"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c0edd37ac2054cc58b54142ea6af5f9a\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e38a3be8bbb44e1a5df28bc8098ee7a\u0022\u003ETuesday, 2 September 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228dd1347131014885a979d812b2200fd8\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022038f0708a8534b878d2935b71052f923\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f24d24477a83426c85e933936413a3ca\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Sweetcorn\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242c4b7038389447185a47531aba46673\u0022\u003E1. Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Has she seen the 17 July 2002 memo from Ruth Wilkie to Dr Mark Prebble regarding his decision to withhold from public release notes to the Prime Minister on the management of potentially contaminated corn seed, and in which Ms Wilkie states that \u201CMary Anne Thompson reported to you and me that the PM was prepared to have these notes released if necessary\u201D; if so, did she have a meeting or discussion which would have led Mary Anne Thompson to make such a report?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002287832df759384196b85aaf625e48528e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287832df759384196b85aaf625e48528e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have seen the memo. Dr Thompson has confirmed that no such meeting or discussion with me took place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b210de894461411084531ff4c4cac1cb\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister\u2019s chief of staff, Heather Simpson, or chief press secretary, Mike Munro, have any knowledge of which papers were released and which papers were held back, and did they discuss this knowledge with her, given that they had played a key role in managing the outcome of the TV3 interview on \u201Ccorngate\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222414b6dc62bd4d2897568b089e5c3e63\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. At the end of that question there was a \u201Cgiven\u201D that cannot be authenticated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11e53d2bdda413aae450689b26d4a28\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me put it this way. I heard the question. I will ask the Prime Minister to comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61d8fadd7814ea6b09349331c63e940\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that they played no such role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d9b2d3f6474a5f8a38ab01edd338ee\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister give us any reason that an experienced civil servant with the reputation of Ruth Wilkie would make it up and write a memo with no basis in fact whatsoever about a meeting and a discussion that the Prime Minister says never happened?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022113b90e072854c179adeba418c3619ed\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there was no meeting. Why officials wrote the memos they wrote is up to them to explain to others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022435e30b8c6254d4ab33cfed9c185381c\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: At the time of the 17 July memo was the Prime Minister under the impression that all the relevant documentation had been released, given her earlier comments in that respect, and if she was not under that impression, when did she become aware for the first time that the full range of documentation had not been released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603961f92f3e4bdd9ac1d4f99cf10938\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: In the course of the campaign, when this issue arose, I made it clear that I wanted all documentation released. I assumed that that instruction would have been followed. I found out in November it had not been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab14c1b36e55415d8d18c38bdc075621\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to clarify that answer that the Prime Minister has just given to Mr Dunne. Is she asking us to believe that she was not aware that the Ruth Wilkie memo of 17 July\u2014which contradicts the Government\u2019s statements\u2014was not included in the Government dump until November; and even if she does expect us to believe that, why was it not then released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53d00650d014967b2ed1659200aca27\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I am saying is that I had no idea that that department had held back any information until November. My understanding was that memos were then released in response to the request from Mr Price. I have not myself taken a detailed interest in the administration of that, but I have always asked for all the information to be released.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022589153e3d364438a94e6a0c2013ca52b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If the Prime Minister was aware that the threshold test could not be met, why did she nevertheless make assurances that it had been met?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261a789b6ee454a56813aaefc8109fb30\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I was being told in memos was that there was no reliable evidence of contamination, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93607f175894ffb9359192a5a74e503\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that everyone in this matter, apart from the Prime Minister, seems to be telling lies: Mary-Anne Thompson, about a discussion she never had; Ruth Wilkie, about a report that never existed; Mark Prebble, about a decision that he apparently made on his own and that no one else in the Prime Minister\u2019s department or Prime Minister\u2019s office knew anything about; and given the Prime Minister\u2019s track record of evasion in this House, why should we believe everyone else is lying and not her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022800974d302f14b1285ac49a449006bef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Leader of the Opposition cannot suggest that a member of this House is telling a lie. I want him to stand, withdraw\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275307ade5828403f9ef323a90eb34deb\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: For what?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec07d6ec150e484ca3e4b873dc337598\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last part of the question. I want him to stand, withdraw, and apologise if he made that assertion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f106b264f774998b2a6c635a4879fd7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to clarify what you are pointing to as unparliamentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ef270d1be5947b9afd102213793bd92\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last phrase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5b15e2f7af943f58d3e0327d0432fe4\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I said the Prime Minister had a track record of evasion in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226af6e4a07cd84615aab15736398b28e8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said: \u201CThe last phrase.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2408a6b18ca4e4aabde9fb304963cb7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: So that one was OK\u2014the evasion was all right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986ee30a6cf14c938485cb688bda6c1e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was necessary to make that part of the question, but it was not specifically out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d020bf3ea710464ba7cc1260634d3b8c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: OK. So which bit was out of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e2667a0a0d494e869853a3c09367b2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The last bit, which the member knows suggested that she might have been lying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046ac2dc505043259c362b5e3a840611\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Was it when I said that she was accusing everyone else of lying, or just of her lying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d13c6ebd014940b0203f51bbc2ff32\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. A member of this House cannot be accused of lying. He will withdraw and apologise for that comment if he made that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267f32fdde23d40038e354e79ec52dd75\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I am just having a bit of difficulty sorting out which bit is of concern to the House. I think the phrase went something like this\u2014you can correct me if I am wrong\u2014\u201Cgiven the Prime Minister\u2019s track record of evasion in this House, why should we believe everyone else was lying and not her?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269d775225fbc476dac980a2c5d20bded\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Because that is an assumption that she is. I ask the member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251d56014c6634de1a68ffec983d5c5ab\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5e6524c88424ef5b673479a61023ec8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister can answer the rest of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229099f9bd79bd4a8c9a5bfb165d0d1751\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, it is a very simple question. No one is saying that the Prime Minister is lying, but people are simply saying that if everybody else is not lying, then it leaves open a huge vacuum as to what the truth is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211f6633191ef497596c41d504788f57d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have allowed the question. The Prime Minister is going to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1e0f5bcac64cfda3d2b946584b1474\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Prebble has confirmed that he did not tell me of his decision. Ms Thompson is on the public record in the Dominion Post as saying she denied discussing the notes with Miss Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276192f10c1794747abb2ba10d1cab74c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Prime Minister again: if she knew that the threshold test had not been met, why did she go out before and during the election assuring the public of this country, and all and sundry, that in fact there was a threshold that was met and there was no concern, which was the argument she made at the time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d676302e142f44189ac018e60d24c34d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The argument at the time was that there was no reliable evidence of contamination, and that is clearly borne out by officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022056dc593c9f84af187f490c2d44916e0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm her contention that on the single biggest issue of the election campaign neither she nor her chief press secretary, Mike Munro, nor her chief of staff, Heather Simpson, knew anything about what decision had been made by Mark Prebble\u2014a decision that was so bitterly contested in her department that a mid-level civil servant censured their own chief executive for getting it wrong; and why would we believe that no one in the Prime Minister\u2019s office knew anything about any of that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91742493a9b421788e31053ff39b937\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Because they were not told.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8499e241ed64dfd882a75262a2dbdff\u0022\u003EState Housing\u2014Unit Numbers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374c41e6c1fa4013abfbc1ff38f5d9d9\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Housing: How many State houses have been added to the Government\u2019s social housing stock since 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf540036a947461abc54ed8c62a329b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf540036a947461abc54ed8c62a329b6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Housing):\u003C/span\u003E Since 1999 a total of 3,438 State houses have been added to Housing New Zealand Corporation\u2019s social housing portfolio. That restores the total number of State houses to 62,750, and the total number of people housed to 179,000. Income-related rents and State house acquisitions are ensuring that more New Zealand families get decent housing, and represent a major turn-round from the disastrous policies of the 1990s that saw every single house in the questioner\u2019s electorate sold off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229472dc947a484112a6e07d4fefdbbc80\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: How many more State houses are planned over the next 3 to 4 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b9faf3e8c104620baeac1605d5dd84d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Housing New Zealand Corporation plans to add a further 3,400 houses to the social housing stock over the next 4 years, through build, buy, or lease programmes. Of course, it will take some time to recover an appropriate level of social housing, given that 13,000 State houses\u2014more than enough to accommodate the entire waiting list\u2014were sold by the previous National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f3dd74ff1a42ac8fce3b0f029a44a9\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: How many of those State houses already allocated went to immigrant families during the period from 1999; and what is the difference, as a per centum, between the number of those State houses already allocated to immigrant families compared with the number of those to New Zealanders? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e0ef2dd76f141998629b1e774a759de\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am giving only one warning today about interjecting while a question is being asked, and I tell Mr Peters that that one warning has been given. There will be no interjections while a question is being asked\u2014particularly while being asked by a member of his own party. The Minister has the right to answer, and that is the one warning today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea9a95bf0b01405b8c1def1011c299ee\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I respect that warning. However, I hope that it applies to Government Ministers and others over there who are making all sorts of noises as well, in an endeavour to try to deflect a fairly asked question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206727ebce7444dd7abeaea3aac4be458\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It does. The point is well made, and that warning applies to every single member of this House. I have given the one and only warning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f1bdb4f4234f7482c41cc745783062\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Houses are allocated purely on the basis of need, and a very small proportion goes to immigrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe43881df324dfd88c0ca0cebe9af4d\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s response to complaints that the Government\u2019s purchase of 1,800 houses in Auckland last year helped to fuel the rampant house-price inflation, which caused Aucklanders to have to pay higher prices and higher rents while Labour supporters enjoyed nice houses at cheap rents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53bd2b4f9e34872a5a16dbf8163d4e6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: My response is that that is nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab196882392403a9de9a092631762e0\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What other comments has the Minister seen on the subject of the number of State houses required?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdc22156cd65491ea19ce65e8fc3742e\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I recently noted the following comments on State house numbers: \u201CThe only basis on which the current policies could work would be to add a sufficient number of houses to accommodate those on the waiting list\u2014over 11,000 in number.\u201D Ironically, that statement came from a group who sold 13,000 State houses\u2014the previous National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7227e69ea6547d2a5c6419febbd9fc2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I draw your attention to the Minister\u2019s last two answers. An Opposition member asked him whether it was correct that 1,800 State houses had been bought in Auckland, and the Minister said that that was nonsense. I take that to mean that 1,800 houses have not been bought. He was then prepared to give a long statement in answer to what appeared to be a prepared patsy question, in order to attack a previous administration. He is not prepared to answer questions about his own administration, but he is wasting the House\u2019s time in criticisms of a previous administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e529b617cceb417bbc992d5ec0907e7d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If that were correct it might be valid, but the member did not ask just that in her question. There was another question asked and the Minister addressed it with an answer in which he did not agree with the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f515db08eae4dfe9b384b73cc7e5416\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that there are many families who are ineligible for social housing assistance, yet, in line with the recent ASB survey\u2014confirming that rising house prices are forcing first homeowners out of the market\u2014those families have little hope of owning their own homes; if so, does the Government intend doing something further about this issue, or is his ministry concerned only with the housing needs of beneficiaries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244f07b2748fb4b75ba53730974686bfa\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I am concerned about New Zealanders getting into social housing, and that is why I keep raising the fact that 13,000 houses were sold by the previous Government. Yes, the Government is concerned about homeownership, which is why, in this Budget, we have started to re-enter that issue through the mortgage insurance scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b2d8abb7c8a44e69949fa0bf20df63f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How many new immigrants, asylum seekers, and refugees have been given State houses, and what is the cost of that to this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294cd29696bec45f3ad0d98eebc160bea\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have those figures with me, but I am more than happy to pass them to the member if he would like them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210ae6ea18dcd48ae8b065fa26b015a72\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What else is the Government doing to increase the supply of social housing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d818b073a54a4b947d4f3ecaf78fe1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has a large number of programmes under way, as announced in the last Budget, which run from the building of houses throughout the country, and partnerships with local government and a range of community-based organisations, to the leasing of properties from people who are investing their savings in housing and passing them on to tenants. A range of those kinds of policies will result in a real improvement in social housing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022deb4d81b406842658df49489e9135945\u0022\u003EMinisterial Confidence\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a28e8855fdd242c88bc019226cf3dd10\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in each of her Ministers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00225d6050861d2f49f6b66923e79252feae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d6050861d2f49f6b66923e79252feae\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e398bf60b0dc4bfa86fa8e42e5339845\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can she have confidence in a Minister of Immigration and a Minister of Health who have allowed to come into this country, and now to clog up the wards in North Shore and Auckland hospitals, hundreds of people with Third World diseases including tuberculosis cases, where the wards are busting to overflowing\u2014and 70 percent are immigrants\u2014and how can that be a responsible way of defending the health of the New Zealand people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f0e2a26380d4d84afc9d979854ce898\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, there is screening for a disease like tuberculosis. However, it is always possible that some people present false, fraudulent X-rays. I can say to the member that the Government does not tolerate that at all, and, if there is any evidence that people have done such, they will certainly be prosecuted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226faeee42e1b14cf29823b3b80df2ff15\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Prime Minister make that claim when she knows full well that a great number of the Somalis, for example, never had any test given to them in the first place and were let out early, prior to having testing, on the basis that they had to be reunited with their own people? Given that there are hundreds of cases, and that we now have Third World diseases that we thought we had defeated, how is that a responsible way for a Minister of Immigration and a Minister of Health to conduct the affairs of looking after the health of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6dddae93c274e7f9f94cc1bbf3c6f8b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Whether the rules are different for refugees, I do not know. The member should ask that of the Minister of Immigration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b7b463c39e44d1cb85a097791c2f049\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019m asking you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285e63b3defca4cc0a069ea893b0e2f5e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants an answer from me to a detailed question, he should put it on specific notice. What I can say is that TB in this country, unfortunately, has not been restricted to those coming in from other countries in the years of poverty arising from the 1991 changes that appeared in our own community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d5f071179a64f4b9c86ec31ebfcb911\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Prime Minister make that allegation in respect of 1991, yet have no up-to-date information on the current crisis in North Shore and Auckland, or is it like \u201Cpaintergate\u201D\u2014she makes it up as she goes along?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b762054815442eba6e90ea945fe66e5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that TB did appear in our own community in the 1990s when levels of poverty rose. As I said to the member, if he wishes to ask questions about whether there are specific rules for refugees he should put them down. I do not have that information in front of me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b9018833938f4843af3a2534231ef28a\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Television Service\u2014Broadcasting Communications Ltd\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f3abab046d76477aba1644e26b9a95b3\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Broadcasting: Does he expect Broadcasting Communications Limited to remain the broadcast platform for the M\u0101ori Television Service; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00224c3a5bbe828b44e49df5b94fe15ba2b4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c3a5bbe828b44e49df5b94fe15ba2b4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Broadcasting):\u003C/span\u003E As the Minister responsible for Television New Zealand Ltd, which owns BCL Ltd, I am advised that BCL is involved in commercially sensitive negotiations with the M\u0101ori Television Service about the provision of its transmission platform. As the negotiations have not been completed, I cannot comment further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250331f42224449c28e59edc17142b990\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister defend his Government\u2019s continued interference in broadcast platform decisions, when a M\u0101ori Television Service legal opinion states that \u201CGovernment approval is unnecessary, in any event\u201D; and, given that statement, why will the Government not allow the M\u0101ori Television Service to broadcast off the most readily available and cost-efficient platform available to it\u2014that is, Sky Television?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ed91fd41f441c08835fb0b9190a37d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is not continually interfering in this matter. However, I point out that taxpayers\u2019 money is involved and therefore the Government of course has an interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f026fcf5f6af4b23aa25da9ef7f35337\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What is BCL\u2019s expertise in providing transmission platforms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e91ae08e1ba047798ae2e35eec853004\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: BCL\u2019s customers include five national free-to-air networks; a number of community and niche market television broadcasters; New Zealand\u2019s national pay television\u2014UHF network; and national FM radio broadcasters. As well, BCL provides telecommunication services to a wide and diverse range of customers, including New Zealand\u2019s major carriers, Internet service providers, and mobile radio communications networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022176f40f29a52460a9fef6b16e80fd9fa\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not the case that the Minister will insist that the M\u0101ori Television Service uses BCL, rather than use a cheaper service from Sky, so that he can prop up a Government company already facing a $20 million capital gains tax bill, which he forgot about when he demanded that BCL be separated from TVNZ?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be42a10d4bed44408dbda9f1a5bedfa6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: BCL is trading profitably as a company, and I understand it intends to carry on being a successful business. If the member is referring to the so-called $20 million bill that will come from the separation, I have already said in the House that we anticipate paying not one cent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220042e55451614b9b86e9de577f0c641d\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that Ministers are personally able to interfere in what are actually commercial decisions regarding broadcast platforms for the service, yet when we ask fundamental questions about its leadership and recent personnel departures we are told it is \u201Can operational matter for the board\u201D, for which Government Ministers conveniently have no responsibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247de7fe3f8a84653bda3413d7c3ba744\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I have to remind the member that I am the person who is the Minister responsible for Television New Zealand, which owns BCL. Any questions he wants to ask me about this issue have to be about that one, not about the M\u0101ori Television Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ad554c8a0cf4f93be07d564569cc3a2\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Why did a Cabinet committee, on Wednesday, reject a M\u0101ori Television Service \u2013 backed Sky proposal to utilise one of its channels for the service, when such an option would allow the M\u0101ori Television Service to go to air immediately, and more cheaply; or is this just a case of the Government ignoring blatant commercial common sense, so that it can line the pocket of its own transmission company with taxpayers\u2019 cash?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a4d934226e4958bc22e51efb8828c6\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I did not notice the member at the meeting, but I remind him again that I am the Minister responsible for TVNZ and for BCL. I am not responsible for the M\u0101ori Television Service. He needs to ask the people responsible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5c146f82bfa472fb8310065eae5177a\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that $50 million worth of Government time, energy, and resources have been poured into the M\u0101ori Television Service on air\u2014something it still has not achieved\u2014whereas industry experts, such as Jim Cross, estimate that a mere $3 million would shore up regional, local television stations across the entire country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202104ddd29c94e88aad925e9b2907e19\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Those are excellent questions, and they should be put to the appropriate Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc985c34649b4457b976f1033bd667b5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The last answer from the Minister raises a very interesting point. We have a Minister of Broadcasting who is presumably responsible for broadcasting policy, and we have a separate Minister who is responsible for the M\u0101ori Television Service. The difficulty that arises, in terms of submitting questions, is where they actually cut across two boundaries. It is sometimes very difficult to ask a question about the M\u0101ori Television Service that does not impact upon broadcasting policy, and I submit to you that the type of answer the member received from the Minister, saying: \u201CWell, you should be asking my colleague.\u201D, is not exactly satisfactory\u2014given that overlap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d1c4c00ceaa4de7ba002bdccf00a635\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It might not be satisfactory and I might tend to agree with the member, if that were fact. The fact is\u2014as the Clerk has just advised me\u2014he is not the appropriate Minister of which to ask the question. There is a Minister who is responsible. That Minister should be approached.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c889a5ea1ef451ca691a54b64acfba5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the 1\u00BD page document between the United Future party and the Government, in which nothing is covered, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e28d9720dc0e4f71b4ba3215d9ffd954\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002277687a9a60844b459bb13eec60f24fa9\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Sweetcorn\u2014Environment, Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd6c547149de4ed7aa6fd307c32fa58d\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does she stand by her statement of 24 July 2002 that the \u201CGovernment never deviated from its policy of zero tolerance for GM contamination in seed imports.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3f8ef4718064205bce5c4a9eaf319d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3f8ef4718064205bce5c4a9eaf319d6\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233dbc80b3a5e470ea6d64f11ad8bc0d7\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry\u2019s head of biosecurity and the Ministry for the Environment\u2019s head of hazardous substances and new organisms write a briefing paper to her on 24 May 2001 stating: \u201CWe have had to change the policy from December 2000, which was for a defined level of tolerance of GM, because it was not consistent with the legislation\u201D; how could they advise that unless there was a contamination tolerance that broke the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc04084e3174000a05e4a9fd3d82872\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that briefing paper also notes that, back in November 2000, tests on seeds that had come into the country could not confirm that GM seed was present. It also states that Cabinet noted in December 2000 that inspection systems were being developed, and that on 19 December I announced publicly that testing would be put in place to detect the presence of GM seed to the extent possible. The briefing paper shows the Government never deviated from its policy of zero tolerance of contamination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5151994ce4044e5ae34d31e08535580\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government\u2019s policy still one of zero tolerance of GM presence in seed imports?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3166139cf104d5292649faeef13010c\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The Government is very clear about its policy\u2014unlike others in this House\u2014because, contrary to Dr Smith, Dr Hutchison keeps calling for us to introduce a tolerance level for GM seed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af13e43025024bf69713cbc5962a06d0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is not responsible, but I would be happy to seek leave to make a full statement of National\u2019s policy if the House were interested.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229590084a1a394cfe8440d3d306eb4991\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was making a comment, which was a very short one. She finished what she had to say. The next supplementary question can take place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022537814fb1a18441fb89f3ffd3cc70ac5\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister please explain to the House how she continues to claim a zero tolerance policy when two organisations she has responsibility for, the Environmental Risk Management Authority and the MAF Biosecurity Authority, have both signed a memorandum of agreement that clearly states that the certification of imported seed allows for a tolerance of GM contamination of up to 0.5 percent?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e76537e1cc8041988df3764fde628d03\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Without actually looking at that particular quote in front of me, I know that this Government allowed for a 0.5 percent tolerance of uncertainty and a zero tolerance of contamination.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5370178cf9247b1b6a7ce1505137719\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the memorandum of understanding, which might help the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5c90edb9fac4e0b8315754ae8e5d4aa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member could have raised this at the end of the question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c3d549d4690482abd5b755339d58ba0\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister explain the memo from Bas Walker, the Chief Executive Officer of the Environmental Risk Management Authority, on 6 December 2000\u2014the day the decision was made to allow the corn to grow\u2014in which he stated: \u201COur conclusion is that, measured against a contamination tolerance of 0.5 percent, that existing material is acceptable, i.e., it contains, to a high level of probability, less than 0.5 percent contamination. On this basis, there is no case for destroying the grain or the crops. All of this, however, hangs off the acceptability of a 0.5 percent tolerance level. My assumption is that the Cabinet paper being prepared will seek Ministers\u2019 agreement to this.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8f9d6a99eb64b678f196fcd28c0319b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That question was a little long, but I will allow it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200727f14e215440198d1936a0b927d8b\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The Cabinet paper quite clearly says to us that we will have a zero tolerance of contamination. We do accept a tolerance of uncertainty. I repeat again, as I said in the House the other day, one can have 100 percent certainty that there is no contamination only by testing every seed and by destroying every seed. Scientists will not accept any test that says it can guarantee that\u2014that 100 percent tolerance of certainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a06b24123c354afebcffc1d8c649fe15\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Was the Minister ever confused about the difference between a legal tolerance for the presence of GM and the accuracy threshold of scientific tests for the presence of GM; if not, can she explain that difference for the benefit of those who do appear to have the two confused, such as Dr Nick Smith?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc26c5375cae4eb6aecdf281b9422fcd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part of the question is all right. The second is ruled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ac61f2a9414497ca484eb1c4d3bb84f\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: No, I was always clear that the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms Act required zero tolerance of known GM seeds, and to have been otherwise would have required me to change the Act. But I was also clear that there were limits to the testing. Testing could show, down to a level of 0.5 percent, that no GM seed was present. The two tolerances that are being confused throughout this whole hearing\u2014by the authors of the book and by some of the people writing to each other in memos, but never by this Government\u2014is the zero tolerance of contamination that this Government held to, and the 0.5 percent tolerance of uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1eef256266d45688d7fcfdc22bdb96d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister expecting the House to believe that the head of biosecurity in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the head of hazardous substances and new organisms implementation within the Ministry for the Environment had it wrong when they advised her: \u201CThe initial approach by officials in December 2000 was to define a low level of acceptable GM presence. This was not consistent with the HASNO Act, which does not allow any unapproved GM organisms. Our new approach is to reject any consignment that tests positive for presence of GM material.\u201D; and how can that be interpreted in any way other than there was an allowable level of GM contamination?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224552c240c99d4396a6e60ee863d131ca\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: What officials may argue is very different from the policy that the Government followed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239cae2b9e4dd4cf69475f175d7e7053d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Could the Minister consider the memo from Ruth Wilkie to the Prime Minister on 28 May 2001\u2014in which Ms Wilkie said: \u201CThere is a change of approach from that in December last year. Any positive test now will mean that the seed lot will be rejected.\u201D\u2014and tell the House what the change was that was being referred to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be39e9efd04c46fd9598def780a7bff4\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that Ms Wilkie was also confused\u2014and said so in the committee of inquiry\u2014between the notions of tolerance of contamination and tolerance of uncertainty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5299757a85a48318119674c93010c38\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that Dr Basil Walker, who is in charge of the Environmental Risk Management Authority, has said there was an acceptable level of tolerance, noting that Dr Ruth Wilkie, from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, has said there was an acceptable level of contamination, noting that Steve Vaughan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1017122f17e438c8ad1ee579d78ffb9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe261702e7334e02b0dcac64f213d87a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014who is in charge of the hazardous substances and new organisms legislation within the Minister\u2019s own department, has said there was an acceptable level of contamination, as has the head of biosecurity\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dc7770000be414ba4fb179f6b5a963b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have allowed the member to use the word \u201Cnoting\u201D in three examples. I said that the third one was sufficient, and he will now come to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9be987ad7f64c34881189685ed1297d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Are we to believe that the head of the Environmental Risk Management Authority, the Prime Minister\u2019s adviser, and the head of biosecurity in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry have all got it wrong; if so, how can we possibly have any confidence in the systems of biosecurity this country is running if the Minister is the only one with it right?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205258364d32c4ff595e867e4df1519f4\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: There are two points I would like to make. In the member\u2019s preliminary question, before he made a second attempt at the question, he was talking about levels of contamination, levels of tolerance, and levels of something else. Those are the kinds of arguments and the kind of misuse of terms that have been used by officials. The fact that we have clarity in our policy and absolutely zero tolerance in terms of knowingly accepting any genetically modified organism into this country, has not changed since the day the Act was passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ee3d424d014e4f8666803388ea7c38\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If this is the same Minister who told the Local Government and Environment Committee that she had not read the Hager book because she did not want to contaminate her memory, and who admitted that she wrote an article criticising the book\u2014then could not remember whether she had written that article but could remember that she had certainly approved it\u2014how are we to understand the workings of her mind over those minds of obviously qualified officials?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268a02edd6aae47b28e702d11b3f204e5\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hager\u2019s allegations were well canvassed in the media at the time, and I heard them all. Once the facts had been checked, I was easily able to rebut his allegations of a cover-up, because there was no cover-up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ad1aabee1a45ff8c48c2058bd13129\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a briefing paper to the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for Biosecurity on 24 May that refers to the contamination policy as being illegal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c46f73840244470a664f98f738a7b57\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a briefing note to the Prime Minister from Ruth Wilkie, saying the policy needed to be changed because it was unlawful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ef5d1c592744871ad0b6f9b1142a242\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Authors\u2014Promotion to Children\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284f2b1aadd0a476192290ef1288c798c\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (NZ Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What initiatives, if any, has the Government taken to encourage children to become familiar with New Zealand authors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4ffa3cb89bf44bd8dc6ed191cb8b014\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4ffa3cb89bf44bd8dc6ed191cb8b014\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The Ministry of Education will provide funding over the next 3 financial years to support the writers in schools programme, which funds New Zealand writers to visit schools as part of four week-long programmes each year. It is targeted specifically at children in low-decile schools, and aims to foster a love of books, reading, and writing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221fe8a5921af4577bdc66bc61f123632\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: How does that initiative fit within the Government\u2019s wider policy agenda?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ff623d9be0f4c40a950f561ea9bd7af\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is committed to improving the reading and writing skills of our children. We have invested considerably in literacy development over the past 4 years, particularly in areas of teacher professional development and learning resources. The programme also encourages children to become familiar with New Zealand authors, thereby supporting the Government\u2019s goal to foster a strong national identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eea56dc1392458193c4e753a8823306\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Given the intention of Government to encourage children to become more familiar with New Zealand authors, would it be Government policy that people should read books before they write about them\u2014particularly noting that one of the Minister\u2019s Cabinet colleagues believes it is possible to write about a book without having read it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afc07a241da84567a603b90e4dfe177a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: There is a wide variety of fiction available in New Zealand, including Nicky Hager\u2019s Seeds of Distrust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d75370042ac461cac099498df18779f\u0022\u003EM\u0101ori Television Service\u2014Chief Executive\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266bfeee99c8b4fb98b2b38fb8d0f0137\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs: Was M\u0101ori Television Service Chairman, Mr Walden, correct when he stated \u201Cat no time has the M\u0101ori Television Service sought any kind of confidentiality agreement with Mr Fox. Nor has it restrained him from discussing the reasons for his resignation\u201D; and, given that taxpayers\u2019 money is involved, when will the public be given an account of what is going on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u0022e60196ec45c34001b2f7709c8ccfb2f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e60196ec45c34001b2f7709c8ccfb2f1\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Walden\u2019s comments are a matter for himself and the M\u0101ori Television Service board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224543b24873ff4c2e9e86d1eff7199d17\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That statement by the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs is basically a refusal to answer the question. What is the point of the Minister being the Minister if he is saying that matters that go on with taxpayers\u2019 money are nothing to do with him. Why has he taken a ministerial warrant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022140d1947e96041ababa996615bfd71fb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister should expand a little on the answer he has given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adbb7f78f259465cbce834ae106d1924\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: In the first instance it is an operational matter. Like any other business it is a human resource situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2a631b541740a39e4b58e2f911d3d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister to expand on that particular point just a little, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2550a9882a4d95b684d471d00f5ebb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It has been a longstanding tradition in this House for Government departments, and even more for organisations further from the Government\u2014for example, Crown entities like the M\u0101ori Television Service\u2014that personal matters, which are operational matters and clearly under the Act of Parliament not a responsibility of individual Ministers, are not answered by Ministers in this House. I ask you to consider your direction to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224265f0f5e3fb4b53b08c16ad4982b256\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: We have an interesting dilemma. The whole House knows, and possibly you know, Mr Speaker, if you read the weekend newspapers, that Mr Fox told the country he would be quite happy to say what went on but that he was bound by a confidentiality agreement that prevented him from doing it. Mr Walden has said there is no confidentiality agreement. It would be absurd if a member of Parliament could not ask the Minister: \u201CWho is lying? Is Mr Fox lying or is Mr Walden lying?\u201D. Instead, we have an answer we all know\u2014it is an operational matter. So what, Minister! Was there, or was there not, a confidentiality agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e603fb12cbac424dadd7eb704e383bad\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister determined twice to answer in that particular way\u2014that is, that it was an operational matter. He is entitled to give that as an answer. That does not mean the House has to accept it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad94b43291ae4db4a299d7803a4a078c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to take up the point that the Minister of State Services made about the conventions in the House. He stated there is a convention here that we do not hold Ministers responsible for operational matters. It used to be a convention that we could hold Ministers responsible for those things that they were directly responsible for, like the actions of their civil servants, decisions made by their departments, and information released by them. It appears that it has become a convention\u2014at least of this Government\u2014that we cannot hold Ministers responsible, even for Government departments for which they are directly responsible. Can I take it from that that you will accept the assertion made by the Minister of State Services that Ministers have no more responsibility for Crown entities these days than they do for Government departments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f13764ee0bc044df8a4f69188c1ad60f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 117/1, which basically states that as far as asking the question is concerned the member has a perfect right to ask the question. The Minister has a right to answer it in his way, but obviously that does not mean that a member will always be satisfied with the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002234a43fb9006e41fe92b51eac9234a6d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The problem with that is that the Minister can get up and say: \u201CI don\u2019t intend to answer because, although I appointed the man to the head of the board, his comments have nothing to do with me, whatsoever.\u201D Frankly, this Minister and his officials have had at least 3\u00BD hours in which to contact Mr Walden and be able to say to this House: \u201CI have contacted Mr Walden and he assures me that that is correct.\u201D That, at least, is what he owes this House. To get up, having had access to all the information, in a very simple way and say that he will not answer the question\u2014by way of its being an operational matter\u2014is simply treating this House with contempt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022067845182c8e4a04a27392d2cfec5906\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member might say that, and he is entitled to do so in response to the answer given, but the question was properly asked and the answer given was in order, in terms of the Standing Orders. I cannot put words in the mouth of the Minister, but people are free to criticise that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5abfb39129848beb6bf0ff8ed5af2dd\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fully appreciate the dilemma that you are in\u2014that the Speaker cannot make any Minister answer any question\u2014but that is not quite the position we are in. The Minister is really asking us to accept a new convention, because anything can be described as operational. It defies belief that the Minister does not know the answer. I think it would be helpful if you, as Speaker, would say that the parliamentary thing to be done by a Minister who knows the answer is to give it, unless there is some reason of public policy that he should not. I cannot see what that could be, as we have two senior officials\u2014one is now an ex-official\u2014one of whom has to be lying. The Minister is leaving suspicion over both of them, and he should clear the person who is honest from the one who is dishonest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b4254eaf504054a37639e25261c188\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is no convention\u2014and I stress this point\u2014about Ministers not being answerable for operational matters. I appreciate the point the member made at the start of his point of order\u2014which is the dilemma any Speaker is in when an answer is given. The answer is not always acceptable to anybody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42bd18d528d49a8915f115cac5933f5\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s reply, could he clarify for the House and for the people of New Zealand which statement is true: the statement made by the chairman that there was no confidentiality agreement, or the statement made by the former chief executive that there was; if he cannot clarify that, how can the public possibly have any confidence that the $70 million poured into M\u0101ori television will ever deliver anything more than a complete and utter shambles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286dc8340c2634c7e963dada4552e5f65\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: As I said at the outset, and I have sought advice from Mr Walden, I was advised by the M\u0101ori Television Service this morning that it never sought a confidentiality agreement between the M\u0101ori Television Service and Mr Fox. However, I am also advised by the M\u0101ori Television Service that Mr Fox\u2019s lawyer did seek a confidentiality clause, and the M\u0101ori Television Service agreed to that, in one sentence. Shall I labour on about this? If this House is to adjust terms of reference in human resource development and people\u2019s contracts, then let us all have a look at our contracts. I understand that this is at an end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220558e81a1b7f4b61a8a6c7a547eee70c\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is not the first time that we have had a non-answer from this Minister. We have someone who says: \u201CNo, can\u2019t do that. Can\u2019t answer the question.\u201D, and then, once the Opposition has used up a few questions and the Minister comes under a bit of pressure, he goes on to reveal the information he or she was asked for in the first instance. I put it to you that it is bringing this House into disrepute if Opposition members ask a question, and the Minister says it is operational and he is not going to comment. He was defended by Mr Mallard in his response that it was operational. You backed the Minister and declared that if it was operational he did not have to comment. He then came out and gave the full answer that he should have given in the first instance. I ask you to rule that Ministers should give the proper answer upfront.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022897618eae34045b5a3d39e9f5da9623e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I object strongly to the member saying that I supported the Minister. I upheld the Standing Orders, and I maintain that, absolutely. I say to the Minister that I wish he had given that answer right at the start, because that would have been the appropriate thing to do. I am not going to penalise any members who ask subsequent questions, and they may carry on doing so if they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b338142f65443449836f6f9e1381f00\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think this is a case where you do have a sanction. There is no point in the Minister giving such a non-answer, except to use up the Opposition\u2019s questions, which now, under your rulings this year\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4956fec5a57444ba99251170444754e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have just indicated to the member that that is what I am doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022924255ff9342441e8dcbd7720e2a0a48\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: You are going to give us some extra questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd0964b7d534f4b95d1e2aa30e9617d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247643e7f13cc4332938691c933407b67\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, jolly good. Thank you. I am very much in favour of that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e24d89e9af491bb9662d24dcdd0fdb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were two parties whose members asked a question, and they will get a question now\u2014one to National and one to ACT. But the next question goes to the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022525caec006684f3088aede10b125a6fc\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What is the position: did the board sign a confidentiality agreement with Mr Fox, as denied at the start of the Minister\u2019s answer, or was one agreed to by Mr Fox and the board, which was the suggestion the Minister made at the end of his answer, because he said it was at the behest of Mr Fox\u2019s lawyer? Is there or is there not a confidentiality agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022316c5c07936a43369395f695357336fc\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: I will clarify for my learned elder over there. Mr Walden is quite clear that M\u0101ori Television Service did not seek a confidentiality clause. It was sought in an overarching approach by Mr Fox\u2019s lawyer. They are\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f19623b7a504177831188abe2072393\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked in the primary question whether there was a confidentiality agreement. We still do not know whether the Minister\u2019s view is that there is one or there is not one. But he seems to be alluding to the fact that Mr Fox\u2019s lawyer sought a clause, with regard to the full agreement, that referred to confidentiality of a certain matter. Now, if that is the case, there is a confidentiality agreement. Could the Minister please say \u201CYes\u201D or \u201CNo\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b9dbeb376f4112ac433e4af6528254\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first point is that I understood the Minister did say there was a confidentiality agreement, and that Mr Walden said there was one. I understood that quite clearly. Secondly, I understood the Minister to say that Mr Fox\u2019s lawyer wanted to have his own arrangement, also. That, to me, certainly addressed the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5f6063d9b8f48dab772c5c7098518c4\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: Does the chair of the M\u0101ori Television Service board retain the confidence of the Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219b85a3626cf4f489d64e35e2fd55b3d\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, most certainly. His commercial acumen is well tested and well known in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203cf1573f8d14c5cb02abddfd65fcf1f\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Since the House is to understand that there is a confidentiality agreement, can the Minister tell the House what this agreement covers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff4d969fa2ed4c838182442df099edf1\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: As I said before, if this House is about to adjust the rights of people and their contracts, then that is something else we have to labour on. No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229804b56d386f429290d73d9487eaadc1\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f05e8950846646228c812eb28a3fa874\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the Minister said \u201CNo\u201D at the end of his question, and that was in answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227262026f72a34f1da892e76dc0ae3850\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister said that it was not for the House to adjust agreements. That is not what the member asked. The member asked whether there was a confidentiality agreement and what it covered. The Minister did not, in any way, refer to the question at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f74386a5799244e589084bd938566e1d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes he did. He said \u201CNo\u201D. He would not give the details. I heard him say that and so did the Clerk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214dbf01da51c4e059e7f6c7c22a1bab3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, the Minister was asked whether he was aware of the agreement\u2019s provisions, not whether he would release them. He did not answer the question that was asked by Katherine Rich.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022090bd6deb62a4dbba4e9b7c55fc232b8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I think the Minister did address that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268ccd61254f24b7c99ec3ba48bd336e6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Is the House correct to conclude that Derek Fox sought, through his lawyer, a confidentiality agreement, which he now chooses to hide behind, and that Mr Walden, the Chairman of the M\u0101ori Television Service, was incorrect when he said that there was no confidentiality agreement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dae4df3c0244fdbb029a9996ad684c0\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: In both parts the member is right. In the sense of what Mr Fox said and Mr Walden said, from their own points of view, I believe that they were giving honest answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba40e460b0264704a286e3d1e584aeb9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Was the chairman of the M\u0101ori Television Service factually correct when he said there was no confidentiality agreement binding Mr Fox?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f31405120cf42369a9b316b62f9f387\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e71f718915f74cf9adc2c5846387d2de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have been considering that last answer. Now we are in a real quandary and no one is any the wiser about what has gone on. We have just been told that Mr Walden was correct in saying there was no confidentiality agreement. The word \u201Csought\u201D was not in that question; the operative word that was in the primary question is not there. The straight, factual question was: was he correct when he said that there was no agreement on confidentiality? The Minister\u2019s answer was \u201CYes\u201D. Well, it cannot stand against the primary answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b8bb188daa24568bb270a5b51f0ca3e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister gave an answer that certainly addressed the question that was asked. He said \u201CYes\u201D. I cannot think of any more specific answer than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226306f7a83a1e45f9a2746e89a46a01f3\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, can I clarify this quite clearly. Mr Walden did not seek an agreement. The M\u0101ori Television Service board did not seek the agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a31990145be847bd8a117e66d10915fa\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think anyone in the House wants the Minister to commit a breach of privilege, and it is possible that his answers are still correct, because one interpretation still lies open, from the Minister, which he has not clarified. It is this: yes, Mr Fox\u2019s lawyers sought a confidentiality agreement, and, yes, it was granted, but in no way does that confidentiality agreement prevent Mr Fox from saying what has happened\u2014it might prevent the M\u0101ori Television Service. It would be helpful if he would clarify that, because it would indicate that Mr Fox has actually been telling porkies in the media.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a653a1e5d8b84564a749fd40cdc6848c\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c7abdd49214ec284b80c5043df5269\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Minister\u2019s performance today in evading answers and wasting the time of the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022febccc4415f347aa8db80748182ec3f9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member just come to the question, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227962d0ef85f4449087261d67927a04f9\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House whether there is now anything stopping Mr Fox from telling the truth\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63ebc501ddc4f1291bc56536415ecaa\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffd29e12f1454ae2ad15e4677cca3c8a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not believe that in any other self-respecting democracy a Minister could have survived at the end of such a procedure as we just heard in this question. The fundamental facts are that we now think, or have been told, that there was no agreement; then that there was an agreement, that Mr Fox sought it, and that it was granted. The last answer, given to Mr Prebble, was that Mr Fox was telling porkies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7277882d8f4a48a80d59e87eaa4eb4\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4fc0e29ea5e4deb856c45615e75e4f6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was. Now Mr Fox has been called a liar, yet to a prior question the Minister said that Mr Fox\u2019s lawyers had sought a confidentiality clause and it had been granted. So Fox was not telling lies, but today he is. At the end of this debacle\u2014which is an absolute shambles, the like of which I have not seen in Parliament\u2014the Prime Minister has to ask herself what is going on with her administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241cba4b7b1274a0f81c339403202d200\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. Whether the answers are correct or consistent is a matter for examination and debate, not for a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022365f9625e56d49a583d78bde6d5616fb\u0022\u003EEnvironmental Risk Management Authority\u2014Review\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a93a7b8c4b2416dbf99e444d888dc75\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Is she satisfied with the progress the Environmental Risk Management Authority (ERMA) has made in addressing the recommendations of the review of ERMA; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00221632030900454f6d98566726f78570ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221632030900454f6d98566726f78570ca\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I have received both a draft report\u2014I think a second version on the one that was given in confidence to the select committee\u2014and verbal advice from the chair of the authority that action has been either completed or substantially taken on 40 of the review\u2019s 49 recommendations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022164e57b45b9a47b1a791f81a18d5b605\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What concrete actions has the authority taken since the release of the review to address the serious criticisms in that review, and what practical effect will they have on the authority\u2019s management of the risks of genetic engineering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1e08e9d0e3f4674ba843c6f78d8716e\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: A number of actions have been taken to strengthen the authority\u2019s governance role, in line with the whole chapter of recommendations to do with governance. They include defining the responsibilities of the authority and the board, a stronger focus on governance duties, and a restructuring of the authority\u2019s standing committees. There has also been a formal self-assessment of the authority\u2019s governance performance, a performance review of its chief executive officer, and a strict guideline set for the following year. I could go on. A number of very practical recommendations have been taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285b59f810e824663bc5a0c4bb0faea0b\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What did the review say about the authority\u2019s performance as the independent decision-maker controlling the introduction of new plants and animals, including genetically modified organisms?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f3b26c890e94552b423bfb77075c613\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The review team found that the authority contained a good cross section of the necessary skills and experience. Furthermore, the staff of the agency that supports the authority are of an extremely high calibre. The review panel\u2019s report stated in paragraph 2.5.1 that it concentrated on what could be improved, rather than on what is already sound and effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c53dfa5bcc408da66a52a38693db08\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Cabinet policy committee on 9 April 2003 note that economic modelling results suggest that the release of GM organisms closer to the human food chain poses greater risk than releases from medical or pest control purposes; if so, what expectations of the Environmental Risk Management Authority has the Government imposed to cater for that reality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e10936e3e9e4936b6a1c4347a37ab62\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The expectations I have expressed in discussions with the chair of the authority are that if there are issues to do with genetically modified organisms coming directly into our food chain as a result of any release, conditional or otherwise, I would consider that probably a serious enough matter to do a call-in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263aab16df7ac4aa6850fb45da4b303a8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: In view of the statements in the review that \u201Cthere are tensions between staff of the agency and their counterparts in MAF over the efficacy of some controls and the regularity of monitoring imposed\u201D and \u201Cit is at this point that the system of risk management for new organisms is most vulnerable\u201D, is she happy with the authority\u2019s response to the Education and Science Committee that the operating agreement with the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry is \u201Ca cooperative arrangement that already functions very effectively\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd12690b760249c9ab6288cbed233319\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the review panel\u2019s report on recommendations 16 and 49, arrangements are in place for regular and ongoing dialogue between the Environmental Risk Management Authority and the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry on new organisms controls, on setting out the monitoring that goes with that, and on setting out who is responsible in which particular area so that there are none of the miscommunications of the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcdf892a9b4342d5990b4677b9428441\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that the authority\u2019s current methodology for analysing risks, costs, and benefits analyses only the financial costs and benefits to the applicant and completely ignores economic costs to neighbouring farmers and to New Zealand as a whole?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccf07168c31f4c3d8f690e2b211f20ec\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I am quite confident from discussions I have had with the chair of the authority that the economic costs to New Zealand as a whole will be taken into consideration in the methodology that is under review at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe7c60966ec34dadbb9de652c548a903\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the authority\u2019s replies to the select committee on the actions it has taken to implement the 49 recommendations show it is in denial that any of the serious problems identified by the committee even exist, and that her answers tend to support that denial?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b46180cb57a4acb993d999a43b2683a\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The draft the member saw, which was a primary draft\u2014and I have seen further work since then\u2014does not seem to me to show that the authority is in denial. It does say that work is in progress and that since the report was written, and since the review, some of those recommendations have been fully met and undertaken. I have total confidence in the Environmental Risk Management Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237697eb95f6b4d67a4706d886d4d3fc5\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Sweetcorn\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225102a3b1e2340138bea05be70bb1316\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: How does she reconcile her statements on TV3 on Wednesday, 10 July 2002 that \u201Cwe really went back and sought further information as to whether there was a threshold level that had been breached. That\u2019s my recollection.\u201D and \u201Cmy recollection was that on testing and sampling it was determined that it didn\u2019t pass a sufficient threshold level to be considered a problem.\u201D, with the statement by her Minister for the Environment that the \u201CGovernment never deviated from its policy of zero tolerance for GM contamination in seed imports.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002250798a67b02b4f0fbd1f375d680f4e66\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250798a67b02b4f0fbd1f375d680f4e66\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Easily. There was, and still is, a legal requirement for zero tolerance, and no reliable evidence of contamination was found. The threshold the Government adhered to throughout was zero.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d34cdab89df8456383ccd0f633d0f3d0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Did she receive, read, and understand a memo from Ruth Wilkie on 28 May 2001 alerting her personally to the fact that the Government had been operating a policy \u201Cinconsistent with existing legislation\u201D, or did she regard that memo as just another fantasy on the part of Ruth Wilkie, who apparently can make up memos about meetings that never happened and, in this case, made up a memo about a policy that never operated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247574ff4aa09428d9d6ade54b2582562\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen that memo, and that memo did not alert me to any change of Government policy. What it alerted me to\u2014and the member for Nelson has referred to this in an earlier question\u2014was debate going on between officials as to whether, as the National spokesperson on science believes, there should have been a permissible level of GM contamination. That was never the position Ministers adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d92dca50bf1b48bcae872621ccc96958\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: How is it that in making those quotes the Prime Minister seemed to have a detailed recollection of the details of testing procedures, when she has maintained all along that she never took much interest in the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c968c3df83394a98a6d001975117d13a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The problem with that interview without notice was that the Prime Minister was being asked to recall things that had happened a year and 9 months before, and in which she had not had any central part in driving at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c406050b2c18401b9ea4fb71d33c6121\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister still want the Broadcasting Standards Authority to force TV3 to pay $25,000 and apologise for not, in the authority\u2019s terms, \u201Cachieving balance in regard to the issue of Government accountability and trustworthiness\u201D; if so, what does the Prime Minister think that that says about abuse of power in high office to compel TV3 to apologise for tackling her with what is now shown to have been the truth, however viciously she denied it at the time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228beb7798b40b47c295e6d81218807ca6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is a matter of record that a Broadcasting Standards Authority decision stated that the Prime Minister had been treated unfairly, that the programme was unbalanced, and that it lacked objectivity and impartiality. On the basis of those findings the parties were asked to make submissions on what actions should follow, and my lawyer did. We made a submission on the basis that costs should be paid in the light of those findings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd36c4b84c3a49788dd2308da0e28ca2\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the Prime Minister\u2019s deep concern about whether she is treated fairly, or is a victim of her own success\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d27eb6af9fb94c938dc99f3bb8431867\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask that you enforce the requirements you indicated earlier that there would be no interjections during questions. There were at least three, including one from Nick Smith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e732c6c507b54f2aa9aacde5fd5542c5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want the member to carry on with his question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223489a18a6edf4d7883898352bc4e9c42\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Prime Minister\u2019s deep concern that she is treated fairly, and not as a victim of her own success, does she believe she is treating Ruth Wilkie fairly with her allegations today that Ms Wilkie manufactured the story about a meeting between the Prime Minister and Mary Anne Thompson, where they discussed what documents were going to be released and what documents were going to be held back, and is that fair to Ruth Wilkie?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff7769f02a164201a4a020848e74f587\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have made no such allegation. What I will say is that no leader of the National Party has been less successful than that one. He would not know what success was if he fell over it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022587d8da7867449c9a0410b44322c0cea\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In answering that question the Prime Minister effectively denied what she has already said in question time, which was that the meeting referred to in the Wilkie memo never happened. As I understand it, the record of the House shows that the Prime Minister said the memo never happened\u2014she said that the meeting never happened; of course the memo did, and that is unfortunate for her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292491cc0f07f470a8d50d18ad8eeda42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter of debate; it is not a matter of whether the answer addressed the question. If the member thinks the House has been misled he has a proper process to follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b2ffd8b1cd49a4bc2a5d1dbe7702d3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister climbed to her feet, gave her denial, then launched into an attack on the questioner. How is that possibly within the Standing Orders, Speakers\u2019 Rulings, or the proper conduct of the affairs of this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202b73d92296e49db9bb1ba8cd6803ccb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is perfectly correct, the Prime Minister should not have had that last part of the answer, but she certainly addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227efb56fed88b423cbcbd2bf852f19815\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: What did the Prime Minister understand to be the change of approach referred to in Ruth Wilkie\u2019s memo of 28 May 2001 in which she appears to contrast the previous position of \u201Ca defined level of tolerance\u201D with the new standard \u201Cany positive result will mean that the seed lot will be rejected\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205c0962534084fef82a79b68702a2d81\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My analysis of these papers would suggest that Ms Wilkie was referring to a matter that the member for Nelson brought to the attention of the House earlier in question time today, and that was paragraph 24 of a memo to the Minister for Biosecurity and the Minister for the Environment, which referred to an initial approach proposed by officials. That was never an approach that the Ministers adopted, but as the member will know if she has conscientiously been through 1,800-plus pages of evidence, there seemed to be a great debate going on between officials as to whether they were talking about probability, statistical levels of confidence, or against permissible levels of contamination, as advocated by Dr Paul Hutchison, National\u2019s spokesperson on science.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a7065556f1ba4d148c5a9df82e9d793e\u0022\u003ETourism\u2014Marketing, Japan\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613404f015274ad3bdc8396ed73a457d\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Tourism: What is being done to encourage recovery in the inbound tourism market from Japan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022d319d80d1a8242678bfcf15a3591e9c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d319d80d1a8242678bfcf15a3591e9c4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Tourism):\u003C/span\u003E The House may be aware that the Japan outbound traveller numbers have dropped significantly as a result of the severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars) virus, just as they did following the events of 11 September 2001. Key Government agencies and sector representatives are working in close partnership to promote the recovery of our fourth-largest tourism market. In this regard, last week I travelled to Japan to work with Tourism New Zealand on our Japan market recovery programme. I announced there the doubling of Tourism New Zealand\u2019s funding for the successful \u201C100 Percent Pure New Zealand\u201D campaign in Japan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c54ff1fdeeb4229b61c93523fb61613\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives are planned to encourage visitors from Japan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223204300c24cc43a1bd1d24e9dce72f85\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: As well as an increase in the marketing budget for Japan, New Zealand will have a major presence, coordinated by Tourism New Zealand, involving 20 New Zealand tourism operators at the Japan Association of Travel Agents World Travel Fair in Yokohama in October. It will also be sponsoring the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra performance in Osaka around the \u201C100 Percent Pure New Zealand\u201D campaign. My discussions with industry leaders in Japan make me confident the Japan market recovery programme will assist and encourage Japanese visitors to return to New Zealand, just as they did after a similar promotional partnership between industry and the Government during 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297208b2d1ede4bba9e771eda47d38220\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister not concerned that his campaign to promote \u201C100 Percent Pure New Zealand\u201D to attract Japanese tourists will be undermined if the Government lifts the GE moratorium, given that 76 percent of Japanese people believe that GE is bad for their health and the environment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9c3d90d3b1421d809d0e02a8c75eb2\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bfcca2e487ff4e7981f8736c6dc6fb16\u0022\u003EMinisterial Confidence\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022232ebdef1ed84be78557a22f53feec89\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she have confidence in the Minister of Research, Science and Technology and Convenor, Ministerial Group on Climate Change; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e329f7823ae84b619408e7216dfb2cae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e329f7823ae84b619408e7216dfb2cae\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because he is a hard-working and conscientious Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4dc7c81aa64dcfa229124397fae9b9\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government intend to implement a compulsory agricultural greenhouse gas emissions research levy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e784184c3843878d0f802695bce9fb\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Government remains optimistic about a voluntary level. It waits with eager anticipation to see whether the National Party has a policy on withdrawing from the protocol.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b27647b0884824821a587aba40e589\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Is her Government considering a politically less-damaging way of collecting revenue to fund research into the gaseous by-products of the ruminant gut, as an alternative to the \u201Cfart and burp tax\u201D promoted by her Minister Hodgson; if so, what are those alternative revenue-gathering proposals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aa4c1bd3a014c0283266084076c8d8d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There is no such tax, as the member knows. The Government will continue to talk to its friends and colleagues in the farming industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3d4d84dca1401eb213bdc9d6b25b68\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Prime Minister\u2019s statements that she is a strong, front-footing, leadership Prime Minister, does she plan to meet the farmers on the front steps of Parliament on Thursday to explain the Government\u2019s position on the flatulence tax; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228bf0cd21a804ecdb63e63817db855f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have engagements in Auckland on Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a428967dbe7d44fb9993c0e31d837d5a\u0022\u003EGrowth and Innovation Framework\u2014Hightech Companies\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec1a9d2241bb44f9a3d53a6fcbfd4a03\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Industry and Regional Development: What commitment has the Government given recently to high-tech companies which meet the objectives of the coalition Government\u2019s growth and innovation framework to establish New Zealand as a centre of excellence for innovative development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022 data-id=\u0022976a542fee56433084eaf874d52616dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022976a542fee56433084eaf874d52616dd\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON (Minister for Industry and Regional Development):\u003C/span\u003E On Monday it was announced that Investment New Zealand\u2019s strategic investment fund will provide a $2 million guarantee for technology assistance support to Auckland biotechnology company Protemix. Protemix will apply to the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology under its existing programmes and criteria, and any difference between the available assistance from the foundation and the $2 million will be underwritten by Investment New Zealand. The deal will ensure that New Zealand retains and recruits the pool of scientists, business people, and scientific entrepreneurs it needs to participate fully in the global biopharmaceutical market\u2014all objectives of the growth and innovation framework strategy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf78b982ea564dd1a0f4d25ebd824e81\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: Why did Investment New Zealand get involved in this venture, given that any investment in new research is, by definition, financially risky?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299e258d2399a4eb0a53f32b624e7d556\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Protemix has attracted significant interest from venture capitalists to provide it with most of the financial capacity it needed to continue its drug-discovery development and commercialisation programme. The provision of the strategic investment fund, underwritten to enable Protemix to complete its $2 million capital-raising programme, allows control of Protemix, its drug-discovery and development pipeline, and its team of scientists to remain in New Zealand, while allowing for international collaboration and partnering for commercialisation of its discoveries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022deeb44e37a644a609add0060e7289487\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is not Protemix\u2019s new diabetes treatment an example of the widely supported, well-tested, laboratory-based biotechnology that New Zealand is good at, and which has the potential to bring substantial economic gains to the country; if so, why did the Government persist in wanting to undermine this success by pursuing other forms of biotechnology that threaten our health, environment, and economy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782815ce11f5442289d28d2d4d0c5f69\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is supporting Protemix because it is an example of an innovative, creative industry, which holds significant promise not only to New Zealanders in the diabetes situation but to the world itself. I would have thought that, for once, the Greens could celebrate that fact with this Government and all New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213299cb0f3f244aabf0d862629d10075\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What is the significance of the biotechnology sector to New Zealand\u2019s chances of becoming a wealthier nation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272212678062f41fc90e9acca63dd3e47\u0022\u003EHon JIM ANDERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Biotechnology is one of the focus sectors of the growth and innovation framework because it has particular scope to add significant value to our already world-class primary sectors. In this case, Protemix develops new therapies for diabetes and associated cardiovascular disease, as well as for metabolic disorders. It has a number of diabetes-related drugs under development, including one capable of generating annual revenue of NZ$1,500 million or more, for diabetic heart disease. The $2 million underwrite is reflective of this coalition Government\u2019s commitment to expand significantly the biotechnology sector of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022929e588f6a474846a65c8b2ab24d6bf6\u0022\u003EQuestions to Members\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b6a8a8cbcab494ba20f6b99215d0e11\u0022\u003ELocal Government and Environment Committee\u2014Prime Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E1. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b648df8ecf9d44f99bbc271de5a85ae6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: Will the chairperson be requesting the Prime Minister to attend a meeting of the committee in relation to the inquiry into \u201Ccorngate\u201D; if so, when?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022128924386ef841068d427de8b128c282\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022128924386ef841068d427de8b128c282\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E The committee considered a motion to that effect last week, and it was not agreed to. As far as I am concerned, that is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d14be1adf5224ad99fafa8c6bcae1169\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: How can the committee credibly carry out its own terms of reference\u2014in particular, whether a contamination tolerance level was accepted by the Government in 2000\u2014in light of the memorandum to the Prime Minister by Ruth Wilkie on 8 December 2000, headed \u201CPossible contamination of imported seed with genetically modified material\u201D and stating: \u201CWe cannot say whether we have reliably discovered contamination in the corn currently planted, but equally we cannot say that we have completely discounted it\u201D, and the Prime Minister\u2019s statement on 11 July, the eve of the election\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e49806ed9a347dc8f429a4c9185cc01\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. The member knows full well that the chairperson is responsible for her actions as chairperson. She is not responsible for voting decisions by individual members of the committee, and the question relates to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de91f3b9866b44c4b94ef0e18fea9226\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. A committee has set up an inquiry to publicly investigate this matter, and I think I am entitled to ask the committee\u2014not the chairperson\u2014how it believes it can discover whether there has been a cover-up, and whether the Prime Minister\u2019s statement on the eve of the election, that \u201CI can state categorically that the tests confirm that there was no evidence that there was GE contamination.\u201D, was true, or whether it was a complete cover-up by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d55d389f32bb4d24905fe48da89bccdd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 22/1 (Supplement). He knows full well that it is the chairperson alone, not the committee, who can be asked about her actions as chair. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c57a5f0c70b486e9c20d6e9cac124c6\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. If you are going to put it that way, I ask the chairperson why she regards the matter as ending at this point, given the fact that the Prime Minister made a public statement categorically denying that there was any GE contamination, which was in contradiction to statements given to her by her own officials.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022246f349c2577484b8c0915a26f70da2f\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe the committee has ample written evidence in front of it to reach a conclusion, eventually, about whether a threshold was set. We are seeking additional scientific interpretation of test results to help us with the question of just what those results showed in terms of likely contamination. Those are important terms of reference for the committee, and I believe we can answer them with the information we have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac632f7fa74a4a259b99c28d2a6e80f9\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it true that the chairperson was threatened by Labour that if she voted for my motion in favour of the Prime Minister coming before the committee, there would be adverse consequences for the Green Party in any future coalition? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f12e1f484054fec9f52cf83602fc303\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278a324099d1b499998a90c9a31f440ca\u0022\u003ELocal Government and Environment Committee\u2014Genetically Modified Sweetcorn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aad7a95ae6c4410a9334680480b2ee7f\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee: When will the committee next meet to discuss the inquiry into the alleged accidental release of genetically engineered sweetcorn plants in 2000 and the subsequent actions taken?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00221cc637d4553e4478a2cd96a2b32c9e6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221cc637d4553e4478a2cd96a2b32c9e6e\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Chairperson of the Local Government and Environment Committee):\u003C/span\u003E While a committee schedule is always subject to change, I am anticipating that the next meeting on the inquiry will be on 18 September, after the committee has had the opportunity to make further progress on the dogs legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29d36939d104efc832fc1f3679cc3b9\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Hon Dr Nick Smith disclose to the select committee his conflict of interest as a trustee of the Cawthron Institute, when he nominated the expert adviser from Cawthron to independently advise the select committee on the sweetcorn inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219e0f5ae6db344198154c36695bc8e30\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The obligation on members to declare pecuniary interests falls on the member concerned, not on the Speaker or on the chairperson of a select committee. If members feel that the obligation has not been complied with, there is a procedure for raising it with the Speaker. That question is not in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578e198f70834cbcab87d33f89f2729f\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I wish to make a personal explanation with regard to the issue that has been raised. The Cawthron legislation provides that the member of Parliament for Nelson will be a trustee. When the Local Government and Environment Committee sought an independent adviser, I told the committee of my involvement. I said that the Cawthron Institute, of which I had some knowledge, was completely independent of Government. The final decision on the selection of the adviser was made by the Clerk of the House, because the committee had a tied vote and could not come to a conclusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226541b31ebb824c13ba459e49d6f61dde\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you now to consider your ruling. The question asked of the chair was not around the question of pecuniary interest, but about whether a declaration of conflict of interest had been made at the committee. There is clearly disagreement as to those facts, and the matter could be easily cleared up by the chair of the committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b7d799dadc4ea69aeb008f8f329340\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is nothing to do with the House or the Speaker. That question is out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200a95a2538984d919bfd1b385661d74f\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What concerned me during that supplementary question from Mr Parker\u2014which was in no way connected to his original question, which was about when the committee was next to meet\u2014was that you immediately rose to your feet and read your ruling from a piece of paper. That leads me to believe that you, or the Clerk, had been given advance notice of the second question that Mr Parker was to ask and, therefore, have in some way bought into the stunt that the Government has pulled in the House. I want an assurance that you were not given notice of the content of the supplementary question. If the Clerk was given it and then went to you, we can deal with the issue in a different way, but I want an assurance from you that you were not being used by the Government in this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d415ecf3b414a45b6a87379a865d700\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I want to say that, as far as I am concerned, the Clerk saw the question, we talked about it at our meeting, and I said that we had better have a ruling ready in case something was asked that was out of order. [Interruption] I also say to the House that the Clerk knew because the words were in the original question. That is how we knew. I had no knowledge of the question being asked until I saw it on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022498b42bf6e374958ba299cd2210eca47\u0022\u003Eappointment of the technical adviser to the Local Government and Environment Committee, so the record can be absolutely clear to the House as to how that appointment was made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218fc65b86eb049fa9257f5cc1ea63d76\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table in the House the minutes associated with the \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f2559ee1fb244292aad05c439d790d65\u0022\u003ELocal Government and Environment Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022160f9d1629c34aa9821ee0908c3e9df2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: In elaboration of subsequent actions that the  will take, will the chairperson be taking into account that this committee of inquiry was set up at the suggestion of the Prime Minister, as stated in her press release; and given that, does she not think it would be a good idea if the Prime Minister were to front up and tell the House the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222936996dab0d4426a0962e521beb7c81\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that when the committee first discussed the suggestion that there be an inquiry into this matter, we had reference to the statement the Prime Minister made that she would be happy for a select committee to inquire into it. I have no further comment to make about the Prime Minister\u2019s appearance. That matter was resolved by resolution of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022468bfd1a632c410099eb93594cb56d50\u0022\u003Eshe\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223aae26e01c841fa9a1d8424d0321247\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: If  asserts, as she did, that she was not under any pressure from the Prime Minister, what did she think that attack yesterday was all about, or does she still think she is on the Prime Minister\u2019s Christmas card list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfde355623eb437e910707f64f80d026\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member can answer the question if she wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a748f9708c4a3a8d73b1a9563237df\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS\u003C/span\u003E: I would just point out to the member that the vote on whether to request the Prime Minister to attend took place last week. The Prime Minister\u2019s statements about me took place yesterday. I do not think that one could have affected the other.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002273622d7d335e429d9f2d6ff77087dafe\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Member\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe20f284139a43d299544adffc96e78d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe20f284139a43d299544adffc96e78d\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My first point of order is in respect of the number of questions today. I think you might be in error as to the counting of supplementary questions from the Government side, in that a supplementary question was not asked in question No. 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279bc7854bb15440096264a4436a4d136\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary questions are counted on the ordinary 12 questions. They are not counted on questions to members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba707ce89d944609abd3e1b398473912\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the minutes of the 13 March 2003 meeting, when Dr Smith voted in favour of requesting the Clerk of the House to advise who would be the best of two experts to assist the committee, but did not disclose his conflict of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f0a5e237c814fae81a26ecbc9fe6477\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has already been sought and granted, but I will seek leave for that particular meeting\u2019s minutes to be tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d24af6091d2d489ca3670bf7141958d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d24af6091d2d489ca3670bf7141958d9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Under a point of order, you have allowed a member\u2019s word to be questioned. Dr Nick Smith stood up in this House by leave and gave a personal explanation as to what had happened, and then we had this fish at the back take a point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223462f3c98e4e47ea94a89435c1942d89\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order will be expressed tersely and without any interjection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a33ff120ec294850a75c2448ae13be90\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: You allowed Mr David Parker to stand up at the back, take a point of order, and directly contradict the personal explanation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213a9566353514239975c64b21742386f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As far as I am concerned, I realised that there was a request for something to be tabled, and I heard something about minutes. At that point I ceased listening because I understood what the member had asked to be tabled. If the member was using that to question the word of another member, he will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b73a93d691824ccb8e91feabe17ebb71\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: No, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c865964928b14cc2a090ab149cedb58f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, that is all that needs to be said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c483de6bb3c04ec88f2d2f743be7270c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c483de6bb3c04ec88f2d2f743be7270c\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (NZ Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The honourable member Dr Nick Smith sought leave of the House to table the minutes. That does not impose upon him any obligation to table the minutes. I too sought leave to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc7e91cb592544acbd922f8775a791ec\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wish the member would read the Standing Orders. If he says he has leave to table them, he is expected to table them. If he does not, then he faces the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25970031e7c402782f645dcb1aa89d2\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s optional.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022465f3cb5af2f4e62b32a6cca41b4a53e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with that. It is still optional. I have now been assured by the member that he will table the minutes, and every member of the House heard him give that assurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002201750c536c9041d7a8a42ebc100cf481\u0022\u003EImmigration Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b8a5cd5945f45c98d168768009ea244\u0022\u003EInstructions to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002242f39febf2a04526a4174f7d2f903f62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002242f39febf2a04526a4174f7d2f903f62\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Immigration Amendment Bill that it have the power to consider and, if it thinks fit, adopt the amendments set out in Supplementary Order Paper 131.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI begin by thanking the parties in the House that have responded positively to my request that support be given to the Supplementary Order Paper in my name. I apologise for the lateness of the advice to parties; however, the High Court decision that it addresses was delivered on 7 August 2003. I took immediate advice from the Department of Labour, a paper was taken to Cabinet committees last week, and this measure was confirmed by Cabinet yesterday and by our own caucus today. As soon as our caucus confirmed the introduction of the Supplementary Order Paper, I signed letters to each of the parties, and received immediately positive responses from United Future, the National Party, and New Zealand First. I thank them for their willingness to address what is a fundamental flaw in the Immigration Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDetails of the Mohebbi case were reported in the New Zealand Herald on Friday, 8 August. This is a very important decision; it has very serious implications for New Zealand\u2019s security, and it is a matter that this House must address. We have the opportunity of the Immigration Amendment Bill to do so. Essentially, the individual concerned utilised every avenue to remain in New Zealand, including marrying a New Zealander despite already being married to another woman. He was convicted of bigamy and his residence application\u2014quite rightly\u2014was declined. A further appeal to the Removal Review Authority on the basis of a new relationship and a new son was dismissed. The authority observed: \u201CThe appellant\u2019s evidence is untrustworthy, and he will mould his evidence to suit whatever current purpose he has.\u201D He was given 7 days to leave New Zealand. He did not. He came to the attention of the police in March this year, and as a result was detained under the Immigration Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a307a47a40845c1bfacfa2dba72d651\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: There were 20,000 overstayers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b23633b178648cfabb4dccab60667c1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters\u2019 party has already agreed to support this amendment to the Immigration Act and, therefore, I would have thought his assistance would be rather more graciously given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMr Mohebbi then applied to the High Court for an interim restraint of the decision to remove him, ahead of judicial review. This was dismissed as hopeless by the High Court. The substantive application for judicial review still awaits a full hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn the meantime, the New Zealand Immigration Service has been unable to remove Mr Mohebbi. Why? Because it cannot get a travel document for him. Why? Because he has refused to request one from his own country\u2019s embassy. The 3-month limitation on detention under section 60 of the Immigration Act came to an end, so the Immigration Service sought to detain him under section 138A. Under that section, an immigration officer\u2014where the officer has good cause to suspect that a person is in New Zealand unlawfully and is liable to be removed\u2014for the purpose of establishing identity, may request that the person provide documents. If the person fails to comply with this provision, he or she may be placed in custody and brought before the District Court to establish identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe District Court accepted this approach in June this year, largely because a failure to do so, and I quote from the judge, \u201Ccountenanced the deliberate non-compliance with New Zealand laws\u201D. The District Court therefore ordered the respondent to produce a passport, or to assist the Immigration Service in the application for one, and ordered his continued detention for 30 days or until the order was complied with and brought back for determination of identity. The judge said, for the sake of completeness, that he would have made those orders even if he had been satisfied as to identity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOn an application under the Habeas Corpus Act, the High Court ruled that section 138A could not be used in that way, and that, as section 60 had a 3-month limitation, he could not be held under the Immigration Act. Justice Chambers concluded, \u201Calbeit with some reluctance\u201D, that a writ of habeas corpus must be issued, and ordered the release of Mr Mohebbi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat result was not in the minds of the drafters of section 60. That provision was written into the Act in 1999. I sat on the select committee that considered the bill, and I cannot recall even discussing the possibility of such wilful non-cooperation leaving New Zealand exposed to the release from detention of such an individual. The Supplementary Order Paper will enable a judge, not the Immigration Service, to extend the warrant of commitment where the person\u2019s own action or inaction either directly or indirectly results in the person being unable to leave New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I want to mention that another individual was released by the District Court as a result of the Mohebbi decision. That individual is back in custody but, I have to say, in terrible circumstances. That individual is facing charges following the shooting of a Manurewa woman in her backyard almost 3 weeks ago. Although those are only charges at this stage, they serve to highlight the danger associated with our not addressing this important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI believe that the House is quite right to allow the Committee of the whole House to extend its consideration of the Immigration Amendment Bill to include a matter that is not normally within its ambit. I therefore call on members of the House to support this motion. Again, I thank members of United Future, the National Party, and New Zealand First for setting aside politics on this occasion, and agreeing to address this urgent matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc82ad669ce6405e9f26f724792dea4e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc82ad669ce6405e9f26f724792dea4e\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Immigration has outlined to the House the reasons for this Supplementary Order Paper 131, which does not meet the requirements under the Standing Orders for its inclusion in the Immigration Amendment Bill. The National Party will be supporting the changes proposed in the Supplementary Order Paper, but by no means do we appreciate or approve of the manner in which the Minister has handled this important matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Minister has told the House that an individual was released by the courts under a habeas corpus finding 3 weeks ago\u2014nearly a month ago. The court released a man who is, to say the least, an undesirable individual, and today the Minister rocks up and thinks she will get Parliament to support her legislation. Well, we are going to support the proposed Supplementary Order Paper because, clearly, there is a problem. But the Minister has caused an even bigger problem by sitting on her backside for nearly 4 weeks after finding out that this problem existed. By her own admission, on 7 August this year the High Court made its ruling, and here we are, into the month of September, and the Minister has asked us this morning to treat this matter as urgent. I want to know from that Minister how it can be that nearly a month after this person was released she finally decides to tell Parliament that she has a problem, and she wants Parliament to help her solve it. I say to the Minister today that although we will cooperate with the passage of the Supplementary Order Paper, we condemn the fact that the Minister has waited for a month, with this person roaming the streets. We have already been told by the Minister today that other individuals have been released who are a danger to public safety. The Minister should have dealt with this matter with much greater expedition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI will tell the House about the nature of the letter she sent to the Leader of the Opposition this morning. In it she says that this is an important matter, and apologises for the late notice\u2014well, that is no good. She says that the reason for it is that Cabinet approved the Supplementary Order Paper yesterday, and it has been approved by the Government caucuses this morning. Well, there are several matters that come out of that. First of all, why has Cabinet taken so long on such an important matter? This matter could have gone to Cabinet after the decision was made by the court. It is a simple, simple matter to deal with. The Minister must have known that it might need to be dealt with in that way. She was represented at the court hearing, and the advice given to her officials must have been that they were likely to lose this matter in court. I fail to believe that the competent counsel representing the Minister\u2014not the department\u2014would not have forewarned her that this matter would be lost in court. Justice Chambers\u2019 reasoning in his decision is crystal-clear, and I cannot believe that Crown counsel would not have said to the Minister: \u201CLook, we\u2019ll go through the motions, but he\u2019s going to let the guy out.\u201D The Minister should have said to the next Cabinet meeting that she had a problem, that this guy had been let out the previous week, and that she wanted to deal with this matter urgently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIf she had picked up the phone, rung me up, and said she wanted to get this thing before the House, I would have given her my cooperation. I know that Mr Prebble would have loved to have a telephone call from the Minister of Immigration\u2014it is one of the highlights of his life to get a telephone call from the Minister of Immigration\u2014and Mr Peters would have been even more pleased to get a telephone call from the Minister of Immigration. If she had just said: \u201CI\u2019ve just lost this court case, and I want to deal with it.\u201D, I am sure they would have cooperated\u2014even more so if she had rung them the week before to say: \u201CI\u2019ve got an important court case, and Crown counsel says I\u2019m going to lose.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022147438c44dcc43ee9c8b70dffc5613be\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CI\u2019m looking foolish, can you help me?\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e14f07cfbc4d4f9ba7852ff8390d96aa\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure that anyone can help the Minister when it comes to her looking foolish, but I do want to say that members on this side of the House would have been much more predisposed to help the Minister out of the hole she is in had she bothered to consult, and had she bothered even to behave competently by taking action at the earliest possible time. Instead, we have this letter that says this action was ticked off by Cabinet yesterday, and  \u201CIt was approved by the Government caucuses this morning.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI do not know which Government caucuses we are talking about here; I guess we are talking about the Labour Party caucus. Does the letter mean that the Progressive Coalition had a caucus meeting? That would have been a well-attended affair\u2014there was probably 100 percent attendance in a telephone booth somewhere over the back of Parliament! I want to know what the other caucuses are that the Minister refers to in her letter when she says they approved this matter this morning. I want to know whether the United Future party, which seems to be the Government\u2019s current lackey of choice, was consulted about this matter, and maybe Mr Adams can answer that. Mr Adams does not seem to know the answer to that. Maybe the Minister just talked to Mr Dunne, and he spoke for his caucus without actually asking it. This is an important matter. Were the Greens consulted on this? No one in the Green Party seems to know anything about it. The Minister has asked for cooperation on the basis that the Government caucuses were consulted. I want to know which parties were brought into the loop that the National Party was closed out of. Mr Peters seems to be surprised by this matter, and so does Mr Prebble. The Minister will have to do better if she wants cooperation from Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E I accept, as I have said, that Justice Chambers\u2019 decision means that the Government has a problem, and that Parliament needs to do something to rectify it. It is quite clear that Judge Blaikie was acting with the best of motives, and I have read that decision. But section 138A is clearly an inappropriate section for him to have applied here, and the solution is for section 60 to be modified. The course that is proposed by the Supplementary Order Paper, which provides for a new clause 15A in the bill, is an approach that will meet that requirement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EBut I want to say to the House that having individuals with dodgy pasts coming to New Zealand is a very serious matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f3bfb19935c4893baa2fc9072740e58\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: When did he come to New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c34bc54db04f00a0285abeb29eaafa\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: He came to New Zealand in 1997. I say to the Minister that this is not a party political matter; all parties should take this seriously. Many members here think the institution of marriage is an important one, but this fellow seems to have excessive enthusiasm in that regard, and, accordingly, has been convicted of a charge of bigamy. But the Minister has already told the House that more serious charges are faced by others who might escape under this provision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister that Parliament should take the toughest possible line. We should say to the Iranian Ambassador\u2014and I want the Minister to answer this question\u2014that it is not good enough for his Government to behave as it has behaved in this matter, whereby it has refused to supply a passport or a travel document, when other nations would have complied with a request from the New Zealand Government, without this individual having to sign an application. I want to know whether that message has been conveyed by the Government. I want it to be conveyed by Parliament this afternoon. The Iranian Ambassador had better be told. This is not a friendly act on the part of his Government, and he should be held to account for it. The Minister needs to tell him that some members in this House certainly believe that a more cooperative stance is required in future. I say to the Minister that if she wants these matters to be dealt with cooperatively, then she had better deal with them competently, early, and with consultation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00221295837fb61d411b97ce0acf87676137\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221295837fb61d411b97ce0acf87676137\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First is very willing to support the Minister of Immigration in this area. I suspect that we will have to support the Minister in this area time and time again because of the 20,000 or so overstayers we have in this country. How many of them come within this type of category or, after this issue is resolved, other categories? Because of the failure of this Government to prevent people who should not be here from coming into this country, because of it allowing people who should be removed more promptly to stay in this country, we have this dreadful situation where not only do we have massive immigration here but also we have a massive number of people who are just staying on willy-nilly, and this Labour Government is incapable of doing anything about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EParliament this afternoon has to halt its proceedings so that a special Supplementary Order Paper dealing with a certain Amir Mohebbi can be incorporated in some legislation before the House, and we can get rid of him from New Zealand. He has been here since 4 July 1997. New Zealand is an absolute soft touch. I know that one could ask who was in Government then, but all I ask is who has been in Government for the last 4 years, and has allowed him to continue to stay in New Zealand. The Labour Party has been in Government. It has been its responsibility to do something about it. [Interruption] Damien O\u2019Connor can chip away from the middle of an aisle as much as he likes; he should get into his seat and perhaps make a decent interjection. The Labour Party has been in Government for 4 years. We have heard about this for barely 30 minutes, and New Zealand First is ready to cooperate. The High Court judgment was on 7 August, which is almost a month ago, and this Government has been sitting on its hands for all that time, not doing anything about it. [Interruption] It would be interesting to see whether a lawyer or two, or three, or four\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cee3cfa98c4495d953ea85d29045889\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: How much legal aid in this case?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022782db0048dac4730aa98206374ff8aea\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister tell us whether this person was legally aided\u2014another sip at the New Zealand bowl of fairness and charity? It has been suggested that he is bigamous. Of course, in Islamic law to marry a second time is not bigamous. That is one of the problems with bringing people like this into the country. The Minister for Ethnic Affairs, Mr Carter, says we have to look after their ethnic rights and suchlike; in that case, we should not be charging them with bigamy. Mr Carter takes the view that we have to be nice to people. In Islamic law, two, three, or four marriages are permitted. If a man wants to renounce an Islamic marriage, he just has to walk around the woman three times and say: \u201CI divorce thee. I divorce thee. I divorce thee.\u201D, and he is divorced. That is the sort of culture Mr Carter supports. That is the sort of person who comes into New Zealand. It is not surprising we have some problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am sure the vast majority of people who come to New Zealand under lawful means make a worthwhile contribution to this country. New Zealand supports people coming to New Zealand under lawful means, regardless of where they come from\u2014whether they come from Iran, Iraq, England, South Africa, or China. What we get upset about time and time again\u2014and here we have highlighted it once more\u2014is someone coming to New Zealand illegally, and this Government doing nothing about it for the 4 years or so that it has been in administration. We are very concerned about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESince 4 July 1997 this person has been here, and it has just drifted on and on. It has cost the taxpayer a tremendous amount of money. It has gone before Judge Blaikie in the District Court at Manukau, then it has gone before Judge Singh. He made identical orders to Judge Blaikie\u2019s. We now have the situation under the Habeas Corpus Act. This is a person who for a while denied that Mohebbi is his name. Finally, Judge Blaikie noted that Mr Mohebbi had refused to produce a passport, despite being requested to do so. Over the past 6 years this person has given a number of explanations as to where his passport is. Most recently, he has asserted that he left his passport in Iran when he left there in the first half of 1997. He has said he boarded a plane for New Zealand with a false passport, which he destroyed before his plane landed in New Zealand. There may be good cause to doubt the truth of this account. In any event, this person has steadfastly refused to produce a passport. All that can be said is that it may be because he is simply unable to do so. Justice Chambers made it clear in the High Court that this person is deliberately flouting New Zealand\u2019s immigration law. There is no doubt that he is in the country unlawfully. He has taken advantage of the Iranian Embassy\u2019s refusal to issue a passport for him without it having an application that he has personally signed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMr Woolford, who must be one of the counsel in the case, said that is an unusual stance for an embassy to take. Normally, foreign embassies will issue, on the application of our Immigration Service, if not a passport then at least a travel document to permit their national to be removed from New Zealand and returned to their homeland. One can only say one is terribly disappointed in the attitude of the Iranian Embassy. As a result of that embassy\u2019s attitude, we now have the situation where at least one person from Iran is bringing other Iranians into disrepute. I suggest to the Iranian Ambassador, consul, or charg\u00E9 d\u2019affaires that he is not doing anything to improve New Zealand  - Iranian relations, or to improve our attitude toward Iranians as a whole, by adopting that approach. It is interesting that other embassies take the view that they will issue papers. I understand that six embassies adopt the stance of the Iranian embassy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that one consideration that a Government could take into account here\u2014it seems that no thought has been given to it\u2014is to deem in legislation a power of attorney for someone who refuses to sign an application for a passport. It might be interesting to see whether, under our law, we could sign an application for a passport on behalf of someone who was refusing to apply for one. That could be deemed to be a proper form, at least for New Zealand purposes, and therefore should be accepted by one of these six embassies that have taken the view that they will be difficult. I put that suggestion forward to the Minister, because it might be something for this Government or a subsequent Government to take into account, to try to avoid the type of problem we see here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOverall, this issue is a clear indication that the Immigration Service is grossly overworked. With the 40,000 to 60,000-plus applications for immigration to New Zealand that it has, it cannot do the job properly. That is a clear indictment on this Government and its policy of having 45,000-plus immigrants coming to New Zealand, plus another 75,000 students. That puts pressure on the immigration division. Another 75,000-plus are here on a temporary residence basis, putting the total up to about 190,000. In the year 2000, 190,000 people arrived in New Zealand for the first time. I feel terribly sorry for the Immigration Service, which has to put up with the problems given to it by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First heard about this issue this morning, and we agreed to this solution immediately. We look forward to this clause of the bill being given support, although I should make it quite clear that, as a whole, we are opposing the immigration legislation of which the bill is part. That point should be made clear, and I think it is going to be made clear by the other parties that also oppose the Immigration Amendment Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00229a039d58009140c0a80fd7be8047ef7a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229a039d58009140c0a80fd7be8047ef7a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party has not yet replied to the Minister of Immigration\u2019s letter. The reason is the Minister\u2019s letter is totally unreasonable. The situation we find ourselves in is the Minister\u2019s letter reached me just before midday today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4876c95d15a491abcfdaf49f1bfbed1\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Midday?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9d69b285db0410faf4e0f8772181bd7\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, at half past 11. We were having a caucus meeting. I got the letter. It is my understanding that it came to my office at about that time. I had commitments between then and 2 o\u2019clock, including a whole group of officials coming to see me about the State sector reform. Although the Minister\u2019s letter appears to be reasonable, and it states, for example, that she would allow me to be briefed by officials, how on earth was that going to happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EOne might say this is an open-and-shut case. Well, is it? As the judge points out, Parliament is very reluctant to put people in jail. Indeed, the right not to be arbitrarily arrested or detained is a fundamental right that is recognised in our New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and, before that, in the Magna Carta. I say to the Minister that she is treating the House with contempt, and I greatly resent it. I suspect that all parties in Parliament\u2014perhaps I should not speak for the Greens\u2014recognise that we have to have an immigration system, and that we have to have a system whereby a person who is a judge says in his judgment, which I am obliged to the Minister for sending to me, that here is a person who is flouting New Zealand\u2019s law. Indeed, I notice that a second judge has described his case as \u201Chopeless\u201D, and said that his application for substantive judicial review was \u201Cdoomed to failure\u201D. He claims not to have a passport, and the judge doubts whether even that statement is true. We have learnt further that this person is undesirable in a number of ways, including that he entered into a bigamous marriage\u2014a very evil thing to do if a person does it just to get immigration. Just think of the damage he has done to that woman!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIn saying so, yes, obviously, the House would like to patch up what appears to be a hole. But I point out to the House\u2014and I have had only a few moments to look at the amendment\u2014that this amendment actually appears to go a lot further than that. In fact, the section 60(6) in clause 15A(3) states that, basically, anyone can be held in jail: \u201CUnless the Judge considers that there are exceptional circumstances that justify the person\u2019s release, a Judge may not order the release of a person under subsection (5) if\u2014 ... (b) a direct or indirect reason for the person being unable to leave New Zealand is or was some action or inaction by the person occurring after the removal order was served.\u201D That is what is required in order to fix this position, but the Minister\u2019s provision does not say just that; it also says that the judge may not order the release of a person under subsection (5) if \u201C(a) the person is currently a refugee status claimant who claimed refugee status only after the removal order was served;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI would like to know from the Minister why she is using this emergency to extend the provision to that situation. It occurred to me that a person in that situation might be a genuine refugee. Why would we hold in jail someone who is a genuine refugee? The Minister has not answered that question. We as a Parliament do not have a chance now to examine why the Minister and her officials have extended the provision in this way. The Minister, in her speech to this House, in no way indicated to us: \u201COh, by the way, I want to extend this provision to cover another situation that  has just occurred to me.\u201D I say to the House, quite seriously, that the Minister appears to me to be breaking\u2014I do not know whether we could call it a convention. In my time in the House, with regard to matters of this sort, what normally happens is exactly as Mr McCully said. The Minister\u2019s office rings up and says: \u201CWe\u2019ve got a botch-up here. A man is flouting the law, and the Iranian Embassy is refusing to issue a passport.\u201D\u2014which is noted in the court case as being very unusual, and I agree with Mr McCully that we should indicate to the Iranian Embassy that the New Zealand Parliament is very unhappy with its action, which does not appear to us to be a friendly one. But that is what normally happens. The Minister has given us no reason as to why she did not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIn fact, I found her letter to be very partisan and political. The only reason she gives for failing to give us time to consider this amendment properly is that she had not taken it to Cabinet. So what? I have been rung by Ministers before they have gone to Cabinet. I have been rung by Ministers before something has gone to caucus. I have been rung and told: \u201CRichard, we\u2019ve got a real problem here. We need your assistance. Can I get the officials to come across and brief you?\u201D. The Minister chose not to do those things. I want to make it clear to the Government that that is an arrogant attitude. It is not parliamentary and it is not satisfactory. The Minister thanks the National Party for not playing politics; well, I say she is taking advantage of the National Party, because the person who is playing politics is her. She is saying that the real reason she did not brief us was she wanted to take the issue to her own party caucus committee. That is not a reason not to brief other parliamentarians. I would have liked to have a briefing, because I would have asked why the provision is being extended to include this extra category. It does not appear to be needed to get Mr Mohebbi out of the country. I say to the Minister that to spring on the House a provision to hold someone in jail, with no possibility of consultation, is not a proper way to pass legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI note the point made by the judge that the New Zealand Parliament, since time immemorial\u2014and the British Parliament\u2014has been extremely reluctant to pass a law that entitles somebody to be held in jail indefinitely. I share that reluctance. I do not want to pass a resolution that is any greater than what is required to uphold the integrity of our immigration laws. I say to the Minister that her explanation so far still leaves me with a nagging doubt that she has decided to go a bit further than is required. It may be that this addition is necessary, but it cannot be urgent. The extra additions are not required to be passed today. I say to the Minister that they should have been submitted properly and sent to a select committee, which would allow members of the public to make submissions. The Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper should have been wide enough to handle just this individual\u2019s situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI think the Minister is taking advantage of us. I want to register my very, very strong objection to the unparliamentary way that the Minister has gone about this proposal. I think we have been treated with contempt. I believe that we should have been consulted on this matter 2 weeks ago, probably, instead of a few hours ago, when it was not possible for me, because of my own commitments, to have a briefing from officials, which I would have taken if I had had the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00223c6f0a8d75d247a3b3c3658dbfc26230\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c6f0a8d75d247a3b3c3658dbfc26230\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will not be supporting this Supplementary Order Paper, which proposes to allow for the ongoing detention of migrants who have been served with a removal order and subsequently detained. In the specific case that has driven this Supplementary Order Paper, Mr Mohebbi has been denied refugee status and has been served with a removal order and detained in prison. He clearly wants to remain in New Zealand and is refusing to do anything or take any action to facilitate his removal. The circumstances that have led to this situation with Mr Mohebbi appear to be specific to the requirement of the Iranian Embassy. It appears from the High Court judgment of 7 August that this situation is unique, but that it has exposed a lacuna in the law. As a result this Supplementary Order Paper has been proposed by the Government to remedy the situation. However, the Supplementary Order Paper makes a significant change to the law that will deprive people of their rights and allow for unlimited ongoing detention. It also appears to breach the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, and possibly the Human Rights Act and other international conventions for the protection of migrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens are not prepared to support a Supplementary Order Paper that has these effects, without allowing for intense public scrutiny through the select committee process and advice from experts in the area. We consider this to be an abuse of the process of this House. We have already had immigration legislation passed under urgency in this House that deprived people of their rights; we did not support that legislation either. This change should go to a select committee and not be passed into law without proper consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00223424bdda39f64891b3282123dd674fde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223424bdda39f64891b3282123dd674fde\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party supports this Supplementary Order Paper, which demonstrates to the public the Opposition outrage at the abuse of the parliamentary process and lack of respect to other political parties shown by this arrogant Labour Government. We will support this Supplementary Order Paper in the interests of our country, to uphold the intention of the immigration legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI cannot help but reflect on the irony of the short speech given by the Green Party member. That type of speech was given by the Hon Lianne Dalziel when she was the Labour spokesperson on immigration in Opposition. I well remember that she took every opportunity to lecture National Government members and other parliamentarians about the uncaring attitude they showed to refugee claimants and detainees. She also defended those people, saying that of course they would destroy all their papers before they landed in New Zealand. She defended those refugee claimants, and certainly opposed legislation such as she has brought into the House this afternoon\u2014which reminds me how much the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D has been practised by the Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut in supporting this Supplementary Order Paper we do want to register our strong protest and outrage at the total lack of consultation. For 3 weeks the Minister of Immigration, the Hon Lianne Dalziel, sat on this issue, and only bothered, I presume, to consult with political parties that are friendly to the Labour Government, such as United Future or the Progressive party. This issue is so important, and it affects the immigration integrity of New Zealand. The public would expect a responsible Government, to ensure this legislation passed through this House, to show respect for political Opposition parties such as National, New Zealand First, ACT, and the Greens. We have demonstrated that we are reasonable in the interests of the country, but the total lack of respect shown by the Labour Government to the Opposition parties demonstrates why we continue to have problems with legislation being rushed through this House, and then amendments having to be done swiftly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe second issue I want to bring up during this debate is the abuse by the Labour Government of the parliamentary process. This bill, which this Supplementary Order Paper is part of, was introduced on 1 July, and was considered under urgency, together with the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2) that was passed at the time. When this Immigration Amendment Bill was introduced we got a note from office of the Minister of Immigration that there would be a briefing at 4 p.m. When we turned up to the briefing, the Minister went off to a press conference. Our questions could not be fully satisfied by the officials or the Associate Minister of Immigration. But half an hour later we were forced back into the House to debate the Immigration Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EAt the same time the other piece of immigration legislation was rushed through the House under urgency, again because of the Minister\u2019s incompetent leadership. The Immigration Service found itself facing a backlog of over 20,000 immigration applications. Because of that rushed piece of legislation, over 40,000 people found their applications had lapsed, with certain exceptions. Even today I continue to receive letters, faxes, and emails from those people who have been deprived of any reason. Their applications were accepted in good faith, and the officials did not even bother to process them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis is not the first time we have seen this Minister not bothering to ensure that the Immigration Service is running properly, effectively, or efficiently; neither does she care about consulting other parties to make sure that amendments can be passed. I must also remind the public that this arrogant Labour Government has managed to conduct its affairs in such an appalling manner due to the unquestioning cooperation being given by United Future\u2014a party that had championed itself as a party of reason and common sense, and a party that wished to ensure that the proper process is observed in Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EUnited Future has, in the last 2 months, given its approval to the Government, even though the Government has been abusing the parliamentary process. Of the few United Future supporters left, I hope they will question their party\u2019s mandate in what they have promised the public, in regard to holding the Labour Government to proper procedures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to bring up my last point of highlighting the problem of this Labour Government in terms of adopting a culture of blame. Whenever there is something wrong, or it has to correct something in a hurry, the Government will refer to officials not telling it in time, or making up stories. In this case the Minister actually blamed her own Cabinet\u2014that it approved the Supplementary Order Paper only yesterday so, therefore, she could not consult the other parties. She also blamed the legislation itself for the fact that she had to introduce the Supplementary Order Paper. I want to warn the Government that the public are taking notice and know that this Labour Government no longer seems to want to take any responsibility for its actions. Whenever anything goes wrong it simply blames the officials, the Opposition parties, or other past events. I think it is about time the Labour Government stood up and took the blame for fiascos like today\u2019s  urgent introduction of a Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022e427971b2b674979b5418060f82dad50\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e427971b2b674979b5418060f82dad50\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Immigration)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Immigration: I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Immigration Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259a259ac816543909a936c22aa9356a3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b4fa60ad2c9940b4b23131e044fa0d7e\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c2194bf3d7e47aeb98bdb80a807fad5\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00221854bfaa7c6b472b95a36a3978037e54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221854bfaa7c6b472b95a36a3978037e54\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I hope you will allow ample time for debate of this legislation, now also including the Supplementary Order Paper that the members have had little time to examine. I hope we will have time to raise that during this debate. During the last 2 months the Labour Government has brought in a series of Immigration Amendment Bills to such an extent that most people are confused about what these amendments are. So I have introduced two amendments to this title clause. First, I suggest that we should insert the words \u201CImmigration Amendment (Workload Management) Bill\u201D. The reason I suggest that is that although the Minister introduced this Immigration Amendment Bill as a sweeping change, saying that from now on we will have a new policy that migrants can be welcome in New Zealand only if they can contribute to New Zealand\u2014of course, we know that that was the intention of the immigration system for a long time\u2014the interesting thing is that during the select committee stage the officials told us that the changes really were superficial. It really was only a change to give them additional tools\u2014whenever they face a build-up of workload, they can use this invitation to apply tools to reject the expressions of interest that accumulate in the pool, and also by using a lapsing provision from time to time, to invalidate the number of applications or expressions of interest in the immigration pool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI thought the Minister might not have given clear instruction to the official who told the select committee that this bill was really in substance to continue with the existing immigration points system, but only that it will be less transparent, and introduce additional tools to enable officials to lapse an application. It would be more appropriate to signal this bill\u2019s title as the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Workload Management) Bill\u201D. At least it would be a bit more informative of the intention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI have also discovered this article in the Socialist Worker Monthly Review that says: \u201CThe Labour Government\u2019s new racist policy will see Asian immigrants on the current waiting list told they are not welcome in New Zealand.\u201D The article went on to say: \u201CThese new rules will clearly advantage migrants from the US, Britain and South Africa white Europeans. A fact admitted by immigration consultants.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ESo I have also submitted a second amendment to the title clause, saying that the title of this bill should be the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Asians Beware) Bill\u201D. Potential Asian migrants should be made aware of the changes in this bill, because they need to take great care before they incur a lot of time and expenditure in submitting a so-called expression of interest. Many submissions that we heard in the select committee, including from the Human Rights Commission and the Auckland Law Society, made it clear that they believed that this immigration legislation, no matter how it was worded, would have the practical impact that migrants from Asian countries or non-English-speaking backgrounds would be disadvantaged. I have also introduced this amendment to make sure this Immigration Amendment Bill\u2019s intention is clear, by inserting the words \u201CAsians Beware\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Socialist Worker Monthly Review also went on to say that migrants also would have a greater chance of acceptance if they could pre-arrange a job prior to arrival. Therefore, according to a prominent immigration consultant, David Cooper, this requirement would again favour European applicants who fit into the workplace.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022da8f17db3bee4a9bb38df2d8f228cb65\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da8f17db3bee4a9bb38df2d8f228cb65\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E It is unusual to take a call on the title debate, simply because it is such a narrow debate, but I will not sit in this House and allow that member to produce an amendment, without a comment from me. The suggestion to insert the words \u201CAsians Beware\u201D is insulting and contemptible, and that member does her people no good whatsoever, by presenting this fictitious, nasty piece of work in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1957d64e1444c7fbc519d3bae8b6359\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: It is in the Socialist Worker Monthly Review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068c67b18cf24cd696170da6200422f1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is interesting that the member uses the Socialist Worker magazine to promote her cause. I have not read the particular article that the member refers to, but I want to tell this House that there is nothing in this Immigration Amendment Bill that in any way impacts on one particular group over another. This bill is all about changing a general skills points system that gave people residence in this country, regardless of whether their skills were even needed in this country, and regardless of whether they would ever get work in this country. I could table 100 articles for every one that that member has tabled, showing the cases of despair from Asian people who have moved from their own countries to New Zealand believing that they have an opportunity and a future in this country. For goodness\u2019 sake, the Minister of Health has had to expend\u2014I ask the Minister of Health to help me out\u2014$11 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273b003e1a2db489a8c5643d11ea954cf\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: $11.9 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a5c2848e976471f930a1a6ffdd2a7f7\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014on a programme just to help a few of the immigrant doctors who came into this country from other countries, under that member\u2019s party\u2019s policy that allowed those people to come in without any chance of ever working. This legislation is about making sure that skilled migration benefits skilled migrants, benefits this country, and it is insulting of that member to suggest anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00228c786d4fce7e4e589ce66f028adb5ce6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c786d4fce7e4e589ce66f028adb5ce6\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E My advice to the Minister in the chair is to have a nice cup of tea and a lie-down before she does herself an injury. It is going to be a long afternoon and she needs to compose herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b59632a3a724dad9489116aee0c314e\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member should take something to cheer him up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229698230b859e4e6588d7bb8e3c928f41\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Seeing the Minister of Health looking silly in the House always cheers me up. She would know full well that in the absence of some sensible decision-making by her the provisions contained in the bill will not do anything to stop medical practitioners coming into New Zealand, being unable to work, and \u201Cforced to drive taxis\u201D\u2014to use the expression advanced by the Minister in the chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c876cef15d248a59398f2b65bba4e37\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: Fortunately, we\u2019ve fixed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225321d1c619e24d5cbf0716f92fdbf8be\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: While the Minister of Health\u2019s interjection is not germane to the title debate, I will respond by saying that she will be under scrutiny in that area. She has dined out for a long time on the notion of inheriting somebody else\u2019s problem. The clock has ticked well past the point where she can pretend that somebody else is responsible for the shortcomings in her portfolio. I have constituents who would like to work in the health system and are appropriately qualified to do so. I know that the inaction of that Minister has a lot more to do with those problems than any previous immigration policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe bill before the Committee today, the Immigration Amendment Bill\u2014the principal Act being the Immigration Act\u2014has very important implications for New Zealand. It covers an area where people make important decisions about their future, believing that they will be dealing with a party that will behave honourably. The concerns expressed by my colleague Pansy Wong might not be concerns that the Minister will be enthralled to hear in the Chamber today. Nevertheless, they are real concerns felt by real people making life decisions and believing that they are not being dealt with honourably by the party on the other side\u2014namely, the New Zealand Government, and, specifically, the Minister of Immigration. I want to tell the Minister that this debate needs to be taken seriously. The scrutiny Opposition members will place upon her actions in relation to this bill, and her subsequent actions as Minister\u2014because this legislation will give her considerable power to make decisions\u2014will focus particularly around whether the New Zealand Government is portraying itself as a party that does business honourably. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EIn looking at the title, it is important that members understand the historical context of this legislation. In many ways, the contents of the bill have previously been in New Zealand law. The bill contains policies that, in large measure, New Zealand has seen in action during the 1980s. The powers provided by the bill are, very substantially, powers that have been in the hands of Ministers in the past and were found wanting. They depend in very large measure on the ability of Ministers and officials to behave honourably, to read marketplaces well, and to execute changes quickly and professionally. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe reason that the previous legislation, the Immigration Act, was passed was that there was thought to be too much room for uncertainty and discretion in a system that depended upon Ministers and officials to make decisions. It was thought desirable that there should be greater clarity and certainty for parties whose applications were being considered by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u002207016023e2b2468a8dbb6cf343a9d19f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207016023e2b2468a8dbb6cf343a9d19f\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First opposes this legislation, which allows the continuation of the Government\u2019s current policy of allowing about 45,000 immigrants per annum into New Zealand under various residency policies. New Zealand is under great stress because of the high levels of immigrants entering this country under the policies currently set out by the Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThe Government needs to take stock of the following issues that are affecting our country. The first is the effect on the country of the estimated $7,954 per year it costs for a refugee to stay in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea2c7e36cdbc44eb8410c301683bcbdb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It seems that members are going much wider than the title debate allows. This is one of those debates that is meant to be strictly controlled. If members wish to move off this clause, we will deal with it and go into the substance of the bill. The member should restrict his debate to the title only please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2b9883b1ce447ea80d7577b6053f589\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY\u003C/span\u003E: Reasons for opposing this legislation are that the number of new residency permits granted should be in the vicinity of 10,000 per annum\u2014not the figure set out in the Government\u2019s policy and allowed to continue in terms of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ebc63bcdf6844ffae02b434d7f3db68\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019re not talking about the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022369b97269a1a4c39a62e82a25f1c5442\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: You carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022734584397a5a4c55828a863490626495\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Mr Prebble. For example, the Auckland District Law Society gave evidence that the immigration system cannot be trusted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c96c13b6fe844974a8e7b6d89805fcb0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must stick strictly to the title of this bill and not wander outside it. The Standing Orders and Speakers\u2019 Rulings require the Chair to stick strictly to that ruling. I have allowed a little bit of leeway both ways, but we need to move on to the title only; otherwise we shall move into the bill itself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eaae198db154aa0bda36108b0d562fb\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve had two wide speeches from the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdcc7e390d854b78a87b91eaf7aa5d7c\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Prebble. Coming back to the title, I point out that New Zealand First will oppose the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b5473b234eb4886a90053efdc2ecc5b\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Just tell us why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022114faf1dd8784ee4ab723950811fdcc9\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY\u003C/span\u003E: OK. The reason we are opposing the title is the stress put on this country by a huge underground and fraudulent immigration industry in New Zealand, an example of which is the fake English language certificate scam revealed in the Assignment programme last year. There are many more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThe Department of Labour\u2019s 2002 briefing, and the incoming Minister of Immigration Service, found that the repercussions of the Government\u2019s immigration policy were creating undue strain. Violent crime committed by Asians has risen 67 percent in the last 5 years, compared with only 9 percent by Caucasians, 9 percent by M\u0101ori, and 5 percent by Pacific Islanders. Violent crimes committed by those born in China have risen by 297 percent in the last 5 years. Crimes of dishonesty by Asians have risen 167 percent in the last 5 years, compared to a drop of 5.4 percent amongst M\u0101ori, 4.8 percent amongst Caucasians, and a 5 percent rise amongst Pacific Islanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EExtortion-type crimes committed by Asians in Auckland City have increased 760 percent in the last 3 years, to the point where one Auckland judge asked whether it was \u201Ckidnap week\u201D. Senior constables from around the country are saying that Asian crime is a huge problem. Top Chinese officials state that young Asians are getting hooked on crime in this country, and still the Minister denies that there is a problem that needs to be addressed under this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori population, of course, is under threat. M\u0101ori must be concerned about the current rate of immigration into the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002220e6aaee5d604c8b93174e5306914145\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220e6aaee5d604c8b93174e5306914145\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Before I start to speak to the title, I thank the Minister for allowing me a briefing from officials about the Supplementary Order Paper, which we will get to later. As a result of that briefing, the ACT party supports the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ETaking the bill as a whole, I believe that the Committee should seriously consider the amendment suggested by Pansy Wong. I wonder whether New Zealand First members have read the bill, because one of the two speakers has to be wrong. Pansy Wong says this bill is directed at reducing the amount of Asian migration into the country, and that is why she will vote against it, but New Zealand First members say that they will vote against it because there are too many Asians in the country. One of the speakers has to be right, or wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI do not know whether New Zealand First supports the amendment, but reading the New Zealand First minority view to the committee, one has to hand it to them. One of the reasons they will vote against the bill is that \u201Cthe system proposed by this legislation could be used in a discriminatory or racist manner\u201D. That is exactly what I thought Mr Peters has been advocating. Surely he has been saying that we have too many Asians in New Zealand. Here is a bill, which, he says\u2014shock, horror\u2014could be used in a discriminatory manner. That is what the party wants it to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI just come back to the question of whether they should be supporting Pansy Wong\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b3868cfb837467b87f50cda01b99d86\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member who was just speaking to this bill claims something that New Zealand First has never talked about, and the New Zealand First leader has not talked about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2c39cb9d3854a91a8119b9b408bb2c5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c73ea1345a404c15831be87758969770\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I assure the member that I was at a meeting where he most certainly did that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EHowever, I want to come back to the bill itself and say that what it actually does is move away from a points system, which was designed to be neutral, and goes back to a system of using discretions. I have been in this Parliament long enough to remember that immigration system, and the fact that it did not work. It has been abandoned by all the immigration nations. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia have all concluded that those methods do not work. I say that the Immigration Amendment Bill will have an impact on who comes to New Zealand. There is no doubt that it will discriminate against Asians who are attempting to migrate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI also take up the point made by Mr McCully that to move from one country to another is a huge thing. It is a very big commitment, and people have put their lives on hold for years. Those people waiting on the list were given, in effect, an undertaking that because they had the number of points and had met the criteria, they would be able to come. As a result of this bill, those people can be simply wiped off\u2014there is no way of getting around that. It is my view\u2014[Interruption]. That is why I am supporting the amendment. The people who will be wiped off\u2014and I want the Minister to confirm this\u2014will be predominantly Chinese. Over half of them\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958d099969cf47a9a867ed0d7d489a81\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No, I never said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6233045521a4fbcab4bec2863a2cd8b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I know the Minister has not. I am saying it. I want the Minister to get up and refute it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203005e9a3125435397d23fc8d7fbcce9\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It is not true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e200649ba21a4061bca4d7dc1bbfc54b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says from the chair that it is not true. Seeing that she is able to make that statement, I would be very interested to know whether she will take another call and tell us what the ethnic make up is of the people who will be taken off the list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022052a25e423b44fda89de2e2a21ebb328\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Not in the title debate, dear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b524defc5034fa189c1ebfb190dfa9f\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: It is very nice of the Minister to call me \u201Cdear\u201D. It will probably start rumours around the whole country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294969b2b4a9c4a7db69fa8a50289ef82\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s defamatory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9a0af11e8504ebea47fcb265f16d95b\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Some say it is defamatory, but I prefer to take it in a different way. The question most certainly is relevant, because without a clear statement from the Minister, the ACT party intends to support the amendment moved by Pansy Wong. We think this bill is a knee-jerk reaction to the campaigning of Mr Winston Peters and his party. We do not believe that the Government had any intention of introducing this bill prior to the great shock it had last election. We think that this bill has been designed for base party political reasons to try to shore up the Labour Party\u2019s vote in some parts of New Zealand, which is being carved off by New Zealand First. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI note that New Zealand First is still voting against this bill, but it is my view that this is a bill Mr Peters himself could have drafted without any difficulty. I think Mr Peters is in favour of the bill, due to the fact that he thinks it is discriminatory, and for that reason I am intending to vote against it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u002262df0e13a413418b864c74ab93283931\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262df0e13a413418b864c74ab93283931\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call on the title, but after hearing some of the words from the Opposition I decided that I would. Perhaps we should call the bill the \u201CUnited Future (A Breath of Fresh Air) Bill\u201D, because people in this nation have been waiting for a party such as United Future to arise in their midst, and members will note that it is rising. The bill should be titled the \u201CUnited Future (A Breath of Fresh Air) Bill\u201D because it is refreshing for the people of New Zealand to have a party that can look at legislation as it comes through the House and decide whether it is best for the country. That is what we were elected to this Parliament for. We were elected to make decisions that would make a better New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWhat a name \u201CUnited Future\u201D is for a party that wants a better future for New Zealand, and immigration will always be part of the build-up of New Zealand. We welcome people from all races into this nation, but we have a culture and a set of standards. There will be different times and different seasons in our nation when we will need different types of skills, and that is what this bill is all about\u2014the \u201CUnited Future (A Breath of Fresh Air) Bill\u201D. I make the point that there are many people walking the streets of New Zealand\u2014the man on the street and the woman on the street\u2014who will welcome this bill because, again, we are building a great New Zealand with a united future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002207d33f9281034974ad49e93e25792bc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207d33f9281034974ad49e93e25792bc5\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2917af2b95c411d9e7d79d9e812b325\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2917af2b95c411d9e7d79d9e812b325\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking on the title I would like to question the member who has just resumed his seat. Mr Adams was a very, very good rally driver. I even competed against him. But, when it comes to understanding what he has just told this Committee, he has missed it horribly. He has just told the Committee that this legislation will enable New Zealand to discriminate on the basis of culture. He told the Committee that we have a certain culture here and that we want people who fit that culture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat is the problem with the title of this bill\u2014the Immigration Amendment Bill. It tells us nothing of what the legislation does. When we look at it, we see that the heart of this legislation is the power it gives the Minister to issue an invitation to apply for residence. Clause 6 gives the Minister that power. That power, in itself, gives the Minister the power to discriminate, and that is why the title is totally off course. It does not capture what this bill enables.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EOne way of accurately capturing what the bill does would be to have the bill entitled the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Invitation to Apply) Bill\u201D, because one of the fundamental things the bill does is set up a system enabling the Minister to invite people to apply for residence. That is one neutral title that would be possible, but from listening to the submissions at the select committee I suggest a more appropriate title might be the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Corruption) Bill\u201D, because several key players, such as the Auckland District Law Society, warned us that this legislation will lead to corruption. It gives the Minister such unfettered power and it gives her officials, who are already under investigation for allegedly lying in unison, huge power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EMy good colleague Pansy Wong has already suggested that the bill should be the \u201CImmigration Amendment (Asians Beware) Bill\u201D. Again, that captures the huge concern of the Opposition, which is what the United Future member, who has just resumed his seat, seems to overlook totally. With the best of intentions maybe one could make this system work, but the problem is that in politics it never works that way. In politics and in Government, if we run risks of discrimination or if we run risks of murky, non-transparent systems, we will get corruption. One of the reasons New Zealand is free of corruption is that we have transparent systems. But if we were to bring in this kind of measure\u2014and we heard United Future talking about using this legislation to enable immigrants to better match our culture\u2014we would see the very dangers of discrimination. That is why another possible title for this bill is \u201CImmigration Amendment (Discrimination) Bill\u201D. That is not being derogatory, because it gives the Minister the power to discriminate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EUnited Future should think very carefully\u2014before it supports this legislation\u2014about that issue, because its members, I believe, are good Christian, common-sense people. But how can good Christian people consider it acceptable to say that, just because some prospective immigrant\u2019s culture is different from ours\u2014no matter what the immigrant\u2019s skills are or how valuable a contribution he or she could make to New Zealand\u2014that person should be discriminated against and not be invited to apply for residence? That is what was implied by the previous contribution from United Future. I want United Future members, as Christian people, to think about what they have just said to the Committee about that potential to discriminate\u2014even on the basis of beliefs. There could be a Minister who was anti-Christian and who might discriminate against people if they were fundamentalists. This legislation enables people to be discriminated against for all kinds of reasons. I am not sure whether United Future really believes that that view is good for New Zealand and good for the decent society that we hope New Zealand should be. That is why the title of this bill is totally inadequate; it does not capture what this legislation will enable this Government to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022caccda04772f4573a1903686e797bc84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022caccda04772f4573a1903686e797bc84\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224370de4a44ad4d6bb7f0b26043c762aa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022788352d629b647dfb5dc61eb7cc78404\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The first amendment in the name of Pansy Wong to clause 1 is not allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b513780ecb432a86d205f4d9a30b83\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I seek clarification as to why you rejected my amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a04e0fe5bfd1422dadef4e4bf7fa8c6e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The matter is very clear in Speaker\u2019s ruling 15/2, in the Supplement to Speakers\u2019 Rulings. The amendment does not objectively describe the contents of the bill, in any way. It is wrong on another count too, because it criticises the bill itself. I rule the amendment out, and that is that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc13e374bfae40edad61e35c22ab2604\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I point out that I sat through the submission process in the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. In fact, the majority of the submissions\u201490 percent\u2014brought up the point that, as a result of this bill, migrants from Asian country would be discriminated against. It was very clear through the select committee process that that was the practical outcome of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022449970d632cb476a931362fd14252d6f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that, but the wording in that amendment is not a correct description of the bill, in any way. I accordingly rule it out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Pansy Wong to clause 1(1) be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003Eto insert, after the word \u201CAmendment\u201D, the words \u201C(work load management)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aebb20a642034b46bd9c8e39ff1046c7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b12373bb7ed4469854970402e003803\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of Dail Jones to clause 1(1) is not a serious description of the bill, and accordingly I rule it out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f1e08eb11d94789bd6966eedea52e9e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cf33ddb6f6ce445dbeb0bdc2ee5e56e4\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022d011540dec3044e5a3a0796f5c15e6c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d011540dec3044e5a3a0796f5c15e6c3\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I will also put forward an amendment to this part of the bill. One of the constant criticisms that we heard from the submitters\u2014who actually represent 90 percent of the submissions\u2014who came to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee expressed concern that this bill, if passed, would damage the credibility of New Zealand\u2019s reputation in terms of confidence and the certainty of our immigration system. I think this is very important, and I particularly want United Future to consider it. United Future is a party that claims to be concerned about the interests of New Zealand and our standing in the international world, so I want its members to consider and support this amendment, to add a new subclause to clause 3: \u201C(d) ensure the transparency and certainty of immigration policies to maintain the international credibility of the New Zealand immigration system.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI cannot imagine that any party or anybody would not accept an amendment for something that is very obvious. The immigration system is a very important integral part of the legislation of a country. Part of the concern about the immigration system undoubtedly is about the lack of transparency. When an immigration policy, or the way it is being implemented, shows a lack of transparency and a lack of integrity, then undoubtedly the doors will be wide open to corruption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E One can imagine that, before very long, New Zealand will see a market price for obtaining letters of invitation for people to apply. As the Human Rights Commission stated to the select committee, those letters of invitation to apply are unprecedented anywhere in the world. The commission did not know of anywhere else where that mechanism exists. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Immigration Service is already under a cloud because of the investigation into the \u201Clie in unison\u201D matter. What confidence can the public and potential applicants have, when additional powers are awarded to the service so that it does not have to explain to potential applicants why their applications will not even be considered, why they will not receive letters of invitation, and why there will be no appeal? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe were told during the select committee process that 67 percent of the appeals by applicants would succeed because of different technical interpretations between the Immigration Service and the applicant. So that is a very, very serious issue facing New Zealand. Does Parliament want to pass legislation that will increase the possibility of our Immigration Service being tarnished by that lack of transparency, so that the doors will open wide for corruption and corruptive practices? When that image is damaged internationally it will cost New Zealand dearly, in terms of taking measures to regain the reputation of operating a transparent and credible immigration system, in which both potential migrants and New Zealanders will know what criteria are being exercised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI hope that the various parties in the House will see this amendment as necessary to maintain the credibility of our country\u2019s reputation if we are serious about attracting quality migrants. Those people would not want to apply under a system where they might spend lots of time and make financial commitments, without knowing why they might not even be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00221fcdda2a1e35462a9e6ee78b18154556\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fcdda2a1e35462a9e6ee78b18154556\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First has indicated its opposition to the Immigration Amendment Bill. Part 1 covers clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, and clause 3, \u201CObjects of Act\u201D. There are no wider or more important provisions in any legislation than the objects of that legislation, which are covered here in paragraphs (a), (b), and (c) of clause 3. I mention at this stage that about five New Zealand First members are hoping to take the call in this debate, particularly on this part, which is of vital importance to New Zealand First and to the people of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI have put forward an amendment to clause 3(c). That paragraph states: \u201Callow for Government residence policy that will better enable the selection and active recruitment of migrants who can make the best possible contribution to New Zealand and settle well in New Zealand.\u201D My amendment adds: \u201Csuch migrants to be people who have jobs approved for them before they come to New Zealand, such jobs being real vacancies and not jobs taken from existing workers in New Zealand.\u201D That was the promise we had from the Minister of Immigration when she introduced this bill. She told us then that the days of immigrants having to have points were being abolished, and that she would match job vacancies with people coming to New Zealand. She has found, of course, that that policy of hers was doomed to failure even as she uttered the words, because the Immigration Service is in an absolute mess. It has anywhere between 40,000 and 80,000 applications. It has written off 20,000 applications, about another 8,000 are falling by the wayside, and it has even lost some in its warehouse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs a matter of interest, New Zealand First\u2019s view is very close to that of the Council of Trade Unions. That is hardly surprising, because we want to make sure, as does the Council of Trade Unions, that people who come to New Zealand actually have a proper job. We do not want people coming to New Zealand as doctors and ending up as taxi-drivers. This bill, as it stands, does not do anything about that. We want to make sure that, as the Council of Trade Unions stated in 2.1(a) of its comments, with regard to the objects of the legislation: \u201CThere needs to be a balance between immigration and investment in skill development, training, and pre-employment initiatives for those already here.\u201D That is New Zealand First\u2019s policy. The Council of Trade Unions is quoting New Zealand First policy. It goes on to state that it supports immigration policies that are consistent with workforce and skill development strategies, rather than those that act as quick fixes to recruitment and retention problems. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMr Rodney Hide is interjecting. He supports the Business New Zealand policy, which is to bring into New Zealand as many people as possible, bring down wages, and allow the rich, who support the ACT party, to do very well from New Zealand having a low-wage policy. That is the ACT party\u2019s policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b83f4338c81c4a84a97e9aaeea8799a1\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: No one supports the ACT party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224203f2d4fc4c49f5bf4446090094933a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Darren Hughes, the member for Otaki, can smile, but that is the policy he supports, because the Labour Party supports the Business New Zealand policy of ripping off the workers. That is what it boils down to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First have made it very clear that we want people to come to New Zealand, but we want to make sure\u2014[Interruption] I have been called worse than that; it does not worry me; that is that member\u2019s sense of humour. New Zealand First has made it quite clear that we support the Council of Trade Unions\u2019 view that the issues of long-term labour supply are intrinsically linked to education and skill development, fertility, economic development\u2014including workforce development\u2014innovation, technology diffusion, wages and conditions, and so forth. The support of the Council of Trade Unions for this legislation is very, very qualified support. It is telling the Labour Party, as are the workers of this country, that the workers of this country are concerned that their jobs are on the line. Their jobs are going to overseas immigrants who provide cheap labour, and that is supported by ACT and Business New Zealand. ACT, Business New Zealand, and the Labour Party can join together and support this bill, but New Zealand First is concerned that workers\u2019 rights are left out of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022025d4caed4d1441b8e1a759a45edff64\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What about the workers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263da81c7cfb045b6a10075100b50024a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: One never hears anyone from the Labour Party saying \u201CWhat about the workers?\u201D any more. Members of that party do not care two hoots about the workers of this country. As the Council of Trade Unions has indicated, and as we have said in the 15 principles of New Zealand First, the basic principles of the foundation of our party, priority should be given to immigrants who have the skills and qualifications necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea9194ff95f74adfaa3756c28c54b3d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea9194ff95f74adfaa3756c28c54b3d8\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of United Future, I rise to take a call on Part 1 of the Immigration Amendment Bill. First of all, I would like to say to the Hon Lockwood Smith that New Zealand does indeed have a culture, and one that I am proud of. People who immigrate to our country need to know that they need to fit in with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EClause 3 states that the Act will provide the legislative framework to enable residence policy to be based on New Zealand\u2019s needs, rather than on an entitlement system. New Zealand does have needs. I am an employer. Currently, I cannot get mechanics. Therefore, we need an immigration policy that is based on what we currently need in the country. That is just common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f09d9ad3aa442f6a28074dd58c1caf9\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Conflict of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c097fd3e8f044a78a39dde9963b5974\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Hide whether we want workers and the economy to prosper. Do we want workers to be able to work here? I thought that was ACT party policy. The first thing to note is that, unlike other portfolio areas that are founded on fairly prescriptive legislation, the real substance of immigration policy is contained in the standard operating procedures and criteria that are collected in a manual and used by immigration officers while assessing applications. This bill facilitates that process, rather than spelling out what immigration policy will be, and that is why it may be difficult for some to understand the impact of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EIt puzzles me that New Zealand First would vote against the bill, because, as clause 3 states, it enhances the Immigration Act as a mechanism by which residence policy can be facilitated. So if there is a miracle\u2014and I do happen to believe in miracles\u2014and New Zealand First is ever in a position once again to sit on the Treasury benches and control immigration policy, this measure would assist it to introduce its policy. So why on earth would those members vote against it? Never mind\u2014politics is a strange business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe objects clause also explains that the idea behind the bill is to allow the Government to get smarter about whom it selects as residents. If one looks at New Zealand First policy from the last election, it becomes quite clear that it should be supporting this bill. Maybe the promises made at election time do not mean anything. The New Zealand First policy stated: \u201CNew Zealand First will give greater priority to immigrants who have the skills and qualifications necessary to further regional, economic, and social goals.\u201D That is exactly the kind of policy this bill facilitates. New Zealand First is clearly betraying all those misguided people who voted for it at the last election, by not supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWhat is its excuse? New Zealand First stated in the select committee report that this bill does not reduce the overall number of immigrants into this country. That is a completely misleading defence, given that that is quite outside the intended scope of the bill. New Zealand First is trying to cover the fact that the Government is doing something about immigration with the help of United Future. [Interruption] Can we fix it? Yes, we have. This was one of Winston Peters\u2019 three fingers in the last campaign; by not supporting this bill, New Zealand First is giving two fingers to the voters. The object of the bill is not to reduce the overall number of people who gain residence here, but, essentially, to add a new filter to the application process to enable the selection and recruitment of migrants who can make the best possible contribution to New Zealand. Although the Government is inviting people to apply, only the number of applications provided for in the New Zealand immigration programme will be considered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe Government does need to do a much better job at communicating the objectives of the bill to the public and prospective applicants. Reading through the select committee report, I found it interesting to note the number of concerns about the bill put forward by submitters, but the number of amendments that emerged as a result was quite modest. This is because those concerns were effectively addressed, as one would realise if one understood the objects of this bill and the context of immigration policy. But I was quite happy to see that the committee also recognised the need to keep applicants informed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e6a406a4e94492920cc586cc5bc65f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e6a406a4e94492920cc586cc5bc65f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak briefly to Part 1. I am looking at the amendment in Pansy Wong\u2019s name. I think she has made some good points. If we can accommodate those, then we certainly will attempt to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI think it is important for people to realise that the bill and the objects in clause 3 are about explaining what is being replaced with what. The general skills category, which was originally introduced in 1991, is being replaced with a new skilled migrant category. This bill facilitates that particular change. It does change the way we do things. Instead of the process starting off with an application that leads to absolute entitlement to residence in our country, we are moving away from entitlement to an \u201Cinvitation to apply\u201D situation based on people\u2019s expressions of interest that is run on a points system. To put it bluntly, this is the best of both worlds. This is the best of what preceded the 1991 changes and, indeed, the 1991 skills category, as it was known at the time\u2014subsequently it was changed to the general skills category. A points system that is very transparent and open will be the precursor to the invitation to apply. It will not be based on an individual officer\u2019s discretion as to the particular place that the individual came from, where that person was born, or his or her religious background\u2014or any of the nonsense we have heard from the other side. That was made very clear at the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe reason we are establishing this legislative framework to move away from the entitlement model is that all through the 1990s, and, indeed, still today, people have moved here under the skills category who can never be employed in New Zealand in the field of expertise in which they have qualifications or experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b542aeb852b14ea2939f6f693f384af8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Well, change the points system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289086765f1b847bb8530357abcc7d3ec\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The member interjects to say that the Government of the day changed the rule. Yes, it is true. In 1991 the skills category came into effect. Four years later, in 1995, the requirement that individuals, before they got their immigration points, be registered with the bodies they are required to be registered with in order to practise in New Zealand was finally implemented, but it did not help a single skilled migrant who did not need registration in law but needed it in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo I am a little bit sick and tired of people telling only half the story. Literally thousands of people in this country believed that New Zealand had something to offer them. They sold up their homes, they moved their families from one side of the world to the other, and today they are disappointed and disgusted with the decision they made because they believed that New Zealand wanted them, needed them, and had something to offer them, when we had nothing to offer them when they arrived in this country. The 1990s were a very sad and sorry time in immigration policy in this country. Those who were responsible for immigration policy during the 1990s should look to themselves before making criticism of a policy that is designed to ensure that New Zealand\u2019s interests are paramount. In determining that New Zealand\u2019s interests are paramount, we are ensuring that the benefit will be shared with the skilled migrants, because the skilled migrants will be coming to New Zealand because we need them here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00228fcf052dd9d044b9a2c60034d0ebbe10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fcf052dd9d044b9a2c60034d0ebbe10\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E Listening to the early part of the discussion on Part 1, I was intrigued to see that Mr Adams, on behalf of United Future, was very quick to put up his hand and claim some responsibility jointly with the Minister of Immigration for this legislation. But I noted he was silent on the question I had asked earlier, which was whether his party was one of the Government caucuses referred to in the letter from the Minister that sought acquiescence in respect of Supplementary Order Paper 131, which will come before the Committee in relation to Part 2. Maybe next time Mr Adams gets to his feet he will do the Committee the courtesy of giving it an honest answer to a fair question. He stood up and claimed credit, then, in trying to work out what he was taking credit for, fumbled his way through a bunch of research unit notes, which he clearly had not read before and of which he had no understanding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI say to Mr Adams that next time he decides to address the Committee, we would be obliged to him if he was to answer the perfectly legitimate question that I asked him, which was whether the United Future caucus was one of the caucuses that the Minister has told other leaders she consulted and got approval from in relation to the Supplementary Order Paper that inserts a new clause 15A. It is a perfectly fair question. Was he awake in the caucus meeting this morning? He does not even know whether he was there, let alone whether he was awake. It looks rather good, does it not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EWhat I want to say in relation to Part 1 is that\u2014[Interruption] The member has decided to come back into the Chamber, having had Parliament retrospectively validate his presence here. If the member wants to take a call, he can take a call, but it would be the first time he made any sort of contribution in the Chamber to a subject of this complexity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E Part 1 is a very important part of this bill, because clause 3 spells out some of the objects of this legislation. The piece that I want to refer to in particular, with approval, is the statement that \u201C\u2026 New Zealand\u2019s interests are paramount, as opposed to the present entitlement model;\u201D. I am not sure what \u201Centitlement model\u201D actually means; I have heard the Minister use the expression a few times, and I do not have a particularly partisan view about it. I actually like to see the statement that New Zealand\u2019s interests are paramount and the basis of our immigration policy. I certainly approve of that, and, indeed, I advocated something similar in a discussion paper that I circulated within my own party a little while ago, so I do not have any problem with it. But paragraph (b) of clause 3 states: \u201Cprovide greater control over, and more effective management of, the quality and number of applications for residence visas and residence permits;\u201D, and that is the bit I have some questions about. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221772e9f5-5379-4bfe-9d9b-eaffb4c61b02\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022679732c7dc5e4e22b7dbabc4c58ac841\u0022\u003EHon Harry Duynhoven\u003C/span\u003E: He needs an empty glass of water not a full one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213b2d3fe83554be89c11b8ed80eb736e\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I need someone to taste this before I am prepared to drink it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ad4c4da8b240118e9d195775582426\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Turn it into wine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b05ede40c8e34e2db2cf5d1d9397195f\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether Mr Hide might like to nominate a food taster for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI think the key questions in relation to this bill can be summed up by reference to paragraph (b) of clause 3. The question one has to ask is who will have greater control over, and exercise more effective management of, the quality and number of applications for residence visas and residence permits. To me, that seems to go to the very heart of this legislation. The concern I have about it, in relation to all the discussions I have heard\u2014and I was not a member of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, but I have read some of the submissions that were made\u2014is that there are concerns abroad that there will be capricious decision-making, or, at least, decision making that is less than even-handed, if we have a system that is less transparent and less predictable than the current points model. I say to the Minister that that is a legitimate concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u0022d403da5445034d92bac943d0b97c2ba5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d403da5445034d92bac943d0b97c2ba5\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak on Part 1 of the bill, because I was kind of staggered when I heard the United Future spokesperson, Paul Adams, ask the New Zealand First Party why we are not voting for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EFirst of all, I think the fact that United Future is voting for the bill shows why we are voting against it. In the election campaign I opened up the newspaper to find Peter Dunne talking about his immigration policy. He said that United Future wanted 60,000-plus immigrants per year. That is obviously why United Future is voting for this bill. We believe that it does absolutely nothing to change the regime, to change the ad hoc policy-making implemented by this Government, and that is the reason we are voting against Part 1. [Interruption] Well, where there is a will there is a way, and there is no will over there. Why would a party that wants 60,000-plus immigrants a year not vote for a policy like this? It is very obvious to us in New Zealand First that this bill is just smoke and mirrors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EPart 1, which deals with the commencement and the objects of this legislation, does nothing whatsoever to increase the fortunes of this nation. When I looked through this part of the bill, it became very apparent to me that this legislation will allow for continuing high levels of immigration. It does nothing to help the average young Kiwi couple who are chasing the most basic of Kiwi dreams, like buying a home. I will be in that situation in a few months when I get married. I was looking at the Sunday-Star Times on Sunday, and I found an article on page 8 entitled \u201CFirst-home dreams built on sand\u201D that I want quickly to bring to the attention of the Committee. The article says exactly what the problem is in this country. Once the commencement of this bill takes place, it will do nothing for people like Jude Davies and Tim Dunning, who are staying with Dunning\u2019s parents as he and Davies save for a deposit on a Wellington house. The article states: \u201CYou can spot them at house auctions: clean-cut young couples, happy in love and ready to set up home together. They stand at the front, nervous but excited, clutching in one hand the letter from their bank pre-approving a loan of up to $350,000, maybe a little more. They are tense, avoiding any little nod or wink that might be wrongly interpreted as a bid. They miss the first bid\u2014a seasoned bidder gets in first\u2014but maybe the young bloke raises his hand for the second bid. You can see them walking away afterwards, disappointed, bewildered. The bidding quickly moved out of their reach. \u2026 The world should be their oyster\u201D\u2014at this time in life for them\u2014\u201Cyet they cannot afford to fulfil the most basic of Kiwi dreams: buying a home.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EAll that this Government is doing with its immigration policy is making it harder and harder for couples like Tim Dunning and Jude Davies to buy a house, to start a life together, and to pursue the most basic of dreams. As I said, that problem is a direct result of the Government\u2019s immigration policy. Instead of having a policy like that, New Zealand First suggests we should have something a little more creative, like export policies that provide tax abatement, like concession policies to ensure that viable exporting opportunities and innovation are not lost. Contrary to the objects of this Act, in clause 3, the bill will not help the young mechanics who were talked about earlier. There are plenty of young guys, whom I have met when I have gone to get my car fixed and so on, who would just love to be able to become a mechanic. There is no skills shortage as far as that is concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022d1ca62a0d4cd48f587dfb3ee738b2118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d1ca62a0d4cd48f587dfb3ee738b2118\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (NZ Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00224c5c22f3f53f4c8bb1c0177d5185bbc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c5c22f3f53f4c8bb1c0177d5185bbc9\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 of this bill consists of just two clauses, with the first being the commencement clause. There is nothing unusual about the wording in that clause, although it might be useful to amend it, so that instead of the bill coming into force on the day after the date on which it receives the royal assent, it could come into force 3 years after the date on which it receives the royal assent, because that would enable a future Government to amend this before it embarrasses our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe main aspect of Part 1 is obviously clause 3, \u201CObjects of Act\u201D. It is fascinating to look at what is spelt out in clause 3. Paragraph (a) states: \u201Cestablish a legislative framework,\u201D\u2014and there is nothing wrong with that\u2014\u201Cparticularly in respect of Government residence policy, where New Zealand\u2019s interests are paramount, as opposed to the present entitlement model;\u201D. It will not be immediately clear to people as to what that means. We can maybe get some insight into what that means from associated legislation, such as the Immigration Amendment Bill (No 2), which was passed by this Government not so long ago. In managing our immigration policies in this country, that legislation lapsed the applications of some thousands of applicants for residence. Do members know what the one overwhelming characteristic was of those applicants whose applications were lapsed? They were all people who had largely met the points requirements. They were educated, and they had employment prospects in this country. The one characteristic that was common to most of the people whose applications were lapsed is that they were from India.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E That gives us some hint of what this Government is about. It talks about putting New Zealand first. Clause 3 states that New Zealand\u2019s interests are paramount, as distinct from an entitlement model. What we have seen so far from this Government is that its notion of  \u201CNew Zealand\u2019s interests\u201D seems to discriminate against people such as those from India, because largely it was people from India who had their applications lapsed. It concerns the Opposition that the objectives spelt out in clause 3 provide for a system that can discriminate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWhen the Minister spoke a moment ago she said the problem with the entitlement model\u2014as she refers to it\u2014is that it enables people who are not appropriately qualified to come to New Zealand. The answer to that problem is to change the rules. The rules should be transparent. The points system should be changed. More points should be given for the kinds of skills that are needed in New Zealand. We do not need to put in place an opaque\u2014potentially corrupt\u2014system to get the kinds of persons we want as successful immigrants. We should change the points system. We should give more points to people who have job offers or to people who have the kinds of skills that New Zealand needs. But clause 3, which spells out the objects of the Act, establishes a two-tier system that enables the Minister to discriminate. There is no need for it. We can achieve the outcome being sought. I accept that the outcome being sought\u2014to better match immigrant skills with New Zealand\u2019s requirements\u2014is a perfectly fine one, but we do not need the two-tier system, spelt out in clause 3, to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe would achieve that outcome much more simply if we made changes to the points system. Points should be awarded in such a way that there is a clear entitlement system, and the entitlement should be based on skills that better match New Zealand\u2019s requirements. There is no need to run the risks. In terms of clause 3(c), how on earth will the Government decide the labour market requirements and the detail necessary to make this system work? The Minister should explain to us how clause 3(c) would work. How will the Government select and actively recruit migrants? That is a huge change from the current system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00225854f3ff8a994b55820e4b657586880b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225854f3ff8a994b55820e4b657586880b\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022b20951fbf77a4a89be88f2e56a394166\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b20951fbf77a4a89be88f2e56a394166\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very important issue for New Zealand First, and I do appreciate being given the call. The point made by the Hon Lockwood Smith is very apt for the amendment New Zealand First has put before the Committee. We have made it clear that, in so far as clause 3(c) is concerned, we should add the words: \u201CSuch migrants to be people who have jobs approved for them before they come to New Zealand, such jobs being real vacancies and not jobs taken from existing workers in New Zealand.\u201D To some extent, that is what we all thought the Minister was saying when she introduced the bill in the dead of night, under urgency, many weeks ago\u2014that is, that Labour was changing the legislation so that jobs for immigrants would be matched to jobs available in New Zealand. But, of course, that is not what is happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ELabour has an obsession with having 45,000 or more people coming into New Zealand every year, and it wants to increase the population of New Zealand, willy-nilly. For example, last year 190,000 people in total, including international students, were approved for permanent and temporary residence in the year ended June 2002. We have quoted that figure before from the geography magazine of Waikato University. It was put to the Minister at the Finance and Expenditure Committee\u2019s consideration on the immigration estimates. She refused to recognise the figure initially, but when we put it to her again she admitted that, yes, that statement from the geography magazine was correct. That is, 190,000 people, including international students, were approved for permanent and temporary residence, with 52,800 in the immigration category, 73,000 by student visas and permits, and the balance in the temporary residence category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EHow can New Zealand manage 190,000 people in a year? Mostly they are in Auckland, which is an area that is growing. In the last 10 years Auckland grew by 200,000 people. As a matter of interest, that number was the total population of Auckland in 1929. Every 10 years Auckland is growing by 200,000, which is more than the population of most of the other cities in New Zealand. If Auckland does that every 10 years, it is no wonder we have problems in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am pleased that Mr Adams repeated New Zealand First\u2019s immigration policy. I had already mentioned it in my speech, but he read it out again in the speech notes provided to him by his research unit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222233aeaa88804c0d98dc3ae083e18d34\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The Labour Party research unit!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff01229620046f992cdb3232f2d171b\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps it was the Labour Party research unit. He will read anything\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022817f8c628917460cb7c23ab30297bbcf\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: As long as it comes from Labour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6cc4b05f0e94e0a9a9440ed9dec9619\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, as long as it comes from Labour. We made it clear in our election policy that we would cut immigration approval to 10,000 immigrants a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe also said we would increase penalties for breaches of immigration laws. What will happen to this bloke, Mohebbi, or whoever, who is involved in this legislation we are rushing through the Committee tonight? He will just get sent back to Iran. He has committed bigamy, which is a breach of our law, but what will we do to him? We will just send him back home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022729e3da1522d48f0880049be6d9f687f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s Labour Party policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f53d9d55de884bf29c92a3626936d3a6\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is Labour Party policy. He has had a good 6 or 7 years in New Zealand, and now we will send him back home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe said we would have a 3-year probation for immigrants during which lawbreakers would be deported, and there would be pre-arrival health screening, including screening for HIV. We see from the clause about the objects of this bill that nothing like that is covered to ensure proper health screenings for people who come to New Zealand. We have tuberculosis here now, on a big scale. In question time today the Prime Minister seemed to know what the figures were in 1991, but she could not tell us what the figures are today after 4 years of her administration. That was another very convenient lapse of memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe have made it clear we believe that the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions has some very good ideas in this area. I was interested in its quotation from the Population and Sustainable Development 2003 report. The council left out the first few words of this quotation, but I will put them in. It is a very good quotation: \u201CIn terms of populations, the impacts of fundamentals such as lifestyle, wages, opportunities, and safety will outlast any artificial incentives that may be provided to attract migrants or influence New Zealanders to stay or return.\u201D What was not read out was: \u201CThere is the chance of a downward spiral if New Zealand can\u2019t get the right mix to attract, retain, regain, and utilise skilled people.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First believe there will be a downward spiral with this Government\u2019s policy, because it is a slap-happy, haphazard policy that is trying to bring in 45,000-plus people. Last year the figure was 190,000 people. We say that we have to link the job with the immigrant. We cannot just bring in 45,000 people and hope they will have jobs. That is all the Labour Party\u2019s policy is, and it intends to do that every year. Every year, time and time again, Labour will bring in another 45,000 people\u2014mainly into Auckland\u2014on top of everybody else. New Zealand has never been able to sustain that type of immigration. On a per capita basis there would not be any other country in the world that could do that type of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022af50f68950a24f6c8e90ed53f28f4fb8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af50f68950a24f6c8e90ed53f28f4fb8\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224b2ad925b4f641e1a2118e09cd523c2a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000499\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to clause 3(a) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000500\u0022\u003Eto insert, after the word \u201Cmodel;\u201D, the words \u201Cwhile still providing transparency and certainty of residence policy to maintain the international credibility of New Zealand\u2019s immigration system;\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220736083c8e7d4c01bc4f3b9328494486\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000501\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dail Jones to clause 3(c) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000502\u0022\u003Eto add, after the words \u201Cin New Zealand\u201D, the words \u201C; such migrants to be people who have jobs approved for them before they come to New Zealand, such jobs being real vacancies and not jobs taken from existing workers in New Zealand.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f57a5c4009a44f1ab79e677549c3723c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ddd4e510d594ed1b3776ccb3dbc260b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of Pansy Wong, to add new paragraph (d) to clause 3, is out of order. It is inconsistent with the previous amendment that was agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00221eeda51a97ed4d51bc49a42b24f6626d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221eeda51a97ed4d51bc49a42b24f6626d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek your guidance on how an amendment can be out of order that seeks to ensure transparency and certainty of immigration policies in order to maintain the international credibility of New Zealand\u2019s immigration system. It is rather odd, because if that amendment is out of order, it is being argued that our system should not be transparent, should have no certainty, and should have no international credibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002247b014335dfb4572aab9973b134809c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247b014335dfb4572aab9973b134809c1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps it would assist with clarity if I tell the Committee that we did try to work with the member who was moving the amendment to have it included as part of clause 3(a), but because the member could not agree to that change, I decided that it was important to follow up on the points. Although I could not agree to the stand-alone paragraph (d), I actually moved it in my name. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5cd231bafa2446aa5f710bde6c350d9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002287e89432b47045feb55e54af904104ce\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00220d38b933e80d418499c18a7066f24e52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220d38b933e80d418499c18a7066f24e52\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 is the guts of the bill, to use a colloquial expression, and it worries us hugely. I keep stressing to the Minister that I can accept the logic of what the Government is trying to do. As I understand it, it is that we need somehow to better match the skills that immigrants bring to this country with the skills needs of our country. We have no argument with that. I accept that in the past, immigration policy has not achieved that as well as it should have. We all know that there are too many doctors driving taxis. We accept that, but we should be moving to a better policy. There is no question about it. But the problem with what is provided for in Part 2 is twofold, in my view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThe first problem is that the Government is putting in place a two-tiered system that is inevitably going to delay decision making. The two tiers are, firstly, that under clause 9, people who wish to come to New Zealand are invited to express an interest in residence in New Zealand. The Minister is given the unfettered right, under section 13E, inserted by clause 9, to decide which of those people who have expressed an interest in having residence in New Zealand will be allowed to apply for residence. They could sit on that list of expressions of interest for months, while the Minister decides which of those people will be invited to apply for residence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EAfter they apply for residence, there is then a further decision to be made. The decision then has to be made whether they will be given residence. That is the second tier of the whole process. Submissioners to the select committee were concerned about the length of time this whole process could take. I know that the Minister will get to her feet, if she is interested in the debate, to say that there will be mechanisms to make sure it does not take too long. But we know all too well that it is going to be quite a lengthy process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EPeople will have made the huge decision to seek to come to New Zealand. It is a huge decision, a very courageous decision, that all our forebears made in previous times, in the history of our country. We believe that it is not wise to have to go through that two-tier process. But there is a worse problem. The very nature of this process gives the Minister and her officials so much power to choose who can even apply for residence. Almost inevitably, all those who came to the select committee to make submissions on the bill expressed a concern that, despite the best intentions, this process will almost inevitably lead to corruption.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EWe know that under clause 7 the Government will be putting out its residence policy. But the danger remains that when we give absolute discretion, when the Minister chooses not to invite someone to apply for residence, there is no appeal. No one can say: \u201CHang on, we think it\u2019s not consistent with the Government\u2019s residence policy that our expression of interest should have been turned down by the Minister, because we feel she has not invited us because we are Indian, or Asian, or Chinese. We feel that that\u2019s why we have not been invited to apply.\u201D They have no chance to appeal that decision with anyone. That is why so many people are concerned about the potential for discrimination; the potential for corruption. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI am not accusing this Minister of being racist. I would not dare accuse this Minister of being corrupt. But, despite the best intentions, we have legislation like this. In other jurisdictions, not everyone sets out to be corrupt. Some do, but not all. When we have legislation that can lead to a slippery path, where a Minister can make a decision about two people whom we could invite to apply  for residence here, and one is Asian and one is not, there is the risk that the person who is not Asian might be selected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e064fbd98a7946758797a249f6e52142\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e064fbd98a7946758797a249f6e52142\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I want to begin my contribution to this part of the debate on Part 2 by quoting one little section to the Committee: \u201C (a) No person is entitled to a residence permit as of right; and (b) Any question whether or not\u2014(i) to grant a resident permit to any person \u2026 is a matter for the discretion of the Minister or, subject to any special direction given under this Act and to section 13C of this Act, of the appropriate immigration officer.\u201D That is the existing law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222025e2d31f4648a597d6bf8228019d8d\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why did you call it \u201Centitlement\u201D in this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc782907ed524fb9ab45a03281b94b04\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Because it has become an entitlement through the operation of exactly the protection that is offered by Government residence policy. Government residence policy is what the Residence Appeal Authority has to ensure is being applied in a case being decided by an individual immigration officer, by way of delegation. That is the way the law is currently structured. What has happened is that it has got out of kilter with the way the law was intended to be structured. We have ended up with a right to residence based on an individual meeting a set of points, based on qualifications, skills, and experience that may not match New Zealand\u2019s needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222196eedbfdcc4741a48db9ed1254e7ff\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Change the points system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6d4083bb4c4fccbba47165ba40c18f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: No, but this is the point that I want to make to the member. I hope we do have this interchange in the course of this debate, because this is the most important part of the bill. What I think people do not realise is that the numbers are currently being controlled, under the New Zealand immigration programme, by the number of points that one has to obtain, or draw together, in order to qualify for residence under the general skills category. In my time as Minister those points have risen from 24 points to 29 points. The reason they have risen so significantly in a relatively short period is that there has been an increased interest in people moving to New Zealand under this particular category. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe points were actually too low at 24 points. I accept that. I held the points at 24, so I accept that I made a mistake in doing so, and that is why we ended up with a backlog. It does mean that we have a significant number of people who have had applications lodged within a system that did not cater for the change in the policy that the Government wanted to introduce. So this means that there will be fewer delays, not more delays; there will be more certainty, and there will be no ministerial unfettered right to decide, because Government residence policy will determine the factors that will be taken into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI can assure the member that when people lodge their expressions of interest they will do so on a points-based system. The only difference between the current points system and the new proposed points-based system\u2014and the details are still being worked out, but they will be known in advance of the skilled migrant category coming into effect\u2014is that the new proposed points-based system will have additional points for meeting New Zealand\u2019s needs over and above the pre-existing general skills category. So there will be additional points for people having qualifications and experience in the areas of skill shortage within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c2d01e7df5b44608736ab66665be0e0\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: You can do that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4df69f3e276451788a54fb430cb3273\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: No, there is a reason we cannot. The second thing is that it will have additional points if people have job offers in those areas. It will have additional points for job offers that are relevant to qualifications and experience. But the job offers that are currently there now that are not relevant to qualifications or experience will go. They will not get any extra points, because they have been incredibly unhelpful in ensuring that people are able to take up their previous areas of occupational skill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThere will also be extra points for people who get job offers outside Auckland. The point that I have been making is that a lot of people who have been making some criticism around us moving away from a transparent and open system really have not looked at the detail of what is being proposed, and that is a points-based system for the expressions of interest. People will register their expression of interest for a very low fee. At the end of, say, a quarterly assessment, those who have been selected will be invited to apply for residence\u2014that is, those who score the most points. The rest will be lapsed at the end of that 3-month period, if that is the period that we determine. So people will not be sitting in a pool for ever. They will know within a period of 3 to 4 months whether they will be invited to apply for residence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EOnce they are invited to apply for residence, then it is pretty sure that, unless there is something particularly wrong\u2014for instance, they have attempted to defraud the system with false documentation, or whatever\u2014they will have a reasonably good chance of gaining residence. In fact, the sorts of statistics that we have been working off are around the general skills statistics. I think about 10 percent are declined residence, and some of those are, in fact, allowed to have their applications reconsidered as a result of the Residence Appeal Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut there will be two streams of people who will fall off this residence application. There are those who have job offers in New Zealand, who have already proven that they can settle in New Zealand, who did their university degree here, and who have studied here for a couple of years\u2014they are people who already know themselves what they are coming to, what to expect, and they have already demonstrated that they can settle in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn the other group are people who do not have job offers, who have not got their qualifications here in New Zealand, or who have not worked here for a couple of years. Their situation can be managed through a work-to-residence option, which means that there is a residence permit at the end of it, but it does mean that they carry the risk of failure, of not being able to get a job in their area or expertise or qualification. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo, in fact, this system is much more geared towards those whom New Zealand needs to meet its skill shortages. It is aimed precisely ensuring that migrants who come to New Zealand under the skilled migrant category\u2014and this is only the skilled migrant category that it applies to at the moment; maybe in the future we will look at expanding it to other areas, but not at this stage\u2014can be selected to meet New Zealand\u2019s need. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ESo the system itself will be much quicker. There will be no delays such as we have at the moment, and there will be no chance of people waiting 1 year, 2 years, or 3 years, which has been the case, not just under this Government, but under previous Governments as well. I think people should read the histories of their own party\u2019s performance in this area of immigration before being so quick to criticise others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00225ed8ecf13eef48f78ecbcfb3b3789593\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ed8ecf13eef48f78ecbcfb3b3789593\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There is no doubt about New Zealand First\u2019s history, with regard to immigration. When New Zealand First came into office, the immigration figures were coming down and down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214579f3ee506435ca76a7fd265f850ad\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You did nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257273f3d43704b67bdcac9a31c1384eb\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I checked the figures myself, and they were coming down and down. There is no doubt about it. I was in practice in Auckland then, and one could see around Auckland that young people were able to buy their homes because there was not the pressure on the housing market. Parents could get young people into a school because there was not the pressure on education, and people could get into a hospital\u2014[Interruption] I say, for the benefit of the member for Whanganui, that women in Auckland cannot even have a baby, without walking into the maternity ward and being told to be out in 2 hours, which is what happened to a pregnant woman in Auckland within only the last few days. She went into North Shore Hospital and was told that she could be there for only 2 hours, to have her baby, and then leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EUnder New Zealand First there was a good health system, a good education system, and one could buy a house\u2014something that a young person cannot do today. Only the speculators are profiting by this Labour Party policy\u2014once again, as usual. The Labour Party has always done this when it has come into office. I remember that it was the same in 1972 to 1975, and it is the same now. Property prices are soaring under this Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022355f2e96dc7047d3b9fa9e2628f36a57\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221276a0f03311422c9556afed25070c3f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It is not rubbish. It is happening in Ponsonby all the time. A dreadful little place that 2 years ago was worth $310,000 is now worth $600,000. Is that not speculation? Judith Tizard would not have the faintest idea about what is happening in Auckland, and she is supposed to be the Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is opposed to this Labour Party policy, which has made no change whatsoever to immigration numbers. The Minister of Immigration is like a magician. She tries to fiddle her particulars but in actual fact there is no change. We are wasting our time putting this legislation through. It will not improve anything, in so far as a young person trying to buy a house, or to get to a school, is concerned. The Minister laughs. OK, it might be all right in Christchurch, but it is not like that in Auckland. Labour members can laugh, but it is not like that in Auckland. This is what members who live in Auckland and serve the Auckland electoral system and the constituents in the Auckland area have to put up with. To put an end to the Minister\u2019s story about how long applications will take, Access Immigration New Zealand has indicated that applications will have at least a 12-month delay.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b1dfce217614bfe8ae99f3b903f0a65\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner break, one of the interjections I received from the Minister of Immigration was a criticism of the figures when New Zealand First was involved in the Government. So I got out those figures, because she gave the clear impression that immigration figures had increased during that time. I go back to 1993\u2014and these figures were compiled by David Williams of the Parliamentary Library. They show that in 1993 permanent and long-term arrivals were 49,562. The net figure came to 6,848. In 1996\u2014I am covering election years\u2014there were 80,288 permanent and long-term arrivals, and the net figure was 29,832. So the National Government had increased those figures, from 49,000 to 80,000, during its 3 years in office. From 1996 to 1999, which included 2 of the 3 years of New Zealand First, the figures went from 80,288 down to 56,580, and we had net permanent and long-term arrivals of minus 10,199. So when we say we will get immigration down, we do mean it. We will take action to do it. Of course, again, by the year 2002 the figure had gone up to 88,365, under the Labour administration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the interesting things about the Waikato University paper was that it showed there seemed to be a 3-year cyclical way of looking at immigration. Certain parties want immigration figures to be high just before an election and other parties want them to be low, because of their particular policies. New Zealand First is unabashed about the fact that we want New Zealand to be primarily for New Zealanders. We want a certain number of skilled people from overseas, and we do not want the flood that comes in under the National Party, or the tremendous flood that comes in under the Labour Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022384357a36ae1449085747aa09221bc7e\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What flood did that member come in on?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282120106179a471b8672708399f3fba4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I came in, possibly, on Noah\u2019s flood according to some of the members of this House\u2014I have been here as long as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as the policies are concerned, the Minister is absolutely wrong, yet again, in trying to suggest that New Zealand First\u2019s figures do not somehow meet its policies when it is in Government. We believe in New Zealand for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002243d8f762bbd444b29fb167d563fbb39c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002243d8f762bbd444b29fb167d563fbb39c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 2, which is the guts of the bill, I guess. I make a couple of comments to Mr Dail Jones of the New Zealand First party. What he is really saying to the Committee\u2014and I guess there is some truth to this\u2014is that if we had New Zealand First as the Government, this country would not be very attractive for people to come to. If we look further at this issue, we see that under New Zealand First some of our best and brightest fled this country, and I have no doubt that if Mr Peters was in charge, they would be tempted to flee again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd7ac041b5646038e496931f087b9e9\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I don\u2019t often agree with the member but he\u2019s absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f53e9e5ab694e9f8efbaa86bf1c1158\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. It does not happen often that the member agrees with me. The problem I have with this part is that, on the one hand the Minister says we are going to have a points system, and, on the other hand, she says we are not. When we look at the points system we see some of the dilemmas the Government has. It has a large number of migrants coming into New Zealand, so it has raised the points required. The result is, people get more and more points\u2014for example, for having higher and higher academic qualifications\u2014and we discover that only nuclear scientists can qualify. The trouble is we are not very strong on nuclear physics in this country. I am exaggerating only slightly. We then discover, as we go around the country and talk\u2014as ACT, of course, does\u2014to business people, that there are critical shortages in that sector. I say to the Minster that, interestingly enough\u2014given she says the Government is going to move in that respect\u2014we have a critical shortage of truck drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec3014d34345414984e1f9c9d6ba12d8\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: We need 4,000 truck drivers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cffd80c7dde449c9d96c644b0b7f648\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member is agreeing with me again. That is a bit of a worry! She has just said we need 4,000 truck drivers. When I look at this bill, I start to wonder about the arguments the Minster is putting forward. Does that mean we will have 4,000 truck drivers arriving? If a person is a nuclear scientist, should that person put down \u201Ctruck driver\u201D as his or her desired occupation? Should the person come forward with a job offer from, say, \u201CBay of Plenty Trucking\u201D\u2014if there is such a company\u2014and say, under the Minister\u2019s theory: \u201CHere I am. I\u2019ve got high points. I\u2019ve got a job offer, which I got while I was overseas, to be a truck driver.\u201D? That is part of the problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe second part of the problem\u2014and I think this point illustrates it\u2014is that Parliament moved away from this sort of system for the reason that consultants, whom the Minister so dislikes, will reshape their policies to fit whatever the Minister does. So if she suddenly says that people need a job offer, the consultants will produce job offers. If she says that people will have to live in Invercargill, they will suddenly claim they are going to live in Invercargill. What are we going to do then? Are we going to deport them if they decide that Invercargill winters are too cold? Those sorts of policies completely discredited the previous immigration system. I realise there are now very few members left in the House who were actually here when we had that previous, discredited method. But that point illustrates the nature of human beings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhen the witnesses appeared before the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2014and my party was not a member, so I am relying just on the report back\u2014it appears that those who know about these things said to the Government: \u201CIf you\u2019re worried about the integrity of the present system\u201D\u2014and New Zealand First clearly is\u2014\u201Cit\u2019s nothing compared with the concerns you\u2019re going to have when you have wide discretions available in an area like immigration.\u201D I think that all members of the House accept there are possibilities and ways in which our present immigration system can be improved, and I guess that if we are frank about it, we will say that immigration, by its nature, is always going to be arbitrary. When MPs meet people coming into this country, we see they are hard-working and diligent. Some migrants want to come, and clearly they would make good citizens, but we may find they are one point short. The next person who comes in to see us might be asking for permission to double dip the social welfare system\u2014but that person is a New Zealand citizen. The idea that all New Zealand citizens are wonderful, and that everybody wanting to immigrate to this country is a plague, is nonsense. One sees those instances in one\u2019s own electorate clinics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EWhat I do not see in this bill, though, is a system that looks as though it will be robust enough so that we know it will be a fair system and that people who apply to New Zealand will have fair rules applied to them. What I do see though is a panic reaction to the sorts of speeches that New Zealand First members make on this subject. What I think we are seeing is a method whereby the Minister of Immigration can do exactly what Mr Dail Jones seems to be advocating\u2014that is, every time there is an election year, depending on which way the polls are going, one decreases or increases the immigration numbers, only to ignore them completely afterwards. Surely we should be seeking, as a Parliament, to find out what rules we want and what guidelines we want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u002251b8443373964956b22d9cf9426eea69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251b8443373964956b22d9cf9426eea69\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I, along with Mr Prebble, am one of those few members who are able to remember how immigration used to operate when we had a system of the sort that is proposed by this bill, and specifically Part 2. I think it is worth the Committee just reminding itself of how we got here. We have this bill because the Minister had far too many applications in the system, and the system could not cope any longer. The reason we have too many applications in the system is that the Minister did not take any notice of all the warning signs. Under the points system\u2014which, as Mr Prebble has reminded us, is a lot more transparent than the old system\u2014there is a computer formula that says to the Minister that when a certain number of applications, with certain criteria, come in, then that is the time to increase the number of points. So for many months that system was automatically saying to the Minister: \u201CThe current points number is 24, and you need to lift it to 25.\u201D That is what the system was saying, and the Minister overrode that system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ESo the applications kept pouring in. Well, that was a big surprise! So all of a sudden the Minister says: \u201CIt\u2019s too hard. There are too many applications in the system. We\u2019re going to have to shoot half of them and we\u2019ll have to change the rules.\u201D The new rules would be that the Minister and the officials get to make some choices from time to time about whom we invite to come in. So the Minister and the officials, who were too stupid to make changes when the computer system told them to change from 24 points to 25, are supposed to be so clever that they can be entrusted with making arbitrary judgments and arbitrary changes of policy, day by day, as empowered by Part 2 of this bill. That is clearly nuts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe Minister and the officials, who could not notice when the computer system said that 24 should be crossed out and changed to 25, are so clever that they can be entrusted with reading the indications in the marketplace and making those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E As Mr Prebble said, there are some very clear signs in the marketplace as to what is going on out there. Does the Minister know there is an acute shortage of workers on dairy farms in Southland? I know that the local member of Parliament has had representations from Federated Farmers and local farmers who say they cannot get applications approved by the Immigration Service. The Minister does not seem to know that. She is pretending not to listen at the moment. Clearly, neither the Minister nor her officials know that. Yet the new system will rely on that Minister and her officials being up to the mark with what is going on in the marketplace. The new system will depend upon her knowing that in Southland there is an acute shortage of workers on dairy farms, and, as Mr Prebble told us, there is an acute shortage of truck drivers in some sectors in some parts of New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EThe people who could not notice the computer system saying to change 24 points to 25, are supposed to be able to make the most subtle and sophisticated readings of the marketplace and drive day-by-day changes to the policy, accordingly. That is just not credible. Nobody in the Committee tonight appears to believe that. Nobody in the Committee believes that the Minister and her officials are capable of such subtlety and sophistication. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EMy other point is that new clause 15A, inserted by the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, amends section 60 of the Act, and that new clause is a consequence of Justice Chambers decision a month ago. I ask the Minister again, when did she know that that provision would be required, and why did she not pick up the phone and call me, and Mr Prebble and Mr Peters, and say: \u201CI\u2019ve got a problem. I want to fix it.\u201D I have reason to believe that many weeks ago she knew she had this problem. I have looked at that judgment. The Minister of Immigration\u2014as defendant\u2014was represented by Mr Mark Woolford, senior counsel, and I bet dollars to doughnuts that Mr Woolford said to the Minister: \u201CWe\u2019re gone. We won\u2019t win this case.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI guarantee to the Committee tonight that this Minister knew she would need the law changed. That is why we have new clause 15A. Yet I was told about it today, and Mr Prebble and Mr Peters were told today, but United Future was probably told several weeks ago, and that is why United Future is being so secretive and so quiet in these proceedings. United Future will agree to anything to help this Government out of a hole, as we have seen on a number of issues in recent times. But I tell the Minister that this is an important area of policy, and if she knows that something is going wrong, she owes it to us to tell us about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022941e7a35f6a0462d9ed24bb2c4e2405d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022941e7a35f6a0462d9ed24bb2c4e2405d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I shall speak briefly about the remaining aspects of the elements of Part 2 that I have not already addressed, and then I shall speak briefly about the sequence of events in respect of the Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EInterestingly, I think that both Mr McCully and Mr Prebble have become confused between work-permit policy and residence policy. That is not an unusual thing to happen, when one notes the situation in 1998. Because of the figures Mr Jones read out, which showed a falling rate of immigration in 1998, the Government of the day decided to change the policy so that the offer of employment attracted premium points\u2014five points\u2014regardless of whether the job offer was relevant to the individual\u2019s qualifications or experience. In fact, the whole system melted down once again, with highly professional people gaining residence and having a job offer as a forecourt attendant at a garage. A constituent came to my electorate office a few weeks ago to tell me that he had had his petrol poured by a neurosurgeon, and he was appalled that that situation was still arising in our country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, there is a mismatch with work-permit policy. Work-permit policy is a matter on my agenda, but it is not relevant to the debate on the skilled migrant category. The skilled migrant category is for people to obtain residence in New Zealand. The general skills category as it is now, the interim category, or the skilled migrant category of the future, is not to meet New Zealand\u2019s labour market shortages, such as truck-drivers. It is to meet our skill shortages, such as people in the information technology areas who will help to grow New Zealand\u2019s economy. This is really about building New Zealand\u2019s skills set, out of our skilled immigration policy. It is not designed to replace work-permit policy. It is simply to utilise the category, as it was properly to be used in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe trouble is that both Mr McCully and Mr Prebble said opposite things about the points system, but have highlighted the deficiency I am trying to get rid of. The deficiency in the current system is that the points rise or fall, based on the numbers and not on the quality of the application. Under the new points system for the expression of interest, there will be a threshold of points that anyone who wants to lodge an expression of interest has to meet. But that person will not be able to lodge an expression of interest if he or she does not meet a set number of points, and they will not be fluctuating over a period of time. In my time as Minister they have gone from 24 points to 29 points. Have New Zealand\u2019s needs changed in that period, so that we need only the people that Mr Prebble described as meeting the requirements of 29 points? No, they have not, and that is the problem with the current system. It is why we want a set threshold that people have to meet, in order to lodge an expression of interest. It will not adjust, based on applications. We will meet the New Zealand immigration programme, which has been established at 45,000 for this year, and 45,000 for the next 3 years is the indicative level. New Zealand\u2019s First\u2019s objection is that this Government is supportive of an active immigration programme. We will continue to support an active immigration project. So the points are not to be adjusted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EMr McCully raised the question of when I was provided with advice on this particular case. I introduced the Supplementary Order Paper at the earliest possible opportunity. On 6 August I was advised by the Department of Labour that a matter was to occur in the High Court the following day. It was an application under the Habeas Corpus Act. The department warned me that following the outcome of the proceedings, consideration might have to be given to an urgent amendment to the Immigration Act. Yes, I was provided with a warning, the day before the matter went to court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe following day I received another piece of advice from the legal section of the Department of Labour advising of the risks and stating that I would have to consider the matter, and that the written version of the oral judgment that had been given that day would be available the following week. On the following Monday we had the written judgment from the court, and the matter proceeded from there. We worked out a programme to bring together an amendment to the Immigration Act that could be put into place with the Immigration Amendment Bill that was currently before the House. A week\u2019s adjournment fell within that 3-week period. The following week, which was last week, I sought power from Cabinet to act. I took it through two Cabinet committees last week, which would normally take 2 weeks. Yesterday I took it to Cabinet. It was approved by Cabinet yesterday, and signed off by my caucus today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe member says that this Government has not responded quickly enough, but it would not have been possible to move an amendment any more quickly than this. I am very grateful that the National Party, New Zealand First, United Future, and now the ACT party, have said that they will support the Supplementary Order Paper. We cannot forget the fact that the individual who is the subject of this case is not in custody at the moment, and there is no provision to detain him until this particular amendment is passed. That is one of the reasons this is urgent. However, it does apply beyond that particular individual. It applies to another individual whom I spoke of in the motion before the House, prior to the Committee stage, to consider the Supplementary Order Paper. I made it very clear that another individual was charged with a very serious offence yesterday, in relation to the shooting of a woman in Manurewa. That individual was also released because the District Court could not continue to extend his warrant of commitment, because of the Mohebbi case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThat means that we are exposed while the law remains as it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EA number of people have commented on the language of the law and the use of the language of discretion. I make the point, and the select committee made this point in its report back, that we are going to be undertaking a full review of immigration law next year. We will look at the language of the legislation in its totality, but it is important that we get this amendment into law at the moment so we can be protected against people who will take no action to support the removal of such people from this country\u2014or in this case sign applications for identity documents to enable them to be removed from New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ENew Zealand remains under threat, I believe, by people who could be released under the current section 60, and I thank members of the Committee for providing me with the support I need to get this amendment through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022868b65ae86314a4ea7ca8e7f17cb7c21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022868b65ae86314a4ea7ca8e7f17cb7c21\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (NZ National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I note that the Minister has talked about being advised of a gentleman who is serving petrol and is a neurosurgeon. Given that we have a shortage of neurosurgeons, particularly paediatric neurosurgeons, it is to be hoped that she has followed up on that contact and the information given to her. Hopefully, she has organised it so that we can add to our complement of neurosurgeons in this country and not continue to experience a shortage. That is particularly so given that the Minister is now saying that the Government wants to address the shortages in these areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI do not have particular experience of immigration or immigration law, so what do I do? I go to the kind of submissions made by the New Zealand Law Society, and the requirements for legislative guidelines. In addressing Part 2 and the way the legislation is drafted, I would like to bring members\u2019 attention to the legislative guidelines. On page 18 the submission refers to the way legislation should be drafted in relation to immigration. It refers to the fact that, in general, the more serious the consequence of the decision for individual rights, the greater the protection necessary for the person affected. That is in terms of the independence or seniority of the decision-maker, the procedure to be followed, the specific standards and criteria of the decision, and the rights of appeal and review. When there are serious consequences for individuals, it is very important that their human rights are addressed. I would have liked to see something in the commentary on how human rights are affected by the way this legislation is drafted, and the need to protect people\u2019s individual rights. It is an important component of this bill that I think has been overlooked. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThat issue has been mentioned by the submitters. The Law Society submission states that under the proposed legislation it is impossible to predict an immigration outcome, or to advise people that they might qualify for residence, and that their applications might lapse at any time. New section 13BB in clause 8 covers the lapsing of applications for visas and permits. I have a gentleman in my constituency who does not know where his current application stands. If at any time two people in pretty similar circumstances are invited\u2014because, of course, one has to be invited\u2014to make an application, and if they have two different officers, one person might be granted his or her application and the other one denied. Where is the fairness and equity in that? If one of them gets approved and the other just gets left, the application lapses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E The constituent I am currently dealing with has spent $2,000-plus on his application. He now has no idea where it is at, and he may have to pay that money again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022906c1e77899042b7ad37616fa6fe187f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: When did he apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd86744232274b929ebadbfbf248d377\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: That is not relevant here, and I do not intend to digress on the actual details of this particular case. They have been sent to the Minister\u2019s office, so perhaps he might get a speedy resolution. One can live in hope, I suppose, but I shall be following that matter up with her office in due course. If his application lapses, a lot of time, effort, and emotional trauma will have gone into dealing with the bureaucracy. Suddenly, for no justifiable reason, that application will have lapsed, and absolutely no reason will be given. Where is the right or the ability to appeal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI think section 13B really is a travesty. It allows applications to be made and then lapsed with no justification, and no right of appeal or redress. That is an appalling situation to put people in, and it creates an incredible degree of uncertainty. Unfettered decision-making is a departure from the rule of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022 data-id=\u00223e2238f734db45f58c6e175af5d0e953\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e2238f734db45f58c6e175af5d0e953\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is obvious that the Government has to rely on a huge number of immigrants to keep the country afloat economically. It is a bubble that will burst. It is incredible that the Government is using this massive flow of immigration to prop up the economy. I am proud to be in a party that in Government will make sure that it props up the economy with true and proper economic growth. It will not just use immigration as an excuse because of a failure to keep the economy going in a proper way, and a failure to train, skill, and employ our own New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EIn speaking on Part 2, I first want to touch on an amendment put up by my colleague Dail Jones. It states: \u201CTo add after the word \u2018policy\u2019 on page 4 line 9 the following: Provided that the policy will ensure that no more than a total of 10,000 residence visas or residence permits in total are issued per annum.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af46b6f1b618451e93dbbe1377290a38\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Ha, ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a8b63754f0e148f9b5ea8805163afbc5\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Lianne Dalziel is obviously going to give us her support for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a18ae8d4c377485b887ded816653f234\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: No way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280fd1dc3941446d091b943eaa4362eb0\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you were, Lianne, I am so disappointed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a84f5545dce4bc2a67f1355f35dd6ef\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeebc668377e40678acc5020f4bbc4fa\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Dail Jones for pulling me up there.  I support Dail Jones\u2019 amendment because I believe that the number of new residence permits should be a lot less than it is now. As I said, it should be more in the vicinity of 10,000\u2014not 45,000, plus or minus 5,000. It is probably plus, as the honourable Minister is nodding. In New Zealand First we believe\u2014and I believe personally\u2014that New Zealand simply cannot keep absorbing those high numbers without them having a serious impact on our health infrastructure, our roading infrastructure, our schools and universities, and our taxi industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa6b6bc031cd414f9d6763bd8fb0abbe\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Where\u2019s your evidence?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022155155ee31334064a9419079eae7e062\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: Marc Alexander from United Future asks where my evidence is. I sat in traffic for 2 hours in Auckland the other day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb00791dd2f4faf94a3034ad2e740ce\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t blame immigration for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf932a2f93f741e0a4908ba6af5f9141\u0022\u003ECRAIG McNAIR\u003C/span\u003E: I sat in traffic for 2 hours. I think that is pretty much enough evidence that we are bringing in far more people than our roading infrastructure can handle. That is a basic fact. It was not even rush hour; it was about 3.30 p.m. [Interruption] I can tell Mr Alexander that I was on the motorway. He comes from a party that wants 60,000-plus immigrants in this country. That is what United Future said in its election manifesto. They are nodding their heads. If they are voting for this bill, there is obviously a reason. It must mean that they want more immigrants, but that is what New Zealand First is absolutely opposed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EThis bill will not take the weight off those 280 interpreters in the Auckland hospital system; it will not reduce the backlog of traffic on our roads. All it will do is add to that problem. It will continue to put pressure on our schools and universities. We have to do a lot to reverse the taxi driver problem. In my job as a member of Parliament, I have had the chance to drive around in a few cabs. Just the other week I had a driver from overseas who was a doctor. He is driving cabs, so there are serious problems in that respect. New Zealand First believes that this bill will do absolutely nothing to reverse the problems we face as a country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003EI turn now to new section 10A inserted by clause 6, and the provision in subsection (2): \u201CThe question whether or not to issue such an invitation, or to revoke such an invitation once issued, is a matter for the discretion of the Minister or, subject to any special direction given under this Act\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00225c773f2b8ad64c769b80543101af674b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c773f2b8ad64c769b80543101af674b\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I thought it would be useful for New Zealand First to understand that Labour\u2019s  immigration target\u2014the quota\u2014is about 45,000, and 60 percent of it is meant to come from skilled migrants and business migrants, so that reduces the figure to about 27,000. I think the Government is looking to get about 20,000 from the skilled migrants category. I predict that this bill will greatly reduce the number of skilled migrants who will be approved, so I am surprised that New Zealand First is not supporting it. It would go quite a long way to addressing its wish to reduce the total number of migrants down to 10,000. This bill deals only with skilled migrants, and New Zealand First now wants that target reduced to10,000.  \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge that one of my proposed amendments, to \u201Censure the transparency and certainty of immigration policies to maintain the international credibility of the New Zealand immigration system,\u201D was adopted by the Minister as part of clause 3(a) in Part 1, although I regret it could not be accepted as a stand-alone amendment. In adopting that amendment, I would like the Minister to now reflect on the invitation-to-apply provision in terms of transparency and certainty. Submitters to the select committee widely commented that that tool particularly failed to pass the test of transparency and certainty. The legislation makes it quite clear that the discretion to issue a letter of invitation lies entirely with the Minister. If the letter is not issued, then technically there is no right of appeal for potential applicants who have submitted an expression of interest. I doubt very much that people who are serious about wanting to receive a letter of invitation would dare to submit an expression of interest that did not incur a lot of cost. In order to secure that letter of invitation, they would therefore have gone through the process as if they were submitting a full application, with full documentation and incurring consultancy costs, or whatever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to challenge the Minister on is the current points system. I believe there are sufficient tools in that system for the Minister, or the Immigration Service, to achieve the aim of accepting applicants who would be of benefit to New Zealand. First of all, this points system is a two-step process by which the Cabinet can start to assign points to whatever the Government and officials deem to be appropriate on the day. For example, they could allocate points in respect of age, qualification, or vary the type of qualification that we believe New Zealand requires, or the background information, or even the relevant skills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut under this new changed system that the Minister has just explained to us, every 3 months the Government will look at the pool of people who have submitted expressions of interest and take those with the highest points. But the argument can be made that in that particular 3 months we might have people who just cross the threshold, but officials will still have to issue letters of invitation to the highest point-scorers, whereas in the second 3 months we might have applicants who all exceed the threshold by a lot. I think that system is actually limiting our ability to get the best candidates we can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWith the current points system, the Immigration Service, in consultation with the Minister, has to express \u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00222290637af9ba48168d5a5fa43e5d2b3d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222290637af9ba48168d5a5fa43e5d2b3d\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (NZ National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party\u2019s views on Part 2 have been reasonably widely canvassed, but I do not believe that the Government has heard enough constructive argument from speakers, apart from those of National, about issues to do with corruption. That subject is highlighted in clause 6, which deals with the issue of the invitation to apply for residence. That is a matter of discretion\u2014but for whom? That matter can be decided by the Minister, by a visa officer by the anointing of the Minister, or by an immigration officer by the anointing of the Minister. That discretionary power is of concern to us. National believes there is a need to get a better match of the skills of skilled residence applicants to suit the skill requirements of the New Zealand economy. There is no doubt about that, but we think it can be done in a more transparent manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI am not arguing that this particular Minister is open to corruption. She seems to me like a reasonable Minister from time to time, but she is setting herself up, and setting up all her colleagues\u2014those future Ministers who will follow in her footsteps over the next few months if her resignation comes about\u2014for suspicion in terms of corruption. A number of submitters pointed out that matter to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and it is a shame the Minister was not more in tune with those concerns. Submitters had concerns about the way in which that discretion would be applied in the issuing of invitations to apply for residency under clause 6. [Interruption] I am not casting those sorts of aspersions on the Minister. I am not suggesting that she would succumb to a packet of money\u2014not at all. My concern for the Minister is that she not only do the right thing but is seen to do the right thing, and, further, that the law provides she could only ever do the right thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ESection 10A(2), inserted by clause 6, states: \u201CThe question whether or not to issue such an invitation, or to revoke such an invitation once issued, is a matter for the discretion of the Minister or, subject to any special direction given under this Act, the appropriate visa officer or immigration officer.\u201D Upon that discretionary decision, no appeal against the decision of the Minister, the visa officer, or the immigration officer is allowed, even if the decision is questionable. Even if all of them took questionable action, there is no appeal. Further, subsection (4) states: \u201CNo review proceedings may be brought in respect of any refusal or failure of the Minister or a visa officer or an immigration officer \u2026\u201D. Even if the Minister or the Minister\u2019s officers are suspected of underhand behaviour or of being open to corruption in a particular decision, their decisions will not face an appeal and none of them will face review proceedings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI ask this Minister whether she really thinks that she herself, those who follow her, and those who work under her so diligently are so beyond reproach that they should not face appeal or review proceedings. That is of concern to me, and I would like the Minister to respond to that. She should not harp back to the fact that those points are already in the Act, but she should address my concern and say, regardless of whether to a greater or lesser degree the points are already in law, how she will address the issue of suspicion of corruption. That is my concern. I put it before the Committee, and, particularly, before the Chair as she considers the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022736566c674ae4da0b27914e6db796a55\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022736566c674ae4da0b27914e6db796a55\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa696a764c7a4bd296fb555f7f7da284\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa696a764c7a4bd296fb555f7f7da284\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak to Part 2 of the Immigration Amendment Bill. First, since no one else has, I thought someone should speak to the amendment moved by New Zealand First. I want to say a couple of things to the Committee. The first is that New Zealand First ought to explain its 100 percent change in policy. During the election campaign, I was on a platform with Winston Peters, and the number of permanent residents to come into New Zealand was 5,000. A year later, it has doubled. What has happened in the last 12 months? The Government has just arbitrarily picked out that figure. Then we were told by the youngest\u2014I do not want to make a reference to his age\u2014what is his name?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d599b2c7c01541d0b76bd2e2b77aceda\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Craig McNair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241cf670d2b76466786a5415861052e97\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that the reason for that is that Craig McNair spent 2 hours in a traffic jam. I say to members who are not Aucklanders that I have no doubt that that is so, but I say to Mr McNair that the idea that we would be living in a better country if we did not have any growth and development is ridiculous. The ACT party is in favour of an active immigration policy. We have no doubt that it makes a positive economic contribution to the country, as well as a positive cultural contribution, and if we had a figure of only 10,000 migrants to New Zealand we would have a net loss of population. I have been in towns where there is a net loss. Mr McNair should visit a former mining town to see whether he would like to go and live there. There is nothing more depressing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe next thing he should realise is that, although it is true that immigrants produce a bit of pressure on our hospitals and other systems, it is nothing compared with the positive contribution they make. Our universities would be in dire straits if they did not have overseas students, and I am surprised that New Zealand First does not know that. I also find that New Zealand First\u2019s contribution to this debate, for a party that states that it concentrates on immigration, is very disappointing. One would think that New Zealand First members would also be turning to the mechanisms that are to be applied. They have not got up and explained to us how they would do it and how they would select those 10,000 people. The Minister indicated that truck drivers would not qualify for permanent residence because permits are going to skilled people only. That is interesting. I ask the Minister where skills start, and what her definition of \u201Cnot skilled\u201D is. If the truck driver is an owner-driver of a truck that is worth maybe half a million dollars, is that a skilled occupation? How does she work out those sorts of arbitrary lines? That is the problem that I find with the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt appears to me that what the Minister is moving towards\u2014which would appeal to a Minister of Immigration\u2014is a situation in which the Minister can make totally arbitrary decisions that are actually unfair, not based on the real evidence, unjust, and with no appeal at all. There is a name for Governments like that. They are called police States. I note that New Zealand First, in its notes, referred to a person who gave evidence to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee who had been a lawyer in South Africa, and who said that the bill reminded him of aspects of South African law. That worries me. Coming from a Government with a rule of law, we think ministerial discretion ought always to be able to be reviewed. Although this Minister may not be unfair and discriminatory, this bill is not just for this Minister and this Government but\u2014heaven help us\u2014maybe for a New Zealand First Government, and we ought to be in a position\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022576dbdb87915454b9982fc5f46507cde\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022152cdc9fefcc4d958950845edca8ed07\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member who is interjecting is an immigrant to this country. I do not hold that against him. He is making a very good contribution, but I find it strange when I hear Cockney voices\u2014that member\u2019s deputy leader\u2014warning us against immigration. I say to the Committee that I would like to hear the Minister explain why she believes that not only herself but also future Ministers of Immigration, including, possibly, a New Zealand First Minister of Immigration, should not be subject to appeal. If that Minister is making unfair, arbitrary decisions that are in contradiction to the facts and that are based on prejudice\u2014even racial prejudice\u2014should there not be the ability to have an appeal? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022 data-id=\u00222bcfa4d8200447b6855a1afa33016943\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222bcfa4d8200447b6855a1afa33016943\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (NZ Labour\u2014Tainui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00222d60f3ff802047dbbc635c5be1a3333c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222d60f3ff802047dbbc635c5be1a3333c\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Madam Chair, for the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b28c86f7a1244a495d3c92c38e60601\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: You\u2019ve got to answer that, haven\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0b620c921842fd8bbb7743d90d70d3\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I must answer that speech made by the Hon Richard Prebble\u2014I was about to say the \u201Cmember for Auckland Central\u201D. He made a totally uncalled-for remark about New Zealand First\u2019s election policy regarding immigration numbers. I will read out to him our immigration policy from the \u201CWhat the parties say about\u201D leaflets. It states that we would cut immigration approval to 10,000 per year; there would be increased penalties for breaches of immigration laws; there would be a 3-year probation for immigration, during which lawbreakers would be deported; there would be pre-arrival health screening, including for HIV. Clearly, our policy was 10,000, and that is why I have put forward an amendment to the Immigration Amendment Bill in order to make sure that the numbers coming in are limited to 10,000. I know it is a fairly crude amendment, but it is one way of making the point as to just what our policy is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI also appreciate Mr Prebble\u2019s reference to the New Zealand First minority report, in so far as this legislation is concerned. That is particularly relevant to Part 2. We had evidence from the Auckland District Law Society stating that, as a result of this bill, the immigration system could not be trusted, the system proposed by this legislation could be used in a discriminatory or racist manner, the system could be open to corruption, and immigration officers could use the powers contained in the legislation to issue unreasonable and unnecessary conditions on permits or make special conditions, etc. unclearly, inaccurately, or with ambiguity. No respectable party in the House could possibly support legislation that is as wide and as far-reaching as this legislation. Obviously, the minority Labour Government and the Progressives, as well as United Future, can support legislation that is open to corruption, that could be discriminatory or racist, and, as Justin Glyn, a solicitor from Auckland, said, reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa. That is the sort of result that we could have from this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe read in the August 2003 issue of Auckland Today that immigration consultants are saying that this Government can use those powers discriminatorily. If a New Zealand First Government had brought in this legislation, I can imagine all the hours we would be staying up day and night with the Labour Party trying to oppose it. But, no, a Labour Government has brought it in\u2014quite extraordinary. If Government members had been on the hustings at the last election saying they would bring in this legislation, there would have been all sorts of problems. I remember the last shots of the Prime Minister on election night with people of Indian origin standing around her, suggesting that that was the New Zealand of the future. She gave that sort of impression during her election campaign. Now we have legislation, which, as Pansy Wong has indicated already, in so far as lapsing 20,000 applications is concerned, involving 45,000 people, seems mostly to affect people of Indian origin. We have seen already that this latest system cannot be trusted and that it can be used in a discriminatory way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf course New Zealand First cannot support this type of blatantly\u2014and even covertly\u2014discriminatory legislation. Our policies are clear, and it was interesting to see how close they are\u2014if not similar or identical\u2014to the Council of Trade Unions\u2019 views on the type of people who should come into New Zealand. Mr Prebble has said we should go to a town that has no people in it. We have those towns today, and we have 190,000 people coming into New Zealand. The problem is that they all come into Auckland. What is the point of saying we will have all these people coming in, when they do not go to those small towns that are now closed\u2014they go only to Auckland. How many come to Wellington? Nobody. I walk down Lambton Quay and it is the same as it used to be in 1984. There has been virtually no change whatsoever, except that everything is looking much more attractive. The businesses are doing well, tax money is coming in because of all the tourism-based economy that we have, but there are no Asians in Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670d2118e7b04fc58aca0a74e1d713a8\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s because of the Labour Government. Everything\u2019s going well under the Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022402e83ce736e4eb2b16e7450266c8d14\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr David Benson-Pope can make as much noise as he likes\u2014I am sure they are not in Dunedin, either. All his constituents know he is sitting in the House, now that I have brought him into the debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis legislation does nothing for the small towns of New Zealand. They are still struggling along. Tourism is helping them considerably, but tourism is quite different from immigration. In so far as universities are concerned, Auckland University\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa6e20a79896479b851bae259a944fae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa6e20a79896479b851bae259a944fae\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227e0aee7698db4d5ebf94b128934791f1\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000615\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dail Jones to clause 7(1)(a) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000616\u0022\u003Eto add, after the word \u201Cpolicy\u201D, the following words: \u201C, provided that the policy will ensure that no more than a total of 10,000 residence visas or residence permits in total are issued per annum.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022889718fa0d9d4b449116006301964d88\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 13\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 103\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000617\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 131 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel to insert new clause 15A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226484d1e3e045440b9b4ea551fb6f21da\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. This is the one that was the subject of the debate, so we have pro forma support for it, but obviously we will be voting against the clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022883aa0fdbf22404d9180c84a54b2db86\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee9a00ce9e4446ca87467b71c2116c69\u0022\u003ESchedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00224bf6cf4e3d6343979ed486d7a2fb2fad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bf6cf4e3d6343979ed486d7a2fb2fad\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The schedule mainly relates to the name change from the Residence Appeal Authority to the Residence Review Board. We received relatively few submissions relating to that, and I remember that the Auckland Law Society expressed concern over the lack of information about the nature of that change. The Minister might like to take a call to assure the public that this name change itself will not lead to a particular change in the extent of authority, due to the fact that the word \u201CAuthority\u201D is being substituted with the word \u201CBoard\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI would like to reflect on what the future workload of the Residence Review Board might be. First of all, we know that in the main part of the bill the New Zealand Labour Government introduced the world\u2019s first migration tool kit, which is known as the \u201Cinvitation to apply\u201D. That means that anybody who wishes to apply to migrate to New Zealand need only, first of all, to submit an expression of interest. If those applicants do not receive a letter of invitation, there will be no review and there are no rights of appeal. So I can imagine that, for a start, quite a bit of the workload of the Residence Review Board will be reduced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EBut a disturbing fact is that during the select committee hearing process we were told by consultants from the New Zealand Association of Migration and Investment that, under the current system, some 60 percent of appeals were upheld because of miscommunication or different technical interpretation accepted by some New Zealand Immigration Service officials overseas that contradicted the policy or regulations of the immigration system. We were told in the select committee that some 60 percent of those appeals were upheld, so, first of all, I would like the Minister to take a call to tell us whether the expressions of interest of the first lot of people to lodge those will be examined in a way that ensures that no technical error or miscommunication has applied to them, so they might gain enough points to receive a letter of invitation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI think it is important that the Minister has adopted my amendment, in terms of making sure that the immigration system is transparent and certain. I hope she will take a call to explain to us what sort of balances and checks will exist in the system, because those rights of appeal have been removed from the people who lodged expressions of interest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E We also heard during the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2019s hearing, that there is quite a tough requirement if there is any change of circumstances for those applicants who receive letters of invitation. They have immediately to inform the Immigration Service\u2014that is, all of the burden of proof lies with the applicant. Some of us might say: \u201COK. Fair enough. If you want to come to New Zealand and there are any changes, you must inform the authority.\u201D But we want to know whether there is such a burden of proof on the applicant to make sure that he or she has got everything correct. We want to know whether a reciprocal system of balance and checks exists within the service, so that whenever it has queries about applications, the applicants are kept informed. In that way, they would have the opportunity to explain to the service whether all the papers they lodge or the statements they make are true and correct, and that no misunderstanding has occurred. That might remove the need for applicants to apply to the appeal authority later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00220b067799848e40cb80cab973931936ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b067799848e40cb80cab973931936ff\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I note that this is a debate on the schedule, which is simply putting into effect the decision already made in Part 2 to rename the Residence Appeal Authority as the Residence Review Board. But, given that the member has raised substantive issues that really ought to have been dealt with in Part 2, I am not going to be too hard on her failure to raise them in the debate on Part 2. She has raised them in the debate on the schedule, but this really is not the right time to raise issues of substance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EHowever, I really do want to correct a point that she made about a reference. The submission that was received from the New Zealand Association for Migration and Investment should not be presented to the Committee as if it were an accurate reflection of actual numbers. I have the departmental report in front of me, which I will quote from now: \u201CIt is of note that comparatively small numbers of people would be affected by the changes. Contrary to claims made in submissions, in only 2 percent of cases did the RAA reverse the NZIS decision as being incorrect and order the grant of a residence visa or permit, which was down from 5 percent in 2001-02. In a further 26 percent of cases, the NZIS assessment was cancelled and referred back to the NZIS for a correct assessment.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003ELet me say something about that 26 percent. Under the current law, when the Immigration Service knows that it has made an error, people still have to appeal to the Residence Appeal Authority in order to get an error known by the Immigration Service corrected, because the service has no power under the existing Immigration Act to correct its own mistakes. This bill allows it to correct its own mistakes, so that 26 percent of cases can now go directly to the Immigration Service, which can accept that: \u201CYes, an error has occurred.\u201D, instead of advising, as it has until now, that: \u201CWe know we\u2019ve made an error, but there\u2019s nothing we can do about it because we\u2019ve made a decision, and that decision can\u2019t be reversed by us. You will have to go to the Residence Appeal Authority or send another letter to the Minister.\u201D\u2014which seems to be a course of action that a number of people adopt, as well. So the Immigration Service will be able to amend its own errors under Part 2 of this bill, which we have already dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI should also make the point that in the 26 percent of cases that were cancelled and referred back to the Immigration Service for a correct assessment, only 10 general skills applications decided off shore were included, and only 10 business decisions, with the majority of cases being family-sponsored stream applications that will retain appeal rights under the proposed changes. Having listened to the same evidence that has been raised in the House tonight, the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee decided not to proceed with the original intention, which was to limit the rights of appeal to those who were on shore, to those who were sponsored by a close family member, or to an employer prepared to sponsor the appeal to the Residence Appeal Authority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe name is being changed from the Residence Appeal Authority to the Residence Review Board to shift away from the idea that the system is an entitlement-based system, and I do not resile from that for one minute. I believe we are making an important change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn respect of the language in the bill, a number of people have commented that it is the language of discretion, and I point out that that is what the existing Act says. We have made it very clear that we are going to review the Immigration Act in total\u2014and the select committee has accepted that. We are going to get the language right, and I invite members to participate in that review when it occurs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002285afe17383e94491af33e7ce4ff3bee9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285afe17383e94491af33e7ce4ff3bee9\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Minister for making a contribution. I think that is very parliamentary of her, and I commend her action in doing that. I will reciprocate by not taking a very long call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI want to raise one question. The Minister talks about the language, and if members look at the schedule, they will see\u2014as the Minister correctly said\u2014that most of it is devoted to changing the name of the Residence Appeal Authority to a Residence Review Board. When we look at the parts of the bill we have agreed to at the moment, we see that, on the face of it, it is not obvious why that change is being made. Indeed, reading further, when the bill refers to the Residence Review Board for the first time, it says it is exactly the same as the authority. Section 18B(1), inserted by clause 12, states: \u201CFor the purposes of this Act there is a board called the Residence Review Board. The Board is the same body as the Residence Appeal Authority \u2026\u201D, so the question one has to ask is: why the name change? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI am left with the impression that the Government really wants to indicate to the courts, which may be reviewing that body, that it is a body not able to review the Minister, and not able to be a real appeal authority and look at what has happened. It is a much lower body indeed. When one looks at the parts of the bill\u2014which we have already agreed to, so I am not going to go further\u2014one sees that all sorts of actions that were able to be reviewed are no longer able to be reviewed. I make the point to the Minister that I do not agree with that name change. I do not agree with the idea that Ministers and civil servants should be above the law. The ACT party believes in the rule of law, and we think the rule of law should apply to everyone\u2014in particular, to Ministers of Immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00227db1d59bdfd340c593e621e904628a3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227db1d59bdfd340c593e621e904628a3a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This is indeed a strange amendment by the Government. It is almost as if the Government has a fetish for giving new names to things. We have come across new names for Crown land, which is to be called \u201Cpublic domain\u201D, and now we have the Residence Review Board taking over from the Residence Appeal Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs the Law Society said on page 9 of its submission, no reason has been given for the renaming of the Residence Appeal Authority. In a way, it makes it very hard to attack the provision if there is no reason for it, though it is perhaps consistent with the unilateral way in which a Government\u2014and this Government\u2014could apply the bill and the various discretions contained in it. If the Government can change the name of the Residence Appeal Authority\u2014which has a certain ring about it, given that it concerns an appeal and is an authority, but with the main word being \u201CAppeal\u201D\u2014to the Residence Review Board, is it trying to indicate that the body is a totally different one, as the Hon Richard Prebble suggested? To some extent, it obviously is different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Government, by the way it is acting under this legislation, has opened itself up to all the criticisms mentioned in relation to Part 2. One has to scratch one\u2019s head in absolute wonderment as to why we should waste the time of Parliament, the parliamentary draftsmen, the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, and all those people who made submissions with about three and a bit pages of amendments just so the Government can get a kick out of changing the name of the Residence Appeal Authority to the Residence Review Board. It is extraordinarily strange. It is an utter waste of money and a waste of time. To prove my point, I will leave it at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccc6c4a43d844c6cb05f1ec876ebf90c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccc6c4a43d844c6cb05f1ec876ebf90c\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I have taken some interest in the parts of the schedule, because, like those who have spoken before me, I was scratching my head and wondering why it was that Part 1 of the schedule consists entirely of a series of name changes from \u201CResidence Appeal Authority\u201D to the new \u201CResidence Review Board\u201D. Part 2 makes a similar change in relation to the Electronic Transactions Act. If members go back to new section 18B in clause 12, they will be interested to see the wording: \u201CFor the purposes of this Act there is a board called the Residence Review Board. The board is the same body as the Residence Appeal Authority\u201D. Again in clause 12(4): \u201CThe Residence Review Board is the same body as the Residence Appeal Authority that existed immediately before the commencement of this Act,\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EOn the face of it we have a schedule, the sole purpose of which\u2014and I listened to the Minister\u2019s explanation\u2014is to change the name of the existing Residence Appeal Authority to Residence Review Board. I imagine this will lead to a bold and exciting new era for those involved in this august body. No doubt, the new Residence Review Board can call in the design consultants to provide a brand new logo and letterhead. No doubt, it will be able to refurbish the offices, get a nice new logo, and invite the Minister along to cut a ribbon. It will have some material for the next version of the Immigration Service newsletter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fce53e1e70d427eba87633085a1c395\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: In M\u0101ori!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022376e91f6753240909cb26a4b8ebe51c1\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, of course, a new M\u0101ori name for the new Residence Review Board. I am sure the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has already advised his colleague the Minister of Immigration on a suitable name. The board will have to appoint a cultural officer\u2014a kaihaut\u016B, a spiritual leader\u2014to guide this new Residence Review Board waka into the future. The whole thing could get somewhat out of hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ELooking at the schedule, in the first instance, one has to ask whether we will see another one of these wonderful exercises that we have seen under this Government where we have the same thing, with the same people, doing the same job, with a different name, with a new logo, and with a whole new bunch of photographs of the Minister in the Immigration Service magazine\u2014no doubt touched up by the same people who do the touching up for the Prime Minister\u2019s photographs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EI listened to the Minister\u2019s explanation. She said this was being done to move away from the old entitlement-based system. That is one way of putting it, but another way of putting it is to say that it is moving away from a system where the rules were clear and where the actions of everyone involved were subject to review, to a system of scrutiny, whereby for the most part no such review is possible, which means that the actions of those who are currently subject to scrutiny, currently subject to review, will no longer be subject to such scrutiny and review. That seems to be enormously convenient. It is enormously convenient for the Minister, and even more convenient for her officials, because I am sure that once they have got past the distraction of the review by the Secretary of Labour, over the next day or two, and once they have got past the review by the Ombudsman\u2014for misleading the Ombudsman under the Official Information Act\u2014I am sure they will be exhausted. The last thing they will want to have is some examination and independent scrutiny of their actions by a Residence Appeal Authority. Having something called a Residence Review Board, which will not actually subject their actions to review, will be very welcome, indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002264c4dedd7904445e9daf3eb6cfc79f06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264c4dedd7904445e9daf3eb6cfc79f06\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u0022884fbd96b6ac4c9681df924818190dc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884fbd96b6ac4c9681df924818190dc8\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to the schedule, my excellent colleague the Hon Murray McCully has just pointed out to the Committee what is provided for in clause 12, where it describes what this Residence Review Board is. The schedule, right the way through the principal Act, replaces \u201CResidence Appeal Authority\u201D with \u201CResidence Review Board. It is extraordinary that new section 18B(1) in clause 12 states: \u201CFor the purposes of this Act there is a board call the Residence Review Board. The board is the same body as the Residence Appeal Authority\u201D. Some people might say: \u201CAha! Hang on! While it might be the same body, maybe the Government intends to change the membership, and maybe it will be a different body.\u201D Oh, no! That is not the case, at all. If members look at clause 12 they will see that a little bit has been stuck in under subclause (4). I understand that new paragraph (c) was put in at the request of the Residence Appeal Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ad2c05ddf4e47588648e7528d925e8c\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve already done that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e24f87919984addb9ac43f3f2e2168c\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I know, but it is important to understand what the schedule is doing. The schedule is not even changing the membership of the Residence Appeal Authority. That new paragraph (c) stuck in under clause 12(4) states: \u201Cthe persons who, immediately before the date of commencement of this Act, were members of the Residence Appeal Authority continue as members of the Residence Review Board on the same terms and conditions as applied before that date:\u201D. What is just dumb is to go to all the expense of changing the name of a board when no element of it is to be changed\u2014nothing! There will no change to the membership. Even the chairperson is not changing. This bill protects the position of the chairperson. New paragraph (c)(ii) states: \u201Cthe person who, immediately before the commencement of this Act, was chairperson of the Residence Appeal Authority continues as chairperson of the Residence Review Board for the period specified in that person\u2019s notice of appointment as chairperson.\u201D If nothing is being changed to do with the board itself\u2014not changing any of the membership, not changing the chair of the board\u2014what on earth is the Government doing, apart from squandering taxpayers\u2019 money? My good colleague Mr McCully mentioned that the logo will have to change, because obviously \u201CResidence Review Board\u201D is not the same as \u201CResidence Appeal Authority\u201D. There will be all new stationery and everything to do with this body will have to change, and for what purpose when nothing of substance is being changed? This Labour Government is so good at this sort of thing. We used to negotiate things called free-trade agreements in this country, but not with Labour in Government. It does closer economic partnerships, which are just weasel words for the same thing. We negotiated a free-trade agreement with Singapore, but Labour turned it into a closer economic partnership. We negotiated the heads of agreement for a free-trade agreement. I signed them personally. However, it is the same stupidity and same political correctness to change words at huge cost to the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E I think that anyone listening to this debate would have to ask what on earth the Government is doing this for. No element of the Residence Appeal Authority is being changed. When we look back through the legislation we have just been debating, it makes it so clear that nothing is being changed\u2014not the purpose of the board, not the membership of the board, not the chairmanship of the board. The only things that are being changed are the expensive things like the logo and the stationery. All that stuff has to be changed. As my good colleague Murray McCully pointed out, probably these days with this politically correct Labour Government, the board does have to have a kaihaut\u016B, and we know how expensive they are. This kind of stupidity and wastage should stop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002218f84f7fd8134a388a1d85e7fea87140\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218f84f7fd8134a388a1d85e7fea87140\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b17457db4404a508c3d85b3d42d90a7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022229f5458c3af46b1b48505b19368fb78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the schedule be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedule agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000650\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221cb3edf147a4456baf286baff3ef90bf\u0022\u003EJudicial Matters Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022927333578a734b57844b50af2641851e\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd31b1cc78254a5aa9bc6434a1418903\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd31b1cc78254a5aa9bc6434a1418903\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Judicial Matters Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Justice and Electoral Committee for consideration, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe bill is an important piece of constitutional legislation. The measures in it are aimed at maintaining and enhancing public confidence in the judiciary, and recognise the fundamental importance in a democracy of ensuring an independent judiciary in addressing judicial resources. The bill also responds to this Government\u2019s commitment to revisit, update, and consolidate the laws and procedures that delineate the relationship between the judiciary and other branches of Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe bill is divided into two parts. The first part will become a stand-alone Act, and the second part amends various existing statutes and will be split into the relevant amendment Acts. Part 1 establishes new processes for dealing with complaints about the conduct of judges and those rare situations when it may be necessary to consider removal of a judge. A new office of the Judicial Conduct Commissioner will be established. The commissioner\u2019s role will be to receive and process complaints about judges, to identify those requiring a full investigation because they raise a question of removal of a judge. The Judicial Conduct Commissioner will have the power to dismiss complaints that are frivolous, vexatious, and trivial, and may refer complaints to the relevant head of bench. If the Judicial Conduct Commissioner is of the opinion, following an initial examination, that an inquiry into the complaint is necessary, and that the complaint, if substantiated, may warrant removal of the judge, he or she will report to the Attorney-General and recommend appointment of a Judicial Conduct Panel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe Judicial Conduct Commissioner will be appointed by the Governor-General, on the recommendation of this House. Before a recommendation is offered, the Governor-General and the Attorney-General must consult with the Chief Justice and advise the House that consultation has taken place. The Judicial Conduct Commissioner must be a person whose impartiality and integrity is beyond question, and in whom the public and the judiciary may have confidence. A retired judge or other senior figure may be able to fulfil the role. The commissioner is a statutory appointee. The office of the commissioner will be located, for administrative convenience only, within the Ministry of Justice. The commissioner will be under a duty to act independently and will not be accountable to the Secretary for Justice in carrying out the functions of the office. Every year the commissioner will provide a report, which will be laid before this House and contain information about the complaints process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe Judicial Conduct Panel will play a crucial role in maintaining public confidence in the judiciary. It will inquire into a serious complaint that has been referred to it by the Attorney-General. The panel may determine whether the conduct complained of occurred, and, if so, whether the conduct amounts to incapacity or misbehaviour that demonstrates a judge is unfit for office. The removal of a judge has never been necessary in this country, so the exact process leading to the dismissal has not been established. It is desirable for this process to be set out before it is required, as a hastily devised process may damage public confidence and impose risks to judicial independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe Judicial Conduct Panel will be made up of three people. There will be one lay member, who will be neither a judge nor a lawyer. The other two members will be a judge or a retired judge, and may include a senior member of the legal profession. The panel will be appointed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022121763b7f7754e17abbea465cdbce259\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is a requirement in this House that speeches be given in English or M\u0101ori. We are being treated to high-speed gabble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c399ad0e6537469192002921d7f84962\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cceeddec1414acc819fbb5a257b391e\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I would invite the Minister to slow down so we can hear what she is saying. She is reading from densely written typescript. It is almost impossible to hear on this side of the House. I appreciate she wants to get through the material quickly, but it would be good if the House could hear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f59aa53d7a645e3987023fe255bff6e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The issue is a debatable matter. The Minister has heard what has been said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7b16a37cde4dd3b8c74e0675a9095c\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to reflect on your ruling that this is a debatable matter. I totally concur with Mr Worth. It was an absolute bullet-like, repetitive gabble. I could not understand what the Minister was saying. She is reading from prepared notes, and that is not debatable. The House, or certainly the Opposition parties, could not understand what the Minister was saying.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c588f55c6d63451f8a2843de5892402e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. The way in which a Minister delivers his or her speech is not a matter of order. It is entirely up to the Minister concerned. The member is playing with the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe3c4d3cab74391a1fb194e53f60324\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise if honourable members could not follow me. I assumed they had read the bill, which has been tabled. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe panel will be appointed by the Attorney-General, after consultation with the Attorney-General. Judges of the High Court, the Court of Appeal, and the Employment Court are subject to removal by the Attorney-General, on the grounds of incapacity or misbehaviour, on an address from this House. Other judges are subject to removal by the Governor-General, on the grounds of inability or misbehaviour. In the case of other judges the Governor-General acts, by convention, on the advice of the Attorney-General. There are no changes proposed to these arrangements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EPart 2 implements various proposals to strengthen judicial independence, or address judicial resources. Amendments will be made to the relevant Acts to enable judges of all benches to work part time. Flexible working arrangements are increasingly possible and desirable in the modern workplace and should be available to judges, subject to the needs of the courts in which they sit and the needs of the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E The bill provides an absolute immunity from suit, to be extended to all judges. At present, judges of the Court of Appeal, High Court, and Employment Court have absolute immunity from suit in respect of actions taken against them in their role as judges. Judicial immunity promotes judicial independence by allowing the fearless performance of the judicial function. It does not preclude other remedies for persons aggrieved by the actions of a judge. Appeal to a higher court is, and should be, the primary remedy for a litigant who is dissatisfied with the judge\u2019s decision. Judicial immunity does not exclude compensation from the Crown in cases of miscarriage of justice, and, in cases of misbehaviour or incapacity that indicates a judge is unfit for the office, he or she may be removed. Criminal prosecution for corruption remains available, and there are formal complaints processes that are strengthened by the proposals for a judicial conduct commissioner and a judicial conduct panel. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe bill contains proposals that will strengthen the office of Master of the High Court by providing the masters with the same rights of permanent tenure as other judges. Masters will also have a new title\u2014Associate Judge of the High Court\u2014that more accurately reflects their role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ETwo proposals in the bill directly address issues of judicial resources. Firstly, the bill provides a new mechanism for setting a maximum number of judges in the High Court and the District Court. Currently when the number of judges is at a maximum, separate legislative amendments to the District Courts Act and the Judicature Act are required each time an additional judge is needed in the District Court or High Court, respectively, to deal with increased workloads. Under the new proposal, the maximum number of judges in those courts will be raised by Order in Council. The order will come into effect once it has been converted by resolution in this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe changes to the tenure and role of the Principal Family Court Judge and the Principal Youth Court Judge included in the bill are intended to provide a regular turnover in the administrative leadership of those functions by introducing a fixed 8-year, non-renewable term. The changes are made in a manner that recognises the principle of judicial independence and, therefore, will not affect the present Principal Youth Court Judge or Principal Family Court Judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe bill enables community magistrates to be appointed on a temporary warrant after they have reached the mandatory retirement age, and also consistent with provision of District Court judges. It also provides for future Environment Court judges and commissioners to be appointed by the Governor-General, on the recommendation of the Attorney-General after consultation with the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs. The effect is that all judges, with the exception of the Chief Justice and the judges of the M\u0101ori Land Court, will be appointed on the recommendation of the Attorney-General. This proposal will help in promoting coherence, consistency, and professionalism in the appointments process, and is the appropriate match with the Attorney-General\u2019s role as the Government\u2019s senior law officer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EI commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002206b90d6750a149d3b4eed8fab41dc25f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002206b90d6750a149d3b4eed8fab41dc25f\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Would it not be great if we had a confidence that the Attorney-General believed in the merits of this bill? We have been treated to a gabbled speech, read at high speed from closely written typescript. I would like to start, if I may\u2014and against the background of the interruptions from the Minister of Defence; we all know about his legal experience, do we not?\u2014with the overview provisions in the explanatory note of the bill. The Government asserts that collectively the measures are aimed at maintaining and enhancing public confidence in the judiciary, and recognising the fundamental importance in a democracy of ensuring an independent judiciary and addressing judicial resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI have to say, with a measure of sadness, that National supports this bill going to a select committee. We do so with significant reservations. For my part, those reservations centre on two things: first of all, the absence of provisions relating to judicial appointments; and, second, the provisions relating to the appointment of part-time judges. I do not take any heart from the fact that in material produced by the New Zealand Law Society, Law Talk 610, dated 1 September 2003, this comment appears: \u201CMargaret Wilson said work on proposals for such an office\u201D\u2014that is, relating to the appointments process\u2014\u201Cwas continuing, with final decisions expected by the end of the year.\u201D So here we have an incomplete, imperfect bill that fails to deal with what is really the critical issue confronting the judiciary today, which is that related to judicial appointments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is a growing apprehension in the community, and I speak of the legal community and the non-legal community, about the ability of the Attorney-General to make merit-based recommendations on judicial appointments. There are two reasons for that, I suggest. The first is related to the innate limitations of the Attorney-General\u2019s decision-making process, and the second is a bias that she has against merit selection. There are multiple illustrations of mal-appointment, and they range through the judicial ranks. So on a quasi-judicial level they touch people like Susan Bathgate, Ella Henry, and Joris de Bres. In the District Court, unfortunately, there are also some recent examples. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Attorney-General may think that these affirmative action programmes are justified\u2014that political correctness is, in some way, justified. But I suggest that all parties lose from the process. Who are those parties? Well, the public lose because they lose confidence in the judiciary and the system of judicial administration. The second group of people who lose out are the litigants appearing before the courts. And, of course, not to be forgotten, another person who loses out is the judge who is out of his or her depth with the role entrusted to him or her. We have seen in the last 2 years, I would say, a number of judges appointed who are literally out of their depth. Why is that? It is because they have not been appointed on a merit basis. They have been appointed on a basis that reflects political correctness or affirmative action. I am interested to see the Minister of Defence\u2014the so-called know-all on matters relating to all things\u2014shaking his head, and intervening in the incautious way that he so often does. I pose the question: what would he know about these issues? What is the answer to that? Absolutely nothing. But confidence characterises this Minister of Defence, with flawed procurement policies in defence. He is, nevertheless, prepared to offer a view on anything and everything. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EParliament had been led to believe that legislation would shortly be forthcoming to deal with judicial appointments. I see opposite the hard-working chairman of the Justice and Electoral Committee\u2014a committee on which I, too, am privileged to sit. He has laboured under the same delusion as I have; that there would be shortly coming to the House\u2014particularly in the context of the Supreme Court Bill, which abolishes the Privy Council\u2014material of substance relating to judicial appointments. Well, he has been disappointed, I have been disappointed, and the other members of the select committee have been similarly disappointed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIt is a very curious position that in the context of the bill that plans to abolish the Privy Council, an informal process is to be embarked on for the appointment of the judges of our highest court. It is clearly a recognition that what is occurring at the moment, under the aegis of the Attorney-General\u2019s power, is unsatisfactory, because what she has proposed to establish is an informal advisory committee. And who are the players on that? Well, herself\u2014and I am sure she will be consulting herself\u2014the Chief Justice, the Solicitor-General, and a former Governor-General. I do not wish to criticise the former Governor-General who has been placed on the advisory committee, but I venture to suggest that he will find it very difficult to make a contribution to the sorts of issues that will be importantly before him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would like, if I may, to turn to a second issue, which, judging by the statements that the Attorney-General has made tonight, is clearly an important one. These are her plans in respect of part-time judges. Who would like a part-time, non-committed judge to sit in judgement on a particular case, if one were a litigant? The explanatory note states: \u201CProvisions in the Bill allow for Judges to sit on a part-time basis in appropriate circumstances. The proposal will ensure that Judges have good work conditions consistent with EEO policies.\u201D What might that mean? \u201CIn the modern workplace, flexible working arrangements are increasingly desirable and achievable. The proposal may also assist with recruitment and retention of high calibre members of the judiciary.\u201D The explanatory note continues: \u201CPart-time work will be authorised by the Attorney-General, with the concurrence of the relevant Head of Bench. Part-time work will usually be sought for defined periods for reasons of health, family commitments, or approaching retirement.\u201D I would like to underscore those criteria relating to health or approaching retirement. If I were a litigant, I would not want a sick judge sitting on my case. If I were a litigant, I would not like an ageing and decrepit judge sitting on my case, where the amounts at issue might be significant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhere is the Attorney-General taking us, in respect of the Judicial Matters Bill? Nowhere good, I would say. A number of commentators have already offered insights into the merit of this legislation. I would like to ask some questions of the Attorney-General, noting her seated opposite and listening with rapt attention to the comments I now make. Here are two of the questions. Is it appropriate for the Attorney-General to become so directly involved in the management of the judiciary? How are the Attorney-General and Chief District Court Judge to choose between applicants for part-time positions where it is likely there is competition for such positions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u002239038e18b5b24856b1f2b82b235c7dd7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239038e18b5b24856b1f2b82b235c7dd7\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I will speak briefly, as chair of the Justice and Electoral Committee to which this bill is to be referred for public consultation and detailed consideration. The timing of the bill could barely be better. The select committee has been considering the Supreme Court Bill, as Mr Worth has just mentioned, for the past 5 months. That debate has raised a whole series of matters that are touched on in this legislation or are within the ambit of the debate that, undoubtedly, we are going to have around those issues. I am sure I can speak for the whole select committee when I say that we are keen and ready to address these matters. We are also currently out for consultation on the Lawyers and Conveyancers Bill. Additionally, as that bill is to revise the whole complaints system relating to the legal profession, it is highly relevant that in this legislation we are looking at a new complaints system relating to judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EMatters that affect the judiciary are inevitably of constitutional importance, as noted by the Minister. Such matters do deserve rigorous consideration, and I can undertake on behalf of the select committee that we will do our job, and do it very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00228ed1f5dfc9b4466f8e7edcc75e735ed7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ed1f5dfc9b4466f8e7edcc75e735ed7\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Judicial Matters Bill was heralded as being the answer to a considerable number of problems, including, in particular, the appointment of High Court judges. We heard from the United Future member of the Justice and Electoral Committee various comments that hinted that this bill would be covering those issues. Obviously he was not able to put any pressure on the Government to make sure that those issues were contained in this bill. I read with interest a comment in the paper indicating that United Future was going to vote against this bill. I will have to congratulate United Future members, if they do vote against this bill, on maintaining that standard. As far as New Zealand First members are concerned, we will support this bill going to the Justice and Electoral Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI do wonder about the bill\u2019s overall worth, when I look at Part 1. I can see the overall requirements in Part 2, regarding increasing the number of judges, and such like. But, really, I am a bit sceptical about setting up yet another commission. We are going to have a Judicial Conduct Commissioner who will be appointed by the Governor-General on the recommendation of the House of Representatives. That person is going to be appointed by the House of Representatives. We do not seem to have the privilege of being able to do this for the new Supreme Court judges, but we are going to appoint a Judicial Conduct Commissioner, by appointment through the House of Representatives. We manage to appoint the ombudsmen, and, I think, the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, who are parliamentary officers, through the House of Representatives, but we cannot appoint the new lot of Supreme Court judges, if the bill ever gets to that stage, by some sort of consultation though a select committee of this House or through some general approval by members of the House of Representatives, as happens for the ombudsmen. However, we can find space to appoint a Judicial Conduct Commissioner\u2014yet another one of these groups\u2014through the House of Representatives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat is this person going to do? He or she will receive complaints about judges, and will deal with those complaints in the manner required by this bill. It is difficult enough to get really good barristers to take on positions as judges, and now they are going to be confronted by some person\u2014and, as members of Parliament we have all had these people coming to see us\u2014saying: \u201CThat judge got it wrong. Now I am going to take it to various members of Parliament, and to the Minister. I am going to write to the editor, go to the ombudsman, and I\u2019ve got another one now. I can take it to the Judicial Conduct Commissioner.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b47521d7cac54ca39088a1f2a350fc26\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Who needs it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284cc0ea4427545f3a257efa276b97e73\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014who needs it? One wonders: just where do we go? We appoint people to be judges, and we now have to scrutinise everything they do. Do we not trust them, in the first place? Are they not the best in the land? Now we are going to have a person scrutinising them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the things that has been given to the judges\u2014and it is the lower court judges; usually at District Court level\u2014is that they can be the subject of civil proceedings, as I recall it, if they act in excess of jurisdiction. I see that this bill seems to be covering that immunity in so far as District Court judges are concerned. I guess that is something of a quid pro quo; I get the feeling it is a quid pro quo for this extra examination by this particular type of commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat is going to be the subject of the complaint? Clause 11 states that any person may make a complaint about the conduct of a judge. What on earth is that? People can complain about the conduct of a judge. Did he or she arrive late? Did he or she not ask the right questions? Did he not accept the person\u2019s evidence, and say the person was guilty of whatever it was\u2014when the person was obviously innocent and the whole world knew it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b8d4625a7804c5c9cc732b2b3334c8d\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: He dresses funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229716c0d596f2472c81c085a85a7cf881\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014does he dress funny? Does he have long hair? That could be the subject of a complaint. The judge might be a Rastafarian. We all know that Rastafarians on cannabis cases will probably be too strict with cannabis smokers! Judges get strange like that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E Any person can make a complaint about a judge. The complaint does have to be in writing, it must identify the judge who is the subject of the complaint, identify the complainant, and state the subject matter of the complaint. The bill has not been with us for too long, but I presume that the complaint must have been about a case in which the complainant was involved. If we do not have those busybodies who can go along to a court to say: \u201COh, that case wasn\u2019t handled very well, and I\u2019m going to make a complaint about the judge in that case, because that judge didn\u2019t do this, that, or whatever.\u201D, what sort of situation will we have? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe bill states that the commissioner must dismiss complaints that fail to meet a required threshold. What does that mean? Is the complaint frivolous, vexatious, or not in good faith? The type of people I am speaking about are people who will never accept that their complaint is frivolous, vexatious, or not in good faith. They believe very, very sincerely that their complaint is of the utmost importance, and nothing could be of the greatest requirement to ensure the highest standard of the judiciary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIn the short time I have been back in the House I have had letters complaining about the judiciary. I have heard all sorts of allegations about the judiciary. People do hold those views sincerely, but one must ask oneself whether the Government\u2019s answer is to set up a body that will get those people on their way to the commissioner, and maybe we will not see them again. I am sure that once they go to the commissioner and the case is rejected, they will be back to their MPs once more, and we will only have delayed the inevitable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as membership of the Judicial Conduct Panel is concerned, the Attorney-General may at any time appoint a Judicial Conduct Panel to inquire into and report on a complaint about a judge who has been the subject of a recommendation. A Judicial Conduct Commissioner is being appointed now, and that will be one nice job for somebody. One can see them all lining up now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd54891c42dc480c968cc39f19d7aab1\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: You can see Margaret\u2019s mates lining up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d79db26b9a249069f4db36b6a144565\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: One can see Margaret Wilson\u2019s mates all lining up for the job of Judicial Conduct Commissioner. However, on top of that, or below it, is the layer of Judicial Conduct Panel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f228d28976104814a170277a2bf39c86\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Joris de Bres can do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3a12da671a9493192928bb80e14d6ac\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, Joris de Bres could do that. Clause 21 refers to membership of panels. A Judicial Conduct Panel consists of the following persons, appointed by the Attorney-General\u2014and we know how good all her appointments can be. Two members will be judges, or a retired judge, etc., and there will also be a lay member. So here we go. We have jobs for the boys and girls. It is amazing how this Labour Party continues to create all those bodies, and such like. What is all this trying to achieve?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82bbdc0bc3440adb5b640de8f7834cd\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: How many have they got in Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d2cd43ff53a43a59ccfa108d2adaeca\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: They have about 24 in Cabinet. Just about everybody in the Labour Government has a job. If any of their friends do not have a job at this stage, then here is a chance for them to get one. Of course, if one is not satisfied, one can appeal to the Court of Appeal. What are we coming to? Judge Smith wore the wrong sort of shirt and tie. He was wearing his King\u2019s College tie or shirt, and did not go to St Paul\u2019s College in Ponsonby. I assume that would be frivolous or vexatious. However, one can take it that there will be cases where they will not be satisfied, and there will be an appeal to the Court of Appeal. What on earth is New Zealand coming to? We will be spending all this money on that particular body. I just wonder what we are coming to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe last point I want to comment on is the part-time judge. When my wife was teaching, at one stage she was involved in job-sharing. One of the teachers at the school had just had a child and my wife job-shared with her for a year. I expect that this provision probably relates to job-sharing for judges who have just had children\u2014males or females, in this day and age\u2014and there is some merit in it. However, one issue that has not been covered by the Minister is the system in the United Kingdom of having part-time recorders. The Minister does not even seem to have touched on this, but we could have a similar position of recorder; someone who has a trial run to see how good a judge he or she will be. That is the only reason I can see for having a part-time judge, similar to a recorder. Otherwise, as Richard Worth said, do people want a sick person to be their judge? Do they want some old fogey, as old as 67-plus, and who is not very well, either, to be a judge? This bill leaves a lot to be desired.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u002283eee51b8a4c4ded9bd1dc61cbf70c62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283eee51b8a4c4ded9bd1dc61cbf70c62\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call in the first reading debate on the Judicial Matters Bill. National will support the bill\u2019s referral to a select committee only because it probably has some reasonable provisions. Like my colleague Richard Worth, I note that there are also some worrying aspects to it as well, and I shall come to those. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe underlying aim of the bill is to maintain an enhanced public confidence with regard to the judiciary. That is a laudable aim, but it addresses only half the problem. Part of the notion of public confidence depends upon the confidence the public can have in those people who are appointed to the bench in the first place. The other aim of the bill is to adjust other matters within the judicial sphere to improve efficiency and consistency. We look forward to discussion in the select committee to see whether those objectives will be attained in any event. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe provisions of the bill set up a judicial complaints and removals process to deal with the situation if the removal of a judge is seen to be appropriate. It establishes a new role, a Judicial Conduct Commissioner, who acts independently to oversee complaints against judges, and comes to a view as to whether complaints need to be addressed. It establishes a Judicial Conduct Panel that would oversee any complaints that require an inquiry into a judge\u2019s conduct. That panel will be made up of three people\u2014a lay member and two with legal expertise. National has some reservations about that, and we will be looking fairly closely at the submissions made in that regard. Judicial immunity by suit is extended to District Court judges, Environment Court judges, Masters of the High Court, Courts Martial Appeal Court judges, and M\u0101ori Land Court judges. This seems to be an appropriate provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThere is also provision for judges to sit on a part-time basis in \u201Cappropriate circumstances\u201D. I am not sure what those circumstances will be. The bill sets out some comment on it, but, again, I would urge the select committee, as it considers this bill, to see whether that is a reasonable provision. My colleague Richard Worth has already addressed that, as well. It may be that the provision for part-time judges suits the personal or domestic circumstances of those who might end up sitting in a part-time manner. But I would query whether that is an appropriate way to man\u2014or woman\u2014a bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f5f072556fd41a98fc5fde4b7eba184\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, an old sick judge, covered by a rug, trying to dispense justice\u2014ridiculous! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b9771ecece4cf38478739a5fe4ec7e\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. That may be so, as well, but all I am saying is that I would have thought that the coherency and consistency of the bench depends upon judges sitting full time. There are other matters, as well. I shall comment on just two other matters that I think need close scrutiny. Principal Family Court judges and Principal Youth Court judges will now be appointed for a fixed 8-year non-renewable term. On the face of it, that may be reasonable, but I do not see any appropriate rationale for that occurring.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E Again, from my point of view, there would be the issue of consistency and continuity on those particular benches. The other matter I raise is the issue of Masters of the High Court being renamed Associate Judges of the High Court and gaining the same rights of permanent tenure as other judges. Although acknowledging the fine work that Masters of the High Court conduct and carry out, I question the appropriateness of that. I would have thought that they have different roles and responsibilities. What is the notion of an Associate Judge of the High Court? I do not know. One ought to be either a judge or a master. As I say, I raise a reservation about that as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAt the beginning of my speech I signalled that I thought there was a major flaw in this legislation in that it deals with only half of the problem, and, in my view, not even the more important half of the problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022424baf1c799a4447b43c1924c6f81c05\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s happening to Queen\u2019s Counsel? What are they doing with them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a71f0cd43fdf49da9d70c92cc8a711e4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. The member asked what is happening to Queen\u2019s Counsel. It is part of the issue of republican creep. I think that is what is happening in that regard. Slowly but surely we will degrade the whole thing. We will bring in part-time judges, we will make masters into judges, and now we are taking away Queen\u2019s Counsel, as well. Those are all things that are occurring in the wider scene under the hand of the Minister Margaret Wilson, and one has to question most things that she does, particularly her record of appointments. Although I think it is a bit incoherent to deal with removals and complaints and not deal with the issue of appointments at the same time, I suppose that if further work is being done in the area of appointments, then it may be a good thing because we may be able to find a way to ensure that if this Attorney-General is to be in charge of the legislation that sets up an appointment process, it is not subject to political interference. I think that is always the worry with this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I say, the public has a right to expect a bench of the highest order and the highest quality. This legislation deals with removing judges but does not really address the more critical issue, which is the way our judges are appointed to the bench and the way their tenure is characterised. I think that is a major flaw in this legislation. It is a pity that the Minister did not see fit to address both issues at once. After all, the work that sits behind this is the report completed by Sir Geoffrey Palmer, and I think that he certainly saw both of those responsibilities being addressed at the same time. I want to refer to some comments made by the former Attorney-General, Sir Douglas Graham, who publicly expressed reservations about possible political interference in the judiciary, inherent in this bill with the establishment of the Judicial Conduct Panel. I have already indicated that part of the concern there is probably due to the fact that a lay member will be part of the process and there is not a lot of detail as to the overall make-up of the panel. That is Sir Douglas Graham\u2019s comment\u2014an eminent former Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022548a34f955a640f599540c20679939a4\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Eminent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c09a40fd5e354fbda748904d532d1ef4\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, an eminent former Attorney-General who had no republican agenda in his mind, and would never support a downgrading of the judiciary in any way. He played it absolutely straight up and straight to the point, and he was very committed to those things that uphold the constitution. Such an important part of that is personnel\u2014those who man, and woman, our judiciary. We support the bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, but we certainly have reservations about it, and we will be looking to scrutinise those matters at the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002292755b6cc0bc4db3b2e556ddd7bacbe6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292755b6cc0bc4db3b2e556ddd7bacbe6\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this bill. It is a good bill, and I think we should facilitate its passage through the House. I am pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u00226686a1ae5ad04d79a583d1423eca3205\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226686a1ae5ad04d79a583d1423eca3205\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I concur with the National Party\u2019s view that this bill should really have dealt with the issue of appointments. United Future differs from the National Party in so far as we believe that the failure of this bill to deal with the appointment process is sufficient to warrant us not supporting the bill in its first reading. We believe that the Judicial Matters Bill was a golden opportunity for this Government to address the whole issue of how judges ought to be appointed, and to examine the various models available from overseas in order to determine whether, in particular, there should be a Judicial Appointments Commission. It is United Future\u2019s view that the availability of a Judicial Appointments Commission in order to do this is a step that we should be seriously examining in this country, following what is a growing trend overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EWe oppose this bill not so much on what is in the bill but on what is not, and the appointment process is the major item. Some of the other issues that I will deal with, such as fundamental flaws in the bill as it stands, are matters that could be addressed by the select committee and corrected. However, the appointment process, because of its substance, is not a matter that could be dealt with by the select committee. This Government, in its 1999 manifesto, promised the people that there would be an independent decision-making body for judicial appointments. The 1999 Labour manifesto promised an independent decision-making body for judicial appointments. Where is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b076273c2940b886d42160af280a7c\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ve got it\u2014the Hon Margaret Wilson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220c5a2baf63d472dad43ae49e6af880c\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: It does not reside in the Hon Margaret Wilson. However, in her press release she said that public confidence in the judiciary and judicial independence are of fundamental importance in a democracy. She said that it was important that judicial appointments and removals were more transparent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295c830645bc5425a9f9a8547fdaddcd1\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Who told her that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217b05fd0c44f41689b8dbc49d3a9c937\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: This is from her press release of 7 March this year. Well, we do not have a more transparent process. This bill does nothing to give us a more transparent process in judicial appointments. It does nothing to take it away from one person making the decision at the end of the day as to who should be on the bench of this country. That is not transparency. That is not independence. Private consultations with the Solicitor-General and the Chief Justice do not constitute transparency and independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIt is too easy for there to be political influence in the appointment of the judiciary. I acknowledge that there is no evidence in New Zealand that people have been able to point to to suggest that it has happened so far, but when I was at the Commonwealth Law Conference in Melbourne I was struck by just how politicised the judiciary just over the ditch has got. Seventeen out of the 35 appointments to the High Court, we know, are ex-politicians. I had dinner with some judges when I was there, and it was a topic of conversation as to why so-and-so had not been appointed to the bench. The answer was that he was too closely aligned with the Labour Party. Another comment made was that a person was likely to be the next Governor-General, depending on the outcome of the election. Australia has a very politicised system. Although that has not happened in New Zealand, I think it is an influence that will grow here. It is an influence that we need to provide for at this early stage, particularly when we are dealing with issues such as the Supreme Court and the appointment and removal process through this bill. This is our golden opportunity. If this bill goes through as it is, we will have lost that opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIt has been suggested that maybe a cross-party support of parties in terms of judicial appointments, at senior levels particularly, be used. United Future is not in favour of that, because we believe that politicians ought to be kept out of the process. Even though cross-party support gives a variety of views, politicians do have vested interests that they all share in common\u2014such as the supremacy of Parliament\u2014which would influence their decisions in terms of the judges who were acceptable. I think it is better that it is kept right out of the political process. We know that Canada, at provincial level, has a Judicial Commission. The new Caribbean Court of Justice is going to have its appointments dealt with through a Judicial Commission. The UK is currently examining having a Judicial Commission for appointments at the lower level at this stage. A number of African Commonwealth countries are now moving to judicial commissions. It is about time we looked at that issue. So, as I said, I believe that that is a serious flaw. United Future does not support this bill, because it does not deal with that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn terms of removal, the paper presented by Sir Geoffrey Palmer, upon which this Government is meant to have designed this bill, states that the commissioner would inevitably become a point of contact and clearing-house for complaints regarding the judiciary and could conveniently be advertised as a proper first port of call for complaints. The commissioner would be responsible for screening complaints. In most cases this would simply require forwarding the complaint to the relevant Head of Bench for handling through the judicial complaints lay observer process. In the case of non-serious complaints the statute would require that these be referred to the relevant Head of Bench. The current judicial complaints lay observer process, which does not need to be codified in statute, would then take over. Well, this bill does not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EClause 15 states that the commissioner must dismiss a complaint if it does not warrant consideration of removal of a judge. The only power of a commissioner to refer the matter to the Head of Bench is if the complaint is not dismissed. So we have a situation where Joe Blow citizen, having been dissatisfied with the way that a judge has conducted him or herself, approaches this new commissioner, who is touted as being the person to whom to refer complaints. And because the commissioner decides that, effectively, it is not a complaint that amounts to \u201Cserious enough conduct to warrant dismissal\u201D, he then rejects the complaint\u2014must dismiss the complaint.  He then writes back to the complainant: \u201CSorry, you don\u2019t qualify. Get lost!\u201D. Well, I can imagine what the public image of judges will be in that sort of judicial process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EWe all have received letters from people who feel dissatisfied with the way that the court process has worked. Some of the submissions we have heard on the Supreme Court Bill have been very full submissions about people who have repeatedly felt they have been poorly served by the judicial process. For such people to write to this new commissioner, with great promise, then get a rejection saying: \u201CWell, it\u2019s not serious enough. Get lost!\u201D, will do nothing to help to sustain the public view of the process. For that reason, I believe that is a serious flaw in the bill. As I said, that is a matter that could be corrected at the select committee, but my big concern about the bill is that those sorts of things show that this bill has been rushed and was ill conceived. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EWhen I was a student and had an assignment due the next day, once or twice\u2014probably more\u2014I worked through the night to get it finished, so I could hand it in the next day. This bill suffers from the same sort of late, rushed drafting that such a practice denotes, and therefore I give it four out of 10. Four out of 10 is not a pass mark, and therefore does not justify our party supporting the bill. It is important that the Government prepares legislation that is well-thought-through and is given the time to be properly thought through. I have to say that if United Future had been consulted on this bill before it entered the House, we might have been able to point out some of these things and get it into better shape for select committee consideration. We are opposing the bill. We believe that an appointments process needs to be looked at\u2014and that needs to be considered at this point; it should be in the first draft of the bill. We believe that the bill has been rushed and poorly thought through. In terms of the other recommendations, most of them, we believe, are probably fairly innocuous. It is a pity that this bill, which could have been such an important measure\u2014it was something we were looking forward to; we expected it to be significant\u2014has not been seen by this Government as an opportunity to look at the whole issue properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00227ee30964bed5463e8c4bbad3c88ef75c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ee30964bed5463e8c4bbad3c88ef75c\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Judicial Matters Bill, as previous speakers have said, is just one part of some significant reforms of the legal system being undertaken by this Government that the Green Party, in general, does support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c277d3da54f4db4b5144a46bc67423a\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: It doesn\u2019t support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec38db55edec440ebf3b4a48f47d05eb\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: It does support them, I say to Mr Worth. The Green Party will support this bill going to a select committee, and we look forward to hearing submissions on it, particularly in the context of a number of the issues raised by the Supreme Court Bill, as has been referred to previous speakers. We are pleased to see that the bill contains a number of changes to the management of the judiciary; we think a number of those changes are long overdue. But, as previous speakers have said, there are some important omissions in it, and we hope there will be an opportunity to address some of those things during the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EOf course, the bill has to be seen in the context of the review by Chen and Palmer of the judicial management system. The Judicial Administration Issues report, which was released last year, raised a number of important issues. One of the questions that the report looked to address was that of a judicial appointments commission. The Greens do support the establishment of such a body, as does United Future, as stated by Murray Smith. The Supreme Court Bill, which is currently before the Justice and Electoral Committee, has precipitated wide discussion, as members know, on the appointment process for judges in the context of the establishment of a domestic court of final appeal. Although there has been no suggestion that the process has been biased or corrupted in the past, there is growing interest in this country in removing judicial appointments from the realm of politics, as much as possible. The basic principle is that judges not only should be free of political influence but should be seen to be free of it. That is particularly important if we are to move to a domestic court of final appeal, such as a Supreme Court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThat general principle was acknowledged in the Chen and Palmer report. The report comments on the fundamental constitutional importance of the independence of the judiciary, continued\u2014and probably intensifying\u2014public scepticism about judicial independence, criticism of judicial accountability, and, of course, Labour\u2019s 1999 commitment to introduce an independent decision-making body for judicial appointments and removals. But the report did not go so far as to recommend an independent appointments body, which the Green Party believes is the obvious logical step to take given those stated concerns. The Greens are very keen to see the establishment of such a body, and we will be very interested in what submitters to the select committee say on that subject. Unlike Mr Smith, I do not agree that the Justice and Electoral Committee will be unable to look at that question. If it is raised by submitters, of course we will look at it, and we believe that there are a number of ways that such a thing could be introduced. This bill is the appropriate vehicle to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EA number of submissions on the Supreme Court Bill also addressed the question of the retirement age of judges. The ministerial advisory group on the Supreme Court also suggested that the question of the retirement age of judges generally should be looked at, although it did not express an opinion on that matter. That is also something the select committee should examine in the context of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe bill does some good things. We welcome the establishment of a Judicial Conduct Commissioner. We believe that this new position and process will increase public access to the complaints procedure, and it will also increase transparency in the complaints process, which is essential if we want to build public confidence in the judicial process. This position and process are particularly essential when judges are accorded the protection of absolute immunity from suit. Although there are good reasons for that protection, it needs to be properly balanced with a transparent process for public complaint. Judicial accountability is essential, given the extraordinary level of authority and coercive power that the judiciary holds over the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens also welcome the ability for judges to work part-time. We believe that this is an important facility if we want to attract more judges to the bench, and it is important if we want to attract judges who are committed to their families and to community activity as well. This provision will help to increase the diversity of judges and, perhaps, as a result, their temperament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens are pleased to see the capacity to increase the number of District Court and High Court judges. One of the major issues for our judicial system is the delays for individuals and their families who either seek justice in the court or are subject to the force of the law. We believe that long delays between hearings cause considerable uncertainty, unnecessary disruption to families, and hardship. Given that the court process is an intimidating and complex process, this uncertainty and disruption will be assisted to some degree by, effectively, increased court sitting time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe bill, as I have said, has a number of omissions, but the Green Party believes that it is a useful place to start. On that basis we are supporting it going to a select committee and look forward to hearing submissions at that stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00223622efb1b30549f1ac7c97ba62a270dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223622efb1b30549f1ac7c97ba62a270dd\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party will vote on this bill in the same way as the United Future party will\u2014against it, even at its introduction. But we would be less likely to vote that way if the Associate Minister of Justice, Margaret Wilson, had not introduced it with a reference motion that would suspend or avoid the operation of the Standing Orders, in order to have the bill rammed through the select committee process together with, or almost at the same time as, the Supreme Court Bill, essentially as a decoy action. What the introduction of this bill at this time does is simply enable members of this House who do not want to face the reality of what the Supreme Court Bill is doing, to postpone and put off to the consideration of this bill matters that really should be dealt with before the Supreme Court Bill passes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ESo this Judicial Matters Bill is a very empty bill. It is a bill that should be rejected out of hand because it does not do a fraction of what even Labour said it wanted to do about judicial appointments. It is simply a device to enable the Government to persuade the more weak-minded members in this House that they are not avoiding their duty in postponing to a bill such as this things that are critical to the establishment of a new Supreme Court\u2014if that is to be rammed through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAll that this bill really does is appoint a judicial discipliner\u2014as the Green member has just said, someone he expects to manage the judiciary. Does that phrase not send shudders down the spines of those of us who know anything about the constitution? The Green member said he welcomed this bill for the better management of the judiciary. That is what this bill is to do\u2014put the judiciary under the thumb of someone appointed at the absolute discretion of the Attorney-General. This bill says it is on the motion of the House of Representatives, but, of course, it does not have in it anything simple to ensure cross-party support, such as the words \u201Cwith the approval of the Leader of the Opposition\u201D, or perhaps \u201Cwith the approval of leaders of parties representing 66 percent\u201D\u2014or 75 percent\u2014\u201Cof the members of the House\u201D. No, this bill is simply a provision for the Attorney-General to appoint a person congenial to her, to ensure the judges are politically correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen we see the criteria for considering complaints, and the duty on the Judicial Conduct Commissioner to consider the complaints, we can see that there has been no desire to constrain them. The commissioner must consider the complaints. Even if the commissioner concludes that they are about matters that could not result in removal, they must still be considered and go through this process. I believe that the Attorney-General thinks that will be highly educative for the judges. In other words, it is to ensure that the judges feel the heavy, hot breath of the regulator over their shoulders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f99f9f6d2f4fec968ddaad7d40ebf9\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: The heavy, hot breath of the Attorney-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272f0a341359d4dc5ad6bbd9d505cad0b\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The heavy, hot breath of the Attorney-General, as Mr Worth says. The Judicial Conduct Commissioner would be free to look into complaints about the dress sense of a judge, the religion of a judge, perhaps the sexual preferences of a judge, or perhaps the lack of obsequiousness of a judge. Perhaps he or she will look into the failure of a judge to attend the brainwashing sessions that the judges now have to attend, where they all sit in ritual obeisance, listening to imported harridans telling them how beastly they are to women or to other minorities whom the Government wants to favour. Any of those things could be considered by the Judicial Conduct Commissioner, and would have to go through the motions that would allow the commissioner to form an opinion whether the complaint, if substantiated, could warrant consideration of the removal of the judge from office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut there is nothing in this bill that tells us what a judge can be removed for. There is nothing here that gets over the fact that a former Minister of Justice, the Rt Hon Doug Graham, did not have the courage to get rid of judges who had patently trashed the reputation of the judiciary in this country. The Rt Hon Doug Graham left those judges in position and would not bring a motion to the House, and this bill does not do anything about that. This bill says that the Judicial Conduct Commissioner will report to the Attorney-General, and the Attorney-General then will face exactly the same pressures that the Rt Hon Doug Graham could not face. We still do not know whether there will be a motion before the House. We do not even know whether the House can, in effect, take its own motion; whether this bill protects the traditional sanction by those \u201Celected of the people\u201D against a judge. Those who are able to be ejected by the votes of the people deciding that a judge has broken the required standards, and perhaps get rid of him or her, should decide without the Judicial Conduct Panel\u2019s recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen we look at clause 33 we see it is entirely opaque. The Attorney-General has a discretion to act on the recommendation of the panel, but not an obligation to do so\u2014it is an absolute discretion. Then there is a further constraint in that the judge must not be removed on the ground of a finding made by the Judicial Conduct Panel unless the panel has reported to the Attorney-General that it justifies consideration. In effect, this bill gives an absolute discretion to the Attorney-General as to whether he or she will act on the conduct panel\u2019s motion, and appears to leave no room for Parliament to decide to act, even if the conduct panel looks like a bunch of cronies, and even if the conduct panel looks as if it has allowed familiarity or undue concern for the sensitivities of the Government to result in a recommendation that there has been conduct that could justify removal but the conduct panel does not think there should be removal. In other words, the conduct panel appears to have been set up to snooker Parliament, to snooker the possibility of Parliament taking this out of the hands of an Attorney-General who is colluding with the judiciary; it makes sure that Parliament could not do that. This bill confirms the power of the Attorney-General and the Government in power over the judiciary, instead of providing a buttress or protections against interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill does trifling things, but it does them in a way that opens it up for them to be extremely significant. As has already been said, this does not deal with the real concern of New Zealanders that we are about to see a Government attempting to set up an entire top court, to give it a quasi-constitutional role\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309025ed08ba7bb904086b4763354fc9d6147000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"