"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b17c39ded764345ad911604bf1ace65\u0022\u003EWednesday, 17 September 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbd7bf5df39e440880fbc7618470442f\u0022\u003EWednesday, 17 September 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228adaab3d3c1449b68e35e3a730c67723\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226430a3950a804399a7308ef4b9d66aa2\u0022\u003EPrivileges of the House and Speaker\u0027s Actions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00227830bf86dc7d4ebaafec9bce209e9093\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227830bf86dc7d4ebaafec9bce209e9093\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I promised the House yesterday that I would respond to points of order raised following my statement that I had initiated discussions with the Commissioner of Police on police access to the parliamentary precincts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EIt has been suggested that there may be some advantage in having the Privileges Committee examine any proposed rules or protocol. While I emphasise that, as Speaker and the statutory occupier of the precincts, I will make the final decision on the procedures, I think that there is merit in this suggestion. I intend, therefore, to present draft procedures to the House when it resumes after the adjournment. The House can then, if it wishes, refer the draft to the Privileges Committee for its consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EI was asked to elaborate on my office\u2019s contact with the police prior to the police\u2019s decision to lay charges against Mr Ardern. The police did speak to my office on the day after the incident occurred, seeking to meet with me to discuss possible action. In accordance with my previous direction, which I had communicated to Mr Ardern when I met him immediately after the incident, the police were informed that the Speaker did not wish to be involved in discussions about police action. That was a matter for them. The police accepted that, and indicated that in those circumstances they would probably seek to interview Mr Ardern and another person who had ridden a scooter on the steps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EI was informed at the time that the police had sought to meet with me, but not of the details of the conversation. However, as I indicated to the House yesterday, I became aware of the police\u2019s announced intention to interview Mr Ardern shortly before delivering the ruling on Thursday, when the staff member involved specifically drew my attention to it. That this aspect of the conversation was not emphasised to me earlier was consistent with my express wish not to be involved with the police\u2019s decision on the matter, and I do not see it as at all significant. It is clear, however, that members, the police, and Parliamentary Service staff need clearer guidance as to police conduct in Parliament Buildings. It is such guidance that I intend to give my attention to as a result of the devising of the procedures that I have already mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EMr Peters made a number of allegations about my involvement in decisions resulting from an incident that occurred in the grounds in May. When he raised the matter I was at first unable to recall it at all, until reminded of the details by Mr Franks, who had rung me about it at the time. I have since met with Mr Franks to refresh my recollection of the incident. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EI have to say that I think that it is most unfortunate that this matter has been brought up at all. It concerned an individual whose close relative was the victim of an appalling crime, and who was acting under intense personal strain as a consequence. The individual, who caused some damage to the lawns, presented himself to the police. The police contacted the Parliamentary Service security staff and asked if they could meet with me to explain the background to the incident. This they subsequently did with me, along with Parliamentary Service management. At that meeting the police indicated that they preferred to take no action in the case. I agreed that this was an appropriate and a humane decision, while emphasising that the matter was entirely at their discretion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EMr Franks, who also knew the history of the matter, rang me before the police called on me to ask that the matter be treated sympathetically. After the meeting with the police, I called him back to tell him that I thought that matters had been resolved satisfactorily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EIn response to Mr Peters, I did not direct that the person not be charged. Indeed, I have no power to do so. I did indicate that, for the reasons given, I agreed with the police\u2019s preference not to prosecute. What the police conveyed to the person concerned I have, of course, no way of knowing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EThere is one further thing I want to say to the House. Last week I acknowledged that I had been in error in speaking to the news media about Mr Ardern, especially when inquiries into his conduct by the police were still under way. I apologised to the member for that, and do so again. But that does not mean that as Speaker I intend to submit myself to allegations and wholesale cross-questioning of my actions. If members wish to express criticism of the Speaker, as is their right, the appropriate way to do so is to put down a notice of motion, not to do so by way of a point of order or in the course of debate. My door is always open to members who wish to express their opinions to me frankly and freely. Indeed, if there is one charge that I do plead guilty to, it is that I have operated an open-door policy. I do not intend to change that. I do intend, however, to uphold the dignity of the Speakership of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00227e62fee00f1c4b9fae5862ead7673a4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e62fee00f1c4b9fae5862ead7673a4c\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for your rulings and your comments. That leaves at least one matter outstanding in respect of Mr Ardern. A notice of motion has been lodged around the issue of the evidence that the police took from Mr Ardern, potentially in breach of the privileges of this House. Mr Ardern is now scheduled to appear in court, I think, on Friday week, and the question of privilege, of course, raises the issue of whether the police obtained that evidence in a proper way. The matter is now left just hanging loose, and we are keen to see it clarified. I note that that may involve some degree of retrospectivity, if you are to institute procedures from a date in the future that clarify or restate what has long been the tradition of the House. I would not want that suggestion of retrospectivity to cut across the need for a determination of the circumstances around Shane Ardern\u2019s case and the role of the police in collecting that evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fce87b17900a4eceae560d7966e06036\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his contribution. As far as that is concerned, I am advised that that is a matter for the courts to decide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d35f8508867c4e2e80648f20c0e8ff45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d35f8508867c4e2e80648f20c0e8ff45\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have had a chance to examine your ruling briefly, and I have to say with the greatest respect that I do not appreciate being told it is unfortunate that I have raised a serious issue with this Parliament. That is the first thing I want to say. Secondly, the proper course is not always to put down a notice of motion, because, frankly, members are seeking information before deciding whether such a decision may be the correct course of action. I say that with the greatest of gravity, because we in this Parliament needed to know the facts. For example\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11baeb588944254a2dd712de9c777dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please be seated. I will not have debate on my ruling entered into in this way. If the member wants to put down a motion he can do so, and that is proper. He is invited to do so. As far as I am concerned I have made a ruling, and at this time I do not want to have that ruling challenged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002258741f3f8a87465aa2a67f236fc78d82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258741f3f8a87465aa2a67f236fc78d82\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. When I asked you yesterday whether you thought it was appropriate, proper, and fitting that you judge the situation, you said: \u201CNo, I will not. The House will judge it, and that is where it should be.\u201D That is precisely my argument\u2014that is, that this House will judge it. One cannot determine at this point in time that a notice of motion is the appropriate course of action. For example, I asked for the police report. I want to know why it does not square with your explanation today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d16f7125ceb0494a93e8e1d931dfe9be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d16f7125ceb0494a93e8e1d931dfe9be\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. I refer him to Speaker\u2019s ruling 14/7, which goes back to 1891, and there have been numerous similar rulings since then. It states: \u201CThe Speaker\u2019s ruling may be challenged only by a direct motion with notice.\u201D That is where that matter ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9ea39f3a0ff4180809996db6c464b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9ea39f3a0ff4180809996db6c464b8e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You might go back centuries to a ruling, but I say to you that that would be a very unfortunate position for you to take, because you now leave me with no option whatsoever but to seek such a motion. I have simply asked for information, to ensure that the matter sits on all fours with what we have been told, and you have said\u2014contrary to what you said yesterday, when you said this matter would be judged by the House\u2014that that is not to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI am not bringing the case of Mr Ardern as an example. I am raising the issue in respect of an incident on 21 May. How many trail bikes could have been vandalising the lawns of Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba71bff48a514b6aac3f24cde3808576\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba71bff48a514b6aac3f24cde3808576\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. Of course he has a perfect right to move that motion, and that is provided for in that Speaker\u2019s ruling. I am bound by the Speakers\u2019 rulings of this House, and when they go back over 112 years, then I think that that indicates that there was good reason for them then, and good reason for them to be continued now. That is where the matter must rest.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022e31caad3a80c44b0b333a438b19f21b7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e31caad3a80c44b0b333a438b19f21b7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is an important issue, and I would like you to take a minute to be a bit clearer about the answer you gave to the Hon Bill English, when he raised the point of order relating to, essentially, the status that may now be placed upon the evidence collected by the police from Mr Ardern when they did visit these premises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022654a5c2c0e3a4492875689f2f14db5bc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes I will do that now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a91d2d499e416aa4fe9f79d4fa8dcf\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: If I can, I will just ask a simple question. Have you said that the matter of privilege in this case is to be, at least in part, determined by the court? It would seem that in normal cases evidence that is illegally gathered is not admissible. In this case, if the evidence was gathered by illegal means, surely that does have a material effect on Mr Ardern\u2019s case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac5129f74f9140988e9cb8b880cff003\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac5129f74f9140988e9cb8b880cff003\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are two issues here. I think the second issue is whether an issue of privilege is involved, and that is the one that should concern the House. If the Leader of the Opposition wishes to raise that as a matter of privilege, then the way to do so is not by way of a point of order. He should have raised it as an issue of privilege with you in the appropriate fashion, and if it is your determination that an issue of privilege is not involved that is the end of the matter. Again, that is not a matter to be raised by way of point of order in the House. That is dealing with a Speaker\u2019s ruling, and again such a ruling may be challenged only by a direct motion with notice. Clearly you have either made a decision that an issue of privilege is not involved, which is the end of the matter in the House, or you have yet to make a decision on that matter, in which case when you have made a decision you will report it to the House and the Privileges Committee will deal with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002265971d5102c147de98ff09598d3817cc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265971d5102c147de98ff09598d3817cc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say to members, and I make this point because a member asked me to clarify it, that I think that is a fair question. The member is assuming that the evidence was illegally gathered\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022373d358f805a488587e438ee55bdb84f\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00221fff7c674a934e9abdc08c3cb5d7bfe4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221fff7c674a934e9abdc08c3cb5d7bfe4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, if he is assuming that, it is not the same as a breach of privilege. Illegality is a matter for the court. The admissibility of evidence in court is a matter for the court, and I have no discretion to rule evidence admissible or inadmissible. I have no discretion to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d94a84f68a59402ba14d464ed6e6f1e6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d94a84f68a59402ba14d464ed6e6f1e6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think I may be able to help Mr Peters. I am not quite sure what his questions are, but I think it is helpful for you to remind the House that under Standing Order 364(2) questions can be put to the Speaker, but they have to be put in writing. If the member has some questions, that is the procedure by which to raise them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0d165e8a4604587a9faa8d006c01b03\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u0022f007dbd2096a48e4b3370be6e591593d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f007dbd2096a48e4b3370be6e591593d\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (NZ National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday the Office of the Clerk returned four questions submitted by me for written answer, with the notation that the questions were out of order because the matter was sub judice. Two of those questions were addressed to you as Speaker, and two to the Minister of Police. The question as to whether matters are sub judice is, under Standing Order 112, a matter for the Speaker. I want to raise two questions, not to criticise a ruling you have made but to seek your further consideration on both counts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EFirstly, I want to raise the question of whether Standing Order 112 should have been applied in the case of those four questions. The Standing Order, as you know, refers to matters awaiting judicial decision. I lodged four questions that related to details of communications between yourself and your office, the Minister of Police and his office, and officers of the New Zealand police force. Those communications, I submit to you, are not matters before the court. The matter before the court relates to some allegations about the member for Taranaki - King Country in relation to disorderly behaviour, not whether the Speaker or the Minister of Police have discharged their obligations to the House in an appropriate manner. So I first ask whether, in fact, that was a matter in respect of which you should properly have considered the exercise of a discretion under Standing Order 112. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003ESecondly, I ask that you give consideration to whether such discretion was exercised appropriately, even if there were grounds to exercise it. The Standing Order makes it clear that the purpose of that discretion is to enable the Speaker to rule out of order a matter where, in his judgment, that course is necessary to avoid\u2014and I quote from the Standing Order\u2014\u201Ca real and substantial danger of prejudice to the trial of the case.\u201D In this case, the purpose of the Standing Order is to ensure that Mr Ardern gets a fair hearing. But that, with respect, is not the effect of your ruling. The effect of your ruling is to shield the Minister of Police and Mr Speaker from questions that, I suggest, members are perfectly entitled to ask of you. That is not the purpose for which I understand the discretion to exist in the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003EAccordingly, I ask you to reconsider, firstly, whether Standing Order 112 should have been applied here, and, secondly, whether the discretion was exercised appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bcf15892a87413a93be3b6dcac87add\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022965ebba2b48b4430a0b0c886ce07134d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022965ebba2b48b4430a0b0c886ce07134d\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Having just said to Mr Peters that he should use the procedure of written questions and then been told that an honourable member has done so, but has had the questions rejected, I feel obliged to rise to make two comments to you. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe first is that Standing Order 112 is not a ban on asking questions. It is a ban only if the Speaker believes that there is a real and substantial danger of prejudice to the trial of a case. My understanding from the media is that Mr Ardern is facing a disorderly conduct offence, which is a minor matter. It will not be heard in front of a jury. It will be heard by a District Court judge, and it stretches credibility to believe that a District Court judge would be influenced by\u2014I do not want to be insulting to the member\u2014a written question put down by a member of Parliament. I find that very hard to believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMy second point\u2014and I completely accept the statements you made to this House\u2014is that if you have not directed the police in any way, it would seem to me that it is extremely difficult to see how an answer you gave could in any way influence or prejudice the case. If the question was put down to the Minister of Police, the Minister of Police in New Zealand is statutorily barred from giving directions to the police in a prosecution. If he has given directions, then our Standing Orders should not be used to protect him from that matter. I am not saying that he has; I am assuming that he has not. In that case, it is very hard to see how those questions\u2014and I know that I am speaking hypothetically, because I have not seen them\u2014could be ruled out under Standing Order 112, especially when members look at Speakers\u2019 Rulings on the matter. For example, I remind you of Speaker\u2019s ruling 25/3 from Speaker Wall, who said that the only reason for that ruling was that the discussion could prejudice the case. I would be incredulous if a member of Parliament could think up a question that would influence a District Court judge.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b20328796384a008aafa9209d624238\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for his comments, and also the member who raised the matter. I appreciate the way he raised it. I shall give some thought to the matter, and I will have a ruling by the end of the afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8b3a1379f1e4ca89335ac8320c7394c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8b3a1379f1e4ca89335ac8320c7394c\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to return to the matter that was raised by the Deputy Prime Minister, who stated that issues around Mr Ardern and whether the police evidence was gathered correctly could well be matters of privilege and should have been raised accordingly. Mr Speaker, you know that a letter has been sent to you, as a matter of privilege, on this issue and I am wondering whether we can expect a ruling from you before the adjournment. We have a problem in that tomorrow is the last sitting day of the House before the adjournment, and Mr Ardern is due to appear in court during the adjournment. You dealt with the matter relating to Mr Duynhoven very swiftly. We do not want this decision to take a long time. We would ask that you act with the same haste with this letter as you obviously did with the matter relating to Mr Duynhoven.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc0847dd61ea492db3cb98775a3bcbea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can give the member an assurance that this matter will be replied to. Of course, I do not mention to anybody that I have received a letter. In fact, I am sure that nobody else knows of this, apart from the person who wrote the letter, whom I will not identify. However, I will have an answer for the member before the House rises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022860008e7296d49fea062c7b099048f1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022860008e7296d49fea062c7b099048f1f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House): \u003C/span\u003EI raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The inference from the last sentence of the member\u2019s point of order was that he was implying that in some way you might be treating Mr Ardern differently from Mr Duynhoven. I understand, from the little I have managed to listen to from the House over the last 2 or 3 weeks, that the main complaint from Opposition members was that you did not deal with Mr Duynhoven\u2019s case quickly enough at the time. Now they seem to be claiming that you dealt with it extremely expeditiously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263d2c68de82248fcb37a8c38d06d3caf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c287d61da94a4ee5b50e6108e23b6202\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c287d61da94a4ee5b50e6108e23b6202\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order under Standing Order 364(2), which states: \u201CQuestions for written answer may be put to the Speaker relating to any matter of administration for which the Speaker is responsible.\u201D The operative words here are \u201Cis responsible\u201D. My complaint, Mr Speaker, is that you are not responsible for the matter that I raised, and that there should be no implication that any exercise of your powers was carried out in an irresponsible way. I want to know where that leaves me, in the sense that I cannot put a question to you on this issue because it is ruled out by that very significant Standing Order. If you have no responsibility then how can you possibly reply to me? I have asked for the police report. I want to see it. With the greatest of respect, it is at variance with what you told the House today and until I see it I will not rest on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cffd837535624fd9b9b620259c1b2249\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cffd837535624fd9b9b620259c1b2249\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E To take the member\u2019s last point first, he states that he wants to see the police report because he claims it is at variance with what you were saying, Mr Speaker. If he has seen the police report then I am not quite clear why he is asking to see it. If he has not seen it then I am not quite clear how he can claim it is at variance with things that you have said. I come back to what you are responsible for, Mr Speaker. Standing Order 33 states: \u201CThe control and administration of the whole of the parliamentary grounds and buildings is vested in the Speaker on behalf of the House, whether Parliament is in session or otherwise.\u201D I understand that that relates also to the steps of the Parliament Buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002207fa375cf7bd4dc6a4bdc1f7e6c9a4c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207fa375cf7bd4dc6a4bdc1f7e6c9a4c8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have not seen the police report, but my witness claims that the phone call was made whilst he was being processed, which is at variance with the statement that you saw the police at a later date. One is an example of something happening coeval with the event, and the other is your claim to the House that you saw the police at a later date. Both statements cannot be true. I am not doubting your word, but I would like to see the police report nevertheless. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247f3503fc371469ab6c3ced28657c3a4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Asking for a police report is not a matter of order. It has nothing to do with my chairing of this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222251297c537b4087a8bf24fc295e3082\u0022\u003ECommittees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4f92ad9a771449f87b81f7ac1fe87ec\u0022\u003EBusiness of Select Committees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002236719fbdc9d4485e8b0cd7ea34fcd31b\u0022\u003EMembership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022db7621d537a44b4a94e46a53b7a24f7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db7621d537a44b4a94e46a53b7a24f7f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for Sue Kedgley to be a member of the Government Administration Committee for the purposes of its consideration of the Building Bill, but without the right to vote on any question before the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229708a4226e234fccbc7e2fd4ad723bfe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227cfdb70a952e4efbbdb5ae5517859424\u0022\u003ERodney District Council (PENLINK Toll Road)Empowering Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fb22d89776994d19a4545ba0c72d556a\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00222ffd54a3212a4ebc97eee2ddf67d1307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ffd54a3212a4ebc97eee2ddf67d1307\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the time by which the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee must finally report the Rodney District Council (PENLINK Toll Road) Empowering Bill to be extended to 13 October 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ffb5de4639f443595ad3dd7bc3f6bde\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b672bf5a0c4949af89b78da6a4944129\u0022\u003EMotions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2e792509f88430592be5e2587c0b3b2\u0022\u003EPrivileges Committee Proceedings\u2014Hon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022db7afff8cf514359be90911329e1d45a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db7afff8cf514359be90911329e1d45a\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to move, as a non-debatable motion, members\u2019 motion No. 3 in my name, \u201CThat this House instruct the Privileges Committee to monitor the proceedings against Hon Dr Nick Smith in respect of alleged contempt of the Family Court so as to ensure that the freedom of speech of members of this House is fully protected \u2026\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b08af9935fa349488f29ae5a2ed71193\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to move that motion without debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0de70089ce249479109a42b9c44f6ef\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cccd10ae97fc4d5db99405d152870444\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, leave is either granted or not granted. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u002218c25228db16404d9766d05ad94fd346\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218c25228db16404d9766d05ad94fd346\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Whip\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I support the motion proposed by Stephen Franks because it is the view of United Future that it is a matter of importance. I seek leave for the matter to be debated by the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b3ac6b9fc204c97a605af6c82d8f538\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for the matter to be debated by the House. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f268d369da594609ad9c0bdd47bed542\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022796fec20448c4bf5aa9623340019f295\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022360c6e5fe41048359b6cf2be6cf9c3b5\u0022\u003ENational Bank\u2014Sale\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0df53f83f0c4d9d99fd38e2cb82c34a\u0022\u003E1. MARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Has he received any reports on his powers in relation to the potential sale of the National Bank?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022cfaa362a8f984659a12701e2d188eae0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cfaa362a8f984659a12701e2d188eae0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I have very, very little by way of effective powers of intervention in this case, and I am amazed that anyone would suggest differently, especially someone with a background in commercial law as Mr Stephen Franks has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229edf22dbdfea4251b07dd586dcd00377\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What tests will the Minister apply to any sale? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf575597cef24e619726bfcd5d7e34af\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Reserve Bank will be required to give written consent and it can impose conditions\u2014for example, local incorporation\u2014to protect the financial system in the event of bank failure. The Commerce Commission will determine whether any purchase is anti-competitive. The Overseas Investment Commission will decide whether the potential purchasers meet the prudential requirements of the Overseas Investment Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279049807d7ce468b90108acc202a104a\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister taken any steps at all to assist the Reserve Bank to protect the interests of the New Zealand banking sector against the adverse effects of Australian banking law, which, of course, gives a preference to Australian depositors vis-\u00E0-vis the depositors of other countries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98acde2509443218e845d75371fa344\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have raised that issue with the Australian Treasurer. The Australian Government has indicated it is not likely to be making any changes in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022035dcd86b1e34a2a8760e4e3f0db9d8e\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Can he confirm that after Dr Rod Carr, former deputy governor of the Reserve Bank, publicly described Australian\u2019s banking laws as \u201Cpredatory regulation\u201D the Reserve Bank asked him to support at Government to Government level our bank\u2019s efforts to protect New Zealand depositors with Australian banks; and until there is more than zero movement from Australia, why should Aussies who want the National Bank not be told \u201Ctransaction declined\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022810dedb84c4146179513777d728a33b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member has not listened to what I said. The Minister of Finance does not make those decisions. Those decisions are made by the Reserve Bank, and when the member asks me in public to tell the Reserve Bank what to do in this regard, I assume we would apply the same criteria to the operation of monetary policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3fce42dfc954c3fb7de7e93861f8cdb\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the response of the Australian Government runs counter to the spirit of closer economic relations, since he was simply exercising, I think, his responsibility to ensure that New Zealand depositors do get equal treatment in the event that an Australian-owned bank purchases the National Bank?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c750eaba80494c8da5ba47053b7c9426\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, my preference would be to see that issue dealt with directly, and indeed by means of a combined Australia - New Zealand approach on those matters. In the absence of that, of course, the Reserve Bank thinks the legislation passed quite quickly through this House recently now has greater substantial powers to deal with the issue by other means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022257348bd372b4765abfa2296d2709f1d\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What powers, if any, does the Minister have under the Overseas Investment Act?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aefb6b5d69854bc087210f23590537ab\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have the right to refuse approval if the purchase involves sensitive land. I am advised that the National Bank owns no such land. I could call in a delegation from the Overseas Investment Commission in relation to prudential criteria. These other purchasers must have business experience, demonstrated financial commitment, and be of good character. Without prejudicing what the Overseas Investment Commission may decide, I think any New Zealand Minister of Finance who declared the ANZ Bank did not have business experience and demonstrated financial commitment, and was not of good character, would be risking some form of reputational response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002292327bcb55824d6892415b8423e1b7be\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014Government Proposals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291e0f010f4d54c5f8d049c851ee07f2b\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Do any of the four fundamental principles for proposed foreshore and seabed legislation, as expressed in the Government proposals for consultation published by her department, include any references to co-management, kaitiakitanga, and guardianship; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00229d8c5dec1408453288105c0c8514528d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d8c5dec1408453288105c0c8514528d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E The Government proposal on the principle of protection outlines the current protection of customary rights, including reference to kaitiakitanga and guardianship, as provided for in the Resource Management Act passed by National in 1991. This is a useful precedent, as are other Acts and the customary-fishing regulations passed under National Governments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3067ecff4564e88b2002f97baa8d2ec\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that in the Government\u2019s popular publication there is no reference to these concepts, and why is it that when she talks on mainstream media she talks about absolute, non-negotiable bottom lines, but when she goes to the marae she talks about compromise and negotiation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d9c82794e634c72a2c483be79acc381\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The first point to make is that one does not get 36 pages of a discussion document into a pamphlet. The second point is I have not, of course, been at the hui.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fdfe3003f6241e79cc63ecd49275646\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister why she has changed her view, as expressed by three different and, one assumes, independent journalists of the press gallery, on 24 June\u2014in the New Zealand Herald in the first instance, in the Dominion Post in the second instance, and in the Nelson Mail, in a New Zealand Press Association report, in the third instance\u2014all of which have the following statements: \u201CBut Prime Minister Helen Clark said ownership of the seabed and foreshore had long been considered to lie with the Crown and legislation would clarify that.\u201D? That is the import of three independent journalists\u2019 view of what she said on 23 June; why is she ducking and diving and changing her mind now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221928d38cf89f44a2a52676b1e696e043\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I have consistently said is that clarifying legislation would be required, and it will be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5fabd6d1d349f49f45a48767f951f1\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Where is the Government\u2019s moral mandate for so-called clarifying legislation to have 15 percent of the population co-managing, and having guardianship of, our beaches; and how does she know that, when she not only has not fronted up\u2014as she has just told us\u2014to any of the hui, but has not been prepared to front up at any public meeting with any New Zealander on this issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222692e8e4c4a4461c8f7910a0197d06cd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Presumably, the same mandate that led a previous Government to put such concepts into various pieces of legislation and regulations. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbacee27b6cb442681c45c621065ef55\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not want to warn people again. I have called Metiria Turei and she alone has the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc1e49da014047678baf9511c94b5381\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Given Michael Cullen\u2019s statement at Omahu Marae that the Government\u2019s bottom line is no further private exclusive title, and that no M\u0101ori at the hui has sought private exclusive title, will the Government now engage with M\u0101ori in a negotiation based on this common ground?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee9d611ca2e44429d48cffecadf7b88\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised by the Deputy Prime Minister that the assertion about what M\u0101ori have not asserted is simply not true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227378037d618f49129f19cead4f3c0f45\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Can I ask the Prime Minister, in the light of her response to my supplementary question yesterday that she agreed with the assertion that all New Zealanders of whatever origin indivisibly and equally owned a share of the foreshore and seabed, whether, at the hui that Ministers have been able to get into without having their security compromised or threatened, or being otherwise abused, there have been concepts of ownership advanced that would be consistent with that position?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e2c3d1dbc84b0382fa05a7bd3390c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I understand there have been some submissions that have indeed supported the Government proposal that these areas should in effect be a commons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022635df3e63e834c80ab055078978c5dbd\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell us whether the Crown will exercise the principle of regulation on its own or in partnership with iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66d4553c323465bac9e8f096239d6f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said, there are rather interesting precedents for co-management. I could, for example, cite the precedent of the m\u0101taitai reserves, which provide, under 1998 fisheries regulations, for hands-on management by kaitiaki of all non-commercial fishing activity in traditional fishing grounds. That was in 1998, under a previous Government\u2014maybe it was all right then and is not now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7b9f7cff28b47128113ef1240c333e2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Prime Minister denying that on 23 June she and Margaret Wilson told a press conference the following, as reported by David McLoughlin of the Dominion Post the next day: \u201CMs Wilson and Prime Minister Helen Clark said the planned law change would clarify that the Crown, and thus the public in general, owned beach foreshores and the seabed.\u201D, or as reported by none other than Audrey Young on the same day: \u201CBut Prime Minister Helen Clark said ownership of the seabed and foreshore had long been considered to lie with the Crown and legislation would clarify that.\u201D? Why is she now trying to do a doublespeak on that and say she did not say it in the first place\u2014that ownership belonged to the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ccd6e74f663425ba9543d7de32fdb0e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am very aware of what I said on 23 June at a press conference, which was that clarifying legislation would be required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb458970e3d4a1b81c98d2a6bf2bd80\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Prime Minister is willing to confirm the second part of the statement, which is that clarifying legislation would be introduced, why can she not confirm the first part of the statement, that ownership had long been considered to lie with the Crown\u2014or is she being selective?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d7cfd37534b48419b45b14d112245e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That statement was made some days earlier, and it is not correct to link the two as being made on one day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bccd4caccfe46d88b38a0bdb909f720\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can I take it from the Prime Minister that every journalist there\u2014all of whom repeated the words that the foreshore and seabed issue would be clarified to the extent that ownership would lie with the Crown\u2014got it wrong, that they are all telling a tissue of lies, and that she alone is telling the truth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d12584df94742d89b699d181e6aae43\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: What I can say is that on 23 June I was very clear that clarifying legislation would be required. I did not say what it would be. I look forward to that member clarifying his party\u2019s position that there should be Crown ownership, so that he does not con M\u0101ori again like he did in 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265d3c25843684e47a66b0bd8be8c94f2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Apparently, we have a most interesting circumstance here. The Prime Minister has no idea of what her policy is or of what she said, but she has certainty about ours. Well, I can understand that: ours makes sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295275d435911467dbe75b987a6f765db\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9edc40e19c74b8198d9b55d066b8c0d\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Is the House to understand that the moral authority for this Government\u2019s legislation on the beaches is that in 1998 the National Government introduced legislation into the House; if so, why is the Prime Minister not prepared to front up at hui and public meetings and tell us all that the reason the Labour Government is passing something is that National did it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221296467e83e7473c947a5c68f0a059bd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That would never be a good reason. The basis for concepts like this being put into law and regulations, under both the present and previous Governments, is that Governments in this day and age endeavour to see how the treaty can be made relevant. That is why these concepts are adopted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130efdc4aa224c2e9f75f885420941d4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that on 23 June the view of herself and her Government was that legislation clarifying that foreshore and seabed ownership would lie with the Crown\u2014that that was a statement she made\u2014but then she got hit with a revolt from the seven dwarfs, and she changed her mind in the next few months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022169f7fdbf9bf40c19b03433910f83ea3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not having that comment made. If that is a reference to any member of Parliament, the member will withdraw and apologise for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270d514af03854c7b9b8d5dd52e93f04e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How could you assume that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3448a9a2c35486b89c8bf308deaecc4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want the member\u2019s assurance that he was not referring to a member of Parliament. Will he give that assurance now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022883a80c1c17e4a19bdccf39d317221b5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I will tell you what I will do. I will repeat the words \u201Cseven dwarfs\u201D for as long as I like, but until I give a name to them, you will not make an imputation about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc217f53cb514fcaaf25263e690819b9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to know whether that is a reference to any member of Parliament. [Interruption] The member will give me that answer or he will be leaving the Chamber. I want to know whether that was a reference to any member of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220552504a23d14d33ba8723c314f2621a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You are not going to tell me what I am thinking\u2014all right? I will use that phrase, and so will, I expect, any self-respecting member of Parliament\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022450f5eb61112432a91d2d4d3b28eb7c3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am going to have an answer. The member will be seated or he will be leaving. I want an assurance that that was not a reference to any member of Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c04191fd96904b568fceef358c5b8854\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: You are not going to get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c6ce265afc7451988b2cfeb74d2965f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member leaves the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289b01a7efbe847d08b212f74b640c157\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Here we go again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce3fa1dadaab4c778477930e40c45adb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member leaves the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba7b8824ed404cbcbb056032e7450e8c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Prime Minister\u2019s answer before, that the two parts of the published statement were made on different days, can she confirm to the House whether she ever said\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022168831f6dc2f42379488fc018d399b57\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, Mr English. You are perfectly entitled to have your question asked in silence, and I now ask you to start again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e86910c731804d5c83b3c8c0f5321da1\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: It is not another one of their walk-ins, is it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be646f84675a4b6eb33bdf8ea8a4cc41\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know. The member will just ask the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78065b1830448b09fae28bc03acd63c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm whether she ever made her reported comments that ownership of the seabed and foreshore had long been assumed to lie with the Crown?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222771509adceb4248ad913193f20c2f71\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: On the Friday before that press conference I did indeed make that statement, and I believe I was justified in making it, given one\u2019s recollection that they were deemed to be vested in the Crown. That was another matter from what was said on 23 June at the press conference, which was when I said that clarifying legislation would be required, and I was non-specific about what.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232b8f451679244a6a89ce33648bb465a\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I draw your attention to the fact that the Rt Hon Winston Peters is set down to ask question No. 4, and I ask that he be allowed to return to the House to ask that question and a number of supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c46f908751754b7db42f2b61d5526c90\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the member has been asked to leave. It is bad luck, on this occasion. He cannot do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e9674d3da8e437086ff50d3f0850f49\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, I draw your attention to the fact that it was not too long ago that another member\u2014I think it was the Hon Dr Nick Smith\u2014was asked to leave by your good self, and you saw fit to allow the member back in to ask his questions then leave again afterwards. I ask you to show the same consideration to the Rt Hon Winston Peters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb7400ad6a04c35aa3f84911d325d63\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: My recollection is that the incident with Dr Smith did not involve a direct challenge to the authority of the Chair, as Mr Peters\u2019 behaviour did, and I am sure that was a factor you have taken into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225354a0e548884c5cb3b2c7caf421b316\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly the point I would make. In fact, I wanted to be generous on that occasion, because Dr Smith did not challenge the Chair. Mr Peters did, and he stays out for this question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dccd8d895fa44d0a3837b4073f99ade\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you tell me where in the Standing Orders is categorised the degree to which a member has to leave for this type of punishment or that type of punishment? Consistency should be shown to all members of Parliament asked to leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb9e0b98aba04778bff57ae15edb1111\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Any disorderly behaviour, as I see it, and when the member refused to accede to my request, that was disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e61d9fe7bb446892d3f9c5cea69573\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is probably valuable for the House to get a better steer on exactly what your rulings are surrounding Mr Peters\u2019 removal from the House. It seems to me that the issue that Mr Peters was advancing was a reasonable one. The Speaker should not assume to know the thoughts of a member by putting some imputation upon the words that member has spoken. I am now a little unclear as to what the ruling that will, obviously, now appear in Speakers\u2019 Rulings will say on this matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd4e9d0f157648ea88e6c345fb616453\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Quite simply, it is this. I asked whether the member was referring to a member of the House. I am perfectly entitled to do that. It has been done, on occasion, by every Speaker who has ever sat in this Chair, because comments can be ironic or epithetical. If I had had an assurance that it was not a reference to a member of the House, then that would have been the end of the matter. The member refused to give that assurance. He disobeyed an instruction, and he was asked to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a7204db748549919a5b31aab85158ae\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want to have it clear that a member has to be very careful how he or she refers to another member, that one cannot use the word \u201Cdwarf\u201D to refer to another member, and that, somehow, the word \u201Cdwarf\u201D is now out of order, and you are ruling on our freedom of speech in that regard. I believe that the use of the word \u201Cdwarf\u201D is quite appropriate in a parliamentary sense. Some of us might be giants, and some of us might be dwarfs. It all varies. Some of us might be bald, and some of us might not be. Are you now ruling that the word \u201Cdwarf\u201D is not acceptable in the New Zealand Parliament to describe another member?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4a44156a7d64205867c96659336f138\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I ruled that out because the member\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b7e4f799d04467ac94b92161f5cf50\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] If that member continues to interject he should be removed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87591fe52554af49263e457719c014c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He will be, if I find out who it was.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243c12e13bd024863b9f7066208f69abd\u0022\u003EHon Members\u003C/span\u003E: It was David Cunliffe!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1c2d7157f0c4f3dba4579b94ab48984\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to ask the member whether he was interjecting when the point of order was being discussed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2fee42faf564ae2910de4ab4c8d2215\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I was, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a21c7d9bdcdc4cf18b7c19f83f367c89\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right, leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b47dbf1a127d4c7ca583878c1691d249\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that, under Standing Order 365(1)(b), questions should not contain arguments, inferences, imputations, epithets, ironical expressions, and the like, so the question was actually out of order under that matter. I think it might assist Mr Peters to know that all he needed to do was actually withdraw that statement. You have not actually ruled that the colourful expression \u201Cthe seven dwarfs\u201D is unparliamentary. That is another matter for general debate. All you have said is that it is not appropriate in a question\u2014and it most certainly is not. We all know that it actually is a reference to members, because in previous statements that we have heard he has said so. I suggest that if Mr Peters and his whips want to talk to you, what they ought to do is to arrange for Mr Peters to come back and withdraw and apologise for those remarks\u2014if they want him to participate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad2e0df8e584858abc845453a6a6fbf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good thought, but I gave the member a number of chances to do that. I think he defied the Chair, and that is the reason he was asked to leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a8a51bba5ce495b92d3a93052b0cebe\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, you have not ruled on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022680c4a88c9da40e59aaeea02346439d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022996220c60e7d43c19221c228aefa2d35\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is \u201Cdwarf\u201D now out of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b29f3ec359f243f3b906d879019ddb3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If it refers in an ironic or an epithetical way to any member of this House, of course it is. There are a large number of words that are out of order as far as describing members is concerned. If the member reads the Standing Orders, he will see that members are to be described as members, as honourable members, or by their rank or office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220026b79d28e94e22857e129185dd55da\u0022\u003ERoad Transport\u2014Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce942bcf7080401f842e61fb7d074f40\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with the Minister of Transport\u2019s statement to the Road Transport Forum yesterday that \u201CThe car \u2026 is behind unprecedented demand for funding, which has not kept pace with vehicle use.\u201D; if so, does he have any plans for addressing this transport funding shortfall in next year\u2019s budget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bfd289b99ab2488ea1c6bbadac14a2f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bfd289b99ab2488ea1c6bbadac14a2f8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance): \u003C/span\u003EYes, as so often, I agree with my colleague the Minister of Transport. A range of work is proceeding on how to fund future roading demands, particularly in the Auckland region.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb23196dc00f4755a82c89472aa8658d\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Noting widespread public concern that the diversion of petrol excise tax revenue into the consolidated account is a key contributor to the transport funding shortfall, has the Government completed its economic analysis into how this diversion can be justified, as mentioned in reply to an oral question earlier this year; and when will the results of this analysis be released to the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e945d2f372ce49a7bfefa57f5f267dbb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member may recall that before the last election, the Automobile Association and other organisations released documentation that showed that if the Government was to recover the full cost of roading from excise duty, then excise duty would have to be increased substantially. The so-called diversion into the Crown account, I am afraid, is a well-worn myth, but a myth none the less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb4b7f598bb04b0b92d43371a01ab6de\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister support the use of network tolling and congestion pricing as methods to gain extra capital for new roading projects; if not why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6cd1e7e6d441c0ab102b9f22f7fdde\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Those issues are under consideration at the moment. It would be premature of me at this instance to give an indication of the likely outcome of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1091f25cd1b472ca6b05f58d56d09b5\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the answer to the last question from Larry Baldock, is the Minister telling this House that Government policy is framed around what the Automobile Association suggests, or thinks, or submits, or do they do their independent assessments of various situations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a062020893b473a96bb53aece8a656a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, although the Government obviously takes considerable notice of what the Automobile Association says. The Automobile Association\u2019s claims were based on Government documents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a362f5b5ba04997a3b274229d95bcd1\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the lack of investment in roading is a major constraint to economic development in this country; if so, why will he not rapidly expedite legislation that would allow Auckland to urgently complete its motorways, and stop squandering public money on railways and rail corridors?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059e09884b4f4cbfa613a9968adb60c4\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Part of the answer to roading demand is also total demand management and reasonable alternatives to roading, including rail. Were we to pass legislation right now, if what I assume the member is referring to is public-private partnerships, firstly, it is far from clear how many of the Auckland roads would qualify in a commercial sense, especially as the costs continue to escalate\u2014[Interruption] None? Well, the member says so; I shall take her word on it. Secondly, of course, none of those roads are ready for construction immediately, as far as I understand it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c54990979d1441d829a760611dc7ae7\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall the British attempt to match traffic growth and funding, dollar for kilometre, known as \u201CMaggie Thatcher\u2019s Great Car Economy\u201D, which failed spectacularly to deliver anything other than traffic jams, and does he agree that current balanced transport policy that looks at infrastructure needs, alternatives to roading, and demand management is a far more sensible approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c5dce6592a24489f9943b69d86e9a1c9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do, although I do confess that I do not anticipate seeing all Aucklanders cycling or walking to work within the foreseeable future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e99f28d9d774cc2b494f636bd9f3e15\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm, in relation to a question asked earlier this year, that the Government was undertaking some economic analysis as to the justification for money coming from the petrol excise tax and into the consolidated account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d9430a4de944d008fc3b06032fa7773\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is the Crown account. We have not had a consolidated account for many years, although people continue to use that term. Yes, work has been done, and all the conclusions from the work that I am aware of are that there is no case to be made that substantial diversion is in fact occurring. The Government does not recover the full economic costs of the roading system\u2014a point, of course, that Tranz Rail has made in a different context.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022250e4a1252ae438a90f7c9bd1c47bdbf\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister let us know when that information and analysis may be made available to the public so they can also have the benefit of the work that has been done?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd694629381e4278af70d3e3718f56c8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I will consult my colleague the Minister of Transport and come back to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a0edd7e7554ffb8a83b7a260fcc1a2\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask the Minister to say that he will come back not only to the member. As other members are interested in this issue, I ask the Minister to come back to everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285d2d2c2e01146a5b6963763e41578ff\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not really a point of order, but the Minister might like to comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226529971512094bf6a6f6bdb7b44aba2d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I would be happy to try to make the information available to all members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002212763777467b4dbd9b56a233622da4d8\u0022\u003ERefugees\u2014Ministerial Confidence\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002216e8cdb706da452abc155d81857e6b92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E4. DAIL JONES (NZ First), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002216e8cdb706da452abc155d81857e6b92\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E, to the Prime Minister: With regard to the refugee situation, does she have confidence in the Minister of Immigration?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a82f89ad882842f39a7d6de6811aa16e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a82f89ad882842f39a7d6de6811aa16e\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9f1d6fc52524affbca8475e23ffbc50\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: In what way does she believe the Minister of Immigration has assisted, for example, the five women, two of whom are confirmed as having HIV\u2014the other three are not confirmed\u2014through the deliberate actions of Shingirayi Nyarirangwe, the refugee from Zimbabwe facing multiple counts of rape, male assaults, and infecting another person with HIV, and why has this individual not had deportation actions commenced against him?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556c1f250e7f4b028d6f3d7d4c3988fd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: This matter is presently before the courts. These are very serious charges, and if the person concerned is found guilty the Minister would normally seek his removal from New Zealand, such is the seriousness of the charges.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228415e962-886d-47b9-9356-3fdce746891f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266139d34e7e64b1c9b5e16922fa9a8be\u0022\u003EHon Jim Anderton\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister received any reports of damage being done to New Zealand\u2019s reputation in other countries of importance to New Zealand\u2019s economic future by questions such as this, targeting immigrants, in the Parliament of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022197c7d4c2bf7411bb2ab2b356c353372\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I was very concerned to see a report today about a growing backlash against our country from reports that appear in Asian media about anti-Asian sentiment here. We are advised in this report in the New Zealand Herald that it specifically refers to coverage of Mr Peters\u2019 attacks on immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1b08f3cd25845df81a4af47bc2abc6f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The points the Prime Minister made may well be valid and might well be a valid answer to some other question, but the question being asked today was about a refugee from Zimbabwe. Unless my geography has gone hopelessly astray I cannot imagine Asians being in any way sympathetic to this bloke being here. In fact, they must wonder why we have not thrown him out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c11101cb0dc461e8d85bd9e6e0ee8f9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a long way away from the principal question, and I agree with the member to that extent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227620f165607646368cd6cf7fb43d2595\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister now telling the House that she does not support condemnation of people such as Shingirayi Nyarirangwe who has inflicted HIV on at least two other people, and that she is concerned what the Chinese people might say about reports that New Zealanders want to deport people from Zimbabwe who are infecting New Zealand women?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226410be47e3f7495bb20f1e5de1bf5ec9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I said in response to the member\u2019s earlier supplementary question, these are very serious charges, and if the man is convicted, then the Minister would, in the normal course of events, seek to deport. I then referred, in a further supplementary answer, to the constant cheap politics in this House by an anti-immigration party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214be9f7d58cf41eda2df71e6513b941a\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister support New Zealand First\u2019s condemnation of African immigrants who are inflicting AIDS and HIV on New Zealand women\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229174b78662a04a5a84cac205c32d388b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike New Zealand First, I unreservedly condemn any person who does that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95c61312c4f458bbe4c2d312892094e\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It took two questions to get that answer from the Prime Minister. You are rationing the supplementary questions in this House, and I want to voice my concern that we are absolutely wasting questions when it takes two questions to get from the Prime Minister an answer where she actually condemns something and agrees with New Zealand First.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219443c1db6574af482b02d6c5cffd745\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As far as the question was concerned, there was a question that was wide of the mark, but that was asked by another member. I will have a look at that particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7ac028740d4441eafd190e1aa7ad03a\u0022\u003EEthnic Communities\u2014Conservation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d60f5b2c03534c7fbd5ad260ecfdf439\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What progress, if any, has been made in engaging ethnic communities in conservation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002205d98bf605b343e9a56689645eb1bbda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205d98bf605b343e9a56689645eb1bbda\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent progress! For example, my department is working closely with the Chinese Conservation Education Trust. It now has over 600 members and is making a huge practical contribution to conservation. In addition, the Department of Conservation is in partnership with the Pacific Island community\u2019s Tapa Trust, which targets conservation work in New Zealand and in the Pacific Islands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247feeb408f774b97a1b132cd57abaccf\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What have been some of the outcomes of this engagement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fc4a4b04cfc4ad6b74c8be00ab8d6a5\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: A much greater awareness among Asian and Pacific communities about the reasons for restrictions on trade in endangered species and the importance of border biosecurity, financial contributions towards pest control, and hands-on involvement in nature restoration projects, such as that on Motutapu Island.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d90068e5542a4ad9b500af87be2f58fa\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: What efforts have been undertaken to protect the rare and endangered nocturnal green parrot?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214b5623f8f2a439e9790e85c0e6b2ada\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether the Green Parrott is under threat from new ethnic minorities, although I could mention that there is at least one member of this House who seems to spend a great deal of time there in the early hours of the morning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2926a407c8b41a09190144847671e68\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is being facetious. [Interruption] There are a number of people who sometimes enjoy that place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c88088a1b6549939a51ac4817384fcc\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given your concern for we people of short stature and the derogatory epithets that may be cast upon us, I ask whether you are going to seek the same assurance that aspersions will not be cast upon people whose faces appear in photographs down at the Green Parrott, such as your good self, former Prime Minister the Rt Hon Mike Moore, and the Hon Annette King, and whether those disparaging comments were not in some way intended. I ask whether you will seek the same assurance from this member that he is not casting dispersions\u2014aspersions, or even dispersions\u2014dispersing aspersions on honourable members, and if he refuses to respond, whether you will chuck him out of the House just like you did previously with Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfb213148c6a49e0a2a856176f1a72c8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have dealt with that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022245a2b7c7c754b8aac8a922e88c660c0\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With all due respect, I do not think that issue has been dealt with. Notwithstanding the difficulties that Mr Mark might have got into over the enunciation of his point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0f81e87cfb14ef892a7f8dd71b1fccd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not worry about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ecc452878c47fbbcb0a8a6ddce0795\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Good. Well, the real point is whether this Minister set out to cast aspersions on other members of this House. I do not think it is unreasonable that he be asked whether that was his intention, and if it was he should be treated the same as Mr Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e47b5c08c5114e45a3bc2e6e1bc4c90d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did rule his reply out of order, but I now suggest that he withdraw and apologise to the number of members concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262191b2fe0aa44669d74062cea786cc3\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4dd3770adec4b4c9b24fa311748e3ab\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Sweetcorn\u2014Document Disclosure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80c80c574ee438ca577dc44238bb60f\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (NZ National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statements: \u201CI believe in total disclosure on this.\u201D, \u201CI\u2019m not putting any restrictions on anyone talking about it.\u201D and \u201CI am very happy for officials to speak completely openly because there\u2019s nothing to hide.\u201D, in respect to \u201Ccorngate\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002213286597ecde4f8c9c12f2868321c472\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002213286597ecde4f8c9c12f2868321c472\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E As I advised the member last week, those statements were made on 11 July, the day after the Nicky Hager book appeared, when I said that officials should come forward to brief the media on what had happened, and they did, that very day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267ec9fb0e1f043b7a142177ade035ed0\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How does she reconcile her statement to the House that she could not explain why key documents to her were kept secret, and that the select committee should recall Dr Prebble, the head of her department, to answer those questions, with her Labour members on the committee voting against my very motion in that regard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226146f51d76814188ac5fa2a2b010f95d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That is entirely a matter for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022037e973cfb92493ea3242d54d315466c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Prime Minister\u2019s commitment to total disclosure, and that key scientists, notably Dr Geoff Ricketts, from the Victoria University biological sciences department, and Professor Charles Hurburgh, of Iowa State University and their grain quality initiative, have reviewed the test results of the corn concerned and expressed a view that they very probably showed contamination, why is it that Labour members have voted against those scientists being able to give evidence to the select committee, noting that that is against the Prime Minister\u2019s previous commitment to total disclosure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283d86d7c766f412e858b374677859342\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister is not responsible for the actions of a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0b1ea908384072bf98c9d276bc25b2\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not suggesting the Prime Minister is responsible for Labour members of the select committee. She is responsible for her statements on behalf of her Government, and my question was how those actions were consistent with her statements of open disclosure and previous commitments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb79a9d6420d411db68ceadd98bfc16e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The second part of the question is in order, but not the first part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295125ec0529c420d9ec7430e14658ec2\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As I advised, those statements were made on 11 July, and the officials briefed the media that very same day. What the committee does is entirely a matter for the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022804fc845fb1b48879196b05809264e00\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that the Prime Minister has castigated the select committee as \u201Ca circus\u201D, will she and her Government support members\u2019 notice of motion No. 1 in my name on today\u2019s Order Paper that requires that all sessions of the committee in respect of the \u201Ccorngate\u201D inquiry be held in open public session so the public and media can judge for themselves who is making an honest endeavour to find the truth with regard to the \u201Ccorngate\u201D affair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022432b62af6a774db8a7cc451d8fe31a79\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I draw the House\u2019s attention to Standing Order 237, \u201CConfidentiality of proceedings and reports\u201D, which states: \u201C(1) The proceedings of a select committee or a subcommittee other than during the hearing of evidence are not open to the public and remain strictly confidential to the committee until it reports to the House.\u201D My office has been advised by the Clerk\u2019s Office that there is absolutely no precedent for what the member is asking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022449717a8c95f401891d1f4c3e87d63ee\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is an unacceptable answer from the Prime Minister. She has been in this House since 1981 and would know that if there were a notice of motion on the Order Paper to be considered by this House and voted in favour of by this House, that becomes the precedent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a5037e683f842b3b8137137c3d7a076\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: We have a very interesting situation here. We have a Prime Minister who has publicly said that we are in favour of a select committee, that she wants it all to be open, and now stands up in the House with a straight face and says that this is a matter for the committee. Every member of Parliament knows, including the member interjecting, that at the Labour Party caucus an argument that it is up to the committee would get nowhere at all. Of course that committee is acting under an instruction from the Prime Minister, and she ought to front up and answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0f0d76b976c4ac99083fe63d338d12c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister did directly address the question. Whether the answer satisfies members is another matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e84745a4f9304cb9afb52cf010fcc58b\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is another interesting aspect of the statement that has just been made. The notice of motion is on the Order Paper, and therefore we take it to be a notice of motion that is in order. At the same time the Prime Minister is quoting advice from the Clerk\u2019s Office as if the notice of motion is out of order. That leaves us confused. Either it is in order or it is out of order. Whether it is a precedent would be a matter for debate, and we debated that in the case of Harry Duynhoven, where there was no precedent for retrospectively qualifying him for Parliament. The question I want clarity on from you is whether that notice of motion is in order. If it is in order, it is open to this House to seek leave to debate the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f596d414c2e84a298ebb2433c9438089\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is perfectly correct in both things he said. It is in order, and it is in order for anybody to seek leave to have it debated, otherwise it would not be on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205ece70b186041e78192fa93bf0e51e6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to have missed the previous call, because I want to raise a point of order about what Mr Prebble said at the end of his statement that the Prime Minister had instructed the Labour members of the committee to do certain things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E I suggest that the member is raising an issue of privilege. To instruct members of a committee on how they are going to behave, in that sense, is in itself a breach of privilege, because members must be free to act. Therefore, if the member wants to raise that matter, he should raise it by way of a letter to you, not by way of speaking in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0a03683aef24a61bd63ecb2018989c2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: That is a novel and interesting argument. If the Minister of Finance went to a select committee he would discover that prior to voting, members would say that they are going back to their caucus for consultation. They would then come back and say that this is the Government line. That is going on in every committee. If the member wants to put me up in front of the Privileges Committee for saying what we all know, then make my day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4cf66dec11144e28de51105b2d116af\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: This is an important point. I do note that I am already on two select committees, plus the Business Committee. But apart from that, there is a question of consultation in seeking the views of one\u2019s colleagues, and one\u2019s colleagues vote on those views. Even members of the ACT party\u2014which apparently is supposed to be a bastion of liberalism and individualism\u2014seem to vote on these matters. It is quite a different matter to say that members are being instructed by the Prime Minister on how they are to vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ce8b95d5f3649bdbcb4a1ddebe2d6ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Rules about instruction relate to instruction from outside the House. However, that point has been made during the course of the point of order. The last part of the member\u2019s point of order was not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a504cfbc514035b2bd32ebda3e9cc9\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have considerable sympathy for Dr Smith. As a member of that select committee, I point out that the Government used its majority to block key witnesses coming to that select committee hearing. We then learn that it is only through an instruction in the House that the committee can be made open to the public\u2014an objective that the Prime Minister publicly claimed she wants, but in private the Government blocks it. Dr Smith has a notice of motion on the Order Paper and, again, the Government has used its majority to block that action. It places the Opposition in a very difficult position, when all we are trying to get is an inquiry that is open and transparent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f5aacc210b14da9a6a29a3b17d452d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. Any member can seek leave to debate that motion, and can. [Interruption] Just one moment. Leave has not yet been sought, but if it is sought and denied that is the end of the matter. But that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d0a5b43d1d14adeac89c27b34cc9447\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Given her public, repeated statements of favouring complete openness and disclosure on this issue, what reasons would the Government have for not supporting my notice of motion that all of the select committee\u2019s deliberations on the inquiry into \u201Ccorngate\u201D be held in open session?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7f950e1baa41e9a126f8f7fa0f85f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: In response to the previous question on this issue, I cited the Standing Orders. Of course, it is always open to the member to go to the Standing Orders Committee. Apart from that, I do not wish to intervene in the affairs of the committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227755857b9e6c4ee1bb2eea2a54039138\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: On reflection, does the Prime Minister believe that her public comments criticising the select committee\u2019s inquiry, chaired by Green leader Jeanette Fitzsimons, calling it a \u201Ccircus\u201D and a \u201Cfarce\u201D, are compatible with her stated public intention of having an open and transparent inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a2bb0c6194943e08b48e1a8a54ef4af\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is a circus and a farce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0b253af9134d85894feb01755eb40a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table the minutes of the select committee so that the public might judge who is responsible\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224545b962eb204d5ca7b0b4e4d06b0a8f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the minutes. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221af302d6207f4f87b42f2d003521ce04\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave for notice of motion No. 1 on the Order Paper in my name to be put to the vote without debate, immediately following question time today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb19dabe0894d2db4d9a73e09198e16\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to take that course of action. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e20d302099364f2396722971c1951d16\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We have had an intriguing answer from the Prime Minister and I wonder whether she wants to review it. She told us that the committee is independent and that she has nothing to do with it. Indeed, she has given the impression that she does not know what is going on with the committee, yet she is prepared to tell the whole House that it is a circus and a farce. Is she the circus master, or is she not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241bbffbaef604dc1bcadb756e6509763\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e1e14686c836498bb07a161c9c4db33f\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Foods\u2014Labelling\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231e71c892b47441faa925fc20a19149b\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Food Safety: What progress has she made in implementing the recommendation 8.3 of the Royal Commission on Genetic Modification \u201Cthat, as a matter of priority, the Food Administration Authority disseminate information on the labelling regime for genetically modified foods and consumer rights in relation to foods made available for consumption at restaurants and takeaway bars.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002290f20f98a25e4bc3a21b0fe42266210d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290f20f98a25e4bc3a21b0fe42266210d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister for Food Safety):\u003C/span\u003E An exemption under standard 1.5.2 of the Food Standards Code exists for restaurants and takeaway outlets, because, obviously, it is unworkable to label composite meals. However, the New Zealand Food Safety Authority has undertaken a public and trade information programme that describes the labelling system and consumer rights. Restaurants and takeaway outlets are also required to comply with New Zealand law in relation to the use of GM food\u2014that is, they can use only foods that have been investigated, assessed, and approved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bfe48a5be874ee9b3b1d2ddbfe186e6\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Can she confirm that despite the priority given by the royal commission to that recommendation, the Food Safety Authority has done absolutely nothing to require takeaway outlet owners to disclose the GE content of their foods or to protect consumer rights to avoid eating GE takeaway foods, if they so wish?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d55796cfbb44a87bc56b1b3af039b51\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: No, I will not confirm that, because the New Zealand Food Safety Authority has provided information for the public in the form of pamphlets, postcards, and a large poster that tells the public of New Zealand that the labelling requirement applies to all packaged foods but not to foods prepared in restaurants and cafes. It is the same as most other labelling requirements. If people are concerned, they can ask whether the food contains any GM ingredients before they choose to buy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232063b154e4e4f12a298bf62d44e6f53\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: What was the royal commission\u2019s view of the approach taken in the GM labelling standard?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e8ce2a7288f49f2917c9e17cd1b2fa9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: In paragraph 197 on page 233 of the report, the commission noted that it supported the labelling system provided under the standard, and when discussing point of sale issues, it noted in paragraph 202 on page 234: \u201CWe have confidence in the ANZFA safety assessment process.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b28388638594ddbb27fb3ed1d96fcea\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the conclusion drawn by the royal commission\u2014that there is no evidence, either empirical or theoretical, that demonstrates that GE food is dangerous to human health\u2014is still valid today, more than 2 years later?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0a449d8a44945c189292d231f808797\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f234eedcc14c3abb5d39a2c6b92313\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: What is the logic behind the fact that when food containing some GE ingredients is bought in a supermarket it needs to be declared on a label, but when identical food is bought in a takeaway store it does not have to be declared; and how does this protect the right of New Zealand consumers to know what is in the food they eat?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295243964e70343be87ca7bde1262fd4b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It was considered unworkable to go to a restaurant and have labelling on part of the food, on sauces used on food, or on any processed parts of food. It would not work. It would be a nonsense, and, as it is not required for safety reasons, it has not been implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdb9f8517e934fce93e8418f647a2090\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that in places like the UK, labelling is required in takeaway stores, if not restaurants, for GE ingredients; and, further to the Food Safety Authority\u2019s comments this morning that our labelling laws are framed to inform people of the GE content of the foods they eat, why are consumers given absolutely no information about whether food they buy in takeaway bars\u2014such as these potato chips I have before me\u2014has been cooked in genetically engineered oil and whether it contains GE ingredients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202bf5513d3ca45abb01055de6f64bee5\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I answered the last part of that question. In relation to the first part, what people do in the UK is their business. However, I have not heard the member protesting the fact that the European Union has decided to exempt wines and cheese that have GMOs in them. Obviously, each country will make its own decision as to what will be part of its labelling regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227de003695fdc4388ba16f29a9cb5c303\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table these takeaway chips so that the Minister for Food Safety can let me know whether they contain genetically engineered ingredients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9783e13aaa4a999f0cd7f2be1eeca1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before members get over-eager, is there any objection to that course? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfd8f8319fcc4cc4ad139ef2f942c392\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014M\u0101ori Land Court\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208db10b98a8740d09da8750447ffa979\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Justice: Were there any M\u0101ori Land Court decisions about seabed and foreshore away from the Marlborough Sounds awaiting the outcome of the Marlborough Sounds appeal; if so, will the Crown now stop the claimants getting titles to such areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c178836fc8e04ae9b674e50e09f288f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c178836fc8e04ae9b674e50e09f288f2\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E There are no M\u0101ori Land Court decisions awaiting the outcome of the Marlborough Sounds appeal. There are applications about the seabed and foreshore in addition to the Marlborough Sounds application that are awaiting a hearing. With regard to the last question, the Crown will not prevent any applications from being filed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225db76add5e4f45c7b2a56e5e865c0d5a\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Associate Minister confirm that a large part of the bed of Ohiwa Harbour in the Bay of Plenty was made into M\u0101ori freehold land by order of the M\u0101ori Land Court on 21 September 1999; and although that order was partly reversed 7 months later, will the Crown now try to stop the M\u0101ori Land Court from going ahead, when it is asked to do so, to turn into freehold land a huge area of Ohiwa Harbour and its foreshore\u2014as the court plainly intended in September 1999?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fcefc3f4424d2281b5591d99a6fc4d\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I wish the member had been more specific in his original question so that I could have been better briefed on the matter. I say to the member that I have no specific advice on the matter and I would be very reluctant to give an answer without a considerable amount of research, which I will undertake to do and to give the member an answer later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022783333ff035f425cac9d489a29395c40\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s policy that the M\u0101ori Land Court, when deciding applications about seabed and foreshore currently before it, will be able to grant only interests and rights that fall short of a fee simple title and do ensure continued public access?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c743424a3fcd451ba1a3bb6acba84141\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As set out in the Government\u2019s proposal for consultation, the Government intends that all applications about the foreshore and seabed, regardless of when they are made, will be subject to the regime the Government is putting in place for the M\u0101ori Land Court. The cornerstone of that regime is that there will be no fee simple title, and continuation of public access will be guaranteed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b12e78fbb0de4003a87f6845c30ddc44\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government planning for the M\u0101ori Land Court to have the role of deciding on claims in the future, including to reject unjustified claims, when that court has already made its view plain at Ohiwa; when the lawyers for the Ohiwa claimants who resisted the correction of the first order were Joe Williams and Layne Harvey, who are now both judges of the court; when all judges of that court are also members of the Waitangi Tribunal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228630c81813b7464d8e0c9f6706151fb9\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is very long. I ask the member to please come to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278833a254119422da07fffd5770a57a6\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014which is openly partisan on this issue; and when that court does not\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270f70cf7dccf4d76822c66546799a829\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is far too long. Is the member just about finished?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e54f7d3115bb4d8e9fd9011130971c24\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Just about, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f49f4b2ce943d58991608b8aca0a61\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Right. He is to come to an end quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224242ef3bf0204ff59bff82b9a1020c02\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014when that court does not usually take evidence on oath or pursue perjury, and accepts tales and documents that would not be acceptable in any other court? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3ffff4045e7424382525e921ccbeb8f\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, it is lamentable that the member has made such assertions about members of the judiciary. Secondly, the member obviously has not been listening in the previous few weeks. The Government has said over and over again that it will be passing legislation to clarify these matters. In the light of that clarification, the role of the M\u0101ori Land Court will be very, very clear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dab931f6656e4a9bb43ce72b86d47928\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. On a number of occasions you have reminded the House about the problems involved when members who sit on cross benches directly opposite each other choose to interject on each other. You have asked and requested members to respect those problems and to be silent. My second point is that you have consistently reminded the House in general that questions will be left free to be asked in silence. Throughout the entire asking of that question by Mr Stephen Franks, Mr Mark Peck consistently interjected\u2014not once, not twice, but three times. Everybody sat here and heard him, yet he remains in the Chamber. I ask for your consistency, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022731e86a7272342f3a9a482ec287c2ae5\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I think there comes a point when attacking the judiciary in this House has to be challenged, and I make no apologies for doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b36b7668e6d494a99faa77f625999c8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Unfortunately, the member will now have to leave the Chamber, however. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e64cdfbd39ac4361a42ffdcef5816ad2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is not appropriate for a member of Parliament who has been asked to leave to put out a threat, saying: \u201CI haven\u2019t finished with you.\u201D, as he is leaving. That comment, in the first person, is a clear a reference to you, Mr Speaker, and I think the member should be asked to withdraw and apologise for that statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b80545c2e264e4d86d59dc6ba624592\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022362f8d4465434b21b97aa363ee2a489b\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is also not appropriate for members of the ACT party to chip the member as he is leaving the Chamber at your instruction, so perhaps there should be some apologies from them, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220596fc6b70e74eb9b98b1e14013f32c2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Mr Peck, please leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EMark Peck withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224db477b0019e400a9e1539e17d927a5b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246bde5da90294b21bb35548fdee256aa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just a minute; I am dealing with one matter first. Regarding the matter raised by Mr Gosche, I declare that we now move on to the next question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2e310ccf4e641a8ba1ad89f50aa245a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. While Mr Gosche was raising that point of order, Mr Heatley interjected extremely loudly from the back bench opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c4e31f7c73840fb9c2202294e1b3df7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He did, and he will leave, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4a911388240453aaab9539ad280d418\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to raise with you the issue about where you are going to draw the line on this. Mr Peck left the Chamber, as you requested, then turned and walked straight back in. So Mr Peck, who had been asked to leave, made a comment as he was leaving, which he should not have done, went and sat somewhere else, withdrew and apologised, walked out, then walked back in. Then a member said to another member that he should get out, and the punishment for saying that\u2014he had to leave the Chamber, too\u2014is, quite frankly, ridiculous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c1e995a8a3542a2acd3831a3efbf84c\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223124e55cacdd4af499153b702a5b2a97\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not need any assistance on this matter, at all. I judge when people are going to be allowed back in, and that is the severity of the punishment I dictate. I have observed what happened. I observed that Mr Peck was asked to withdraw and apologise, which he did, but I also observed that he then did do something that was excessive, and he, of course, will have longer out than other people will have out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e67d962f9244be2b45d2db2cb161270\u0022\u003EGambling Bill\u2014Interactive Gambling\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e74e6c192c03413c891ea85c1e9dff3e\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (NZ National\u2014Clevedon)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Internal Affairs: Who suggested that interactive gambling should be included in the Gambling Bill, and what were the reasons for its inclusion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b03209222f3d49b7b082bf766ae45860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b03209222f3d49b7b082bf766ae45860\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS (Minister of Internal Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the inclusion of remote interactive gambling was suggested by the Lotteries Commission in its submission to the select committee. I imagine it made that decision because it thought it was a sound idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a2b4b48fbd044c8b34f14d75f087a83\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Did United Future members communicate to him or his representatives their reasons for being pleased, as they recently said, with the changes allowing the Lotteries Commission to move into Internet-based gaming; if so, what influence did their reasons have on the inclusion of the interactive gambling provision in the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87378eeb9dc407598a1d02e72c3642c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: Many people had input to that provision. I remind that member that her party\u2019s minority report in the Government Administration Committee\u2019s report on the Gambling Bill stated that: \u201CThe Lotteries Commission, which has lost market share over the years, is penalised, as it cannot use modern technology such as the online telephone account to sell their products. Unless the Lotteries Commission has flexibility, its long-term future is limited.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d456fa02b14618ad80105326700fe6\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the reaction to the passage of the Gambling Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238cae64a73f74de7a659a48171784664\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: I have had very little correspondence about the bill since it passed. However, I note that Dave Macpherson of the Waikato group GamblingWatch praised the reduction in the number of pokie machines in Hamilton as a result of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222396eb33a9b1481083a31ac5ef9eac74\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: On what grounds did the Minister overturn the considered decision of the select committee, which had heard the submissions of the Lotteries Commission and other bodies, in terms of putting up the last-minute Supplementary Order Paper that introduced interactive Internet gaming through the Lotteries Commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcfd062c5e6a485d8563ff64b6da5d50\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: After visiting Europe and Scandinavia and seeing it in operation, I thought it was a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e90de98b1c948a28969808e81e90220\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: Has he received advice from United Future that the Australian Productivity Commission inquiry found that interactive gambling was \u201Ca quantum leap\u201D in accessibility for problem gamblers, and that there were undue risks associated with problem gambling by minors and people under the influence of alcohol or drugs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228e686b62-8dc4-4f03-a7b6-2d0f9c874e9a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b17a5fb0df4988bb0fc885bdda00d1\u0022\u003EHon GEORGE HAWKINS\u003C/span\u003E: We had a good look at everything. The Productivity Commission report of 1999 states: \u201CWithout harm-minimisation measures and appropriate regulation, online gambling will pose significant new risks for problem gambling.\u201D We have put in safeguards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d88169124be4276bd7a500891048fe8\u0022\u003EUnemployment Benefit\u2014Administration\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292b4598d911342ff8bf632ce48beb714\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment: What recent operational changes have been made to the process for people applying for the unemployment benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccbe9e77fea24979a310e6fc84e785f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccbe9e77fea24979a310e6fc84e785f8\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E There is a new seminar process being rolled out across the country. This seminar process has two main focuses. It provides clients with information about their full and correct entitlements and obligations, prior to a benefit application. The second active focus for the seminar is for the client to identify what steps he or she will take to find work. Work and Income provides the necessary support and training, advice identifying opportunities, and encourages clients to go out and do it for themselves, as there has not been a better time to find a job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262f607ae2b2f40cd9646971e596aaeab\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What effect has this had on the number of people registering for the unemployment benefit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e34374a643945efb00126d0e7491470\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWork for You\u201D seminars have been piloted in the Avondale, Onehunga, and Manukau Work and Income sites since March 2003. Interim analysis suggests that the number of people requiring an unemployment benefit in those sites is 19 percent lower than it would have been without the \u201CWork for You\u201D seminars. The 97,822 registered on the unemployment benefit represents a 16-year low in unemployment. This Labour-Progressive Government has the unemployed out looking for jobs that are there\u2014in contrast to what Don Brash and National have. They would have the unemployed looking for a post office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022202ac99e24ea4f499acad8e598b5c5fd\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: What reports has the Minister received about the level of problem gambling experienced by people currently applying for the unemployment, sickness, and invalids benefits?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acc39b1419924a1884cd27682cfb91af\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any specific figures on those who are applying for sickness and invalids benefits. However, I make the point, which the member has alluded to, that we do have a small rise in invalids and sickness beneficiaries, but that is more than offset by a decline of 53,000 people on the unemployment benefit, compared with 1999\u2014a 34 percent reduction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca0b4d55a1d4d428eea1cc863699dd4\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise under what legal powers people applying for the unemployment benefit have been required for some months already to attend \u201CWork for You\u201D seminars prior to receiving the benefit, or have applicants been conned into thinking that that is a legal requirement when it is not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d48683d0dd8c4bb5a25d5dc8c33a6fb1\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Applicants have been more than happy to attend the seminars, and they have received very good advice. I bring to the member\u2019s attention a case that recently came to my attention while I was in Greymouth. Someone was so inspired by attending the seminar and taking personal responsibility for finding a job that he walked 9 miles to Strongman Mine, found there was no job there, walked somewhere else, and came back to Work and Income and said: \u201CI\u2019ve got a job.\u201D I think that is the sort of positive attitude this Government is trying to encourage, and that member should support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002269c5c4541c704e65b94372855878865b\u0022\u003EBiotechnology Strategy\u2014Research and Business\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb616b280d2c494ab6b806b57f7161e4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (NZ National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Research, Science and Technology: Does he agree with the \u201Ckey actions\u201D of the New Zealand Biotechnology Strategy to recruit and retain scientists and to encourage collaboration between research providers and businesses; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3799f4349ab4705baefa08a8c4bc1c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3799f4349ab4705baefa08a8c4bc1c0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Research, Science and Technology):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do, because recruitment, retention, and collaboration are good things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0f0d8c68ff4bb49697ad32a41ad4a7\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: With the new knowledge that the AgResearch plans to close the Wallaceville Animal Research Centre will have far greater impact than originally thought, including significant loss of scientists overseas, huge loss of morale, and the disintegration of the research business clusters in the Hutt Valley, what role will he play to prevent this critical loss of science capacity in New Zealand; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dcee641ccb545c1a04a583bff0783b0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The member appears to be misinformed. The truth of the matter is that the immunology group, which is due to leave for Palmerston North in something like early 2005, has chosen to do so. The animal health group has chosen to leave and set up with Massey University, and the AgResearch campus across the road, around about January 2006. The only group of scientists who have yet to make their decision are the reproductive scientists. They are likely, but not yet certain, to move to the Invermay Agricultural Centre in, I think, January 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022694523b9048d490388b74c10c9606347\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister provide any examples of where the Government is facilitating collaboration between research providers and business?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022180cf48a0f3246a29ee3ff8e75be1a80\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes I can. The Government\u2019s new Research Consortia programme is proving very popular with New Zealand industry. Already, six consortia have been contracted and four more are under negotiation. Together these consortia have a total private and public budget in excess of $30 million a year, each year, for the next 4 to 6 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022929d3378a7f64b6d88cd18df4d65c501\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: If the New Zealand Biotechnology Strategy does not have sufficient funding\u2014as in the case, for instance, of the Lincoln University Soil Programme\u2014what other avenues are available to recruit and retain their scientists, and how do the business partners act when the Government research body is unable to operate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022470c1a6062714245885081e49db41aa7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret the member is a little misinformed about the soil science issues. There have been reports that soil science research has been cut. This is not true. It has been cut a little\u2014from $7.4 million, I think, to $7.2 million\u2014but not the $6 million to $3 million cut that the New Zealand Herald would have us believe. The underlying fact is that the sustainability round just completed was oversubscribed by nearly 300 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91726dca0e146e9bcf7489efa86f402\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile his earlier reply with the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report on the closure of Wallaceville, which shows an annual loss of $24 million to the regional economy, and the loss of 240 full-time jobs around the Hutt Valley; and does he accept that the AgResearch closure plan needs an urgent review, with a view to retaining and building on the strengths of Wallaceville?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec852668f690482bb9fc98782f37d3db\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to advise that I have seen a pattern with New Zealand Institute of Economic Research reports, in that they tend to have some bearing on those who pay for them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1e8f685fc6042818a20a7e8ce1c9035\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table two articles. The first is entitled: \u201CThe economic impact of closing the Wallaceville research facility\u201D, which shows a loss of $24 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8751b70022c4979a6ac67126a28db9b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223469210abf424b68acb23f2874c5906e\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: The second is from the Independent, July 2003: \u201CGovernment punishes research while promising to promote it\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d31151a02dd74e448413bbc4d1f53d0c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e9878c19036d462fb43ff537d4edd177\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 8 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022d06f069efb9947d2832bedb58f5247df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d06f069efb9947d2832bedb58f5247df\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table three orders of the M\u0101ori Land Court: two on 21 September 1999 and one on 14 April 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002248fc3880e7974f0e92c41a208a4b140f\u0022\u003EHome Detention and Parole\u2014Accountability\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260d8357f144647b5906bd6d22fb40221\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Is he satisfied that home detention and parole are fulfilling the purpose for which they were intended, and does he have confidence in them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002203de05911c474533b46afefdd09a5aa7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203de05911c474533b46afefdd09a5aa7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Generally, yes. Both schemes are designed to reduce the incidence of reoffending. Statistics show that both schemes do achieve that purpose, and in the case of home detention, dramatically so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe884f3c6a340299328fc640a8894e3\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What was the purpose and intent behind the decisions made by his department that saw a man who had been sentenced to 6 years\u2019 jail for six robberies paroled after serving only 2 years of that sentence\u2014a man who, despite being in total breach of his parole conditions, was never hunted down and recalled to prison, but was instead left at large, so allowing him to carry out another eight armed robberies, for which he is now awaiting sentencing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e1d8ca9c8e4583a579ff49e237d515\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is very hard to comment on a specific case without the full details. I would be happy to look into that if the member were to provide them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3bd973814840419e1138a8dd979be9\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen evidence that others share his confidence in home detention?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229fcb4d0a62344806a2c0f71dbb4c7d2b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The benefits of home detention have been broadly recognised for many years since its introduction by the then National Government in 1993, its expansion by the National - New Zealand First coalition, and through to the New Zealand First 1999 law and order policy, which called for greater use of home detention, instead of, as Mr Winston Peters said, \u201Cgiving those louts taxpayer-funded accommodation that costs $60,000 a year each.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223040d3ded8d14024bb9fea4ce633bb09\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why Chubb Security guards were required to monitor an inmate on home detention by making a 1-hour round trip every 3 hours, 24 hours a day, for 57 days; what sort of electronic monitoring is that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022121724cfcf1745c09040d8c06c8f6283\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is often acknowledged that in some parts of New Zealand it is difficult to get the electronic monitoring in place. [Interruption] Well, partly it is true because the previous National Government did nothing about telecommunications reform for 9 years. We are doing something about that. Eventually there will be 100 percent coverage, but that member must recognise that it will take some time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245ae3bae734a4a0a8040d24e4b2ec658\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have any concerns about the case in today\u2019s Dominion Post where an under-15-year-old rapist does not have to even ask for home detention, because under current sentencing laws he cannot be sent to prison; and if the Minister is concerned about that, by what date will that bizarre law be changed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223b0840a48f94bff8a26c9988d7429f5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That is obviously a matter to do with sentencing and the Minister of Justice. The whole issue of home detention, which was the subject of the initial question, has been a success. Some changes need to be made, and I am considering some of them at the moment. But there is no doubt about it\u2014home detention has reduced the recidivism rate in New Zealand quite substantially.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202a12d74e2264d97a99423c57fcc82c1\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister give this House a categorical assurance that each and every breach of the provisions of home detention, no matter how trivial it may seem, is reflected in the figures provided by the Department of Corrections; if not, what confidence can we have that the detentions can be said to be effective when the veracity of the figures is found to be wanting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229656b1b3046848da98c0d49a6ad342b4\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Breaches of conditions are obviously monitored and recorded by the probation service, and I say to the member that the service does an extraordinarily good job in difficult circumstances. I hope that the member will provide some support for that group, which is doing a very good service for the rest of the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a49efb74dce4fb1b18047b53cb8a4a8\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance because I asked a question as to what assurance the Minister could give about the veracity of the figures. I did not get an answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d682ee1a2454c3494abc0f8fbbf586b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister may care to comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ff9417d2d7a48d2b8f90f3f91845fd5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I indicated to the member that breaches around things like home detention are recorded and monitored by the probation service, and if there is a case where a breach is significant, then recall is an option. In many, many cases the probation service applies to the Parole Board for recall to prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277a2c8af7a8c42659be5d7770d13382a\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: What was the purpose and intent of allowing a senior Mongrel Mob member\u2014whose previous multiple convictions included aggravated robbery times three, kidnapping times one, escaping custody times two, and aggravated assault\u2014to have front-end home detention, which has since resulted in his being busted for manufacturing methamphetamine and being in possession of a pistol with ammunition; what is that all about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a19541dc18b47d98ae1f5f2245ff3e8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Once again, it is hard to comment on an individual case, because I do not have the information before me. But I will say that decisions on those kinds of matters are appropriately made by the Parole Board, and that is the way it should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e0da5aed74470dacb4d395786ae219\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister not just admit that his statistics on breaches of home detention are shonky, and that he has not got a clue as to what is going on in his department; if he rejects that assertion, could he please explain to the House how it is that people are committing offences whilst on home detention and are being given community service, rather than being recalled to prison?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222fbd16076de4c51ae2ff43a0aaabddc\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The statistics on breaches are pretty good. The question is really about the relationship between breaches and offences, and I have already indicated to that member that that is something I am looking into, because I think we need tighter statistics on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7fa2332a7c94b42be4d10163d515418\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222fa069777b8440efaef99ab22622163f\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a641c1f3b604e62be77ee5b3138da60\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We now come to the general debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022781b1db4acc644609452dc8fe556232d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022781b1db4acc644609452dc8fe556232d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I take it that it is in order for the Rt Hon Winston Peters to come back?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daed43780ffb4ae6a8c1f2f0cb39a64e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. The member can come to the Chair to discuss that at his convenience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd71795614624adca0bb0dc08bccbf85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd71795614624adca0bb0dc08bccbf85\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is interesting that you are making New Zealand First come to the Chair to discuss that, when Mr Cunliffe, who was removed during question time, has freely come back into the Chamber and sat down. I presume that we have the same rules for everybody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022476ae81b00a14f1aacb46b24d498ecfc\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: There is a slight difference in that case, Mr Sowry. The respective whips did come to discuss the matter with the Chair, as Mr Brown is doing now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdc06e6b5f884b6d95e9ed59bcd2e94c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdc06e6b5f884b6d95e9ed59bcd2e94c\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. Too many Opposition politicians in this place are blinded by their own self-assessed brilliance. We see their verbal acrobatics daily\u2014not to mention their verbal diarrhoea. We see the antics of Opposition politicians as they elbow-jolt each other off the television screens. We see grandstanding, bullying, and a lot of time-wasting and puffed-up importance, signifying nothing. Any performance in pursuit of a positive poll goes, and one has to ask whether Bill English, Roger Sowry, Murray McCully, Nick Smith, and Winston Peters\u2014who are all regular offenders\u2014have ever stopped to think about what decent, hard-working New Zealanders think of their antics in this House. Have those members ever run the test of what their mothers would think of their behaviour? I think it is time that they did. This time they have gone too far. There is nothing wrong with robust debate and strongly held views, but to attack the people and institutions that this country relies on, for cheap political gain, is about as low as a desperate Opposition politician can go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ELet us look at the list of the victims of those members today\u2014and the victims are piling up day after day. There are the judges, who cannot defend themselves against criticism and self-serving attacks, and public servants who have been accused of collusion with the Government\u2014Department of Labour officials, Immigration Service officials, the State Services Commissioner, the Race Relations Commissioner, the human rights commissioner, the head of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, and now the New Zealand Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThis country has the best police force in the world. It is corruption-free, fearless, and impartial. It decides whom it will prosecute and whom it will not. Its officers are trained to assess situations and make judgment calls. We rely on their integrity and judgment to uphold the law, to deal fairly with people, and to protect the people of New Zealand. Now the police have become the target for the Opposition\u2019s political games. The attack on Marty Grenfell, the Wellington area controller, by Winston Peters and Murray McCully is nothing short of gutter politics. Mr Grenfell leads a team of men and women here in Wellington who are doing a great job. He is highly respected and a man of integrity, and for him to be smeared by innuendo by a couple of our most seamy politicians is sickening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhy have Winston Peters and Murray McCully attacked Mr Grenfell? [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298fe16247cc94b0db46ff5061c510057\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek through you an assurance from the Hon Mark Burton, Minister of Defence, that he did not call me a \u201Cscumbag\u201D in the tirade he threw across the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224705e04ab8b44520a6c9fb373f03f9cb\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I can assure the member that I did not call him a \u201Cscumbag\u201D in the exchange that neither of us should have been having while my colleague was speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022701361ea36ba4aa78687096b1073d277\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Why are those Opposition politicians attacking Marty Grenfell? It is because he worked on secondment in the Minister of Police\u2019s office for a period of time. If we extrapolate that argument, does it mean that outstanding men like Dick Macdonald, who went on to become a commissioner, Paul Fitzharris, who was an assistant commissioner, or Ted Cox, a district commander in Auckland, were all biased because they worked with National or New Zealand First Ministers of Police? Of course it does not mean that. The arguments have been pathetic, and they are not based on facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe second reason those members have attacked Mr Grenfell is that they say he is influenced by the Government, and that he was told by the Government to prosecute Shane Ardern. That is not correct. Mr Grenfell does not take instructions from this Government. It is the police who made the decision to prosecute Mr Ardern. They weighed up the situation; they decided to prosecute Shane Ardern. The police decided not to take any action against Winston Peters when he walked away without paying for a taxi fare. Most people in New Zealand would consider that to be theft. I have no doubt that the police decided to look at the circumstances. They realised Mr Peters was tired and emotional, and when they made their decision they took that into account. It is the police who decide whom they will prosecute; that is certainly not decided by this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ENow the same people in the House have decided to attack the Speaker of this Parliament. They are accusing him of bias and of influencing the police, as well. Those are all actions of desperate men, and they are all aimed at undermining the integrity of the institutions of this country. Why do those members do that? They do it for the sake of one or two tawdry votes. They do not do it because they believe in it or because there is any integrity in it, but because they think by doing so they may sit on the Government benches one day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u002201dd749a6ea34cd6a3a2d82483129e86\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201dd749a6ea34cd6a3a2d82483129e86\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Health, in her speech\u2014which I am sure she would not want to be called a tirade; as my colleague says, it was much more of a rant\u2014was right in one thing. The police do decide who they will prosecute, just as the police decided that they would not prosecute the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, over her forgery. That was deemed not necessary to prosecute. Maybe that was because the Prime Minister of New Zealand refused to answer the police\u2019s questions\u2014Mr Ardern, however, did answer the questions put to him. Maybe that is why they stopped before prosecuting her. Maybe it was because the Prime Minister\u2019s very good friend and witness, Mr Chris Carter, would not sign his own statement. Maybe that was why they decided not to prosecute the Prime Minister. We know that when the Prime Minister committed forgery\u2014and we were told by her, first of all, that it was just one painting\u2014the first lot of blame the Prime Minister put on was on the charity that asked her for the painting. She said that it put her under pressure, and that that was why she did the painting. Then it came to light that, in fact, there was more than one painting. There were several paintings that the Prime Minister forged. There were several paintings that she did not paint and to which she put her own name. The police decided to turn a blind eye to that, and the Opposition judges that standard against the standard that is being used now. It is just like the standard that the Prime Minister is using now, when she goes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214ba6534cbfa4eeeb3c2186d1d79f745\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: The long arm of the law, reaching out from the grave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f913272db66349189ac3ff6af6395273\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask whether you are going to allow a consistent line of interjections from Mr Benson-Pope. It happens every week in this debate. The Speaker sits there every week and lets it occur, and I ask you whether you will, at some point, stop him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221dd1d607084340349cef4f87ac29cfba\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member. It is a point well raised, and I was considering it. I have to say that it is a robust debate and the level of interjection on the previous speaker was just as great, but I will ask the members on my right to take it easy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eed355efa4fc43b29bcbb999ac99605b\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Prime Minister, of course, has different rules for herself, as distinct from everybody else. No one else is allowed to question officials, but the Prime Minister blamed the officials when she said, first of all, that she did not say that this country would get into the top half of the OECD. Then when it was proved that she did, she blamed the officials. She blamed the officials when she said that she had no idea how \u201Cancestral landscapes\u201D got into the amendment to the Resource Management Act. Then, of course, when it became clear that it was by her own fair hand that the documentation was signed, she blamed officials. She blamed officials when all the documents were not released for the \u201Ccorngate\u201D inquiry. When that became an issue, it was nothing to do with her. There was just one document left out, and all of a sudden the officials were blamed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis Prime Minister blames officials whenever it suits her, but as soon as anyone else dares to raise anything to do with the public service, they are deemed to be great big bullies. I say to the Prime Minister that we want the same standard for the Prime Minister as the rest of New Zealand has to face. The rest of New Zealand would have to front up to the police on an art forgery charge. The rest of New Zealand would have to front up if one of their staff members had his or her hand in the till, as the Prime Minister has had on her staff recently, with no prosecution being carried out. The rest of New Zealand would have to front up for that, but this Prime Minister, who is such a credit to herself and just a victim of her own success, cannot understand how someone who is so successful and popular can even be criticised or questioned. She sees herself as being totally above the law. Any Government that is led by a Prime Minister who sees herself as being above the law is in its dying stages. That is why people like Mr Benson-Pope lie when they tell reporters, as he did yesterday, that they are not going to give an apology\u2014yet he was giving an apology. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d47a044ff1b14e80a4d75a290c4b08bb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw and apologise for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab38f77f355444039aa9354c3d5afa95\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not say that he lied in the House, but that outside the House he certainly did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022abc771fc1d894732a7114cae1d94f306\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Those words are not acceptable in this Chamber. Whether they refer to some incident outside the House is totally irrelevant. The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd93c03b10aa4826b2623c6b67f09d08\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. We know what Mr Benson-Pope does. We know the double-dealing he does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a545ce1ad694599a758f9c7f708feaa\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I asked for a withdrawal and an apology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022251de0f414e843baa343a80dabde4ed0\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. I withdraw and apologise. We know what Mr Benson-Pope does. He says one thing to our whips, but it is a different story to the media. Members can make their own judgments on what that is, but we know what that is called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9021e906128406f829e72f821dcf762\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9021e906128406f829e72f821dcf762\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E The Opposition has sunk to new depths over the past couple of weeks. Opposition members have gone even lower than I thought would be possible from that lot. They are now wallowing in the murky territory of gutter politics, bringing into question the integrity of the public service, the police, the judiciary, and, now, the office of the Speaker. Why are Opposition members doing that? It is simply because they have failed to get traction on any issues that they have sought to debate. They cannot attack the Government, so they turn their sights on people who cannot fight back. That is utterly gutless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd9bc15215b045b8bd27c4f6474403b3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have seldom had laid at me the accusation that I am gutless, but the general blanketing of the Opposition in that way is unacceptable, and I think a withdrawal and apology is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6639026cc84e31bcede3981ab30cc0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285e5381e6e294a538a9302394a2cdc5b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Lianne Dalziel may well be making a personal observation and reflecting upon herself. If that is the case, I have no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907d4c11967f463ea8eef7bb44c60326\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I will ask the honourable member to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259eda8e5efe04167b9970eca122bc174\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I have been in Parliament for 13 years, and I have never seen anything like this before. It is unprecedented and it cannot go unchallenged. I refer to a letter that Bill English sent to the State Services Commissioner last week. I read it with increasing incredulity at the gall of a so-called honourable member of this House in allowing his signature to accompany such an outrageous attack on the public service. The more I read it, the more I felt as though I was reading an old-style vicious Dominion editorial. Then I figured it must be in \u201CLonghand\u201D, because it was written by Richard Long, not by Bill English. Bill English has put his signature on someone else\u2019s piece of writing. Talk about pathetic! No wonder the Leader of the Opposition is at 7 percent in the polls, and falling\u2014he has to get his chief of staff to write an editorial, then he passes it off as a letter to one of New Zealand\u2019s top public servants. That explains why it is factually wrong in just about every material respect, and drags the public service into the gutter with the Opposition. That letter was written because the State Services Commissioner dared to speak in defence of people who, by convention, cannot defend themselves. The reason they cannot defend themselves is set out in the article\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223398a0e60e854f98b563e6c99ae3b45b\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just want clarification as to whether the member is talking about recent cases, or Christine Rankin and Roger Estall\u2014cases that she used to talk about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb834946dc31413cb150fef4fe93b3fb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226cf074bde0b54af7a06fab67bfda4ece\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Clearly that was not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e760c0e6364e4a48af94a71be135ba6e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014I agree.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222094452f5530422895eb646a5658f1d9\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I must also, if I may, ask that your attention be drawn to the constant, ceaseless barrage from four members of the Opposition. I do not mind that because I know our member can cope more than adequately with that sort of objection, interjection and cant, but I observe that it is not consistent with the way the Opposition members themselves cannot take being interjected on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022277ebe09e58c478390fb1b387b6d7ee0\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d5cc674be9d4497b028f3e3b23b4769\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it on the same issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d7175e6dca144f98d62c7439f3fbf88\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is. This is a time-limited debate, and we have had statements by members that speeches should not be broken up by interjections. The point of order raised was not in fact a point of order. I think that you should rule not only that it was not a point of order but also that the member should be asked to withdraw and apologise for doing so. This is a robust debate, so let us just get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a72147bd69fb43188a2bf6d8aa36e4aa\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for that. It is quite right that the point raised by Hon Roger Sowry was not a point of order. I will not have members breaking up a speech with matters that are not points of order. I take note of what Mr Benson-Pope said, although I do not give it much weight. I thank Hon Richard Prebble for clarifying some matters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff0e7221f9784b3aa6b77e1d210cb340\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a practical matter. I think we are having some difficulty with some of the speakers in the Chamber\u2014there is not much volume. It would be good to hear the speakers amid the amount of noise that is going backwards and forwards. The debate is robust, and we really cannot hear very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a329fc1db7de45dc875e34e6e9c57fa2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a matter of control with the microphones, because of the volume coming from the speakers. If the speakers drop down, those volumes will come up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d72485af3834d4ea4431cdfbf5f1373\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The reason the public service cannot defend itself is that it would put it head to head with Opposition politicians, jeopardising its ability to work constructively with those politicians\u2014should they become the Government in the future. Well, that party has no chance of being a Government in the future. What really got Mr English\u2019s chief of staff upset was that it says that they\u2014that is, the chief executives of our public service\u2014should not be used as proxies for ministers in political debate, let alone be subjected to unfounded allegations of grossly improper behaviour. That is what has got them upset. Opposition spokespersons cannot take on Government ministers, so they attack the leaders of the public service instead. They create conspiracy theories, and they attack the public service. It is the refuge of their incompetence; it is the refuge of those who have got no credibility; it is the refuge of a once-proud National Party, now run by the brat pack, which is an embarrassment to all the good decent people who used to be in the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBill English\u2019s own reputation as a decent bloke cannot survive the willingness to allow this to go on in his name. Even when National gets a small lift in the polls, Bill English goes down another two points\u2014down to 7 percent, and falling. It is no wonder he reacted badly. He does not care about having to work constructively with public servants, because he will never lead a National Party to Government in this country. Now the attack is on the office of the Speaker. What gutter politics from Roger Sowry, Bill English, and from Winston Peters! They behaved appallingly in this Chamber yesterday. That was the worst thing I have ever seen in this House\u2014an attack on the Speaker in that way. How dare Winston Peters use the tragic circumstances faced by that young man\u2014and our hearts go out to him\u2014to suggest that the Speaker had behaved inappropriately. I fully support the police decision not to prosecute that man. It was their decision. There was no influence from the Speaker, and that was right and proper. The police showed humanity in their decision making. They should be congratulated, not rubbished by the Opposition. The points of order raised by Bill English and Roger Sowry yesterday show that they are willing to drag the constitutional position of the Speaker of this House into their pathetic little attempts to get traction. It is a constitutional outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002233f164728bb14101953d38f8fa5dc402\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233f164728bb14101953d38f8fa5dc402\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This afternoon we had a pious contribution from Roger Sowry about interjecting when he was speaking. I watched him throughout that speech yelling and screaming across the Chamber. I know he could not take it when was speaking and he took a point of order on it, but if he wants to say that there should not be two standards in here, why does he not practise what he preaches?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u00227c8df142ecff40dabcdc44a26ce18af6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227c8df142ecff40dabcdc44a26ce18af6\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Over a number weeks I have raised the fact that members opposite change seats and yell and scream right through speeches. Several times the Speaker has ruled that he will clamp down on this, but that appears not to be happening. In fact, you yourself ruled that this was a robust debate and interjections could carry on, so I intend to carry on. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022432b2bf6c05c4394910cd1d16c011eec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022432b2bf6c05c4394910cd1d16c011eec\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Quiet during a point of order; otherwise members will be out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002261c78310992e4181a726d52db4053057\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261c78310992e4181a726d52db4053057\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E On reflection, I also want to raise in this discussion the point that my colleague Annette King has just raised. Despite the fact that you asked for a withdrawal and apology from Mr Sowry for accusing me of being a liar, he immediately repeated that outrageous statement at the end of his speech. That is totally unacceptable behaviour\u2014clearly from a member who is not in control of himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a30f30cea4444bc2ad5e31bc3c03f9cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a30f30cea4444bc2ad5e31bc3c03f9cd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members. I did not hear that statement, but any complaint against it should have been made at the time. I think both sides need to look in the mirror.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1c3b1dd8ff947f0afdce20d5b0f3686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1c3b1dd8ff947f0afdce20d5b0f3686\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I respect the courts; I respect our constitution. I believe the separation of powers is a vital part of it. I believe that the Law Society and the Bar Association, in expressing concern about the points I have been raising, have been upholding their part in our constitution. But I believe our constitution is being eroded without people recognising it. It started a decade and a half ago when, with no guidance, the courts were left to decide what the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi meant. There was no room for the court to duck that\u2014they have to make the law mean something, and so they had to invent something called the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EBut we have now got to a stage where leaving to the courts things that are too hot to handle politically is a routine strategy. If our courts are deeply embroiled in unresolved political matters, our conventions have to be recast. Politicians\u2014elected representatives\u2014cannot be snookered out of leading political debate. The people must be able to elect and sack someone who takes responsibility for deeply political decisions. Our constitution will not continue to work if the people cannot look and say that there is someone making those decisions that they have a right to get rid of. In a country where there is sovereignty of Parliament for the people, the people should have the right to get rid of those who are making decisions that are politically contentious. The consensus that enabled Labour and National to do that for two decades is going, but the heritage is still there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI am finding that more people around New Zealand are blaming the courts and Maori for their current unease and worry about the seabed, the foreshore and other issues than are blaming this Parliament and the Government. That is not fair to Maori or to the courts. But for as long as a Government can send those issues to the courts and then hide behind the convention that elected representatives cannot examine the pressures, the influences, the politics, the factions, the beliefs, and the biases that might be brought to bear, then the constitution is being suborned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E For the last 2 weeks we have been trying to find out exactly what task this Government proposes to give the M\u0101ori Land Court. The M\u0101ori Land Court, we have been told, will be able to do what it will with customary property claims\u2014anything other than grant fee simple title. That is nearly no restriction. That is nearly no prescription. How will New Zealanders trust the M\u0101ori Land Court to deal with these matters impartially when it has been set up as an inquisitorial body, primarily to decide disputes between or among M\u0101ori? When it is turned into a constitutional body to decide claims between the Crown\u2014for all New Zealanders\u2014and perhaps 15 percent of the population, that is an entirely different matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EDespite the soothing words of the Court of Appeal about few cases succeeding, the M\u0101ori Land Court has already made its views known on this issue at Ohiwa. The counsel in that case, who are now both influential M\u0101ori Land Court judges, made their views clear. In the Wellington Tenths Trust decision, the Waitangi Tribunal made its view clear about what should happen with seabed and foreshore claims. At the moment, a division of the Waitangi Tribunal is drumming up opposition to the Government and urging claimants to hurry and get their piece in, so as to influence the issue here. It is acting as a participant in the political game. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen the M\u0101ori Land Court does not insist on evidence on oath, does not generally pursue perjury, does not usually allow cross-examination, and accepts as evidence tales that the rest of us\u2014indeed any other court\u2014would never accept, it is not an appropriate body to be deciding constitutional and property issues. M\u0101ori Land Court judges are appointed by the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs, who sees his role as being an advocate for M\u0101ori pumping M\u0101ori\u2014in some cases, at the expense of the rest of New Zealand. In comparison with others, M\u0101ori Land Court judges are generally young and inexperienced, and are often appointed to give regional, tribal, or even gender balance, and not for their knowledge of property rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002265de03b38c784a9a89d413b08c18cfef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002265de03b38c784a9a89d413b08c18cfef\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E That is a somewhat different Stephen Franks from the one we heard even last week. That is the closest thing I have seen to a letter saying: \u201CDear Parliament, I\u2019m sorry for what I said last week. Signed, Stephen Franks.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThere he was, talking about constitutional issues, but last week and the week before, he has been personally attacking judges. There is no future in that. I think Margaret Wilson is right to say that there is nothing wrong with a politician advocating a change to the law\u2014which is what he did just then\u2014but attacking a judge personally, either directly or by implication, risks bringing the judiciary into disrepute. Unfounded attacks on judges are unfair, and not in anyone\u2019s best interests. I say to that member, play the ball, not the person. In my view, even Mr Prebble, who upholds and respects constitutional issues in this Parliament, would have been embarrassed by what that member did last week. Such attacks on individuals in the judiciary will not stop his party languishing around 4 or 5 percent in the polls. There is no future in that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWhen I was a young fellow, I used to play rugby, and we always whinged about the ref at half-time when we were losing. We never, never whinged about the ref at half-time when we were winning. The coach used to say: \u201CStop whingeing about the ref and concentrate on winning the game!\u201D That is exactly my advice to the National Party. Its members\u2019 recent attacks on the Speaker were shameful. They try to hide the fact that there is no leadership, no policy, and no principle in that party. There is nothing in that party, so what do its members try to do? All they try to do is shift attention away from their pathetic performance and on to other people. I say that is outrageous. There was a great painter once\u2014I think her name was Barbara Kruger\u2014who said: \u201CDo nothing, blame everyone, be bitter.\u201D That sums up the National Party in a nutshell. Its members are attacking Parliament, attacking public servants, attacking the police, and attacking the judiciary. Everybody knows that is a smokescreen, a cover-up, for the fact that they have no leadership, no policies, and no principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ELet me also come to New Zealand First. New Zealand First has been most concerned about who has been prosecuted and who has not. We should probably feel a little sorry for Mr Peters, because he earns so little that he cannot afford his own taxi fare. What a shame! I can tell that member that we will fix that little problem. As Minister of Transport, I will be introducing legislation\u2014certainly, surely, and not too far away\u2014to deal with the offence of taxi-running. Maybe these people are tired and emotional, who knows? Maybe it is late at night, and they hop into a taxi and the hard-working taxi-driver, trying to make a living to bring up the family, asks for the fare and the tired, emotional person says he or she is not going to pay. Well, there will be an opportunity for the police to prosecute that person. I know that New Zealand First, which supports hard-working New Zealanders, will support that legislation. New Zealand First is a law and order party and it will support the offence of taxi-running. I am absolutely certain about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EEverybody knows what the National Party is up to. Everybody knows that its members are attempting to try to hide the fact that they are making absolutely no headway. \u201CFlat-lining\u201D I think was the word used in the New Zealand Herald article just recently. Then, of course, there are a whole lot of other editorials talking about the National Party\u2019s performance, which is absolutely hopeless. It is dog tucker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022a49db0a304484faa9b3e863ceb76141f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a49db0a304484faa9b3e863ceb76141f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E If there are any students of the general debate in this country, they will have noticed today a very significant change in the Labour Party\u2019s usual attack. Normally, Labour members engage themselves in a petty attack on the Opposition and run off with all sorts of spurious arguments about why they will be in Government for ever. Today though, we have seen those same speakers often turning the argument back into a defence of the indefensible Helen Clark\u2014turning this whole debate into a defence of the Prime Minister, Helen Clark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ed073d6b04e44e080f58d23fe677545\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your point?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271bd733c6c794fedbbaf1ae299252de2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The honourable member John Tamihere concedes that that is exactly what they are about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe events of the last few days have started to show what will become the hallmarks of this Government\u2014no accountability, and double standards. That will be the mark of the Helen Clark Government when historians look back at it in years to come. Is it not fascinating that my friend Shane Ardern can commit the same act as Bob Tizard did some years ago in driving a tractor up the steps and towards the doors of Parliament House, and at the will of the Prime Minister has a police prosecution brought against him for reckless behaviour? Yet the Prime Minister herself, when faced with \u201Cpaintergate\u201D and the art fraud imposed upon the community of New Zealand, simply refused to cooperate with the police. Even though the police were able to say that there was a prima facie case for her to be prosecuted, she was able to avoid such a prosecution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI ask Labour speakers to start considering whether the line in the police\u2019s own comments on that case should apply to Shane Ardern. While the police said that there was a prima facie case for the Prime Minister to be prosecuted, and that the ingredients of the offence had been met, it might have an impact disproportionate to the seriousness of the conduct issue or the personal culpability of the parties involved. Why is it that the police can apply that opinion to the Prime Minister, but not to Shane Ardern? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EGovernment members should not start getting sanctimonious about whether the police are being attacked for exercising double standards when, by their own standards, that is clearly at play in this case. In this instance, the police are acting only because the Prime Minister instructed them to do so. It was the Prime Minister who came out and said that Shane Ardern had committed an offence of disorderly behaviour. That was her prosecution, not that of the police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f01e387b9b4178a8192af5c18eaf6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not know why, but the senior Government whip, Mr Benson-Pope, has made statements that are clearly out of order, and he should be asked to withdraw and apologise now. He said: \u201CProduce some facts before you start telling lies.\u201D He knows that he said it, and we need an apology from him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8dd421c3eca4a1a8e6d6590cff8cfb5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Could the member repeat what he said Mr Benson-Pope said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022617be87969484db899cbaeb43792146c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The senior Government whip said: \u201CProduce some facts before you start telling lies\u201D. That is out of order and unparliamentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268f0413889c04f1cb5c9b3cbf5d053c9\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the senior Government whip whether\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdd9e9d41b30435286ff367a1f9af0d7\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: My words were: \u201CProduce some evidence before you start telling lies like that.\u201D I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527858f1d6fe4775bde540b6af4213e7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fact that on nationwide television the Prime Minister said that, in her opinion, Mr Ardern had committed an offence of disorderly behaviour. The police then came trumping into Parliament and bailed up Mr Ardern\u2014without the permission of the Speaker, it would seem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224e37bacefe04d91aa85328476265cf4\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise for interrupting Mr Brownlee\u2019s speech, but you have just reprimanded Mr Benson-Pope, the senior Government whip, asked him to withdraw and apologise, and he immediately starts a continuous barrage of interruptions and interjections across the Chamber. It is totally unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c66175d6ae304732971f7651632e3ed7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising that. Members should have regard for those who want to listen to the speeches being made in the House. I have no problem hearing Mr Brownlee, but, clearly, those at the back have a problem. I ask that continual barrage types of interjections not go on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222edea0375df54b41a60b18d55542c13e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Government members are sensitive to the points I am making, simply because they know that in this case the double standard of Helen Clark, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, is exposed in the rawest way possible. She got off a charge in respect of which the police said there was prima facie evidence for her being convicted of forgery. She then goes around pointing the finger at Shane Ardern, declaring that he has behaved in a disorderly way, and the police came jackbooting into this Parliament, stamping all over the rights of privilege that members of this House have, and what do we get? We have the Speaker saying: \u201CWell, I didn\u2019t know, and I might deal with it some time after Mr Ardern has faced the music at the court.\u201D That is setting up a double standard, and New Zealanders are not stupid. Interestingly, it is on the simple act of driving a tractor up a few steps to Parliament that people will see that the Government has just gone way over the top. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe issue of double standards, of course, also applies to the \u201Ccorngate\u201D affair, where the Prime Minister goes round saying: \u201CI want this exposed to the public\u201D, but sits in the House today and blocks this House from debating that very issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002293487dc1186b49b7b0cbfa8bc307e481\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293487dc1186b49b7b0cbfa8bc307e481\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E I have been in this House for nearly 10 years, and during that time, and in the past, I have seen policy and legislation introduced that has made me and other members of the House pretty angry. But I have never ever seen such disgraceful behaviour as was exhibited in the House yesterday by Stephen Franks, Winston Peters, and Bill English. I am not alone in feeling such disgust at their behaviour. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders know that when a team is playing badly its members should look to themselves and not blame the ref. New Zealanders know that a fair trial has to have the accused person being able to defend himself or herself. New Zealanders also know that when a member of their family is killed they deserve support, because they will understandably be distraught. I think we should debate policy, and not attack people. I particularly believe that we should not attack people whose job means they cannot defend themselves, or whose job means they are not able to defend themselves. That is a very basic request that I propose to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMy next point is about the family members of someone who has been killed. I will never forget the smirk on the face of Mr English, as that young man\u2019s response to his family member\u2019s murder was used in this House. I will never forget the smirk on Mr English\u2019s face, as that man\u2019s name was brought into this House. It is not something that has happened in the past, and I certainly hope we can learn from it. A young man who was overcome by grief\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d99361c503d4b5da6ce90bf26c18efb\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are some things that you cannot allow to go past. That Minister\u2019s coming down to the Chamber and making up someone else\u2019s facial expressions in that way is outrageous, it is wrong, and she knows it. She is making it up. It is like saying that the Prime Minister was sitting there giggling at the same time. That was not the way that either the Leader of the Opposition or the Prime Minister were behaving. The Minister does herself a disservice by that sort of game.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6354aaf392b4df8bea940711dbcc5d7\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was here yesterday, and I certainly share the Minister\u2019s observations of what happened and the disgust at that behaviour. I have to ask myself though, as members of the House would ask themselves, how Mr Sowry, who sits alongside Mr English, would notice the expression on his face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022059ed1519dca4a97bde3ce5d678129c9\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have not raised this point of order today because this is the Wednesday afternoon debate, but all of the honourable Minister\u2019s speech was out of order. In fact, it was grossly out of order. Members cannot debate a point of order. If members want to raise a matter about a point of order it has to be done at the time. The Minister\u2019s whole debate is about a point of order. I object to it, because she referred to one of my members, who made a purely factual statement. She is now making up things that did not happen, with regard to Stephen Franks\u2019 contribution to the debate. In no way could it be said to be an attack on the Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI also want to say that if what the Minister is saying is correct, then there was a breach of the Standing Orders. Members cannot attack the Speaker. That has not been so ruled. Her whole speech is out of order, and it is creating disorder. Why does she not do something revolutionary and debate the Government\u2019s policies?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac404bcae8e844549c50b34382fedf9e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for raising that issue and for explaining it. Mr Prebble is absolutely right. Members may not refer in their speeches to points of order, or discussions during points of order. I was remiss in allowing that to continue. Members may not do that, and I ask the speaker not to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254c35354feb340e4a33ddf23c5d9e5a9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I remember the lessons the nuns taught us at school\u2014about standards, values, principles, respect for people, and telling the truth. I am around the same age as the current Leader of the Opposition, and we share the same religious upbringing. I am sure he heard those same lessons. It is obvious that he has let down his party. However, in my view he has now gone a lot further than that. He has let down the very basic values that our community believes in\u2014the values that, in obviously more politically convenient times, he espouses as his own. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EWith Winston Peters, frankly, not a lot surprises me. He is totally lacking in principle. He thrives on insinuation and innuendo, and has no regard at all for the damage he does to people outside this House. Stephen Franks is pretty similar. But for the so-called Leader of the Opposition, Bill English, not just to condone but to agree deliberately to be a key part in attacking public servants and attacking people who are unable to defend themselves, and to use the tragedy of a woman\u2019s murder to drag themselves out of the political mire, is something that I find very difficult to accept. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EI guess when one has no policy, no leadership, and no principles one does resort to this sort of behaviour. At 7 percent in the polls, and clearly falling, it is no wonder that Mr English is in the state he is in. He is a coup waiting to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002279ac18c742a845aab0f478cfce403172\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ac18c742a845aab0f478cfce403172\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It has to be market day because all the fishwives are in town\u2014and they are all in the debate. I want to express my great concern at events in this House this afternoon and yesterday. I want to express disappointment that we are no wiser now than we were yesterday about a non-prosecution for vandalism in the grounds of Parliament. The facts given to me by Danny Alkema, the person Labour members purport to defend, are as follows: firstly, he committed vandalism with his trail bike on 21 May on Parliament\u2019s lawns; secondly, he gave himself up to the police, confessed, and was being processed; thirdly, there was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd5b9c3f10fd432e91d01cd28f34deef\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With reference to your earlier ruling\u2014as raised in the point of order by the Hon Roger Sowry\u2014that I was not able to refer to the issues raised in the point of order yesterday, I wonder whether there is any relationship between that ruling and the fact that Winston Peters is quite clearly talking about exactly the same issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225076e30573a241318367a8b5cb583ce7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, he is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd7c2b5bd2414d3e8539d9bf23ca281a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Mr Peters has not once made reference to a point of order; he has said that he wants to know answers to some questions. Having heard from Government members all afternoon on this matter, I have to say that it is really very unparliamentary for them not to allow Mr Peters to be able, at least, to reply to the points that the Minister and her colleagues have made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022294e7a2c24504ae8b0c782fcd5d47669\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for raising that issue. It is a very difficult area, but I agree that the Rt Hon Winston Peters was not in any way referring to points of order in the same way\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e50656cd325546e3b1c1c694d55f0d99\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: It is exactly the same!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228193e8a7f8f4df1a06ce379368094ad\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No it was not. It was quite distinct, and I ask Mr Peters to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b1d91a67594216bd0e9ec28229fb5a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Danny Alkema\u2014the person Ruth Dyson purported to defend, as did the other female members of the Labour Party\u2014told me that he committed vandalism on 21 May, that he gave himself up to the police and confessed, that he was being processed by the police, and that there was, right then and there, contact between the police and the Speaker. Danny Alkema was told exactly that, there and then, by the police, and he was then told to be on his way with a warning. That all happened on the same day and within a space of 2 hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EToday we have been given a different version of events. This different version is as follows: firstly, there was no contact between the police and the Speaker\u2019s office; secondly, it can be inferred that the police misadvised Mr Alkema about the Speaker\u2019s views; and thirdly, the Speaker was involved not by phone but at a meeting later on. So we have two different versions of events, and it puts me in mind of that old saying: \u201COh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we set out to deceive.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI ask Mr Speaker whether he can tell me why Danny Alkema\u2019s police file was pulled from the Lower Hutt Police Station last night and brought back to the Wellington office? Can he tell me that? Why was that man\u2019s file pulled last night, after question time in the House, from the Lower Hutt Police Station and brought back to the Wellington station? Is that a case of political interference in matters of the police, or what? Who authorised it? I say that it is time to come clean. What role did the Minister of Police have in that occurrence last night?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWas Inspector Marty Grenfell involved\u2014yes or no? He was at the meeting on 21 May and he was there at all relevant points of time when Danny Alkema was told that the Speaker\u2019s office had been in contact. After question time yesterday and through last night, who spent the hours working on damage control to be ready for today\u2019s question time? The two versions just do not agree. The difference should be cleared up now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe want the police records on this matter tabled in this House. The Speaker gave us an assurance yesterday that this matter would be decided by the House. Instead, we were swamped by procedural issues, generalised facts, and a veneer of humanitarian behaviour duplicated in Labour members\u2019 speeches today. They claim their actions\u2014[Interruption] Yes, they originate from their desire to be humanitarian. Danny Alkema is my informant. He wants this action. He wants to know what happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224102ad0414f84bc4b749401c81ee918c\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am listening with interest to the member\u2019s speech, but I need your assistance. It seems to me that he is, indeed, referring to a matter that was the subject of earlier points of order both yesterday and today and is seeking to prosecute the matter of the Speaker\u2019s judgment\u2014the judgment of the Chair\u2014in a way that calls into disrepute, in my view, the statements made by the Speaker earlier today, and he even outlined a process that any member of this House can take should they wish to question the judgment of the Speaker\u2019s Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc986b6e12ac4a3cacb46704f9dbf198\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5846e56292b4f9aac7c61b71f92fd6d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The reality is that I am talking about Danny Alkema\u2019s files. I am talking about them being pulled last night. None of that has been a matter of a point of order, today or yesterday. That member knows that full well, and then he says that he wants your help. Well, frankly, he is incapable of using it. Can I get back to the debate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b44a723495814694a52f476d222dc3a3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Members know that they must not challenge any Speaker\u2019s explanation or ruling. There is a proper course by which they can do that, and members are all aware of it. The Rt Hon Winston Peters was in no way referring to points of order, in my view. He was simply expanding on an issue that he has raised before. He was getting close, perhaps, to criticising or objecting to Speaker\u2019s decisions, but I do not think he quite got there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b402c358494c3fa507bc953b420a8e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a coincidence? Labour members came to the House today with every speaker pleading the correctness of the Speaker\u2019s decision, where humanitarian actions and Danny Alkema were concerned. Now can that be a coincidence? Is this pure serendipity? Is this sort of accidental, or what? After the Speaker\u2019s statement, I think that it is all there. He claims a different time and different events, and makes no acknowledgment of a direct phone call. We want the police log of the telephone accounts in respect of that day. We want the telephone account log. We want the police log of that interview with Danny Alkema. That is what we want. We do not want it somewhere else\u2014some other place in the country\u2014we want it on the floor of this Parliament. Let me tell that member who claims to be the Minister of Defence that we will not rest until we get it\u2014because the facts do not support one thing I have heard today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022986925b4fd2b4841b10dd39cbe4ff651\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022986925b4fd2b4841b10dd39cbe4ff651\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E There is an underlying attribute that bonds most Kiwis\u2014the principle of fairness, of giving a bloke a fair go. Out in the heartland of New Zealand if someone rorts this attribute Kiwis can sense it, smell it, and taste it. Well, over the last 3 weeks it has been rorted all right. Opposition members, led by Messrs English, Sowry, Smith, Peters, and Franks have rorted it. They have breached the sacred bond with all New Zealanders\u2014and this is how it works. The Government has no problem with scrutiny, no problem with debate, and no problem with criticism, but the Speaker, Jonathan Hunt, day in and day out, has had not only his rulings challenged but his essence and mana\u2014and that is a fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a91aeb72475246da938d2645a22b6815\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member must not bring the Speaker into the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c4645e3ba6e45eea8b947308ee76df3\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: There is one other point that I wanted to make about that. When one challenges and questions people\u2019s integrity and credibility, when one challenges their essence and their mana, that is not fair, because those people have their hands tied behind their back and they are sitting on the ground. But people like the member for Tauranga jump in off the fence. That member waited for 2 weeks, had his finger in the air, listened to Radio Pacific, had a think about it, then jumped off the fence and put the boot in. That is what he did. That is how low and crass the leader of New Zealand First is. Those party members in the House with him right now are a bunch of bunnies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI grew up in west Auckland under the shadow of that great bloke\u2014the list MP for my area, Jonathan Hunt. He might not be perfect, but one thing he has always exhibited, day in and day out and when I was a young kid growing up, is that he has always been straight, always been honest, always had integrity, and always had credibility. Then chumps come into this House and question that. It is a disgrace. It is outrageous! For 2 weeks Winston Peters sat on the fence and waited for a bloke to be down, and then he jumped in. That is the measure of it. That is the crass, low measure of the member for Tauranga.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EEnough of the member for Tauranga, anyway, and the M\u0101ori boys he has with him, because no one knows who they are. They never go out to the constituencies and they never do anything. They just sit on the fence. They will not contest the M\u0101ori seats, but all of a sudden they have some M\u0101ori seats. They do not have any policy, or anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI will conclude by speaking of one other matter, and that is the political career of the legend\u2014in his own mind\u2014from the ACT party, Stephen Franks. I had cause to look at his website. He often describes himself as a \u201Cformer top lawyer\u201D. We know all about the \u201Cformer\u201D, but I do not know about the \u201Ctop\u201D. Where are his fingerprints on any legal treatise? Where are his fingerprints on any commercial case of any substance in this country? Where are they? [Interruption] They are not. I will tell members where they are, though. This is what he says: \u201CIt hasn\u2019t been thought yet\u201D\u2014[Interruption] Unlike the people on the other side of the House, we do not take pecuniary gain, like Richard Prebble. I am not paid by external agents to be here, as Richard Prebble is. I am here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257bdac6c32df4578ad023e276f89ca79\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d5e87dbaf0d41a188c7c9404326c5e5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I think I can anticipate the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b274e83c8a04a1991a0952d6240c4a2\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a grossly disorderly accusation to put across the House that a member is being paid by external agents to be in the House. I demand that the matter be withdrawn and apologised for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb2ef379aa2d483a91f7b646032e596c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Mr Prebble. Mr Tamihere\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229cc49915244d4e4e8a82c0e96f58660c\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, especially to the honourable Richard Prebble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI have a statement from Mr Franks\u2019 latest speech, in which he says: \u201CA chummy little political elite has controlled our justice system for 20 years. I know, because I was one.\u201D His record makes it clear that he was at the centre of it. He goes on to say: \u201CThey have given much of the dirty work to the judges.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258dc9e97e11a4d7bbca9a9f45922cc09\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was a completely false accusation. I did not make those statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d6e5f2829664a95be390c47f6f06c4a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It is a matter for debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a258c2625fe74631aa299bd8bdc85c40\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. He is misleading the House, and deliberately so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd63d21bed2c417e84fcd7ac55a5ff41\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a debate where the ACT party has had its contribution. For a Minister to claim to the House that he is quoting from a member, when he is not, is pretty close to a breach of privilege. He should be warned he should not be saying to the House that a member made a statement, if he cannot authenticate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c1c2a180264421bbc9fe61bb0c64cc\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It seems to be a recurring theme. If the member believes there has been a breach of privilege, proper procedures are laid down and they are not by way of point of order. The member concerned should lay a breach of privilege claim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d3ecd0a7a049688537512476d1ba22\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. As a matter of concern, during the last two points of orders taken by Stephen Franks and Richard Prebble, John Tamihere remained on his feet. Normally, the Speaker calls a person, recognises him or her on a point of order, and the person who may have had his or her speech interrupted sits down. It is very disorderly when the Speaker does not rise giving the point of order, and when the person who has the call stays on his or her feet and keeps interrupting the point of order. That has just happened twice in a row, and it will be very disorderly if you permit that to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f6af24f4e3b4a8093d37427ab7da9d0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising those issues. I hope the Minister will take note of the concerns those members have. During points of order there is to be no talk, no interjections, and no one standing up, except the person talking to the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1e89b05b3cf40f7835e9dce375d1845\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Between 1991 and 1995 Mr Stephen Franks was lucky enough, through political patronage, to achieve a number of appointments to Government committees. By his own acknowledgment, he oversaw the legal restructuring of a number of matters, from Crown health enterprises through to the Electricity Industry Reform Act. If I were worth my salt, there would have to be an action in negligence for the type of advice that organisations got from that bloke. Under no circumstances would anyone in his or her right mind acknowledge that advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c4a17f6e824d9995f91fa253ff43a7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call the next member, some concern was raised during the last member\u2019s speech about references to the Speaker. I did not take them as references, in the context of what we had been talking about. I see no harm in members\u2019 saying something good about the Speaker and praising him, and that is what the member was doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022 data-id=\u002209128a96909b4292a899d1b8065532d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209128a96909b4292a899d1b8065532d7\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Everywhere I go in New Zealand these days I am asked the same question: \u201CWhy is the Labour Government pigheadedly ignoring public opinion on such a significant issue as the lifting of the moratorium\u2014an issue that will shape the destiny of New Zealand for the next few decades, and perhaps for ever\u2014and dismissing the risks that lifting it will pose to the future of our nation, in such a cavalier way?\u201D. Why is the party that ushered in a nuclear-free New Zealand, and helped us forge an independent identity in the world, taking us down a path where we will lose for ever our GE-free status and reputation as a source of clean, pure products? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EThat was the theme of the rally held outside Parliament yesterday. One speaker, Jim Kebble, a former New Zealand Labour Council member, puzzled out loud about why the Government was ignoring the wishes of the vast majority of people by lifting the moratorium. Clearly, it was not doing so for trade reasons, because there are no market or trading opportunities for any GE crops. Nor is it doing so to preserve our environment. If cross-contamination in the vast prairies of Canada cannot be avoided, there is no way we will avoid it here. He said that if the Government was going to go against the wishes of the vast majority of New Zealanders on such a significant issue, and risk our trade, our environment, and our future in the process, there would need to be some clearly articulated principle for doing so. However, the question is: what is the principle? And, if there is a principle here, why have the people of New Zealand never been told what it is? If the Government is not making a stand on a matter of principle, what is the reason for its stand? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EMost people who puzzle over the Government\u2019s motives in lifting the moratorium eventually conclude that there can be only one explanation, and that is pressure from the American Government and various multinational corporations. If we cast our mind back to the highly publicised time when Helen Clark met George Bush in the White House, we can speculate that George Bush said to Helen Clark something to the effect: \u201CIf you want a free-trade deal with us, you must lift the moratorium, or you can kiss goodbye to a free-trade deal.\u201D If that is the explanation, and there seems to be no other one, the Government is risking our export markets, our environment, and our independence, to appease a foreign power. I believe that this underlying threat to our sovereignty is the reason, I suspect, that the disquiet and concern about lifting the moratorium has spread to the Labour Party rank and file. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EI issue a plea to the Labour Government not to repeat the mistakes of the past, not to ignore the views of the people it was elected to represent, or indeed, its own members, and not to put the interests of a foreign power and a handful of multinational corporations ahead of the interests of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EFinally, it is extraordinary that in the face of nationwide concern and disquiet about the lifting of the moratorium all our Prime Minister has done is attack Green co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons. Today, three Ministers in this debate went on and on about how we should not attack people, their mana, or their credibility\u2014the previous speaker said that\u2014and that we should play the ball and not the person. Why then does their Prime Minister not heed her advice? Why has she \u201Cplayed the ball\u201D, as the previous speaker said, rather than the game? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003EPersonality attacks like this are always the resort of those who have no arguments to muster to defend their stance. It is curious that we have had a cowering silence from Labour Party members about the moratorium, and have heard no arguments why they are in favour of it. We have heard none. Instead, we have heard personal attacks from the Prime Minister, with no attempt to debate the issues or answer the questions that New Zealanders around the country are asking. Far from cowering in the face of these attacks, I can assure the House that the Green Party sees them as an admission of defeat by the Government. We challenge the Labour Party rank and file, the Labour members here today, and the Labour Ministers to come up with some argument, some explanation, some reason, or some matter of principle, as to why they are defying public opinion in this way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u002254bae6b6bdd24f29b305f50941eae888\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254bae6b6bdd24f29b305f50941eae888\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E In reply to my friend from the Green Party as to why there has been no discussion on policy recently about the lifting of the GM moratorium, I say that she should read the royal commission report on genetic modification. When members ask why the Government is ignoring the wishes of so many people, I say let them read the royal commission report. When a political party becomes a pressure group it loses its credibility. The more it becomes a pressure group, the more sidelined it becomes in the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhat is scandalous about what we have heard in Parliament in the last 7 days is the diatribe delivered in the House last Wednesday by ACT member Stephen Franks. What is scandalous is that he was either deliberately misquoting the law to score a shabby political point against a sitting-duck target, or the ACT party\u2019s so-called justice spokesman is unable to read the law. For example, there is no comparison between the judgment of the Chief Justice in the foreshore case and the position of Lord Hoffman 10 years ago in the House of Lords in the Pinochet case. The Chief Justice was one of five unanimous judges, and you have not given one reason as to why her judgment was faulty. In denigrating the Chief Justice you denigrate the President of the Court of Appeal, Justice Gault, and you denigrate senior justices of the Court of Appeal without a skerrick of argument. However, in the Pinochet case, Lord Hoffman was one of three in a majority out of five.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1109f4b95f0438ba415c61865919170\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are being called into this debate more often than is usually attributable just to inexperience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c98dfffb1c1c4ccfb24b62497710c579\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I say that I may be inexperienced but I am not incompetent in law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThe point of the Pinochet case is that Lord Hoffman had connections that were obscure and not known to the other side. The Chief Justice in this country is well known for advocacy. The lawyers acting for the Marlborough Sounds parties in the foreshore case know of her history, and not one of them took objection to her sitting on the case. The Crown lawyers know of the Chief Justice\u2019s advocacy, and not one of them took objection to the case. The ACT spokesman Stephen Franks has known for years of the Chief Justice\u2019s advocacy, and it took him 14 months to consider that there may be bias. One must ask why that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThere is a legal term called \u201Cchamperty\u201D. Champerty is when a party tries to influence court proceedings for some purpose beneficial to themselves. What a coincidence. When this great arguer of legal principle in the select committee loses arguments about the Supreme Court Bill, he goes public with an attack on the Chief Justice on the same day the bill is released. He does not address the issues by attacking her judgment, or by recognising that the principles behind her judgment were a recognition of the international law of indigenous people when they are subject to settlement by consent\u2014nothing radical like that. No, instead he comes out and links it to the Supreme Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EWhat is his motive? It is surely to encourage the lawyers for the Marlborough Sounds case and put public pressure on them to take the case to the Privy Council, thereby raising for the first time the question of bias, which in the public mind has now been set at large. The only purpose for that can be to slow down the Supreme Court Bill and achieve by a side wind what that brilliant legal mind could not achieve by his advocacy at the select committee. Stephen Franks ignored the experience of senior judges who explained matters in detail to him, in response to his, I must say, rather timid questioning of the leaders of the bar\u2014the leaders of the judiciary. Not once did he confront Lord Cooke. Not once did he tackle Sir Thomas Eichelbaum. Instead we had timid questions and reminders of when he used to work at Chapman Tripp, as they may have also. We had no lion\u2019s roaring at the select committee, we had meek and mild \u201Ccount me in too, sir\u201D questioning. But, of course, his arguments failed because of lack of logic, force, and support, which is reflected in the 5 percent support that his party has. It is a nice coincidence with the support given to the Leader of the Opposition, which is about 7 percent. He has personally attacked the judiciary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003EThat tells us not just about the lack of ability of that self-described legal leader to read case law, but it also tells us another thing. It tells us that the Leader of the Opposition has forsaken his responsibility to stand up as a Queen\u2019s representative. Mr Bill English, by his silence in this House, has condoned the attack on the Chief Justice and the attack on our Court of Appeal, and he has undermined in the public mind confidence in our judiciary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002275fec975ea504ed08c220d9eee71b4bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275fec975ea504ed08c220d9eee71b4bb\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E We see in the general debate today a significant shift in the Government\u2019s position, and scatological speeches from Government members. We also see a sea change in public attitudes towards the Government, and the opinion polls are responding with diminished support for the Government. That is little wonder because pragmatism has yielded to principled decision-making, and spin is triumphing over substance. I am reminded of the comments made by the Rt Hon Helen Clark at an election campaign rally in November 1999. She said: \u201CIf we elect Labour to Government, then my commitment is that we will deliver a Government people can trust. It will be open; it will be accountable.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo let us look at the record of this Government in year 4, at the outset. It was a time when new partnerships were to be forged, so let us look at those so-called partnerships. The partnership with local government is in tatters. The Local Government Act, with its much-vaunted claims of the power of general competence, was said to promise increased powers for local government. In fact, those powers have been stripped away by consultation and accountability obligations that more closely circumscribe local government action. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe partnership with business has collapsed. It was a partnership built on rhetoric by the Government and no substance. It has been unmasked by the failure of the Government to commit to the outcomes of the Knowledge Wave conferences; of broken promises not to raise taxes; by abandonment of the economic growth goals. The partnership with M\u0101ori is in serious trouble. Let us leave aside the conundrum as to who is a M\u0101ori and how it is possible to have partnerships with a particular ethnic group. The Government continues to dither on the resolution of the problem of the foreshore and the seabed. We see in vivid action, do we not, the consultation hui that flounder with point-blank rejection of the Government\u2019s proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI would also say that our relationships around the world are under significant stress. The collapse of the discussions at Cancun has seen the United States move away from world trade solutions to bilateral agreements, and New Zealand is very poorly placed, as a result of foolish attacks by the Prime Minister on the United States, to stand any real chance in the queue for preference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E So what about our relationships with Asia, and particularly China? They have been damaged by failed marketing attempts by the Government in respect of English language teaching. That is small wonder, really, when we have Chinese teachers teaching Chinese students English and we also have, in Auckland, Indian teachers teaching Chinese students English. It is a very significant event in Auckland, because 20 percent of the tenancy in the Auckland central business district is occupied by language schools. In China there is media coverage on New Zealand that is wholly adverse to our interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo the Government fiddles, in the tradition, I would suggest, of the Roman emperor Nero, while New Zealand burns. But we also see a display of sickening double standards. We see for the first time a direct challenge to the independence of the police authorities in recent events that have occurred in this House. It is wholly unacceptable for the police to enter Parliament to interrogate an MP. We have an expectation\u2014we in National, we in Opposition\u2014that the Government will take a strong stand in respect of those issues that touch the Speaker\u2019s office and the integrity of that office. They are issues that are not going to go away. We see an inconstancy in police position-taking, which is truly worrying. It is simply an incomprehensible outcome that there should be one standard for Mr Tizard and another standard for Mr Ardern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002237f3667b92e8423fbc32317394ad9815\u0022\u003EChristchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002266ca5dc5df4a459680d9d96052440d46\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u00226f9c29f12fa54ce9bfda780a752eae3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f9c29f12fa54ce9bfda780a752eae3f\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill to proceed directly to its third reading following its being read a second time, and for there to be no debate on the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d10059e8ac7f46cfa55c3172a8b5989b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d10059e8ac7f46cfa55c3172a8b5989b\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Our understanding is that there will be a 2-hour debate. If we look on the Order Paper today, we see that the bill is set down for twelve 10-minute speeches, which is 2 hours. We are comfortable to have\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2646b00081f4a83bd87458a504d20ab\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c52e86e97b504bdcbfcc5ca88fc7c942\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest that the senior Government whip should not interrupt when I am speaking. I am making a point here; I am trying to help the House. We are quite comfortable about having a second reading, not having a Committee stage, then going straight to a third reading without any debate, if we can ensure that we actually get more than the three speeches that we would normally be allocated. Of course, if we skip the Committee stage and the third reading, then we will have only three 10-minute speeches. We would like the opportunity to have, at least, the six 10-minute speeches that we would have if there were a second reading and a third reading. We are looking to help the House. I am asking for your consideration on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022290284f86a29471aae8ca5c85696ea8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022290284f86a29471aae8ca5c85696ea8e\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The problem we have here is that we had a discussion at the Business Committee yesterday\u2014I cannot remember whether the member was there, but certainly Mr Brownlee was\u2014and we had an agreement for twelve 10-minute speeches, with no variation. One party, United Future, had some uncertainty about its position, and its members were going to let it be known at this point if they opposed this particular leave being taken. We had a clear understanding. There were no fish hooks and no \u201Cyes but maybes\u201D. I simply ask members to reflect that we need the Business Committee process to be a good-faith process and to work, and we need people to stick to what they say there for this House to run, for all our sakes. I ask members not to try now to relitigate something about which the Business Committee reached a clear understanding yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00228a532297ad8f421b8045ffe3c0d058fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228a532297ad8f421b8045ffe3c0d058fc\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I was at the Business Committee, and I am not sure that the minutes would indicate that the situation was as clear as the Acting Leader of the House is proposing was the case. Certainly, our taking the bill through all stages today was agreed to. There was discussion about whether we needed to have the Committee stage, given that most of us at the Business Committee understood that no amendments would be moved, because quite a bit of work has been done by Tim Barnett, myself, and other members in the Canterbury district to ensure that various people who had concerns about aspects of the bill have had those concerns allayed, at least to the point where they are comfortable for it to rest with the resource management process, as opposed to the bill itself. The United Future representative on the Business Committee, Mr Copeland, raised the possibility that his party might not be able to agree to that arrangement. Mr Speaker then said that, very well, we will leave it at that, that the person moving the motion, or responsible for the bill, can seek leave at the start of the proceedings, and if leave is granted, then so be it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI suggest to the Labour Party members that a lot of work has been done by a lot of people behind the scenes on this particular bill. The Robert McDougall Art Gallery, the Canterbury Museum, the boulevard, and indeed, the whole arts precinct, are things that most of us from Christchurch are very, very proud of. To be restricted to simply three speeches of 10 minutes does limit the opportunity that local members have to comment about something that is important in their local area. I do not think it is unreasonable, given that the House is going to save a considerable amount of members\u2019 day time by not having the Committee stage\u2014it is a four-part bill; it could have gone on for some 4 hours, perhaps\u2014that we simply ask for some indication that if we want to put up six speakers, the Government will not oppose that idea. Government members themselves, of course, can take as much or as little of the time allocated to them as they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229942c286c5f54a338e11400b8ac2cdf1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am unable to assist either side or any parties on this matter. The leave is sought simply to have a second reading, full stop. Members are all aware of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022120ae558f4904f3da6a900598f72628e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022120ae558f4904f3da6a900598f72628e\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The point that my colleague Mr Brownlee has just made is that our Christchurch members are actually in the House, and they all want to speak on this bill. It is significant for that region. Also, if we were to have the normal procedure for debates, and the normal schedule for the calling of the parties, National would be entitled to only three speeches of 10 minutes. Because we are, in one debate, covering the Committee stage and the third reading, I am seeking that our members from Christchurch be given that opportunity to take the allotted times of those parties whose members do not speak. We would still get through the bill within 2 hours, which is actually what is on the Order Paper\u2014twelve 10-minute speeches, which is 2 hours. It is our view that we would be well within that time. What I am seeking is that our Christchurch speakers be allowed to have a 10-minute speech each. I seek leave on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002250e586c798d04325a21c01e0ac386b11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250e586c798d04325a21c01e0ac386b11\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I point out to the member again that there is a process called the Business Committee. It has to work. People have to act in good faith in that process. There are mechanisms that have been used many times. We would have no objection if members on that side of the House wanted to split their speaking slots, for instance, by arrangement with the Chair. We would have no objection to that. The member says his party has three 10-minute speeches; splitting them would allow six 5-minute slots, and we would have no objection to that, at all. But we had a clear set of discussions yesterday. It is important that we actually do stick to what we arrange. Mr Brownlee has as good as acknowledged that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c353045ff3074ddbb3561eaba8742450\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I have not acknowledged that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f3843a35ea4e70915ee74de53f81ef\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I would have hoped the member would. I think, Mr Assistant Speaker, that you should put the leave, that we should get on with the debate, and that you should give the call\u2014which is your responsibility\u2014as you will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00226b69e9d878ed45968dc83755a513dfa6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b69e9d878ed45968dc83755a513dfa6\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Business Committee decisions are upheld only if leave is not opposed when the decisions are put in the House. I want to make clear again that the minutes of the meeting will show that no clear position was reached on this. We are saying, quite simply, that if we can get six 10-minute speeches, which is not unreasonable, the House will save itself a 4-hour Committee stage. If we do not get that, then, clearly, we will have perhaps an hour and a half or so for the second reading today, we will have the Committee stage next Wednesday, and maybe by Christmas this bill will get past its third reading. We would like to facilitate it being passed through all stages today. Given that we are giving up a considerable amount of time by not having the Committee stage, and are disclaiming our third reading time, that is not unreasonable. For the House to make progress on this, it would not be unreasonable for other parties to agree to what we want.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022960c98b5417a4cf3a32bd8dca1664219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022960c98b5417a4cf3a32bd8dca1664219\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure everyone is aware of what is at stake here. There is only one decision the Speaker can make, and that is to deal with the leave that has been sought. I am sure both sides know what will happen if it goes one way or the other. Leave has been sought by Tim Barnett.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022636d17df27ba4e16826dff7c51837ab9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022636d17df27ba4e16826dff7c51837ab9\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. National is happy to facilitate our getting the bill through within 2 hours, but before Mr Tim Barnett\u2019s leave is put to the House\u2014and both Gerry Brownlee and I have made this point\u2014I ask whether there will be an opportunity for the National members from Christchurch, who are here in the House, to speak. If we were to have only one debate, the second reading, we would be entitled to only three speeches. What we ask is that we have six speeches within the time frame. That is what we are asking for\u2014it is very simple, very clear\u2014and we are happy to facilitate getting this bill through within 2 hours. I seek leave\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1cc16ec2f7940098f213357f26b36d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1cc16ec2f7940098f213357f26b36d1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The Chair will be in charge of taking the calls and I am sure the Chair will take all views into account. Leave has been sought by Tim Barnett. Is there any objection to that course being followed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00220afa928ad2a2409dadef9e16425e3d42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220afa928ad2a2409dadef9e16425e3d42\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think members want to be clear about what is being sought. Could Mr Tim Barnett make it clear; we have been debating it for so long that we are unsure now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u00226d6f28cf4e5b444c91f2431cc7899dda\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d6f28cf4e5b444c91f2431cc7899dda\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill to proceed directly to its third reading following it being read a second time, and for there to be no debate on the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00225732983c3fa94bec9b832594e43061d8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225732983c3fa94bec9b832594e43061d8\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought. If there is no objection, there will be a second reading only, of up to 2 hours, with the various procedural motions. [Interruption] There is no third reading. [Interruption] Well, there is a third reading but there is no debate on it. The only speaking opportunities will be during the, possibly, 2-hour second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022004083fdd5a04ce298b694219cca94ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022004083fdd5a04ce298b694219cca94ab\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to be very clear that, because there will be only one debate, according to the schedule of speakers National will be entitled to only three speakers. We are sacrificing speeches on the Committee stage\u2014we are taking that out of the equation\u2014and we are sacrificing speeches on the third reading, where, in normal circumstances, we would be entitled to another three speakers. I am asking that, if we have just one debate, the National members from Christchurch who are here in the House\u2014and there are more than three\u2014each be entitled to speak. If that were the case, and we work within the 2-hour period, then we would be happy to reconsider, but at the moment we will have to vote against the leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022d08257d1515f4552ba61852331f5af09\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d08257d1515f4552ba61852331f5af09\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I will have one more go. What has been put on the Table is consistent with all the discussion we had yesterday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d563a037e364bdfbcc8b9c5ae0a8112\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No, it\u2019s not. That\u2019s a misrepresentation. Let\u2019s put the minutes on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296b89cc616b94481a7c5a743fc4f2aa2\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member should not speak unless he has the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f3433c55d82456f9f60a6717ba8440a\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: It is consistent with the discussions we had yesterday, which resolved that in the end, unless United Future came back, there would be a motion that delivered up a single debate of twelve 10-minute speeches. Whether it was a second or third reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285289a2cc76c4705a61382fa287f6916\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: 2 hours.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a53540736a94ba59da70e3c54ba844d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: It was twelve 10-minute speeches. Come on, Mr Brownlee! What I am saying to members is that was what we discussed, and that is what is being put. If members want to discuss some other things after the leave has been put, they may do so, but that agreement was reached because the members who care about the bill wanted to facilitate it. If those members no longer want to do that, they will probably not allow Mr Tim Barnett\u2019s request to proceed. It is not of any consequence one way or the other to the Government, per se\u2014it is not a Government bill. It was simply an arrangement that the House Business Committee tried to facilitate, to assist members who wanted to progress the bill. That is what Mr Tim Barnett is trying to do. I suggest that we now simply allow members to decide whether the debate takes place now or over 2 or 3 weeks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3d7a392c66b4ac1a2a5ecc9a3b9a7f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3d7a392c66b4ac1a2a5ecc9a3b9a7f6\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I shall attempt to be of some assistance. It seems to me that we are negotiating, through points of order, the terms of what was or was not agreed, and thereby are consuming valuable time on members\u2019 day. It would be my hope that the Government could progress to the next item of business on the Order Paper, whilst the whips retired to a convenient place to discuss what they might or might not wish to do. They would then come back to seek leave of the House. I will be guided by the Chair, but if it were helpful, I would be prepared to move that the Government proceed to the next item on the agenda while the whips retire to discuss this issue. At the end of the day, a member\u2019s bill in the name of Steve Chadwick is still waiting to be debated, and we get these opportunities only every second week, as we know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6ebd49e719641d9a3beeea0e30f354e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6ebd49e719641d9a3beeea0e30f354e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: We are on a matter of leave, Mr Ron Mark, and, in any case, you are free to seek leave for any proposition you might have. We have had a seeking of leave. Everyone is clear on what will happen. I think it is a matter of goodwill. There is no reason, for instance, that one side cannot have 12 speeches in a row\u2014none at all. It is a matter of goodwill\u2014though it may not happen. Leave has been sought. Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224c96e0cf0e184496a91936e7962e147e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c96e0cf0e184496a91936e7962e147e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E There is a desire to see this bill passed through all stages today. The bill is holding up a certain amount of development of facilities and one or two other things associated with it. I am aware that people in Christchurch want the bill passed fairly quickly. Accordingly, I seek leave for the debate on this matter to be a single debate, with the third reading being at the end of it\u2014with no debate and going straight to a vote\u2014and with the debate ending either after 2 hours or after the National Party has had six speaking opportunities of 10 minutes each. It is not unreasonable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022b32ca9b7af4b4904b7bdec191422c0f3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b32ca9b7af4b4904b7bdec191422c0f3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I think what is being asked for is fairly clear. Leave has been sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6f38dcf6479417eb1d764e4b10520df\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b746824776454011b829d6357fdfc317\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b746824776454011b829d6357fdfc317\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill be now read a second time. This is a local bill sponsored by my local city council. Parliament\u2019s Local Government and Environment Committee has consulted on and considered this bill. It has produced amendments that may be detailed but also, I believe, are important in creating a smooth way forward for what I regard as a necessary but finely balanced piece of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EFirst, for the House, I would like to set the scene. The former Robert McDougall Art Gallery sits adjacent to the Canterbury Museum and opens on to the Botanic Gardens. Its core structure was funded by Robert E McDougall, and it is located on land freed by the Lands Disposal and Public Bodies Empowering Act 1925. It opened in 1932, and served the people of Christchurch for 70 years until it was replaced by the city\u2019s shining new art gallery. That move to new premises was to the advantage of the people of the city and the promotion of the arts, and gave Christchurch a very pleasant problem: what to do with a superbly sited category I historic building? Clearly, the answer has to be something sustainable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EFate has intervened favourably. There is a fully planned and largely funded renovation and expansion of the Canterbury Museum. That superb collection enjoys massive public support; indeed, its visitor figures are the highest for any museum in New Zealand apart from Te Papa. Space there is at a premium. Options for expansion within the profile of that category I historic building\u2014the museum\u2014are very limited. Expansion into the old art gallery space is a natural development and in the public interest. The Christchurch City Council conducted lengthy consultation on the appropriate use of the old art gallery building, including 2 days of public hearings in May 2002. The bill that went through its first reading in this House was a result of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the Local Government and Environment Committee for the work it did on this bill. It visited my electorate to consult on it, and I regard that as a superb expression of the accessibility of this Parliament. During its visit it went to the site and also heard 10 submissions. I want to credit the energy and determination of the submitters on this bill, notably Janet Begg and Anne Dingwall, who are motivated by a passionate love for their city and for the former art gallery. They have monitored this development at every stage. Their interventions have improved the bill, and their continued close interest in the project will ensure a high level of accountability. I also want to thank the Christchurch City Council, particularly its solicitor Peter Mitchell, for the energy and resources it has put into interacting with the public and their concerns. The issues raised in submissions were not simple ones, and discussions have continued, involving both Gerry Brownlee\u2014who has been helpful in this matter\u2014and myself, since the select committee reported back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThere are six core concerns relating to the bill. The first concern is that the gallery should properly be described as a public gallery. That is relevant; it fits the values and intent of the proposed lessees, and it has my strong support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003ESecond, clause 6(1) of the bill allowed the gallery building to be used for purposes ancillary to the display of arts and crafts. The select committee replaced the word \u201Cpurposes\u201D with \u201Cactivities\u201D, which I believe is clearer. The fear of some local submitters was that the gallery building might be used for unsuitable commercial operations, but I think that fear is not well placed. Contemporary successful museums and galleries attract people through their range of services. The removal of the phrase \u201Cancillary purposes\u201D\u2014or \u201Cancillary activities\u201D\u2014would place such mainstream uses of space as storage or cafes under threat, which would clearly be ludicrous. Specific concerns about detailed plans are best left to the local resource management process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EThird, clause 8 concerned the fact that the land and property are not subject to tax, and it has properly been deleted as it was unnecessary. Fourth, the word \u201CVesting\u201D has been deleted from the title of the bill as being unnecessary and, indeed, misleading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EFifth, there has been extensive debate concerning future use of the building and the land. Many submitters are fearful that the land on which the gallery stands will one day be subsumed into the museum, or that the building will cease to be used for arts and crafts. I am convinced that, if that were to happen, Parliament would need to approve it, using just such a process as we have today. That is an appropriate guarantee and protection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EFinally, some people have argued that the lease to the museum should be for less than 50 years. I do not believe that such a change is necessary. The best way to ensure public use and appreciation of this treasure of Christchurch is to give it security and sustainability. A close relationship with the museum is the best guarantee of that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EI recommend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022edb22a7a64754691a1bcee50ad21de4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edb22a7a64754691a1bcee50ad21de4a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure that the motion will be agreed to. I want to speak about the background to the bill, because, in many ways, this could best be described as a bill that deals with the transition from the way that things were done some 78 years ago to the way that things are done in today\u2019s world. I would like to say to the many people who have expressed concerns about the future of the Robert McDougall Gallery that this bill most certainly does move to protect the gallery\u2019s longer-term interests. In his speech Tim Barnett mentioned Janet Begg and Anne Dingwall. Those two people have put a great deal of time into this matter, ably assisted by Hamish Douche, and, as Tim Barnett has said, their contribution has made the bill even more resolute. It has also given us a lot of opportunities to consider just what various clauses in the bill effectively mean. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe first point I make is that this gallery is a very grand building. As Tim Barnett said, it was built in 1925. It sits right at the back end of the museum, and faces out on to the beautiful botanic gardens in Christchurch. The land was annexed from the botanic gardens in order for the Robert McDougall Gallery to be built in the first place. When the gallery was gifted to the city its purpose was to be a place of display for the arts and crafts that Christchurch City owned at that time. Over the years, that collection has grown to be a very substantial one, and it is now housed further down the road in the new Christchurch Art Gallery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI ask people to picture this. The botanic gardens are to the south-east of the city, the Robert McDougall Gallery is on the adjacent land, and the museum is immediately behind that. It is then about a kilometre up the boulevard to the city cathedral in Cathedral Square, and, along the way, on the right, there is the Arts Centre of Christchurch\u2014formerly the Canterbury University site\u2014and on the left, just a bit further down the road, there is the brand new art gallery, which is a splendid building. Of course, one can also ride the tram all the way across the Avon River to Otautahi, the former provincial library, which has now been converted into a meeting place for people in the city, and then into the square itself. What is slowly happening in that area is that most of the arts per se are relocating, and one can see an arts precinct developing there, which I think will be good not only for Christchurch but for the Southern Hemisphere. So in many ways protecting this building, by making it part of the museum and giving the Canterbury Museum a very long lease over it, is very positive for the city. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns that the group initially raised with the Local Government and Environment Committee, and subsequently with other members, was the issue of the encroachment of food service arrangements into the footprint of the old McDougall building itself. That is an issue that cannot really be dealt with in the bill, and, as the previous speaker said, it is best left to the resource management process. But because the people who are involved do have sensitivities about the use of the building, a revised resource consent plan will be in front of the city council as soon as this bill is passed. It will see a very small amount of the McDougall building used only for seating, and not for the servicing or food preparation associated with cafeteria-type operations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere was also worry about the provision in the bill that states that the purpose of the gallery is for the public display of art, decorative arts and crafts, and ancillary activities. The basement of the McDougall building is set up as an area in which artworks can be conserved and repaired, allowing for programmes for the restoration of pieces of some merit. That would be defined as an ancillary purpose. If the bill were to exclude ancillary purposes, that could not progress. More than that, the McDougall building is also occasionally used by the Symphony Orchestra for very exclusive concerts. I know chamber music concerts are held there, and it is very appropriate for that to occur. Her Majesty the Queen used the building briefly to freshen up in 1990 before a reception on the Archery Lawn, which is immediately below the McDougall building in the botanic gardens. All those activities would have been prevented, as well, had ancillary activities not been allowed. The group understood eventually that it is the resource management process that will manage the activity that goes on in that building. The legislation very strongly links the ancillary activities to the display of art, decorative arts, and crafts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other issue was a suggestion that, should the building no longer be used for those purposes, it would revert to the botanic gardens. The difficulty with that, of course, is that the building itself is registered as a category I building by the Historic Places Trust and cannot be pulled down. Secondly, if the museum were to relinquish the lease, the Christchurch City Council would become the owner, and the council would be vesting the land back in itself because, obviously, it owns the botanic gardens. There is very strong protection there for the land and for any future use. My own confident view is that the building will continue to be a significant gallery for the display of artworks. The Canterbury Museum has a collection of some 8,000 artworks. Many of those are early pencil sketches of Canterbury landscapes, and they will be on display. Many of those sketches were done by famous people from the Canterbury district, and they will be on display. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI dare say that there will be the opportunity in this gallery to have a Helen Clark wing, in which some of the Prime Minister\u2019s artwork could be on display. I say \u201Cthe Prime Minister\u2019s artwork\u201D, but perhaps some of the artwork arranged by the Prime Minister could be put there. It would be appropriate for the Prime Minister to have artwork that she has purchased displayed in the gallery. It would be entirely consistent with this bill for the Prime Minister to have a gallery full of her art. She would not need to sign it, because the wing itself would be named the Helen Clark wing of the Robert McDougall Art Gallery. I suspect some of the things we would see in it would be some of the plates that are being prepared for the new currency notes that we will soon have in circulation, with Helen Clark\u2019s photograph\u2014and, no doubt, her signature\u2014on them. Some of the stamps that will bear Helen Clark\u2019s head could be in there. Those are all things that are entirely consistent with the display of art and decorative arts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI would not be at all surprised if the McDougall gallery makes a request to the Hon Judith Tizard, the Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage, for some of her knitting for display there. That would be OK. Perhaps it could be a bit of knitting that has been done in the House\u2014a bit of a Madame LaFarge effort, knitting as the guillotine comes down on the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBut in general, we can say that all those people who worried that that building might not be used for its original purpose should be content that the bill protects it as much as possible. The original gift from the McDougall family\u2014from Mr McDougall himself\u2014was a generous one. His intentions were clear, and they are maintained in this event. It is my understanding that Robert McDougall\u2019s descendants are very happy that the gallery will continue to carry his name, and that it will be a significant part of the museum\u2019s redevelopment. It is interesting to note that, in an airspace between the old museum and the McDougall gallery itself, a marae will be built and a full meeting house will be put in place, so that the earliest descendants of Otautahi can also be recognised in that cultural precinct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022677d600f25dc4cc7aeb148f580b36457\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022677d600f25dc4cc7aeb148f580b36457\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to commend this bill to the House. I was greatly enamoured of the speech by Gerry Brownlee. He has obviously been brushing up on a number of skills\u2014his encyclopedic memory of what goes on in the Robert McDougall Gallery\u2014in order to get ready for the new job that he will need, come 2005. On behalf of the Auckland MPs, I congratulate the Christchurch MPs on promoting this legislation. As they will appreciate, Auckland has several of these wonderful edifices, and we are grateful that the Cantabrians are now on the catch-up. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002295d9625a64f24572a38ff159788cde32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295d9625a64f24572a38ff159788cde32\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of New Zealand First, and to indicate that we will, of course, support this bill passing through the House. I was not the New Zealand First person who sat on the Local Government and Environment Committee and took part in the deliberations on the legislation. In fact, it is with some regret that, whilst I am a Canterbury man\u2014a Christchurch resident, and a Waimakariri ratepayer\u2014and, as I now understand it, I am contributing towards some of the costs that have been incurred here, I say it was Jim Peters who saw this bill through the select committee stage. It is just a little sad that he is not here to speak to it, but I will make some passing comments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFirst, I would like to acknowledge the generosity of some people, long since passed away, who were responsible in the first place for Christchurch\u2019s art gallery. In fact, that is pretty well laid out in the submission from the Christchurch City Council. In 1928, the managing director of Aulsebrooks Ltd, Robert McDougall, donated \u00A325,000 for the construction of the art gallery. I also find that in 1982-83 the administrative wing was made possible by a generous donation of $250,000 from the Molly Morpeth Canaday Fund. Is it not ironic that the very people who are often accused of being horrible, nasty, mean, Tory people with too much money, and who are often the subject of political envy by socialist parties and members of socialist parties who want to give all the money to the poor and the impoverished, are actually the very people who contribute freely of their own time? We can look at the Todds and at so many of the families out there who, on the one hand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022725ecbec9f784471815f3a59751668ad\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: This is the man who abused me yesterday about luxury\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250fe6efc54a742d9922096e7580aa021\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, because the member gives away money as though it is going out of fashion. That Minister who is prattling on and interjecting, Mr Mark Burton, is known for one thing: throwing around other people\u2019s money like an 8-armed octopus. He has never ever had to go out and mortgage his home, raise capital, create a business, and employ people himself. He is a man who has lived off the taxpayer\u2019s teat all his life. It is a great irony that this great art gallery in Christchurch would not even exist but for the very types of people whom he and his ilk continually criticise on the election hustings as being greedy capitalists\u2014rich and horrible people. Those very people fund some of our institutions out of their own pockets, and we are grateful that they exist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHere is one of the great ironies. Normally, it is the reserve of the rich and the wealthy to be seen at symphonies, the ballet, the art gallery, and walking the catwalk at the Montana New Zealand Wearable Arts Awards. But in this day and age the Labour Party, which reflects academic socialism, no longer has a truck driver, a freezing worker, a mechanic, or a tradesperson in its ranks. Its members are always to be seen funding art, turning up to open art shows, poncing themselves around as the new socialist elite of the new society, and holding themselves up as the protectors of the art world. That really strikes a chord with the men from the freezing works at Belfast. They know precisely\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb3b7bf2f6ec413aa315cb5ed5c664d7\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s never been there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfdeca06050a4170b673ffa40f0e2b48\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Cosgrove that I was there when he was there, during my campaign at the 1993 election. I have been there many, many times since then. Asking that question shows that the member is ignorant or wants to perpetuate a lie, or both. He should make up his mind. Maybe the man has never been there himself, and is jealous of me. But here we have a situation where the member has been there three times in 5 years\u2014not bad, given that he has worked in this Parliament for a lot longer than that. Do we not find it ironic that those people who left the Labour Party with their vote, who took their membership away\u2014and there are a lot of them here in the House\u2014look upon the Labour Party now as a new cultural and social elite? That makes them, given their criticism of the Tories, whom they hate, and of the capitalists, whom they loathe\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec626373524c44fe8497d62dab48686e\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: And secretly envy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242ef8946078f452dab684f4f2de73f45\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: And secretly envy, and whom they just want to be like\u2014even more able to be called that horrible \u201Ch\u201D word that we are not allowed to use in the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThis bill is a good move. However, I cannot let this debate pass by without mentioning that tower of strength in support of Helen Clark as a painter and an artist: the mayor of Christchurch, Gary Moore. He is a Labour Party stalwart from way back. It has not been lost on Labour voters in Canterbury that the very people who fronted up with $47 million of ratepayers\u2019 money to build the new art gallery, which is replacing the McDougall art gallery, came from Labour ranks. Once again Labour members want to be seen at the opera, at the ballet, and at the forefront of promoting art, because God knows they cannot paint for themselves. God knows that Helen Clark cannot paint, despite the fact that she said she could. Labour members want to be seen up there amongst the socially elite. That is actually one of the most astounding things about the Labour Party of today. If we are to look at that party closely we must ask ourselves what it does stand for, in all the things that it has progressed through the House and through its Labour Party card-carrying lackeys in local government. What have Labour members been most concerned about in the last 4 years? Well they are not concerned about housing in Christchurch, because the State houses are full of immigrants and refugees. They are not concerned about the health services and their delivery, because that money is going out to immigrants and refugees. They are not concerned about catering for real jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc19dcad60ad4c80b8af56831e5c2045\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s about jobs\u2014real jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaf4a7a022d345f8ad01cf71b8376c91\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Oh jobs, the man says. The only thing he is interested in is chasing 55-year-olds out into the workforce. He does not give a toss about the lazy, sit-on-their-backsides-doing-nothing people whom New Zealand First had working for the dole. No, he wants to harangue nanas and granddads, and to get them out to work because they need a job jolt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is good to see that this bill will go through the House. It is good to see that the Christchurch City Council has consulted with people, and has adhered to the principles laid down by the people who originally fronted up with the money and donated it for the building of the art gallery. That will leave a great sense of satisfaction with their heirs, and, no doubt, with the 200-300 people who actually made submissions to the council. But that leaves this question: what about the tens and hundreds of thousands of other Christchurch people who did not make submissions? What about those people who actually just want the Labour-led local government of Christchurch, and this Labour central government to take care of some of the basics? I am referring to things like escalating electricity prices, people who cannot get a State home, people who sit in a queue waiting to get access to hospital services while immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers take the money out from under their noses\u2014[Interruption] It is all about being relevant. This is all about splurging money\u2014hard-earned money\u2014on things that are actually set up to gratify Helen Clark\u2019s artistic desires. That is what the issue is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIf the old gallery ends up being used as a museum that will be great, because I know a lot of work is being done to expand the Canterbury Museum. That is desperately needed, because in there we house the whakapapa of the Canterbury district and the greater South Island, and that is very, very important. What I do not want to see there are the ashes of Helen Clark\u2019s painting. I do not want to see in the Robert McDougall Art Gallery, which will be converted into a museum, Helen Clark\u2019s art works. I do not want, at some distant time, my great grandchildren to wander through the gallery and see the replica painting of Helen Clark\u2019s forgery\u2014it would have to be a replica, because we know that for some reason someone purchased the painting that she signed and destroyed it. But Helen Clark did not know anything about that!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603bd733d8f44fbc8f7e716a2703e532\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What about a photograph?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec2b9d11981b4cb4abe2ecdfa1bd3f93\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: There may be a photograph, but we will have to decide whether it should be the one where she used a hairbrush or an airbrush. That is the other piece of art forgery that could go in this art gallery. The Labour Party\u2019s pre-election card purports to have a photo of Helen Clark on it, but it must be her daughter. Yet we know she does not have a daughter, so that cannot be the case. Now I am really confused. That was the last bit of art forgery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThere is another forgery over here. I saw a document down in the bookshop in Bowen House and on the front page there was a photo of a woman with Jim Anderton. I asked who the woman was. Well, again it is a piece of art forgery, because it is not Helen Clark. It certainly does not look like her. But who knows, one day when my great, great grandchildren are going through this art gallery, they may see the transitional sets of photographs, election after election, of Helen Clark\u2014one with a hairbrush and one with an airbrush; one with her as an older woman and one as a younger woman. Right beside them we will probably see the ashes of her painting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd79883663e84c3789644090d8816252\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd79883663e84c3789644090d8816252\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I do not have a lot to say about this bill. It is a local bill, and the really fundamental question is why it actually needs to come to this Parliament. That is a fairly fundamental question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have had a number of entertaining speeches, where we have gone into the vagaries and inadequacies of the health sector, and into the issue of refugees and immigrants. But, personally, I find this bill to be very narrow and very specific. It is a local bill, and in essence clause 7 is the key part. It affects the rights and prerogatives of the Crown, by repealing section 54 of the Reserves and Other Lands Disposal and Public Bodies Empowering Act of 1925. All that essentially means is that what would have happened to the Robert McDougall Gallery, if it ceased to be used for the purpose of an art gallery, is that it would have reverted to the Crown. The Local Government and Environment Committee considered that, and really there is a lot of satisfaction that the Christchurch City Council is the appropriate body to look after the building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EChristchurch members have already made the observation that the city is developing a sort of arts sector as it were, along a kilometre or so of \u201CChristchurch Boulevard\u201D, adjacent to Hagley Park. As this gallery is adjacent to the botanic gardens, I actually believe, and ACT believes, that these are matters that should be dealt with at the local level. We should not spend the time of our national Parliament on this bill. I do not mean to say that it deals with trivia, but these are strictly minor matters. I just want to put in a plug that in the future we should look to strip ourselves of jurisdiction over these sorts of matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003ESome local bills are important, and do need to come to this Parliament. Our Standing Orders make provision for local bills, and so they should. But I think there are, at times, very, very local matters that should not come here\u2014and I see that the Leader of the House is nodding in agreement with my submission. I do think there are matters that can, and should, be dealt with by local councils and this, in my view, would be one of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EACT supports this bill. We see no mischief or any problem with regard to the bill. There is a commonsense recommendation from the select committee, and we will support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022d9f6ca0bfc8846a7b85adedbb6667dca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d9f6ca0bfc8846a7b85adedbb6667dca\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I acknowledge the honourable member Ken Shirley who has just resumed his seat, but I took a slightly different position from his. A few weeks back in the House we debated and were in cooperation to pass the Auckland War Memorial Museum Site Empowering Bill, which happened to be a local bill, as well. My contention is art galleries and museums are not just entirely a local issue as such. I think that museums and galleries in each city have a national and, to an extent, international importance, as well. Most museums, including art galleries, whether in Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch, are not just the pride of the local people. They also provide quite a major attraction to international visitors, and in fact they are always, within the itinerary, the first port of call in order for international visitors to understand New Zealanders, then, further, each region\u2019s differences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E I follow on from the compliments paid to the McDougall family by a few colleagues who have just spoken. Indeed, the McDougall art gallery has for 70 years provided a very, very enjoyable experience for the many people who have visited it. My participation in the opening of the new Christchurch art gallery reminded me of how all these treasures, valuable paintings, and art have been hidden away from the public for so long because they had long outgrown the old McDougall gallery. As well as receiving the generosity of the McDougall family, the new Christchurch art gallery also received generous support from local people. I would like to mention, for example, Ms Ros Burdon, who contributed as part of the fundraising committee of the new art gallery. Also, I am very privileged to be married to Sammy, my husband, who has also served on the fundraising committee, and has seen quite a few Asian community members in Christchurch donating generously to the Christchurch art gallery. This demonstrates that whatever the background of the members from Christchurch, they all share the same pride and generosity towards the new art gallery, which will provide much enjoyment and pride to this very fine city that I have been living in for 27 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe reason we are here to debate this bill is due to the advantage of having the new Christchurch art gallery situated on Worcester Boulevard, which led to the McDougall gallery now being available to be leased by the Christchurch City Council, as it sees fit. But the submitters rightly pointed out that they want to make sure the future use of the McDougall art gallery will also still be for public enjoyment. I am very pleased that the Christchurch City Council has already indicated that the art gallery will be leased to the Canterbury Museum. Like the Auckland War Memorial Museum collections, the art treasures and collections of the Canterbury Museum also deserve a lot more space. I have a particularly soft spot for the Canterbury Museum. About 10 years ago the Canterbury Museum curator approached the Chinese community and asked whether they were interested in assisting the Canterbury Museum to develop a dedicated Asian display gallery. It was with a lot of pride and joy that we cooperated with fundraising and providing cultural input. The Canterbury Museum now has a permanent display area to show the fine collection of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese artefacts. The other interesting thing is that the existence of the permanent display gallery continues to attract generous donations from the Asian community. Every time there are international visitors, or visitors from Auckland and Wellington, the museum is one of the places to which the Asian community proudly invites those visitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI think I mentioned in the House a few weeks ago that I hope that one day the Auckland War Memorial Museum will also see fit to have a space dedicated to the growing Asian population up there. I certainly would like to see Te Papa, the national museum, acknowledge that New Zealand is now a multicultural society. The people of Christchurch can see the collections of the Canterbury Museum, or any other future special exhibitions that can be brought to Christchurch, and I think that is a fantastic addition for Christchurch people. I remember that for quite a number of years the Canterbury Museum and the McDougall gallery cooperated to bring special exhibitions to the area. Now, with this extended space, I can imagine the Canterbury Museum not only expanding its existing display space but also negotiating, with a lot more flexibility, with international museums to bring special exhibitions to Christchurch. I always think it is a very good commercial venture when one brings in special exhibitions that will help to pay for the cost of exhibiting those shows and, at the same time, generate revenue that will help to reduce the operating expenses of the museum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt was quite interesting to see some of the anxieties shown by the submitters with regard to making sure that public purpose statements are introduced to this bill. They are concerned that maybe local government, or whoever, may want to use the McDougall gallery for purposes other than public access. Although I can understand their anxiety, there is, nowadays, a more consultative way for central and local government to conduct their business, so the public certainly should have more confidence that this consultation process will be respected. I can remember that in Christchurch, for a long time, people always told me that if any mayor or elected people dared to touch a corner of Hagley Park, they could guarantee they would never be elected to any public office. I am quite sure that the Christchurch public can rest in peace, as no public body would imagine that a very valued part of the Botanic Gardens, which has a fantastic building in the form and shape of the McDougall gallery, would not continue to remain in public hands. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is indeed a pleasure and an honour to be associated with the debate on the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill. [Interruption] I thought the Labour members might have had something useful to say, but, as usual, they are full of hot air and do not have much to contribute. Unlike Labour members, I certainly have New Zealand\u2019s interests at heart\u2014not petty politics about regionalisation and criticism from members who cannot respect and support the initiative in cities like Christchurch, Wellington, or Auckland. I can assure members that I will support good projects and roading issues whenever they are necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u00223e3e81dd2bd344138059cdc9d21693a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223e3e81dd2bd344138059cdc9d21693a0\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (NZ Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E Before I start to say a few words as a fellow Canterbury member who supports the bill, I thank Mrs Wong, the new representative of west Auckland\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261aeb168fb124416b55603fcb37d686e\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Central Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec330701528f47fda28717f96a8f9084\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014central Auckland, for her contribution. I find it ironic that she talks about petty politics. It is strange to be in agreement with Mr Shirley\u2014and it scares me to think of it\u2014but I think he is right when he says that a number of these bills could be dealt with differently if we had a change in the Standing Orders, and we should expedite good bills like this swiftly. But when Mrs Wong gets up and talks about petty politics, I have to point out that it is the petty politics of the National Party today\u2014it broke an agreement to expedite this bill\u2014and the grandstanding of the National Party that is slowing down the process of a very straightforward bill that is supported by my fellow Cantabrians and by every member of the Parliament. [Interruption] I think Mr Mark supports it, but we are not quite sure. I think Mr Mark is looking forward to the day when the Robert McDougall building opens a branch of Madame Tussauds wax museum, so that all the relics from New Zealand First will be able to have a permanent exhibit within it, because they will not be exhibited in this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223489d13815f849b4bf581101a7646223\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: Before the dinner break I made the point that I agreed entirely with Mr Shirley when he said that we should expedite bills like this through the House. I made the point that I agree, as a Canterbury member, that this bill is a good bill. It is, I believe, supported by all parties in this House, yet we have the bizarre situation\u2014and I believe it was Pansy Wong who had the audacity to talk about petty politics\u2014where the National Party welshed on a deal that was before the Business Committee. We now have the bizarre situation where a good bill\u2014which has no politics in it whatsoever\u2014from my neck of the woods in Canterbury will be delayed inexplicably by the National Party\u2019s wallowing in petty politics. I ask Mrs Wong and members of the National Party to reflect on that. It is pathetic. It is not what we get paid for in this Chamber. Occasionally we can do things that have no politics in them. Mr Shirley made a pretty reasonable contribution. We do not often agree, but we agree on this. At times when these issues are non-partisan, non-political, and straightforward, to have an Opposition playing games like this, welshing on deals, and delaying a local bill just for the sake of it is pathetic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2573db911824c558870f3d049c35055\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a very sad day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a34a90cae154194b3346aed78bae570\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE\u003C/span\u003E: It is a sad day. It is pathetic. The people of Canterbury\u2014my neck of woods, and Mr Barnett\u2019s\u2014will look with contempt on that Opposition for the petulant and immature display it has given us today. This is a very good bill. It modernises the ownership practices of the Christchurch City Council. Finally, it is worth noting that in establishing the new art gallery that replaces the McDougall, we should thank many of the folk who made huge donations to the new art gallery. People like the Burdon family and the Stewart family in Christchurch have made huge contributions in a monetary sense to facilitate that new art gallery, and they should be acknowledged, despite Mr Mark\u2019s scornful comments that the Government somehow pours buckets on people who have a few bob. That is not on. It is immature, and he is well suited to his position on the Opposition benches. This is a good bill. As a Canterbury MP I support it. I know that Government members will facilitate it expeditiously, unlike the petulance of the Opposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00222ad7f6a3c5f84db68ac312b33b2d9982\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ad7f6a3c5f84db68ac312b33b2d9982\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I was pleased to hear Mr Clayton Cosgrove assure the House that, at the end of this debate, when leave is sought to try to progress this bill through all its stages tonight, it will not be denied by the Labour Party. The National Party is very keen for this bill to pass through all its stages tonight. The only thing we sought at the start of the debate was the ability for our interested Canterbury members to make a contribution. After quite lengthy points of order, that opportunity was denied to us by the Labour Party. Why it did not want local National Canterbury members speaking to this legislation I do not know. It was interesting that, as Mr Cosgrove finished his contribution, he acknowledged that it is in the interests of Parliament and of Christchurch people to see this bill progress through all its stages tonight. I know that it is the intention of the National Party to seek leave for that to be done. Let us see, once and for all, whether the Labour Party intends to assist this bill through all its stages tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI rise with pleasure to support the bill. I recall a contribution I made when this bill was given its first reading in the House. I talked about the tremendous contribution that the McDougall family, amongst others, has made to Christchurch and to arts and culture within our city. No doubt, when he made his decision to vest a substantial amount of money to the city of Christchurch for an art gallery, which opened in June 1932, he had not given much thought to the future, and had not considered the fact that 70 years on Christchurch would be the proud owner of a tremendous new art gallery, which was opened earlier this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ETo bring just a tinge of sadness in terms of that particular opening, it is interesting to note that no National members of Parliament were asked by the city council to attend. It occurred on a Saturday morning. I was quite happy to spend my time in the electorate office, looking after all those constituents coming to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba3083adc4f6425d9eaed05b79d669dd\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the mayor?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edaa3d5bdc3f41f78f1ff72510066a65\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The person in charge of the guest list was none other than the mayor, Garry Moore\u2014that well-known Labour Party lackey of Helen Clark. If Helen Clark and Garry Moore get a huge sense of satisfaction in going through the guest list for the opening of the new Christchurch gallery and taking off names like David Carter, Gerry Brownlee, and Brian Connell because they do not want National members of Parliament at the opening, that is their business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022289ee68ca92c4482a2f0f2836f2a5687\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: They didn\u2019t know who you were.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8078e8964ed4aa2a34bd771bebd0ab0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Cosgrove that that is the level of petty politics that the Labour Party sometimes stoops to. I also think it is the level of petty politics that it will again stoop to at the end of this second reading debate, when there will be the opportunity, by leave of the House, to move immediately to the third reading and to pass this legislation through all its stages tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2fbed195da8472f99574b101d889009\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: We tried once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fa4dc6bb994400a02004470694b139\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: So did we! It is important that Mr Burton tell the truth\u2014something that that particular political party is very economical with at the moment. He talked of a deal that was done in the Business Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb3550558ce0415c92b91fa82aff59f2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: That member wasn\u2019t there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022911cc5ed53fe47b588498950189448ca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I was not there, but Mr Brownlee was, and he disputed what Mr Burton said. He then invited him to table the minutes of the Business Committee. We have waited. Throughout the dinner break, when Mr Burton went up to his office, he had the opportunity to get the minutes, but he has not tabled them. It is, obviously, over to the House to draw its own conclusions as to why Mr Burton has not tabled the minutes of the Business Committee. He has not done so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253000e8683984adbadf8d1ca4f2a1628\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I have no need to table the minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228070036c66ab4b178fd7cdbb40388f09\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He is absolutely right; he does not have to table the minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022279838b2683843be810a306be285dae2\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I told the truth.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b31a91e7e34f249490a1c42605eb2c\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know about that, because we get so many questions here about that side, about the truth and open government. We had questions only today about the \u201Ccorngate\u201D inquiry and the Prime Minister\u2019s intention to cooperate, with full disclosure of the facts, and we are getting a litany of suggestions that that is not happening before that select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the Robert McDougall Art Gallery. I was commenting on the tremendous benefactor to our city that Robert McDougall was in establishing this art gallery. What Labour members will also not remember is that his family was a tremendous benefactor in establishing the Nurse Maude Association, which was the subject of a local bill about a year ago that I was pleased to be involved in. That is the sort of people Christchurch often has\u2014people who are prepared to donate huge amounts of money to make sure that our city is richer, certainly in its arts and culture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to move to the interest that the National Party has shown in this particular legislation. It was with some pride that I took Bill English, Lynda Scott, Lockwood Smith, and Nick Smith past the Robert McDougall Art Gallery about a month ago. I pointed out the extreme importance of this locality and the way it knits so closely to our museum, which is a remarkably good complex, and the way it sits on the edge of our Botanic Gardens. So Bill English, Lynda Scott, Lockwood Smith, and Nick Smith are well and truly appreciative of the fact that this bill should be passed tonight. I hope we will see that happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee informed us of the reason it is important to have this legislation passed. He talked about the 8,000 pieces of art\u2014contemporary Canterbury art and historic Canterbury art\u2014in storage at the moment that could soon be displayed in this particular building, now that it has been vacated with the opening of the new art gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864c15ea874a4838bdf5942e4822a76e\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: There is nothing in it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acba103460f34dcbb3295439a20f25f6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Benson-Pope says there is nothing in it. I think the 8,000 works of art should be seen on public display; it would be nice to see them. I guess he is hoping there is room for a little bit of the more contemporary artwork that is around Parliament at the moment. Maybe Helen Clark is in her office now doing another painting that she may sign or she may not sign. She may get Alec McLean\u2014 who I think was the artist, but did not get to sign it because Helen Clark could not get there quick enough to sign it\u2014to do one. Maybe that sort of art could be displayed in the Robert McDougall Art Galley. Maybe that is why Labour members now perhaps do not want this legislation passed with alacrity; they want to give the Prime Minister more time to prepare her artwork.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b21e0f29d9994e43a01759586528631e\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Is that the reason?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eba4b9c798a44f1a82c9de41536bac6\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not really know. But it is vital that this legislation is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022932ccdeb7d1d454d90002854a33c1e37\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Hold it up, then, why don\u2019t you?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022508df9bddf6148dc89781d8d6eff2411\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Let Hansard know that I have to hold the legislation up for the senior Government whip, who I think suffers from Alzheimer\u2019s, because he does not realise what piece of legislation we are debating. For the benefit of Mr Benson-Pope, it is the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe reason the bill has to be passed is so that Christchurch can enjoy the magnificent arts precinct that has been created over a generation. The museum and this particular building are contiguous, and are situated almost opposite the arts precinct\u2014the old university site\u2014and the boulevard leading up to the new art gallery and, further on, for the benefit of Mr Benson-Pope if he visits Christchurch, the magnificent Avon River. The other site that I think is also important to the art and culture of our city is The Strip\u2014the well-known Strip. I see Mr Barnett\u2019s eyes light up. I tell Mr Barnett that, no, we are not talking about that sort of strip at all; we are talking about The Strip along the Avon River.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ELet us hope we can get this legislation through all stages today. Christchurch people are listening with anticipation to the contributions that are being made by Labour members tonight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u0022307859eaa9104911a8ce374bfc125d6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022307859eaa9104911a8ce374bfc125d6e\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill, which deals with the issue of what to do with the gallery now that the new Christchurch City Council art gallery is open. We know that the Robert McDougall Art Gallery was presented to Christchurch City by Mr Robert E McDougall, and was opened on 16 June 1932. The land on which the gallery is situated was part of the city\u2019s Botanic Gardens until 1925, when Parliament passed the Reserves and Other Lands Disposal and Public Bodies Empowering Act. Section 54 of the Act vested the land in the corporation of Christchurch City for the purposes of a public art gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073a631050384f748909c552ccd6e823\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: Tell us more.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229eb8d0dedcd04e7fb4fe551fc99b6225\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: I will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f35147182ca444928f85ddc248265362\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: When was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c83b054569e847e0929199dc249af859\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: In 1925. The Act imposes certain conditions on the use of the land. After 70 years as one of the city\u2019s most significant arts and cultural centres, the Robert McDougall Art Gallery was closed to the public in June 2002 to enable its collection to be transferred to the new Christchurch Art Gallery, which opened in May this year. I am very pleased that the old gallery, which holds a category I classification in the New Zealand Historic Places Trust register, and is a group one listed heritage building in the city plan, is to be retained on its existing site by the city council. Group one heritage items include buildings, places, and objects of national significance the protection of which is considered essential. The Canterbury Museum approached the city council to use the building as an extension to the museum complex, as it is already situated adjacent to the museum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe direct descendants of Robert McDougall have also been consulted over the future use of the building. Robert McDougall was a successful businessman associated with the Kaiapoi woollen mills and the well-known Aulsebrooks bakery\u2014[Interruption] Yes, indeed so. It was said of McDougall that by instinct and practice he was generous, and above all he was modest. He was a well-known philanthropist, establishing a welfare league for his employees, and providing a library, tennis courts, and bowling green in the factory grounds for their use. But his particular interest was art. He gifted \u00A326,000 to establish the Robert McDougall Art Galley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f349039e-f016-4db0-a8d0-c374551be708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b17e514ebd184ab2bf540218a029c82c\u0022\u003ECraig McNair\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f00c8ccd5c74cb6af610e7f27764d3e\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: Twenty-six thousand pounds, which is quite a bit. The family of Robert McDougall has expressed the desire that the building continue to be used for widespread community use, and I am pleased that this sentiment has found favour in the decision to lease the old gallery building to the Canterbury Museum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe entire museum complex is a wonderful old building that was once part of the University of Canterbury, along with what is now known as the art centre. The museum is in great need of additional display space, and I think it is a good idea to utilise this vacant and adjacent building for this purpose, rather than construct a modern building nearby that would be out of character with the rest of the museum complex. The annexe built on to the Anglican Cathedral in Cathedral Square is a case in point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIn the case of the Robert McDougall Art Gallery I am pleased to advise the House that a conservation plan has been prepared by the city council to assist with the conservation and adaptive reuse of the building. Although the McDougall gallery served the cultured citizens of Christchurch so well for so many years, there were times when one sensed that its capacity was limited, and that had implications for its ability to host many major exhibitions. The gallery was opened in 1932 with 160 paintings and sculptures, but its exhibition space has not been altered since its construction more than 70 years ago, although an administration area\u2014the Canaday wing\u2014was added in 1982.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI am very excited by the new Christchurch City gallery, which can deliver in place of the McDougall gallery. It is a wonderful building. I was there at the opening. I can tell the National members who were not there that there was plenty of hot air for the balloons, so they were not needed. The new $47.5 million complex features two floors of exhibition space, two educational activity areas, an auditorium, a cafe and wine bar, which I particularly like, two retail outlets, a sculpture garden, and underground parking. Through purchases, bequests, and donations, the gallery\u2019s collection now totals over 5,500 items including paintings, prints, drawings, sculptures, ceramics, textiles, glass, metalwork and photography. The gallery\u2019s collection and acquisition policy is now focused on the art of Canterbury.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI want to return to the bill and some of the recommendations of the Local Government and Environment Committee, which were very sensible indeed. Several submitters wanted the word \u201Cpublic\u201D to be inserted before the word \u201Cgallery\u201D, in clause 6, and the committee agreed to ensure the building\u2019s continuing public use, which was intended when the land was originally vested in the council. However, it was noted that should the building be leased to the Canterbury Museum, the affirmation of public access would not prevent the museum from charging for special exhibitions, as this is the usual practice in the case of special exhibitions, in order to cover extraneous costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EA number of submitters were concerned that the wording of the bill leaves open the possibility that the gallery be used for commercial purposes. This ignores the fact that the gallery previously ran a retail service to supplement its income. I am pleased that the committee has taken the reasonable view that the museum may also want to do this on the side, in the course of fulfilling its functions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EPerhaps the most important aspect of the bill that was addressed by the select committee relates to the future use of the land. A number of concerns were raised about the future use of the land and the buildings if they are no longer used for the purposes specified in this bill. The original enabling legislation intended that the land could be re-vested in the Crown, and the control of it reverted to the then Christchurch Domain Board, if it ceased to be used for a gallery. The city council today is the successor of the Christchurch Domain Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7b2b5ef2d43485da333652d992c45c5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hesitate to interrupt my colleague, because he is giving a very fine speech. Even though I am sitting as close to him as I can, it is very difficult for me to hear, given the interruption we are getting from the benches over there. I think you should call the members to order. As an ex-Cantabrian, I know that this is a very important cultural issue for Christchurch and it deserves to be well ventilated this evening. My colleague was doing that, but he was being interrupted, and you need to intervene.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dcf7bf75de8457bbb6d8d284abf2e19\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is absolutely right. I was just about to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242367c637a8b4a87b6a4e5d2c69fc0b2\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: I shall continue ventilating. Without this bill the council could potentially lose the ownership of the McDougall art gallery, and would be left with only the control of the building, if the Crown chooses to exercise its right under the original Act. That creates legal doubts as to the ability of the city council to permit the gallery to be used for other purposes. It is important that a public facility such as the McDougall art gallery should not be subject to such doubts, no matter how unlikely one might consider that they would be realised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EHowever, the effect of the bill is that the area becomes a local purpose reserve owned by the council and subject to the Reserves Act. That means that the reservation could be revoked or changed by normal processes under the Reserves Act, although the council would not be able to sell the area, because of the specific prohibition clause. The committee considered it unlikely that the building would cease to be used as a gallery in the foreseeable future, as the council has indicated its intention to lease the building to the Canterbury Museum. However, it is important that, should the building cease to be used for the purposes specified in the bill, the local community is involved in any decisions about the future use of the land.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003ESo I am pleased that the committee recommended a new clause that provides that the purpose for which the land is held must not be changed under the Reserves Act. This would avoid the slightest possibility of the status being changed, without the requirement for public consultation, under the Reserves Act. It ensures that future councils will not be able to change the purpose of the reserve from its use as a gallery, as set out in the bill. Should the building cease to be used for that purpose, the council at the time would need to bring another local bill to Parliament to determine its future use. That would ensure the public\u2019s involvement in the future use of that land. As a Christchurch-based MP, I think it is an eminently sensible plan that should take account of local opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022c804bc5e38384c0095bdb806f46aa928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c804bc5e38384c0095bdb806f46aa928\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E It was a great pleasure to take the Local Government and Environment Committee to Christchurch to hear submissions on the bill, for a number of a reasons. It was a pleasure to have a trip laid on for us around this gracious and historic building early in the morning\u2014in a biting frost, I must say, but they turned on the heating especially for us. The gallery is a very beautiful building constructed with special-purpose lighting and designed to maximise the display of works of art. Clearly, a purpose-built building like that needs to continue to be used to display materials that need that very good lighting and physical layout. It was interesting to hear the story of the imitation marble columns and the special process that had been pioneered here to make those columns. It was interesting to see the very extensive basement where there are restoration facilities, storage, and workshops. Indeed, it is an impressive building. It was exciting to hear the plans to combine that building with the museum, as an extension of a very significant public building and display in Christchurch.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EIt was also a pleasure to hear the very strong community feeling that the people of Christchurch have for this building, for their public buildings generally, for the Botanic Gardens in which the gallery sits, and for its purpose as an art gallery. Quite a number of submitters argued very strongly that the important thing to them was that this gallery remained a public building and freely accessible to the public of Christchurch. There is a real fear out there that, in times of change, buildings like the gallery will somehow end up in the commercial sector, and no longer be freely available to the people to whom they were originally given as a bequest. Submitters argued strongly that the word \u201Cpublic\u201D should go before the word \u201Cgallery\u201D, in clause 6, to reinforce the idea that this was a public building and it should stay a public building, and the committee agreed with that request. As I said, there was a lot of suspicion about the risk of losing public ownership and control of an asset such as this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EAlso, very strong representation was made to the committee that access should remain free, that there are now very few public facilities for recreation and education that are accessible to poor families, who have difficulty enough affording the bus fare and the lunch for a day\u2019s outing without having to pay admission charges as well. That has always been the tradition in the McDougall gallery, except for special exhibitions, where a fee can be charged. The committee agreed with the public that it was important that that be maintained.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ESome concern was expressed about the word \u201Cancillary\u201D as in \u201Cancillary purposes\u201D. Here again there was a fear by people that the building might be taken over by commercialisation, by souvenir shops selling tasteless junk, or extensive food and alcohol premises, thus reducing the space available to display works of arts or of historic interest. Quite a strong argument was presented to the committee that we should remove ancillary activities altogether from the bill. We did not feel that was a logical or feasible thing to do, given that we wanted to provide for all the curatorial and other activities that go with a museum or an art gallery. We also thought it quite reasonable that a cafe should be provided where people could have a bite of lunch when they were visiting. But it is worth recording the strong feeling of the people of Christchurch that this building should be public space used for the display of works of art, and should not be used for just another commercial activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThere was also concern about what might happen if one day the building were no longer required for the purpose that this bill provides. Strong representations were made to us that if that were the case, it should return to the Botanic Gardens. On the face of it, the Botanic Gardens have nothing to do with the purpose of this bill. In fact, that is where the gallery is located, and the citizens of Christchurch laid their concerns before us that the Botanic Gardens had been gradually whittled away, with little bits here and there having been taken for other purposes and no longer part of the gardens. They argued strongly that if the McDougall gallery were no longer to be used as a gallery, the land should return to the Botanic Gardens. We thought that was putting too tight a constriction on people in 50 years\u2019 time, when the lease will run out if it is not renewed, but we thought it was important to provide some process whereby the purpose of the gallery could not be changed, and the ownership of the land could not be changed, without a full process of public input. In the end, officials recommended to us that it was difficult to do that with certainty for a time 50 years into the future without our ensuring that if that were the case, it should come back to Parliament. So despite being one of those who argues that we get too many local bills taking up the time of the Local Government and Environment Committee, and that it would be good for local government to solve more of these issues itself rather than bring them to Parliament, to respond to the strong feelings of the people of Christchurch that they want a legal guarantee that the purpose, function, and ownership of this very special place could not be changed without their input, we have provided that if that change needs to take place in 50 years, it will come here again as a local bill, and therefore they will have input into it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI commend the bill to the House. I think the changes made to it by the committee are valuable, and I look forward to seeing it passed and implemented.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022164405eb6e8b4c239052c4870789dee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022164405eb6e8b4c239052c4870789dee4\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to join this debate and support the rapid progress, I hope, of the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill. This is the second time I have had cause to discuss the bill in the last 2 days. Yesterday good agreement was reached in the Business Committee to advance it quickly, and now today, when that agreement was welshed on by some members of this House. It is becoming a bit of a practice with members opposite to welsh on the undertakings of the Business Committee, but I want to share something with the member opposite who, by inference, as good as called me a liar, without breaching the privilege of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E I want to read to him item 8 from the minutes of yesterday\u2019s meeting, and I am happy to table them afterwards. In \u201CGeneral Business\u201D it was noted that leave would be sought for the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill to have a second and third reading, with no Committee stage, in a single debate of twelve 10-minute speeches. That is precisely what I said earlier, and precisely what I assured the House about. Mr Brownlee welshed on the deal because his colleagues put pressure on him, which is a very sad thing because it was a cross-party agreement that we had carefully put together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e522b8323fdd4edc9291c4e562ac60f6\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4e49cbc30a8405eafbe2ab0bacfb9ac\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Now, of course, Mr Mapp says it does not matter, because they have been caught out with their nasty little tricks. It has backfired. I say that the good people of Christchurch should not be disadvantaged because of members opposite who cannot be trusted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EBefore I conclude, I want to say that Mr Shirley and I do not agree about a lot of things, but in his comments earlier he did make a point that I think has some merit, and we should consider it through the Standing Orders Committee in relation to these sorts of bills. It is not that these bills are not important, but they do perhaps belong more properly in the jurisdiction of local government. I think it is something we should look at in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EWith that, it is my pleasure to support the progress of the bill. I seek leave to table, for the benefit of the House, the minutes of yesterday\u2019s Business Committee meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House, and leave subsequently rescinded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003ESecondly, I seek leave that at the conclusion of the second reading of the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Vesting Bill the House move directly to the third reading, and that the question on the third reading be put without debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bdeda3214d243c1b0d24168edbba30a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022f23068c09ec7434aa75d732c54e01a33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f23068c09ec7434aa75d732c54e01a33\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not object to the tabling of the minutes of the Business Committee, but I seek your advice upon an aspect of it. My understanding is that the minutes of committee meetings cannot be tabled in the House until they have been cleared by the committee itself\u2014in other words, adopted by the committee. The Business Committee met yesterday and the minutes have been circulating today. I do not think they have been adopted by the committee. Therefore, while I have no objection to full disclosure, I question whether it is in order for minutes that are not yet the official record of the committee to be tabled in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00225cc56670ce314a3f93ecbd2cad724b3b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225cc56670ce314a3f93ecbd2cad724b3b\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I share the concern of the member, but given that my integrity had been challenged, and that the challenge had been specifically put to me across the House to table the minutes, and that, most importantly, I did so by seeking leave of the House\u2014the House can give leave for anything\u2014I therefore tabled the minutes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af04bd11089c4580bd4dd14dc380f056\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I do not need any further assistance on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022beaea7099f8d4ad8a4c2f51affd93be2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beaea7099f8d4ad8a4c2f51affd93be2\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I seek a point of clarification, Mr Speaker. The Hon Peter Dunne raised a very interesting point, and I did not hear you respond or rule on that aspect. The Deputy Leader of the House has moved on to the next stage of it. I would certainly like a clarification of the point, because I find it a bit of an outrage that the Deputy Leader of the House, particularly, should come down here and wave around the minutes of a committee that has not yet approved those minutes. That is my understanding of the situation, and I think it is very inappropriate behaviour. I think we need a ruling on that from you as Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260aec8f01fde4259961c1a15e2cfaea4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not give you a ruling before, because Mr Burton was speaking to the same point of order. I was about to give a ruling when you chose to speak on the same point of order. I allowed you to speak, and that is fair enough. The ruling is that Mr Burton was fully entitled to seek the leave of the House to table the minutes, which he did, and there was no objection. In fact, the minutes are a draft only, so no approvals were needed. The House was fully entitled to do what it did. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00229b71fb0398e9417c97629c7144b7046b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b71fb0398e9417c97629c7144b7046b\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That decision, which I do not question, raises a further issue. In the event that the committee, when it meets next week, does not adopt those minutes, what becomes the status of the document that the Minister has just tabled, which purports to be the minutes of a meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E I think we have put ourselves in a very difficult position. I accept that the House can, by leave, do just about anything, but we have put ourselves in a very difficult position if papers that have not been formally adopted by a committee can be tabled in the House, purporting to be the record of that committee\u2019s proceedings, when the possibility exists that the committee may subsequently change those records. Does that mean that the Minister is then obliged to come back to the House, withdraw those papers, and table the amended set of papers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984b263695754ddc97c026da8800870e\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e284fe77a8f94474a67efb2ad5b5919d\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The point I am making, Mr Assistant Speaker, is that we end up in a situation where the integrity of the committee process is challenged. Also\u2014and I say this with due respect to the Minister\u2014perhaps by inadvertence, his integrity is challenged by virtue of the fact that he may have tabled documents that are no longer accurate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022377f6d36c0ae4d9f87e0306ae3bbf8ca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022377f6d36c0ae4d9f87e0306ae3bbf8ca\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to raise another matter that I think you should take into consideration, Mr Assistant Speaker. It seems to me that we may well have been misled with the tabling of this document. I heard Mr Burton seek leave to table the minutes of that particular meeting. As it has now transpired, he has not tabled the minutes. What he has done\u2014according to what you have said yourself, Mr Assistant Speaker\u2014is table the draft minutes. If the Minister had correctly described them as the draft minutes, he might well have found that Parliament was not prepared to accept them. It is important that when a member of Parliament seeks to table any document, the document is factually described.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002263bca3f5ed074ea4b7ce92a6611c0527\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263bca3f5ed074ea4b7ce92a6611c0527\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I think the member has made a very valid point. It may well be that the best way to resolve this impasse is for the member who sought leave originally to seek leave afresh to table the draft, unapproved minutes of the committee, then the House can make an informed decision on whether it wishes to accept them. As Mr Carter points out, we now have a rather bizarre situation. The Minister says he has tabled the minutes. Next Tuesday will be the earliest date the committee can approve those minutes. There is an error there. The way through it is for the Minister to withdraw the original request, seek leave to table the draft, unapproved minutes, then the House can resolve the matter accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6f8fbe8d7fe480aa719d57cf0c1aa29\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6f8fbe8d7fe480aa719d57cf0c1aa29\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E As the House knows, I sought leave to satisfy David Carter\u2019s doubting of my word. I am more than happy to further accommodate the House and, as an act of goodwill\u2014I have no obligation to do so, because I sought leave in good faith\u2014amend the leave I sought to say that I seek leave to table the draft, unconfirmed minutes of yesterday\u2019s Business Committee meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002288fc517735c14ff492ed1c92f413d0c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002288fc517735c14ff492ed1c92f413d0c0\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am now a bit confused, because the House acquiesced and did not deny leave, so the motion was carried. I totally agree with the Hon Peter Dunne. I think he has made a very good point, because people may have had a totally different feeling if they understood them to be the draft minutes. I think the Deputy Leader of the House would have to withdraw the previous leave he was granted, then reapply for leave to table the appropriate document, which is the draft, unapproved minutes of the Business Committee. Otherwise, I do not know how the Journals of the House would record it. We would have a somewhat messy situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201608bfe22524c18bac74fb2c3c1618c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It is pretty clear cut. I thank members for their contributions and for their guidance. What was done was done, and it was done quite rightly. The Minister may not have described them as draft minutes, but I do not think that is a big enough error\u2014if an error at all\u2014to negative what happened. The House was fully entitled to agree with the leave that was sought to table those minutes. It is irrelevant\u2014and I mean no disrespect to the committee about which we are talking\u2014what the committee does next week. It is totally irrelevant to the tabling of that document. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7f815b667ec423081516485b4724ccc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7f815b667ec423081516485b4724ccc\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E With respect, that document was tabled under the guise of being the minutes of the Business Committee meeting of yesterday. Your ruling now implies that the document was not the minutes of the Business Committee meeting yesterday. The question that then arises, which the House does need to consider, is what the status of that document is. It is merely the secretary\u2019s doodlings. It has no official status whatsoever until it is adopted by the committee\u2014and I do dispute your point about relevance in that respect\u2014which comes back to the fact that the Minister sought, I thought, leave to withdraw his original request and to submit to the House a request for leave to table what are simply the secretary\u2019s notes of a meeting, which I think the House might have an entirely different view about accepting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc5ded31950741a1a11a41fb12af5f3b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That was the second part of what I was going to address. You chose to extend the point of order, and that was fine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00228afdb6448b3346db90149b776d4a88f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228afdb6448b3346db90149b776d4a88f8\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I am speaking to the point of order, because it does not seem to have yet been resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211dac200f0c64c988c9a1169fcaf67fb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: What?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4481b91cd4647a08f175c1e5cd2778f\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The issue that Mr Dunne has raised has not actually been resolved; you have not actually ruled on that matter. The question is this. I believe that the House was under a mistake\u2014you will be well familiar with that concept in law\u2014when the Deputy Leader of the House sought to table minutes that were not actually what the House had been led to believe they were. It is quite clear that the decision of the House could well have been different\u2014I am not saying it would have been different; I am saying it could well have been different\u2014if people had known what was actually being tabled. What was represented to be tabled was not actually what was tabled. The importance of that is this. You just mentioned a bit earlier that that was not a material factor. I put it to you that it actually is a material factor, and it wholly changes what was sought to be tabled. The minutes, if they were such, have an official status, and there would be no other issues that could possibly arise from that fact. In this instance, however, they are not minutes but are, to use the rather memorable phrase of Mr Dunne, mere doodlings of the secretary, until approved. That is a material difference. It is not a minor consequence, as may have been suggested by yourself, Mr Assistant Speaker, and I would suggest to you that you do have to reconsider your earlier ruling on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002272be5a7463e943739b4a6b94c071a526\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272be5a7463e943739b4a6b94c071a526\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank Dr Mapp for that contribution. The fact is that leave was sought to table a document, leave was granted, and that document is in the custody of the Clerk now, and any member may familiarise himself or herself with that document. I do not intend to reverse my ruling. I accept that there was a slight misdescription. I do not think it had any bearing whatsoever, despite what members say, on the agreement to the leave. I refer you to Speaker\u2019s ruling 113/5. I have ruled, similar to that ruling, that the slight misdescription did not invalidate the tabling. The document is in the custody of the Clerk. It has been tabled. Where you wish to move from here is over to you\u2014I do not mind\u2014but you will not relitigate that issue as far as I am concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022cb166e0b9b5b4a189c0667d7a5580fce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cb166e0b9b5b4a189c0667d7a5580fce\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there is a way forward\u2014and this is relating to the status of the document that was tabled. Your assertion and your judgment were based on the fact that it would not make any material difference. I think there is way to test that. If you were to invite the Deputy Leader of the House to resubmit the draft, to apply for leave to table the draft minutes of the Business Committee, then we could test that assertion\u2014whether your assumption that it would not have made any difference is true or false. I put that to you as, perhaps, a way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022f62d4377874b4d8cb7c086039b55725f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f62d4377874b4d8cb7c086039b55725f\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that. It was my view that it would not have made any difference. Of course, a new test of that would not quite be fair, because all members have prepared for it and have, as you know, discussed the issue. But if the member would like to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002275d83fcae01345038e4b0fdd2bc5ed70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275d83fcae01345038e4b0fdd2bc5ed70\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am more than pleased to do it. I just want to say this as I do so. I submitted the document in good faith to the House. If I gave any inadvertent ill-description, I unreservedly apologise to the House; it was submitted purely to assist the member opposite who cast aspersions on my word. I simply want to say to that member that it is an unfortunate turn of events when his own colleagues have driven us to this, because it further sours our ability to do business in the House. I seek leave to table the draft, unconfirmed minutes of yesterday\u2019s Business Committee meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9a9b5ecde3a43bfbe8230fdd17ce5a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9a9b5ecde3a43bfbe8230fdd17ce5a2\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand that the Minister is now seeking leave to table a document described as the draft minutes, but under your ruling of a few moments ago the original decision to table a document that he described as the minutes still stands, so if the House agrees to leave for the Minister to table the draft minutes, what is the status of the document that he tabled a few moments ago\u2014and I accept that he may have been inadvertently misled at the time\u2014that he claimed was the minutes? Do we have two documents under two different titles, or is in fact a second set now required to withdraw the first document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00226ece05bd8ccd45da847b27e4e12801c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ece05bd8ccd45da847b27e4e12801c7\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E The member is now clearly being unreasonable. I have already made clear to the House that I inadvertently ill-described the document that I am now seeking leave to table as the draft, unconfirmed minutes. I think that is a matter of clarity. I am disappointed in the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022227dfee05c164bdb99237ca4f72338a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022227dfee05c164bdb99237ca4f72338a6\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I have in my left hand the New Zealand Herald of today\u2019s date. I have in my right hand a document called Speakers\u2019 Rulings. If we go down the path that the Minister is now suggesting, I could seek to table the New Zealand Herald believing and saying to the House that I think it is actually Speakers\u2019 Rulings, then, when someone says they are two totally different documents, I could say: \u201COh well, actually what I meant to table was Speakers\u2019 Rulings, even though I have also tabled, purporting it to be Speakers\u2019 Rulings, the New Zealand Herald.\u201D It is an absurd situation, and I think the way forward is for the Minister to withdraw his original request, then to seek to table afresh whatever he chooses now to describe the document as.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002227e497f2ff394e4eb4aed4bbae026343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227e497f2ff394e4eb4aed4bbae026343\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I get the message from the example you have used. I think it is a very extreme example. There is no way that you would have been able to do that, if I was in the Chair. The member would not have been able to table Speakers\u2019 Rulings instead of the New Zealand Herald. He would not have got that past the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fadc614f494a4c80b19b3e150a1a2cb0\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022b54ee2b7b8d8435fbafb64e00b7caad5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b54ee2b7b8d8435fbafb64e00b7caad5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any further assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228de189eb31d646a385df01a36409124c\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: It is a fresh point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022a502414196344f60ad49177cd6645eba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a502414196344f60ad49177cd6645eba\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: When I get to the member, I will allow him a fresh point of order. I want to say, in relation to the other one, that leave has been sought again, and even if they are submitted, it does not alter the fact that the document has been tabled, and it remains in the custody of the Clerk. You can table as many documents as you like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc94300c69a942bd960fa09937bd8409\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What is the official record, then? What becomes the official record?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002264572ac9f09e49c2a8164c906ac67ef7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002264572ac9f09e49c2a8164c906ac67ef7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It is all part of the official record. The first one\u2014and we accept that there was a slight misdescription\u2014is part of the official record. It is the draft. That is the one he seeks to table; it will be exactly the same, and they will both be in the custody of the Clerk. If members wish to view them, and to prolong this matter, I am quite happy. Dr Mapp has a fresh point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022edc49a0986f042a1ad33da7049c15652\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edc49a0986f042a1ad33da7049c15652\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is fresh point of order and an important one in view of the second attempt\u2014well, it is actually not a second attempt; it is a new attempt\u2014by the Deputy Leader of the House to table the unapproved, draft minutes. The question I would invite you to consider is why on earth the Deputy Leader of the House would be seeking to table draft minutes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223235a3ac00394b8fa489bed5e17dab77\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: Because his colleague asked him to. That\u2019s why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d9c59fc640c4ec89053ca05bb7c37c8\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: There is actually an issue of privilege here, Mr Assistant Speaker. The Privileges Committee has been sitting for weeks on a whole variety of cases that have been brought before the Privileges Committee on the issue of documents of various select committees being released before they are approved. Yet here we have the Deputy Leader of the House seeking to table a draft document not approved by the committee, and one could only speculate about that very act. Ironically, I am actually helping the Deputy Leader of the House, but I have to express my surprise that the Deputy Leader of the House is so deficient in knowledge\u2014well, that is not a fair statement but it is one that it invites\u2014as to actually invite a breach of privilege by seeking to table minutes. It is extraordinary. I would ask the Speaker to consider that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022e80a981b32874a39ba1842e2bc2089cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e80a981b32874a39ba1842e2bc2089cb\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I will consider that point; what weight I give to it is a different matter. I want to repeat that it is not for the Chair to ask why a member seeks to table a document. I am not sure whether the last speaker was present when that tabling occurred or whether the member had a chance to object to it. I do not need to be reminded that the request had a slight misdescription in it. In my view, that had no bearing on the acceptance of the leave, at all, and I repeat that. I think we need to move on. It is members\u2019 night; if members wish to go on for another hour on this, I am quite happy. I would not let it continue if it was not members\u2019 night. It is over to members.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002263bae349a9584640a3cac9adddb051fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002263bae349a9584640a3cac9adddb051fe\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In the course of the Hon Mark Burton\u2019s contribution to the House earlier he made statements that, to say the least, impugned my integrity. I think it is important for the House to understand that the Business Committee is a group that works under the chair of the Speaker in a very informal manner, that the resolutions of that committee are reached by consensus, and that the greatest beneficiary of that committee\u2019s activities is in fact the Government, because it is, for the greater part, facilitating the Government\u2019s business. We routinely allow select committees a longer period of time to report bills than the date for the report back put on the bill when it was sent by the House. We make arrangements for members to be able to participate in select committee business where they have a particular interest. The Leader of the House is often able to indicate on a confidential basis where he thinks the legislative programme is going, and to indicate some priorities that the Government sees on different sorts of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276e6d437b26946cb9159f8bce849009c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: What is your point, Mr Brownlee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b2928dc400142b2acd14d325edd1dae\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: My point is this. The accusation was that somehow I have welshed on the deal that was made on the day. The deal was that, provided that United Future had no objection, because United Future is like a sore toe to the Government\u2014very tender and hard to make progress with\u2014provided that United Future was happy with arrangements around the bill, then it could progress through all stages today. Leave would be sought at the start of the proceedings that there be a second reading, and that we then progress to the third reading with no debate and a vote. All that we asked for was some consideration of local Christchurch members\u2019 interest in speaking on this bill, and that there be another 30 minutes of contribution from members who wanted to make it. The Government, in the sort of bloody-minded approach that it takes to all these things, decided to refuse that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI suggest to the Deputy Leader of the House that he might like to get on the blower to his superior, the Leader of the House, and ask whether he thinks some of the arrangements he has been discussing with us\u2014that are known to me and to our senior whip and to no one else in our party\u2014are likely to progress if he keeps up this sort of attitude. There is no doubt that people listening to this will be absolutely flabbergasted by the utter waste of time that has gone on here tonight. It could have all been fixed if there was just as much goodwill from the Government to a members\u2019 day piece of legislation as the Opposition is routinely required to show to the Government in the advance of its own business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWith regard to the impugning of my integrity, I do take offence, and I ask the Chair to indicate an action to the member concerned, to put that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00221587f863ad8c4f85843dee61ae20b118\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221587f863ad8c4f85843dee61ae20b118\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for that, and I need no further assistance on it. There is no material in that point of order on which I can or should rule at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257fbdd2431924b989adba33e5de5e2e2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: But I took offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4876a86e9804709b03a88f792d3e9b6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that offence has been taken on both sides on this matter, which is quite surprising, really\u2014but it has. I cannot interpret it for either side, and I cannot interpret it for you, Mr Brownlee. It is a matter for you to sort out with those who have impugned you, and I wish you would do that. I am sure the other party would be happy to talk to you and settle it. We should not need to come to this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee8065cddb254544be3d9508d7813f2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee8065cddb254544be3d9508d7813f2a\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a fresh point of order. While that point of order was in progress, I had a look at Speakers\u2019 Rulings and I found two that are highly relevant to the circumstances we now find ourselves in. I draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 113/5, made in 1998 by Mr Deputy Speaker Revell\u2014a member who will be well known in this House for the acuity of his rulings from the Chair. Mr Deputy Speaker Revell ruled in 1998: \u201CIn seeking leave to table a document members should not only succinctly describe what is in the document but also sufficiently describe the nature of the document to inform members.\u201D My submission to you is that by suggesting to the House, that the document that was being tabled was the minutes of the Business Committee\u2014something we now know it was not, because the minutes have not been approved\u2014the Minister did not succinctly describe what was in the document, because the document was not what he said it was, and he did not sufficiently describe the nature of the document, as being a draft document, to inform members. Therefore, he was at fault on that score.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe situation gets more serious. If one looks at Speaker\u2019s ruling 114/4, made by Mr Speaker Kidd in 1999, one can see that a totally different complexion can be placed on the turn of events. I think it is worth quoting that Speaker\u2019s ruling to the House: \u201CIf a member is given leave to table a document and deliberately misleads the House by delivering to the Clerk a totally different document from that for which leave was granted, a contempt would be committed.\u201D The member purported to table the document that was the minutes of the Business Committee. He made no suggestion at the time that he was in error or that he was vague about what he was doing. He said subsequently\u2014and I am inclined to accept his word\u2014that he might have been in error in doing so, but that might be because, as a very astute observer of the Standing Orders, he was well aware of the provisions of Speaker\u2019s ruling 114/4, and knew that he had placed himself in a situation of potential contempt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EYou have ruled that the materiality of this is not relevant, given that it is essentially the same document, and all we are arguing about is whether the word \u201Cdraft\u201D appears on the top. But I would submit that your very esteemed predecessor, Mr Kidd, when he made that ruling in 1999, was well aware of these types of situations, and ruled in quite a severe way that members who act in this way place themselves at risk of being accused of contempt of the House. So I would ask you to reflect on your earlier ruling, in the light of that situation. I would come back to the point that was raised in an earlier point of order that the best way through the divide that the House now finds itself in would be for the Minister simply to withdraw his original request and to resubmit a fresh one. I say to the Minister\u2014who previously indicated he was not prepared to do that\u2014that unless he does reconsider in that light, the House is starting to find itself in a very difficult position, and it may well require Mr Speaker to be recalled to rule on it ultimately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00226ba29a0502aa44bf81350f5bed127ef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ba29a0502aa44bf81350f5bed127ef4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to inform the member that I am the Speaker, and the member will not be approaching that subject at all. I do not need any assistance on this. I have allowed the member to relitigate, in a way, my ruling, and I should not have allowed that, because there was not too much new in what he said. The member brought up Speaker\u2019s ruling 114/4. I did not accept for one moment\u2014nor do I believe that any members in this Chamber would accept\u2014that the Hon Mark Burton set out deliberately to mislead the House. You all may have your own views, but as the Chair I do not accept that he was in contravention of Speaker\u2019s ruling 114/4.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb86da8c2ce04ff1bf6eaef6815875b5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What about 113/5?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f161bc2bec7437b9317d00394d0030a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is the one I quoted to you earlier, so I was quite aware of that one. The Minister sufficiently described the nature of the document; he did not describe the status of it\u2014that has been canvassed. He certainly described the nature of the document, and anything else we wished to know. I am certain that all members knew that the document was, if not the minutes, part of the record of that committee. I do not think there is any doubt about that. But I thank the member for raising those two Speakers\u2019 rulings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022c40ee9b811b74c73a14313db5ad89f92\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c40ee9b811b74c73a14313db5ad89f92\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The first document sought to be tabled would not constitute a breach of privilege because it was described as official, approved minutes. However, we find that it is not that kind of document; it is unapproved. It is my submission to you that an attempt to table unapproved documents of a select committee would constitute a breach of privilege, based on other decisions of the Privileges Committee. I invite you to consider whether you would wish to facilitate the Deputy Leader of the House seeking to table unapproved minutes, which, in my submission, would constitute a breach of privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281216074f5f74705ae1da2d61c363c88\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Given that I value your advice, Dr Mapp, can I ask you, if that constitutes a breach of privilege, who would be guilty of the breach\u2014the one who attempted to do it, or the one, like yourself, who approved it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4e5c3858f3e456ebaa0267eaf834133\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4e5c3858f3e456ebaa0267eaf834133\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E We did not know at the time of the request that it was draft minutes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d32adbc56c2c4bf89c1288e7ce1c97ce\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That was not the question. I was asking you, because you had posed a question there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022796acb018baa4bacbfd69f7f7c859b1a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Surely, it is the one who attempts to table it\u2014the perpetrator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c852dbcc48284a47a03d739de3d44f76\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Even though you as a member allowed it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229183a4c5fcd143b2947c9d9da7c0fc8c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no one has allowed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225930c4ced5b541b1bb3545395162b10c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I think we are going round in circles.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002249ae2c24a4d445c1adefa9657cc2d31c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002249ae2c24a4d445c1adefa9657cc2d31c\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221065b9153b3648b5add7b677a8f78783\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: You wish to assist the Chair?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d269cce993643dba79e6d896c052a9a\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is exactly what I wish to do. I draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 114/1 made by Mr Speaker Tapsell in 1996. It makes the point: \u201CLeave should only be sought to table papers that are not readily available from other sources. The tabling of a document is not an occasion to make a point;\u201D. That is relevant in this case because the Deputy Leader of the House was, of his own admission, attempting to make a point. He said he wanted to counter the suggestion that, in essence, he had told porkies. That was his verification of that, so he was attempting to make a point. I put it to you now that, under that Speaker\u2019s ruling, perhaps he should never have been allowed to table it in the first instance. I seek your clarification of Speaker\u2019s ruling 114/1 as it relates to the sequence of events that have occurred here tonight. Would you like me to repeat that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6ff3b2cfc6e420c96258c9b525ad33a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I was listening intently to it. I am aware of what you have said, and I thank you for it. Was there someone else who wished to give advice on that? No, there is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00227cba3f3b70ff41848fdf23309be32248\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227cba3f3b70ff41848fdf23309be32248\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a separate point. In addition to the, I think, quite valid point raised by Mr Shirley, I draw your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 110/7, which was made by a very esteemed Speaker of this House, Mr Speaker Guinness, who ruled in 1905: \u201CThe Speaker must accept the assurance of a Minister that a document from which the Minister is quoting is not a public document.\u201D The Minister\u2014and I assume that the Deputy Leader of the House was acting in a ministerial role when he sought to table the document\u2014was quoting from what were allegedly the minutes of the Business Committee. I submit to you that the process that has been followed has been deficient on two counts. Firstly, you did not, as Speaker, meet the test of Speaker\u2019s ruling 110/7 in that you did not seek from the Minister an assurance as to the status of the document that he was quoting from, and, secondly, the Minister did not provide clarity to the House as to the status of the document he was quoting from. I therefore submit that the last 35 or 40 minutes have been entirely out of order, and that we should simply go back to where we were and carry on as though nothing had happened, because the Minister\u2019s procedure has been in error, and I submit that your rulings, in allowing him to table the document, are in breach of Speaker\u2019s ruling 110/7, and that therefore the House finds itself in a position where it has acted completely contrary to its own rules and procedures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022540bec154c2f4e4c9892f6fd33e3bee6\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you for that contribution. No, my rulings up to this stage have not been in error. Specifically, Speaker\u2019s ruling 110/7 does not apply to this case that we have before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c29d59fdfd5a4a7198a10f9ed402f74f\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: So he wasn\u2019t acting as Minister when he tabled the document?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bab9d4f076a40eeba3a8256428670a0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: He was not dealing with an official document. The advice I have received from the Clerk, and I accept that advice, is that Speaker\u2019s ruling 110/7 is not relevant at all, and that will be the end of that one. It was a tabling under Standing Order 362, which I have here and which you refer to, not a tabling by leave, and therein lies the difference. I think we have had a good go at this. It is now entirely over to the Hon Mark Burton. I know we are halfway through his second request for leave, but he may withdraw his first request to table a document and revisit that; it is entirely up to him. He can seek leave to rescind it if he wishes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7c76e50121e437c8fe868ab88102e10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7c76e50121e437c8fe868ab88102e10\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to seek leave to rescind the first tabling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eefa6fc219064d99b750321c03665770\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought to rescind the first granting of leave. Is there any objection to that course of action? There is not. I thank all members for their contribution. The original tabling has been rescinded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00228334c6793808487a847973985205ecf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228334c6793808487a847973985205ecf9\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House that at the conclusion of the second reading\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2e32ee3afc847649851ac0332828da8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2e32ee3afc847649851ac0332828da8\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understood that there were two stages here. He was, firstly, going to withdraw the original tabling, and leave has been granted for that and it has now been withdrawn. The second step was that the Deputy Leader of the House was going to seek leave to table the draft minutes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da3f575de9a442728e1ba6f6303734cb\u0022\u003EHon Mark Burton\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve already done that. I did that before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f924fc7bf80045eab2f38c4b5a57164d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: He did it earlier, but if that is unclear to members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002204ee5f121ad34b90ab1e5d7249d74a25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002204ee5f121ad34b90ab1e5d7249d74a25\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to do it again, because I have already done it. I seek leave to table the draft, unconfirmed minutes of yesterday\u2019s Business Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2b208d03374ab393fd9cd1a9a3e90a\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae56d0014b694fb9a2bf422022c6b4cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae56d0014b694fb9a2bf422022c6b4cd\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House that at the conclusion of the second reading of this bill we move directly to the third reading, and that the question on the third reading be put without debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e597bd5d86db417ba80055c7ce3e097c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course to be followed. Is there any objection to that? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00223f24fa4389fa4b8d9c64b3d8e9d1f71b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f24fa4389fa4b8d9c64b3d8e9d1f71b\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I understand that there is still a speaking spot left, and National would like to take that spot and have two 5-minute speeches. The speakers who will be speaking have spoken before. I seek leave for two 5-minute speeches.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278696ea64a9b4b1da1a0f7ae613c639c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: It is true; there is one gap left. Leave has been sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a129d925b64c2ea3e1a8303a1eb639\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a129d925b64c2ea3e1a8303a1eb639\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E As a resident of Christchurch for 27 years, I think it is fitting for me to stand up and put some positive aspects back into this very fine legislation. I remember that a few weeks ago the House cooperated and passed in unison the Auckland War Memorial Museum Site Empowering Bill, and I regret that the Labour Government has wasted Parliament\u2019s time in taking offence at arrangements that the National Party was very happy to oblige with to help facilitate the passage of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EPutting all those negative feelings aside, I think tonight is the time that Parliament should celebrate the passage of this bill. The Canterbury Museum and Christchurch will be the benefactors of this bill. I am pleased to learn that the Christchurch City Council will lease the Robert McDougall Gallery for the extension of the Canterbury Museum. I want to pay a compliment to the Canterbury Museum director, Anthony Wright, who in the past 5 years has invigorated the museum. I have every confidence that he will utilise the McDougall Gallery well to exhibit and showcase the very fine collection of the Canterbury Museum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI also take the opportunity to compliment and acknowledge another Tony\u2014Tony Preston, previously the McDougall Gallery director and now the director of the new Christchurch Art Gallery. Tony Preston landed in Christchurch some 4 or 5 years ago. He is not from Christchurch, but has integrated into the society well. He is a very strong director with a good network, and has the city and its residents behind him. Christchurch has now seen a very fine building take shape in the form of the new Christchurch Art Gallery, and that has freed up space for the Canterbury Museum to take over the McDougall Gallery. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWe come here to tonight to celebrate the passage of over 70 years in the life of the McDougall Gallery. It has provided much pleasure and prestige to the residents of Christchurch and, indeed, to other New Zealand and international visitors. Those visitors can continue to enjoy its fine works in the new Christchurch Art Gallery, but, in addition, the McDougall Gallery will be utilised by the Canterbury Museum under the very capable direction and management of both Tony Preston and Tony Wright. I have pleasure in being associated with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00229b4c697d1e424bf2be358ba8436a2178\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b4c697d1e424bf2be358ba8436a2178\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with pleasure to support the passing of the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Bill. It is interesting that this bill is before Parliament, but it is not surprising that we are modernising something that was set in place over 70 years ago. As has been discussed by most contributors to tonight\u2019s debate, we are moving forward now that the Robert McDougall Gallery, which was the major art gallery for Christchurch, has been replaced by a magnificent new structure approximately a kilometre away. Clearly, because it involves legislation, it has been necessary to bring a local bill back to Parliament, so that we can talk sensibly about the future of the Robert McDougall Gallery building. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EA number of Labour Party members have questioned why such a small and insignificant bill needs to come before Parliament, but it is a very important bill for Christchurch. The second point I want to make is that the debate surrounding this legislation will go down in history as the most incredible debate we have ever seen. I can imagine many students of politics and law hauling out Hansard and reading it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1be4bf4a3ad4fd8a0fa00f58b4a024c\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Night after night.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eea94f3e249b4d15bc0988e39f0c07d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014if they have nothing better to do\u2014with absolute amazement at what has occurred. Two amazing precedents have been established tonight. I am making a second contribution in a second reading debate, and I never thought I would see that. [Interruption] As I say, it will be read by students for a long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second, more interesting, point is that we have also seen, through a 30-minute series of points of order, the very interesting situation of a document being tabled and subsequently withdrawn. In time, when people study this particular legislation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290422ef19fd046b9b1c34fce1112c76f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In the member\u2019s time in Parliament, has he ever seen leave sought for untabling documents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2260653bdaf4c17aaa644c0f1b3270e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Rodney Hide asks if I have ever seen that, and I have not. That is the point I am making\u2014this is a precedent. It is absolutely amazing; it is history in the making. People will be staggered that those of us who have been privileged to make a contribution in this debate have made two precedents within a bill that was really not a major one. I take the opportunity of noting the two precedents that have been established. I hope, in a way, that the management of the House will improve substantially, so that those precedents will not be recreated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI hope that we will see the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Bill passed tonight, because that is what the people of Christchurch who are associated with the arts community want to see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EName changed to Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221e63ea6ff01942999c7b80041e370716\u0022\u003EChristchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a2ef45b5db140a9823d90015b100d81\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e59e796cadf34cb5995e99d5d0b27974\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Christchurch City Council (Robert McDougall Gallery) Land Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f30ab2ce2dbc4425ab526c39ba539316\u0022\u003ESmoke-free Environments Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c7b4c784280f40f8a33d26df41041881\u0022\u003EDischarge\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022b95bd1d72d69406aaff19e5a4ebcfbd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b95bd1d72d69406aaff19e5a4ebcfbd6\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E In accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 71, I move, That the order of the day for the Committee stage of the Smoke-free Environments Amendment Bill be discharged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022fd4e781dce29406c997950e8b989c13c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002279489c64e162470da6f01a30d302915b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000738\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 13 August.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225f37c8f7e0d34a0a9a1ed882bed6f2a7\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec78afd71d0a4b2eba2f0d67ba8d79d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec78afd71d0a4b2eba2f0d67ba8d79d4\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It has been a while since we dealt with this bill, but in the intervening period since our last discussion a number of issues relevant to Part 1 have become more apparent and of even greater concern than we may have imagined at the time the bill was last before the Committee. I want to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to the clauses that have been struck out and to those that have been inserted, which mean, in effect, that there will be no facilities available on sites for people who wish to smoke. That is in accordance with the Government\u2019s stated intention of banning smoking in bars, restaurants, and other places of that type. But what has become obvious in recent times is the sheer extent of the change, and the ill-considered way in which it has been thought through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E I want to give the committee two examples of that, and I am sure other members will have other examples to draw to the committee\u2019s attention as this debate proceeds. I have acknowledged the presence of Mr Worth, who last time we debated this bill made some very valuable contributions regarding cigar bars. That issue has escalated, even in recent weeks. I have been approached over recent weeks by a number of builders and developers who want to know, in terms of the provisions of this part of the legislation, what the new building standards will be to govern what may be defined as open space under this legislation. Inquiries that have been made of the Ministry of Health\u2014the experts who know everything about what makes people sick, and who are now said to be experts on ventilation and other engineering matters\u2014show that its officials have no idea about that. They have not even thought about what the definition of open space may be in the context of this legislation. That work has not been done, which means that the promoters of this legislation cannot even give that definition to the people out there who want to develop hospitality premises, and who are saying that because this dumb bill will go through Parliament they had better figure out how to configure their premises in relation to it. Here they are trying to rush this legislation through tonight, without that work having been done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAt the same time, it was intriguing to listen to the previous debate. The Minister of Tourism\u2014and I take my hat off to him for doing a great job in promoting New Zealand tourism\u2014will be put in a position whereby our capacity to provide good tourism facilities is threatened by a Mickey-Mouse approach to planning, which sees us put in place social engineering legislation of this type without any idea of the practical consequences that flow from it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ELet me give the committee a second example. I came through Auckland International Airport a couple of days ago, and observed to my surprise that there is a smoking room down in the bowels of that airport. It was filled with tourists who had just got off long flights. They were visitors to New Zealand, who were desperate to have a cigarette. I do not actually agree with that, but that is their privilege. Now, under this legislation, that option will go for them. I did not see any signage up to warn people of the legislation before the New Zealand Parliament that will tell first-time visitors to this country that, after a 12-hour flight across the Pacific, if they feel like lighting a cigarette in the smoking area they will not be able to do so, because there will no longer be a smoking area there. The question that then arises is this: what input has there been from the airports and from the tourism industry about the potential impact of this legislation on tourism? What about the people who will suddenly find themselves in that position, with one of the \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D leaping down on their back, and saying they have breached the law and are now subject to the fine procedures? Actually, those people will not be subject to the fine procedures because, under the Greens\u2019 amendment, Auckland International Airport will be subject to the fine procedures for every tourist that gets off a plane, goes to what he or she thinks is the smoking area, and lights up a cigarette. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThis legislation is an absolute absurdity. We have heard no explanation from the Government. The Associate Minister of Health paraded today as an expert in engineering and ventilation. He did not cite as the authority that says that ventilation systems do not work the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Ltd or another scientific research body, but instead cited the officials of the public health directorate of the Ministry of Health\u2014the \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D themselves. I want him to take a call and say what advice those \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D have given him about what we should do for the tourists. He should also tell us what we are to do for those builders who ask about how to redesign facilities in order to cope with this legislation that the Government is passing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ENone of that work is there. Yet, if I go back to clause 1A of the bill, I see it states that some of the provisions come into effect on 1 January 2004\u2014less than 3 months away\u2014and some come into effect on 1 February 2005. We still have no answers from the Government with regard to the issues I have raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022649d21e2f0e94e08b01d3a8c99e469de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022649d21e2f0e94e08b01d3a8c99e469de\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Deputy Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002227dbad86d2fd4e63bb4e4e4853164f72\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000747\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 123 in the name of Peter Brown to clause 1A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf3f7ebf2b194107b62f3d41945df77d\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Given the complexity of a number of these amendments, I ask that the Chair give the Committee before each vote an indication of what the amendment deals with. I know that Mr Brown has moved a number of amendments, and some of them are very good ones\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b1b5a5c28c4496083dce0e7fe2222fe\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I tell the member that the amendments are on the Table, as they always are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296001075623b4a6287bcabeae2c850f2\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Well, how can we vote on amendments that the Chair is not prepared to disclose to the Committee? That is a new ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b78ccdf60b084919acb70440ed9ce08c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have read the amendment out, as we read out all amendments. All those in favour please say \u201CAye\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63424cedee04ce087bd3ddcf238eb26\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I thought you were reading it all out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222142c4982be1440991071bcbdf7798be\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I will read it once more. The amendment to clause 1A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 123 in the name of Peter Brown is to omit that clause and substitute another. The amendment is on the Table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b589f55b8e94aed95bd9a90a733a209\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000754\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 117 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to clause 1A(3) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002257be88bf8eec42bd8a8a7da36801fb18\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ac4843bd37447788179d2741612cfea\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The next amendment is to clause 1A(3) in the name of the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor. The amendment is set out on Supplementary Order Paper 121, and is to omit the expression \u201C10(3)\u201D and substitute \u201C10(2A)\u201D. All those in favour please say \u201CAye\u201D; to the contrary? The \u201CAyes\u201D have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022068eb7d229844878a65f78c6a63fd186\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Before you put that vote, I inform you that National will be split-voting on some of these amendments. I ask that the vote be put again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2207022ee5a4b63b36f75c3934e9e44\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The previous vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4c39354a7354be98c160a3438d5260f\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: The vote for Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022003e2e6e3d054ae2adbc125a8a270525\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we have not put it yet. All those in favour please\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e361801436a84806afceea2aca39273c\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: No, hang on. Could you go right through the process again? We are on Supplementary Order Paper 121, referring to clause 1A(3)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002210000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fbda94922474e63bd4b2cdd65452b53\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment is to omit the expression \u201C10(3)\u201D and substitute \u201C10(2A)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff2da830f2a949bca8a6a81d87ea7731\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. National will be split-voting on some of these amendments, and this is one of the cases in point. So I ask that the vote be taken again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fd619bc242c4ba092ab986ff4ba3143\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: A party vote has been called for, so we will do the split vote at the same time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 121 in the name of the Hon Damien O\u0027Connor to clause 1A(3) be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225601efa73c5e4f798c27a49b92bff84b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 3; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000765\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 117 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to insert subclause (5A) in clause 1A be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002250aec219bafa4861b12bb62775716f78\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000766\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 121 in the name of the Hon Damien O\u0027Connor to insert new definitions in clause 2(1) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228408d720daff48969d4708de44dff20c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 3; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000767\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 95 in the name of Richard Worth to insert the definition of cigar bar in clause 2(1) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226e826cb0d11a410c869feb0536afa428\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 47\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 19; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 65\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 4; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000768\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 117 in the name of the Hon Peter Dunne to insert the definition of minimum air quality standard in clause 2(1) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222146b8a740f24496997a3d915cbc5525\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000769\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 120 in the name of Steve Chadwick to insert the definition of tobacco packages in a visible stack in clause 2(1) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022943f2d03db4a4a9ba52adc8101a54b6d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 3; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000770\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Sue Kedgley to clause 2(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000771\u0022\u003Eto insert, after the definition of taxi, the following definition:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000772\u0022\u003Etoy tobacco product means an object that\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000773\u0022\u003E(a)\tlooks like a tobacco product or a smoker\u2019s pipe, and can be used to simulate smoking; but\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000774\u0022\u003E(b)\tcannot be smoked, is not confectionary, and has a primary purpose other than to help people stop smoking.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221ced49ade9a34aacbd08c9cf0e2f78ff\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 55\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224c64934160eb41f7a6c93ab4b0231770\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 64\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ELabour 52; New Zealand National 3; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c108280388774eefb4b511609165a0b2\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Part II of principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022542ea92d1cdb4f118492d122e0efb19a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022542ea92d1cdb4f118492d122e0efb19a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am trying to work out what Part 2 is. What do you believe it to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b19cf574104e18b41566763bd94af6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Part 2 is clauses 3 to 7A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c31b73c66fa408b8e6b85fd9be27692\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest to you that I have not seen a bill put out in the way that this one is. It appears to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022951fa18d657f408f8e4e47af18b166d1\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If you haven\u2019t, we haven\u2019t.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3c0d5f849844dff884e3d08bf98e17d\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I have not, either. It appears that it is an attempt by the Government to limit debate. If I understand it correctly, a part by part motion has been moved. If that is the case, when we look at the bill we see we have Part 2, clause 3, and then a Part 1, with clauses 4 to 7A. We then have a Part 3 and a Part 2A. I put it to you that the instruction to the Committee was to take the bill part by part, and therefore what we should do is to have a debate now on Part 2, which is clause 3. Then we should go back to something that is headed Part 1. Although the fact is that Part 1 follows Part 2, nothing in the Standing Orders states that there should not be a separate debate on it. We have said we would consider the bill part by part, and those are separate parts. The Government cannot just renumber parts and then limit debate. From your point of view, Madam Chair, you should adopt whatever ruling enables the Committee to debate the bill to the greatest possible extent. So I suggest to you that the proper debate that we should now have is on Part 2, which is clause 3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022aed5300379d54278a15f99a66e25c2b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022aed5300379d54278a15f99a66e25c2b5\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to support the views that have been offered to you in connection with the clear understanding of the parties that this would be a part by part debate, which has the consequence that Mr Prebble has referred to. In the world of choices, where there are choices you should prefer the choice that permits the greatest possible debating time on what are clearly significant issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00222cad0deae8204812a3a13bda77a8d827\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222cad0deae8204812a3a13bda77a8d827\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I concur with the point that was raised earlier. This bill is highly confusing in its drafting. We have had a title debate and a Part 1 debate, and we now have a Part 2 debate beginning. However, if you look at the way in which the bill is physically laid out you will see that \u201CPart 1 Preliminary\u201D and \u201CPart 2 Amendments to Part II of principal Act\u201D are in bold type, signalling that they are separating the bill out. \u201CPart 1 Smoke-free workplaces and public areas\u201D, is equally in bold type, and then we go to \u201CPart 3 Other amendments\u201D. On page 2 of the contents page \u201CPart 2A Powers of enforcement officers\u201D is in bold type. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EEither this is the most extraordinarily inept drafting that we have seen in a long time or it is a case of trying to stifle debate on what is not a particularly lengthy bill. As I look at the totality of the bill, I see that if we were to take it clause by clause, there are still only something like 12 clauses in the bill. We could be looking at 12 separate debates. According to the way in which the bill is crafted at the moment there will be something like four debates, but then there are at least one or two other parts within parts. The issue that needs to be resolved\u2014I think in the interests of good order as much as anything else, given that this is a controversial and complex matter\u2014is whether you will allow a separate debate, as Mr Prebble has suggested, on Part 2, on the new Part 1, and then on Part 3, and so on, or whether you will rule that, given the way in which the bill is drafted, we should allow for the widest possible debate on whatever parts of the bill we are debating, and that there will not be an early acceptance of closures. A range of views needs to be expressed. The bill is confusing in its drafting, in just its physical layout for a start. Members have a right to debate these contentious issues thoroughly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2ca5b337c8c4956a586f11bf071e5c2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2ca5b337c8c4956a586f11bf071e5c2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E I think those issues were acknowledged at the start of the debate on this bill. There was very wide-ranging debate on the first part. Perhaps the member was not here for that debate, which went for quite some time on the basis of that agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022157a573248b74c78bbce0cb637f24fb6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022157a573248b74c78bbce0cb637f24fb6\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The Committee has been instructed to consider the bill part by part. The bill is drafted in three parts. Part 2 of the bill, amongst other things, substitutes a Part 1 heading in the principal Act. That Part 1 heading is an amendment to the principal Act, not a separate part of the bill. Part 2 encompasses clauses 3 to 7A, as I stated, and that is what the Committee has been instructed by the House to consider. That gives lots of time for debate. We will debate Part 2, clauses 3 to 7A.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022137478cbbf334df6a8c421d78cd750ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022137478cbbf334df6a8c421d78cd750ee\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Your previous ruling was about the structure of the part. This point of order is about the scope of the debate. Mr Damien O\u2019Connor alleged that there had been a wide-ranging debate in which everyone had been able to take part. That is simply not correct. I sought a call on Part 1 and had not spoken on the bill previously, but the closure was accepted. I ask for the Chair\u2019s assurance that there will be a full debate on this part, to the point that everyone who seeks to contribute will have the opportunity to do so, at least once, anyway. That did not happen with regard to Part 1. I seek your assurance that every person who seeks a call and who has not had a previous call will have that call accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022fdc2888cf8a744f78a1be547bebcf5d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fdc2888cf8a744f78a1be547bebcf5d2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I take the member\u2019s point. I note that there were 23 calls on the previous part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u002205f7692f63fe4d5a93a34172c2da7307\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205f7692f63fe4d5a93a34172c2da7307\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Following the logic that you have just given us, I think that your ruling is that only Part 2 and Part 2A are in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af59a3859506470280c8ef82f68b5553\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221043ad97cd5b46378bff87d733075093\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am just telling you that that is what the bill is. Either one accepts that there is Part 1 and Part 3 as you are putting it, or the logic is that there is Part 1, which is clause 1A and 2, then Part 2, which is either clause 3 or, as I read it, goes all the way through from clause 3 to clause 12\u2014which, of course, would be an outrage\u2014and then Part 2A. The instruction of the House was to take the bill on every part. It did not say we should ignore some parts, and it is not for you to decide to ignore some parts. I ask you to reconsider this matter, because, if you do not, I think we should call back the Speaker. This appears to be an attempt by the executive, by means of quite extraordinary drafting, to prevent the Committee from being able to debate every part that has been put. Unless I have misunderstood the situation\u2014and you can read the motion out to me\u2014it is my understanding that we had a motion that instructed the Committee to take the bill part by part. Those were the words. The parts are there, and the fact that they are out of order cannot matter. Perhaps you will not take Part 2A; perhaps you were going to decide that that is not a part. I would really like to know what you think the parts of this bill are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703575733c2d4223abd6fe341a3394fa\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already indicated that, and it is not up to me to distinguish the parts. The parts are very clearly set out in the bill, as I have already ruled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022dd686fd8f96f4a40b5f935e8fbe68213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dd686fd8f96f4a40b5f935e8fbe68213\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022775defddd6fa4763b07651e8cd739309\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be6a30a7f8974bf0aa9190a8eceb6e7e\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am challenging your ruling, and I am asking for the Speaker to come back, because to have the Chair just sit there and say it is not for her to say what the parts are is unsatisfactory. I am looking at the motion, and I see it states that the Committee was to debate the bill \u201Cpart by part\u201D. Here are some other parts. Why has the Chair decided that some parts count and some do not? We have never had a ruling like that from a Chair before.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218b0c9c6ea90487cbcf305d241559d70\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have given the ruling very clearly. Would the member like to move for the Speaker to be recalled?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bdd42956dfc4f3d9122a89f970332f5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. If you are not prepared to give us an explanation as to why some parts do not count, perhaps we should have the Speaker back to let us know why some parts do not count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fc1222e8cfc4ebb957df3e4f2adc430\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has the right to so move.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00224d547833bea64ff0a9fba4347d23dad7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224d547833bea64ff0a9fba4347d23dad7\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Speaker be recalled to give a ruling on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to, and House resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8e0c6b105bb4b47a21b8dc306a03716\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00229470078b342342b3b28beac401bed3cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229470078b342342b3b28beac401bed3cf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, members have recalled you because they are concerned about the ruling that I have given that the Committee has been instructed to consider the bill part by part. I have ruled that the bill is drafted in three parts. Part 2, amongst other things, substitutes a new Part 1 heading in the principal Act. That Part 1 heading is an amendment to the principal Act, and not a separate part of the bill. Part 2 encompasses clauses 3 to 7A, and that is what the Committee has been instructed to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7e2c0df2ef942e29865400cfc9c25c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7e2c0df2ef942e29865400cfc9c25c8\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I do not think I have seen a bill drafted as this one is, and in that sense I am in no way critical of the Chair, because the Chair is in the same dilemma as the House. The position is that the Committee has been given an instruction by the House to consider the bill part by part. It did not say to consider that some parts would be superior to others. If we look at the contents page we see that the bill has a Part 1, which contains clauses 1A and 2. The Committee dealt with that. We then see that there is a Part 2, which appears to be clause 3. Then there is Part 1, which contains clauses 4 to 7A; Part 3, which contains clauses 7B to 12; and then a Part 2A, which contains clauses 41A to 41F. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI put it to you that that is what the House instructed us to do. It is not for us to re-rationalise the parts and decide that some are more important than others. The House cannot know that, either, because it has not considered that matter. The second point is that the Chair, given a choice, should always take the choice that enables the Committee to have the maximum ability to debate the issues, because otherwise if we did not have the part by part resolution we would be debating the bill clause by clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe only rational reason I can think of for deciding that Part 2 counts, and Part 3, is that there is some rule about taking parts in numerical order. Well, of course, that cannot be so because we have Part 2A at the end, after we have dealt with Part 3. So on the face of it, I believe that you should rule that the Committee must follow the instruction of the House, which is to take the bill part by part. The bill has a Part 2, which is clause 3, and then a Part 1, which is clauses 4 to 7A. There is a Part 3, which is clauses 7B to 12, and then Part 2A, which is clauses 41A to 41F. Not taking the bill part by part would enable the Government, just by an instruction to the law draftsmen, to completely defeat the ability of this House to have a proper Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00221c44fb79a210456c9d9a9e7294298f62\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c44fb79a210456c9d9a9e7294298f62\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I support what Mr Prebble has said. But I would add two further points. The first is that this issue has substantially arisen because of the determination of the Chair, in the Committee stage, to try to close down this debate. If there had been a free-ranging debate that had perhaps a greater degree of liberality, the point would not have arisen. The second point is that there was a clear ruling by the Business Committee, which perhaps has now an element of ambiguity, with the element of hindsight, that the debate be part by part. It is that ruling that has given, it seems to me, the supporting basis for Mr Prebble\u2019s argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e52211da2467447ca09a22abb790c882\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Did the member say \u201Cthe Business Committee\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da1e9fc0a77043da9c94c6085cc1ce9a\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I may be wrong on that. It may have been a decision of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220698308789b43b2bf3fcae1ecb7cf55\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It was. The Business Committee has no relevance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227770d1732d574c559d3b984423e76c31\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it may have been a decision of the House, and I am wrong in that regard. But the substantive point remains that this was to be a part by part debate, and that is what gives strength to Mr Prebble\u2019s argument.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002298665d0bdcdb4cf7bbea9213eff6d746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298665d0bdcdb4cf7bbea9213eff6d746\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make two points in support of the submissions made by both Mr Prebble and Mr Worth. You may be tempted to the conclusion that was offered by the Chair in the Committee, but if one looks at the contents pages of the bill, under the heading Part 2, \u201CAmendments to Part II of principal Act\u201D, is the heading Part 1, \u201CSmoke-free workplaces and public areas, and similarly Part 3, \u201COther amendments\u201D, has the subheading Part 2A, \u201CPowers of enforcement officers\u201D, one concludes that these are the insertions of new parts within the bill. So therefore the principal three parts remain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBut I would suggest that if you were to come to that conclusion you would not only be seriously in error, you would also be in breach of Speakers\u2019 rulings. I want to share with you a ruling I am sure you know well\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 77/1 by Mr Speaker Burke, which states: \u201CApart from a few provisions in the Standing Orders, no direction is available about the form in which a bill for introduction is to be drafted.\u201D He then makes some comments in respect of amendments. The ruling goes on to state: \u201CIn the absence of a precise definition in the Standing Orders of the form of a bill, the Chair cannot move to control the drafting of a bill.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EMy submission to you is that Mr Speaker Burke\u2019s ruling suggests that the definition of what constitutes a part of a bill is, in fact, not clear. So you cannot argue, as the Chair of the Committee of the whole House attempted to, that Part 1, \u201CSmoke-free workplaces and public areas\u201D, and Part 2A, \u201CPowers of enforcement officers\u201D, are merely subparts of a part of the bill. They are parts in their own right. The Speaker has ruled previously that he is not in a position to determine the nature of the drafting of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ESo my first point to you is that you have no option but to uphold the point of order raised by Mr Prebble, which means we would then go back to the Committee of the whole House and have a brief debate\u2014and that is the second point I want to raise\u2014upon what purports to be Part 2, before reporting back on Part 1, then Part 3, and then Part 2A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to raise is to draw to your attention a comment that was made by the Associate Minister when this matter was raised in the Committee of the whole House. This, I think, has some quite serious implications. The Associate Minister told the Committee, when Mr Prebble first raised the point\u2014and this is a paraphrase of his words\u2014that in effect we have had a wide-ranging debate on Part 1, and the deal was that that debate could take place and we could basically get all the issues out of the way there, and then we would proceed. The inference I took from that was a clear direction being offered by the Associate Minister to the Chair as to the way in which the subsequent nature of the debate on Part 2, Part 1, Part 3, and Part 2A was to be conducted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThat is serious enough, in the course of ordinary events. But this is a member\u2019s bill, being dealt with by most parties in the House on a conscience basis. And here was a Minister seeking to give direction to the Chair as to how many speakers should be allowed on a bill on which there is contention anyway, and there is now contention about the nature of the drafting of the bill. So I think we do have a serious situation, and I do not think there is any real alternative but for you to rule in two ways: firstly, to uphold Mr Prebble\u2019s point; and secondly, to make it clear to the Committee that the widest-ranging debate possible ought to be permitted on this issue, given the confusing and bewildering way in which the original bill has been drafted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00226228bbb9475b4e0e884c9e19434b50a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226228bbb9475b4e0e884c9e19434b50a6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to refer to the last point the member made. I agree with him that there must be the widest possible debate on this particular area. The Speaker cannot control the way in which a bill is drafted\u2014Speaker\u2019s ruling 77/1. An instruction to take a bill part by part relates to the parts of the bill that are before the committee. The parts of this bill contain within them parts to be inserted in the principal Act. These new parts are not considered to be parts of this bill. It is not uncommon for parts of bills to insert new parts in the principal Act. That can look confusing, I agree. I did rule earlier this year that the insertion of new parts in a principal Act is a factor for the Chair to take into account before accepting the closure, and the Chair should do that here. Mr Prebble\u2019s principle that the Chair should prefer more debate, if given the choice, may be correct, but here the Chair has no choice. Further to Mr Prebble\u2019s remarks, there is a rule that provisions are taken in sequence\u2014Standing Order 296\u2014unless the committee decides otherwise. I come back with my last point and say to the Hon Peter Dunne that there must be a very full and wide-ranging debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022650b265224bd4d1b90787237ef5147f1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6164eac87cf45f2906fd45b97bfadfd\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Part II of principal Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a70b27cadf64422d8b9bd6fb7c73b8c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a70b27cadf64422d8b9bd6fb7c73b8c7\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I came down to the House only when this debate started as I had listened to the earlier debate in my office, where I was tied up. I listened to the closing speech made by the Hon Peter Dunne in the previous part. I have to say that I have a regard for the Hon Peter Dunne\u2019s ability in this Parliament. On this bill, I share many of his sentiments and support his amendments, and I know that New Zealand First does also.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220790e89204ed452daae22ef1597b6e82\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5cd548f08843d59848b38426a5ab25\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is that either deliberately, or inadvertently, Mr Dunne referred to people as \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D. Where I come from, anybody who referred to anybody as a \u201CNazi\u201D would be likely to get the thrashing of his or her life. I am asking the Chair whether that is an acceptable parliamentary term. I am not asking for an apology, because there is no one to apologise to. I am asking the Chair whether that is an acceptable term to refer to anybody by.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022defa6d3d15874f12bff5f44c3321247b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: It has not been deemed unparliamentary previously. Often these things are in the context of how they are said. The issue was not raised at the time, but I shall certainly consider what the member has said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002250d3a977928d41739699289d3778c21a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d3a977928d41739699289d3778c21a\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I take the point raised by the member. I feel strongly, as I am sure he does, about people who think they know best about the way in which other people should behave in this situation. As a subject of Her Majesty, I know that the member will be familiar with the cartoons of Carl Giles, the famous British cartoonist. Giles was well known for caricaturing people in that guise, yet he was also known for his virulent anti-fascist views. If the member has taken offence, I take his point, and will not make that reference again. However, I think it was more in the context of what is common parlance anyway in describing that particular group of beady-eyed zealots who think they know best.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00221a451e24fdfc4cd696bbba43b1c3ec31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a451e24fdfc4cd696bbba43b1c3ec31\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I strongly support Mr Peter Dunne\u2019s right of free speech. While the Chair has said that, as a general rule, people should be careful when addressing people outside this House, the Chair has always upheld the rights of members of Parliament to have total free speech here. The answer to Mr Brown\u2019s question is that for Peter Dunne it is a matter of taste. If Peter Dunne wants to refer to someone as a \u201CNazi\u201D, provided he is not referring to an honourable member of this House, that is his absolute right, and that should be your ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc415a34fb6743cf925b019fbc175c00\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc415a34fb6743cf925b019fbc175c00\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is distinctly possible that this bill will go through in the fullness of time. As a result of that, it is not impossible that the officials charged with policing the rules in the bill will be referred to as \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D. I do not think that we should give a lead with that sort of example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288139ea856ba41fb9929bb9943f2d408\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e613369983640bf978c8100491a8c89\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Points of order will be heard in silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b913065e58814dc4a45288a1ca892a83\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I suggest that that term could be used by the public if we are using it freely in Parliament. It is a dreadful term and, as I said earlier on, if somebody called certain people by that term, he or she could well be up for the thrashing of their life. If that is an example of what we want to give a lead on, then you rule accordingly. I am prepared to call the Speaker back on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b775b4a5533d48faaf03d0462922253c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: First, it was after the time. I had allowed people to speak on that. As I said, it was in the context of how it was said. Mr Prebble made some good points, and I am prepared to leave the matter there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022f5ab3328867a4b28b81763d1c9372ce8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f5ab3328867a4b28b81763d1c9372ce8\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Do I now understand that what you have said now constitutes a ruling that it is now proper parliamentary language to refer to people in general\u2014although obviously not honourable members\u2014as \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D? If that is perfectly appropriate language, I guess members will do that. The only limitation is that we cannot, for instance, refer to the mover of the bill as a \u201Chealth Nazi\u201D, even if one thinks that privately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b38dbc9d3b74d7796bd698df1a49d21\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, that has not been ruled. I call the next speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00227f4601527c26448eb56d73c5d289e849\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f4601527c26448eb56d73c5d289e849\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002280eab30de8274e7194391e401950f5f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280eab30de8274e7194391e401950f5f2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: We have covered this point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc29c44e91c3433093e4eedb7fe2e4e2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I must insist that we recall the Speaker. I take this matter very seriously, and I ask that the Speaker be recalled. I move accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002205e4547cf03046908a45e7386eddf671\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205e4547cf03046908a45e7386eddf671\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has moved that the Speaker be recalled. The ayes have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a1af626e2e34944b55eb2f4d3f7a50d\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022647ebf7a0d0544cd9959de52c748d2e5\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002203330d4275374f1b869a773f71cff1cd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203330d4275374f1b869a773f71cff1cd\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: We have had a point of order from Mr Brown regarding the use of the words \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D. Mr Brown did not raise the point at the time, but I have taken speakers on the point of order and have ruled that the words were in context at the time, and that it was not necessary for me to rule them out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebf6129fe347401fba6c1bbd4fb61f7c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebf6129fe347401fba6c1bbd4fb61f7c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Senior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I apologise for calling you back so quickly after you were last in the House. I did raise this issue as promptly as I could. I was not in the House when I heard the Hon Peter Dunne speak, but listening on my speaker. When I got here, the House was tied up on the previous point of order. I raised my concern as promptly and as quickly as I could. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMy concern is that the Hon Peter Dunne used the unfortunate term \u201Chealth Nazis\u201D. To many people in this world\u2014certainly, British people, and I would think many, many New Zealanders\u2014the term \u201CNazis\u201D is exceedingly unacceptable. If referred to as a \u201CNazi\u201D, many people I am aware of would deal to the person who delivered that statement physically and very severely, although that would not be my attitude. I am asking whether that is an acceptable parliamentary term. I point out that this afternoon you tossed out my leader for referring to someone\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad5c11a810ad43ae881e57ceb88dc2d4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, in the House; not outside the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297dd1bcddacd44a58bab7cf5254ace89\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: In the terminology today the word \u201Cdwarf\u201D was used. People call me a giant, and I take no offence at that whatsoever, but I would take personal offence if I were referred to as a \u201CNazi\u201D. It is unfortunate that we are describing somebody we cannot identify as a \u201Chealth Nazi\u201D. I believe the term \u201CNazi\u201D should be regarded as unparliamentary, and I have sought your recall and advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2b57f3cba284c79811b76b43d0deed2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2b57f3cba284c79811b76b43d0deed2\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, while it is unfortunate in some ways that you have been called back, in other ways it would help the House if you were to give a proper ruling on this matter. If we look at Speakers\u2019 rulings on the question, we see they create an impression that might have made the member think that the Speaker could rule out the phrase \u201Chealth Nazi\u201D, but I put it to you very strongly that the Speaker cannot. Speaker\u2019s ruling 44/2 states: \u201CThere is nothing which prevents a member from commenting, if necessary in severe terms, on the conduct of people outside Parliament, but the member should do so only if it is necessary for the argument being put forward.\u201D I will come back to that. We have a further statement in Speaker\u2019s ruling 44/3: \u201CMembers have absolute privilege in the House and cannot be held liable outside the House in relation to statements they have made in the House.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EIt is a question of free speech. I believe that, even if members find the phrases \u201CNazi\u201D or \u201Chealth Nazi\u201D to be objectionable, that is a question of taste. If the Hon Peter Dunne wishes to use the phrase he is entitled to do so, and the Speaker should uphold it. I point that out because it appears to be contradicted by at least some rulings\u2014which go all the way back to 1900\u2014stating that temperate and decorous language should be used with regard to persons outside Parliament. I suggest that such rulings are in contradiction to our right of free speech. Although I think it is reasonable for the Speaker to tell members that how they refer to people outside is a matter of careful judgment, either we have free speech or we do not. I think it is time we had a further ruling from Speaker Hunt saying that members have the absolute right of free speech, provided they are not referring to a member of the House\u2014and the honourable member was not. He is entitled to call anyone outside the House\u2014who is not a member of the judiciary\u2014a Nazi.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022011c082724fd4ab58e718e27e6fc227f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just say I do not need any further assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3bfc773bf714133a5b0cce542825697\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I am the subject of the comments, so surely I should be able to make some comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12e603d58cc4c258383d4999f677c29\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will allow the member to make a comment very briefly because I am ready to rule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002200e096b48f8e4160a7d14ece419501dd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200e096b48f8e4160a7d14ece419501dd\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will be brief, Mr Speaker. I want to give you an absolute assurance, as I gave Mr Brown when he raised the matter in the Committee, that my comments were not directed to any member of Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae9a1103cf9645bab3921692e07d9367\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. I heard that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1914b505be8495ca9dd79443cb4cecb\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the comment I picked up from him, I say that that group of people was contemptible, despicable, and the lowest form of low life imaginable, and I think that the beady-eyed zealotry of the officials behind this bill fits that behaviour. The term \u201Chealth Nazi\u201D has been in common public parlance for a long time. I have heard reference to \u201Cfemi-Nazis\u201D and other forms of Nazis\u2014the terms for all of which are out there in the popular domain. Those terms are not being used in reference to any member of this House; they are being used to categorise a form of behaviour and approach to things at the heart of this legislation and at the heart of this debate. I just wanted to make that point and to reassure you, Mr Speaker, that my comments were not about members of the House but about forms of behaviours causing the debate we are having this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022603438ceb1c64de2a554c362fe74b276\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I accept the member\u2019s argument on that last point. The use of terms about people outside the House is a question of taste for each member. I do not like that, but it is the ruling. Anyway, a point must be raised at the time; if a member is not present, that is just too bad. The House cannot go back just because a member was absent, so I rule that it is a question of taste, as far as this is not related to members of the House. I declare the House in Committee, again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d45a2e6d67546fcbabcf12ac70e0f95\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000853\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220b0ee46c61bc4314b0b0c47a0e9b712a\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Part II of principal Act (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022096492db065f4de0a28bd3c14b9411d2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the vote on Steve Chadwick\u2019s amendment to clause 2, and on the question that Part 1 as amended be agreed to, the results were announced incorrectly as Ayes 64, Noes 51. The correct result, in both cases, was Ayes 64, Noes 52.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u002262312b1491ac479b8cdd979fa991977c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262312b1491ac479b8cdd979fa991977c\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek your guidance. You will recall that some little while ago Mr Speaker was recalled to rule on the issue of the form of this bill. In the context of that discussion, Mr Speaker offered a view about this bill being of such significance and moment that it required the widest possible debate by the Committee. He made that point two or three times during his comments to the House. Madam Chair, you will recall that in the period immediately before the Speaker was recalled, the Associate Minister expressed some views\u2014ostensibly to the Committee, but I assume they were directed at you\u2014about the breadth of the debate that had just gone on, and it was certainly interpreted in this part of the Chamber as being some covert hint to you about limiting the debate on Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EBefore we commence that debate, I want your assurance that you will be guided by the Speaker\u2019s injunction and not the political advice of the Minister, and given the number of members\u2014there is a very high number of members here for this time of the evening\u2014who are keen to take part in this debate, that you will ensure that every single member who wishes to speak in this debate will have the opportunity to do so, and that you will not be looking to closures for some weeks yet on this particular part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4ed9aea124344cd8b13487e4df7a521\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4ed9aea124344cd8b13487e4df7a521\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I take the member\u2019s point. I certainly heard what the Speaker had to say. I did not actually hear what the Associate Minister said before, because I was concentrating on getting the part sorted out. I take the member\u2019s point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002237ecae004d5f4a2c9baec9a3ce3f1ec2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237ecae004d5f4a2c9baec9a3ce3f1ec2\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I am taking the first opportunity to do this. I appreciate that a comment I made earlier probably went too far, and I do seek to withdraw and apologise to the member in the chair\u2014the member promoting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fce8bcd528b402a994647d6583045a2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002298e9cd30ccb94580a0a78073af69eb88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298e9cd30ccb94580a0a78073af69eb88\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Two points of order ago, you said that the House was resumed, and I assume that that was just a slip.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b884aad228b94ee8a7c6332f840b50d8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member; I did mean to say that the Committee is resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf6dddb22ed74a4fb046f64470128aed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf6dddb22ed74a4fb046f64470128aed\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E In view of the lateness of the evening, and rather than disturb the flow of going on to the next part, I seek the leave for the Committee to rise early.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a4d42f1349542c68349611a6cf1c1b4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought for that purpose. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002200b48cd6cac94e50bb17b09cf9ca2cff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200b48cd6cac94e50bb17b09cf9ca2cff\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I raised a point of order a moment ago, and you acknowledged that it was a fair point of order. I got a response from the senior Government whip across the way, thrown across to this side of the Chamber. The line was: \u201CWhat a waste of space.\u201D That was what he said to me\u2014that is what he said to the Committee. That is surely unacceptable. I am seeking that that member withdraw and apologise. We are burdened by his constant interjections and foolish comments, and it is time someone took a stand on his throw-away remarks, which do nothing for the order of the House, or the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00227e8efd9be1e24f9ebd54c79df56163ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e8efd9be1e24f9ebd54c79df56163ed\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E This is actually a very serious issue. We have just had the Speaker recalled on matters that related to comments made by persons outside the House. The Speaker was very quick to remind us that they come down to matters of taste. Here we have a direct case where comments are made, I assume, about a member in the Chamber. Madam Chair, you have to act very strongly on this point. Mr Brown made some telling points in the earlier exchange with the Speaker about the taste, if one likes, of comments made about persons made outside the House. If you now do not uphold the point of order raised by the member, you create a very serious imbalance, it seems to me, which would not be conducive to the good order of this Committee for the remainder of its time this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022e82aa5b432b649aeb0ffe5e84d463464\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e82aa5b432b649aeb0ffe5e84d463464\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you Mr Dunne. I call on Part 2. All those\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d6b220270f843efad1604b2efbaeadb\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is not resolved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c30753b83924db2bcd4ef9ceff672de\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: There have been a lot of comments across the Chamber. I do not think there is any need for me to rule on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00226c126794e70a4832afbf1ed075b2f6b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c126794e70a4832afbf1ed075b2f6b6\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (NZ National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I believe you have an obligation to rule on it, because my colleague Richard Worth has taken offence. When a member has taken offence, the proper procedure for you is to request, in this instance, the chief Government whip to withdraw and apologise. The reason my colleague Mr Richard Worth took exception is that it fits a pattern of behaviour by the chief whip, and frankly this side of the House has become rather sick and tired of it. When it is personally directed to a member\u2014a specific member\u2014that specific member is entitled to take exception to it, and your proper course then is to ask the offender to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00225ddaca93494543e780133225a98407f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225ddaca93494543e780133225a98407f5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I uphold your ruling\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280c64e316a4d4d72b8597d093e633ad0\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: She hasn\u2019t done it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220694bc98cbb04f778bb3ef0d80fe6bd0\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, the Chair has made a ruling, with respect. The Chair has said there were a lot of comments and does not intend to take any action, and, as I understand it, the point of order was over. If the point of order were under way, then any comment would be out of order, but it is over. The comment \u201Cwaste of space\u201D does not seem to me to be the worst insult I have heard thrown across the Chmber. I know there are only 2 minutes left, but I would quite like to get on to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022330d49136bb44e1c9faf93c55b9d21eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022330d49136bb44e1c9faf93c55b9d21eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I did not regard the comment, on the face of it, as needing to be ruled on. I will call the next speaker on Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe0226e5ab53441e8f320622524d1e1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe0226e5ab53441e8f320622524d1e1b\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on this bill. This is an important bill, and I know that we have had a fair amount of argy-bargy across the House tonight. I suppose that if we cannot have that kind of debate across the Chamber in this Parliament, where can we have it? I want to say at what is almost the close of play tonight that this is an important bill about the health of New Zealanders. It would be really good if we as responsible adult members of the public could debate this bill in the manner in which the bill is presented. It is a well-considered bill. A great deal of time and effort has been spent on it, and I would like to recommend to members that when we resume debate on this bill, we should debate it in a mature and considered way. We should leave the name-calling aside and get on with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c783b0815e6c4ff3ae86bec54ad12d1e\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Look to your own party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225908ca0d29064b5f8e38b602c63cf21c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: I am including all members in that comment. We should put personality issues aside and get on with debating an important bill. In the end, this bill is about protecting the health of all New Zealanders, including some people whom we might be related to ourselves. Let us think about that. It is nearly the end of the sitting for the day, and I implore members to debate the bill rather than personality issues when we resume debate on this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022dbd7cc69d6ff40b39330059b91764df0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dbd7cc69d6ff40b39330059b91764df0\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I take a call to say to the member who has just resumed her seat that what she does not realise is that what the Parliament has been through this evening is a measure of the Committee\u2019s frustration with this bill. This is a deliberate parliamentary tactic to delay the passage of this stupid legislation, and in the time that remains, the Government should listen\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022801b20d0b55d4bb1915065e733a11f3f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member but the time has come for me to report progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.55 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200309172c9d0ab948944cbf81afca4c4c4f2693000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"