"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022836faee1955a4f05919960b1d6539f44\u0022\u003EThursday, 24 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe9f0bd36ff149279676bed33779470e\u0022\u003EThursday, 24 July 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2b21e106f1340d8a7a8d7eabdbcdc0e\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cb8d88d730834a028a4e01294d8fc3be\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022452fcd92844b4665b331cdf8d413c743\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022452fcd92844b4665b331cdf8d413c743\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House the main items of business will be the remaining stages of the State Sector Amendment Bill; the first readings of the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill, the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill, the Railways Bill, and the Civil Aviation Amendment Bill; and the second reading of the Crown Minerals Amendment Bill. Wednesday is a members\u2019 day. Moana Mackey will be sworn in on Tuesday, and it is expected that her maiden speech will be on Wednesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e819191cd473469d99f47295d32c9df8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e819191cd473469d99f47295d32c9df8\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Even if the National Party does not want to ask some questions about next week\u2019s business, I would like to do so. I would like to have an assurance from the Leader of the House that we will not have a bill presented to the House, with regard to Mr Duynhoven, before the Privileges Committee has considered the matter and reported back to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002234888b185d7447efb3f98bd7f9525b62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002234888b185d7447efb3f98bd7f9525b62\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Certainly I have no intention of introducing legislation before the Privileges Committee has considered the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9afab2702cc4bae9cec6755b1d60137\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e49ff73bea1345578deeb3e4f91ff2d3\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a30c0676a54c558c51c347407df5cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a30c0676a54c558c51c347407df5cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Privileges Committee to meet during the evenings of 29 and 30 July, to consider the question of privilege relating to the Hon Harry Duynhoven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c709b50e2cb4d9693cab73d7583225f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226b81cc1b3aa747939733c65be55545d3\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224a10502021f943709f131adefa53bfdf\u0022\u003EPrivilege\u2014Hon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00226f4cbd1b792149b08d4e20d0b46365af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f4cbd1b792149b08d4e20d0b46365af\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I now wish to raise a point of order with you. While you have referred to the Privileges Committee the matter of Mr Duynhoven\u2019s eligibility to sit in the House, after reading through the Electoral Act\u2014and I would like you to confirm this\u2014I believe that this is actually a decision for you. You can seek advice from wherever you are, but I want from you an assurance that your referring to the Privileges Committee was not a technique to enable the Government to change the law in the meantime, and that, as Speaker, you will look at the matter and make the decision on the law as it is at the moment, rather than what the law might be after the Government has persuaded us to change it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c52d70d06b6f4c16b8a4f32b90a4298b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will give the member an absolute assurance as to that. I agree. I took advice on what to do, was advised, and referred the matter to the Privileges Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fee83a5c11b740f59327869290966567\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fee83a5c11b740f59327869290966567\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am obliged to you for that remark, and I accept it, but can you also confirm that this is a decision for you to make, not for anyone else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92fd04ae0b14ced9ece951a485a4944\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It depends on the procedures. The Government, of course, can introduce bills if it wishes, but if it does not, then the member is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00223cb9fe54004245f8b9b5053df5c78d15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223cb9fe54004245f8b9b5053df5c78d15\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given what you have just said, I guess we would now seek an assurance from yourself that the issue will be decided strictly in accordance with the law as it stands\u2014not in respect of any bills to be introduced. We have just heard from the Leader of the House that there will be no bills introduced, so I would like you to give us that assurance, because I feel you have left us in some doubt now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee0ac263fee4f298c240f292900d8b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not actually hear the Hon Dr Cullen say that, but I can give members the assurance that I will enforce, under section 129 of the Electoral Act, that it is for the Speaker to decide, when satisfied a vacancy exists, the present law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002207f505ff979a4d479bd088c4fd0e0ac7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207f505ff979a4d479bd088c4fd0e0ac7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to get things a bit clearer, because it seems that, in answers to both Mr Prebble\u2019s and Dr Mapp\u2019s points of order, there has come from you a suggestion that you may not be put in a position of having to make that determination, because of some expectation that the Government might be about to change the law. Surely, the situation with regard to Mr Duynhoven exists now, so the question arises: why the long wait?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e4a3e1f9c0b400894b3d46659c3da09\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I decide on the present law\u2014nothing else. I decide on the present law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8dc98101aad49c7bfe480f9ff92526f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8dc98101aad49c7bfe480f9ff92526f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is my party\u2019s concern as to what your answer was, in respect of Mr Mapp\u2019s question, because, if that is your answer, then by a very unfortunate circumstance, and without recourse for us to have the ability to correct that circumstance, I am bound to say that you are bound to come to a certain decision\u2014which would be very, very adverse for Mr Duynhoven, and which I do not believe\u2014I cannot speak for other members\u2014is fair or right. So in reality, one of the options you must surely keep open for yourself is the capacity of this House to correct the situation by way of retrospective legislation. In which event, sadly, your answer to Mr Mapp cannot stand. All I am asking is, are you prepared to avail yourself of the opportunity to take the decision of the Privileges Committee and Parliament on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9ba3be462544469abbd44a4aad31f35\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, I am going to wait until the Privileges Committee reports. I will then consider its report, and consider what has to be done. The Speaker will then make a decision in the light of the Privileges Committee report and on the basis of the law as it exists at the time. I can assure the member that I will follow the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002258038c77be344515b5707097d10aaa53\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258038c77be344515b5707097d10aaa53\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is what my concern is. If you follow the law, then, sadly, the result will be inevitable. I want you to tell the House that you are prepared to take advice or direction from other members of Parliament, so that you can act on a law that we might have to pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc6245745f9b47c39917e4f38fc8da1e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I take direction from the House only when it changes the law. I will uphold the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cbf2ca947b39422bbf98bcdb4eb60ec2\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022920865a5be62471fa4de071e6ab067fb\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee13588e0ad242e6967ff7fc626587a0\u0022\u003EMethamphetamine\u2014Laboratories\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217020ab2889349cc94bf658a9f84c6c7\u0022\u003E1. Dr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: By what percentage did the number of methamphetamine laboratories found by police in the year 2002 exceed the number found in the year 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee9c2640d6143c388064d1e0ec5697f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee9c2640d6143c388064d1e0ec5697f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E Police have done a superb job in increasing the number of seizures of methamphetamine laboratories to 147 in the year 2002 from five seizures in 1999, which is an increase of 2,840 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022153a0941b2cb423c93924de2233b5d3f\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: With the Minister\u2019s own figures suggesting a methamphetamine epidemic under his watch, with the Commissioner of Police linking the 30 percent jump in murders to methamphetamine, and with 50 methamphetamine crimes committed this month alone, why do we have to wait until next year to re-establish the dedicated police teams to deal with this problem, when the Minister organised the police deployment to the Solomons in a week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c2fa4016b3b4acd810e27b8dc07aade\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: There are already teams of police dealing with methamphetamine, hence the very good percentage of detection of more laboratories. We use crime squads and drug squads, and the police are doing a very good job with the help of the public. Methamphetamine is a curse on this land, and it takes the public to combat that. Of course, it takes some time to train scientists to be able to deal with the evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb41a10af591441da54b35893bc5f424\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister outline what specific action the Government has taken to combat the use of methamphetamine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223541d6a74d274143aabfc5964fb92d7a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has reclassified methamphetamine as a class A drug, meaning imprisonment for importing, manufacturing, and supplying methamphetamine. It has allocated $6.6 million over 4 years in this year\u2019s Budget for the clandestine laboratory clean-up teams, and increased the number of such teams. It has given police greater search and seizure powers without warrant, where there is reasonable suspicion that the drug is present, and enabled police to work with the Customs Service to stop its import. The Government has also given the Customs Service more powers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cffe3ee41974d33ab63910ecbafb0e1\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Government amend the Proceeds of Crime Act so that drug-dealing gangs will have to prove that their assets were gained legally, or face confiscation of those assets?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9aa03477e174ef5b72c998c50c39386\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is currently working on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d74a4266475849d78b894d208d7791f2\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister remember the police request for an extra three\u2014not two\u2014full-time clandestine laboratory response units, as opposed to the two that this Government gave the police, and on what basis, given the 2,450 percent increase in laboratories discovered over the last 3 years, does he and his Government believe they know better than the police, and that this country needs only two such teams, as opposed to the three that the police asked for? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e04a0569329f4443882c3f7873b5413f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government looked at the evidence, and, as with all Government departments, they always ask for more than they think they will get. They received two, and I think they have done very, very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc79addfd3e9471bb055a6ec40efe0d3\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to the control of methamphetamines\u2014something everyone in this House is concerned about\u2014is the Minister aware of the very clear evidence from the Netherlands that its policy of separating the market for hard drugs from the market for cannabis, by way of sensible cannabis law reform, has led to it having one of the lowest rates of hard drug addiction in the Western World and a rate far lower than that in the United States of America?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1ea19df27914b34bf7bfbb90c2d43da\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The New Zealand Police liaison officer in London has established a formal relationship with the Dutch synthetic drugs unit, so they are working closely, as they are with other police throughout the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220090a20a16cd494a98643ec89030e3d8\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that the House has already heard from the Minister that the two clean-up teams will be established in January next year, can the Minister confirm that the people who are currently doing that work today are members of the special tactics group, and how does his recent decision to send a special tactics group off to the Solomons now, impact on the overall ability of the police to deal with methamphetamine laboratory clean-ups?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb079e9bbd94893afa5a7bd17b8353e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm that to the member. I believe that most of the people going to the Solomon Islands will not be front-line police, but they will be replaced. I can tell the House that the next intake of police at the college will have 100 members, rather than the 80 planned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f03a56424b054daba42ae746214e5d37\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: How can anyone have confidence in a police Minister who has allowed a $400 million gang-controlled methamphetamine industry to develop under his nose, with dealers now using children as young as 11 to sell the drug to feed their addictions, when police have been telling him all along that they have not the resources to be able to deal with this problem?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228711005463f946c49b745bc5ce909e45\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard an interjection. That is the only warning. No interjections while questions are being asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896b088e1e8744b582b29d7718f53460\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think anyone thinks the Minister of Police is responsible for the growth of methamphetamine. Just as the gangs have always dealt with cannabis, etc.\u2014it has been an ongoing problem\u2014it is organised crime, but the police are cracking down on it and doing a good job. It is a pity that that member does not recognise the good job the police are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec823da9cbcc44ea8385f13b05da7b86\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the Minister\u2014organised crime! Can the Minister then please tell the House why, when the police were asking, in their Budget proposals for this year, for an extra 34 full-time officers to develop a unit dedicated to addressing counter-terrorism and organised crime\u2014a unit that would boost the police\u2019s investigative and intelligence capability, in order to deal with organised crime\u2014his Government said \u201CNo\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272f380a6c0c54b0a9b7c6591996b4a91\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The police have run a surplus over the last 12 months. It is very simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5787bc7cbe14dbda8f9ff8da5b54037\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to reflect on the answer that the Minister gave. It did not address the question. The question was very clear about why the Government did not fund it, and the Minister gave an answer that in no way could be interpreted as addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228bb9e69c4574fb8b924230799b7f62b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On this occasion I agree with the member. Will the Minister please expand on the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e39de3f7890343bd8de54f81eacfd035\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Because the Government had a surplus of money, it could put money into that itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f16136452d14451812fbc732b91bd43\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps the Minister might like to repeat his answer. What he actually told the House was that because the Government has a surplus of money it could put some money in. We agree with that. However, the question he was asked was why the Government did not put in any money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266ddf3f62dad4234ad4d81aa20d8211f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought what the Minister might have meant was: because the police had a surplus, but I am not here to judge the quality of the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5510a311b2a451fa08765ab14295861\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The Government put the money in and the police ended up not spending all the money that they were given by a very good Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a132c49074a1432ca5653eaff1d93cca\u0022\u003ECrime\u2014Auckland\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e248166990e4a0bae72506eac4f4b08\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Police: Is he firmly of the view that police resources in the Auckland district are sufficient to handle all facets of crime?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a07e11c406724b01ac8182fd0ffe4aed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a07e11c406724b01ac8182fd0ffe4aed\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E No, because predicting where and when crime will occur, and the allocation of police resources to deal with it, is not an exact science and is always a matter of debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5276dc5ebe14fd68930c2e3bfcb2bb4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Why was there no ability of Auckland police to respond to a request for assistance from a member of the public who followed a stolen vehicle containing offenders who, due to the lack of a police response, were able to go on to rob a petrol station and assault the attendant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214eb487821834d309ee5c1655810d19c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Sometimes the police make mistakes. They are human, and with over 1 million calls a year they do get it wrong sometimes. However, I am very proud of the New Zealand police because most times they get it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022987e76fa5b174ecabcfd9ec53457f7be\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any articles on Auckland crime recently?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ebdd7c36bfe42e7bdbdd9cac8b88570\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. I have a copy of an article from the New Zealand Herald of 25 June headlined: \u201CAuckland police undermanned and overworked\u201D. It is taken from an article written 100 years ago. There has probably never been a time when the media have reported it any differently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c37b05f10a4031af9b5e0c72eb7963\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister justify his statement that police in Auckland are well staffed, in the light of the fact that last year fewer than one in 15 burglaries in Auckland was solved\u2014the lowest rate of resolution on record, predating his often quoted article from the New Zealand Herald today?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7e06d464d14462494b48ef9fd47aa1e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: The pan-Auckland area has some 2,039 police as of today, and 28 more of them will graduate today and will join the Auckland numbers. There are now only 60,000 burglaries a year compared with 96,000 burglaries when that member was part of a Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fff97a3ea86843eab0faec2aad785776\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister justify his belief that police resources in Auckland are satisfactory, considering that when we look at east Auckland and his own electorate, and, indeed, the electorate of Pakuranga, we see that sexual offences since the year 2000 have increased 71.9 percent, drug and antisocial offences are up 41 percent, violent offences are up 11 percent in the Minister\u2019s electorate, and general crime in the east Auckland area is up 9 percent; is the Minister\u2019s view to his constituents that that is satisfactory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227300e7b2d0e44fc9eed3e2b821b0ae9\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Even one sexual crime is not satisfactory. The member must know that it is not a resource problem. Last year the police in the Auckland area under-spent their allocation of money by some $5 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ec742ea414e44ba89e084f2fde60364\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What comments can the Minister of Police make in respect of the appalling claim that during the aforementioned offence I described, police were detailed on traffic-related matters in the vicinity\u2014indeed, the offenders drove past a large number of police carrying out their duties, and not one of them was dispatched to assist the citizen calling for help?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225540c2cd7b824e11b0f7e68e73a3657e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: As I said earlier, the police made a mistake. They are human. It does happen. And I can say that that member is not always right himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bc917e9f14474d4a9e8722ea9e54fc92\u0022\u003EFood Standards\u2014Genetic Engineering\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250c55d172efb402685e7bdce9e8de201\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Food Safety: What steps is she taking to ensure New Zealand and Australia are \u201Caligned with the European Union on standards for genetically engineered food\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022410e802e5d7b4c728172250d45e3f972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022410e802e5d7b4c728172250d45e3f972\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister for Food Safety):\u003C/span\u003E When the Australia New Zealand Food Authority, as it was known then, put in place a food-labelling standard for genetically modified (GM) food in the year 2000, it was one of the first of its kind in the world and as comprehensive as possible at that time. A review of the labelling standard was included in the 2000 decision, and that review is now under consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a14b09aa4ad43648720e629a5b52426\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the European Union has adopted a much more stringent genetic engineering (GE) labelling regime that will require the labelling of all genetically engineered ingredients, irrespective of whether there is DNA or protein of GM origin in the final product, will she commit to aligning New Zealand with these laws, particularly as she justified our existing weak labelling laws by saying that it was essential that Australia and New Zealand were aligned with the European Union on labelling standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b239463aa4ef459d865acbcec19a997f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I feel that the member did not listen to my answer. I said that when we brought in our labelling regime in the year 2000 it was the most comprehensive of its kind in the world. At that time, we put in place a review mechanism so that in the year 2003 it would be reviewed by Food Standards Australia New Zealand. As I said in my first answer, that review is now under way and is to look at international comparisons to see what changes, if any, need to be made to our food-labelling regime for GM food.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022233d7508087446a585b828720141e6fa\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: What are the differences between the Australian and New Zealand standard and the newly proposed European standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224caf175d726640908ce76d166eeeeda0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The main difference is the threshold of 0.5 percent for unapproved GM material. The European Union standard is less strict than ours, which has a nil tolerance for food derived from an unapproved GM organism. Another difference is the European Union labelling, which will be required if a food is derived from a GM crop. Labelling in New Zealand is based on the presence of GM material in the final food. In the European Union, standard labelling is required even if GM material is not detectable. We believe that this will be extremely difficult to enforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daaf1e1edd1d44899758da92d064b52d\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: In the review by Food Standards Australia New Zealand that she alluded to, will she, as Minister for Food Safety, and the Food Standards Agency, which has one of its objectives to promote accurate and meaningful labelling, be advocating for a European Union style of labelling, which requires all ingredients to be labelled, irrespective of whether they contain DNA, etc.?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220760b309a3594809b95151bb7d2672f2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I will wait to see what the review brings forth, because, as I just outlined in my answer to my colleague, some of the standards that the European Union has are less strict than New Zealand\u2019s, and I am unsure whether the member is asking me to promote a standard that is less strict in some areas but more strict in others. I think we will wait to see the outcome of that review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c26b3a41bb43c7af898aeafa6fc8de\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: As Minister for Food Safety, is she concerned that if there was a food safety issue that required the recall of all food derived from a particular GE commodity it would be virtually impossible to do that under our existing laws, which allow hundreds of GE ingredients to remain undeclared in food and do not require a strict traceability regime throughout the food chain; if not, why not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f526f149b0f543b3bba5bf76f25120eb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not concerned, because any food that has GM in it in New Zealand has to be safe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022825efed4e9f34e2c875f90f5492bf13d\u0022\u003ESecurities Trading\u2014Law Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225855b2ba5ecb44b5a30e65e46fde9369\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce: What are the key features of the decisions that have been made as a result of the review of the securities trading law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002218b6c524393a456881d0362b45242fbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218b6c524393a456881d0362b45242fbd\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E The key features are strengthening the law relating to insider trading, introducing comprehensive prohibitions on market manipulation, increasing the range and size of penalties and remedies available for breaches of securities trading law, and strengthening the law relating to investment adviser disclosure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b77464395c4b65b75582f6af9e0732\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: How does the proposed insider-trading regime strike the right balance between preventing behaviour that is damaging to the market, on the one hand, but still allowing the market to work efficiently, on the other?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c79063134a954b11979cc8a6f611a1a7\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The new regime is broad enough to catch the type of behaviour that the public believes is insider trading, by expanding the definition of \u201Cinsider\u201D beyond those who have a fiduciary duty to the company. However, a number of exemptions to the regime have been implemented to ensure that behaviour that is necessary for market efficiency is still allowed to occur. They include, among others, exemptions for research and analysis, takeovers, underwriters, Chinese walls within companies, and transactions where the counter party to the transaction knows of the inside information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afe719ae96db415cb5fa5028f46ecb54\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking of insider training and market manipulation, does the Minister intend to run training courses in the new legislation for Cabinet, given the Prime Minister\u2019s love of share tipping, and the Minister of Finance\u2019s likely breach of insider-trading rules in constructing the Toll Holdings deal; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227db75a7ba3344a10a8877627b3906167\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not believe that the member heard my answer to the first supplementary question, in which I stated that there would be an explicit exemption in the rules for research and analysis, particularly in the area of takeovers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e92da661559f47e58266b0ae0bbe5c98\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u2014Treaty Obligations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df9a694255864f5681e0730b562c9a34\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: How does he reconcile the two different versions of the You and Your Council pamphlet, one for M\u0101ori that states: \u201CThe old Local Government Act didn\u2019t include anything about Maori or the Treaty of Waitangi. The new Act has a number of references to Maori and a Treaty section explaining why there are Maori provisions in the Act.\u201D, while the other pamphlet says: \u201CLocal authorities do not have Treaty of Waitangi obligations under the Local Government Act (those responsibilities lie with the Crown)\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9b2eb1bf2594ce1ab9283fd60927506\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9b2eb1bf2594ce1ab9283fd60927506\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E This matter was brought to my attention for the first time yesterday. Although there is nothing incorrect in either brochure, I agree they could be misconstrued. Yesterday I telephoned the Secretary for Local Government, and he assured me that no more copies of the current edition of the brochure would be distributed. A second edition will contain clear and consistent messages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a26ef3f626a42bb89516c45b754ca25\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Who was the person who authorised the printing, and did this pamphlet ever come before the Minister\u2019s office prior to it being printed and distributed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed4eb3703d145eab6e9a7e59c4e8ef9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: This brochure was put out by the Department of Internal Affairs. I was aware that publicity material was being prepared on the Local Government Act, but at no time were the different presentations of the treaty in each brochure brought to my attention, until yesterday. As soon as I found out about it, I acted on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250910f9592cc45bbb0719fe38ca6b83e\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Department of Internal Affairs distribute brochures on the new Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cd3d77e1b1b4d1eacf1855759d27974\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The department administers the new Local Government Act, and part of the department\u2019s job is to explain what the Act says. The brochure was prepared to inform members of the public, including M\u0101ori, about the new Act, so that they could take full advantage of the new participatory and consultation processes that are now available.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a728d305c8b4d4cb4a05e9deae13eaf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that local bodies will now have to have regard to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, and given the aspiration that all local bodies from the top of the North Island to the bottom of the South Island will be acting in unison on this matter, could he explain what the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi are that local bodies are going to be paying regard to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277906a3cf89940f8b5817790dbc349c2\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Local Government Act makes clear that the Crown, not local government, is the treaty partner. However, it requires local authorities to have processes in place to consult M\u0101ori, and to consider ways to foster M\u0101ori capacity to participate in decision-making processes. There are no other obligations on councils or on M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228564f119f3af4f2592ba935c48deb524\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to belabour the point, but I asked him what the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi were that local bodies are going to now have regard to. [Interruption] It is in the legislation. That being the case, I would like an answer. He made no attempt to address the question, which I have asked numerous Ministers and, now, him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f8f5ae89624b48885ae5b5d8df245a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister did address the question and gave an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231058deab4cd47639efb279ee2b01e77\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister say to the assertion that these new annual council pamphlets are a further example of the duplicity created by this Government\u2019s policies whereby one message is given to M\u0101ori and a contradictory message is given to non-M\u0101ori; and is this an example of this Government\u2019s win-win scenarios?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d98ea9a3de14bcf9535c3f42a1a06f5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I hope I have made it clear to this House that as soon as I became aware that there could be a misconstrued message, I acted quickly to withdraw the pamphlet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c21e980eb6441eba51db9559a3f0fa6\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Which pamphlet is true, when M\u0101ori already have the same opportunities as every other New Zealander to vote and to make submissions to councils, yet section 81 of the Local Government Act reads: \u201C(1) A local authority must\u2014(a) establish and maintain processes to provide opportunities for M\u0101ori to contribute to decision-making processes of the local authority;\u201D; do M\u0101ori have special race rights or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e15138017584f559cfcb1ef7f7a9f9d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In fact both pamphlets are correct, in that they urge that councils engage with the M\u0101ori community to have it participate in decision-making processes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5f207650c52411fa166dced8cb09671\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not want to be pedantic, but we have just had two questions in a row granted to the ACT party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5244e01995a4e1fa94b0b92837da44e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I made a mistake, so I call the member now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022977c0d0dd4104d9a917054243e22e0db\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is prepared to stand in this House and say both positions are correct, then what is going to be changed in these pamphlets; and if his senior officials are so confused about this part of the Act that they cannot write something that is clear, what does that say about the Act itself, and will he look to repeal it, as well?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b7c89f108554d0ab6571d9840f08b18\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As I made clear in my initial answer, technically both pamphlets are correct, but I recognise and accept there is a possibility that they may be misconstrued, and that is why I pulled both pamphlets. They will be re-released with a consistent and clear message.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa76a95facd4b5d9e9efabf58321e5e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given his particular responsibilities, could he tell us, specifically, whether he and his Government believe there should be a separate electoral system for M\u0101ori?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251f63da6f3154f429d19e9638bd41e0a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: We believe that M\u0101ori should participate in decision-making processes. Local authorities now have the flexibility to devise a variety of processes to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c177863f8c2e405e9ed1a90792cced31\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked him for a specific answer as to whether he and his Government believe\u2014seeing that he is the Minister of Local Government\u2014in a separate electoral system for M\u0101ori. In that answer he made no attempt to address what is a very real question for New Zealanders today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c9cb7ca4344f18af518c7cbf901c87\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister want to add to his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5062e119a7f447e83ee8fd5956dec82\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am assuming that, by an electoral system, the member means one that exists currently in New Zealand. I would say\u2014and, I think, everyone in this House would accept\u2014that M\u0101ori should be able to participate in a local body election for territorial local authorities. They may use a variety of different processes to do that, but they would be participating in the one system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52d978833df441b8451892ecc4ac61f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last words answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd1fce8aa2d6445fa6334ae8da84a01d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not asking about the participatory levels of M\u0101ori in a franchise, whether it be nationwide or local. I am asking whether the Government believes in a separate electoral system for M\u0101ori\u2014yes or no\u2014when it comes to local government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c42b2faf906748f8965471cda21ea715\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members cannot dictate the form of the answer. The Minister is entitled to say what he believes, as long as it is relevant, and the last words of his answer were strictly relevant to the question the member asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291afb060c69e4b96a1d1e19a05b32e94\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If that is true, then does he or does he not believe in a separate system? None of us knows. No one on this side knows what the answer is, so how could he have answered the question? I asked him to address his answer to this specific question: does he believe, yes or no, in a separate electoral system for M\u0101ori when it comes to local government? What is the answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f7bd67e1be4e1e8db058d3c5dbdc29\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought that the Minister gave an answer to that question. Whether it satisfies the member is something that is outside my control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7237eb21c504a8ca991dcb89e438e26\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Did he see a draft of this pamphlet, or these pamphlets, prior to their being published?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022623e9f899d5049c1aa4a19bbac2fbb1c\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I saw a mock-up of the brochure at a weekly departmental officials meeting. I did not scrutinise it closely. I certainly will next time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd78e4a9ee514ec5a483a5fee371a394\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that the offending pamphlets have now been withdrawn from circulation, I seek leave of the House to table the copies we have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1ce6239c0f64bba8eaf860de311ad8d\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7cbad560acd4b50b3ed60969ee71aee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7cbad560acd4b50b3ed60969ee71aee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call question No. 6, Dianne Yates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655783802d564aa78b1c412488b5c9d0\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cee0e8b8f0149f38ec06ccd6ed323f3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I call Lynne Pillay on behalf of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022713d436ecff44f409d40594a35693a51\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: My question is to the Minister of Women\u2019s Affairs. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229caf6ca8e47c4c8b969546e4db72a379\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. Dianne Yates is in the Chamber. She was down to ask the question; she must ask it. I am sorry. [Interruption] Mr Hide, you are about to leave the Chamber. You make too much noise, and that is a frequent occurrence. I have given a ruling. I am on my feet, and I will not have any nonsense at all. Dianne Yates will please ask the question, as she is in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa12976d6ace44e1ada471cd9f8b49fa\u0022\u003EDiscrimination\u2014United Nations Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fcfce045fa14bda995937a7af28411a\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (NZ Labour\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Women\u0027s Affairs: How was New Zealand\u2019s report to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women received when she presented it to the committee last week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00225ef6d3ef74b743a59e998e8ced3f2b62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ef6d3ef74b743a59e998e8ced3f2b62\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister of Women\u0027s Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The committee acknowledged\u2014and I would like to quote from its press release\u2014\u201CNew Zealand\u2019s impressive legislation for the advancement of women.\u201D The committee chair praised New Zealand for having adopted a very sensitive approach to women\u2019s human rights, and stated we\u2014again, I quote\u2014\u201Chad a good chance of becoming a good practice example to many countries in the world.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264addffd7a7f4036ab4dd9a803bc30cc\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: What improvements have been made for New Zealand women since the Government\u2019s last report to the UN committee, in 1998?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d328dedd05d84e248747ced4cb4f7f39\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: We have introduced some significant measures over the past few years, including the introduction of paid parental leave, following serious concerns from the UN committee about the previous, National-led Government\u2019s lack of action on this issue in the 1990s. We have established a pay equity task force, established an Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner, and implemented the New Zealand Family Violence Prevention Strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804f8ead27474079b96ec42ea30223d1\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Given the extremely serious public health and human rights issues relating to the 6-week-old baby of the breast-feeding prostitute at Hawera, does her Government plan to take the advice of the United Nations committee that recommended overturning the Prostitution Reform Act; if not, how does she think the United Nations would view a law that allows the spectre of a prostitute mother of a 6-week-old baby openly marketing her milk?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257662f2b2e0c4bdeaa47d0bb081fb27a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Although it is slightly presumptuous of me to assume I know the views of the committee, I imagine that its members would be really unimpressed, as are the overwhelming majority of parliamentarians. The issue of the recent passing of the prostitution reform law was raised by two members of the 23-member committee, and I am very pleased to say that, during the conversations I had with the committee, its members understood fully that it was our clear understanding our compliance with article 6 of the convention continued with the passing of that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cf18a4c9041404abf691faafc5753c6\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the Minister\u2019s answer, does she agree with the view expressed at the United Nations women\u2019s committee that the new prostitution laws are a rubber-stamping for the exploitation of women in New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3b832a2f0d4671911e903e15408971\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not agree with that view, and it was not the view of the committee. One member expressed that concern, and I certainly support her right to do so; another member asked questions about the specifics of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df220aade1164b07be5320b88e66bcf6\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister justify allowing the following pathetic paragraph from page 51 of the New Zealand report: \u201CThe incidence of trafficking of women appears to have diminished in recent years. This is believed to have resulted from high-profile operations involving the Police and the New Zealand Immigration Service during the mid-1990s,\u201D; has the Minister visited Auckland recently, and how can she allow that statement to be delivered?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022373f429e4d574e3a8f06497001c3200f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are three questions there already. The Minister can answer two of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c5624e299c84e53a5928ec45ac59620\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I hope that one of them is whether I have visited Auckland recently, because I can confirm that that is indeed the case. The reason I am able to confirm the information contained on page 51, in relation to trafficking, is that it is true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c002627df5d849ecabf5623c63d24188\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Given the serious human rights and public health issues relating to the 6-week-old baby of the breastfeeding prostitute in Hawera, does she not think that the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women would expect, at least, our Minister of Health and Minister for Social Development and Employment to intervene, and why has our Government done nothing to protect the baby?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1749495c4749b18fbde0d844d13391\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated in answer to a previously asked and very similar question, I am not able to assume that I know the response of the UN committee in relation to something that has not been directly raised with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d65a377862947b6bd4d35a7e590f90e\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Did the UN committee identify any issues requiring further attention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254fd2e05f9ec4b09b7b7c5208a1919df\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the United Nations committee certainly did. It acknowledged the positive gains, but cautioned us against complacency, and singled out several issues, such as pay inequity and remaining gender stereotypes, as needing ongoing attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d5e771571f94d729ceb041d7ce3136f\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of the comments by the committee on page 22 of the report: \u201CThe committee expresses concern that the Government\u201D\u2014of New Zealand\u2014\u201Cdid not provide sufficient data and information on prostitution, the Prostitutes\u2019 Collective and the treatment of sex workers who were in the country illegally.\u201D; if so, what does the Government plan to do about that now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337d42fb6c814706a1744e5d0dd20234\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret that I am not familiar with that particular phrase. The committee has not reported yet. The committee has issued a press statement, following our report to it. The formal report is not due for another few days yet, but I am happy to take up the matter further with the member when the report is presented \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cd15df431874ef0a291a8432fd89787\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table pages 22, 50, and 51 of the report that was submitted to the UN committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002260e76dbae31045bab73704af28dab498\u0022\u003EGreenhouse Gas Emissions\u2014Agricultural Levy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022368ecdb571644842b3ab0757a5efa9e1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: Will he, or any of his Government colleagues on his behalf, attend the public meetings called by Federated Farmers to discuss the agricultural greenhouse gas emissions research levy at Masterton this evening, at Hamilton on Monday evening, and at Timaru next Friday; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002242cd3f4ff2ce432bbb409ac451238655\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242cd3f4ff2ce432bbb409ac451238655\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E My colleague Mr Sutton is overseas in the United States and Canada, as part of the build-up to the World Trade Organization ministerial meeting in September, which takes priority over the Federated Farmers meetings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022800f1f6d47fc455581abf2766fda0782\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This question was submitted at around 10 o\u2019clock this morning. It asks quite specifically whether he or any of his Government colleagues will attend the meeting. The answer that I have just been given half-answers the question, by suggesting that Mr Sutton will be unavailable for the public meetings. As the issue is quite important, I wish to know whether any of his other Labour Party colleagues will attend those three public meetings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c7e3f14ba048f682e1e740a5fe6bbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is over to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268789553e04e47679df5cfa3922763eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister said that was over to them, and that ends his responsibility. He said that the Hon Jim Sutton would not attend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e9623c4e0aa413f82c64d8731bc3fc8\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister claim that he wants genuine dialogue with farmers, when he and his colleagues will not attend public meetings called to hear their concerns?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7805fb3857647dc8111a21698a627ae\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Whilst there has been a lot of air generated on this issue, I think it is fair to say that even Federated Farmers would regard the World Trade Organization ministerial round as more important than its particular meetings on the emissions levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254e0c71b2a4a4313937c87ea75b733ef\u0022\u003EJanet Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: For how long has it been proposed that New Zealand join the Kyoto Protocol?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f79f92c26c5740b7a5b3fdc18d0ea66c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The former National Party Minister Simon Upton signed New Zealand up to the Kyoto Protocol, with the agreement of the then Cabinet. Since then, the Government has reviewed the protocol and decided to ratify it, because climate change is a serious issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa91ce5dbe214221903452c409545e22\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was a long way outside the original question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a14d6643b8df4aa29a13e51b16c0c479\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting those answers, is the Minister telling us that he views Federated Farmers with such contempt that he will not ensure that one Government member attends at least one of those meetings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fda3474a9d104edda1f840173cf7fc7a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of a senior Minister who has offered to meet with the Federated Farmers board on this issue and is yet to receive a response to that offer, and who has offered to attend meetings, provided, of course, that he has sufficient notice to be able to reorganise his diary. Federated Farmers are showing a tendency to organise these meetings at short notice, and then to spring the invitations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b73f50edf3946e1a806b926cadc2cec\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: What briefing did the Minister of Agriculture give to his Labour Party colleagues on the hostile reception he received at the Federated Farmers conference in Auckland recently, and is he asking the House to believe that that reception has no bearing on the failure of the Government\u2014either Ministers or back-bench MPs\u2014to front up to livestock farmers over the next week or so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a233bd8b70e4424596a09f35e917b04c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the members of the Labour Government caucus were well aware of the reception that the Minister received. I can assure the member that the timing of the World Trade Organization ministerial round and the preparations for it had nothing to do with the Federated Farmers meeting in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed1e037fb61541948fcbe1e579a63c94\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Why did Government officials tell farmers at the consultation meetings held last year that they would discuss only the method of collecting the tax, and not whether there should be a tax; what sort of sham consultation process is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217607d194a4b4b45ac899e38d408870a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: More than half our greenhouse gas emissions come from the agricultural sector. The agricultural sector will be exempt from the carbon tax specifically, although it will get flow-on effects from other carbon taxes. Instead, it will receive a very small levy for research purposes. It is the most favourably treated sector of any in the New Zealand economy on the issue of the Kyoto Protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caf8fe0ae62e4fc49cbc93390182e93e\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My colleague David Carter\u2019s question was specifically about the issue of consultation\u2014why the consultation was only on the issue of how the officials collected the tax, rather than on the tax itself. The Minister made absolutely no attempt to answer that, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225670aef4169d47709493906c4c8b55b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbe4de24ae2a43ceb174f38a4e889c4b\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister of Agriculture, in the light of the Labour Government\u2019s insistence on going ahead with this stupid tax, which has made New Zealand an international laughing stock, will the Labour members be prepared to put their money where their mouths are and to make a financial contribution to my flatulence tax jar; yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203c04810d526441a96aacad8d5490f4c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is a risk the member may lift the lid of the jar, and God knows what might come out in that case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a90c65934912457c960c96479a69a9e7\u0022\u003EYoung New Zealanders Challenge\u2014Participation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efc7d841f0de4afea9ba9481badd2f7a\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Youth Affairs: What is the Ministry of Youth Affairs doing to increase awareness and participation of M\u0101ori and Pacific young people in the Young New Zealanders Challenge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00223101a679339e459b887c7816402d7783\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223101a679339e459b887c7816402d7783\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E The Young New Zealanders Challenge is part of the Duke of Edinburgh Awards system in New Zealand. A new position has been created in south Auckland for a person to work alongside the community, to inform young people about, and to encourage them to participate in, that programme. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260edda7d2d614614aea64bfcbf741422\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: How does current funding for youth development programmes, like the one the Minister just referred to, compare with funding in previous years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022057f1aef06ee46e9b33cfd3b0de36082\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Spending on youth development programmes has increased by 20 percent, from $7.07 million in the last Budget introduced by the previous National Government to $8.838 million in this year\u2019s Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab94748a982d41faa93f61be83ee072c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that 33.4 percent of M\u0101ori and 24.8 percent of Pacific Islanders left school with no qualifications in 2001, and would he agree that the Ministry of Youth Affairs would be better to concentrate its efforts on encouraging young people to focus on the primary goal of education, rather than on secondary activities such as the Young New Zealanders Challenge?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e770f7d8e85e4a4e8099379b6d274704\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is always concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a19062f9dda74e00895ca033608a7e73\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: In the face of the alarming child poverty, youth suicide, and youth crime statistics, is the Minister confident that the Government, which is sitting on a Budget surplus of $4 billion, is showing stickability, commitment, and reliability to our nation\u2019s young people? [Interruption] I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I thought I asked the question of the Minister of Youth Affairs, but a member over here answered it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022934373a3209444b6a11abffa00444e61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will listen to the Minister answer it; I am not listening to anyone else. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a397eacbeb2e41d7a77714f20046a516\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry; I have lost track of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d49e83a99b740da9fa2d41698204e26\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a sign to members that they are wasting time. I want the member now to re-ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2d42d94a9074e6c85beb0908c69c187\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: For the pleasure of Stephen Franks, here is my question again: in the face of the alarming child poverty, youth suicide, and youth crime statistics, is the Minister confident that the Government, which is sitting on a Budget surplus of $4 billion, is showing stickability, commitment, and reliability to our nation\u2019s young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280c1b3f7f8eb4a65b41d3bb5206a49f4\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Minister is confident.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223f8bc0cdcebd4dec9cbb6c44727e9b6e\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u2014Advocacy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6a366e48be64ad9b8d0c606bb18acc8\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Does he stand by his statement in the House yesterday that \u201CAs Minister of Local Government it is my responsibility and indeed my privilege to act as an advocate for local government.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002212a8ca36ea9c4e1aa44b29b93587f453\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212a8ca36ea9c4e1aa44b29b93587f453\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a75bf91207247779412d12f8a2b672f\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the Minister\u2019s role as an advocate for local government, is he investigating alternative funding sources to alleviate the growing financial pressure on local authorities, in line with the call from North Shore City Council\u2019s Mayor, George Wood, for \u201Caction from both regional and central government in an all-out effort to find alternative solutions that are fair, workable, and lasting\u201D; if so, what steps has he taken, to date?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9b264a13c634096bb9891abb01f8089\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure that member that we are working with the local government sector to identify upcoming infrastructure costs and whether additional funding tools are necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fadaac1fe2f484db108375f83e8a32c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What action has the Minister taken to improve the system of local government in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e041552a269e42b1a15b7630e41714f0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The new Local Government Act requires all councils to be more responsive and accountable to their communities. That has to be a very good thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291487f55da4e4dea8274ed755f6672db\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Government in fact complete the promised review just referred to, and promised last year, in respect of local politics in Auckland\u2014given the huge increase in Auckland Regional Council rates and also the multiplicity of regional and local government organisations in Auckland, which clearly is slowing things up in terms of fixing the roads?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de8b07d15fd4421fb4a5b64d2244260d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that the Government is working closely with all Auckland territorial authorities to address questions like transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251ba5001f1074ce983799a3a74646300\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting those answers, will the Minister, as an advocate for local government, make any formal representation to his Cabinet colleagues to ease the burden on ratepayers, who are currently paying in excess of $300 million a year towards solving roading and transport problems; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a06d014aae843e0ba19f41e2864a5c3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Ultimately, the payment of funds to cover transport is borne by the New Zealand taxpayer. The Government is really conscious that in many areas the rating base is very weak, which is why funding for transport since 1999 has increased by 20 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022609edfad12f040178d0d4eea09802df8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: As an advocate for local government, will the Minister support to his Cabinet colleagues the submission of Local Government New Zealand yesterday to the Education and Science Committee hearings on the New Organisms and Other Matters Bill, which insisted that local councils must have a role in deciding whether genetically modified crops are released in their communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8b04d905b7240bfa7e4eb447ab972e4\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: In the next week or so I will be attending the local government conference in Queenstown. I am sure I will be very happy to discuss that issue, along with many others, with local mayors and council chairs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244b717c8c58a4935aaa6c44b8e3a7143\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: As part of his role as an advocate for local government, is the Minister prepared to meet Auckland\u2019s territorial and regional mayors to help them to find solutions to Auckland\u2019s rates crisis; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297103dd72fd24e34b1c46eb68bbe6eda\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Just last week, upon returning from Australia, I met the Mayor of North Shore City and the Mayor of Waitakere City on Saturday morning over coffee, and we discussed that issue. I had lunch with Mayor Banks last week, as well, and continue to have close dialogue with Auckland mayors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226910c37d9bc24e3f8eb29d2afd602e91\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s admission yesterday that the funding of infrastructure is the primary cost facing local authorities, and also that part of his role is to be an advocate for local government, will he lobby the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Finance to increase the percentage of funding allocated by Transfund for local roads from the current maximum of 47 percent to a maximum of 80 percent; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251f67fdfd71241dfa0222cac153f333d\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I will continue to have dialogue with my colleagues the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Finance over funding for local government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f78157277b342dca81991642433ded3\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: As part of the Minister\u2019s role as an advocate for local government, has he sought any advice as to whether local government should be required to pay GST on rates remitted due to Local Government Act requirements, having been alerted to that issue in the House yesterday; if so, what was the advice he received?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe134cce36a64d53836c178169405ea3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I must confess that I have not yet sought any advice on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a134b3ebe38d461faa10adc6b5724862\u0022\u003ENational Certificate of Educational Achievement\u2014Litter\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e4a542c9c7d417fb4983a11a564c194\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he support the decision of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to give NCEA credits for picking up litter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022722528fda57f4ef6af92cba92fdd24bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022722528fda57f4ef6af92cba92fdd24bd\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education))\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Education: There are no standards in the national qualifications framework requiring the picking up of litter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229706f26ce06347b39496587fc9947311\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister not just playing with words, given that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2019s spokesperson, Mr Bill Lennox, said that picking up rubbish, and subsequent written activities to show group activity, did fit within the unit standard to obtain two credits; if not, who is telling the truth\u2014the Minister or Mr Lennox?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf0e245fab54e2ca9a1a4eb6c3a401e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Both. There is an interpersonal communications unit that students can gain credits in. That unit requires people to do such things as identify team roles and responsibilities, and carry out routine functions to gain their credits. The kind of task chosen to do that is irrelevant as long as students can demonstrate those talents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e0bd48002a74357b440bcea7b390210\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House exactly what specific skills are tested through the level-one unit standard, \u201CInterpersonal Communications\u201D, which assesses participation in a team or group to complete routine tasks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4b525fca911490da2b039c5a208d2ac\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. People credited with that unit standard are able to identify team roles and responsibilities, gather ideas and information from other members, clarify their own and others\u2019 points of view, and achieve consensus in reconciling differences. As long as the task used in the course of assessment is routine, and can be planned and executed by a team, the subject of the task is not highly relevant. I am sure the member can appreciate how useful the application of those fundamental team, communications, and consensus-building skills is, whether the tasks are routine ones such as picking up litter or trying to manage the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba1c074166d4252b88d873def122b69\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister stand by the Minister of Education\u2019s claim that the NCEA is \u201Ca triumph\u201D, when an ACNielson survey late last year showed that the more parents know about this new qualification, the less confidence they have in it; if so, can he tell us why he thinks it is a triumph?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ac5b294d65449699200a456a4a7c71c\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I stand behind my colleague in saying it is a triumph. The reason I do that is that we are entering an extremely important era in relation to assessment in this country, which is now standards based, and which allows all students to demonstrate their ability in a wider range of subjects than traditionally. That has not in any way, however, changed the fact that the vast majority of students are doing languages, science, maths, social science, and technology subjects\u2014just as they have always done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022390b4546fe964108917708fb9ebf7e2a\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that achievement standards are also available for attendance at school, and does he think that a better way of targeting truancy would be to make a national student database an absolute priority, rather than stating that only a pilot programme will be available by 2005, at the earliest?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f53917b71d441185cbe73525690410\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: One thing that disturbs me is the way that people continue to trivialise standards-based assessment, which in itself does not mean that people gain credits just for attending school or picking up litter. They gain them for doing things that demonstrate new skills. I repeat that only 43,000 students took standards in other specialist areas last year, and, for example, 590,921 took standards in maths\u2014as they always did. The difference is that we now have standards, rather than simplistic ranking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022795702caf46c4385a097980c1c1149ee\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to point out that the substance of that question was about truancy. I do not believe it was addressed in the response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200344c6760834d6ba4111224796f0738\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member did address the question, but if the Minister wants to comment any further on truancy, he can do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fdfa5c6866740c2bc89949c7a911773\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: There is no achievement standard in the area of truancy, but the member is right, there do need to be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022643589ffaee143d6a7842bf903f5a57f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s surprising.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c228d9c78634ebdbefac6046fac8001\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, it is not surprising. That is something that people like Dr Smith would believe, but I am finished with him and will go back to the question. Yes, there is an appropriate way to go about looking at truancy, which would be outside the qualifications framework. I know that the member has raised some very interesting points in that area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4fd852d3c84c12a8900a4ae1119705\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Despite the Minister\u2019s assurance that students are not getting credits for picking up litter, I seek leave to table the article in the New Zealand Herald entitled \u201CPicking up litter\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4f773cc301547a68241c1f00c4ce9b9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that article. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bd3d06597c66429e870a6b86461acb0b\u0022\u003ECanterbury District Health Board\u2014Mental Health Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221416f04fc54d4429936566837d102ca2\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: What concerns, if any, does she have about plans by the Canterbury District Health Board to contract out the entirety of its residential rehabilitation services for mentally ill people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00222468e8aecf7046f9bca81f82bfefc6a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222468e8aecf7046f9bca81f82bfefc6a8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E My concern would be if there were any reduction in service or quality. The Canterbury District Health Board advises me that that is not the case. Residential rehabilitation is generally provided by non-governmental organisations and other community providers throughout New Zealand, so this is not a new concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d782846ba4c4e409a8f75f392aa3c38\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister allowing the Canterbury District Health Board to repeat the same mistakes that have produced such disastrous results in the Waitemata District Health Board area; and has she alerted Canterbury police to prepare cells for mental health patients in anticipation of the changes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b08fd9065746348076f9aa6e796fc8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: In answer to the last part of the question\u2014no, because the majority of patients who require residential rehabilitation care in Canterbury are already living within the community, and we have not seen them requiring police cells. This is a minority of people who have been left within the hospital structures, and who are being moved to non-governmental organisation provision within the community. It is a change that has already happened in most parts of New Zealand, and, as I said, the majority of Canterbury people are already in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022385d64e580374b54b9ea8f6e8a050b7c\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Canterbury District Health Board currently fund non-governmental organisations to provide residential rehabilitation services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eabb019fbf20408792d34789416279eb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the bulk of these services are already provided by the non-governmental organisation sector. The decision to change the way the service is provided was made after extensive consultation with the patients and their families, caregivers, staff, and unions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e00c4f588974773b1a3d47b7e584e58\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What work has the Ministry of Health done in response to the ring-fence protection project, which showed that mental health service delivery by the Canterbury District Health Board was short by 19 percent; and when will the people of Canterbury get the level of mental health services they need?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd9a945b66dc4bc4808f29cc0d8c8b4a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The South Island, and Canterbury in particular, has a much higher level of access to mental health services than does the area that the member herself lives in\u2014the Auckland and Midland district. I am pleased to say that this Government brought in the ring fence of mental health money a year ago. We reviewed that, found some weaknesses in the ring fence, and rectified them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c75763e183d423bbbbd2292e73b0cc5\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be encouraging more contracting out of services, in line with the growing number of enlightened Governments all around the world, so that patients are provided with the best quality treatment at the best price?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b3e0eaea49b42f8a6b300b6c9c3eff7\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the member that best-quality provision, particularly in residential rehabilitation, is what we are trying to achieve in New Zealand. What has happened has been very successful. District health boards are looking to provide the best service to meet the patients\u2019 and their families\u2019 needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c743b2315141465fa3408427fe9df847\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that such consultation as there was about this process was very late, very last-minute, and totally inadequate from the point of view of the mental health workforce involved, and of the patients, and that it is believed that the tangata whaiora involved are not aware that it will mean their moving into small flats, instead of the group residences in which they have been housed up until now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201c29c95d2a642ff9ea7e4bfe891602a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The initial consultation was inadequate, but it led to the National Union of Public Employees and the Canterbury District Health Board putting together a joint implementation team to ensure that transition arrangements would be put in place for patients moving into the community. That is now happening, and includes monitoring arrangements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022964750f330674fbc801258068d8504dc\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that the Canterbury District Health Board has got its priorities right when it is cutting its mental health services to save $500,000, while at the same time, over the last two financial years, every single one of its 96 managers has received bonuses totalling $1.9 million?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd1db859b7a4c6488e62425150a611e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Mental health services in Canterbury are not being cut. The payment of bonuses is not something that I am prepared to support. However, I am told by the board that these are not bonus payments, but money that was withheld from salary and paid only on performance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224850bfb305fe4cd8a7fb4dd16989e6ca\u0022\u003EMountain Biking\u2014Promotion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd903b1de7604c4aa661d856046ff352\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What is being done to promote mountain biking on conservation land?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022416c26bcbd78498aac125adc535407e0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022416c26bcbd78498aac125adc535407e0\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Lots! My department is working in partnership with mountain bikers to create exciting opportunities on conservation land. The Prime Minister and I recently opened a premier mountain-bike route in the Kahurangi National Park. A host of routes are available in Otago, including the 150 kilometre - long Otago Central rail trail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa9414cf16241e48fff3dbf234c8e63\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Is mountain biking permitted in national parks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022799dd61d792c488988d8fb40a7d101ca\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mountain biking is permitted in national parks, but only on formed roads. This rule is set by the national parks general policy and approved by the Conservation Authority. The public will be consulted on the issue when the policy is reviewed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c17a20b5fb6442edba2bb70b96946460\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 6 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u0022356385d0f15e4c5492797dfb78ec2481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022356385d0f15e4c5492797dfb78ec2481\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (NZ Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask for your clarification with regard to a question that I did not want to ask. Speaker\u2019s ruling 123/1 states: \u201CIf when a question is called the member in whose name it stands elects not to ask it, the member cannot be compelled to do so, and unless leave is sought and given to postpone it the question would disappear from the Order Paper.\u201D I ask you whether that is still relevant, or has it been superseded?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022719469cd6058489791f58f5e00ffe77e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. If a member does not want to ask the question, the member does not have to do so, but no other member can ask it on that member\u2019s behalf if the member is sitting in the Chamber. That was the difficulty we got into, and that is why I had to call Dianne Yates\u2014because she was in the Chamber. If she did not want to ask the question at all\u2014and perhaps I was a bit too quick in insisting that she ask it\u2014certainly, no one else could ask it on her behalf.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00229c07f9ce370a4e7da7c5eaaaaab8b46d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c07f9ce370a4e7da7c5eaaaaab8b46d\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Your ruling is correct, and perhaps I was a bit remiss too, because your ruling gave the impression to the member that she was required to ask the question, whereas, of course, if she had sat in her seat it could not have been asked. However, the point I raise is a more serious one. As members of Parliament we are entitled to assume that a question that is in Dianne Yates\u2019 name is her question. I am left with the impression, as I am sure the House is, that question No. 6, which we all realise involved prostitution, on which she took a strong view, was not written by her. In fact, I am left with the impression that the Government whips who are in favour of that legislation gave this question\u2014which is very embarrassing to a person who was the leading opponent of the Prostitution Reform Bill\u2014to her to ask, in order to humiliate her. I would like an assurance from Dianne Yates that it was her question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ed9c5562d314f94ba3f37fa9b0df11d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That question was properly lodged in the way that whips lodge questions. I have just checked up, and found it was properly lodged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00229a5d2e57343c4b8984d95cedb23ec4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a5d2e57343c4b8984d95cedb23ec4d2\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have no doubt that the question was properly lodged, but did Dianne Yates approve that question or did some other MP sign it without her approval? That is the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289710c131215430aaeaef08065e598bb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Only Dianne Yates herself can comment on that, if she so wishes. If she wishes to comment on it, then she can. If she does not, then she does not have to. No member can demand that another member speak for himself or herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00225c7447b429c743d7965c3dd880dab3f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c7447b429c743d7965c3dd880dab3f6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I guess what you are saying is, as usual, correct. But it was not a Labour Party question; it was Dianne Yates\u2019 question. If she did not know about it and approve it before it went in, then that shows that the Government whips are abusing the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a2e09db9adf475cbe5b8e85629a786b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That might be the member\u2019s spin on that particular thing, and he has made that point. However, nothing that I have said today is out of order with the rules of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002235243d33bb2d4ec28c572469a353fe00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235243d33bb2d4ec28c572469a353fe00\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cb01bb3616042a7b7ffd837787cf701\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This had better be a new matter, this time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4e231d24aea43aaa5fe6503c455b355\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: It is, indeed. Is it your ruling or understanding of the Standing Orders that it is quite in order for an MP to put in an oral question in another member\u2019s name, without that member knowing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b14233a618774c0db777ec5a41500784\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: With authority, yes. This question had the authority of the whips concerned because, of course, parties are allocated so many questions per day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310c6984a9c7425fac199c20eecb0289\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: So it is possible to put a question in in another person\u2019s name, without that member knowing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf78fab26bda4d63af9cd16a91cdf60a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is, with the authority of the member in whose name the question is put. I make that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221c4a554db03c4dbe9461e374bc6c18e7\u0022\u003EState Sector Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222350eac8c27549b4a01f676ba28237ef\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000254\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 23 July.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f07ebe643726450bb4db58dffed8e9cd\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdfaee37baea4d288265428f4eb2c07f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdfaee37baea4d288265428f4eb2c07f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E We were saying that this bill is shockingly misnamed, and I am pleased that the Minister of State Services, Trevor Mallard, is here as the Minister in the chair. This small amendment bill has 13 pages of amendments in it, and the United Future party has signed up to it without those amendments having had select committee or parliamentary scrutiny\u2014the public process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWe say that this bill should be called the \u201CLet\u2019s Override the Parliament Bill\u201D, because it gives enormous power to the executive to restructure Government departments. It could be called the \u201CLet\u2019s Get Rid of Christine Rankin Bill\u201D, because that is its purpose. Trevor Mallard did not like her, and wanted her to be fired. Because he did not want her to get the big golden handshake he restructured the civil service, just to get rid of one person. That is what that Minister did. We could also call the bill the \u201CTime Doesn\u2019t Matter to the Socialists Bill\u201D, because the cause of this bill is over 2 years old. The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs realises that that is so, and nods his head in agreement. Christine Rankin is long gone, but we are still sitting here with this bill, which gives the Government the power to get rid of her through the restructuring of the civil service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI would like Trevor Mallard to take a call and explain why the executive should have that power, and to explain why 13 pages of amendments should be rushed through Parliament with the doormat\u2019s\u2014the United Future party\u2019s\u2014support, rather than going through the select committee process. I would like the Minister to take the call and explain\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e79e648ae3047d8be30ed2cffc7de41\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the member to desist from using that sort of description of another party in this Chamber. In fact, I ask him to withdraw it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb4b98d73df4b30bf511f9f83197f37\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw it. The United Future party is the \u201CAgree With Everything This Government Does, Whatever it is, Party\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a553e979b464e02a0b9b4abb8915bd1\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: Doormat!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baead8c70da94d43bbd0507f5b25487c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I could not possibly say that. Members of that party just agree with everything the Government wants. They may speak against what the Government wants and oppose it vehemently in this Chamber, but then they vote for it. That is probably what we will see today, although I do not think they have examined the ramifications of doing that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister in the chair to take a call and explain this bill and its title, rather than riding roughshod over the United Future party, which is very friendly to him. Why does he not put in the title what the bill is intended to do? Or have we got it wrong? Is it not the case that under this bill the executive can restructure a department without coming to Parliament? Is it not the case that under this bill chief executives can be fired without the Government following the proper process? The Minister just sits there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002229a5949d9e9042b4b2e33b4274eae8ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229a5949d9e9042b4b2e33b4274eae8ac\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E We in the National Opposition oppose this bill, and for very good reason. I commend Mr Hide for his description of what the bill\u2019s title should be. In speaking to the title, I say the bill could very aptly be named the \u201CIll-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill\u201D, and I shall proceed to tell members why I say that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere are some guidelines for the formulation of a bill. First, one has to ask whether the legislation is actually needed, at all. Secondly, one should consider the need to involve lawyers early in the policy formulation stage. I would like to refer to the New Zealand Law Society\u2019s submission on this bill, because, in my view, it addresses a very, very critical part of something that has been totally overlooked in the formulation of this bill. The submission states that the proposed provision overrides contracts by means of statute, and that that point of principle requires careful consideration. It goes on to state that whilst Parliament has the power to pass laws that alter the terms of existing contracts, that power should be used with caution and sparingly. That comes from the New Zealand Law Society. I do not see any reference to those issues that are present in the bill, because there is no commentary on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThat is why I refer members back to the title \u201CIll-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill\u201D. There is no reference to the Law Society\u2019s submission on the bill or to the matters it raises, which are of significance. I will read out to members a little more of what the society has to say. It states that the legislation involves a statutory interference with private rights that arise from negotiations undertaken and concluded pursuant to other statutory provisions. Here I would like to refer members to another basic principle in the formulation of legislation: the legislation that is being formed must fit appropriately into the general body of existing law. The question could well be asked as to whether that has been considered in this case. Again, the bill has no commentary to explain those matters or to address the concerns put forward in the Law Society\u2019s submission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI refer to another crucially important point in the society\u2019s submission\u2014the last point that it makes. It states that the Crown is not only promoting the legislation but also will be the contractual beneficiary of it. Because no reference is made to the serious concerns raised by the submitter\u2014there is no commentary\u2014this bill is ill-conceived, so hence my suggestion that it should be called the \u201CIll-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI have further reasons for calling this bill ill-conceived. In 2001 there was a 6-page Supplementary Order Paper on it. We now have Supplementary Order Paper 107, which at 13 pages is exactly the same length as the bill itself, and it has a Bills Digest covering it. There is absolutely no commentary on any of those documents. When one has a Supplementary Order Paper that is exactly the same length as the bill itself, I ask how one could possibly suggest that the legislation has been well conceived. I refer back to my suggested title of the \u201CIll-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill\u201D, because the Supplementary Order Paper is the same length as the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would also like to raise another matter. The Public Service Association made a whole lot of recommendations in its submission. These amendments have all been done to satisfy the concerns raised by the Public Service Association. Was there no consultation on the policy that was being established prior to the drafting of the bill? Again, I say this is the \u201CIll-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill\u201D. If the proper guidelines had been followed and met, lawyers would have been involved at the outset and those matters would have been addressed. I say to members again that the Crown is not only promoting the legislation but also will be the contractual beneficiary of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would also like to refer members to another issue that was raised, and that is the issue of transparency and accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf456d003c704ebd83cc2cd759209e7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf456d003c704ebd83cc2cd759209e7d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make some relatively brief comments. First of all, it is good to see the member in the Chamber, and I apologise for not recognising her as a member of Parliament when we were at a recent function. But I will catch up with the new National Party back-benchers at some stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022064bdf062ce1430d80c3969d9a7fc4b7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How is this related to the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228844208eab314534928a131fd78cf244\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am being nice to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b2a0b0b1f074b60bec1fbe0836f7cc3\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That is unusual!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022738817cb19f14b998c4d67b77df18b24\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, and because the member is relatively new I think it is probably worth explaining one or two points. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe essence of this bill\u2014the piece that she focused on, and the bit that we care the most about\u2014goes to a fundamental question about whether a public servant or a State sector employee should get redundancy pay as well as a job when there is a nominal change of employer, through the amalgamation of agencies. That is the guts of it. Should they get redundancy pay as well as a job?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a759ca726fa74beda8445da4e789d6f3\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: That is contractual interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220289656e2517491bac97b242a0c4aace\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member is absolutely right. There is contractual interference in this case; we are interfering with a contract. We say that we should not pay out probably hundreds of millions of dollars of redundancy to the staff members in Work and Income New Zealand because the name of that agency changed. That is what we are on about here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c092d0731344fdd9a4b89caff96d7d4\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: The Public Service Association addressed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7722d8db06a45c6972ed1844822b595\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: One cannot address it by way of a backdated precedent. The member has suggested that every individual contract with every person who was an employee of Work and Income New Zealand should be debated and dealt with in every case, when there are tens of thousands of employees. Frankly, the member is bonkers. Legislation is the only way of doing something like that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EI want to make one more point, as National Party members have criticised the redundancy area of the bill. I want to remind them about the Tourism Board, and how it had a bunch of incompetents on it\u2014Murray McCully\u2019s mates\u2014and paid $400,000 to an individual when he resigned. This Government stands up for probity, and that lot are opposed to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002265f5cd3f958449dbab98713885537ed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265f5cd3f958449dbab98713885537ed7\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (NZ National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to follow the Minister\u2019s comments and address some of the concerns raised by my colleague the MP for Coromandel, Sandra Goudie, and to get a little more specific about why the title to this bill\u2014the State Sector Amendment Bill\u2014does not reflect the actual position that is being stated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill effectively exempts public sector organisations from a series of rules that apply to the way private sector organisations are restructured, or if different companies within a parent company are transferring employees from company to company, or entity to entity, within an umbrellaed company structure. There is no way that private sector organisations would get away with trying to pull the stunt that the Minister is trying to pull while sitting in that chair and promoting this bill. Because of the facts surrounding Christine Rankin\u2019s removal from Work and Income New Zealand, the Minister is trying, by promoting this ill-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill, to exempt the Government from the very provisions it put in place under the Employment Relations Act, and the very provisions that members on this side of the House told the Government would occur in exactly this type of situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI cannot believe for one moment that the Minister in the chair could seriously want members of this House to deprive employees and workers of their rights to claim redundancy entitlements because they happened to work in the public sector, and decide that the public sector needs to be reformed in a way that makes its entitlements different from those available in the private sector. How can United Future members sit there and allow two standards of redundancy compensation to apply\u2014the difference between private and public sector\u2014and sanction the removal of redundancy provisions in the public sector because this Minister took his time some months ago to remove Christine Rankin from a position in Work and Income, and was required to legislate that restructuring in a way that avoided the provisions of the Employment Relations Act? That is why this bill should not be called the State Sector Amendment Bill, but the \u201CTrevor Mallard Exemption to the Employment Relations Act Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThat is a serious concern, and it is a double standard when one considers that if in the private sector, two entities, both owned by the same parent company, were to undergo the transfer of employees from one company in a structure to another company in a structure, this Government would be crying foul if those employees were prevented from bringing technical redundancy cases. This Minister should get to his feet and explain why Parliament should pass legislation that devolves from those employees the rights they are entitled to under legislation promoted and passed by this Government in the last term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill should be renamed the \u201CDouble Standards for Redundancy in the Public Sector (To Get Us Out of a Tight Spot With Christine Rankin) Bill\u201D. It is unacceptable for the Committee, and, in particular, United Future, to sanction such a differentiation between public sector and private sector employees. It is being done in a way that seems unprincipled, and is nothing short of desperate retrospective legislation to get this Minister out of the tight spot he created by supporting the passing of the Employment Relations Act through the House in the last parliamentary term. These are serious legal questions, and that Minister should get to his feet and answer them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbedfe5964d942c6b865e9e96cdc2a4b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbedfe5964d942c6b865e9e96cdc2a4b\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I have been brought to my feet in some excitement by the comment made by the Minister in the chair, because, if I heard correctly, this bill will deal with that long-running sore that the Minister was so hot about in 1999. According to his comments, this bill would in some way change the outcome if Mr Murray McCully again had to deal with dud directors or dud employees\u2014I think he referred to the Tourism Board as the example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222940ae00103042a9b73b02f6a043cb2e\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I did not say it applied to Crown entity boards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e7b82f6e194134a1037c7361b6ef07\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: From what the Minister told us, I understood that this bill would have made some difference to the dumping for $400,000\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b1cabf7f20b4ef3a94ca22e2759fb9b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efa12c50accd41bf913719c7a7f7fcb4\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The $400,000 was explicitly mentioned. That is what I heard from the Minister. When I heard that and looked at the title of the bill, I started to think that I must have misunderstood. I thought: \u201CWe should be voting for this bill.\u201D It occurred to me that if there were a way of getting rid of these rorts\u2014these claims by duds, this abuse of the legal system, these horrendous golden farewells, these things that inflame ordinary people, directors, business people, and Ministers alike\u2014and if the Minister had had the courage to bring in something, even if he was sliding it under the title of State Sector Amendment Bill, and had the courage to do something about the abuse\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258783a2e21bc45f8a1d89d54660139b7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not question the courage of any member of the House, let alone a Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271c1abc6c497497f8d81e46ff20a53ed\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. If the Minister had had the openness and fortitude to do what he said he was going to do in 1999\u2014that is, get rid of the law that held businesses to ransom when they were getting rid of a dud senior employee\u2014we would certainly be voting for it. ACT would be absolutely into this bill if the Minister were doing anything more than just making an empty political speech. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have scanned the bill as best I can, and see that there is a clause in it that would perhaps justify the title \u201CState Sector (Ministerial Decree) Reorganisation Bill\u201D. That might be a little bit of an example. There is the provision that states that the Minister can by Order in Council do things that, up until now, we thought would require reversion to Parliament. But I certainly do not see anything to do with the address the Minister gave us two speakers ago, when he referred to Mr Murray McCully. But if I have misunderstood the bill\u2014if there is something in it that does address the issue\u2014then the misnaming of the bill will certainly not stop us from reconsidering our opposition, because it is a very long-overdue reform that the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274747297060b4263bf60e1dda64cad97\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: ACT should support this bill. It does not support double-dipping for public servants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df23acb3dafa4c09babf44132d49c59c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: We do not support double-dipping, but we certainly would support the Minister if this bill contains what he implied it contains\u2014that is, the ability to return employment to at-will terms. What I understood from the Minister\u2019s intervention is that he supports at-will employment for senior executives, as does every sensible economist, employment lawyer, board of directors, and senior employee. They know that when they are taken on, there is an allowance in their enormous salaries to reflect the risk of being dumped, should they be found unsatisfactory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIf this bill actually contains something along the lines of what the Minister intimated, then we certainly would need to reconsider our opposition. From looking at the actual words, and not the Minister\u2019s description, the best we can tell is that it does nothing of the sort. In fact, it expressly preserves all the existing rights and entitlements. The effective reorganisation is said not to affect existing rights and entitlements\u2014other, of course, than the minor redundancy he is trying to tackle. That, presumably, concerns those sorts of technical redundancies that the Government imposes on the private sector\u2014the redundancies that the Hon Margaret Wilson was very happy to try to trigger with her proposals for a law that would attack transfers or reorganisations of private businesses. But for the State sector the attitude is: \u201COh, no, we can\u2019t do that.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d48613df77214e42a3a0eb40341b7a1c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Different kettle of fish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ccbcb978aff43d5a5028e8357598fe9\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It is a different kettle of fish. No, we will take State employees and make sure that they do not get the kind of windfall opportunity that the employees of The Dominion Post got, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00226e35795077854af88206edd5e62a2dcd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226e35795077854af88206edd5e62a2dcd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d042fd581df4499b4937481c0dbfa4f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the Hon David Carter has been seeking the call for some time, but members have been clearly indicating that they wish to move on to the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00223b6bcb8eada9492d832d94fcc5b42b22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b6bcb8eada9492d832d94fcc5b42b22\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Chairman, for observing my persistence. I certainly want to talk to the title \u201CState Sector Amendment Bill\u201D, because in my mind that title does not reflect the true ramifications of this legislation. We see a lot of amendment bills going through this Parliament, and in many cases they involve minor amendments, but I want to argue that this bill is not about a minor change to the State sector, and therefore should be called the \u201CState Sector Restructuring Bill\u201D. The history of this legislation was detailed when the Minister himself took a call about a quarter of an hour ago to explain why we are discussing the State Sector Amendment Bill. This bill is about the ability of the Government to significantly restructure our State sector and not have to bring that restructuring back to Parliament for Parliament to debate it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Mallard took his call, he said that this bill was a relatively minor piece of legislation\u2014I think he used the word \u201Cinnocuous\u201D. He talked about a situation occurring whereby if a public servant \u201Cgot a nominal change in his or her role\u201D, then that person should not be entitled to redundancy. That is why this legislation was rushed into the House at the time we had the Christine Rankin issue on the table. The Minister shakes his head\u2014he has forgotten. That is why the Minister introduced this legislation and gave it a 5-week period in the select committee before it had to be reported back. It was because there was an important issue around a certain embarrassment for the Government associated with a certain person called Christine Rankin. The Government restructured her job, restructured the department, and took that as an opportunity to get rid of her. That is why this legislation should be called not the State Sector Amendment Bill but the \u201CState Sector Restructuring Bill\u201D, because that is the sort of power it gives the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Minister can take the next call to explain why the select committee was given only 5 weeks before the bill was rushed back into the House\u2014where, lo and behold, it sat on the Order Paper for two long, laborious years before Mr Mallard thought: \u201CI think we should try to finish it off. We\u2019ve got ourselves into an embarrassing situation with the State Sector Amendment Bill, and we now need to at least complete the process we started.\u201D That is the issue with this legislation. It is not about a minor amendment to State services. It is not about changing the redundancy possibilities or provisions for employees of the State sector when there is a nominal change in role. Christine Rankin was not faced with a nominal change in her role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022945e1c03fde64a39931202c32738721d\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Her contract had expired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af5340174e04483825014c7a85a9294\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That Minister wanted to get rid of her\u2014so did Mr Maharey\u2014because she was so effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b8dc7bdf55a464291952ac90ef9cbba\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ebcfb0725ad4355a1a18232dc54eef9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister laughs again. He should be ashamed at the way sickness and invalid beneficiary numbers have increased under that Government. Christine Rankin would not have let that happen; she cared too much about the people. She was not going to cast those people into the benefit trap, whereby the Government hopes they will vote Labour for the rest of their lives because they do not know any better. She wanted to actually help people and give them an opportunity to make a commitment.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Mallard that that is what this legislation is all about. It is about making sure that the Government does not get into an embarrassing situation when it has someone who is actually good at their job and performing so well that it goes against the interests of this Government, which quite likes seeing people trapped on a benefit. That is why I am arguing strongly that this legislation be meaningfully named by calling it the \u201CState Sector Restructuring Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022851e4936892b4efc888265ee3b3617c6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022851e4936892b4efc888265ee3b3617c6\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ff44affaea304f2e826fb1cbca24384f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c3f8ae39fe8402ea3a7d1d5c24a5211\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b44fc546cc7d49b6879b82b334da6c5b\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022b240ac2776b74a6c9a85e1e82e2c3e2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b240ac2776b74a6c9a85e1e82e2c3e2f\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1, as introduced, was a relatively straightforward part. It contained the commencement date of the Act, and the purpose. It was relatively straightforward, given that the bill was introduced a couple of years ago. But with the passage of time, the Minister of State Services has really abandoned the bill. He has wandered off and decided that he does not really have the heart to follow it through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWhat has happened in that period of time, of course, is that there have been some departmental mergers. The Government decided it did not like the culture in the Department of Work and Income. It was a culture that forced beneficiaries to front up and meet their obligations. So the Government merged that department into a much softer Ministry of Social Development. The Government has decided it does not like the stand-alone Department for Courts. I do not know exactly what the department has done to offend the Minister and the Government, but, clearly, it has done something, and it is going to be rolled into the Ministry of Justice. Of course, we see the potential\u2014and the Government is already talking about it\u2014for a whole lot of other smaller departments to be rolled into some of the larger ones, so that their voices will not be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWe have a Supplementary Order Paper that is longer than the bill. In it we are being asked today to deem that, with regard to the Department of Work and Income and the Ministry of Social Development, parts of the bill came into force on 1 October 2001. So here we are, 2 years later, passing some retrospective legislation to say that we deem that all of this came into force 2 years ago. That is because the Minister might well face some sort of challenge in the courts. He rushed through his ideological change to that department, and never bothered about the details. His attitude was just to bully everybody into place, shout loud enough, look like he was going to be tough enough, and it would all hang together, and it kind of does. The Minister nods because that is the way he operates; he thinks it is fine. But now he has to come to the Chamber to say that he wants Parliament to rubber stamp this and say that all of this came into force a couple of years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe irony is that the Minister is going to get there with the votes of the United Future party, which was not in Parliament 2 years ago. The United Future party is going to vote to deem that those provisions became law at a time when it was not here. That party is going to support that. [Interruption] One of its members was here, but a whole lot of others were not, yet they are going to vote for this measure as if they were here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe other great irony is that the purpose of this bill is to allow the Minister and the Government to roll up a whole lot of departments they do not like. They do not like some of the advice they get from the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs and from the Ministry of Youth Affairs. Those Ministers are a risk to them, so if the Minister of State Services and the Government can roll those ministries into a bigger department, then that is fine. Those Ministers will not lose their salaries and perks. They can become Ministers of State. The Government is very adept at keeping Ministers on high salaries, with chauffeured cars and Ministers\u2019 houses\u2014the whole works\u2014but without their having a job. So the Government will just roll up some of the ministries into bigger departments. I predict we will now see a whole lot of Government departments being either rolled together or under the threat of being rolled together. That is the sword that hangs over a chief executive\u2019s head. Should he or she deem to give advice that the Minister might not like? If the Minister does not like it, or if the Minister is not competent, the department could just be rolled into one of the bigger departments. That shields some of the more junior and incompetent Ministers from questions in the House, shields them from any real accountability, but protects their salaries and their perks. That is what this provision is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI was thinking back to the time when State sector reorganisation was going on, in the early 1990s. I was thinking of some of the speeches that Labour members used to give in which they opposed technical redundancies. They used to rail against them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002202d4f32b1ecd45efbe2e8cc955ff9d3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202d4f32b1ecd45efbe2e8cc955ff9d3f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have some sympathy for the thrust behind this bill, as have my New Zealand First colleagues. The thrust is to remove the potential for payment of redundancy to a person who was employed in the public sector but now has a job in an associated area. We see that as an issue that needs to be looked at, examined, and addressed. But, my having said that, it is the procedure that the Government has taken that causes us immense concern. It is not a new procedure. It is quite common now for this Government to present Parliament with a bill of a certain size and to present a Supplementary Order Paper of equal size.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb2f49204cfc4f7986253eecc86c8909\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s bigger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222270d31eadda4fdeb78c54f3903f56bc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: In actual fact it is not. I say to Mr Carter that if he examines the pages, and takes out the contents and the explanatory note, he will find that it is about the same size. It is 12 pages. But it is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EAnd, of course, it is retrospective legislation. As the Hon Roger Sowry indicated, part of the bill is retrospective to the degree that it relates to a time before United Future was in this Parliament, yet its members are going to vote for it. In actual fact, I think it relates to a time before United Future was formed. I do not think United Future was formed on 1 October 2001, yet its members are going to vote for legislation that goes back to that date. United Future is supposedly the common-sense party that stands for fair play, yet it is going to support this measure. I would welcome United Future members taking the call to explain that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn Supplementary Order Paper 107 the Department for Courts is mentioned for the first time. The wording of an amendment to clause 3(b) is: \u201C(iii) the abolition of the Department for Courts and the transfer of its functions to the Ministry of Justice.\u201D What effect will that have on the people there? Frankly, we do not know. What opportunity will they have to table their concerns? None. There is no select committee and no public hearing. It is simply a fait accompli. The Minister feels like getting rid of the Department for Courts, of taking it and putting it under the Ministry of Justice, and that is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI ask the United Future people whether that is what they stand for. Is that what the Greens stand for? I know that it probably is what the Greens stand for. They have allowed significant legislation to go through this House without their giving any explanation whatsoever. I remind both the Greens and United Future that there is pressure to televise this Parliament eventually. The public will see, first hand, MPs sitting here, not prepared to make a contribution at all, and allowing a Supplementary Order Paper equal in size to the bill to go through without their making any word of comment at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a33b1ea1694413f8b1e6fce64600aa9\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s outrageous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222101a3c0e7ea40bba46664c9ec3df1af\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is. It is shameful. This is not democracy. These are dictatorial and autocratic procedures. I have already stated that the thrust behind the bill has merit, but the way that it has been handled is absolutely deplorable. Come the next election, United Future members will have to stand on the platform and say that they put their hands up for bills that the public did not even have the chance to contest before a select committee. That is absolutely shameful. The Greens have a habit of giving support lightly, but I thought more of United Future, particularly as it makes much in its advertising of it being the common-sense party, the party for fair play that looks after the interests of New Zealanders. And United Future members sit there in silence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec1c301a6d04706aa016d1f9dc8b496\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re called the \u201CDoormat Party\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5dc918acb7446da796e6e9f4637750\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it called the \u201CDoormat Party\u201D? Is it because people walk all over it and wipe their feet on it? Surely not! I find that incredible. I see Mr Baldock following this with extreme interest. I look forward to his call, when he will explain the briefing he got, and why, as he understands it, these people will have their potential right to redundancy removed without their having any opportunity whatsoever to go before a select committee. Is that what the member stands for?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00225a62b688566542069edad9b38ec11b1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a62b688566542069edad9b38ec11b1f\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I congratulate Peter Brown, the deputy leader of New Zealand First, on that superb contribution. I am superb\u2014I am so pleased that the member walked in today. I thought that was a wonderful contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bb6f6c7b2c8476bb7a41879b3351fcb\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie\u003C/span\u003E: You are superb, Mr Carter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d71f7a89b5446d1b8534986b17d60b1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. I want to talk to clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and the purpose. I am surprised. We have before us a bill that went through the select committee process 2 years ago, and that sat on the Order Paper until yesterday, but suddenly Mr Mallard decides that it is appropriate to advance this legislation, so he tables Supplementary Order Paper 107, which is longer than the original bill. I say to members of the Committee that they should examine that Supplementary Order Paper with care because it will not have the opportunity to go before a select committee. That is fundamentally wrong. When one examines the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014and I direct these comments to the United Future party particularly, whose members are not giving me much indication that they have even picked it up and had a look at it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c070272038cc49649aa370f726c90fe4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Ask Larry Baldock what\u2019s in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ddf02b778c44b3acc4952254121114\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague suggests that we ask Mr Baldock what is in the Supplementary Order Paper. The record will show there was no response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI will take some time to talk about this Supplementary Order Paper, because its amendments to clause 2, as alluded to by my colleague the Hon Roger Sowry, provide for the retrospective nature of the commencement date. The amendment to clause 2(1) retrospectively validates the Government\u2019s restructuring of Work and Income New Zealand, which was done only to get rid of Christine Rankin. Various provisions will be deemed to have come into force on 1 October 2001. That is unacceptable. Legislation should not be backdated the best part of 2 years to make sure this Government can attempt to dig itself out of a hole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThere is another aspect of retrospectivity. The amendment to clause 2(2) states that various provisions, in so far as they relate to the Department for Courts and the Ministry of Justice coming together, will come into force on 1 October 2003. The Opposition feels so deeply aggrieved by that move that we will still be here debating it on 1 October. Mr Mallard does not have a hope of getting it passed for the royal assent by 1 October. That is the second aspect of this legislation that is retrospective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe third point I want to make is about any future restructuring coming into force the day after the legislation receives the royal assent. That is a relatively typical clause that we see in this Parliament from time to time, but I suggest that there should be a time delay on any further restructuring, and that it should come into effect on 1 June 2006. The reason I say that is this Government is, obviously, intent on another round of restructuring that it is not prepared to bring before Parliament for debate. I know that before 1 June 2006 there will be another election, and I, as a member of the National caucus, will take those further restructuring plans to the electorate, which will have an opportunity to comment on them. If those people vote for a National Government in the next election, as I am sure sensible people will do, we will have a chance to undo the restructuring plans that are about to be initiated under the cloak of darkness by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThose are the three points\u2014[Interruption] He is the knight of darkness, is he not? Those are the three points I want to make on the commencement. The fourth issue I want to raise is about the purpose of the bill. A very substantial amendment to the purpose of the bill is tabled in Supplementary Order Paper 107. I do not recall, in recent times, a substantial amendment to the purpose of a bill being tabled in a Supplementary Order Paper, which does not have the opportunity of going before a select committee. That is a very dangerous precedent that the Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221faff6a2b160474783684883b4b559ad\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: An abuse of the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230a58daeaa8a420abc7c7961f1793fc5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! It is an abuse of process. Surely, Mr Mallard, in preparing the original regulation, knew the purpose of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4be727b93cf4d2694823cfb89d506d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4be727b93cf4d2694823cfb89d506d1\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00224af95327876b4d96a98b2684038781e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224af95327876b4d96a98b2684038781e7\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I simply cannot resist making a contribution on Part 1. It is the part of the bill that looks at the commencement. As we know, the commencement date in the first subclause of clause 2, on Supplementary Order Paper 107, is 1 October 2001, which shows the sort of shambles that this Government is involved in\u2014it having legislation here that is so far out of date. That is the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EBut this bill is the biggest fraud ever to go through this New Zealand Parliament. It is absolutely appalling legislation, because it involves this Government using this Parliament to shield itself from a huge embarrassment it faced in its first term of office\u2014the huge scandal and embarrassment over Christine Rankin, the chief executive whom it wanted to destroy. What did the Government do? Rather than go through the proper employment process\u2014so that she might have a payout, or whatever\u2014it decided to use the power of Government and the power of this Parliament to bring in legislation that had no other purpose at all but to restructure the Department of Work and Income so that the Government could axe Christine Rankin, the chief executive, in a way that did not bring it public embarrassment. The Government went out and said: \u201CThis is a big department. We need an umbrella organisation. We need a Ministry of Social Development.\u201D It was a plot hatched by the Minister sitting in the chair, Trevor Mallard; by the Prime Minister; and by the social services Minister, Steve Maharey. It was those three who decided that that was a perfect way to put up a front and get rid of a chief executive without having to give her a golden handshake.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister of State Services that, of all the things he has done since he has been in Government, he should be more ashamed of this bill than of anything else. It brings the whole of Parliament into total disrepute. Those three people announced a restructuring of the biggest Government department, the Department of Work and Income, without the chief executive knowing, without the chief executive of the Department of Social Welfare knowing, and without any of the 5,500 staff knowing, and with no costings, no consultation, and no research. It went against all the papers that had been produced about what should be done about the social services sector, if changes were wanted in the future. The Government did that for one reason, and for one reason only\u2014to be able to restructure the public service without it having to go through due process. So, now, with an Order in Council, the Government can change everything in the public service without there being any checks and balances, and without there being any proper scrutiny of the reasons that those changes are being made. I say to that Minister that I still think it is the most appalling thing that he ever did. I do not care what answers he gives in this Parliament; he knows in his heart that it was simply a way for his Government to avoid embarrassment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI say to Green Party members, who went along with it, that they should be ashamed of themselves, as well. I can understand that they did not like the Department of Work and Income. They did not like the work-for-the-dole scheme, the department being tough on benefit fraud, and all those things, so I can understand why they supported that change. I cannot understand why United Future members would ever support it. They say they want to be tough on welfare. Well, that mechanism allowed this Government to go totally soft on welfare. It got rid of all the good things, and that is why sickness beneficiary numbers are increasing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWhen there is a downturn in the economy, welfare will be the single biggest problem that this country faces. It already is, with about 400,000 people on benefits, in spite of all the employers out there who want people to go and work for them. We have a Government that already has created a huge problem. Do members remember that before Labour changed welfare back in the 1970s, there were 28 workers to every person on a benefit? Right now, there are four workers to every person on a benefit, and when the economy turns down, under this Government\u2019s changes to the welfare system there will soon be three workers to one, then two workers to one. This Minister, in introducing this bill, which allows the Government to manipulate the public service, is responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u00227119a7df78a2493ba5dafd31da988d76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227119a7df78a2493ba5dafd31da988d76\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022303b8045a0d54b14aee3499d0a0e6a9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022303b8045a0d54b14aee3499d0a0e6a9e\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak against this bill and Supplementary Order Paper 107, and to speak in relation to the commencement and the purpose of the bill. I take up the cudgels on behalf of people in the public service who are doing their job too well. If they do their job too well, if they get people off the dole, if they get people away from being beneficiaries, they are liable to find themselves restructured out of a job, and on the dole themselves. That is what this Minister of Sate Services is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EUnder Supplementary Order Paper 107, subclause (1) of the commencement provision, which has been spoken about so eloquently by speakers from this side of the Chamber, provides that sections 6 to 11(1), as they relate to the Department of Work and Income and the Department of Social Welfare, are now deemed to have come into force on 1 October 2001. That is a disgrace. It is 2 years too late. It is retrospective legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper, which we were given yesterday, is longer than the bill itself. One of the reasons that this is so shocking is that this bill went to a select committee and the Supplementary Order Paper did not, yet the substantial part of the legislation is in the Supplementary Order Paper. That is a disgrace. We note that the New Zealand Public Service Association gave submissions on the bill, on behalf of its members. But what about all the thousands and thousands of individual members of that association who would have loved to give submissions on this bill, but who really could not because they know what happens to any public servant who says \u201CNo\u201D to this Government? That is a shame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about retrospectively trying to tidy up the Government\u2019s mess in relation to Christine Rankin, who was too jolly good at her job. Now I see that the Government is trying to do it to the Department for Courts and the Ministry of Justice. How many other Supplementary Order Papers will we have slotted in today? How many other departments are going to be done away with, or is this a way of getting a rid of a Minister? The Department for Courts and the Ministry of Justice have two different Ministers. Why are those departments being merged? Is it because the Prime Minister has lost confidence in one of those particular Ministers, or is it because she has lost confidence in both? Certainly, this Parliament has lost confidence in both, as has the public of New Zealand. How many others will be included here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis bill is all about giving powers to the Government that it wants to take away from the private sector. It wants to make technical redundancies in the public service just that\u2014technical, with no capability of their being paid out, no capability of any due process. Yet, in relation to the private sector, there is talk about getting rid of any possibility of the same sort of protection for employers. The Government wants to do away with it, to get rid of any technical redundancy provisions. That would make private sector employers far more responsible than this Government will ever be for its workers who happen to be public servants. This bill is bad for public servants. It is bad for the chief executives. It is bad for New Zealand, and it is bad for employment generally, because it has two different standards: one for the Government, and one for private employers, who have mortgages on their homes, and whose businesses are on the line every day that they are at work. Those are the people who create most of the jobs in the country, and who keep the country going, yet they are getting a tougher standard applied to them than what the Government gives to itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThis Government bullies its chief executives, and, in fact, bullies its own members\u2014as we saw today in the House with Dianne Yates\u2014to try to keep them in line. This Government is a disgrace. As Dr Newman said, this bill is something that Trevor Mallard should be absolutely ashamed of. It is an acknowledgement that he cannot organise his own departments without having to fire chief executives in some way or other. He is too frightened of treating those chief executives with decency and restraint, as a good employer would, so he wants this Committee to get rid of those chief executives by law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002296cbf1e68504479baf67f6b13a65e582\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002296cbf1e68504479baf67f6b13a65e582\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u0022088020295cfe4c43963d1bb34685f46e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022088020295cfe4c43963d1bb34685f46e\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (NZ National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I am very grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution to this debate. I have had a full 5 minutes or so to read the bill, and I admit that, in the first 2 or 3 minutes of perusing it, I thought it was rather innocuous, but as I read further, I started to have some concerns. In particular, I am concerned that this bill, as it has been drafted, will start to create some instability, because as Government Ministers determine that they do not like someone, they will seek to restructure a whole department just so that they can get rid of an individual or individuals. Of course, the name Christine Rankin comes to the fore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThat must have been a black day in the book of Trevor Mallard. It is a day that he will always remember with some regret. She was too good at doing her job, so rather than embracing someone who was strong, he decided to get rid of her. What will happen is that instability will creep into the public sector as people get nervous. They will be looking over their shoulder if they have had the courage of their convictions and stood up to the Minister, and said: \u201CMinister, with all due respect, on this occasion I don\u2019t think you are right.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EEssentially, this bill allows the Government to change or amend the names of departments or the structure of departments at a whim. It lacks transparency. There were people who submitted to the Government Administration Committee who warned that Government departments would become destabilised, and that departments would be changed at the whim of a Minister. I refer now to an article in the Dominion Post, entitled \u201CPublic service under threat\u201D, that was relevant to those submissions. It reads: \u201CAppearing before the Government Administration Select Committee on behalf of Environment and Conservation Organisations of New Zealand, Ms Wallace said the proposals had repercussions for State agencies.\u201D It goes on to say: \u201CIn particular, the bill proposes allowing technical changes to departments to be authorised by Cabinet and not involve legislation in Parliament.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThat is a very, very dangerous precedent, and the creation of the Ministry of Social Development is just an example of it. Fancy having a ministry with the name of \u201Csocial development\u201D! What we are doing is encouraging welfare entitlement as opposed to trying to do something about it. I do not have to, but I want to commend the contribution made by Dr Muriel Newman when she attacked Trevor Mallard and Steve Maharey on their support of those who would rather seek welfare than work and make a contribution to this country. Good on Dr Muriel Newman\u2014she was dead right! What is happening in this country under the guise of social development is an absolute disgrace. It is of extreme concern to me, and it is extremely dangerous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMuriel Newman pointed out that one in four people in this country is now on a benefit of some sort. [Interruption] That makes for a population that is bigger than that of the city of Christchurch\u2014indeed, one would need a shoehorn and a crowbar just to get the population on welfare in this country into the city of Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ffa29424ed640a5ab65750f9be122e5\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Go and join the ACT party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e04b7302cec4f9499e15db226971496\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Those members who are yelling out support that. That is what those members across the Chamber are doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe other issue I want to address is that of technical redundancy. [Interruption] The bullfrog is yelling out again. Does he want to say something? I thought not. He will make cheap shots, but he has no courage: he does not want to take a call, but he will yell out. Technical redundancy is something that concerns members of this party and members on this side of the Chamber. I remember very clearly that it was the Labour Government of 1984-87 that introduced it. The Minister forgot that, but his party introduced it. When I was trying to introduce companies to New Zealand, I faced\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002202ab49a55143458faa7c42f791749d94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002202ab49a55143458faa7c42f791749d94\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022785f2d1eabc746468bc24e48d0735e7d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000362\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 107 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222328be5fa14e4b14939bdb6b50dae38e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000363\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d753a20bc63c40adbb4fdd6c44b28ec7\u0022\u003EPart 2  Reorganisations within Public Service\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee296d1df28a49c48ded3385b3f72daf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee296d1df28a49c48ded3385b3f72daf\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak to this part. I would like to commend my colleague Judith Collins for an exemplary speech to the Committee raising some very important points with regard to Part 1. Part 2, about reorganisation with regard to the public sector, is a pretty substantial part. I would like to raise a matter that was also raised by one of the submitters to this. In mentioning the submitters, my colleague Judith Collins is quite right that the public sector employees would find it very difficult to put in any form of submission protecting their interests on this bill. They would face dismissal or job placement elsewhere\u2014maybe even legislation to move them along. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would like to bring the Minister\u2019s attention to a document I have here called Legislative Change: Guidelines on Process and Content, revised edition. This was report No. 6 by the Legislation Advisory Committee. This document talks quite clearly about the role of transparency with regard to State sector departments. One of the things this document says is that Parliament should have to approve the addition of new departments to the list of departments scheduled to the State Sector Act 1988, as well as deletions and alterations, and it also recommends that departmental statutes and related legislative provisions should not, in general, be enacted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EHere we have some major concerns around the rearrangement of State sector departments. There should be public and parliamentary debate around the legislative processes to test the merits and demerits of any changes that are proposed. But this part of the bill takes all of that away. That denies the public the right to ensure that the processes and the provisions in their interests will be protected. That is absolutely wrong. They should be able to make sure that whatever has been put in place to protect the interests of the people are clear, transparent, and accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIf we adopt the provisions in Part 2 we are shutting down that openness and that transparency, and the public interest will not be well served in that regard. The recommendations come from some pretty substantial people. There is a list of the components of that committee, and their recommendations should not be ignored. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThese are the guidelines that have been accepted by this Parliament. They say that the responsibility of developing legislation in accordance with the guidelines rests with the Minister. We have already seen that he has failed in a number of respects in introducing this legislation. He has failed to provide the opportunity for the Supplementary Order Paper to this amendment bill to be put before the select committee, and that is a gross omission. That is an absolute failure of fiduciary duty of this Government. I note that the Hon Lianne Dalziel used that term today\u2014fiduciary duty. Do Government members understand its use when they fail to ensure that the fiduciary duty of the Government has been followed in regard to this Supplementary Order Paper? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI was about to tell members who made up the committee for setting the guidelines for legislative changes, and those legislative changes are meant to be the responsibility of the Minister. I find it surprising that he wants to ignore these recommendations, given the calibre of those who made them in the first instance: Professor F M Brookfield, Mr J G Fogarty QC, Mr A R Galbraith QC, Mr W Iles QC, CMG, Sir Kenneth Keith, Dr Mervyn Probine CB, the Hon Mr Justice Robertson, Judge D F G Sheppard, Mr C J Thompson, Adrienne von Tunzelmann, and Rodney Harris as secretary. The calibre of those people is substantial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00224c2219837db545fd82f01d084647aa9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c2219837db545fd82f01d084647aa9c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E It is interesting that today we are debating a Supplementary Order Paper that covers Part 2, and which is a complete rehash of the bill that we debated way back in July 2001. I was in that debate on 11 September 2001. Here is the bill that we debated then, and even at that time I said that this had been rushed through because we had 4 weeks from introduction through to the second reading and the select committee. One of those 4 weeks was a recess week. In effect we had only 3 weeks, and we heard nine submissions at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EHere we have a Supplementary Order Paper tabled at the eleventh hour last night that nobody has had an opportunity to go through to see what it means. What impact does this have on the Government\u2019s organisations? We do not know what the impact is, because this Government, at the eleventh hour\u2014which it so commonly does\u2014drops legislation on us where there is no scrutiny, no opportunity to go through to appraise the legislation, to debate it, and to scrutinise the impacts of it, because this was dropped on us last night. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EWhen I look at this Supplementary Order Paper, which in effect absolutely replaces the whole of Part 2 that was in the bill, I see that it is a complete rewrite. This Government is now in the habit of trying to sneak this stuff through at the eleventh hour without that opportunity of clear scrutiny and transparency that we would expect. If we look at what this bill is to do, we see that it will allow by Order in Council the executive to make the decisions about merging. It will make the decisions about what happens to staff and chief executive officers. Under this regulation, people will not have to fire anybody, because they just amalgamate or abolish the department, and there will be no redundancies for those people. We are aware of what happened with the Rankin affair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to bring the Committee\u2019s attention to a very important message in a submission made by the Regulations Review Committee dated 15 August 2001. I was a member of that select committee at that time. This is the point that was made: \u201CWe question whether there are sufficient reasons to allow an Act of Parliament to be amended by a regulation in this way.\u201D It said that there needed to be much closer scrutiny. It then went on to say: \u201CThe proposed change may be administratively convenient, but this must be weighed against the loss of parliamentary oversight.\u201D That is a very, very powerful message. That came from the Regulations Review Committee, of which I was a member at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EIt goes on to say that the amendment will allow an Act of Parliament to be amended by a regulation. This is a Government that is using more and more regulations to get what it wants\u2014more and more regulations so that the scrutiny of Parliament does not take place. This is the place that we should scrutinise these things. This is the place where we should debate these issues, but when this bill is passed it will allow by Order in Council the executive to make those changes. National\u2019s position is very, very clear. We believe that it is an abuse of the process and that it politicises the process and it is something that we will not support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe Regulations Review Committee also made the statement that the amendments will allow an Act of Parliament to be amended by regulation. I am stating that again, because that is what will happen. It goes on to say: \u201CIt is therefore important to consider whether there are sufficiently strong reasons why this matter should be dealt with in regulations rather than primary legislation.\u201D That is the message that the committee set. It had doubts about the process going by regulation and said that there were insufficiently strong reasons that it should not be through primary legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00229fa4d2f09790439ba13988c4dc824bc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229fa4d2f09790439ba13988c4dc824bc9\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E This amendment, and in particular the Supplementary Order Paper that introduces all the provisions to exclude the State sector from the consequences of deemed redundancy on reorganisation, should be an automatic benefit for everyone in the community. But that is obscuring another problem in this part, and that is the constitutional implications of resuming the Department for Courts into the Ministry of Justice. I say there are constitutional implications, because the Department for Courts is shortly expected to have the administrative control of a new Supreme Court. If there is one thing about Supreme Courts around the world, it is that they are intended to have a degree of administrative and budgetary autonomy. That is certainly not expected to be available to the new Supreme Court under the bill that is before the Parliament, or under the pattern that has been established in New Zealand in our Department for Courts model. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EYesterday the Justice and Electoral Committee heard from a person who is regarded as probably the academic expert on top courts in the British system. He is a New Zealander in London. He told us: \u201CIdeally, and in fact commonly, a top court will appoint its own registrar, who will then manage the court\u2019s other administrative personnel appointments.\u201D He had a lot more to say on that, but he said: \u201CIt\u2019s a significant detraction from the court\u2019s institutional autonomy, and not consistent with international best practice in the design of top courts, if administrative personnel are treated as ordinary public service employees. The bill should be amended to allow the court to appoint its most senior officers, who should themselves have the responsibility of employing the court\u2019s other administrative staff.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAnd there is more in the same vein about budgetary independence and about parliamentary supervision of the budget of such a court. He tells us that in the United States two justices of the Supreme Court, and, in other countries, senior administrative officers, go before a committee of the Parliament to report on operation. In other words, there is a review process. He says: \u201CIn a system as relatively small as New Zealand\u2019s, it may be even more important that the court enjoy much greater autonomy in such areas.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI say to you, Mr Chairman, and to the Minister in the chair, that that is important, because this bill is effecting a merger that has never been explained. Nor has there been any significant report on the effects. Indeed, the Justice and Electoral Committee felt compelled, unanimously\u2014Labour members, members of the Green Party, and other members\u2014to express strong concern about the absence of any explanation of this merger. I quote from our report last month: \u201CWe have found it difficult to assess the impact on Vote Justice and Vote Courts, since the merger appears to have been decided upon after the preparation of the 2003/04 estimates.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWe quoted various advice, and then indicated that we did not consider there was an adequate level of discussion for a decision of this importance. We referred to the Auditor-General\u2019s article on organisational change. We have cited the article. We said: \u201CWe consider that\u2014as a first step\u2014the purpose of the change and the results sought should be clearly articulated, if Parliament is to be assured that the change is in the public interest, and the effects of the change are to be measured.\u201D This has not happened. There has been no real explanation of why the Department for Courts is being subsumed. The only statements we have had are indeed very worrying when we put them in the context of a Supreme Court that is to have the powers to develop the kinds of laws the Attorney-General, Margaret Wilson, wants it to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe purpose, according to what the Minister of State Services said the merger would achieve, is to \u201Cenable better coordination of the relationship between the Executive and Judiciary in respect of both policy and administration\u201D. I say to the Minister that we need to know just what is meant by this proposal, that it is not just the executive and the Department for Courts or the administrators. It says \u201Cthe judiciary\u201D, in respect of policy and administration. Is this an attempt by the executive to bring the judges to heel in policy terms? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002256b71596380c4f50b6698d9f6e0f1655\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256b71596380c4f50b6698d9f6e0f1655\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak against this bill, and, in particular, Part 2. There are many reasons for opposing this bill, and there are many reasons for the Minister to want us to just roll over, like the United Future party and the Greens, and accept this sort of behaviour. One of the things that is very, very concerning about this bill\u2014and I note the submission of the New Zealand Law Society, which has yet again given a very, very good submission\u2014is that it overrides contract law where that contract law is to the benefit of the employee. I say that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EMany people have entered into employment contracts\u2014either collective contracts or individual contracts, in relation to the more senior members of staff, in particular\u2014and they are entitled to know that their contract means what it states. They are entitled to know that where their Minister has been slack and allowed provisions in the contract, such as technical redundancy provisions whereby they can be paid compensation, they are entitled to the benefit of such clauses, because the contract law should be paramount. In respect of that, I would have thought that those parties in Parliament that are always bleating on about the rights of the employed would actually look at that issue, and consider why they want to take away from employees the rights that they currently have under their contracts. Those particular parties, the Labour Party and the Green Party, should be ashamed of themselves for supporting this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe United Future party, which was not in fact a party at the time when this bill was introduced, should be ashamed of itself, because it has promoted itself as the party of common sense. However, it has shown no common sense here, although it has, in many ways, tried to uphold some centre-right principles in its allegiance with the Labour Party, which has been very difficult for it. Yet here United Future is again saying that the contract law on employment, or employees\u2019 rights, can be stood over by a Minister who loves to bully people\u2014a Minister who loves to try to shout people down\u2014and that he can just continue to do the same to Public Service Association members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThat Minister wants to say the Public Service Association and the Council of Trade Unions made submissions. But I say to the Minister that they did not actually agree with his bill. This bill has been rewritten by Supplementary Order Paper 107, which was lodged only yesterday. It is being rushed through Parliament so that the Department for Courts can be merged with the Ministry of Justice, because obviously the Prime Minister has lost confidence in either one of her Ministers or both of them. Also, the Minister has his eye on any other department or ministry where the chief executive may be doing too well, may be trying to get people off benefits, or may be trying to stand up to a Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe employees of every single ministry should be out there considering their situation, in terms of the fact that the rights they have won through their contracts are being overridden by legislation that is being rushed through the House after sitting around for 2 years. After 2 years of going nowhere, suddenly this legislation is being rushed through without consultation, because the Minister does not really want the employees of the ministries to know what is happening. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI notice that some members on the Government side of the Chamber are calling out \u201C2 years\u201D. They think that makes a difference. But the fact is that if they bothered to look at the Supplementary Order Paper that has been introduced, they would discover that it makes this a different bill from the one introduced then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u00228efadd2348fb492d8489920618072fa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228efadd2348fb492d8489920618072fa2\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1ac44e752bb49f09c28b1ad517abebd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1ac44e752bb49f09c28b1ad517abebd\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E We are going through a very important process at the moment. My colleague Judith Collins has just said that this legislation is being rushed through. Members on the Government side of the Chamber have said that it has been sitting around for 2 years\u2014that is what they have just said. But the point that we made earlier is that this bill is actually a rewrite, because we had Supplementary Order Paper 107 lodged yesterday at the eleventh hour. No one has had an opportunity to look at it, and what are Labour members doing? They are rushing it through now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ELast night we started on this debate, and here we are today with a completely new bill. Part 2 and all the schedules are absolutely new. The point that I made in an earlier debate was that the original bill went to the Government Administration Committee, which had only 9 days for submissions. I was on that select committee and heard those submissions. Then what happened? The second reading was on 11 September 2001, and the bill sat in abeyance for 22 months. When we came back yesterday to debate this bill, we found that it is not the bill that we had talked about back in September 2001, because we now have a Supplementary Order Paper that is longer than the original bill. We have 13 pages of new material that no one has had an opportunity to look at. The point here is that we believe there needs to be scrutiny and transparency. This is an abuse of the process, because the Minister has lodged a Supplementary Order Paper without the opportunity for anybody to have a say about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to hark back to the point that Judith Collins and I made about the Law Society. The Law Society stated that the need for cautious assessment of the proposed provisions is given emphasis here because one of the parties to the contracts that are to be overridden by means of statute is the Crown. That is what the Law Society stated; contracts will be overridden by the Crown, by Order in Council. The executive will decide to merge departments, amalgamate them, and abolish them. Those matters will not come back to Parliament, for us to debate and to see the merits or otherwise of\u2014[Interruption] I invite the Minister to take a call and substantiate the reasons that we are debating Supplementary Order Paper 107. It is interesting, is it not, that not one Government member has taken a call on that substantial Supplementary Order Paper?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a446b13cfa849119d99c8a0dd324161\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2bb31143e4f47ec90a86f71b2ac3747\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, the Minister says that he took a call, but at that stage we were debating the title. We are now debating the substantive part of the bill, and I would have thought that if the Minister believed that he is not, by regulating, overriding what Parliament can do, then he would take a call to put that matter to rest. The Law Society, in its submission, stated that the Crown would override contracts by means of statute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe Law Society went on to state that the Crown is not only promoting the legislation but will also be a contractual beneficiary of it. This Government, by regulation, will be able to take away the right of the public to make submissions. This Government is becoming increasingly arrogant, and is increasingly using regulation to push through its programme without the scrutiny of this House, and without the transparency that all members and every other New Zealander expect there to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI go back to the point about the Regulations Review Committee. The Minister might like to take a call and answer the question that I put to him earlier on. I invite him again to take the call, because that is what the Regulations Review Committee said. That committee is the watchdog, and the question has not been answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u002219210304ebde43b1b7555f4a6afa4594\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219210304ebde43b1b7555f4a6afa4594\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chairperson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a55a7b56a2f4d92ba8a71b429defade\u0022\u003EStephen Franks:\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I wanted to ensure that I did not get into a position where I was debating or questioning the closure motion, but I do ask that before you take the next speaker you consider that Supplementary Order Paper 107 effects a change in the Department for Courts, and there will be no opportunity for select committee discussions on that. This will be the only time that Parliament can debate the detail of that particular change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec609642a61e4bad8e1d616d80e98392\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to call the member next, but David Cunliffe has called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d98a3581064412cad754ac5b64fddb0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022caf463087e714cb4bee4df1c59d7cec8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caf463087e714cb4bee4df1c59d7cec8\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a point that has not been raised, except in the last call that I took, that this bill effects the disappearance of the Department for Courts. The merger announcement, and what I understand to be effectively the only explanation for that, was the statement made by the Minister of State Services on 16 May this year. That merger announcement talked about the justice sector review. A paper to Cabinet released at the same time indicated the merger would have a number of beneficial effects. But there has been, as I understand it, no other explanation of the reason for the provisions in Supplementary Order Paper 107. There has been none of the normal regulatory impact statement that would have been expected, had that measure been in the bill when it came in. There has been nothing to indicate the attention that we would expect to be given to a matter of some constitutional significance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EFor example, in this bill we do find a number of changes in the schedules\u2014and I am not debating the schedules at this stage\u2014that point up the extent to which the Department for Courts had been given a position of privilege in relation to information. It has been recognised that the administrative role of registrars and other court officials has an important relationship to the independence and impartiality of justice, and to the perception of a justice system that is not affected by executive or legislative pressure. My concern is that the only thing we know is that the merger is supposed to do a number of things that look as though they are intended to increase the influence of Cabinet and of the executive over the court system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EOne of the purpose statements the Minister made was: \u201Cbetter align the administration of the justice system with policy advice on the overall development of the New Zealand legal system\u201D. I could spend time deriding the empty-jargon sound of that, because there must be better ways of stating what was intended. What does \u201Cbetter align\u201D mean? Does it mean \u201Cbring together\u201D? How will we preserve the independence of the courts? There is nothing in this bill that does that. What does \u201Cimprove connections between research policy and practice\u201D mean? Does the \u201Cpractice of the courts\u201D mean practice in a timetabling sense, or is it \u201Cpractice\u201D in terms of getting the outcomes that a Government would want, in the efficiency of handling appeals, or in terms of appointments? There is no detail, and this matter is not trivial. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Minister\u2019s statement, as I have mentioned before, stated: \u201Cenable better coordination of the relationship between the executive and judiciary\u201D. What sort of relationship is a healthy one in a country with our kind of traditional relationship between the executive and the judiciary? It is very well established by convention that the relationship should be at arm\u2019s length and very carefully handled. But there is nothing in here that says that the Minister has given any attention to those constitutional conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe statement goes on to state: \u201Creduce fragmentation by combining two agencies in one, and be manageable in terms of risk\u201D. I believe that the Minister owes it to the Committee, and to the \u201Csector\u201D, as it is so often called in the jargon of these kinds of announcements, to explain just what needs better alignment, and what protections there will be in that alignment against the court system being at least perceived to be, and possibly being in reality, subordinated to the wishes of an executive that is obviously contemptuous of some of the conventions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Secretary for Justice was not able to help. When asked about just exactly what the \u201Calignment\u201D and \u201Ccoordination\u201D was to be, she said both organisations in question required more staff, and the main cultural difference is that the ministry is more policy focused. Of course, that is exactly what the Ministry of Justice was supposed to be\u2014that is, policy focused\u2014and the Department for Courts was supposed to be justice focused. But the secretary told us the biggest driver behind the merger was to bring the courts closer to policy development. Does that mean the courts will be developing policy that this Government could never get through Parliament? Does that mean that the Minister of State Services wants to see more of the kind of decision that the Court of Appeal has just made, whereby a major policy implication of the Treaty of Waitangi, a major policy in terms of ownership of and access to beaches and the foreshore, is made by the courts in a way that would never have been voted for by this Parliament, and is made by judges who are not able to be recalled by the people? Is that what is intended by this change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u002253036d7dce3d46a2bae3c1683610cd83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253036d7dce3d46a2bae3c1683610cd83\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9b6be083cee47c99671be8334cde719\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9b6be083cee47c99671be8334cde719\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to raise one of the points in the Public Service Association submission that the Hon Trevor Mallard referred to. It states: \u201CMany aspects of the amendment are based on principles that the PSA has negotiated in management of change clauses in collective contracts and agreements.\u201D The Hon Steve Maharey said the association could not do that. Obviously, it is doing that, because it has said so in its submission. No wonder I came up with the title: \u201CIll-conceived State Sector Amendment Bill\u201D, because, clearly, there is some confusion on the part of the Minister as to what prevails and what does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn looking at Part 2, I have to raise again concerns about the obvious lack of cognisance of Legislative Change: Guidelines on Process and Content. The Minister, in that document, is clearly identified as being the person responsible for this legislation, and therefore he is responsible for the appalling state of it. He is also responsible for Supplementary Order Paper 107, which has come in at the eleventh hour from a Government that has no hesitation in putting a requirement for consultation in all its legislation\u2014and going way, way over the top in the Local Government Act\u2014but has not bothered to consult on this Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Supplementary Order Paper has not been referred to the Government Administration committee, and, in my view, that is a complete miscarriage of justice. Some significant concerns have been expressed by the New Zealand Law Society. When one considers that the Crown not only is promoting the legislation but also will be the contractual beneficiary of it, and that there is not any select committee process for this Supplementary Order Paper, which is a substantive change, one realises that there is an absolute miscarriage of justice. There is no commentary, nothing. There is no opportunity to have legal involvement in determining the efficacy of this legislation, especially in the light of the guidelines on legislative change. If I were assessing this Supplementary Order Paper against the guidelines on legislative change, this Supplementary Order Paper would not be happening. Anyone in his or her right mind would not support this Supplementary Order Paper\u2014which, in effect, is the bill\u2014which has been put forward by the Hon Trevor Mallard. I keep tending to forget that name; I wonder why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EConsultation is such a biggie with this Government. Government members have put huge costs on local authorities by including a raft of consultative processes within the Local Government Act, yet they cannot even adhere to that principle themselves in the introduction of a major Supplementary Order Paper. It is not having any consultative process attached to it. That is a miscarriage of justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThose members are laughing about that. They do not care. They are saying: \u201CWe\u2019ll stick it on the public.\u201D They have put in the Local Government Act a requirement to consult. In the Land Transport Management Bill there are about five or six clauses on consultative requirements for M\u0101ori alone. Those members love that. They will put that cost on every Joe Bloggs out there, through his or her rates, or through petrol taxes or whatever, but they will not apply that process to themselves. They want this measure, so they say: \u201CStuff the consultative process!\u201D. That is what those members are saying. They are not going to bother. \u201CWhy should we?\u201D is what Labour members are saying; \u201CWhy should we care what the people think? This is what we want. We want to change round all these departments as we see fit.\u201D They do not want to go back to the public and be publicly accountable for what they are doing. Goodness me, no! That is why they are going to shove through this Supplementary Order Paper\u2014which is just about the whole bill\u2014and to hang with any requirement to consult the public. Those members are not interested in public opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe have a Government that is going to do what it wants at all costs, and to hang with the consequences. Who will pay? It will be the people of New Zealand who pay, and they will pay in a whole raft of ways. This lack of consultation is typical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002228c8f2321f7f4ccba884cbfa4679b0c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228c8f2321f7f4ccba884cbfa4679b0c7\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022054c67a7e8094a2fa02b7be202352703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022054c67a7e8094a2fa02b7be202352703\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Madam Chair, I appreciate your allowing us to express our concern. I had almost completed asking the Minister of State Services in general terms to explain just what is behind Supplementary Order Paper 107, or the merger of the Department for Courts and the Ministry of Justice. I realise that he may not have been prepared for that, but he does have officials with him. It may well be that the merger is something that he has not been directly on top of, and that the reasons for it are not his responsibility, but this Committee is entitled to know just what arrangements are going to be made, given that the Ministry of Justice now also includes functions that were previously with the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Ministry of Justice now has operational functions that some people might have thought were policing functions. There are crime minimisation, or crime reduction, functions. There is coordination work that involves the Youth Courts, the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, and caseworkers. According to what we have been told, it involves pilot programmes in a number of places that involve the police, and those are, at the very least, constitutionally awkward if they fit within the same administration, without any kind of Chinese wall or any kind of information barrier, as the courts. When our courts are administered as an undivided part of a Ministry of Justice that has functions that come very close to policing, we have the sorts of concerns that at this very time have led the British to go to all the trouble of abolishing the role of Lord Chancellor and moving the House of Lords out of the legislature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThese are not light issues. Countries that take human rights seriously, that worry about the risk of well-meant structures being abused in times of stress, do not simply abolish a department of courts, and merge it with a ministry of justice, at the same time as they are dumping their top court, sacking their top judges, and replacing them with a new set of judges with, at the moment, unknown characteristics and conventions. This Supplementary Order Paper treats this merger as though it were a simple matter of substituting some words for others; substituting references to the Department for Courts with references to the Ministry of Justice. I say to the Minister that that may be easy to draft, and it may be that it is administratively convenient, but, at the very least, there should have been a paper that told us just how the Government will go about preserving not only the substance of independence of the judiciary but also the appearance of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that we need to know that someone has given that some thought. There is no evidence in any document available to New Zealanders that it has even been thought material. For example, will the judges be able to have enough authority to discipline, or to appoint and change, court registrars? Will the judges have any control over court records and the integrity with which they are kept? Will the judges be able to dictate, as they should, the systems that will maintain confidentiality of papers and records that they believe ought to be maintained in confidence? Will the judges be able to ensure that the treatment of witnesses is consistent with respect for justice that is unbiased and not influenced in the direction of the executive and the wishes of the Government of the time? None of this has been addressed in anything that this Government has stated or explained about this merger.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EUnder the theory that set up the Ministry of Justice as a policy ministry, separated out the operational arms, and set up the Department for Courts, the courts were recognised as having a particular constitutional sensitivity. All of that sensitivity at the time that the department was set up has just been ignored, and, as far as I can tell, the Supplementary Order Paper is seen as the only thing that the Government needs to do to set this off\u2014a Supplementary Order Paper that simply adds the merger of the Department for Courts to provisions that previously referred to a merger of two departments of social work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3503fc318e64aedb94106cab0b6f37c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3503fc318e64aedb94106cab0b6f37c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002237dbe2d2febd45a2bb31847b5aa1f3c8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000421\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 107 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002288f63d61200e4cc99bd146c675e3796a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224f6ec2e3040840e981733b3d0d865ce2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6ff66e005b445eca03d182c45c86891\u0022\u003ESchedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u002208d7847c5f924280b70cff41af7977c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208d7847c5f924280b70cff41af7977c7\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak to Part 2 of schedule 2 in Supplementary Order Paper 107. I am getting a little confused between the Supplementary Order Paper and the bill, because one has overtaken the other. But I guess what it does is exemplify the fact that we have not had the opportunity to have this bill go through the proper process of a select committee, to allow the public to make submissions on it. By so doing, the public can throw up all the concerns, the anomalies, and the discrepancies that so clearly exist within this bill. I think that is a shame. It is an indictment on this Minister, and an indictment on this current Labour Government, that it can put up something that is so ill-conceived and is such a transgression of justice upon the public service sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI reiterate the concerns that we have already expressed with regard to the legislative change guidelines on process and content. Clearly they have been ignored. I think it is shameful that this substantial amendment is not being referred back to the select committee. Perhaps the Minister would like to take a call and explain to me and to everybody else, and to the New Zealand public, why no one is being given an opportunity to debate this process further, to debate this bill further, and to have a lot of the questions answered that have been raised here today. Some of the substantive questions come\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224169d7f3e49440b192479a868f1848a4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just bring the member back to the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022362b9b5c4a1a40df94e00066dfe68845\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! These are the very schedules that we have had no chance to debate and to look at through the select committee process and the receiving of submissions. Where is the commentary that should be addressing the concerns raised by these very matters? There has not been any chance for questions to be answered about the substance of this Supplementary Order Paper, the concerns that have been raised about it and about matters contained within the schedules, and for commentary to be made about the substantial concerns that have been raised. These concerns are from none other than the New Zealand Law Society, as my learned colleagues and I myself raised earlier. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EStephen Franks from the ACT party has raised some considerable concern about the merger of the Department for Courts with the Ministry of Justice, particularly in relation to privacy provisions. Who is going to answer the questions he raises? Will this bill go back to the select committee so that some consideration can be given to these concerns? No, that does not appear to be going to happen. This Minister does not want to hear what those concerns are, and does not want any response as to how those concerns are being addressed and being provided for within this bill, and whether the bill is justified. He wants to ignore the process of transparency and the accountability of any changes to the State sector having to come through this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThis Parliament is for the public of New Zealand. It is for the people of New Zealand. It is for them to look at and see the efficacy of any changes in the State sector that any Government is going to undertake. We fully support that happening. We fully support that the public can hold this Parliament to account for the State sector and any changes within it. But clearly this Government does not support that. It wants to do everything behind closed doors. It wants to be able to make any changes it wants, without being accountable to the public. That is the whole point of requiring the process through Parliament for any changes in the State sector, and that is the point of accountability. This Government thinks it is so crash-hot on that point, yet it is not. It will deny the public\u2014the people of New Zealand\u2014the opportunity to make it accountable. It is no less evident in question time in the House, which is an absolute disgrace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe would like the Minister to take a call on the schedules and answer the very real and pertinent concerns that have been raised by Stephen Franks about the Department for Courts being included in the Ministry of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002259ec92b0b76d489db432e92ac0c099e1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259ec92b0b76d489db432e92ac0c099e1\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I have come down to the Chamber to speak to the schedules of the State Sector Amendment Bill in particular, and to Supplementary Order Paper 107 dated Wednesday, 23 July, which is yesterday, of course. What the Supplementary Order Paper purports to do is to transfer the Department for Courts to the Ministry of Justice. That is a very, very significant change. This is almost a constitutional bill, yet we are making this change in a Supplementary Order Paper that is not only not going to a select committee, but cannot have been studied by any MP. I say to the Minister that he has a duty to the Committee to explain what the effects of the schedules will be. I am quite prepared to accept that it may well be that the Department for Courts has not been a success, but if that is so, what is the evidence? Where is the evidence that transferring the department to the Ministry of Justice will overcome whatever the problems were? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI do not know whether the Minister is aware of this fact, but I am told by my friends in the legal profession that registrars in the Department for Courts now have extraordinary powers, and if they take a dislike to a lawyer, they can make his or her life an absolute misery\u2014failing to call a case until the end of the day, and putting clients through all sorts of agony. There is no point complaining to the judge because this Government and the previous Government have not allowed the judges to run the courts. How will the Ministry of Justice handle that any better? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EEvery time the Ministry of Justice starts to ask if things are being run right, we can see the separation of powers being cited. I would like the Minister in the chair, the Hon Trevor Mallard, to tell us whether any consideration was given to allowing judges to be responsible for their own courts. They are intelligent men and women. They are smart enough to interpret this law. Why are they not smart enough to run their own courts? That would seem to me to be a genuine separation of powers. All those issues must have been considered\u2014I have to give the Minister that benefit of the doubt\u2014so why can he not share them with us? That is what the Committee stage is for. If the Minister will not allow the legislation to go to a select committee or the public to make submissions, we, as members of Parliament, are entitled to ask him whether those questions were considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhen these schedules were done, what were the arguments? Where is the justification for this Government suddenly to change one whole section of the constitution of the courts\u2014the whole way they have been administered\u2014with 24 hours\u2019 notice? Where is the confidence that anyone will have in how this Government is handling the rule of law in our courts, when it is prepared to make a radical change of this nature with 24 hours\u2019 notice? So far, the Minister has not spoken to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022172e86005ecf4a57a7b4e089804c63f1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: It was announced on 16 May.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234ff9f05dda94afc8ca298f80a57b7c6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says that it is OK, he made a press statement on 16 May and therefore he does not have to explain anything to Parliament. The way this Government does things is to issue a press statement and treat this House like a rubber stamp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ab47b851c534c1c953906fd0f42b565\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What about the select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3ecd200c4347f8b3b518dbebb73679\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: How can the select committee look at a Supplementary Order Paper that was tabled yesterday? The Minister is making the point that I am making. What about the select committee, I ask the Minister? Why was the select committee not allowed to look at this Supplementary Order Paper? He is silent now. Apparently, the select committee was supposed to know that a Supplementary Order Paper was to go through the day before we were to debate this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWill the Minister now take a call and explain why the Government is making those changes, because I have looked at the press statement and it does not set out a coherent set of reasons. Was the Department for Courts not working? If it was not working, where is the evidence? If it is to be transferred to the Ministry of Justice, where is the evidence that the Ministry of Justice will be any better? I see Mr Goff coming into the Chamber. I hope he will make a contribution, because I am genuinely interested. Any MP should be genuinely interested in our courts. It has to be in the interests of the whole country to have a good, well-functioning courts system. Did the judges ask for this change? In fact, what is wrong with my idea of letting the judges run the courts themselves? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u00228cb2c77ed058441bbf2f2822d25e33f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cb2c77ed058441bbf2f2822d25e33f0\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to follow on from the points raised by the Hon Richard Prebble. The schedules of the State Sector Amendment Bill and Supplementary Order Paper 107 are all about doing away with the Department for Courts. We have a Minister for Courts and a Minister of Justice. Which of those Ministers is losing his job? Maybe it should be both of them. Certainly, the Department for Courts is losing its job. What is happening with the chief executive? Which chief executive is losing a job? Who will be subject to a payout? There certainly will not be a simple technical redundancy. What we are looking at here is a Government that rides roughshod over the justice system, and has no faith in it or in any sort of due process as required by law and by our constitution. I am shocked that the United Future party, which I think has come out against some of the actions of the Government over the Privy Council\u2014it is certainly still considering its position\u2014is supporting this bill, yet its members cannot tell us why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022954383cea72b49088d39594213f3aec0\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: What do they know that we don\u2019t know?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022948fac7c92ed426ca5aa05467dcbbcc0\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: One wonders what they know that we do not know. What they do know is how to have their tummies rubbed and scratched, and that is not acceptable. This Parliament should have been able to debate properly what is happening with the Department for Courts and the Ministry of Justice. The select committee should have been able to debate properly what is happening with the Department for Courts and the Ministry of Justice. Certainly the public, the Law Society, and the submitters who would normally come to select committee hearings should have been able to make submissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E What about the people who actually use the courts\u2014the lawyers who work in the courts, day in, day out? Why are they being stopped from giving submissions on this bill and the schedules to it? When we look at the schedules we can see that they are very substantial, and that many significant changes are being brought about to many different parts of our law. The changes are being rammed through without consultation, without any public submissions, without notice, and without any regard to this Parliament. It is not as though the Supplementary Order Paper has been sitting around for years, as the bill has. No way! It was pushed into the Chamber yesterday. The Minister tried to hide it amongst everything else. He constantly tried to hide the truth from us all. He is pushing the bill through in Committee. Who knows what else the Government will be pushing through? Who has gone through all the substantial amendments in the schedules to check that they are all right? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOne of the good things with the select committee process is that all the people on the select committee and all the staff look for any errors or problems, so that we do not have to come back with yet another catch-up bill to try to fix all the problems that have inadvertently been a result of the changes brought about. That is what we are talking about in the schedules. We are omitting from columns the items \u201COffender identity\u201D and \u201CPolice temporary file index\u201D. The schedules do all those sorts of things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI want to know from this Minister when he will take a call and explain how the changes in Schedule 3 will affect the other bills and the law we currently have in New Zealand. I would like to hear from him why he is so dismissive of the people of New Zealand that he will not allow them to make submissions on this Supplementary Order Paper. Why is he so dismissive of it? I ask United Future members, who always say they will never look at any amendment that it does not have at least 2 days\u2019 notice of, to explain this Supplementary Order Paper. It has been sitting around for only 1 day. What about that? Did United Future members give it proper consultation? Did the Green Party members sit there and say: \u201CLet\u2019s have a real close look at this. Let\u2019s see what the issues are.\u201D? No. The reason is that this Government just bullies its little partners in Government. It does not consult them properly or consider them. It certainly does not consider the people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef8ea5e8b631485dbe2a6920d6ade35a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef8ea5e8b631485dbe2a6920d6ade35a\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022870812bff2d6403d9ab90432df788086\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022870812bff2d6403d9ab90432df788086\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E Throughout this debate in the Committee stage I have pointed out\u2014and I am still waiting for the Minister to take a call\u2014the way this Government makes a habit, by way of regulation through the executive and by Order in Council, of allowing legislation to pass without the scrutiny of this Parliament. I said that it was an abuse of the system, and I said that it was about politicisation, because that is exactly what will happen. I refer back to the warning that was given by the Regulations Review Committee, and I will read it again because that was the warning it passed on. But this Government has taken absolutely no notice, and that is now reflected in the schedules, which we see have expanded. The schedule in the bill started on page 11, went to page 13, and was two foolscap pages long, but when we look at page 9 of the new Supplementary Order Paper, we see a schedule 2 added on top of that, which talks about \u201CConsequential amendments to enactments arising out of the abolition of Department for Courts.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThat is what the Hon Richard Prebble and Judith Collins have been talking about, but what did the Regulations Review Committee say? It said: \u201CThe amendments will allow an Act of Parliament to be amended by regulation. It is therefore important to consider whether there are significantly strong reasons why this is a matter that should be dealt with in regulations rather than primary legislation.\u201D That is the point that I keep making to this Parliament. It is the same point and an important point, because transparency and the opportunity for people to have a say are taken away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe schedules that are now in the Supplementary Order Paper have a schedule 2 that was not in the bill, which had only one schedule. We now have a schedule that talks about the District Courts and the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act. We have a Part 1 that breaks down further; we have a Part 2 that talks about regulations. Then there is a schedule 3. Where was schedule 3 in the bill? There was no schedule 3 in the bill. Where was that very short window of opportunity that we had in the select committee? At that stage, the bill was rushed through. Submitters had only 9 days to consider the bill, and there is absolutely no opportunity now for anybody to have a say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI have asked the Minister\u2014and I am asking the Minister again\u2014how he can now justify bringing in schedules that there has been absolutely no opportunity to debate, criticise, scrutinise, or whatever. Not one Government member has been prepared to stand up in this Chamber today, because this is the way they operate. It is all done by regulation, and to hell with anybody else! Where is the democracy in that? Where is the opportunity for Joe Bloggs to come in and say anything? We now have a schedule No. 3 that talks about the \u201CConsequential amendments to Fifth Schedule of Privacy Act 1993 arising out of abolition of Department for Courts\u201D. Where has there been any opportunity for people to have an input? There has been no consultation. No one knows anything about this provision. People are hearing about it for the first time today. This Supplementary Order Paper is longer than the original bill, and there is more material in it than there was in the original bill. We did not support the bill, and we are certainly not supporting a Supplementary Order Paper that people have not had a chance to have an input into. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI have referred to submissions made by the Law Society, and I bet the society did not know about this Supplementary Order Paper, because we did not know about it either until we actually got here. I know that the president of the Law Society will be pretty upset to know that this measure has been rushed through without the society having any opportunity to make a contribution. This legislation is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7e5b807e6ca4eeb8811cdb73d3f1461\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7e5b807e6ca4eeb8811cdb73d3f1461\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec6f57800f4146feb46a83945c35606f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec6f57800f4146feb46a83945c35606f\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I had come down to speak on the next bill, which is in my particular field, but I have been listening to my colleagues, and I have been made aware of an appalling process. Through a process of virtual secrecy a whole Government department is being abolished. The Department for Courts ceases to exist. Was there any consultation on that through a select committee process? No, there was not. The whole reason for the separation between the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Courts was to separate policy and operations. Surely, there needed to be consultation with the profession on such a significant constitutional issue, and not just a quiet word, saying, \u201CThis is what we\u2019re going to do; what do you think?\u201D There needed to be a public process before a select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI have been listening to my colleagues, and I have found out that this Supplementary Order Paper, which has major consequences not just for the administration of the public service, but for the justice system itself, was laid on the Table just yesterday. Surely, we should have more respect for such things than just to ram this legislation through. There is an argument that the Government could mount to amalgamate the two departments, but the right way to do that is to have a dialogue\u2014to talk to the judges and the Law Society, and consult the public to find out what people think. After all, there is no need to go through with a policy process of change without that, because what it invites is a very real suspicion on this side of the House that the Government is simply uninterested in the views of the public, especially on something so profound as bringing the courts back into the Ministry of Justice. It invites speculation that the Government has ulterior motives, and that it wants a greater level of direction and control over the independent judiciary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EJust think of the process that is occurring: the existence of the Supreme Court has been established, and now we have this amalgamation. What other plans are afoot? Secret plans are being raised by the Government right now in relation to our courts. Who will it appoint to the Court of Appeal? Who will it appoint to the High Court? What is the purpose of this secrecy? Not a single member of the Government has stood and defended this action, and explained the reasons for it. Not a single member of the Government has gone out of his or her way to allay the very genuine fears of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhen one thinks about it, one sees that it would be quite simple to do that. The Minister could have got up and said: \u201CThese are the reasons we are doing it. This is who we have consulted. This is why we are doing it through this process.\u201D That is the very minimum of respect that this House was owed, and, more important still, that is what the public of New Zealand are owed. They should be reasonably able to expect that on issues of this nature\u2014particularly those that involve the constitutional issue of the separation of powers\u2014the Government would have proper respect for consultation and constitutional propriety, and that it would allay the concerns I have raised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to get on his feet and say that there are no plans to interfere in the judiciary, because he is now required to do that. One cannot put a Supplementary Order Paper into this Parliament with 1 day\u2019s notice and then not explain oneself. That is what the Opposition is asking for. What effectively happens is that the Committee of the whole House is treated as a substitute for the select committee process. It is now our only chance to raise these serious questions, and when we do raise them, it is reasonable for Ministers to get on their feet and explain themselves fully, completely, and properly. But there has been virtually none of that\u2014we have had just a few minutes\u2019 explanation at best. This is a shonky procedure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e5cc2ac5f2f41cd91707d94b14e90b6\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: The member has only just come to the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235beb1bfb6224a429b9b47a7c20d366e\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: It is all very well for the senior Government whip to witter on and say: \u201CWell, he did that hours ago.\u201D Did the public know that? No. Did the Law Society know that? No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00224a19ee51c85b41d68561c31e93406a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a19ee51c85b41d68561c31e93406a4c\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb1864bf3dd443beb0e2f464e039e271\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb1864bf3dd443beb0e2f464e039e271\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E We are now involved in a very regrettable procedure, because we are seeing a Government department being abolished, which is always a serious matter. But in this particular case, the affected department is the Department for Courts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f964a51475704a8f9e5860852f1bf444\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Abolish them all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231dda9b13a694e96b750ed2ed1cab010\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The United Future member has just said, \u201CAbolish them all.\u201D I am obliged to Mr Copeland, because he made an interjection when he was asked whether the United Future party had been briefed on this legislation, and said yes it had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI am prepared to accept that Mr Copeland has been briefed, but he has a duty to this Parliament, as well. He has heard senior members of this Committee say that we are very interested in the constitution and the courts. We have asked the Minister for an explanation. The Minister has not given us one, so I now ask Mr Copeland to give us one. I ask him to please take a call. He should just get up and convince me, the Committee, his own supporters\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb8899def2164d9fa39b4f5af52cde1e\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t think I could convince the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59d6c15f3b4403c9c722ccbbc7d64aa\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member says he does not think he could convince me, and maybe he could not. But if he is silent, I then ask him how the United Future party is lifting the tone of Parliament and contributing to public discussion, when it is quite prepared to be secretly briefed, and is then not willing to participate in the process. When Gordon Copeland thought he would be a member of Parliament, was that what he had in mind\u2014that he wanted a secret briefing that was not given to any other MP, that he would smugly call out by interjection that he had been briefed on what the bill was about, and that when he was asked politely to take a call, he would sit in his seat?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d9e1f75150e4319a257f7fc9bb3a9f0\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I have politely answered the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b628fa133d1941c49392caba89a3f02d\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, will the member take a call? He is very silent now. I think he will not take a call. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI do not believe the member has been briefed. I do not think the United Future party has seriously considered this bill in any way, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dda0eabb23944eda8a3b7153d94175f\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is a convention in this Chamber to accept the word of a member. Mr Prebble has mentioned that I have said that we were briefed. Now he doubts my word. That is unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249004b6a152f4f0aaa24a6df2dde6cc5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299f78d786f9e4defa4474e2abc2d201f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that really is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e82403d4f3c74537a55a712b93113f27\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am obliged to you, Madam Chair. It is a debating point, and I invite the member to debate it. I invite him to show me that the United Future party is not the doormat that most of us think it is. I invite him to say that the United Future party is contributing to public discussion, and that it is doing something to justify its existence here in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIf my words do not move Mr Copeland, perhaps he may note the 1.9 percent that the United Future party is sitting on in the public opinion polls. That may be something to do with the fact that Mr Copeland is silent when he is politely asked to contribute, by please telling us why he has agreed to the abolition of the Department for Courts, why he thinks it is appropriate that that does not go through a select committee process, why he does not think members of the public should know about that, and why he does not think the Minister should get up and explain that to Parliament and the country. We would all like to know the explanation for that. The member says he was briefed, so no doubt he was briefed as to why the Government did not think it was necessary to explain to Parliament or the public why it is to abolish the Department for Courts by means of Supplementary Order Paper 107, which has been introduced 24 hours before the third reading of this bill. Now Mr Copeland tells me that I have to accept his word that he was briefed, knew the Government would do that, and agreed with it. I ask Mr Copeland why he did so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ESince the Minister of Justice has wandered into the Chamber, I say it may be a good idea for him to tell us why the Department for Courts is to be abolished. I presume Mr Goff does know the reason for that. Would he like to share it with us? It would only take 5 minutes of his time. It would be an indication that this Government is not treating the Committee with the contempt that I think that it is. I just say to Mr Goff and the Government that yes, the Government has the numbers\u2014the United Future Party will vote for it\u2014but that is still not a moral reason for putting through a bill of this sort, without explaining it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWe understand that the Minister of State Services, Mr Mallard, is in charge of this bill. We know he does not actually know about the courts; he would not have a clue about them. We realise that it is just one of the conventions that he is responsible for the bill, because he is the Minister. But I presume that Mr Goff does have an idea about the merger. I presume the Minister of Justice knows why the Department for Courts is being abolished and will merge with the Ministry of Justice. I presume he can tell us the good reason he thought up for that. I ask Mr Goff to share it with us. He should get up, give us just 5 minutes of his valuable time, and be a parliamentarian. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI also put it to Mr Copeland from the United Future party, who tells us he was briefed on this legislation\u2014he agrees with this outrageous procedure, which is a constitutional outrage\u2014that he should tell us why the United Future party think this merger is a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fda4a05211c44078a5470c447178fbc4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fda4a05211c44078a5470c447178fbc4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Police):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e144007317a24d6fa2ce52a79f5b1171\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000478\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 107 in the name of the Hon Trevor Mallard to the schedules be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bc7242c05c6b44fda7bbaf6990ad50f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000479\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the schedules as amended stand part.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002225d80c5449314f939680c31df9f16bc4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedules as amended stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedules as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000480\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224952ca37b5a449f7bd67cf7b0fb95bf4\u0022\u003EDiplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022de21cb34470142a4a082df9b4bdccc08\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227e1bf7f7ba1141c7834657538415fdf7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e1bf7f7ba1141c7834657538415fdf7\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Amendment Bill be now read a first time. I propose that this bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. This bill implements the agreement on the privileges and immunities of the International Criminal Court. It will allow orders to be made under the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Act similar to those that already exist for other bodies such as the International Court of Justice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe International Criminal Court was recently established as a permanent court in The Hague under the 1998 Rome Statute. The International Criminal Court has jurisdiction over individuals who commit genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. New Zealand has long supported the creation of an International Criminal Court. Over the last century there have been, regrettably, plenty of examples of perpetrators of these grave international crimes who have escaped responsibility. The ultimate aim, of course, is to prevent these crimes from being committed in the first place, but, in the event that they do occur, an advantage of a permanent court is that it will have the expertise, the personnel, and the resources to respond quickly. Time will often be of the essence in collecting and preserving evidence. That is important if there is to be justice for the victims.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EJust over a year ago the Rome Statute came into force following ratification by the minimum 60 countries, including New Zealand. Now there are 90 parties, and others are advancing their ratification processes. In the last few months the International Criminal Court\u2019s key office holders have been elected\u2014the 18 judges, the prosecutor, who is also responsible for investigations, and the registrar. Following the recruitment of specialist staff, the court should soon be fully operational.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESetting up a new international court is a lengthy and complex process. After the adoption of the Rome Statute in 1998, a preparatory commission was established to work on the various issues that needed to be settled before the International Criminal Court could begin operation. One of the documents negotiated in the preparatory commission process was the agreement on privileges and immunities. It was contemplated by article 42 of the statute, but the issues were too technical to resolve at Rome. Although the International Criminal Court is based in The Hague, its staff will be involved in investigations elsewhere. The court itself is also able to sit away from The Hague as is necessary. The agreement therefore sets out in detail the various protections that the International Criminal Court, its judges, staff, and others involved in investigations or court proceedings, enjoy while in the territory of a State party on official business. It also deals with the situation where the assembly of State parties meets outside the host country. The agreement was adopted by the assembly of State parties last year. New Zealand has since signed the agreement, and will be able to ratify it once this bill is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe International Crimes and International Criminal Court Act 2000, which implemented the Rome Statute, also amended the Diplomatic Privileges and Immunities Act 1968. However, to give full effect to this agreement, which was negotiated after the International Crimes and International Criminal Court Act was passed, a further amendment is needed. This bill therefore adds two new sections to the 1968 Act to enable Orders in Council to be made in four situations. First, an order may confer certain privileges and immunities on the International Criminal Court itself should it sit in New Zealand at some point in the future. These include protecting the premises where the court sits. Second, an order may confer certain protections, similar to those given to foreign diplomats, on International Criminal Court judges and staff who are in New Zealand on official business. Third, an order may confer a more limited range of protections on others involved in International Criminal Court proceedings\u2014for example, witnesses. Finally, an order can confer certain protections on persons attending any meetings of the assembly of States parties, or its subsidiary organs, in New Zealand. Like the agreement itself, the orders will make it clear that these protections are given in the interests of ensuring the effective functioning of the International Criminal Court or assembly. They will not be for the personal benefit of the individuals concerned, and can be waived.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also amends section 11 of the Immigration Act. That section currently exempts persons to whom orders under the 1968 Act relate from holding permits. The agreement itself does not require a complete exemption; rather, it envisages that, although exempt from the ordinary immigration restrictions, certain groups, like witnesses, might still require some sort of permit. The obligation is then to issue them speedily and without charge. The proposed amendment makes the existing provision subject to this qualification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe situation in which the protections in the bill are most likely to be invoked is where International Criminal Court staff come to New Zealand to interview potential witnesses. Now that the International Criminal Court is poised to begin its operations, it is important that State parties like New Zealand play their part in ensuring that the court, its judges, and staff have the protections they need to do their job effectively and independently. As this bill signals, New Zealand will continue to support the International Criminal Court in its formative years, in the hope and the expectation that it will fulfil its potential as one of the pre-eminent institutions of international justice. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002232017157cbad48a58b381d1556d0dae7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232017157cbad48a58b381d1556d0dae7\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E The explanations given by the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade were full, and they gave us a good understanding of what the bill is about. It is rather a pity that, just a few minutes ago, he did not take the opportunity to give much the same kind of explanation about the merger of the Department for Courts with the Ministry of Justice. Such an explanation is not an unreasonable request, it would seem, but did he take that opportunity? After all, we do presume he knows something about the matter. However, we were denied the opportunity of that explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI appreciate, Mr Speaker, that you are probably of the view that I should focus on the bill before us rather than on the one that preceded it. National supported the establishment of the International Criminal Court, and we did so for very good reasons. I know there are parties in this House that did not give such support\u2014notably, New Zealand First and ACT. They explained that they feared that such a court would go beyond a reasonable level of jurisdiction. It did not seem that they were necessarily opposed to it in principle, but, rather, that they felt the jurisdiction was wider than was necessary to cover crimes of genocide and matters of that nature.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would ask them to reconsider their point of view in relation to this bill. The reason is that if we look back over a century or more of international lawmaking, we see that ad hoc tribunals have been established to deal with particular issues\u2014they could be limitation issues, or various claims or tribunals, or disputes between particular States. That process has gone on for centuries. Its limitations were appreciated a century ago, and that led to the establishment of a general court of competence, the International Court of Justice, to deal with disputes between States. No country in the world today would say that was not a good thing. The merits of international law and the peaceful resolution of disputes through courts were advanced by that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn many ways, the International Criminal Court is an advance on that, because not only does it provide jurisdiction between States but also it brings individuals who are guilty of the very worst crimes\u2014and maybe there is a point to be made about the precise drafting\u2014before a recognised international court. That is a far more effective and reliable system than having ad hoc tribunals, such as those established following events in Kosovo and Bosnia, and, most notably, the Nuremburg Tribunal. What this court does is gather up the ideas that motivated those various ad hoc tribunals, and that established some fundamental principles of human rights law, to provide a court that will punish and bring to justice those people guilty of the very worst crimes imaginable\u2014those that are a fundamental affront to human rights and dignity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would ask all the parties in this Parliament today to reconsider their vote, effectively, through the agency of this bill. There are two reasons for that. The first is that general principle. The second is the fact that the court now exists. It is established. It does have its 18 judges and it does have a secretariat. It will commence its business. Surely we as a country cannot be in a position whereby, based on a vote of a year or so ago, we would now deny the rights and privileges of diplomatic immunity to the court\u2019s judges, staff, and so forth. Whatever argument existed a year ago, I believe that time has moved on, and I would like to think that, at the very minimum, all parties in this Parliament would vote unanimously to send this bill to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E One might think I am overstressing that point, but there is a reason for it. I believe that the establishment of the International Criminal Court was one of the great cardinal points in the development of international law. New Zealand\u2014the nation\u2014is now a party to that court. It behoves the entire Parliament to recognise those obligations. Even if people state their particular concerns, the obligation is now incumbent on the New Zealand Government and, in fact, the people of New Zealand to enable that court to be effective and to implement justice in the worst cases of human abuse. The Minister is right; most often because of the mobility of people, because of the way that these criminals try to escape justice in the place where the crime occurred, there will be witnesses\u2014there could even be defendants\u2014in this country whom the officials, the prosecutors, will wish to visit. Surely we would not want to say: \u201CNo, you can\u2019t have the appropriate immunities.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis is one of those rare issues, but they do come up from time to time, where I believe our Parliament would be sending a strong message about our fundamental beliefs around human rights, and around the protection of the rights of people to live their lives in liberty, in today supporting this bill at least going to a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00222d5adbde1df4472dbf12cd5e2613540b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d5adbde1df4472dbf12cd5e2613540b\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I commend the member who has just resumed his seat for a very cogent argument in favour of both this bill and also the International Criminal Court. I simply observe, in addition to what Dr Mapp has said, that at this time when there is, for instance, a minor dispute between the United States and the United Kingdom over the trial of people detained in the aftermath of the war on terrorism, that the role of the International Criminal Court probably assumes a greater significance. The rather bizarre procedure whereby American citizens or American detainees who are tried by the military courts that the United States is proposing to establish may well render themselves liable for the death penalty\u2014and there has been some agreement that British citizens will not be liable\u2014demonstrates the need for an impartial international court to deal with these types of instances. I think the examples the member drew attention to, going right back to Nuremburg, underline the point that unless there is a properly established and constituted international court of justice in place, with very clear boundaries to its work, there is a very grave risk that justice is in effect being meted out by the victors, and sometimes within that there is the implication that justice is more about vengeance than about true justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI think the International Criminal Court is a way of getting us beyond that sense of feeling. But for the court to work effectively it needs to have the sanction of the nations that support it and the ability of those nations to enable it to carry out its operations in an unfettered way. That is where this bill becomes relevant. It is a relatively small piece of legislation. In fact, I am disappointed that there was not the agreement that would have seen this passed last year, by way of a Statutes Amendment Bill. I think it could have been dealt with much more neatly and tidily in that environment, rather than now being in the situation where it will be treated in the normal way as a full bill by this House, sent to a select committee, submissions invited upon it\u2014they will be few and far between, and extremely arcane\u2014and then we will report it back to the House in due course and send it on its way. It seems to me that that is maybe one way of serving the needs of democracy but is utterly pointless otherwise, given what this bill seeks to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ENew Zealand, as has been pointed out by the support of both the major parties and most parties in this House, has supported the establishment of the International Criminal Court, and has pledged its support for the work that court could do. Therefore it is only logical that these technical amendments, to extend certain diplomatic privileges and immunities to the officers of the court in the event that they should ever be in New Zealand on court business, are entirely and utterly appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI do not want to say any more than that, other than to wish this bill good luck as it begins its journey and hope it is not too long before we are back here passing the bill through its final stages and getting it into law, so that New Zealand\u2019s contribution to the work of the court, once it is up and running, can be shown to have some demonstrable worth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022dba23b046ff2412ba260f50701c80e02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dba23b046ff2412ba260f50701c80e02\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take into account the speeches that have already been made today. I note the comments made by Dr Mapp about New Zealand First\u2019s approach to the earlier bill, which I believe is now the International Crimes and International Criminal Court Act, and New Zealand First\u2019s attitude to that. This bill is really just minor legislation, which could almost have made its way through the Statues Amendment Bill, if it had not been for opposition by some party. It is a nuts and bolts matter, and at this stage New Zealand First will give cautious support to the bill going to the select committee, and we will take the matter from there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMention has been made of the Nuremburg tribunal, and, as a lawyer, I happened to notice in the last week or so the obituary of Sir Hartley Shawcross. Perhaps in the context of this bill one could keep that historical point in mind. But from that early beginning we are moving on to further things. New Zealand First will look at this matter closely in the select committee and speak to it again in the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002299616e457e8e47329aebe35eea043b17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299616e457e8e47329aebe35eea043b17\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill. It is important that the International Criminal Court\u2014a very important international institution that other speakers have mentioned\u2014is able to function freely, without any restraints on the judges, witnesses, and others who are granted immunity under the provisions of this bill. It is important that the international community and New Zealand does advocate that there are no restraints whatsoever on the functioning of the International Criminal Court. Unfortunately, one nation\u2014the most powerful in the world\u2014is restraining the functioning of this International Criminal Court very substantially. Of course that country is the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EPeter Dunne referred to the problems with the application of justice by the United States, and, unfortunately, it is not putting itself under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. It has not signed or ratified the Rome treaty, but even worse it is going around the world trying to force other Governments to sign up to agreements with the United States so that United States citizens, members of the United States armed forces, are not under the jurisdiction of the court, and that those countries agree not to cooperate fully with the International Criminal Court in terms of the prosecution of such United States citizens, even when they are deemed to have offended the provisions of the court in relation to such things as crimes against humanity or war crimes. They will not be brought to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is unfortunate that under the provisions of this bill we will see judges coming in to try cases, and having the immunity to try those cases free of interference. There will be the witnesses, and all those other people who are given immunity under this bill. But in several countries, not New Zealand, the defendant\u2014if he or she is a United States citizen\u2014may not show up because of the article 98 agreements that the United States Government is signing with these particular countries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt may be said: \u201COh, well, we don\u2019t really need to worry about the United States; it is just asserting its sovereignty, and any offenders against human rights, crimes against humanity, war crimes, etc. will be taken back to the United States and tried effectively under the jurisdiction of the United States.\u201D But, unfortunately, this will not necessarily be the case. Even today, Amnesty International has put out something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20030724645f17337ab94d9da7b86da52027c560000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"