"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002274ac9553ad4e41039db8f399ebc2fc67\u0022\u003EWednesday, 8 October 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229cadb8ecd41046e3b95f119d66ba360a\u0022\u003EWednesday, 8 October 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228be4bb491f8c412e8680679b461176c8\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ee825ecce1c4bd1a58bfd469043e4a2\u0022\u003EUrgent Question\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002285bb3f05a4dd4c068a3482e943c550fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002285bb3f05a4dd4c068a3482e943c550fb\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I lodged with the Clerk\u2019s Office an urgent question at 7 minutes past noon today that related to a speech to be delivered by the American Ambassador; perhaps the most significant speech an American Ambassador has given in this country. I was advised that you declined the acceptance of that question. Could I perhaps have a reason for that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00225a908350aa404fe38f2fb4c47bf96549\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a908350aa404fe38f2fb4c47bf96549\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I declined it under the Standing Orders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u002292b5fa6f525c42b786969f89d202ba6e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292b5fa6f525c42b786969f89d202ba6e\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In view of my raising the issue in the House, could you perhaps refer me to the Standing Orders under which you declined it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00220518b6c29a11479680c3b924828a9b31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220518b6c29a11479680c3b924828a9b31\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I looked at the question and worked out whether it was an ordinary or urgent question. It did not appear to be one that could not be asked quite properly tomorrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b1c9196413a4c838a828c91e6130d31\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225040cbb8791e4f90be3f1e3a6530402d\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a851fee8f92421baedd434245590070\u0022\u003ESurgery\u2014Waiting Lists\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227adac8474da24235992cc2105b6cd898\u0022\u003E1. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: When she said yesterday that elective surgery waiting lists amount to 31,785, how many had been removed from those waiting lists without treatment under her administration, and does she think that is satisfactory?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb1363788d2f460a8396bf55bd71577f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb1363788d2f460a8396bf55bd71577f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E None of the 31,785 have been removed without treatment. They have actually been given certainty of treatment within 6 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93c4aac8a4246b89851bba81ecd66c2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Are we to believe that answer, given that the Canterbury District Health Board chairman, Syd Bradley, confirmed that prior to the instructions he and his board had received, there were 24,391 people on their waiting list, but there were now 17,191, and how does the Prime Minister square that statement with the statement she has just made to this House, and in the common knowledge of everyone else here that tens of thousands have been put off waiting lists, on the basis that their condition is not dire enough to require treatment now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd24587148674c689d98b5906c5780c7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Can I assist the member by answering as follows. Back in the 1997-98 Budget, funding was provided so that boards could go through all of what was called the residual waiting list, which had a figure of close to 90,000 on it at the time, so that everyone on that list could be assessed as to whether he or she went into a booking system, with certainty of treatment within 6 months, or went on to an active review list. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EPrior to this Government coming into office, something over 50,000 people were reviewed. The review process carried on to distinguish between those who would get certainty of treatment\u2014that is, the 31,785 people\u2014and those who would go into the active review category. I can advise the member that 32,624 people are in the active review category, and those people receive a clinical review at least every 6 months to see whether they have moved into the category for treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b4783942bf74da3b582a13e2407594f\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not true that in 1 year, 25,000 people were dumped from the waiting list because the actual points needed to get surgery had been raised; not on clinical grounds but because of financially sustainable thresholds, and that that is why those patients have been dumped and can no longer get treatment under this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e0167911d04e72b2915d33fccc46f0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: That would not be my understanding. My understanding would be that the process began from that 1997-98 decision and has been rolling on through, and that some boards, like Canterbury, got to implement it considerably later than others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed71684f19da4c888d101e767c6b5930\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister deny what usually well-informed sources tell me, that since her Government came to power 78,562 patients have been removed from the elective surgery waiting-list on to care and review, or referred back to their GP, and that that is because of the application of the financial component, which takes precedence, once the clinical component is established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c3924b759ae4c6086ab11c6eec5f038\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm any such figure at all. What I have said in good faith is that a process began a number of years ago, prior to this Government coming into office, to distinguish between those who would get treatment within 6 months\u2014and that is at an all-time high level, right now\u2014and those who would go on to active review. When their condition changes, their general practitioner sends them back through, and they get certainty of treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247a929d5d2ae4b26964fbc8fa2be9471\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that the Prime Minister does not understand that the difference between the 1997-98 Budget and her policy is that, as a result of the 1997-98 Budget, 32,000 extra elective surgery operations occurred; second, under her policy as at 7 May, letters were to be sent out to patients previously deemed to be in need of surgery, to be told that they are not in circumstances dire enough to qualify for publicly funded operations, which was the very directive that the Canterbury Health Board received; why is she trying now to disown the facts\u2014again? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215060548dd7b43a0b0bf870c61e919c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There have always been clinical thresholds set to distinguish between those who are on active review and those who go into the booking system. That was the essence of the booking system that was introduced in the last term of the previous Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a016d23b225a483e9206d0a1cc74bb81\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the elective waiting list, can she confirm that that change to the booking system in 1996 and the Budget of 1997-98 provided funding to implement the booking system, which saw 50,000 people reviewed under that system\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022180bb702be3741729f621012279a2d45\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have said there will be no interjection while questions are being asked. When I have heard the question I will then determine whether it is in order. I want to hear the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022047e6644364247b99a6878da8e24b62a\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is not beyond you to intervene when it is apparent that the Prime Minister has no responsibility for an area. Now someone on the front bench, one of her Ministers, is asking the Prime Minister about two financial years for whence the Prime Minister was, in fact, Leader of the Opposition. I have seen you in the past very quickly interrupt Opposition members when they are asking a question where you have deemed that they have gone beyond what the original question was, or are out of bounds. This question is of that kind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8c60f80c4f74737bc6d9fdcc57f80a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8c60f80c4f74737bc6d9fdcc57f80a2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not need any assistance. I had been listening carefully to the question. There was interjection. I realised that the question dealt with the period at the time when the Labour Government was not in power. The Prime Minister has no responsibility for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba2215c3035945828c97458a04739d2a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264bbd1ff14fd4ce88dfc6f2925ac944e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have ruled on the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221572f19e79b445ef8f61f757eced123a\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: There is a point that I was relating my question to. It is the actual booking system establishment. That is what the question is about; the booking system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e671ec40b0d457688def63b2ef3eddb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. I have ruled on the point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203e8cd0ba8c545e1aa962f7a64cbb5e1\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I just ask you to consider this. During the exchange that we saw, your initial ruling was that the Minister would be allowed to finish her question before you would rule whether it was in order\u2014which, as Mr Sowry has pointed out, is a new ruling. Second, while Mr Sowry was on his feet the Minister interjected on him in the point of order, and you did nothing. Thirdly, after you had ruled, the Minister attempted to contest your ruling. I have to say that when any of us on this side of the House do that we certainly get sat down, and usually put out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a09f26d1aa70404487f3b5fa328f60dc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, members are not. They are entitled to raise points of order, and I refer them to the Standing Orders. Whether the points of order are valid is a completely different question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420ceba83f3040249c8c94678dcabe3d\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Prime Minister\u2019s answer about the 6-month guarantee, is she aware of Mrs Grimsdell, who lives in the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate, who has been in touch with the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate office, who is in pain and requires urgent surgery to her hip, who has been in touch with Mrs King\u2014who, in writing, told me that Mrs Grimsdell\u2019s operation would be conducted by 28 August\u2014and who right now, at this very time, is at home in agony; if she is not aware of that, will she make herself aware of it and do something about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f42e7859d1544ee9aca3701fc7fff98b\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My electorate office does its best to advocate for people within the rules set down. It sounds like it is doing a reasonable job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b04ce5afc5da4c559924d9506115c9d4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table this letter from the Minister of Health, Mrs King, telling me that Mrs Grimsdell\u2019s operation would be conducted by 28 August.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221406642aa7594347bcee953a16ffb5d8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the letter. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216e8b41e86d14503b9ead3a8d97d2b04\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the waiting fund review implementation plan, which shows that the booking system established in the 1997 Budget saw 50,000 people removed from the list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224501c4bc217640588264b555d55178a7\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Prime Minister think that she and her electorate office are doing a reasonable job, when there is a woman in her own electorate whose grievously serious and agonising condition was brought to both the Prime Minister\u2019s and the Minister of Health\u2019s attention; if that is her idea of a good job, why on earth would she spend hundreds of millions of dollars on all sorts of illegal immigrants and refugees, and disregard taxpaying New Zealand people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bb3dd002cbf41b08ab4ee1abf4bec09\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I understood from the member\u2019s colleague that Mrs Grimsdell has been told she will be getting the operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fe40e1cb915947d0a47b2f8c24b8fd72\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u2014Urgent Question\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c38bf8a901a340f5b2df2e39ba422ebe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c38bf8a901a340f5b2df2e39ba422ebe\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want a clarification on your ruling with regard to urgent questions, as per Standing Order 374. I appreciate that you have made your ruling. However, when Mr Shirley asked for the question to be answered, he was referring to the very significant speech given by the American Ambassador today. I have no doubt that the serious questions raised by this speech will be asked by the media in the next few hours, and presumably answered by Ministers. I ask you whether your ruling effectively means that although the whole nation can read about it in the papers tomorrow morning, Parliament cannot get an answer to the questions until tomorrow afternoon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022708df0c850554f0a9883da75c82219a4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Urgent questions have to relate to something that has occurred. Urgent debates can result from something that has occurred. This was the opposite situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022402d92b8ef1c4af28553c450102eb4f7\u0022\u003EStudent Debt\u2014Tertiary Education\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d75bd57084646fe923739a6ef10cb5d\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (NZ Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education): What has been the impact of his tertiary education policies on student debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00221b3c4c49616b40769bdb01fbe67aee10\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b3c4c49616b40769bdb01fbe67aee10\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E The latest student loan scheme annual report, presented to the House today, shows a $2.6 billion fall in forecast debt by 2020. Officials report that the main contributing factors to the decrease in projected long-term debt levels were the policy changes introduced in the Budgets of 2002 and 2003, especially the triennial fee/course costs maxima policy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228aefd18cf178413883ff97c6e139c1eb\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the report also shows promising trends in the repayment of debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297fa1fd6c8a848b2a777fb85ab09ab6b\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can. We can see that the scheme is now beginning to mature. The amount repaid since the scheme began, more than $1.8 billion, is around a quarter of all debt that has been incurred. More than 120,000 New Zealanders have now fully repaid their debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297e00c38debe49efab66675b86fee34f\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Why is he so proud of his record on student debt, when his only achievement so far as Minister has been to double the total amount of student debt and deliver a student support review a year overdue and hopelessly lacking in any substance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e66838bd33e4e5aa6e9b912dfc663b5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Apart from thanking the member for paying his own debt back, can I say that the Government is extremely pleased that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286992044219f45bcb32530edd6957ddf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We do not need to have any personal comment like that. The member will withdraw and apologise, and just give his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d71a538fed1d4bc0b94aaa82bcc2dcc5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise for thanking the member. The Government is extremely proud of its record on this matter. Apart from removing interest from loans, and many other policies that have reduced debt to students, I have to explain to the member\u2014I know this is a very simple thing, but let me explain it to him\u2014every year people come out of school and take a loan, and other mature New Zealanders under this Government are returning to study in droves and taking out loans. More loans mean more debt.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d12bf849bb04fabbf70359a94b33d1e\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister be travelling to Palmerston North today to talk to students there who occupied the university registry about 45 minutes ago about how good his policies are; and will he also be offering his condolences to the vice-chancellor of Victoria University, who also had his registry occupied and had his effigy burnt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e14924617f4c19871994395f68bd2d\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: As the member for Palmerston North, I would love to be able to get leave from the whips to go home to Palmerston North today to join with, I think, the estimated number of about 20 students who are protesting, out of the somewhat 18,000 students who currently attend Massey University.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d28b17578bd446689ff5481b65e7c998\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek to table a television transcript of the Labour Party\u2019s advertisement at the last election that stated that, according to Colin Powell, they were \u201Cvery, very, very, very, very, very good friends\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224442e43477c44451b914987c0f4300d0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ecd74f867465493c9950341f57e3e4c0\u0022\u003ESupreme Court Bill\u2014Cross-party Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d64b924c7584fe396c367f6754651b9\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement regarding the Supreme Court Bill that \u201CIt would be nice to have more formal cross-party support in Parliament\u201D; if so, can she explain why she wanted to have more cross-party support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u002230caccf33008414b949af88cb21fad74\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002230caccf33008414b949af88cb21fad74\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because I believe that members in other parties that now oppose the bill actually support the repeal of appeals to the Privy Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d9a83d941794cf9b549cb3e5023ed42\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Does she recall making this statement: \u201CChanges of this kind should not be promoted by one political party in isolation. A consensus should be worked for.\u201D; and can she tell the House anything she has done to work for a consensus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb5b0b784202435fa5c084dc78bbaffd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do recall that statement. It is a matter of record that three parties in this House support the bill. I also recall a vote in this House in 1996 when Mr English, among other members, voted for the introduction of a bill to repeal appeals to the Privy Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227aa839e8f7a74f419f4bc1fab19a6327\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: Has the she seen any reports of support for ending New Zealand\u2019s links with the Privy Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f33701cca0f4c9390b26a453e3bacb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, rather a lot from a range of commentators over a long period of time. One worth quoting here said: \u201CNew Zealanders should feel sufficiently confident to remove appeals to the Privy Council. We should feel confident in our own abilities to administer justice fairly for all New Zealanders.\u201D Those were wise words in December 2000 from the Hon Tony Ryall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022768df27526504362a6cc5f35e96e8262\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: In view of the fact that only 63 of this House\u2019s 120 members voted for the Supreme Court Bill yesterday and that this minority Labour Government does not have a mandate of 50 percent or more from the New Zealand public as at the last election, why does it not take the proper step and have a referendum, so that all the views of New Zealanders can be properly canvassed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228af29d2ec09045e38bf55331572d1b88\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am confident that the figure of 63 does not reflect the support in this House for the repeal. I note that, apart from Mr English, there are four other current National members of Parliament who were in the Cabinet that approved the legislation. They include the Hon Lockwood Smith, the Hon Maurice Williamson, the Hon Murray McCully, and the Hon Peter Dunne, and, of course, there were many other National members of Parliament sitting in the House at that time\u2014Mr Ryall, Mr Nick Smith, Mr Sowry, and Mr Carter, among others. I think they are opposing the bill because of politics, and I, for one, do not believe that a change in the courts structure requires a referendum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb6e8c2a55054875a6fdba2b48ae465f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister was asked why she will not offer a referendum. She was not asked to try to read the minds of members of Parliament as at October 2003, which is the real issue that she is seeking to canvass now. Will you bring her back to the question asked by my colleague as to why she will not offer a referendum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286dfff578ad74ffdbbe89bc8f1fbaa83\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the Prime Minister\u2019s answer. She did address the question that was asked by giving her particular reasons for indicating there was more support. That might not satisfy the member but it did address the particular question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eeae87c33b4f434591cda62926f4e207\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. She did make some attempt to answer the question. She said that she did not believe that 63 represented the total number in support of her bill, but she did not address, at any time, the question as to why she would not offer a referendum, which is the critical issue that everybody is asking at this point in time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba1f75be2ac4d7ab75fcb5d77aa8eb5\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I was indeed addressing that matter when I was rudely interrupted by the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ced5a280c4bc4b63b748e812198793a4\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I find myself in support of Mr Peters\u2019 position. We have the Prime Minister claiming, as part of Government policy, that she knows the minds of Opposition MPs. I find that hard to believe. I cannot credit that that can be part of a ministerial answer. An answer would have been for the Prime Minister to say that she is so confident that there is a parliamentary majority that there will be a free vote and the M\u0101ori caucus can vote for it. That would have been credible, but to say that National Party MPs would vote for it if there were to be a free vote cannot be part of her ministerial responsibility and has no credibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295e094c1d85741e1ae77ce9151ddd2f5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members cannot ask the Speaker to interpret answers or put words into Ministers\u2019 mouths. As the member who raised the point of order said, there was an attempt to answer the question. Whether it satisfied the member is another issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ff130ef575f4d3aae3d7469a03cc911\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: When the Prime Minister casts her mind back over the last 7 years of parliamentary debate on this matter, and notes that parties that opposed the legislation in 1996 support it in 2003 and vice versa, what conclusions does she draw from that scenario?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226d7fe8f851c4778bb90b881a80fa670\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The conclusion I draw is that there has been a long period of time for consideration of the issue. It is fair to say that when the Rt Hon Doug Graham introduced the legislation, it came after the legislation had been floated as an idea by the Rt Hon Geoffrey Palmer in the late 1980s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EIn this Government\u2019s last term, a public discussion was released on these matters in December 2000. There were meetings with M\u0101ori in 2001, and further regional meetings with M\u0101ori that year. A ministerial advisory group was set up to look at the M\u0101ori issues. The bill was introduced on 17 December 2002, more than 9 months ago. There has been a national hui involving M\u0101ori on the court structure, a full select committee process, a report back, and, now, passage. I am satisfied that it has had lengthy consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffb66a6104dc4774882c9bb26040a38f\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that New Zealand has no written constitution; does she further accept that the courts are an important part of our constitution; if so, does she not agree that it is fundamentally dangerous for a minority Government with a majority of just three votes to change part of the constitution of New Zealand without having called for a referendum?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022640f8ba6cc0d4d40b24411618700a2ef\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are three questions there. The Prime Minister can answer two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200806dbdf14b44139fa0872e81ffab76\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: If a constitutional change gives more New Zealanders better access to justice in their own country, I think that is well worth pursuing. With regard to whether I agree that New Zealand has an unwritten constitution, in the sense that New Zealand does not have a document called the \u201CNew Zealand Constitution\u201D, the member is correct. But of course there are a great many documents, in writing, that are the basis of our constitution. They run across the Letters Patent, the Magna Carta, the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, the Electoral Act and many, many different written documents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022420395e6d6bb4778a0a029b22da580d6\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister agree that although the Privy Council might provide a good service for big business, ordinary New Zealanders are in general poorly served by it because they simply cannot get access to it; and what is her view of parties that put the interests of the rich above those of ordinary New Zealanders, while pretending to support family values?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212e533b77554465fae0f67aa108ed409\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have said to members that all members are entitled to ask a question in silence. Having heard the question I rule that it is not in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5ba2d8ff891438c91e8f49c86c19bf6\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister give a straight answer to the simple question: why will she not trust the public with a referendum on the abolition of the Privy Council?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228742224b3d864f82b09bec62782433dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is the Government\u2019s view that referenda should be used sparingly and that this does not present a case for it. I say further that if this country, 163 years after formal colonisation, is not ready to run its top appellate court, when will it ever be ready?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ef24af2af9741ef8be1776909df9893\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table evidence that the Prime Minister and the Labour Party strongly opposed abolishing the Privy Council when it was proposed by Sir Douglas Graham.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022897bc408cdb44cb5b7bf02caeba5f00d\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: In the interests of fairness I seek leave to table the release from the National Party constitutional task force, which recommended the abolition of appeals, and Mr Ryall\u2019s own press statement that he wrote 3 years ago fully supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aeedde67d70146bdb646611a26e3ecc1\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a supplementary question of the Prime Minister that addressed the primary question. It may be that the final part of the question was outside of her terms as a Minister, but the usual practice in this House is for that last bit to be dropped out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fefd5739efa4a2b9c06bde718663f72\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The first part was outside the original question; the second part was out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230e5f787c8244c32ba9327636c9a898b\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: In order to make sure there is a completeness of the record, I wish to table the manifesto statements and repeated statements from ACT showing that we have always been in favour of appeals to the Privy Council, and have never been in favour of repealing that right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EDocuments not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e31e35c4c3b444d18ec9c97cfe476a2a\u0022\u003ELocal Government\u2014Local Decision-making\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022058633264e864c84b9f22a8d72732f08\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Local Government: Does he stand by his statement that \u201CI am only too pleased to say that, as Minister of Local Government, I advocate local decision-making by, and on behalf of, communities.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002253debb8ef0184ec495e4144ffa1c1d89\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253debb8ef0184ec495e4144ffa1c1d89\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am only too pleased to say again that as Minister of Local Government I advocate local decision-making by and on behalf of communities. I wholeheartedly support the promotion of community well-being. Those are the purposes of local government and on that basis I can say that I am privileged to perform my responsibilities as Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ece8beb3bca4d1e817989b81aa4f2d4\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: As the supposed advocate for local decision-making does the Minister acknowledge that, contrary to statements made by Tim Barnett, the Auckland City Council is only doing its best to minimise harm from legalised prostitution by preventing young people from being exposed to street-front brothels located next to their schools and places of socialisation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224340fa832d6477ab35fde2c55580a97\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am very pleased to see that Auckland City is engaging in a process of engagement with its community in deciding the location of brothels. This is something that it is required to do under the new Local Government Act passed by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022218b4b5b5cd1412cb4fa1ca0e8587eb9\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen any reports on the responsiveness of local authorities to their communities\u2019 wishes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf2f03cc42cb408aa0e4eed14d39e42b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen a press release by the United Future party that says that local authorities are respecting the wishes of the people, that they are paying attention to what people are telling them, and that they are listening to the silent majority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd3930ec421f4f3fa5e6be2872a551fd\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister is so keen on local communities making their own decisions and determining their own future, why has this Government landed so many extra costs on to local government\u2014costs like alcohol ban enforcement, anti - boy racer measures, increased community policing, additional costs due to the Prostitution Reform Act, additional dog control costs, extra Resource Management Act costs, and additional consultation and coastal control costs through the new Local Government Act; and why should ratepayers believe that this Government has any interest in them other than to collect additional property taxes from them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b61fd826ba694fed92c6d5d914cde974\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: This Government has taken some very effective steps in supporting local government with infrastructure costs. For example, we have spent $247 million more in extra roading, $15 million in sewerage subsidy schemes, and so on. In addition, we have taken legislative steps, including the new Local Government (Rating) Act, which provides much more flexibility for councils to raise revenue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022293874aab4fc497eafa89bc23581b2df\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to his response to the primary question, why will local communities have no say whatsoever as to whether GE products are grown in their backyards, and why were local authorities not consulted at all over the GE legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022255970b07980459b8e82437ea41840d7\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Local authorities in New Zealand are not responsible for implementing policies that are the responsibility of central government. We continue to dialogue with local government, and we will continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208dcf47598dd403cb15474535afd0533\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: As part of his advocacy of local decision-making by local communities, why did he not support in the Committee of the whole House last night my amendment to the New Organisms and Other Matters Bill, which would have provided a legislative basis for local authorities to represent their communities and have a say on the growing of GE crops in their areas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f4752d6c034d47a0e53d945287595a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat to the member my previous answer\u2014central government has responsibility for setting policies that affect all New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf731244236543efbbd01b132fb1060c\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: As the purported advocate for local decision-making, does the Minister agree that it would make sense to lift the veil of secrecy that is currently cast over the registration of brothels, to allow councils and health and safety workers to find and protect sex workers and ensure the legitimacy of their operation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4e50fafb5349008cf29fa467a18637\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The operation of that legislation is the responsibility of the Minister of Justice, but I would be happy to remind the member that if clients can find the brothels, I am sure that inspectors will have no difficulty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b458ebe37e64be9834983dc398982e2\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: As a supposed advocate of local government, has the Minister received any suggestions that local councils should turn responsibility for the Prostitution Reform Act back on the Government by passing by-laws that state that brothels may be established only near the homes of those MPs who voted for the bill, so they can convince their neighbours and constituents that it was all a wonderful idea?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022516955aa5ed742c2b9c32364307dec2e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have had no personal approach on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d9fbd2358c8a428288d1f0fc6560aef6\u0022\u003ESmoke-free Environments Act\u2014Vote Health\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022073d24bd0b1347ada524c25ab97742db\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Has money from Vote Health been paid to ASH and other anti-smoking groups to: \u201Ccreate a climate of support for amendments to the Smoke-free Environments Act\u201D, to write letters to editors, to liaise with political parties, \u201Cvisit key portfolio MPs and Maori MPs\u201D and \u201Cmake formal submissions and presentations to the select committee considering legislative changes\u201D; if so, does he believe that health dollars should be spent lobbying for legislative change?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecb6d46d66a44a9e8e0e93a036e9c7d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecb6d46d66a44a9e8e0e93a036e9c7d3\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Non-governmental organisations receive contracts from the Government, including the Ministry of Health. The key goal of one such organisation, Apararangi Tautoko Auahi Kore\u2014\u201CATAK\u201D as it is known\u2014is to reduce the negative effect of smoking on public health, in particular on the health of M\u0101ori. It has, as part of its key performance indicators, submissions to select committees, and visiting portfolio MPs and M\u0101ori MPs. These align with the key objectives of the New Zealand Health Strategy, which include the reduction of smoking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260cd5cf4d30c47b08379f6d230e3faed\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question has been put down on notice, and the Minister never addressed the second part of my question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b15c89c9984ef984808845673d18ed\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard him address the question. Please ask the supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcf8165f8fb64d8fb3f12b595b864bf7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e60736180c9b47ae91d13538a23e080c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have asked the member to ask the supplementary question. The Minister did give a quite extensive answer, and I thought he did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e6b16d0929a47f38d1c509dcf520452\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, my question was on notice, and we are allowed to ask two parts. My question states: \u201C\u2026if so, does he believe that health dollars should be spent lobbying for legislative change?\u201D. I did not hear the Minister answer that point, or address it once.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261f3482c8870446cbc7e64b10f1b7ea2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the very first words he uttered addressed that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278282ddc68a048c09a5e5db7074ab4d6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Does he believe that it is acceptable for civil servants to lobby members of Parliament for a law change; if not, does he think it acceptable for civil servants to pay supposedly independent interest groups to lobby MPs on their behalf?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268c0480ffc474119826949382b61b034\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has contracts with a number of non-governmental organisations and other organisations up and down the country. For example, the Accident Compensation Corporation has a strategic partnership with Federated Farmers to run farm-safe programmes. That does not eliminate them or prevent them from bringing their views to Parliament. The same can be said for Government funding that goes through to private hospitals. The fact that we fund them for services does not prevent them from bringing their views to parliamentarians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212a239303f514893ab51bc1efa26d55a\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to consider very carefully whether the Minister has addressed the question. He certainly addressed it in that he opened his mouth and a pile of words fell out, but I ask whether he has, in all fairness to Parliament, addressed the question. It is an extremely important one. The question is whether the Government should be paying outside organisations to lobby MPs, particularly Opposition MPs, to support its legislation. To suggest that the Accident Compensation Corporation contracting Federated Farmers to run safety programmes covering various farm vehicles and other machinery activities is in any way comparable to the sort of activity that Mr Hide\u2019s question is pitched at is, to say the least, a stretch of the imagination. The Minister should answer very clearly. He was asked a simple question, which could have been answered with yes or no, and that is what he should give the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b28513d076bd4f3286946b3bde4bea3b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: No doubt a point of order would have been raised had the answer been given in that form. We are back in the same old situation, where the National Party keeps disliking answers and attempts to litigate those answers, one after the other. An answer was certainly given. But it shows the danger of getting into an issue of debates around whether an answer is adequate. A Minister is required merely to address the question. Those are the Standing Orders; those are the Speakers\u2019 rulings. This place, whether or not the Opposition likes it, is a political chamber and occasionally politics intrudes into both questions and answers, in my long experience.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cabca03beeff4ec3880cf35f9d5e8fa4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Cullen misses the point. This is not about whether some Government is engaged with outside groups in implementing Government policy. This is a member\u2019s bill. That is the first thing. The second thing is that I do not believe that any of the expenditure in these three contracts would survive an Audit Office investigation, but we will pretty soon find out. More particularly, the issue is that this legislation is a member\u2019s bill, from the member for Rotorua, and we have Government money out there, being spent on three private organisations. That is what the Minister is being asked about, and he is not addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242787fa6a149471b8745b176a04597fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc0dff670a54f589e70e78f6e7eb866\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cbad0e07a4d4f328c6076f5735d8986\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard quite enough. Did the member just want to add to it briefly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6f0e8ecf4ca4e609e013d7ea65a46f8\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I want to reply particularly to the points made by Mr Cullen, because that is not what the Speakers\u2019 rulings state. If we go to Speaker\u2019s ruling 128/3, we see that it states: \u201CQuestions are an important means by which Ministers are accountable to the House. For a Minister to respond in an irrelevant manner is to act contrary to the spirit of the question process. It is incumbent on Ministers to treat questions in a manner that is consistent with their constitutional responsibilities.\u201D The Minister was asked a question that was capable of a yes or no answer. He was asked whether he believed, as a Minister, that it was appropriate for taxpayers\u2019 money to be given to a lobby group to lobby MPs. That was the question\u2014yes or no?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225814769b082c4bc9889b2099272959a1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me just say two things. First of all, members may not like the way the Minister answered the question. That is their right, but it was his answer. Secondly, members cannot stipulate a yes or no answer. It is the Minister\u2019s responsibility as to how he answers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edc410af5981495dae68ee61cecf652d\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c10fe3e2fe3e4924b9a1b7ffd644ce71\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have actually ruled on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98abc1e6e8d4f54b941afc21fe975ad\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It is this matter of determining relevance. I put a question down on notice. The Minister did not address the second part, in my view. I then used a question to ask him whether he thought it was appropriate for taxpayers\u2019 money to be given to a lobby group to lobby MPs. The Minister spoke about other contracts whereby money is paid across to Federated Farmers to do something specific\u2014nothing to do with lobbying MPs. Then he said that that does not stop Federated Farmers from lobbying MPs. That has nothing to do with my question. [Interruption] There is no point in Parliament; we get shouted down, we cannot make a point of order, and we cannot ask questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613baf6dc821438492277db44c8d1770\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, I am not prepared to take those sorts of comments. I have listened to you and you have gone to quite some considerable length to make the same point twice. I make the same ruling that I made before: the Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222b2871cb2b148e3ac3495084eb7eaed\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why, when Timberlands\u2019 public relations firm asked people to write letters to the editor and to lobby MPs without payment, the Prime Minister was outraged and it was scandalous, but now, when he pays the piper to do the same thing with money from Vote Health, it is perfectly OK?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022334b049282f34c8b885d4449ddd889ff\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: The organisations that have contracts with the Ministry of Health have a number of objectives. They are not solely lobbying organisations. Their objectives are to improve the public health of New Zealanders. They have, as part of their key performance indicators, some objectives such as strengthening strategic alliances and interagency networks to optimise the impact of smoke-free initiatives. It is up to that organisation, with the Ministry of Health, to work out how best to achieve those objectives.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022248226e8ae984be9a04814533c0d3366\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, the Minister has\u2014although I do not think deliberately\u2014put an answer in that cannot be right. In order to put the primary question in I had to justify it, as you know, to the Clerk of the House. It is not something for these lobby groups to negotiate with the department; it is in their contracts that they have to lobby MPs, write letters to the editor, and appear at select committees. The Minister said that it is something for them to negotiate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a92c2d9a2c774a87ada83f1899f3f389\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is debatable material.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a23dadc89bd48d2a965abc303af3e5a\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does he think it is more reprehensible for public moneys to go to Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) to try to reduce smoking in New Zealand than for tobacco funding to go to political parties to try to curry favour and support for that industry in its efforts to sell as many harmful and addictive cigarettes as it possibly can to as many New Zealanders as possible?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fae2b4427364307855a29f935e27196\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as public money is involved the Minister may comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022affe629e07a947da9fc0a64b5ca53f3c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware of many claims around these issues. I would hope that no political party gains such favours, given the undeniable evidence that smoking kills people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d857a5ee1a743798fbb965fda8d0e41\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House of any other instance where hundreds of thousands of dollars of public money have been advanced to a private sector lobby group to lobby members of Parliament to support a member\u2019s bill on a particular subject?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220638c3681ad14e23b6046b19eae9fcb7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: These organisations that are funded through the Ministry of Health have objectives to improve the public health of all New Zealanders, not just to lobby. I am not aware of any comparison, because these organisations are not solely lobbying organisations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb65267d15d54d94bd19c57bddae8f5e\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not wish to be frivolous, and I say this with respect to the Minister, who is sitting very close to me. Because of the noise I could not hear his answer. I thought I heard him say that he was not aware of any other such instances, but I would be grateful if he could confirm that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a18bf08feaf04619b9849df5c83f5ac7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was too much noise\u2014I take responsibility for that. I wonder whether the Minister could just repeat that part, for which he is responsible as the Associate Minister of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa61d802865a4624b3fbb57fc466b11d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the claim made in the question that this is solely a lobby organisation. Therefore I am not aware of any such comparison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f937278090d4e51baa14e4518c31086\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister deem it appropriate that public money should be used for a member\u2019s bill that would see over half a million dollars going to three groups, one of which is a M\u0101ori Smokefree Coalition, whatever that means, and that requires that: \u201CNeither of us may during or after this agreement either directly or indirectly criticise the other publicly,\u201D\u2014in short, to buy silence using public funds; how does he justify that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eff18825fb5b46c0a05c165c09c2c794\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that that member has probably not come into this M\u0101ori Smokefree Coalition lobbying round\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250e61a136f6c4670a9e5af7a0fd952e0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What on earth has that opening statement got to do with it? The Minister says that he appreciates that I probably have not been in that round\u2014so he does not actually know. He had a stab in the dark, sort of \u201CI shot an arrow into the air, it fell to earth I knew not where.\u201D That should not be allowed in here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271b90fb0f8344a2bad1551252f214157\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just say to the member that is perfectly valid, but it was the Minister\u2019s first comment; I am listening now, and perhaps the Minister could come to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ab50597e413493da2f0670db94d5c3d\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: These organisations have been around for a lot longer than this member\u2019s bill. They have been funded by the Government to carry out these key objectives in public health. The member\u2019s bill before the House is a reasonably recent initiative. It is supported by this Government because it will improve the work environment for tens of thousands of New Zealanders, so that they are protected from the dangers incurred through second-hand smoke.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba98137c1e514c7b81b063b103a8558a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to know whether we are going to re-edit Speakers\u2019 rulings. The ruling I quoted to you stated that a Minister cannot answer by giving irrelevant answers. The question Mr Peters asked was a very clear one and, I thought, an extremely important one. Apparently, this contract has a clause in it whereby, for ever more, this organisation can never criticise the Government. The Minister was asked whether the Government is putting out contracts to interest groups, saying to them that here is a bundle of money, and one of the things that they must agree is that from now on they will never criticise the Government. The Minister did not address that question at all, in no shape. Mr Peters might as well not have bothered to ask his question. Everything the Minister told us was completely irrelevant to that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241ab0de5907148b594bda7c808c88cb7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made his point. I am sure he realises that he has made his point. But the Minister did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e14a400e47547e983b0397f509d5e7a\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not saying that. What I am saying is that Speakers\u2019 rulings actually say that a Minister is accountable to the House, and for a Minister to respond in an irrelevant manner is to act contrary to the spirit of question time. That was a ruling by Speaker Gray. But I am now saying to you that your rulings are saying that Ministers can get up and give any irrelevant answer, provided they can claim that they are addressing the question. In this case, all that the Minister had to do was mention there is a lobby group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022578a43fc50bb4735a4086a5b6726fbc0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot assume that, and, of course, he is perfectly correct in saying that Ministers cannot do that. I listened very carefully to the answer. I judged that it was addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8abae9059a4c01b956c4063a827994\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Is it appropriate for taxpayer money to be used to lobby for a member\u2019s bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c811dfb81283492aa04c1ebc4d6211cd\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I consider that it is appropriate for taxpayers\u2019 money to be used to carry out the objectives of the primary health strategy in this country. The Government has laid down some key objectives in its health goals for this country. We must support that through taxpayer funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225950c5c1cbf94d0190e618787e3a7533\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Has he or any ministry officials received a report on which members of Parliament, ASH, and the Smokefree Coalition have lobbied for the support of the member\u2019s bill, in fulfilment of the Government contracts; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a98dfb2a01a6443bbc130e8638564347\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have not received a report on that, and I do not expect to receive one. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb9b322e4b6b4ec5a7f4a1fce68cf4d0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Members cannot have it both ways. When a specific question is asked and a specific answer is given, it is an answer to the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cace04e12524ff5adc4837299339f87\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: On what date did he learn that the Ministry of Health had paid the M\u0101ori Smokefree Coalition to \u201Cvisit key portfolio MPs and M\u0101ori MPs\u201D to lobby them in support of this legislative change, as a performance indicator; and where in his Vote Health has that money come from?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295262e931ece4f31877a9f5773fb4cef\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I was made aware this morning of the inclusion in the contracts of references to this particular bill. I am aware of a large number of questions that have been asked of the ministry about funding for a wide range of organisations involved in the promotion of public health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282167dd5f7f443a6a7adf177fab67610\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s earlier answer that he does not expect to receive a report on which MPs were lobbied, how will he determine whether the contract that was signed was actually carried out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022901c15ad21fb4a91b23ed6eafff01175\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I expect to get advice and to have assessed the key objectives, which are to strengthen and increase the level of community action on smoke-free issues. Mr Speaker, I am sure, will be aware of the success of that depending on the outcome of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2aa2db264e249e88be860bcfc01aed8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the statements made by the Prime Minister at the time of the Timberlands incident, saying that it was constitutionally irresponsible for Timberlands to pay a consultant to lobby MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f076710db7584f358517c6db3e0d461a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4f6ab1c5f18436bb8ce45ca0ddee1e0\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Government contracts with ASH, the Smokefree Coalition, and the other group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f88184f7895a42279a077df69f15ebd5\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d57747aef4074108bee40b353dde6f1b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d57747aef4074108bee40b353dde6f1b\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In the light of the fact that since I first requested leave to table a letter from the Hon Annette King to myself about Mrs Grimsdell, she has just been contacted by the Ministry of Health with a view to her having her operation, I seek leave to table the letter again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022317c641045eb4f5a9579be2731030b89\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table the letter. [Interruption] That is slightly overdoing the point of order procedure. The member has sought leave to table. He is perfectly entitled to do that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b18e07fb74244ae9bbe4e60661a44cf7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: 75,000 to go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfba26a83f5240a0a002d9e5cc333a28\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00227beb88182b3848a580648440be57bef0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227beb88182b3848a580648440be57bef0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table information received from the Counties Manukau District Health Board stating that Mrs Grimsdell\u2019s surgery was delayed because during her pre-admission check a heart murmur was detected, and she is waiting for a clearance from a cardiology specialist. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea0cb4f076641838d55d49ccf1277e6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All members will be seated while I am on my feet. Leave has been sought to table a document. Is there any objection?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225cfc5f1ba8124c788295d4f9fe33b7bc\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a07361c14865483e8938dd8815ea5d71\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cd39f9e9cca431e9eb98f1c8fbbee70\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I want to ask this question now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e13c0aa5824e3e9dbcfcac6a65d0d1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I am seeking leave. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022637008a92afb42e68a735923d2e8ed42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022637008a92afb42e68a735923d2e8ed42\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am now greatly concerned at the way in which private medical information has been presented to the House. Quite frankly, I do not care what party it came from. The Prime Minister is a former Minister of Health, and she ought to know that she has privileged access to information; that is the first question\u2014how she got hold of the information in the first place. But, secondly, to publish that information she needs a waiver from the person concerned. I ask her to table that waiver.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d3366f8f13f44faaba504efb878ccd5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d3366f8f13f44faaba504efb878ccd5c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E It is a bit rich to raise that point, when a question was raised earlier in relation to why Mrs Grimsdell had not received her operation. As soon as the answer is given, the Opposition gets all hoity-toity about that matter. I notice that no objection was taken to tabling the correspondence between the Minister of Health and Mrs Grimsdell. There is a word for that that we cannot use in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b25eb1c9a2594155a187ca97fe81e17f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: As members will realise, this is a matter more akin to the general debate than question time. This is not a matter of order on which I can rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00224993ed3f51ba4ebfb249cb5d2ded9322\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224993ed3f51ba4ebfb249cb5d2ded9322\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Having obtained, via my colleague, verbal permission to do this, I seek leave to table information that says that Mrs Grimsdell has long since had the satisfactory heart ultrasound screening, so what the Prime Minister is talking about, in terms of delay, no one knows about\u2014she never knows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce6c83ecb0844b79a3b1fcbf3ca04cbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce6c83ecb0844b79a3b1fcbf3ca04cbd\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I sought leave for the Prime Minister to table the privacy waiver that, because of the way she released to the House personal medical information about an elderly woman, I presume she has. That leave has not been put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00225275ebbfdb9241b7bc3eb2cac03767c8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225275ebbfdb9241b7bc3eb2cac03767c8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. The member cannot seek leave on behalf of anybody else. The member can seek leave on behalf of himself to table a document, not on behalf of anybody else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u002201afc84250714d3c9f7da12c558dfc3c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201afc84250714d3c9f7da12c558dfc3c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was the one who denied the Prime Minister leave. I attempted to have a point of order, but could not. I am quite happy to agree to the Prime Minister tabling the document, so long as she can assure the House that in doing so she would not be breaking any laws of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbdb0e4552d548a2bf24028d6d45c293\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbdb0e4552d548a2bf24028d6d45c293\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order, and it is not in relation to this. Please be seated. I asked whether there was any objection. The member perfectly properly, as he is entitled to do, said \u201CYes\u201D. That is where the matter then ends.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00227539f909151546cc9847b870ef2bdf32\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227539f909151546cc9847b870ef2bdf32\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There have been many times in the House when members have objected and asked for clarification. I have never seen anyone sat down for that. My clarification is that I am quite happy for the details to be documented, as long as the Prime Minister can assure us that no laws of New Zealand will be broken. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faaace23c42849ad8f36e164860dc9b1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry but the member does not realise what the Standing Orders state. The Standing Orders state that when a leave issue is asked for, the leave issue is put. I put the leave issue, and it was denied. That is perfectly proper. The member did not break any rules in that regard. He denied leave, and that is what he is perfectly entitled to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00220ad0cef711804a7cbda9036e4880e51f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ad0cef711804a7cbda9036e4880e51f\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Part of the operation of the Standing Orders is that you are able, on behalf of the House, to exercise judgment about whether information is correctly produced in the House, and whether things that are said by MPs are regarded as in order or out of order. In that context, I am interested in your view on whether we have now set a new precedent in the House, in that it will be regarded as parliamentary to introduce into the public arena, under the privilege of Parliament, personal and identified medical information about a New Zealand citizen. I would regard that as not fit practice for Parliament, and, in my long experience, whenever it has occurred it has been a matter of some public distress and real debate in the House. I suggest that you take some time to review the way in which the Prime Minister made those statements, and make a ruling as to whether it is parliamentary behaviour, because it is not only a longstanding tradition for politicians but actually a requirement of the law that private and identifiable medical information is kept confidential and not brought into the public arena without the express waiver of the person who owns the information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00227e69790f245e4be5bd22e33fba11e860\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e69790f245e4be5bd22e33fba11e860\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Firstly, that kind of information has not infrequently been tabled in the House, and, indeed, some members specialise in the tabling of that kind of information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285c27b7fae544308bf648c8ce50fa2c5\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: One example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5f6d548e8ee4d1ba97d8c54a3d6c66c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Not far from where the member is sitting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248eda428fa974bfab47e4c175d3b9482\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, you are very lucky. I want no interjections on points of order, and the member knows that. That is the only and final warning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265557384c2c541f8b22796edd4e9d90d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, once the matter was raised by Mr Brown, who introduced information that otherwise might be regarded as private, then clearly\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ede533fb2274fcbaad0a9c5c6434e9a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Katherine Rich will now leave the Chamber. I said there would be no interjections during points of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f7383217ec498eb65123dcda42a89a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, once the matter had been introduced in the House by Mr Brown, including private information about Mrs Grimsdell, then, clearly, other information relevant to the case could be quite legitimately introduced to the House in rebuttal. [Interruption] In that case, we have the capacity for people to mislead the House from outside by ensuring that only partial information is ever presented to the House. That can be quite unacceptable. Thirdly\u2014and I see Mr Prebble nodding his head because, I think, he probably knows what my third point is going to be\u2014in terms of the privileges of the House, Mr Speaker, you go to the Governor-General at the start of each Parliament to affirm the privileges of free speech in the House. Every member is aware that things can be done in the House in terms of the presentation of information that cannot be done outside. I have seen many members sitting on the other side of the House engage in precisely that kind of activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002237586e94fa6440f789e9ad8dd6e3b972\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237586e94fa6440f789e9ad8dd6e3b972\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make two points. First of all, I had the permission of the Grimsdells to speak and refer the case to the House. Secondly, I have in my hand a comment from Mr Grimsdell that since the satisfactory heart ultrasound scan there has been silence. The scan was taken some time ago, and they are waiting for an operation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u00224c1fc992b82b428fb7397ace86e3dcab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224c1fc992b82b428fb7397ace86e3dcab\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I was involved in the point of order, and I want to make a statement in support of the Prime Minister\u2019s position. We frequently see members of Parliament raising in the House individuals\u2019 private medical records. If members look at the statements made by the Privacy Commissioner\u2014because that always presents a problem to the health authorities\u2014they will see that the Privacy Commissioner has said that if one raises some of one\u2019s health details, then one can have a response from the relevant authority that tells one other things. Rau Williams will be a case that Mr English will remember. The House would have been greatly served, in that case, if we had had a prompt response letting us know about his total health condition. If a member raises a person\u2019s health record, in my view the Government is entitled to give us the full answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022188d39dd8b7d425c92b7408407d8d954\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Full.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bfba9fe1a224f17a2169f9e778cddbd\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member can interject, but I ask how we can, as a Parliament, hold Ministers accountable if we then do not allow Ministers to give a full account. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022929410bcc2f548119879199da4f4fd21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022929410bcc2f548119879199da4f4fd21\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I want to address two new points that have been made by Dr Cullen and Mr Prebble. I do not believe that Mr Prebble is correct. I recall the Rau Williams case very well. The political problem was precisely that Rau Williams would not give the Government permission to release information that would paint a full picture of his medical situation. The Minister\u2014who was, as I recall, either Mrs Shipley or myself\u2014had to sit and take the political pressure for some months, precisely because the family would not allow the release of it. That is the first point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EMy second point is that the Privacy Commissioner has referred to relevant authorities having the capacity to release information. Ms Clark is not a relevant authority. She may regard herself as an authority on everything, but she is not a relevant health authority at all. She is just a Prime Minister trying to get a cheap shot away in the House. In that sense, she is not allowed to release personal, identified medical information of a confidential nature. Mr Speaker, if you are going to stand back and allow that to be the new standard in the House, then you can expect to see the standard of debate around health deteriorate quite rapidly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9dfc308d4ac4ed7a9b7b664034d775a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9dfc308d4ac4ed7a9b7b664034d775a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Prebble has a point, in that where constituents put the issue of their medical treatment into the House by way of a question, they must expect an answer from the authorities. However, my point is that if the authorities are to respond via the Prime Minister, then a modicum of honesty is required. The so-called scan that the Prime Minister was talking about happened over 8 weeks ago. She left the House with a clear impression that she was still waiting upon an investigation into that condition\u2014a demonstrable, palpable, misleading lie. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224789bba8297d4419aabeb3c335497575\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise for that comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298ee4b46d580414c8f279c59db22584b\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: What was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d27e27ab562449b8df194197fa46aa6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot accuse another member of a lie.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f848c4e87294150a3e2111ced1fb6b4\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91932262d0246ab83c65bdd83744d98\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I beg your pardon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed88d8b5630a4c2da46841ba9f374eed\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I followed your instructions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eefe979b66294b0ab47dfac57b92f8be\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I did not hear the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022942641aa844c434bb655bebae9b11e5a\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00222f267b59c4e84bf097137bc212b5e2ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f267b59c4e84bf097137bc212b5e2ba\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I thank Mr Prebble for what he said, because I believe he drew the House\u2019s attention to the fact that once someone puts his or her details in the arena, the Government has no way of responding unless it puts the facts out there. My advice is that the woman concerned will be operated on as soon as she has a clearance. The advice I have is that she does not have it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022b48b92abf96841e8833a7dd70a75bdeb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b48b92abf96841e8833a7dd70a75bdeb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want to say to members of Parliament this. The first act of a Speaker when appointed by the House is to go to the Governor-General and ask for the right of free speech. That is where this starts from. Mr Prebble is completely correct; there has to be free speech in this Parliament. That does not mean that everything said in this Parliament is wise or is accurate, but we have free speech in this Parliament and it must never be denied. Whatever the privacy rule is outside the House, it does not apply here. It is up to members to judge whether they observe privacy rules. There is no House rule that says that members cannot release private information. The House decides whether to admit documents by leave, not the Speaker. If members think it is inappropriate, they can object; sometimes they do, sometimes they do not. Just to sum up, this is a matter of political conduct by members. There is no procedural issue arising. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe15419c16f7447e864ef302b9894f13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe15419c16f7447e864ef302b9894f13\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to be absolutely clear about what you are saying. Where, for example, the criminal record of someone who has been accused of, and is being tried for, a crime is not made available to the jury, but a member of Parliament becomes aware of it, would it be perfectly reasonable for that member of Parliament to put that criminal record into the public arena by disclosing it here in this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022acc324cf4f7449fba02150489d03c466\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022acc324cf4f7449fba02150489d03c466\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say is this. Members have the right of free speech in this House. They have had it all the time I have been here. I have three times, I think, availed myself of the opportunity of making a statement in this House, having very carefully checked out facts, statistics, and figures. Each time, what I have said has been justified. Some members have done that, too, and that is no change in the Standing Orders whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022b40efc5fd3af4ecdbfd1b5416bf3cbd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b40efc5fd3af4ecdbfd1b5416bf3cbd5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to correct you, but in fact there is a very clear answer to the question that Mr Brownlee raised, and that is Standing Order 112. That is a matter awaiting judicial decision. No, a member cannot get up and cite a criminal record in that situation. Standing Order 112 is there because we do have free speech, and that is one of the limitations on us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225459acf94325407d86dadf7f818b803e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member is absolutely correct, and I apologise to him. I misheard the original comment. Standing Order 112 does still apply, but there is the right of free speech in this Chamber, with very, very few exceptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c623f655690b45e2bb2cd788b18c8478\u0022\u003EEconomic Growth\u2014Small Businesses\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d01051cb60647d6bf459e647af21fd2\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (NZ Labour\u2014Invercargill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business: What reports has he received on economic growth in the small-business sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022085ecc9c513a4db4b524fade917f59ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022085ecc9c513a4db4b524fade917f59ae\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E According to the National Bank\u2019s small business monitor released last Friday, the small-business sector grew 1.4 percent in the 3 months to 30 June, taking year-on-year growth to 5.5 percent under this Government\u2014solid and dynamic growth, producing tens of thousands of jobs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c9c595397224c94bad449c76cecfa3c\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Did the report highlight any Government initiatives that might assist small-business growth?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5fd9805a54d465192d5ac54a5bb5d6c\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: The report highlighted the following initiatives as targeted at supporting small business: establishing a small-business advisory group involving small business in the heart of Government; the valuable research on the small business sector generated by the small to medium sized enterprise/business directorate out of the Ministry of Economic Development; and the recently released tax simplification discussion paper, recognised by the report as a move to make life simpler for small-business owners by reducing the compliance costs associated with paying tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c11798c9fee493b984463d5ecf2789c\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Given that in each of the last six National Bank surveys the most important problem reported by small businesses has been Government regulation, does the Minister agree that his Government\u2019s attempts to address business concerns over regulation have been totally unsuccessful; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228dd76d4b7ecf4d3fa584494e0ae95e34\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: No, because given a search of over the last 10 years, regulation always appears in the top five priorities of business, regardless of Government. I can assure the member that this Government is mitigating quite excessively the impact of compliance costs on small business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022be83294c16744621b50caa0a474ae8ce\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014Legislation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9ebbe258b94f6db1064b48bc2b25b1\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: In light of her statement that foreshore and seabed legislation will be introduced \u201Cwhen it is ready\u201D, can she provide a more precise date on when that will be, and why is the Government not releasing a public statement on the seabed and foreshore issue until after the Waitangi Tribunal hearing on 17 October 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00222275a94c282c498eb1403480d83b6cb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222275a94c282c498eb1403480d83b6cb0\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No. The Waitangi Tribunal hearing is scheduled for 5 to 7 November; 17 October is the date by which the Crown must advise the tribunal of its current position. The Government is presently in the process of analysing submissions and feedback on its proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b0aaa579d7c42d29a720282708ac065\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: What issues does the Government expect the Waitangi Tribunal will deliberate on, and does the Government intend to release publicly its submission to the Waitangi Tribunal?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca0bbac0019d4d3397a0622b667bb980\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have any advice on what issues the tribunal might be raising with the Government. Another Minister might be able to answer that, if that was set down specifically. And, yes, it would be our intention to release the submission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b42facfd8f564461a498975289eb093e\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Waitangi Tribunal recommendations on the foreshore and seabed issue will not be binding on the Government, will the Prime Minister commit to adhering to the tribunal\u2019s eventual findings as a demonstration to tangata whenua that the Government is prepared to act with good faith on this issue and not merely pay lip service to it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e7cf7b772e46e598b93016ebd21a6f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, no Government is bound by the Waitangi Tribunal. All Governments are respectful of it, but that does not mean they are bound to agree with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225458e83977e546d78fd731a70ea97f9d\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: After M\u0101ori Land Court judges on the Waitangi Tribunal have openly canvassed M\u0101ori for support in the tribunal\u2019s intervention in this issue, is the Prime Minister satisfied that they can still appear impartial; and does she still plan to leave those same judges to decide where and when customary rights might apply?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2499093d52049ac8f1abef255b135d6\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I would be interested to hear from the member, either now or at a later date, whether he has evidence of judges declaring such positions, because my own view is that there would be a conflict of interest with their judicial responsibilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022556f1691edd44cfa9e62fb4d3d43ae3e\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government approaching the Waitangi Tribunal on an issue that could be the single biggest Waitangi-type issue in a generation and, as yet, has no idea how the Waitangi Tribunal might approach it or what kind of submission it might put to the tribunal; why is the Government going into that exercise so blind?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229633cc0550c74634be780875cb6e40be\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is presently preparing a submission. If the member wishes to set down specific questions about what advice the Government has on what issues the tribunal might raise, I imagine a Minister would be willing to answer them, but I do not have that information today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e05f806fe1442ef8efb95d697718a2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Treaty of Waitangi (State Enterprises) Act, which, contrary to what the Prime Minister just told the House, requires the Government of the day to regard the decision as mandatory to follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720125f9fddc4a3585eab4e8a8cf038c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af364fea88fe486e85c0f71af9b9cab0\u0022\u003EResource Management Act\u2014Notification Procedures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022596d66df896f4013be1a980a366d3e48\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Is she satisfied with the way that the new limited notification provisions of the Resource Management Act are working; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00221b59b29f52c6444ea987ff0344b213c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b59b29f52c6444ea987ff0344b213c5\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I am, because affected parties are getting a say in consent applications that affect them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ef78011e6b34ce8baefbc3db6e09754\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does that mean that the Minister agrees with the recent judgment of Environment Waikato that the environmental effects are less than minor of an open-cast coal mine that is 225 hectares by 100 metres deep, diverts a stream, dumps 113 million tonnes of spoil, and discharges into the Waikato River?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222eb0e6d93318478fb1a74f1135162cdb\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The question of limited notification comes in two stages. First of all, the council has to decide whether the activity will have major or minor effects, and it is that primary decision that triggers the amount of notification. It is not for me to agree whether activities have major or minor effects; that is the job of the local authority, and always has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d8941eff4f4db7af70117edbbe9c2d\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does that particular example of a limited notification provision under the Resource Management Act not indicate inconsistency with the requirements of the Local Government Act 2002\u2014specifically, sections 77 and 78, which are required to make judgments under section 79\u2014and when will those Acts be amended? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ed679e1b07b4a3db1be798a61d01b9f\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Because I do not actually know what those sections in the Local Government Act 2002 are referring to, I would need to have that spelt out better in a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cfbb19c40ce433e8ebe8f97e01825ee\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: When is the Government proposing to introduce special fast-track provisions for the Resource Management Act, as announced by Jim Anderton; and do those changes that propose a \u201Cthink big\u201D - type approach to Government projects only have her support?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229852f123fa0346cb82c8bbc229d74a9b\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I respectfully suggest that the member is making assertions that are based on speculation and on comment in the papers. Work on improving the Resource Management Act and its processes is, I stress, permanently ongoing. There is no proposal on the executive table.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022132850b8a3f04305af5d89ecba2819bd\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Which environmental organisations will be consulted, in accordance with the limited notification provisions of the Resource Management Act, in relation to Solid Energy New Zealand\u2019s recent application to expand the Rotowaro coal mine; how many of them have objected to the proposed expansion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022066cc9662ad6429d93e214eec7662fc6\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: As I understand it, 22 parties are affected, including the New Zealand Fish and Game Council\u2014which is a pretty strong environmental organisation\u2014the Department of Conservation, Tainui, and neighbours, all of whom have been asked for comment and all of whom have consented, except Tainui. Environment Waikato is holding a hearing tomorrow, at which Tainui and the other affected parties can present their concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022156960f464df42018e088b86c15f206c\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister see any difference between the environmental effects of an opencast coal mine and the example she gave of \u201Cminor\u201D in her third reading speech on the Resource Management Amendment Bill (No 2), which was of a minor extension on a building; if so, will she instruct her department to investigate how councils are interpreting \u201Cminor\u201D effects, with a view to publishing some guidelines for them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d310bc581294eaaaaef531e4dc1c4c7\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The question comes back to the primary answer I gave, which was that there are two parts to the issue. The first is to decide whether something has major or minor effects. That decision has always been made by the courts, and, as we know from the debate that we had on the amendments to the Resource Management Act, it is determined by case law, as defining \u201Cminor\u201D has been far too difficult to do by legislation in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aad97067cf604ab2a7c3cd69b632de6c\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister still agree with her statement in the second reading debate on the Resource Management Amendment Bill (No 2) that: \u201CFor the purposes of limited notification, groups representing relevant aspects of the public interest must still be considered affected parties by consent authorities\u201D; if so, will she advise Environment Waikato of her disappointment at its approach, which excluded interested groups such as the Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society of New Zealand and Greenpeace?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227529a91520c944c4bdc8b5b80fa04e46\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The people who were approached by Environment Waikato and by the applicant, the mining company, included the New Zealand Fish and Game Council, which is an environmental group, Tainui, the Waahi Whanui Trust; the Department of Conservation, the Bush Tramway Club, and others. If Forest and Bird had a local group, I would have expected it to be consulted. If Greenpeace had a local group, I would have expected it to be consult. I mean a local group. I do not believe, as the member does, I presume, from the first Earth Summit, that acting locally is the most important, and that decisions at local levels are the most important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc9b226b44834f669607c2c06845dbd6\u0022\u003EGreenhouse Gas Emissions\u2014Agricultural Levy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a6752b3ade8474fbf110685507ceb79\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (NZ National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Convenor, Ministerial Group on Climate Change: Does he stand by his description of the O\u2019Hara report into agricultural greenhouse gas emissions research as a \u201Ccomprehensive report\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002291d02819b21d424c9b62bebf5a2340b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291d02819b21d424c9b62bebf5a2340b0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Convenor, Ministerial Group on Climate Change):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. In the forward to the report I described it as comprehensive, balanced, and robust; so did the co-signatory to the forward, Mr Jeff Grant, chairman of the Primary Industries Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9d8331f88b84d029f358ed10c8484e1\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How much did the O\u2019Hara report identify as contributions to greenhouse gas emission reduction research by farmers and farmer organisations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d7a7505365e476a9f39cc17c76b992d\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what \u201CHow much\u201D means. But if the member is referring to the potential to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, on a comparison with business, as usual it depends on the area of research under consideration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022823657904bcf4802a6efce2d71fc4a48\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I asked a very specific question about how much the O\u2019Hara report identified as contributions. The Minister said he was not sure what I meant. I am quite happy to rephrase it by asking: How much money did the O\u2019Hara report, report? I expect the question to be answered sensibly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204416fd0f30f4dd5a7b3879041116be5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4e357c7ba7948de99dc4e1a4cd3488f\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you tell me how much money then, because the Minister was not able to?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dc097a150c14373bf82a337708218ba\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not up to me to say\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c566085b44ee4ff1bbfc50b8673f88ef\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Well you said it was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e99f24e3c03d40f1b5834de061549a8f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister said he did not know how much, and that is a perfectly sensible answer to give.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e86720459124ce9873dedd3621c41e0\u0022\u003EJanet Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Has the O\u2019Hara report provided the solid foundation for discussions with the agriculture sector and the science community, as the Minister and Mr Grant said in the foreword?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1e4879c561249e0a54261ce477e614f\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it has. Those discussions, which will result in a detailed science plan, decisions on managing intellectual property and management, and so on, are now under way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca6d0cc3867d43728fdc0035cbebc867\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that the O\u2019Hara report was a politically contrived report, written solely to justify the flatulence tax, and that it totally mis-records current greenhouse gas reduction research?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a19a5c37c8194a9682284ffa3d78ee97\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, no, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226d26a8e347d7485c9ccf304daad93dd2\u0022\u003EDrugs\u2014Border Control\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f87bef8a6e2f4a39b41fff759a39cdcd\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (NZ Labour\u2014Hamilton West)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Customs: Has he any evidence that shows that increased resourcing of border agencies is helping reduce the quantities of illegal drugs from entering New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022206b66b1f97942309f146b90c9bacba3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022206b66b1f97942309f146b90c9bacba3\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister of Customs):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to report that the New Zealand Customs Service recently made this country\u2019s second-largest seizure of a class A drug, cocaine, at Auckland International Airport. Customs officers seized approximately 7 kilos of the drug, with an estimated street value of $10 million, from a 40-year-old South African man who carried the drugs through customs and was arrested. The courier is believed to have come from Santiago, Chile, through Papeete, and Rarotonga, and was on his way, we think, to Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fde4f0a5c544fb59e1c43c89f7ac7bc\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: What are the most significant border drug challenges facing the New Zealand Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0b9ad1f97a14a469c0888ba9845156f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is wide of the primary question, but the Minister can comment briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228825ecb036314ffdbe27deb6595a5177\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I can answer it in one word: methamphetamine. The customs agency, with other agencies, is addressing this nationwide problem, which is an evil drug. We are taking a whole-of-Government approach, with the Ministerial Action Committee on Drug Policy. We have asked that committee to provide a customs report for us on what it can do to hasten the process. With regard to methamphetamine, this year, in respect of ephedrine and precursors, we have seized 623,000 tablets, which is up on the 32,000 tablets seized last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df37a066bb1426896d8e584d18e5946\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa01462a9a3e464f9efbbdb47cd88c3a\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: How will the classification of pseudoephedrine as a class C drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act, as announced yesterday by the Associate Minister of Health, the Hon Jim Anderton, help customs and police in their fight against methamphetamine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c27bf26dc50457b9f5dafa80468697f\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The change in the classification will better equip customs and police to deter would-be importers of a major ingredient in the manufacture of methamphetamine, because the penalties for unlicensed imports will increase from a maximum of $500 or 3 months\u2019 imprisonment, to a maximum sentence of 8 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258aca791f53c4bba9e07f6148208e199\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Minister and the Government close the legal loophole that has allowed at least four million pseudoephedrine-based tablets to be lawfully imported into New Zealand for manufacture into methamphetamine\u2014imported by people supplying fake names and addresses\u2014considering that the Minister was first alerted to this tidal wave of imported drugs over 6 months ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287c4bdd5fd734ae2b986ae6461c3a86e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to be able to tell the member that this Government has committed an extra $1.9 million to help boost drugs officers. We are cracking down on the border to make sure that we have sufficient control of the imports coming through, and the ability to identify these drugs coming in. We are also looking at all the other legal loopholes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208af5472dd494335b4869aaed7ba018f\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I ask you to reflect on what I asked. I asked a question about when the Government was going to change the law. The Minister gave an answer as relevant as if he had stood up and said \u201Crhubarb\u201D. Is that addressing the question?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef0b06e79fbd456fa9d7f040664ba108\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, in the very last sentence he said: \u201CWe are looking at all the loopholes involved.\u201D I thought that was addressing the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221f8188fbacb441ca85d08e62769f36e\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Zoning\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223996fd483baa4946b3df3c787d05103a\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT NZ)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Does he believe that parents should have choice in relation to which school their children attend?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00221f12a76cbd404d7a91987cbb1fee350a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f12a76cbd404d7a91987cbb1fee350a\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. However, I will not attend the launch of the member\u2019s book on the subject, which was written while she was on holiday in Europe recently, and which she is using this question to promote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab285171b5844ceb8af81c55913f3cef\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: How does he reconcile that answer with the fact that, despite parental opposition, he has closed a record 96 schools, and what does he say to mothers like Lisa Thompson, \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003Ewhose children go to Ngaiotonga Valley School, which is just one of 18 Northland schools under threat of closure, and who says: \u201CThis is going to rock families.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd777a61a28f4aa2a9f4c8d6b2b1e87d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The reaction I had when I went to Northland to front up on this issue, in a way no Minister has before\u2014[Interruption]\u2014in a way that that member, when he was the Minister, never had the guts to do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256c54b4951224021bd667d318eb432aa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will withdraw that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b34eebd5914a4d69afde24061befc58c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw. I fronted up in a way that Nick Smith, when he was Minister, was never prepared to do, and the reaction I had from the people in Northland was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211191235b57a4865838b594806b9fde5\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e47bb14caf64b37a6e3401279b96dbe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know what the member is going to say. I want the Minister to answer the question and not refer to a previous administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a3b8f098d24109b01d1c3060074d8f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: This administration has a new policy of fronting up to local communities, and in this case the people in Northland said that they knew it was inevitable and did not want an ad hoc approach that would see school after school fall over in a way that was unplanned and that left a network that did not work for their communities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227def6f13da874a44a3f297caa8a11cef\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Are parents forced to send their child to their neighbourhood school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6adb52173234b81aead6b228b00ad94\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No. Children have the right to attend their neighbourhood school, but they are not compelled to. They also have a right to attend another school, unless it squeezes out a child who lives next door. This, of course, is as a result of the zoning policy introduced by the National Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022999eb772b83948748c7a41df9473357a\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister confirm\u2014which I think he has already partially done\u2014that the legislation that reintroduced geographical zoning of schools was passed through this House not during his administration but, rather, in late 1998 by the minority National Government, with the full support of the ACT party?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25c7dec59c6452ba497b7cdf00e213b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot quite confirm the last bit, but I am prepared to take the member\u2019s word\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1c8a436922d4a46951bf91a336792ef\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Go to the Hansard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022915d95dd56634ddebe0214ffeacfbc63\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and, if necessary, go to the Hansard. But consistency from ACT is something one would never expect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb8e2e9ce72041b799eea3f9c3fe1e87\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister does agree that children should go to the school next door to them, how can he claim in Masterton, where he has been busy closing emerging schools, that children\u2019s education will not suffer, when he is saving $7 million to push together three schools on to a major earthquake fault line, or is he just conducting a fire sale of school buildings; and how does that fit in with this Government\u2019s policy of non-privatisation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2d2af6d7ec9460a877c7fc35c78bccb\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think there were four questions there. I will try to answer as many of them as possible. No decision has yet been made on the Hiona Intermediate site, because we have not had the geological reports, which are important before that is finally decided. The Government does not save $7 million out of the Masterton review. What happens is that Masterton schools get $7 million that would otherwise be wasted on empty buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c90d3cac6269408ca1ca92614dc8cb1f\u0022\u003ETakitumu Drive, Tauranga\u2014State Highway Designation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236c318eaa70b4b25819ddeb42d853ec5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Is he satisfied that the Transit New Zealand Board\u2019s failure to act on the recommendation of its staff that Tauranga\u2019s Takitimu Drive and the Takitimu Drive/Tasman Quay link be designated as a State highway is transparent, democratic and non-partisan?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u002253e581c982b04300807787edf7ee06ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253e581c982b04300807787edf7ee06ff\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that Transit New Zealand, in deferring its decision to designate the roads mentioned by the member as a State highway, acted according to its statutory mandate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436fd86b94014243a162f6e7034bc749\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister prepared to push for the designation of that road as a State highway so as to avoid the possibility of a major transport route becoming a toll road, which is a policy his party opposed during 1998-99; or is it the case that this was a decision, not transparent, not democratic, not non-partisan, and un-minuted, which is the extraordinary thing about it, and that it included the Labour Party President, Mike Williams, who made the decision\u2014having been put there for a \u201Cjobs for the boys\u201D operation from Labour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594c00897bef43c18e7c04eab5934732\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: It is not my job to push for the designation of any particular road as a State highway; that is Transit\u2019s job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e081a688f0fb467089925ebed3a3c20b\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: What level of land transport funding is Tauranga \u2013 Bay of Plenty projected to receive, including State highways, in 2003-04, and how does this compare with last year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7b108a80594462bc2c4d78085082c0\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the Tauranga \u2013 Bay of Plenty region has been allocated $56.78 million over 2003-04, which is an increase of 5.3 percent from last year. Most of these projects are in the Tauranga area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a925510cd9694e62aedf77cf79d299fc\u0022\u003EGordon Copeland\u003C/span\u003E: Will the designation of Tauranga\u2019s Takitumu Drive and Takitumu Drive - Tasman Quay link as a State highway by Transit remain a possibility in the future, regardless of any alternative funding mechanisms established by the Land Transport Management Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a90c189aa0d94edebebf2bbb2b652b58\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. For a start, the decision has simply been deferred as more information is sought and as more discussion takes place with local authorities. As I understand it, these decisions are reviewed every 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224e0aa8a9f1e94bf995573b6934b06cb5\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229098eb76701d48a6b13c8546ef8eb1dd\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc609244da5a42fbb575d2e137dbd436\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc609244da5a42fbb575d2e137dbd436\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. I wish to speak today about the disgraceful conduct and deceitful actions of this Government and its Ministers. The saddest thing for this Government is that the people of this country are at last beginning to understand what it is about, and that is being reflected in the polls. This Government is now indirectly admitting by its actions, or, in most instances\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2e8c2b441e74738a5ef9a2e0bf7a754\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Forty-six percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a4ba2967ea64cf7b9080958414859e1\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It was 46 percent, was it? Well, in the last campaign, which lasted exactly 1 month, Labour lost 13 percent in 4 weeks flat. Next time we will have a longer run at it, and it will lose a darned sight more when the balloon goes up. The Government is now indirectly admitting, by its own action, or, in most instances, by its lack of action, as is the case within the rapidly deteriorating health system, that the continual open-door immigration policy is exacerbating\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f43455762fb480dabe58333e4cb00a7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Who wrote this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280f84823e3b5410397db45c19a0e0ffd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am able to write my own speech, unlike that dummy over there. He has a whole research unit to write his speeches. Over here we can write our own. This Government has no idea about ordinary New Zealand families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c58c833d3654fdd9f1be81adeb6ecb7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t read it very well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022261dd047cf514eb794209912193c92ca\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not read like a dog with a cleft palate, do I? The Government has no idea what the cost of immigration is. It persistently hides behind policies that it says were introduced by previous Governments. Every day Government members rise in the House and blame some other Government. It is about time they stopped blaming someone else. It is time that Helen Clark and her Ministers stopped passing the buck. If they want to go back and blame other Governments, they should go back to the years between 1984 and 1990 when they turned this country upside down, when they had an economic revolution, and when Australia, heading down the same path, grew a third larger in the same space of time, whilst these \u201Cloony tune\u201D, political and economic alchemists stuffed New Zealand up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe worst thing about that party over there in Government is that the deceit starts at the top. Yesterday the Prime Minister was asked a simple question: how many people are on hospital waiting lists for elective surgery? Would she answer it? No, she would not. She obfuscated, delayed, and used every device possible to avoid answering the question. Worst of all, when she finally got caught out, she did not give the accurate figure. We know that tens of thousands of New Zealanders have been shifted off the hospital waiting lists, and today my colleague Peter Brown gave a classic example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E What did the Prime Minister do? She got her office to track down the case\u2014real fast. The spin doctors from the Minister of Health\u2019s office got the Prime Minister to get up in the House, and the first thing she did was to tell the House something that was absurdly, patently not true. She said that the case Mr Brown was talking about depended upon a further investigation. Sorry\u2014that investigation occurred 8 weeks ago. So why is Mrs Grimsdell not getting an operation? Because Helen Clark has no heart. She is more obsessed with running around the world, spending money on refugees and illegal immigrants, and trying to get herself a job in the United Nations, for after the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EHelen Clark is trying to get herself a job, with our money and with New Zealanders\u2019 sacrifice and agony as the base for it, because she knows that when the next election is over she will have lost. She will be looking for a new job. That is why she spends all her time betraying the interests of New Zealanders. That is why she does not give a damn about the almost 60,000 people who today need an operation in New Zealand, and cannot get one. She does not give a darn about the 12,000 New Zealanders who are waiting for urgent State housing, but cannot get it. But boy can she spend money on the \u201Chug an immigrant\u201D campaign! Can she spend money on a guy like Zaoui, who is over here and has already cost taxpayers more than $100,000, and can she spend money on the fact that we now have hospital boards spending more than $4 million on interpreters! Ten years ago, the Auckland Hospital Board had five interpreters. Do members know how many it has now? It has 285. It had five, but now it has 285. But apparently, of course, it is good because it means we can go to different restaurants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u0022b870ef29bdd24b03870a2e3f8cf67dfe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b870ef29bdd24b03870a2e3f8cf67dfe\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Smacking one\u2019s child is not physical violence, injury, or abuse, as per article 19 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Violence is described in the Oxford Dictionary  as: \u201CThe exercise or an instance of physical force, usually effecting or intended to effect, injuries, destruction, etc.; powerful, untamed, or devastating force; an unjust, unwarranted, or unlawful display of force.\u201D It is something that brings about injury, but in a significant way. Clearly, the definition, in that context, is talking about substantial injury. It is certainly abuse. There is no connection whatsoever between Coral Burrows\u2019 death and section 59 of the Crimes Act. In fact, the mother of Coral Burrows said that Steve Williams, the accused, was a good father figure, from which we take the fact that there was not abuse. We do not yet know the facts that will come out in that situation, but there is not always a connection between the way a person responds to a child and what happens later on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EPhysical, violent injury is abuse. A negative intention is quite clearly implied. Child discipline requires a loving attitude. Spanking is not just a right parents have when dealing with their children; nor is it just a necessary tool for training and disciplining children. From my experience as a father of five very well-adjusted children, currently aged 23 years to 11 years\u2014who, as best as I can recall, all received a smacking at some stage in their younger years\u2014I say that smacking is an important part of a child\u2019s early development as an individual and as a potential valued and contributing member of society. The latest Australian statistics show that step-parents and de facto partners, particularly a mother\u2019s male de facto partner, are the most likely to abuse a child; not natural parents. In my view, adults with convictions for violence are far more likely to come from families where no physical discipline took place, than from families where there was appropriate physical discipline provided by loving parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EChild abuse is based on a hatred; a disregard for children\u2019s needs. Child discipline is based on love and a genuine concern for the welfare of the child. Firstly, children need physical discipline. It is how they learn. If a child reaches out to touch a hot stove, sure we can shout in a loud voice: \u201CNo!\u201D, and maybe that will scare the child, and frighten him or her from touching the stove. But ultimately, giving a child a small spank teaches the child that it is far better not to touch something, because the consequences will be far more severe. If a child is going to cross the road, restraining the child by grabbing it is an acceptable way of stopping the child. Shouting at the child may simply be far too late. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EPhysical discipline provides a sense of security for children. It provides them with safe boundaries and convinces them that boundaries will be provided in their lives, and that those boundaries will be enforced, no matter what they do. All parents who have had young children have gone through what is euphemistically known as the \u201Cterrible twos\u201D. Usually, in my experience, it starts at about 18 months of age. It is a period of time when young children tend to be defiant, and tend to decide to put their parents to the test as to who is in charge. It is a case of \u201CWill my parents protect me from hurting myself, no matter how determined I am to do it?\u201D. Any parent of a 2-year-old will know that experience. In my experience, once a parent has conquered that test children are very affectionate. They recognise that they have safe, secure boundaries within which to operate and that they can trust their parents to enforce those boundaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI recognise that, for outsiders, children being smacked is an uncomfortable thing to see. Hitting other people does not come naturally. A crying child naturally engenders sympathy. But wilful, petulant children who are determined to win against their parents\u2019 wishes, and who are allowed simply to do that, suffer more harm than if they are given the boundaries they need to survive. It is in both their own interests and society\u2019s long-term interests that that restraint be provided, and the vast majority of parents realise this. In a snapshot poll on Radio Pacific last week, 96 percent of the children polled answered \u201Cyes\u201D to the question of whether smacking should be allowed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u0022508f44fd7f624e0a87dd3c2dc3b9a6ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022508f44fd7f624e0a87dd3c2dc3b9a6ee\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E The veil is slowly lifting on the arrogance and deceit of this Government. Just at the time when Tony Blair\u2019s credibility is being eroded, the more we see of the inner workings of this Government the more obvious it is that calculated deceit is part of its way of doing business. We have learnt today that New Zealanders cannot trust the Prime Minister of New Zealand with their medical information. [Interruption] Government members do not take it seriously, and that is right because they regard anything as a legitimate political tool. So the Prime Minister just dropped in the New Zealand Parliament confidential, private medical information about an older woman, in order to make some political point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe also found out that the Government uses public money to contract quite precisely with lobby groups to lobby us. We are quite happy if they do it for free. We do not think they need to be paid. Here we have the Government pretending that these lobby groups are at arm\u2019s length. It puts together a contract made up of taxpayers\u2019 hard-earned  money, specifically requiring those lobby groups to lobby members of Parliament. That is a disgrace, and we will certainly hear more of it. The worst of it is that the contract says that the parties can never criticise the Government. That is absolutely outrageous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Government has been using deceit as a tool on matters that are much more important. I ask Government members this: when were they told by the United States Government that the United States Government was not prepared to schedule bilateral trade negotiations? When were they told? Because, today, the US Ambassador is reported as having those comments in a speech that he could not actually give. If the Government knew that, it should have told the country. It has spent 4 years trying to curry favour with the US administration, with the odd complete summersault when it insulted that administration, all for the purpose of maintaining official optimism that it could secure a trade agreement with the US. Today, the US Government has officially and finally said that it would not negotiate. That puts the nail in the coffin of 4 years of the Government\u2019s top foreign policy objective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EHere is another question. If that is the case, why is the Government making extensive and expensive commitments of New Zealand troops to Iraq and Afghanistan if it was not to make up for the insults that the Prime Minister gave the US Government earlier this year? I want the Government to explain what it is on about with the US relationship, because it has deceived the New Zealand public. The official view has been that the relationship is all on track and that we are making progress towards a trade negotiation. That trade negotiation has mattered to New Zealand, because the potential for the World Trade Organization round to succeed is not great, and it will not happen in a big hurry. It will certainly not happen in a big hurry if it does happen. This was what the Government was hanging its trade policy on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI want the Government to tell us whether it knew before today that the US Government has killed any prospect of negotiation. If the Government did know, why did it not tell us; and if it did not, then why is the relationship as bad as that? When will the Government explain to the primary producers and the manufacturers of New Zealand, the backbone of this economy, why those trade negotiations have finally died? When will the Government explain that? It is time this Government was honest about that relationship and stopped pretending it is working, when it is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00224948d6685c884b3fae1e0420792ce185\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224948d6685c884b3fae1e0420792ce185\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E The member mentioned Mr Blair being in some trouble, although I gather he would love Mr Blair\u2019s poll ratings at the present time. Mr Blair is in trouble for going to war in Iraq, not staying away from the war in Iraq as this Government did. Yet again, Mr English tells us that he supported us going to war, but he does not support us going to the peace. He always gets it back to front on every issue in terms of both what is right and what New Zealanders believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe other thing I have to say is that I think he is right and has a point. Why we are paying people to lobby the National Party on sensible issues such as with regard to smoking I have no idea, because we will never change the minds of people over there on anything sensible, and not a single cent should go in that direction any further, in my view as Minister of Finance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis week the Government celebrates a major anniversary for it\u2014a profound part of our success as a Government. Tomorrow is the second anniversary of the election of Bill English as the leader of the National Party. When he was elected, Jenny Shipley was at 14 percent in the polls, and when he was first elected he was at 21 percent. He is now down to 7 percent\u2014half of what Jenny Shipley was. When he was elected, the National Party was at 40 percent in the polls; it is now down to 29 percent. This man is sort of like Moses in reverse\u2014he is leading the people out of the Promised Land back into captivity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EDr Brash starts musing again. For Mr English it is: \u201CTo be, or not to be\u201D; for Dr Brash it is: \u201CTo \u2018ACT\u2019, or not to \u2018ACT\u2019 \u201D. Let us recognise some things about Dr Brash. He is the ACT mole in the National Party. I am told on very reliable information that last week he addressed a Greenslades business function in Christchurch; Chatham House Rules, but sometimes somebody does not understand what they are. Dr Brash mused on what his tax policy is, and he was very specific about his policy. His tax policy is to put GST up to 20 percent to pay for\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289f9f60437b545f388ba6a1e332821ba\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Just daft!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7fcdad74fc3482880cf76d68e1e5cc6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: It is just daft, the member is quite right. However, it is Dr Brash\u2019s policy to pay for massive tax cuts at the top end of the scale; so people on low incomes will get tax increases so that people on high incomes can get tax decreases. This is the new National Party approach. Dr Brash has made it clear many times that that is his view of what a tax system should be. It should lower taxes for those who are rich\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e09693446ac644e68aad57660ddfa7b8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: When?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225000d5ddb68e43208e85c2693a6e2e47\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: He said it last week in Christchurch at a Greenslades function. I challenge Dr Brash to come down to this House and say that he does not believe in a GST increase accompanied by big cuts in the top tax rate; and, of course, he will not. He also gave that wonderful performance at the ACT party conference, and that led to Gerry Brownlee getting just a wee bit upset. If Dr Brash is the mole of ACT in the National Party, then, of course, Mr Brownlee has pretensions to be the Toad of Toad Hall as far as that particular institution is concerned. Mr Brownlee burst out and said: \u201CThe ACT party is a smorgasbord party.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EWe have to be clear: Mr Brownlee probably knows more about smorgasbords than does any other member of the National Party. So when he said that the ACT party is a smorgasbord party, he is probably right. By that he means that the National Party does not have a clue whether it is Arthur or Martha. Is it trying to cuddle up to the ACT party, is it moving to the right, is it going back to its roots, as they always like to say in the National Party, or is it trying to get into Government? Is it actually trying to get on to this side of the House and be the Government, at which point it has to push the Labour Party out of the centre of politics? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EI have to tell members opposite that it is the centre that decides elections. They are not actually decided on the sort of flaky fringe on the right-hand end of politics, the bit where the ACT party is mired at the present time. If a party starts to get its policies written for it by Stephen Franks, then it will soon get down to the point where it will have about the same level of support as the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EDr Brash says: \u201CWith three times the support of ACT we should adopt its policies and this will somehow increase our level of support.\u201D Mr Brownlee says: \u201CSomehow from 20-odd percent we can get enough votes to govern by ourselves.\u201D That is equally ridiculous. So what will National do? Yesterday, it could not even have a caucus if the leader was not there. Even the Labour Party can have caucuses when the Prime Minister is away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00228312ef5b49ee4f4d93dac210c5714dfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228312ef5b49ee4f4d93dac210c5714dfb\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party had a conference on the foreshore and seabed issue on Saturday. We believe that we should ask experts to come and talk, and that lots of New Zealanders wanted to participate and that these hui should not only be organised by members of Parliament for M\u0101ori. The two most experienced lawyers participating at that conference, Paul Cavanagh QC and Marcus Poole, emphatically agreed with a concern I had raised\u2014that is, that the M\u0101ori Land Court is not the appropriate body to decide as between M\u0101ori and other New Zealanders. Racism is infused into the law under which it operates. That court cannot be committed to justice that treats all New Zealanders equally, because its statute states that it cannot. It is told to discriminate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EFor the Government, of course, it is now routine strategy to move political disaster areas to the courts. Firstly, of course, the courts take ages; secondly, people get accustomed to the worst; and, thirdly, they forget which politician sent it there and they blame the judges for the result. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWe have been told that this Government wants to send the definition of customary interests and customary property rights to the M\u0101ori Land Court, and then we are supposed to be gagged by constitutional convention from questioning or criticising the result, even if it has been coolly engineered to process it through the courts. It may be, and so I have been told, that it could even be punishable as a contempt of court to ask about the motives and the ideologies of the judges who are left to do the dirty work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EP\u0101keh\u0101, of course, have ignored the injustice under the Te Ture Whenua Maori Act, because until now it has largely been confined to disputes among M\u0101ori. The spotlight will now go on to this little black hole in our justice system. These judges cannot be seen to be impartial, how ever well and honestly they try to perform. Firstly, in their ex officio role as Waitangi Tribunal members, they have been clearly partisan. The notorious \u201Cholocaust\u201D report is just the most well known example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E The recent oil and gas report embarked on pure legal invention\u2014a so-called treaty interest in property that M\u0101ori claim to have lost wrongly. The Wellington Tenths Trust report addressed the seabed and foreshore issue and invited claimants to come to the tribunal if they did not get the result they wanted from the Court of Appeal. Of course, they have recently been openly drumming up support for their own hearing process on the seabed and foreshore issue, and it is clear that they are not concerned that they are seen to be influencing the political process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Land Court need not apply principles of law known in advance. It is told that it must apply tikanga M\u0101ori, and as members of the Justice and Electoral Committee heard during the Supreme Court Bill hearings, tikanga M\u0101ori does not even treat all M\u0101ori alike; it varies from iwi to iwi. So how can that treat all New Zealanders alike? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe judges are not selected on the same criteria as in other courts; they are appointed by the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs; and, of course, that Minister says that he is there for M\u0101ori. Labour M\u0101ori Cabinet Ministers have rejected the normal \u201Cconflict of interest\u201D rules and principles, and the Westminster rules and principles against the misuse of power, for preferment of their kin. We have no evidence that these judges are appointed by a Minister who wants them to act in the best interests of all New Zealanders if there is a conflict between M\u0101ori and other New Zealanders\u2019 interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EVery few of these judges have wide experience in the law outside the M\u0101ori sphere and things that affect M\u0101ori, and some of them have expressed views about property rights and the rule of law that simply make them unsuitable for adjudicating between M\u0101ori and other New Zealanders. They tend to be appointed young, and few have much obvious experience of commerce. The court routinely accepts unsworn statements as evidence, and commonly does not cross-examine. It is quite unsuitable for deciding property rights as between M\u0101ori claimants and other New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI believe that the Government, indeed, has its own reservations. I do not take that just from the silence of the Ministers and other M\u0101ori members present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00229b458a676477435bb8050c5b87777cd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b458a676477435bb8050c5b87777cd5\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E What an interesting day this is. We heard from Murray Smith of the United Future party a discussion of what one should do to 2-year olds to keep them in line. Then we celebrated the second anniversary of Bill English coming to the leadership of the National Party. It was a very, very flat speech from Mr English, but he then acted like a 2-year-old at the end of it. He stomped out like a 2-year-old. We could tell that he was unhappy with his performance. We could tell that the rest of the National Party was unhappy with his performance. But one of the things about being a leader is that when one is not happy one has to have the ability to absorb it, take it, and show some leadership\u2014not to stomp around this Chamber like a spoilt child who was not allowed a lolly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EMaybe he has gone to the National Party economic caucus committee. He apparently has not been to one for nearly a year, according to Don Brash. Maybe he has gone to find out why Don Brash is wandering around Christchurch saying that the National Party is going to put GST up to 20 percent and cut the highest tax rate. Why did Don Brash tell a group in Christchurch that the National Party was going to put  GST up to 20 percent and cut the top tax rates? Why? Because it is consistent with the views of Richard Prebble. It is absolutely consistent with the views of Rodney Hide\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299d6464024d746cfa33502d3992c269c\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What about Stephen Franks?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4aa5f67e21f441592dea40b83f095bd\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E:\u2014and Stephen Franks; he is making it clear that he is the aspirant leader for ACT. It is absolutely consistent with being the ninth member of ACT in this House, as we all know that Dr Brash is. Will he come down here and deny it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5a4832c304242728ae48726148e5974\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: You used to be good!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228422ca493ee452086fb428eb75e06e7\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with Simon Power that Dr Brash used to be good. But he came in here and he was flattened like a bit of bread under a steamroller. The National Party got to him and he lost whatever potential he had. That is why, now, the National Party is looking to Gerry Brownlee. Is it not sad? Apparently when he canvassed for support it was like one of the candidates for Cabinet in the 1980s and I counted the votes. He canvassed for support a couple of months ago and got only one person supporting him\u2014himself. But is it not interesting that the National Party now is not looking to Mr Power but looking to Gerry Brownlee? Just as we know that Don Brash is the ninth member from ACT, Gerry Brownlee is the 14th member from New Zealand First. He is out with them regularly, having a great time around town sorting out portfolio responsibilities, and trying to do deals about who is sitting in what seat, who is running against whom, and which of his National Party colleagues will be sacrificed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EGiven the approach in the last 2 years, and given the way that Bill English\u2014\u201CWiremu P\u0101keh\u0101\u201D\u2014has destroyed the vote of the National Party, I am not surprised that National Party members are looking for somewhere to go. But I want to know whether Gerry Brownlee gave Phil Heatley\u2019s seat to Brian Donnelly, to give more security to New Zealand First in the longer term. Is that true? It is one of the rumours around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EWe know that Brian Donnelly is a much harder worker in Whangarei. I know from the representations I get that Brian Donnelly is a much harder worker in Whangarei than Phil Heatley. But did Gerry Brownlee deal with his seat? What about Shane Ardern? Is it true that Don Brash said: \u201CWhen we ran in Taranaki \u2013 King Country we nearly won it?\u201D. Did Don Brash deal with that seat too?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u00223798362405504282adffe95a9965da0e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223798362405504282adffe95a9965da0e\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E In case the public was not aware, that was the Minister of Education addressing the New Zealand Parliament. What a pathetic effort by the Minister of Education! He provides no leadership in education, just appalling performance, and it is just as well that he is leaving the Chamber. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EJust over a year ago\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfef76eb8a2a475c8a1c1fffd29ddfc6\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am just making it clear that members are not allowed to draw attention to members leaving the Chamber. He is actually incorrect. I am here having a discussion with our supporting people, making quality representations in a way that Lockwood Smith never does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233048fa871ed4508831190f5d8d55a31\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: On a number of occasions during his contribution, the Minister made reference to at least two members of our caucus, and their presence or otherwise in this Chamber. We did not interrupt him during his speech, and we would appreciate it if the same rules could apply on the other side.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222670c26d3cc34678ba0c4ca63f821584\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has made a valid point, and I caution the member for interrupting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246eee3fd9f5c405892ffdced149c31c4\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Just over a year ago in this House, I accused the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, of not being upfront with the people of New Zealand over the problems of our prospective free-trade agreement with the United States of America. I did not make that accusation lightly. I took the trouble of going to Washington to obtain thorough briefings on why we were making no progress. Helen Clark, the Prime Minister, Phil Goff, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Jim Sutton, the Minister for Trade Negotiations, have continued to deny that our trade deal with the United States is in crisis. In the case of Helen Clark, it is part of a pattern of calculated deceit, spanning right from forged art works through to \u201Ccorngate\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EThat deception has been publicly exposed today by the United States Ambassador. In his speech notes, he said this: \u201CThe United States Government is not prepared to schedule bilateral trade negotiations at this time.\u201D The word \u201Cnot\u201D is underlined. That is totally consistent with three sets of briefings I have had at high levels in Washington in the last 18 months. I want to know why Helen Clark, Jim Sutton, and Phil Goff continue to deny that. Why have they not been upfront and honest with the people of New Zealand? The ambassador\u2019s speech was couched with full diplomatic courtesy. What does Helen Clark not understand about the words \u201Cnot prepared to do a trade deal\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003ELess than a month ago, Helen Clark said in this Parliament: \u201CNew Zealand has a friend in United States trade representative, Bob Zoellick\u201D\u2014not Robert Zoellick\u2014\u201Cwho has looked to make room for this country\u201D\u2014that is us\u2014\u201Cto eventually come into a list for negotiations.\u201D Helen Clark says her Government has always wished Australia well in its negotiations, because \u201Cwe believe that it opens up a path for New Zealand.\u201D Helen Clark said that in this Parliament, probably just days after Bob Zoellick, whom Helen Clark told this Parliament was a great friend of New Zealand, had called a meeting of the friends of free trade in Cancun. When the World Trade Organization talks were running off the rails, Ambassador Zoellick called a meeting of the friends of free trade. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to ask Helen Clark, who told this Parliament that Bob Zoellick was a great friend of New Zealand and was looking to make room for this country to eventually come into a list for trade negotiations, why he did not invite New Zealand to that meeting of the friends of free trade in Cancun. It was clearly a meeting of people that the United States was looking to do trade work with. Helen Clark said in this Parliament that a great friend of New Zealand, Bob Zoellick, was looking to bring us into US trade negotiations, when at the same time\u2014at the World Trade Organization talks in Cancun\u2014New Zealand was left out of a meeting of World Trade Organisation members who are considered friends of free trade that the United States is looking to do trade deals with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003EI want to know how Helen Clark ties those two events together. Her misrepresentation of the facts to this Parliament, and what actually happened in Cancun, is part of a pattern of ongoing deceit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00228b962f9f2d134f13b4af47b7360c1855\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b962f9f2d134f13b4af47b7360c1855\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E For members who are listening, that was yet another leadership bid from the National Party. One can always tell. That was one of the people who is now a contender for the leadership of the National Party. One can tell from that angry overacting that took place for the last 5 minutes, with that member trying to do better at what Bill English has been trying to capture himself\u2014the constant screaming, the raising of the voice, the sound of false anger and desperation that comes through from one speaker after the other. National Opposition members are just so chronically unhappy and angry all the time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe worst person at that, of course, is Mr Bill English. I want to take members back to the last session. It must feel like d\u00E9j\u00E1 vu\u2014they are back here again. At the last session Bill English was screaming and yelling about the situation in this country. I said at the time that I thought the problem for Mr English was pretty easy to spot. The first was the poll rating. I remind people again how successful Mr Bill English\u2014\u201CMr Angry\u201D as we call him on this side of the House\u2014has been. When he took over from Jenny Shipley after rolling her too early\u2014and we know that now\u2014he was polling at 5 percent for preferred Prime Minister. Would anybody like to take a stab at what his preferred Prime Minister stake is now? It has risen within the margin of error to 7. With all that work in all that time, with all that screaming, and so on, his poll rating  has risen to 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022696e12ea5e0947b2942917c8cabea96b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What did he peak at?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e80a59f8a49747ab9957267c2c1eb914\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: He peaked at 21, and he has just gone on sliding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI think that he is angry as well at all the people who keep on picking on him in the National Opposition. I mention Mr Maurice Williamson. Three weeks ago in the House, I said I would be angry, too. As leader of a party, who would not be? Bill English had gone through the painful process of trying to get rid of a man who said he was as exciting as watching paint dry, and even that was an exaggeration. That is a damn good line. Mr Williamson said that he lacked charisma, that he was no leader, that he was hopeless, that he was dead meat, and all those kinds of things. Mr Williamson said the National Opposition was unperforming, it would never be the Government, it was hopeless, it could not poll, and all those things, and still Mr English, as the leader, could not get him fired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EMr Williamson is now on the Paul Keating comeback trail. I have always said that Mr Williamson went to the lowest seat because he followed what Paul Keating had told him\u2014that he should go to the back, but he could still come forward. After the next election, Maurice Williamson\u2014a good communicator, a popular guy in his own seat, a good-looking man, slimmed down, looking fit, with lots of speeches coming in\u2014is another contender. Bill English is looking at that and saying that not only can he not get rid of him, but 3 weeks later he is back in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EMurray McCully is a contender. Murray McCully, the senior strategist in the National Party, has been at the ACT conference, forging links in a way that one would expect leaders to do. He has been building up a coalition with the ACT people, and sort of doing all the rounds in the way that one would expect might happen between coalition partners. Everyone is cosy, but Bill English did not know about that. He did not approve of it, he did not agree with the speech, because he did not read it, and he had to try to recover from that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EBut as if that were not bad enough, the person described by Michael Laws as the \u201Cold man in a hurry\u201D\u2014the person who also seems to have a charisma problem, Mr Don Brash, who, I guess, Bill English would have given up as having leadership aspirations\u2014went to a later ACT conference and said that the National Opposition was hopeless. He said it was unspectacular, it was not performing, and that it would never be the Government unless it did certain things that agreed with him. What did Bill English say? Bill English did not actually know that Don Brash was going. He did not know what the speech was going to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe are back on the leadership trail, and I have news. Even Tony Ryall is now looking for leadership changes. As he was waiting for his soy latte\u2014his favourite drink\u2014Mr Ryall was recently overheard saying to the person behind the counter that he did not want his soy latte today because he was off oestrogen and on the trail of testosterone. When we hear a National Opposition speaker who is supposed to be aligned with the brat pack, and very close to Mr English, saying that he does not want to be on oestrogen anymore, because he is trying to get more testosterone into his diet, we know it is all over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00224a9b9f364a274a809b21d51da5adcc25\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a9b9f364a274a809b21d51da5adcc25\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E When I came to the House this afternoon for question time, I had in my hand something I had picked up from my in-tray out of interest. I did not intend to raise the issue at all, but then I heard the Prime Minister, in an answer to a question from my leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, guarantee that people waiting for elective surgery would not wait more than 6 months. I knew that to be untrue, and untrue in the specific case of Mrs Grimsdell. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EMrs Grimsdell is in her early 70s and lives in Auckland, in the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate. She has been waiting for years for a hip operation. In early May this year, out of desperation, her husband contacted my office. Up until that time she had dealt with the Hon Annette King and the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate office. She went for pre-surgery assessment on 12 August, with a view to having surgery on 28 August. She passed most of the pre-surgery assessment, but a diligent doctor\u2014I commend that doctor, and have no doubt that the Grimsdells do, too\u2014picked up what has been termed a slight heart murmur. Since that time, Mrs Grimsdell has been cleared of that heart murmur, but there has been no contact whatsoever. She was told, there and then, that she had been cleared, and they are sitting there waiting, and Mrs Grimsdell is in agony. It is some weeks now since she has been cleared. For the Prime Minister to come down, as she did, and say that Mrs Grimsdell is waiting because she is currently subject to a slight heart murmur is not true. The Minister shakes her head, I think in agreement with me?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1e9ab4ed30447dbb2d8c5e67b357dbd\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f69df4a1c5e461a88d01d46e17065fc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, she disagrees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9233f4c7ccb4d5ba5c603ed7453b6a9\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I disagree, and I will table it in a moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aaf5a056a7249f69d979f165559df3f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Okay, I welcome that news. My understanding\u2014and I have checked subsequently\u2014is that she has been cleared of a heart murmur by the technician who examined her, and she is still waiting. [Interruption] Mr Benson-Pope should take a breath and listen. This is about a New Zealander whom we should be caring for. It is somewhat ironic that within 30 to 40 minutes of me raising the question in the House, the Grimsdells got a telephone call from an official in the health industry. I do not know what that official said\u2014I am not privy to the phone call, and I have not had a report on it\u2014but I gather that the Grimsdells have found it to be quite encouraging.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4d694276dd49098ad8ad0f7e10dd5f\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: She was lucky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef534aa552ee41b391d5f7e905792d67\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: She appears to be lucky.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f473b370c6654ee68684822cbd422aa0\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: A bit of honest work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224f7a52153f04493b9e22ccc42598b15\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member accusing me of lying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db35b844cf424606ab169e7c987bf168\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: I was talking to someone over here. Just carry on with your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bba940e788c748bb931b913f947f155c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: They live in the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate. They have knocked on the door of the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate office, I understand, on several occasions. Nothing at all has happened as a result of that. They clearly came to New Zealand First because they knew that if anybody could fix it, we could. Within 30 minutes of me putting a question in the House, we are getting some action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af9f2bb0f314cfea88a932e4de9bd86\u0022\u003EHon Annette King\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member is not. He is just talking rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022485f70bf7bd64a67b4be0b1c21d05fa2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to members sitting over there, who have smugly dismissed this as some sort of confidence trick on behalf of the Grimsdells\u2014 [Interruption] \u201CCrank\u201D I think the Minister said. [Interruption] Does Mr Benson-Pope think that the Grimsdells are living in the gutter? Does he think that waiting 2\u00BD years is not long enough? I say that is far too long. It is far too long, when the Prime Minister comes down here and tells us that the Government will guarantee a 6-month maximum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e230d50f25423c9171b3a79a60393e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e230d50f25423c9171b3a79a60393e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table an email received today from the chief executive of the Counties Manukau District Health Board, regarding Mrs Grimsdell, which states: \u201CWe are currently awaiting the result of that assessment before proceeding with surgery. Once we have received the cardiology report, the anaesthetist will again see Mrs Grimsdell to assess her for surgery.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00226d4c6f8db73c456f83d350b69aeea01d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d4c6f8db73c456f83d350b69aeea01d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Birthday parties and anniversaries are often given names\u2014like silver, gold, diamond, and so on. A first birthday, I understand, is called a paper birthday, and a second birthday is called a cotton birthday or a cotton anniversary. Well, Bill English has just survived his cotton anniversary, and only by his tiny cotton socks. In fact, his performance reminds me of a cotton ball. There is absolutely no substance to his performance. We can poke fingers through his argument, and the only thing he is useful for is cleaning out waste products. So to Bill English it must feel a bit like having a birthday party when nobody wants to come, but is forced to come along.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWe have to ask: \u201CCan anything go right for that man? Does he have to lose everything?\u201D I ask members to have a look at a photograph in yesterday\u2019s Dominion Post, showing Bill English done up in his rugby blacks, and the headline: \u201CParliament\u2019s rugby loss a bad omen for the real thing\u201D. It certainly is, because Bill English\u2019s loss is a real omen for where he is heading in the leadership of the National Party. Members should have a look at what has happened in the 2 years since Bill English has been the leader of that party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EHe has no profile. People say: \u201CBill who? Who are you talking about?\u201D. He has no popularity. His popular support is very interesting. In October 2001 there was 21 percent support for Bill English. What is it today? Seven percent! Two-thirds of his popular support has gone down the gurgler\u201414 percentage points down the gurgler. He is so insecure he could not even allow a caucus to be held when he was in Australia playing rugby. Why not? He was scared they might roll him while he was not there, so they all had to go off and have their lattes around Wellington rather than meet and talk about policy, because dear old Bill English was not there to hold the caucus meeting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhat else has he done? He has managed to split his own party into two, and the National Party is rapidly heading towards being three factions. Faction one is made up of Bill English and all his little acolytes\u2014the angry middle-aged men, the Roger Sowry and Lynda Scott combination, Nick Smith, and Tony Ryall. These make up the angry middle-aged people of one faction. Then the second faction is Don Brash and Murray McCully. They are the ones who are busy cosying up to the ACT party. They like the late-night tipples with the ACT party; they are philosophical soul mates. Now we have the third faction, which is led by Gerry Brownlee. Gerry who? Gerry and the Who\u2014I have to say\u2014desperately seeking a supporter. He is so excited about his aspiration that his bubble is fit to burst. His chest pokes out, and he is strutting around the corridors. I saw him this morning. He has never been happier. He believes he is on the way up, but does not quite know who will be with him, at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhat does all this mean to the once-proud National Party? In one word, it is credibility, but\u2014zilch, zero\u2014it has none! It has absolutely no credibility at all. In September 2001 it had 40 percent popular support. It got rid of Jenny Shipley\u2014she was no good\u2014and put in Bill English. What is its popular support now? It is 29 percent. [Interruption] Well, maybe I am being generous. Maybe it is 26 percent. Jenny Shipley was a giant compared with Bill English, in more ways than one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhy do National Party members have no credibility? It is because they are timid and mouse-like in their approach. They take the \u201Cwalking on eggs\u201D approach to everything. They are lions at question time and they are wimps when it comes to policy. Bill English always bails out after he has made his speech. He does not like to hear the truth. He bails out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003ENational members are wimps, and that is why they have no credibility. They change their position on a puff of political wind. Let us have a look at one issue\u2014one that really amused me. They were for pharmacy deregulation, then they were against pharmacy deregulation, then they were for pharmacy deregulation\u2014all in the space of 3 short years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u00227337feb11599417c80b7d607d7e1546c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227337feb11599417c80b7d607d7e1546c\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (NZ National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start my comments by agreeing entirely with the Prime Minister. She is a victim of her own success, without a doubt. Unfortunately, her success, the success of the New Zealand Prime Minister, is one of deceit, double standards, half-truths, and spin. She has been totally successful in hoodwinking the public of New Zealand\u2014but not for much longer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI want to talk about an event that took place here on 4 September, affecting myself, and to draw a comparison with what I am talking about here. Somebody in a high place in this House\u2014I cannot mention him because it would break the Standing Orders\u2014said that on that day, through driving a tractor up a few steps of Parliament, I may have broken the law. I want to send the strongest possible message to anybody else who may contemplate doing such a heinous thing that he or she will be arrested and taken away straight away. I want to send that message. Then I got two apologies in the House from that senior person\u2014one personally, and one when I was not present. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe second event, which took place soon afterwards, was that the acting Leader of the House came out and said the MP concerned was reckless and stupid, and that if it had been anybody else he or she would have been arrested on the spot and taken away. That is what that man said. Further, he made a whole range of comments that I do not intend to respond to, because only a fool would respond to them. Only a fool would respond to such an ignoramus, who proved his ignorance of what he was talking about in the statement he made. I do not intend to waste any more time on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThen came the ultimate event in it all: the leader of the \u201Csisterhood\u201D went on national television in her post-Cabinet press conference, and said that she thought the member\u2019s actions were disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b783397787411d9e29e4a4114dd890\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Whom are we talking about, Mr Ardern?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a73f7d582b14b02840700fb49250efe\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister said that she thought the member\u2019s actions were disorderly. Here is the first coincidence: within a few hours of that, I received a call from the police. Within 2 days I was charged with disorderly behaviour. That was a total coincidence, of course! Where is the double standard? The double standard is that I totally cooperated with the police, answered all their questions, and then was charged. Three senior members of the House suggested that I should be charged, and I have been. Where is the further coincidence? Here is another absolute coincidence: the member of the police who came down with the charges happened to work, just coincidently, in the office of the Minister of Police for 2 years, prior to holding the position he holds now. That is a further total coincidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EHere is where it gets worse; here is where it really gets bad. A member of the Alkema family contacted my office in Te Kuiti and talked about the Danny Alkema case. They talked to me about it, and pleaded with me to bring it to the House and highlight the double standards. They also contacted the Rt Hon Winston Peters, and he brought it to the House instantly and exposed it. What did we get then? Another member of the \u201Csisterhood\u201D, Ms Dyson, came into the House, put on the cat-like vitriolic face that only she can, and accused both Winston Peters and the Hon Bill English of engaging in the lowest of politics that one can get into. I think she said that the Hon Bill English was a disgrace to his Catholic upbringing. She accused him of breaking his religious background\u2014that is what she did. If it came down to a choice between the Hon Bill English and Ms Dyson as to someone who has upheld Christian principles, then I know whom the public would choose. That person is not unfamiliar with late-night roadside interviews by the police, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThen what happened? As if that was not bad enough, the situation got worse. Two days later, the Hon Steve Maharey\u2014talking about the \u201Csisterhood\u201D\u2014after having lived a life of blameless excellence, went to the Sunday Star-Times, talked about the Coral Burrows murder, and blamed it on section 59 of the Crimes Act. It does not get worse than that. It is a double standard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022545ed799f96e44c0800f165fcf20e8f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022545ed799f96e44c0800f165fcf20e8f5\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I say to Mr Ardern that there is an old Confucius saying: \u201CWhen in hole, stop digging.\u201D The majority of New Zealanders only heard of Mr Ardern for the very first time when he broke the law\u2014enough said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI want to comment on what Mr English said in the House this afternoon with regard to the health matters that were discussed, and to remind the people on the Opposition side of the House\u2014sanctimonious in their amnesia\u2014that Mr McKeown, who sadly has since passed away, took Mrs Shipley to the Privacy Commissioner because she revealed too much information for his and his family\u2019s liking. The Privacy Commissioner said that Mrs Shipley had gone too far, but also acknowledged that when people give a member of Parliament the right to speak about them in Parliament, they have to accept that they are waiving the right to keep everything else about their health matters private. Mr English would have known that. He is a former Minister of Health\u2014a useless Minister of Health, and an equally useless leader of the National Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003ENational Party members have an appalling lack of memory, and they are a complete waste of space. They are such a waste of space that because their leader was out of the country yesterday, they could not hold a caucus. They could not even get organised enough to hold a caucus. Even in Labour\u2019s dark days politically, it still managed to organise a caucus. When the leader of our party was out of the country we could still get ourselves organised, as we can now. I suspect that National members were too busy plotting and scheming this morning to attend select committee meetings. There was a gaping hole on the other side of the table at a number of select committee meetings this morning. The National members were away plotting and scheming. There is a coup just sitting on the horizon, and they all know it. It is not \u201Cbill and coo\u201D but is \u201Cbye-bye Bill\u201D, because the coup is going after Bill English. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI have to confess that I thought Mr English would be a threat to the Labour Party. I thought in the early days that he would be a bit of a threat to us, but I was absolutely wrong. National is a boutique party. It has failed to recognise that the demographic group it is targeting is too small for National ever to become the Government. I say to Mr English that it is simple maths. The people he is targeting are too small a group. The closer National gets to ACT, the more it scares ordinary, middle New Zealanders. New Zealanders are not extremists. They want middle-of-the-road policies that reflect their desires and aspirations in life. The extreme policies of ACT scare the majority of New Zealanders witless. I say to National that the closer it gets to ACT, the more it scares its core group of supporters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003ENational is now so desperate that it is resurrecting failed ideas, and is resorting to prejudice and bigotry. Every time the words \u201Cculture\u201D and \u201Cspirituality\u201D are mentioned in the House, National members positively salivate. They lose control of themselves, and resort to saying things they should be ashamed of. The average New Zealander is ashamed to hear such things from a once-proud National Party, and even its own candidates have expressed that view in the past. Greg White, who was ranked No. 30 on the party list, said that the sorts of racist comments National members were making made him feel ashamed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003ENational is a party that is going nowhere. It needs to lift its game. New Zealand needs a good Opposition, but we are wasting our time looking over there at National for one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225d9273c95c9448fea89480438cd6c0b7\u0022\u003ESupreme Court Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022096d0ed7759c4e08882a1a7ab6d74b39\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d86904f2f38b40449e8a0c6b3b02fc23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d86904f2f38b40449e8a0c6b3b02fc23\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Supreme Court Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f707af1842d949569082070268aa91da\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 68\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c72e22b7382477c9b977f3f884c903d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222a0e1d81e3614e07be0d8d8c2487cbc3\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00228cab102b82b74facb77f49e0400a4e7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228cab102b82b74facb77f49e0400a4e7f\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E National is opposed to the Supreme Court Bill, and that fact is widely known. In looking at the name of the bill, we would be wise to reflect on what is implicit in those three words. We are talking about the abolition of the Privy Council, a court of excellence that has served New Zealand well for many, many years. We are also talking about ground-breaking constitutional legislation. We are talking about legislation that has been passed on the narrowest of margins. Indeed, it seems that the margin may be as low as three votes. It may be less, because there is some suggestion that some members of the Green Party are not wholly on the Government\u2019s side in respect of this issue. They are not wholly on the Government\u2019s side because they assert they are caring and committed on M\u0101ori issues, and it is the strong voice of M\u0101ori that this legislation not be enacted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWe are also talking, as we look at this title, about an asserted claim that the objective of the bill is to improve the accessibility of New Zealanders to justice. I was interested in an earlier interjection that the Privy Council was a court available only to the wealthy. That is the most foolish observation, and unfortunately I cannot identify which speaker made that comment. However, I would say that whilst assuredly the court is open to those who have wealth, it is also available for those who can access it through legal aid and also those who are of moderate means. When this Government talks about access to justice, that is one of the most hollow calls to arms we have yet seen from it. The Government has embarked on a range of initiatives that exactly counter that worthy proposition. Whether it is something like this, whether it is a planned restructure of the courts, which is the subject of work by the Law Commission, or whether it is swingeing fees hikes in respect of court fees, that is one thing this Government is not about\u2014access to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI spoke in the context of the title of this bill being ground-breaking constitutional legislation. It is interesting to reflect that the last piece of significant constitutional legislation was in 1986, when the Constitution Act was passed. Can members guess how many members of this Parliament voted for that legislation? The answer is that every single member of Parliament voted for it, which is a pretty amazing outcome, one might think. That is why many have said that for legislation of this type, it is not unreasonable that there be a substantial mandate\u2014a substantial mandate in the order of 75 percent. In this case we are talking about a margin of three votes or lower. Indeed, in 2001 the Attorney-General stated in an article published in the Independent that it was absolutely critical there be maximum support from the business community. And what support is there from the business community for this bill? There is absolutely no support. In fact, 75 percent of the people who fronted up to the Justice and Electoral Committee did not want this bill to pass. That is why I say that this is no day of pride for the New Zealand Parliament. This is a sad day. This is a day when the Government has broken with clear constitutional principle and has determined it will push this bill through in time frames that are not consistent with normal parliamentary process. Yesterday we had the second reading, today we are in the Committee stage, and it would not surprise me if tomorrow we are at the third reading stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022013b1bc6eeb34c99b92403ccc88ad214\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022013b1bc6eeb34c99b92403ccc88ad214\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E If I were a member of Parliament in the Zimbabwe Parliament, I would believe what is happening today. I believe that President Mugabe would ram through legislation of this kind to deprive the people of that country of the right to hearings at one of the best courts in the world, free from any interference from local people. Now, that is if I were in \u201CMugabeland\u201D, in Zimbabwe; but, no, I seem to be in \u201CHelengrad\u201D. I am in a place where there is little regard for constitutional principles and no regard for democracy, because this minority Labour Government has no democratic right to have this bill passed through the House. It received no mandate from the general election last year. In fact, the statistics for the Labour Party show that at the last election it received the lowest number of votes of those eligible to vote at a general election since 1935. It received about 31.9 percent of the votes of those entitled to vote at the election, so this bill is going through with a mandate of about 31.9 percent of those entitled to vote at an election. That is from the Labour Party viewpoint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill should be called something like the \u201CPro-Mugabe Bill\u201D or the \u201CBreakdown of the Westminster System Bill\u201D. It certainly is not a bill to which the people of New Zealand have given support. If the Labour Government thought the people of New Zealand supported this legislation, it would have had a referendum. There is absolutely no doubt that if it thought the people of New Zealand supported this bill, it would be out there with the very simple question: \u201CShould we abolish the right of appeal to the Privy Council?\u201D. There would have been a 1 or 2 year programme by the Prime Minister herself, basking in the democratic glory of putting things to the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMore time has been spent on hui on the foreshore and seabed than on this legislation. This legislation has been pushed out the back door and rammed through this Parliament in the same way that one would expect Mugabe to ram legislation through. We have Supplementary Order Paper 151 before us, with eight pages of stuff to be rammed through with this legislation. We barely have time to understand the legislation, in so far as some members are concerned, and now there are eight pages of a Supplementary Order Paper to try to fit into this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Government has no regard for the people of New Zealand. This minority Labour Government, with the support of about 31.9 percent of those eligible to vote in New Zealand, is imposing its will on the people of this country, despite the fact that the vast majority of people making submissions to the select committee said they did not want this legislation. This is a sad day for democracy in New Zealand. Really, it is a sad day for democracy\u2014that is the key to this legislation. The bill itself is almost irrelevant in that sense. This is a very, very sad day for democracy, for proper constitutional Government, and for the operation of the Westminster system in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EIf the Labour Government is not frightened of the result of a referendum, then why is it not having a referendum? It is as simple as that. There is nothing to be lost by spending another year or two on putting this through the referendum process; but, no, this Labour Government wants to ram this bill through the House, probably by the weekend. It knows that some members of the Green Party are looking at this matter very carefully and very clearly, and that they might possibly change their minds next week, because their voters will have got hold of them and said: \u201CNo, think about it.\u201D Over the weekend Green Party members might change their minds, and that is why this Labour Government insists on ramming this legislation through the House now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe last time I spoke on a bill like this was with Sir Robert Muldoon, and I, as a National Party member, voted against him. I crossed the floor with Derek Quigley and Ruth Richardson, because the matter was totally wrong and the way it was being handled was totally wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E If those seven M\u0101ori Labour Party members had any concern for their people, they would vote against this bill. Instead we have Huka M\u0101 me nga whena e whitu\u2014Snow White and the seven dwarfs. That is who we have in the Labour Party. The M\u0101ori members are seven dwarfs who have been cut down in their prime\u2014if they ever had one\u2014and who have no concern for the M\u0101ori people of New Zealand. In fact, this bill should be called the \u201CSnow White and the Seven Dwarfs Bill\u201D, because that is all we have from those M\u0101ori members. Mita Ririnui could not even finish his speech on the second reading last night. He spoke for about 4\u00BD minutes and did not come back from dinner to finish his speech. He was too busy filling his stomach to finish speaking on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002279b6a393ab814bb296aed80e7093fcd1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279b6a393ab814bb296aed80e7093fcd1\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (NZ Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I did not interrupt the member, because he has 5 minutes only, but the phrase he was using has already been ruled out of order. I ask that he stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00223c85b2428c934fcfb8a1ec5999170d6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c85b2428c934fcfb8a1ec5999170d6a\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The phrase has not been ruled out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a73a60e3b29c4c05b1482b181d8ce2fd\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce74c501a4bc493f8c787101a6b35403\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to speak while I am speaking to the point of order, she might be in trouble. The word \u201Cdwarf\u201D has been ruled out of order, not the phrase \u201CSnow White and the seven dwarfs\u201D. This is Parliament. We have a democratic system, the Westminster system, which has free speech. Are we to be told by you, Madam Chair, not only that we are to have the Privy Council removed but that free speech during this debate will go as well? It is a very simple, apt description of the seven M\u0101ori members of the Labour Party. Their attitude is that of dwarfs, and their leader may be called \u201CSnow White\u201D. It is a very appropriate summation of how the M\u0101ori people are being served by their seven dwarfs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022a11f28a23c704468831a9c42f7dd6508\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a11f28a23c704468831a9c42f7dd6508\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is not correct. It has been ruled out of order. When the member refers to other members, he must refer to them by their proper names.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef0950ffaa2b4428ba52b2701c820928\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef0950ffaa2b4428ba52b2701c820928\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I am seeking guidance. When a member is referred to as a \u201Cdwarf\u201D or by some other pejorative\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8ed6129763c483181684c231579f2d3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member speaking on the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b12f1dd7b814beb962dd7cbad826e82\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5d878ffc934f6aa774dd1ecbfdf964\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on that point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262c0785af1a6490e8530f28defce431c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It is supplementary to that point of order. I ask whether the ruling on the point of order means that one cannot say \u201Cthey are like\u201D or \u201Cthe story is relevant\u201D or use the word as a metaphor without actually calling members dwarfs. It seems to me that it is far too wide. If it is ruled out as a metaphor, it is far wider than the parliamentary rules against abuse require.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c921f944aab4733ae9a38bcddef1a78\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The Speaker ruled that when members refer to other members, they refer to them by their name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u002252f9c978dc7a4c28bf9a7b9f9420fc9c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252f9c978dc7a4c28bf9a7b9f9420fc9c\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E It will be a sad day for New Zealand when this bill passes into law. I am pleased that there are three M\u0101ori members here in the Chamber, because they are presiding over a bill that their people\u2014their voters\u2014have not approved. I know that those members do this at a cost. They will rue the day that they ignored the wishes of the M\u0101ori people and presided over a bill that takes away access to the Privy Council, something that this country has had the benefit of since 1841. It will be a sad day for New Zealand and for democracy when this bill passes into law as the Supreme Court Act. This is a sad day for democracy. In that regard I totally support what Dail Jones said, because this legislation will pass into law without a mandate from the New Zealand people, and without the mandate of this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe members on the Government side of the Chamber keep referring back to what happened in the 1990s, when a similar bill was first presented. It was withdrawn because there was insufficient support in the House for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281866e0ac1ab4869a847a4a62e0df96f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but she needs to speak on the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269af803e5a684b95a087f1a3e2caa93b\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. I am on the title, Madam Chair. If you had been listening to my speech you would have heard me talking about the Supreme Court Bill, but I will address the title more closely. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis bill should be called the \u201CFirst Steps to a Socialist Republic Bill\u201D. That is what it should be called, because that is the agenda of the Attorney-General, Margaret Wilson. That process started when this Government came into power. It removed the royal honours system, and is to change the title of Queen\u2019s Counsel to Senior Counsel. I have noted that there have been no appointments to the Privy Council in terms of members of this House. Senior members of the House are entitled to have \u201Cthe Rt Hon\u201D as part of their titles, but those things are all going. This legislation is the next major step in the Attorney-General\u2019s agenda of turning this country into a socialist republic. This bill should be called the \u201CFirst Steps to a Socialist Republic Bill\u201D because, at the end of the day, what someone like the Attorney-General wants is to leave her mark\u2014a mark that nobody in New Zealand wants. She may say that she has some support for her agenda, but she has no support whatsoever for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis bill is not aptly named. It would be more honest if the title included a description of socialist republicanism, because that is what it contains. One day New Zealand may move to become a republic, but it will make that move because the New Zealand public want it, not because Margaret Wilson has an agenda for it, and not because seven M\u0101ori MPs are sitting on the Government side of the Chamber, enjoying the fruits of power, supporting Margaret Wilson, and not listening to their constituents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e35c60094d9a4dfcad1cee9ff335ca83\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, you\u2019re just jealous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264624acdc77e481d8978d73984b5ab83\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Who is jealous of that? Jill Pettis should get a life. I could not care less about those trappings, and nor should she. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori members should do the job they came here to do. They are in power because of the M\u0101ori vote, yet they have totally ignored the M\u0101ori objections to this bill. They have treated them as if there were no credence to the arguments put by M\u0101ori. I have not heard any of those members answer the submitters on this bill directly, person to person. I have not heard any of them address Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan, Api Mahuika, the Federation of M\u0101ori Authorities, or any of the submissions that were properly put and validly made. That is why this bill is so wrongly titled and should be titled the \u201CFirst Steps to a Socialist Republic Bill\u201D. The Government wants us to be all the same. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EJohn Tamihere\u2019s comment earlier on said it all, when he said: \u201COnly for the rich\u201D. It is that old socialist chip on the shoulder, \u201Ccannot stand people who are successful\u201D attitude. That is how that Minister characterises this bill. Basically, he said the Privy Council is for the rich only. That is how far off the mark he is, and that Government is. As I say, it will be a sad day for this country when this bill passes into law. It will be a sad day for democracy when it passes into law, because there is no mandate for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022455a6d4cb8d347829752c7034f08d564\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022455a6d4cb8d347829752c7034f08d564\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The debate on the title of the Supreme Court Bill has attracted jibes from Government members across the Chamber that those opposed to the Privy Council are standing for the rich and powerful. The Privy Council has stood up more often against powerful interests in this country than any other separate court, as far as I can see. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Privy Council, I say to the Minister in the chair, Mr Tamihere, stood up for M\u0101ori in 1901, and stated that the Court of Appeal was wrong in 1877. The Privy Council stood up for taxpayers against the oil companies 12 years ago, when it stated that our Court of Appeal had been far too solicitous and careful about offending oil companies when the oil companies were trying to claim that the Government could not retain the rights to petroleum prospecting in contiguous blocks. The Privy Council stood up for 2,000 offenders who had been denied natural justice by the Court of Appeal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61d5c44cd3a4aa58737e53016489819\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: And legal aid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022064d1ef2d65244c7901a7fc83fa9c326\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and legal aid. It stood up for a Samoan overstayer who was claiming New Zealand citizenship, against the might of the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208553b4341084bf8bc105a73d136b415\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member needs to refer to the title; that is what is being debated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221653388b17524b1aaaaa0822f334547f\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am leading to the title. I am responding to the sole argument we have had from the Government side of the Chamber against the Opposition speakers who have been debating the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill might perhaps have been called the \u201CNew Supreme Court Bill\u201D. When I started practising law, the Supreme Court was subject to the Court of Appeal. That was bizarre; it was an odd way for the Supreme Court to be described. Its name was changed to the High Court, and that was more logical. But now we have legislation that sets up a court to be called the Supreme Court, and it will probably start with less public respect than a court was ever started with in this country. This court will be born in controversy. The so-called Supreme Court will be born in the midst of a campaign for signatures to a referendum to end it. The court will have no mandate. To give the Supreme Court that name, in a situation where the people will be reposing in it the least confidence they have ever managed to repose in a court, is a constitutional tragedy. This court will not be seen as supreme, but as subject to the whims of a tiny socialist, academic establishment that controls the Labour Party. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill is a \u201Ctrash the constitution\u201D piece of legislation. The Attorney-General, Margaret Wilson, is reported in today\u2019s New Zealand Herald as saying, when asked why this proposal is going ahead without a broad consensus, \u201CThat\u2019s just the way we do it. New Zealand has this wonderful, fluid constitutional arrangement.\u201D So we are setting up a court intended to be our supreme court, and to carry all the moral authority of New Zealanders looking for independent judgement and a level of dispute resolution that cannot be impugned as being subject to any kind of unfortunate influence. This legislation sets that court up in an environment where a good number of decent New Zealanders fear that a stacked court is being set up. A cosy academic cabal wants to make sure they can have in our top court only folk who feel and think like them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis is a court that is being established to do what Lee Kuan Yew\u2019s Government did when Singapore got rid of the right of recourse to its supreme court. I heard members of the Government jeering at that\u2014jeering at our concerns as being concerns for the rich. That is not what the sole representative of the Workers Party in Singapore thought when the right of appeal to the Privy Council went, so that Lee Kuan Yew and the Singaporean Government would no longer be embarrassed by the Privy Council overturning its tactical defamation writs, designed to quash independent politics in Singapore. The Singaporean Opposition, small and feeble though it may be, did not see the Privy Council as a colonial relic; it saw it as a defender of independence. It saw it as a defender of the reputation of the judiciary in Singapore, and as being genuinely impartial in its judgments. Yet the Opposition members in this Chamber scoff, and say the Privy Council is a rich person\u2019s court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022df729c0baf1b4936a523fb3c2bb8161c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022df729c0baf1b4936a523fb3c2bb8161c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (NZ National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to take a call to alert members of the Committee to the fact that there should be an amendment to the title of this legislation. The titles of bills should, in fact, convey to the reader and the public the essence and substance of what is proposed by the legislation. This bill goes far beyond setting up a Supreme Court in New Zealand, and I say to members that the title should be amended to reflect that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EFirst of all, this bill is not about ending the right of appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It is about denying New Zealanders the right of appeal to the Privy Council. That should be reflected in the title of this legislation. It is a denial, because the vast majority of New Zealanders have not had the opportunity to have a say on the major constitutional change that is incorporated in this bill. That is why the title should alert the people of New Zealand to the fact that their right of appeal to one of the most esteemed judicial authorities is being denied by the Government. There are many people in this Parliament who think that eventually that right of appeal should be denied, but I do not think the Attorney-General deserves the trust of this House or of the people in promoting that sort of denial of an appeal right. That is why I have moved a couple of amendments to this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI will certainly support the amendment moved by the former senior partner in one of New Zealand\u2019s leading law firms, Richard Worth, the National Party member for Epsom, who also wants to move changes to the title of this bill. When we have one of the senior commercial lawyers in New Zealand standing up in this Chamber\u2014this is not a university professor who has talked to 21-year-olds; this is a man who has been at the leading edge of commercial law in this country\u2014and saying that this title does not reflect the will of the Parliament, let alone that of the people, I think he should be listened to. Mr Worth, with his years of experience in practical law as it affects real businesses and real people, is saying that this bill is not just about a Supreme Court in New Zealand, but about denying the right of New Zealanders to go to the Privy Council. That right is being denied by an Attorney-General who has absolutely no right to foist that sort of change on New Zealand, because she has not earned the respect of the New Zealand public, or of this Parliament, that would entitle her to make those sorts of changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThis legislation is all about this Government\u2019s hell-bent desire to wreak constitutional change on this country by means of a majority of three votes. There is no moral authority to support any constitutional change by means of three votes\u2014by one party that does not have one elected constituency member giving them those votes. Not one electorate has endorsed the Green Party. So what authority does that party have to vote with this left-leaning rabble to pass a constitutional change that the title of this bill does not fairly reflect? There is absolutely no authority for the Government to make a change by three votes, and this change is being promoted by an Attorney-General who has not earned the right to lead any constitutional change in this country. That is why we have amendments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAs I said, when we have Richard Worth, the MP for Epsom, standing up and saying, on the basis of his years of experience of dealing with commercial litigation and contracting in this country, that this change is bad for New Zealand and that this title does not reflect what is in this bill, then the Attorney-General should listen to what he has to say. I say to the Labour Party that this constitutional change should not be brought about without the overwhelming endorsement of the people of New Zealand, and not without the overwhelming endorsement of at least three-quarters of this House. There is no support in this House for this change. The majority of constituency-based parties in this Parliament are not in favour of this legislation. This Government is relying on a list party to support it. That is not moral, when making a constitutional change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215b411966afc46d7aab7eabd8dbc0a80\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Rt Hon Winston Peters.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c16ce15e7dd24a80b65c796ef2c6c1a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c16ce15e7dd24a80b65c796ef2c6c1a9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. Firstly, the Standing Orders are relatively clear, and give guidance not only to members of Parliament but also, presumably, to presiding officers. The Standing Orders suggest that members from a party should be called in order of their seniority. I noticed that that has not been observed this afternoon, but I have been quiet about that. Secondly, I point out that a number of people have been seeking the call for a long period of time. While I do not in any way dispute the seniority of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, I suggest that in fairness to those members who have contributed to the debate and put time into this legislation this afternoon, they should be given a slot a little sooner than someone who has just turned up in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cee6add4aa346f9b73e85d937dca056\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The call has been given correctly to the Rt Hon Winston Peters. I ask him to please begin his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002260e5f4651fc142ba995d950e6302c560\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260e5f4651fc142ba995d950e6302c560\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Can I just say, for a start, that I heard John Tamihere\u2019s comment that the Privy Council was for the rich. Of course, people who have never practised law, or who have had their certificate of practice withdrawn, or who have jumped before they were pushed\u2014as he was\u2014would come to that view. He said that he does not lie and defraud people. [Interruption] No, I do not, but he does. Forging and uttering are serious criminal offences\u2014as is being five times drunk-in-charge. That is a serious criminal background. If Mr Tamihere wants to say what he said about me, he should say it here, then go outside the House and say it again\u2014whereupon he will find himself in the courts so fast that his feet will not touch the ground.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to say is that, if that is true, how come I went to the Privy Council against the rich and famous, against people who were given knighthoods by the Labour Party\u2014the Fay Richwhite and European Pacific connection\u2014because they gave the Labour Party millions of dollars in 1987? It was payback time, and they lost\u2014\u201CWe won; eat that!\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe second thing I want to say is that this bill should not be titled the Supreme Court Bill; it should be called the \u201CWhakam\u0101 (Kia Kaha te Republic) Bill\u201D, or the \u201CWhakam\u0101 (Up the Public Even Though It Is Bad for M\u0101ori Interests) Bill, or the \u201CSnow White and the Seven Dwarfs Bill\u201D. This bill should be called the \u201CSnow White and the Seven Dwarfs Bill\u201D. Here we have seven M\u0101ori members in seven M\u0101ori seats. There has to be a multiple franchise, they say\u2014since 1867\u2014because they represent, like no others in this Parliament, the narrow, particular M\u0101ori voice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288730f308c974cdaa20e5da7c6eddd7e\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what they say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222020d2fdc0804724a91ec5f9515ace29\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we are still waiting to hear it. They represent, unlike anybody else, the peculiar, particular, special M\u0101ori voice in this Parliament. So let us hear it. There is not a sound, not a murmur, not a syllable, not a mutter from them\u2014total silence. They have been amongst their leadership, around all the iwi, and no one in M\u0101oridom supports this bill. And what do those narrow, particular, special-interest groups in this House, represented by the M\u0101ori seats, say? There is utter silence from them\u2014not a syllable, not a sound, not a mutter, not a murmur. Back in the time of Pomare, in the time of Buck and Ngata, no one ever asked the question: \u201CWhat good are the M\u0101ori seats?\u201D, because then M\u0101ori had a special voice, and everyone respected it. It was profound and strong, and it was great for this country. So where is the M\u0101ori voice today from Labour? It is gone. Not a word\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d424fdd3dcb04cf3bf3119a8c9295fb3\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: Silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022078653dc8b964dda9f8d85ebbb5f6aee\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Totally whakam\u0101! They are too tired, or too shy, to speak for their people. As for the claim of the Prime Minister and Margaret Wilson that they have a mandate for this bill because it was in their manifesto, I ask whether Labour won the last election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d35b679e2234fdc9a28b9ac6c9bc826\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaee2c3623264a849be7ca46640cab41\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Dramatically, they failed. Did the Progressives, after seven name changes, help them win an election? No. They were still a minority. Members should listen and learn. Is this promise in the Green manifesto? No, it is not. If it were in the manifesto, it might give Green members the colour of right to say they have some sort of mandate, but they do not. Nandor Tanczos said that they, the Greens, would listen to the voice of M\u0101ori, but, then, he thought that getting rid of drug charges in respect of marijuana\u2014the Clean Slate Bill\u2014was more important. Out there in M\u0101oridom, any M\u0101ori thinking of voting for the Greens should think long and hard about, first, the destruction of M\u0101oridom through marijuana, and, secondly, the compromise he made with Helen Clark to pass this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair, Margaret Wilson, has no mandate whatsoever. She will be gone from New Zealand politics at the end of the next election\u2014of that I am sure. She will be a list member, and no list member will make it\u2014not from that party. It is the ultimate in arrogance for members ever to think they are, in terms of what they do, so popular that they can leave their stamp on this country regardless, and let others pay the price and pick up the consequences. Well, we make it very clear that\u2014short title or no short title\u2014when we are back in Government we will repeal this legislation. If we are to have constitutional change in this country, it will be done by people who have the authority of the people of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221a1d4937afec4a3689ec023c6efe816d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221a1d4937afec4a3689ec023c6efe816d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E This bill should be renamed. It should be referred to as the \u201CSupreme Betrayal of Justice Bill\u201D, because quite clearly that is what it is. We have a Prime Minister who comes into the House and tells us\u2014today, in fact\u2014that our constitution is made up of several arms, several documents, and a range of rights and entitlements that New Zealanders expect. One of those most definitely is the right to be heard fairly by a court, the right to take an appeal to higher authorities, and the right\u2014one that I would have thought all New Zealanders currently claim\u2014to go to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. If that right is a constitutional right, then surely overturning it has to take more than just three MPs who have done a dark deal with the Government to get some of their own sad legislation through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI am not going to refer to the M\u0101ori MPs in the Labour Party as the \u201CSeven Dwarfs\u201D. That would be unfair and, I believe the Chair would probably say, somewhat unparliamentary. But they have most definitely shown themselves to be the seven little gnomes at the bottom of Helen Clark\u2019s garden, and, like gnomes made of concrete, they apparently have no ability to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddae5b97d70a463682b4438210d2db95\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. I just remind members again: \u201CMembers may not be addressed by nicknames, first names and so on. They should be addressed by their proper name, or by the position or portfolio they hold.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc512f117ef34e23a66735737a307c1e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson, I have heard your judgment, and, with respect, if it were to stand you would destroy the debating chamber, because what was said was said by way of analogy. I have heard all sorts of analogies in the House, and the House is the better for them because they better describe the circumstance. I have heard analogy used on both sides of the House. For instance, today I heard somebody referred to as \u201CWiremu P\u0101keh\u0101\u201D. The person\u2019s name is Bill English. Who protested about that? No one did, because the colour and flavour of this Parliament is assisted by such analogies. With respect, I think you are drawing a far too narrow proscription. It is usually when the words are offensive, such as if someone were to say that someone was like Goebbels\u2014that would be offensive\u2014that they are ruled out. But who could possibly object to likening someone\u2014such as the Minister in the chair, Margaret Wilson\u2014to Rose Red? I am not trying to be difficult about it, Madam Chair, but I think your decision is far too narrow, and, with respect, I never did withdraw that statement that day. I left the House and was never asked to withdraw it. That is a fact. If you go back over the Hansard, you will find that is the truth. I got sent out of the House, but I did not have to withdraw the statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022834bd2ba847a4d9f984c4e67e8799c86\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, it is my clear understanding that the Speaker ruled it out, and we do have Speaker\u2019s ruling 6/1 (Supplement), which I spoke to. I take the member\u2019s point about being too precious, if one likes, about certain rulings, but the reference in question was certainly seen as being derogatory, and was ruled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d9ba244ec7c41699038625de7592f36\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I seek clarification from you. Are you now saying that referring to members as gnomes is ruled out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b85d6d8d58714d7ab37cbb2388a17d7b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not saying that, at all; what I am saying is that its use in the context in which it was used when the Speaker ruled on it was clearly ruled out as being offensive in respect of members. It was clearly ruled that members should be referred to by their correct names, not by nicknames. That ruling was very clearly given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ced886111ce41fabd107aab971e4644\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aef9c42899c4bcd8debfcf1d5be2fd0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have ruled on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a2df41f9d204a7eb1f6a31a1bc108b8\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: It is a separate point of order, and it is a point of clarification. Are you saying that we are not now allowed to say \u201Cand these members remind me of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs\u201D? Are you saying that you are ruling out \u201Cand these members can properly be said to have the characteristics of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs\u201D? Are you ruling out these members being called \u201CSnow White and the Seven Dwarfs\u201D? Are all those terms now on the new proscribed list?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcd68a536578459dbd8b3a3ef348c299\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I just remind members again that while points of order are being heard there will be silence. No, I am not ruling that, at all. What I am ruling is the Speaker\u2019s ruling that was given and the context in which it was given that day, and the respect that members are due in terms of their names and their nicknames. That has been ruled on many times.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd5cdf22bf744829ca4245c035c92a3\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f534029be314665805429d83f323093\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have ruled on this point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a95473ec956412891e871c114b63b6b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I know, and I am going to uphold you. My point relates but it is not a challenge to you, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022208026fe9c9d469aa1de535627f62d99\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, please be seated. There is no need for points of clarification when I have ruled on a point of order. If it is a new point of order, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203d8ec7e969c42c49cdd918a9f4da108\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I thank you for your ruling. It is going to make debating in the House most interesting. I wonder whether you would now be prepared, as Deputy Speaker, to call the Hon Trevor Mallard back to the House and demand that he apologise for his atrocious breach earlier this afternoon of your new ruling, when he referred to Bill English as \u201CWiremu P\u0101keh\u0101\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265ba68beb3db4c3a9d90ab9bd88e8686\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. As the member well knows, I am ruling on a point of order as has been ruled now. It is not my duty or position to rule on anything that is past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e48e18c9fc3e4ec0b1bef961ce5285dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. With respect, if you are going to make a judgment that narrow, then I think we should recall the Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202d5e94cd31048a8963e80368fac8251\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Peters, are you speaking to the same point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bfa527b8794240cdb046ba75a150960a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am raising a new point of order. There was a famous example in the British Parliament two centuries ago where a famous leader referred to his opponents as resembling nothing so much as a group of extinct volcanoes. At the end of the day, if we come to the sort of judgment that you have just made, then this Parliament will be the joke of Western democracies. Members will not be able to say anything of any colour or any flavour; they will not be able to use any analogies. It will always be \u201Cthe honourable member this\u201D or by his or her name. I do not think Mr Hunt had that in his mind, and I do not think you have it in your mind, either, but that is the consequence. The next time someone on the Government side or the Opposition side hears something slightly unfavourable by way of analogy, up he or she will jump and use your judgment as a precedent. I say that perhaps you would like to think about that before you come down with such a narrow judgment this afternoon. If any of my colleagues in this House think that I was referring to them when I used that famous fairy tale analogy, then he or she should have risen and opposed it, but they did not. Not one did\u2014that is the point. Why are we rushing to defend others who find that robust debate, which is to be found on the marae of this country, cannot be used in New Zealand? More particularly, the M\u0101ori members know full well that that is how M\u0101ori talk\u2014by way of analogy and illustration. Besides which, I hate to say it but sometimes people do not respond because the glove fits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218fc705c33a9484586a6caf1719fa2eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for the points he has made. [Interruption] Please be seated. This matter has been dealt with. I am going to move on. I call Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4eb0948867041c0b9ec38cb65af4e54\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I have been listening quietly to the debate because I think members are now expressing concern at the standard we are setting, which will be quite difficult for us to keep. I wonder whether it might not be better to ask you, before you make a final ruling on the matter, either to reflect on it or, alternatively, to call back the Speaker to get a view from him on the matter. I am worried. There are times when members, in the heat of debate, make a comment that can be quite humorous, but under this ruling the member concerned may well have to withdraw and apologise because he or she is outside the ruling. Of course we want to keep standards, and of course we ought to, but there are times when there is some humour and some giveaway lines that we all chuckle at\u2014even the recipient, often\u2014and it flows across the House. I wonder whether we might be strapping ourselves down a little bit tightly. Rather than make a definitive ruling now on this particular issue, I suggest that you might want to reflect a little and give us a ruling a little later on some parameters around it, just so that we can still have some humour while we go through some of these debates, as we have done in the past.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63ddce3ad5b42e3951ad874ba9c9868\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly take the member\u2019s point that we certainly do not want to curb vigorous debate, humour, and everything else. This matter has been ruled on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222472d2146b544464ae6b536f265c31ca\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I just want to be clear. The Hansard record will show that what I actually said was that the M\u0101ori members reminded me of \u201Cgnomes at the bottom of Helen Clark\u2019s garden\u201D. Am I unable to say that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002268b2076f57b149039a73deaa7fd91708\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The matter has been ruled on. Please continue your speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022868696eada5e47a7b36b3a6cf800eb88\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a393aca51b894b9cbf4a60866f921e85\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. It is the context in which it is said, and that is how I judged the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e21d06ef4b3483e9acf8d377fe1ef40\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I do not understand it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022928256d8a4db4eecb6258fdae33903b4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee, please continue your speech. I have ruled on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222180419108034478bae57a487a6aafa7\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I have somewhat lost my thread, I must say, and I think that is very unfair. I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e174c908c20a4b518ccea35b0124f70b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Brownlee is raising a point of order. I just remind members again that there will be silence during points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b5ec9ebd86b45518f6da8db029e918a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I move, That the Speaker be recalled. Members require a more definitive position on this matter. I am sorry, but the whole thread of what I was saying has been lost in all of this. Further, I think the suggestion that a ruling given on a day when there was a degree of acrimony around a certain statement should then be related to another description that hardly fits, I think, and was certainly not an intended political insult, leaves us in a difficult position. I have moved that the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228115d2db584b4f83b4e31bb70c030c84\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a debatable motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022060db9d01d2843a1a8a37e5135880e57\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to, and House resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022215dd33d76274c699c193de377b37f02\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022254e4169e1334534ae6c5e36173810eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022254e4169e1334534ae6c5e36173810eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Members have concern about a ruling that I have given on how members should be addressed. This has been referred to three times in recent speeches. Members are concerned that my ruling is too rigid, and that it does not allow for robust debate and humour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c4eb7272bea14a9e924534713a83a023\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c4eb7272bea14a9e924534713a83a023\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I did not call you back lightly or for any reason other than just to get  clarification on this matter. I listened to the general debate this afternoon, and it was a vigorous debate. I think it was one of those occasions when we see parliamentarians cut loose and they say the things they are thinking. I personally was described in all sorts of different ways during that debate, as were numerous colleagues on this side of the House. There were accusations made about the motives that some of us may or may not have. In those accusations there were descriptions of personalities, as well, and the Hansard record will show that very clearly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E In the course of this afternoon we have had a little bit of trouble around this term \u201CSnow White and the Seven Dwarfs\u201D being applied to the seven M\u0101ori MPs from across the Chamber. I do not believe that in any of those circumstances it was meant as a derogatory term. It was meant as a bit of provocation to get them to speak. Provocations to get members on their feet to declare a position are surely part of the debate that one would expect in a Parliament. I chose not to use that descriptive, but, rather, said that the M\u0101ori MPs reminded me of seven gnomes at the bottom of Helen Clark\u2019s garden that were made of concrete and seemingly unable to speak. I do not think that was a personal comment on any one of them. It was a reference to the fact that in this bill there are issues that are of concern to the wider M\u0101ori community, and there is an expectation that those concerns would be represented by those members, or, if they cannot be represented, that there would be at least some explanation from those members as to why they cannot represent that view. The real underlying point here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f84ba2c006dd443d88efcf5af51deb6a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please come to the point of order quickly? I am ready to rule.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c7c935588424c34be041bf841a75481\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The real underlying point is that if we are to be constrained simply to a formal style of address from one member of Parliament to the other, then this House is most likely to lose a considerable amount of colour. The thick skins that we are all known to have will become incredibly thin, and the quality of the work that we do in here would suffer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022f872f35807fa472294336786132f1ee3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f872f35807fa472294336786132f1ee3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have no difficulty in ruling about this at all, and I do not need any further assistance. I refer members to Speaker\u2019s ruling 6/1 (Supplement), which states: \u201CMembers may not be addressed by nicknames, first names and so on. They should be addressed by their proper name, or by the position or portfolio they hold.\u201D There are no exceptions. I was present during the whole of the general debate today. It was a vigorous debate, and so it should be. That is the whole point of a general debate. But members are not to be referred to in terms such as gnomes or dwarfs. They are members or honourable members, and that is the end of the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022e93bae937c7e4606a9e518e90cfa1b76\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e93bae937c7e4606a9e518e90cfa1b76\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (Junior Whip\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cca0ef451ce4679850e819b6bacde1f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is very little to rule on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f56e866e2b0465cb1cff31bbe8dba7f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Could we just take it to the next step? Are we entitled to say that members have the characteristics of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, and that their behaviour may be like that of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022838bfeedb95446c089fa52baee7f0375\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022838bfeedb95446c089fa52baee7f0375\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will please be seated. I have given a specific ruling, and I will not go into hypotheses. Members must be referred to as members or honourable members. There are lots of ways that they can be accused of not entering into a debate\u2014all the types of things that are made. I am sure there is a great deal of skill that a lot of members have in this regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ead7ebd846344ab6a649b8afd43b5100\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ead7ebd846344ab6a649b8afd43b5100\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is by way of clarification, because it is well known, as you say, that we cannot individually name somebody other than to call him or her by his or her proper title. How do we get on in the case where it is a general reference over several members? I do not know whether we have a specific ruling, and that is the issue that has come up\u2014to describe a collective, if one likes, in a way that is a bit humorous and a bit of fun. One of the things that we try to encourage in this House is to have a smile every now and again, because it is a rare event. It would be unfortunate indeed if we got to the stage where we had a ruling that actually curbed our ability, rare as it is, to inject a little bit of humour from time to time. That is really the issue that concerns me. I wonder whether you might give us a little guidance on that aspect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00228c3e7b652a3f44f08c8c3cebac0a5212\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c3e7b652a3f44f08c8c3cebac0a5212\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will. I can remember when I was a student and came down here in 1959 to listen to a debate where the Government of the day was referred to as \u201CAli Baba and the Forty Thieves\u201D. Of course, that was out of order, and was ruled as such by the then Speaker in 1959. Until 1995 the rule was even more stringent\u2014that is, only electorates could be used. With MMP, for collective terms the rule is Standing Order 117, which states there must be no personal reflections. It is within the bounds of the wit and intelligence of members here to say what they want to say without having to refer to that sort of comment, and I do not want that any further. I do not need any further assistance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00222e65f60bca9a4fd488f0f68d7a8583ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222e65f60bca9a4fd488f0f68d7a8583ff\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I will just give you an illustration. By your ruling, I do not think that Dr Cullen would be able to make a speech. To be fair to him, he makes pretty colourful speeches. They are valuable in terms of the parliamentary atmosphere, and it would be very regrettable if that had to stop. I do not think David Lange would have been able to make any speeches at all if that ruling had stood. For example, the comment: \u201CSomeone puts me in mind of nothing so much as a ventriloquist\u2019s dummy.\u201D might be a bit close to the mark, but the point is capably made. There is a big difference between humour, irony, and analogy, and a straight-out vicious remark that is a reflection on someone\u2019s personality. It is a given in politics that members can have a rather less than flattering view of their opponents. A famous American said that his opponent put him in mind of nobody so much as Abraham Lincoln if one can imagine a short, fat, dishonest Abraham Lincoln. That is probably going a bit far in this Parliament, but we have to be very careful about this rule; otherwise, I will have to find myself a new occupation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022e422af7d554f45dd8d5455053ce511df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e422af7d554f45dd8d5455053ce511df\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will not have to do that, because as one of the most able members in this House he is well able to use his vocabulary and language so that he does not have to. The fact that he is able to speak demonstrates that the ruling is not restrictive. But I say to members that I have ruled that term out, and that term is ruled out. If I am called back again, I will be tempted to ask people to leave the Chamber. I have made a ruling, and that is it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002299f1e4c9a76f451f82da263f73e7ec23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299f1e4c9a76f451f82da263f73e7ec23\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ca36c7777384310ad0de0540e3bcf66\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think there is anything extra to say. It had better be new.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5ce3b1c29444c56be3b0072756f598b\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I have listened to get guidance, because if, when you have gone, the Chair takes the ruling as meaning, effectively, that those words may not be used because they are unparliamentary, I do not think that is what you intend by your ruling. For instance, I believe that within the spirit and the words of the rule it is quite permissible to say: \u201CI am reminded of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. I wonder who the wicked queen is. Which one is Snow White?\u201D. That is creating an analogy and painting a word picture. It is not, in terms of the rule, addressing a member. It is a shorthand way of forming an image, and I believe that you do not intend to rule that out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d1ea004494f4a2f98ef894401de03fa\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not. I have said that if members have the wit, the humour, and the intelligence, of course they can do that, but they cannot specifically refer to members other than by their name or their rank.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002234575af07bf340eca0dcb979fc5231d8\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000533\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002262e4973821db467a92816c893cd54732\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title  (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022f114f1b8b2904edb824f5d876c23fc48\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f114f1b8b2904edb824f5d876c23fc48\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E Goodness knows how we will get on tonight when we come to the \u201CGnome Bill\u201D! However, let me just say to those M\u0101ori members over there that we hear so often from them about reference to the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. Well, one of the key principles of the treaty must be the reference that all of us have to stand before the courts as equals. No doubt, when that treaty was signed and intentions were there, those people who signed understood that one of those principles meant the right to appeal directly to the Crown via the legal committee of the Privy Council. For those members to come into this House and have no view about why that is being changed, to sit mute and not represent the views of the M\u0101ori people, who do not want this bill to go through, and to sit mute and not even say why they have decided to vote against those whom they are here to represent is quite unacceptable. It leads to a suggestion that there is a degree of muzzle on that faction within the Labour caucus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EFurther, where are the Labour Party lawyers who are experts in this field? Not the law professor, not the various people with legal degrees who have never practised, but where is Russell Fairbrother? Why is he not part of this debate? The Opposition has put forward speakers who are well experienced in the law, people who have been to the Privy Council, and people who understand the value of going to the Privy Council. The Opposition has made a case for this title to fall over. The Government has not adequately said what is so good about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E I want to ask a final question. If this bill is to stand and appeals to the Privy Council are to go, why does Helen Clark not relinquish her \u201CRt Hon\u201D title? Why does Helen Clark not say: \u201CI no longer want to be referred to as the Rt Hon Helen Clark, Prime Minister of New Zealand, member of the Queen\u2019s Privy Council. I simply want to be Helen Clark, potential leader of the Republic of New Zealand.\u201D? Because that is what we are heading for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u00224916fd500f434658b8b13f3b241d4284\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224916fd500f434658b8b13f3b241d4284\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (NZ Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002215f3275e24984bae96f0be440a020b97\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000539\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000540\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CSupreme Court Act 2002\u201D and substitute the words \u201CRepeal of Privy Council Appeals Act 2003\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e1e0fcbb55cb45c684526ae1a2146a85\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8e59ea9d7dc4785a0e55bc6022551df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8e59ea9d7dc4785a0e55bc6022551df\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I do not think that you put that amendment correctly, and I do not think that it has been appropriately identified. When you identified the amendment, you did not refer, in fact, to what the planned change was. The planned change as I have it is the \u201CSupreme Court and Repeal of Appeals to the Privy Council Act 2003\u201D. You did not put that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f2e06e154b040e581ad20ae6d5fbd26\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: We have three amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CSupreme Court Act 2002\u201D and substitute the words \u201CSupreme Court and Repeal of Appeals to the Privy Council Act 2003\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a91702ebe0b49988fe9d430d48798e4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000545\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000546\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CSupreme Court Act 2002\u201D and substitute the words \u201CAbolition of the Right of Appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council Bill\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dca48b931122468d91ca75a1500202f3\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00227440fc167cce4dec9c12e5fcb221caab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b7e10d866d84dfa829d1c8e540747a1\u0022\u003EPart 1  Supreme Court of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002221d3256f5bbc4469bcb7dda01c49e02c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221d3256f5bbc4469bcb7dda01c49e02c\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This part sets out the purpose, amongst many other things, but I believe that that purpose is not clearly set out. The hidden purpose of this legislation is to turn New Zealand into a republic. That is one of the many steps that this Labour Party\u2014this minority Labour Government\u2014is taking in order to change New Zealand\u2019s way of life. If this bill can proceed through this Committee on a vote of about 62 to 56, on a regular basis, what will it take to change New Zealand into a republic? Will there be another bill next week, once again supported by the Greens, on a 62 to 56 basis? We could have a republic this time next year by the way this bill is proceeding. We have so many things being done by this Labour Party to move towards a republic: the abolition of Queen\u2019s Counsel, the abolition of rights of appeal to the Privy Council, and the many measures being taken without the approval of the New Zealand public. With the support of only about 31.9 percent of those eligible to vote at the last election, the minority Labour Government is ramming this bill through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAgain, what is the purpose of this bill? The purpose of this bill is so that the Greens can have the benefit of Nandor Tanczos\u2019 Clean Slate Bill transposed into a Government bill, whereby all those people who have been convicted of smoking marijuana over the years can have those convictions silenced\u2014not overturned, but silenced. Those people will no longer have convictions in New Zealand for marijuana use, if they have had no other convictions of that type in the last 10 years. That is one of the purposes of this bill. The Government says that it is against cannabis smoking and such like, but the Government is doing a deal with the Greens to support all those people who have been smoking cannabis over all those years, and to support Nandor Tanczos\u2019 Clean Slate Bill. That is one of the hidden purposes behind this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThat deal has been done with the Greens to get this Supreme Court Bill through this Parliament. It is absolutely atrocious that that is the sort of level to which this minority Labour Government will sink, and it is the level to which the Greens have always aspired. When Keith Locke next speaks in this Parliament about the rights of the individual, and about the protection of the individual\u2014a person such as Mr Zaoui\u2014he knows, and we know, that he has no sincerity whatsoever, because the rights of appeal to the Privy Council for the likes of Ahmed Zaoui will be removed. If there was any opportunity for Mr Zaoui to go to the Privy Council, it will have gone. He will be taken well out of the sphere of the closed shop that is part of the legal system, the New Zealand political system, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThose people who are appointed to whatever court it is in New Zealand, by New Zealanders, are often affected by their New Zealand environment. The classic comparison is with the Samoan appeal in the early 1980s when Mr Rosenberg took an appeal to the Privy Council on behalf of the Samoan people. No one thought he would have a show, but he went to the Privy Council and he won. That type of right will soon be gone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Locke sits here smugly in the future and tries to convince me that he is really concerned about people\u2019s welfare, safety, and constitutional rights in New Zealand, I will know that that is absolute rubbish. Keith Locke, who is sitting here right now in front of me, is voting for the right of this minority Labour Government to remove protection and opportunity for people such as Ahmed Zaoui, and other groups like Samoans. There are many hundreds of New Zealanders who were deprived legal aid, and the Privy Council said they should have been granted legal aid and the right to appeal. Those types of downtrodden people, whom the Greens have so often said they support, will not have that right of appeal any more in future as a result of the passage of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThey will not have any extra rights, because virtually the same people who made the decisions in the Court of Appeal will make the decisions in the Supreme Court. Their study, backgrounds, and such like will be exactly the same. There will be no change whatsoever. As far as the purpose of this legislation is concerned, I believe that it does not improve access to justice. Access to justice for 12 cases means that there are still only 12 cases. Access to justice would be improved if the Labour Government removed the increase it introduced in High Court filing fees, which took them up to about $1,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u00223282863822584b189d07ff58960e1365\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223282863822584b189d07ff58960e1365\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E I found it humorous to listen to speakers on the other side of the Chamber, particularly after we had had a discussion on humour and irony. The humour I found was to discover that parties of the right were suddenly concerned about justice and fair dealing. In all of my life I do not think\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a36510ec8a6428fa089a870a9601b28\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. We have just had a ruling from the Speaker on how members can call people and describe them. I take offence to my party being called a party of the right. I ask that that member refer to this party, perhaps, as a party of the centre. I do not want to be associated with a party of the right. I object to that. In terms of the ruling that has been made, that is totally out of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022460ba85fed7a4e1a8e8832bffb08ed3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022460ba85fed7a4e1a8e8832bffb08ed3a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. The member knows that that is a debating matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb8091094164f7ea928ecf6742696ab\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00223072384ab37944c28a554f62a61f1d5f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223072384ab37944c28a554f62a61f1d5f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. I have made a ruling on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224050b645abd143adaf30b21d2f1932d1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. If you have made a ruling on that, then it is contrary to what the Speaker has just told us. He said that we could not refer to groups of people in derogatory terms. That is what he said. He made it very clear. Mr Robson most definitely meant his comment as a derogatory term. He should refer to parties of the Opposition either in a way that presumably does not breach the Speaker\u2019s ruling or by their particular name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b01a4c05f6f48d5a0eafd66e62b7a4f\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, I point out that we are entering into the realm of stupidity, in my opinion. The lexical terms \u201Cright\u201D and \u201Cleft\u201D go back to the convention in 1789 of the French Revolution. They are accepted as general terms for parties to the right and to the left. I do not find it offensive if anyone says that I am in a party to the left\u2014or a party to the right. That is fine. In my opinion, this point of order is just pure sophistry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227710c337d45441258b7915bcc356a139\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. The member may not find offence at being called a member of a party on the extreme left. However, New Zealand First is New Zealand\u2019s only common-sense, centre of the road party, and we like to be called that. We did not leave the parties that we were once members of\u2014like some from Labour, when it was a right-wing loony-tune party. Another one\u2014[Interruption] No, we did not change our name seven times. This party has had just one name. The party that member belonged to changed its name seven times. What an effrontery! But that member should describe us as a party of the Opposition, or talk about us as New Zealand First and the only New Zealand centre party\u2014and do it properly. If he wants to get narrow about it, that is it, but again, if he has been through seven parties, any description would fit him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00221dcc5c5b84674620ae9c30221f108dba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dcc5c5b84674620ae9c30221f108dba\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Just ruling on the point of order, as Chair, I certainly do not regard that as a derogatory comment. As the Speaker referred to earlier, it might not be an accurate description, but that is a matter for debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af64db913f844350bb7eb76e1b3dcf7e\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a7aa6d094e4c3ab3ca7e70379bcee0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a7aa6d094e4c3ab3ca7e70379bcee0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224dce970e9e1e45efae70e4f748062172\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: But you have not ruled on my matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002237d46ab515524273a8fa06d5ca0bf599\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237d46ab515524273a8fa06d5ca0bf599\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224076cb6874c34dd989126e9a4839ade6\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: It must be. You have ruled that you do not regard the statement as being derogatory. With the greatest respect, I say that your view is your own. It is my view that I am concerned about here. In my view\u2014and that is what matters in terms of the Standing Orders\u2014being referred to as a member of a party of the right and being linked with ACT, for example, is derogatory. I do not want my party to be called a party of the right. I am a member of New Zealand First. I am a member of a centre party. I am not in a party of the right. I believe that for a party to be called a party of the right is derogatory. With all due respect, I do not care what you might think it is all about. The member should withdraw and apologise, and we can then get on with the debate. That will save a lot of time. The Speaker will not have to be recalled to have this matter clarified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00221165af74914f42d199fca69539c9ee06\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221165af74914f42d199fca69539c9ee06\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I, as Chair, have ruled on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1ea10ffbdcd4600adb97dc4265fd2bb\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: I respect your ruling, Madam Chairperson. I take it that a member has taken offence at a term in this debate, so I withdraw and apologise. At a later time, we could possibly rule on whether the use of the terms \u201Cright\u201D and \u201Cleft\u201D is offensive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dea288e36fe4abd94296360e3df9bdb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has withdrawn and apologised. Please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216246f6ffa264931a91c20ef39da8ac2\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: The humour I found was that certain parties have spoken in terms of justice and fairness. In all my political life, I have never associated many of the people in those parties with a great concern for human rights. For instance, recently I read a press statement of the Rt Hon Winston Peters where it seemed to me that he was advocating we give justice in this country only to people who may be of the Christian faith. If one is Muslim, agnostic, atheist, or Buddhist, one can whistle that justice goodbye. That was my reading of that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e70fb1cde00943b1a86e1a3f5866a2d2\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. With respect, you could say that this is a debating matter, but it is not now\u2014when a member says something so offensive to a lot of people who are members of New Zealand First, whose beliefs are not as he has just outlined. I do not want to be categorised in that way. He knows full well that what I did say was that terrorists costing us hundreds of thousands of dollars should never have got here in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4935b2c10014ddf912ddced338ace2a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4935b2c10014ddf912ddced338ace2a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has taken offence to that. Would the member like to withdraw that remark.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c66a96a0d9747f399fd1db6c5224122\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise, if the member took offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThe key question that I think members have misunderstood, and it is important that I can perhaps elucidate it for them, is that they have got mixed up that the replacement of the Privy Council is exactly that. There is a replacement\u2014a third level of appeal. Members may quibble whether that third level of appeal is as good as the appeal level that is replaced, but they cannot quibble with the fact that there is a third level of appeal. So the people they are concerned about\u2014who will not have a right to appeal, for instance, to the Court of Appeal\u2014will give them no need to be concerned. Those people will have a right of appeal to the new and third layer of appeal within New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EMost of those who support that change will point out that that will also give greater accessibility to a level of appeal that before was only the preserve of those who could, in the main, afford to take a case to the Privy Council, or, in a very small minority, who could access legal aid or some other form of payment. But for the great number of people in New Zealand, the level of appeal that replaces the Privy Council is an extension of their right to appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EConcerning the question of the famous Samoan case that went to the Privy Council\u2014I was supportive of, and overjoyed with, the Privy Council\u2019s ruling; I thought it was very, very good, and a lawful appeal\u2014I point out that it was the New Zealand Parliament that overturned the Privy Council\u2019s ruling. Some people who have spoken about this debate outside, and even inside, this Parliament were connected to the decision of the then National Party\u2014joined, unfortunately, by some Labour members at the time\u2014to overturn that decision. I am absolutely confident that a New Zealand court, which is the third level of appeal in New Zealand, would also come to the right decision, and the question would then be whether the New Zealand Parliament would overturn the finding of a New Zealand court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022 data-id=\u002212294a9f440d4c28b60af587bb217595\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212294a9f440d4c28b60af587bb217595\u0022\u003EDr the Hon LOCKWOOD SMITH (NZ National\u2014Rodney):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make these points very quickly. I have been quietly listening to this debate on a hugely important issue for New Zealand. The first thing I noticed is that this bill has been drafted in two parts. To curtail the debate to just two parts on something so important is shocking. As I look at the purpose of the Supreme Court Bill, I am shocked. I would have thought that the purpose of what is proposed as the highest court of this land\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u002293b4444db1964032ac28dade152a717d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002293b4444db1964032ac28dade152a717d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry to interrupt the member, but the time has come for the dinner break.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00221b058ef462d243f59aa1fcd7798b4e60\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b058ef462d243f59aa1fcd7798b4e60\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (NZ National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E The Hon Dr Lockwood Smith has asked me to take his place, and that is significant because National has opposed this bill right through the first and second readings. During the Committee stage, the National representatives who were on the select committee, the Hon Georgina te Heuheu and my colleague Richard Worth, made that opposition very evident. I was a member of the select committee, and from my office I have been listening with great interest to the way the bill has been proceeding. I know that Opposition members have been putting up a very strong argument that this bill is an abuse of privilege. It changes the constitution, and has no standing at all. It has not gone to the public, where the majority of people should have been able to have a say as to whether they believe that this sort of change to the way we have done things should happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI want to start by just setting the scene, under Part 1, about where this highest court we will have\u2014the appellant court, the Supreme Court, which we are opposed to\u2014actually fits into the bigger scheme of things. The courts are one of the three essential institutions of New Zealand\u2019s democratic form of Government. The other two are the legislature and the executive. Our constitution recognises the importance of the independence of the judicial powers from the legislative and executive powers, but this bill will compromise those powers. We want to make sure that we highlight those points during the Committee stage. We would ask the Minister to take a call to explain why this measure is necessary, why there is so much misunderstanding of it, and why its interpretation will be so fraught with difficulty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe importance of the judicial functions of Government, and of their independence from other forms of Government, applies to all the courts, and that is a very important point. But with this bill there is also an added dimension because of the proposed changes that are concerned with the ultimate judicial power\u2014the final appellant court or Supreme Court. Most of the decisions of the final appellant court in a country with a constitution like ours have a very wide effect. They have an effect outside New Zealand on the foreign institutions that we might be dealing with. What this court will do has far-reaching implications, and that is something the Government has not taken on board, at all. It is very important that the existing appeal structure is not altered, unless what is put in its place is of the highest quality, and we have some doubts about whether that will happen. That is one of shortcomings of this bill. We do not believe that we have here the expertise we have enjoyed in the past by being able to take our cases to the Privy Council.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002296742ab6436f4fa8812ed673f9d8d8ca\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Oh! They can\u2019t even choose a leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a8b68de2ffa418f8d5861528d186f13\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I hope the member over there takes a call, because it is all very well to sit there and interject. We are talking about a major constitutional change, and what does that member want to do? He wants to sit over there and glibly make stupid statements, when this bill is making major constitutional changes. Government members do not want to stand up and debate the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI refer also to the separation of powers. If we look at the commentary on the bill, at page 10, we see that the legal profession made some very important points. I want to highlight what it said, and I quote: \u201CThe Criminal Bar Association of New Zealand submitted that the bill proposes to \u2018replace a top free system with an expensive inferior system\u2019 \u201D. That is what the Criminal Bar Association said, and National supports that system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a94ec0eb23495498c6750d13b5f84e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a94ec0eb23495498c6750d13b5f84e\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to address the provisions of the bill. I am very much aware\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022798a16ca19ec4af8bbea489cb0430e00\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I hope that in the course of the night I may get a call from you. I want to give preliminary notice that I would like the comments I make translated into M\u0101ori for the benefit particularly of Ng\u0101puhi and Ng\u0101i Tahu listeners, who, I understand, are gathered and prepared to listen to comments that are made. I just note that the M\u0101ori interpreter is not here, and that whilst it may be possible to have Georgina te Heuheu translate, in what is probably a departure from the recognised practice of the House, I would prefer that there be an opportunity for me to offer those comments in M\u0101ori, as I really do not think that my facility in the language is up to making a sufficient contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022381695bbbf0b44b9b5e08c7d6ee150cf\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for making that contribution in the manner he has done. If interpretation is required, it is done as a matter of course. My second point is that during points of order, members may not refer to persons listening outside the House. That is outside the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225825400889274db69581038e1e0403da\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I was about to say, there has been a great deal of discussion and debate around this matter over the past 4 years, and for some of us probably over the past 30 years. However, I understand our task here this evening is to concentrate on the specific provisions of the bill, and that is what I intend to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe first matter I wish to draw the attention of the Committee to is the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of the Government, and to the substantive matter in that Supplementary Order Paper, which is a new clause 42A. That provision arose out of the necessity to ensure that there is a Chief High Court Judge who will be able to ensure the proper administration of justice of the court at that level, and that is why that provision has come in at this time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe only other matters I wish to draw attention to include the excellent work done by all the members of the select committee, and the amendments that were supported by the majority. In particular, there is a vastly improved, redrafted purpose clause that more fully sets out the purpose of the legislation, and to some extent, I think, puts the debate in a context. I would be interested to hear honourable members\u2019 comments actually directed to the redrafted purpose clause, because I think it greatly improves the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe other matter of substance in this part of the bill that was addressed by the committee related to the inclusion of the \u201Cinterests of justice\u201D provision within the grounds for appeal, and the reordering of the specific grounds for appeal that are in that particular clause. I refer to the new draft of clause 13, \u201CCriteria for leave to appeal\u201D. I think that is also an improvement. It makes clear, of course, that in the interests of justice\u2014and if the court so decides on hearing the application\u2014leave may well be granted on other grounds, but it does not require leave to be given at every possible opportunity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EIn respect of the provisions relating to the number of members on the court, I found the debate and commentary very useful, and, I think, helped by the addition in the legislation of one member. Experience in the District Court and the High Court has shown us that when we have limits, it is at times extremely difficult to get the necessary legislation through to ensure the smooth administration of justice by increasing the numbers. So I think that was a very helpful provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EAlso, I think the specific provisions in this part generally enhance a clearer understanding of what, in essence, is quite a straightforward and simple piece of legislation in terms of its drafting and intention. That is not, of course, to take away anything from the arguments that surrounded this legislation, but the select committee was the place to have those arguments. My understanding of the process is that this House should concentrate on the specific provisions of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022db6a0a752ea848d38c492cbe1abce896\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db6a0a752ea848d38c492cbe1abce896\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make some comments on the purpose clause, which the Minister has just referred to. The bill as introduced had a very simple purpose clause that sensibly set out the very simple reason for the bill, which is basically to establish a Supreme Court, to end appeals to the Privy Council, and to make amendments that follow on from that. We now have a new purpose clause, which in my view is symptomatic of all the gobbledygook and wiffle-waffle that the Government is known for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI can see why the Government has done this. It has tried to address the many concerns and points of opposition that were made at the select committee, but in essence I do not think it has done so. Clause 3(1) states that the purpose of the Act is to establish a court, and \u201Cto recognise that New Zealand is an independent nation with its own history and traditions\u201D. Honestly, that is like telling people how to suck eggs. If that is not what a court should be about, then we are in a sorry state of affairs if we have to spell it out in legislation. New Zealand is an independent nation. No matter if we carried on with the Privy Council for the rest of our days, we are an independent nation, in any event. It is not the location of our final court of appeal that makes us an independent sovereign nation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfed9700c69e49c0b8b1ea7c149c6847\u0022\u003EHon Taito Phillip Field\u003C/span\u003E: And the umbilical cord has to be cut sometime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cef2c842a9f14ad28a122d20c7f94c85\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: The member is probably right. But it should certainly not be against the wishes of the majority of the New Zealand public. No matter how much the Government might say it has a mandate to do this, it runs a minority Government. The Greens, who are supporting the Government, are not even united. I know that. There are members in the Green Party who are not happy about having to do a deal so that Nandor Tanczos can get his Clean Slate Bill through, and wipe any offences relating to the smoking of pot that he or his friends might have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThat is the kind of deal-making that goes on here. A bill that the majority of New Zealanders have no time for will now be rammed through without a mandate, thanks to three extra votes from the Greens, whose word cannot really be taken seriously\u2014particularly when we get someone like Nandor Tanczos, who at the beginning of the session said: \u201CI will wait to see what M\u0101ori say about this.\u201D He did not hear them, because 95 percent of the submissions M\u0101ori made are opposed to the bill, but he is still supporting it anyway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EClause 3(1)(a)(ii) states that the purpose is: \u201Cto enable important legal matters, including legal matters relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, to be resolved\u201D. That does not satisfy M\u0101ori objection\u2014not at all. No doubt it was put in to satisfy Nandor Tanczos. We get a situation whereby a little party somehow exerts its weight far above what it should. If Nandor Tanczos thinks that clause 3(1)(a)(ii)\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca306da520864929befa001a97c3a8b1\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I think it is important that members\u2019 names be pronounced correctly. \u201CNandor\u201D is pronounced with the vowel sound of the \u201Ca\u201D in M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022611a4d6ba74d4e41a22658f1c56fa085\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for drawing that to the member\u2019s attention. Some people have difficulties with pronunciation\u2014I am sure all of us do at certain times\u2014but I would expect that members would do their best to pronounce names correctly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022581b01da6614498e93c22aa4281073a8\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Chairperson, I ask how I should pronounce the member\u2019s name please, as my name is mispronounced so much of the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf921d8d421a47ec951766bd0efe0016\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: It has a M\u0101ori \u201Ca\u201D pronunciation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e7e1d68dae4f2b83a072bf4a43e07f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. Will the member please continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa9909f802a24ad1ad25d1d65454ed05\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: I did not realise that Nandor was a M\u0101ori name, or that I have to pronounce it with a M\u0101ori vowel. I look forward to the person who raised the point of order pronouncing my name correctly, if he would. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIn any event, if the Government thinks that clause 3(1)(a)(ii) satisfies M\u0101ori objections, it is wrong. I ask Nandor Tanczos to think again and get it into his head that he does not represent a M\u0101ori point of view, no matter how much he might think that he wants to, or that he can. The bill in no way satisfies the objections of M\u0101ori. Their major objection is that this is being done without proper dialogue on the status of the treaty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6ce99051d8e4e1a98684cbf50d877f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6ce99051d8e4e1a98684cbf50d877f1\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future will support the Government\u2019s proposed amendments because we think they improve the bill, particularly regarding the change of date of instigation. Nevertheless, we believe that to enact the Supreme Court Bill on 1 January 2004 would be premature, and that the commencement date of 1 July 2004 is also premature. It would be preferable if the enacting of the bill were put back for 5 years, because, firstly, it is not needed yet, and, secondly, it is not wanted yet. It is not needed, because at this point in time the Privy Council is more than adequate in meeting New Zealand\u2019s need for a second-tier court of appeal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI accept that the new court would bring some advantages, particularly in giving access to a greater number of cases. However, the cases that it would be able to hear\u2014in particular, Family Court, Environment Court, and Employment Court cases\u2014would be appeals at a third-tier level, and the number of appeals that come through would likely be rare, and therefore very few cases would be affected and obtain that advantage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EAgainst that is the fact that we would lose, with the Privy Council, a quality of judiciary that has been accepted right across the Parliament as being of high quality. We would engage in a huge cost that we do not incur with the Privy Council, and, most important, we would be making a move that does not have the confidence of the community. I do not think we need to make this change yet. I said in my second reading speech that I predicted we would probably need to make the change within 5 to 10 years\u2014and probably at the lower end of that\u2014but at the moment the Privy Council is very adequate for New Zealand\u2019s needs. We do not need to change, and to start the bill on 1 January 2004 is premature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe bill is also not wanted, and this is perhaps the more important point. The business, legal, and M\u0101ori communities clearly do not want this bill. A substantial percentage of New Zealanders do not want this bill. The select committee process, which involved a wide range of New Zealanders, made it clear the bill was not wanted. There was overwhelming quantitative and qualitative opposition to the bill. I believe that the court will probably be needed by 2008. Events in the UK will have progressed and we will probably need it then. But we do not need it now. New Zealanders will by then, I hope, be ready for it, providing they see it as their decision and have come to that conclusion without feeling that it is being dictated to them by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EQuestions have been raised as to whether there should be a referendum. United Future did not initially support the proposal that there ought to be a referendum on the matter. In the commentary on the bill, our comments show quite clearly that we opposed the idea of having a referendum, because we considered it an inappropriate and unnecessary process, for the reasons that those opposed to the referendum enunciated. We thought it was unnecessarily expensive to undertake a public referendum prior to reforming the court structure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EHowever, in the absence of cross-party support in the Parliament, in the absence of public support during the select committee process, in the absence of United Future being able to negotiate amendments that would sufficiently satisfy and provide answers to the prime concerns of key sectors of the public, and given the prospect of a mere 63 votes being cast in support of the bill, a referendum is the only remaining way of providing the necessary buy-in by the public to justify this bill being passed. United Future will therefore support the Supplementary Order Paper being proposed by ACT. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the purpose clause, there was concern among objectors as to judicial activism. United Future supported the Hodder formulations, and with some amendment, we proposed, as revealed in the commentary to the bill, that they be adopted in a modified form. I note too that ACT\u2019s amendments by and large follow that. Therefore, we will also be supporting the amendment in the Supplementary Order Paper proposed by ACT that the purpose clause and the addition to the purpose clause be put into the bill. The judiciary does need to be conscious of its place. There has been some concern, in particular with the Lesa case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u00229b1446d18f034307bdb870df12fc6d68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b1446d18f034307bdb870df12fc6d68\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220db08b1144124972a081e5c5dea458e3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: No. I call the honourable member Pita Paraone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022905b8bedb4914c9c9607dd5bcfdd2d2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905b8bedb4914c9c9607dd5bcfdd2d2b\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Tena koe, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f05cd67ef2e94e2fa1608e314f03f6bf\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0a12fbab49f4c9aa2a410fef4a4398a\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: I presume that you asked \u201CWho?\u201D because you cannot pronounce my name. Never mind.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b05d0369538498ab31566b7d8f8db57\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not use the word \u201Cyou\u201D, because that is referring to the Chair. He must use \u201Cthe member\u201D, \u201Cthe Minister\u201D, or speak in the third person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcfa5dc15f03423680a6ceb8af8d7190\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: I stand corrected. New Zealand First will continue to oppose this bill. I want to take a call on clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, in Part 1. Clause 3(1)(a) provides that the purpose is \u201Cto establish within New Zealand a new court of final appeal comprising New Zealand judges\u2014\u201D, and then it outlines the reasons in subparagraphs (i) and (ii). With regard to the wording, particularly in clause 3(1)(a)(ii), which states: \u201Cto enable important legal matters, including legal matters relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, to be resolved with an understanding of New Zealand conditions, history, and traditions;\u201D, I suggest that at this precise moment in time, New Zealanders do not have a clear understanding of the Treaty of Waitangi. Those past cases that have already been referred to the Privy Council in relation to issues affecting the treaty have been better understood, and as a consequence better dealt with, by those from overseas. I am talking about those cases referred to the Privy Council in terms of the fisheries and broadcasting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI suggest that perhaps the reason for the haste with which this bill has been introduced and processed through this Parliament is anticipation of the likely cases that could be referred to the Privy Council to deal with the foreshore and seabed. Perhaps there is a fear on the part of the Government that the people who sit on the Privy Council will have a better understanding of this issue, and may come down with findings that oppose the views of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI also want to ask the M\u0101ori members in Government what, in their view, they have done to represent their people in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c444efec2f34b7b84341f8849f76d59\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55abeb788cd42eea0783dd61cd7ab1d\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: The fact that we are now debating this bill in the Committee stage can say only one thing, and that, as my learned colleague from this side has said, is nothing. This is a betrayal of the highest order, not only by those M\u0101ori members, but also by this Government, because the majority of New Zealanders, including M\u0101ori, oppose this bill. In fact, we must question where the concept of democracy got lost on the way with regard to this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EGiven the narrow margin by which this bill was scraped through, should not a halt be called until such time as adequate debate and consultation have been undertaken? The lack of support surely indicates that this issue needs further policy analysis\u2014or is this Government afraid of what the New Zealand First, ACT, and National petition currently doing the rounds is likely to produce for the Government? This Government passed the Prostitution Reform Act by one vote. A similar situation is about to happen here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ea59b55696f48ff8d35e5317ed8cc92\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Stop telling porkies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82f9add37ff46f280976cb5a949c83b\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, whatever the difference was, it was very close, even if we did have one member from the Government side of the House give new meaning to objection by abstaining. What does that tell us about this Government? It tells us that it has its own agenda, which will persist in the face of widespread public opposition and the glaring lack of a mandate from all New Zealanders. Constitutional changes should be made only with the consent of the people; but then, to this Government, what is the consent of the people? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ESeventy-five percent of those who appeared before the Justice and Electoral Committee opposed the bill. The independence of the judiciary and its political neutrality should be inviolable in this country. The longstanding links with the Privy Council and the legal expertise that it possesses should not be severed on a political whim.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u002271dd2199f19143a3b5d71620cb3cf040\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271dd2199f19143a3b5d71620cb3cf040\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0da90d96b7e48ae8ae2c93e029896ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0da90d96b7e48ae8ae2c93e029896ba\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E The first point I would like to make, Mr Chairperson\u2014and you will know these provisions well\u2014is that on page 94 of the current Standing Orders it is made wholly clear that in debates of this type, each member seeking a call has the possibility of making not more than four speeches. I am referring to the third box on page 94. That is why I was so disappointed in someone whom I admire greatly, the Hon Taito Phillip Field, moving a closure motion after only three speeches had been given on this part. He may well have been directed to do that by his senior whip, but the follow-through from Georgina Beyer was similarly to seek to close down the debate. I think it is a matter of considerable sadness, in the context of Part 1, that a member whom I understand may well be a M\u0101ori member\u2014Georgina Beyer\u2014is not prepared to have the issues that arise in this part fully debated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the context of Part 1, we are being treated to an outrage. Why do I say that? It is because this morning we had a Supplementary Order Paper from the Attorney-General that, as others have commented, runs to eight pages, and there are also multiple amendments from other members. In addition, I would like to flag, and have the opportunity to speak to, several of the amendments I have put up in connection with Part 1. Two of the amendments are of particular significance. The first relates to clause 17 and the second, similarly related, adds a subclause to that clause. I hope there will be the opportunity to talk on those issues, because in this call I would like to concentrate just on the merits of this part\u2014[Interruption]\u2014without, I say to Mr Hide, his necessary and, I am sure, ever helpful interjection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EFirst, if we think that the record of the Court of Appeal in recent times has been flash, then we should rapidly disabuse ourselves of that notion, because in a sequential review of 10 appeals that went from the Court of Appeal to the Privy Council in a period of about 14 months, no fewer than seven\u201470 percent\u2014of those cases were reversed. That is not a good record. If we look at some of those Court of Appeal decisions, we will see that one of the standout decisions of the Privy Council related to the Taito case. As others have commented, the first of 1,500 convicted criminals denied a right to appeal by systemic failure in the Court of Appeal will have his case heard later this month. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe key provision in Part 1 establishes the Supreme Court. In the short time available, and against the background of seeking\u2014and, I hope, securing\u2014further calls on this important legislation, I would like to summarise very briefly what National\u2019s position is in respect of Part 1. With the establishment of this court, we are seeing the abandonment of a court of excellence. The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which is recognised as a court of excellence throughout the Commonwealth and has heard thousands of appeals\u2014in the context of New Zealand, the first appeals are from about 1851\u2014is to be with us no longer. All the intellect at that court and all the sustained knowledge built up over years of litigants appearing before that court and arguing cases in a New Zealand context and with a New Zealand flavour will be lost\u2014for what reason? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022 data-id=\u00222fe3c5b5b3ad422d97f494e7f20c82d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222fe3c5b5b3ad422d97f494e7f20c82d7\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (NZ Labour\u2014Christchurch Central):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00223b0948144497490b8bfa3b4318b8a643\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b0948144497490b8bfa3b4318b8a643\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. This is a two-part bill with schedules. There are 42 clauses in the part we are dealing with at the moment. I am anxious to get a bit of an indication from you before I speak\u2014and I suspect others may also need it\u2014as to whether you would be inclined to allow more than one speech. I know that the Standing Orders encourage members to think that they can have up to four and that, commonly, the debate on the commencement provisions and the early phase may be very short, but I want to draw to your attention\u2014and despite what Mr Worth said, it is not a bill with which you have been previously involved\u2014that the whole substance of the bill is in this part. It does govern the way in which I would address\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4648db06fba4c6380ac13b3666f7e96\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have the member\u2019s point of order. As the presiding officer, I am the sole judge of relevancy as to whether I take the closure. I am considering the issue at the present stage, but I have not yet been convinced that there needs to be a closure motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdd456f836a641308d36f35ec06d38a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdd456f836a641308d36f35ec06d38a4\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak to the first two of my three substantive amendments to Part 1. The first proposes that the commencement involve a referendum. In my opinion, a referendum is not the most desirable way in which to achieve a constitutional change of this type. A referendum necessarily would involve debate about the comparative or relative merits of our court and what the overseas judges can do. I know there are many judges who, quite properly, are anguished about the damage that may occur to the reputation of the judiciary as we go through the next few months. A referendum is constitutionally a very appropriate way for a country with a Parliament that has only one Chamber and no written constitution to establish a change of this magnitude. It should be in the hands of the people and require their endorsement. I am, nevertheless, sensitive to those who think that it is an unhappy necessity. But I am now persuaded by the passage of this legislation and by the haste with which we are dealing with it that it is absolutely essential that the commencement require the endorsement of New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill is treating our highest court and the tenure of the judges of that court as potential playthings of a minority ruling party. There may be no one in this House who would think it possible or likely that that precedent could be misused lightly. I believe there is no doubt at all that, at some stage in the future, what we are doing here tonight, and will be doing over the next week or so, will be cited as evidence that it is possible to tamper with the courts when it is convenient for a ruling party. I am sorry that the Greens are not supporting us\u2014in particular, Rod Donald, who makes such a play of the constitution being the property of more than the generation currently exercising its powers. I am sorry that that is a matter where we will possibly\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0edb46211d241769a1ea54668ed02bb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member may not refer to the absence of members from the Chamber. That is a longstanding convention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6eb44f599b44db4a50f1019da262c17\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. I meant that they are not supporting us. There are Green members present, and they are not supporting us. ACT\u2019s proposed commencement clause, which I am pleased to hear that United Future will support and which I know the National Party and New Zealand First will support, is very simple. It enables all the detail to be before the people. It is all worked out: the bill is passed by the House but comes into force only when it has been endorsed by New Zealanders in a referendum. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have a suspicion that many New Zealanders see this in the same crude nationalistic terms as the Attorney-General does. This Clark-Wilson Government is contemptuous of people and of their ability to understand, but the question of whether a court that is utterly independent of New Zealand political pressure and whose appointees are right outside the reach of any kind of caucus calculation is replaced with a court that is subject to the main constitutional problem for any country\u2014who watches the watchers\u2014is simple for people to understand. If they choose at the end of the referendum process to vote for it, the court will have been validated. The Supreme Court will have a mandate that the House cannot give. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe House is not giving a mandate to the Supreme Court but, by the squalid process of ramming the bill through now, is doing the very opposite. There will be no mandate. The new court will have to earn it painfully over many years of, probably, hostile scrutiny, because it will set off with people being suspicious about the motives for setting it up and concerned about its quality. Instead of being a celebration of nationalism as it was in Australia and Canada, it will start under the sort of scrutiny that may mean that it fails\u2014and New Zealanders will lose confidence in yet another of their institutions. I urge that the Committee, in the interests of the new court, vote for a referendum process that will enable the court to be established properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002254dcb278603044528afa1b882d65f952\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254dcb278603044528afa1b882d65f952\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (NZ Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u002272450a186c034e9cb5087ab60b4bba52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272450a186c034e9cb5087ab60b4bba52\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (NZ National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I make a contribution on Part 1 of the Supreme Court Bill. I was on the Justice and Electoral Committee when the bill first came before that committee, and at that time I expressed, along with my colleagues on the committee, many of the concerns that have been raised by my colleagues and by members on this side of the Chamber during the course of this debate. In fact, many of those concerns have not been addressed at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI reflect on what this bill will mean for the legal community and those seeking to have their cases heard at a high level by way of appeal, and, more particularly, on what it says about the Government\u2019s basic attitude towards the people of New Zealand. This Government\u2019s view is simply that the public are not smart enough to get it, and on that basis the Government believes that it will tell the public what is right for it and refuse to allow the people of New Zealand to have a say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI am sure that amongst Government members on the opposite side of the Chamber, there are those who are concerned that a constitutional change of this magnitude is about to occur. I am sure there are one or two over the other side of the Chamber who are in fact a bit embarrassed that they are about to deal with a significant constitutional aspect of the lie of the land in New Zealand\u2014by a very slim majority\u2014in what can only be described as a slippery way to make a substantial change to a basic constitutional right of all New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the Chamber\u2014New Zealand First, ACT and National\u2014share a very simple view. We actually believe that the public of New Zealand are smart enough to have a view on this. Funnily enough we believe that the people of New Zealand are quite capable of making an informed decision as to whether they wish to remove the right of appeal to the Privy Council. In fact we trust the people of New Zealand to get it right. On that basis, members on this side of the Chamber have been promoting a referendum on this issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIt is not an issue that this Government is turning down in isolation. Members will recall that when a member\u2019s bill in my name came before this House about 6 months ago, with an opportunity for the New Zealand public to have another look at the electoral system, the Government also threw that out. Parties who actually had a bit to lose from that referendum, like the ACT party because they are all list MPs, voted for that legislation. I remember it clearly. The reason that the ACT party voted with National on that issue is simply that members of those parties are not arrogant enough to believe that the New Zealand public are not smart enough to have a view on these issues, but believe that they are in fact able to make their minds up themselves. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThat is what that member always says. I wish she had another issue, because I am getting a bit sick of it after 4 years. It would be nice if she had another issue. [Interruption] The well-liked Government senior whip\u2014the only senior whip in the Parliament who chips in while people are speaking and does not have the decency to keep his mouth closed while other people are making a contribution\u2014should learn a bit from the behaviour of other senior whips in this House. That sort of behaviour does the Government no good in the eyes of the public. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EIn fact this Government actually thinks that the public of New Zealand are not smart enough to make these decisions. We say they are smart enough. We say that the Clark-Wilson Government is not able to make a fair assessment of what the New Zealand public want. In fact I would have to say that on the more than one occasion that this has occurred in the last 6 months, it is that type of arrogance when dealing with the public that this Government would be\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002262c7b5b1dd5c470e81a262e178477d83\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262c7b5b1dd5c470e81a262e178477d83\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227f0722742ca64284921b3f4f1a777816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f0722742ca64284921b3f4f1a777816\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Nandor Tanczos\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebde7094b6584970abf790f91f8c56d5\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Could I just point out that a point of order was taken on my pronunciation of that member\u2019s name, and it was pointed out to me that I was not pronouncing it correctly. You happen to be saying it in the very same manner that I did, and I would ask that you pronounce his name correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e191ad030004217aa94b3c01b906f6a\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. I call the honourable member Nandor Tanczos.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022b16d0c0f6743414fbc80828bf538cd71\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b16d0c0f6743414fbc80828bf538cd71\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E For the clarification of everybody in the Chamber, it is pronounced \u201CNarn-dor Tarnt-zosh\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI would like to begin my speech this evening by offering, and putting on record, an expression of sympathy from the Green MPs to Green staff member Roland Sapsford for the loss of his father, whose funeral was held earlier this evening. Members may have noticed that a number of Green MPs have been away from the Chamber this evening to attend that funeral, but we are now back in full strength. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI would like to address the questions raised by the amendment of Stephen Franks regarding the referendum. This is an issue of some interest to members of Parliament, and to a few people outside of Parliament. I think that first of all we need to address whether the bill is a major constitutional issue, and I think that that is debatable. I say that because, if we look back to 1996, the New Zealand Courts Structure Bill, which was introduced by the National Party, sought to remove\u2014not to replace, as this bill does\u2014the right of appeal to the Privy Council. That bill was therefore a significantly more important constitutional move than this one, and it did not contain provision for a referendum. The Supreme Court Bill, in contrast, replaces the Privy Council with a Supreme Court that will fulfil the same function in a different forum, and, arguably, more effectively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe have to ask what kinds of things are appropriate to have referenda on, because, contrary to some members\u2019 opinions, we do not have a convention in this country that major constitutional changes should be done by referenda. The history of the use of referenda in this country is extremely patchy. They were first used in 1919, and there have been only 10 Government-initiated referenda in all the time since then. Three of them were on alcohol, one on gambling, one on the military draft, two on the length of the term of Parliament, two on MMP, and one on superannuation. In contrast, the most significant constitutional issues this Parliament has faced, such as the adoption of the Statute of Westminster, the abolition of the Legislative Council, the adoption of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, the establishment of the Court of Appeal, and the privatisation programmes rammed through this House, were not done by referenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELet us bear in mind that no country in the world, including Canada, Australia, Singapore, India, Hong Kong, and a whole host of others, has used a referendum to end appeals to the Privy Council. In practice, we do not have in this country a convention that means significant constitutional issues should be decided by referenda. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIf anything, we tend to use referenda for minor issues in this country, and if our country is to adopt a principle that says major constitutional issues should be so decided\u2014and that is something I would be supportive of\u2014we need to establish some guidelines about how we determine what is a major constitutional issue of the kind that should be addressed by referenda. We have to have some criteria. Accusations that this bill is a major issue needing a referendum needs to be backed up by some criteria and evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt seems to me that, if we are to look at the question of what issues should be decided by referenda, we should look at things like whether the issue relates to the composition of Parliament, because referenda would then provide a safeguard against the ability of Parliament to act in order to change its own composition\u2014that safeguard being the people\u2019s will. Issues that are subject to the self-interest of parliamentarians, such as Parliament\u2019s re-elections, would be suitable for referenda. If there were evidence of widespread and general demand for referenda, such as we would have indicated to us through a citizens initiated referenda process, that would be a suitable indication. We might need to look at amending the process to be less onerous, but there is no such indication in this case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ELastly, if the balance of power between the executive, the legislature, and the judiciary is to be changed, a referendum would be indicated. I would argue that the Supreme Court Bill invokes none of those criteria. It may invoke others that have not been mentioned, but this Parliament would need to identify what those were if we were to make a credible argument. Let us bear in mind that the 1996 Royal Commission on the Electoral System was very cautious about the use of referenda. It said that they should, in general, be avoided, provided there is continued development of restraints on the power of Governments, such as through parliamentary select committees, the Ombudsman, the Official Information Act, and administrative review through the courts. Those comments were made before the advent of MMP, which provides further restraints upon the executive because of the need for minority Governments to fashion working majorities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESome say that the bill will pass with too slim a majority. I reject that view. The bill has the support of three parties in this Parliament. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7d06d2900f74bbcb2691cc76512e8ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7d06d2900f74bbcb2691cc76512e8ef\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E The public deserve an explanation. Like myself, they might be a bit confused by the Green member who has just sat down. He started to tell us that we should respect convention\u2014if something has not been done in Parliament before, then we should not even try to attempt it. It is incredible to think that the Greens actually respect tradition and convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E Let me come back to this bill and, interestingly, to its purpose. Clause 3 states: \u201C(1) The purpose of this Act is\u2014(a) to establish within New Zealand a new court of final appeal comprising New Zealand judges\u2014(i) to recognise that New Zealand is an independent nation with its own history and traditions;\u201D. At first glance, one may tend to agree with that, but when one reflects on it, one wonders why Prime Minister Clark consistently tells us that we have to do what the United Nations wants us to do, for example under section 59 on smoking\u2014because all the other countries have to repeal it, so do we. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E Whenever there is an issue, such as the labour laws, etc., we are told what to do by this very flexible Prime Minister, Helen Clark, who seems to be able to change her argument according to the issue she is championing. In this case, it is said that New Zealand is an independent nation with its own history and traditions, so therefore we must have our final court of appeal, the Supreme Court. Why is it that when we come to other issues we say we must do whatever international rules or regulations stipulate? How can we consistently follow the argument of this Labour Government, when one day it says we are obliged to do what the international community believes we should do, and the next day says: \u201CHey, we\u2019re an independent nation with our own history and tradition, so we should not continue this linkage with a very superior Privy Council in Britain.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe second reason, we are told under clause 3(1)(a)(ii), that we should have a Supreme Court is \u201Cto enable important legal matters, including legal matters relating to the Treaty of Waitangi, to be resolved with an understanding of New Zealand conditions, history, and traditions;\u201D. One would think that a Government that put such a provision in the purpose clause of a bill would actually respect the treaty partner\u2019s\u2014the M\u0101ori community\u2019s\u2014opinion on that. I was told by my very learned and well-respected colleague Georgina te Heuheu that the majority of the M\u0101ori population was not consulted and did not agree. In fact, most M\u0101ori\u2014the treaty partner\u2014who turned up to the Justice and Electoral Committee actually said that they do not believe we should cut our link with the Privy Council. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe Minister should at least have the decency to stand and take a call to explain to us why it is that the purpose clause in this bill does not seem to equate to our actual observations. I was surprised earlier that my parliamentary colleague Taito Phillip Field stood up and sought to shut down the debate, even though we appreciate that Labour members always do what they are told. He and I sat on the same select committee in respect of the Western Samoan citizenship petition, where he kept telling the committee and the submissioners that the Privy Council had made such a great ruling, and he tried to persuade us, and Parliament, to listen to the wisdom of that court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc01970b88e44edfb757feeb6d944bca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc01970b88e44edfb757feeb6d944bca\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (NZ Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc2c6b95d5114d9e8d37ba6408aaa934\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc2c6b95d5114d9e8d37ba6408aaa934\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in particular to clause 3 in Part 1. It sets out the purpose of the bill, which, according to the minority Labour Government, is to improve access to justice. Well, that shows how little the minority Labour Party knows about access to justice and about the effect this legislation will have on access to justice for New Zealand companies. One of the things that happens in commercial law is that a clause is included in contracts between New Zealand companies and overseas companies, stating: \u201CThe law of the contract shall be the law of ...\u201D, and the name of the country is put in. That country\u2019s law governs the way that the contract is administered in legal situations if things go wrong. Until now it has been easy for that country to be New Zealand, because people from countries such as France, Brazil, or outer Mongolia knew that our law would ultimately, if necessary, be determined by the Privy Council\u2014a well-known body that is based on British principles of common law and clearly established principles of statutory interpretation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen this bill is passed, the country\u2019s law stated in a contract will no longer be the law of New Zealand for the vast majority of existing contracts that refer to the law of New Zealand; it will, in fact, be the law of the other country. That country may be the Netherlands. If one is dealing with Philips, then Philips will make sure that the law will be the law of the Netherlands, and, if necessary, of the European Union. If one is dealing with Australia, say, in mining cases, the law will be as determined by the High Court of Australia. If one is dealing with any other country, such as Russia or the United States\u2014and in the United States it will inevitably be the state of New York\u2014that country or state will govern the law of the contract. So New Zealanders will cease to have the access to justice that they currently have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill will reduce access to justice for New Zealand companies. It is acknowledged that commercial organisations are one of the groups that use the Privy Council. I would think that roughly 50 percent of the appeals to the Privy Council have been made by commercial bodies. Those cases will no longer go to the Privy Council, obviously. They will not go to the Supreme Court, either. Our business dealings will be determined by states such as New York, by the High Court of Australia, and, funnily enough, by the House of Lords. They will determine New Zealand contracts\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daf88f16d4f04164b028ff7a06130137\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Supreme Court of Singapore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b4d2b22040d4bc3a59592285e39e58f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and the Supreme Court of Singapore\u2014for that type of case. We will lose access to justice. Our lawyers, of course, will be out of work, unless they start working on trans-Tasman ways of doing things. We will be giving away work to overseas companies, and if we think those cases will still be determined by the Supreme Court of New Zealand, we have another think coming. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill represents the dumbing-down of the New Zealand judiciary. As one of the submissions stated, this legislation will create a backwater for the New Zealand judicial system in the South Pacific. No one will take any notice of our decisions, and we will be given the respect we deserve for having a court that is totally untried\u2014a court whose track record has been one of being constantly overturned in the Privy Council on some fairly obvious decisions. [Interruption] Ms Chadwick can make as much noise as she likes. She is obviously ignorant of the situation, and does not give two hoots about New Zealand becoming a backwater in the South Pacific. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen Australia and Canada did away with the Privy Council, they already had a two-tier system. They had the equivalent of our Court of Appeal, and they had a higher court, which became their final court of appeal. We do not have that system in New Zealand. That is the difference between us and Australia, with its High Court of Australia, and between us and Canada, with its Supreme Court. We do not have that situation in New Zealand; we have only one Court of Appeal. That is the difference between the way Canada and Australia did it, and the way New Zealand is doing it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am disappointed that none of the seven M\u0101ori Labour members of Parliament has spoken. I wonder whether they are \u201CBashful\u201D or \u201CHappy\u201D, or whether they are \u201CSneezy\u201D, \u201CSleepy\u201D, \u201CGrumpy\u201D, \u201CDopey\u201D, or \u201CDoc\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00221d65ffd67f044f67a863288f63e3e89c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221d65ffd67f044f67a863288f63e3e89c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223469b955c65c4f32881a8a306a9b051b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000681\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000682\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 2 and substitute the following clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000683\u0022\u003E2\tCommencement\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000684\u0022\u003E(1)\tExcept as provided in subsection (2), this Act comes into force after \u2013\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000685\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe Chief Electoral Officer has declared the final result of the referendum to be held before or no later than the next general election which asks the question: \u201CShould our right of final appeal to the Privy Council be abolished?\u201D; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000686\u0022\u003E(b)\ta 66 percent majority of those voting in the referendum answers \u201CYes\u201D to the question.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000687\u0022\u003E(2)\tSubsection (1) comes into force on the day after the date on which this Act receives the Royal assent.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022332f390d656b4edf88c2fc15045b8f4a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000688\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000689\u0022\u003Eto omit all the words after the words \u201Cinto force on\u201D and substitute the words \u201C1 July 2006\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022240ae7de642142a7aaf94b5a46241758\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000690\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000691\u0022\u003Eto omit all the words after the words \u201Cinto force on\u201D and substitute the words \u201C1 July 2007\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225f658a085a004ba4acc174601f9e29d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000692\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000693\u0022\u003Eto omit all the words after the words \u201Cinto force on\u201D and substitute the words \u201Cfollowing endorsement of this Bill by a majority vote in a public referendum\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b111bb3797e64a8b8607887992804a9b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000694\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to clause 3(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000695\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (a) all the words after the words \u201Ca new court of final appeal\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b76819ba31664a69a62449e95408a0ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000696\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 3(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000697\u0022\u003Eto omit from paragraph (c) the word \u201Cend\u201D and substitute the word \u201Cdeny\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228cda59be0d284bd3b86823ec222c528a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000698\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000699\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000700\u0022\u003E(1A) \tto deny New Zealanders right of access to one of the most esteemed judicial authorities in the world.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ff66b402ab2d433f94c43e05ac4f7c30\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000701\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 3 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000702\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000703\u0022\u003E(1AA) \tto allow for a politically appointed highest court in this country.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ed863283f8a945cb86056278a892a5ab\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000704\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to clause 3(2) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000705\u0022\u003Eto omit the word \u201CNothing\u201D and substitute the word \u201CEverything\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022751f191bdcbd4937a0cf1b66d5727a2c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000706\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to insert the following new clause 3A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000707\u0022\u003E3A\tPrinciples \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000708\u0022\u003EThe new court of final appeal must:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000709\u0022\u003E(1)\tRule of Law reinforce the rule of law in New Zealand, and in particular the principle that, to the greatest extent possible, the laws of New Zealand should be known or accessible in advance to enable all persons required to comply with such laws to shape their conduct accordingly and to enable the courts of New Zealand to apply such laws in respect of any matter before them;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000710\u0022\u003E(2)\tSeparation of Powers affirm the principle that powers of legislation, adjudication and administration should be held by the separate branches of government, and that the role of the judiciary should be to decide the cases before it in accordance with the established and accessible laws of New Zealand;\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000711\u0022\u003E(3)\tParliamentary Sovereignty respect the principle that substantial issues of public policy in New Zealand and the establishment of new principles to govern the duties of private persons should be decided by the outcomes of the Parliamentary process and not by judicial legislation.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222552d1ef8bd64c9a8680ad7c25eada89\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 51\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000712\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to insert the following new clause 6A be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000713\u0022\u003E6A\tThe Supreme Court shall only be established with the majority of 75 percent of the House of Representatives.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002236bf2ea4f4134ec2b2000a7252dba4a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000714\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to clause 15(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000715\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b), after the word \u201Cany\u201D, the word \u201Crelevant\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002280700100924e405a9368ead3d5f3c9a4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000716\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to clause 16(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000717\u0022\u003Eto add the words \u201Cat the first available opportunity\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d561c61caf149418e310d1d3dbcaa21\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000718\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to clause 17(1) be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000719\u0022\u003Eto omit paragraph (b) and substitute the following:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000720\u0022\u003E(b)\t5 other judges, appointed by the Governor General as Judges of the Supreme Court.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e9bd900c26f465db2348c5af85f1a8e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000721\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to clause 17(1) be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000722\u0022\u003Eto insert in paragraph (b), after the words \u201CGovernor-General\u201D, the words \u201Con the resolution of the House of Representatives\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220df3828903fa45a3833c8124714e9363\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000723\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Richard Worth to clause 17 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000724\u0022\u003Eto add the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000725\u0022\u003E(3)\tNotwithstanding the provisions of section 23 of the Constitution Act in the event that the Supreme Court is disestablished the Judges of the Court must not continue in office and must not receive salary or other allowance from that date.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002204a6008cd6e6416fb065129eeee9144e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000726\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 151 in the name of the Hon Margaret Wilson to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00229ae08fa96bd84edbb11339a615f3a4c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ae08fa96bd84edbb11339a615f3a4c9\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. There seems to be a plan to put these amendments globally. There is nothing in the Standing Orders that strictly sanctions that course. I seek that the amendments be put separately, in the absence of a Speaker\u2019s ruling to the contrary. I stand subject to correction that there may be a Standing Order or a Speaker\u2019s ruling concerning that, but I do not think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00225a3318d9d8cf44278af070168780e613\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a3318d9d8cf44278af070168780e613\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I understand that it is up to members themselves as to whether that can happen. It is my understanding that the Minister has chosen to do it that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022022d0a8f86524c19a82f89e753815de3\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: The issue is what Speakers\u2019 rulings, the conventions of the House, or the Standing Orders state. I do not believe that the issue is covered by the Standing Orders. You have a better knowledge of that than I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00229988a09dee824ae1a61521995b2eaf30\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229988a09dee824ae1a61521995b2eaf30\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the honourable member to Standing Order 301, which states: \u201CThe member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in that member\u2019s name to a provision be put as one question. \u2026\u201D We will now put the question that the Minister\u2019s amendments as set out on Supplementary Order Paper 151 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6795f1ed6b747c698d31a10e35778e2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6795f1ed6b747c698d31a10e35778e2\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. With respect\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208a1ea7343e744678a789383c617b5af\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already ruled on that matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ed40c4267d4a23b5262999133887d2\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: I appreciate that, but is that what the Minister wants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d2a323467d142a58d1c628e5afbd99b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that is what the Minister wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022291a1c339ce942589eed76ebc596ff48\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Should we not inquire of her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a3708de8ab42c5abf0df1334a0b097\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister indicated that was what she wanted, and I will do that. Can I now have the vote?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 151 in the name of the Hon Margaret Wilson to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022011205cfef5f4e03b2b40ae15bc0352f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022011205cfef5f4e03b2b40ae15bc0352f\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The point of order arises from Standing Order 301, to which you have just referred members of the Committee. As you have correctly observed, it states: \u201CThe member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in that member\u2019s name to a provision be put as one question.\u201D But the second sentence states: \u201CAn amendment proposed by the member in charge of a bill is taken ahead of other amendments at the same place of the bill.\u201D That is an irregularity in the process that has been followed today. I seek that the irregularity be corrected by re-voting on the amendments to the relevant part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274122b813d7e42eb84ef248ca7af26db\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for drawing that to my attention, and say that the Minister\u2019s amendments are taken at the end in order that there is no confusion and that the amendments are not taken in the wrong order. That can happen if we have different amendments being put in by different members. So for the convenience of members, the Minister\u2019s amendments are put at the end. It has been the custom in this place for a considerable amount of time\u2014especially since I have been in the Chair, anyway\u2014that that occurs. I am now going to declare the vote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022d307f975f585484894fe4d7e4611e624\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d307f975f585484894fe4d7e4611e624\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It is all very well for you to say that that is done as a matter of convenience, but it is a clear breach of the second sentence of the Standing Order, and that is what I ask you to focus on. Matters of convenience are fine, but the rules of the House are another matter. Unless you suspend the Standing Orders, then I ask that we follow the regular processes of the Committee as recorded in the Standing Orders. Why is that unreasonable?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00228eae66454ab24352a98ffd145150edac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eae66454ab24352a98ffd145150edac\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E It is abundantly clear from practices in this Committee\u2014and I say, with respect, that I have been here longer than that member\u2014that Ministers\u2019 amendments are taken collectively at the end. The practice that we are seeing tonight is no different from what has been practised over the last 10 years, and the Chairperson tonight is complying with what we have witnessed for the last decade.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002241f38718e97740a4b24f9d8f87730063\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002241f38718e97740a4b24f9d8f87730063\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I want to query your ruling on this because I vividly recall that when we did the Gambling Bill, on which I had a number of amendments, the Minister\u2019s amendments came first. They actually ruled out a number of the amendments that I had. If we look at the point that my colleague Richard Worth has raised concerning that second sentence of Standing Order 301, we see it is very clear that an amendment proposed by the member in charge of a bill is taken ahead of other amendments at the same place in the bill. There is a precedent set in recent times\u2014when we passed the Gambling Bill in the last month\u2014whereby the Minister\u2019s amendments were taken first and a number of my own amendments were ruled out because of the Minister\u2019s amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f706022b2b1d4475a861ac9d0d8a16b3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I just tell the member that the Minister\u2019s amendments are taken at the end, and that has been the practice for a considerable amount of time. It enables other members\u2019 amendments to be taken and voted on. Where there is a conflict, members\u2019 amendments may be ruled out if it is the case that the Minister\u2019s amendments are taken first. That is the ruling, and I will now declare the vote\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u00225e810d7b38524bcaa698ac38e5915da3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e810d7b38524bcaa698ac38e5915da3\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I do not plan to waste the time of the Committee on this. I seek that the Speaker be recalled. Whatever the practice may be, I argue that it is contrary to the clear words of the Standing Order, and unless the Standing Orders are suspended that is the way it must be. I seek that the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00223c8a672441d3466e949c53fb6d2bd996\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223c8a672441d3466e949c53fb6d2bd996\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014NZ Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Members in this Committee are also aware that when the Chairman makes a ruling, that ruling is not to be relitigated. That is exactly what members are doing with regard to the very clear ruling you have made. The relitigation of issues happens too frequently, and that is exactly what is happening now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002235ca88ccdca0401d85791973b499a00f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235ca88ccdca0401d85791973b499a00f\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. The member who just spoke has no idea whether we are attempting to relitigate a ruling. I am looking at Standing Order 301, and I am now unsure exactly what it is that you wish to put to the vote, in any event. It does appear to me that the Standing Order requires that all amendments in that member\u2019s name to a provision be put as one question. Does that mean that all the amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 151 are about to be voted on, or is it all the amendments to a clause or all the amendments to a part? What is the provision to which the Standing Order relates? The provision will dictate, perhaps, whether some vote yes or no, given that all the amendments are to be taken as one question. It seems to me that the contemplation of this Standing Order appears to be that a member can elect to have all his or her questions put as one. I suspect that the drafter of this rule, or the practice when it happened, assumed that that was all the provisions in a Supplementary Order Paper, but I would be surprised if that, in fact, was the member\u2019s intention. I suggest that you clarify that before we proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cb039a803464720a245f796760b2ac3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We are dealing with a part by part motion, rather than a provision. The reason we do it this way is that other members can have their amendments voted on. Otherwise, their amendments could be ruled out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e79a09a9894d4649a5b824ea114f9f22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e79a09a9894d4649a5b824ea114f9f22\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I do not think there is much difficulty here, at all. The rule is, in fact, very clear: the Chairperson always puts the Minister\u2019s amendments first, as a block\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227837c9c1077d4ebb871cd96a90c2a466\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Tell that member to sit down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed55ef9f38cf469f9a1685e0f430de80\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: While a point of order is being taken there is to be silence. That is in Speaker\u2019s ruling 16/6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd28faa9401d4d8488822b431974ab20\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Field was standing up, which was a bit unhelpful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226022be2cf064402f8aadb10542894eff\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, I did not notice that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b92986c30f374f0abd659be2ae9b124e\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The rule is quite clear. The Chairperson puts the Minister\u2019s amendments as one when that is requested. You asked the Minister whether she wished to have them put as one. She indicated, as I saw her do on two occasions, that she did. That is fine. But they are to be put before any other amendments are put. In fact, that has always been the case. I, like many members, have had amendments ruled out of order because they have been inconsistent with the Minister\u2019s amendments. That has been a longstanding tradition. The fact that you have taken other amendments before the Minister\u2019s amendments does not mean that the Minister can then decide that she wants hers taken as one. That is what we contend. Mr Worth has asked that, rather than waste time\u2014we could waste time for another 20 minutes with points of order, if you want\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ff1866149dc4dd7a69e168e17ee27fa\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233ca03344574484db585c2ddab664a76\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: There are to be no interjections during points of order. It is highly disorderly, and I refer the member on my right to Standing Order 85/1. That is the member\u2019s first yellow card.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f185a86c8245fcb340429d95d9cd01\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: I think that because you have started to put some of the other amendments before the Minister\u2019s amendments, you are bound to put her amendments individually. Even though she wants them to be put as one, the Standing Order is quite clear. If you are getting advice that that is not right, that advice is totally contradictory to Standing Order 301. So rather than have endless points of order, all we are saying is that we should have the Speaker back to make a ruling on that, because I have not struck the situation before where you take individual members\u2019 amendments at the beginning, and then the Minister\u2019s amendments. All of us have put amendments in on bills. You, yourself, I think, as a member of the Opposition would have put amendments in and had them ruled out because they were inconsistent with the Minister\u2019s amendments as taken during the progress of a bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eafc909c38c40f0b94ef679178ef8d0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I just say that if we look at Standing Order 301 we see it is quite clear. It states: \u201CThe member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in that member\u2019s name to a provision be put as one question.\u201D The Minister has decided that that, in fact, is what she wants to do. In the time that I have been Assistant Speaker I have seen a number of times when the Minister\u2019s amendments have been put at the end. The reason is quite simple: by doing it that way, it means that other members have their amendments voted on. Otherwise, their amendments could be ruled out of order. There the matter rests, and I will now put the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab85f0fecb8a41e2aa1832189af5554d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab85f0fecb8a41e2aa1832189af5554d\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. You have quoted the first sentence of Standing Order 301\u2014and you are right\u2014\u201CThe member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in that member\u2019s name to a provision be put as one question.\u201D The second sentence states: \u201CAn amendment proposed by the member in charge of a bill is taken ahead of other amendments at the same place of the bill.\u201D That is the issue. My colleague Mr Worth has rightly asked for the Speaker to be recalled, because the voting order of the amendments is wrong. What we are contending is quite simple. If the Minister wants the amendments to be taken as one, that is fine and should be done upfront. But once you start to take other amendments, then you cannot take the Minister\u2019s amendments as one. If that were the case, and if that is the advice you are now getting, then it was wrong that, in the Gambling Bill we just debated, for example, our amendments were ruled out of order because the Minister\u2019s amendments were taken as one, upfront. If the Minister decides to take his or her amendments as one question, the question has to be taken either at the end or at the beginning. Standing Order 301 is quite clear. It has to be done at the beginning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWe are seeking clarification on that point. Otherwise\u2014let me put it this way\u2014we will always argue for an individual\u2019s amendments to be taken before the Minister\u2019s, and, therefore, no amendment would be ruled out of order and we would always have votes rather than amendments ruled out as being inconsistent with the bill. That is why the Standing Order is worded like that. We cannot just pick and choose, depending on the bill. I also emphasise\u2014[Interruption] The junior Government whip can yell out all she likes. That is fine for her, it seems, during a point of order, but I do not think that it is acceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EMy other point is that you have been asked for the Speaker to be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdc3a09446874ed1aba191b60bc5370d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdc3a09446874ed1aba191b60bc5370d\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. My understanding is that once we commence voting you cannot start allowing Opposition members, or any member, to call points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00227859b7e900ca44b49902ca18d8232566\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227859b7e900ca44b49902ca18d8232566\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is about the voting; the voting is the thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3a9d73bd04d46a58ca50c44f0f2a3a0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3a9d73bd04d46a58ca50c44f0f2a3a0\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022185ff5e79c154903891eb8802a67de84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022185ff5e79c154903891eb8802a67de84\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I want a ruling on my point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022456ea83fc4544877b45a600e37c923a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022456ea83fc4544877b45a600e37c923a7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I gave a ruling on the point of order. This is about the voting. That is why we are in this situation now\u2014because it is about the voting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00224cd28747e5b342b5b79a0af5679dd2a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cd28747e5b342b5b79a0af5679dd2a6\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I wonder whether some assistance might be derived by looking at the strict meaning of the words in the first sentence. If you were to rule, or if we were to get a ruling, on what is meant by the word \u201Cprovision\u201D, it may help. If \u201Cprovision\u201D is the same as \u201Cclause\u201D, then the outcome for which Mr Sowry is arguing would happen anyway. If, instead, \u201Cprovision\u201D in that line means \u201Cpart\u201D, then we still have the difficulty Mr Sowry raises. I suggest that you take it in that order\u2014that we need to look first at \u201Cprovision\u201D. I believe that the purpose of the rule probably was to have it taken provision by provision, and the member could elect to have everything dealt with within a clause. Otherwise, if a member whose amendments were taken as one question went first, the outcome would be that he or she could then knock out a whole range of potentially valid amendments later. However, if the bill is dealt with provision by provision, that will not happen within a part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7a5d47c75ca43038990a1e03cc0eeb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7a5d47c75ca43038990a1e03cc0eeb1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I tell members that if amendments occur in the same place, then the Minister has preference. We are doing these amendments at the end for that very reason. They have been done at the end before. By doing it this way, it means that other members\u2019 amendments are voted on. Otherwise, those amendments could be ruled out. To me, it is clear and simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dcd7659c670142c49805dc369161da36\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 71\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022884bf75b74cc458b825d77d9e95c6938\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022884bf75b74cc458b825d77d9e95c6938\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I note that you have rushed ahead and done what you have just done, but my point of order is unresolved. My point of order was that the Speaker be recalled to rule on the view you have taken of Standing Order 301. You have not dealt with that point of order. Instead, you have chosen\u2014I would say wrongly, with respect\u2014to declare the result of the vote. I am seeking that my point of order be resolved and that the Speaker be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002267fd434789d34bb98cf73b2e339cdb88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267fd434789d34bb98cf73b2e339cdb88\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is free to move that at any time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022f825397a42bf43a2b0144c711ce9ea58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f825397a42bf43a2b0144c711ce9ea58\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I have. I have done it on several occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb141a1ac54c46e3912ff347ee360f96\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Speaker be recalled. The Ayes have it. The Speaker will be recalled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022910a6f50173346cfbc0a579901fb83ab\u0022\u003EHouse resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002267ad66e22f7d4ee7ac0f4270953d0eeb\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd2a9d99f8504830905a5f75fe3c9d7f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd2a9d99f8504830905a5f75fe3c9d7f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, I have been challenged on my understanding of Standing Order 301, \u201CAmendments of member in charge\u201D, which states: \u201CThe member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in that member\u2019s name to a provision be put as one question.\u201D I pointed out that the Minister has the right to place the amendments where he or she chooses to do so, and that has been the custom for some considerable time. By doing it that way, it means other members can have their amendments voted on. Otherwise, those amendments in turn could be ruled out of order. That has not been accepted, and you have been recalled to give a Speaker\u2019s ruling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022bd17bee7c3724020ac96637bf83e7699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bd17bee7c3724020ac96637bf83e7699\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I suggest that the issue arises around the somewhat unusual wording of Standing Order 301. We are debating Part 1 and a series of members\u2019 amendments have been put to the vote. The issue then arose as to whether the amendments of the Minister in charge of the bill would be put as one question. That is clearly contemplated by the first sentence of Standing Order 301. But it is more complicated than that. I am saying, with respect, that the Chairperson is not prepared to give meaning to the second sentence: \u201CAn amendment proposed by the member in charge of a bill is taken ahead of other amendments at the same place of the bill.\u201D I suggest that there has been a clear breach of the second sentence, and that there are two possibilities for action. Possibility No. 1 is to suspend the Standing Orders in the face of that breach. Possibility No. 2, which is the possibility preferred by National, is that the amendments be revoted on in strict accordance with the second sentence of the Standing Order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00220f09ccee91ac4f689b838ea40e629ccf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f09ccee91ac4f689b838ea40e629ccf\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E The second element is the meaning of the word \u201Cprovision\u201D as it appears in Standing Order 301, which allows the member to elect to have all amendments relating to a provision to be put as one. If \u201Cprovision\u201D in that sentence is to be read as \u201Cpart\u201D, then all the member\u2019s amendments may be put at the beginning, and subsequent ones will perhaps be ruled out. If it just means \u201Cclause\u201D, then the interpretation contended by the National Opposition will apply in any event, or there will be assistance for it. When the vote was called, it is not entirely clear that that was stated. I do not recall the exact words the Chair referred to. It could be that they were to all the amendments on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper\u2014in which case \u201Cprovision\u201D covers more than the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00220be49040d60842ba8e969192b843be67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220be49040d60842ba8e969192b843be67\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I want to proceed further with Mr Worth\u2019s point of order. I refer to the second sentence of Standing Order 301 that \u201CAn amendment proposed by the member in charge of a bill is taken ahead of other amendments at the same place of the bill.\u201D We have voted already on two amendments proposed by the Hon Tony Ryall that relate to clauses 2 and 3. If we look at the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 151, we see there are also amendments to clauses 2 and 3. My understanding of Standing Order 301 is that the Minister\u2019s amendments to those clauses should have been voted on before the Hon Tony Ryall\u2019s amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00225bd5a2e9b91f4dc3a718f1c348e5f2fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bd5a2e9b91f4dc3a718f1c348e5f2fd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E My point is that if the Minister\u2019s amendments are being taken together, then that is an impossibility, because we would therefore have to have those amendments moved separately, and moved forward in terms of the amendments to clause 2 for the Minister, and other amendments to clause 2, clause 3, and so on. So it would actually negate the entire purpose of the Minister\u2019s amendments being taken together. The practice has actually been to take the Minister\u2019s amendments together at the end. From an Opposition\u2019s perspective, that is actually an improvement, because if the Minister\u2019s amendments are taken together at the start, that may well actually render out of order a whole sequence of Opposition amendments later on. Of course, if that is what the Opposition prefers, I am sure we would be happy to oblige.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022d79feaebfc5b46cb93e1bb939e1bb845\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d79feaebfc5b46cb93e1bb939e1bb845\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I hear what the Minister is saying. However, when we did the Gambling Bill, the Minister\u2019s amendments were taken first. A number of amendments I proposed were ruled out because they were overtaken by the Minister\u2019s amendment, and Standing Order 301 states, quite clearly, that the amendments put forward by the Minister in charge of the bill are taken ahead of other amendments. So what we are seeing here is that members\u2019 amendments have been put, and the Minister\u2019s amendments have been put at the end, which is in contradiction to the way we handled the Gambling Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022d24d98e176a94562b83a4df4dfaf5d81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d24d98e176a94562b83a4df4dfaf5d81\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank members for the way they have raised this point. It is an interesting one, and I have noted the comments made. It has been the custom to put the Minister\u2019s amendments en bloc last. The Chair ruled this on 9 September in respect of the Gambling Bill, Hansard, at page 8469. I think, however, that the member is right with regard to Standing Order 301. Amendments from a Minister in the same place should be taken ahead of other amendments. There are two Minister\u2019s amendments that fall into this category, relating to clauses 2 and 3. The Minister\u2019s other amendments are not at the same place and are not affected by Standing Order 301. Technically, then, the Minister\u2019s amendments to clauses 2 and 3 should have been taken first, but the votes have been taken, and the Committee can now go back only by leave. If leave is not forthcoming, votes shall be taken on the Minister\u2019s clause 2 amendments first, then her clause 3 amendments, then the remaining amendments together. If anyone wants to seek leave, they can do so before we proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc75737714e44fb6b19752bbcb39730f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc75737714e44fb6b19752bbcb39730f\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that the amendments to clauses 2 and 3, set out on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 151, be taken separately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002248961e4f557548dc8ae7c57dec6b0f91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248961e4f557548dc8ae7c57dec6b0f91\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought that those Minister\u2019s amendments be taken\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212c3968703a1435988f1192db8b600d1\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: Be revoted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u002278e617b629db4eefa263aab688754df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278e617b629db4eefa263aab688754df7\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I think the language is not quite right. With the Clerk\u2019s assistance, perhaps you might want to give us the language we need to get ourselves back to a position where we can recast those votes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002284a4f15140a443f5937166e2b7b052a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284a4f15140a443f5937166e2b7b052a4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member. Leave is sought to take the Minister\u2019s clause 2 and clause 3 amendments first, then to retake the Opposition amendments to clauses 2 and 3 after that. Is there any objection to that? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f083004d14a5436b9767a709a56310f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f083004d14a5436b9767a709a56310f2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek your clarification, because your ruling creates, I think, a situation where Standing Order 301 is internally contradictory. What the Standing Order says is that the member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in that member\u2019s name be put as one question. You are now saying that if there are other amendments to that part, then that does not happen, and we proceed to take the amendments of the member in charge of the bill bit by bit, clause by clause, if necessary. I just do not understand this, Mr Speaker. It does not seem to me to make sense of Standing Order 301. I assume the import of Standing Order 301 is now that if there are any other amendments to that part, then all the Minister\u2019s amendments are taken first, and any other amendments are taken subsequently\u2014if they are still in order at that point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u00226809f6fcaee14e1c820d30760fefffe7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226809f6fcaee14e1c820d30760fefffe7\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E That is exactly the point that I made earlier. We have voted already on the Hon Tony Ryall\u2019s clause 2 and clause 3 amendments, which, according to Standing Order 301, should actually have come after the Minister\u2019s amendments. That is why I sought leave for the Minister\u2019s amendments to clauses 2 and 3, on Supplementary Order Paper 151, to be voted on separately ahead of the Hon Tony Ryall\u2019s amendments, then we would vote on those. That is what I sought leave for\u2014and the member denied leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa27d42e61f24f6b9555a0f91ccb4980\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa27d42e61f24f6b9555a0f91ccb4980\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E That is not the point I was making, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00226bac4a3c0a024b15bd389f52a137f438\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bac4a3c0a024b15bd389f52a137f438\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister might well have to divide the amendments if there are other amendments at the same place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022342157cae06e471ca29b40da60c4fba9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022342157cae06e471ca29b40da60c4fba9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, this really does make a nonsense of Standing Order 301. If, say, we have 30 clauses in a part and there are amendments to every one of those clauses, then if the Minister has amendments, all of those amendments then have to be taken one by one. But that is not what Standing Order 301 says. What it says very clearly is that the member in charge of a bill can require that all amendments in the member\u2019s name be put as one question, and that any amendment proposed by the member in charge is taken ahead of other amendments at the same place of the bill. In this case, the place is, presumably, the part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4aeb84602d240c4be5f3f4ad249b5f7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc12d6cd69454904a98f374f32c9bac8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: We have agreed to take the bill part by part. The amendments are to that part, whether it be clause 14, clause 17, clause 21, or whatever the case may be. This is what the House has been doing for some considerable number of years now, and the import of your ruling is to change our procedures very significantly indeed from what they have been for a long time now. I suggest to you that if that is so, then there is no meaning to Standing Order 301, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00229d611b545c1648e5a9480afbc0058955\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d611b545c1648e5a9480afbc0058955\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me just say again\u2014[Interruption] I ask members to listen for a moment. I say again that technically the Minister\u2019s amendments to clauses 2 and 3 should have been taken first. Right? But the votes have been taken. The Committee can now go back only by leave\u2014I make that point. If leave is not forthcoming, votes would be taken on the Minister\u2019s clause 2 amendments, her clause 3 amendments, then the remaining amendments all together.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022f007953e44704f65add8112a95f4f6c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f007953e44704f65add8112a95f4f6c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I am really having considerable difficulty here, because that is not what the Standing Order says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c801bc2b6274a3d8c58afdacd3901d2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b8e821d1cc84f73b118bf7c73911030\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Cullen has the call. The member will come next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c2ad907d3d047f6a0687802a67418cd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I have the floor, and I am trying to understand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287d9582ca0c04433a5f0ee448c17e85e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210d083d507264b1592c568ddd265bcd6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I said Dr Cullen has the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e081024e2c9941f480293607141c06d1\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you might have, but he did not call for a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5e83c7cd69d49b4b564ddbc78f3082c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. If he makes another comment, he goes. I am talking to Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b1a1b9791e547fcaa12fbce13ef3c97\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255512f4b05e342afb66887678f7a7739\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No\u2014I am listening to Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fb395b849ca4f5e8430d063a29f8486\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, hang on, Mr Speaker\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022701e8df6aaea49928d290881c9ee92db\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am listening to Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dadac105bbac4e68b481d15cbf4b262d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: On what basis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b22d4c66754708a8dab83ef8f60711\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: On the fact that he called a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cbcf866eda8a491999622e1f16f18c94\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: He did not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9fcb660256f4d50958e16a24794f0d8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: He did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022634a7f090152447fb9a0bffe55ccb5f3\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, Hansard will not show that, sir.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5db89de45a54b98a2a44107ee8f1dab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E:  Hansard will, and I say it will, and the member will now be seated. Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f27a0428058544eeb1cc4f323343f309\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I come back to my example. If there is an amendment to each clause, then, whether or not the Minister desires to take her or his amendments as one, that cannot be done. Standing Order 301 is simply circumvented by moving amendments to the part. Given that we are dealing with a bill part by part, that is the place in the bill that we are at at this point, and amendments become amendments to the part, because the question is that part 1, or whatever it is, stand part, followed by the amendments that are made to whatever clause it may be\u2014clause 1, clause 14, clause 17, and so on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E We have now managed to come up with an interpretation that renders the first sentence of Standing Order 301, in practice, non-existent unless there are no other amendments to the part. That is not the way that this has been dealt with up to this point. It may well be why we have decided in the past to deal with those things at the end of each part, because it makes more sense than Opposition amendments being knocked out in advance by the Minister\u2019s amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022216027a4055449edbeb359d8066ab83e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022216027a4055449edbeb359d8066ab83e\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (NZ National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I think we could spend a lot of time this evening discussing the finer points of the Standing Order and the circumstances that led us to this point of order in the first place. At the end of the day, much of the confusion probably surrounds the fact that the Standing Orders were written for a clause by clause debate. In that event, there would not be the confusion that currently exists. What is probably required, Mr Speaker, is a ruling from you that makes it very clear how these matters should be dealt with. Although we have the ability to say that we dealt with them in the Gambling Bill in one way, and in other bills dealt with them in other ways\u2014and Dr Cullen says that for some 10 or more years now we have dealt with them in the way he believes we have, and as I think you were trying to rule\u2014it would be far better, Mr Speaker, if you were to come up with a new ruling, given that the current Government has no desire to see any bill debated clause by clause\u2014that would be too difficult for it, and probably too embarrassing. For you to come up with a new ruling would be quite a reasonable thing I think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002267558dce79ee4c219d594133d3287c8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002267558dce79ee4c219d594133d3287c8e\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I would like to respond to Dr Cullen\u2019s suggestion to you and to point out the obvious flaw in his argument. The Standing Order needs to be read as a whole. It is not a question of giving substantial and greater weight to the first sentence\u2014both sentences have equal weight. Dr Cullen is quite right in what he says the consequence will be if the two sentences are given equal weight. But it is a very simple and cardinal rule of interpretation that Standing Order 301 must be read as a whole. Maybe it is fortuitous that this issue has emerged. Maybe it is contrary to the practice of the House, and the House has been following a practice that is contrary to the Standing Order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246e51b295105408ba1364a6afab27d6e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I now understand what the issue is, and I have heard the arguments concerned. The \u201Cplace\u201D is the place within the part at which the amendment stands. This is what occurred on 9 September\u2014on pages 8513 and 8514 in Hansard\u2014on Part 4 of the Gambling Bill. The Minister\u2019s amendments were taken as two questions. I thank members, because I have had an opportunity to consult everything since then. The Chairman has apparently put the question on all the Minister\u2019s amendments. Therefore, it is too late to go back and put the Minister\u2019s clause 2 and clause 3 amendments again. Therefore, unless leave is forthcoming, the only question remaining is that the part stand part. That is the only question remaining, unless leave is forthcoming. Does anyone want to seek leave?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6700e1e55324de3ad092d6117f4dda2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6700e1e55324de3ad092d6117f4dda2\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, I know my colleague behind me is going to seek leave, but I wonder whether for the future, when we go through this process, you could explain exactly what will occur with Ministers\u2019 amendments. Are we now going to see Ministers\u2019 amendments in future bills adhering to Standing Order 301, and being put upfront on each occasion, or are we going to see them being put at the end?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c2752ee632b4d50ba2d29b732aabeda\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the amendments are at the same place they will go upfront, and any Opposition ones thereafter will be ruled out. That is quite specific according to the Standing Order. Of course, the Standing Orders Committee is looking at this whole thing. This is a very interesting point. Mr Tisch wanted to seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e94fb63ad5e34d98aae8478a8a161969\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Before we do that, Mr Speaker, can I just say that I think this is quite a substantial change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229260bdad04eb45f7b4c838e23034700b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is not a change but it is an interesting point, and I can see the point that is being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223dcc03d23a1d4d3dbb17ac4f16de57a8\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: So from now on when we go into the Committee of the whole House, a Minister\u2019s amendments will be where the Minister requests them to be, moved as one. Let us say that we are dealing with Part 1, and the Minister has amendments\u2014to use Dr Cullen\u2019s example\u2014to clauses 7 and 14, when we come to vote on the part, the Minister\u2019s amendments will be put first. I am just trying to understand\u2014if the Opposition\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228214494a17104fc4a9b4cf3647a7a4b0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If they are in the same place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228895c9d2053b4533a3d6e9179fa17873\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, let us come to that. Let us say that a part has 14 clauses, and, within that part, the Minister has amendments to clauses 7 and 14, the Opposition has amendments to clauses 6 and 12, and the Minister requires his or her amendments to be put as one question. Do I take it that the Opposition\u2019s amendment to clause 6 would be put, then the Minister\u2019s amendments to clauses 7 and 14 would be put as one question, then the Opposition\u2019s amendment to, for example, clause 12, may or may not be put depending on whether the Minister\u2019s amendments were passed? If the Minister\u2019s amendments were passed, then it may be that the Opposition\u2019s amendment could not be put because the part was already amended?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022611bcf514c25457991a3735bbe2cda7d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This is a very interesting question. From the example the member has given it does not seem to me that they would be in the same place. I will have a look at this. I will look at the whole transcript, and, if necessary, I will come back with something further. Unless leave is forthcoming the only question remaining is that the part stand part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002245ee2248d87e43bba7855ec7088a1750\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245ee2248d87e43bba7855ec7088a1750\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT NZ):\u003C/span\u003E From here\u2014I may have missed a part of it\u2014am I to take it that the leave, when it is sought, will be on the basis that the word \u201Cprovision\u201D, where it appears in Standing Order 301, is being read as if it meant \u201Cpart\u201D; if so, we have the consequence, as you have said, that the precedent established would be that a Minister\u2019s amendments would be put first and they may well rule out many others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249e0ba480da54703bd822b31b8223777\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, leave can be sought to do anything. If leave is granted, that can apply for this particular case. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272a721049898443a903891e2a3e5c73c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Can I just complete my point, Mr Speaker. The difficulty that I think you have portended, and that the Hon Dr Cullen was referring to, is not there if \u201Cprovision\u201D is read in its natural meaning, recognising that this Standing Order would have been drafted by people before part by part debates were the norm. If \u201Cprovision\u201D means \u201Cclause\u201D, then the difficulty is very much reduced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f59915c8694e44fc826416b9cb2b8c29\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the member that because we have clauses and parts and that type of thing, it might well be something that the Standing Orders Committee has to look at. I say again that unless leave is forthcoming, the only question remaining is that the part stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022569bac6b157c43459c8200e7c0c4e73f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022569bac6b157c43459c8200e7c0c4e73f\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that the amendments to clauses 2 and 3 set out on the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 151 be voted on separately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216c74957f63341a185e258856e68a526\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is. So the only question forthcoming is that the part stand part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002238e94efa8954447681b6cb71f454a009\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238e94efa8954447681b6cb71f454a009\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There is another question. The other question is that if leave is not given, then the question cannot be put on clauses 2 and 3, because this amendment is surely for the benefit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222887c1a6dcb94a7f8824ba7b6dc39c36\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, it already has been.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022295fe53f9550416a95cda512a6e1c1de\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Not on the Minister\u2019s\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b044ed56265042238277fa27c936ec75\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry, it has been. I have been advised by my people in front of me that it has been. The only question forthcoming is that the part stand part. I declare the House in Committee again on the Supreme Court Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002226c33db21b714c3a90d087c46c98e981\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000836\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221a261f81232247a78e63f9e3d5b5b6db\u0022\u003EPart 1  Supreme Court of New Zealand (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228ec483bc22974ddca65b3d614ff484e7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 52\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 26; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 5;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022574acfb277d44f7ab2b5e5281e88162c\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments, repeals, transitional provision, and savings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222475fbda6b36477584839aa52ffae396\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the honourable member Murray Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd1f07eac8c34d33b25d6028b28a3e56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd1f07eac8c34d33b25d6028b28a3e56\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I have to ask how we get into a situation whereby the largest Opposition party has two members seeking the call who have been on the select committee, but we end up with a member of a junior Opposition party getting the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00221dcb878f87534e09aceb0487efb1f6b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dcb878f87534e09aceb0487efb1f6b5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I know what the member is going to say. Can I just say to him that I looked, I could not see anyone out of the side of my eye, and Mr Smith was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212ab45e9a8984b8b971e8078d248c45a\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Come on!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d96b7c6673174711840fb2c71eea2894\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am giving a ruling. The second part is that under Speaker\u2019s ruling 23/3, once the call is given I cannot take it away. I have noted now that you have raised a point of order. I am sure that the call will go to that side next time, but I have called the honourable member Murray Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u002232a5b6fa31774f339ac0f3183cf8f703\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232a5b6fa31774f339ac0f3183cf8f703\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make reference to clause 48, relating to the transition period. This matter caused the select committee some concern. The bill initially provided that it would come into effect 28 days after receiving the royal assent. That time limit for bringing in the situation was very, very narrow. The difficulty that was clearly going to arise was that there would be conflicts of interest. Court of Appeal judges, who are the ones most likely to be promoted to the Supreme Court, could well face the situation where, as the sole members on the Supreme Court bench, they were looking at decisions on appeal that they themselves had given judgments on in the lower court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe initial proposal appeared to be that temporary judges would be used in that instance. That was clearly undesirable because, given that most of the Court of Appeal judges may well end up on the Supreme Court, it would mean that, in the early stages, almost every decision being appealed would be a decision in which former Court of Appeal judges who were on the Supreme Court had participated, and therefore temporary judges would have to be used. The difficulty that that would create is that the court would get off to a false start. It would look like a Mickey Mouse court because the full-time judges are not sitting on almost anything at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EA number of dates were proposed in order to try to get round that problem: the date that the appeal in the Court of Appeal was lodged, the commencement of the hearing in the Court of Appeal, the completion of the hearing in the Court of Appeal, the date of issue of the judgment, and the date of lodgment of the Supreme Court appeal. United Future took the view that there was really only one date that was relevant, and that was the date upon which judges could be changed; a Court of Appeal hearing would not have commenced, and judges who were not going to be on the Supreme Court could be appointed to hear that case in the Court of Appeal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn the end, the select committee accommodated that to a large extent, but decided that the date would be the date of completion of the hearing. That may give rise to a situation where judges who have completed their hearings then find that they are on the Supreme Court, and therefore are facing their own judgments. However, we were assured by the select committee officials that the vast bulk of Court of Appeal cases were dealt with within a 2-day period. It also appeared that the Supreme Court judges would be appointed prior to the commencement date of the bill. That certainly seems to be the case now, given that the bill will commence on 1 January 2004, but the hearings will not commence until 1 July 2004, and given that the Court of Appeal judges who will replace those Supreme Court judges will also be known. It also appeared that, given the limited number of cases that were likely to be appealed to the Supreme Court, and given the workload of the Court of Appeal, it would be possible to ensure that any prospective Supreme Court judge did not hear a case in the Court of Appeal, and, in fact, that no cases would be heard in the Court of Appeal during the critical period.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIt was for that reason, and particularly because we are really talking about only 2 days, that United Future went along with the proposal. We did subsequently, as will be known, suggest to the Government that the date be extended\u2014that instead of it being 28 days after the date of assent, the date be put out. We are now faced with a situation where it is likely to be some 2 months after the royal assent before the bill comes into effect, and a further 6 months after that before the first substantive cases are considered. Therefore, it seems that that problem has really been abated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe second clause that United Future had real concerns about was clause 51, which provided that the rules of the Court of Appeal would apply until new rules had been developed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002287b8afaac1e3455793d4850735c1a042\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b8afaac1e3455793d4850735c1a042\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the Chair for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on Part 2 on behalf of the National Party. I start by observing with a degree of sadness that the contribution Labour members have made to the debate, at the very highest, would have to be described as minimal and ungenerous. Indeed, it is my recollection that only one Labour member of Parliament has spoken, apart from those members who moved closure motions, and that was the Attorney-General, who has nominal charge of the bill. That is a pity, in the context of Part 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbb5f8dc8d5a46c4be55f678267adafa\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I bring your attention to Speaker\u2019s ruling 51/5, which relates to continuous interjections by members. Two members\u2014the senior and junior Government whips\u2014have in the last minute made a constant barrage of interjections against my colleague Richard Worth, and I ask that you rule on this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022571a9b44fcfd4620850e370852f6cf50\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: There is no need for me to rule. Interjections are usually always going on in the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c632491f94842da819fd0a84637a48b\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I referred to 51/5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243e0498266754e1f82516bd399be18eb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, interjections need to be rare and reasonable. The interjections were perhaps a little unreasonable and too constant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da6f787a1ed4888b22d9e80a86d4121\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: I am not concerned by a barrage of interjections from people like the senior Government whip. That is to be expected from a person who does not have the wit or the intellect to make a substantive contribution to a debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EI want to talk about Part 2, and not be further distracted. I want to talk about the lack of contribution that Government members have made to Part 2. The last significant piece of constitutional law passed was the Constitution Act, which was passed in 1986. On that occasion every member of the House voted in favour of it. The voting on Part 2 of this bill, which is a significant constitutional part, will have a margin of, maybe, three votes. It will be the slenderest of margins. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn the calls that I hope to be given on Part 2 I want to focus primarily on clause 43, which amends section 57 of the Judicature Act and, in particular, provisions relating to the composition of the Court of Appeal. Clause 43 proposes a new subsection for section 57, and deals with the constitution of that court. I would like to deal with the topic in the context of the announcement by the Attorney-General and, to some extent, pre-empted by the Prime Minister, as to what the grand plan is for the composition of the new Supreme Court. The proposal that the Prime Minister first advanced and that her faithful follower the Attorney-General seems determined to implement, despite the involvement of a Clayton\u2019s advisory panel, is that the judges of the Court of Appeal will simply be transmogrified into Supreme Court judges. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe Court of Appeal is probably the court of record in our hierarchy that has the greatest pressure in the context of doing intellectually challenging work. If it is the plan to move those judges from the Court of Appeal to the new Supreme Court, and leave one remaining, the Court of Appeal will be gutted, yet it will be the Court of Appeal that remains as the body that is destined to resolve the most significant pieces in terms of the hurly-burly of court cases that require appellate review. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260a4cbb0301d43fd8841a63027ec149a\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Absolute doom merchant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222abd6fc467a94d87bc6d298166d3f629\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite talks about doom merchants. I think, in response to her interjection, that it is a huge sadness that the new Supreme Court takes life under a significant cloud. It is a cloud because there is no real support from so many members of the Committee for these changes. It will be\u2014or should be\u2014one of our great constitutional structures; our final appellate court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209d9a3b1c47140b99bb39bc178019b61\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Why didn\u2019t you support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6c84475e70545e1960cac20da31a514\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: The member asks why National did not support it. If she had been present, as she most likely was, and, more important, if she had listened, she would have heard a series of what I suggest are compelling arguments in favour of the retention of the current structure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u002226fee1c2551e40b5912e7c8a31b8a959\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002226fee1c2551e40b5912e7c8a31b8a959\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I want to acknowledge the contribution by the last speaker, the member for Epsom. He is an acknowledged experienced lawyer, and I have certainly taken on board his contribution, but I believe that New Zealand has come to a stage where we need to look at the competency of our own people and the legal minds that New Zealand has to offer. I was very interested to see the committee report, not only in relation to the Australian and New Zealand judges\u2019 contribution to New Zealand and Australia but also in relation to the contribution those judges make to the Pacific region. \t\t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003EI want to go through some of the lists that have been compiled. Eleven countries, which is a significant number, rely, in terms of the highest court decisions that they make\u2014although they still have the option of the Privy Council\u2014on New Zealand and Australian judges. That is an indication of the maturity and the competency of those who are trained in the law in New Zealand. I have every confidence that the Attorney-General, as the former head of that distinguished faculty of law at Waikato University, has assessed that we in New Zealand do have the competency for the training of our lawyers\u2014and, ultimately, judges\u2014and the quality, judgment, and integrity of our judges to form a competent Supreme Court for this nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003ECanada and Australia were British colonies and dominions for as long as New Zealand has been. If it is good enough for those countries, in terms of their histories, to now come to the conclusion that it is time to cut the umbilical cord from the mother country in relying on the Privy Council for their final legal judicial decisions, then the time has come for us to do the same.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E We should have our own people who are competent not only in relation to law but also in relation to knowledge of our own local environment, and I take on board the fact that there is a Treaty of Waitangi. Tangata whenua are concerned in terms of the relationship with the Treaty of Waitangi and with the Crown. But I would like to say that this bill does not mean that that ends the relationship and the obligations that the Crown has with tangata whenua and in the Treaty of Waitangi. There are provisions, and this Government is navigating cautiously and helpfully in relation to those issues. I believe that the Government is taking the right course in terms of consultation, both with M\u0101ori and the wider New Zealand community,  to look at setting up our own Supreme Court and using our own people, who have the competency and integrity to carry the job out adequately in terms of our needs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6a872fe0a574c2cb685548b2ebd8fb2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6a872fe0a574c2cb685548b2ebd8fb2\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (NZ National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Under the Standing Orders, we ascribe a degree of status to the member in charge of the bill. The member in charge of the bill is given a favoured seat in the Chamber. The member in charge of the bill is supposed to listen alertly to the debate\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a46a9e6e404427a79265f2264f3009\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226839e8ab25944e199de0bfb3a1f275e2\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: May I complete the point of order so that you can form a judgment about the merit of the argument that I am making on the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44f24b374bb431185dc800d621c5631\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. That is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207676552e76f41059d0369d3985dbdcd\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Could I just explain what the point of order is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233b7767d00f949c0afda804de691c155\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: You have not come to a point of order yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a2c4d1083e34b449b6954020eb9ea57\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: It is this: the member in charge of the bill, in procedural terms, has a duty, I suggest\u2014first, to listen to the argument; second, and more significant, to evaluate the argument on the amendments put by members. We have been treated to the sight of the Attorney-General, the member in charge of the bill, reading magazines. She should be listening\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa381f5572324e108d9099d013d6f2e1\u0022\u003EHon Margaret Wilson\u003C/span\u003E: I have this bill!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ded9c5bd8e14e4ab0a816f62f7f1584\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, the Committee, I suggest, is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd97564ec9484cafad8a998331f0d099\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister makes no comment on members in the Committee, and nor should members make comment on the Minister. You do not know what the Minister is doing. She may be thinking very deeply about this bill. What you say is fine, but it is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u002205c71c88484d48cd940648c655ce20f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002205c71c88484d48cd940648c655ce20f5\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (NZ National):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 deals with amendments, repeals, transitional provisions, and savings. I wonder whether the Minister, who lodged a Supplementary Order Paper today\u2014and quite an extensive one; one that has some impact on Part 2\u2014might take a call to explain the impact of those new provisions she has tabled, because of course those did not come before the select committee. One has not necessarily had the chance to read them carefully, and, at the same time, the opportunity to question officials about their impact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI have had a call today from people involved in what will possibly become the subject of an appeal to the Privy Council, regarding the foreshore and seabed case. They wonder whether the provisions in the Supplementary Order Paper lodged today will have any impact on their desire, should they see fit to carry their appeal through to the Privy Council. Maybe the Minister might take a call, and we might not get there tonight, but I am sure she will oblige in the next session of the Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to acknowledge Minister Taito Phillip Field. I am very pleased that he took a proper call and made the comments that he did. I have great respect for him and for the things he said. I have to say, though, that I found it difficult to reconcile his comments about New Zealand having the competence to form our own highest court of appeal. He said that we have our own people who are competent to form a strong bench\u2014those are not exactly the words, but that is essentially what he said\u2014and it is time we broke the ties with the Privy Council because we can do what Canada and Australia have done: that is, show our capability and our own competence here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E I do have difficulty with those statements, on two counts. The first is\u2014and my colleague Pansy Wong referred to this earlier\u2014to do with the honourable member\u2019s pleadings or petitions in respect of the case that was so important to his own Western Samoan people, and how the Samoan community recently sought to have the impacts of what was done to that Privy Council decision reversed. I point out to him that, in effect, that was not so long ago. That sort of thing could happen again in New Zealand. It happened in New Zealand in our highest court, and justice was seen by the Western Samoan people to be delivered in the form of the Privy Council decision. I had a bit of difficulty with his comments, but I recognise that he is entitled to make them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI also had difficulty on another count. I think it is so ironic that members of the Government stand up and talk about our own competence in New Zealand to establish the highest court in our court structure. They say we have the people in our own judiciary who have the competence to form the Supreme Court, yet it is that very Government that has shown its disdain for those judges who are likely to sit on the new court. It has shown it has no respect at all for the competence of those judges, by saying it is going to step in and legislate because it does not like the Court of Appeal\u2019s decision on the foreshore and seabed case. It is so ironic. This irony has been pointed out to me a number of times by M\u0101ori during the Government\u2019s consultation hui on the foreshore and seabed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that on the one hand says we have the competence in New Zealand, that we are grown up and have the judges to form our highest court of appeal, yet on the other hand, in one fell swoop, on the day after the Court of Appeal delivers a pretty substantial and significant decision in relation to rights that M\u0101ori assert in the common law, indicates by the action it is going to take on the foreshore issue that it has no regard whatsoever for the competence of those judges it is now going to appoint to the new court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022ff57a501fd18434c9ab36cb497d99aca\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ff57a501fd18434c9ab36cb497d99aca\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Attorney-General):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 deals with very important provisions, although it is only a short part of nine provisions dealing with repeals, amendments, and transitional arrangements. I just want to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to that fact, and to congratulate the select committee again on its consideration of the bill and also on ensuring that there would be preservation of the ability to appeal to the Privy Council, in the case of decisions that are delivered by the Court of Appeal after the commencement of the legislation. I think that is an admirable addition to the bill because it puts beyond doubt that all matters that are currently there will, in fact, be attended to in a timely fashion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe second matter has been referred to by Mr Smith, and that was the concerns that were expressed in terms of giving sufficient time for the introduction of the running of the new Supreme Court. That is why the provisions are there in the Supplementary Order Paper, to make it clear that while the Act comes into force on 1 January 2004, which puts beyond doubt that that is the date it comes into force, it also provides\u2014sensibly I think\u2014that the first cases will not be heard before 1 July, although matters relating to applications, etc., may well be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003ESo those amendments and some other small technical amendments, particularly to the schedules, to ensure that we have covered all the consequentials, are contained within the legislation. As I said, of course I am interested in those who talk to the matters in the bill or to the amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EProgress reported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002255056375294149e580701f50bd8aa64d\u0022\u003ESpeaker\u2019s Rulings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ede7827d0b974ee4a2d7954e4903f37c\u0022\u003EPoint of Order\u2014Dr Cullen \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002211f1b1fff2114d77859a8c2e5686be73\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002211f1b1fff2114d77859a8c2e5686be73\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: When I was ruling earlier tonight I called Dr Cullen for a point of order, thinking that he had raised one. When Mr Brownlee protested. I said that Dr Cullen had raised a point of order, and explained expressly. I thought he had done so. I am now aware he did not say \u201Cpoint of order\u201D. I was in error in my assumption that he had said so, and I apologise to Mr Brownlee for not calling him at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f4a845a06dec4b468b7a4924f076dcd6\u0022\u003EPersonal Explanations\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b3e597cc78d4ec0b99967dd41a76403\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002208424c71f36343b3a9d50d59db0c0841\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208424c71f36343b3a9d50d59db0c0841\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E In response to question No. 5 today, my wording was that the Accident Compensation Corporation has a contract with Federated Farmers, and that may have implied that there is direct payment to them. In fact, the situation is that there is a strategic partnership between the Accident Compensation Corporation and Federated Farmers. No direct payment goes to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031008830a3c3249b247d09b7ec9ac1a74dbbc000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 9.57 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"