a35\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E This is a bill that is supported by all parties in the House, yet Opposition members insist on complaining about how long it has taken and then take long calls like that one, which do not add to the value of the debate. It is time that the acting leader of New Zealand First, Mr Catchpole, let this bill progress through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u002209bb68daca76471590aed098bab1fd8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209bb68daca76471590aed098bab1fd8b\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It did not seem to make much impact on members of this House, but this week has been a very significant week for biosecurity in New Zealand. The incident I am referring to occurred on Wednesday, when it was announced that Dr John Clearwater had found a pheromone for the painted apple moth. For members who are not into pheromones, they are the sexual attractants exuded by insects. Dr Clearwater has been working on pheromone analysis for 22 months and has finally got to the point where he has a synthetic pheromone that can be used to attract male\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022627c367ef4b7490f9b8e663f5f9aea66\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: Artificial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b007bf221f4240769e20125a0f80eb28\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not genetically engineered. It can be used to attract male moths away from the females. They get attracted to the pheromone and get trapped, and the females do not get fertilised. It is a very good way of cleaning up the hot spots we have with the painted apple moth spraying in Auckland. I applaud Dr Clearwater. It is a very complex issue, he has worked diligently at it and, perhaps most significantly of all, he has paid his own way. Dr Clearwater has taken 22 months to do it, and it is an outstanding success, but the absolute tragedy of what has happened this week is that it should have happened 2 years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EIn May 1999, when the painted apple moth was first discovered, Dr Clearwater and his team, who found the pheromone for the white spotted tussock moth in east Auckland, were denied access to viable painted apple moth females. The work went to Forest Research Institute and HortResearch, who were the people who failed to find the pheromone for the white spotted tussock moth. They similarly failed to find a pheromone for the painted apple moth. Dr Clearwater then offered his services for free, in the hope that we would be able to eradicate the painted apple moth. Had he been able to get access to the painted apple moth females when he first asked for them\u2014and when I was calling for it in this House\u201422 months would have elapsed and we would not have had the widespread incursion of the painted apple moth into west Auckland. We would not have needed to have blanket aerial spraying with all its concomitant health impacts on the residents of west Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThis Government needs to hold an inquiry into the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s behaviour and its handling of the painted apple moth incursion. It has been absolutely outrageous. When we think back to what the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry did and did not do in those early days, it beggars belief. It took the ministry 2\u00BD years\u2014not months, not weeks, not days, but years\u2014from the first discovery of the painted apple moth until it did some basic things like trapping to find out the extent of the infestation, and feeding trials to see what the painted apple moth would eat. It took the ministry 2\u00BD years to put photos in the paper so that the residents of west Auckland knew what they were being sprayed for. It took 2\u00BD years to put limitations on the removal of garden rubbish around west Auckland, so that people would not unwittingly spread it from place to place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThat is absolutely outrageous. It is one of the least competent exhibitions of containment by a Government department that I am aware of. It is just scandalous, but have heads rolled in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry? No, they have not. The ministry failed to contain the painted apple moth. In the early days the then Minister for Biosecurity said in this House: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about the painted apple moth. The female can\u2019t fly, therefore it can only spread 500 metres a year. Trust us, we know what we\u2019re doing.\u201D She did not actually say \u201Ctrust us\u201D\u2014that is my embellishment, but what the Minister overlooked, did not know, or did not take the time to find out, was that in the pupal phase the painted apple moth can fly. The pupae do not have wings, but they balloon and fly in the wind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a74bb79235a4e238edad2a9f0d07ca6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have given the member a pretty wide range. He will now come to the bill and whether he is in favour of the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219674cf7f5d94fe7a5e76208f523e438\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: You have been very generous, Mr Speaker, and I will do exactly that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThis bill fills some important holes in our Biosecurity Act. I suppose one of the more important things is the notice that chief technical officers have to give before they can spray for incursions. As it stands at the moment, if there is an infestation of, say, foot-and-mouth disease in a remote rural area, the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has to give 14 days\u2019 notice before it can try to eradicate the infestation. In a situation like foot-and-mouth disease, 2 weeks could be the difference between containment and eradication, and an economic disaster for this country, so it is very sensible to reduce that limit. However, I do have concerns about completely taking away any limit at all. I can accept that if there is a foot-and-mouth disease infestation in a remote rural area, the ministry should get in there and spray. It should do whatever has to be done to contain and eradicate, but what happens if the infestation is found in a farm homestead? We cannot just go in there without any notice at all and spray children, domestic pets, and animals such as horses. We simply do need to give people notice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWith the passage of this bill, I hope that the power we are giving the chief technical officers will not be abused. They need to be flexible, and they need to learn lessons from the way the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry behaved in west Auckland. There, it was simply, \u201CWe have $90 million; we\u2019re going to get rid of the painted apple moth, come what may.\u201D The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has a duty to be responsive to the community. It has a duty to communicate and consult with the community. I think the lessons of the painted apple moth are actually being learned. The way the ministry behaved with the Asian gypsy moth outbreak, when a single male was discovered in the Waikato, was very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI am pleased this bill is going through. It fills some holes in our biosecurity, but many things still have to be done. The most important thing we have to do now is address the sea container problem. As I have said in this House many times before, over 400,000 sea containers come into this country every year, and only 24 percent of them are inspected and decontaminated. It is incumbent on the Government to raise that to 100 percent, so that we are putting a fence around the top of the cliff and not an ambulance at the bottom.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002259f415dd7946472f8114cdf7b00b7226\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259f415dd7946472f8114cdf7b00b7226\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the bill and to thank the last member for his considered, clearly expressed opinions, which I found helpful and valuable. I am not going to add to them. I recommend the legislation to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022477b55eeb88b4540a009f55e0699fd9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022477b55eeb88b4540a009f55e0699fd9a\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E It must be pretty frustrating for members on that side to have to stand up and give such short speeches. Some members may leave the House having said only things like \u201CI support the bill.\u201D and \u201CI move that the question be now put.\u201D When they have gone down in history, and people in the future look up their contributions, they will see that they were quite limited indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIn terms of making contributions today, the Opposition does not apologise for taking some time in debating this issue even though there is unanimous support for the bill. This is a very important issue. If something goes wrong with biosecurity, this economy could be shut down virtually overnight. The cost to the economy of a foot-and-mouth outbreak could potentially be $10 billion, so members on this side have taken the issue seriously. That is why we have debated this bill aggressively and enthusiastically.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI must say that the bill is being passed unanimously today only because of the enthusiastic work of the Opposition members on the Primary Production Committee. I think it is important to pay tribute to some of the members of that committee. Mr Gavan Herlihy made a huge contribution to the Primary Production Committee, as did Philip Heatley, who has been one of the more aggressive debaters on this issue in this House, and Shane Ardern, who is our spokesman for biosecurity. He has very much held\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8c232b4c8f94f779a64991d73886b3b\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: That speaks volumes about the National Party, doesn\u2019t it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d609221418749b29b53b32c1dc72b58\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that Mr Benson-Pope, the country\u2019s most noxious incursion, makes that comment, because one of the things that members thought was most unusual was the fact that his Government had put this portfolio in the hands of Minister Marian Hobbs. This is one of the more important portfolios, one that rural communities very much depend on. How did the Government signal that importance? How did it show the community how important biosecurity was? The Government gave the portfolio to Minister Marian Hobbs, who is also known as Minister \u201CBoo Boo\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257ba3221983744f69491ecbfc5395009\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, in this House all members are honourable members or Ministers. Please carry on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221984f8ab83c6463aa3deea88621ae90a\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important to go back to one of the main comments, which I thought was very telling, about that Minister\u2019s handle on this portfolio. After a terrible track record with the portfolio, she came out and said: \u201CI think that finding only six incursions in the last fortnight shows that we\u2019re really very good at surveillance.\u201D That did not make many members on this side of the Chamber feel very confident that she was in control of the portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is worthwhile at this stage to go through the biosecurity report card of this Government. Even though there were only about 10 incursions prior to 1999, there has been a huge influx of unwanted pests and biosecurity risks since that time. In April 2003 we had the cane toad, and in March 2003 we had the fall web worm, the crazy ant, and the Asian gypsy moth. I feel like David Attenborough when discussing some of these problems, which the Government simply has not been able to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e44444f4b06e4a5fa5cc853fdfdcfb83\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: They let them in?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b841ec1980dc4398a298091abadce902\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it welcomed them in, in fact. Some people think that immigration policies are confined to the immigration portfolio, but the biosecurity portfolio has a very active immigration policy under this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ELooking at this particular bill, I think that although there is unanimous support for it, it is important to take the time to debate the issues fully. Biosecurity is very much an issue where the portfolio is more or less an insurance policy of sorts. If we do not get right the investment in biosecurity, then there will be significant costs further down the track. I think we have seen that with the painted apple moth. So far the cost of dealing with that particular incursion has totalled $90 million. Imagine if that money had been spent on a more thorough investigation of sea containers when they came to New Zealand!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI have to say I was quite shocked to hear that fewer than 25 percent of sea containers are actually checked when they come into this country. The checks are not very thorough. The check entails the container being opened and an official popping his or her head in to see if anything jumps out. That is not the sort of investigation we expect. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry certainly has a lot of work to do to try and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcd090878f7646f6b6bb68264761ee3d\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Give it away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed70e6ce03346fcb68d2f6668eed0ce\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that that member is very new, and has aspirations of being on the front bench, but he should know that he is not allowed to make silly comments when he is not in his own seat. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292f41c5fb13b46378c7d34db594bc9ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I shall put it this way: I am not going to adjudicate on whether the member\u2019s comments were silly; I can say that if he wants to interject, and if he is not acting as a whip, he should go back to his seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022632752356f09479c800f831fb19185b9\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH\u003C/span\u003E: We have a very fragile economy, which can be put at risk, and certainly has been put at risk in the last few years. The biosecurity report card is nothing less than appalling. We have more problems and more incursions than we have ever had before. I think the Government needs to stop thinking in a short-term way about biosecurity investment, and to put a greater amount of investment into, particularly, the investigation of sea containers as they come into this country. If it does not, we are going to continue to have a number of very expensive problems down the track. As I mentioned earlier, had the $90 million that has been spent on getting rid of the painted apple moth been spent on doing thorough investigations in the first place, the chances are that we would not have that particular problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis is an important bill that introduces some quite significant powers for the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. The bill gives the ministry the ability to act more quickly, which I think is important. It is important that it be able to act in a timely manner if there are problems to do with scrapie, mad cow disease, or foot-and-mouth disease. It is good that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry will have the ability to act more quickly than it has done in the past. The ministry will also have greater powers to audit, which I think is important. Greater penalties also are introduced in this bill, and that will quite clearly send a message to members of the public that if they do not act in a timely fashion and alert the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry to incursions they have discovered, there is a penalty involved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThis legislation is just an amendment bill. It augments the Biosecurity Act 1993, which, as we know, aims to exclude, eradicate, and effectively manage pests and unwanted organisms. The Opposition will support anything that will strengthen biosecurity. We understand the importance of the portfolio and its impact on the economy. It is a shame that members on the other side of the House do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00224d8699b8eeb34b76b8caad1d6ce81c98\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d8699b8eeb34b76b8caad1d6ce81c98\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u00228e124d4601a34edebca2246dce2ccbfc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e124d4601a34edebca2246dce2ccbfc\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this hugely important Biosecurity Amendment Bill, which National will support because National realises the great importance of biosecurity to New Zealand from many points of view: from an economic point of view, from an environmental point of view, and, undoubtedly, from an animal and human point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI am greatly sorry to report to the House that the Labour Party does not appreciate how important biosecurity is. To hear a little while ago the remark of Darren Hughes that this bill should progress more rapidly through the House is absolutely ironic. Darren Hughes is a member of the Labour Government, which has allowed this bill to wallow on the Order Paper since 16 August 2001. It has not been progressed by Labour. He had the extraordinary cheek to suggest that it should now\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220823ca123e21417e9522d6991310baf5\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Audacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e649219b458247629631f7f0046f47d4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, there is no audacity on his part; \u201Ccheek\u201D is the more appropriate word. The important thing is that here is a bill that is hugely important, yet Labour has not shown any concern about it. It has dawdled on it for the last 2 years, and now, under urgency, it wants to progress it. Labour members certainly have not made this bill a priority. This minority Labour Government has given priority to things such as the Care of Children Bill; it wants to consider whether the lesbian partner of the mother of a baby conceived using assisted human reproduction techniques should be called the father.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222659e382f5d049ef8c2c716715ba4f91\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! Can we come back to this bill, please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a59ce91d522d4b6582ef6912a850bd3d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I am really pointing out how hugely important this bill is. As Federated Farmers pointed out in its very apt submission, the importance of biosecurity to New Zealand is absolutely vital. After all, pastoral exports are valued at $13 billion, and comprised 42.7 percent of all exports in 2001. We learn that if there was an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in New Zealand, it would result in a cumulative loss of $10 billion over 2 years, and the loss of 15,000 jobs. Yet Labour put this bill to one side, and gave preference to other, far less important legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s record is absolutely appalling when it comes to biosecurity. As my colleagues have pointed out, since October last year there have been 11 incursions of a whole variety of organisms, from the Asian gypsy moth to the North American southern ring-necked snake, the cane toad, and the scorpion, and this Government has done little about it. It is important to reiterate what the Associate Minister for Biosecurity told the House on 26 March 2003. She said: \u201C\u2026 I think that finding only six [incursions] in the last fortnight shows that we really are very good at surveillance.\u201D That is a shocking indictment on the Labour Government and on that Associate Minister for Biosecurity. It is appalling how lackadaisical she has been about this very, very important issue of biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne of the other points that has been made is that sea containers continue to be a source of biosecurity incursions, because only 25 percent of those that arrive here are checked properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022418570140a1e422a8bfe706b1d2c67bf\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: What was the percentage under National?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e3aa1843bd43f9b5a6040de39668f8\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: The point is that this Labour Government has been in power for almost 4 long, unfortunate years, and only 25 percent of containers are checked. The Government is worried that it might cost $90 million to carry out proper surveillance. The Government has already spent $90 million on the painted apple moth campaign in west Auckland, which has been very badly mishandled, yet it is holding back on ensuring that there is proper inspection of sea containers, which are one of the first areas where inspection should be done properly. As well as that, the Government is commissioning very little new research into technologies to reduce the cost of inspecting containers. That, again, is very, very serious. The Government is, basically, taking a passive attitude towards this very important area of biosecurity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EOne example, and I do not know whether it has been brought up previously, is the elimination of the white spotted tussock moth in 1997-98, under National. National demonstrated how to run a successful eradication campaign, but what has happened with the painted apple moth? It arrived in late 1999. Labour did not learn the lessons of the white spotted tussock moth campaign, and the painted apple moth was allowed to spread for more than 2 years before aerial spraying began. The Auditor-General released an absolutely damning report last year on the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s slow and uncoordinated response to the painted apple moth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228521aa4937934415af00bd5dd0a04f83\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: What about the varroa bee mite?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe9b970443e48a495f7b5d95e8b7de9\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: The member raises a very important point. Under this Government the management of that mite has been shocking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to point out one other slight irony, which involves the Greens. On the one hand, we hear the Greens say, in very shrill tones, that they want zero tolerance regarding genetic modification (GM), although there have not been any reports anywhere in the world of adverse effects from GM food. On the other hand, today we hear that Nandor Tanczos and his colleagues are incredibly upset with the Customs Service, which has instituted a zero tolerance policy in terms of the importation of hemp products. Tetrahydrocannabinols undoubtedly have been proved to be harmful. The Greens want zero tolerance for something that has been proved to do no harm, but they want laxity for something that is harmful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022260844737cfd4cd8bbc57f3a4b1387b4\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s called the precautionary principle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065e63547ac347568e58066434b49fb7\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It is the precautionary principle in reverse. I end by saying that the Biosecurity Amendment Bill is a very important bill. National supports it, and we are deeply concerned that the Government has not paid biosecurity the attention that this very important area deserves. Federated Farmers, in their very good submission, put it all into perspective when they said that it is vital that the Government got on and started putting proactive efforts into making a realistic biosecurity strategy for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227ca3bb7e8ee74f8ab062914c41888446\u0022\u003ECrimes Amendment Bill (No 6)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221dc071a2996e430bb0aea11f888f16b6\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca049cdd7268412d9dace7ecf1245092\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca049cdd7268412d9dace7ecf1245092\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aabe02e8fca74bbb913b5b78d152384b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 81\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 34\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f0a487198a343fe951ca2dd3c7f9cd2\u0022\u003EWool Industry Restructuring Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022313411126ad1458ebd201444a901235e\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022938d85ea85b44ebe89cab6c00095ae8a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022938d85ea85b44ebe89cab6c00095ae8a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that, at the conclusion of debate on all stages of the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6), the House move directly to Government order of the day No. 11, the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b0c7f540fb4ad5b3c6bec11b21d400\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none. That is so ordered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aece0c19ee06434e8468276d25f142b1\u0022\u003ECrimes Amendment Bill (No 6)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002204acdf69275141b786228e7732c4e6a6\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220e0c39294fe243deb91b4b71604f9507\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022638918f6ab0d44e89070b52dfd9d0acb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022638918f6ab0d44e89070b52dfd9d0acb\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E This title is not a fair reflection of the contents of the bill, and it is very disturbing that a Minister who purports to be in charge of telecommunications has not picked that up. I note that this bill should have been with the Associate Minister of Justice; he might have read it, but I doubt it. This bill has a terrible flaw in it: it is missing a very important part. I hope the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, will listen to this, because this is very important. A huge part of this bill deals with increasing the penalties for home invasion. That sounds great, except that this Government repealed the part of the Crimes Act that deals with home invasion last year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI know that the Minister in the chair is looking puzzled by that, so I say to him that he should get the officials here. If he looks at clauses 3 to 7 he will find that a huge section of the bill is absolutely redundant, because sections 17A to 17E of the principal Act were repealed by this Government last year\u2014and here is the proof. We have a Government that is asking this Parliament to put through, and to vote on, bills that are redundant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ad2fa1142794464934c8165e1d29f50\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Read the clauses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c883bba20f0d4fa19cf8b3ffbeff8b7d\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I will list the clauses, for the benefit of the officials. Perhaps the Minister could talk to the officials about clauses 3, 4, and 5, which deal with increasing the penalties for home invasion crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bfc9abd29084cbda96a16c4eb76bd92\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t amend provisions that don\u2019t exist.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253f5037d7e5a45b4845675061fed4a2a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: One cannot amend provisions that do not exist, and, worse than that, further on in this bill that we are being asked to vote on today are provisions dealing with sections 17A to 17E of the Act. There are errors throughout this bill, because Parliament repealed sections 17A to 17E of the Act last year. That is shoddy work from the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EWe have looked through the bill and put in an amendment dealing with that issue. We would like it to be sorted out, because it should have been addressed in this bill. The issue of home invasion has been in and out of the bill everywhere. Moreover, if we go through to other clauses in the bill, we find there are whole clauses about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI would also like to talk about the concept of colour of right. This Government has said in this bill that it does not like the concept of colour of right, and it wants to change the definition to \u201Cclaim of right\u201D, because it does not want to extinguish customary rights. Instead, it wants to look at cultural interpretations. \u201CColour of right\u201D is a term that has been used time and time again through the courts. It has been used in the legal system of England, and then in New Zealand, for hundreds of years. Consequently, that particular part of the bill should be left as it is. I talked to criminal lawyers about it last night, and they said it is shocking to change a term like \u201Ccolour of right\u201D by trying to make it become a claim of right. That is absolutely appalling. It is a very poor piece of drafting, which should have been fixed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI will come back to the particular part of the bill about home invasion. That part was looked at only in May of this year. This bill had been floating around for the last 3 years, until someone suddenly looked at the issue of home invasion, and that is not good enough. It is not good enough for this Government to take 3 years to work out what it has already done. That issue occurs all the way through the bill, and the Government has not even taken the time to go and get it fixed in a proper way. That is not good enough. If we go through the bill, we see there are other clauses that need to be looked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002244ee7fb4ddaf4d928ab1fb8c69abe612\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244ee7fb4ddaf4d928ab1fb8c69abe612\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The title of this bill relates to amendments to the Crimes Act. To justify that title, these amendments should improve the ability of the New Zealand justice system to apprehend and convict criminals. Some of the provisions in the bill are good; they modernise the language and description of offences. One of the main features of the bill is the inclusion of a whole new category of offences that deal with people intercepting other people\u2019s electronic communications and hacking into their computers, or, to use the correct terminology, remotely accessing others\u2019 computers. The bill makes it illegal to interfere with people\u2019s conversations through listening devices, by applying that to electronic interception or computer hacking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere would be a big privacy problem if we were to allow people to freely intercept others\u2019 electronic communications, and it is good that the bill addresses that. For example, we do a lot on the Internet these days, and increasingly we buy things on the Internet. So stopping people from intercepting our credit card numbers as they whizz around the Internet, as part of that electronic commerce, is a very good thing. The provision against hacking is good, too. Although people sometimes glorify the successes of some hackers\u2014there is sometimes a bit of a David and Goliath atmosphere, with some hackers treating it as a sport to try to access the Pentagon or a big Government computer\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a09efe843140b59ebf086e50f4c084\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The title is a very narrow debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b23e5b8688f4fe1b790bda5313c8d75\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I think it is important in this debate to see what has changed in terms of improving the ability to catch criminals in relation to hacking. Although hacking may have some popular appeal\u2014and the people who do it for sport are usually snapped up by the security companies, and end up on big salaries\u2014for the ordinary person it is very upsetting to be hacked, particularly if it affects one\u2019s computer. So it is good that there is a provision here to make that illegal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the bill does give exemptions from those provisions to the police, the Government Communications Security Bureau, and the Security Intelligence Service, and that is not in keeping with the theme of the title. Instead of improving our ability to apprehend lawbreakers, we are giving those agencies the ability to affect in some way our privacy, which is a right under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act that should be very much upheld in our society. No good reason is given in this bill for doing that, and a lot of innocent people will get caught. Members should think about how many emails they receive in a week and in a year\u2014it ends up being thousands and thousands\u2014and if any one of the people who send those emails is intercepted under these provisions, then a member\u2019s communications will also be intercepted and could end up being affected in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI accept that there has to be a balance, and sometimes we may give away, to some extent, the hard-won right to privacy if there is a very clear community gain. That is the real spirit of a crimes amendment bill, but no one gave any statistics or anecdotal evidence to the Law and Order Committee through any stage of its consideration of this bill to show that we would catch many extra criminals through giving the police and the intelligence services that ability. We need such evidence if we are to give away our privacy in that respect. This bill is about the Crimes Act and about catching criminals, and everyone knows that serious criminals can very easily avoid interception using code, encryption, and those sorts of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff041caef3ce459ca3635837db06b93b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff041caef3ce459ca3635837db06b93b\u0022\u003EHon HARRY DUYNHOVEN (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I will just take a very brief call on behalf of the Minister, the Hon Phil Goff, to respond to the comments made by Judith Collins in respect of clauses 3 to 8. I suggest that the member actually gets up to speed. If she looks on the Table she will see that there are Supplementary Order Papers, and that Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff answers all her questions. The provisions on home invasion have already been taken care of in the Sentencing Act. If Judith Collins\u2014instead of jabbering away with snide comments\u2014looks at that Supplementary Order Paper, she will see that the issue has been taken care of already.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002298ea3c65409d4f1ba83dd723cad096dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ea3c65409d4f1ba83dd723cad096dd\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak against the title of this bill, simply because I do not think the title reflects the content of the bill. I say to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Harry Duynhoven, that if he wants the Opposition to be cooperative in relation to the provisions of this bill, he should not go around insulting members who have taken the time to go through it, given that the Government has taken over 4 years to bring Supplementary Order Paper 84 to this Committee to fix amendments in this bill that should have been fixed earlier on. If the Minister looks at the Hansard record of when this bill was introduced, he will see that the promoting Minister, Mr Goff, railed against the previous Government for not having done something about the home invasion issue in its 9 years in office. In October 1999 Mr Goff said that this would be priority legislation for the Labour Government, and here we are with the bill having taken 4 years to get into the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EJudith Collins was absolutely right when she said at the beginning of her speech that the title does not reflect what is in the bill. This bill would more correctly be called the \u201CCrimes Amendment (To Cover up Ministerial Laziness) Bill\u201D. That is the point that Judith Collins made. If that Minister thinks he will have cooperation from the Opposition to get this bill through Parliament more speedily, then he should be more respectful of members who have made an effort to identify the failings of this Government, which has taken 4 years to fix amendments in this bill that refer to repealed amendments. That is a sloppy performance by the Minister. We do not want to see the Minister in the chair behave as he did in the previous call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00228d29de8dd36c4002a4450a5c19d7d5c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d29de8dd36c4002a4450a5c19d7d5c6\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to follow on from my colleague Tony Ryall, and basically just to emphasise what clearly is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278bcf0c6b6114fbf8e8eb3094266e45b\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: A Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cf390803d2542c0a9c927cedceb1a46\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has clarified that there is a Supplementary Order Paper. It has been sitting around for quite some time, and when did the Government actually realise that? When did the Government realise there was the anomaly that my colleague Judith Collins has pointed out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022828313a126b146539cd5838f795ab174\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: About a month ago, after 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234a36b44a90f44f7945ccc28f2100571\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: That is symptomatic of the Government\u2019s knee-jerk reaction on a whole raft of things. We saw that earlier in the week, with the immigration legislation that was passed through all its stages in urgency. We see it again today. Stuff-ups occur and suddenly people think they had better do something about them, and with this bill it is the same sort of thing. The problem is that these issues are very serious, so they deserve a more coherent approach than this Government seems to be willing to give to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIn particular, the area of crime, and penalties for home invasion, tugs at the hearts of New Zealanders. We all know that, and certainly, because of the way the public reacts when various violent things happen out there, then, yes, Parliament feels\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f805459d9e034cddb3952cfea6fe39fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is a narrow debate. Could the member please speak to the title? I know it is difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298111eeadb59403ab942dadb1974a626\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Of course this is about the title. What is in that title to tell anybody what the Government is trying to do? OK, this is the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6), but what is this Government attempting to do in this bill other than to react in a knee-jerk way to public reaction, and to try to give the impression that the Government is doing something, when it has taken 4 years to do anything to fix the anomalies in the bill? We have the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) and Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff, but that says nothing about the way that the Government approaches a very serious area, indeed. It does not give that area its proper attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis bill should be called the \u201CCrimes Amendment (Corrections In Haste) Bill\u201D or the \u201CCrimes Amendment (Corrections in Haste) Bill (No 6)\u201D. The Government has been sitting for 4 years, and only now has this bill come to this Committee, when the Government knows the matters it deals with concern us, as well. It is not as though we have to suddenly go into urgency. If one approached this area in the comprehensive way that it deserves, then this bill would have been approached in a different manner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis title, like a lot of the things that we see in this Parliament, while it gives a bare understanding of what might be covered in the bill, does not tell the public anything. The title is very innocuous. It does not say to the public that the Government has only just seen fit to address this bill after letting it sit around for so long, and that although it knows these matters are important, that was the best it could do. Well, I say that that is not the best this Parliament can do. I say that this Government should pick up its act, approach these things in a more serious manner, and stop the knee-jerk reaction kind of stuff that we have seen this week on a number of other bills. That is not the way to treat serious issues. The area of crime and penalties for home invasion is a serious issue for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9244c1f413347d5ad37bdbfd48e2fc6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9244c1f413347d5ad37bdbfd48e2fc6\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I will say at once that I come to this bill with half-an-hour\u2019s reading. The Hon Ken Shirley, who took the time and was on the committee when this was first dealt with in 1999, has given me some briefing notes. Looking at the title, it is very hard indeed to see why we should have a title as bland and as innocuous as the \u201CCrimes Amendment Bill (No 6)\u201D. It could have been descriptive. It could have been something like the \u201CProperty Crimes Amendment Bill\u201D. It could have been something that would give people a handle and an opportunity when they glanced through the Order Paper, or were looking through the statute book, or searching through a computer entry system, to see something that would have told them what this amendment did that others did not. In other words, a title should distinguish a bill. This is simply a label that is no better than a number. The \u201CNo 6\u201D actually gives more information than the title that has been chosen for this bill. The number of different times that we have heard it mentioned, it could also have been referred to as the \u201CAnti-hacking Bill\u201D, the \u201CComputer Crimes Bill\u201D, or it could possibly have been the \u201CTidy-up Bill\u201D, but to simply call a bill the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) does not tell users anything. I believe that it is bad practice. It is consistent with other bad drafting practices that we have, like the practice of having enormous single parts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill actually shows all of the tawdry little tactics and the defects in dealing with a Government that subverts the integrity of the document, and its usability, to its short-term political objectives. Plainly, there must have been a short-term political gain in introducing it back in 1999.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E The bill, with \u201CNo 6\u201D in its title, means that it probably was the sixth amendment to the Crimes Act in 1999. That shows a very active Government. It shows that at the time there was a Government and a Minister of Justice, the Hon Tony Ryall, who were actually doing something in the area of crime. Now, here we are, 4 years later, and No 6 is still No 6. I do not think there were any amendments to the Crimes Act in 2003. It shows just what priority or lack of priority is given to crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen speaking to the title of a bill that amends such a fine piece of legislation as the Crimes Act, and considering why we would have a title as uninformative as this, we could just assume that it was laziness, or a drafting practice that does not take account of the needs of those who are looking for the label or description\u2014those who will need to try to find the amended legislation. I am coming to the view, having realised just how long this bill has been before Parliament, that this innocuous kind of description\u2014this kind of labelling\u2014does serve a Government. It helps to disguise just how long something has been sitting without attention, while other more fashionable things like the enormously useful Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Bill went through, while the Government changed matrimonial property law and now is turning lesbian mothers into fathers. All of these things have had more urgency than the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f459ebebd3d405aac01bceb696cf8cf\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That member, Mr David Benson-Pope, has just called the honourable Stephen Franks a crook. Chuck him out of the Chamber, for God\u2019s sake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224802fcc3244e4a98aefe3b16547cac33\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf5dc8d302d481da063853ab4b04be8\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a0baddd93b4c0d8eac4cdf518d2607\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Mark for trying to uphold standards in the Chamber. I have managed to create a sort of filter that filters out the drivel one gets from Mr Benson-Pope. The contribution Parliament gets from the member for Dunedin South must be one of the worst from any whip. He is a whip who lowers the tone of Parliament every time he opens his mouth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cc0e7b1b3af41d6989f4af593ff7e78\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: When he gets off his backside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1845ac9cce845dab98637ac24814b64\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. To bring this to a conclusion\u2014the Government has had 4 years to try to make this bill mean something. It has had 4 years in which it could have relabelled the component part to this bill in a way that would have helped the people who are going to use the legislation. The bill should at least have been called the \u201CCrimes (Property Crimes) Amendment Bill (No 6)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002298fe800e84694048b88f7d4ea286168d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298fe800e84694048b88f7d4ea286168d\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cc29ee074fe4a4484d8a2681d58972f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Mark has indicated he wants a call, and we have not heard anything from New Zealand First. I am pleased to accept the call from the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00224d471f2b41b8430793beed86bbf81923\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d471f2b41b8430793beed86bbf81923\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to indicate that, like other parties, we will be supporting the passage of this bill through Parliament. That is not to say that we will agree with everything we hear from the Government on it\u2014if we hear a jolly word other than abuse from across the Chamber, which the senior Government whip has become renowned for, outside the walls of this Chamber, as well as inside them. I put it on the record that I have to concur with Mr Franks when he says that \u201CCrimes Amendment Bill (No 6) and Supplementary Order Paper No 85\u201D is not a very inspiring title to look at, first thing in the morning. One could be forgiven for thinking that the bill deals with a whole heap of the extremely serious crimes that are currently facing this nation\u2014such as violent crime, which has escalated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIn fact, this bill deals with surveillance issues. It was long in its gestation in the Law and Order Committee. Given the length of time it has taken to get this bill to the floor, I am bemused about why the Government has to do all of this under urgency. One would have thought we would have been debating this important bill a year or so ago, at least. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThere is not a lot that I will say about the title of the bill. I simply signal that I have received a copy of Judith Collins\u2019 proposed amendments. We will look at those from New Zealand First\u2019s perspective and make a decision, as we progress, about whether we will support them, and we will discuss some of the finer points of the bill as we progress through it part by part. Essentially, if I were to suggest any change to the title, it would probably be something along the lines of the \u201CBill that Shows Quite Clearly How Labour Just Doesn\u2019t Seem to be Able to Get its Act Together and Get Legislation That is as Important as This Through the House in a Timely Fashion\u201D. But, of course, that is a very hard sort of statement to condense down into one title. I simply say this one time that we will support the title and discuss the bill further in the part by part debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00220b124214fd5c450c97da0c060cabd2ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b124214fd5c450c97da0c060cabd2ce\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c767d372ef1a4fe5bfd5dbb2c2409987\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 99\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 16\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a281b6ed801443d2afa6f40a2f0233fd\u0022\u003EClause 1A  Commencement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000134\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 1A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000135\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to, and clause 1A as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f63e6ce7a0dc43118757bc767ea45f96\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002291d7317c06b94608b4b5ed2fc08e0281\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291d7317c06b94608b4b5ed2fc08e0281\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to address clause 16B, which gives exemption to the Government Communications Security Bureau from the prohibitions in the bill against intercepting electronic communications. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b98c95a8fe4f69832d94f7dec88a83\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the honourable member, but members are well aware that it is not permissible to have cellphones ringing in this Chamber. I ask the member whose cellphone was on to please stand and apologise to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226446a67bc0b3407e954132a15b535023\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the Committee. My cellphone is now on silent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f750f3e8276f4479a1a7f02e38161c94\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member very much. I appreciate that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca089d0b07974753866faefdbe535673\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: I was speaking about the exemption being granted to the Government Communications Security Bureau under this bill, from the general prohibition about intercepting electronic communications. The bill states that the communications that will be intercepted by the bureau will include foreign intelligence, and, in section 216A(1) in clause 16A(1), it defines \u201Cforeign intelligence\u201D as being intelligence to or from foreign organisations. We see from the definition of \u201Cforeign organisation\u201D, that that can include, for example, the subsidiary of an overseas-owned company. We know that in our society a large proportion of our economy is now overseas owned, so even though the Government has often claimed that the only targets of the Government Communications Security Bureau will be overseas people, in fact when we look at the definition, we see that a large proportion of people in New Zealand would be subject to interception because they work for subsidiaries of foreign companies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E This bill could give a bit of an impetus to the Taranaki savings bank.The rest of our banking system is made up of subsidiaries of foreign companies. If one sends an email to one\u2019s bank, under this legislation one\u2019s communication could be intercepted by the Government Communications Security Bureau, because all those overseas banks are included in the definition of a foreign organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other question, and it comes up in the report back from the Law and Order Committee, is the extent to which electronic interceptions by the Government Communications Security Bureau and other agencies will go into the area of key word searches. I shall quickly read out a couple of sentences from the report relevant to this: \u201CKey word searching is where the person undertaking the interception or search uses a computer programme to help find or monitor information by searching for particular target words. Key word searching is viewed as being more invasive than other methods used to monitor postal mail or phone calls. It is seen as a gross invasion of privacy, as it is indiscriminate as to the context in which the words are used, leading to the scrutiny of many innocent emails, and the potential threat to the safety of political dissidents in countries where political opposition is not tolerated.\u201D The report then goes on: \u201CThe committee considered the safeguards in the bill are adequate to ensure that personal privacy is balanced appropriately with the rights of the State to protect its citizens.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat conclusion from the committee is not correct. When one looks at the Waihopai satellite communications interception station, which does intercept millions over a year of communications that pass through to Pacific satellites that its dishes are focused on, many of us may have our international communications\u2014fax, phone, or email\u2014intercepted by that system, and that system is a key word system. It is not a system that is fixed on particular lines, as envisaged, say, in the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Bill now before the Law and Order Committee. The Waihopai system is a key word interception system. In regard to the bit I quoted from the bill, it could lead to the scrutiny of many innocent emails of New Zealanders, and that is very bad. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere has been a concern around the world about key word searching. Under the bill the Government Communications Security Bureau is granted the power to intercept communications, and where does it end? It can extend into key word searching, or there can be other developments that people are worried about internationally.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 19 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003Eto omit new sections 254 and 255.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e03afb5b260a4b9d82682f4252a24e90\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00224e003b184883491cb01f7fa8a638a530\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e003b184883491cb01f7fa8a638a530\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendments are also in the name of the honourable member Keith Locke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a0c6127bc2400da81991dd6f956594\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. These other amendments are amendments to the next part, as I understand it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022123212f47b1f4b2cbe88ba92369142f6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, Part 1 is clauses 2 to 24. The amendments in the member\u2019s name range from 21A through to 21J, so they are covered in that part. I shall put the question now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc2277577af042dda595ff2f42eb5101\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: In the bill, the bolded section Part 1\u2014the amendments 21A etc.\u2014are under the bolded section headed Part 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b38c24e10170485199bfc2c675ce478c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It is part of this part of the bill; the part that will be inserted into the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229848c837ae414399aeb1250c0de08c69\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Surely, if sections\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b714355c9df44fe5821043037e3d7e57\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is confused. The amendments he is putting forward are part of Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eb92fd21134476ab4a1027e53d08efe\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: If you look at the title page of the bill, pages 1 and 2, the amendments to the principal Act, 20-24, are under the bolded \u201CPart 10\u201D, and not under the bolded \u201CPart 1\u201D. I bring up this point, because I was assuming that my amendments would come up under that bolded \u201CPart 10\u201D, and I was going to address them to the Committee under that. There is no indication from that table of contents that they come under Part 1. They are at the end of the bill. If you look at the order of them as they are described in the bill, they are at the end of the bill, that is after the other\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b84f1dbd6bc34cd2b6776110ff363b79\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to the fact that a new part is to be inserted into the Act. However, it is being inserted by this part of the bill. I now wish to put the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225911977446c847cabad7f2f37679835c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003E 21A, 21B, 21C, 21D, 21E, 21F, 21G, 21H, 21I, and 21J be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000157\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Lock to clauses\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000158\u0022\u003Eto omit these clauses.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000159\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 21M be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000160\u0022\u003Eto amend subclause (2) by omitting from new section 312Q(k)(iv) the word \u201Cand\u201D, and inserting the following new subparagraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000161\u0022\u003E(v)\tthe average duration of interceptions carried out under these powers; and\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022122787107e694a3980e4007c907ffdeb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000162\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to insert new clause 21N be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000163\u0022\u003Eto insert, after clause 21M, the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000164\u0022\u003E21N\tNew section 312R inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000165\u0022\u003E\tThe principal Act is amended by inserting, after section 312Q, the following section:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000166\u0022\u003E312R Ombudsman to audit\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000167\u0022\u003E\tThe Ombudsman is to conduct an annual audit of all telecommunications\u2019 interceptions carried out by police in the previous year.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002244a2b59e7db941d1aba05f9c9f52ac28\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000168\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to insert new clause 21O be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000169\u0022\u003Eto insert, after clause 21M, the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000170\u0022\u003E21O\tNew section 312S inserted\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000171\u0022\u003E\tThe principal Act is amended by inserting, after section 312Q, the following section:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000172\u0022\u003E312S\t Notification of innocent subjects\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000173\u0022\u003E\tThose persons who have been the subject of an interception warrant will be notified by the police of this fact if:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000174\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe interception warrant is no longer active because \u2013\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000175\u0022\u003E\t(i)\tthe interception warrant has expired and no application has been \tlodged for renewal; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000176\u0022\u003E\t(ii)\tpolice determine that they have no further intention to use the \tinterception warrant; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000177\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe police no longer have an active investigation on those persons; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000178\u0022\u003E(c)\tno charges have been laid against those persons.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f76ce470a020470e9738b7b137a787e0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000179\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to clause 21 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000180\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000181\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b71e90ad0d74cdea879feeff7a602a0\u0022\u003EPart 2  Other matters\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022b378287ee9b54d4391d8c3558a1bb7eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b378287ee9b54d4391d8c3558a1bb7eb\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am about to admit a failure, and the failure is my not having realised, Mr Chairperson, as you were racing through Part 1 with the obvious approval of most of the Committee, that it covers matters on which I wanted to record a position in the Committee stage, for the ACT party. I believe that the same issues arise under Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESome of these new definitions, and some of the parts that are recorded as having been replaced in the schedules, or repealed in this part, appear to me to be matters that require further attention. In particular, I am concerned about the definition of \u201Cdishonestly\u201D. The term is used both in titles of things that are to be repealed and in the operative sections of a number of these provisions where previously the word \u201Cfraudulently\u201D was used. It concerns me that the new term \u201Cdishonestly\u201D appears to assume that anything that is not expressly or impliedly authorised is not honest. I believe that it should be put on the record that that is not the intention of the Committee in passing the bill. There is a huge range of activity in any free society that does not require anyone\u2019s consent, and that certainly is not dishonest just because there is no express or implied consent. The existing law, the common law definition, which is replaced by this part, may have been a better definition in terms of what we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have some hesitation in raising this point, because I was not on the Law and Order Committee. I have not had the benefit of hearing the submissions. I believe that it would be unfair to expect the Minister to get up to speak to this immediately, but it does concern me that the words we have used in that definition do not go far enough to recognise that a lot of conduct\u2014many things that can be done or not done\u2014does not need to relate to anyone\u2019s consent or authority, and is not dishonest merely because there is no express or implied authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe second point, which is also a belated acknowledgment, is that in new section 237, in clause 19, the term \u201Cblackmail\u201D is extended to include to \u201Cdisclose something about any person (whether living or dead)\u201D, instead of it being confined to the previous grounds of criminal or sexual conduct. That seems to me to leave it far too wide, and to allow threats to be made of blackmail offences in relation to ordinary communication of information, to ordinary, conditional descriptions of things that people do in their everyday lives. It is perfectly proper for an employer, for example, to come to someone whom he believes to have been doing something wrong and say: \u201CIf you don\u2019t do X, if you don\u2019t make this right, if you don\u2019t do something, I will go to the police. I will disclose.\u201D That was covered in the previous law as potential disclosure of criminal conduct. It may be covered by subsection (2) of section 237, which states \u201Cunless \u2026 a reasonable and proper means for effecting [the] purpose.\u201D, but given that Parliament will not look at this again for a very long time, and given that we are now repealing the existing law and making the definition of \u201Cblackmail\u201D even wider than it was, I think we are doing the wrong thing. We are giving a weapon for the potential suppression of information, a weapon for people to connive or collude in conduct they should not connive or collude in, simply because they will be fearful of the very broad terms of the blackmail offence that is now being placed into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI thank the Chair for his tolerance in allowing me to put these comments on the record in relation to a part of the bill to which they are not strictly relevant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb4ed916f5e14ffd80bdb39419fda518\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb4ed916f5e14ffd80bdb39419fda518\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 discusses consequential repeals and amendments relating to the matters that we have discussed. It summarises and implements many of the issues that have been traversed so far.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne thing I want to talk about particularly is the provision to allow access to computers. I want to bring in the matter of the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s concerns. The Privacy Commissioner presented a number of submissions to the Law and Order Committee on various matters in this bill, and he was particularly concerned about our granting the law and intelligence authorities the right to access computers remotely\u2014to hack into computers. His argument, and I agree with it and it has motivated one of my amendments, is that the police already have the power to look at the contents of a computer when they search a premises under a warrant, so why do they need to go further and have remote access or hacking powers, which are very hard for us to oversee in any serious way? It is very hard for the police to be fully, publicly accountable for the exercise of those powers, compared with the exercise of their powers under a search warrant to look directly at a computer and its contents. I support the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s concern that that power should not be granted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EHe had other concerns. For example, he did not want interception warrants to apply by way of the police just going to a judge and getting a warrant on a one-off basis. Different judges will be dealing with those warrants, and he thought there should be an additional control, as there is in Australia, where the federal ombudsman does an annual audit of interception warrants granted to the police. I think we should have implemented that provision. It was one of the things that one of my amendments dealt with. It would have meant that we do what is done in Australia and have an extra layer of accountability\u2014that is, an ombudsman auditing those warrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EA concern expressed by the Privacy Commissioner and most of the submitters to the select committee was that we should try to protect innocent people as much as possible. There are two ways of doing that. One is to discard the information acquired from intercepts, and that is covered by amendments in this bill that provide that when information is no longer needed it should be discarded. I put forward an additional provision in one of my amendments. My amendment would have meant that an innocent subject was notified, once the police investigation was over and it was quite clear that the police no longer had any interest in that person. Where an innocent person had been accidentally caught up in the interception system, and no charges were laid, my amendment would have meant that that person was notified that an interception had taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat is what the FBI does in America. The Law and Order Committee received a submission from a person who lives here in Wellington that one of her emails to a friend in the United States had been intercepted by the FBI, and the FBI had reported that fact to the recipient of her email. That is a good provision, and it could have been added to this bill. Sometimes, in later life, in relation to later events, people are affected by an interception, because it resulted in their names ending up on a database. There is a looseness and a capacity for error in any bureaucratic system. If the agency\u2014the FBI in the American case or the police in the New Zealand case\u2014notifies a person that he or she was subject to an interception order, then that person, at a later point, if his or her credit rating, or travel, or something else is being affected, at least will know that he or she was subject to that interception warrant, and might be able to get to the bottom of the disadvantage that he or she is suffering. I think it is consistent with the general privacy themes that operate in our law that people should be notified of what information about them appears in public databases.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222d7d9932b03046208dcf388ac3b58c89\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b795edd0c7474092b685c72432be9a97\u0022\u003ESchedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000196\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 84 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to the schedules be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000197\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and schedules as amended agreed to. \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000198\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276fa659668d145c589b50da79ca261f0\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022718e81b5ec2a4a8d9c30022134c220db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022718e81b5ec2a4a8d9c30022134c220db\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) be now read a third time. I thank members of the House for their strong support for this bill. I think that, apart from opposition from one quarter to one aspect of the bill, everybody realises that this is legislation that needs to be introduced and will have a positive effect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI will comment very briefly on what happened during the Committee stage. Judith Collins was concerned that somehow this legislation had overlooked the repeal of some legislation on home invasion. Unfortunately, Ms Collins, a relatively new member, had not seen the Supplementary Order Paper, but I can assure her that the Supplementary Order Paper covered that. However, I will comment a little bit in response to Mr Ryall\u2019s comments on it. In 1999 he was the architect of home invasion legislation that was roundly panned by the Court of Appeal as being rushed, politically inspired, and totally inappropriate. I am proud that we now have legislation before the House that treats home invasion as an aggravating factor, that starts murder sentences at 17 years, and that does not single out home invasion as the only aggravating factor, which is what that failed Minister of Justice did in the previous legislation. This legislation is totally appropriate and has been supported widely across the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe second issue that came up during the Committee stage was interception warrants. Interception warrants now will be legally required in order to tap into emails or faxes. Any person who does that without the legal authority to do so will be committing a crime, so this bill largely creates a protection for privacy. But of course we allow certain law enforcement agencies to have the power to tap into emails and faxes\u2014just as they have always had the power to tap into telephone calls\u2014with proper safeguards for individual privacy, and with the involvement of the judiciary in allowing that to happen. It is clear to 99 percent of the country that our law enforcement agencies, which are fighting against crime and transnational crime\u2014and they now have the additional concern of international terrorism\u2014must have the exact same ability, where appropriate, and where a member of the judiciary has verified that it is appropriate, to tap into emails and faxes as they have always had to tap into telephone calls.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis bill updates most of the property offences in the Crimes Act, many of which have not been updated since the Act was passed in 1961. Updating is needed to have many of the property offence provisions reflect changes in technology, crime, and law enforcement since the Act was passed 40 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ECentral to the bill\u2019s reforms is plugging the gaps and areas of uncertainty in the Crimes Act\u2019s application to computer-related crime. The bill will ensure that offending involving computer technology is adequately covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E Amendments to Parts 9A and 11A of the Crimes Act, which respectively contain interception offences and provisions relating to police interception warrants, will ensure that the interception of emails and faxes by people who are not parties to the communication is illegal. Currently, only oral communication is covered by the Crimes Act. The amendments relating to police interception warrants will help the police deal with organised crime. Currently, the police, when acting under an interception warrant, can intercept only oral communications, and cannot use any written communications, such as text messages, emails, or faxes, that are intercepted. Criminals are taking advantage of technologies that we all now take for granted, and it is clearly important that the police have the necessary powers to deal with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere was criticism by one party of the qualified exemptions for some State agencies from the offences relating to interception and unauthorised access to computers. The Law and Order Committee carefully considered those concerns against the necessity for the exemptions to allow effective investigations of, for example, organised crime or potential terrorist threats. The committee concluded that the safeguards provided in the bill, together with existing statutory safeguards, are adequate to ensure that personal privacy is balanced appropriately with the duty of the State to protect its citizens. I believe that the bill will strengthen privacy interests by criminalising some activity that is not currently criminal, such as the interception of non-oral private communication and accessing computers without authorisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EA particular criticism of the bill was that the qualified exemption for law enforcement agencies from the unauthorised computer access offence gives police the power to hack into computers. It does not do that. The Crown Law Office provided a legal opinion to the select committee on the effect of those sections. In its opinion the effect is to put beyond doubt that a law enforcement agency accessing a computer system under some existing authority does not have unauthorised access. In other words, it is not committing an offence if it already has some legal basis, such as a search warrant, for accessing the computer. This measure is a matter of clarification, not a free licence for those agencies to hack into computers without legal justification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAside from the computer and interception offences, there are other important amendments that the bill makes to the criminal law. As well as the new computer offences, the bill contains another new offence, that of taking, obtaining, or copying trade secrets. The essence of the offence is wrongly acquiring something such as a document, plan, model, or diagram of commercial value, with the intention of obtaining financial gain. The offence of burglary is amended. The phrase \u201Cbreaking and entering\u201D is replaced with \u201Centering without authority\u201D, which will remove technical arguments as to what constitutes a break. Effectively, it means that burglary and unlawful entry offences are combined, and that should assist the police in their efforts against burglary. The offence of blackmail is broadened from the current offence of extortion by certain threats. The new offence will apply to any threat of disclosure. The scope of the threat has also been widened to cover a threat to cause serious damage to property or to endanger the safety of any person. The offence of obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception replaces the current offence of false pretences. It will cover a broader range of financial benefits than the current offence does, and the element of causing loss is also new. A number of new offences have also been broadened to include liability for reckless as well as intentional conduct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis bill is a very important update of New Zealand\u2019s property offences regime. It will strengthen the criminal law, and will give the police and the Serious Fraud Office more effective laws to deal with offending ranging from burglary through to organised crime. I thank members and officials who have worked on this legislation, which I believe represents an important advance in the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00225eab18c13e9b45f39527265c9ea1a419\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225eab18c13e9b45f39527265c9ea1a419\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the third reading of the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) and the associated amendments, I want to say that, on listening to the speech of the Minister of Justice, I think it is clear that he has lost interest in the justice portfolio. He has very big responsibilities in foreign affairs, which is his passion, and it is clear that he has lost interest in the justice portfolio. I will tell members the reason for saying that. When he was Opposition justice spokesperson, on the introduction of this bill in 1999 he railed against the Government for taking so long to bring this piece of legislation to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ce62f2171b94a22b2eac35771780d04\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: 40 years!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225a6b8e82cd544c5912da6ae0c084a3f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, 40 years! It is so pathetic. It would be sad if it were not so pathetic. He railed against the previous Government for not bringing this bill forward earlier. In one of Phil Goff\u2019s vein-popping speeches, where his forehead goes p-pump, p-pump, p-pump, and he goes all red, he said: \u201CThis Government should realise this is a priority, I\u2019ve said to this Government time and time again that this is a priority and it should be doing something about it, and I know why it should be doing something about it\u2014because everyone says it should.\u201D That is what Phil Goff said, but it has taken him 4 years even to have this bill passed. He stood up in the House\u2014it is the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D; it is one of the things one says when one is in Opposition and does not say when one is in Government\u2014and said that this bill was priority legislation that would be fast-tracked by Labour. I remember that because I was sitting in that chair there when he gave one of his vein-popping speeches about how he would act. Mr Goff has lost interest in the justice portfolio. It takes him so long to do anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI heard his comments about the Court of Appeal\u2014as though we should be embarrassed that the Court of Appeal thinks Parliament is taking a view on criminal offending! If he wants to quote the Court of Appeal, I will table the opinions of District Court judge after District Court judge, and High Court judge after High Court judge who have criticised his pathetic sentencing and parole legislation. High Court judge after High Court judge has criticised his bill. He can give whatever vein-popping speeches he wants to give; the fact is he is embarrassed about how long it has taken him to get this bill here. This is the guy who stood up in Parliament in 1999 and criticised the Government for taking too long. He is so embarrassed about it that he interjected that we had had 40 years to do something and had not done anything. I am not even 40, and the fact is this Minister\u2014[Interruption] I know I have got that gravitas that may make members think I am older.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe fact is this Minister has been pathetic. It takes him so long to do anything. What about this legislation? In January 2000, Phil Goff said that he would pass legislation to remove sex discrimination in the law with regard to women dealing with children. Six months later he said he would have it passed by Christmas 2000. Then in January 2001 he said he would have it passed by Christmas 2001. Then in election year he said he would have it passed by Christmas 2002. When Mr Peter Dunne raises the issue, what does Mr Goff say? He says: \u201CWe\u2019ve had a meeting with Mr Peter Dunne, and we agree, and we\u2019re going to pass that legislation by Christmas.\u201D So we have had four Christmases and he still has not passed the legislation. He takes far too long to do anything.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe fact is the Minister has lost interest in the justice portfolio, and this bill shows that. The Minister has made no substantive amendments to what was proposed when I introduced this bill 4 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271ceb4431b2240b08b27c4f7f7475a88\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Except killing home invasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db68430877d3482a9a0a9d06fb87f93b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I have to say, just while we are talking about that sentencing bill, that I understand that the Minister\u2019s officials advised him that amendments should be made to the Act, but Mr Goff is too embarrassed to bring them to the House. My understanding is that he said he could not do that, and he wanted to give it a while to settle down. So let us get real about how long it takes Mr Goff to do anything. It takes him far too long. There is urgent stuff that needs to be done. It has taken him 4 years to bring to this point a bill the serious content of which he has hardly changed; he has hardly changed any of the matters in it that are important. I remember his comrade Mr Swain standing up in front of the computer security industry at a meeting in Auckland in 1999, and saying that this was vitally important legislation, as well. He agreed with Mr Goff that it should be passed as a matter of priority. Well, if it takes the Government 4 years to pass, as a matter of priority, a bill that it has hardly changed, then that is an embarrassment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EFor goodness\u2019 sake, the Government should work more intensely with the Opposition parties, and we will tidy up foolish proposals that this Government brings in as bills. We will fix them up and we will get them passed. And they are foolish. This Government has passed a law that someone sentenced to prison for 9 years can qualify for parole in 3 years. An offender sentenced to 9 years\u2019 imprisonment for serious sexual offending, for rape, can be out in 3 years. That is what this Government is doing to the justice system in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that, time and time again, says it is going to get tough on crims. What is the record? The propensity to imprison is dropping because the sentencing law requires the judges to use sentencing as the very last possible option. The judges are to give crims everything else, but they are not to send them to jail. They can be very serious offenders, but the judges should not send them to jail. That is what this Government is doing. That is what it supports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis Government has overseen the complete collapse of the credibility of the home detention scheme. An Associate Minister of Justice stood up and praised his department for being robust in running home detention, but these are the very same people who recommended that a wife-basher go on home detention in the home of the woman he bashed. The department said that she agreed to it. Well, of course she is going to agree; for her it is a case of whether she is bashed again now or bashed later. That is what this Government does. It has overseen wife-bashers being detained in the homes of the very women they bashed. We have a woman Prime Minister. She lets that happen. She lets her Ministers stand up and say that is robust. That is not the sort of legislation or approach that we on this side of the House want to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis Government is not taking seriously crime in this country. We have violent crime at record levels on the basis of per head of population, and on a total basis. The Minister should be embarrassed by that. There is record crime in this country. We have more car burglary than we have had for years, and it is getting worse. We have more serious sexual crimes than we have had before, and it is getting worse. Auckland is now one of the most crime-ridden cities in the Pacific. People are leaving Auckland because they are worried about the level of crime there. What does this Government propose? Nothing, absolutely nothing! The Commissioner of Police said he needed 170 extra police in Auckland. How many did he get? He got 50, over 4 years. That is not the sort of approach we need to law and order in this country. Crime is going up. This Government has no respect for the victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00228c6878f767b04927b633821e95610c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c6878f767b04927b633821e95610c56\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (NZ Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E This is a common-sense bill, from a common-sense Minister and a common-sense Government. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002263f56312c1894ea896fcf5e3959bc361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263f56312c1894ea896fcf5e3959bc361\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My question to the member who just sat down is what is the title of this bill? She does not know. It is a shocker, is it not? This Government is so keen to drive through this very important legislation, but puts up speakers who do not even know the title of the bill. All the rest of those members are so keen, so devoted, and so dedicated towards passing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1c802aabfdb42f7b07ce54d35322ba9\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: She won her seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022474a9ded0efe446f8c7402f10e61d686\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: There goes the parrot. Who let this green parrot into the House? Can anyone hear it? She is squawking over there on the sidelines, but at least she has made a contribution. I do not know whether the Hansard writers will be able to write \u201CScreech!\u201D, but at least the member is in Hansard. Those Labour Party members seem to be holding a coffee session on their benches this morning. They are sitting around screeching and reading every other piece of paper except anything that has to with the legislation before the House. I watched them having a little bit of a huddle over there. I do not know whether they were organising the next knitting competition, or what. For the benefit of those members who do not know, the Labour Government is currently considering the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) and Supplementary Order Paper 85.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2d9e0d7833d45e7849ccee6bff057bc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I remind the members on my right of Speaker\u2019s ruling 51/5(3), which states that running commentaries are out of order. If members wish to make a speech, they can\u2014later on. [Interruption] Members are getting close to being disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e2b67f1ca124f5aacec9cf2c01f97ec\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is very disorderly. I seem to have hurt Labour members terribly this morning. If the bill were not dealing with such a serious matter, we could spend the whole morning heckling and debating with those members. But this is a serious bill, and that is why New Zealand First supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe hear the Government telling everybody what a wonderful job it is doing in putting the bill through, given that it came to the House in 1999. It is interesting to look at the select committee\u2019s report back. The bill was referred to the Justice and Law Reform Committee on 5 October 1999 and submissions closed on 3 March 2000. The hearing of evidence took 5 hours and 30 minutes, and consideration 9 hours and 7 minutes. That is 14 hours and 37 minutes of work by the select committee, but it has taken this Government 4 years to get the bill back to the House. What does that say? It says a lot about disorganisation. Regretfully, it probably says a lot about a lack of commitment to the serious issue of law and order in this country. There were 16 oral submissions and 27 written submissions, and 14-odd hours of work by the select committee, and the Government takes 4 years to get to this point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the work of Mr Keith Locke. Is that not a surprise? Ron Mark would probably be described by many as right of Attila the Hun, and one who feels that Attila the Hun was a poor student, but I compliment Keith Locke. Some serious issues were canvassed in this bill, and they all pertained to privacy. I look at the types of people who operate in transnational crime, organised crime, and terrorism\u2014drug-runners, gun-runners, and those sorts of people\u2014and I consider them to be dangerous lowlifes. One has only to consider September 11, and everything that has happened from then on, to realise how much more focused we need to be on countering terrorism. There are those of us who will look for what might be considered very draconian legislation, in order to protect ourselves and our communities, but there is always a balance to be struck, and that balance revolves around privacy and the protection of people\u2019s rights. Throughout the 14 hours we heard evidence on this bill, Mr Locke was always consistently concerned about\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228fddb2ebdbba4fa4bf24adc486124251\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Would members please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232cc557c833e4703a18384032ae1d3e2\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: They are quite shocking, are they not? That is the Labour Party being called to order. Its members are so rude. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMr Locke consistently worked hard to make sure that the legislation was as balanced as possible. I oppose some of the things he said, but this morning he brought to this House an amendment that read: \u201C312R Ombudsman to audit.\u201D All Mr Locke wanted was for the ombudsman to conduct an annual audit of all telecommunications interceptions carried out by the police in the previous year. Being the sort of guy who for obvious reasons would welcome police interceptions, I could not disagree with that. The people who surprised and stunned me were United Future, Jim Anderton, and Matt Robson\u2014the paragon of virtue when it comes to human rights. Matt Robson and Jim Anderton campaign the whole of their lifetimes about protecting the rights of citizens, so how could they possibly object to the ombudsman in secret, in private, without public disclosure, doing an annual audit to ensure that the interceptions done by the police had been done lawfully? How can United Future members sit there and vote against such a simple request\u2014a simple little mechanism to ensure that the democratic rights of people not to have their privacy invaded is in some measure audited? How can United Future vote against Mr Locke\u2019s amendment, or how can Matt Robson? How can people on the Labour benches, who have campaigned for years on human rights and privacy issues, vote against that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022851c54de91fc4882a74dd5306a85f67a\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: You voted for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228132549a4b1940f7ad874268b6cb0f3e\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Judy Turner. New Zealand First voted for it\u2014so did ACT, so did National. I am appalled, but, once again, I say that it is another silver bullet in my gunbelt, because come the election, I will certainly be reminding everybody on the hustings. [Interruption]\u2014There goes the parrot, Jill Pettis. Will someone let the parrot out of its cage? Crikey heck! I do not want to hear any more speeches from Labour Party people about protecting the rights and privacy of ordinary citizens, because there would be a word that I cannot use in this House but will use on the hustings, and we all know what that word is. Members should not preach to me about their concerns when they do not support a simple amendment like Mr Locke\u2019s. Mr Locke did some very good work. I do not agree with everything he says, but it is important to have a voice in the House that is consistent about such issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI want to talk about my concerns about terrorism and drug-running, and particularly about the importance of such legislation when we are dealing with methamphetamines. This legislation is about dealing with organised crime and transnational crime, which are impacting on our shores every day. I have to agree with Tony Ryall when he says that we can measure people\u2019s commitment to legislation and to law enforcement by their actions, not by their words. This Government\u2019s actions in respect of tidying up the holes in the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act\u2014for example, deferred sentencing\u2014is appalling. It took New Zealand First to expose the shortfalls in deferred sentencing, by which a person who is sent to jail for having bashed someone is then let out on to the streets, pending a home detention application. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe now find that there are also holes\u2014Labour calls them back-end detentions, but I do not know what the hell that means\u2014whereby individuals have killed with a motor vehicle, raped a woman under 16, bashed people and been charged with grievous bodily harm, threatened to kill, and tried to kill two policemen, and this Government, through its Sentencing Act and Parole Act, is now letting those people out on home detention. We now find that they are going to the gym, going shopping, going to watch the Crusaders, going out to meet their friends, and participating in the community. More important, they are using their telephones to do their unlawful business, because their telephones are not monitored. This bill will hopefully give the police some teeth to monitor more closely the telephone calls of people enjoying home detention who have proven to be violent criminals, and people associated with gangs and organised crime. It is about time that this Government got off its lazy butt and started amending the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act, as we all know it needs to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022429922bdbda54460af55d7f6d0d11fec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022429922bdbda54460af55d7f6d0d11fec\u0022\u003EMITA RIRINUI (NZ Labour\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I do not think that my speech will be longer than your pronunciation of my name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022753389e6c8b8417a9499724f7b3727d7\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I like your hairstyle.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295d46600baf640cd8b437cd8bde2ddc1\u0022\u003EMITA RIRINUI\u003C/span\u003E: There is a gentleman over there who is giving me hand signals. Naturally, I speak in support of this bill. I congratulate the Minister and the Government on introducing long-awaited measures for dealing with property crime in terms of technology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00229291fb403eaa456b83eb0a480685c1bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229291fb403eaa456b83eb0a480685c1bc\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will be voting against this bill, because although it has many good provisions in it, at the same time it seriously undermines our civil liberties by giving the police, the Security Intelligence Service, and the Government Communications Security Bureau the right to intercept our emails and hack into our computers without our even knowing that they have been there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn the Committee stage I put forward an amendment to give effect to a concern of the Privacy Commissioner. He could not see the need to allow the police hacking powers when they can already look at the contents of a computer while searching premises under warrant. That amendment failed. I moved other amendments in the Committee stage to try to make the interception process a little more accountable and transparent. I took up the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s suggestion that we have a person to audit electronic interceptions, as they do in Australia in the person of the federal ombudsman. That amendment failed. I moved another amendment to get the police to report on the average duration of interceptions, as the Security Intelligence Service currently does. That amendment failed. I moved another amendment to have subjects of interceptions notified by the police when there were no longer active investigations into them and charges had not been laid. That is the sort of notification conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the United States. That amendment failed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn this third reading I now want to concentrate on the dangers of allowing intelligence services to intercept our emails or hack into our computers. The debate over the failure of the United States to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is a good case study. Members will remember how the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, got up in the UN Security Council and provided information from alleged intelligence intercepts about how the Iraqis had weapons of mass destruction. There were all these intelligence photographs of mobile laboratories, and intelligence information about the link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, and the British had their own forged documents from the State of Niger about supposed components for an Iraqi nuclear capacity being smuggled into Iraq. All the allegations turned out to be barefaced lies, but for a while many people believed Powell, Bush, and Blair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the fundamental problems with the United States and British intelligence agencies is that they are serving political masters and political agendas. Because those agencies operate without any real public accountability, it is hard to stop the intelligence from them being distorted to serve political agendas. We saw that in the Nixon White House, and we see it in the Bush White House today. Under Nixon and earlier Presidents, all sorts of dissenters from Martin Luther King to anti-war leaders were spied on by intelligence agencies, so I do not think that we should give the New Zealand intelligence agencies such intrusive powers as exist in the bill in a light manner. We might say that our intelligence services are not like those in the United States, and nor would our politicians misuse intelligence in that way. Even if we hold that we currently have a better bunch of politicians, laws have to be written to constrain the most manipulative, anti-democratic governments that we might get in the future. In that respect, New Zealanders sometimes refer back to the Muldoon Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut there is a second important factor, and that is that our intelligence services are closely linked with those of the United States. The main interception facility of our Government Communications Security Bureau is the Waihopai satellite communications interception station near Blenheim. It pulls down millions of phone, email, and fax communications going through to international communications satellites located over the Pacific equator. The main destination for the information collected from Waihopai, and from similar stations in Australia, Canada, Britain, and the United States, is the US National Security Agency headquarters, and it will often be used for purposes that most New Zealanders would not like\u2014if they knew of them. Occasionally, we get a glimpse of that misuse, such as during an incident a few months back when a section head of the US National Security Agency, Frank Koza, issued a memo to his security people asking them to \u201Cmount a surge\u201D of interceptions against wavering nations on the UN Security Council to work out what he called their \u201Cdependencies\u201D. I presume that meant how those nations could most effectively be bribed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other problem is that our intelligence services rely to a large extent on information provided by US and British intelligence services. That is certainly true in Bush\u2019s so-called war against terrorism, which is resulting in many innocent parties getting caught up, and certainly in ethnic and religious groups being targeted and harassed. I want to show how that US influence on our intelligence services takes place here in New Zealand with an example from our Sri Lankan Tamil community. This community was very worried last year about the Terrorism Suppression Act, and organised big public meetings against it. Their fear is based on the fact that the American Government has designated the Tamil Tigers, the main organisation of Tamils in Sri Lanka, a terrorist organisation. Of course there has been a tragic civil war in Sri Lanka, with both sides guilty of inexcusable military actions against civilians, which we would all condemn. However, Amnesty International reports show clearly that the Sri Lankan Government is responsible for the great majority of the atrocities committed against civilians, yet the Sri Lankan Government was not designated a terrorist organisation by the American Government\u2014only the Tamil Tigers were. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat bias is unfortunate, because a successful peace process between the Government and the Tamil Tigers is now under way in Sri Lanka. The Bush administration has seriously undermined that peace process by, for example, denying Tamil Tiger representatives the right to attend an international donors conference held in the United States in the aftermath of the civil war. That created a big hiccup in the peace process. Thankfully, the New Zealand Government has not followed the British and Australian example in imitating the United States and designating the Tamil Tigers a terrorist organisation\u2014an act that could criminalise much of the Tamil community in New Zealand, because they overwhelmingly support the Tamil Tigers as the main force in what they see as their national struggle back home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service is still implementing the United States submissions and agendas against the Tamil community here, despite the fact that this community is the most law-abiding one could find. Last Friday, a Security Intelligence Service officer visited an organiser of a big public meeting supporting the peace process in Sri Lanka, which was to be held the next day, and asked all sorts of intrusive questions about Tamil organisations. I attended and spoke at that meeting, alongside a Minister of this Government and another MP. It is inexcusable that this sort of intervention is taking place, with the Security Intelligence Service harassing a community in our country on a US-inspired agenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI have another example that shows why we should be against giving these intrusive powers to the Security Intelligence Service and having such a link-up with foreign intelligence agencies. An asylum seeker in Paremoremo prison is currently trying to win an appeal to the Refugee Status Appeals Authority, but the Security Intelligence Service has put into effect a security risk certificate that means that even if he wins in the legal sense, he will still be deported. The service is basing its case on secret intelligence information\u2014presumably, information from foreign intelligence agencies, be they in America, France, or Algeria, which are very biased against the political organisation he is from. He was an elected MP in Algeria back in 1990. Again, it is a case of the Security Intelligence Service implementing a political agenda from overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have other cases. I get complaints from Muslim people in New Zealand that mosques are being visited by the Security Intelligence Service, and they feel intimidated by that. They say they do not want to put their heads up too much, and do not want to involve themselves in New Zealand politics too much.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e78f25276d6443aea16714f9da93eb81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e78f25276d6443aea16714f9da93eb81\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to support the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6). I was really interested to hear the Hon Tony Ryall raging about how long it has taken for the bill to come to the House. We are facing issues about world security, and powers of interception, and the bill has provisions about computer technology and new techniques that we needed to consider for inclusion. It is absolutely timely that the bill has come before the House today, and I am pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00229e8f7ca173114701a5b97b543c257241\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e8f7ca173114701a5b97b543c257241\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am glad to have the opportunity to speak in this third reading, the final debate on the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6), which was introduced by the then National Government in 1999. It was introduced as No. 6 out of, I understand, 10 or 11 bills on criminal matters introduced that year by the National Minister, the Hon Tony Ryall, and the bill reflects that. We only just removed from this bill, about half an hour ago, the provisions that reflected the great debate in 1999 on home invasion. So sitting here in front of us today we have had a whole series of amendments, required to take out references to home invasion from parts of the Crimes Act, where they have been sitting for a number of years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EMr Goff began his speech commending himself for finally getting this bill through, by gloating over the removal of the home invasion provisions. What were his reasons? According to him, people all over the country had criticised them. What were their criticisms? They were that they had been politically inspired. He told us proudly that the Court of Appeal had criticised the home invasion provisions, and criticised Parliament for putting them in. I think that that says a lot about the agenda this Government has been running in the area of crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt says an awful lot that he should think the people of New Zealand will be glad to hear that about politicians who responded to the concern about serious violent crime, which has more than quadrupled in the time I have been a lawyer\u2014that people should think it was wrong for politicians to respond to that and to pass a law that had such widespread public demand. For the Minister to think that anyone outside the tight little circles and cabals of politically correct feminists and other academics that he moves in will be glad to hear that we have responded to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225189611ba94f40218918dfc22ef4a16b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s this? As opposed to your 3.2 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272dd708c16354ee0b00c400e5435cbda\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Minister Swain has arrived. That is handy, because we will have a few comments about Minister Swain later as well. We will be commenting on the enormous amount of action that he has involved himself in, in his corrections portfolio, and the answers he has been able to give to the concerns of people who are quite rightly asking why he is letting out convicted paedophiles, rapists, and robbers into their communities, hiding them in their communities without any warning or without even letting people know, when they ask, who is coming to live next door. Mr Swain watches the news, and he buries his head in the newspaper, but he will not be burying his head in the newspaper deep enough when people finally get to the bottom of what his department has been doing to hide criminals amongst innocent people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut let me get back to the speech from Mr Goff. He told us in withering tones that the Court of Appeal had complained that the home invasion law was political. Of course it is political. What does he want\u2014a court that stands above the requirement of representative democracy? Does he like law being made by judges who cannot be removed by the people when they are sick of a lack of response to legitimate concern about where crime and justice have got to in this country? Is it a recipe for good law, to respond to those who despise democracy and who regard the word \u201Cpolitical\u201D as the ultimate insult? That is the sense of what we got from Mr Goff\u2019s speech welcoming his own inaction for 4 years on the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat does this bill do? As we heard from the Labour member who interjected earlier, this bill does not address anything that was not raised by a Government 4 years ago. It does bring up to date a few provisions that can now reflect the most current forms of computer crime, but if we were to wait until we knew all about computer crime, before passing legislation, it would never be passed. Computer crime will evolve. It was quite proper to bring this law in. It should have been passed 4 years ago, and it should have annual attention, if necessary, to bring it up to date, instead of the Government using as a justification for it having done nothing for 4 years the fact that computer crime is fast moving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E The bill delaying of the bill was criticised. But the delay was justified by Mrs Steve Chadwick on the grounds that it deals with very serious topics. Just so, Mrs Chadwick\u2014the entire area of property crime is updated in this bill. I can only surmise that the Government actually put it aside from a resurgence of that old ideological hostility to property. Government members look at the bills on the plate that they inherit when they become the Government, go through the list, and say: \u201CHere is one that is all to do with property; let\u2019s drop it.\u201D It has probably taken the Ministers 3 or 4 years to realise that burglary and property crimes are among the best indicators of the likelihood of other forms of offending, that in fact we get a better prediction of the risk of violence from offenders by looking at their burglary record, than by looking at their violence or sex-crime record, strangely enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Minister who tried to justify the delay in pushing this bill along had a complete own goal in getting Mrs Chadwick to get up and commend the Government for having delayed getting it right, when property crime should have been amongst the Government\u2019s highest priorities. If Government members really want to tackle violent crime, they should go first to the precursor crimes, the crimes that accustom young people to thinking that the law does not mean what it says\u2014the crimes that accustom young people to feeling that penalties do not mean anything, the crimes that accustom young people to feeling that other people\u2019s space and other people\u2019s castles are their own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI also want to have a quick look at just what this law does in relation to the other priorities this Government has had. We now have a maximum sentence of 7 years for reckless damage to a computer, 5 years for taking trade secrets, and 2 years for hacking. Let us compare that with some of the other offences. Changing it would have caused too much uproar, I guess, but without changing it we have blackmail at 14 years. Blackmail can be simply disclosing something about a person to cause him or her to act in accordance with the will of the person making the threat. What is wrong with saying: \u201CYou\u2019ve been lying to me and unless you resign I will have to report you to the police. Go, and don\u2019t come back.\u201D? Why should that justify a 14-year sentence when reckless damage gets only 7 years, or taking a trade secret\u2014it could be the genetic code to kiwifruit\u2014gets only 5 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe bill actually maintains a lie. It states that these maximum sentences are 7 years, when the public and the court know that 7 years actually converts to 2 years, 4 months, unless a non-parole period is set. Five years converts to 1 year, 8 months, unless a non-parole period is set. Two years automatically converts to 1 year, and there is nothing the court can do about that. Anything under 2 years means 1 year, or half the period of the sentence, and the court has no power to set a non-parole period. So the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) is fraudulent and deceptive on its face. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIf the Minister had been truly wanting to deal with priorities in crime, he would have been dealing with the series of promises he has made in relation to the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act, to deal with what he likes to call loopholes and unintended gaps that are actually a reflection of the Government\u2019s deliberate policy to treat criminals as victims of the class struggle and as unhappy products of a cruel upbringing and not responsible for their actions. He would have whipped through the bill that had been done by National. It would not have sat for 4 years. The Government would not have put the Prostitution Reform Bill in a higher place, or the Local Government Reform Bill, which set up racial constituencies for local authorities, in a higher place. Of course the Government would think that that had far higher priority than a bill to amend crime. I am glad to be able to support this bill to a conclusion; I am just sorry that it has taken so long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022062f164d750c490d8820de068bf859e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022062f164d750c490d8820de068bf859e3\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Why let the facts get in the way of a good story, right? That is the best thing that can be said about that speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277e494a9b8f841a19726888676ac1ec6\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: What about 3.2 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a944a96e17c54e15ab55ce9174425ac7\u0022\u003EMARK PECK\u003C/span\u003E: Or 3.2 percent and things like that. This bill is intended to modernise and update penalties for property offences. I notice that the leader and the deputy leader of the Opposition\u2014who is colloquially known as \u201CMr Bouncer\u201D\u2014were sitting in the back row of the Chamber worrying about their own property offences that are going on at this particular point in time. I hope the numbers stack up for them, because not many other people in this House will. I support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00221ab619b79afc46d6afcba9a859442df3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ab619b79afc46d6afcba9a859442df3\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the third reading of the bill. I address my remarks to the general background and the environment in which the bill was introduced. I do want to comment on the Hon Phil Goff, the Minister of Justice. I think we should be very grateful indeed that he found time to come to the House, in between flying between international destinations, to introduce the third reading. I just do not know how the Minister does it. He so busy in his foreign affairs portfolio: holding hands with foreign leaders, with Yasser Arafat. My goodness, is that not such a wonderful thing for him! It just underscores his burning ambition to be the leader. I guess he thinks that making more visits and holding more hands will eventually get him there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EHe is absolutely mistaken, is he not! Because he is not even allowed to run his own portfolio. Instead, it is done by that person whom we shall not name, but we know who she is. She has her nose and her hands in every portfolio, and she certainly has her hands in this one. The Minister of Justice, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, is reduced to making trips all over the world, looking busy, holding hands with foreign dignitaries, pretending he is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022565e06b82dd9441fa44dc430eb704f7b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Who with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241677912d54a4ec7bd7ebe88073591cb\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Who? One might think that, maybe, he would go and hold Bush\u2019s hand, maybe he would go and hold Tony Blair\u2019s hand. But, no, he went and held the hand of Yasser Arafat. My goodness, did not our country\u2019s reputation soar when he did that! As I say, I am amazed that he has the time to come into the House and attend to the unimportant justice portfolio. That is the way he treats the issue of crime and the real concerns of New Zealanders. As I say, he has this other big job to do\u2014being seen on all the international stages, because he has a burning desire to be the leader. No doubt, having made his speech, he is now on his way to some other foreign destination, to find some other hand to hold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e97a0effb9ee4bdfb71d6a7276726e39\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Pyongyang.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309307947dee4c4a863d0ed29a599484\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: We will see. We await the photographs in the papers and the image on television\u2014on CNN. We wait in anticipation to see whose hand he will hold next. We really do need our reputation enhanced some more! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EHaving said all that, I want to say that National supports the bill. It covers issues of absolute importance to New Zealand and to New Zealanders. I was quite amazed at Steve Chadwick, the member for Rotorua, thinking that she had to stand up and try to find an excuse as to why the bill has taken 4 years to wend its way through the process. She babbled on about advances in computer technology and that we had to wait and see what those were, so that the law could be drafted accordingly. What a load of crock! What a load of hogwash, quite frankly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Minister made excuses about why the bill has taken 4 years to reach this stage, but the public should be aware that the bill we will pass into law today is no great advance on the bill that was already there, which was introduced by my eminent colleague the Hon Tony Ryall, who was a very good Minister of Justice when we were in power. He reacted very swiftly to issues. He was on top of his job, and gave the justice portfolio the due focus that it requires. The provisions contained in the bill today were introduced by Tony Ryall 4 years ago. The Minister came down to the House and made some lame excuse for why it has taken so long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E He was followed up by the member for Rotorua, Steve Chadwick, making some more lame excuses as to why it has taken so long, but it will not wash. They might think they can use those excuses in this forum, but those sorts of excuses do not wash, out in the real land where New Zealanders live. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe whole thing is symbolised in a Dominion Post byline from earlier this year that states: \u201CHacking bill gets dusted off\u201D. It has been sitting there for 4 years gathering dust. Phil Goff comes down to the Chamber and pretends he had a good reason for it sitting around, but he did not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI also comment on something I find to be a real anomaly with the Government. It talks the talk but does not walk the walk. It is interesting, is it not, that a number of women in the Labour Government are prepared to stand up and support the Minister, and pretend that he is doing a great job in that area, yet they do that against a background of this Government allowing paedophiles and rapists out into the community to rape, abuse, and violate women and children. Those women just sit there and let it happen. That is an indictment on the women in the Government, who sit there and let that happen. They yell out across the Chamber and try to make negative aspersions about us when we were in Government, yet they sit there in 2003 and let these awful, awful people back out on to the street. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThere is also the issue around the cervical-screening proposals. Not a lot has been done on that. This Government has a significant number of women who sit there and pretend that they are walking the talk. They are not. It is a scandal when they come down to the Chamber to support a Minister of Justice who is not addressing that area in any comprehensive way, at all, and who, probably, cannot address it, because he is so busy travelling overseas. In any event, if he cannot address the issue, they should be advocating on behalf of women and children in this country. But do we hear them doing that? No. The most that we see them do is to come down the House, rise to their feet, and say: \u201CI support this bill. It is a good bill.\u201D, and sit down. In the meantime, paedophiles and rapists are out in the community, doing what they do best, because raping, abusing, and violating women and children is all they know. The women in the Government should be ashamed of themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe environment in which we live requires that we address those matters seriously, in a considered way, and in a timely fashion. The passage of this bill into law today does not have any of those features. But the substance of it is serious, and that is why the National Party supports it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022c0a3acfc34444127b6cb091aee660f3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c0a3acfc34444127b6cb091aee660f3c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E That was a tragic speech, and I do not use the word lightly, from a tragic party that sat there for 9 long years and did very little\u2014I am being generous by saying very little\u2014did nothing to address the causes of crime in this country. In fact, its legislation increased the incidence of crime. There are those of us on this side of the House who make the connection between social policy and what happens in the criminal world. I remind that member that she stuck her hand up for the introduction of market rents for the poorest group in society in this country. That was punishing the poor for being poor. That member has had the privilege of leading a very privileged life. That member has never had to grub around, looking for bread to put on her table\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d04e4f5b9f19461caa1c7a5ae5f46344\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is an aspersion against me and my family, of whom the speaker has no knowledge whatsoever. I ask you to ask her to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dae908b92e114aedbd1a16ea94f509fd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has taken offence at a personal reflection, under Standing Order 117. The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230fc232b255d43b7be43fdc73f044d3e\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: I will withdraw and apologise. Every person in this House is privileged. I am a privileged member of society. As a child, I led a privileged life, because I have a wonderful mother. That is a privilege. If that member does not think that that is a privilege, I pity her judgment on the important things in life. I might have lived on the poor side of town in a State house, but I am still very privileged, because I had a strong and resourceful mother. That is privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef1f00314a3c4e8fbc6927660f35b981\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are straying very much off the bill and the debate is getting personal. We support this bill, and I would have thought that the Government member would be saying something to support her own Government bill and to stay on the topic so it can be expedited. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264ccf2c42e624971bf33b711ae93b97e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you very much. Can the member come to the point, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ea6e227adaf4ac19df912775c23e5b2\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: The first few comments are always in rebuttal, just as the previous member strayed from the topic and spoke about Mr Goff shaking hands with Mr Arafat. I do not know what that has to do with the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6). I say that I am proud of what this Government has done to address the causes of crime in this country. New Zealand is one of the few countries that does not have legislation about computer offences, with particular reference to this type of legislation. This Government is addressing the inadequacies of the previous Government, and I am proud to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d4ce0d8b2eb94c0eb62112bd88bed97b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 6) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ebfe5d20571e424e9f873f5563b640a3\u0022\u003EWool Industry Restructuring Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd4f1330b2ce45e18056b141d5ed9e93\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6aea7348b0344519fe51b602499bba8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6aea7348b0344519fe51b602499bba8\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Agriculture)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture: I move, That the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill be now read a second time. The Wool Industry Restructuring Bill was introduced to the House on 11 December 2002. It had its first reading on 19 March 2003, after which it was referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration. The committee received and considered 33 written submissions on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill facilitates the regulatory and structural reform of the wool industry. It provides for the dissolution of the statutory New Zealand Wool Board and the allocation of its assets among woolgrowers. That will enable a greater separation of commercial and industry-good activities, and will give growers greater control of their industry organisations. Growers will be allocated shares in the commercial entities, and the industry is separately working to seek grower approval for a levy to fund industry-good activities under a new organisation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E The bill provides for the conversion of the Wool Board into the Wool Board Disestablishment Co. The disestablishment company, which will be known as \u201CDisco\u201D to the trendy wool industry, will be responsible for dealing with the residual liabilities and commitments of the board, and for implementing a restructuring plan, including the allocation of board assets to growers. The disestablishment company will also be responsible for the collection of an interim levy on wool and its expenditure for industry-good purposes, after consultation with SheepCo or a successor body established to undertake wool industry-good activities. The restructuring plan will specify that portions of the board\u2019s assets will be allocated to merino growers through Merino Grower Investments Ltd, and to another company, Wool Equities Ltd, for growers of non-merino sheep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E The bill contains provisions concerning the constitutions of the two grower companies, Wool Equities Ltd and Merino Grower Investments Ltd. Those provisions relate to restrictions on share trading during the first 2 years, which were agreed to by growers in the May 2002 referendum, and to voting rights, which will provide added security for grower assets. The bill provides for a grower\u2019s share entitlement to be based on either the average number of sheep the grower has farmed as at 30 June 2000, 2001, or 2002, taken over the years that the grower had sheep, or the number farmed at 30 June 2002, whichever is the greater. That ensures that growers who have progressively increased their sheep numbers over the 3 years are not disadvantaged compared with those who have recently entered the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Government will be introducing a Supplementary Order Paper to make minor technical amendments to two clauses. The Supplementary Order Paper will amend clauses 20B(2)b and 20C(2)b. Those clauses deal with the allocation of shares to growers, and the changes will ensure that such allocations are fairly made to growers who have both merino and non-merino sheep. Growers of sheep other than merino sheep will have the opportunity to cash in their redeemable preference shares or to convert them to ordinary shares in Wool Equities Ltd. Because Merino Grower Investments Ltd considers it has sufficient capital, the disestablishment company will redeem the redeemable preference shares and merino growers will be paid the appropriate amounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe Minister of Agriculture must approve the restructuring plan, including the plans for share allocation, before its implementation can commence. The Wool Board\u2019s preferred restructuring day is the first day of September 2003. That date, if met, would enable share allocations to be made to growers by the end of this year. To that end, the board is working towards having its restructuring plan ready for submission to me later this month. Wool Equities Ltd and Merino Grower Investments Ltd are respectively aiming to have a prospectus and information memorandum ready to be distributed to growers, with a notice of their entitlements, shortly after the restructuring day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMinister Sutton and I would like to thank the members of the Primary Production Committee for their consideration of the bill, and for the report tabled on 16 June 2003. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2cb6112a13c4013a1743351ab77c41e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2cb6112a13c4013a1743351ab77c41e\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to welcome this legislation to the House, even if it has taken a long time to get here. In the rural community this legislation is a further signal of the massive change that has gone on\u2014a change in attitudes, in farming practice, and in the way that people see the path to a successful future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIt has been a long, hard road to get this legislation here to the House. In 1991, as a brand new MP, I can recall going to a large farmer meeting in Gore to discuss the hugely controversial decision made by the Wool Board then to withdraw its price support scheme. It is not so very long ago that the New Zealanders who produced wool were tied up in price support schemes. At that stage, the board also made controversial decisions like cutting back the contribution to the International Wool Secretariat. To my mind, as a long-suffering levy payer to the Wool Board, the contribution to the International Wool Secretariat really summed up the problems that needed to be solved in the Wool Board. In 1990 the Wool Board donated $90 million of farmers\u2019 money to the International Wool Secretariat\u2014a contribution that it stoutly defended\u2014but, under pressure, it was suddenly able to cut that in half and still argue that it was about the right amount. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ESo the Wool Board is a relic of a bygone age. It came from a time when the statutory boards were the on-ramp to the protein highway to Britain. They were convenient Government structures that were able to organise the flow of product to the British market. But unfortunately, that market became unhitched from New Zealand some 30 years ago, and it is only today that we are finally putting the board out of its misery, now that its functions have long since ceased to be useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe rural community has changed dramatically, and this bill is a sign of that. In particular, the attitudes of today\u2019s producers have changed. It used to be the peak of a farmer\u2019s achievement to become a member of the electoral college, which was the body that decided on who would become members of the Wool Board. There was a very clear career path, and many of the more competent, more skilled, and, certainly, more articulate farmers went down that path. They started out by becoming the chairperson of the local meat and wool section of Federated Farmers, then gradually worked themselves up the tree, and if they were elected to the Wool Board itself, they were then entitled to trips around the world to talk to the board\u2019s customers. The Wool Board had salubrious headquarters here in Wellington. Its members talked to the Minister of Agriculture and to all sorts of important and official people, and the main function of the board was to maintain its political viability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EIn that respect, the board let farmers down. I can still remember receiving the receipts for the wool that I was selling, and looking at the line that deducted 6 percent of the gross income. For many years, that exceeded the profits that most sheep farmers in Southland would make. I am pleased to see that over the decade of the 1990s wool producers came to realise that the board was essentially a political body, not a commercial one, and that any organisation that has a guaranteed, statutorily declared income like the Wool Board levy is bound to become lazy and unfocused, and is bound to spend much of that resource on the maintenance of its own political viability. I can remember the Wool Board running a campaign about $5 a kilogram and 5 kilograms of wool on every sheep, and it sounded great. It was a public relations idea, and the board members went around the country, whipping up the enthusiasm of farmers. Within 2 years the price was about half that, because it had dropped precipitously. The Wool Board needs to be more than restructured, and in some respects this bill is misnamed, because it abolishes the Wool Board. I am very pleased to be able to stand in this House and to see that happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want to pay a tribute to the leadership of the farming community, which has finally brought this bill to this House, and which will bring about the ultimate dismantling of the Wool Board. I will mention two people in particular\u2014Geoff Grant and Mike Petersen. Those people represent a new generation of farmer politicians who understand that their main function is to bring about change, not to maintain the status quo, because markets and farming practice change so quickly. Therefore, the organisations that are the conduit between the farmer and the market need to change very quickly. Of course, the Wool Board, because of the statutory protection it was given by this Parliament for so many years, did not change quickly. The changes it went through were very painful, slow, and expensive. However, in the future we will have no cause to have to spend parliamentary time, as we have done a lot over the last decade, on trying to adapt that out-of-date organisation to contemporary pressures and times. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Wool Board did some good things, and I see that this bill makes the attempt to preserve the desirable aspects of what was there. I want to refer to a couple of organisations that are important to the industry but that need to be subject to commercial pressures, rather than to political sponsorship. The first is Wool Services International. The wool industry is one that has a continuous need for higher and higher levels of understanding of the product, and of the market requirements for that product. Various organisations have contributed to technology transfer in order to increase the skills and knowledge of the industry about the product that it produces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI also want to refer to the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand. It has been typical of many publicly funded science organisations, and the Wool Board levy has been virtually equivalent to public funding. The Wool Research Organisation has done some excellent science. It has also chewed up millions and millions of dollars on projects of dubious merit, and in the end there has been no real test by the industry or by the market of the activities of that organisation. However, the intellectual capital that is there in the form of some outstanding people and some excellent ideas can be carried over into the new environment. We want to make sure that that is the case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI am pleased to see that there has been a very vigorous discussion about the issue of what amounts to public good in the wool industry. A feature of that discussion has been the role of research. In the past the agricultural industry has relied far too much on the Government and on levies to fund its research. It is my hope that the wool industry will follow the path that the meat industry is starting to follow without the automatic funding of the levies, and without relying totally on Government funding for all aspects of research. I hope that the industry will take on some of that role itself and will take responsibility for long-term investment and research, in order to get a better understanding of the enormous potential of the protein-based products that we produce so effectively and so cheaply, and that it will take some of the risks that go with investments that use biotechnology to increase returns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe stand four-square behind this bill. I know there will be debate about the detail, but it is long past time that the Wool Board was dismantled and the industry was able to get on with its own future, subject to the pressures of the world market and the strong incentives that that puts on participants in the industry to do a good job for New Zealand, as well as for the sake of their own profits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022baae3065a569445f8ce1ae4980edd018\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022baae3065a569445f8ce1ae4980edd018\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the abolition of the Wool Board, which is really what this bill is about, as the leader of the National Party has just said. However, we will introduce amendments in the Committee stage to provide that the abolition of the Wool Board should be just that, and that the process set out in the bill should not continue thereafter without the oversight of a statutory manager to investigate it. The Wool Board is being disestablished\u2014or got rid of, as one says\u2014but in the view of New Zealand First and, I am sure, of some of the members of the Primary Production Committee, farmers are unsure of what is to come after that. Farmers voted to get rid of the Wool Board; of that there is no doubt. Whether they voted to put the same old faces in different places for the future is a matter of some doubt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI make no apology whatsoever for saying that New Zealand First\u2019s amendments are based on the submission of Mr Phil Verry of the International Wool Corporation, who has said that farmers do not know what is coming after the disestablishment of the Wool Board, and that we need to take a far closer look at that. A lot of companies are being set up. One needs to understand what they are all about, and, more important, to have the farmers understand what they are all about. The question that should be asked at that stage is whether that is what farmers want. Do they want to have the Wool Board continue in many different guises with, basically, the same people running things, or do they want to stop the board there and do their own thing, and, indeed, to sell off or not to continue with some of the companies that are proposed? The companies are all being set up; many have been set up as we speak, and prior to this legislation going through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is true to say that people whom we respect have advised the select committee well and diligently. I understand that they had no option but to advise us in the way that they did\u2014that is, to preach caution and to say to us that this bill is the result of a farmer referendum. I understand that the Minister of Agriculture said that if farmers agreed to bring a restructuring plan to him, the Government would implement it. The officials subsequently had no option but to carry on down that line of advice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EHowever, questions arise in relation to the setting up of the companies\u2014Ovita, Covita, Merino Grower Investments, Wool Equities, Canesis Venture Capital, and Canesis Network, which we only learnt about as the select committee was winding down its deliberations on this bill, and one suspects that there are more companies to come. New Zealand First says that if there is any doubt it should be dispelled, that it is best dispelled by an independent person, and that it is best dispelled by this House preaching caution in these matters. If there is no suspicion, and if nothing is untoward and everything is as it should be, then, of course, the plan should go ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI cannot help but mention the fact that the $100 million that is commonly talked about that the Wool Board has in reserves was built up during World War II\u2014if one believes that\u2014and has been carried forward since then. Many submitters have said they have paid the levies, the Wool Board is being wound up, and they want what is left over of those levies to be paid back to them. But that is not to be the case. That money was put aside in the heyday of the wool industry, and it is a sad story that its heyday was back in World War II, and that it has since been seriously depleted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4af72f61ae458b86b653a4d195c7ba\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s wool, not hay!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7b260806e6e459d895ff06c4c8227ad\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague tells me that it is wool and not hay, and he is absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E We are told that the average farmer\u2014bearing in mind that people with fewer than 250 sheep are, as from 30 June, I think, disbarred from participating in an allocation of cash or redeemable shares, and that we are talking about quite substantial farmers, having ruled those smaller ones out\u2014will receive, individually, in the vicinity of only $1,500 to $2,000. That is an average, and averages are dangerous. So the pot of gold that farmers thought at the beginning of this process would be there for them has been seriously depleted, and I think the mood amongst farmers is very much one of not caring what happens. They just want the Wool Board to go. They are not expecting a whole lot of payout from it, but say there is a curse on its house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThat being the case, I think it is absolutely appropriate that we have the amendments in my name that are before the House to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a765d4425e417788c1b9f31629c52c\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who wrote them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254066e1442b3442ca5fd342c2145d8c0\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is being facetious; he knows I am not a lawyer. I should have been one, but I am not. Writing amendments is not my cup of tea, and I freely admit that. Nevertheless the amendments are in my name, and they are a precaution. Even though I am not sure whether all the parties of my fellow members on the select committee will vote for my amendments, I am sure they address a concern that all the members on the select committee had to a degree\u2014it is just a matter of the degree to which the matter concerned them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI sum up by saying that New Zealand First supports the abolition of the Wool Board. It has doubts about the companies that are to be set up, with the same old faces appearing in different places. However, we will address that by introducing our amendments at the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00222dcfa57e32624e4da685489b7c757fbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222dcfa57e32624e4da685489b7c757fbd\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I will take only a very short call on this bill and say to the member who preceded me that one of the things I miss about not being on the Primary Production Committee is being there for his deliberations. He is a humorous member. He says he is not a lawyer, but can I tell him he is probably a better lawyer than he was a farmer\u2014and he might take that as a compliment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI simply want to say that this bill continues with the restructuring of our primary industries, and it is a good piece of legislation. I pass on a little bit of thanks to a person who has not been mentioned so far in this debate, a bloke called Robin Campbell. He is a farmer who lives just outside the Otago electorate. He is on the AgResearch board and has done quite a bunch of research work in that area. I certainly want to pass on my congratulations to him on the work he has done on this bill, and to the select committee on the work it has done in bringing the bill back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022103b34b93d78488085a586d78bf9ec17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022103b34b93d78488085a586d78bf9ec17\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E If the House is prepared to listen very carefully, it will hear a huge sigh of relief throughout the whole of rural New Zealand this very morning, because I believe that this is the day that the Wool Board is finally euthanised\u2014the day on which it will meet its maker. It is appropriate in this second reading to reflect\u2014and the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Bill English, did that\u2014on where we have been and where we have come to on this very day in the year 2003. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI personally think back to the days of the Korean wool boom, which were the halcyon days of the wool industry\u2014the days when the public from the towns and cities went out to the country to pick the wool off barbwire fences to sell, such was the demand for that product back in the 1950s. Then both Australia and New Zealand went into times of having huge stockpiles of wool, for which we could get virtually nothing. So we have gone round in many circles in this industry. In my days of farming in the early 1970s, there was a great wool-acquisition debate, in which it was determined that if some structure acquired all the wool and had an orderly marketing system, things would be brilliant. The growers rejected it then, and I suspect that if they had the same opportunity today, they would reject it again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIt is also appropriate that I give recognition to Owen Jennings, the former member of Parliament who was responsible for drawing to the public\u2019s attention\u2014certainly, he reflected in this House the views of the farming community\u2014the inadequacies of the huge monolithic structure that the Wool Board came to be. Owen worked very hard, at considerable personal cost to himself, to ensure that the Wool Board was finally put to rest. This is a day he can take real pride in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, the wool industry has lurched from crisis to crisis. Growers had the view that they were throwing good money after bad, and that the auction system was a method whereby they just dumped their product on the auction room floor and hoped that somebody turned up to buy it. Essentially, that was the marketing system we had, and still have to this day. But major refinements to the wool industry have been made. I believe that the archaic attitudes that were displayed in the past are being whittled away very consistently, and that we are now moving quite strongly towards a very commercially focused industry. \u201CMarketing\u201D and \u201Cresearch and development\u201D are the operative words we use today when talking about the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe cannot help but reflect on the days of the Wool Board when farmers were very perplexed\u2014which, I think, is a nice way of putting it\u2014about the world trips its members took, and they saw an attitude of \u201Cjobs for the boys\u201D, and so on. The board always talked about accountability. It said it could account for every dollar it spent, but it was interesting to note that nobody ever accused the board of performance. What is required today in this very competitive commercial world is performance, not just accountability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EReport after report was done, until finally the McKinsey report came through and recommended that a vote take place on whether the board should be retained, or got rid of and replaced by some other structure. I agree with my colleagues from this side of the House that the vote taken on the McKinsey report was, in essence, purely on one issue, and it was that the farmers wanted to get rid of the board. In my view, they did not actually vote in favour of the structures that have been put in place by the board. With advice received during the select committee process, I have, with some reluctance, come to accept that to protect the massive tax losses, for example, and to protect the intellectual property of the Wool Board and the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand, it is necessary to ensure that other structures are put in place when the Wool Board is finally laid to rest. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI think that is entirely appropriate, just as a few years back it was entirely appropriate for merino growers to tell the Wool Board that it was not performing, that they could do a better job, and that they wanted the right of self-determination. It was with huge reluctance that the board finally relented and allowed Merino New Zealand to do its own thing, and, relatively speaking, it has been very successful by comparison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EOther individual growers have done the job that the board should have done. I can think of two highly successful growers in my region, Jeanette and Russell Emerson, who have contributed enormously to the development of the fine wool industry. They would go to Italy and knock on the doors of processors and sell their wool directly. They were vertically integrated\u2014if one likes. There were people throughout the industry who wanted the opportunity to develop the industry the way it should be. They certainly challenged the fiefdom\u2014and that is what it was\u2014of the Wool Board, and finally its hours and minutes are running out, and that is great to see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWool has been one of the great products of New Zealand\u2014as a carpet, a furnishing, a suit, or whatever\u2014but we have to understand that, in essence, wool is a protein. Its base is pure protein, and that is where the future lies for wool. I have no doubt that the real future will lie with organisations that can take wool and turn it into a product that the world really demands, not just some sort of article to keep. That is why Canesis has been set up. The Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand is an incorporated society and cannot raise money. It needs those commercial organisations under the very capable stewardship of Richard Bentley\u2014a very commercially focused and performance-focused individual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EAlthough I accept that it is a huge article of faith to ask the growers of this country to yet again stump up with their money and invest in the industry, I think the bill gives this industry and those woolgrowers an opportunity\u2014and that is all it is\u2014to invest in their own future with a pure commercial focus. Although I personally have very real doubts about where we are heading, sometimes one just has to take that article of faith, that giant leap, and hope that one has appointed the right people. Surely the reality in this commercial world of ours is not the system but the individuals. It is the people who run the systems who will take any industry forward. It is absolutely crucial that we attract and retain the very best people, and I think we have taken a giant step forward in that direction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022680483ecfada44cbad4a61df45f46c1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022680483ecfada44cbad4a61df45f46c1e\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the bill. First, it is interesting being a member of the Primary Production Committee where there is a great deal of unanimity and consensus\u2014unlike another committee I chair that is highly political. Maybe it is because the issues are rural ones, but we tend to cooperate in a way that I think brings a lot of esteem and honour to this place. Although we all support the bill\u2014[Interruption] A Green member does not, and I apologise. Although most of us support the bill, we echo the words of Doug Woolerton: \u201CWe gave it a lot of scrutiny.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EIt is worth pointing out that although growers have given us a mandate to do this, and the Government and other parties in the House have said that they will do what the industry wants to do\u2014in this case, restructure\u2014the point should be made, as Mr Woolerton said, that after 2 years growers can sell their shares. I think they will receive in the order of $2,000 or $3,000 each, but they have an ownership cap of around 5 percent. However, I can recall that when the Primary Production Committee was doing the Fonterra legislation at the same time as the fruit legislation, the concern it had was somehow to preserve the cooperative structure of the dairy industry to prevent the sort of corporate burgle and raid that ENZA and fruitgrowers were put through by the Guinness Peat Group. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs a Government we have done what growers wanted. This bill is mandated by growers, and this Government will adhere to that. My hope is that at the end of that 2-year period, before growers decide to sell or retain their shares, they will acknowledge that there are huge issues at stake. For instance, Mr Woolerton has pointed out the huge public good, the research, and the intellectual property that exist within a number of entities in this structure\u2014Covita is an example\u2014and even though there is a 5 percent cap, any person who has run a business could argue that growers could make their industry vulnerable to a corporate raid. But once this bill is passed, that will be a decision for growers. I support the bill because it is mandated by industry, but I hope that at the end of that 2-year period, growers will look very carefully at how their industry could change in terms of corporate raid or outside input, and at how the cooperative structure they have had for many years could change should they decide to sell their shares. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that 5 percent, plus 5 percent, plus a few other blocks of shares could end up producing a controlling or dominant interest through intangible relationships between entities or growers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EAs Gerry Eckhoff pointed out, there has been huge progress in the wool industry. The select committee went to the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand and saw the amazing things that are happening with wool. As Mr Eckhoff said, with wool being a protein, that organisation is turning it into all sorts of products, and that is a magnificent thing for the industry. Again, I just hope that growers will acknowledge that and the huge value they have if they choose to maintain that sort of cooperative control in their industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003EI support the bill. It is good legislation, and I believe that it will deliver what the industry wants. It is also fair to say that, as Mr Woolerton pointed out, a large amount of the motivation for providing a mandate for this legislation is that growers, for whatever reason, have had a gutsful of the Wool Board. Finally, I say again that I hope growers will think carefully when actioning their shares 2 years hence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u00229919efe9dd3a4e09a10a6597d769f82a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229919efe9dd3a4e09a10a6597d769f82a\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens oppose this bill. We support the disestablishment of the Wool Board, but from that point on we part company with what Clayton Cosgrove has just mentioned. We do not believe that there is a mandate from farmers for this restructuring. As a consequence of that, this is bad legislation. It is predicated on the basis that there is a mandate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI want to take members through some of the figures to illustrate why I do not believe that there has been a mandate. First, there are around 28,000 woolgrowers in New Zealand. Of those, 12,000, in round figures, have fewer than 250 sheep, and those people were not entitled to vote. Already 40 percent of potential voters were disenfranchised, even though those people paid levies to the Wood Board\u2014sometimes for many years. Sixteen thousand people who owned more than 250 sheep on 30 June 2002 were eligible to vote, but only around 40 percent of those did vote. Sixty percent of the growers were entitled to vote, and 40 percent of them did, so a total of 24 percent of the total number of woolgrowers in New Zealand actually voted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThe next question is why the vote was put as only one question. Why were the farmers given only the choice of getting rid of the Wool Board and accepting the new structure? Was it so hard to have two votes, to ask them whether they wanted to get rid of the Wool Board, yes or no? There would have been an overwhelming vote in favour of getting rid of the Wool Board, but did farmers actually understand what they were getting? Did they vote \u201CYes, we do want this new structure.\u201D? I doubt it. I do not think that they thought that through, at all. They thought that anything had to be better than the Wool Board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI am also very concerned that the people who ran the Wool Board\u2014the organisation that has been dysfunctional for many years\u2014have also been influential in the creation of the new structure. Did they engage in true consultation with the woolgrowers? That is a very leading question. I know that McKinsey did a survey, and it believed that it had a mandate from farmers for this structure, but there seems to be some evidence that McKinsey was instructed to come up with the new structure. If that were the case, it may be that premeditation was involved in this consultation. I remind members and farmers of the Wellington Airport case where the company was accused of not doing proper consultation. The company had an outcome in mind. It went to the shareholders and said: \u201CThis is what we\u2019re going to do.\u201D It believed that that was consultation! The court found against the company. If there is premeditation in the consultation process, then that becomes legally challengeable. I urge farmers to think about whether there was any premeditation in the way they were consulted; if so, they have a right for that consultation process and the mandate to be legally challenged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EAnother question I have about the consultation process is whether the farmers actually understood what the reforms would mean to them in a practical sense. I personally doubt it. I am a woolgrower myself, but the information I received seemed so complex at the time that I just dismissed it. To be fair, though, at that point I had sold all my sheep\u2014I was coming into Parliament\u2014so I was not entitled to vote anyway. I did not really engage, but, on a serious note, I do not consider myself to be an idiot\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f6a5be1e6b4306a08a72b64fc5fe6e\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Everyone else does!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ce1c63c811f47848d09ce12f9a3a23a\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Can we have a party vote on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022439d67a853bf49eeadf234369b30036e\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: It is a real surprise! I do not consider myself to be an idiot, but I really struggled to come to terms with the complexity of these new structures. They are needlessly complex. Do farmers, or any members of the Primary Production Committee, or any of the officials, or anybody in the world, understand the intimate interrelationship between organisations like Wool Equities, SheepCo, the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand, Keratec, Ovita, Covita, merino growers, non-merino growers, and many others that I cannot remember? [Interruption] Gerrard Eckhoff, who assures me that he has led a life of blameless excellence, does understand the complexity of those new structures, and I can only aspire to his intellectual grip. I do not understand it, and I doubt that very many people do. I am pretty well certain that farmers do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI am also reasonably certain that farmers do not understand how the assets that were accumulated\u2014primarily from World War II, as Doug Woolerton said\u2014have been diluted over time, and that the control of those assets is slipping away from farmers under this restructuring. Do they really understand what they are getting with this restructuring? Do they understand that the distribution of assets amongst farmers will, on average, come to around $1,500 or $2,000 for a big farmer? A fluctuation in the currency will give them that amount of money. It is a drop in the ocean for a big farmer. We should not forget the 12,000 woolgrowers who are disenfranchised. They could not even vote, because they had fewer than 250 sheep, even though they pay their levies. So what has happened to the $100 million in assets? Do farmers retain control of those assets? I do not think so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThat is bad enough, but the worst for me came after the select committee hearings concluded. At that point, we were informed that two new structures were being introduced into this already complex structure. They were called Canesis Network and Canesis Venture Capital. If their existence became apparent only after the submissions to the committee had closed, how could anyone believe that farmers had given that structure a mandate? They had never heard of those companies, so they could not have given them a mandate. The average cocky would not have even heard of those names. The consultation about Canesis was non-existent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI believe that there is premeditation in this consultation process, and, as such, I believe it can be legally challenged. I believe that, because there is no mandate for this restructuring. Everything that happened after the abolition of the Wool Board is farcical. I will be supporting Doug Woolerton\u2019s amendment to remove a lot of the latter part of the bill. I think we need to put the Wool Board assets in the hands of a statutory manager and let him or her decide the best thing to be done for farmers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI point out that the ownership of Canesis Venture Capital consists of industrial members and other investors\u2014no farmers there. The governance of Canesis Network consists of seven directors: two appointed by Wool Equities\u2014that is, by farmers\u2014three by the Wool Research Organisation, which is now pretty much a stand-alone research organisation, and two by Canesis Venture Capital. Therefore, two of the seven votes are from farmers. Is that what farmers voted for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022705418d18cd5472fa3fa12439f1a2cc2\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006a6215791847448eba24d9ab8b056c\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Mr Woolerton; it is not what farmers voted for. They were not consulted, because Canesis Network and Canesis Venture Capital did not come into existence until after the consultation. I am not often a conspiracy theorist, but this structure has my crap-detector going off full bore. It seems to me that this is a classic set-up to rip off farmers\u2019 assets into the hands of corporate raiders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3ed73e1b5054ad7aaa5718cdbb0e71e\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: It smacks of scampi!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc9f0694fcbb42498172ad8ce8dc0e1c\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: It smacks of ENZA, I can tell the member that. I would very much like my thoughts of a conspiracy theory to be proved wrong. I put this matter to the Minister and to the officials\u2014and to their credit the officials have done their best\u2014but I still have serious doubts about this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00221fe6055dbefa448383c39261b5123ae4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fe6055dbefa448383c39261b5123ae4\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I delayed taking a call on this bill, because I wanted to allow the members who have been on the Primary Production Committee and have vastly greater experience of the wool industry than I do to speak first. Some of those who are unfamiliar with this bill may be surprised to learn that the issues it addresses have been the subject of considerable debate and controversy within the wool industry over a number of years. United Future had no representation on the select committee that examined the bill, and, as someone looking at the bill from outside this process, I can say that the issues surrounding the restructuring of the wool industry are challenging in their complexity. I hazard to suggest that the MPs who did sit on the committee also found it challenging to untangle the network of organisations involved in this process, and I think they have done a very good job in trying to address the concerns of the 33 groups and individuals who made submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe most important changes that the committee has made have been in response to a lingering concern that the new grower-owned organisations would be vulnerable to corporate raiders who might strip assets by acquiring a majority stake, as occurred following the restructuring of the pipfruit industry. Vulnerable assets include accumulated tax losses and intellectual property, and funds to be invested in the joint-venture biotech firms Ovita and Covita. The draft company constitutions prohibit the sale of shares to non-growers for the first 2 years, and prevent shareholders from holding more than 5 percent. Those restrictions can be changed only by amending the constitution. Fifty-eight percent of growers approved this proposal in the referendum. The committee included a new clause specifying that those safeguards be included in the constitutions. Final approval of the constitutions and the restructuring plans is in the hands of the Minister of Agriculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EUnited Future is reasonably satisfied that these changes will help to safeguard the assets of the growers, but the only real way in which that can be guaranteed is if the growers get involved in these organisations themselves. An example of this can be found in the recent announcement of the restructuring of the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand into Canesis Network, which has resurrected concerns about corporate raiders, as the effort to attract investor capital is likely to reduce grower shareholding. This bill\u2014nor this Parliament\u2014cannot stop that restructuring from taking place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe have had many calls to put this bill on hold so that there can be a fresh invitation for a mandate from growers across the country. But no one here is convinced that that would produce an outcome any different from the one we are facing right now. In fact, in conversations that I have had, the growers themselves have admitted that if a referendum or a mandate was sought to be achieved in the next few months, there would still be a huge lack of participation. Even if meetings were held in woolsheds across the country for a year to try to explain the new structures, it is unlikely that we would end up with a different result. The structures themselves are complex, and it would take an enormous effort to try to explain them satisfactorily.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn my first reading speech on this bill I urged the woolgrowers of New Zealand to participate, and to become involved in the submission process at the Primary Production Committee, and I do commend the 33 submitters who did come to the select committee. I think they have seen satisfaction in some of the changes that have been recommended. But, without going into great detail, I say that the best way that the growers can ensure their interests are represented is to make sure they become active in the new entities, Wool Equities and SheepCo, which will have interests in Canesis Network.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOther changes recommended include a cut in the number of directors appointed to the transitional company from a maximum of seven to five. The directors may still be selected from the current directors of the Wool Board, despite the widespread disillusionment with those personnel amongst growers, and the suspicion that the reforms are designed to perpetuate their careers. As Doug Woolerton has said, the same faces appearing in new places is of concern, but the answer to that concern is participation by the growers themselves. There is also a fear that those same personnel will install themselves in the top positions of the new entities, as I said. Once again, if the growers want to change the situation, all that they need to do is to get involved in these organisations, and to make sure they vote for those whom they want to lead them. The Minister has yet to approve the final constitutions, but from the drafts it is clear that there will be opportunities for the growers to have a say on who sits on the boards. I would like to say that there could be some improvement to the bill to make it clear that the new directors, particularly those of Wool Equities, would need to face re-election at the first annual general meeting. That is not clear to me in the draft, and I think it would be an improvement to make sure that it was clearly spelt out, so that the growers would know that within a year\u2019s time they could give a mandate to that board through an election process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe select committee extended the eligibility criterion for shares from a raw number of 250 sheep on 30 June 2002, to incorporate the average over the last 3 years. But calls to set a lower minimum were rejected. Any number that is set will be arbitrary, and although growers with fewer than 250 sheep may have contributed levies over a long time, some threshold has to be set that will overcome the transaction costs of distributing the shares. After all, we are talking about only around $100 for someone who has 100 sheep. Merino growers will not be able to swap their redeemable preference shares in the transitional company for shares in Merino Grower Investments, because it already has enough capital, but the growers will still get exchangeable shares that can be converted into ordinary shares.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAlthough the committee addressed some of the growers\u2019 concerns, particularly those surrounding the issue of corporate takeovers, others remain. It is still claimed that there is no mandate for the new structure, as the referendum results reflected an overwhelming urge to dismantle the board, rather than necessarily constituting an endorsement of an alternative model. This point has been spoken to by other members before me. Some also point to the low turn-out and say that there is even less of a mandate for the proposed restructuring. By that logic most Presidents of the United States have not held a mandate to govern the United States. President Clinton in 1992 and 1996 was elected on less than 26 percent of the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd428f0f718846c18a47023201418351\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cda2280f0d53418d9f1a55a206e38def\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: If someone does not vote, then it is very difficult for him or her to complain about the outcome with any credibility. Unfortunately, this malaise is reflected in the industry, and the growers need to think about their own involvement in it. Granted, their interest may not be heightened by the complex nature of the structural reforms, but if the referendums did not offer a mandate for new structures, what alternatives did those growers have in mind when they voted? It would have been impractical to remove the Wool Board yet not think about what would be done in the aftermath. But growers are practical people, and I think that if they do want to have some influence over the new entities, there will come a point where most of them want to go past all the restructuring details, and to find out what the entities might offer growers once they are set up. The best way for them to ensure that the new bodies work for them is to get involved in them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EFrom the point of view of those running Wool Equities, there will be a big incentive to listen to the growers and to respond to them in order to ensure that they hold their shares. Growers will have representation on the Wool Research Organisation through their involvement in SheepCo and through their involvement in Wool Equities, on the other side of Canesis Network. I believe that we are offering them the best we possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccdbe07f1b5d400b96152f8714833982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccdbe07f1b5d400b96152f8714833982\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to stand in support of this bill. The National Party, as members have heard over the last few months, has always supported the dissolution of the Wool Board, and National recognises that we do so with the overwhelming support of farmers in the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIt all started a long time ago, of course, in the 1990s. I acknowledge John Luxton, who started the process during the forth-fifth Parliament. John made quite a contribution during the 1990s. He had vision. He worked with all sorts of other people in the industry to see this measure go through, and now, in the forty-seventh Parliament, we are seeing this bill pass. One would think that it would be passed today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI must say that the members of the Primary Production Committee were put under tremendous pressure not just because we had to deal with Ian Ewen-Street\u2019s endless questions, intelligent though they were, but also because of the time frames we had to work with. Ian Ewen-Street is the Green member of the committee. He is the member who galvanises that select committee, there is no doubt about that, but he galvanises it against him. The bill is already behind time. The Hon Jim Sutton promised that this bill would be introduced at the end of November. It was not introduced until 11 December 2002, and David Carter, the select committee chairperson, was under tremendous pressure to ensure that it went through. The Minister promised that it would be passed by early May. It was not. The restructuring date in the bill is 1 July. That is outdated now. Mr Sutton has been behind the game the whole way through, and I think members should acknowledge that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBut we have brought the bill to this stage. It will pass today with the National Party\u2019s support, but there is no doubt that that is because of the select committee process. The select committee was efficient. We listened to concerns and re-listened to concerns. We all received unsolicited mail, and solicited mail as well, and we saw David Carter bring this bill through the whole process. So I acknowledge him and my colleague Shane Ardern as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EA number of issues that were of concern were brought up during the select committee process. The first concern was about the mandate whereby 97 percent of farmers voted to see the Wool Board disestablished. Concerns were raised as to whether, when they did that, they voted for what would be established in its place in the future. But 97 percent of farmers did vote in favour. Although there was only a 36 percent turn-out, that is a good turn-out in the farming industry. I do not think anyone would argue against that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feb76dd2e7304ae4a479c4ca25a49a80\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Better than the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b13b358833334ba3b2ab6908795370ce\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Clayton Cosgrove, I know, would be delighted to have a 36 percent turn-out of even his board members in his local electorate, so let us not argue about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe second issue of concern to people was the Meat Industry Association\u2019s claim on, I think, $41 million of reserves. The select committee considered that. We appreciated the argument but, ultimately, two things nullify it to a greater degree. Firstly, the reserves were actually not recent levies but World War II payments\u2014that applies to some of the issue. Secondly, although the Meat Industry Association acknowledges that it paid part of the more recent levy, that sum was then deducted from the price of lamb. If a $100 killing sheep was sold, $60 would go one way, but part of the remaining $40 was the Meat Board levy, ultimately. So we believe that, to a greater or lesser degree, that particular issue has been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThirdly, there was concern about the number of sheep a farmer should own before he got part of the assets. Ninety-three percent of farmers, as I said before, supported the concept of the shareholding being based on sheep numbers. The Greens wanted the number to be 100 sheep, the rest of us were satisfied with 250, and 250 it will be. I do not know how many sheep that Green member runs on his farm, but we felt that 100 was a little low, so we have settled on 250.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe fourth issue was to do with the Wool Board presenting a restructuring plan to the Minister of Agriculture. The information we have about Canesis Network came to the Primary Production Committee late, and we acknowledge that it has come late to farmers. But we believe that we have beefed up the requirements for a report to be made to the Minister, and that concern will be addressed in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESo, with those issues addressed, I leave this second reading to other speakers. I hope that they will support, along with the National Party, the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022eafe7d96b4b440498edbe546486e3daf\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002271ea1b12c7144918a7664bb595bda238\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271ea1b12c7144918a7664bb595bda238\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022274addb1e0b649a3944d93c02c711db1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022989ef626973f477295753645673925a3\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00228b490c666083455a99fdece57d0f6f40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b490c666083455a99fdece57d0f6f40\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think it should be recorded at this stage of the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill that, as indicated by the New Zealand First agriculture spokesman, Doug Woolerton, we have put together some amendments. Bearing in mind that they are of a legal nature and will be put at the end of the debate on the various parts, we are looking at putting the amendments to Part 2 individually, but the amendments to Part 3\u2014amendments 5 to 16\u2014together. New Zealand First is looking at the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f279437989274f3ab7fd7057966dfb2e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: We can do those amendments when we come to Part 2, if the member wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225101ef999dba410299634fd950a5638e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to speak very briefly on the title, which talks about wool industry restructuring. New Zealand First is concerned about the extent of everything that has taken place, as was indicated by Doug Woolerton. We are quite happy to take the full role of an Opposition in this matter. The Greens appear to be supporting the amendments we are putting forward so that there can be better protection and wider consideration of this matter on the part of all the farmers of New Zealand, who possibly do not fully understand what is being undertaken in the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill, as it is called. It is not just a case of restructuring; someone said it is euthanasia. The bill puts the existing Wool Board to death, and puts something else in its place; one might say it is a renewal as well. New Zealand First will put various amendments on Part 2 and Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to, and Part 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224480cfa6dc46435691c78cf710d13a94\u0022\u003EPart 2  Conversion of Board\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b393f28e739e4fa799b3cdc81018e538\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b393f28e739e4fa799b3cdc81018e538\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Clauses 5 to 17, in Part 2, set up the new companies that I was referring to before. There is movement of the same people from the old Wool Board structure into the new one, Wool Equities. From Wool Equities flow all these companies that one could suspect people apart from growers\u2014and I am being very careful with my words here\u2014might benefit from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262fcd1bbc4f2469b8dc583b4b03f59a2\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re privileged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c73cadd23d142a793f30435eb568be6\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Green member tells me I have privilege, but I assure the Committee that I do not intend to get into anything controversial. We suggest that the members of the Committee should show caution, and should look at the amendments I am promoting, because we believe that once the money flows to Wool Equities it will be a case of \u201Cout of sight, out of mind\u201D, and the institutions that are picked up beyond the scope of this bill are put in place by there being agreement that the money go to Wool Equities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe believe that a person should be put in a position of some power, to look not only forward but back at what has happened leading to this point. In other words, were the farmers fully informed of what will happen in the future? Are the farmers happy to go forward into these companies, which everybody has said go into uncharted territory? I think the ACT member referred to them as a leap of faith. We in New Zealand First believe that leaps of faith are not something that should be promoted by this House. We do not believe that leaps of faith are something that it is in farmers\u2019 natures to take. There are enough leaps of faith with God\u2019s gift of the weather in this country without their taking commercial leaps of faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo we believe that a note of caution needs to come in here. We believe that a statutory manager needs to be put in place, to look backwards and to the future in order to give some clarity, and to unravel what every member has said is an extremely complicated set-up. I recommend that course to the Committee, and I can only ask that the other members, namely the Labour, ACT, and National members, will consider at this point changing their vote and supporting what I believe are very, very worthy amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00228a0e5a38ec5d4c48b00f1de12f7a2419\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a0e5a38ec5d4c48b00f1de12f7a2419\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party has given consideration to the amendments in the name of Doug Woolerton of New Zealand First. We will not be supporting his amendments. We have given them a lot of thought. The issues he raises are not new to us. The bill, when passed, requires the Wool Board to present a restructuring plan to the Minister of Agriculture. We entrust this matter to the Minister, and expect him to do his job. We will be watching him very closely. Even though the issues have been firmly put to us on a number of occasions, we do not believe that there is a conspiracy, as many are led to believe. We did beef up the bill to ensure that no share exchange takes place for 2 years, and that fewer directors are on the board, and there are other issues that address that. So we entrust this matter to the Minister and to the industry as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u002228835a08061d4b52ae0083e8b7980221\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228835a08061d4b52ae0083e8b7980221\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to have this opportunity to speak on this part. I refer to a comment made by my colleague Mr Doug Woolerton. He, like all the members on the Primary Production Committee, took very seriously the submissions received from a whole range of people. At this late stage, it appears there is a divergence of opinion about where we should be heading. In all honesty, at one stage in the early formation of the bill, I was opposed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5c0fea1fb1e414f85e663c74ed555b9\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: As I recall, I was reflecting on the fact that at the early stages and the preliminary hearings of the submissions I, too, along with Mr Woolerton and Mr Ian Ewen-Street, believed that we just send the receivers in and they dispose of the assets of the board as the receiver sees fit. That seemed to me to be a pretty sound concept at that time. But I have changed my mind, after listening to people like Richard Bentley, who is now the chair of Wool Equities. I listened to him, and indeed had a private meeting with him so he could better explain his thinking. I came away from that meeting thinking, yes, I could accept the proposal that the Government has come up with, because I believe in the strength of that particular individual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe board has to divest itself of its assets. Some will go to the growers; and the information technology, the technology that the board owns, has to go somewhere. It is better if it is going to an organisation that is essentially controlled by the farming community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI make the point that the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand is an incorporated society, and it has been the research vehicle for the wool industry. But it is an incorporated society, and it cannot raise capital. There is a huge demand for the technologies, and the new research and development, that the organisation had come up with\u2014for example, Karatec is just one. New and equally exciting opportunities have been developed, and there is a huge demand for capital to ensure that these developments take place. Mr Bentley assures me that with the structures now in place, we will not have to go overseas to find capital, that it can be financed in a local sense. That is something that should please us all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EUnder the new structures that Part 1 will authorise, it is important to recognise that the Wool Research Organisation now has a new business plan, and Wool Equities has rewritten the business plan for Ovita, the biotech company. That company will be looking at ways of ensuring that the protein, that is wool, can be used in perhaps the pharmaceutical industry in a whole host of biotech ways. That needs money, expertise, and, just as important, it needs a business plan to ensure that those processes take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI know there have been some real concerns about the \u201Csudden\u201D development of Canesis Network Ltd. We are confusing the two roles here. It is not the role of Parliament to get into the management of this industry. That is for the commercial arms to develop. There are very distinct roles here. One role is governance, and one role is management. If we are to get into the micro-detail of determining in the Wool Restructuring Bill that this or that should happen to parliamentarians\u2019 satisfaction, then I think we are limiting the ability of these commercial organisations that will happen, to best reflect the nature of the workplace, and indeed the demands of the commercial world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf74a39fc4f744f5bd233b39ad9bdc06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf74a39fc4f744f5bd233b39ad9bdc06\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister for Rural Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I understand the good intent of the member\u2019s amendment, the principles of which were discussed at the select committee. The proposal, which is very similar to one put forward to the committee by Mr Phil Verry, is one that was considered. The background to it was put very thoroughly to the committee. As the previous speaker has said, on balance the committee\u2014and the Government is happy to support that position\u2014decided that the proposals as laid out and put to the select committee, and the process for dissolution of the board, are sound, and have the backing of the farmers, and to intervene at this late stage with such a proposal is simply not warranted. That is why the Government will not be supporting Mr Woolerton\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of R Doug Woolerton to clauses 14 and 15 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003Eto omit these clauses and substitute the following clauses:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E14   Administration and governance of company\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\tThe Minister must appoint a statutory manager to the company, on the restructuring day, to take full control of the company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E15\tPowers and responsibilities of statutory manager\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\tThe statutory manager shall have all the powers of the directors of the company and, in addition, shall have these powers and responsibilities:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(a)\tto review the conduct and policies of the former Wool Board, since 1996, to determine whether or not the actions taken by the Board, and/or entities controlled by the Board, including Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand (WRONZ), conform to the provisions, intent and spirit of the Wool Board Act 1997;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(b)\tto take such action as is necessary to remedy any actions or omissions that do not conform to the provisions, intent and spirit of the Wool Board Act 1997;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(c)\tto forthwith resolve all outstanding issues affecting the Board, including claims against it, on a fair and equitable basis, respectively, preferably by mediated negotiation, but failing that by court processes pursued expeditiously;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(d)\tto review whether or not the past and intended treatment of and/or disposal of assets of the Board and/or WRONZ, including intellectual property assets, has given proper consideration to: prior rightful proprietary interests in those assets; the best utilisation of those assets on behalf of their rightful owners; and such rightful owners\u2019 entitlement to fair recognition of and recompense for the value of such assets;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(e)\tto resolve any issues arising from these reviews, as he/she shall deem appropriate;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(f)\tto institute an appropriate procedure, as he/she shall determine, whereby wool growers: are fully informed of the options for the future structure of their industry that are practicably possible; are informed of the relative merits of each option; and are allowed to freely make an informed decision, by referendum, of the structure they prefer for their industry;\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E(g)\tto facilitate and oversee the introduction of the industry structure preferred by wool growers; and, to the extent that he/she deems appropriate, to make available the assets of the former Board to support the establishment of that new structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f4bb209ea6604cb59eebb8d625431977\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 86\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 20; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000410\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of R Doug Woolerton to clause 16 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000411\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ccf1f7fd54924f4986d9297ebd342269\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 86\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 20; ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000412\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of R Doug Woolerton to clause 17 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000413\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause and substitute the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000414\u0022\u003E17\tNo compensation for loss of office\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000415\u0022\u003E\tNo director of the Board is entitled to compensation for loss of office, either from the Board,  any subsidiary of the Board, or any other company or entity.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229f2e17afa42041c38c3c02a79447934f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 20\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; Green Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 86\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 20; ACT New Zealand 6 United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to, and Part 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f992ca0b71124413aa8857a9e1df68dc\u0022\u003EPart 3  Restructuring of wool industry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002299302b4223bb4f9bad33fc65f2a4456b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299302b4223bb4f9bad33fc65f2a4456b\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (Junior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. In view of the previous vote, New Zealand First will withdraw its proposed amendments to clauses 18 through to 29.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00227020346ba46c4f089125735c413a44bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227020346ba46c4f089125735c413a44bd\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak briefly on Part 3. Clause 18 requires that the board must prepare a restructuring plan, which is right and proper. But, again, I think the concern of the farming industry has been the question of who should prepare this restructuring plan, rather than whether a plan should be invoked. I have heard comments that many members of the existing board will reinvent themselves in terms of these new structures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E To my certain knowledge the only person who has resurfaced is Mr Mark O\u2019Grady, who will be the chief executive, under contract to Wool Equities. This is a fixed-term contract for a period of 2 years. It was essential, according to Wool Equities, that it have somebody with an in-depth knowledge of the industry to assist the new directors in their deliberations as to how they believe the governance of Wool Equities should take place. They needed somebody who had hands-on management experience. It is perhaps a very debatable question as to whether Mr O\u2019Grady was responsible, in whole or in part, for the fortunes or misfortunes of the board in the past, but in the judgment of the new board of Wool Equities, he was deemed to be the best person suitable to assist the new board to come to grips with the complexities of the wool industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI do not see the names of previous board members, other board members, or even current board members, resurfacing. So I think the one fear, perhaps justified, that my colleagues have has perhaps been a little overstated, when we look at Part 3. As I said earlier, I think it is very important that the employment of individuals within this new structure, generally speaking these days, is under fixed-period contracts. If the growers decide they do not want a specific individual as their chief executive, they can relay that to the board\u2014indeed, they can sack members of the board for having appointed this particular fellow, and that is as it should be. But the governance of the board should be left to the people who now govern it. It is appropriate that they should have the right to make their appointment, rather than the wider industry having a vote on it. It is just not practical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns I have in the farming world is that many farmers do not understand that it is not their job to have a hands-on, day-to-day influence over the running of a company, whether it be Fonterra or whatever. We place that in the hands of the individual, the chief executive, and it is his or her job to perform in the role, and to be accountable as well, but essentially if the chief executive does not perform, then hopefully his or her contract will not be renewed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EHowever, I do understand the concern of my colleague Mr Woolerton. It was a concern that I also held in a very genuine way. But, after quiet reflection, I have determined that it is appropriate that the new board of Wool Equities will determine whom it shall appoint, and not have myself or other politicians stick their oar in and say that it is quite wrong to appoint a certain individual. That is the board\u2019s choice, and the directors of Wool Equities will stand or fall on the correctness of that choice. That is one contribution I would like to make to this part, and I look forward to my colleagues\u2019 contributions to Part 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee271f9359f04be0812d8b04f1f85a70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee271f9359f04be0812d8b04f1f85a70\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I rise today as the National Party spokesperson on this bill to support the Government\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, which corrects the misrepresentation on the calculation formula. As a responsible National Party we certainly support the Supplementary Order Paper amendments, and we will be voting that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u002246597aabe4ec4609b778414330325634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246597aabe4ec4609b778414330325634\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to correct a couple of things that may have inadvertently crept in. The first is the suggestion, and I know that Mr Eckhoff did not mean this personally, that we would even want to involve ourselves in the administration of the wool industry. [Interruption] I know that it was not put in quite that way. We have just lost the last chance, quite frankly, to have somebody who is independent look over the process. It was not to involve ourselves or this Parliament in the administration, and certainly not to be casting aspersions on the good names of any people who may be employed in the wool industry henceforth. We have just passed a critical time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI say to the woolgrowers of the future\u2014and I am not lecturing them, but this is an observation that I think all members of the select committee would make and agree with me on\u2014that the lack of participation in the industry by growers is lamentable. I know many of the reasons for that. It is a matter of having been ground down over the years. It is a feeling that their voices have not been heard. It is all those things. But it is very hard for a select committee and for a Government\u2014those of us who are involved in the process\u2014to get a fair understanding from such a small participation of grower members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E I would like to make a comparison, but not necessarily suggest that they follow the same route as the Fonterra board, which put up three people for re-election. The price was not as they had hoped it would be, and the returns were not as they hoped they would be, so two of the directors were fired. The farmer participation dealt to them very, very quickly. I am not so naive as to believe that it is just the farmers. There was a lot more politics. Further to that, we have had the summary dismissal of Fonterra\u2019s chief executive officer, in favour of another person. That level of participation is very, very healthy. I urge the woolgrowers of this nation to involve themselves in the new structures that are being put in place, and to watch over them very, very carefully because a lot of the things that we suggest could go wrong, and that some people may profit from individually, are beyond the scope of this bill. They are in the companies that are set up under the Wool Equities banner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EMr Eckhoff is absolutely right. We have no place meddling in those companies. We have no place directing people how to administer those companies, but we do, surely, have the ability\u2014and, I suggest, the responsibility\u2014to urge farmers to participate fully in the democratic process in those companies, and to ensure that the things we hope and pray will not happen do not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00220cf3b62d89004b7a98f46e8a9bb7a7cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220cf3b62d89004b7a98f46e8a9bb7a7cf\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to comment on clause 19A, \u201CConstitutions\u201D, and specifically on the constitution of Wool Equities. I bring this to the Committee\u2019s attention, because some concern has been expressed at the possibility that growers will lose control of the industry within a couple of years. The bill states that a shareholder must not sell shares in Wool Equities to a person other than another grower; a person who is not a grower must not buy shares or become a shareholder in Wool Equities; a shareholder and an associated person must not acquire, hold, or control voting rights for, directly or indirectly, in concert or otherwise, more than 5 percent of the total number of shares in Wool Equities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI think this is a very sensible part of the constitution of Wool Equities that does give what one might call a stand-down period\u2014a shake-down period\u2014that allows farmers a couple of years to see how things are progressing and how things are moving. If they are moving in the direction the farmers think they should be moving, then they can vote accordingly after the 2-year period. I am well aware that the bogeyman\u2014if one could call it that\u2014of corporate raiders taking control of farmers\u2019 assets rears its head from time to time, and the example has been used of the Guinness Peat Groupbuying into ENZA and taking control of that company.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E I must say that I thought: \u201CWell, gosh, is this a good thing?\u201D. The reality is that if we ask the growers, who are shareholders and sellers of their product, they say that it has been a good thing. I make the point that, as I have said before, what these companies need dramatically is capital to develop. It is like having a farm but no money to put fertiliser on, fence, or build water supplies. The companies must have access to capital to be able to develop. Whether a company like the Guinness Peat Group is coming in for some benign purpose, some productive purpose, or otherwise, really does not matter, because farmers are not compelled to be members of Wool Equities if they do not wish to be. They can sell their shares, get out of the industry, and perhaps invest in some other aspect, if they so choose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI do not think it is appropriate for myself as a woolgrower to tell other growers that I believe they should leave their money in, or take it out. That is entirely for them to decide. But the constitution, under this clause 19A, allows for this very important stand-down period\u2014for want of a better expression\u2014in which farmers will see the trend starting to develop, whether or not it is appropriate, and react accordingly. I do not see the injection of outside capital, and the potential\u2014and I emphasise that word\u2014for outside control to be something that farmers should be overly concerned about, because if that industry becomes terribly successful, they, as shareholders in Wool Equities, will benefit from that as well. Indeed, the demand for their product on the auction-room floor, or by private sale, will also be reflected in the price they receive for their product. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003ESo I do not think that we should be overly concerned about the prospect of non-woolgrowers, or those who are not currently industry players, taking some sort of a controlling, or a 20 or 30 percent, stake and injecting much-needed capital into this industry. It is something that probably will be needed. But I also make the point that this is the very reason that Canesis has developed to ensure that the capital it needs comes pretty much from New Zealand sources, rather than having outside capital come in to develop these quite exciting products that the Wool Research Organisation of New Zealand has developed on behalf of the woolgrowers of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 101 in the name of the Hon Jim Sutton to clauses 20B(2) and 20C(2) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bbfef35a8c4e498cba908664413ff7d4\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022e96c9f49df444a01ae27f34c6f2b6bc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e96c9f49df444a01ae27f34c6f2b6bc7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill be now read a third time. The bill was introduced into the House on 11 December 2002. It had its first reading on 19 March 2003 and was referred to the Primary Production Committee on that day, with the instruction that it present its final report on, or before, 16 June. The select committee reported the bill back to the House on 16 June, as first indicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill restructures the New Zealand Wool Board into a company, New Zealand Wool Board Disestablishment Company Ltd, to wind up the affairs of the board, and to distribute its assets among woolgrowers. The board was originally established in 1945 to undertake wool research and development, technology transfer, education and training, wool promotion, and other issues. Since that time the board has operated under various legislation and with an assortment of functions, including operating a minimum prices scheme for wool from the late 1970s to the 1990s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E Today the board is engaged in industry-good activities and, through its subsidiary, Wool Equities Ltd, and its associate company, Meat and Wool Innovation Ltd, it is engaged in commercial wool activities. When the board was established, the industry was predominantly focused on the UK, which took the vast bulk of New Zealand\u2019s wool. Today the main market for this country\u2019s wool is China, which takes about 23 percent of our exports. The UK now takes 15 percent of New Zealand\u2019s wool exports. Greater attention is now being given to innovation, and to adding value to our produce prior to export. We have seen developments in the wool industry, for example, with respect to keratin proteins in wool fibres, and now the time has come for its commercialisation through the new company, Keratec New Zealand Ltd, with its grower ownership stake through Wool Equities. The bill will enable growers to participate in the potential financial benefits from this commercialisation over the coming years, by being allocated shares in Wool Equities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill not only facilitates regulatory and structural reform in the wool industry, it also enables separation of industry-good and commercial activities. This means that the industry can be more responsive to changes in the commercial environment facing its business, and to business opportunities. It should also mean that those businesses become more profit-focused. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe industry still faces challenges ahead. They are exciting challenges if growers get behind them. However, there can of course be no guarantees. The bill provides for the allocation of the Wool Board\u2019s assets to growers, split between the grower companies, Wool Equities, and Merino Grower Investments. It is going to be over to the directors, management, and grower-shareholders of those companies to ensure that the decisions in future are such as to realise the potential returns that exist on growers\u2019 investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe process of wool reform has not been a quick one. It was the Wool Board\u2019s annual general meeting in 1999 that decided to hire McKinsey and Co. to undertake an independent review of the wool industry that has led ultimately to this bill. Some say that this process has taken too long, while others want to drag it out further. The Government is convinced that the majority of growers support the bill, and that is evidenced by the number of submissions the select committee received: a total of 33. Among those, Federated Farmers Meat and Fibre Producers supported the bill. I wish the Wool Board Disestablishment Co. well in winding up the affairs of the board, and allocating the board\u2019s assets to growers. I also wish Wool Equities, Merino Grower Investments, and their subsidiary and associate companies all the best for the future. I would also, at this point, like to thank the officials for their very difficult work. I would particularly like to congratulate Ken Armstrong from the ministry, who has been a key part of this oversight process. He will be pleased to see this bill pass through the House and place responsibility in the hands of woolgrowers, instead, perhaps, of having it on his broad shoulders\u2014as has happened from time to time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMost of all I wish New Zealand woolgrowers well. Growers have waited patiently for Parliament to enact this bill. Non-merino growers will need to decide whether to convert their preference shares to ordinary shares in Wool Equities as a future investment, or to cash them in. Merino growers will get their preference shares in cash, in any case. In August, all growers will have an important vote to participate in, under the Commodity Levies Act, to determine whether they have a levy on wool, post 30 June 2004, that will be used to fund industry-good activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe future of the industry is in growers\u2019 hands. As individuals, they have very little chance of having their wool compete with non-renewable, manmade fibres in the international marketplace. However, collectively, as an industry united in its objectives and vision, they can maintain their place in New Zealand agriculture through innovation and growth, and develop new, innovative, international-market opportunities. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f881814ad70b43d3b5fd4cf71c89cbb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f881814ad70b43d3b5fd4cf71c89cbb3\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of my National Party colleagues, particularly Shane Ardern and the Hon David Carter, and my former colleague the Hon John Luxton, I commend this bill to the House. We will be supporting it. Obviously we have voted for it through all its stages, and will be doing so now. It is enabling legislation. This bill, when passed very shortly, will require the Wool Board to present a restructuring plan to the Minister of Agriculture. The restructuring plan will have to be sound. I trust the ministry and the Minister to give it fair scrutiny and to address issues and concerns raised by other members of the House who are less confident about the future under the current proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EFledgling companies such as Canesis, those on the horizon, and some developed ones such as Ovita and Covita, have opportunities in research and development and the promotion of new products, as does the industry as a whole. If some of those companies come to pass, I wish them well, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI do commend this to the House. Many issues were raised and spoken about by members. The debate still has to be had, and the Minister still has to address those issues. We believe that as a select committee we have been diligent. We have beefed up the requirements to report to the Minister. Those requirements need to be met, and we trust the industry to do that. As I say, we will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022aec2aaa1a8cb45d7aa9826f67a9bd2a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aec2aaa1a8cb45d7aa9826f67a9bd2a7\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to express our support for this third reading of the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill and to make just a few brief comments. It has been heartening to see the cross-party support throughout this phase. Although we have not had a person on the select committee, I know that the committee members worked very hard and I commend them today for the way they have addressed the particularly complex issues within this bill. Nothing is ever perfect, but I believe that the House has done the best job possible today to deliver the best legislation we can to protect the interests of woolgrowers and move them forward into the 21st century. I thank the officials for their hard work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAs I said in my second reading speech, I look forward to further clarification in the transition phase for Wool Equities so that the growers will have an opportunity to express their commitment to the new board members at some stage in the future, preferably at the next annual general meeting. I believe they should exercise that option and responsibility. It is now, however, in the hands of the Minister, as this bill is passed, to ensure that that takes place. United Future is happy to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00222a888716295d444b81a627a3de2e2916\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a888716295d444b81a627a3de2e2916\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am, naturally, sorry that the amendment that was put up in my name was lost. I think we have lost an important opportunity to pause for another look, and to have a further investigation of the common sense of the things that lie beyond this bill. However, New Zealand First will support the bill. I make no apology for believing that industries should be controlled and owned by the participants within them. I know that sometimes these days that is becoming an outmoded concept, but it has served this country well. I believe that in the guise of Fonterra it will continue to serve the dairy industry well, and I believe that it could have served the wool industry well also, but that is not to be. The wool industry is heading out into a brave new world, and I wish the industry all the best on that journey.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E I want to particularly mention the emerging participation of M\u0101ori corporations in the farming world. At long last, M\u0101ori are banding together under a corporate identity to participate. They felt that by their numbers they were outvoted and not listened to in the structures that have just passed into history, shall we say. I know they will welcome the new world. I believe they could have been incorporated into a more cooperative world than the one that is going to be faced by the wool industry, but that is not to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI am sure that woolgrowers and sheep farmers right across the country will view the passing of this bill with immense relief, whatever side of the argument they came down on. I am sure they will pick up the challenge that I laid out to them earlier and participate with renewed vigour, to ensure that the democratic processes we have been at such pains to ensure remain in the bill are picked up and carried forth, so that farmers have delivered to them that which they aspire to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe commodity levy that comes in will be an interesting test for farmer participation. There are some views around that farmers will reject it out of hand, but knowing farmers as I do\u2014and I am sure as you have come to do over the years in this House, Mr Speaker\u2014I am sure that common sense will prevail and they will engage with their industry, and go on to the better things that this allows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo it is with some regret that I end this speech by saying that I would have liked to see a halfway house established so that another independent person could have looked at this industry. That was not to be, but we will not be dogs in the manger. We will vote for the bill and wish the industry, which is so valuable to New Zealand, all the best for the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022145675b15ecb42a599b59605277e257b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022145675b15ecb42a599b59605277e257b\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have this final opportunity to speak on this bill in the third reading debate. I cannot stand here with my hand on my heart and say that I know exactly where the future of the wool industry is. I cannot say with absolute certainty that Mr Woolerton is absolutely wrong, and that I am absolutely right. I am not sure about that; I am not totally sure. But on the balance of probability, I believe it is appropriate that this bill go forward with the support of this House, and that we allow the industry to develop as it should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI would like to make a few points to the House. The reality is, surely, that if there had been no Wool Board created whenever it was\u201450 years ago\u2014we would not be standing here today to debate its demise and what should take its place. I think of the opportunity cost that we perhaps face today because we have had a structure that supposedly threw a security blanket over woolgrowers and told them they did not need to worry, because the Wool Board was there to look after them\u2014and, of course, the wool industry went down, down, and down. That security blanket has now been totally removed\u2014or in very large part removed\u2014from the growers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI can only reflect, too, on the traumatic events\u2014as they were back in the 1980s\u2014when subsidies were removed from the farming industry. I lamented deeply the loss of my subsidies because I was the backbone of the country, along with my farming colleagues, and I asked how this Parliament dared to remove my subsidies. I was receiving about $8 or $9 for a lamb, and I was going broke. The meat industry recognised that if farmers went broke, it would go broke. We saw the need for a commercial focus and the requirement, the absolute requirement of the industry\u2014the farmers, the meat processors, and the whole lot of us\u2014to recognise that if we wanted to have a future in this country, we had to get out there and do it out in the marketplace, and that is what happened. In recent years in the meat industry, farmers have been receiving a cheque for a single lamb of anywhere between $70 and $120. Within that 20-year time frame we have gone from receiving $8 per lamb to receiving $70, $80, or $100, and in some cases $120. How many other industries with a primary production focus can actually state that they have gone in from that very low level back in the mid-1980s to the high peak of around $120 by trading in what are, essentially, commodities? Certainly, the meat industry has much to be proud of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI wonder, in these quiet moments, whether the same thing will not apply to the wool industry\u2014whether, in 30 years\u2019 time, the industry will go back to this very day and ponder what happened. Will farmers say: \u201CThank goodness that bill was passed. Those guys\u2014and women too, of course\u2014were not sure whether they were 100 percent right, but my goodness me, they gave us the opportunity.\u201D? Today we are trying to give the wool industry\u2014not just the growers but the whole wider industry\u2014the opportunity to move forward. Yes, as Mr Woolerton has pointed out, it is a huge article of faith for us to stand here today and pass this bill, but surely that is part of our job. We have to make a judgment call from time to time, and we stand or fall on the results of our decision making. Woolgrowers may be so angry with me that I am never heard of again, and that, of course, is their choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022972f27d3fb6d46c48925e7913cc66dda\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re trying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233598c1f8d624a90be64600f8c9d98be\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Some of my colleagues may help me along the way, too, but that is fine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWithout question, this restructuring is a huge article of faith. As a farmer of some 30 years\u2019 standing, I realise that I live in hope. That is what I do as a farmer. On this very day, when huge storm warnings have been issued for my neck of the woods, I live in hope that nature will pass me by on this occasion and the storm will move out to sea. We live in hope of better days. That is what this bill does for the farming industry. It provides an opportunity. Could the restructuring have been done better? Undoubtedly it could have been, but there are times when we just have to say that we have done the best that we could do with the knowledge currently available to us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe have had many, many submissions from very capable people indeed, including, even, the Inland Revenue Department. My colleague Rodney Hide would be apoplectic if he knew we were taking advice from that department. We invoked the department\u2019s help to assist us with our deliberations because there are tax losses of $270 million, and that huge sum of money has to be utilised to the benefit of the wool industry. That is what the farming community is attempting to do with the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe have also introduced a much greater commercial focus. Some hard-nosed business people are set to represent us and to assist the wool industry to move forward. My faith is not so much in the system or the structure that we have placed in the bill, but in the people who will, I hope, overcome the problems that we face with regard to low commodity prices. Who knows? Maybe, instead of receiving $3 or $4 for a kilogram of cross-bred wool, we may be looking at receiving $10. In 10 or 15 years\u2019 time, we could well see pharmaceutical companies clamouring to buy our wool product because it contains a special enzyme that enables burn specialists to solve skin-grafting problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI do not know where the future of the wool industry lies. I do not know what the biotech companies will come up with, but I do know that the future is exciting if we allow it to be so, and allow\u2014without getting into any political ideologies\u2014the market, investment, and, most important, research and development to take place in that industry. The focus of research and development has been lost for so many years under the auspices of the Wool Board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWhen something is taken away, as the Wool Board has been, a vacuum is created. But while I certainly do not profess to be a physicist, I know that a vacuum is always filled. Nature does not allow a vacuum to remain; it is always filled. As I said earlier, I cannot say with absolute certainty whether that vacuum should have been filled with the Wool Corporation, or whether it should be filled with the existing structures that we are promoting in this bill by means of Wool Equities. But I think the committee has worked very well together to achieve the very best possible outcome for the industry. Yes, there are areas of disagreement, but I do not think they are so huge that the industry will not overcome them. My time on the Primary Production Committee has been a rewarding one, and I thank my colleagues on the committee for what I think is a good job, and a job that has been well done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u00224205b6ecc93f465e9cb451d45efc4e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224205b6ecc93f465e9cb451d45efc4e79\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start my final speech on this bill by thanking the officials who have helped the Primary Production Committee. I am aware that at times I was the bane of their lives, and I just want to thank them for their patience with, and tolerance of, me. They did fail to convince me, even in the end, that we were doing the right thing, but they did do their best. I would also like to join my colleague Gerrard Eckhoff in acknowledging the collegiality of the Primary Production Committee. I do think we all put our heads around this bill in a very non-partisan way in order to come up with the best possible solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI have always expressed my doubts about this bill. As time went by in the select committee my opposition to it grew, and I have not changed my mind. I think the growers really need to be very aware of what is going on. As I said in my second reading speech, I sincerely hope that I am wrong, but I have very grave fears about what will happen. I would urge woolgrowers to look at the ownership of Keratec. The figures and flow charts appear to show that Keratec ultimately remains in the ownership of farmers. However, if one looks through the way that governance is covered, one sees that there are votes that will outweigh the ownership percentages. I just think that the potential for farmers to lose control of Keratec, which is the jewel in the crown of the intellectual property of the wool industry, is very real. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI would also urge farmers to look at the mandate that the industry claims it has for this restructuring. I detailed that matter in my second-reading speech, so I will not go through it again. But if farmers believe that there was any premeditation in the consultation, then there is precedent in the law to say that that consultation was not actually consultation and can be legally challenged, with the result that the restructuring would go back to square one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI do wish the industry well. My opposition to this bill should not in any way be interpreted as being opposition to the disestablishment of the Wool Board, which I think is an essential thing. I am just not convinced that the structure that has been put in place is the right solution, and I am particularly concerned about the very late arrival of Canesis and Canesis Venture Capital on to the scene. I wish the industry well, but unfortunately I really cannot see my way clear to supporting the bill on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220d9f15c771e84d898cea4a77b8a0e13d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Wool Industry Restructuring Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 99\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 20; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 6; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030701c5abd7f452d94b0eba30e94f504f2cf0000472\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 2.49 p.m. (Friday)\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"