"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f7c1da4c47d343b8b09b06d57d2f5bab\u0022\u003ETuesday, 21 October 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293816a5fac6c40449831c6b53644020a\u0022\u003ETuesday, 21 October 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc675d24f6e34067a095645dd79e08f0\u0022\u003EObituaries\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6d4162f4866460e9bcf59b759362569\u0022\u003ERt Hon Frank O\u2019Flynn\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022011266992d884628a9b20a52945e81f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022011266992d884628a9b20a52945e81f8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I regret to inform the House of the death on 17 October 2003 of the Rt Hon Francis Duncan O\u2019Flynn QC, who represented the electorate of Kapiti from 1972 to 1975 and that of Island Bay from 1978 to 1987. He was Minister of State, Minister of Defence, Minister in charge of War Pensions, Minister in charge of Rehabilitation, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Associate Minister of Overseas Trade and Marketing from 1984 to 1987. I desire, on behalf of this House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with his wife, Sylvia, and the relatives of the late former member. I now ask members to stand with me and observe a period of silence as a mark of respect for his memory.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHonourable members stood as a mark of respect.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002235f33def29bd485cb55860e3bdae6798\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002267c00f620bdf4751a9f799a92afa9018\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225e0da73306994e07b0eb7d17bec4b323\u0022\u003EUnited States\u2014Prime Minister\u0027s Meeting with President\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c59163b1af449bc9d2faa8fd4e55d92\u0022\u003E1. Hon BILL ENGLISH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Did she raise with President George W Bush, during their 12 minute pull-aside in Bangkok, the speech on United States - New Zealand relations prepared by United States Ambassador Swindells for delivery at Victoria University earlier this month; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022ecbd8063947e4bd28a67f3a4c06278d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ecbd8063947e4bd28a67f3a4c06278d9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No, because there was no reason to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f2fe5e220b44b33aab30c40a2ae8de0\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that President Bush has said he wishes to complete a free-trade agreement with Australia by Christmas, is the Prime Minister aware of the serious costs to New Zealand if that occurs, and can she tell the House what those problems are?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221055b56ab06c479b89e840a9e7bae292\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The best information, firstly, is that the economic benefit to Australia is relatively small\u2014that is the official Australian analysis. Secondly, it is unlikely to get any rapid access for agricultural products, particularly beef. Thirdly, there may be some investment diversion. But, fourthly, in so far as there is any benefit to Australia, as it is our largest trading partner some benefit will flow on to New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9a8bffac2144265838ddcf92562ed1a\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister discuss with the President of the United States the \u201Cneither confirm nor deny\u201D policy on nuclear ships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee6aebac19844cc8e6bc469557a3ba9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. The United States policy on this issue is well established, and is unlikely to change in response to calls from the leader of a minor party in a small country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288b05a72a27148c4888498581079ef04\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Does she think that, on reflection, perhaps she and her Government are reading a wee bit too much into the significance of the 12-minute pull-aside, in view of the fact that all APEC leaders had at least 12 minutes with President Bush, and the fact that a long string of APEC countries received flattering comments from the President immediately prior to that meeting?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212d97772ceab4e4a85cd48eed9bac020\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is not attempting to make too much of the meeting, but the meeting was a very friendly one and President Bush continued to make very friendly comments about New Zealand, including about our contribution to the war on terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdab861796404f048e509669dac294d3\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Prime Minister suggest during her meeting that New Zealand would surrender its nuclear policy, as some political parties in this Parliament have suggested we should do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4fafc7b1e3c457e97ce75ec58e41846\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, because, in part, the President might well have asked for further information about the views of various political parties. It would have taken far too long to explain the differing views of the National Party on this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222bcd5bc6e76c4f249e8ff4ceaf84cbe5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that one political party in this House\u2014namely, the Progressives\u2014is so beset on its roller coaster ride to oblivion that it is painting other parties\u2019 policies on the question of nuclear-capable and nuclear-powered ship visits in a totally, maliciously false light?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243719572c53d442f8bfe629c9ad390ea\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister cannot answer a question about what another party is doing. That is up to the other party\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7999bfc77644c63a8a9067a2cf51e2c\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Point of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0f80fa6f7484c55a7a9f083b839c9bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to reflect for a moment. Perhaps the member could repeat the question. I think he did actually have it in order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9e623ce47cd4c87bf7e40fd4d6bfcdb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Bearing in mind that the Progressive party is a part of the Government, is the Prime Minister aware that a political party on a roller coaster ride to political oblivion is so beset with its journey that it is now painting other political parties in this House, on the question of nuclear-capable and nuclear-powered ships, in a totally false light, \u00E0 la Mr Robson\u2019s latest newsletter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d76d1c0ac074f9cbadb70bfa1102600\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, because it would be impossible to misrepresent the National Party\u2019s position; it has had so many that any possible statement must be true.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab9495d6894426d9d0453da99e138ee\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not think the Prime Minister answered the question. Winston Peters\u2019 question was about the way that New Zealand First\u2019s position has been misrepresented by Mr Robson\u2014nothing to do with the National Party, whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225206e9a0ad24fa7b714480f543d73ee\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not hear the member mention his own party, but if he was doing that, perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister could make a brief comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c3e49f316274846be163672c5158067\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not aware of that. I am aware that the New Zealand First Party has consistently stood in favour of the ban on nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed ships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4291d4666cd4655ab57d9aba5453a22\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell us what benefits New Zealand has derived from her warm, open, friendly, and insulting relationship with the US, apart from photos and headlines, that could conceivably bear any relation to the contribution New Zealand has made, with its significant troop commitments on the other side of the world; and when is she going to have something to show for all the grovelling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd212cc51b7b40aab1b5b42b13ff8ab9\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand has committed itself in support of the reconstruction of Iraq, and against the issue of terrorism, not in order to grovel\u2014although that is an interesting indication of why the member might do such a thing\u2014but because they are the right things to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d75d5a06b6634b80a95873331cc5cd9e\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 2 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0cfb7c153144004977d435f73dffbc5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I call question No. 2, I am advised by the Minister that she has a slightly longer answer than usual, and I will take that into account with supplementary questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022542ec652fbc34cd1884087996e85f14d\u0022\u003EBurrows Family\u2014Department of Child, Youth and Family Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209202da9d17a47899b11b9c56369f365\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF): Does she stand by her initial response to written question No. 9993 that contact between the Cremen-Burrows family and the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services \u201Chas been largely historic and was with various members of the family and extended family\u201D, and her initial response to written question No. 9723 that \u201CNone of the previous contact has been related to the care and protection of Coral or her brother Storm.\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ee7ca19c369643abad99249b34b1d21f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ee7ca19c369643abad99249b34b1d21f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E No. Neither of my written responses to those questions was correct, and they have subsequently been corrected. Since lodging the answers originally, I understand that Mr Burrows made a further contact with the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services on 21 January this year. His call was received but was not classified by the recipient of the call as a notification. A notification is a phone call to the department\u2019s call centre that requires further investigation. As a result of information about that call, an independent investigation has now been announced into whether the department\u2019s system for recording telephone calls is adequate, whether Mr Burrows\u2019 call was dealt with appropriately, and how any issues arising can be addressed in the future. The findings of this inquiry will be made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca2464afd2854949b1858d08fac53bea\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Why were details such as the 21-minute telephone call to the department on 21 January by Coral\u2019s father only disclosed in the Minister\u2019s follow-up answer to a written question, and does the department always need an entire month to locate the records of important and lengthy telephone calls?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022130b3e1d82ea4f68805c5114af529723\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Part of the terms of reference of the independent investigation will cover the very questions the member has asked in her supplementary question. The originating call was not recorded because it was not considered to require further investigation, so it is not on a database. One of the questions the investigation will cover is whether the non-logging of calls that are not then escalated to an investigation is appropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f83e891f456044d2a0a8703a3bb2ceb8\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: What steps have been taken to assure the public that they can have confidence in the department\u2019s ability to provide care and protection for our children and young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f880b0e3655494dafb84af44ef680e6\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I have welcomed the chief executive of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services\u2019 announcement of the independent investigation for precisely that reason\u2014so that the public can have confidence in the department\u2019s ability to provide care and protection for our children and young people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229df9543dfece4f05bf9a08f04eee39cc\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile her comment that the call was not recorded as a notification, with one made by the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services spokeswoman that \u201Cany concerns\u201D\u2014not some concerns\u2014\u201Creported to the centre about the well-being of children are treated as notifications, then recorded and investigated\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225b136e94aae4637997e631089d6c4b9\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The social worker who receives the call at the call centre makes a professional judgment about whether the concerns raised require further investigation. In the case of Mr Burrows\u2019 call, that professional judgment was that no further investigation was required.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b3f207153f406b825bad1b08388283\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question asked how the Minister reconciled her comments with the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services spokeswoman\u2019s specific comment that any call to the department was treated as a notification\u2014not some calls, but any call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbad60858fc346cebb819c703400827c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the Minister did address that part of the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229486abff18dd437fabe84b655b5ba8f4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How is it possible that a 21-minute call that dealt with a man called Williams, who has 91 convictions for violent assault and all manner of mayhem, which have been brought to the attention of the department, did not graduate to being a notification of the matter; what sort of a department is she running when that matter is put aside as being of no importance, whatsoever?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022325186f33dbf4d7a99bd41514c7c0135\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the content of the phone call, or whether any assault or particular allegations were made about the man who is subsequently facing the charge of murdering Coral Burrows. That is part of what the investigation will determine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2a2dceb312247f1b6534be296d12030\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the overwhelming failure of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services in this tragic case, and the attempted cover-up, will the Minister support a select committee inquiry into the operation of this department, which, under her Government\u2019s stewardship, has had a record 17.5 percent turnover of social work staff and a record 89 percent increase in open cases to 24,895, and if she will not support that sort of inquiry, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205bb78f4ca0e4e7eafd8d478bf3d608f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In my view, the credibility of the independent investigation into the specifics of this call, how it was handled, and whether our process for recording calls and logging notifications within the department is satisfactory will bring us all, as parliamentarians, the information we require to assess what future changes might need to be made. At the invitation of the select committee, I would be very happy to discuss this issue after the findings of the inquiry have been made public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eaa92cad7f042d1a4eb117d2812b344\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister taking any steps prior to the reporting back of the investigation to ensure that Department of Child, Youth and Family Services staff who take calls have both enough life experience and sufficient professional training to be able to detect\u2014to at least some degree of accuracy\u2014which callers are likely to be genuine, and when the subject of the call is serious?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022554698690b0b4c2da16b3369db5268ab\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: As the member will know, we have taken considerable steps over the last few years to ensure the increased professionalism of social workers, including the recent introduction of the registration process. That on its own will not produce the results the member wants, but it is a significant contribution towards that. Any other findings that are discovered by the independent investigation will be made public and acted upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242af0c74be094ae78f880f65696cb320\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why an inquiry into whether Mr Burrows\u2019 telephone call was dealt with appropriately, and into whether the department\u2019s system for recording and actioning telephone calls is effective, is required, considering that an evaluation of the department\u2019s call centre was commissioned in 2001, or were the results of the previous evaluation never implemented properly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585bd30bc94a464a812adc983e649994\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is the case. A previous investigation into the operations of the call centre was made. Obviously, it has not uncovered all the issues. This is one that was not picked up adequately during that review, and that is why we are having an independent investigation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228d76ab1660f400dab2429781a403c30\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain how a tearful father can ring the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, talk about concerns for his kids\u2019 safety and about their behavioural problems, talk about heartbreaking things like a little girl soiling herself due to distress, talk for 21 minutes without one note being made, and that not be deemed a notification?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255142c7984584becac8f8de8f5c54233\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: It is not clear at this stage that no notes were taken of the call. It will be up to the independent investigation to determine the appropriateness of the notification. I think it would be quite irresponsible of me to determine whether that case was dealt with appropriately upon the call, because I have heard only one side of the conversation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211e133ea141454290ef57f543066e69\u0022\u003EJudy Turner\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that an inquiry such as the one regarding the Burrows case was inevitable, and will continue to be inevitable, while the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services continues to operate under the pressure of mounting systemic problems, such as gross underfunding, high staff turnover, problems with retaining experienced staff, and difficulties with providing a timely response to cases until they are of extreme urgency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237b3e2fe45444b4bad44a34c06ddb4ed\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: One of the reasons that the Government agreed to undertake a first-principles, baseline review, when asked by the department in December last year, was to look at those very issues. When the department was originally set up by the National Party immediately prior to the 1999 election, it was significantly underfunded and clearly lacked the infrastructure it needed to bring two major departments together and deliver adequately, and\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d46d916454404fb0c356786112b1f5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is enough interjecting on this question. I want the answer finished.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db1bc56564e44767bfb14661d2d9b2a5\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In my view, the findings of the baseline review reflect that original neglect, and I am delighted that our Government has now the opportunity to finally put it right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc43c126f5b44d4952a58923a54542f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hope the House is not going to operate according to rules that state that answers to questions can include the implication that the National Party is to blame for Coral Burrows\u2019 death, and that the Minister has no responsibility for her own department. Of course that will be greeted with interjections, because it is objectionable. This Minister answers questions here precisely because she has the portfolio responsibilities\u2014as she has had for over 4 years. To then create disorder by accusing the Opposition of being responsible for the bad behaviour of her department will lead to interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258e3fac932b94ca69a37db4f02f51277\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it did, and it led to a lot of interjections. I let a lot of interjections pass before I intervened. I let the interjections grow to a point where I then judged that I could not hear the answer, and that is when I stepped in. I certainly allowed plenty of interjections.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226328ef4c91744d38a8bf6333f93c3fcb\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister now telling the House that there could be notes of the conversation as a result of the call; if that is the case, why did Child, Youth and Family Services deny all knowledge of any call whatsoever when Ron Burrows first made his allegation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e8552abb1cb44a483a965e1ddd6bbfb\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that, yes, notes could have been recorded as a result of that call, but that has not been finally confirmed. My further understanding is that the department said that there had been no notification, which means the process of the call being escalated to the point where it requires investigation. That was part of the personal apology from the chief executive of Child, Youth and Family Services to Mr Burrows.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022413e329b6b3341b4adf77231b4f0b85c\u0022\u003ECommunity Service\u2014Attendance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ed88471026d49738005614fc7cf5d40\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: How many people sentenced to community work in the year ended 30 June 2003 failed to turn up in time to complete the full hours scheduled for the relevant day and how many have been punished for that failure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022607c7b231a744df3b0833bb6d727b91f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022607c7b231a744df3b0833bb6d727b91f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E In the year to 30 June 2003, 27,936 offenders were sentenced to community work. All had between 12 and 24 months to complete their hours. During the course of the year, formal breach of sentence review action was taken against 6,206 offenders. Most would have been breached for failing to report when required. This represents about 22 percent of offenders starting a sentence during the year, and is similar to the rate for periodic detention and community service in previous years. As was the case for periodic detention, a number of offenders would have received warnings from their probation officer and did not need any further follow-up action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec6dee1ac0904066a9a7a939bfd86a71\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: My question was \u201CHow many people sentenced to community work in the year ended 30 June 2003 failed to turn up in time to complete the full hours scheduled for the relevant day, and how many have been punished for that failure?\u201D; not \u201CHow many have been prosecuted?\u201D. I ask the Minister to answer the question that was asked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286eaa153ecb34795b074be3693786776\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I tried to explain two things to that member. First of all, since the Sentencing Act changed, people can now complete their sentence between 12 and 24 months. So therefore, sometimes people have a 24-month period to complete it. Secondly, as in many cases that happen under periodic detention, if people fail to report they are given a warning\u2014they are rung and they turn up, and that is not counted. The point of the matter is that I have tried to answer the question on the information I have, and I have given the member accurate figures.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c9af971c17843599fe77b880d3d5d89\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: What happens to offenders who have committed a breach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b24fda03917468d8a25863241c9c7f1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: The offender will go back to the court, and the court can impose a fine of up to $1,000, impose a prison sentence for up to 3 months, or impose a further community-based sentence. This is no different from the punishment system under the previous Government where offenders who breached periodic detention were often sentenced to more periodic detention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8b6248c4b1e4fefb30d26b74a75a81c\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government breaching its own good-faith mantra by agreeing to a negotiating guideline that sees the Department of Corrections wanting to send community-work staff home unpaid if no one turns up, when those staff should more appropriately be telephoning or tracking down the significant numbers of non-attendees of community work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f074c57600644303a22ee43c52ecb404\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Any employment relations are not the responsibility of the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a23dadf8dffe46ba9c81006b243f8c0d\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: You set the guidelines. It\u2019s your policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0ac80799ac94c9390069fe2ee2d854b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That previous Minister will know that that is not the responsibility of the Minister. It is between the Department of Corrections and the appropriate union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fd260a0b4d6473aa7277b729dabe458\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that his failure to ensure that persons who have had up to $30,000 worth of traffic fines issued by the police, and written off by the Department for Courts in place of community work, carry out their sentences, is undermining the work of his colleagues who are valiantly attempting to reduce the road toll by issuing quota tickets, hand over fist like an eight-armed octopus?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002255623d9812214f8297fbd3a7ecc1684f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Transport I am concerned about people who are not fulfilling their obligations. It is important that people who are sentenced to whatever form of detention\u2014be it imprisonment or community service\u2014fulfil that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229351fd051254454d8818511e87172939\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Given the revelation that in some cases up to 60 percent of offenders may not turn out for community work sentences\u2014instead of trying to cut the hours supervisors are working, why does the Minister not ensure that they are paid for as many hours as it takes to find the offenders, do the paperwork, and ensure that they are punished so that it is never again worth treating a community work sentence as optional?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226544ac869ad64873932d671863be1089\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, that is an industrial dispute, as the member knows. With any industrial dispute, statistics are usually the first casualty. The reality is that the 60 percent figure mentioned by that member is simply not true. Even if the figure were 40 percent, which has been mentioned somewhere else, that would mean that around 16,000 offenders were not turning up, and that is simply not true. Those figures are being bandied around and will continue to be bandied around until the matter is settled between the department and the union.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c6ecd3a38e04e5ea731fe47a2c6c5c4\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: What percentage level of non-compliance would the Minister consider acceptable, and what level of unpunished non-compliance, if any, would he accept, given the inability to answer the earlier questions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a50af7c689e460b82477a92a6a32758\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: If one looks at the annual report of the department\u2014even though I acknowledge to the member that it is early days\u2014one would see that compliance for the first full year is around 89 percent. The department has set its objective at 70 or 80 percent, which is about what it was under the previous Government. The department thinks that it will probably settle back to that. The reality is that in the current annual report, which was submitted to Parliament last week, 89 percent of compliance is the result that has been achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245760c6b4de54f6e88ee3191286bb683\u0022\u003EAPEC\u2014New Zealand Trade\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e81a0d2631314b2ab245bd981fdee8de\u0022\u003ETIM BARNETT (Labour\u2014Christchurch Central)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Trade Negotiations: What benefits to New Zealand trade emerged out of APEC discussions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0916a6a770f499f8789d7288a8f1c68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0916a6a770f499f8789d7288a8f1c68\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister for Trade Negotiations):\u003C/span\u003E The APEC economies at this week\u2019s meeting committed to re-energising the Doha round negotiations, which are vital to us as a small trading nation. It is only through the World Trade Organization negotiations that we tackle major problems such as export subsidies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f942702460154d8bb4b566fe3bcdb40a\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: As well as the boost to regional and multilateral trade relationships, what bilateral trade enhancement was achieved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a87b1b48b974c289aac199449c9da0a\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The most significant was the high-level agreement with the Thai Government to progress a trade agreement with New Zealand, with the ambition of having it ready to sign at next year\u2019s APEC leaders meeting. That may have significance for our dairy trade. We also had the opportunity to explore issues further around potential trade agreements with several other economies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1101e4f5c6248d1a5912272c6727b8d\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Why should New Zealanders believe that there is any likelihood of a free-trade agreement with APEC partner the United States\u2014currently negotiating with Australia\u2014any time soon, given that we are not even on the list of potential negotiation partners?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fae44ba87544960a500bfc32b22bdb5\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member should be aware that there is encouraging support amongst the United States business and political communities for a trade agreement with New Zealand. Our embassy in Washington and the business community in New Zealand make continuous efforts to advance our case, as do Ministers and the Minister for Trade Negotiations when in discussions with the US administration\u2014despite the opposition from the Opposition, I may say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2e8579e2fa840c69dd32063643e2018\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Whom does the Minister think he is fooling with this answer, because, despite having spent over 100 days overseas since the last election, and having spent probably in excess of half a million dollars on these matters, he has achieved nothing new, and his ineptitude almost matches that of the Minister of Immigration, Lianne Dalziel, but he is not quite as bad as that, yet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242e40967292c46ef898a3b2cd05b1eb4\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The member should eat his heart out. He will never have this job.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab499fc9a53449f98cff4f65106df740\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I would like the Minister to make a little bit more\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287f673c57c7c4ddeb8179c6d9abd4c65\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. One hundred days abroad, and after his expenditure of probably about three-quarters of a million dollars if I take into account his staff, and no results, \u201CEat your heart out. I\u2019m the one who\u2019s enjoying the gravy train.\u201D cannot be an answer \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f19f98956db44fe28b73fad0f33a8a7e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just said I would like the Minister to be a little fuller in his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0a198d1f7d84381a6cbc445838fca11\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Any trade Minister would need to spend 100 days abroad, or more, to do the job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218f2cd259e9f4dbcab783e06fadeb488\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Notwithstanding the Minister had the same level of ambition for a free-trade deal with Hong Kong and that has not come off, how in all conscience can the Government be seeking a free-trade agreement with Thailand when that country has an appalling record of exploiting tens of thousands of children, when its minimum wage, of less than $1 an hour, is below the cost of living, and when the Minister well knows that thousands of jobs in New Zealand, particularly held by M\u0101ori and Pacific Island workers, would disappear in what is left of our clothing sector, if any such deal did come off?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d990e02d7a541b493547113a6e5d36b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: I have every confidence that our agreement with Thailand, when it eventuates, will be of benefit to both countries, will increase employment in both countries, and by that being done in Thailand will put it in a stronger position to address the sorts of problems the member refers to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002268c456fd572240d6ae13057fcdd851b0\u0022\u003EGenetically Modified Sweetcorn\u2014Test Results\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d68e35753c24897b6bd5f05860fe062\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does she stand by her replies to written questions Nos 9460, 9461, 10050 and 10051 in September and October 2002, in which she stated that samples of corn seed were collected from Talleys and Seed Production Ltd by MAF and sent to GeneScan Australia for testing, that Novartis paid for the tests and owned the results, and that Novartis verbally notified ERMA and MAF that the results were negative for genetic modification; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u0022673e8ae3627c4969b856f32e3629ea8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022673e8ae3627c4969b856f32e3629ea8c\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister of Energy),\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: Yes, the Minister stands by the advice she was given.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3b8e06212b24fac939a1da142ae13b1\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile those answers with evidence given to the Local Government and Environment Committee by Syngenta, previously Novartis, that it had decided not to proceed with those samples, and said: \u201CWe do not have any record of sending samples from Talleys or Seed Production to GeneScan. We have no records. There are no results. This is an issue about which we know nothing more than that.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226361574b24e04b7fbf5a8cfeacd00939\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot know what is going on in the select committee, of course, but I can say that there was no time when any person in any company from any country advised any department of this Government that there were any positive tests from that corn, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a232de251d864507a06361861ae22c0d\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Approximately how many seeds were tested in the year 2000, and why were they tested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022907e17dc307241ef8dc63400e559b7f7\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Tens of thousands of seeds were tested. The reason it was such a large number is that the first test suggested a positive. We now know the reason for that was that the first test was faulty, because the known negative control also suggested a positive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220439395113e9432887fd269776affb4b\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that during the election campaign Minister Pete Hodgson and Minister Jim Sutton both said there were further tests not in Nicky Hager\u2019s book that showed the test was not contaminated, and that in the answers to two written questions in September and October specific tests on seed production and Talley\u2019s samples were referred to, the Minister said those samples were taken, they were tested, and they were negative, but the select committee has now found out they do not exist, how many more cover-ups will we find in this Government\u2019s claims over \u201Ccorngate\u201D; if not, where are the tests?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243bd72ed405e456fa72a05fd3586f9e5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were three questions there. The Minister may comment on two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4fedfea4494e97a7abb15947be5420\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: This particular batch of corn has been tested much more than any subsequent batch of corn that has ever come into New Zealand. Apart from the first test, which is now known to be faulty, all the tests that have been carried out by any company in any country have proven negative\u2014whether they have been amalgamated or disamalgamated, and whether the seeds have been gathered from growers and then put into one sample or gathered from growers and put into more than one sample. No matter how one looks at it, the chances of finding a positive test in this instance are lower than finding that dear old D8 in the Manapouri tunnel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287e011186ea94bb18393fae1bc8dfcbe\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Greens come to the Government and the Minister outraged, resolute, determined, and resolved, with their heartfelt and grave concerns before the Supreme Court Bill was passed last week, or is this a matter of principle flying out the window again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254a9544a89f84b0eaf694f82938b6b56\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good statement, but it is not a matter over which the Minister has control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8876b21adb64886b7c41081e8477953\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I presumed you might make that mistake, so I asked whether they came to the Minister with their concerns before the Supreme Court Bill was passed. That is just a matter of timing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022482e303c4b6b4ad4ad6d49a2b7424bf1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If that specific question can have either a yes or no answer, the Hon Pete Hodgson may answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226894e3d729e342989f71b961fec82122\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229474bb89533c4aebb7d2c4b47f02db44\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I assume that you will not accept that the Minister has addressed that question. He did not stand and he did not seek the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210e9477323ff4a26859fc55e45f40ec8\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is perfectly correct. The Minister will now stand and call me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022316dea212aa948f4a5c69b147c78acfc\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I regret I do not know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dab89b1f5d648dcba8e2b670f29e1b4\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: How did the Minister give the replies stated in those written questions referred to in the primary question, when the evidence now from the company responsible, Syngenta, is that those examples do not exist and never did exist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d75665202a464c8b96d5ede381fb015b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Because that was and is the advice to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b928625ad16249c192437179a1114cc6\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise the House again why she knows that the first test conducted by Crop and Food Research was wrong?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb7d0bc6261747909fc31e9170e0e120\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. When testing is undertaken, a control sample known to be negative is tested alongside the sample under investigation. In the instance of the first test, both the sample and the control suggested a positive. Therefore, the test itself was faulty. Had it not been faulty, we would not have had tens of thousands of seeds tested, or \u201Ccorngate\u201D, or a select committee inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356b8d3c3e8a43098e283487c33d1d3d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister clarify for the House whether we are to believe the Minister for the Environment\u2019s answer\u2014that samples were taken from Talley\u2019s and seed production parts of that batch of corn, that they were tested and were negative\u2014or the evidence presented before the select committee by both the Environmental Risk Management Authority and the company that those tests never existed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250576f9a975c48cc965f6022de7a0aea\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The former proposition was, and is, the Minister for the Environment\u2019s advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce1af96eaa8f45278f025df7fdf313c7\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is satisfactory that Dr Hannah of the Environmental Risk Management Authority, who drafted the replies to her question, still asserts that that advice was received from Novartis but has no file note of his conversation, did not ask for copies of the test results, and cannot recall the date of the call or precisely who made it and to whom; and why does the Minister still believe that that advice was correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283bcc120f59445b682b6ee11eb5f9522\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot speak for Dr Hannah\u2019s memory of 3 years ago or for the memory of the multinational biotechnology company, but I notice that the member asking the question prefers to take the advice of the company. That surprises me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ccc83663cf340b7870fbd681fe1d38d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister for the Environment maintains that indeed the samples were taken and the tests exist, as she told Parliament last September, will a commitment be made by the Government to provide the test to this House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae3a24894d542bf94bedb38b0d1cd5a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has no written record of the tests\u2014as I understand the House was advised by way of answer to the written question that gave rise to this question of the day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002280c2039afe9140ba82a8ab2be4ce3b90\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: While the committee is still endeavouring to determine whether the correct advice was received by the multinational corporation or Dr Hannah, and has no view on that matter, does the Minister think that this vagueness, complete lack of written records, or even requests for test results in a case of this importance is the sort of attention to detail and accuracy that we can expect from New Zealand\u2019s regulatory authority when it is managing the risks of GE release?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223da4105719324dd69778be18077edea5\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that whether the two tests the member wishes to bring to the House\u2019s attention were carried out, were carried out by way of amalgam with another sample, were not carried out, were carried out but not reported, or whatever\u2014no matter which of those many, many permutations is the truth of the matter\u2014there is another truth: tens of thousands of seeds were tested by many different agencies in three different countries, and reports of those tests were made available to the Government. No such report looked like being positive except for the first one, which turns out to be now known as wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d58c7ee53034a619f189bad9cc4a582\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u002208685b940466481d8e3326515ac61016\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208685b940466481d8e3326515ac61016\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the last seven issues of robson-on-politics\u2014found at www.progressive.org, not \u201Coblivion\u201D\u2014to show that the Rt Hon Winston Peters was wrong to say that I had mentioned his party\u2019s nuclear politics. I have talked only about its attacks on immigrants. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EDocuments, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u002229da5fb8dee8499fa8e826c5bd94893c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229da5fb8dee8499fa8e826c5bd94893c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a press statement from Mr Robson, which totally debunks what he has just attempted to table in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af59ef22aed744e59b3122816c469150\u0022\u003EBurrows Family\u2014Department of Child, Youth and Family Services\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022682d17403bf5437686fc323075e3e0bb\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF): When Department of Child, Youth and Family Services spokeswoman Christine Langdon said that Child, Youth and Family had no record of Ron Burrows\u2019 call and they had \u201Crigorous processes in place for recording notifications\u201D, what are these \u201Crigorous processes\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0d9f6d7e9a54659a11fc8b1d4cccdd5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0d9f6d7e9a54659a11fc8b1d4cccdd5\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that when receiving a call the social worker determines the facts of the situation, the immediate and future safety of the child or young person, and whether in his or her professional judgment there is sufficient concern to justify investigation. If investigation by the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services is considered necessary, the call becomes a notification and is logged on the department\u2019s computer system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fcc828be0724e22b704649491d9955b\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree with another comment from the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services spokeswoman, that \u201Cany concerns reported to the centre about the well-being of children are treated as notifications, recorded, and investigated\u201D; if so, why was Ron Burrows\u2019 tearful 21-minute call\u2014detailing issues that would upset most parents\u2014not notified, recorded, and investigated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394975abd3b14d6cb81b22569251949c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, not all calls received by the call centre of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services are determined to be notifications and recorded when the call is received. The social worker who receives the call makes a professional judgment about whether further investigation is warranted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c971ec81a3cc4c5284fb94c0667194e1\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Government done to ensure that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services has the resources to respond appropriately to information received regarding the care and protection of children and young people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae623dc9ad5f4007a53d0c087eadce04\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: From the end of 1999 to the end of 2002, the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services received an increase of more than 50 percent in baseline funding. In January of this year the Government agreed to a Department of Child, Youth and Family Services request for a first principles baseline review, the outcome of which will be announced shortly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c93c124aaaeb4377ac92a0342ab48c0f\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister consulted any other Ministers to seek assistance for the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services in addressing child abuse and neglect; if so, what have they suggested?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992d2a52a040412f938b16e1906d5a2c\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The issues surrounding the call for a baseline review impacted directly on the ability of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services to deliver its statutory, and other, Government policy requirements and obligations. That has involved very close consultation and work with other colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223517153ddf114c53b6fcb7ca5b5f30fc\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: How can the public have any confidence in the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services inquiry into this case, given that a previous inquiry into the department\u2019s involvement in the deaths of two Masterton schoolgirls, who were killed by their stepfather, Bruce Howse, in 2001, has been delayed four times, and has still not been released 18 months later; and, in light of accusations of Government interference, why will the Minister not support an independent inquiry by a parliamentary select committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239b3bcfa95c242a1a477263d202a1e97\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I will answer all three questions as much as possible, but I do find the terms \u201Cindependent\u201D and \u201Cselect committee\u201D slightly oxymoronic. Frankly, I would have more faith in the independence of Ailsa Duffy QC in relation to the specific inquiry that was announced last week by the chief executive of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services. In relation to the report into the deaths of the two Wairarapa girls, my understanding is that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services has agreed to withhold its response to those murders until the response of the Commissioner for Children is released, and that response has been delayed for a little while. The reason it has been deemed better for both reports to be released at the same time is to reduce further trauma for the family and the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1d4c2be284a465c942c3fb82dd8a245\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: In light of Mr Burrows\u2019 comment that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services call centre told him he would have to substantiate the claims he had made before action was taken, how does the Minister expect parents who are worried about child abuse, unsafe conditions, and older children wetting and soiling themselves, to substantiate claims if that is the new benchmark to get the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services to do anything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e5abc8eab8740f2b98a7a302e9c640a\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that substantiation of claims is not necessary before a call becomes a notification, and that will be one of the issues that Ailsa Duffy will be investigating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2a571539bbf4f14be783a7242ca4ed8\u0022\u003EWorld Heritage Committee\u2014Membership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0839267b5641f0a949985b8af28763\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: What are the implications of New Zealand\u2019s election to the World Heritage Committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9925a4344e543ecb3eaefd5174bbe90\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9925a4344e543ecb3eaefd5174bbe90\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E Our election gives New Zealand the opportunity, for the first time ever, to be part of the decision-making process within the World Heritage Committee and to promote the heritage values we believe in. It was an excellent result by New Zealand. We won by the biggest-ever margin on that committee\u2014top equal; one of 22 candidates. That shows the very high regard for New Zealand internationally, and the effective campaign that we ran. It also gives us the opportunity to have heading our delegation paramount chief Tumu te Heuheu, who has continued the leadership work of his forefathers in conserving the natural and cultural heritage of this country. It is really good news for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eac4b79d083b4778a92399af4adf3627\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: Will New Zealand be seeking to represent the region on the committee, as well as the heritage values of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c2f56f5228244bba2fdffd7000cfb2b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: New Zealand stood for the position on the World Heritage Committee as a country with three important world heritage sites of its own that it is committed to preserving, but it also campaigned on the basis that no country in the region had ever been represented on the World Heritage Committee. In that sense we stood on behalf of all Pacific Island countries, and will be working to ensure that they have input and that their voices are heard, also for the first time, in that forum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fab449319fc648339f150ab564af9def\u0022\u003EEmergency Response Unit\u2014Internal Investigation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e53edfad90a483f849a88cd4e7e4c63\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Corrections: Does he believe that the Department of Corrections\u2019 internal investigation into the emergency response unit meets the requirements of transparency, accountability, and integrity?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022057dc6366efa4af98c81b4980e7f0d9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022057dc6366efa4af98c81b4980e7f0d9d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Corrections):\u003C/span\u003E Generally, yes. Within the constraints of the Privacy Act, as much of the investigation\u2019s findings have been released as is possible. Members of the emergency response unit were held accountable for their actions and disciplined, and systems have been changed as a result.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c3b95e19ecb48f395cc5f73b944bafc\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister say that it meets those requirements when the investigating officer, Mr Tony Dyer, on Saturday, 18 October stated: \u201CManagers being investigated were able to refuse to be tape-recorded; managers could refuse to be interviewed until after they had received full transcripts of the witnesses\u2019 interviews and, in some cases, a copy of the questions we intended to ask; managers who were controlling the investigative process had clearly been involved in some of the decisions being made, and were now being investigated; and senior managers went on leave when they were required for interviews.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c9f745d2ebf4fb999aa1839a65196df\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have seen the article that the member refers to. I think it is fair to say that virtually all the allegations made in it are true, except the one right at the end, which I am investigating. They have all come out before. The reality is that, with the way the system worked, natural justice meant that the people who were being accused of things had a right of reply, and it seems that that is one of the things the member is upset about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022256c7a9a850a4bafb022eb9d5508088b\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the public debate regarding the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D, a prison officer being charged with smuggling methamphetamine into Rimutaka Prison, and now news that five prisoners are taking the Public Prisons Service to court on allegations of cruel treatment, why is this Minister intent on abolishing the private prison contract with the Auckland Central Remand Prison, and replacing it with the very same Public Prisons Service that is causing him so many troubles?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022883383cb64d44b9b86957e79e186f74b\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: If that member wants to defend the record of private prisons around the world, I am very, very happy to provide him with that information. The reality about the private prison is that that is a Government commitment, which we are going to honour. Although we cannot talk about that particular case, I am interested once again to hear that member sticking up for criminals instead of prison officers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8a1b75cdc64296b8fda0e50ddf3798\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd4c5751db004bfb817875049cf7fbbe\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d6a8585a0ce64ff0be6be3567f1f9d04\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member withdrew and apologised for that last sentence, which he was going to be required to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b86d11261684a25aca1f5fea9574b33\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: What should people do if they have any further information regarding the emergency response unit?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aea537773284d0295235d2e342c4c3a\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said previously, if people have any new information they should pass it on to me, the State Services Commission, or the Ombudsman. I am still waiting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c74714d703824e468b2d882564d54a34\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: By whose authority was the emergency response unit given funding, how much was allocated, and, given the grievances arising from both inmates and corrections staff as a consequence, just how much has the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D so far ended up costing the taxpayers of this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c61194b0d614eafbe1a343a93feb0fe\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are three questions there. The Minister can answer two of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211ab49aadc5242cfa7407e1138a2ca95\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: That is quite detailed information, and I do not have it in front of me. If the member wants to put that matter down as a question, or come and see me, I will be happy to provide him with the information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aa97dbdc71e4d1d89177638bbcd7657\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister were to receive, in confidence, the names of prison officers\u2014I repeat, prison officers\u2014who are prepared to state, on oath, to an independent investigator that aspects of the department\u2019s evidence presented to investigators regarding the death of inmate David Rewi Haimona were at variance with their observations of the events, that key persons who witnessed the events surrounding the death of inmate Haimona were never interviewed and were specifically excluded, and that affidavits were put in front of prison officers for them to sign that contained falsities, would he immediately ask the State Services Commissioner to launch a totally independent inquiry into that evidence, or would he simply do as he is continuing to do and cover up for inept management by the Department of Corrections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d1c18d06e1c84cabad747c7a6ae5cad7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As I have said to that member, both publicly and privately, I would welcome some new information. As the member knows, I am considering a range of options, but if the member were to give me, in confidence, the names of those people, of course that would be part of my decision making in looking at where we should go. I have said that to the member on many occasions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002214e9eebc9d7b445797a75561f38c9cea\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister expect the public to have confidence in the department, when he has blocked attempts to hold a select committee inquiry into the activities of the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D, and blocked both scrutiny and accountability on questions of payouts as a result of those activities\u2014calling them employment related and hiding under that\u2014thereby denying taxpayers, who must fund these payments, the right to know where and for what their money is being used?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022656705f2723c41de9124137a246c03ff\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: As far as the select committee inquiry is concerned, I have ruled that out and I have given very good reasons for that. As far as acknowledging payouts is concerned, those are employment matters, which come under different rules, and that is the way it should remain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221208e289872f48949ebce24ea612f48f\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Why was Tony Dyer, a member of the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D investigative team, told to use a specific format and not to use detail, but, when the report was completed, the detail was deemed to be insufficient for its findings to be supported, and the Minister subsequently decided to block United Future, New Zealand First, and National demands for an inquiry, when surely his rationale, being based on the veracity of that report, must itself be flawed and undermined by the report\u2019s stated lack of credibility; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222aa1b8152e634175a5b8957368db59e1\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen these allegations, and they have been looked into. But, as I said, I do not have a closed mind on where we should go to next. I am asking for new information that can help us decide where we should go from here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002295569826d0e647ef92bccd2077034c0d\u0022\u003EEmployment\u2014At-risk Young People\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f5e43bcc83c4900a0b96f3defac3e68\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education): What approaches is the Government working on to help at-risk young people get into employment or further training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00226c4b86c01ce9491e9fe9c87d9525725f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c4b86c01ce9491e9fe9c87d9525725f\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Associate Minister of Education (Tertiary Education)):\u003C/span\u003E Last Friday I launched the trial of Youth Pathways. It is a new programme for young people, who leave school with no concrete plans, to put them into employment or further training. Ninety school leavers in three locations will receive one-on-one guidance through a support transition programme run by Career Services. That programme is one of a number of initiatives designed to ensure that, by 2007, every 15 to 19-year old is engaged in appropriate education, training, or work options that will lead those people into long-term economic independence and well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022871cba31789f4e04a53ba19cdf69b73b\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives does the Government have in place currently to help at-risk young people to get into employment or into further training?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223c45300975f49cabd5e9140c5bb7119\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Heaps. But to pick out two of the initiatives that are outstanding, I would mention the Modern Apprenticeships programme, which is focused on 16 to 21-year olds, and currently involves 5,739 participants. The programme recently received a boost of $600,000. It is so popular we needed to put more funding into it. I also mention that the Prime Minister and I announced further initiatives, like Youth Pathways, as part of a $56 million education and training school-leaving age package in the last Budget.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230c6cc4c74f9479ab60d17d6ebb0d919\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is the fact that the number of students being officially allowed to leave school before they are 16 has doubled in the last 5 years because of the reduced capacity of schools to cater for these students; and is he satisfied with this appalling increase?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b3f5a0a1387455bb0b8e5dae452d1a9\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The question is better directed to the Minister of Education, but since I happen to be the Acting Minister of Education I will, on this occasion, try to answer the member\u2019s question. These issues are of concern to all of us\u2014that young people are leaving school at that time. That is exactly why the Minister of Education has been putting in place programmes to ensure those young people are not truant, are not suspended; they are at school where they belong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226e7a46013c4146118914778127fdebb6\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014M\u0101ori Land Court\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022757fbd04c3a84cc198c494f78f5e27d5\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom)\u003C/span\u003E to the Attorney-General: Will the Government be asking the M\u0101ori Land Court to adjourn foreshore and seabed cases before it for \u201Csomewhere in the order of six months\u201D; if so, what is the Government\u2019s time frame for finalising the foreshore and seabed policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc96e67dccc14890a51e198cbb6768ba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc96e67dccc14890a51e198cbb6768ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House), \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Attorney-General: The Government will be making an application to the M\u0101ori Land Court to adjourn foreshore and seabed cases, to provide more time to complete its consultations and clarify the law, but no specific time frame has been set. It is certainly hoped that consultations will be complete and the policy details announced this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4074f6b285847619881c30a46ecbe25\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: When Crown counsel Mr Doogan told the Waitangi Tribunal yesterday that he could not say for sure whether the Crown was \u201Ccommitted to maintaining\u201D the so-called four principles, was he telling the truth, or was he misleading the tribunal, and, in fact, the four principles remain in force?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2bbdb648838400191b4522fd5004fb1\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Neither. But the four principles do remain in force, and I will be ensuring that Crown counsel are better briefed before they reappear on Thursday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3b09d877c74d73a7e07752dff55db4\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Attorney-General undertake that the M\u0101ori Land Court will one day be allowed to decide on the claims that are before it, and to define customary property interests, as promised by Dr Michael Cullen to the Omakau hui; if so, how will the principle of certainty sit with the bias that appears when the same judges are wearing their Waitangi Tribunal hats?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d30d93f725db4469a6ce9142de536828\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Attorney-General is committed to fulfilling any promises made by the Hon Dr Michael Cullen. The member raises a very interesting issue about people wearing two hats, one of the Waitangi Tribunal and one of the M\u0101ori Land Court. I suspect that is an issue the Government may want to look at in the near future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213ede1b1795b45ef8b200e0b3add02c2\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Arising from his answer to a supplementary question, in what specific way will Crown counsel be \u201Cbetter briefed\u201D at the next appearance? What was the shortcoming in the information provided to the Waitangi Tribunal by Crown counsel on behalf of the Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8f66ae4c3ad49fa8907b02091287483\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: In M\u0101ori terms, there was a failure to have a kanohi te kanohi meeting between the Ministers and Crown counsel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022741b08d543b44b10beb45454eb395630\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Not only was it impossible to hear that answer, it contained foreign language references.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213e7bfcbf6a447e1b3715f316c164971\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, could the Minister repeat his answer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236b47d5fc06f4c19beece42c18f74dde\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The answer I gave was that the failure was probably the fact that there was a failure to have\u2014to use M\u0101ori language\u2014a kanohi te kanohi briefing between Ministers and Crown counsel. That means face to face.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002292e1004661e840a189d2fd8d9b947139\u0022\u003EAlgerian Refugee\u2014Security Risk Certificate\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da244b026a684c8090050aeb67022054\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: Does she agree, in light of the Ahmed Zaoui case, that the \u201Cframework for issuing security risk certificates \u2026 has been shown to have serious flaws\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00226dc9643245f746f592c3bc7ebab57bab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dc9643245f746f592c3bc7ebab57bab\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E No. This is the first case that has tested Part 4A of the Immigration Act, inserted in 1999. Given that the hearing of the appeal to the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, which was made at the end of March this year, has not even begun yet, it is too early to draw conclusions about whether there are any flaws in the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8888718e13e4c2ba03b9c0df7a58a15\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree with the New Zealand Herald editors that to deny Mr Zaoui even a summary of the accusations against him\u2014as the Inspector-General has so far decided\u2014is a breach of natural justice and against the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202c1cfb9e659422ca85aca5184348b11\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not agree with the New Zealand Herald\u2019s editorial, any more than I agreed with the New Zealand Herald\u2019s decision to print the man\u2019s name and his photograph after my specific request not to do so back in December last year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219c673e5f7794fd6a6c2827d349447e8\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: How are the individual\u2019s rights, in cases involving national security, balanced with the public interest when classified security information cannot be released?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226161c96790a54c40a3102f388d615ec4\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Section 114A of the Immigration Act, which sets out the objects of Part IVA, states that the balance is best achieved by allowing an independent person of high standing to consider the classified security information and approve its proposed use. The Ministry of Justice vetted the bill that brought in this part, and, after some changes were made to the original draft, it considered that it achieved overall consistency with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, thus there was no requirement to report in terms of section 7 of the Act. That is another reason why I do not agree with the New Zealand Herald.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b16ed5f820f94126b42896e4fdf08fa5\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that in other Western jurisdictions there is an allowance for a summary of the classified information, without endangering the safety of any person who is a source, to be provided to the accused person, and that such a provision is in section 38 of our Terrorism Suppression Act, passed by Parliament last year; is not this in contradiction to what she has just said, and why does she not support a summary of the classified information being provided to Ahmed Zaoui?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227eab61e2b47e49ed951056e93d7be7ba\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that a summary was, in fact, included in the interlocutory decision of the Inspector-General. I make the point to that member that the Security Intelligence Service cannot operate effectively without cooperation from overseas counterparts. Overseas intelligence agencies require the service to give cast-iron guarantees that certain information supplied by them will be kept confidential. That is a quote from the from the Ministry of Justice compliance with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report, and I am happy to table it in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227471e8fcc314401d95b2ccb0f6892399\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister apologise to Ahmed Zaoui\u2019s lawyers for attacking them for pursuing all possible legal avenues, particularly in the light of very strong criticism from the Law Society of her attack on the lawyers; and is it not the lawyers\u2019 duty to do everything possible for Mr Zaoui, who faces possible torture and death back in Algeria if the refugee status he now has is finally overridden by the security risk certificate process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1b0a1b4d12841bdaef7ecbb9d9d1106\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The point I was making was that it was a bit rich for the lawyers to be arguing that his continued detention was the fault of the Government when in fact they were the cause of the delay in having this matter heard. As I said, the appeal was lodged in March this year. It was deferred until after the Refugee Status Appeals Authority decision, and there have been further interlocutory matters. I draw that member\u2019s attention to the rules of professional conduct for barristers and solicitors, which state: \u201CA practitioner should not make any statement to the news media relating to proceedings which have not been concluded, which may have the effect of, or may be seen to have the effect of, interfering with a fair trial.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbe1af7fc08447a1ae0fd0523990609d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Speaking about these lawyers, and Mr Locke for that matter, can the Minister tell me, firstly, how many fundamentalist Islamic countries did Zaoui pass on his way from his place of origin to New Zealand, and, secondly, what is the exact cost now to the New Zealand taxpayer of having this person in our country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022716df0b6ef8643829101c4ef2034e0b9\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have that information with me, although I do have a copy of the Refugee Status Appeals Authority decision. If the member wants to look through that, he will see that it makes it very clear which countries Mr Zaoui travelled in. He left Algeria, I believe, some 10 years ago. He had been living in Malaysia for a number of months, if not years, before he chose New Zealand. He selected New Zealand as the destination, which is made very clear in the decision. In respect of an update on the amount of costs, I understand that they are over $60,000. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI seek leave to table the Ministry of Justice compliance with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act report of 12 August 1998.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2f65048634946b5a40974411980e916\u0022\u003ESmall Business Advisory Group\u2014Benefits\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e565013fa324301aea6e9489eb3d6cb\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Small Business: What benefits does he expect to flow from the appointment of the Small Business Advisory Group?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u002244697918e9864a7fad64fa90f5602957\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002244697918e9864a7fad64fa90f5602957\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister for Small Business):\u003C/span\u003E Last week I announced the appointment of the new Small Business Advisory Group. This group will ensure the Government hears the views of people in real small businesses, which can be very different from what big business bureaucrats or academics are telling us. On this side of the House we believe that the best people to tell us how to support small business are those involved in running small businesses day to day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022925b81f5e9894f9b9cc46348d8af1ff2\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: How was the group selected?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002222a9d04eb6464171ba3ca6e66e1002fc\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Over 240 applications for the positions were received. The nine members appointed represent a diverse range of sectors and regions. The most important factor in selecting these nine members was hands-on experience in small business and strong networks within the small business sector and in their communities. The appointment of this group, combined with other initiatives such as implementing over 80 percent of the recommendations of the business compliance cost group, represents at least 95 percent of potential benefits to business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b7ce5ed40d2a4531a0f40f74db646e9b\u0022\u003EUrgent Debates Declined\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225235b4c22d5447e5aba8ddff5cea4dba\u0022\u003EAlgerian Refugee\u2014Ahmed Zaoui\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002233d89c2c0f8347efaea38d232af585fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233d89c2c0f8347efaea38d232af585fb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have received a letter from Keith Locke seeking to debate under Standing Order 376 the transfer of Ahmed Zaoui to Auckland Central Remand Prison. This is a particular case of recent occurrence involving the administrative responsibility of the Government, but I do not believe that the transfer of a prisoner requires the immediate attention of the House by way of an urgent debate. The application is declined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220fcdc2f6b6e74adfbee27d11be64c8ca\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ecb6df3e84b474f8b46d9c28c4f6fff\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a32a6d8065e54d2d9f38bc737213c1d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a32a6d8065e54d2d9f38bc737213c1d7\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Land Transport Management Bill be now read a second time. I would like to thank members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for the excellent work they have done on the bill. The committee listened very carefully to the many considered submissions it received, and the bill has been improved as a result. I would like to offer a special word of thanks to Helen Duncan who chaired the select committee for the most part, but had to step aside towards the end of the committee\u2019s considerations for health reasons. Thanks also to the Hon Roger Sowry, who stepped in at short notice to complete the process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill broadens the focus of land transport funding, encourages more long-term planning, and allows for greater funding flexibility. The bill also represents a further example of the ongoing collaboration between the Labour-Progressive Government and the Green Party on transport issues signalled in the cooperation agreement signed after the last election. I would also like to acknowledge the input of the United Future party, particularly around issues to do with alternative funding transport mechanisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill reflects a multimodal approach. It is an important step in implementing the New Zealand Transport Strategy. I was heartened by the support that the principles underpinning the bill received from submitters. However, many submitters sought changes to improve the implementation of the bill. Some thought that the decision-making framework set in the bill was too complex, while others were concerned about consultation. Many submitters also called for more funding tools to be made available, in addition to the bill\u2019s tolling and public-private partnerships, and others argued that these provisions were too restrictive. The select committee has addressed these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill integrates the New Zealand Transport Strategy into land transport funding and management decision-making processes. The bill\u2019s purpose reflects the New Zealand Transport Strategy\u2019s vision, as do the objectives of Transit New Zealand and Transfund New Zealand. The strategy\u2019s objectives are used as important criteria for decision makers to take into account. Decision makers need to make decisions after carefully considering and balancing each of the strategy\u2019s objectives. The committee has worked hard to ensure that the decision-making criteria throughout the bill have been made as consistent as possible, whether as Transfund approving funding for a busway or the Minister making a decision on a tolling scheme. Overlaps and duplications have been addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESome submitters argued strongly that efficiencies should be included in the bill as an explicit decision-making criterion. The Transport and Industrial Relations Committee has recommended that this be done. In my view, efficiency is implicit in the concept of sustainability, which is ingrained in the bill\u2019s purpose and elsewhere. None the less, I believe there is value in stating this explicitly. The committee has recommended that it become one of Transfund\u2019s criteria for approved funding, and this is a good proposal. This is a critical decision-making point of the bill. Transfund, of course, is responsible for allocating some $1.2 billion of land transport funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe committee has also recommended explicitly linking the key documents in the bill with the bill\u2019s purpose. These documents include land transport programmes prepared by Transit and local government, the Annual National Land Transport Programme, prepared by Transfund, and Regional Land Transport Strategies prepared by regional councils. This approach strengthens the relationship between these documents to the bill\u2019s strategic framework. Land transport programmes and the national land transport programme are also combined with 10-year financial forecasts. This ensures that programmes have a long-term view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe committee also recommended that the strategic nature of regional land transport strategies be emphasised by requiring that strategies identify the transport outcomes sought by the regions and the strategic options for obtaining these outcomes. To underpin these changes the membership of the committees that prepare these strategies also needs to be changed. Regional land transport committees will now need to consist of interests that reflect the objectives of the New Zealand Transport Strategy, as well as representatives of local government, Transfund, and the Land Transport Safety Authority. The regional land transport committees must also take into account the views of network providers like Transit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ERegional land transport strategies will also need to contain a traffic demand management strategy. Traffic demand management is becoming an increasingly important way of dealing with the pressure on our roading infrastructure. It is simply not possible to build our way out of congestion. Traffic demand management measures can range from better integration of traffic management systems to travel blending, which incorporates the use of more than one mode of travel within a single journey. Other examples include walking school buses, teleworking, and special public transport services for major events. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe bill also allows regional councils to own public transport infrastructure and services. The committee has suggested deleting the complicated approval process set out in the bill, and instead utilising the provisions of the Local Government Act. This is a very good proposal, and I support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EA number of submissions raised concerns about a new power for the Minister to give instructions in relation to funding priorities. This was set out in clause 14 of the bill as introduced. The committee has recommended that this power be deleted and, instead, that we rely on the Minister\u2019s powers to issue general directions on Government policy as set out in schedule 1. The power to use directions was carried over from the existing Act. Such directions must be published in the Gazette and presented to the House. The Minister cannot give directions on individual projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThere were concerns expressed that the bill\u2019s consultation requirements were far too onerous. The bill as introduced provided for consultation on land transport programmes, 10-year financial forecasts, and tolling and concession agreements. It should be remembered that the existing Transit New Zealand Act provides for consultation on land transport programmes with many groups. The recommendation to combine programmes with 10-year financial forecasts means that a whole layer of consultation has been removed by the committee. There was also some inconsistency between the lists of groups that should be consulted, and the committee has recommended changes to address this issue\u2014another good change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe committee has also recommended a closer link between the new Local Government Act and the Land Transport Management Bill. Local authorities, which are responsible for 80 percent of the land transport system, must consult under the provisions of the Act. The principles and processes under the Act have been brought into the bill to give greater clarity about who should be consulted and how they should be consulted. In addition, it has been made clear that local government does not need to consult under the provisions of the bill if it has already consulted on its long-term council community plan. This was something that local authorities called for in their submissions. Further, the tolling and concession agreement provisions provide that consultation is not required if there has already been consultation under the bill, or any other enactment on the proposal to toll or enter into a concession agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EAs far as tolling and concession agreements are concerned, the bill as introduced puts into place a generic framework for approving tolling schemes and concession agreements. Tolling schemes require approval by Order in Council, while concession agreements require ministerial approval. At present, toll arrangements require special legislation. Many submitters supported the Government\u2019s move to make these tools available as an alternative way of funding roading projects. While some argued for strong conditions for such schemes, many felt that the provisions were too restrictive. When dealing with roads, which are so critical to communities, a balance needs to be found between the need for public control and private sector investment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EA major issue that concerned many in local government and the private sector was the requirement for approval at a very late stage in the process. There was concern that this would discourage investment because there would be an unwillingness to invest in developing projects if there was no certainty that approval would come. The committee has arrived at a very good pragmatic solution. Early conditional approval can now be given after the Minister has considered core criteria, such as whether the project would contribute to the purpose of the bill, and the outcome of any public consultation. Conditional approval can then be issued. This means approval can come before tenders are issued, and the successful tenderers can know with certainty what preconditions they need to meet before beginning tolling or entering into a concession agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe committee has also ensured that the decision-making criteria for tolling and concession agreements are as consistent as possible. There are, however, some unique features of such arrangements that need to be considered. The bill as introduced made it clear that tolling could be used only for new roads. Existing roads could be included only if there was an engineering reason for them to be included. Many submitters argued that tolling should be possible on existing roads, and some went so far as to say that widespread tolling should be allowed, such as the congestion pricing in London. The committee, quite sensibly, concluded that allowing such schemes would go well beyond the policy of the bill. The Government has some sympathy with the argument that more funding tools should be made available. To this end, the Government is working with the Auckland region to investigate such approaches and would look to include any new mechanism in future legislation, if required. The committee has, none the less, recommended that there should be some additional flexibility to include existing roads where the existing road is physically or operationally integral to the new road. The toll revenue, though, must be used for the new road. The committee has also made it clear that emergency vehicles should be exempted from tolls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EAs far as concession agreements are concerned, there was concern that the bill was too inflexible in how it treated risk. For example, the public sector was precluded from compensating the private sector if traffic forecasts were not met. Such issues are normally matters for commercial negotiation and have been removed. However, a broader provision has been included that will not deter future options of sustainable transport solutions. The committee has recommended that leasing be allowed for concession agreements. The bill as introduced allowed only licence agreements. Leasing is a more familiar instrument for investors, so this change will give them greater certainty. The successful Melbourne City link project uses leasing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003ESome submitters argued that the proposed term of 35 years should be extended. The committee was satisfied that a term of this length was suitable for most purposes. It has, however, recommended that the term can be extended for 10 years if there are exceptional circumstances two-thirds of the way through the concession agreement\u2019s term. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIn summary, the select committee has made some very, very good changes to the bill, and I recommend to the House that it now be read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u00224bde772e0ad94850b11dd300010488e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bde772e0ad94850b11dd300010488e9\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E This is a bill of lost opportunities, but I will come to that in a moment. I want to start by wishing Helen Duncan, the chairperson of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, all the best. I know she would want to be here today to speak on the bill. The submissions heard on the bill agreed almost unanimously with the principles in the legislation. However, they almost unanimously disagreed with the detail. Submitter after submitter said that they supported the bill in principle but that its detail meant it would not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EIt became apparent during the select committee process that we could make this bill work. I wrote to the Minister and offered the National Opposition\u2019s support in working with the Government to deliver legislation to the House that would enable Auckland\u2019s roading issues to be dealt with, public-private partnerships to grow, and roading issues in other parts of the country to be dealt with by a combination of road tolls, public-private partnerships, congestion charging, and allowing Transit to borrow. The Minister and the Government chose to ignore that letter. They did not respond to it, at all. Instead, they chose to ditch the United Future party\u2014transport was one of the major issues for that party when it came to the House\u2014and cuddle up with the Greens to deliver back to the House a Labour-Green bill that every group that came to the committee has since said will not work. The Automobile Association said the bill would not deliver. Business New Zealand made the same sorts of comments\u2014namely, that the bill fails to solve the problems. The Auckland chamber of commerce said the bill is a wasted opportunity by the Government. The Road Transport Forum worried that the bill would not deliver on the Government\u2019s roading objectives, at all. The Employers and Manufacturers Association in Auckland was damning in its criticism of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EEvery group lined up and said that the bill would not work, including the Minister. The Minister said in the House today that it became apparent that we want to give Auckland a whole range of new options to be able to develop its roading network, but it is not in the bill. That is why a joint action group was set up to work in parallel with the legislation and report early next year. If we are to believe the Minister, the Government, which just a few weeks ago voted against National Opposition amendments to allow for widespread congestion pricing, and no doubt will vote against them in the House in a few weeks\u2019 time\u2014the Minister nods that it will\u2014will come back in March, full of spring in the new year, and vote for them. It will decide that the joint action group will deliver what this bill cannot deliver. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI tell people in Auckland that this legislation is a lost opportunity. The Government is stringing them along. Aucklanders need to know that this Government is engaged in a cynical exercise of stringing them along and trying to make them believe that the same Ministers and the same Labour Party members who will vote against solutions in this House over the next few weeks will miraculously change their minds and vote for those amendments in March. We do not believe that. More important, as I travelled around Auckland, I noted that the vast majority of groups in Auckland did not believe it, either. This bill has been years in the pipeline. The Minister\u2019s predecessor, the Hon Mark Gosche, promised it 4 years ago. He promised it would solve Auckland\u2019s problems, but it does nothing of the sort. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI shall talk about some areas where the bill lets Auckland and New Zealand down. It will not deliver Transmission Gully for Wellingtonians. No one believes it will. In fact, the other weekend Darren Hughes told people to stop whingeing. He told Wellingtonians to stop whingeing about Transmission Gully, that there was not the money to do it, and that the money was going to Auckland. The people on the Kapiti Coast are still struggling with that. The bill will not deliver Transmission Gully. It will not deliver any public-private partnership, other than the Tauranga Harbour Bridge. We have gone through so much and have listened to so many submissions for nothing. The groups that looked at the bill when it was introduced said it would not work. They went to Mr Swain who told them to make strong, robust submissions and the Government would change the bill. The groups made strong, robust submissions and the Government did not change it. Mr Swain decided to cuddle up with the Greens rather than change the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI am worried about some other parts of the bill. The international financiers who came before the committee said that 35 years would not work, and when we talked with them after their submission they said that 35 years, plus 10, would not work. Why will the Government not listen to them? Why will the Government not listen to the people who are financing projects around the world? When they say this will not work, what does the Government not understand about that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI am worried about a bill that defines land transport as coastal shipping, so that land transport money can be diverted into coastal shipping subsidisation. The foreign flag bearer that comes to New Zealand from the Panama Canal and picks up some freight and carts it around New Zealand on its way back to South America will be subsidised by the New Zealand taxpayers from their road transport fund. They do not think their petrol money is subsidising foreign-owned shipping companies. Why have Labour and the Greens insisted on that being in this bill? Why have Labour and the Greens consistently voted against a cap being included in the bill to stop the raiding of petrol money, so that a maximum of only 10 percent can go into public transport? Labour and the Greens have consistently voted against that. They want an unlimited amount of road transport money available for things such as public transport. Road users will be appalled when they find out that that is what will be happening to their money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis bill has been a lot of effort to get a second bridge in Tauranga. That is the total upshot of this bill. I say to the House today that the National Party will be moving a series of amendments through the Committee stage\u2014the sorts of amendments that the Minister is whispering around Auckland he will support next year. We will test the Government and the Auckland Labour members to see whether they are prepared to vote for the solutions\u2014solutions that the Mayor of Auckland tells us Labour members are pretty keen on in private. We will see whether they are pretty keen on them in public. We will see whether they are prepared to vote for them in public. I do not think they will. I think that Labour Party members are saying one thing in Auckland and a different thing in Parliament. The Auckland Labour members will be tested on that over the next few weeks. I think that will become a test for this Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe lack of transport infrastructure is hindering economic growth in this country\u2014nowhere more so than in Auckland. The Government had an opportunity to go with any political party other than the Greens. National, New Zealand First, ACT, and United Future are at one on fixing that problem. Labour and the Greens are committed, not to solving the problem but to making it worse.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022 data-id=\u00223ada4b03dd0549b5905b8052d3c210ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ada4b03dd0549b5905b8052d3c210ae\u0022\u003EHon MARK GOSCHE (Labour\u2014Maungakiekie):\u003C/span\u003E I congratulate the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, which I now chair, on the work it has done on this bill. Like the two previous speakers, I would like to acknowledge the work of Helen Duncan. I hope she is listening today to the outcome of the work that the committee has done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to be able to follow a National Party speaker on a Land Transport Management Bill. Most of the National members are not old enough to remember National\u2019s last attempts when it was in power, but I have not forgotten. When I became the Minister of Transport I found a dusty room, full of rubbish called \u201CBetter Transport, Better Roads\u201D. That document was vilified by everybody in this country, and there is only one brave soul on the Opposition side of the House who is still promoting it. He has been suspended from the National Party, but he was still brave enough to get out there this year and tell Auckland people, at a meeting I went to on the North Shore, that that is the real answer. The National Party people who turned up to that meeting did not have a prayer; they did not have anything to say about transport to those interested local body people. Why? Because, as with everything else, the National Party does not yet have a policy on transport. National members say we should give them some time. They have been working on it for 15 years, and they still have not come up with any answers\u2014not a sausage. We can see that, up and down the country, after 9 long years of that party and a few of its cohorts being in power. There was a transport deficit in this country that people are still seeing and still bemoaning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis Government, in 4 years, already has a proud history and track record of overcoming many of those transport problems. What were they? Mr Key, who will speak for the National Party, will ask why we do not have efficiency right at the front of this bill. That will be in his speech. I offered some advice to Mr Key at the select committee. I said he should go to Northland and to the East Cape. This is where Governments told people to plant trees, in order to become rich. Those people were told the trees would grow to maturity in about 20-odd years, would then be cut down and taken away, and the people would make a fortune. Well, the theory was correct. The problem was that the previous National Government neglected to build any roads on which to transport the logs that were cut down in Northland and on the East Coast. Why? Because efficiency ruled National\u2019s so-called transport policy. The only way to get a road built in the Northland and East Cape areas would have been if enough people had died on those roads. That was how that Government decided on the funding of roads\u2014enough deaths on a road equalled a new road. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EIf we went to Auckland, where I live, we could not travel very fast because the roads had become more and more clogged, with 5 percent more traffic going on them every year. What was National\u2019s solution? Nobody had died. People could not move because of the congestion, so they were safe, and that Government said it was sorry, but it was not going to build a single project in Auckland in 9 years\u2014and it did not, except for a road for Murray McCully called the Albany to Puhoi realignment (ALPURT), to enable him to get to his Northland bach. That is why National built that road; it was pure pork-barrel politics. The previous National Government built that motorway to get people out of Auckland, but forgot to join it to anything so that they could get to it. People had to spend an hour moving through Auckland\u2019s snail-like traffic to get up to the brand new motorway built to enable Murray McCully to get to his holiday home in the north. Efficiency will be what the National Party says is missing from the purpose of this bill. I invite Mr Key to get out there, do his job, and head a little bit north, where he will see what efficiency did to sensible decision-making. It was overwhelmed by the madness of the cost-benefit ratio system, which made no sense to anybody in this country except for the National Party politicians, who were too lazy to get on and design anything different. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EWhen I became the Minister of Transport, I went around the country and listened to people. A Minister of Transport who listened! That was a new thing for local government and transport interests. They had not had one who did that for so long, with Mr Williamson and Mrs Shipley, that it was a very rare event to have somebody who was prepared to listen. Out of that listening came the policy that has been put into this bill by the current Minister and is now before the House. It will deal with a great many of the problems that transport faces and that New Zealanders face throughout this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAgain, National rubbishes the fact that some money will be spent on public transport. When National was in power, public transport funding was frozen for 5 years, at a particular point in time. Why? Because the National Party\u2019s position was: \u201CPublic transport is going to be a small difference and the projects that are on the books are very expensive.\u201D Since we became the Government, public transport funding in this country has doubled. We now have about 25 percent growth in the use of public transport. That is people on a bus, on a train, or on a ferry\u2014not in a car, clogging up a motorway. Opposition members say it is terrible that we are spending money on something other than a road. Well, they would have people clogging up the motorways and moving nowhere, rather than have the very valuable transport corridors in Wellington and Auckland used to take significant numbers of people and put them in trains instead. It is far friendlier to the environment, and much better for the business traffic that is trying to get around those cities, if more people use public transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EAccording to the National Party, it is a crime to use the money to fund public transport and ease congestion. Where else in the world is that approach taken? Absolutely nowhere but in New Zealand, under the National Party\u2019s policy. Members should talk to the private sector operators who are running public transport. Stagecoach, one of the big bus companies that operates internationally, cannot believe the growth it is achieving in Auckland, because it is so much better than anywhere else in the world. The company\u2019s chairman regularly comes down here and is just open-mouthed at the results his company is getting, in terms of carrying more people. More New Zealanders are using public transport. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing! The most common-sense approach to a roading system that is clogged is to get more people off it and using an alternative. That is far more efficient than to have everybody sit in cars all on their own, clogging up a motorway and polluting the environment. We have to offer choice, and that is what this bill is about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis bill is about looking for the sensible choices, and the sensible choices are, in many cases, roads. That is why in Auckland right now, there is motorway building like we have not been seen in Auckland for 15 years. The major choke point of the Auckland motorway system, the \u201CSpaghetti Junction\u201D area, is actually having work done on it. It had been left absolutely devoid of any plans\u2014no money; nothing\u2014by the previous National Government. National just said it was too hard to fix that choke point, so it would go and build another road somewhere in the rest of the country, because somebody had had a terrible accident on it. It was too hard for National to figure out how to solve that curly problem in the middle of Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThe people down on the Auckland waterfront said to me that they need a motorway to go down to the port. At the moment it stops about 3 kilometres short of it. That motorway junction is well under way; Mr Swain opened a major piece of it not so long ago. Trying to go to Auckland airport via the Puhinui way, through Papatoetoe, was a big problem. What is there now is a very new and very, very efficient interchange, which was badly needed. The plans for Auckland are many. Opposition members ask: \u201CWhat about the rest of the country?\u201D. Bill English said that if Aucklanders want more roading projects in Auckland, then they should pay for them. He did not say that 5 years ago; he said that last February. So the message from Mr Sowry rings very loudly in Aucklanders\u2019 ears, compared with his leader\u2019s snub to Auckland ratepayers and taxpayers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EI see that on the weekend a wonderful road between Tauranga and Rotorua, cutting 30 minutes from the travel time, has just been opened. The local mayors applauded that as a wonderful project. So I say to Mr Brown that this Government is looking after that part of the country. This Government has also listened to the people of the Waikato, who said the cart track we have, called State Highway 1, between Auckland and Waikato is no good. The previous National Government left it for so much time, while so many people died on it, that it looked more like a cemetery than a State highway. Now I drive from Auckland to Waikato and hear all the grizzles about the roadworks that go on for kilometre after kilometre. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill. It is practical, and it backs up the Government\u2019s actions with a law that will take us into the future. I congratulate the Minister and the select committee on their fine work. This is a forward-looking bill, and is balanced in its outlook. It takes common-sense solutions, and it will be good for all New Zealanders long into the future. When that Better Transport, Better Roads document is in a museum as an oddity, this Government will be seen as having got on, done the work, and listened to the people in local government and in the transport industry who knew what they were talking about. As a result, we have a very fine bill for this Parliament to pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002261e7321402ee4e0e9bcb437fa388a64f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261e7321402ee4e0e9bcb437fa388a64f\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me start by expressing on behalf of New Zealand First our sympathies to Helen Duncan, and we wish her all the best. I know she would have liked to be here to debate this bill as it has been reported back, but she cannot. So on behalf of my colleagues I express our best wishes to her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI am disappointed in Mr Gosche\u2019s speech. As a former Minister, he did not touch on this bill at all. He told members what the National Government did not do\u2014he was correct\u2014and he told us what he has done, but it does not apply to this bill. This bill is about generic road tolling: establishing road tolls wherever, whenever. This bill is not about what National did not do. Although it might possibly address some of the shortfall, it is not aimed at the National Government in particular. It is aimed at establishing road tolls wherever, whenever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will not support a generic road-tolling regime, nor will average New Zealanders. They do not want to see road tolls established here, there, and everywhere. But, I do not think that that will occur, if one examines the bill. I think this is a phoney bill about generic road tolling. The only area where I believe there is a strong chance of a road toll being established is in Tauranga, the city where I come from. There will be a road toll on the harbour bridge, where only about a year ago, it was taken off. Now it will go back on, on the harbour bridge link project. That link project qualifies by all the criteria to be a State-funded road\u2014a State highway. Indeed, Transit executive management recommended to the board that the project become a State highway, and should therefore be funded out of petrol taxes, but the Transit board refused. The board overruled its management, it refused, and it will not give one reason why it will not recommend that the road become a State highway. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis bill is setting up Tauranga for road tolling in a most unfair manner. I am disappointed that Larry Baldock is supporting the bill. He is telling the people of Tauranga to support road tolls\u2014never mind that the road should be a State highway and should qualify for State funding. He is saying: \u201CSupport road tolls. If you do not, you are a whinger.\u201D Larry Baldock is telling people not to be whingers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b61b15d453e4af597dae5228ccf4834\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Just giving them a choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0ed59367fde4abda66e79acc9f2dc65\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Baldock that they should not have to have a choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ced9d61d5e104cb18688cae0cf5f1109\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Hobson\u2019s choice, it\u2019s called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231a12f75ab864660bf62c5f2147e0f2c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Hobson\u2019s choice\u2014that is what it is called. The harbour bridge link project in Tauranga should be funded\u2014all $140 million of it\u2014by petrol tax, road-user charges, and what have you. The people of Tauranga should not be asked to pay again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere is an old saying: \u201CDo it once, do it properly.\u201D This bill does not do anything once, and it certainly does not do it properly. What we should be doing in this country now is identifying the total cost that is needed to bring our roads up to par; identify the areas and identify the total cost of what is required to bring them up to par. There are various estimates on this, ranging from $6 billion through to $10 billion or even $11 billion. New Zealand First believes we should look at borrowing the funding to address the issue in a meaningful manner and in a reasonable time frame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is absolutely disgraceful for the Prime Minister to come out and say that Transmission Gully is 10 years away before it can even be contemplated. That is absolutely disgraceful. I recognise, as Mr Gosche appeared to state, that the roads in this country have been starved of funds for years. Motor-vehicle levies have been used for the wrong reasons. Eighteen and a half cents per litre of petrol goes into the consolidated account. The consolidated account is almost awash with money, but the motorist is paying 18.5c per litre of petrol into the consolidated account. That is something like $600 million a year\u2014very close to $600 million a year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDespite what the Minister said, I believe, the other day in the House, petrol consumption is going up in this country. Vehicle numbers are going up and, notwithstanding that the modern vehicle is more economic in fuel use, petrol consumption is going up. So there are more and more payments of 18.5c per litre, per year being collected by the Government. Some of that money should go back to the road users\u2014some of it. Eventually, it is our belief that all of it should go back, but in the initial instance, to address the shortfall and the problems we have in roading, we should be borrowing money. We should be funding that debt to get our roads up to speed and up to the level that the motorist requires. People are dying almost every weekend every year on the roads in New Zealand, because road design is not up to par. The roads in this country are not adequate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe have 92,000 kilometres of roading in New Zealand, and only 60-plus percent is tar-sealed. Mark Gosche referred to a new road going between Tauranga and Rotorua. That is not a new road; it is a stretch of road that has just been tar-sealed. It has been waiting for tar-seal for years. It has been progressively tar-sealed, bit by bit, and been waiting for years to be completed. The car is here to stay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebd6577f767b4302acb2f8be568c1d09\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b55742849c14444bdc96791740b34fe\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister disbelieves that. Does he think that because he is going to pay $3 million to people to get on their bicycles or go walking\u2014as the Greens want\u2014people will get out of their cars in any meaningful numbers? I tell the Minister that if they do there will be more people killed on the roads than ever. There will be more pedestrians and cyclists killed right away if they are put to walking and cycling. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e8db19d16834513ae4cea61ca607317\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re certainly not going to use the trains in Auckland.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228be6a41d5c86451db9d8aa32ffe9e41e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is another issue, but, for the short term, we have to address the issue of roading in this country. In my view, we should have motorways going the whole length of the country. Motorists pay, and we should have a motorway from Auckland through to Wellington, and southwards. Indeed, there should be other motorways crossing the country, both in the North Island and the South Island. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ERoading, and roading costs, have been seen as a cash cow to fund other ventures. Now we can afford it, so we should be putting more back into roading. We cannot do it in one hit by using the petrol fund money, but we can borrow the money and use the petrol fund money to pay the debt. In a relatively few years we could pay off some major projects in this country. The Minister knows it. That is why he is bringing in another bill to address Auckland issues. In another bill, I believe, he will announce something in December or early in the New Year. He knows that this bill does not go anywhere near addressing Auckland issues. He is nodding. This is just a sop to let people know that he is trying to do something. The only thing that is likely to result from this bill\u2014and if I have my way it will not\u2014is another toll being put on the Tauranga bridge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe Minister had to have a provision inserted in this bill\u2014I think it is part of clause 53\u2014to say that tolling can now apply in exceptional circumstances, when there is no alternative route. The legislation when first brought to the House was quite firm\u2014there had to be an alternative route. But now it is weakened to the degree that in exceptional circumstances an existing route can be tolled, whether or not there is an alternative route. This bill will result\u2014and I believe it is the Minister\u2019s intention\u2014in a new toll being imposed on the Tauranga Harbour Bridge. Let me say to members that New Zealand First will oppose that all the way. I do not know how Margaret Wilson will front up and say she is supporting this bill, when she tried to claim a lot of credit for taking off the last toll. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022981fa0235c77453a8af17c356a2b17d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022981fa0235c77453a8af17c356a2b17d1\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party is totally opposed to this bill, and I am surprised that when the Minister stood up, he did not more effusively thank the Green Party for its support in writing this bill. It is one of the worst-kept secrets in Wellington that Heather Simpson and Roland Sapsford were the real authors of this bill. Roland Sapsford is the Greens\u2019 chief policy person, and works directly for Jeanette Fitzsimons. His title is \u201CAdvisory Group Coordinator\u201D, according to one of his business cards, which also has the Parliamentary Service crest on it. He is also one of the campaigners who are particularly against the Wellington inner-city bypass, and he is a spokesperson for the pressure group Campaign for a Better City. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI believe that Paul Swain has his heart in the right place in respect of this bill, but his problem has been that many of the details in it were nutted out when Mr Gosche was Minister of Transport. My understanding is that officials were told by Ms Simpson what to write, and if they gave advice that was not welcomed, that advice was either ignored or they were told to go away and try again. I also understand that Mr Sapsford was involved in the process all the way through, and had a strong involvement in the bill\u2019s development. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EDespite all the work from the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and all the submissions, we now see that efficiency is only one of the criteria to be used when roads are planned. But whose money are we using here? It is money obtained through road-user charges. A sum of $2 billion a year is collected from road-user charges, and at present not even all of that is used on roads. This bill will not add one new kilometre of motorway to the existing network. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWhen this bill was announced and people were asked about the eastern motorway in Auckland, Judith Tizard asked why that should proceed just so that people who lived in Pakuranga and Howick could have an extra half-hour in bed in the morning. Where does that arrogance ring a bell? It is the same sort of breath-taking arrogance we had from that Associate Minister of Transport when people complained about their rates being increased to fund railways that no one will ever go on because they will not go anywhere near the North Shore. She told those people to sell their houses and buy new homes. When there was an outcry that vehicle emissions testing would raise the costs of warrants of fitness, she told them to buy a new car. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAs members have already pointed out, the other issue is that this tolling will apply only to Tauranga. That is a classic example of the return to parish-pump politics, which we got rid of years ago. It is one of the ways Labour has used to get support from United Future, and it has used this bill to keep the Greens happy. Under this bill, tolling of existing networks will be allowed only in exceptional circumstances. If the situation in Auckland at the moment is not exceptional, I do not know what is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EMr Swain talked about a new mechanism in future legislation that will solve Auckland\u2019s traffic problems. Why not bring it into this bill right now, Mr Swain? He has had a golden opportunity to solve something that was started 30 years ago. That is when the western bypass and link-ups through Avondale and across the top were put on the planning board. They have boasted about starting on \u201CSpaghetti Junction\u201D, which has just added further to the confusion. Instead of developing \u201CSpaghetti Junction\u201D, the western bypass should have been developed\u2014then we would have gone somewhere not just to solving the problem of the loss of economic growth in Auckland, but the loss of opportunity for business. Business people in Auckland, especially out in eastern areas like Tamaki, a big commercial area, can get out and do business only between 10 o\u2019clock in the morning and 2 o\u2019clock in the afternoon. The rest of the day is destroyed because they are sitting in those huge parking lots we call motorways. That situation contributes to vehicle emissions and dirty air in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ERoad-user charges will now also be used for coastal shipping. That will mean a redistribution of taxes\u2014again collected from the motorist\u2014to subsidise New Zealand\u2019s shipping organisations, which are crying because they have been subjected to more competition. Those taxes will be used to create more jobs for wharfies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThis bill will not deliver private sector involvement. As I said, we had the opportunity to get Auckland\u2019s motorway solutions addressed in the same way they have been addressed in Sydney and Melbourne. We heard from international financiers like Macquarie Bank, which asked for the 35-year limit on concession agreements to be flexible\u2014sometimes less than 35 years, sometimes more. But what did we hear? We heard the Green member\u2014who does not even like cars and who has a huge bias against them\u2014declare that to him 35 years was ample. That person is someone who makes jewellery for a living, but who knows more than Macquarie Bank about what is flexible or not in terms of a concession agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAs the Hon Roger Sowry said, we listened to all those submitters who came before the select committee thinking that they would make a difference. Mayors from Auckland appeared and gave very emotional submissions. They were people who cared about the people in their city, and were trying to do something about the problems. There were submissions from people out in the country, like those in the Wairarapa where there are huge problems with the funding of roads. Why did we even bother?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E We now see that the Government will set up a new company called Track Co. We already know that there will be an exclusive deal for Toll Holdings to operate on the rail-track that was purchased by the Government. Under this bill, Toll Holdings will be subsidised by motorists to prop up Track Co. That will directly benefit an Australian company that has signed an exclusive deal with the Government to operate on the rail-track. Motorists will get nothing from this bill, and if we look at the consultation process, we see that everyone from M\u0101ori to the Historic Places Trust has to be consulted. That is what the Greens get in return for supporting Labour on the Supreme Court Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons has proudly said that as a result of this bill, \u201Ctransport\u201D in New Zealand will no longer mean just the car and the motorway. The strategy means that rail, bus, ferry, barge, bike and footpath gain equal status. As Peter Brown said, the car is here to stay, and we must get used to it. Green parties around the world have recognised that. Three years ago in 2000, the Financial Times reported that the Green Party in Germany had embraced the car. I quote: \u201CAfter years battling against motorways, petrol-guzzling motorists, and anything that slows up a bicycle, Germany\u2019s environmentalist Green Party has taken a step towards ending its rage against cars.\u201D Here is the most important bit: the strategy paper from that Green Party went on to acknowledge that, \u201Cfor women, the car means security on the streets at night and the possibility of combining family and career. For the old and handicapped, it is a synonym for independent movement.\u201D That is why there is such a bias against the car, because it symbolises freedom and people\u2019s ability to choose. The Greens hate anything to do with freedom of choice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EMark Gosche said it all. He could not defend the bill at all\u2014all he did in his speech was attack National. Well, attack is the best method of defence. Mark Gosche said that ACT did not want money going into public transport. ACT does not mind money going into public transport, as long as it is money from people who want to use public transport. But why should motorists be forced to fund coastal shipping, cycleways, walkways, and railways they do not use, when they cannot even plan their journeys across Auckland so that they arrive on time? This bill is a dog, and ACT will not be supporting it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b4289f3fa6c74e44859432e0a4d79463\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b4289f3fa6c74e44859432e0a4d79463\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Much is made in this place of the issues that divide us and our points of difference. The Greens have been pleased to work in tandem with the Government on this bill. It is a good piece of legislation, it is a modest piece of legislation, and it is a modern piece of legislation. It is not legislation that is way out or somehow beyond the pale. It is an attempt to bring New Zealand\u2019s transport into line with that of those places that have managed to keep people and products moving and to look after the health and well-being of their communities and their environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe Land Transport Management Bill is a key component in addressing New Zealand\u2019s land transport strategy. It finds support from such diverse groups as the Council of Trade Unions, the Business Council for Sustainable Development, and the public health authorities. The bill sets out a framework for establishing safe, sustainable, integrated, responsive transport systems, and we are pleased to support it. We are pleased to see it here. In a planet that is living way beyond the capacity of the environment to sustain, this legislation is culture-shifting legislation and makes better solutions possible. It has become very clear that we have not been able to solve our transport problems simply by building more roads\u2014no communities have. They may work briefly, but if building roads worked, London, Los Angeles, or wherever we like to look\u2014indeed, we need look no further than Auckland or even my own home city of Nelson\u2014where roads have been built for many, many years now, would be free of traffic problems. Clearly, they are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe have been pleased to be able to be part of changing some of the more complicated elements of the bill. An example of this is the simplification of the consultation procedures. Local communities must have a say in the transport solutions for their communities. The inclusion of local government consultation processes is an important part of that, and they are included in the bill. People need to be consulted, but not re-consulted, and if an issue has been covered once and the community has had a chance of having a say on it, that should be enough. We are pleased to see that the consultation procedures are robust but not excessive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EAmongst some of the more contentious issues in the bill is the provision for demand management. When Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 traffic management member\u2019s bill came before the select committee, its detractors labelled it as anti-business. They claimed that it was an infringement of their rights. In fact, most businesses operating in a businesslike way will examine their issues from both sides of the spectrum. They will ask whether there are ways they can minimise the problem rather than simply throwing money at it, and, in fact, that is what transport management is about. We are looking for the bill to provide measures to cater for problems that affect us, by not simply throwing money at them but asking whether there are ways we can minimise them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWithout exception, when the submitters who said that Jeanette Fitzsimons\u2019 bill was anti-business were asked whether they were seriously telling us that, when they are sitting on a motorway going nowhere, and going there extraordinarily slowly in Auckland, when they are surrounded by products and people moving just as slowly and getting nowhere very, very slowly, there are not occasions when they would rather that some of those people had found another way of getting there, they said they were not opposed to that, but they just did not want to be regulated. I said: \u201CWell, if we get the regulation bit out of the way, what if we can make those other choices more attractive? What if those other choices were more cost-effective?\u201D. Without exception they said: \u201CWell, yes, I guess if you can do that, that sounds reasonable.\u201D That is what land transport management is about. It is about managing demand. It is not simply about throwing roads at it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThis is not cutting-edge stuff. New South Wales and Western Australia have transport strategies that identify motorcar dependence as a major problem. Demand management is about addressing that problem, not by banning motorcars but by providing more attractive and cost-effective solutions that address not just meeting the needs of the transport disadvantaged\u2014that is, those who cannot drive, who choose not to drive, or who cannot afford to drive\u2014but providing choices for the movement of products and people, whoever they are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EHow will the Transfund programmes contribute to New Zealand\u2019s transport strategy and the intentions of the Land Transport Management Bill? They have to look beyond simply building roads and catering for cars, to solutions that meet the objectives of the bill and address the problems associated with our motorcar-obsessed society. The first problem is congestion. Simply building more roads inevitably encourages more cars. We have seen it in Auckland. We have seen people move to the end of the motorway, but their respite is brief. Bit by bit those roads become even more full, and the congestion in the inner city becomes even greater. The air pollution issue with cars is well established, and kills more people than accidents do. Water pollution due to the runoff from our roads is a major issue. There is the risk issue, in that the more cars we have, the more vulnerable people are on the roads. There is the health issue, which is not just about pollution but also about the sedentary lifestyles imposed on people who are brought up with the idea that the only way of getting to places is to climb into cars. We have to provide other choices. There is also the cost issue, in that motorcars are an extraordinarily expensive choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe bill sets out objectives that address those issues. They include to assist economic development, to assist safety and personal security, and to improve access and mobility. That is for all New Zealanders\u2014not just those who have motorcars but those who do not, or who are unable to drive. That affects all of us for some of our lives. Friends of mine say they like driving; I say, OK, so if they are sitting at home and their kids ring up at midnight from 20 miles away and say come and pick them up, do they say \u201CYippee!\u201D and climb into their car? I do not think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E Other objectives are to protect and promote public health, and to ensure environmental sustainability. Some folk were concerned at the failure to include efficiency in the objectives. We believe that efficiency will always be a factor, but are concerned at the likelihood that, if it became an overriding concern, it would undermine those other objectives in the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington spoke about Roland Sapsford. We all of us have advisers in this place, we all of us have experts to advise us, and Roland Sapsford is such a person. He has had long experience dealing with transport issues, and that is why we employ him in our office. That is a reasonable thing to do. I am a maker of jewellery; that is what I do. Deborah Coddington is a journalist. I do not think that undermines her right to be on that committee and to have an opinion. I just do not happen to agree with her opinion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EAm I opposed to motorcars? No, of course I am not, nor are the Greens. We recognise that our cities were designed around motorcars. Our cities are as big as they are because of motorcars. But getting them to be used in ways that are sustainable is an essential part of the management of them. The freedom to choose was an issue raised by Deborah Coddington. The Greens are in favour of choice, and this bill is in favour of choice. What it says is that before we build another road, we should examine the other choices. We should examine whether we can make public transport more attractive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI sat on a train from Waitakere into the city. I can tell members that I had to wait for half an hour at a derelict railway station without any seats because the shelter, about 100 metres away, had had the backside kicked out of it. The trains were grotty, and when I was looking to find out where to get off my train, I saw that all the signs had been graffitied over. I could not tell where I was. It seems to me that there are some fundamental, ordinary things that we can do to give people choices. That train was half an hour late, at 5 o\u2019clock at night, I might add. We need to make those choices more attractive and more reliable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe need to make sure, as well, that people can actually use their legs. Our young people are likely to die younger and to linger, whereas the present lot that are dying are dying older and are dying quickly. The next generation is likely to be larger, fatter, and to have type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease, and part of that is because they are brought up to travel everywhere in the motorcar. They do not walk. They do not cycle. For some of our trips, walking and cycling are reasonable options, they are healthier options, and they are less expensive options. We share the concerns of the entire House about the inability to move people and products around. This bill is an honest attempt to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac0bf8dd9a69419a8301127d77cf9417\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac0bf8dd9a69419a8301127d77cf9417\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It has been a long process since the draft legislation was presented to us last year, and it is satisfying to see the changes that have been made to the bill being debated in the House. United Future made the provision of alternative funding options for land transport a priority in our confidence and supply agreement, which stated that we would ensure that new transport legislation is introduced and passed that includes provision for alternative funding options to facilitate the accelerated development of new roading infrastructure. We did this because we are painfully aware, as all motorists in New Zealand are, that the roading network in this country has suffered from a lack of investment over the past two decades, at least, and that the traditional methods of funding are not going to be sufficient to allow New Zealand to catch up with what the Minister of Transport himself has called a major infrastructural deficit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAt this point I want to express my appreciation to the officials who have worked long and hard to support the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee in its consideration of the bill and the submissions made to it. Throughout the process I have appreciated the Minister\u2019s commitment to the legislation and his genuine concern to see the bill enacted as an enabling tool for the development of New Zealand\u2019s transport system. I thank the chair of the committee, Helen Duncan, and pray for her health at this stage, and wish her well. I thank also the submitters who took the time to put forward many excellent proposals for change within the rather limited original bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn fact, so many new ideas and concepts for funding have been raised that it has become apparent to the Government that a second bill will be needed to address further funding strategies to assist the Government to reach its goals by 2010, and United Future is looking forward to working with the Minister of Transport on that legislation. United Future is committed to the goal of achieving an integrated, safe, responsive, sustainable, and efficient land transport system for New Zealand. Our families, our businesses, our tourist visitors, and all our road users in general deserve Parliament giving its full attention to this priority of making our entire transport system, and particularly our road network, worthy of a developed nation in the 21st century. The bill that has returned to the House from the select committee is very different from that which was sent to the select committee after its first reading. It has been the subject of much discussion and negotiation, and although United Future has endeavoured to recommend improvements to the entire bill in response to submitter concerns, we have particularly concentrated on the parts that involve alternative funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ESubmitters raised concerns about the complicated, and possible duplication of, consultation, and I am satisfied that this issue has been improved considerably. Some are still critical and complain that there is still too much consultation, but I think it is time they discovered the reality of business and community life in this new, rapidly developing age in which we live. Although consultation can be costly and time consuming, when it is done properly it can also contribute to major savings in both time and money, as appeals and stalling tactics can be avoided if people feel that their opinions are respected and they are listened to at the beginning of a process. Aligning the consultation to local government processes has made very good sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI believe that the concerns expressed regarding the need for the Minister\u2019s prior approval of concession and tolling agreements have been satisfactorily addressed. The removal of the prohibition on the transfer of risk, and the opportunity for an extension for an additional 10 years, are welcome improvements. It is important to note that one of the greatest impediments to the development of private involvement in roading in New Zealand is our small population and relatively low traffic volumes, which do not make some projects as economically viable as they would be in Melbourne, Japan, or Singapore. However, despite this limitation, we believe there are projects that can attract meaningful partnerships between the public and private sectors, and this bill provides a workable framework for those agreements.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EMuch has been said by the Government and the Green Party about a multimodal approach to our transport system. We accept this and support it. It makes good sense to be promoting all forms of transportation, even walking and cycling, which can help reduce car dependency and improve public health. We support the need to develop public transport via rail and bus services, and we welcome the investigation into how coastal shipping can make a contribution to the movement of some freight in some locations. We acknowledge the work done by Green members on the bill, and we thank them for their hard work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe problem we have is that suggestions that can make some improvements are sometimes hailed as being the only solution\u2014that somehow we do not need more roads. It is at this point that we beg to differ in our approach. United Future does not accept that the New Zealand transport infrastructure deficit can be fixed by buses, trains, bikes, and barges alone. It needs massive investment over the next 10 years in building new roads and improving old roads, all over this country. We know that Auckland has needs, and that so do Tauranga, Southland, and Wellington. In fact, there is not a region in this country that would not benefit from more investment in roads and the roading infrastructure. We have State highways with inadequate passing lanes. We have one-lane bridges that are embarrassingly unsafe and antiquated in the 21st century. We have level crossings that still claim lives all too regularly, as well as corners, humps, and hollows that should have been fixed a long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EFor this reason, we are concerned that, in the attempt to address the problems facing us, Transfund should not use finance raised from road users to assist disproportionately the other modes of transport. I do not think that road users, both private and commercial, are too concerned if a few million dollars are spent on cycleways, or even on subsidising public transport, where they can see real, tangible results in the reduction of congestion. But we believe they have every right to be angry about further plundering of the National Land Transport Fund for projects that are driven more by ideology than practicality. Subsidy of alternative modes of transport for environmental or social reasons must be balanced by a requirement to consider efficiency, before the cost of those subsidies are taken from the pockets of New Zealand motorists. This year Transfund announced that, already, 12 percent of its revenue was being spent on non \u2013 roading-related expenditure, and we have some concerns about that trend developing even further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe welcome the amendment already adopted in clause 20(3)(c) that establishes that Transfund may approve funding if the activity contributes to Transfund\u2019s objective in an \u201Cefficient and effective manner\u201D. However, we do not believe that this is strong enough, and that is why I have tabled amendments to clause 3, \u201CPurpose\u201D, and clauses 70 and 79, which we will be debating in the Committee stage. Efficiency does not have to mean waiting for people to die on a particular road before that road gets fixed, as has been the practice in the past 20 years. It does not have to mean a return to the old cost-benefit ratio\u201D of the National Government. We can use common sense and find a balance between efficiency, environmental sustainability, and social responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EUnited Future\u2019s role in this legislation has two major objectives: firstly, that motorists\u2014both private and commercial\u2014cyclists, pedestrians, and passengers, including our 2 million visitors each year, would be able to move about this great country of ours as safely as possible and with the minimum of delays caused by congestion; secondly, that all freight, the produce of our economy, would be able to travel from supply to market in the most efficient manner possible. This would make a huge contribution to the goal of returning New Zealand to the top half of the OECD and providing our families with a better income upon which to live. United Future does not have a problem with subsidising one mode over another, if it can be clearly shown to result in greater efficiency for everyone concerned. That is why we ask members of this House to support the Supplementary Order Papers I have lodged for consideration in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003ESome members have made reference to the clauses relating to Tauranga and its proposal to build a second bridge. I am very proud to have been able to contribute to giving Tauranga people the choice to solve their traffic problems. Have we listened to submitters? Yes, we have. We had a steady stream of submitters from Tauranga\u2014the Tauranga District Council, the Western Bay of Plenty Council, Priority One Western Bay of Plenty, the chamber of commerce\u2014who all came and asked us to give them the tools so that they could fix the problem themselves. That is what this bill does, and I am happy to support it. United Future will support the second reading of this bill, and we look forward to the debate in the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00228722d9f7141a477d8c27e0c55337f188\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228722d9f7141a477d8c27e0c55337f188\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of the Land Transport Management Bill, and to support the effort made by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and by my ministerial colleagues. I think New Zealanders welcome the provisions in the bill, which produces, for the first time, a long-term, integrated, and coordinated approach to land transport funding and management. The key thing, which some speakers have already dwelt on, is that this bill is not solely about roads; it is about rail, it is about alternatives\u2014such as public transport\u2014and it is about the promotion of cycling and walking. The bill is long overdue and it will go a long way to addressing the inactivity and inaction that so many parts of our country\u2014in particular, the north\u2014have suffered from.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWhen we consider that this bill is not just about road transport, it is easier to understand the opposition that has already been articulated by the ACT party. Members may not know that the ACT party has considerable expertise in the road transport trucking area, as evidenced by its leader\u2019s membership of the board of Mainfreight. So I am rather disappointed that Mr Prebble has chosen not to come down to the Chamber to use that expertise to talk about that issue. Because of that focus on road transport, we can understand what sits behind the ACT policy to oppose wider alternatives in this area, but I would welcome a contribution from Mr Prebble in that regard. I am also pleased that he takes advantage of that directorship of Mainfreight to top up his meagre parliamentary salary, and I am sure he makes good use of that $35,000 per annum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022650334d3a3994da0b8cd497ca4e7d56e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What! How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed6ba52b46d646c0b429cd1a982eed65\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE\u003C/span\u003E: He receives $35,000 per annum for being a director of Mainfreight. The real reason that Mr Prebble is unable to share his wisdom and experience with us is that he is, at this time, rather than being in the House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8a571cad914e30b7b2863c93d6e5a7\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022e091997aaaf94e6296a7b8b78c52a71f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e091997aaaf94e6296a7b8b78c52a71f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to join with the Minister of Transport, the Hon Paul Swain, and the other members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee in wishing the previous committee chairperson, Helen Duncan, the best for a rapid and successful recovery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI would also like to take a moment to thank the officials who worked with the select committee as we went through the bill. It was a long and arduous process, and they served the committee well, if I may say so, in providing us with a great deal of information.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis is a very sad day for the New Zealand Parliament\u2014very sad indeed. We have a Minister who is trying to shepherd through the House the Land Transport Management Bill, a bill that he paraded up and down the country, telling people it would be a saviour for New Zealand roads, and especially Auckland roads. This bill will do anything but put road building in the fast lane. Aucklanders are frustrated because for 4 years we have heard the rhetoric from the Minister of Transport that this Government will fix the problem. Then he tried to strong arm the Auckland mayors; he did not want them to speak out against his bill\u2014at least, not publicly. Then he took months and months for submissions\u2014between photo shoots on any scrunty little corner he could find in the New Zealand countryside. Then, lo and behold, he did something we have not seen from a Minister for a very long time in this country: he went up and down the country and begged people to oppose his own bill! He said: \u201CWrite the strongest submissions you can against this load of\u201D\u2014I cannot say the word in this House, but I think Michael Cullen once said it in the form of phonetics. The Minister told people to write the strongest submissions they can against it. Why did he do that? Because he knew that the bill was hopeless legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt was so hopeless that he even gave up on it before it had come back to the House for its second reading, and he dispatched another group, the joint officials group, saying: \u201CAway you go, officials; see if you can tidy up another bill before this bill even comes back from the select committee.\u201D We all know that, up in Auckland, the joint officials group is working on the \u201Cde-Greened bill\u201D. This Land Transport Management Bill is quietly known as the \u201CGreen dream\u201D. It is Jeanette Fitzsimon\u2019s one success in this Parliament\u2014the \u201CGreen dream\u201D. I might add that this bill was introduced at the very time she introduced her own little adaptation on New Zealand\u2019s transport crisis\u2014the Road Traffic Reduction Bill, which would have introduced the modern-day equivalent of carless days. That probably comes as no surprise, when people look at the make-up of the Green representation on the select committee\u2014namely, Mike Ward, a man who does not even drive a car.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat does this Government know about transport? The only thing it knows about and does very well is giving out speeding tickets. Up and down the country there has been a 200 percent increase in the issuing of speeding tickets. But this Government does not know anything about fixing roads. It does not know anything about providing legislation to deliver more roads. The promise that this Minister once made that the Land Transport Management Bill would be the legislation that would allow highways to heaven is just la-la land stuff. What does this bill do? Does it attempt to tackle the three very important parts of road construction in this country? Does it tackle the consent process? No, it does not, and we will talk about that in a moment. Does it look at the structure of roading in Auckland or in New Zealand? No, it does not. Does it look at providing serious alternatives to funding? No, it does not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EOne might ask why structure would be important. Well, consider this for just one moment. In Auckland alone bodies such as Auckland Regional Transport Network Ltd, the Auckland Regional Council, seven territorial local authorities, Transit, Transfund New Zealand, and Infrastructure Auckland are working on transport, all with different agendas and all working in different locations. [Interruption] That is right; another piece, the \u201Cde-Greened Bill\u201D, is working on that\u2014I accept that. But that is what is happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhat has the Minister delivered with the Land Transport Management Bill? He has delivered living proof that coalition agreements matter more to this Government than fixing Auckland\u2019s transport crisis. The Government wants to forget about the billion dollars of lost economic activity that takes place because Auckland\u2019s roads are in crisis. It says: \u201CLet us not worry about that. Let us worry about making sure that, if it all turns to custard in 2005 and we need to bring the Greens back in, they will be very happy with us. That is what we are worried about with this legislation.\u201D It forgets about the employers who came to our select committee on their hands and knees and begged us to deliver legislation that would fix the crisis in Auckland. It forgets about the people who move to Auckland in their droves, from external and internal immigration; every day there are 49 new residents in our fair City of Auckland, bringing with them at least 25 cars. There is not a skerrick of hope of a solution in this bill\u2014not a hope in Hades.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThere is a crisis in Auckland, and the people of Auckland are worried. We have a motorway network that has been on the books since 1963, and needs fixing. It will cost a great deal of money. It could be $4 billion or $5 billion. Frankly, in my opinion, it could be north of $10 billion. It will be a huge amount of money. If the Land Transport Management Bill had been written in the right way, it could have provided a great opportunity to leverage that funding. It does not do that at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI make this prediction: just like the emperor with no clothes, Paul Swain will go down in New Zealand\u2019s living history as the Minister with no roads. It will be a sad conversation around the dinner table when Paul Swain goes home and his wife says: \u201CHoney, how were those 3 years that you were Minister of Transport?\u201D. He will look across with a long face and say: \u201CWell, it is no surprise we got thrashed in the 2005 election by the great new National Government. No wonder that was the case, because I will always be remembered as the Minister with no roads.\u201D What an indictment on 3 years of performance! He is a Minister who showed such great promise earlier on, when he was out there petitioning against his own bill. The things he was saying against his own bill were absolutely right. He knew they were right, but he was in caught in the haze of Green that descended upon his office. That is right; in between Morris dancers, Jeanette Fitzsimons came up with this bill and stuck it on his desk, and he followed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EMr Assistant Speaker may think I am just a National MP making a few comments\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc58293d612e48eaa978b8723a5b1abe\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He would be right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209550aea63594fa888defe927e3e8d36\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. I would encourage him to do a little research and listen to what business has said about this wonderful legislation. The Employers and Manufacturers Association said the bill is hopeless, Business New Zealand called it a red light for road users, the Auckland City Council said it is only half the toolbox, the Automobile Association said the overall effect will be bad news for the majority of New Zealanders, and the Road Transport Forum said a disgraceful Government is \u201Cputting through Parliament legislation deliberately designed to increase the extent to which they can fleece road users and waste more money, simply to buy the support of the Greens\u201D. What a sad situation!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EAs time is on the decline, I want to make some specific references to the public-private partnership provision contained in the bill. In particular, I say to the Minister what a wasted opportunity this has been. Worldwide, the evidence is hugely compelling of countries that have adopted correctly drafted legislation of this kind and have crafted a solution for their nations: Australia, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Germany, France, Switzerland have all used public-private partnership legislation. We know from a report I happen to have in my hand from Standard and Poor\u2019s that everything contained in the Land Transport Management Bill is the opposite of what those people are telling us. I have gone through this document late into the night to see exactly what the report is saying. It is saying we should not provide prescriptive legislation, we should not have a time frame of 35 years, we should not provide a free alternative, and we should allow existing routes to be tolled, because then we would have some surety and would get high-quality investors putting up real, private sector capital and providing a solution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis bill fails. It is a tragedy for the people of Auckland; it is a tragedy for the people of New Zealand. There is only one winner\u2014Jeanette Fitzsimons and the Green Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd3101220cc743c5b65d802b5411551e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd3101220cc743c5b65d802b5411551e\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E It is a great pleasure to follow \u201CJohnny Cash\u201D, the real Opposition spokesperson on transport. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277208b8056814c17ad101494d9952a83\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c6af38e6d184ff59be8da870da245f8\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Key\u2014sorry. We heard more during that speech about what the National Party stands for than we heard from the current temporary deputy leader of the National Party, who happens to hold the shadow transport portfolio. We heard more from Mr Key than we heard from Mr Sowry at the beginning of the debate. I welcome his contribution. I say to Mr Key that before the House is legislation, introduced by the Government of New Zealand, that will try to do something about land transport in New Zealand and not just talk and whinge and whine about it. That is what National members are doing in this debate. They had 9 years in Government to try to bring together a policy for New Zealand, to change the way land transport was designed and funded in New Zealand. They did absolutely nothing about it, despite the crocodile tears we hear in here today about the Auckland roading situation and about other areas of New Zealand. They wax lyrical about it, but they did not bring a single bill to Parliament to try to make a positive difference about it. National\u2019s only solution was the same solution for every problem, which is sell, sell, sell. That is the only thing they wanted to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EI congratulate the Minister of Transport, Paul Swain, on bringing this bill to the House. I think it will make a real difference. [Interruption] The member interjects: \u201CWill it make a difference in my electorate?\u201D. I believe this bill will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9549ea49a4447a78a5147edfa32add3\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: How is the economy you inherited?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221672c77b5ba5434db335e41c6d848cd3\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: The economy is doing very, very well. It has looked after the member, in particular, quite well. In my electorate I am looking forward to being able to use this bill as a tool for some of the infrastructure developments that we want to see in the Greater Wellington region. Mention has been made of Transmission Gully. I believe absolutely that this bill brings us closer to Transmission Gully, not further away. It gives us the chance now to get together with the Wellington region and to work out a proposal to try to get funding for the road. But it will be difficult. Greater Wellington will have to lead on that. But we have a problem: not all of the Wellington region agrees with the road, but we have to try to make sure we build the support for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003ESo I invite other members of Parliament to be positive in the debate and try to make a difference on it so we can get the road built, rather than just have the whingeing and the negativity, which will not make a difference. We might even invite list members to be part of that. We might invite list members who live in the Wellington region to flick a switch and come up with an idea, rather than the constant kind of criticism that we are getting. Wellington\u2019s future will succeed only if we are all working together. I welcome the public-private partnerships that are part of the bill. It is a very good thing to have that in the law as a kind of innovative solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWhen I talk about being positive, it does mean that Winnie Laban in Mana, Peter Dunne in Ohariu-Belmont, the Kapiti Coast District Council and the Porirua City Council, and Greater Wellington as a regional council, have to build that support more broadly within our region to make sure we can build those roads. This is a good bill, because it gives us a chance to get that done. I welcome it, and I know that the Minister of Finance will be putting in the appropriate funding in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf9d55ed594944419dd95f185f53161b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf9d55ed594944419dd95f185f53161b\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That was a wonderful example of the member not speaking with his Minister of Finance before opening his mouth. First, I would like to acknowledge Helen Duncan, the chairman of the select committee handling this bill. I would like to join my fellow MPs from New Zealand First in wishing her all the best. I found her to be a very fair chairman during the select committee, and we appreciate all the help she gave us. I would also like to thank the officials for all the work that they put into this bill. They have done a wonderful job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAs far as the bill is concerned, it really will not do anything for the congestion in Auckland or the economy, which really is based largely in Auckland. A billion dollars is lost to the economy because of the congestion around Auckland. Goods cannot be transported throughout the country, because when they arrive in Auckland they cannot be offloaded and transported easily. Sure, that benefits other parts of the country\u2014Tauranga, for instance, and that is fine\u2014but Auckland, and the economy around Auckland, is suffering badly. I would like to look at one particular area\u2014that is, the Albany to Puhoi realignment (ALPURT). This bill has set ALPURT back.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e22b8591be5c43c295e525ff681081cc\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Where is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022620709a3cc6b4922b67e00953d56cf4f\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: The ALPURT project is up in Orewa, north of Auckland. ALPURT has all of the resources in place to go ahead, and should have been completed by December of this year. I repeat that: it should have been completed by December this year. The agreement with Orewa was that the termination of the existing motorway would come to an end, and the motorway would be taken out of the middle of Orewa and moved on to the ALPURT extension. That will not happen, and we now believe that Transit has applied for an extension of not just 1 or 2 years, but 7 years for ALPURT. That is because it has now discovered that it can toll it. By tolling it, it throws out all of the consents, and the consultation that has been in place right up until now, and the project has to go back to be relitigated and consulted on for the wider community because there has to be an alternate route. That route was never consulted on during the original process. Tolls are the bane of that project, and because tolling is seen as a means of funding that road, it will be set back a lot further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EFunding should have been available for this stretch of motorway. It would have taken the traffic out of Orewa, as was promised, by December of this year had this Government released the petrol tax and the road-user charges. The Government has put so much of those charges away into the consolidated account. In fact, the Government even put a 4.7c a litre tax right throughout the country to pay for Auckland\u2019s roads. I ask the Government where that 4.7c a litre went, because it certainly has not gone to Auckland\u2019s roads. The Government needs to answer that question. The rest of the country is suffering because it is paying extra money, supposedly to go into Auckland roads, but it is not going there. I ask the Government to answer this question: where are the taxes going, and why is it putting so much tax away into the consolidated account? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003ERoads and the motorway networks throughout the country, and in particular around Auckland, have been underfunded for decades, simply because the taxes have not been used on the roads properly. There has been an unwillingness of successive Governments to use the taxes for other things outside of roading and public transport. What is more, there has been a failing of successive Governments to plan long term. Auckland roads were originally planned nearly 40 years ago, but the funding and the resources were never planned with that. This bill will not provide that funding or those resources. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIt is suggested that the funding should be applied for on an annual basis. How can a whole motorway section be planned annually? The Governments says: \u201CBut we can\u2019t provide the funding any earlier than that.\u201D I suggest that planning not 5 or 10 years out, but 25 to 35 years, would be a much better way of organising the progress of transport in this country. If we plan for the funding, and allocate the funds accordingly, then those plans would be put in place, and would have been put in place if successive Governments had planned as far ahead as that, and Auckland would not be suffering these problems. It is the same with Wellington. Wellington would not be suffering the same problems if long-term planning had been put in place, as well as long-term financial planning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EA lot of funding in this bill is to go to coastal shipping\u2014money transferred from the roads. Petrol tax and road-user charges will be put into coastal shipping. This is not just for New Zealand flagships; it is for international flagships. How can we justify putting money that should have gone on roads and public transport into foreign-owned shipping to transfer goods around New Zealand? It does not make sense. This Government does not make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe have seen a huge, brand-new railway station built in Auckland. It is a magnificent place. I was there for the opening, and it is awe-inspiring. We had to wait half-an-hour for the first train to arrive as it was running late, and every train since has run late, simply because the funding is not there to provide the network of rail and the upgrading of the rail that should have gone with the planning of this. They have bought 40-year-old rolling stock to provide for the transport, and 40-year-old rolling stock keeps breaking down. They have repainted on the outside and put new seats in, but they have not upgraded the workings of the system; therefore it is continually breaking down, and never on time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EEvery region around the country desperately needs better funding and planning from this Government, yet it continues to sit on its hands and not provide that funding. I wish Darren Hughes would be listened to by his Minister of Finance and have that funding available as he promised. He quickly promised that. I saw Dr Cullen cringe, knowing that Darren Hughes was promising money that would never be made available, because he knew it would be spent elsewhere. To rely on tolling to fund these roads is really not good enough when one has the finances in the consolidated account from petrol tax. It should be used on roads and on public transport. It should not be wasted on foreign shipping or elsewhere.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c83d169f15834b67ac8ff7ba46807664\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228d95cc8c4188416ebdfdb255b2bda13f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Land Transport Management Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220d4ced052bad49e8ba6a88f7da886b8e\u0022\u003ECommittees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b99a4b639d934ab2bba24a627037e658\u0022\u003EBusiness of Select Committees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d65a8fb5864a4309869cb9f3175a4c62\u0022\u003EReporting Dates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ace0fc1da2e341b98f89e0abf1354797\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the date by which the Local Government and Environment Committee reports the New Plymouth District Council (Land Vesting) Bill to be extended to 30 April 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e3192b9af7c4d5f941abcc984c427d6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022766a002d557e4d178a1f84f48292f8e0\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1f5895207d7400e8b7b49c3af31fb05\u0022\u003EUrgency\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022350c424ec7fd42d498069605fa800627\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022350c424ec7fd42d498069605fa800627\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That urgency be accorded the passing through the remaining stages of the Counter-Terrorism Bill, the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill, the Retirement Villages Bill, the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill, the Wine Bill, the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Amendment Bill (No 2), and of any bills into which those bills may be divided. Urgency is being moved in order to gain extra sitting hours so as to enable a range of Government business to be dealt with by the House before rising for a short adjournment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222a3a83075807452b887ef897e7f83b59\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That urgency be accorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022340aef9a6eec4e5aa3927843f47b5ceb\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224b9bfa3a371a431bb5eb8403bb731739\u0022\u003EBusiness of the House\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022da73cf2ca96649cbac636d506fd4afbf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da73cf2ca96649cbac636d506fd4afbf\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Despite the fact that the House is in urgency, I seek leave for it to have question time on Wednesday and Thursday in the normal manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022309befb8f7da4e02ac6612290ad5f0d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d8dfd7d32833462e87bf0bf2c2b91b35\u0022\u003ECounter-Terrorism Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c26a39b53a2540329f5816d97c08f678\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe63b636cf204567bde05b2fe1ea4306\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe63b636cf204567bde05b2fe1ea4306\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Counter-Terrorism Bill that it take the bill part by part, and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022681427832324450fb551942b9b2ace7f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002255cf50fb49e841ada2e03c43cff020b1\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002256db0378da514cc18bc5a04076ec618f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256db0378da514cc18bc5a04076ec618f\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Members and the public would think that a bill entitled the Counter-Terrorism Bill would be an accurate description of its purpose. Indeed, in part it is. National is supporting this bill, and its implementation of the conventions on plastic explosives\u2014chemical tracing thereof, Semtex\u2014and also the nuclear proliferation issue. Those are perfectly laudable things to do, and one would expect them to be in a bill about counter-terrorism. The question I have for the Minister, and I would like him to rise to speak to this because it is an issue that was dealt with at length by the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ccb7ed938d4aeb9d23bd86b7ba9abb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I remind the member that we are dealing with the title. It is a very narrow debate, and the member must stick to the title.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfa00f883a0c4800be281aeb36507f25\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Madam Chairperson, if you had not interrupted me you would have perceived precisely the point I am about to make. One would think that a bill entitled the Counter-Terrorism Bill would be confined to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee raised the issue with the Minister as to why this bill had some much wider provisions relating to the Crimes Act and the Misuse of Drugs Act. Those provisions may be desirable in their own right and, indeed, as the Minister has said in the past, some of them are related to counter-terrorism\u2014the need for tracking devices, and things of that nature. The concern, however, is this. The title should be accurate. It should direct members of Parliament, and especially members of the public, to the purpose of the bill\u2014what it is actually about\u2014and it does not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ECertainly part of the bill is about counter-terrorism, but part of it is about general amendments to the criminal law. Submissions were made by the Law Society, in particular, and by various specialists, who presented to the select committee. Members in the Chamber who were at the select committee will know what I am talking about when I say that the broader issues had to be drawn to their attention. They received, at best, cursory attention, except when they had to put in supplementary submissions. That is simply not good enough. The Minister should take on board the injunction from the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to speak on this point, to assure the Committee that this kind of practice will not continue\u2014that bills will be more accurately described\u2014and that a bill that has general propositions about the criminal law, as desirable as they might be, is not nevertheless described only as the Counter-Terrorism Bill. Why, for instance, did we not get a title that said something like \u201CCounter-Terrorism and Amendments to the Crimes Act Bill\u201D? That would have been a more accurate description. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMembers may ask why I have not put in a Supplementary Order Paper to that effect. Well, frankly, it would be pointless. The time for that is at the introduction of the bill, not at this stage of the process. I am not going to put in an amendment. It would be too late. This is about directing the information to the public and to members at the time of the bill\u2019s introduction, not about what we do in the Committee of the whole House, and not about what the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper does, which is to divide the bill into separate components. That is all necessary and desirable, but it does not address this central concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI am concentrating on this issue because I think an important point of parliamentary procedure is that it is the Government\u2019s duty to properly inform the public what bills are about. National does support the measures. We broadly support not just the counter-terrorism measures, but also amendments to the Crimes Act and the Misuse of Drugs Act. What we are concerned about, however, is this creeping habit\u2014one born of arrogance\u2014that says the Government does not have to inform the public and can do just what it likes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022949dde6f09fe463cb32c0b66e594f68d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022949dde6f09fe463cb32c0b66e594f68d\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E My speech will probably help the previous speaker, Wayne Mapp. He said that he did not move an amendment to the title, but I have moved an amendment to the title, which I think he will vote for because it does accommodate his concern. The amendment is to delete the words \u201CCounter-Terrorism\u201D in the title and replace them with the words \u201CCrimes Amendment and Counter-Terrorism\u201D. It is then clear to anyone reading the bill that it concerns both issues. As Wayne Mapp pointed out, there are not only amendments to the Terrorism Suppression Act\u2014that is, amendments relating to terrorism or counter-terrorism\u2014but there are also amendments to the Crimes Act, the Summary Proceedings Act, and the Misuse of Drugs Act. I hope that the title I have proposed will meet with the approval of the Committee, because it is more appropriate. As indicated in the second reading speeches by Wayne Mapp and also by Peter Dunne, there was concern in the select committee that the bill tried to incorporate two quite different things\u2014namely, an amendment to our criminal legislation and amendments to the Terrorism Suppression Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, I was not able to get the committee to agree to split the bill into two. There was a clear interest to split it into two, and have one bill dealing specifically with amendments to the Terrorism Suppression Act, and the other bill dealing with amendments to the other three criminal Acts that I referred to. It would have been important for the whole process of discussion, because I do not think we got quite the number of submitters, particularly on amendments to the criminal legislation, that we might have had if the bill had been correctly titled. People may not have realised that there were so many general amendments to criminal legislation under a bill called the Counter-Terrorism Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAn additional problem is that when general amendments are incorporated into the criminal law, under the Counter-Terrorism Bill, people are scared off a bit from critically examining them. One of the phenomena today, in the post - September 11 environment, is that people are scared of being seen as soft on terrorism. They are a bit more scared to look at any changes that come forward under that title, for fear that they will be deemed to be soft on terrorism. The case of Ahmed Zaoui that is going on in New Zealand right now is an illustration of why an amendment should have been made to the title at the beginning, as Wayne Mapp indicated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is true that for a long time people were scared to look closely at the Ahmed Zaoui case and discuss it in the public arena because they might get linked up with that guy, he might turn out to be a terrorist, and then they would be labelled as supporting terrorists. It was only in the months after he was imprisoned last December, and as the debate has proceeded, that people have been a bit more confident in coming out into the open and saying perhaps it was wrong that the security risk certificate procedure could override and cancel the refugee status determination proceedings at the level of the refugee status branch. The Refugee Status Appeals Authority can be overridden by the secret procedure of the Minister of Immigration in her putting down the security risk certificate on Ahmed Zaoui, and then the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, operating in secret and not even giving Mr Zaoui or his lawyers any information on what the accusations are against him, can determine his future and perhaps send him back to torture, and possible death, under the Algerian regime that he fled from many years ago. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think that is an indication of the problem of putting things under a title like \u201CCounter-Terrorism\u201D We also see that in the United States. Generally, its criminal law has a lot of checks and balances and a Bill of Rights to back it up, but one can look at Guantanamo Bay and at the abuse of due process and civil liberties in that area, under the guise of counter-terrorism. About 650 people are sitting in Guantanamo Bay, and a lot of them have been there for a couple of years. They could be there indefinitely. I think it was US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld who said that they might be there until the war against terrorism is over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u002286871651d25d4b84aa1bf81b12fbea91\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286871651d25d4b84aa1bf81b12fbea91\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E It is not often that speeches on the title can be evocative and romantic. Certainly, in the course of these short comments it is not my plan to meet that high threshold standard. However, I would like to make several points to a crowded Chamber and a large number of alert listeners. Those comments do centre on the title, the \u201CCounter-Terrorism Bill\u201D. I am very much aware that there has been already before the House a Terrorism Suppression Bill, which has passed through its stages. There is always a niggle at the back of the minds of those who serve in the intelligence community, centring on the words \u201Ccounter-terrorism\u201D. Certainly, in the context of objectives to be achieved, terrorism suppression\u2014albeit that that name has already been taken\u2014is a much happier phrase. I see Government members nodding in acquiescence to that view, and so they should. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EIn looking at the name of the bill\u2014the \u201CCounter-Terrorism Bill\u201D\u2014the starting point, I suggest, is to explore briefly what a terrorist act is. Although that is not defined in this particular bill, it certainly was in the Terrorism Suppression Act. That Act had associated with it three conjoint elements in the test. As members will recall, the first element of the test was that the act was carried out to advance an ideological, a political, or a religious cause. The second element of the test was that the act was intended to induce civilian terror, or perhaps to unduly compel a Government or an international organisation to do, or not do, something. The third element was that the act was intended to cause one of a number of outcomes. Without going through that material, those outcomes included destruction of or damage to property, and the introduction or release of disease-bearing organisms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EWhilst I have no quibble with the word \u201Cterrorism\u201D in the title of this bill, it is the word \u201Ccounter\u201D that I may perhaps take exception to. When I say I may take exception to that, I need to qualify that. As we know, this bill, in terms of its title, will have a short future life. That is because the bill will be divided in a dramatic way into six separate bills. It will lose its present title upon that event occurring if Supplementary Order Paper 163 is passed. Supplementary Order Paper 163 proposes that the bill be split into six wholly separate pathways. Those pathways would see this legislation variously called the Crimes Amendment Act, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Act, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Act, the Sentencing Amendment Act, and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Act. So although there are good motives behind the previous speaker\u2019s comments, which were intended to convey a more correct appellation in terms of the title to the bill, it is too late for such comments. He sought to embark upon a pointless exercise, because the Counter-Terrorism Bill of tonight will shortly be renamed in the ways that I have described. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker made\u2014and, of course, Dr Mapp, in his usual fluent style, similarly made\u2014the point that some philosophical issues relating to the title are well discussed, I would assert, in the commentary on the bill as reported from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. Under the heading \u201CApproach to new provisions in the bill\u201D a philosophical argument is raised, based on views expressed by Professor Matthew Palmer, whom I hold in the highest regard, that terrorist acts are no different in many cases from normal crimes such as murder or bombing, except for the political, ideological, or religious motive behind the terrorist acts. So there is a policy argument that needs to be well addressed here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002279cdd42ed52e44c8b1501ef651be30e9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279cdd42ed52e44c8b1501ef651be30e9\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I take the point made by the preceding speaker that we are looking at a bill that will shortly be split into the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Act, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Act, and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Act. As far as the title is concerned, a wide range of titles is possible and certainly will happen. A suggestion was put forward by the Greens member that the bill should be called the \u201CCrimes Amendment and Counter-Terrorism Bill\u201D. New Zealand First supports this legislation. We are strongly in favour of all action to support law and order and to take action against terrorist activities, including those with ideological, political, or religious causes, and we support the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service aspect of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne sometimes wonders where the Greens are coming from in this Parliament. Here they are, opposing the Labour Government. Legislation has been passed that has gone though the House purely because of Green support\u2014I think of the Supreme Court Bill, in particular\u2014but they are raising objections to this bill. If the Greens were sincere about being an Opposition party, they should have opposed the Supreme Court Bill as well as this bill, rather than keeping the Government and its policies in place. But they just want to allow the Government to run for the 2 or so years that it has to go\u2014unless Miss Helen Clark waves the white flag earlier than usual\u2014and to collect whatever is coming to them in the meantime. The Greens have no regard for the proper constitutional way of doing things, which makes things difficult for the Labour Government. Instead, they supported the Labour Government on the Supreme Court Bill and then opposed it on the genetic modification legislation. The only consistency about the Greens is that they will do everything possible to keep the Government in office, even though that means that their views on the genetic modification legislation are ignored, defeated, and destroyed by the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI now get back to Mr Locke\u2019s view that this bill should be called the \u201CCrimes Amendment and Counter-Terrorism Bill\u201D. His may be the only opposing view to be expressed in the Committee. The time to have really dug his toes in and to have tried to get some support for his measure was before the Supreme Court Bill was passed. He should have told the Government what to do with that type of legislation, because the appeal rights and suchlike of the Counter-Terrorism Bill\u2014which is about be divided into a number of different bills\u2014that people may wish to have enforced would have been better considered by an independent body such as the Privy Council, rather than by the bodies that currently exist in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhen Mr Locke opposes the bill, he also supports Mr Zaoui. We know that Mr Zaoui has been banned from a couple, at least, of European countries because he is a terrorist. Why on earth should anyone in New Zealand want that person to be retained here? Mr Zaoui had the opportunity to go through 17 different countries in the world, all of which have rejected him, and here we have the Greens wanting to support him. That is quite an extraordinary state of affairs. Mr Zaoui is a person who got on a plane to come to New Zealand, destroyed his passport on the way here, and then expected us to throw out the welcome mat for him. It is an extraordinary state of affairs. The Greens talk about wanting to protect our country and our environment from germs and suchlike, but they seem to have no hesitation in allowing any type of person to come into this country and create any type of terrorist havoc. There is a great inconsistency in the way that the Greens\u2014and Mr Locke, in particular\u2014look at these measures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First Party will support this bill, as it always does with regard to legislation that implements good law and order and that will ensure that ideological, political, and religious causes are not supported by terrorist activities. We look forward to supporting the bills into which the Counter-Terrorism Bill will be divided, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 163.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022655b15086f2a4f57953d0e1760e183a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022655b15086f2a4f57953d0e1760e183a8\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to follow up some of the points made by the previous speaker about the title of the Counter-Terrorism Bill, and whether \u201Ccounter-terrorism\u201D is an appropriate term. I took a very moderate approach in my first speech. I wanted to address the main issue of two different types of bill being incorporated into one, with disadvantages for the public and for Parliament. The question posed is also whether this bill will really put counter-terrorism into effect\u2014that is, really opposing and reducing the incidence of terrorism throughout the world, and particularly in the Islamic world, which has most of the instances of terrorism at the present time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the criticisms that have been made, including by submitters on this bill and on its predecessor, the Terrorism Suppression Bill, is that the definition of terrorism in the Terrorism Suppression Act is much too broad. It does not target only people who support those who use violence against and create terror amongst civilians; it also covers, within the very broad definition of terrorism in that Act, people who seriously disrupt an infrastructure facility in a way likely to endanger human life. One does not even need to intend to endanger human life to be covered under that definition. All that one needs to do is to fulfil two other criteria: first, to unduly compel a Government to do something\u2014which many politicians are accused of\u2014and, second, the motive has to be political, religious, or ideological. Richard Worth made a point about the singling out of politically motivated acts, and referred back to Matthew Palmer\u2019s comments on that very question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI find that rather strange, because sometimes a political motivation can lead to terror and very bad things that we all want to condemn. We have incidents in our own history, such as the 1981 Springbok tour, when people protested\u2014including many members in this Chamber at the present time\u2014and got involved in quite disruptive activity that could possibly be covered under this bill. The fact that they were doing it for a political reason\u2014that is, they were against racial injustice and South African apartheid\u2014was used in court in their favour. That is the reality. Other people do things for a religious reason in a positive, humanitarian way, in terms of non-violent civil disobedience. But if, in relation to real terrorism, we really want to have justice, we have to go back to treating all actions, in terms of this legislation, as being fundamentally the same if they have an intimidatory effect on a civilian population and cause real violence and death to people. The motivation is not what counts; it is the nature of the act and whether it is against what is, in effect, our criminal legislation. So do we need to have this layer of anti-terrorist offences on top of our criminal legislation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAnother amendment to the title that I could have put forward might have been the \u201CCounter-Terrorism (Except State Terrorism) Bill\u201D, because this bill and the preceding Terrorism Suppression Act target a particular form\u2014killing, wounding, or inspiring fear in civilians\u2014of terrorism: terror caused by non-State agents. We can see an example of that when we look at the recent terrorism in Indonesia. Everyone is very conscious of the horrific terrorist bombing in Bali that was commemorated recently. Everyone is very conscious of that terrorism and, rightly, very opposed to that. They welcome the fact that the perpetrators have been brought to justice and punished. We all agree on that. But within Indonesia there is another form of terrorism that kills, wounds, and maims many more people than in the Bali bombing did. That is not to excuse the Bali bombing, but to point out that in Aceh today the Indonesian Government, through its military, is terrorising the people of Aceh, killing many of them, and pushing many of them out of their homes and the places they live in. That form of terrorism is killing more people than the Bali bombing did. Terrorism cannot be balanced on a scale. We cannot say that the Bali terrorism is any better or any worse than that in Aceh, but in terms of the number of people killed, more have been killed in Aceh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022b806e06a34924a5999ce7130ebdfb85f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b806e06a34924a5999ce7130ebdfb85f\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccbe29a506cd4b90be5253aced18fe6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccbe29a506cd4b90be5253aced18fe6f\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party will be supporting the Counter-Terrorism Bill and its various derivatives. The debate on the appropriateness of the title is very interesting. It has gone along the path of whether it is the nature of the act or the motive of the perpetrator that defines something as terrorism, and that is a legitimate debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EACT certainly upholds the rights and freedoms of individuals, and in many respects would probably have views that are not too dissimilar to those of the Greens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E We also acknowledge the role of the State, and the powers of the State that are necessary to uphold those rights and freedoms. But that is where we can come to a dilemma: the powers of the State can reach a point where, in purporting to protect the rights and freedoms of individuals, they actually erode them. As legislators, I think we should always be very mindful of that fact when we give powers to the State, because there are some quite awesome powers that legislators give to various States, and some States do abuse those powers\u2014that is reality. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EBut like it or not, the world has changed. We are in a war against terror, there are unforeseen consequences, and we need to play our part in it. It is important, though, that we do not get carried away with the rhetoric and the emotion of the time and overplay our hands. But there is no doubt in my mind\u2014and certainly ACT\u2019s position is quite clear: we support appropriate measures to give powers to our Government, in cooperation with other likeminded Governments, to combat what has become international terror, perpetrated on a planned, international scale. The scale on which that terror is now being enacted is something we have not seen before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe note the various components the bill is being split into: the Crimes Amendment Bill, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, and also the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill. Each one of those is a sensible component, and we understand and support the reason for it being separated at this stage. However, I still have considerable reservations\u2014and I suspect that the Minister in the chair does also\u2014about the breadth and direction of these powers. I guess my plea to the Minister\u2014and the ACT message to him\u2014is to always remember the rightful role of the rights and freedoms of individuals and civil liberties. There is a point where excessive powers in the hands of the State will begin to trample on the rights and freedoms of individuals. That said, the ACT party supports this bill\u2014not in its entirety, as my colleague has pointed out, but the overall direction of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EVarious comments have been made about the plight of Ahmed Zaoui with regard to this issue. On that issue, I do not have sufficient information, and I am not sure that anyone has. I think it is very dangerous for members of Parliament to leap to conclusions without adequate information. We are being denied access to that information, which is regrettable, so it comes back to having faith that the powers that be are exercising those powers judiciously and appropriately, although we can never be sure of that. But at face value, I am certainly not convinced that Mr Zaoui is a terrorist, as some would purport. The very fact that he is fleeing from a corrupt regime speaks volumes in itself. A very corrupt regime in Algeria has put him on the top of its wanted list, which I think is a useful example of the propensity for emotion to overrun logic and common sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u002208ede824870841f7a24b74ac0d3aa63f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208ede824870841f7a24b74ac0d3aa63f\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u00225420e2145ff240a298de12a526d8c7ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225420e2145ff240a298de12a526d8c7ac\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. United Future members\u2014and I know they are only new\u2014have been attempting to get the call, and they have not had an opportunity to contribute to the debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b256cbc1846944d98114ee79c5a7b718\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The question has been accepted. The Clerk will conduct a party vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f515f2d6f246e192cca23ea76abf9d\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I do ask that you reflect upon the reasonableness of your decision, though, because the United Future party has not had an opportunity to contribute.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a2fdfbb361a45daa8c600653982061a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000398\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000399\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201CCounter-Terrorism\u201D and substitute the words \u201CCrimes Amendments and Counter-Terrorism\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002258baf26d33cf4b999efdc9730e206a63\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to, and clause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000400\u0022\u003EClause 2  Commencement\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022c96ad4c20d77470e8ea8665ea7aa68aa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c96ad4c20d77470e8ea8665ea7aa68aa\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 2 is the commencement provision of the Counter-Terrorism Bill, and National supports this bill and its enactment in the divided way that Supplementary Order Paper 163 proposes. But I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to what seems to be a clear anomaly in respect of clause 2, and to invite the Minister, who has a very detailed knowledge of this bill and all its intricacies, to make some short and relevant comment on what I now say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that in the select committee process, which saw the bill looked at by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee and reported on by it, it was seen as appropriate to significantly change clause 2. Subclauses (1) and (2) of the bill as introduced\u2014which provided that clauses 13, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, and 23 of the principal Act and clause 13B of the Terrorism Suppression Act were to come into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council\u2014were struck out. I ask the Minister why it was seen as appropriate to make the significant changes that the committee did, and why it is that the Minister supports, and the Government presumably supports, the changes that have been made. The select committee has now proposed that clauses 3 to 34 and the schedule come into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor-General, but there is also a note that one or more Orders in Council may appoint different dates for different provisions, and also a second provision that deals with other possibilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003ESo if one looks at clauses 3 to 34 in the context of this bill, it is to be seen that they certainly spread across a large number of parts. For example, they are spread across Part 1, where amendments to the Crimes Act  are numbered in clauses 3 to 8. Then in Part 2 we see a similar spread, with amendments being made to the Terrorism Suppression Act. In Part 3 there is a similar spread, with amendments being made to the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act, the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Act, the Sentencing Act, and, finally, parts of the Summary Proceedings Act, before we come to clause 34, which inserts a raft of provisions relating to the important subject of tracking devices. I would like to ask the Minister why it has been seen as appropriate to have this significant change made in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d26e809cce544afe95e0d2260d00a64f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d26e809cce544afe95e0d2260d00a64f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I think the points Richard Worth has raised about the commencement date are important\u2014that it is really left to Orders in Council and that we do not quite know what will go on. When it gets to the question of Orders in Council I hope that wisdom will prevail, because we do not want to rush into the commencement of the provisions in this bill. That is particularly important in this climate at the present time, when people\u2014even members of Parliament\u2014are getting so stirred up about terrorism in a way that it is affecting their rationality and ability to discuss questions of terrorism, or of who might or might not be a terrorist, in a rational way. So the longer the commencement date is extended the better, and I would prefer to have it in this commencement clause that none of the provisions will take effect for 5 years. That would give a proper cooling-down period\u2014not only in New Zealand but around the world. We could take stock a little of some of the infringements of civil liberties in the name of the fight against terrorism\u2014as we see in the matter of Guantanamo Bay, which I mentioned before\u2014and there could be time for people to settle down and look at this whole issue in a calm way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have seen today an illustration of why the commencement date should be extended. People have been going on about Ahmed Zaoui, both in this debate and in question time, and trying to treat him and describe him as a terrorist when the good people on the Refugee Status Appeals Authority, who spent months on the matter, delivered a 223-page judgment that completely cleared him of all charges of terrorism. But there is an attitude out there, and amongst some people in the House, that those very skilled people in that area should not be taken account of, and that we should just say he is a terrorist. Another example of why the commencement date should be extended is that when one reads the newspapers one sees an example of the Ahmed Zaoui case again. When he was sent to Paremoremo prison in December last year, if one reads the papers of that time, there was almost an assumption that he was a terrorist. He had been called a terrorist, so there was an assumption he was a terrorist. That is the climate we are acting in at the present time, so we should not have an early commencement date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe police themselves got all carried away in that matter\u2014and they are supposed to be the enforcers of our law. They looked up a website of a chap called Lyndon LaRouche, an extreme right-wing nutter who has run for US President, is a conspiracy theorist, and all the rest of it. The New Zealand Police tapped in their computers and in their security risk certificate for Ahmed Zaoui on 11 December last year, they told people to look at that LaRouche site to find out that Ahmed Zaoui was a terrorist. Of course, Lyndon LaRouche was just regurgitating the propaganda of the Algerian regime\u2014a murderous regime that had sentenced him to death in absentia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220714e7cad14f48dc87d3198e965e8b59\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What about the French court?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c97abde64ae4051b9d52a59ec9d4e3f\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good call from Jim Peters, on my right. The French court is an interesting case. In the year 2000, I think it was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022744b2f4256044f1d8f841b5ac5e13a6a\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faa03f2707044388a0f9ba7e428a681c\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: In 2001 French court officials said they would have a go at Ahmed Zaoui for something that he and a few other people were supposed to have done in 1993. They tried to make out that he was involved in some terrorist conspiracy. Did they notify Ahmed Zaoui\u2014who was readily obtainable\u2014that he was being brought before a French court 7 or 8 years after that alleged event? No, they did not inform him. Did they give him any chance to defend himself? No. What was the nature of the charges? They were gone through by the Refugee Status Appeals Authority in great detail, and found to be completely wanting. That was the reality. When in the French court they did convict him, did they say they would extradite the guy to go back to France? No, they said they would give him a suspended sentence\u2014hardly what they would do for a real terrorist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt was not a process of justice, and the Refugee Status Appeals Authority got all the evidence together, talked to all the people who knew something about the situation, and decided that it was a completely phoney process of justice. I think it is an illustration of my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223210806dbaf041c9ad18b1d2981c8015\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I remind members again that this is a debate on the commencement clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022492c058059144e93a072dfb4c67b6a42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022492c058059144e93a072dfb4c67b6a42\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E The Chairperson is right; this debate is on the commencement clause. I am not sure, from the previous speech, what Mr Ahmed Zaoui had to do with this, but I do want to speak very briefly about his case, because as a number of members will know\u2014certainly, Mr Locke\u2014I have had a little to say about it over the last few weeks. It is important that some of the facts come out\u2014facts that are on the public record. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAhmed Zaoui was convicted in Belgium after a 5-day hearing\u2014a bit like a District Court or High Court hearing in New Zealand\u2014of having associations with the Armed Islamic Group (GIA). He was then sentenced and deported. He went to Switzerland and was deported from there. He was convicted in absentia in France. Well, perhaps, that is a questionable procedure, but the key point is that he was convicted after a full hearing in Belgium. Yet the Refugee Status Appeals Authority felt that it could sit in New Zealand and adopt some kind of appeal court process for Belgian proceedings. In the absence of any evidence out of Belgium, was the prosecution evidence from Belgium presented in New Zealand? The answer is no, because there was no evidence from the prosecution in Belgium. We effectively had the Refugee Status Appeals Authority acting, in practical terms, only on information from the defence. I guess that if one hears only from the defence, one may well believe them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EBut there is a more serious issue here, and all the defenders of Mr Ahmed Zaoui neglect it entirely. In New Zealand we have a two-stage process. The first is the issue of the national security risk certificate. It is worth bearing in mind that Mr Zaoui is not a resident, or a citizen, but a person who entered New Zealand illegally, and we are entitled in this country to ask whether people who enter our country constitute a national security risk. After the certificate is issued we go further. We then have a special procedure that is dealt with by an independent person, the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. That person is not a bureaucrat, I might add, but a highly respected, retired High Court judge, whose job it is to assess independently the issuance of that certificate. I am on the record, as are others, as saying the decision of that person, Justice Greig, should be the determinant of the case, and that he should be able to be left alone to get on with his job. He is appointed for that very purpose. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOne would think, on hearing from Mr Locke, that Mr Zaoui\u2019s lawyers cannot make submissions to the Inspector-General, but they can. Further, we heard in the Chamber today that there is a synopsis of what has occurred against Mr Zaoui. So I think it is important that we stick to the facts, but recognise that in the case of Mr Zaoui we let the proper processes take place and he gets an independent assessment from the Inspector-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is wrong for those who support him\u2014Mr Locke and Mr Robson\u2014to pretend that we do not have fair processes. We do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis country has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars\u2014through legal aid, through a lengthy hearing in the Refugee Status Appeals Authority, and now, before the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security\u2014taking Mr Zaoui\u2019s interests into account. But, more important, given that he is not a resident or citizen, we should be taking the interests of this nation into account. This is not the time to look at these issues through rose-coloured glasses. We have to take a realistic approach. I trust retired High Court Judge Greig to do the right thing, and Mr Locke should do likewise. That decision should be determinative. I do not expect Mr Locke to say, should the decision be adverse to Mr Zaoui, that we should then continue to defend him. The question here is whether we trust our institutions to protect public safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022eccd5460c6764970adf9800d37f00a40\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eccd5460c6764970adf9800d37f00a40\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Let me start by saying that we are discussing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225013c19f53624f889d993984a515856e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: We are talking about the commencement date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290c849adf0294928afce25a9bf5b3e8f\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is what I thought. We were talking about clause 2, \u201CCommencement\u201D, but with Mr Locke having opened up with such a tirade, he has expanded the debate under the normal conventions, allowing people such as Mr Mapp to respond. I simply want to make one comment on the Zaoui case\u2014the case that Mr Locke outlined in his argument against the commencement date. From where New Zealand First stands, Mr Zaoui would not be causing any discussion, any debate, or any conjecture as to whether he is a terrorist, had he been dealt with as the illegal entrant into this country that he is\u2014end of story. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMr Zaoui came here with some documents, trashed them, presented himself without documentation, and claimed political asylum and refugee status. Mr Zaoui should have been put on the first aircraft back to the country from whence he came, and we would not be wasting time and taxpayer dollars debating the merits of his perceived case. That is precisely where I stand on that issue. I cannot for the life of me understand how Mr Locke can go out there and talk to people about how they do not get adequate funding to pay for free health-care for children under 6\u2014they are all having to shell out of their pockets now\u2014while, at the same time, Mr Zaoui is consuming hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of legal aid, of SIS time, of court time, and of jail time, all courtesy of the taxpayer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E It is interesting looking at the commencement date, and I would like the Minister, if he has a moment, to take a call. The Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper refers to sections 10 to 23 being deferred and coming into force on a date to be appointed by the Governor-General by Order in Council. The remaining provisions will come into force on the day after the date on which the Act receives the royal assent. What does that mean? If we look at the wording in clauses 10 to 23, we notice straight up that we are looking at amendments to the principal Act, that being the Terrorism Suppression Act. People need to remember that this bill enhances, and makes some modifications to, the Terrorism Suppression Act, to make it more effective. Mr Locke has suggested that we should defer the commencement date by 5 years. I ask members of the Committee to take a quiet moment to read clauses 10 to 23, and consider for a moment the impact on our ability to deal with the suppression of terrorism if we deferred this bill for another 5 years. We are talking about improving the principal Act by adding reference to the Nuclear Material Convention and the Plastic Explosives Convention\u2014conventions that we have signed up to, conventions that we have pledged to support, and that we have passed legislation to ratify and make meaningful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister, what are the implications of deferring the bill for 5 years? Can the Minister help enlighten Mr Locke as to what the implications of a deferment for 5 years would be? Clause 11, \u201CInterpretation\u201D, states: \u201CSection 4 of the principal Act is amended by inserting, in their appropriate alphabetical order, the following definitions: \u2018duly authorised military device means an explosive article, including, but not restricted to, shell, bomb\u2014\u2019 \u201D. We are talking about clauses that I understand are essential in enhancing the Terrorism Suppression Act and making it more meaningful and effective, and to allow us to comply with previous conventions that we as a nation have agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe notion that we can sit here and breathe through our noses and take time to reflect, ponder, and gaze at our navels, whilst we allow people to \u201Ccalm down and overcome their fears of terrorism\u201D\u2014unduly founded, as Mr Locke would have us believe\u2014is nonsensical. In the very short time of less than 2 years since the attacks on the twin towers, we have seen bombing incidents all over the world, and terrorism\u2014far from decreasing\u2014is increasing. Soft targets such as New Zealand are considered lambs to the slaughter by people who would further their own political agendas around the world, and there will come a time, as other countries harden their internal defence systems, when places like New Zealand will be seen as the only attractive and viable target.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002222e1ae7ef4b94b9ebcb8d2ddedd82cb5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002222e1ae7ef4b94b9ebcb8d2ddedd82cb5\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E Very briefly, the vast majority of this bill will come into effect as soon as the royal assent is achieved for the Act. However, there are two areas that will come into effect when there is an Order in Council\u2014those are clauses 3 to 7, and clauses 10 to 23. The common-sense reason is that structures need to be put in place, and regulations need to be drawn up, before we can practically implement them, but they will be implemented as soon as possible. There is no question of those provisions being delayed unnecessarily, and certainly not for 5 years. These are measures needed to counter terrorism and other forms of serious crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002299571589b5ae4e1fab2f57904d0ea29c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002299571589b5ae4e1fab2f57904d0ea29c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The amendment provision gives us the time to think about whether we are panicking, or whether we are rushing. The ACT party believes that clearly there are sensible things that every country must do about terrorism, that evil is real, and that people who do not care about the innocents they hurt in the cause of securing their political objectives are a special kind of threat. The normal response of criminal law to these people should properly take account of the fact that they prey on victims with whom they have no natural connection, who would not normally be seen as targets, and who can therefore feel a particular horror about being victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, the ACT party is concerned about some of the same factors that Keith Locke raised on behalf of the Greens, though not the concerns about Ahmed Zaoui\u2014the commencement could not come quick enough for us if it related to Ahmed Zaoui. I think the supposition that the Greens and other defenders act on is that he has some kind of entitlement to be here, and, in ACT\u2019s opinion, only New Zealanders have a right to be here. Anyone else is on a privilege, and there is no requirement to extend that privilege simply because someone claims to be a refugee. That is grace and favour, and Mr Zaoui has abused our hospitality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E Coming back to the commencement, I wish that it were being delayed, because I think it is almost inevitable that, in a passion, we do things to our own law that we should not be doing. I look, for example, at the new offence of causing disease or sickness in animals. It looks to me as if someone from the Green Party, for example, could make it an offence to sterilise possums with GM. I know that that is never intended, but the problem is that when people are legislating in a passion, they take these well-meant words and do not look at them closely, simply because there is a panic and a rush to get new powers, or to at least look as if they are trying to give new powers. I use the new clause 298A about causing disease or sickness in animals as an example. At first sight, it could actually make it an offence to spray mosquitoes, but, of course, that is not likely to cause major damage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E But it certainly could be that that clause might one day be used for political purposes to confront people like the Greens who have a genuine concern about a proposed response to an animal pest and, therefore, the criminal law could be misused. It is not fanciful. In the United States a law against mob racketeers has been misapplied in all sorts of spheres, including throughout the securities industry. The \u201CRICO Act\u201D, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organisations Act, has been very much misapplied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAnother example of haste is new section 307A, \u201CThreats of harm to people or property\u201D inserted by clause 7. It looks to me as though anti-smokers could be targets, or perhaps people against certain drugs or drug companies, because they will intend to disrupt the commercial activity of a particular kind, and it could be argued that they will, therefore, create a health risk to one or more people. That is just the kind of unintended consequence that a long delay in the commencement could be used to iron out. The Minister should take that on board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Minister is aware that I am equally concerned that, unintentionally, he has put hurdles in the path of people who want to use surveillance cameras. If members care to look at the definition of \u201Ctracking device\u201D they will find that it covers a surveillance camera, and, as I read it, that says that from now on if the police want to cooperate with a supermarket or even someone who wants to know where his own vehicles are going, they have to go and get a High Court warrant to do it. It is an intrusion on anti-crime effort, and that is a consequence of well-meaning people looking at law in haste and not examining it properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe commencement clause should be delayed, and the power to defer by Order in Council should be used in order to go back through this in the cold light of day and examine why we would want to ban the use of surveillance cameras without a High Court warrant, which the legislation appears to do. I normally deplore commencement clauses that depend on a ministerial decision or on the Order in Council process. In this case, delay would be desirable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022094f1f417f2d4f608592a94eb4da2da6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022094f1f417f2d4f608592a94eb4da2da6\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268b79bf18e0147468a40d392b52abf89\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9;ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000435\u0022\u003EClause 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225c7d1d143d58488c800a6df2306d4135\u0022\u003EPart 1  Amendments to Crimes Act 1961\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00227e760196a1ff4fa6a650f0511b3207fa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e760196a1ff4fa6a650f0511b3207fa\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to speak on this part because I have some amendments to it, relating particularly to clauses 7 and 8. Clause 7 is about threatening to do harm. One of the problems is that the definition\u2014it is a bit like the definition in the Terrorism Suppression Act, although this is not specifically about terrorism\u2014is very broad, because all one has to do to qualify under this particular clause is to threaten to do something that is going to cause significant disruption to a commercial activity or a civil administration in a way that causes a risk to health, major property damage, major economic loss, or major damage to the national economy of New Zealand. They are very broad terms. People do not actually need to do the act; they can just, even as of now, threaten to do something. For instance, some of the M\u0101ori involved in the battle for the foreshore and seabed are getting quite upset about their property rights, as they see them. They are worried about the aquaculture. If they took some action against an aquaculture facility somewhere and caused major economic loss to one or more persons\u2014in fact, they do not need to do it; right now they need just to threaten to do it\u2014then, under this clause, they could be up for quite an extensive period in jail. The terms are so broad that they could be misinterpreted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI turn to genetic engineering. Of course, most people do not want the release of genetically engineered foods into crops and into the New Zealand environment, but there are people even now who are threatening perhaps to take some sort of non-violent civil disobedience - type direct action in a way that could affect genetically engineered crops, and that action could qualify under the definition in this clause. So just the threat of it now\u2014or when and if this legislation passes, through Order in Council or whatever it is\u2014could mean that people are subject to quite a big penalty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ENew section 307A(2), inserted by clause 7\u2014and one of my amendments relates to it\u2014states that any strike, lockout, or other industrial action is not, by itself, a sufficient basis for inferring that a person has committed an offence. This is what is known as a comfort clause. There is a similar clause in the Terrorism Suppression Act. People can be a bit misled and say: \u201CI can be a good protester and I won\u2019t be covered by this clause because of those two words\u2014\u2018by itself\u2019.\u201D But I have interrogated the officials and the legal people in this respect, and they all say that the clause, in both the Terrorism Suppression Act and in this bill, is just a comfort clause. If someone who is involved in protest action does actually cause the effects I have just described, he or she is still covered, despite this comfort clause. But I have put forward an amendment. If people think that strikes, lockouts, and legitimate protests are protected under this clause, then I have moved an amendment to cut out the two words \u201Cby itself\u201D so it would be clear that people involved in strikes, lockouts, industrial action, and other protest action will not be covered by that. But the Green Party is opposed to that whole clause, because, as I said, it is quite dangerous. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other clause I have an amendment to is clause 8. Clause 8\u2014and this also comes up in Part 3\u2014enables the police to engage in fishing expeditions involving interception devices. There is already a provision for interception devices in the criminal law, in order to try to get drug offenders under warrant, and also in the Crimes Act, in order to get serious offenders. The two amendments to this bill, in Parts 1 and 3, mean that the police can say they want an interception warrant because of a particular offence that they think a person may have committed. Under these amendments, once the police have the interception warrant they can then look for information on all kinds of crimes across the board, basically. If there was a situation of the police misusing their powers a little bit, they could use this measure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u00226320393710784b2cbcb41b67a6493f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226320393710784b2cbcb41b67a6493f5e\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Why is Mr Locke wrong? Because he is wrong. His error starts when he ignores how this section is constructed. People would have to do two things, in fact, not one. Their actions have to intend the effect of one of these offences: they have to affect the civilian population of New Zealand, not just one person but the entire population or a large chunk thereof; and, they have to do something that would threaten an infrastructure facility\u2014something pretty fundamental. The next thing mentioned in the section is the civil administration of the country, and, finally, the commercial activity. These are global concepts\u2014actions cannot be narrowly focused.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b79c285390f3487f960b4c77ab607e7c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Prior to the dinner break I was explaining why I believe that Mr Locke is wrong, and I have taken this call because the meaning of new section 307A, inserted by clause 7, is an important point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn essence, two things are required. Firstly, one has to have an \u201Ceffect\u201D, and, prior to the dinner break, I listed the effects. They are things of widespread significance to New Zealand\u2014that is, affecting our civilian population, the infrastructure facility, civil administration, or commercial activity. These are not individual activities, in my view. They are something of general effect. That is how the words will be interpreted. That is the first test that has to be satisfied\u2014namely, an effect. In addition, a \u201Cresult\u201D has to be intended. They are: creating a risk to the health of one or more people\u2014admittedly that is narrower, in the sense of numbers; causing major property damage; causing major economic loss to one or more persons; and causing major damage to the national economy of New Zealand. The fact is that those are accumulative requirements\u2014the widespread effect, leading to the result\u2014both of which must be in the contemplation of the person. It is those two things together that would cause the activity to be caught by section 307A. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThen, on top of that, as Mr Locke noted earlier, there is the avoidance provision. So those things are not caught if they are derived from a strike, lockout, industrial action, advocacy, dissent, etc. It is not a complete exemption. Mr Locke has put up a Supplementary Order Paper that would have those as a complete exemption. I believe he is also wrong there. What if the intended outcome of the protest or dissent were this widespread effect, followed with the intended result? Surely one could not be supporting that kind of dissent. After all, one might even argue that Hamas would otherwise be exempted. Yet they conduct terrorist activities on a daily basis, which have these causes, these effects, and these results. So Mr Locke, perhaps unwittingly, perhaps not, is almost advocating terrorism. It is extraordinary that he would do that, and I cannot believe that he would deliberately do that. Even he, I believe, would not deliberately do that. But that is, nevertheless, a necessary consequence of his reasoning. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EBecause the Government has taken only one call so far on this very important legislation, I believe it is incumbent on me to explain the purposes in detail. This legislation should have the widespread support of the House, and if the Government fails in its duty to explain the purposes in detail, not just in a second reading speech but by analysis of the critical clauses\u2014and certainly new section 307A is in that category\u2014then it behoves the Opposition to undertake that duty. These are important issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00222c4f0d4bc061486fb465102f37f37fd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c4f0d4bc061486fb465102f37f37fd8\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to reply to some of the points that my colleague Wayne Mapp has raised. He is trying to make out, I think unsuccessfully, that the threats of action have to be on some huge scale affecting everything, in order to be covered by this provision. But when we look through the provision, it talks about a threat to cause significant disruption to things like a board of trustees of a school, or commercial activities of a particular type, etc. Obviously, we are not talking about something affecting a whole society; we are talking about threats of action that might affect just one entity, one farmer, or whatever. That is clear in section 307A(1B), in clause 7, where the results have to be of four types. One result is \u201Ccausing major economic loss to one or more persons\u201D. Therefore, causing major economic loss to one person would qualify. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAnother result is \u201Ccausing major damage to the national economy\u201D. That is a very broad provision, but how does one define that? It requires subjective political determination. Some people would argue that Monsanto, even though it has declined as a company of late, would potentially cause major damage to the national economy of New Zealand with its GE foods. From another viewpoint, others would say that people who threaten to pull out GE crops are causing major damage to the national economy. It depends on where one is coming from. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe examples I gave in my speech first time around are arguments that members might say are the kinds of examples the Greens would give about GE or the M\u0101ori debate over the foreshore and how they might affect marine farming. But take the example of farmers\u2014and this is a recent example\u2014threatening to block roads in response to the \u201Cfart tax\u201D. That is an action; a threat. Under this provision people need only to threaten; they do not need to carry it through. That is what farmers did; they threatened to block roads because of the \u201Cfart tax\u201D. Their action would come under this provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237afc3390f1846c48792f2cdf1a5777c\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Come on! It would not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6aaf899d8a34f5f938840da4f0a6e39\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: That is real. The member may not like it, but that is the problem, because this is a very broad provision. The result could be determined by political bias. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI want to finish by explaining my amendment to omit clause 8, because that clause could allow for fishing expeditions by the police. The interception warrant under this provision can be taken out for a simple theft charge, when the police suspect a person is guilty of theft, and then a fishing expedition can take place and the person can be had up on a misuse of drugs charge or some other charge. This provision tends to undermine what has happened in the courts to date, whereby judges are a bit careful about evidence and how it is gathered. To allow interception warrants to be granted on one little thing, and then used for a whole wide range of offences, can lead to abuse if the police force did get a little bit out of control and started getting a little biased against certain people, and went on these fishing expeditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESo it is true, as with any provision that upholds our civil liberties, that, one might say, some criminals are getting away with it because the police got this warrant out on a theft charge and then they caught somebody on this other offence, while using the interception device, and so that is good. But if we want to make sure that the police are not taking out interception warrant after interception warrant, and misusing their powers in this way, then we have to restrict what they can do, more specifically to the purposes of the warrant, and not allow for fishing expeditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThat is how the law has operated up to date\u2014with a balance between civil liberties, and people not being subject to excessive surveillance, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the police being able to do sufficient to catch most criminals in our society by, in some cases, using interception warrants. I think that both of these amendments are very important. I want to go back and talk about an amendment I raised at the start. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00225c0fb37ef83344abaa70740a7a09a4d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c0fb37ef83344abaa70740a7a09a4d2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise for the ACT party, to take the unusual step of supporting Mr Keith Locke\u2019s warnings about these provisions in Part 1. I believe that this has been drafted hastily. It is drafted as a response to this Government\u2019s desire to subordinate New Zealand to the United Nations, and to look respectable. When we renege on defence and other contracts we have to do something to suck up to the Australians and to the Americans. In this case, sadly, it is by using the worthy cause of counter-terrorism to stick new provisions into our law that may well, one day, be misused for purposes that the people in this Parliament would never have dreamt of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ELook at new section 307A, to be inserted by clause 7, which is the new offence of threat of harm to people or property. This amendment has been further amended by recommendation of the select committee, which I am sure thought it was doing the job that was necessary of making sure this law did not overreach. These kinds of provisions often come from countries that have none of our respect for law and order, indeed, and for the rights of individuals, and for the importance of making sure that people are guilty before they are convicted. In this clause there is a 7-year sentence for threatening to do something that might have a result of creating a risk to the health of one or more people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c8eacbfc80b4453a14dcb8bdabd348a\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: No, there are two stages.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd11e1438a3446f78c6908b74e8a1fae\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Hang on. There are two stages, as Mr Mapp quite correctly points out, but taking it bit by bit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291f2a2c3ba164ffda2d13f35fe4ce57b\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Mapp.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022210d372e015744288c212c93414fd20d\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry Dr Mapp\u2014yes, Dr Professor Mapp! A threat\u2014\u201Ccreating a risk to the health of one or more people\u201D. Think about that risk. A risk to the health of one person comes through promoting smoking. It comes through a myriad of activities that might be much better intentioned than promoting smoking. There is a risk to the health of one person if, for example, someone is opposed to a particular kind of therapy that he or she thinks harms many, but helps one or a few people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThen we look at the other element required for this offence. It causes \u201Ca significant disruption of one or more of the following things \u2026 commercial activity in New Zealand.\u201D I say to Dr Mapp, let us think about, for example, those who oppose genetic modification. It could easily be that they are hostile to a drug firm that uses or produces a medicine with GM, and want that medicine withdrawn because of their fears about the effect of the technology on a whole range of values in New Zealand. It could be M\u0101ori objecting to it because they believe that it is a fundamental problem simply to interfere with the foetus. The result could well be harm to one or more people. This provision does not have an exception for proper purpose, or good faith, or political debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa3d6aa0deae4612a2ee21445b8b3bd2\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Yes it does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200334effb2e241ff82198aaabf265239\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Where is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022815be2be38ed4f4195c805ac0934cd15\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Section 5(2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f9baffd442343cbb81303cddd492a78\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: That relates only to strikes and lockouts. Typically, this Labour Government has said that if one is in protest, advocacy, or dissent, that does not, by itself, imply the offence. The main provision simply says that there are three elements: a threat, adverse effect to the health of one or more people, and disruption to someone\u2019s commercial activity or a sector\u2019s commercial activity. All of those could be caused in the scenario I have pictured. I would say, coming to it cold, with no more than an hour or two to look at it, if we can think of one scenario in that situation it should be telling this Parliament that this Committee stage in the House should be used to take a much greater care about the potential misuse of this provision. This could well be misused in private prosecutions. This could cause a great deal of misery to New Zealanders who are acting in perfect good faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI mention also in Part 1 the provisions relating to causing disease or sickness in animals. I mentioned that the new section 298A would be capable of being used by antagonists to the introduction of a possum disease, if they feared that that possum disease might also spread, for example, to commercial rabbits or poultry. It is perfectly capable of that use.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022054edaeca24d4da7bc6370f9c2fdb343\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022054edaeca24d4da7bc6370f9c2fdb343\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Listening to the debate, whilst I do recognise and understand the concerns that have been expressed by the various members, this is one area of debate that was given considerable airtime in the select committee process. Many of the concerns that Mr Locke is consistently raising\u2014I give him full credit for the consistency of his views, and for championing of those views\u2014I am perfectly satisfied they have been well canvassed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhilst I can accept and understand fully how he might feel that a particular Government\u2019s propensity to carpet-bomb our entire country with 1080 poison might well be construed by some to be an act that is adverse and likely to cause grave economic damage to our economy, if it were to become public knowledge throughout the rest of the world, and might, in some people\u2019s interpretation, be covered by this bill, it would be interesting to know from the Minister himself how this Government would respond to charges brought against it by people on the West Coast and down south who believed that carpet-bombing the Blue Mountains with 1080 poison is, in fact, an act of economic terrorism. Consider the implications to our international markets, to our meat industry, if the world in general found out that we were dumping hundreds of tonnes of 1080 poison\u2014a product that has been specifically banned and outlawed in the United States. Indeed, in the United States they pay bounties of up to $20,000 to individuals who catch other people in the act of distributing 1080 poison. I can understand that, but I was given absolute assurance in the select committee that the way these subclauses have been couched is only to capture people who genuinely, it is believed by the judges responsible for giving such warrants, do pose a threat to the country, the citizens of New Zealand, and its economic stability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI can well understand how there are many people out there who believe that the mere election of a Labour Government is a threat to the economic stability of this country, and might be construed as an act of terrorism committed upon it by some misguided New Zealanders who voted that way. It might be construed as an act of terrorism committed upon the country by United Party members, who went into one election championing the centre right\u2019s views, and then promptly leapt into bed with Helen Clark in what some people might describe as a gross act of terrorism committed upon this nation. We do say such things with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI understand the concerns expressed by the ACT party and the Green Party with respect to civil liberties, but I am on record as being one who has said on many occasions that we fail to see the wood for the trees when we are focusing on civil liberties. Mr Locke may well say that we are becoming guided by emotion, and we need to take time to pause and consider more widely the implication of clauses 7 and 8. In fact, the checks and balances are most definitely there. If the Minister would care to take a call and allay some of the fears that are raised in the various amendments, it might go a long way to cause some people to reconsider their vote in support of those amendments that have been put forward by Mr Locke. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ECivil liberties are important. They are what separate democracies from dictatorships. I understand that. I understand that we have a duty and responsibility to protect the rights of people and their ability to express freely their disapproval of Government policies. But I am not one who looks upon expressions of viewpoints such as those that occurred during the Springbok tour as being a right or proper way in which those people should have been allowed to demonstrate their views. I look upon the Springbok tour demonstrations, which some people held up as an example when we discussed this bill, as acts aided and abetted by gangs, organised crime, and people who had ulterior motives. If this legislation would have seen many of those people locked up, then I, for one, would have been quite happy about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002237577d6512c04a8c8c1006092c4867bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237577d6512c04a8c8c1006092c4867bb\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E The provisions in this part can relate to terrorism, and in fact they are aimed at dealing with serious terrorist situations that may arise. Equally, they may relate to other outcomes where serious harm is caused that might not be terrorist inspired. It does not have to be terrorist inspired if people are doing significant property damage or harming the health of individuals, to make that sort of protest or advocacy a crime. As Ron Mark mentioned, if somebody smashed up a property in the course of a Springbok tour protest, then he or she broke the law and should face the weight of the law. I say that as a person who was a Springbok tour protester. Protest is an important right in our democracy, but it does not extend to the right to smash up other people\u2019s property or harm other persons. That then becomes a criminal offence. It always has been that, and always will be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhy have we put some of the measures in the bill? For example, why have we put a 10-year offence in for causing disease or sickness in animals? I thought that would have been self-evident. We had a study done jointly by Treasury and the Reserve Bank on scenarios forecasting the effects of a limited foot and mouth disease outbreak. One of the most serious forms of terrorism or advocacy in this country could be to deliberately introduce something like bovine spongiform encephalopathy or foot-and-mouth disease.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232ff815be20049abb9381b7f203e99e0\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Or a threat of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238e17f2c878941ca89ba4aa5980d41f3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will come to the threat in a moment. The conservative estimate of the result of somebody doing that to our country would be a loss of around NZ$6 billion in the first year and a cumulative loss of $10 billion in the second year. When we consider the enormity of that, Mr Locke should propose that we have more than a 10-year maximum penalty for somebody who would deliberately cause such chaos in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI listened to Mr Franks\u2019 examples. I think he was perhaps tongue-in-cheek, but the idea that destroying a mosquito population would bring somebody within the scope of this law is patently incorrect. People have to cause a serious risk to the health or safety of an animal population and cause major damage to the national economy of New Zealand. If Mr Franks can follow through on his example and explain how wiping out the mosquitoes or the possums would cause serious damage, then he might have a point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn relation to clause 7, which is in respect of threats or communicating information about an act that would be likely to have these particular effects, clearly what we are aiming this to do is to deal with the situation that we faced in reality not so long ago with regard to the anthrax hoax. It is a very serious thing, even as a hoax, when people send white powder through the mail purporting that that might be anthrax; or there are the commercially disruptive effects of people saying that they have contaminated a food product on the shelves. Those are forms of terrorism, and crimes. They should be subject to the full weight of the law, and that is what this provision is about\u2014with the safeguards against using those provisions simply against an action because it is advocacy, protest, a strike, or a lockout: those things are not illegal per se. I hope such acts will never be illegal in this country. They will certainly never be illegal under this Government, but when people commit acts that are designed to seriously damage our country, property, and people, then why, I ask Mr Locke, should those people not face the full force of the law?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00226805d6e1de0e41c79b42983831f45ee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226805d6e1de0e41c79b42983831f45ee2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I appreciate the Minister taking the call to explain the reasons why this is important, why it is necessary legislation, and what the intent is. There is no concern from the ACT party about the intent or the need for law in the areas stated. Our concern is about the unintended effects, Law always has unintended effects if it is not carefully drafted, and if there is not a very live concern to look for unintended effects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EDespite Mr Goff\u2019s reference to my flippant remark about wiping out a population of mosquitoes, a far better example was provided by Mr Mark for the New Zealand First party. For example, the white-tailed deer population in the Blue Mountains, or the population in the Hokonuis, is currently under threat from a 1080 attack, through most of that area. Apparently the council that is funding it\u2014or the Animal Health Board\u2014is not prepared to take the precaution of potentially limiting it or using baits that will not appeal to the deer population there. Whatever one may think about the rights and wrongs of the 1080 campaign, it is wrong to leave unnecessarily in our criminal law a new offence that can be used or misused against people who have no criminal intent and who believe that what they are doing is proper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETo be fair, this particular clause states: \u201Cwithout lawful justification or reasonable excuse\u201D. I suspect that a regional council or Environment Southland approval would be seen as a lawful justification or excuse. But what about the councillors themselves? It seems to me that they will face attempts from those who oppose a 1080 campaign to bring them within the boundaries of this; and I think that within the words, it will not be too hard. Taking on board the Minister\u2019s passionate affirmation that the Labour Government would not be attempting to punish someone for a strike, a lockout, or advocacy, that is not the point. Subclause (2) of new clause 307A provides something of an indicator of Parliament\u2019s intent that this provision should not be misused. However, it highlights the fact that there are a range of other activities that should have been similarly mentioned to signify to the courts that the elements of the offence could well be satisfied, yet there should still not be liability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe lawful justification or reasonable excuse will, I submit, be in the eye of the beholder. When passion is aroused, when the drug company, for example, is in the gun and there is demonstrated potential harm to the health of one or more people, even though there is also demonstrated benefit to far more, this provision does not, on its face, require a balancing. For example, that might have been a sensible subclause (3), to enable the court to take into account the motives and the weighing of priorities and the balancing, so that even though a commercial activity is significantly disrupted, and even though there is a risk to the health of one or more people, it would still be justified because there is a balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb823d3364294a5dbcd846b45baeba97\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: What about clause 2?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c1b11235a684bf0b98ace599029bbea\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Dr Mapp that clause 2 by itself is not a sufficient basis for inferring. I am talking not about inference, but actual proof. We could have all of these things. When we have a threat to do an act that is likely to disrupt commercial activity and spread anxiety about the drug companies\u2019 activities, and we have the risk to the health of one or more people, we have satisfied the elements of the offence. I believe that if this Government had been doing its work properly it should have been more alive to the risks and should have been able to come up with better-crafted exceptions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00225caf578990124d35a99364e51279c230\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225caf578990124d35a99364e51279c230\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d96678466ef044c0b5b6eb4149d1dfe8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d96678466ef044c0b5b6eb4149d1dfe8\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have been criticised a little bit in the discussion, and I would like to reply briefly. I appreciate Mr Goff getting up and making some comments. It is very good that he is explaining the position. I disagree with him, because he said that terrorists could be doing these things, but the examples we have come up with\u2014and we could go on and on giving different examples\u2014are from our domestic political situation. The reality is that, apart from the Rainbow Warrior bombing in 1985, there is not a lot of terrorist activity in New Zealand. This provision in the Crimes Act has a general application, including against any terrorist who might happen to threaten, but its application is overwhelmingly in relation to domestic political activity. There has not been a terrorist threat against New Zealand to date that I know of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut there have been all kinds of threats from ordinary New Zealanders. I mentioned the threat of farmers on the so-called \u201Cfart tax\u201D. It is good that Mr Goff brought us back to the 1981 Springbok tour protest. Certainly, if we are talking about threats and not actions\u2014and this part is about threats\u2014there were all sorts of threats before and during that Springbok rugby tour to get involved in disruptive process. The leadership of the anti-tour movement was saying that if the Springbok team came here, there would be disruptive activities, the blocking of motorways, etc., and that transpired. So this provision would definitely have covered the anti - Springbok tour protesters. The blocking of motorways does have a fairly significant effect, as happened at that time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnder clause 6, one does not actually need to disrupt very much to have the result, under section 298B(b), of causing major economic loss to one person\u2014a single, solitary New Zealander, as long as that person is part of a commercial activity of a particular type, or in a particular school, or something like that. This is just about a threat\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7f90523fef345d7983c8fe4651596df\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: Competition does that\u2014causes major economic loss.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f877b17116d44af9c78a1214fe11c88\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. So I think we have to see that this is a quite dangerous provision. I think the Minister said that protests \u201Cper se\u201D are not being outlawed or affected by this, which is a sort of synonym for the \u201Cby itself\u201D provision in section 307A(2), in clause 7. In the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, on both this bill and the Terrorism Suppression Bill, which became an Act, it was made quite clear repeatedly by officials and submitters that \u201Cby itself\u201D did not mean that if one was on a protest or in a strike, and personally did the things that are prescribed in the legislation, one would not be as liable as anyone else; all that that provision is trying to say is that we are not aiming to get at protests or strikes as a whole, but if strikers or protesters happened to threaten to do something that would significantly disrupt a commercial institution and cause major economic loss to one person, then they can be up for 7 years in jail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289741cc331af42eca2e1a345b309b501\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: The court is hardly likely to rule in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9fb5bfac7b458280b4ac13d1ca1556\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister can say that, but it has to be based on what the law says. At the present time, sure, we have a more tolerant climate politically and judicially, but if there is a situation\u2014and I again go back to the 1981 Springbok tour\u2014where passions are raised and people on different sides are saying that those on the other side are bringing the country to ruin and all the rest of it, all the things that Muldoon threw around, then one might get a situation where people are given heavy sentences for just doing a political protest in a situation of great dissent and great concern. In that case, a racist rugby team was being brought to New Zealand and people felt very upset about it, not only because of what was happening in South Africa but because of the impact on race relations in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022e0a876d8237a425985f5c353c5ef9820\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e0a876d8237a425985f5c353c5ef9820\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In the interests of ensuring that history is not rewritten according to people\u2019s foggy memory of what happened in 1981, let me remind Mr Locke, and make it clear to the Chair, what actually happened. But, firstly, I want to thank the Minister of Transport for standing up and taking a call; it is unusual under this Government to have a Minister take a call during the Committee stage, and I really do appreciate it. Let me remind people that if this bill would catch people who protested against the Springbok tour by wearing helmets, carrying shields, and wielding batons, then that is good\u2014it would do what it needs to do. If this bill would catch a person who threatens to fly an aircraft into a packed grandstand full of people, then that is good. That is what this bill is intended to do\u2014to curb threats of terrorism, and to curb acts of terrorism. If this bill would stop people from peacefully protesting outside rugby grounds, holding their placards, chanting their chants, and calling for the rugby match to be cancelled, then I would not be happy, because that is people\u2019s right\u2014to protest, demonstrate peacefully, and exercise their democratic will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe discussed those very problems at length during the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee meetings. I do not share the Green Party\u2019s view that this legislation would curb peaceful protest or peaceful demonstration. But if this bill stops people from hiring the Mongrel Mob to spearhead the front-end of their protest march, which sought to knock down fences, invade pitches, knock people over, cancel a game, and cause massive economic loss, job loss, and loss of a day\u2019s pay to ordinary citizens, then I am not fazed by that, because I do not see any of those actions as being their democratic right. People have a democratic right, fought and paid for with the blood of our forebears in places marked on the wall of this Chamber, but it is not a right to inflict their will upon people by force of arms. That is what I saw during the Springbok tour. We are all too glib at saying: \u201COh, these champions, these heroes, went out there and peacefully demonstrated.\u201D What a load of rubbish! Pull out the videos!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4088fe4b4964c19ac0f3a473a3274aa\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I did, and I was proud to be on the Springbok march.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7cdc2173d8348a0b9e85e7c43e262d9\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, there were people who did. That honourable member might have been one of those people who demonstrated peacefully, but there were people in the front ranks\u2014it can be seen on the replay videos, on the old films, if members want to pull them out of the archives and look at them\u2014who were gang members. They might well have been exercising a democratic right, but some of us believe that they were there for the punch-up, the destruction, the mayhem, and to inflict anarchy upon normal New Zealanders. Some people in this Committee might find some sort of credit or pride in being associated with people like that; well, I do not. If this bill deals with people who will not protest peacefully, then that is not necessarily a bad thing. If it deals with people who threaten to fly an aircraft into a packed grandstand so that a game would be called off, then that is a good thing. But I remain absolutely assured, from the explanations that the select committee had\u2014from the long and lengthy discussion, and from the amendments that were made\u2014that it does not seek to curb one\u2019s right to protest and peacefully demonstrate against laws, Acts, or regulations that the Government may inflict upon us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002260561ee5d6b94bc4bcfb41455e65da47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260561ee5d6b94bc4bcfb41455e65da47\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 7 be agreed to: \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022dff6fd11eaef4e09baea7bdadb902801\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000500\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 7 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000501\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 307A(2) of the principal Act by omitting the words \u201C, by itself,\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221e5f8b17072149698a49d868c62efe75\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000502\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 164 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000503\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022efa9675db065441ca6e004ec2c9aad1e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efa9675db065441ca6e004ec2c9aad1e\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment to clause 8 in the name of Keith Locke to omit that clause is now out of order as it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022de4bb0bc58b34800945a13b1cec31f96\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022508db50f6b084c569037b1bbc3f76d62\u0022\u003EPart 2  Amendments to Terrorism Suppression Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u002201a1eab986354593a944afff6b7eb639\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002201a1eab986354593a944afff6b7eb639\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have a few amendments to this part, which amends the Terrorism Suppression Act. We need to go back, because the amendments in Part 2 relate to the definition in the Terrorism Suppression Act. My amendments will improve the definition, and in so doing, improve the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMy first amendment is to insert new clause 14B, which changes the definition of a terrorist act. At present the definition has two aspects. First, a terrorist act has to be for \u201Can ideological, political, or religious cause, and with the intention to induce terror in a civilian population.\u201D I wish to keep that part in the definition, but I wish to eliminate the section that states \u201Cto unduly compel or force a Government or an international organisation to do or abstain from doing, any act.\u201D As I think was implied earlier in the debate, what does the term \u201Cunduly compel\u201D really mean? Any sort of legal protest action or strike could be seen to be unduly compelling. Governments often feel that they are being unduly pushed around by the Post Primary Teachers Association, perhaps the farmers marching on Parliament, or whoever it happens to be. It would be best to knock out those words and just have \u201Cwith the intention to induce terror in a civilian population\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMy next amendment, which is to insert new clause 14C, deletes section 5(3)(d) of the principal Act. The problem at the moment is that section 5(3)(d) states that an outcome can be \u201Cserious interference with, or serious disruption to, an infrastructure facility, if likely to endanger human life:\u201D Under that provision, one does not have to intend to endanger human life; one could just be performing an action that is likely to endanger human life, so it is best taken out. Again, the provision could apply to major strikes or demonstrations, particularly if they affected hospitals or things like that\u2014one could say that they endangered human life. We want to restrict terrorism to what is said in clause 5(2)(a), which is \u201Cto induce terror in a civilian population.\u201D If that is done, and then followed up by the outcomes being death, or other serious bodily injury, or serious risk to health, then we are getting into legislation what is generally understood to be people\u2019s concerns about terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ETo somewhat repeat the debate we had on the previous part, there is that comfort clause in the Terrorism Suppression Act that says that \u201Cto avoid doubt, the fact that a person engages in any protest, advocacy, or dissent, or engages in any strike, lockout, or other industrial action, is not, by itself, a sufficient basis for inferring\u201D\u2026 etc. etc. Again, I think it would be best to move an amendment to withdraw those two words \u201Cby itself\u201D, so that it is quite clear that people engaged in protests and that sort of thing are not covered by that definition of terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMy fourth amendment relates to United Nations Security Council information. At the present time there is a rather strange provision in section 31 of the Act that states that information from the United Nations Security Council \u201Cis, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, sufficient evidence of the matters to which it relates.\u201D We are just taking as gospel virtually what comes down from the United Nations Security Council. Of course, we all respect the United Nations, but from what I have been able to find out, the Security Council does not have a full legal process when it works out its list of terrorist organisations. It is more a process of some country\u2014most likely the United States\u2014saying \u201Chere is a list of terrorist organisations.\u201D It could also be another country, as that would depend who was the dominant force in the United Nations at the time, or who swung a bit of weight. Those \u201Cterrorist\u201D organisations are rubber-stamped by the Security Council, sent out, and countries like New Zealand might adopt them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022beac1533261e48078cc1141148a8d6b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022beac1533261e48078cc1141148a8d6b2\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I was anticipating in the previous call that Mr Locke would state that he would vote in favour of this part. It is a reasonable request when one considers what the part is about, and it is not really about what he was talking about. This part is about implementing two conventions\u2014one in relation to nuclear material and the other in relation to plastic explosives. I would have thought that even the Green Party would want to put on record that it is opposed to those things. Did we hear that statement from them? Unfortunately, Mr Locke did not say that. He had the opportunity, and maybe he will have a further opportunity, but he needed to say it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe reason that he needed to say it is that it is a statement of one\u2019s values. Are we willing to be upfront and say that the worst forms of terrorism are surely plastic explosives and nuclear materials? Surely, we would say we were against those things. What Mr Locke actually spoke about were various provisions in new clauses 14B, 14C, 14D, and 14E. Those provisions, which were not properly explained by him, are all about revisiting the terrorism Act, and his general obsessions and concerns are there, too. At best, that is peripheral. It might be important to him to talk about that, even if the rest of us think it somewhat irrelevant, but at least this Committee could have been assured. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI would like to think that the vote on Part 2 will be unanimous\u2014118 votes, unless the Progressive coalition turns up\u2014but at least that the people present actually voted for Part 2 as an affirmative statement that in relation to plastic explosives, nuclear material, and harbouring terrorists, we are as one. I know that is an extraordinary concept within this Parliament, but in this country there must be some minimum line or common ground by which we can all say that those things have to be prohibited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240400f984ab247b1930e275a64864f4f\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Does it include the Wild Greens?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8c88294479347708b22923e56a3d23c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: The question has been asked as to whether that includes the Wild Greens. I would ask whether the Green Party is the Wild Greens, because if Green members do not vote for this part, that is exactly what they are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMr Locke has taken one call on issues in this part, but he needs to take another to say that he will vote for the two relevant conventions. After all, one of the reasons the Government introduced this bill to the House was to implement those conventions. They make up an interlocking network of anti-terrorist conventions by the United Nations\u2014an organisation not favoured by everyone in this House\u2014and expresses pretty much universal human consent that certain activities have to be condemned in the most serious ways. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EObviously, National supports those provisions. We are not putting up amendments to this part, but are taking the opportunity to say that, on these issues, we expect all New Zealanders to have a common view and to vote for those provisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022041a70e3f9c14bb28736d837a8f5872a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022041a70e3f9c14bb28736d837a8f5872a\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to put on the record that New Zealand First will be voting in support of Part 2. The two conventions are specifically identified and detailed in the schedule as new schedules 2A and 2B, and they are there for everybody to read. Even the strongest critic of this legislation should see that it is eminently sensible, I would have thought, that we sign up to those United Nations conventions. I take, for example, the Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the Purpose of Detection. That convention seeks to obligate the signatory countries to ensure that plastic explosives that are manufactured in each country contain identifying agents, so that they can be clearly identified by any of the law enforcement agencies that seek to provide security for aircraft, buildings, or anything that may be a terrorist target. Failure to comply with such international standards is to invite acts of terrorism. People who are caught moving, manufacturing, or in possession of such explosives can quite clearly be considered to be people who have only one intent in mind. There is no other reason to utilise such explosives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe provisions in Part 2 that deal with sentencing for offences relating to harbouring or concealing terrorists could, if anything, be criticised as being a little light. The penalty for harbouring a known terrorist is a term of imprisonment not exceeding 7 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d38569b13a8450c8e707e51e5ea86d4\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: But then they\u2019ll get parole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224da0a3d2068645c2bba77904e6eb245d\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: But they are eligible for parole at the one-third mark, so they will be on home detention 6 months shy of 2 years, and then out on parole. That is hugely light. The penalty for the use and movement of unmarked plastic explosives is a $500,000 fine and/or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, which seems eminently sensible to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EFor the life of me, I cannot understand why a party that is so much in favour of a nuclear-free policy would not express its support at the first opportunity for this part of the bill. Failure to express that support immediately brings into question once again that party\u2019s commitment. But we have seen, with regard to the GE issue, that the very same party, when it had the opportunity to flex its muscles and demand that the moratorium be extended, did not do so. It rolled over backwards. And we have New Zealanders being denied access to the Privy Council because the Green Party, it may be said, is not serious about the sorts of policies that its members say they hold so dear. But there is another speech or two to go on this part, and maybe Mr Locke can assure us that he is serious about a nuclear-free policy and support for this part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022ddbd041f453e475fac90f56d988cf685\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ddbd041f453e475fac90f56d988cf685\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E This part is important, for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that it enables us in New Zealand to ratify the last two of 12 international conventions against terrorism. It is important that we do that; it brings us into line with international requirements. We will probably be one of the first countries in the region that has ratified all 12 conventions, and that is something we should be proud of. I think Mr Locke would generally support that. If he did not, I would want to know why. Clearly, we do not want people to be trafficking in unmarked plastic explosives or radioactive materials. One of the major threats to us would be the linking of terrorist groups with precursor materials or actual materials used in weapons of mass destruction. There have to be offences in relation to that. These provisions achieve that end, and I hope that they get widespread support. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe other major change is that the bill gives the Customs Service the power to detain terrorist property. The key thing\u2014and the gap that existed\u2014was the ability of terrorists to literally carry a suitcase full of cash across the border. People who follow terrorist activities or the activities of drug traffickers\u2014and often they are one and the same thing\u2014know that that is the preferred way of shifting assets. We want to get our hands on those assets before the event of a terrorist attack, and not allow them to be used for a terrorist attack. That also fulfils one of the requirements under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373, in terms of the funding of terrorism. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI am against the amendments that have been moved by Mr Locke. He is relitigating a decision already made by the House with regard to the definition of a terrorist act in the Terrorism Suppression Act. The other point that I find quite incredible is his questioning of the sufficiency of the United Nations\u2019 information in relation to the designation of terrorist entities. I say to Mr Locke that he cannot be a part-time multilateralist. Either he is in favour of, and stands behind, the multilateral organisations, or he does not. He cannot criticise others for being unilateralist when it suits them, and then be unilateralist himself. Those designations are made only after proper work is done by an international body, representing 192 countries, and the decisions are often without controversy. Why the member would want to remove that provision from the bill is quite beyond me, unless he does not believe in designating terrorist activities and being able to take effective action against them. Equally, others of his deletions would stop us being able to seize the assets of a terrorist group that was carrying money across the border. We have to seize the assets if there is reasonable cause to suspect that that is the case, and then we have the safeguards to apply afterwards. We cannot do it the other way round, because that would not work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe impression the member leaves the Committee with, deliberately or otherwise, is that he deliberately wants to sabotage efforts that would enable us to stop terrorist activities. It is no good to say that we have not had terrorist activities in New Zealand yet, so therefore we do not need these provisions. We need these provisions to ensure that we do not have future terrorist activities here, to ensure that New Zealand is not the weak link in the chain that can be exploited by terrorist activities, and to meet our international obligations. I thoroughly reject the amendments that the member has put forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022b9f58a827338459ba0e6601f6b2c1a52\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b9f58a827338459ba0e6601f6b2c1a52\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E First off, I would like to clear up a point that others have raised about whether the Green Party supports the bits in this part relating to the Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material and the Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the Purpose of Detection. We do support them, as I made clear in my first and second reading speeches. If members look at the minority report from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee that I authored, they will see that it states: \u201CThe Green member supports those amendments to the Terrorism Suppression Act bringing New Zealand into compliance with the Nuclear Materials Convention and the Plastic Explosives Convention.\u201D The problem I face, of course, with regard to how to vote on this bill\u2014which is a problem a lot of members face\u2014is that while this part contains that very good provision, there are also some very bad provisions. So the Green Party, on balance, will not be voting for this part. But, of course, we welcome the fact that we will be adhering to that convention; this is just a normal problem that confronts members in the Committee stage of a bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI want to complete what I was in the middle of explaining about eliminating the provision that enables United Nations Security Council information to be treated as sufficient evidence for the designation of a terrorist entity. The issue is not that we should refuse to accept United Nations Security Council information and say that it is all bad and all wrong, because clearly a lot of it is not like that. But when we, as a country, receive that material as a result of a Security Council decision, we should then put our own legal scrutiny on it, and ask whether it is right. Sometimes it is wrong. In fact, we have had to amend our legislation, and we are in the process of doing so\u2014it is in this bill here\u2014because stuff designating terrorists that has come through from the Security Council has been found to be wrong. If the UN then sent out another thing saying it was sorry, but it had got things wrong with regard to certain organisations, under the Terrorism Suppression Act we had no way of amending our own designations to take account of the fact that the United Nations Security Council had made a mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have to interrogate that information ourselves and put our own eyes on it, because the process itself is done in New York. In fact, the Minister can correct me and explain the court process whereby terrorist bodies are designated, and whether they have any rights at all to come before the UN. I ask the Minister whether it is a process where there is a serious legal challenge of the evidence at the Security Council level. I do not necessarily think there is such a challenge. We do have to have the right, as supporters of the UN, to be able to interrogate any decision. One of the problems with the United Nations, as the Minister well knows, is that the Security Council can sometimes make wrong decisions, because of its unequal structure and the power, particularly, of the United States, but in general of the five permanent members. One can be a very consistent multilateralist without necessarily accepting the decisions of that organisation any more than we just accept, and do not criticise, the decisions of any political body\u2014for example, of this Parliament. We have to abide by the laws of this Parliament, but we can still criticise its decisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI go on to my final amendment in this series. It relates to the question of customs officers, and the Minister has referred to that. My particular concern is that the New Zealand Customs Service, which is not a skilled political agency of the State\u2014that is not its task\u2014is allowed under this provision to detain property, not only from bodies that are designated as terrorist bodies but also from entities that are eligible for designation. A customs officer may say he or she thinks some property is from an organisation that may at some time in the future be designated as a terrorist organisation, so he or she will snaffle it now. The Minister says that the Government is guarding against all possibilities, or words to that effect. But the reality is that if Mr Franks comes into the country the customs officer may say he or she thinks Mr Franks may be designated a terrorist next week, because the officer has heard some rumours about him, and therefore he or she will seize Mr Franks\u2019 bag. Mr Franks may, at that point, be the head of a big company. The minute that word gets out that his suitcase has been seized\u2014by the Customs Service, not by a political body\u2014on the grounds that he may in future be designated a terrorist, his perhaps multimillion-dollar company is banged dead, because he is a suspected terrorist. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022201435fd663045fca992615737a5d7f9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022201435fd663045fca992615737a5d7f9\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022edb2c19b6c0b4f5fadf49851b87ba049\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022edb2c19b6c0b4f5fadf49851b87ba049\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The Committee stage of this bill produces strange bedfellows, and not only at this end of the Chamber. I was very interested to hear the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, who again, creditably, took a call, to explain the purpose of Part 2 and what the objectives are. I was interested to hear him say, I think correctly, that the primary gain from this measure, and his main pride in it, was that it enabled us to be the first country in the region to sign up to 12 conventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdbadb26b4544dff8513ff27d9643bdf\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: No, I didn\u2019t say that in that context, at all. The member should have listened to what I said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffde0ce9439740188397e4b392390d4a\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I am afraid that is the way I read it. The Minister did explain the substantive reasons for it, but he spent more time gloating at the credit he will get from his colleagues at the United Nations for having been an early signer of those conventions. I ask Mr Ron Mark to think about that. That motive is probably why we have the Mercenary Activities (Prohibition) Bill before the House\u2014the desire to look respectable to people whom most of us would not even want to be seen with; Mr Goff\u2019s desire to be seen holding hands with Yasser Arafat. We are looking at nauseating crawling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI wonder whether any of this is related to the forthcoming visit of the President of China. As I read section 5 of the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, China could argue that its treatment of Falun Gong falls within it. In New Zealand, \u201Cto unduly compel or to force a government \u2026 to do or abstain from doing any act\u201D would probably, to most people, involve an illegal act, some kind of threat of violence, something that all of us would already recognise as completely unlawful, and the definition of a \u201Cterrorist act\u201D simply brings it in. However, we can well imagine that the Chinese, whose President is about to be hosted by Mr Goff, would consider that they were unduly compelled by a bunch of elderly people doing exercises in a courtyard, because for them it is undue to have disagreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce22ccf39b4348e9bf96dbbb592f91a0\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Do you reckon they will have another select committee inquiry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f15ac42779ce489280833e80e4f2b77d\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. For those people, it is undue to disagree with their Government. I say to the Minister that the problem is that, as I read this\u2014and I am anxious to be told if I have misread it\u2014as I look at the elements of a \u201Cterrorist act\u201D, the only one that I can see that would possibly protect us from an anti - Falun Gong type of move is the one in section 5(3) that requires that there be a serious risk to health or safety. My problem is that many dictators argue that they can suppress dissent because it would cause riots. In Islamic countries, they argue that they can suppress missionaries because, otherwise, they would incite Islamists against them. As I read this section and go through Part 2, it does appear to me that the President of China, for example, could call on our Prime Minister to hand over, under the extradition treaty, someone who had done something that in New Zealand would never be treated as terrorism, but under the law of a country like that might well be defined as terrorism, in a cynical act of political oppression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat is why I agree with Mr Keith Locke that this part does raise serious questions about whether it could be misused, despite the very sensible parts of it and the things that we would love to be able unequivocally to support. The fact is the select committee did not look at section 5 of the Terrorism Suppression Act, and did not take the opportunity to modify it to make sure there was a definition, consistent with New Zealand\u2019s respect for human rights, as to what is undue compulsion of a Government. This leaves me with the concern that this provision could be used to seize the cash of organisations or political movements. Governments that we regard with abhorrence, in terms of their attitudes to dissent and their attitudes to minorities, could use it to seize that cash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022e89f7c5acb8d439f85737e5673a99446\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e89f7c5acb8d439f85737e5673a99446\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 164 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 14B be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E14B\tInducing terror sufficient\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\tSection 5(2)(b) of the principal Act is deleted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022415d732155bd41558ce036815c970344\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000547\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 14C be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000548\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000549\u0022\u003E14C\tProtection of protest and strikes\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000550\u0022\u003E\tSection 5(3)(d) of the principal Act is deleted.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f8ecc5da1894940972fbcdf4b9a0fe5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000551\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 14D be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000552\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000553\u0022\u003E14D\tLegitimate protest reaffirmed\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000554\u0022\u003E\tSection 5(5) of the principal Act is amended by removing, after the words \u201Cis not\u201D, the words \u201C, by itself\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225fca76f8c62141e6a26128cc4423f288\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000555\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 14E be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000556\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000557\u0022\u003E14E\tUnited Nations Security Council information insufficient\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000558\u0022\u003E\tSection 31(1) of the principal Act is deleted.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002226d29542201247eb9f9e6dc2f412d2f6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000559\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 15 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000560\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 47A(1) of the principal Act by omitting paragraph (d).\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224e35cd58247148b3892608e2bb6a0bae\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002220033e36f5a14f96a7c9e7fea83a258e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002244498bd7fc9e46cc95c008874c7074ef\u0022\u003EPart 3  Amendments to other Acts\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00222ed675f4a7a14470a26063ff7b0d0df3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222ed675f4a7a14470a26063ff7b0d0df3\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have a few amendments under this part. The first is an amendment to a section of the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act 1978. It is similar to an amendment I moved concerning the Crimes Act, in the debate on Part 1. I was worried about the fishing expeditions that could be launched by the police; that they could get a warrant\u2014in this case, under the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Act\u2014and use it for fishing expeditions in relation to a number of other offences. I will not go over that whole argumentation, because it is basically the same as I used on an amendment to Part 1.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe next amendment I have is to clause 33, which drew considerable discussion by very reputable people in the community, including lawyers and lecturers, etc., who were against this provision. They saw it as affecting a common-law right against self-incrimination. Several people submitted to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee on this clause. The problem is that a search warrant can be gained by the police, under the inserted section, for any offence at all\u2014even the smallest of offences. The constable can enter the home of the person or tenant, and if he or she owns or has a computer\u2014as most people do these days\u2014that police officer can demand to be given access to it and everything on it. The problem with that is that the person has to give encryption devices, passwords, ways to get around firewalls, etc., in order that the entire contents of that computer are made available to the constable, even if the warrant is for the most minimal of crimes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI do not know about other members of Parliament, but I know that most of us have a lot of our lives on a computer. It can have our very intimate correspondence, and often our files go back years. There are hundreds and thousands of communications and all kinds of things on our computers, and a humble police officer going into our places for a small offence could have access to them and force us to incriminate ourselves, which is against that common law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAgain, there is a safety provision. We have talked about these comfort provisions. New subsection (2A) of section 198B, inserted by clause 33, states: \u201CA person may not be required under subsection (1) to give any information tending to incriminate the person.\u201D, but the next two subsections go on to state that if information tending to incriminate the person is on the computer, it has to be provided by that person, who has to give those encryption devices. If general information elsewhere in the apartment, let us say, tends to incriminate the person, he or she does not need to give it. So there seems to be a bit of a contradiction in this provision, and I think it is wisest to abide by the wisdom of the many legal people who submitted to our select committee, and to eliminate this provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EMy next three amendments relate to the tracking provisions in clause 34. I was a bit concerned that the tracking provisions available to the police could be used for virtually any offence, so I wanted the word \u201Cserious\u201D to be put before the word \u201Coffence\u201D, in the new subsection 200B(2)(a). The two really substantive amendments that I want to move came from the Privacy Commissioner, who made a substantial submission to the select committee. He put forward two ideas, one of which relates to these warrants. In particular, when an interception device is put on a person, or vehicle, or whatever it is\u2014interception devices are very tiny things, and can be put on people quite easily\u2014prior to the gaining of a warrant, then there should be some report as to why that happened, because we do not want the police to get into the habit of putting tracking devices on a person prior to a warrant being issued.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022be27606d3f3b4bc991f12a1c9729e52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be27606d3f3b4bc991f12a1c9729e52b\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 of this legislation perhaps caused the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee the most difficulty. The reason\u2014as has been explained in the second reading speeches, and in other speeches\u2014is that this bill goes much broader than just terrorism offences. The three powers relating to the interception of private communications, the use of tracking devices, and the requiring of people with knowledge of computer systems to assist with access to them relate not just to terrorist offences but to other offences, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMr Locke would have one believe that those powers relate to virtually all offences. I say that that is not correct, and he would need only to look at clause 26 to see that it is not the case. The provisions relate specifically to serious, violent offences. Many of those offences\u2014as, no doubt, the Minister will say shortly\u2014relate to terrorism, but they are not related only to terrorism. They relate to other criminal and drug offences of a serious kind, including the full range of cannabis offences. So the term \u201Cspecified offence\u201D is not the broad category that Mr Locke would have us believe. It applies to the serious end of offences. That is why National, after carefully considering the issues, decided it should support those provisions. In the fight against crime, and particularly against serious crime, the police obviously have to have the appropriate powers. That does not apply just to terrorist offences but also to other serious crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ENational\u2019s concern related to introducing those general powers through a Counter-Terrorism Bill. We believed, initially, that it would be better to split the bill into two parts and refer the general provisions to the Justice and Electoral Committee, or possibly to the Law and Order Committee. The Minister and his officials made submissions to the select committee as to why that could not be the case. The essence of the argument turned on the fact that these powers were necessary now to deal with terrorist offences, and the fact that other offences were included was a matter the select committee had to be able to take into account. The Minister\u2019s staff was sufficiently flattering to suggest that the select committee, amongst its personnel, had sufficient expertise to be able to make a fair and proper assessment of the provisions. Indeed, on either side of the table at the select committee there were people skilled in legal issues who were able to make those determinations. So the argument was made and was accepted by the Opposition, and therefore we are supporting those provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EHowever, I would re-state to the Minister our concerns about the titles of bills, so that people are properly informed as to the full extent of bills. I would not like to see a bill presented to Parliament again under the label of \u201Ccounter-terrorism\u201D, or under some such other label\u2014perhaps on a completely different issue, for that matter\u2014that covered not just the things that the title obviously implied but also much broader issues. We would like to think, as a select committee\u2014and we did make reference to this in our report\u2014that the Government has taken that particular issue on board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI want to close by saying that Mr Locke, once again, grossly overstated his case. It is one of those situations where he has produced somewhat far-fetched scenarios, cast doubt on the general integrity of our democratic society and the institutions therein\u2014Parliament, the judges, and the police\u2014and would have us believe that we live in some sort of totalitarian State, or at least if we do not live in a totalitarian State, then all the machinery is there and the agencies of State are just waiting to seize the opportunity to grossly infringe the liberty of New Zealanders. I say that, ultimately, the sense of liberty of a people does not depend on the law but depends on the hearts of the people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002252c2a46d0e1b4a34b0e988917c6485af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002252c2a46d0e1b4a34b0e988917c6485af\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 is the part that really speaks to me of Government incompetence. After all the time the Government has had to get this bill right, it is appalling that the bill is now so technically deficient. This is the part about which the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, in its report, made it plain that it thought that tracking devices are used by only the police and the Customs Service, and therefore it had created a code to govern the use of tracking devices in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen I look at the definition of \u201Ctracking device\u201D\u2014and I have drawn this to the attention of the Minister, but have received no explanation worthy of that description\u2014I see the definition is that it is a device that: \u201Cmay be used to help ascertain, by electronic or other means, either or both of the following: (a) the location of a thing or person:\u201D. That could be a pair of binoculars. A pair of binoculars is a tracking device, as is a telescope, a public surveillance camera, and, probably, a flag attached to a bicycle if it helps one to locate a person or thing. It probably also applies to a sticker put on a suitcase so that one can identify it on a baggage carousel. What a stupid piece of law it is when all those things can be tracking devices and, suddenly, according to the select committee, the only people who use them are the police and customs agencies, and the committee then makes a set of rules that requires them to apply to a High Court or District Court judge for a warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis is the type of law we get when we rush through\u2014under cover of a great need, anti-terrorism\u2014a complete new code to cover something that should be completely lawful. There is no reason on earth why ordinary citizens cannot decide to put surveillance cameras on their own properties to locate things or people entering their properties. There is no reason why people should have to apply to the police or customs to install global positioning system trackers in their trucks, to see whether those trucks are going to unlawful locations. What about the expectation that an employer will keep his or her employees safe and free from harm, and, for example, prevent the use of company vehicles for transporting drugs? There is no reason why a tracking device should not be used by any individual in relation to his or her own property. But this part does not cover that. I have talked to members of the select committee. Dr Mapp has offered no reason, other than that it had not been thought of, to explain why a police flag on a bicycle, a sticker on a suitcase, or a pair of binoculars should now require, as the law provides for, a warrant from a judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen the select committee members said they thought that only the police and the Customs Service used tracking devices, they were clearly wrong. When the select committee members thought they were rejecting the Privacy Commissioner\u2019s nonsense\u2014because the Privacy Commissioner did come up with his typical nonsense about another set of rules on tracking devices\u2014they did not achieve that. The select committee may have thought it was leaving ordinary citizens and the police free to track their own property and to use surveillance cameras if they wished in their own stores or houses. But it appears to me that they have not done so. The commentary on the bill makes the situation worse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have put forward a simple amendment. It is hastily drafted, but I believe that it deals with 90 percent\u2014not all, but 90 percent\u2014of the error in this part. The amendment simply provides that this part does not apply in a way that would restrict the owner or the user of a property from consenting to a tracking device on his or her own property. That should be absolutely self-evident. We have the Minister in the chair when the House is in Committee so that the Minister can respond to this kind of thing at the last minute. We have that precisely so that the Minister can apply common sense and the judgment of reality to law, and Parliament can amend bills before it is too late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00223771c4d27c0e447cb43cc4e5eeb20830\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223771c4d27c0e447cb43cc4e5eeb20830\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to confirm that New Zealand First will be voting for Part 3. But in recognition of the concerns raised by the honourable Stephen Franks, specifically in respect of the definition of \u201Ctracking devices\u201D, and after giving his thoughts some consideration, I would actually like\u2014and I know that the Minister has been in a deep discussion with officials\u2014to hear an explanation as to why we should not vote for Mr Franks\u2019 amendment. I have some concerns about tracking devices. I think that television cameras are actually tracking devices, as well, and I am not sure that I would like to see them specifically excluded. But no doubt there will be some explanation as to why we are where we are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EAs I go back through the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee\u2019s report on the bill, I think there was some concern\u2014and Mr Franks was quite correct; there was quite some considerable discussion\u2014about the use of tracking devices. We did discuss the practicalities of preventing customs officers and the police from immediately placing tracking devices on baggage and on goods that were coming in through our international airports. We accepted that it is not always possible to seek warrants and to gain judicial approval in time to allow us to slap devices on some people\u2014or on their property\u2014as they enter our country. We hear time and time again that the funds for terrorist operations come from anywhere possible, and that drug-running, gunrunning, and those sorts of illicit activities are always a good source of revenue for terrorists. The movement of recreational drugs\u2014which I understand the Greens are not averse to\u2014such as copious quantities of marijuana and other recreational drugs across our borders is of concern to New Zealand First, and specifically if the profits gained from that go towards funding terrorist activities. There have been occasions where such goods have arrived in the country to be picked up\u2014bags and suchlike. We have seen the Minister of Customs announce some rather hefty drug busts in the last month or so, and I give full credit to the Customs Service for those busts. I think we need to be very aware that customs officers need to be able to react promptly, but lawfully, in such instances, in order that we are able to track the movement of goods, and thereby detain and arrest the people involved in those activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBut, again, noting Mr Franks\u2019 concerns, I think the definition of \u201Ctracking devices\u201D probably does need a little further explanation. If we need to include television cameras, then maybe we should do that. I really would defer to the Minister, so that he can offer some explanation as to why his officials do not think we need to amend that definition, or amend that clause, as recommended by Mr Franks. I look forward to an explanation of that from the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u002239d6f28ee06b4513a5dc6ebf97ee97d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239d6f28ee06b4513a5dc6ebf97ee97d6\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022d28d3ae2b58841fbb06f0ee102907670\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d28d3ae2b58841fbb06f0ee102907670\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E When I finished speaking earlier in the debate I was halfway through explaining my amendments, and the amendments proposed by the Privacy Commissioner to the select committee. The first amendment related to the reporting procedure prior to the gaining of a warrant. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other thing that the Privacy Commissioner was worried about was that there was nothing in the bill that made it illegal for ordinary members of the public to track other members of the public, virtually wherever they wanted. He proposed an amendment, which I have listed here, that does make it illegal to do that, except in certain circumstances. Essentially, the amendment to clause 34, to add a new section 200P, states that a person commits an offence who knowingly installs, uses, or maintains a tracking device to determine the geographical location of a person or an object, and, in the case of a device, to determine the location of a person without the express or implied consent of that person, or to determine the location of an object without the express or implied consent of a person in lawful possession or having lawful control of that object. So that would allow, for instance, for taxi companies to use tracking devices. Every taxi-driver who is employed by a company like Co-op Taxis in Auckland or Wellington Combined Taxis knows that those companies have a global positioning system, a tracking device. It is all done with the consent of the drivers. They know when they drive taxis that it is part of their job. So that would allow for legitimate tracking devices, with consent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EBut what the Privacy Commissioner wanted to stop was the proliferation of ordinary citizens tracking other people. It can be done with very tiny, micro devices these days\u2014and they will get smaller and smaller. A person can attach it to another\u2019s jacket, and he or she can track that person for months. One can track which room in a house a person is in, and all kinds of things. That invasion of privacy was what the Privacy Commissioner was trying to get at. He said there should be this general provision. He made the effort to word an amendment, which I am putting forward here today. I think it is important, because this section does involve privacy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe other provision I referred to was a police constable who is holding a search warrant for even the most minimal offence, being able to force access to a person\u2019s computer and being able to force that person to give over encryption devices and passwords. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere were quite substantial submissions to the select committee. One was from Alex Conte, a lecturer in law, I think, at Victoria University. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EHe was very concerned. He went right through all the common law, and how this was an invasion of the person\u2019s privacy and countered their right to avoid self-incrimination. If one is forced to give someone free access to one\u2019s computer, one might incriminate oneself. He did believe that there might be an extreme category of people who are terrorists, and we might need to get into their computers. He did have an amendment that allowed access to computers in that particular case. He was very worried about it, as were many other members of the legal profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI think it is important, and people are saying it more and more in the international debate on terrorism, not to get carried away and bring in all sorts of laws that seriously intrude on people\u2019s privacy or, the other edge of it, to try to protect privacy more. Of course, this section does not amend the Terrorism Suppression Act. It amends the Crimes Act, the Summary Proceedings Act, and the Misuse of Drugs Act. But it does have provisions, like the two provisions that affect our privacy very much. I think we should respect the good work of the previous Privacy Commissioner, Bruce Slane. He was an expert in the field.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E I think most New Zealanders want society to be free of that sort of tracking device. People are worried that, in this modern age, there are systems whereby little devices can be put on someone\u2019s person and from some distance away the person and his or her movements can be monitored. I think New Zealanders want tracking devices to be used only in particular cases\u2014for example, serious drug crimes and such things that require the police to use an array of investigative weapons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022459be03dbf3243f1bd4b4ffffb39cebe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022459be03dbf3243f1bd4b4ffffb39cebe\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I shall answer a couple of points made by members, and will start with a concern raised by Keith Locke. He said this legislation empowers the police to require assistance from a person, where necessary\u2014such as providing the password to access a computer. I put it to Mr Locke that this provision no more infringes upon a person\u2019s rights\u2014for example, the right to silence, or the right not to self-incriminate\u2014than it does to require a person, when the police appear with a search warrant, to actually open the door. This provision is not a dangerous breach of rights. It simply applies the law to meet the needs of modern technology \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EA recent case, about 3 years ago, involved the police physically picking up the computer of a lawyer and taking the entire machine, etc., out of the office block. It would be much more satisfactory if the police, when exercising a search warrant under the law, to access a property to look for a particular product, can access the material on the computer. It is warranted; it is protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMr Locke also raised a concern about tracking devices. I am not sure why he is so concerned about this legislation, because at the moment it is not unlawful to put a tracking device on a vehicle; not at all. It is unlawful, if the police have to enter on to premises or if they have to break, or open, or interfere with something to do that. That constitutes trespass. If anything, this change in law places limits and clear safeguards on the police\u2019s exercise of their authority. So this is hardly a matter of great moment for civil liberties, either. In fact, it goes some way towards protecting civil liberties in a reasonable way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWith regard to Mr Franks\u2019 proposed amendment, I am sure he is sincere in what he is trying to achieve. I have consulted on his amendment. I have talked to parliamentary counsel and I have talked to the Ministry of Justice. Neither the Police nor theCustoms Service raised any of the concerns that the member has. I am advised that this legislation would not require any special act on the part of the police with regard to surveillance cameras. The cameras are not covert. They are there; they are open. Everybody knows they are there. The police do not have to enter on to premises that do not belong to them. They do not have to break and enter to put them up. I am told there is not a problem; that the definition is deliberately kept reasonably broad to take into account technological changes in the future, and that this is modelled on international law\u2014specifically, Canadian law. No concern has been expressed by any of the parties that have some expertise in the matter that the implications of the legislation, as it is worded, and as tracking devices are defined, would be problematic for the Police or the Customs Service.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253bd3bc19efb4ee0af2dc93a5ae6ad75\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Jill Pettis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022768a21be46a04ce289217abe94a911e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022768a21be46a04ce289217abe94a911e3\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am concerned the Minister has simply relied\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c2d2ad21f34350b1a1abdf84959b68\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01fd13d45e5412483512c514e642c07\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Let him go.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d13917829a04683a710fe822e4ab596\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022936e0a31bc074e91a4816cf5faee9efe\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s like a child.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4eb88d82c354897a8c9bbe9a1fa5368\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I believe that the comment made by the junior Government whip in relation to a colleague was unparliamentary, and she should be asked to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221690620bf13a4164983950a4b0f53866\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I never thought that being a mother was objectionable but if it offends the member, I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264247d74e64a4e88957a42c26e9dfd66\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Hon Phil Goff does the Committee the courtesy of explaining or responding to points raised in this debate, and I appreciate that. However, I am concerned that he has misled himself, or has allowed himself to rely on the officials, who are simply saying that because surveillance cameras generally are not covert, then there is not a problem with the definition of \u201Ctracking device\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere is nothing in this legislation that states that this applies only to covert devices. If this tracking device definition stated \u201Ccovert\u201D, then that might have been a relevant point. But it seems to apply to all tracking devices, whether covert or overt. Indeed, as I said, in its terms it probably applies to officers who put a sticker on their suitcase, so they can follow it on the baggage carousel. The select committee took the view that only the Police and the Customs Service seem to use tracking devices, and the committee urged the Government to look at legislation to cover private use of tracking devices. Officials appear to have justified this weird definition solely on the grounds that it is done in Canada. This is hardly an encouragement to New Zealanders, who look at the hoops that Canadians are now being put through by their weird Supreme Court. This is not a comfort to those who believe that people should be empowered to decide what they do with their own property and assets, and how they track their own property. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ETo be sure, it is helpful to stop the police and others from inserting tracking devices that are not wanted. It is quite appropriate that the bill states what it does to govern the use of covert devices by the authorities. But it does not deal with the implication that there now is that if the police, for example, want to put one of their tracking devices\u2014at the request of the owner of a vehicle or a shop\u2014in that shop or vehicle, then the police have to get a warrant. The police should not be under that burden. It is quite clear there is no exception in the legislation. There is nothing that states that the provision applies only where the tracking device is inserted where someone does not know, or where someone does not approve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is a shame the Minister is signalling that he is going to vote against an amendment that would have saved him from this difficulty. As I said to the Minister, when someone has gone through $50,000 worth of cost in trying to get the court to say what the officials say is common sense, I hope the Minister will have the grace to feel embarrassed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022e014ae779d3d45a796b271acfd05785a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e014ae779d3d45a796b271acfd05785a\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 164 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00226f41cedf24de410b91cea34e38585933\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f41cedf24de410b91cea34e38585933\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 26 is out of order because it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 33 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a5e5e2777f6e4a5d8cf1ed3aaa635cd7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000612\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 34 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000613\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 200B(2)(a) of the principal Act by inserting, before the word \u201Coffence\u201D, the word \u201Cserious\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002239d5ba7c006a4476bb68d9e00da73e83\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000614\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 34 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000615\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 200B(3) of the principal Act by inserting the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000616\u0022\u003E(e)\twhether there has been any reliance upon the power contained in section 200G(1) and, if so, a report on the exercise of power and circumstances in which it came to be exercised.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224890de2a78fb4775bac61ce937e2f615\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000617\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to clause 34 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000618\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 200G of the principal Act by inserting the following new subsection:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000619\u0022\u003E(4)\tNothing in this Part affects or restricts the installation, monitoring, maintenance or removal of a tracking device with the informed consent of the owner or lawful occupier or user of the premises or thing in or on which the tracking device is installed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228eaf75711b6e40c7a0a4b6c1c72a2cfe\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022598949d232814223a55f7b8e1ff16335\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Keith Locke to clause 34 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000620\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new section 200P in the principal Act:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000621\u0022\u003E200P Offence of using a tracking device without authorisation or consent\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000622\u0022\u003E(1)\tA person commits an offence who knowingly installs, uses or maintains a tracking device to determine the geographical location of a person or object:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000623\u0022\u003E(a)\tin the case of a device to determine the location of a person, without the express or implied consent of that person; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000624\u0022\u003E(b)\tin the case of a device to determine the location of an object, without the express or implied consent of a person in lawful possession or having lawful control of that object.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000625\u0022\u003E(2)\tSubsection (1) does not apply to the installation, use, maintenance or removal of a tracking device in accordance with:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000626\u0022\u003E(a)\ta tracking device warrant issued under section 200C or renewed under section 200F; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000627\u0022\u003E(b)\tauthority granted by section 200G; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000628\u0022\u003E(c)\ta removal warrant issued under section 200H.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000629\u0022\u003E(3)\tA person who commits an offence against subsection (1) is liable on conviction to a term of imprisonment not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding  $10,000.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000630\u0022\u003E(4)\tWhere any person is convicted under subsection (1), the court may, as part of the sentence, order that the tracking device and any associated equipment be forfeited to the Crown.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002216e35467becc4a43a169b27894adc39f\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 100\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f81e65cf930e45e7a1fdb590432ce217\u0022\u003ESchedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00226bcf4c7d6ea846b5bf7f03d5e06ca90a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bcf4c7d6ea846b5bf7f03d5e06ca90a\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the schedules. There are two schedules here. One relates to the Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material, which is a UN convention, and the other relates to the Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the Purpose of Detection. As has been said before in speeches I have made in the first and second readings and in the Committee stage, the Green Party strongly supports New Zealand adhering to these two important conventions. It is important in relation to nuclear materials, not only as part of the damage to the nuclear environment but also to the peace and welfare of the world, that we do not allow the circulation of nuclear materials, as prohibited by these conventions, and this is quite relevant to some of the political events of today. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EI was reading in the news media\u2014just last week, I think\u2014about Israel\u2019s development of nuclear materials in the form of nuclear bombs. Of course, these conventions go more to the raw nuclear materials. But the nuclear materials being used by Israel to make bombs are now being put on submarines, so Israel now has nuclear weapons on submarines. Israel has been assisted by the United States, according to the informed sources that various newspapers in New Zealand and around the world quoted. The United States Government was complicit in getting those nuclear bombs on Israeli submarines, in contradiction of its declared opposition to some other countries having nuclear materials and being able to develop them into nuclear weapons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere was a lot of attention paid to Iraq. The United States claimed that Iraq was building a nuclear capacity. The inspectors had told the people well before they went there that there was not a nuclear weapons programme under way in Iraq. It had been finished in the early 1990s, through the efforts of the UN inspectors there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOther attention is being paid to Iran and North Korea, and I think rightly so. We do not want nuclear proliferation and we do not particularly want the presence of nuclear weapons in the Indian subcontinent. That is very dangerous, in terms of what might happen in a war between India and Pakistan, or in a major military conflict, if one side or another resorts to nuclear weapons. It made me very worried when the President of Pakistan said, about a year ago, when it had a military standoff, that the only reason India did not invade in a conventional sense was that Pakistan had nuclear weapons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have a really serious problem here. Anything we can do in terms of reducing the existence of these sorts of nuclear materials and their circulation, and their possible development into nuclear bombs, the better. The same applies to plastic explosives. New Zealand is playing a lead role in the area of nuclear disarmament. We should look at it as both a problem with nuclear weapons and a health problem, in relation to nuclear materials themselves. It has come out over the last day. The Hon Bill English made a statement, that everyone read as the National Party moderating its nuclear policy or trying to undermine New Zealand\u2019s policy of stopping the visit of nuclear-powered warships to this country\u2014that he was not recognising that there is a danger in nuclear materials, in the form of nuclear propulsion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhile there are a lot of safety procedures in many of these nuclear power plants, and with nuclear generators on warships, the fact is that there still is a risk if something happens. A British warship has gone aground in the Tasman Sea recently. Ships can have accidents, and if those accidents involve nuclear materials on nuclear waste ships, or nuclear-powered or nuclear-armed warships, it can be very damaging to the environment. We should definitely avoid that sort of thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u0022150252e70776419782dfba52ce53eadf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022150252e70776419782dfba52ce53eadf\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I was not going to take a call on the schedules, but I will do two things. First, I will compliment Mr Locke, because Mr Locke brings to this Chamber the alternative view that people fought and died to allow to exist. I will compliment Mr Locke because he is absolutely consistent. It does not matter what bill comes before the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, if it is a bill that in any way impacts on human rights or civil liberties, Mr Locke is true to form, and regardless of what sort of derision might be heaped upon him and his political party, he will fight for those things he truly believes in. I give him full credit for that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHowever, I am confused when the Green Party votes against Part 2, and then says it supports the schedules. The fact is that the schedules are meaningless without Part 2. Once again, we have one of those situations where members of the Green Party stand up and say that they oppose the lifting of the moratorium on genetic engineering, yet when presented with a golden opportunity to force the Government\u2019s hand and stop it allowing the moratorium to be lifted, they fade into the distance. They give up their vote for the abolition of the right to appeal to the Privy Council and roll over and play dead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHere again they had the opportunity to enshrine their beliefs within this legislation to endorse the nuclear material and plastic explosives conventions, and what did they do? They voted against Part 2. To now stand up and say that they agree with the schedules and endorse everything they stand for\u2014waxing lyrical about the evils of nuclear-power plants and nuclear-powered vessels, and how supportive they are of New Zealand\u2019s nuclear-free policy\u2014means absolutely nothing. Is it any wonder that discerning New Zealanders are thoroughly confused by the positions Green members take? I would have fully understood had they opposed Part 1 and voted for Part 2, or said that they were opposed to the overall thrust of this legislation and voted against the entire bill. But to vote against Part 1 and Part 2\u2014which enshrines the schedules\u2014then say that they support the schedules does not make one ounce of sense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227dcba5251324fb78e76ae9b9ba9d46d\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: How does one implement schedules?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd0f56a159854b4580dc3c4f2830cde3\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Precisely! How does the Government implement the schedules and give effect to those two conventions if it does not have Part 2? I ask Mr Locke to take another call to clarify that for the record, because when we get on the hustings and talk about nuclear policy, nuclear-free New Zealand, and the evils of nuclear-power plants in Australia, Britain, or wherever, Mr Locke\u2019s comments here will be raised to the fore and held against him. I do not think that is fair. He is clearly a very misunderstood person, but the explanations he has given tend to lead us to that conclusion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will be consistent. We will vote for the schedules and for the entire bill. We acknowledge and respect Mr Locke\u2019s commitment to civil liberties and the issues he has raised, but this latest speech of his has certainly raised a great deal of confusion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022177ae0459203458481c14f8bdfba3389\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022177ae0459203458481c14f8bdfba3389\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am hopeful that we can get a bit of clarification about what happens if the status of these conventions is changed, and whether a change automatically carries through into the relevant definitions in the Terrorism Suppression Act. The conventions that define terrorism and terrorist acts for the purpose of the bill appear in the Terrorism Suppression Act to come through in their form from time to time. I may have missed something when I was flicking through that Act, trying to work out the interrelationship between the Act and this bill. The effect of the Terrorism Suppression Act is that the Prime Minister can simply adopt the definitions from these international instruments, and is then able to designate and use them in a way that is outside the reach of this Parliament. I am anxious to hear that the definitions in these conventions\u2014having been put in a schedule and, therefore, presumably, carefully considered by the select committee\u2014cannot be changed by the parties to the instruments without the approval of this House, so as to have an effect on the way they are incorporated in Part 2. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is a relatively straightforward question, and I suspect that there is a very simple answer to it. The definitions are either applied in their form from time to time, irrespective of New Zealand\u2019s adherence to any change, or they are not. Maybe the answer is that they cannot be changed, and that there is a single-party veto on change affecting us. Whichever way it goes, I would be glad to hear that, having solemnly considered these definitions in a bill schedule, a change made by the other parties cannot then bind the New Zealand people and their Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00226f6a7f360a8f40b1a831ba990ccddf75\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226f6a7f360a8f40b1a831ba990ccddf75\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022f9e90a2dc17e47078463e9e50e0a6f5e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f9e90a2dc17e47078463e9e50e0a6f5e\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I want to very briefly reply to Ron Mark, but I thought I explained it before. This problem often confronts MPs, and I am sure that Mr Mark has confronted it before. It is that a bill has a part that has some very good stuff in it and some very bad stuff in it, and members can have an argument voting for or against. In this case, I thought that the powers of customs to seize materials from people who were not yet designated terrorists was a bad part of Part 2, so on behalf of the Green Party I voted against that. However, all along we said that we supported the good parts. That is one of the positive things about the passage of this bill\u2014it has some good material in it, even if there is a lot of bad material, and we support the good material that has come through the process. It is very simple.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ESchedules agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ffddca0e090a4187b701acff0e7547b4\u0022\u003EThe Committee divided the bill into the Crimes Amendment Bill, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 2), the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill, pursuant to Supplementary Order Paper 163\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000650\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00226c3ba164ba4e4dd8862bbc0bcb411b36\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228624f62817c64c0e88e655ddf3ee1766\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c05f413103de45e8beb458bcc81f6e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c05f413103de45e8beb458bcc81f6e79\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Crimes Amendment Bill, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 2), the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill be now read a third time. These are important bills. They reflect New Zealand\u2019s need domestically and internationally to be able to respond effectively to the investigation, detection, and prosecution of terrorist activity. These bills were preceded by the Terrorism Suppression Act, which implemented resolution 1373, and also two international conventions relating to terrorist bombing and financing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bills contain a number of terrorist-related offences such as participating in, or recruiting members of, terrorist groups. They also contain procedures for the designation of terrorist entities and the freezing of their assets. The bills implement two further international conventions relating to nuclear material and unmarked plastic explosives, which are the final two of the 12 terrorism-related international instruments with which New Zealand is required to comply. The other measures in the bills are recommendations arising from a whole-of-Government review of possible gaps in New Zealand law that could be exploited by terrorists, which have become a serious international problem following the attack on the World Trade Center and, of course, more recently in Bali. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn a couple of respects, these bills ensure that New Zealand has in place a comprehensive package of anti-terrorism measures. We are now fully compliant with UN requirements in this area in the event that it becomes necessary, domestically, to deal with planned or executed terrorist offending. The bills include a number of offence and penalty provisions and investigative powers. In addition, the Government is progressing other initiatives that have a bearing on this issue\u2014for example, in relation to border control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bills contain the following new offences to deal with the kind of offending likely to be committed by terrorists: improperly dealing with nuclear material, radioactive material, or unmarked plastic explosives; harbouring or concealing a person who has carried out, or intends to carry out, terrorist activity; causing sickness or disease in animals; intending to endanger the health or safety of an animal population, and causing major economic damage; contaminating products such as food, water, or crops intended for human consumption; intending to harm one or more persons, or cause major economic damage; threatening to do an act that is likely to cause major risk to persons, property, or the economy, and intending to significantly disrupt the civilian population, or infrastructure, or the administration of Government or commercial interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bills make terrorism an aggravating factor for the sentencing of criminal acts generally. When murder occurs as a result of terrorist activity, there will be a presumption in favour of 17 years\u2019 minimum non-parole, and that will be only the starting point. A judge will be able to impose a longer term than 17 years if he or she feels it is justified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bills provide for the following investigative powers to ensure that law enforcement agencies can effectively investigate offences that may be committed by terrorists, as well as other serious criminal offending. Firstly, the use of tracking devices by police and customs officers. There are safeguards around the exercise of this power, such as warrant requirement and obligations to report on the extent to which such devices are used. Secondly, a requirement on persons to assist computer access in the course of a warranted police search by providing reasonable and necessary access information, such as the computer password. Thirdly, evidence of serious criminal offending, including terrorism, lawfully obtained by interception warrant, will be admissible even if the warrant was issued in relation to a different offence\u2014provided that the offence of which evidence is obtained is one for which a warrant could have been issued. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThese investigative powers are not limited to terrorist offending, and there are two very good reasons for this. The first is an issue of principle. Terrorist offences are not a separate class of criminal offences. They are the same acts\u2014murder, bombing, property damage, and unlawful possession of restricted weapons, for example, but committed with a political, ideological, or religious motive. In the criminal law, motive\u2014the reason why the offence is committed\u2014is only relevant to sentence. There is therefore no justification for particular powers to investigate terrorism that are not equally applicable to other serious criminal offending. The second reason is purely practical. It will not always be possible to identify, before an investigation commences, or even during it, whether particular criminal activity has a terrorist motive. Drug smuggling, for example, may occur to finance a terrorist act, but this is unlikely to be initially apparent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe Terrorism Suppression Act provides for the property of designated terrorist entities to be frozen. This bill includes two related measures. It gives customs the power to intercept and detain property crossing the New Zealand border, where there is good cause to suspect that the property is owned or controlled by a designated terrorist entity, or an entity that is eligible for designation. This is to prevent, for example, cash being carried over the border that would be frozen if it were in a bank account. Secondly, the bill provides that the details of already designated terrorist entities can be updated in accordance with new information provided to New Zealand by the United Nations. This is essential for anyone, including financial institutions, who is attempting to reliably identify whether an entity with whom they are dealing has been designated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMany of the submissions on this bill emphasised the importance of allowing innocent persons to go about their lawful business. Unfortunately, it is a reality in these times that terrorism is one of the greatest threats to that right. Quite rigorous measures that have as their goal the suppression of terrorism may therefore be justified, and this is internationally recognised. However, this Government has been careful in the development of this legislation to take into account concerns on the other side of the equation\u2014specifically, the need, in attempting effectively to address terrorism, not to institute measures that themselves would have an unduly restrictive effect on the activities of innocent persons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, this bill ensures that New Zealand has done what is necessary to implement the final two of the 12 terrorism-related international instruments with which we are required to comply, and is therefore fully internationally compliant. The legislation contains offence and penalty provisions to ensure that should a terrorist act occur in this country, we will effectively be in a position to prosecute those responsible. It creates new investigative powers with a view to ensuring that acts of that kind can be detected and prevented before they have a chance to occur. I consider that this bill strikes an appropriate balance between robust and responsible measures to deal with terrorism and protecting civil rights. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae714bfe522b48a5a9c2ab16f40f78bf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae714bfe522b48a5a9c2ab16f40f78bf\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E National supports the legislation, soon to be Acts, and we recognise that it does represent New Zealand adopting a whole network of conventions. As the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade noted earlier, there are 12 of them. I appreciate that some people do have concerns about networks of conventions, but I want to put on record that as a nation we do make common cause with the international community in this. In many respects the United Nations still represents the only effective mechanism whereby the community of nations can come together to represent its abhorrence against international terrorism, and do it by conventions drafted by the most learned international lawyers and specialists in the world. It is right that New Zealand does adopt those conventions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI also want to put on record that I found it truly extraordinary that earlier this evening the Green Party could vote for the two conventions in the schedule, but not do anything that would enable them to become part of the domestic law of New Zealand. If Mr Locke had understood our constitutional framework, he would appreciate that one has to vote for the domestic legislation represented by Part 2 in order for the international conventions to have any effect whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI also want to refer to the fact that, very recently, the leaders of the Asia-Pacific nations at the APEC conference recognised the linkage between defeating terrorism and economic prosperity. The reality is that liberty and prosperity cannot thrive in a climate of fear. The objective of the terrorist is to have ordinary citizens, communities, and nations under the yoke of fear. It is a terrorist\u2019s desire that doing so would create a climate of fear and repression. That does impose a challenge to democratic countries to find that balance between protecting our freedoms through defeating terrorism\u2014and I stress that we have to defeat terrorism to protect our freedoms\u2014but at the same time not legislating away those very freedoms that are the reason we are trying to defeat terrorism. I believe that the legislation does not do that, and that the fears raised by the opponents of the legislation are fundamentally misplaced. They read into the motivations of our community, the police, the courts, and this Parliament that they are agents of repression out to deny the liberty of subjects, rather than serving the interests of our community, and I have to say that is such a flawed approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E National does believe that issues of this nature should be done on a bipartisan basis. It is important that Parliament as a whole expresses our defence of our basic freedoms. Those are things that should unite the parties across the House\u2014the fundamentals of our society\u2014and on those kinds of issues there should be an overwhelming position of support. On some provisions, at least, one would think that there would be unanimous consent. Even if there are some questions, people should be able to put those aside and recognise the bigger goal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI also say that defeating terrorism requires that we work with friends and allies. I acknowledge that the Government has done much of that, but I also say that there are caveats. This is a Government that still believes\u2014and has said so, through the Prime Minister\u2014that there is a benign strategic environment. That is false. The strategic environment is not benign. It does not matter if Government members say: \u201COh, we mean it at a State level.\u201D I ask Government members what they think was happening in the Solomons. Was that just a few people off to one side, or was the very integrity of the State of the Solomons at risk? Surely they would recognise that it was. Similarly, in relation to Afghanistan, the very integrity of the State was at risk. The issue of a benign strategic environment is not just about a few extreme elements; it is about the fabric of unstable States threatening other nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt is necessary that we look at the tools we have to defeat terrorism. I refer to our Defence Force, which is not properly equipped. It is all very well for the Government to say: \u201CWhat about when National was in office during those 9 years? You didn\u2019t do enough.\u201D The first thing members should recollect is that the beginning of the National Government represented the end of the cold war. Every single Western nation\u2014in fact, probably every nation\u2014reduced defence expenditure during that period. Most nations then learnt the lesson that they had gone too far, so by 1997-98 there was a build back. We are different; we have not done that. Our defence expenditure is now only 1 percent of gross domestic product, and going down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMembers on the Government side of the House may say that we are still doing enough, but let me put these facts to them. Earlier this year, the Government deployed the two Anzac frigates to the Gulf of Oman. We all saw the photographs on television of the two frigates, side by side, in the Gulf of Oman. That meant that there were no frigates at all in New Zealand. The point of that is that the deployment was about defeating terrorism, and we denuded New Zealand. Surely, a sensible Government would have taken some lessons from that and realised that it had gone too far; that our defence assessments of 1999-2000 were done in a different environment, and we have to spend more. The Army is a similar case. Is a two-battalion Army, which was perhaps realistic in the 1990s, realistic today, given the pressure on our defence forces?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe do say, on our side of the House, that passing the legislation is a good thing\u2014we need it\u2014but we also have to take the practical steps to build our defence forces, so that we can work effectively in cooperation with long-standing friends and allies\u2014Australia, the United States, and Britain\u2014and so that we can make the proper contribution. Far too many people are saying that we do not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI close on one point. Why has the Government not designated Hizbollah as a terrorist organisation, when Australia has done so? Why have our two countries, on something as fundamental as who is a terrorist, taken different paths? So I want to say, yes, the legislation is good, but we do have serious caveats and things of that nature. The designations and the state of our defence forces say there is a good deal more that has to be done, if the Government is serious about defeating terrorism in concert with friends and allies. We look forward to when there can be a bipartisan approach on those things as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00225523355a08c44ff280553b0d1a6a948e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225523355a08c44ff280553b0d1a6a948e\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this bill and I am delighted to commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00226b883f1e4067405faf02ec66059487c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226b883f1e4067405faf02ec66059487c0\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That speech is what rates some MPs, by the Sunday Star-Times\u2019 account\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6d8e414bd7541e5872a3f65f9d28047\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279df43fd947345adbcdcb7c92454a407\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that speech was about the bill. This bill is the Counter-Terrorism Bill, and I note with absolute amazement that the previous speaker had only about six words to say about it. New Zealand First has worked with Government members on this bill, and I say it is worth considerably more than the six or seven words that the member had to say about it, but I guess that is what will get him voted back in again next time round. I have to say a couple of things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda9c3026950440e9906aa7de7760f81\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that member\u2019s electorate majority?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e51d11f611454cc8ab25726dc3a9269d\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Since the member asked\u2014watch this space. That sort of arrogance from Alf Garnett over there will bring about the demise of the Labour Party. That member can take full credit for the diminishing vote that is occurring to his party right now, and the vote that is swinging across our way. While that member sits there throwing comments like that across the House, he is displaying his absolute, upper-class arrogance, which he is becoming renowned for. He is so out of touch with traditional Labour people. We will reap the benefits, and I say to that member in response to his question, watch this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe87d044da074970808a35efa7fe15f7\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Winston and his national socialist party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccbb482964d34194bbe42da9769b1a5c\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member himself is a representative of the people\u2019s democratic socialist republic that they are ramming down the throats of ordinary New Zealanders. That member is displaying precisely the sort of arrogance that we love to see because it is helping us close the gap, every day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1fec58bd54b4e718d8780f21f94e784\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d628199cd4a84c81b38f43d2f47e7ad6\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: He challenged me across the floor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a486e9fe90f148bb99c4c6dc6573ef97\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I know, but that is no reason to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2e8627cc2c04afe868ff9c5a1b5a0fe\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: OK, but he deserves a good slap. This bill is good legislation. We have supported it all the way through. It is quite lengthy. It is over 2 years since 9/11 and the attack on the twin towers. It is just over 1 year since the bombing in Bali, so I have to say to those members who said that this bill has been rushed and is being passed in haste, I do not think so. There are many who would say that, given the spate of bombings that we have witnessed in the last 6 months around the world, in actual fact the bill has been a little slow in coming\u2014but it is here. It adds to the Terrorism Suppression Act, which dealt with financing and bombing. It deals with such things as threats to persons, threats to the economy, and the harbouring of terrorists. It increases powers of investigation, powers of search, and powers of seizure. It bestows upon authorities greater privileges and rights in terms of tracking and monitoring. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EHowever, there is one thing that I have to say. This entire piece of work will be meaningless, and this Government will be judged over the next period\u2014however long it remains in power, probably 2 years, maybe 1\u00BD years\u2014on the effectiveness of this legislation at the front end, at the sharp end, if enough resources are not made available. We have seen a lot of legislation go through this House\u2014legislation that we in New Zealand First have supported, such as this, which we felt was good legislation\u2014but which has been rendered toothless and meaningless by the Government\u2019s inability to place in the hands of the people responsible for giving effect to this legislation the adequate resources to do so. We sit here and wax lyrical about drug dealers, drug traffickers, and how they finance terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200310212726356b25074f59bdaaef52c690b202000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 10 p.m to 9 a.m. (Wednesday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00228217de7e0f754f9fbcec462159fdba67\u0022\u003ETuesday, 21 October 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cc7e66e84fd840f19200f1b9d395b373\u0022\u003E(continued on Wednesday, 22 October 2003)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022462022d319164ca5a62461f1f6b4842e\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a3f9db843a94344ae56b79496696ce9\u0022\u003EThird Readings\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000004\u0022\u003EDebate resumed on the third readings of the Crimes Amendment Bill, the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill, the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 2), the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill, the Sentencing Amendment Bill, and the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002251dd641798084c09b8356a8b39ed06ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251dd641798084c09b8356a8b39ed06ff\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I seek the leave of the House to table today\u2019s Garrick Tremain cartoon. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b561ece7614b426bbf9ef2e0f46d7826\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002298dd20802c4747acacaa18d44a44a5a1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298dd20802c4747acacaa18d44a44a5a1\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am at a loss, because I have not had the opportunity to look at that cartoon. No doubt I will, as soon as I sit down. When we adjourned last evening I was saying to the House that we have seen a lot of legislation go through on whose passage New Zealand First has indeed supported the Government. But much of that good legislation becomes meaningless if resources are not put in place so its intent can come into effect. One of the things that worries me about this legislation we are supporting right now is that many of the agencies with primary responsibility for monitoring terrorism, for ensuring the security of our nation, and for helping us live up to our international obligations\u2014I ask Mr Tisch to blow off and have his chat down the other end, please\u2014and I think that most of the nation\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1b92b457b744f97be892e941c9b3d1d\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: I was going to say that I am the whip and I will talk to my members as I wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc29df6968be4e61adaa8077b0950125\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: Be nice to them; they are very bruised today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022244e1e4ef6a940cd843b29fc92686245\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, no deals, Ron!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002260991ce9064f440aad3eb6df14fc099d\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. That is fine. I just find it a little rude when people stand in the aisles and have conversations in such close proximity to someone who is speaking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219658614ea77435cb872643ec0f22ebf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the whip to go back to the whip\u2019s seat, and talk there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f38906024104b6aa692a66065dd98d4\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I will be looking at a couple of agencies, and watching the estimates for the next Budget to see how they have fared. I will be looking at the Security Intelligence Service to see whether its budgetary increases reflect its new responsibilities. I will be looking at the Customs Service, at the border patrol in particular, and at the ministry responsible for them. The greater provisions included in this legislation and the greater powers being extended to the people concerned are necessary in this new climate of instability, but tracking devices and the ability to monitor people who enter this country for suspect purposes with goods considered to be illegal or suspect, will be worthy or able to be utilised only if the customs people at our borders have the staffing, the experience, and the resources to carry out that work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe talk about the Defence Force. It is one thing to tell the world we are signing up to United Nations conventions, then ratifying those conventions and passing law to bring them into effect in New Zealand\u2014all in the interests of enhancing security and playing our part in the war against terrorism\u2014but that situation is somewhat questionable when one looks at the state of our defence forces. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe have an obligation\u2014indeed we have now told the world we are prepared to play our part internationally in countering terrorism\u2014to ensure that we have a Defence Force of the size that makes it a meaningful and valuable contributor to that cause. I look at the state of our infantry battalions, which are running at below half strength, I look at the state of our staffing right across the board in the Navy and Air Force in particular\u2014when for 6 months of 1 year we could not even keep Orions in the air\u2014and I have to say that the Government is falling flat in those areas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EIt is one thing to buy 105 vehicles at a cost of $750 million, but it is another thing when we do not actually have the people to crew those vehicles. I guess what I am saying is that it is good legislation. It is necessary, and New Zealand First supports it whole-heartedly. But the proof will be in the eating of the pudding, and that proof will be seen, one way or the other, when we examine the Government\u2019s performance in its finances, budgets, and allocation of resources to those parties responsible for implementing security measures to protect our people and the interests of our trading partners, friends, and allies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022995e4aa63a9e47f7b8e5a57bcc8517e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022995e4aa63a9e47f7b8e5a57bcc8517e4\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is unfortunate that this legislation seems to be going through with only the Greens opposed to it, although ACT supported some amendments to reduce its undermining of our civil liberties implications. It has been easier to put this legislation through Parliament because of the original title, the Counter-Terrorism Bill, when in fact there should have been two bills, one called the Counter-Terrorism Bill amending those bits of the Terrorism Suppression Act relating specifically to terrorism, and the other something else\u2014the \u201CCrimes Amendment Bill\u201D probably, because it amends general criminal legislation. The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee at one point was thinking of dividing the bill into two bills, but unfortunately at the end only the Greens supported that course. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is important that we realise that most of the material in these bills is in the nature of amending criminal legislation, and would have had greater scrutiny from the public\u2014and I think from Parliament\u2014if the legislation had not been down as an anti-terrorism measure. The context today is that there is a very strong push, particularly from the Bush administration in the United States, to put everything in the framework of counter-terrorism and to undermine a lot of our civil liberties. Of course, that goes to the very extreme in the US base at Guantanamo Bay, where people have been held for a couple of years without any charges or trials, and not having access to lawyers, their families, or anything else. We have seen this phenomenon just this past week at the APEC conference, where there was the big Bush administration push to turn APEC into some big counter-terrorist organisation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere was some resistance from many ASEAN countries to that. They wanted APEC maintained as it has been, devoted to trade and other issues. In most countries in the world, and I think South-east Asian Governments are reflecting this, people see the prime issues confronting them not as the danger of non-State terrorism\u2014even though there is that problem in parts of the world, particularly the Islamic world\u2014but as poverty, the right to a roof over their heads, the right to enough food and clean water, and the right to have a decent education and basic human and political rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIn some ways, the manner in which this anti-terrorist campaign is being conducted internationally makes these situations worse. If we look at Bali, where we have just commemorated the very tragic deaths of so many people in the terrorist bombing a year ago, we see that the economy in Bali has declined 40 percent. Helen Clark says that that is an illustration of how terrorism can affect the economy, but how has it actually done that? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EOne of the problems is that Bali is not one of the parts of Indonesia with a history of terrorist bombings, although well before September 11 there had been the odd bombings in Indonesia over a long period, in Java in particular\u2014often promoted, as it turns out, by the Indonesian military and agencies they support like Laska Jihad, but Bali had been immune from terrorism. So there has been only this one incident. Unfortunately we have Governments like New Zealand\u2019s, through their travel advisories, saying: \u201CDon\u2019t go to Bali. Don\u2019t go to Indonesia.\u201D That has been what has pushed the economy of Bali, of other parts of Indonesia, and of other countries, downwards. If we are serious about supporting these countries\u2019 development to overcome their problems, we should not be adding insult to injury by allowing those travel advisories pushing New Zealanders not to go there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWhat is happening is an exaggeration. It is not putting in a proper context the terrorist threat that does exist. It exaggerates it and takes a uni-dimensional approach to terrorism, simply a law-enforcement approach, rather than seeing what underlies it and trying to remove the social causes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E This results in tragedies such as we have seen in the case of Ahmed Zaoui, whereby State institutions in New Zealand\u2014like the Immigration Service, the police, the SIS, and the Customs Service\u2014are geared up to fight terrorism, because they have emails coming in from their counterparts internationally, particularly from the United States, saying that there are terrorists everywhere, and under every bed. Then they say they have not been able to find any terrorists, because there has not been a terrorist in New Zealand since French secret service agents came and bombed the Rainbow Warrior. A chap called Ahmed Zaoui arrived in New Zealand as an asylum seeker, under his own name, and there was something on the computer from the Algerian secret service, or the French secret service\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8357cb61c0440987d685a3d803728a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please come to the thirds reading of the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226014de28e86c4c98b60ff1c9e7b350df\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: This is relevant because this legislation contains amendments to the Terrorism Suppression Act, and the whole question of how we approach terrorism is very relevant to it. Mr Zaoui arrived in his own name, our authorities thought we had a real, live terrorist because there was something on a computer somewhere, and they put him into solitary confinement for 10 months and imposed a security risk certificate on him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe are left with a situation\u2014and this is the problem with the Terrorism Suppression Act that we are amending today\u2014whereby a secret process ensues. In the case of the Terrorism Suppression Act, it is the secret process of designating a terrorist without a great deal of legal recourse. There is an appeal procedure to the Court of Appeal on points of law, but basically it is a \u201Ctrust us\u201D situation, which is the same situation that applies to Ahmed Zaoui. We are asked to trust the SIS to get it right in secret, the Minister of Immigration to get it right in secret, and the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security to get it right in secret. That is not really good enough if we are to protect human rights. We know that the Refugee Status Appeals Authority\u2014which is a more public body that did its own determination over many months, and wrote a 223-page report\u2014said that this guy had a completely clean bill of health, that he was a democrat and an elected member of Parliament, and that he should be allowed to stay here as a refugee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe problem arising in the Terrorism Suppression Act\u2014which this bill amends and reinforces with \u201Charbouring\u201D provisions etc.\u2014is that this process, in relation to designating terrorists, relies primarily on classified information. The same thing applies under this Act as applied in the Ahmed Zaoui case, in that we are told that we, and Ahmed Zaoui, and any person who might be designated a terrorist under the Terrorism Suppression Act, cannot have access to this classified information in any shape or form. The prime reason given is that the overseas agencies that provide this information would not provide it if any of it were made public. So we do not even have a process to interrogate, from our own values and our own legal process, whether this information could be kept secret. It is being determined, according to that definition, by the overseas agencies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EEven if the classified information stated that the person\u2014Mr Zaoui, or whoever it was\u2014played soccer last week, if the overseas agency said that the information is classified, then it has to be kept classified, under this definition. We cannot go down this track. One of the problems is that under this terrorism legislation there are not the checks and balances in the system. The debate in relation to the intelligence services in America and Britain over the weapons of mass destruction shows that. These institutions of the State tend to reinforce each other\u2019s erroneous determinations in this climate of anti-terrorism, rather than correct them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EUnfortunately this bill gives the Customs Service\u2014which is not supposed to be a police agency\u2014greater powers, in this respect, to detain material it thinks might belong to some person or group that may be designated terrorist at some time in the future. That can have very harmful effects on the person or body whose materials are seized. If the information gets out that someone is a suspected terrorist, there can be very damaging consequences. That came up in the Zaoui case too, where the Customs Service interviewed Zaoui at the border\u2014not the Immigration Service, not the police, but the Customs Service\u2014and got it all wrong, as the Refugee Status Appeals Authority found. The Customs Service said that Mr Zaoui had admitted he was a member of the Armed Islamic Group, when in fact that was completely wrong, as the Refugee Status Appeals Authority found out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe problem\u2014and this bill reinforces it\u2014is that we are seeing something like the homeland security push by the Bush administration to link up the immigration, police, and customs agencies in this anti-terrorism drive, in a way that is undermining our civil liberties, in legislation and in practice. We are now seeing examples of this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u002262f51f9e08b84a94ac4069cec3098ece\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002262f51f9e08b84a94ac4069cec3098ece\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I rise to support this counter-terrorism legislation on behalf of United Future. I shall attempt to speak with just a hint of wisdom and a lot of brevity, because much has already been said. Before I start, there are a few things I would like to mention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that Keith Locke from the Green Party has been incredibly consistent, as has been pointed out by others, but I think he has been consistently wrong. The idea of separating the original bill into two, along the lines that he suggested, is ridiculous, because there are strong links between terrorist activities and organised crime. As has become increasingly obvious, there is a blurring between the two. Organised crime, as with other avenues such as State sponsorship, is increasingly becoming the means by which terrorists secure funds to carry out their activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIf we want to do our part in the international community and do our bit to protect the New Zealand public, we must effectively legislate the means by which we can implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373, adopted on 28 September 2001 following the abominable terrorist attacks against the USA. No country is safe, and we cannot hide from the rest of the world. We cannot stick our heads in the sand. The Bali attack was in our backyard, and we have to be concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThis legislation will complete the Government\u2019s response to the very real security threats that we have become aware of\u2014increasingly so since the September 11 attacks. Following on from the Terrorism Suppression Act, this is very much an enabling bill. It will provide the legislative framework necessary for the agencies charged with investigating and preventing terrorist activity in New Zealand to carry out their investigations effectively, and to prosecute offenders. Given the ongoing worldwide effort being put into the war on terror, it is essential that New Zealand pulls its weight and contributes to the counter-terrorism effort in its own backyard, lest we become a soft environment for terrorist organisations, and a consequent security liability to our friends and allies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EEvery party in Parliament supported this legislation through its first and second readings, except for the Greens. Apparently a rigorous and robust approach to terrorism is not required on their planet. I guess it is a very good indicator that the rest of us are probably on the right track. I suppose good intentions and a bit of positive thinking must be enough to get terrorists to change their minds and their thinking, and become peaceful organic farmers, instead of unconscionable murderers in some far-off place\u2014and sometimes in a not-so-far-off place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EUnited Future, on the other hand, is not willing to risk the safety of New Zealand citizens by indulging in a bit of wishful thinking and anti-American ideology. We also do not agree with the standard line that this legislation will somehow violate our civil liberties. It certainly appears to have enough safeguards built into it. For example, under this legislation, any information intercepted by the law enforcement agencies through the use of electronic listening devices may be used against an individual or organisation in court only if it was collected under the auspices of an interception warrant. The use of such warrants is also limited to certain offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThis legislation implements in domestic law the requirements of two international conventions relating to the physical protection of nuclear material and the marking of plastic explosives. I think those two conventions really need to be highlighted. Those are the final two of the 12 terrorism-related international instruments that New Zealand is to ratify, and with the passage of this legislation we will be fully compliant with UN requirements. The legislation also contains new offences designed to deal with terrorist-type activity. It will be an offence to harbour or conceal a person who has carried out, or intends to carry out, terrorist activity. It will be an offence to endanger the health or safety of animal populations, thereby causing major economic damage, and in New Zealand that is a very important ingredient of the bill. The contamination of products such as food, water, and crops intended for human consumption is something that is basic and fundamental. It will be an offence to threaten or disseminate communicating information about an act that is likely to cause risk to the health or safety of the public, cause major property damage, cause economic damage, and disrupt civilian populations and infrastructure, including the administration of government, and commercial interests. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI support this Government\u2019s efforts to combat terrorism, as they are based on sound common sense and are neither too heavy-handed nor too soft. This bill is the final step in that process. What we cease to remember sometimes\u2014and certainly this is true of the Greens\u2014is that the very liberties we are now able to enjoy have come at the price of the blood of people who are now buried, having fought for those rights. The Green member would then spit on those graves and use that against the very people who presently threaten our liberties. That is something we cannot tolerate and cannot allow. We commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00226cc89018a0cc4613881e3a901bbe869e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cc89018a0cc4613881e3a901bbe869e\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party in the third reading debate of the counter-terrorism legislation. This legislation has useful provisions. It addresses matters that any Government of any stripe anywhere in the world should be concerned about: deliberately infecting animals, deliberating terrorising people with bombs or threats to bomb, sending diseases through the mail, threatening the economies of whole countries, and frightening away tourists. Those are all things that, of course, the law should be concerned about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EACT\u2019s difficulty with this bill is that existing law covers some of those issues. The existing law needed to be reformed, supplemented, and added to. But what we have instead are poorly drafted provisions. In some cases they could turn innocuous behaviour into what is deemed to be terrorism, in a way that will attack essential liberties. Though I do not share the foreign policy ideas of the Greens\u2014in fact, I deplore what, I think, is their wilful ignorance of evil in many areas, and their support of people who are evil\u2014I do share their concern that one man\u2019s terrorist is another man\u2019s freedom fighter. If we think, as New Zealanders, of the various causes we have supported and the peoples we have been worried about just in recent history, we do not need to go too far back to find examples of people who could have been categorised under some of the definitions in our legislation. We can think about the people of East Timor, the people now in Aceh, those who might have tried to oppose the regime in North Korea, and those who have struggled against cruel domination in Tibet and Rwanda, and about the struggle of some Iraqis against Saddam Hussein. All those people could have been categorised as terrorists under some of the definitions in the Terrorism Suppression Act, which this legislation is a supplement to, and in the terms of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ENew Zealand should not be putting itself into a position where it may have to hand over, under extradition treaties, to regimes that we share no values with, people who are accused of activity that would not be an offence in New Zealand. This legislation does not, as far as I can tell, have the proper protection that a year-on review of our counter-terrorism effort should have. We should be making sure that nothing in this law could require a New Zealand citizen to be handed over to any other body for activity that New Zealanders generally would consider not to be an offence. This legislation has no overriding protection of the sort of idealism that sent some New Zealanders to Spain before the war in 1939. General Franco, as I read this legislation, could have invoked provisions that we have put into our law to get people handed over who raised funds for the International Brigades. That is quite wrong. It does not do, as Mr Alexander for United Future has done, to simply recite a list of objectives and a list of horrors, to tie the objectives and the horrors together, and to say it is invalid for parliamentarians thereafter to question the wording of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EUnfortunately this legislation is typical of the sort of law we get from Mr Phil Goff. This is absolutely typical of the stuff that comes out after he has made a vein-popping speech about a mischief or an evil. Then we get technically poorly drafted stuff, without regard for the unintended consequences. In this case, the legislation is open to misuse. This is a \u201Ctrust us\u201D law. If we look at what the Government is actually doing about countering terrorism, we see that it is a paper change. That is hypocrisy. It takes us, in some areas, in the wrong direction. As Ron Mark from New Zealand First said, there is no real commitment to genuine defence. There is a huge commitment to trotting around to every commemoration of a previous generation\u2019s efforts. There is a huge commitment to showing up and trying to curry political favour with the military, by giving medals and speeches. But when it comes to real commitment, to the sort of investment that is required for a country that wants to be able to defend itself, we are not there. We are reneging on our arrangements, reneging on treaties, and relying\u2014bludging\u2014on our neighbours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI draw no comfort whatsoever from the requirement, as a defence against wrongful prosecution, that the Attorney-General\u2019s consent be obtained. The Attorney-General, under clause 5, does have a role in preventing misuse of this law. That, in itself, is an admission that this law can be misused. Leaving that in the hands of an Attorney-General who has shown herself unable to recognise where she should be standing up for the rule of law against her colleagues means that I take no comfort from that as a protective device, whatsoever. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis is a Government that, in response to my written parliamentary questions about immigration, told me there is no security criterion in determining immigration policy. I wrote to the Minister of Police, asking whether the police had provided any advice or information, and got no material in response. I wrote to the Minister of Immigration and asked, if we are so committed to counter-terrorism, what the Minister of Immigration was doing in terms of immigration policy to ensure there was not a population sea for terrorist fish to swim in. I was told that that was not one of the relevant immigration criteria. I wrote to the Minister of Justice to see whether there had been any policy work done on that issue. I was told no. Once again, this Government is so politically correct that it is jumping to the order of the United Nations. There are twelve conventions that Mr Goff is so proudly complying with. They will put into our law provisions that can be misused, and the only protection we have is that a prosecution may be stayed by the Attorney-General. The Government is so politically correct that sovereignty means nothing when it comes to the United Nations, although it meant everything, of course, when justifying the Attorney-General\u2019s ending of our Privy Council appeal rights. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis Government thinks so little of genuine threats to sovereignty that we accept people from any country in the world, without regard to the security risk that that population might create. It appears that there has been no attempt by the New Zealand Government to address the real issues that the counter-terrorism legislation should have been addressing, which is how to deal with populations that do not share our values, that despise our tradition of law and order, and that think it is wimpish to be worried about civil liberties. This Government has no policy whatsoever to restrict the entry of people with those values. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWe voted with the Greens on a number of features of this bill, and one of them was a concern about the tracking device code. We voted as we did because that code goes absolutely against the Minister\u2019s rhetoric. That code restricts the use of tracking devices by security personnel, and makes it more difficult to track terrorists. That code does nothing about the kind of tracking that the Green member was concerned about\u2014that is, the tracking of people by putting a device on their property or on their cars, without their consent, by people other than the authorities. In other words, it handicaps the authorities, and does nothing about other kinds of illegality. But, at the same time, it does not allow the police to cooperate with property owners. The tracking device code appears to prevent someone\u2014a policeman\u2014from using a pair of binoculars without a court order. That is pathetic. Without a court order, it would prevent the police from sticking labels on their own suitcases to identify them when picking them off the baggage carousel. It would prevent the police from tracking their own vehicles, without a court order. That is just typical of what happens when we have a Minister who is so determined to curry favour with his United Nations masters that he will copy something from Canada, something from a convention, and give no attention to what is really required: a law to ensure that tracking devices can be used by anyone who wants to, on his or her property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u0022be3c515b82c14970a6817a0fef4f4e81\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022be3c515b82c14970a6817a0fef4f4e81\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E The Progressives went through this legislation thoroughly with our coalition partner, the Labour Party, and agreed that it should come to Parliament. We were very keen that it should go through the select committee process as steadily as possible, without rush, so that it could be scrutinised very carefully. We were in agreement that there was a mischief to look at\u2014that is, whether criminal activity that is terrorist activity or illegal drug activity is easier to carry out without this legislation. My opinion, which I gave to our Progressive caucus, was that, on balance, we could do without this legislation and that the present Crimes Act was sufficient. That was the view of Matthew Palmer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EOn another level, though, there is a need to ensure that every loophole is closed, and there is a need, internationally\u2014for all countries, not one just particular country\u2014to show that New Zealand is serious about its laws detecting wrongdoing, in terms both of criminal terrorist activity and of drug taking. Also, during the select committee process a number of safeguards were put into the legislation. The legislation has clear definitions in respect of the legitimacy of political protest and activity. That is good. It has clear definitions to uphold the right of workers to strike, and it has clear safeguards in terms of the judiciary\u2019s oversight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThe ACT party and the Green Party had a number of amendments that I agreed with, and the Progressives were willing to vote for them as further safeguards. In dialogue I had with my colleague Phil Goff, we agreed we would look at those amendments. If the ACT party and the Green Party had originally supported the Progressives having a proxy vote when our members had to be away on other business, I would have recorded our vote for those amendments. Unfortunately, those parties did not support the Progressives\u2019 two members being able to have a proxy vote in the House when they were attending to other business. Last night, in relation to drugs, I attended a debate between Nandor Tanczos, of the Green Party, and Jim Anderton on the question of the decriminalisation of cannabis, which the Progressives are against and the Green Party is for. So other parliamentary duties called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EA lot of very good points have been made in terms of the need to be watchful of this legislation. I said that in my opinion, if there were criminal wrongdoing in terrorist form, we were not without weapons right at this moment. The police, under the general powers of the Crimes Act and other legislation, have the ability to take out warrants and carry out other actions against people who are suspected of wrongdoing. The Security Intelligence Service certainly does. In my opinion the weapons to detect are there. So the warnings of groups that legislation can be misused should be taken seriously. The compromise position that can be taken is to watch this legislation very carefully. Keith Locke has, quite rightly in my opinion, drawn attention to the misuse of legislation in the case of Ahmed Zaoui. My prediction on that case is that New Zealand will have to do a lot to re-establish its record of upholding the presumption of innocence, and it will have to do a lot to uphold its record that it will not misuse terrorism to persecute people who have political positions opposed to terrorism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThat is why, in the third reading speeches on this legislation, it is important for parties to have a historical perspective. The Cold War years should warn us of the misuse, particularly by conservative parties, of popular fears\u2014in the case of the Cold War, the misuse of propaganda that the Soviet Union was going to invade our country, and that New Zealand was under threat\u2014to undermine political rights in New Zealand. Testimony to that misuse is the 1932 Public Safety Conservation Act, which was brought in at a time when unemployed workers in New Zealand and their supporters were protesting about the fact that the Government was worsening their position by not providing them with work and security. It took a 1935 reforming Government, a Labour Government under Mickey Joseph Savage\u2014a great Australian who gave his talents to this country\u2014to remedy that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220eaba29409f043cfbe2192ec23a5d249\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: And a Catholic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022637b614c032042b2a7bc547f83a6f1ce\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: And a Catholic, who often did not say his prayers, I know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022672fdd690bde4f578a9befe34c3fe0f5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please come to the present.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d71ce7eb47849e9af88c12a328caeb2\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: I was distracted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a86880c5a7f846a082a3a71d6086fb9d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was 68 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237e6b1a7af164e3a8dac61201908172a\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: Then in 1951, during a legitimate industrial action\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224fab6cdd07c94aae8475441a324bd5db\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That was 52 years ago. Please come to the question of whether this legislation should be given its third readings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221109c7ccf5f34ce1bc2dd02f7f2fdcfa\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: I am, Mr Speaker. In terms of this Act, the 1951 regulations, in building on the 1932 Act, made it illegal to give support to workers who were locked out. They lost their freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. That happened in New Zealand, and anti-communism was used as the vehicle to do that, and to intimidate. That is the danger with Acts like this. I have an assurance from Mr Phil Goff, which I accept\u2014he is aware of those historical precedents, which is why I was telling the House about my interesting conversation with the Minister on these topics\u2014that this legislation does need to be looked at very carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThe United Future party said\u2014and I am paraphrasing\u2014that it did not want to hear anti-American ideology. Mr Locke, in drawing attention to what regimes do, is not being anti-American. From Abraham Lincoln through to Martin Luther King, there are admirable figures in the history of the United States. But to disagree with a particular regime, with its outlook and what it does, is not to be anti-American; it is to oppose the most powerful Government in the world if it has a foreign policy that may have an ill effect on New Zealand. I think the warning is apposite that our legislation is not so much driven by the masters in the United Nations\u2014I wish it was\u2014but often is driven by, or could be driven by, the type of legislation that exists in the United States. I refer to the Patriot Act, which is being used to persecute the Muslim population of the United States, and to undermine the liberties that the Americans cherish so greatly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EI point members to an article in the edition of Le Monde Diplomatique in the Guardian Weekly of October 16, at page 2, where it is pointed out that \u201Cthe war on Iraq is the culmination of a decade of intense intellectual and political work by a small group of neoconservatives who have united with fundamentalist Christians and militarists in the new imperial coalition that has crystallised under the Bush presidency\u201D. It seems far away, but the type of pressure that comes to shape the world for the interests of a very small and powerful clique can come home to New Zealand. That is what we do not want in our legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThis legislation does have some inherent dangers if the authorities misuse it. That is why I support what Keith Locke said about Ahmed Zaoui. I have talked with my colleagues and the Minister of Customs and the Minister of Immigration on some of the dangers that occur from legislation. I believe that, in terms of this legislation, it is important to keep a very watchful eye on it, and, as a House, to report any misuse of it. Of course, if we see good use of it, we will support it, but we should keep a watchful eye on this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7d97180efcc489e9e03608fbeed3b1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7d97180efcc489e9e03608fbeed3b1f\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I rise briefly to respond to the comments made by Keith Locke concerning Mr Zaoui and the Customs Service. I want to repeat what I have said previously and to correct the impression given by Mr Locke. In this particular case, the Customs Service did not perform immigration activities; the matter has been presented in that way, but it is simply not the case. It is concerning to me that the actions of Customs Service staff have been misrepresented in that way, and we will be taking action to ensure that it does not occur again. I repeat that the assertion made by Mr Locke is not correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f325506199bf46b5a57df8fc92998811\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224623bdf2d6854c6ab12d6e7cd36aae41\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Terrorism Suppression Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022aab51f26249f47fb833c25ecfbdd3939\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Misuse of Drugs Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b1a5e3ff56b54d13ace779dc9761dbfa\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022b66d3ea8084b4c70bbb955eddcb8c9b9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Sentencing Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 110\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002254c83e3d81174714abba992291517b6d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Summary Proceedings Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 102\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 17\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f53db8d42bc8497896f514a11addd894\u0022\u003ECopyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a4dd6c98674c4a2db679828c3bfe7415\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000067\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 14 October.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000068\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcea8f2750f24a81a3ce0aeddda25df0\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u0022b63e2ef90dcd4f4a881daa5c31285ce4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b63e2ef90dcd4f4a881daa5c31285ce4\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc9a6795e34b87be87edf1f3d16353\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u00226907206f4339495f9dbbfc5e30d82ae6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226907206f4339495f9dbbfc5e30d82ae6\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. It may be appropriate for you to take advice from the Clerk about the motion that has just been moved, because I think it is incorrect. I point out that the Opposition has been denied an opportunity to participate in the second reading debate. If you recall\u2014and Minister Tizard had just indicated this\u2014that after she spoke last week in the second reading, I stood and had about a minute and a bit of a response, as the senior Opposition member on this bill. The House then adjourned, during my contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022531877abe67c447988ccae00caad1f33\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0201264fe8f4b81b171ee14d1b2b9bb\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is correct, as Mr Catchpole confirms. The appropriate order would have been for the Speaker to say: \u201CInterrupted debate on the second reading, and the Hon Tony Ryall has 3 or 4 minutes to complete his speech.\u201D The Speaker did not say that. In my discussion with the Clerk, as the Speaker was leaving the Chamber, he indicated there was no record of my having taken that call last week. The Opposition wants to participate in a report-back debate on this bill, and I ask you to take the advice of the House, because I believe we have moved into the Committee stage inappropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00226a6b18189c174161bd264ef9e03c4229\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a6b18189c174161bd264ef9e03c4229\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the honourable member for his contribution. The House has moved into Committee, so we cannot go back now. We need to progress with the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022adc8c0ff71344f27a4ef034ca8173219\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022adc8c0ff71344f27a4ef034ca8173219\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E My recollection of proceedings is that the Minister moved the second reading, and then you called the Hon Tony Ryall, but he had barely got to his feet, when the House adjourned. He did not get a chance to even get into his speech.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b3365626270448f3a9b607a26b63e70f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b3365626270448f3a9b607a26b63e70f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: We have moved beyond the second reading, the vote has been cast, and there the matter ends. Now we need to progress. I say to the member that we have moved on\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9aab60e9f3e41438c62e8025b042495\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and what I am saying\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b055856ab65d4bf080db01ed41569de4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b055856ab65d4bf080db01ed41569de4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have made a decision and I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 17/3.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002278fdc8279033474d881e66d645d42381\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278fdc8279033474d881e66d645d42381\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I would like to make two points. First, will you draw this matter to the attention of the Speaker, because my rights, as a member of Parliament, have been denied because of a clerical error in the Clerk\u2019s Office? Frankly, it is not good enough, when every other member of the House who participated in the debate, knows that the Clerk\u2019s Office has denied the Opposition its right to participate. I want to know what you will do about fixing that. Secondly, will you therefore give us a more generous opportunity to express our views in the Committee stage, given that the Clerk has denied our rights to participate in a second reading debate? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e281cfdc17ed4fa09074c58ba05673c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e281cfdc17ed4fa09074c58ba05673c4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Can I say to the honourable member that if he wishes to draw the issue to the attention of the Speaker, then it is his right to do so, and he should do so. As for the other matter, I will always consider the issue when it comes to the Committee stage and ensure that people are given adequate time to make their point of view known.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022328c3061454d4ca8961bedf44f801ffd\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002282d677a7f32246b68046036a6f424664\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002282d677a7f32246b68046036a6f424664\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have already suggested to the member on my left that he should look at Speaker\u2019s ruling 17/3. I am going to say the same to the member. He should look at that ruling, because it basically states that members have a right to raise points of order, but once the chair has made the decision, then for the member to continue, after having been asked to desist, is highly disorderly. That leaves me very little alternative about what I can do. I will hear the member, but that will be it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022d0d453afe8934ef388ec3f1fee71003f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d0d453afe8934ef388ec3f1fee71003f\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I suggest that we recall the Speaker and have him reassess the situation. We have been denied a second reading of this bill. I have not spoken on the second reading. Tony Ryall was given the call on the second reading, and he did not have a chance to even deliver his speech. The only person to speak on the second reading was the Minister, and the rest of the House has not had an opportunity. If we need to have the Speaker recalled, then I will move in that way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022719ae48831374bfd8ef8b5a02212246d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022719ae48831374bfd8ef8b5a02212246d\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is perfectly entitled to move that that be done, but I say to the member that the reality is that the vote has been taken. Therefore, it is not possible to relitigate the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00222a37d428cabe4a9eb68b07699ccf8320\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a37d428cabe4a9eb68b07699ccf8320\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E We can resolve this quite rapidly. Mr Speaker called the second reading quite clearly. People were communicating with each other and not paying attention. That is why we are now in this situation. I sat here and said \u201CAye\u201D in response to Mr Speaker\u2019s prompts. It is not the fault of the person in the Chair that members on the other side of the Chamber were not paying attention. If you go back and look at the record, you will see that that is exactly what happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u002269c47697521247608b6492ba8b199c13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269c47697521247608b6492ba8b199c13\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I ask members to reflect on what is actually happening here. The reality is that the vote has been taken. I have already said to members that I recognise that they want to make contributions during the Committee stage, and they will be given adequate time to do that. Because the vote has been taken, and the Speaker has agreed to it, the matter rests there. I would now like to move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u002235e7a750cc8844fc88463c965f9e0639\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235e7a750cc8844fc88463c965f9e0639\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I hear the point you are making. If we look at Government orders of the day, under this bill it states that this is an interrupted debate on the second reading. In my view that means that 11 speeches remain\u2014that is what it states\u2014and because Mr Ryall had started to speak in the previous debate the Speaker should have offered him the opportunity to continue with his debate. In fact, Mr Ryall was never given that opportunity to continue with his debate. The Speaker went straight to the Minister, and that is where it progressed. Because Mr Ryall had already spoken and not taken up his allotted time, the first call should have gone directly to him. That is the issue that the Opposition feels aggrieved about. Mr Ryall was only a minute or so into a 10-minute speech, and he was not given the first call today. That is the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd0f2619060a4b7a9836b08328c70ad0\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: He wasn\u2019t even called.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226747c6e9aad94deca2d854080159142d\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: The junior Government whip might say that the member was not called. She is also interjecting on a point of order while I am bringing forward a very important point. The Speaker should have given the call to Mr Ryall, because he had started his debate. Although you have said it is too late to do that, it is our view that the correct process was not followed, and Mr Ryall should have been given the call, not the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00222f8afa514de84ceb92f48ab56de3c877\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f8afa514de84ceb92f48ab56de3c877\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: This is outside my jurisdiction. The second reading has been agreed to. I ask that we all be sensible in recognising that fact and that we progress to the Committee stage. Members will be given adequate time to put their case to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00224614c8e048ae45b086f66bba1d54482e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224614c8e048ae45b086f66bba1d54482e\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. Can I draw your attention to the commencement of proceedings today. We have an unusual situation whereby the Speaker is in error, but, of course, according to the Standing Orders the Speaker is not to be challenged. When we commenced proceedings this morning the Speaker rose and declared that we were commencing the interrupted date on the third reading of the Counter-Terrorism Bill, and he stated: \u201CWhen the House rose Mr Ron Mark was speaking and had 5 minutes 30 seconds remaining.\u201D That is precisely the procedure that should have been adopted a few moments ago. The explanation made by the junior Government whip\u2014that people were not paying attention\u2014is irrelevant, because the Speaker did not repeat those very same words with regard to the second reading of this bill, so there has been an error in procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe problem we are left with, as you quite rightly acknowledge, is that members are aggrieved that their speaking rights have been curbed. We have a breach of the Standing Orders, failure to comply with procedure, and failure to follow the legislative procedure. That is in error. Unless the Government whip can come to some understanding with Mr Ryall that redresses his grievance, then I am sorry, but Mr Brent Catchpole has already indicated that he will move that we recall the Speaker. That is the only way in which we can get out of Committee and back into the second reading of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd822324024348518cde623c36660d08\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have not heard from the senior Opposition whip, the honourable member John Carter, and I intend to listen to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00229896b59862f146b2becc70f6ae4cfc6c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229896b59862f146b2becc70f6ae4cfc6c\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E If there is a motion to recall the Speaker, having just spoken with the senior Government whip, then the most expedient thing is to recall the Speaker, and I think we can resolve the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022038f80deb72d4974b29f7ac39b01cda7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Does the honourable member Brent Catchpole still intend to seek the recall of the Speaker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a3d71c634d34532bc5c096e11481eea\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022986adf829f0a4d218a094be3f0f98671\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member like to put the motion please?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022e47806023d1f42f7a24bc709c305e05e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e47806023d1f42f7a24bc709c305e05e\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Speaker be recalled to give a ruling on the matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to, and House resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7abaded71054420bed36ad96020d9fa\u0022\u003ESpeaker Recalled\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb1bb381de5d486ca250a95bc4e21c43\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb1bb381de5d486ca250a95bc4e21c43\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Speaker, some concern has been expressed that Opposition members were not given their right to speak in the second reading debate. As a result there has been a long debate in the Committee that has necessitated your recall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00223f401fb567e04e39b0a03839a1dfe3fd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223f401fb567e04e39b0a03839a1dfe3fd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think I had better state the facts as they are, because I have had an opportunity to listen to the tape. The tape shows quite clearly that when Judith Tizard sat down Mr Carter moved that the House adjourn at that stage, and no one was called. That is what the tape shows. If members look at the Order Paper they will see that it states: \u201C11 x 10m speeches remain.\u201D When I called the second reading I was waiting for the first person to get up to take a call. No one did, and I put the question. I am obliged to do that. No one sought the call. There is no clerical error whatsoever on behalf of the Clerk\u2019s Office. We have listened to the tape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00222743c35f9a8e4c2dbbe518ec8bf9085f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222743c35f9a8e4c2dbbe518ec8bf9085f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E In accepting that advice to the Parliament, and in view of, perhaps, getting some movement on this\u2014because otherwise we may end up with some frustration\u2014I wonder whether it would be sensible if I were to seek leave of the House for us to get agreement to recommence the second reading, so that members who want to make a contribution to a second reading might do so. Following that, we could then go back into Committee. I seek leave of the House for us to resume the second reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa4cdb9c19fb4517a09cb5ad4dcd883a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, leave has to be sought to rescind the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d724f4fa9ff4fc48bb084976a01d74c\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to rescind the motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289ba760130f34be9bf328740257f89ec\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to do that. Is there any objection? There appears to be objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229d718875bc7f4dba81b3cdaa07e1456b\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000110\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220cdabe2f92c94f6ab3da61439369ec87\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002275d3ac15c1a1439dbd12f48285b2b998\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002275d3ac15c1a1439dbd12f48285b2b998\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Although it is not strictly within the Standing Orders, I apologise for the confusion caused on the last matter. I would observe that other members of the Opposition were of the same view as I was, and, indeed, as was the Minister\u2014she thought I had the call as well. As the Minister has pointed out, it appears that we were confused with the Credit Contracts Act, which was also split during the debate. We apologise for that confusion, but it was widely held on all sides of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party will strongly oppose the passing of this bill, because we believe it is a hugely privileged piece of legislation that will favour only a few in the community. It will not work and, what is more, it breaches a promise the Government made. In her Speech from the Throne, the Prime Minister promised that she would deliver to the arts community a 2-year prohibition on the parallel importing of CDs, videos, films, books, and software. Where is the Prime Minister\u2019s promise of a 2-year import ban on software in this bill? Nowhere. Where is the Prime Minister\u2019s promise of a 2-year ban on the importing of books in this bill? Nowhere. Where is the Prime Minister\u2019s ban on the importing of CDs and videos for 2 years? Absolutely nowhere. We think the title of this bill should more appropriately be the \u201CCopyright (Broken Promises by the Prime Minister) Bill\u201D, because it fails to do what the Prime Minister promised she would do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhen she got the Greens\u2019 support for this bill, the Prime Minister said she would have a 2-year ban on the importing of books, videos, CDs, and DVDs to protect the New Zealand arts community. That is what she promised the Greens when she said: \u201CHelp me get this bill passed.\u201D Is there a ban on any of those things for 2 years? No, so it is incorrect for the Prime Minister to try to tell this Committee that this is a Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill, when what it is really about is her broken promises to the Greens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe know that what is in this bill will not work. This bill should more correctly be called the \u201CCopyright (Put up the Price of DVDs and Videos) Bill\u201D, because that is the consequence of what this Government is trying to do. We know that the evidence from Australia is absolutely clear that parallel-importing bans do not assist in the development of the arts industry. It has been estimated by the Government\u2019s own advisers that as a result of the parallel-importing ban in Australia, consumers there pay $6 more than American consumers for musical recordings. That means that over $1 billion more is paid by Australian music listeners and video watchers than would have been the case had the ban not been in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227949fd48724f4dfa8535ec6857501650\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: Music is not covered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224def83410b4c4c518a1074b61565eed5\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: That is absolutely right. It is not covered because the Minister and Helen Clark have broken their promise to the Greens and to the arts community of New Zealand, because they said they would have this ban. What is more, in each part of this debate we intend to go through page after page of official documents that show, time and time again, the Government\u2019s advisers saying that the Prime Minister\u2019s promise was not practical and would not work. This is the \u201CCopyright (Broken Promises by the Prime Minister) Bill\u201D, because yet again another promise made by the Government in the Speech from the Throne is not included in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe will be talking about this issue later in other parts of the debate, but there was the extraordinary circumstance of the former Minister of Commerce, Paul Swain, thinking that there should be a ban on the parallel importing of books everywhere except in libraries. How minute, how detailed, can Government interference get in respect of reading material?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u00226cf500d2fded412795fd89d2a6097d17\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226cf500d2fded412795fd89d2a6097d17\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Just before I call the next speaker, I point out that the title debate is a very narrow debate. Members need to ask themselves whether the proposed title adequately describes the bill. I just say that to indicate to members what I will be looking for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u00226ab5ca389d6d45fe853cbcc34cbad401\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ab5ca389d6d45fe853cbcc34cbad401\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The title of this bill\u2014Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill\u2014is a load of rubbish. This bill is nothing more than a \u201CGuilty Until Proven Innocent\u201D bill, because that is what it sets out to do. The bill contains a clause that provides that a person is guilty regardless of whether he or she is a legitimate business person. You are guilty until you can prove that you\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022896648ff6ac04aea86c9bb26645c7670\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not talking about the Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7aa90010aca4134be3b5e21f0689f81\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, you are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbad783fbcc49d8876220b633f4036f\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am not talking about the Chairperson, I am talking about the public in general\u2014the business people. [Interruption] I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. We have just gone through the second reading without an opportunity to speak on the bill. I ask you to keep the senior Government whip and the Minister quiet during our speaking time. If you want us to continue on this bill, I suggest that you keep those members quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f9361866c0946b7b1d74a56dfafd6e8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I am the sole judge of the situation in the Chamber. I will call order when I believe that someone has gone outside Speakers\u2019 rulings or the Standing Orders. That has not happened at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223de9a605df95494e8efbd3ce2d149c05\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I ask you to keep a very close eye on those members on the other side, to give us a fair chance to have a say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de0a3169544493896adc4278a4c8363\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I always do, Mr Catchpole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297ce82349cbd474fa782a88354a9299c\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, the title of the bill should be nothing more than \u201CGuilty Until Proven Innocent\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286a43cf8714c4209a7b02daf41f2ed39\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222edd1a767d254dd2a01fc9c24d174994\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I was not referring to the Chairperson, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022949c4aa72b8345898b0093f0f150a85f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: You cannot the use the word \u201Cyou\u201D, because it refers to the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5adc95f4c804e159e7d52757280d17f\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: The general public is guilty. Every businessman or woman in the country who imports any sort of books, DVDs, or CDs is guilty unless he or she can produce the paperwork when asked at any time to prove whether that business is legitimate. According to this bill, the general public and every business person is guilty until they can prove that they run a legitimate business. Those people could have been running a legitimate business for many years, importing DVDs, CDs, and books. However, this bill turns the onus of proof around completely and makes those people guilty until they can put all the information on the table. The request for information can be made purely on the whim of the Customs Department or the Comptroller of Customs. If they feel they want to slow down the importation of other goods, they just have to say that that person is guilty and prove it. Businesses will come to a halt unless they can prove that they are not bringing in pirated copies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThat is where the bill goes wrong. It attempts to try to prove that everybody is guilty, rather than put the onus on the ones who want to bring charges to prove that they have a case before they can stop a situation. It is a misnomer to name the bill the \u201CCopyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill\u201D. It is a \u201Cguilty until proven innocent\u201D bill, and that is the wrong way to go about it. It hinges on our civil rights. All that is needed is another genuine importer to lay a complaint and a person is considered to be guilty, and that person will have to go through all the hoops to prove that he or she is not guilty. That is where this bill goes wrong. This bill should be named the \u201CGuilty Until Proven Innocent Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022bdaf9cdf22e548c7b0e7004193eb0ec5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bdaf9cdf22e548c7b0e7004193eb0ec5\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to speak to the title, the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill. There are a number of variations we could have of the title. As the title stands at the moment, it does not convey the intention of the bill or what the bill is all about. It is not about copyright, at all. It is not about protecting copyright. Copyright is an intellectual property. There is no threat to any copyright owner here. The bill is actually about protecting the licensing rights of big US companies, and it could be called a number of things. One title that I am sure the Minister would have loved to call the bill is the \u201CCurrying Favour with Dubious Artists Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe Government, when it set out the purpose of the bill, said it was to protect local artists in creative industries. The Minister nods her head. The bill could more honestly be called the \u201CCurrying Favour with Local Artists Bill\u201D, because that is exactly what it will do. It will give them a false sense of security for 9 months in terms of trying to send people rushing out and forcing them to buy local stuff, when the Minister knows that they can use a computer. They can go online and download anything they want\u2014and that leads me to some other titles we could use. Instead of calling the bill the \u201CCopyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill\u201D, we could call it the \u201CExtra Cash for Pirate Burners Bill\u201D, or the \u201CBoost the Piracy Market Bill\u201D, or, even better still, the \u201CExtra Cash for School Kids Bill\u201D. We all know that all kids need do is go on to the Internet\u2014and I do not know how many people in New Zealand are online these days, but it is huge proportion of the population\u2014and go into one of the websites that teenagers are very skilful at doing, burn their own CDs, and sell them in the playground. That is why I say the bill should be titled the \u201CBoost the Piracy Market Bill\u201D, or the \u201CExtra Cash for School Kids Bill\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAnother title for the bill could be the \u201CNew Zealand Customs Protecting US Incomes Bill\u201D, because that is what the bill will do. That is what the title should state in order to reflect the purpose of the bill, because US incomes will be protected by free policing at the border by the New Zealand Customs Service. We could call the bill the \u201CCustoms Officers Film Club Maintenance Bill\u201D, because customs officers will now be required to view all the DVDs, etc. that come through, to make sure that they do not breach the legislation, and this legislation\u2014as the Minister nodded her head before\u2014is to protect local, creative industries. I come back to the title we have now, the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill. The other point Brent Catchpole alluded to was the onus of proof. Those words in the title turn the whole onus of proof thing on its head, and we will come to that later on in the Committee stage when we get to the onus of proof aspect. The Government is stepping on to a very slippery slope with that onus of proof clause in the bill. How far will it continue this\u2014when it slips those sorts of things into titles and uses them as a way to slide things through? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to address in the title is the year\u20142002. Members should look at how long it has already taken us to deal with the bill, and every time we go into urgency we get into the situation where we look at how we pass legislation in urgency. The 1999 Speech from the Throne referred to the fact that parallel importing of CDs, videos, films, books, and software would be prohibited for 2 years. The Ministry of Economic Development did do a review. We are now at the end of 2003, passing this bill under urgency\u2014and I am sorry that we are keeping the Minister up, but these are the facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002295b00d89117e4b3297e306b023da0839\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClause 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002240089393e9334890b0dc6f9b1dbe808f\u0022\u003EPart 1  Commencement and amendments to principal Act\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022b2f2606635ab4031bfc61745a4c90753\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b2f2606635ab4031bfc61745a4c90753\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 contains the essential provisions that make a number of changes, some of which are less inflammatory than others. In particular, the National Party Opposition refers to clause 4 and the provisions that amend section 35 of the principal Act, and particularly new section 35(3), which states that if a person imports into New Zealand a copy of a film within 9 months of that film first being made available to the public in New Zealand, then that is a prohibition and a breach of the copyright. What that means, essentially, is that if a film is showing at a cinema in New Zealand, no DVD or video of that film can be brought in. That means, for example, that we will not be able to go and buy a DVD or a video of Finding Nemo\u2014which was released in New Zealand by the Walt Disney Company\u2014for our children for Christmas because it is within 9 months of the first release of that movie. As people who have young children will know, Finding Nemo is a big hit. They all want to get the DVD or the video for Christmas, and this bill, when it is passed, will prevent that from ever happening again. That is just plain outright protectionism for a very small group of people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EIf members read the Cabinet paper that went through, it will be clear to them that the Cabinet has put in that 9-month prohibition in order to protect small provincial cinemas. They have accepted the argument that because people in Whakatane, Tokoroa, and Hawera can go to the video shop or import a DVD, that will stop them going to the cinema, there will be fewer people going to the movies, and movie theatres will close. I have news for the Government. Sky City Leisure, which owns a chain of cinemas throughout New Zealand, which are heavily weighted to the provinces, has recorded its biggest ever profit. What that tells us is that there is no problem with small rural cinemas needing protection, because they are all making money. Let me assure members that in provincial New Zealand we are getting the latest movies within a few weeks of them appearing in Auckland, and people being able to go down to video stores to get the video or the DVD is not having any effect. As the officials quite rightly told the Government, there are a lot of factors affecting the impact of cinema attendance, including the lower drinking age, live sport on television, the Internet, the cost of petrol, and ticket prices. Those are some of the things that might have an impact on cinemas\u2014it is not just the importing of DVDs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EMy view is that the Government realised that it could not meet the promise the Prime Minister made to the Greens, and in the Speech from the Throne, that the Government would put a 2-year ban on the importing of books, videos, CDs, and DVDs, so it has come up with the idea of a 9-month ban in order to stop DVDs and videos of the latest movie releases being available. Frankly, that will affect poor New Zealanders more than it will affect rich New Zealanders, because rich people from Remuera are still allowed to import DVDs and videos directly\u2014they can bring them in from their overseas trips\u2014whereas poor people in Hawera do not have that ability. Normally, they hire the DVD, because it is a heck of a lot cheaper than buying one. This Government says that it is all right to buy the DVD within a few days of the cinematic release but it is not all right to rent the DVD within a few days of its cinematic release, and that is a privilege that is afforded to rich people but not to poor people. The Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, should take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f97e55e7924943afbfca66d039ccd061\u0022\u003EHon David Cunliffe\u003C/span\u003E: Like you care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e0dfbbe215845f7983b990cbdd41b3d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I do care, because poor people should be entitled to go and rent Finding Nemo. It is not fair that only rich people can go and buy the DVD.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022842f4c066600426ca5a2614f2b63915d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022842f4c066600426ca5a2614f2b63915d\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future, the common-sense party that supports this legislation. The public out there listening can be a little bit more encouraged about this legislation\u2014United Future will be backing it, so it is good legislation. The protection of intellectual property is an issue of considerable importance throughout the global marketplace we now live in. The bill before us today is a step towards correcting the abuse of copyrights and the increase in piracy within the film industry, and I am very surprised that ACT and National are not supporting it. The bill will have relevance both nationally and internationally. Technology and the sheer pace and extent of global trade are transforming our world almost faster than we can bear, let alone keep up with. One thing that I have against the human rights perspective is that we work in a global village. We really need to come away from human rights and begin to deal with human requirements as our global village begins to emerge, because that throws a whole different light on things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ELet me explain the reasons why this bill deserves passage and is receiving United Future\u2019s support. The first reason is that the bill changes the onus of proof, which we have already heard some comment on. A defining aspect of this bill is the reversing of the onus of proving copyright infringement in relation to imported copyrighted goods. Under the existing law, a copyright holder who takes action against an importer will need to prove to the court that the imported goods are not genuine. As a result, it is the importers of pirated goods who at present hold the upper hand. At the moment, the bad guys normally win, and United Future does not agree with that principle. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBecause pirated goods are increasingly difficult to distinguish from genuine goods, the process of ascertaining guilt is often tedious. For example, a lot of goods made in Third World countries look identical to the genuine article. They have the same labels and so on, and the ones that look identical are very difficult to distinguish. At the moment, copyright owners must track the goods to their country of origin. Then they need to prove that the goods were actually made there. Then they need to prove that they were made without the permission of the rights holder in that country and, therefore, infringe copyright in that country. This bill will shift the responsibility on to the importer, for whom it will be markedly easier to prove that the goods are indeed genuine. When this bill is passed, it will be up to the importer to prove that the imported goods are genuine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThis change of onus of proof for the importer is both fair and practical, even though, as we have heard, it does move us away from the \u201Cinnocent until proven guilty\u201D scenario\u2014which I personally agree with\u2014but let me give the reasons for this. Given that the evidence importers will need to prove the legitimacy of the goods will be no more than an importer would reasonably be expected to maintain as a matter of good business practice, this change in civil procedure is pragmatic and based firmly on reason. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThis bill offers benefits for importers and copyright owners alike. From the importers\u2019 point of view, this bill affords them protection. Built into the bill is the provision that the court will not require a person to disclose any information about his or her sources of supply if it appears to the court that it would be reasonable to do so. That ensures that copyright owners do not use infringement procedures to force parallel importers to reveal their trade sources. From the copyright owner\u2019s point of view, this bill also makes it easy for a copyright owner to prove that the importer knew that the goods were pirated copies\u2014something the owner must establish to be entitled to a remedy. Under the bill, the importer must know, or reasonably ought to have known, that the goods were pirated goods. That points to an elevated, more objective test than presently applies. It is a vast improvement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u00225789421811084c80953602dc54b40df7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225789421811084c80953602dc54b40df7\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It was interesting to hear the United Future member supporting the onus of proof required by this bill. I wish that party had also supported the rules we tried to put in place to prevent the clocking of used cars brought into this country, but, no, United Future members wanted that thrown out because they did not believe that it was the ideal thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI will pick up on a point that Tony Ryall made about small cinemas. The Minister in the chair, Judith Tizard, believes that this bill will protect small cinemas. I suggest that small cinemas are not protected by this bill at all, because the 9-month ban dates from the time of international release. If the local distributor does not allow the film to be distributed in this country until the 9 months have elapsed, then DVDs and other parallel imports will overtake it. Therefore, local cinemas will be protected only if there is a simultaneous release with the international date. For small cinemas, that is not a protection. The Government announced in the Speech from the Throne that it would put in a 2-year protection for operators of small cinemas in this country, but this bill is a complete cop-out and a backtrack.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAuthorised distributors have control over what is distributed in this country. They decide whether catalogues that are available overseas are to be distributed. This bill blocks distribution of those back catalogues. There is a huge back catalogue of, particularly, region 1 films. Most of the films are not distributed in this country, because the authorised distributors have not allowed their distribution. Therefore, parallel imports of those films are the only way to allow them to come in. If this bill, as it tries to do, prevents the parallel import of films until they have been released and distributed here, then those operators are missing out on a very large catalogue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EPiracy has been going on for many, many years, probably for as long as the recording industry has been in existence. Piracy has accelerated in recent years with technology, with the means of the Internet. But that is not the major difficulty with films, because those files are of such large volume that it would take many, many hours to download a complete film on the Internet, and most people do not want to waste their time doing that. I know that a lot of young kids do it, but they would never be able to afford to buy the film in the first place. Some of those kids might download music, but they turn round in later years and buy back catalogues of the music they downloaded, because it becomes a nostalgia thing and they enjoy the music. So I do not see that the problems with piracy affect the industry as much as we are led to believe. I do not believe that the bill really addresses the problems that it is aiming to address, and protects the local industry. The local industry distributes locally. If the local industry is lucky enough to have a film captured by the overseas market, that is wonderful, but we are not likely to parallel import it back into this country when it is available here at probably much the same price as the industry can get it under a parallel importation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe have heard Tony Ryall talk about the cost of films and music overseas, in Australia particularly, where it is only slightly below the cost in America. Why are New Zealand prices so much higher? That is one of the areas that this bill should have addressed and put at a more realistic level. The cost of films and music that can be bought in this country is so much higher, and that encourages people to parallel import.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022fba0699bc89545a8af3e877451f913cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fba0699bc89545a8af3e877451f913cb\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to respond to the accusations from the member of United Future who accused the ACT party of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292fba1ec4a3940f5b5cb6434f1c2e290\u0022\u003EBrent Catchpole\u003C/span\u003E: Who?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdc33f96a86e43a6a5e004ffd4670267\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: United Future\u2014the one whose leader will be the Prime Minister in a couple of years! That member accused ACT of not protecting intellectual copyright. This bill is not about protecting intellectual copyright. I accept that \u201Cintellectual\u201D is a word that probably does not pass into that member\u2019s focus very often. This bill is about protecting the licence rights of overseas distributors, and the right of big theatre chains in New Zealand to have an exclusive, statutorily legalised monopoly for 9 months on the showing of films.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ENobody is supporting the importation of pirated videos and CDs. If that member had read the bill, he would know that it says one cannot import anything, even if it is legally obtained and does not breach copyright. The bill is about parallel importing. Is that member suggesting that the Warehouse breaches copyright every time it sells books that are parallel imported, because they are half the price of Whitcoulls\u2019 books? I would be interested to know if that is what he is suggesting. If he were consistent, he would be accusing the Warehouse of breaching copyright by selling books published outside the copyright\u2014which is parallel importing. Parallel importing is not the same as breaching copyright. The banning of parallel importing protects exclusive licence rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe Hon Tony Ryall was absolutely correct when he said that this bill would be a bonus for big business and wealthy people. It will be bad for people who cannot afford, for whatever reason, to take six kids to the movies in the first 9 months that a movie comes out, and who want to buy a video or a DVD\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c040e5b638ea4947919cc1fa74cc8709\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Even rent a video.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef5d678db1784aecb002c4f4688f7172\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014or even rent a video, of Finding Nemo, The Lion King, or any of those movies that come out and which we used to be able to get. The Warehouse is a classic example of a place where families on low incomes could do their Christmas shopping at an affordable rate, but this bill will stop that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThis bill will not do anything to protect copyright at all. That member is confused. I think he should read the bill again, because it will encourage the breaching of copyright. When the parallel importing of popular products is banned for 9 months, people who want them will find other, illegal ways to get them. The ACT party does not support that. It does not support the burning of CDs on the Internet. It does not support the selling of them. We know that it already goes on. Young people do it a lot. They seem to have some sort of unwritten code\u2014which is nice\u2014that they do not do it to local artists such as Bic Runga, Stellar, and all those groups. Some young people have a sort of code that they do not burn the works of New Zealand artists. Nevertheless, $33 to buy a CD is a lot of money, so the temptation is already there to burn CDs and pirate their use. I can guarantee that, when this bill is passed, burning, piracy, and breaching of copyright will go up. I think we should make it very clear that this bill is not about protecting copyright at all; it is about protecting the licence rights of, especially, American big business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWhy was this bill brought in in the first place? It was to do with, in the Government\u2019s own words, the US 301 Watch List. It had nothing to do with the fact that our copyright laws are poor. There is nothing wrong with our copyright laws. If there was, why is the Minister not amending the Copyright Act? She is not amending that Act; she is amending this Act. This bill was not brought in because our copyright laws are poor; it was brought in because, by our allowing parallel importing, overseas copyright owners and local exclusive licensees were placed in the same position as the New Zealand originators of unique or branded material\u2014that is, they had to enforce their rights themselves. They could not get protection from the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u00229e01fa8e38e04eecabf48c7fdb092499\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e01fa8e38e04eecabf48c7fdb092499\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens support this bill. It does not give all the protection we might like to small bookstores and small record stores around our community, but it does give protection to local cinemas. New Zealanders go to the movies in large numbers. Cinemas have worked hard to combat, first, television, then DVDs, and they have done it fairly successfully. Many have suggested that viewers should be able to decide for themselves whether they watch a movie at home or on the screen in a theatre. They can do both, but they may have to wait a little longer to watch it at home.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe would contend that the movie experience and that of watching a DVD at home are different experiences. We can do one activity in the privacy of our own homes, which just cements in alienation from the community. The other activity takes us out into the community. Protecting cinemas is about protecting the community. Going to the movies is an affordable social outing\u2014an opportunity to mix with other human beings. It is more than just watching a film on a big screen. Being with other people is an important part of belonging. Sharing experiences is the stuff of communities. Many cinemas have bars and restaurants attached so that movie going is an even more interesting experience. Cinemas are meeting places. This bill protects interesting experiences. It protects the ability to go to the movies. In some urban shopping centres cinemas are another excuse for patronising the local shops. They are an important element in local economies, at a time when malls, shopping chains, and big block stores have made the survival of neighbourhood shopping centres tenuous at best. The bill protects that important area of neighbourhood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ESo what has all of that to do with the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill? Why could we not just have both? Some folk, given the choice, are likely to rent a video and sit at home with a friend and watch it on the box, and, as large-screen televisions take on, the numbers who stay at home are likely to make the survival of cinemas\u2014particularly the smaller, suburban and rural variety\u2014even more uncertain. The bill gives some certainty to cinemas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWhen movies first come out, the new prints are expensive. The large chains can afford to buy those expensive prints. They have larger auditoriums, larger audiences, and larger runs. The rural cinemas and smaller, suburban cinemas are not able to afford them, and this bill gives a window so that those small, threatened rural and suburban cinemas can survive. Why should we not let the market decide? I ask why we should run the risk. The market has a place, but if there is a chance that stripping away the rules might also strip away choice and undermine important community assets and experiences, we ask again why we should run the risk. This bill helps to lessen that risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe bill makes liability for infringement dependent on the defendant knowing that the goods in question were not infringing copies. That, to me, sounds like good business sense. Why would we not take that precaution? When we take on a product to sell, why would we not make sure that it was legitimate? That sounds to me like a reasonable thing to do and a much simpler option. I imagine that it is what most prudent business people do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EI have been aware for some time of the problems with cinemas. I have a friend who has built and run cinemas, and I know that the threat of DVDs to cinemas is real. The marketplace is appropriate for making some decisions, but this is a situation in which the community has a right to expect us to make decisions that give it another measure of protection. Tony Ryall says he wants to buy a DVD for his kids for Christmas. I say he should take his kids to the cinema and buy the DVD next Christmas, or for a birthday present\u2014he will get the chance. He also says rich people can import DVDs. I tell him that that is a little patronising. The rules apply to everybody. Anybody can import DVDs directly for himself or herself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4388acd473d4673ae9acf437943b9c7\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: But can you afford them? That\u2019s the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b8795a5d7be4922b5805ed1c30c838c\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD\u003C/span\u003E: Well, if someone cannot afford a DVD, it is not the end of a child\u2019s childhood. As one who brought up his children without DVDs, I say that their lives have not been horribly blighted. This bill does not undermine childhood\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c9511a81c774b09af7278a17b7c1097\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s what you say.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213c7df1b55744196bfaa18cd9392a958\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD\u003C/span\u003E: I can promise the member that. Deborah Coddington has said that American big business is protected by this bill. I tell members that American big business will do well with or without the bill. This is important legislation. It is a protection of community assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022ae7591bd50cf4f81b1a2248551cad14e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ae7591bd50cf4f81b1a2248551cad14e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Minister of State):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002279ff4f1311964d6099d60a3e65cce634\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279ff4f1311964d6099d60a3e65cce634\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to pick up on a point made by the United Future party, which together with the Greens and the Progressives will be supporting the left-wing Labour Party on this bill. I draw to the attention of members in the Chamber that I think the United Future members are in danger of making the same mistake they did with the Care of Children Bill. Members will recall that when the Care of Children Bill was tabled, Judy Turner, Paul Adams, and Marc Alexander came out and said they supported it. Then they found out that there would be lesbian fathers, and abortions for 10-year-olds without the parents being advised. They changed their minds, and they are now against that bill. I think they need to listen to the debate on this bill instead of just following the notes the Government gave them. It was clear, in relation to the Care of Children Bill, which United Future members are on record as supporting, that they did not know what was in it, and I do not think they know what is in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea38167dcf5b45fabefb6ef7ec6d0d27\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come to the point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf3c3622f2884b2d9b4d5f6e4c83405e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: Let us just go through some of the facts in respect of this bill and why it is about denying choice for New Zealanders. We heard a speech stating that it is all about protecting small cinemas. We know that the 9-month provision applies from the first international release of the film. If the film is released in summer in Europe, and is going to be released in summer in New Zealand, that is 6 months of the 9 months gone already. We also know that the DVD can be imported by the owner of the copyright, without any fetter by this bill. That means that Disney can import Finding Nemo as a DVD to be sold at Disney shops, but parallel importers such as the Warehouse\u2014Mr Tindall is a good supporter of the Labour Party\u2014will not be allowed to parallel import DVDs into the country. Disney can do it, but the Warehouse cannot; so there is another anomaly there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI also say to United Future that significant numbers of New Zealanders like the choice of being able to rent a DVD or video of a film currently being screened. This bill will prevent them from having the opportunity to rent the DVD or video, but it does not stop them from getting on the Internet and ordering and buying the DVD or video from Australia. The issue here is that only some people can afford to buy the DVD or video. They are quite expensive. As Mrs Coddington said, if people have four, five, or six kids, they are probably looking at paying between $36 and $45\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563b43b46a414ea88813488531c79d5c\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s $78.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479a9278327c45e99a739a5c940e8af7\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It would cost $78 in Auckland to take the kids to see Finding Nemo, as well as cost $12 to $15 for the supervising parent. People could be looking at paying $50 to $60 to take their family of four to six kids to the movies. That is really expensive, and it is why a lot of people like to have the choice of whipping down to a video source and renting a DVD or video for the kids. It is all about choice, and I can tell United Future that this bill denies choice to a whole lot of people. It denies them the choice of an alternative form of entertainment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EAs a form of protectionism for small cinemas, it will not work. We know that people can import DVDs and videos directly off the Internet. We know that the copyright owners can import directly into New Zealand and sell through their own shops, but that the Warehouse and other parallel importers cannot. We know that the provision applies 9 months after the international release, which in New Zealand may be only 2 or 3 months. So the bill will just not work as a form of protectionism.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EI ask United Future to please consider the amendment that I have put forward, which would allow everything else in the bill\u2014some of the good stuff about defining copyright title and rental rights\u2014to be left in it, but would remove that foolish prohibition of 9 months. I know that the notes from the Government will not cover this matter, but I am happy to give them a copy of the final Cabinet legislation committee paper on it, which basically says the ban is not going to work. I bet Labour did not give that to United Future. I say that United Future should learn from the Care of Children Bill and read the stuff that the Government does not give its members, because material from the Government\u2019s own official documents shows that nothing about this prohibition is going to work. People who want to obtain Finding Nemo on DVD will be able to do that, but they will have to be people who are prosperous enough to afford it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022bbfa1ed872254bd48a51c6b60d2571f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bbfa1ed872254bd48a51c6b60d2571f6\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I believe that the Hon Tony Ryall has mischievously misled the Committee about United Future\u2019s position on the Care of Children Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09391f091384c2988d48287b304b2f4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is a debating point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ab52c5fcf08447779bbf6ad90ad26d58\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ab52c5fcf08447779bbf6ad90ad26d58\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u002256f78cfb5bf9453e937b0f2d98e40b9e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002256f78cfb5bf9453e937b0f2d98e40b9e\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to pick up on a point that I made in an earlier speech, with regard to parallel importation and the 9-month ban. As Mr Ryall pointed out, the ban is only on parallel importation, and is not on genuine, authorised, licensee-distributed goods. So Disney can distribute them. Closer to home, the distribution of the third The Lord of the Rings film on DVD and video can commence on the day it is premiered in Wellington. Distribution can occur from the first day a work is published or opened for viewing by the public anywhere in the world\u2014the bill clearly refers in section 35(3A), in clause 4, to a work first being made available \u201Cin New Zealand or elsewhere\u201D. Generally, it refers to international release, but in the case of the The Lord of the Rings film the premiere will be here in New Zealand, and genuine, authorised licensees can commence distribution of videos and DVDs on the day the film is released.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThere is no protection for small cinemas in that case. Small cinemas will no doubt have a huge influx of customers when the film comes out, but the bill will not protect them by delaying the release of DVDs until a date 9 months afterwards, in the way that the Minister is suggesting, because those restrictions are on distribution through parallel importation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe other thing I would like to point out is something that the learning institutes raised with the select committee. They are concerned that the bill now forbids them from parallel importing e-books that have clips of movies within them. If the 9-month period has not been passed, those e-books cannot be imported and shown within learning institutes. The learning institutes expressed that problem to us. Beyond that, there is the problem of the licensing of the software required to run those movies and e-books. If learning institutions have to rely on distribution by the local distributor, then that creates a long delay before they can use the learning material in the manner they wish. They will have to reprogramme their timetables, and either wait the 9 months or pay a huge cost to buy the licence themselves. That was a major concern for the learning institutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIn summary, the 9-month delay in parallel importing is not going to help small cinemas, because it is up to local distributors to decide when they want to distribute DVDs. It will stop only parallel importation. If a DVD is released on the day a work is released internationally, then the small cinemas are not going to be protected or assisted in any way. Learning institutes will have to wait for a much longer period before they can start showing imported e-books; the inclusion of film clips in them means that learning institutes will not be able to show e-books unless they buy the licence separately, or buy directly from local distributors. That may not suit local distributors, because they may not want to bring in the e-books as well; so it is not necessarily going to help anybody, and will only delay the whole process. This bill will not help local cinemas, as was claimed, but it does bring a lot of the high technology into line.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d90600b0bd494bba8ddd601acb9b787a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d90600b0bd494bba8ddd601acb9b787a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Minister for Racing):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 4 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 35 of the principal Act by omitting subsection (3).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002266c5203e03b84a14b833c8026015a262\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224384241c58c0425cbeecfbbc15211c27\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 1 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222139b9d28dd44d6d86ca98593908b35a\u0022\u003EPart 2  Consequential amendment to Trade Marks Act 2002\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d40ea65da77e442c8d56cff185c79956\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d40ea65da77e442c8d56cff185c79956\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E The effect of Part 2\u2014while described by the Government as only technical\u2014is that a registered trademark will not be infringed by the use of the trademark on parallel imported goods, where a trademark has been applied to the goods that have been put on the market anywhere else in the world. The National Party\u2019s concerns with this part of the bill relate to the fact that we do not believe that the Government should be trusted in making these sorts of changes. We think that the cavalier attitude displayed by the Government in earlier parts prevent it from being given the trust of the Committee in respect of any other amendment. We are concerned because we simply do not believe that the Government has any commitment to the benefits of parallel importing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E It is clear, when we read the pages and pages of documentation we received under the Official Information Act, that this Government does not believe in the benefits that parallel importing has given the consumers of New Zealand. This Committee needs to be reminded that the Labour Party in Opposition opposed the legislation that brought parallel importing into New Zealand and dropped the prices on a whole lot of consumer items up and down this country. Previously, exclusive rights saw a number of holders of those rights extract extraordinary rents and premiums on the goods and services on which they held those rights, and that was paid for by ordinary New Zealanders. As a consequence of the previous National Government moving to open up parallel importing in New Zealand, we have seen a dramatic improvement in choice for ordinary people and for business in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat is the consequence of that? The consequence of that is we have managed not only to reduce the inputs to many businesses in New Zealand but to open up the quality and the variety of goods that ordinary New Zealanders are able to purchase, and that was opposed by the Labour Party in Opposition. Labour members believe that any opening up of trade has to be bad. That is the argument they made in the debates. They argued that we should support the sort of arrangement that allows people to control the flow of goods into New Zealand and deny the rights of other New Zealanders to pass the benefits of cheaper goods on to ordinary people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EMembers need just look at the reduction in prices we have seen in computer software. The price reductions we have seen in that area have been absolutely phenomenal, and that is the result of parallel importing, brought in by the National Government. Members should just look at the cost reduction we have seen in designer products like perfumes, clothing, and household goods. They have reduced in price dramatically because of parallel importing\u2014which was opposed for days, hours on end, by the Labour Party when this was first proposed by the National Party in Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe oppose this Government wanting to make changes in this bill because we do not believe that this Government can be trusted to make changes that will preserve the integrity of parallel importing. We have just seen, during the debate on the previous part, that even when the advice they received from every Government agency told Government members that their 9-month ban on importing videos and DVDs would not work, they still did it. When this Committee was told, time and time again, in this Committee stage that that ban on parallel importing would not work, the Government has not listened. Parallel importing, introduced by the previous National Government, has been a runaway success. It has lowered the cost of inputs for hundreds, if not thousands, of businesses around the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022803df30e97e348349eb6098305bcba7d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022803df30e97e348349eb6098305bcba7d\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to pick up on a point that Deborah Coddington made. She said that I am not an intellectual. She is right; I am not an intellectual, and many times I am thankful for that. But what I do recognise are things that are common sense, as I am used to working, as they say, where the rubber hits the road and people actually have to get out there and do something to make a dollar. That is where I come from and that is why United Future will still be supporting this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAs for the Hon Tony Ryall, he could not even interpret United Future\u2019s position on one bill, and he maintains that people should be able to sell things that they have stolen from somebody who legitimately made it at a cheaper price for the benefit of consumers. I say to Mr Ryall that if I steal a car I can sell it, obviously, cheaper than can the person who may have owned it legitimately. So I do not think that that argument cuts much ground, at all. But under this bill, the importer must know, or reasonably ought to have known, that the goods are pirated copies. This is what we are dealing with. This is a vast improvement, because under the current law copyright owners find it difficult to prove knowledge. It is open to importers to argue that they did not know or have reason to believe that the goods were pirated. Under this bill, the copyright owner will have to prove only that the importer knows or reasonably ought to have known that the goods were pirated. This is fair and of use to both importers and copyright owners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ELet us look at the issue of film distribution, which has been much spoken of in the course of conversations. This bill affords relief to those organisations involved in film distribution. By introducing a ban on parallel importation of videos and DVDs for a period of 9 months from the date of international cinema release, this bill addresses the concerns of film distributors\u2014the ones that have put all the money into making the films, etc. and who are concerned about the protection of their rights to control the intervals between video and television releases of films. It is giving protection to the people who have put all the money, time, and effort into producing something to be able to globally control the release of their product, and as we move into a global economy, I think that this makes sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe scope of this bill has clear parameters. It does not prohibit importation for a person\u2019s private or domestic use. Private individuals can rest assured that if they want to import a copy of a film for their own use, ahead of the New Zealand cinematic release, they are free to do so. This bill has already had a noticeable effect on New Zealand\u2019s good name in the international community. United Future is very interested in New Zealand having a good name in the international community. Partly as a result of the introduction of this bill into the House last December, the US trade representative has recently removed New Zealand\u2019s name from the Special 301 Watch List. This watch list is a register of countries that trade representatives have concerns about regarding the effect of the parallel importing ban on US citizens\u2019 intellectual property rights protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBefore New Zealand was taken off this dubious list, we were tagged with the likes of Bolivia and other countries hardly known for protecting intellectual property rights. Now, with the help of this bill, New Zealand\u2019s international reputation as a protector of the intellectual property rights of our citizens, and those of our trading partner is demonstrably healthier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E This bill is many things to many people. Importers and rights owners benefit from its passing. This bill goes some way to affirm our country\u2019s intent and international standing with regard to the protection of intellectual property. Our trading partners are assured of our statutory obligations to outlaw abuses and infringements to intellectual property in the film industry. United Future stands proudly, as a common-sense party, in support of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022e6e08d01a39847d2a8a16b268739ac6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e6e08d01a39847d2a8a16b268739ac6a\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E What a pity it is that Paul Adams and his \u201Csensible party\u201D do not understand and are totally confused by the difference between parallel importing and piracy. He has assumed that they are both the same. Parallel importing is the term for bringing goods in under a legitimate licence, parallel to the authorised licensee. Piracy is producing or importing goods without any licence and without any authority whatsoever. So Mr Adams should understand the difference between those two before he starts spouting on about how sensible his party is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI would like to carry on the debate on Part 2. The trademark of parallel importation is that it is done with a legitimate licence. It is a legitimate means of importing, and generally it is at a lower cost to the authorised licensee. Because a person has purchased it and has used the exchange rates of a much cheaper source, he or she can bring it in and distribute it here at a more realistic price for general consumption by the public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E One of those wide distributors is the Red Shed, which brings items in from overseas and is able to distribute them at a much lower price than a lot of other distributors can. It does not mean it has purchased pirated copies; it has purchased legitimate copies, but has sourced them from a cheaper location. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EProtection of the trademark is most important. Technologies these days have advanced to a great extent, and that means that a lot of products can be purchased over the Internet. Trademarks need to be protected, and I see this bill as a means of protecting them. The bill brings a more modern style of technology to the whole industry. The old Copyright Act of 1994 has fallen behind in terms of the technology side of things. It was put in place before DVDs were even thought of, and certainly before any were being distributed in this country. I suggest that this bill will fall behind in terms of the technology of the future, but at least it brings the current technology into line. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAs far as protecting small cinemas is concerned, the bill attempts to do that, but, unfortunately, it allows the genuine distribution by the authorised licensee to distribute from the day the films and products are distributed to the public internationally. There is no limit on when distributors can distribute, so if an authorised distributor decides it wants to distribute within a small range of cinemas only, then other cinemas outside that range will be limited. They will not be able to get access to the films, and they certainly will not be able to make any profit or gain on them while they are in high demand in the initial stages of their release. Finally, when the authorised distributor allows the small cinemas to show the film, it is usually at the slack period when the demand is falling off. So, because of the general control by the authorised distributor, the bill does not really protect smaller cinemas. I think the bill should have looked a little closer at that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E But in general, New Zealand First supports this bill, because it brings the technologies up to date and recognises technologies we could not even imagine when the original bill was discussed and debated. New Zealand First will be supporting the passage of this bill into the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002278e3a607501c417f9e297162e2c1827c\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 2 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000210\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022998e1572a2204d209216469bdaa8c899\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022 data-id=\u002278a8aa2db6e74969b8384efdfd158a9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278a8aa2db6e74969b8384efdfd158a9f\u0022\u003EHon JUDITH TIZARD (Minister of Consumer Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This bill amends the Copyright Act in five areas. First, it implements a ban on the parallel importing of motion picture films for 9 months after their first release. The Government did indeed state in the Speech from the Throne in 1999 that we would look at imposing a ban on the parallel importation of films, CDs, books, and software for a period of up to 2 years. However, after extensive consultation\u2014in fact, two rounds of consultation\u2014with users, producers, and distributors of copyright goods, this bill is the result. We have also put a great deal of support into the New Zealand creative industries concerned, and I think we are seeing the results of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe aim of the proposed bans in the Speech from the Throne was to ensure investment in New Zealand\u2019s creative industries and a decent income for people who put their lives, energies, and creative talents into films, CDs, books, and software. The consultation showed that banning parallel importing would not necessarily affect the investment in all those areas. However, it was clear that there were problems in the area of films, and this legislation addresses that area. It also addresses the major issue of piracy, and covers many copyright goods and other creative industry goods. We have introduced these targeted measures because they are a good idea. However, because we do have a commitment to ensure that New Zealanders have access to the widest range of goods at the best price, within the rights of copyright holders and licensees, we have made a limited provision that will remain in place for 5 years, during which time we will review it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThis amendment is also partly about ensuring the continued viability of picture theatres and the services they provide to communities, particularly in rural and provincial areas. A comment was made in the Committee stage that because picture theatres and their owners are doing very well, this ban is not necessary. However, in the Government\u2019s review of this issue, significant concern was raised by many people about the viability of picture theatres in rural and small communities. We recognise that this environment is a changing one. That is why we have put into the legislation a provision that after 5 years the ban will lapse, unless we decide to keep it going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EI also make a point relating to rental rights\u2014again, another point that was raised during the Committee stage. Concern was expressed that people on lower incomes may not be able to rent videos and DVDs within days of a film\u2019s theatre release. However, videos and DVDs of The Lord of the Rings, a New Zealand - produced product, were in video stores in New Zealand within days of the American premiere. They were pirated copies. It is absolutely unacceptable that people who have put their life\u2019s work into those areas should have their income undercut in that way. It was never intended under the Copyright Act that films would be available for rental within days of their theatre release. In fact, the High Court of New Zealand confirmed, and now this bill confirms, that rental rights on films, software, and sound recordings do apply to parallel-imported goods. It has never been the intention to alter the rights of copyright owners in respect of the rental of those types of goods. The bill merely confirms existing rental rights, and clarifies that right. We should also point out that the reality is that the cost of CDs and movie tickets in New Zealand is very low, internationally. I believe that New Zealanders are getting very good value for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EComing to the piracy issue, this bill reverses the onus of proof. It makes changes to the onus of proof in civil proceedings relating to the importation of infringing films, sound recordings, and computer programs. The onus will be on the defendant to rebut the presumption that the imported works are an infringing copy. Some copyright owners have sought more extensive changes to the onus of proof, to cover circumstances other than the act of importation. I want to keep that under review. However, we believe that it is appropriate to limit the amendment now to importation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EChanging the onus of proof involves a change to a fundamental legal principle, and requires a measured approach. This bill focuses on importation as importers, rather than copyright owners, are more likely to have access to information that demonstrates the goods\u2019 authenticity. We give warning that where people are importing copyright goods, they will need to be able to demonstrate that those goods are not pirated. Reputable importers would keep such records, as a matter of good business practice. In the Committee stage there were suggestions that that was a major problem, but we do reiterate that the provision applies only to importers. It applies to films, sound recordings, and software. It is not onerous, as importers will have to have that necessary information in order to defend their right to import. I also note that if the owners of copyright are also business people, they have a legitimate right to be able to enforce their copyright in goods that they have invested in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EI also point out to the ACT speaker that the bill does not impose any new responsibilities on the New Zealand Customs Service. The idea that customs officers would sit and watch every video or listen to every CD is just ludicrous. It is a matter of being able to demonstrate that those goods are not pirated. That is a moderate and reasonable test. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill introduces an objective knowledge requirement in relation to importation cases. Under the current Act the defendant must not know, or have reason to believe, that the work is an infringing copy. The new test will be that the defendant knows, or has reason to know, that the work is an infringing copy. That change applies only to films, sound recordings, and computer programs. The current test continues to apply to all other copyright works. Those changes in the onus of proof and knowledge requirement apply to products that are particularly susceptible to piracy. The changes will assist copyright owners to take effective action against piracy, which is destroying the incomes of many New Zealand creative producers, and the people they license to sell those goods. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EThe bill also clarifies the scope of the rental right granted under section 9 of the Copyright Act. I have talked about the fact that it confirms the High Court\u2019s interpretation of section 9 of the Act in the case of Video Ezy International (NZ) Ltd v Roadshow Entertainment (NZ) Ltd. It also makes consequential amendments to the Trade Marks Act 2002, so the trademarks and copyright legislation are consistent on the issue of parallel importing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003EIn conclusion, I thank the members of the Commerce Committee and the officials, particularly the officials from the Ministry of Economic Development, for their work on this bill. These changes form part of the Government\u2019s overall commitment to encourage and facilitate the growth of New Zealand\u2019s creative industries and New Zealand\u2019s opportunities to get employment and income from those industries. They will also ensure that our intellectual property regime is robust and balanced. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022 data-id=\u002259d9103db655480c860c4acfaf7f085e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259d9103db655480c860c4acfaf7f085e\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty):\u003C/span\u003E In reporting back to you, Mr Speaker, on the Committee stage of this bill, I draw to your attention the lengthy comparison members made between what the Prime Minister promised and what the Government is delivering. In her Speech from the Throne, which followed only a few days after she gave $89 million of taxpayers\u2019 money to the arts, the Prime Minister promised to deliver to the arts community a prohibition for 2 years on the parallel importing of CDs, videos, films, books, and software. It has to be asked where any of that is. Helen Clark promised a 2-year import ban on software in this bill. Is it there? No. She also promised a 2-year ban on importing books and films in this bill. Is it there? No. Helen Clark promised, in the Speech from the Throne, a ban on the parallel importing of CDs and DVDs for 2 years. Is it there? No. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Government was told by its officials, and by many submissioners in its consultation process on this issue, that Helen Clark did not know what she was talking about. That was a promise made on the hoof, to try to curry favour with a small group that the Prime Minister likes to be f\u00EAted by. It never stacked up, it was always a joke, and the Prime Minister was told that by the public servants and by those people who made submissions during two rounds of consultation. The papers showed the ridiculous situation of Paul Swain saying that we would have a 2-year ban on books being imported into New Zealand after their release, but libraries would not be banned from doing that, nor would the Government. That was quite ridiculous. That is how bad it was. It is no wonder he was dumped as the Minister of Commerce, with that sort of woolly, stupid thinking. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party in Opposition opposes strongly the Government\u2019s silly 9-month ban on the importation of DVDs and videos. We oppose it because it is stupid, anti-competitive, and anti-choice. It will deny choice to a whole lot of New Zealanders. On the other hand it may be nothing but puffery, because we have been told in the Committee stage that the 9 months applies from the international release of the video, DVD, or film. That means that if a film is released in the summer in Europe\u2014I am sure, Mr Speaker, you have been in Europe in summer, and you will know that a lot of films are released at that time\u2014it may be another 6 months before it comes here. So this ban may apply for only 3 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWe also know that there is no ban on the owner of the copyright importing a DVD into New Zealand, even before the international release of the film. There is no ban on the owner of the copyright to the video or DVD importing it, and putting it on the shelves of video shops around New Zealand on the very day of the international release. That is not caught, nor is the personal importation of DVDs or videos. While we are not allowed to go down to the video shop in Hawera or Eketahuna to get a video, we can get on the Internet, order it, and have it within 2 days. So if people can afford to buy a DVD or video, this bill will not apply to them. There are so many problems with this bill and with the Government\u2019s programme to try to ban the importation of videos and DVDs within 9 months of the international release of films. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe National Party asks why the Prime Minister did not just admit she was, yet again, foolish, and spoke before she thought about it. She made a silly election promise, trying to pander to the favourite little group that she likes to pander to, and nothing has come of it. The official papers, which we managed to prise out of the Government under the Official Information Act, show that the Government spent 2 years trying to find something that it could window dress to look like the Prime Minister\u2019s promise in the Speech from the Throne. The fact is that the Prime Minister has delivered zip. She promised a 2-year ban on videos, DVDs, books, and software, and what has she delivered? She has delivered a 9-month ban on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EWhat does this legislation actually do? It tries to affect a few people who the Government thinks are somehow people who have their hands in the till. Those are the people whom the Government wants to target: people who may have their hands in the till. The Government is trying to say to them that they should not be allowed to act in a way that satisfies the demands of ordinary New Zealanders. It is the ordinary New Zealanders who will miss out\u2014the ordinary New Zealanders who are hard-working, stay in their jobs, and obey the law. They are the people who will miss out under this ban, because they will be denied the right to go down to the local video shop and hire a DVD or a video within 9 months of the public release of the film. Frankly, I think that is outrageous. It is outrageous because it is a denial of the choice that New Zealanders have become used to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003ENew Zealanders have become used to the fact that they can go to the video shop and rent a recent release. That is why that stand at the video shop is called \u201CRecent Releases\u201D; they are quite recent in terms of the release date of the film. This Government has now proposed that ordinary people should not be able to rent a video within 9 months of the release of the film. That is the consequence of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b19872764804cf3bee09ed1e6012997\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: No! Absolute rubbish! Get back on to the subject.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022394cfe58f752412bbe8cfb516bb8990c\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Baldock that this legislation is a denial of a right of ordinary New Zealanders to go to their video shop. The United Future party endorsed the Care of Children Bill, endorsed lesbian fathers, and endorsed 12-year-olds having abortions without informing their parents, because United Future members had not read the bill. I say to Mr Baldock that he has not read this bill. If he reads this bill, as he should have read that bill, the Care of Children Bill, which the United Future party endorsed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1ba031f6c745f894a784033fd6b0c6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will come back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257a4b7907b2649ae98646dd23d1efc9b\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: The point I am making is that the member has not read the bill. If he had read the bill, then he would not have made the interjection he just did that this measure will not restrict people\u2019s choice at the video shop. I can table the press release of United Future supporting the Care of Children Bill\u2014endorsing it in this House\u2014because United Future members had not read it. If they had read it, their position would now be to oppose it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b34a56c55b6f4f29bc5313ace5bdc549\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Table it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022337b27c86a3b4d6aafc1ef8c9ef6463d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: I will table it later\u2014the press release showing United Future supported the Care of Children Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa57b51deada4172944aa24d5bcbc6e6\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s that got to do with this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f05a41c4f714ce6ba1ba80d6fc9bd9f\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL\u003C/span\u003E: It has to do with the fact that they have not read the bill. If they had read the bill, they would know that it denies ordinary New Zealanders the choice of going to the video shop. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EThe Government was told this legislation would not work. This will not save one provincial theatre in New Zealand. It will not save a picture theatre in Temuka from closing. It will not have any effect whatsoever on that, and the Government was told that it would have no effect. On the very day after we heard about a record performance by Sky City Leisure, which owns a chain of theatres up and down New Zealand, including provincial New Zealand, the Government is trying to say provincial theatres need protection. The fact is that they do not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EOrdinary New Zealanders need choice. That is what we in the National Party Opposition stand for. We stand for choice. Parallel importing has delivered huge amounts of choice to ordinary New Zealanders. It has reduced the cost of books, videos, CDs, and software, but it was opposed by the Labour Party. The Labour Party has to realise that this proposal to stop people buying Finding Nemo for their kids for Christmas is a joke. It is a denial of choice, and it says to New Zealanders that they have no right to get those cheap products. That is quite wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u00225c0d43e76fc245d3b990bf5c8c0a22ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c0d43e76fc245d3b990bf5c8c0a22ae\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call and speak in support of this bill. First of all, I would like to thank the chairman of the Commerce Committee, Mark Peck, for all the work he put into this bill, the officials for the tremendous amount of support they gave the select committee, and for the work they put into the bill, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EGenerally, New Zealand First is supportive of this bill as it updates the Copyright Act to bring it into line with rapidly changing technology and film formats. Since the introduction of the Copyright Act in 1994, we have seen an expansion of VHS videos, video CDs, and the introduction of DVDs. We have seen the development of the Internet to levels that were not imagined in 1994. We have seen the introduction of electronic books, and the expansion of parallel imports. Parallel imports have grown beyond all expectations, particularly the parallel importation of films for distribution and rental prior to cinematic release in New Zealand, helped by the development of the Internet. That has resulted in a decline in cinema patronage and in the New Zealand film industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThis bill provides a ban on parallel imports of films, including DVDs, VHS videos, and video CDs, for a period of 9 months from the time the title is released internationally. It is important that we realise that it is from the time the film is released internationally. We are lucky that The Return of the King, the final in the triology of The Lord of the Rings, is to be released internationally here at the end of next month. Genuine authorised licence-holders are allowed to distribute DVDs and videos of that film from the date it is released internationally. If they choose to release them on the day the film is presented internationally, then they are entitled to do so. The 9-month ban does not restrict the distribution of DVDs through the authorised licence-holder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIn its submission, the New Zealand Motion Picture Exhibitors Association expressed concern about the unrestricted parallel importation of films, DVDs, and videos, and supported the 9-month ban on the parallel importation of film. The bill\u2019s original intention was to protect cinematic distribution from the release of the DVD and other formats. However, in its present form the bill allows the authorised distributor the right to determine those protections and when the release will take place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThis ban\u2014and it was not mentioned during the Committee stage, which I was quite surprised about\u2014lapses after 5 years. The assumption is that technologies and the means of distribution will have changed dramatically in that 5-year period. But a lot of the equipment still around today for the general distribution of film is many years old. I suggest that any projection equipment that has been purchased in the last 5 years will have another 10, 15, or 20 years of life left in it, and therefore the 5-year lapse period is a bit optimistic. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EWe received submissions expressing concern that a large proportion of region 1 catalogue films have not been released in New Zealand, and are being restricted by the local distributor. That means that local distributors control the release of those products, and therefore they are managing to restrict the distribution of those films and sound recordings because they are not allowing those catalogues to be distributed in New Zealand. Parallel importers can, if they wish, get a licence to import those catalogues, but many of them do not have the opportunity because of the restrictions put on them by the authorised distributor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIn their submissions, learning institutions expressed concern that although they are able to parallel-import electronic books, journals, and other films and DVDs, they run into the problem of a sound clip or movie clip embedded within electronic books that has not been officially released in New Zealand and is within the 9-month period of international release. Under this bill, they are not allowed to distribute that film within their learning institute as freely as they would like. As a result of that restriction, they are then forced to rely on importation through the authorised licensee, who might well restrict the time period in which they are allowed to show it, and that would certainly add considerable cost to the importation of that sound bite. It might be only a portion within a particular e-book or e-magazine imported by the institution, but it was a major concern. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe bill changes the onus of proof to the importer of the films, DVDs, videos, CDs, and sound recordings, compelling him or her to prove that those items were not infringing copies. In other words, those people are assumed to be guilty until they prove that they have received those items from a legitimate source. The concern here was that those importers are running a legitimate business, importing from legitimate parallel-importers, and have done so for many years. I suggest that the likes of the Warehouse could be in that position. It could quite easily be stopped from importing some of its goods, simply by an authorised licensee stating\u2014without any proof or evidence, just the suggestion\u2014that he or she believed that some of those goods were pirated. That would make the Warehouse guilty until it proved it was innocent. Yet it would have been parallel-importing from legitimate sources for a long time, and have had no intention of importing pirated goods. But this bill puts that inference there, and it could make the Warehouse guilty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EIn winding up, I want to say that New Zealand First supports this bill, simply because it updates the old bill with the new technologies and brings it into line with modern technology.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022149a78e34e774c9583efa4e15d8c9d99\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022149a78e34e774c9583efa4e15d8c9d99\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party opposes this bill. It is just a pay-off to the Prime Minister\u2019s supporters in the arts, and it is also a feeble attempt to appease American interests. In 1999 in the Speech from the Throne the Prime Minister included a statement that parallel importing of CDs, videos, films, books, and software was to be prohibited for 2 years after the first release. As we have already heard, the Ministry of Economic Development conducted a review because of this. It was claimed that this review was announced because plans to ban parallel importation had secured New Zealand\u2019s removal from the United States Special 301 Watch List for nations with, as the US said, inadequate copyright protection laws. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAs I have already said, this bill is not about protecting copyright. Copyright is an intellectual property right, and the ACT party protects property rights probably more than any other party in this House, and intellectual property is no different. But this is about protecting the licensing rights of certain distribution companies, and it is about protecting the market for theatre companies throughout New Zealand. This legislation will do more to promote the breaching of copyright than if there were no law protecting copyright at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAs the bill states, the ban on parallel importing was this Government\u2019s warped attempt to try to promote New Zealand\u2019s creative industries. The Minister stood up before and said that it heard submissions from rural and provincial theatre companies that were not doing well in the market, and that needed protection from the Government, and she said that they were struggling to survive. So this Government has brought in legislation to protect rural and provincial theatres. What is this Government doing to protect rural and provincial schools that are being closed down in an unprecedented way around this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bba8d96f77c14654907951155b48657b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Would the member please come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283a1f0f4ffcf4398ab80ab5b02c0ae41\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I will return to the bill, but I just ask the Government to think about this. Does this Government consider only the friends of Judith Tizard in the film distribution business when it thinks of creative industries? Is the knowledge wave economy not something to do with creative industries? This bill is ostensibly to protect creative industries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI would also ask that the Minister stop and think what this legislation will do to the local New Zealand music industry, which I would argue is one of the best in the world. We have in this country some of the best songwriters and musicians in the world, and when I was in Cambridge earlier this year I was proud to take New Zealand CDs with me. But this bill will create monopolies and protect those who have lobbied hardest at Government level to ban parallel importing. Where will this drive consumers who do not want to pay inflated prices for their CDs? It will drive them to the Internet. It will promote the piracy and the burning. Worldwide music sales are down, and the major reason is CD piracy. Modern computer technology makes it very easy to copy music, and young people think it is normal to get free music downloads off the Internet. They are actually growing up now to think it is normal to breach the copyright of music and to burn CDs. They do not even think of it as pirating. Many of these people copy for personal gain, which is a breach of copyright, and then they go further and sell pirated CDs at school, gigs, markets, and universities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIf one needs any further proof of what a parallel importing ban will do to the music industry, look no further than the well-publicised trial in America where Napster was taken to court by Metallica\u2014the hard-rock music band\u2014which, along with the rest of the music industry, was screaming blue murder over copyright infringement. Napster argued that it was only providing a forum for music swaps and thus not infringing copyright. How will this bill protect this dubious practice from happening? It will not. The Internet drills holes through international boundaries, and this legislation is a 1950s solution forced on to New Zealanders who are no longer locked up behind the Government\u2019s patrolled fences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ENew Zealand is not on the US Special 301 Watch List because its copyright laws are poor, but because overseas copyright owners and the local exclusive licensees were placed by the parallel importing allowances in the same position as New Zealand originators of unique or branded material. That is, they had to enforce their rights themselves. In other words, the US copyright holders lost their free New Zealand - supplied enforcement service at the borders of this country\u2014the New Zealand Customs Service. The Minister argued that customs would not be involved in this at all, and argued that there would be no onus on customs officers to view what is coming in, to see whether it will breach this legislation when it is passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E If that is the case, why are we passing the legislation, and who will enforce it? I see that the Minister cannot address that question any more, but what is the point of going through the farce of passing this legislation if it will not be enforced? All it will do is raise the uncertainty and doubt in the minds of people who are not breaking the law, and then when they find that they have to try to defend themselves, the onus of proof is reversed so that they are guilty until proven innocent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ESo this Government will give our American friends free protection of their licensed rights, their exclusive licensees free protection. It will protect their copyright, because they will not be required to do it any more\u2014not for 9 months, anyway. It will also give a guaranteed protected monopoly market until a film, DVD, or piece of music is no longer in high demand. I have already said that the people who will be worst affected by this legislation are the people the Labour Party used to count on as its supporters. It will be the people who cannot afford to take six children to the movies to see Finding Nemo when it is first released, who would have been able to rent it from the local Video Ezy, but will no longer be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EHow far behind this bill will the print publishing industry be? Will the Government now move to ban the parallel importing of books? How will it control that industry as the print-on-demand book technology develops? The Warehouse has benefited thousands of New Zealanders by being able to offer books at a fraction of the price the big book chains demand. The Government has said that it has backed off books, including books in this bill, \u201Cfor the time being\u201D. I would say to the people out there who enjoy reading books, to be very afraid. There is some weird belief that this bill will encourage an increase in international investment in, and overseas promotion of, New Zealand creative talent. The biggest barrier to investment in New Zealand creative talent in this country is the fact that the Government, especially in the film industry and the New Zealand Film Commission, scares away investment by behaving like some sort of commissar of culture in a studio. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EI finish by saying that parallel importing has benefited all consumers at the expense of a few monopoly-licence holders. Consumers will suffer as a result of this bill, and we do not support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u002229570d3bf5df4dc485e8559ea864f361\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002229570d3bf5df4dc485e8559ea864f361\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is pleased to support the protection and the check on unscrupulous and powerful interests that this bill provides. We would not have been unhappy with a greater level of protection to small, local, specialist book and record stores. In an earlier speech the Hon Tony Ryall lauded the availability of cheaper products that resulted from the introduction of parallel imports by a Government of which he was part. Cheaper products have been won at the expense of local businesses and local manufacturers frequently. That provision has made small specialist stores in smaller provincial and rural communities largely extinct. Even in the cities it has threatened the species. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThose are the stores that provide the real choice of which the Hon Tony Ryall spoke. They are the ones that will give people the specialist products such as blues records, and those specialist things that one does not get, and are not the bulk-purchased products. They have been put at risk by earlier parallel importing provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe bill is modest legislation that we hope ensures that the provincial cinemas do not become similarly threatened and extinct, because they provide another level of choice in those small communities. It is not a choice between cheap, cheaper, or cheapest version of the DVD, but a choice between the right to go to a movie and the right to watch it in one\u2019s own home. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EIt probably is not possible to protect, or give absolute protection, in the age of the Internet. That perhaps relies on the integrity of ordinary New Zealanders to have some respect for the rights of people who have put the energy and creativity into producing the kinds of movies that we all enjoy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe \u201Conus of proof\u201D provisions may ring alarm bells, but they are really a common-sense measure at a time when technology makes pirated copying a simple process. In fact, as I said earlier, businesses would be wise to make sure that the products they are dealing in have not come from illegitimate sources. As I said earlier, film makers who have provided us with creativity and the energy have a right to the protection that the bill provides, and we are pleased to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225d409cfd16ed404a9115acb36e12b771\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Copyright (Parallel Importation of Films and Onus of Proof) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee38a1c3845e45d18a58d0ed0bdd0503\u0022\u003ERetirement Villages Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224ae2b543c354408188c4cbb47c6a08be\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000267\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 12 August.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002246887c3d979347069496ecf5e5fa4ba4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002246887c3d979347069496ecf5e5fa4ba4\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I have not had a chance to discuss this matter with the other parties at all and they may well object. However, while I know that some parties have different issues, and one or two are not in support of the bill, I wonder whether it would be helpful to the Committee to have just one wide-ranging debate in the Committee stage, and I seek leave accordingly. If parties do not agree, obviously they can oppose it. However, I seek leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022de66319564bb4413bafeba5aff908579\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022de66319564bb4413bafeba5aff908579\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. I could not hear what the member said. Could he please repeat that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc41aec3b4614c268f04dc5f4ee85700\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc41aec3b4614c268f04dc5f4ee85700\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I sought leave to have one wide-ranging debate in the Committee stage for a considerable length of time so that we can debate the issues and pick them up as we want to, rather than have a part-by-part debate. As I said, I have not had a chance to discuss it with any other parties. If the member objects, then obviously it will not happen, and we will debate the bill part by part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u002270b70642d148484e93a50f9f40056b20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270b70642d148484e93a50f9f40056b20\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought. Is there any objection to that course? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002290742cea54554b8a8065bd441000530f\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 78, and schedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbd1ecaa428d45088e8cc439b1c36746\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbd1ecaa428d45088e8cc439b1c36746\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E We are all pleased to see the Retirement Villages Bill in the House today. This bill has been awaited by the Retirement Villages Association, as well as those people who currently live in retirement villages. Retirement villages have developed over the past 10 to 15 years as an excellent lifestyle choice for many New Zealanders. They give security, companionship, and support, and a very large percentage of those people who have entered retirement villages are very happy with the services they have received. However, the legislation that covers retirement villages has not been clear and concise, and there has not been a specific Act of Parliament that has covered that industry and the people who live within it. While 19 to 95 percent of retirement villages are run extremely well and deliver a very good lifestyle for those within them, there are a few, as is always the case, that do not provide the same level of service and care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E The Law Commission work on retirement villages signalled the need for a bill, and when I became a member of Parliament I had a member\u2019s bill that went into the ballot, promoting the need for retirement villages legislation. That member\u2019s bill had not been pulled out of the ballot before the Government was pushed to develop its own bill. Later this week under urgency we will debate the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, which has sat on the Order Paper year after year without being debated, and it is pleasing to see that there is a commitment to getting this bill through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe concern from the Retirement Villages Association of New Zealand residents has been about having legislation that makes it clear, when someone enters a retirement village, exactly what that person is buying into. As a geriatrician, I work with many people who have entered rest homes, continuing care units, and retirement villages. In the South Island, there tends to be a combination of that style of home, in which the three types of facility are together. In the North Island, however, there tends to be much more emphasis on larger retirement villages. Some of them have rest homes and continuing care units in order to market all-of-life cover, but many do not. There is quite a variation between the North Island and the South Island. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EOne of the concerns is that sometimes, when people buy into a retirement village, neither they nor their lawyer have looked clearly through the fine print, and they have not understood what the implications are if they wish to leave a retirement village. The disclosure documents make it very clear to people what they are buying into. There are two types of village: one in which people have a licence to occupy, and another in which people have a unit title. The \u201Clicence to occupy\u201D concept is that people are buying into a lifestyle\u2014especially if they are living on their own\u2014where they have a call button, assistance if needed, protection and security, maintenance, gardening, and the companionship of those around them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EA lot of people have not understood exactly what they have bought into when they move into a retirement village. Grey Power has been particularly active in talking about the concerns that it has in cases when an operator may not have met obligations or the need for disputes resolution within a home. Sometimes there is one resident who makes it very difficult for other residents, and often the disputes are between residents, as opposed to the operator of the home. The village in itself has to be protected for all of those within the village so that it is a viable entity and unit, as opposed to functioning for the needs or wishes of one person. Setting up a disputes resolution process has been very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIn addition, the statutory supervisors, which all of those retirement village members who were part of the Retirement Villages Association had, will now be compulsory. Statutory supervision will represent the good of the village overall, as well as the needs of the individuals who live within those villages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002251a31b287d04400e83618108b4d6aee4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002251a31b287d04400e83618108b4d6aee4\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E We meet here in the Chamber on 21 October, as far as Parliament is concerned\u2014although other people might think it is 22 October\u2014and we are debating the Retirement Villages Bill. This bill had a very long consideration by the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I mentioned in the report-back debate that the drafting was about as fine as it could possibly be. I am disappointed that the Government has now issued a 15-page Supplementary Order Paper for us to digest and include in the bill under urgency. I wonder what consultation has taken place with regard to that Supplementary Order Paper and what opportunity all the submitters have had to consider it. I know that New Zealand First saw it for the first time when it was tabled in the House on 16 October. It is disappointing that we were not given the opportunity to discuss it any earlier. This is the first I have seen of it since that day, which was a Thursday; being a Thursday, it was easy to miss it until one got back to the House on the Tuesday of the following week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI take the view that the Government\u2019s lack of consultation is totally unhelpful to those of us who were trying to be as helpful as we possibly could in the select committee in order to get this important legislation through the House. I note that the Bills Digest has been issued, and I compliment the Parliamentary Library on the way in which it has prepared it. It has helped to clarify the major issues in the Supplementary Order Paper. Under the main heading \u201CMain changes proposed by SOP\u201D, there is a section headed \u201CWhat is a \u2018retirement village\u2019\u201D, which I think it is helpful to quote because this is one of the areas of confusion: \u201CThe SOP makes it clear that if one or more \u2018residential units\u2019 are located in a \u2018rest home\u2019 or \u2018hospital care institution\u2019, the only parts of that rest home or hospital care institution that comprise, or are included in, the retirement village are the residential unit or units themselves and the common areas and facilities within the rest home or hospital care institution (if any) to which the residents of the unit or units have access only by reason of their occupation right agreement.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe next section is headed \u201CCertain residential units not retirement villages\u201D and states: \u201CThe Bill describes certain types of habitation which are not retirement villages including residential units registered under the Unit Titles Act 1972 or owner-occupied cross-lease residential units.\u201D I refer to cross-lease residential units, because Mr Murray Smith made a big song and dance about a property that was comprised of cross-lease residential units, which he thought might have a change in their status as a result of this bill. I questioned at the time, and I question again, his view of the matter. I would be interested to hear the outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Bills Digest goes on to state: \u201CThe SOP makes it clear that it is \u2018owner-occupied\u2019 residential units registered under the Unit Titles Act 1972 which are excluded (as well as owner-occupied cross-lease residential units). Also excluded are \u2018similar residential units\u2019. The SOP qualifies this with the words \u2018that are not intended to provide accommodation predominantly for retired people and their spouses or partners.\u2019 \u201D A degree of uncertainty is starting to creep into this legislation. It is clear that a unit title property or a cross-lease residential unit is excluded. What is usually included in this type of legislation is what we call in the North Island, in the Auckland area, \u201Clicences to occupy\u201D. They tend to get caught up in residential villages. Hopefully, those practitioners will be able to understand the words referring to similar residential units \u201Cthat are not intended to provide accommodation predominantly for retired people and their spouses or partners.\u201D I will be interested to hear from the Minister in the chair, Lianne Dalziel, just how much consultation has taken place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe main controversial provision in this bill will be clause 29A, \u201COccupation right agreement voidable\u201D. It was included in the bill only by a majority of the members of the select committee. The reason why there was opposition to it is that clause 29A as introduced by the majority of the select committee creates uncertainty. There is an occupation right agreement, and there are all the protections that are given now to the people entering into the agreement\u2014usually the retirement village operator and the retiree. However, the bill as it was reported back states, in clause 29A(1): \u201CAn occupation right agreement entered into in contravention of section 17(3) or section 24(1) or section 26 or section 29(1) is voidable by the resident by notice in writing to the operator and to the statutory supervisor of the village (if there is one) given at any time within 3 years of the date the agreement was entered into.\u201D That is, obviously, extremely uncertain. Who would go into business to provide retirement village facilities if the contract might be cancelled within 3 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am pleased with, and I would like to congratulate the Minister on, the amended clause 29A, which is a vast improvement. It still is not satisfactory, because I feel that if, after all the protection that has been given under this bill, a person is still not happy with the agreement, there should not be the length of time that is proposed to cancel it. However, the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 157 provides: \u201C(1) If an occupation right agreement is entered in contravention [the sections] in any substantial respect, the agreement is, unless it has been terminated, voidable by the resident by notice in writing to the operator and to the statutory supervisor of the village (if there is one) given at any time within the prescribed period.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThere is a very useful definition of \u201Cprescribed period\u201D, and I have to congratulate the draftsman on it. But there will be a problem as to what is meant by \u201Cany substantial respect\u201D. Efforts have been made to define what is meant by these phrases, but interpreting them will be difficult. The \u201Cprescribed period\u201D will probably be the very important one, and all practitioners will have to be very careful about setting the dates as to when the prescribed periods begin and end. When one goes into the lawyer\u2019s office and signs the contract, or when the contract is signed with the operator\u2014the beginning\u2014will be just as important as the end, because one will not know when the period has expired unless one knows when it began. The prescribed period is the lesser of \u201C(i) a period of 3 years after the date on which the agreement was entered into; or (ii) a period of 6 months after the resident knows, or ought to know, of the contravention:\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe difficulty in this entire area is that so often it is not the resident who complains, because the resident has passed away; the argument is with the family. We try to do our very best in this Parliament, but I think we are going overboard in so far as this legislation is concerned, because this is a very difficult thing to deal with. For older people who cannot remember what they have done, 3 years can be a very long time, as we know from our own relatives. When we go to see our parents they say: \u201CYou haven\u2019t been to see me for a long time.\u201D, yet we were there only the day before. It is a difficult piece of legislation, and I think clause 29A goes a little bit too far, even with the alterations that have been made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI conclude by asking the Minister at some stage to let us know what consultation has taken place. I do not intend to spend a terribly long time on this Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u002287c5064c8b764444880b17612de22279\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287c5064c8b764444880b17612de22279\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to see the Retirement Villages Bill coming back for its Committee stage and then its third reading. United Future has been pushing for this bill to pass through all its stages as quickly as possible. The Committee will remember that the second reading debate took place because United Future specifically requested it be included in the urgency held earlier this year, and we have also been pushing for this bill to be included in this lot of urgency. We finally see, very pleasingly, that the protection this bill will afford residents in retirement villages is getting a bit closer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI note the commencement date is February next year for some provisions. That is good, but in terms of the other work that has to be done, with regulations being formatted, it seems it may not be until August next year that the full effect, and particularly the appointment of statutory supervisors, will occur. So we are still some months away from seeing the full effect of this bill, and the sooner we can see it, the better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003ELooking at Supplementary Order Paper 157, and particularly looking at issues with regard to the statutory supervisor\u2019s role, I have a number of comments I wish to make under those categories. Firstly, I welcome the change to clause 13(2)(c)(ii), which now provides that a statutory supervisor does not have to certify that financial statements comply with the Financial Reporting Act, but simply has to state that they comply \u201Cto the best of the supervisor\u2019s knowledge and belief\u201D. That was a concern for statutory supervisors. It arose from discussions I had with statutory supervisors on the bill and its format. I am very pleased to see that the Government has agreed to change that provision, to lower the threshold that statutory supervisors need to comply with. Otherwise, statutory supervisors would have had to inspect financial statements and go through, effectively, an audit before they could say they complied\u2014as opposed to \u201Cto the best of the supervisor\u2019s knowledge and belief\u201D. That would have added significantly to their costs, and that extra cost would have been passed on to retirement villages and then on to residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI also allude to Supplementary Order Paper 129, which I have lodged, which would add a clause 41B. This was another change that was keenly sought by the statutory supervisors. In essence, the clause provides that certain disputes that are notified to the operators\u2014in particular, ones that affect a significant number of the retirement village\u2019s residents, or the general operation of the village, or the operator\u2019s rights and obligations under the deed of supervision\u2014have to be notified to the statutory supervisors. Not all disputes have to be notified. The wording of the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 129 has been phrased so that not every dispute needs be notified to the statutory supervisors, but only those of some significance. Obviously, the statutory supervisors\u2019 role is to protect the interests of the residents as a whole, and, therefore, if a dispute is lodged that affects a significant number of the retirement village\u2019s residents, the statutory supervisors ought to be aware of that. The amendment I have lodged does not say that the statutory supervisors have an automatic right to get involved; nevertheless, if they see something happening, and have a feel for what is happening in the village, they can take appropriate action if they feel that intervention is necessary. Surely, at the end of the day, that is the role we ask the statutory supervisors to fulfil.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EClause 41B also covers the general operation of the village, and, again, the statutory supervisors are in a position to oversee the general operation. If the supervisors cannot get prior warning of disputes arising, by getting notification of those disputes at the earliest possible time, then that will fetter their obligation to do the job they are employed to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe third area is where the operator\u2019s rights and obligations under the deed of supervision have been affected by the dispute. The deed of supervision is the key document that the statutory supervisors are obliged to look at and take cognisance of when dealing with operators.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022511ece048f8f4a259ff82a1a881a3f2d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022511ece048f8f4a259ff82a1a881a3f2d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I particularly wanted to follow Murray Smith to thank United Future for requesting that this bill be dealt with within the urgency motion. I also thank Mr Smith for his very helpful contribution, not only on the Justice and Electoral Committee, which was very ably chaired by my colleague Tim Barnett, but also in assisting the Government in developing a Supplementary Order Paper to deal with the matters he has just addressed. The Government is very happy to support those amendments in respect of the involvement of the statutory supervisors.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI should say, by way of a little bit of background in the Committee stage, that it was actually in my previous capacity as Minister for Senior Citizens that I introduced this bill, and now I take it through its Committee stage and third reading as Associate Minister of Justice. It was interesting to reflect back over the last few days on the original letters I received when I became the Minister for Senior Citizens, and the kinds of examples that were given to me of people who really had no idea of what they were signing up to. The tragedy was that many of those who signed up to entry into retirement villages had actually taken legal advice before they put their signatures on the bottom line. Unfortunately, what we discovered pretty soon was that, in fact, a number of lawyers had no real understanding of the whole concept of a licence to occupy, and that a large number of people living in retirement village complexes, from one end of the country to the other, thought they owned a piece of property that they themselves could sell. I tried to encapsulate the burden placed upon those people in a simple phrase, so that I could communicate it to others as I spoke at meetings around the country, and the very point I made was that by investing in a retirement village one is not buying property one can sell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EWhat is so good about this legislation is that all that information is explained in plain language upfront, so that right at the very outset people know they are not buying property that they can sell. They know they have a licence to occupy, and they know what monies will be deducted from their investment should they leave the retirement village or, with regard to their estate, should they die. I think Dail Jones made some very good points. He is right that many of the debates that have occurred in terms of retirement villages have not occurred with the individual who entered into the agreement; but with the family who has inherited the estate of someone who has passed away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI wanted to clarify matters in respect of Supplementary Order Paper 157. A lot of the provisions are minor, technical amendments, and I think the member would agree with that. But I take on board his comments in respect of clause 29A, and refer him to new subclause (5), which will provide the clarity he is seeking: \u201CFor the purposes of this section, a contravention of a particular provision is a contravention of that provision in a substantial respect if\u2014(a) the contravention involves a significant detriment to the resident; or (b) the contravention is otherwise material, and is not solely technical or minor in character; or (c) the contravention involves deliberate misconduct on the part of the operator.\u201D With that clarity in the legislation I do not think the clause itself will have much difficulty in being interpreted. It is not intended to catch technical and minor defects in approach, or contraventions of the particular provision; it is designed to catch material breaches that have an impact on the resident\u2014particularly if there is deliberate misconduct, which would not be excluded, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI wanted to acknowledge the work of the Justice and Electoral Committee. The select committee has played an amazing role in hearing submissions. Often it has been a case of trying to balance competing interests. We have had Grey Power, representing consumer interests, on one side of the equation, and the Retirement Villages Association on the other. I have seen the competing interests try to find a workable solution that works on both sides of the equation\u2014a position of balance. I congratulate all members of the Committee on their contributions on this important legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022a39a4d3c276546ab9d77674773179224\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a39a4d3c276546ab9d77674773179224\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to follow the Associate Minister of Justice Lianne Dalziel, because I also want to congratulate the Justice and Electoral Committee, and particularly the National and ACT members of that committee, who made a substantial improvement to this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ENational members still have some concerns, especially about the increased compliance costs that will be imposed on villages. We have looked at the consequences of those compliance costs. The likely compliance costs of smaller operators in particular are of concern. In my member\u2019s bill facilities of up to six units were exempt. But in the Supplementary Order Paper that the Minister has introduced, coverage has been expanded under clause 6 to include stand-alone residential care facilities and hospital care institutions providing care for older people, if two or more residential units in those complexes offer occupancy in return for capital sums. This clause basically captures all the alternatives\u2014unless someone happens to have a granny flat. All of those are included in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe have to ask who will pay the price. Who will pay the cost of the statutory supervision, of the disputes resolution process, and of the regulations that come under this bill? There will be increased compliance costs. That must be recognised, and it was a concern to National. National feels that this Government has put a huge number of increased compliance costs on businesses in our communities, and does not take this issue seriously enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBut the select committee did make a lot of substantial changes. Grey Power gets representation from the small number of people who are having problems, not from the 99 percent who are not having problems. Because of that, it wanted to look at the buy-back provisions. The Minister mentioned that one is not buying a property, especially in the case of a licence to occupy; when one moves into a village one is buying a lifestyle. There has been a lot of concern about the fact that if, when somebody dies, the house is not sold on, ongoing costs are incurred. If the village is being developed, the new units often are the ones that get sold, and the unoccupied units do not. So there was a marked amount of debate about that buy-back clause. The Supplementary Order Paper makes some changes. I think a balance has been obtained. People need to realise that the situation is fine while we are in a buoyant housing market\u2014as we are at the moment, when there are people on waiting lists to get into retirement villages\u2014but if the market turns down it will be a different issue again, and people will once again be waiting to sell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAs well, the changes to clause 27 mean that someone who moves into a village can exit within 15 days. I can remember that the husband of a patient I had looked after, who had died suddenly, was pretty sad and depressed, and he went into a village when he was still quite a young man and did not need to make that sort of lifestyle choice at that point. As he got better he wanted to be able to exit. Now there is the ability to have what is called a cooling-off period in order for people to confirm their decision to live as part of a village. Some people have called retirement villages lifestyle villages, and that may be quite a good change of name, because people are buying into a lifestyle. But it does not suit everybody, and if someone wants to exit during that 15-day cooling-off period, then clause 27 states that he or she can do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe words of clause 29A(1) have been changed to include the phrase \u201Cin any substantial respect,\u201D with regard to grounds for voidance of an occupation right agreement. If someone signs up to an agreement, generally that is totally legally binding. In this bill there is now a cooling-off period, and, otherwise, to void the agreement there has to be contravention \u201Cin any substantial respect\u201D. That change of wording means it is a little bit harder just to exit. If people decide in that cooling-off period that they do not want to live in a village, even though they have signed all the forms to purchase into it, then they get a refund of their capital sums only. The cost of any goods and services used is not refunded. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022917b6f91e0b6440d8a60f88fd2b02e5a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022917b6f91e0b6440d8a60f88fd2b02e5a\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The dumping of 14 pages of a Supplementary Order Paper with 10-odd pages of new technical clauses is quite a blight on the pride that Parliament might otherwise have wanted to feel in responding to all those submissions from Grey Power. This process involved the Justice and Electoral Committee doing what some members felt was an excessive amount of investigation, with an excessive amount of care about the actual words, and what the effect of the intentions, as translated, might be. Many of the words being changed or replaced in this Supplementary Order Paper were words that the committee agonised over\u2014I think that probably is the right word. Now explanation is completely absent for many of the ones that look technical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI take a simple example. A provision had been substantially modified to try to exclude parts of rest homes from what would otherwise be retirement villages or hospital care areas. It has now been replaced by new words that might or might not achieve what people submitting to the select committee wanted. It might or might not achieve a sensible purpose, but this House will vote on it without any opportunity of knowing. I would ask the Minister to explain that, and many others of these, but it might be unfair. We cannot really engage in a dialogue, because we will not get the time to do it. There are things that simply puzzle me, and I do not believe that is the right way to approach a document that was given such close select committee scrutiny\u2014whether welcome or unwelcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E Although I am told this is a wide-ranging and general debate on the whole bill, I am concerned that during this time we will slide past what look like simple wording changes. Those changes were presumably proposed by officials who, I believe, always had the earnest desire to make the bill work for people in retirement villages, but\u2014to be quite frank\u2014did not seem to me to have the technical knowledge that enabled them to know whether their preferred wording was properly translated into legal effect. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI am concerned that the changes, which look so technical, will be more like own goals of the kind that we identified in the bill. For example, the bill started out simply stating that some rights of secured creditors would expire upon registration. The select committee received submissions on that from the Law Society and some secured creditors. They made us realise\u2014those of us who did not already see it\u2014that simply doing that to a secured creditor was, firstly, a major breach of a rule-of-law principle and bad in principle, and, secondly, would make lending for retirement village purposes unattractive. Once the Government shows that it is quite willing to override contractual rights and simply replace existing rights with what it feels it would like to see were it standing in the shoes of the parties, the industry knows that it can happen again. It is notice to the industry that if it lends to a retirement village and the retirement village gets into difficulties, then the Government might well respond to the clamour to rewrite the deal in a way that a lender would certainly find expensive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe consequences are obvious. I believe that these provisions will put retirement village lending in the same category as farm lending. From having been on the board of a very profitable farm finance company, I know that there is a persistent premium on lending to farmers that can be explained only by the fact that farmers gang up when there is a mortgagee sale, and therefore make it hard to exercise the lender\u2019s security. That persistent premium costs New Zealand farmers many millions a year. We used to think that somewhere around half a percent per year could not be justified for any reason of practical security, that farms were good security in terms of the underlying asset value, that their cash flows were usually there, and that they could usually work their way out, but it was persistently more profitable to lend to farmers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ec6c75a33c59413986812022a5291ab5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ec6c75a33c59413986812022a5291ab5\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E In an earlier speech, I spoke of my disquiet at the idea of retirement villages. I spoke of the undesirability of monocultures of any kind, whether human, animal, or plant. They tend to be prone to predators and disease. I am not sure that retirement villages are prone to disease, but the fact that we have a bill like this in front of us certainly indicates that they are prone to predators. That people choose to live with a whole lot of other people of a similar age is a little strange as well, but clearly they do. Society has changed, and too many of us have too little time for too many of our old folk. This bill clearly recognises that older folk choose to live with other older folk in villages, and attempts to put in place a measure of protection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe provisions I will briefly speak about are those that simply spell out the conditions of occupancy, so that older folk know what the conditions are regarding the security of their tenure and the security of their investment. The elderly are likely to live much longer these days. Statistics tell us that they live longer and die more quickly. They could be in retirement for 20, 30, or more years, and it is as likely that they will want to change homes as the rest of us. When they do, it is important that their investment is protected, and that they can make those changes easily, quickly, and safely. The Greens will be supporting the Retirement Villages Bill, and I have been pleased to speak briefly on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00226ccaf83bf9ea4748ae1d5a3b4aba40c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226ccaf83bf9ea4748ae1d5a3b4aba40c4\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to a survey done by John Bell, who is a senior lecturer in marketing at Otago University. It was a survey of the satisfaction of residents with retirement villages. In that survey only 1 percent of retirement village residents were dissatisfied with their retirement village. None were extremely dissatisfied, while 34 to 55 percent, respectively, were satisfied or very satisfied with it, and a further 10 percent had no view on the issue. I think that shows us that those people\u2014following on from the last speaker, who made a few disparaging comments about living in monocultures\u2014who buy into retirement villages are pretty happy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIt is a bit of a shame that the ability of retirement villages to offer integrated care has been reduced. As I said before, retirement villages in the South Island tend to have rest homes, dementia units, and continuing care units. I remember that years and years ago my grandmother went into a unit in a retirement village. When she fell and fractured her hip, she went into the rest home, and then, when she had a series of strokes at the age of 95, she went into the continuing care unit. The integrated care model allowed her to stay in a place she was familiar with, and with staff she was familiar with, and to stay within the whole concept of that home. That type of care has been reducing because, under this Government, rest homes and continuing care units have had their prices held for nearly 5 years. It has become much less viable to deliver those services, so a great number of retirement villages are no longer following an integrated care model. That is a shame, especially when we continually hear Ruth Dyson talk about integrated care. That system was being delivered, and had been delivered for a long time, in New Zealand. It is a shame to see it reducing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI believe that this bill will make it more difficult to develop and buy into retirement villages. The cost\u2014and we have heard from the ACT party about the financial implications\u2014means that there is likely to be some limitation now on the sale, development, and expansion of retirement villages. I guess that is a price to pay for ensuring that residents have protection and understand what they are buying into, and for that protection to come under one piece of legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EGrey Power wanted the Retirement Commissioner to appoint the statutory supervisors who will act under the legislation, but I was pleased that was not taken up, because it is the owners and operators who will have to pay for those services. It is appropriate that statutory supervisors work in the type of situation where they are responsible for residents and for handling disputes, but also have an obligation as well to the operator of the village to maintain the village and ensure it can continue as a whole. I think that for most people who came to the Justice and Electoral Committee, it is a balancing act between the concerns of residents that we heard about from Grey Power, and those that we heard about from people in the retirement villages industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Minister mentioned the disclosure document, which will make it very clear what someone is buying into. I do not think that issue has had any effect. People are happy with their villages, and they know what they are buying into. As I said before, certainly in the North Island there are waiting lists to buy units at many of the villages at this time. People have not been concerned about having knowledge about what they are buying into, and about the financial implications if they leave early\u2014within the first 4 years, when there are quite high depreciation costs. What often happens is that elderly people have a lot of equity in their homes. They may not have a lot of cash, but they have a lot of equity in their homes. If they can sell a large home and buy into a village, it frees up capital for them to buy a new car, travel, or go overseas. At times, when they buy into a village the price they would pay for a 2-bedroom unit would be less than they would pay for a similar stand-alone unit down the road. That frees up some capital for them, so the quid pro quo is being able to free up that capital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022dacedc7f2c074f9aa5c84a82ba10f57f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dacedc7f2c074f9aa5c84a82ba10f57f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E When I began discussing this matter earlier today, I indicated that it was a great shame that this legislation has been thrust upon us in this way, with 13 pages of amendments in Supplementary Order Paper 157 that we have not had an opportunity to consider fully. As we go through the Supplementary Order Paper more things come to our attention than ever before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe can look, for example, at the disputes procedure under this legislation. This is one of those areas about which there was great contention before the Justice and Electoral Committee. People wanted to make sure there was a good disputes procedure. We spent a tremendous amount of time on trying to be fair to everyone with regard to the disputes procedure, and now we have interference by the department and, we are told, by United Future in the decisions made by the select committee. I think we all know that United Future has had a good deal to say about the bill already, at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI look at clause 48(1) and new subclause (1A). Clause 48 sets out that a hearing must be held, and subclause (1) states: \u201CIn the course of conducting a dispute resolution, the disputes panel must hold a hearing\u201D. Subclause (1A), which we inserted at the select committee, states: \u201CThe parties to the dispute are entitled to be present and heard at the hearing.\u201D Now the Minister has put in an amendment to insert new subclause (1AA) in clause 41. It states: \u201CNothing in subsection (1) enables a resident to give a dispute notice concerning any health services or disability services, or any facilities to which the Code of Health and Disability Services Consumers\u2019 Rights under the Health and Disability Commissioner Act 1994 applies.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EReally, I think the Minister is starting to curtail the rights of the individual resident. There may be areas in which the resident does want to have a dispute with the people about matters in the Code of Health and Disability Services Consumers Rights, and why should that not stay in the legislation? Why must a measure be inserted in the legislation by the Minister, without any proper discussion with the select committee? If there were areas in that code that did not come within the contemplation of the legislation, then clearly the referee or the party considering the dispute would not hear it. Here we have matters that should have been put to the select committee but were not, and now they are being dealt with by way of a clause inserted by the Minister. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI also look at clause 48A(2). In that particular clause, inserted by the select committee, there is a provision that if a panel refuses to hear or continue to hear a dispute, that is without prejudice to the right of any party subsequently to begin proceedings in respect of the subject of the dispute in a court of law. That clause has been deleted. That is extraordinary. Is the Minister saying that, with the subsequent clauses that are there, there is no longer any without-prejudice right to commence proceedings in a court of law? Maybe that is stating the obvious and did not have to be in the bill in the first place, which should have been made clear to the select committee. But why delete subclause (2), and put in its place a provision that states: \u201CIf the panel refuses to hear, or continue to hear, a dispute under subsection (1)(b), the panel must refer the dispute to the nearest District Court for hearing.\u201D? What if the parties do not want to go to the District Court for a hearing? Here they are, having the District Court imposed on them. That will mean more costs for the resident, and more costs for the operator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis measure is another classic example of more compliance costs being imposed on people by this Labour Government and, we are told, by United Future and Murray Smith, who says he has had a big hand in the Supplementary Order Paper. We know that United Future and the Labour Party support more compliance costs. Why require people to go to the District Court, as is proposed here? The amendment states the panel must refer the dispute to the nearest District Court for hearing. That is appalling. I am sure that the reason the select committee did not take that view is that it would be totally wrong. We put in more discretionary provisions when we did the legislation, rather than this compulsory provision, which is so much a feature of the way that Labour, a socialist party, looks at things. Labour believes in compulsion, in making people do things rather than have discretion, whereas the New Zealand First Party\u2014and I am glad to be disassociated from the National Party and the ACT party, as Lynda Scott disassociated us from National\u2014believes in discretion being given to people. The National Party members may not support discretion. They may support the compulsory view, and that is their affair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f58fbecef2fb430a9e6767573e866bba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f58fbecef2fb430a9e6767573e866bba\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I will answer some of Mr Jones\u2019 comments by telling him that when I looked through Supplementary Order Paper 157 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel I had a similar concern to his, which I raised with the officials. But they pointed out to me, quite rightly, that clause 48A(2) refers only to refusals to hear a dispute under subclause 1(b)\u2014that is, the referee believes \u201Cthat the dispute should be heard by a court of law;\u201D. That is the only circumstance when the referee has to refer a dispute to a District Court, and it seems to me to be quite appropriate that if the parties go to a disputes tribunal and the referee believes the dispute should be heard by a court of law, he or she then refers it to a court of law. Obviously, the parties can withdraw at any time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EBut I come back to my point in new clause 41B on Supplementary Order Paper 129 in my name. I know that when I first proposed that at the Justice and Electoral Committee, albeit, admittedly, at the eleventh hour, the advisers had some reservations about that, and I would like to express my appreciation to the advisers and to the Minister, as well, for the very good working relationship we have had with regard to this bill. I have enjoyed working with them, and I have enjoyed working with the Hon Lianne Dalziel. That has continued a very good relationship that we have had over the past year or so. I thank the advisers for their willingness to sit down and go through points with me, humour me with regard to some of the questions I had, consider some of the things I said, and review their position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn that light I also mention to the Committee that I have tabled another amendment to clause 21(4)(b). In my view, it does fulfil the intention of the select committee, which was not clear in the bill as reported back, and that is that the right of security holders to continue to have their priority right, and not to consent to the registration of the retirement village and the subrogation of their rights below the rights of residents, is limited to the security right that they had on 31 December 2002. The amendments have made it clearer that the security interests that continue to be secured relate to the sum that was secured on 31 December 2002, and not to any increase in that sum. The amendment that I have put forward would also limit it to the rights that the security holder had as at 31 December 2002, to avoid a situation where the security holder could increase those rights, to the detriment of residents, after this legislation comes into force. I thank the advisers for being prepared to consider that and be favourably disposed towards it. So I will be moving that amendment, as well as the amendment in new clause 41B. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI had concentrated before on the statutory supervisor\u2019s role, and another provision that statutory supervisors I spoke to were concerned about was in clause 77. They thought that provision would put too much of an onus on retirement villages to have to prepare two sets of accounts, when in situations where there may be only one retirement village one set of accounts is quite adequate. Again, I am pleased to see that the Minister has been prepared to adopt an amendment that would give more flexibility, so that two sets of accounts are required only if the statutory supervisor, or, failing the statutory supervisor, the person who is now named as the registrar of retirement villages, deems that two sets of accounts need to be prepared. I think that that flexibility is a mark of this bill, and is further enhanced by Supplementary Order Paper 157 so that there are greater discretions to try to minimise the costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EOne area that I do have some continuing concerns with is in schedule 2. It concerns the change that has been made to the select committee\u2019s recommendation, so as to provide that an operator does not have to notify residents, or consult residents, if the operator is putting the village on the market. It seems to me that that is potentially problematic, because very often the first that residents will know that something is afoot is when they are told by somebody else that the village is on the market because it has been advertised. I think it would be a backward step for any operator not to consult residents before doing that, because it is likely to be quite destabilising for residents to suddenly find that their village is on the market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022b55f59587f9948c4b75842986889c4b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b55f59587f9948c4b75842986889c4b1\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have an amendment I should speak to, lest I not get the opportunity later, even though it comes late in the bill and there are other matters I would rather address. The amendment I have put forward is one that is mentioned by the Justice and Electoral Committee in its report. It was one that the committee had drafted as a proposal. The words I have put forward are those that the parliamentary counsel had proposed, at least in terms of the substantive paragraphs that would require the Minister to take into account two considerations when looking at a code. The considerations are essentially the barriers to entry that can be created by a code that suits the big end of town\u2014the sorts of operators who will end up having the time and resources to put into the negotiations with the Minister that this bill envisages. This bill codifies industry capture. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EEarlier, the National Party quite properly pointed out there are waiting lists for entry to these villages at the moment. We know that the increasing prices represent a desire to be in them. The best way of dealing with waiting lists in any kind of business is to increase supply and lower costs. The committee recognised that the code would be the focus of the 60 percent of the industry that is covered by the professionals, the big companies, or those who can easily afford to cover compliance costs. The smaller entrants, the new entrants, the charities, and the iwi groups, those who are not sophisticated and experienced in this area, will be most adversely affected if the code becomes cumbersome or overly prescriptive, or if it stipulates an excessive manning or \u201Cwomanning\u201D level at night, excessive nursing levels, security fences, and many other things\u2014all the other things that add to costs, and drive out new entrants. Therefore, the committee at that stage considered that the bill should record that the Minister ought to weigh against the representations from the big end of town the concerns that would exclude the builder who decides to run a spec and have a crack at it. It is that type of builder who keeps pricing pressure on the big operators. It is the prospect of those kinds of new entrants that will ultimately control whether there are excess profits at the other end of town. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EUnfortunately, the officials recommended strongly against that. The reasoning, I thought, was absolutely unbelievable. I did not expect to see advice as bluntly in the pocket of the industry as the advice that the committee was given. The officials urged against including a requirement that the Minister think about barriers to entry\u2014and I will read the words: \u201CTo effectively constrain the Minister to approve only a code of practice that does not act as a barrier to persons of modest means gaining access to accommodation in retirement villages is not appropriate. This is because, in spite of the broad pricing variations in the retirement village market, people of modest means are already excluded. It is not the purpose of the retirement villages legislation to widen the range of retirement living options for people of modest means.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e7a973b70c74af88f2bc2d6f3b3cdb3\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: This is the Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022993644388fc74cd7a63dc31c2973f0f5\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: This is the Labour Government. We have just heard, in a very fine speech from the National Party, that only 1 percent of people polled in retirement villages do not like them and want to complain. The Government says openly that it is not passing this bill in order to expand the range of retirement options for people of modest means. The officials\u2019 conclusion was that it should not be a requirement for the Minister to take into account the effect of code requirements on a group of people for whom retirement village living is not currently, or in the foreseeable future, an affordable option. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe whole purpose of considering a code against the prospect of industry capture was because there is a continuum. At the bottom end there may be retirement villages that offer the very bare minimum, but that bare minimum may be far better than where prospective residents are now living. For example, it is highly unlikely that at present they will have any security or any on-call care. The risk of gold-plating the code was something the committee was alive to. The committee tried to respond to it, and, to our absolute astonishment, the Minister\u2019s officials told us that it was not something we should take into account, and it certainly was not something the Minister was planning to take into account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI ask this Committee and I ask the Minister, who may well have been very busy and not aware of what was being said on her behalf, to take that issue into account.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6dca3eec527449c98936b37d3de077d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6dca3eec527449c98936b37d3de077d\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to make a contribution to the bill, for a couple of reasons. One is that I am a trustee of the Kerikeri Village Trust, and I have taken a bit of an interest in this legislation. I want to make one or two comments. First, I would like to compliment the Justice and Electoral Committee on the work it has done on this bill. I have observed the bill going through, and note that the select committee has addressed a number of issues that were initially of concern. I congratulate the Minister, the select committee, and, indeed, Parliament, on the work they have done in addressing some of those concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAn issue that has been addressed already is that this bill\u2014and there is no way to avoid it\u2014will impose compliance costs that will obviously impact on the viability of retirement villages, and the like. That is unfortunate, and I am sure better minds than mine have endeavoured to find a way to achieve what the bill is trying to achieve without adding costs. Unfortunately, I cannot see a way around that. Imposing a regime that will put on some costs is one of those conundrums we get into in trying to lift standards, or in trying to make sure that there are consistent standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe issue I want to talk about in particular is the matter that appears on pages 16 and 17 of the commentary on the bill, with regard to the sale and disposal of units. It is not specifically in the bill itself, but I understand it will be part of a code that will be drafted up. One of the issues talked about is the steps that can be taken if a person wants to sell his or her unit for whatever reason. There is a 3-month step, a 6-month step, and a 9-month step, but I understand that after the 9-month step the disputes panel, depending on how the code is drafted, might well have the right to insist that the retirement village purchases back the property. Someone who is more familiar with the bill than I am may correct me if that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI can understand why we might put that in the bill, but there is a dilemma in it. For example, the Kerikeri Village Trust is a community trust, not a profit-making organisation\u2014it puts all its resources back into the trust. It has a bare minimum of charges, just so it can survive and be viable. If it is likely that a retirement village has to buy back the property, we might well end up putting at risk community enterprises such as the Kerikeri Village Trust. Perhaps the Minister can indicate whether that is so, because I can sit down if it is not. I do not want to carry on debating the matter, but I just urge caution: if the disputes panel has the authority to force an organisation such as the Kerikeri Village Trust to buy property when it might not be able to financially, then that will cause the trust some difficulty in operating, because it does not have that flexibility in terms of the way it has structured its finances. Our whole purpose is to provide a service for the community. We do it for the community, we are a non-profit-making organisation, and the system we have works. We do not have a slush fund with which to buy a whole lot of property.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d6b662bf9964ab9b0fc1fb029a9c671\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Over lunch I had the opportunity to discuss with the Minister the matter I was debating. She told me that the code that will be put in place with regard to the sale of property will not be compulsory, in the sense that retirement villages will not be forced to sell, although\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305d0e6fe0c342988f69c0c1fedf2244\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The disputes panel will have the power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cee4a6f5bf9640c686d7e611dbeb279f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the disputes panel will have the power, under certain circumstances, to require retirement villages to purchase, but\u2014[Interruption] The Minister explained to me there are things like if they had not been intending to sell, etc., and obviously we will need to go into those details. But there was also an understanding of the pressures that could be put on a place like the Kerikeri Village Trust. One makes the assumption that the code will be flexible enough not to put at risk the likes of the Kerikeri Village Trust. But in a case where the owner of a retirement village is not playing his or her part of the game, then it might well be that we see the compulsion invoked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00229b1602dc074541f1866b58fd2f6b3bbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b1602dc074541f1866b58fd2f6b3bbb\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to refer again to the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014the one we have only just had the opportunity in the last few days to consider\u2014and, in particular, to the \u201CRegistrar of Retirement Villages\u201D provision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EFirst, if I could just touch on the matter that Mr Carter, the senior National Party whip, mentioned. Obviously, if the code of practice created provisions that were far too onerous, lawyers would find it difficult to advise clients to enter into retirement village contracts. I would expect that no disputes panel would suggest that a retirement village be forced to buy a unit and have to raise money to buy it. I would expect that the code of practice would have to be drawn up extremely carefully to make sure that the remaining residents of a retirement village were not made to pick up a burden that would make their situation intolerable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ELooking at the \u201CRegistrar of Retirement Villages\u201D provision in the proposed amendments to the bill, once again I have to ask why that provision was not made known to the select committee. Why were the Justice and Electoral Committee not given the opportunity to discuss these matters? It is a clear example of this minority Labour Government, aided and abetted by United Future, not being willing to consult. After all, we hear so much about this minority Labour Government wanting to consult with people, and yet that provision was not put before the select committee. The way it has been drafted, the ministerial officials, and suchlike, could quite easily have put it forward. Instead, we have been given more bureaucracy in the shape of yet another Government official\u2014a Registrar of Retirement Villages. Who will this person be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb161fbc6715447ea41580a63dd3a87b\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s the Registrar of Companies\u2014as it reads at the moment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224610a8f79f5445ac9b07f2cdb9e2fd8f\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CDeemed to have been appointed \u2026 in accordance with this section\u201D, but have members read the explanatory note? OK, the position will initially be held by the Registrar of Companies, but who will hold the job after that? If the Minister would only read her explanatory note to the fullest, rather than briefly, she would understand my concern. That person will initially hold the position, so someone else will hold it afterwards. Is this another job for the girls? Even the Minister herself does not know what she has done. Is this job for the likes of, say, Susan Bathgate, created in respect of retirement villages? [Interruption] The senior Government whip clearly does not know what is in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Minister herself has not read the explanatory note; she has only read a few words, but not the rest of it. The New Zealand First Opposition has had this amendment for only a short while, but knows more about what is in it than the Minister does, and she is the one who is accepting responsibility for it. New Zealand First asks whether this is another Susan Bathgate amendment, with the likes of her being appointed to this position? That is clearly what can happen, so far as the information in the bill is concerned. We have every right as an Opposition to raise these issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EClearly, there will be more compliance costs. Who will pay for this registrar? It is another job for the boys and girls. Someone will have to pay for it, and it will be the elderly people going into the retirement villages. Clearly, the Minister has not thought of that. The Government does not set up a new position unless more money has to be put forward to pay for it. The regulations will set up requirements: more costs for the elderly, more costs for the children to worry about, as the elderly people are in a retirement village. Seemingly unbeknown to the Minister, that seems to be the situation here\u2014more bureaucracy, and overall, more compliance costs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis minority Labour Government loves imposing more compliance costs on people. Here we have another official, and clearly that will mean more charges, more letterheads, more application fees for the registrar, more regulations put out on behalf of the registrar and the person to whom he will delegate, more charges for filing annual returns, more charges for filing particulars of rest homes and retirement villages and who is living there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Minister has not grasped what is in the bill. Clearly, she could not even begin to grasp the consequences of what is in the bill. It is a great shame that the Justice and Electoral Committee was not given the opportunity to discuss this matter in the many months that this bill was before that committee. Then the Minister would have been better informed, and the committee would have had the opportunity to point out to the Minister the error of her ways.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u002218fd6c2758db4093b51193e45792db3f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218fd6c2758db4093b51193e45792db3f\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise again to correct my colleague Dail Jones. I note his comment that he believes that he and his party know more about this bill than the Associate Minister of Justice does. I have worked closely with the Minister, I have also worked with Mr Jones on the Justice and Electoral Committee, and I find that the Minister is totally competent and in charge of what is happening, and knows exactly what she is doing. I commend and support her for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn terms of the change that he alluded to, from the Registrar of Companies to the Registrar of Retirement Villages, to me it makes a great deal of sense. When I talked to people from one statutory supervisor firm, and told them that was one of the changes being made on the Supplementary Order Paper, they thought it was an excellent idea and were strongly complimentary of it. Some flexibility is provided within the Ministry of Economic Development in terms of how that particular position is filled and who fills it. I think that is a very good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EObviously, at the beginning of the consideration of the bill the select committee had to address whether the registrar would be the Registrar of Securities or the Registrar of Companies. The Registrar of Securities did not want to do it, although there is a lot in the bill that is security related. There was some question whether the Registrar of Companies was the best person; some people felt the Registrar of Companies was not necessarily the best person. So we have a situation where there is some fluidity. The Registrar of Companies was prepared to do it, and we welcomed the fact that the Registrar of Companies volunteered to take over when the Registrar of Securities did not want to do it. But now we have built-in flexibility that enables this matter to be dealt with by another body if that is more appropriate, without the Act having to come back here to be changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIn terms of consultation, well, I have consulted the Minister. I question whether Mr Jones even tried to contact the Minister\u2019s office to ask to be consulted and to discuss the bill. My advice is that he did not. He can hardly complain that he has not been consulted about it if he has not even asked to be consulted about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EWhen I spoke previously I talked about the amendment on Supplementary Order Paper 157 to clause 1(b)(i) in schedule 2. The amendment takes out the provision that the select committee had put in that the operator ought to consult the residents before putting the village on the market. I suggested that it would be quite disruptive of residents if they learnt through a third party that the village was on the market, rather than hearing it directly from the operator. I discussed this with the Minister in our very good consultation. The industry\u2019s concern was that if its members were trying to negotiate a private sale\u2014that is, non-public\u2014the fact that the village was on the market could have a detrimental effect on their bargaining ability. I think that is a worthwhile consideration. My only concern continues to be that if the fact that the village was on the market became public, and the residents did not know about it first, that would be quite disorientating for them. It is important that all retirement village operators are very cognisant of the fact that they need to keep the residents as informed as possible, to avoid a situation where they have lots of complaints and lots of criticism. It is in their own interests to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E When I was talking to a statutory supervisor about the situation, I found there is still concern among at least some statutory supervisors who operate in this area about the exemption requirements. They are particularly concerned that if exemptions are able to be given, and if any retirement villages gain exemptions, then that will put a bit of pressure on the residents not to complain, because the operators can say: \u201CIf you make a complaint, you\u2019re likely to cause us to have to appoint a statutory supervisor. That would mean we\u2019ve got far greater costs, and those costs will be passed on to you.\u201D There is a bit of danger that granting exemptions could backfire on residents and put them under undue pressure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIt was the view of the company I spoke to that there would inevitably be some consolidation of small villages, particularly ones run by church bodies, so that they effectively were combined into one larger entity that was more able to meet the requirements. However, it is my view that, at least at the early stages, an exemption requirement is necessary because there will be a transition period, and even if there is some aggregation to make it economic to comply, then at least there will be time for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00222c8888b728bf43df8f6b0320d5d25213\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222c8888b728bf43df8f6b0320d5d25213\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7d1bffca9d0429682948f9740106d02\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7d1bffca9d0429682948f9740106d02\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Given that this is my last call I will try to address clauses that have not been touched on, clauses that, in fact, probably no one in this Committee has even noticed other than the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EFor example, I take the amendment to clause 37 on Supplementary Order Paper 157, which states: \u201C(1B) A deed of supervision must contain all information and other matters or provisions that are required to be included in it by regulations made under this Act.\u201D Suddenly, in effect, the industry has been nationalised. It is true that the drafter has, throughout the bill, regarded the operators as if they were rapacious landlords, when, in fact, in a number of villages the operators are, in economic terms, the residents themselves collectively. The operator may be a charity, the operator may even be a separate party, but by the way that the villages are set up the operator is the residents collectively, for many purposes. If the operator incurs costs, if the operator has extra trouble, if the operator finds it much harder to deal with a troublesome resident, and if the operator has to spend time reassuring the Minister or the registrar, ultimately that cost will fall back on the residents. So, in effect, they are being potentially inflicted with the costs of the competence or incompetence with which this industry is now to be regulated. By a simple piece of drafting of an amendment to clause 37, after the select committee hearings, the Minister has become able politically to decide the terms of the contract between the supervisor and the village.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat is not a neutral change. The Minister will, of course, now be embroiled, through the regulators, in any disappointment that residents feel. That is the classic means by which lowest-common-denominator regulation starts to become gold plating. Ultimately, it becomes oppressive and damaging to the interests of those in the villages, those in the industry being regulated. The supervisors will now be required to jump hurdles created by the response to the circumstances of the last problem in the industry\u2014not the problems that it would be most rational to deal with. They will not reflect solutions that, over time, have evolved as the best mix in regulation between the pressure to ensure that no one can ever complain, and the pressure to make sure that precautions do not cost more for the people at the bottom end of the market. The mix will now depend on what is needed to cover the Minister\u2019s back, because a power becomes a duty, and a power is certainly a political exposure. If the Minister has not stipulated a deed of supervision with all the things that are a defence against political criticism, then she will get political criticism. It will not be rational. It will not take into account the fact that a little change here or there might shut out the 5 percent of people who otherwise could afford to get into a retirement village.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe effect is that this Government, which pretends to act for the people who cannot look after themselves, is taking the best-equipped 4 percent of our elderly population and gold plating facilities for them. It is giving them a protection that most of them already have. They are in perhaps the most desirable form of retirement living for many, despite the Greens\u2019 view that it is a monoculture. The Government is now saying that it will make them more privileged. It will expend its political time and energy and its regulatory resource on making those people even more privileged. It does not matter to it that a whole host of people will be shut out at the bottom end. The Government will pull up the drawbridges. The personal liabilities it will put on operators will discourage the next group of church trustees who decide to have a crack at it. It will discourage the iwi who thinks it might be a good idea to put three or four units together, until it is told by its lawyers that it has to learn how to comply with an elaborate code and meet the requirements of a deed of supervision that is properly related to villages of hundreds of units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe effect of this is that this industry will become politically directed, not market directed. The explosive growth in it has been precisely because it has not been growing along the lines of some politician\u2019s best idea. Indeed, in this industry the New Zealand pattern has evolved quite differently from patterns overseas. It has elements of life insurance and elements of property investment. The fact that people do not get back the full amount they put in has been a source of grievance, and it is sensible for the Minister to have come up with a scheme where there will be a form of disclosure that should make it a little easier for people to know that the industry is not pure property investment and does have elements of life insurance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAll of that could have been done without the Minister succumbing to the pressure and the temptation to become the dictator of the industry rather than the sunlight agent\u2014the agent ensuring that there was proper disclosure, and treating elderly people as if they could be trusted to make their own decisions. Our elderly now become the only class of competent adult New Zealanders who are not allowed to make the bargains for their homes that everyone else can make. They are the only class who can no longer front up and sort out for themselves what they think is the optimum mix of protection and investment. It will now be prescribed by the Minister, and prescribed according to a code proposed by the big end of the industry\u2014that is, by the major operators, who have a very obvious interest in what they call keeping up standards, which is code for keeping out those who would bring competitive entry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227dbf8c3d78ca466a98a49bcc95608098\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Cowboys!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e160ea6d37840748af51af740aafe9c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister does not have the faintest understanding that competitive entry is the willingness of people to come in at the bottom end of an industry and challenge it with a new idea. This Minister calls those people cowboys. Are the people who decided to build kaum\u0101tua flats cowboys? What about the people from the Dutch community who decided all those years ago to create, out of a combination of the Unit Titles Act, which did not contemplate it, and some other pieces of law, a form of communal living that no bureaucrat could have prescribed? The Minister is now going to prescribe through the deed of supervision exactly how the risks will be allocated, and there is no risk that is carried without a return. If the supervisors are made responsible\u2014as was included in this bill when it started out\u2014for acts over which they have very little control, they will stipulate more control. Instead of the operator being able to sort out what best appeals to people who want to buy units, it will have to sort out what gets past the regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis, of course, is the same Minister who is now holding up the Stock Exchange as she decides, with all her wisdom, what the rules ought to be between the Stock Exchange and companies. That is a relevant other example. This Labour Cabinet has a new power to tell the Stock Exchange what its rules should be. This Minister is now giving herself, through a Supplementary Order Paper that the Justice and Electoral Committee never saw, the power to tell this industry what the pattern of risk will be, and she is refusing to accept a provision from Parliament that would at least direct her to take account\u2014and that is all it was\u2014of the potential cost to the people who will be shut out of these gold-plated villages. The drawbridges have been pulled up, and the security fence has gone in. The staffing requirements will be set at a level that amateurs simply cannot match unless they are inside the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order Paper has many provisions that probably have the same effect. The Minister chose not to highlight that particular clause. The explanatory note did not mention it as far as I can see. It is a major change in the relationship between statutory supervisors, those they are supervising, and the operators. The operators are the promoters who ensure that we cut down the waiting lists for these villages that the National Party mentioned. Those waiting lists will be cut down only by the villages being made more expensive and people being rationed out of them, or\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e30c1a35dee4aaeaa012d4aa22032e7\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Or more access.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e420358b2c546c2bc2b75b099140324\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014having more access or more supply, and it is not available here. I think the National Party spokesperson on the elderly, although not a member of our committee, has hit the key problems with this bill very, very well. I know that National will vote for this legislation because of the good parts of it, and there are good parts in it, but ACT cannot support the bill in this form, simply because it encourages this kind of imperialism by Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Murray Smith to the amendment to clause 21(5) set out on Supplementary Order Paper 157 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003Eto add the words \u201C(being a right provided in that security interest as at 31 December 2002)\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225091efc64b4b479495c7979f4c6d1716\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment to the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment to the amendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000374\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 157 in the name of the Hon Lianne Dalziel, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000375\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000376\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 129 in the name of Murray Smith to insert clause 41B be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000377\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000378\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Stephen Franks to clause 65 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000379\u0022\u003Eto amend clause 65 by inserting the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000380\u0022\u003E(1A)\tThe Minister must take into account in considering any draft code for approval:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000381\u0022\u003E(a)\tthe need to ensure that the requirements of the code are not so onerous as to act as a barrier to persons of modest means gaining access to accommodation in retirement villages; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000382\u0022\u003E(b)\tthe need to ensure that the code is sufficiently flexible to permit the operation of villages with a range of pricing structures and a range of services and facilities offered to residents.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c89eafb403154651a8ad00b41a5e6a23\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000383\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 78 and schedules, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000384\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022108e16f3dc874ef49b02ff8cb99f2808\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00225a6efc1d44de466dabda88bd06554cd6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225a6efc1d44de466dabda88bd06554cd6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Retirement Villages Bill be now read a third time. This is important legislation, and it is long overdue. As members of this House will now be aware, it provides protection for people who choose retirement village living, and builds on the recommendations of the Law Commission. The provisions of this bill will have the effect of addressing a legislative mismatch that has exposed many older people and their families to unnecessary distress. Until this legislation is enacted, there is little in law specifically to protect the rights and various interests of older people living in a retirement village, apart from the securities legislation that covers it now and clearly was not designed for the purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAt its best, retirement village living can provide a wonderful lifestyle and a sense of community with as much personal privacy as people want. But at its worst, a choice to buy into a retirement village can result in a feeling of being trapped\u2014a tragic way to spend one\u2019s retirement years. I accept that most operators run good villages and most residents are very happy with their choices, but there are cowboys in the industry, and this bill is designed to ensure that no more cowboys are able to enter the industry. If the cowboys who are there now are put out of business, then I say that is a jolly good thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EBut we need to put in place provisions that will limit risk, protect interests, and promote good practice. I know that the ACT party believes that everyone can protect his or her own interests and should be left to do so. It is not my experience of reality. I think if Stephen Franks had read letters from widows who felt like prisoners because they could not move out of the place they were stuck in, then maybe he would have been prepared to rethink what I can only describe as the modern-day equivalent of the Flat Earth Society approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIgnorance creates risk. This bill mitigates that risk. It is true that risk will never be completely removed, but what we have done with this bill is ensure that no one can enter into an occupation-right agreement without being provided with information relevant to making an informed decision. An operator must disclose information relating to entry, residency, and exit costs. An intending resident cannot enter into an occupation-right agreement unless he or she has obtained legal advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EGood relationships between residents, or between residents and village operators, cannot be legislated for but can be promoted. This bill provides for operators to operate a complaints facility, and for a formalised dispute resolution process involving independent dispute panels whose members are pre-approved by the Retirement Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E This bill also includes a provision requiring a village operator, unless exceptional circumstances exist, to appoint a statutory supervisor, which ensures that the financial stability of a village is monitored. Another form of external oversight will be provided through the Retirement Commissioner, who will have the role of reporting on and monitoring the effectiveness of the Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EAnother key component of this legislation is that it will compel compliance with an industry-wide code of practice. The matters the code of practice must cover are prescribed, but the specifics of the code will, in the first instance, be generated by the industry and other stakeholders, which I personally believe is a much greater protection than that offered by the amendment proposed by the ACT party, which was voted down in the Committee stage. Stakeholders will be invited to submit draft codes for consideration, and the Retirement Commissioner will publicly invite submissions on them. On the recommendation of the Retirement Commissioner, the responsible Minister will approve a code that has effect as a regulation. The decision as to who the responsible Minister will be has not been made yet. That is my response to New Zealand First members who think I cannot read a bill, when obviously I can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f23fc47cef841a28740cd81a6a1cbdb\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely right about that one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1059cab5b01481f8a9d69e3feddcfbf\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but the responsible Minister will be driven off who the registrar is, which I would have thought would be obvious to anyone. Through the formalised processes set in the bill, the code will be able to be refined and adapted so that it remains a living document throughout its life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThis legislation is eagerly awaited by many people living in retirement villages, and it has been well supported by people within the retirement village industry. To those who say we should simply have picked up the Law Commission\u2019s proposed bill and put it into effect, I say that that would have satisfied no one. It would not have satisfied the retirement village industry or people living in retirement villages. This is much better legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI appreciate the work and effort that have gone into producing the bill. I thank the Justice and Electoral Committee; the village operators, the village residents, the Retirement Villages Association, Grey Power, Age Concern, and other interest groups; individuals, including Leo Steele, a Christchurch lawyer with a passion in this area second to none; and all the members of this House who have contributed to the fine-tuning of this long-overdue bill. The Justice and Electoral Committee\u2019s comprehensive consideration of the bill resulted in recommendations that in my view will improve the effectiveness and workability of the provisions. The bill as amended in the Committee stage now strikes an optimally effective three-way balance between promoting the individual rights and interests of residents, protecting the collective interest of residents, and recognising the needs and interests of the retirement village industry itself. It is often difficult to get a balance, but I believe that we have achieved that here today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn closing, I thank my officials, the people from the Office for Senior Citizens within the Ministry of Social Development who are here in the House this afternoon. I acknowledge they have done a great thing in bringing this legislation together. I know that it is a hard ask for a ministry that is not resourced like the Ministry of Justice is to deal with this kind of legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b2867613d554b99b9563c24928cdcfd\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019d muck it up even worse, don\u2019t worry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1d35856a0df42c1a30da116ae1cb16e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: It is extremely unhelpful that the ACT party has made some very unpleasant comments about officials who have worked exceptionally well and hard to try to get a balance in a very difficult situation where it is hard to get a balance between competing interests. I pay credit to those officials in this House. I believe that it is the height of rudeness to try to undermine the effective working of the public service, but we have come to expect that from the ACT party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EI am proud of this legislation. It has been a long time coming. It will be welcomed by all quarters of those interests that we have been seeking to protect. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u002239a6aaf1f832473caff54cf1d1ef7e0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239a6aaf1f832473caff54cf1d1ef7e0f\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will be supporting this bill. It was one of the first things I got really involved in when I became a new member of Parliament. The Law Commission report was produced in 1996, as I remember, and it identified problems that had the potential to escalate within an industry that had grown over the previous 10 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ERetirement villages, shortly to be renamed lifestyle villages, are certainly an excellent choice for many New Zealanders who want security, a call system, to have the grounds maintained\u2014especially an elderly woman living on her own\u2014to know that they have companionship, and to know that they are in a community where they get support. In days gone by, people used to go into rest homes. They used to drive to the door. Rest homes had to have a large number of car-parks, but not any more, because these days people go to a rest home in an ambulance. There is a lot of work done to keep people in their own home, and retirement villages offer a very good lifestyle option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBut the Law Commission did identify that there was a need to protect residents and to protect the industry to some degree. I came to Parliament in 1999, and one of the first things I did in 2000 was to turn the Law Commission report into a member\u2019s bill. I had quite a lot of debate with the statutory supervisors. I looked at the compliance costs of legislation such as this. There are some small homes around New Zealand. I think of some of the church homes, some of the kaum\u0101tua flats, and some of the places that have developed in, especially, the South Island, where there might be a rest home, a dementia unit, or a hospital, with six, seven, or eight flats or houses around it that are sold. That is quite different from the very large complexes of retirement villages where there are hundreds of houses. I felt that those with up to 6, maybe 12, flats or houses should be exempt. The major compliance costs that come with this legislation will pose a huge burden on places like that. As Mr Franks was saying before, that will really limit access, which will be to the detriment of some of those smaller lifestyle options.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI believe that having the member\u2019s bill in the ballot did push the Government to speed up the development of its own legislation. The select committee did work to improve the legislation. I think the second select committee after the last election did a very good job, as did the officials, to ensure that we had workable legislation that balanced those risks between the needs of the residents, the collective needs of a village, and the ability for new players to come into the market. We see that there have been some substantial changes to the bill for the good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Retirement Villages Association has always had a code of rights. The association developed basically to ensure that its members had a very high standard. It did a market research survey of retirement village residents\u2019 satisfaction and found that only 1 percent of village residents were dissatisfied with the village. But Grey Power hears from that 1 percent, and I heard from that 1 percent when I was a geriatrician and working in the aged-care sector. There were a few examples of people who did get trapped in villages and did not enjoy being there. There is now a cooling-off period. People who move into a retirement village have a certain time in which they can change their mind about it. Even though they might have signed up to a legal contract, they may exit without harsh provisions being applied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThere is also a disclosure document to protect residents\u2019 interests. It makes it very clear what a person is buying\u2014that one is buying a licence to occupy, not buying a piece of land and a unit. A person is buying a licence to occupy a house in a village, and that is a lifestyle choice. When people know what they are buying into, generally they are a lot happier. They know the financial implications if they leave, and if they should, by misfortune, die, their families know what they bought into and the financial implications of that. There is that need to protect residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThere is also a need to protect the collective interests of residents, because most of the disputes in retirement villages are between residents. Noise, pets, cars, and all sorts of things come up as problems when people live next door to each other. There is a disputes resolution process in the bill. It was felt that it would be very expensive if the statutory supervisors were involved in that process, so there are two levels of that process: a complaints facility, which one hopes will be able to deal with the local little problems of people living next to each other; and the more major disputes resolution process, which the Retirement Commissioner has input into by way of appointing the disputes panel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ENational has been concerned about some of things that are included in the bill, such as the broad discretionary powers of the disputes panel around delays in the sale or disposal of units. That was one of the things that Grey Power brought up. There is concern that when somebody wishes to exit, or has exited, a retirement village, or someone has died and that person\u2019s family wishes to be able to access the estate, the unit can take time to sell. It is not such an issue at the moment because we have waiting lists for a lot of the villages and there is a very hot property market, but in a situation where that is not the case\u2014and we have seen that many times in New Zealand\u2014some of the units can sit around for 2 or 3 years and take a long time to sell.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIt would be of concern if the disputes panel could force buy-back. It would jeopardise the village as a whole, and that must be taken into account. There is the individual\u2019s need, there is the need of the village as a whole, and there is the need of the people\u2014the developers of retirement villages\u2014who have invested their money, time, and effort in developing this industry and supplying people with this lifestyle choice. It is a matter of getting that balance right. National members support the changes that have been made to the bill, because we feel that a lot of those changes make that balance much clearer and better defined.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBut the National Party is still concerned about compliance costs and the fact that there are no exemptions for any of the smaller homes and retirement villages. We will also probably see a lack of new investment. It will be harder to enter the market, and to exit the market, as well, under this legislation. The code of residents\u2019 rights has also caused us some concern, because it has not been specified and identified, but the Retirement Commissioner has an obligation to keep an eye on the implementation of this bill and to monitor that code of practice. All in all, we support the bill. We hope it will improve the functioning of all retirement villages in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022262fb21bdef24afe81f8cbee84f0df21\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022262fb21bdef24afe81f8cbee84f0df21\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a short call in support of the third reading of the Retirement Villages Bill. In doing so I want to welcome this legislation, which is in the final stage of its passage through the House. It is good legislation that covers a new type of accommodation in which a number of New Zealanders are choosing to live. About 26,000 people already live in retirement villages and there is strong growth every year. My constituency of Otaki has the highest number of people over 65 of any constituency, so there are lots of retirement villages, and I know what an enjoyable way of life that can be for people. I assume I myself will end up there one day; some other members may precede me. I notice Mr Dail Jones speaking; I understand that he is a member of the residents\u2019 committee of a retirement village in Auckland. The Minister, Lianne Dalziel, has done a great job on this bill, ably assisted by the officials, who were very helpful to the Justice and Electoral Committee as well, which was chaired by Tim Barnett. I think we reported back a good piece of legislation, which I very much support, and I look forward to people in my electorate enjoying the fruits and benefits of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022c294247579e049f1ad2dd87951700873\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c294247579e049f1ad2dd87951700873\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports the Retirement Villages Bill, and has done all the way through. As an Opposition party, we have highlighted some of the problems associated with the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the greatest problems arises at this very moment, at 2.45 p.m. on what is actually 22 October, when we should be having question time and Ministers should be being put under pressure. Instead, this Government has decided to take urgency, has refused to let us have question time, and has refused to allow, for example, my colleague the Rt Hon Winston Peters to put this Minister, Lianne Dalziel, under even greater pressure, as he invariably does. It is not surprising that the Government prefers to have debate on the Retirement Villages Bill at 2.45 p.m., rather than question time. That is the sort of problem we have in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022715403966791473b8ea6ea5ae4706693\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: We would love to have question time. It\u2019s those evil people in ACT.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9439bddb60a4d15a97181ff378ed9c9\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: The senior Government whip can only berate me as I try to make the constitutional point that now should be question time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI come to the bill. I draw to the attention of the National Party spokesperson that she seems to be slightly confused about clause 27, \u201CCooling-off period and cancellation for delay\u201D. She has given the impression that there is a very lengthy period for cancellation, when under clause 27(1) \u201CAn occupation right agreement must contain a provision allowing a resident \u2026 to cancel \u2026 by notice given not later than 15 working days after the agreement is signed\u201D, rather than the many, many months and years that she was talking about. She is confused about the difference between the ultimate cancellation in clause 29A that I referred to earlier, and the right to cancel the contract in the first 15 working days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI had an email from a gentleman about this particular issue. I made the point that no lawyer would allow a client who was selling property to let a buyer into it until the buyer had approved the contract and, in this case, until the 15 days had expired and the money had been made available. One will not be able to go into a retirement village, then, at some distant time in the future, cancel the contract just like that. It will not work like that, in so far as the Minister hopes and in so far as this legislation is concerned. If an elderly widow sells her unit in a retirement village to another couple who are coming in, that couple have 15 working days in which to cancel, as set out in the legislation. She will make sure that that time has gone by, that the contract is settled, and that she has got the money, before letting the buyers move in. Any lawyer who allowed his or her client to let someone in without having got the money and an unconditional contract would, very soon, be sued for negligence. So there is some confusion about clause 27(1) and a purchaser of an existing unit taking possession from the vendor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs for the abuse by the Minister of those in the industry\u2014she referred to developers as cowboys\u2014I say New Zealand would not have got anywhere if people had not come out here and run dairy farms, taken the risks involved, and got involved in speculation with property building, putting in railways, and the like. For the Minister to abuse people who have had the courage to spend the many millions of dollars involved in creating a retirement village by referring to them as cowboys is totally unnecessary. She should be ashamed of herself. It is clearly a hangover from her former life as a trade union official. That Minister cannot help but abuse people out there who are in business, trying to make a dollar and putting their money on the line, by keeping on referring to them as cowboys. It is interesting that she could not name even one. If the Minister thought there were cowboys in this industry, she should have named at least one. I challenge the next Labour speaker to give me the name of one cowboy in this industry. This Labour Minister in this minority Government hates business. This Government cannot stand business, and it keeps accusing and vilifying the people who go out there and run risks as cowboys. It is totally unnecessary. It is one of the reasons why business, and people generally, will have nothing more to do with this minority Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat is good about the bill? I speak as a lawyer who has looked at many of these agreements and advised many people on them. Essentially, the ultimate thing that is good about the bill is that there is a firm set of rules that everyone\u2014the buyer, the operator, and the seller\u2014has to follow. If all the rules have been complied with, no one can come back and say: \u201CWhy didn\u2019t you tell me such-and-such?\u201D. Nowadays, an agreement for someone to move into a retirement village will include all the things that are referred to in this legislation, in one way or another. It will go on for about 40 pages. All that most members of the public want to know, when they walk into a lawyer\u2019s office carrying a bundle of 40 pages, is where to sign. They do not want the lawyer to take an hour and a half to explain the documentation to them, at a cost of $300 to $400 an hour. All they want to know is where to sign, and that is the problem lawyers have today. One cannot blame people for saying: \u201CWe don\u2019t want to spend $600 or $700 on you; we don\u2019t want to pay for your building. We just want to get into our nice retirement village unit.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill imposes a mandatory provision for all concerned. The procedure must be met. Whoever gives advice to the buyer must go through a certain procedure, and must certify it, as required by this legislation. There is protection for everyone. As someone who has been involved in the industry, I see that as the most important aspect of this legislation. There should be certainty in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI immediately refer to the clause I raised earlier, clause 29A, \u201COccupation right agreement voidable\u201D. A bit of conflict is created here. It provides that an occupation right agreement entered into in contravention of certain sections only can be voidable. Care has to be taken in giving advice on this particular legislation in so far as that matter is concerned. I commend the officials, as I did in my speech in the Committee stage, and the Minister. They have tried to improve clause 29A. I was not happy with that clause. The amendment makes it much more satisfactory, but I still think it will make a lot of money for lawyers as the matter goes to court and efforts are made to define, for example, the meaning of: \u201CFor the purposes of this section, a contravention of a particular provision is a contravention of that provision in a substantial respect if\u2014\u201D paragraphs (a), (b), or (c) take place. Unfortunately, there can be a great deal of nit-picking in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI have expressed my concern and disappointment at being confronted by the 15 pages of Supplementary Order Paper 157, dated Thursday, 16 October 2003. Here we are, still on 21 October according to the calendar, and debating this issue, when most of us would have seen this Supplementary Order Paper probably only on Tuesday of this week. As an Opposition, we now have to try to have a good look at all these various amendments to see whether we should agree with them. Generally, this is a satisfactory bill, and we know there is a good intention behind all these amendments, but I have been critical of them in the Committee stage, as I have already mentioned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am critical of the fact that a Registrar of Retirement Villages is to be appointed at this late juncture, without proper discussion in the select committee. I am concerned that this bill will increase compliance costs in many ways. It will increase bureaucracy, and there is the aspect that here we have, again, the appointment of a registrar for the benefit of a Minister. As the explanatory note states: \u201CThe position of Registrar of Retirement Villages will initially be held by the Registrar of Companies but the location of that office will be able to be changed to a different department of State, if that is considered desirable:\u201D. Who knows what sort of department of State this particular Government may set up? After all, it has abolished the right of appeal to the Privy Council, on a vote of 63. What can it do that is as bad as that? Well, I suppose it can keep on trying for the next couple of years. I can see the Government appointing one of its friends to be the Registrar of Retirement Villages, if it possibly can.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EGenerally, we all hope that people who move into retirement villages benefit from this legislation, and there is an opportunity for that to happen. I wish everyone who is moving into retirement villages the best. I understand that people of Mr Darren Hughes\u2019 age probably will be looking to do that when they are about 95 or 100, because they might live to be 115. I dread the thought, but that is something Mr Hughes can look forward to in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022534a728a77d5451789f87fff701ce074\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022534a728a77d5451789f87fff701ce074\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The benefits of this bill will become evident to a number of people quite promptly. There will be an improvement in disclosure, I am quite sure. There will be some improvement in the standardisation. There will be someone whose business it is to try to ensure that codes are comparable, and I have no doubt at all that there will be a broader consensus developed within the industry on the way in which a standard agreement goes and what the variants on it might be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt may also be the case that there will be individual complainants who will find the new disputes procedure very helpful. There may be operators who wonder why they did not have a formal disputes procedure in place before, because they find it works with common sense. There may well be people who find they will get a more prompt, courteous, and fully cooperative treatment from the operators when they try to sell out, because there is now a more clear sanction where operators are dragging their heels and not advancing the exit of a resident who wants to go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI believe there will be intending residents who will benefit from the certification by having their lawyers realise that describing the patterns of rights and responsibilities in an occupation right agreement is a technical matter. There will be lawyers who have thought they could do it in the past, who in future will say: \u201CThis is a matter for specialists. This is an area that now requires a formal certification. You had better go off and get someone else to do it or go to the specialist in our firm.\u201D, and that may all be sensible and beneficial. It may well be that there are people who are saved from making a mistake by the cooling-off period if they sign up, then talk to their families, realise that it does not suit, and pull out within the stipulated 15-day period. All of these things are helpful, or potentially helpful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is possible that the proposed increases in ongoing disclosure, with the right to be informed, or the consultation requirements, will help. It may be that the registrar of retirement villages\u2014this new quango that is being established without any prior examination or any justification for it in terms of a policy background\u2014will do something to stop some fraudulent or foolish statutory supervisor, disputes panel operator, or other participant in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAll of these things are possible, but I say to members that all these things come at a cost. Most of them could have been achieved without the size of cost that this bill will impose on the elderly of this country. Most of them could have been achieved by standardising descriptions and by providing a code that required operators to clearly identify when they were departing from it, so that the intelligence of elderly people was not insulted. People would still be left with a choice whether they wanted the gold-plated regime that a politician might think they ought to want, and they would still be left with the possibility of patronising a scheme proposed by the local amateur. Ultimately all the regulation in the world does hardly anything in terms of increasing human happiness in these areas, compared with anxious promoters and operators who are trying to grow their businesses in a competitive market. They need to keep thinking of better ways to satisfy the customers. They need to keep thinking of better ways to find a niche of new groups who they can help into this kind of collective living. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EUnlike the Greens, I believe this kind of monoculture\u2014as they described it\u2014is, if it is chosen, exactly what people like living in. If elderly people want to live with others of their kind, of their age, and of their range of interests, it should not be confined, as the officials set out to confine it, to the top 4 percent in assets and income of our elderly. It should be available to just about anyone, because, quite frankly, the retirement village concept should be cheaper to live in, when all costs are taken into account, than the current arrangements for many people who are trying to keep up houses that are too big for them and trying to maintain themselves, often using public services, with visiting nurses and others who have to come and look after them, or at least look over their shoulders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E Retirement village living should not be confined simply to those who have more than modest means. I think that the most disgraceful part of this bill was the Minister\u2019s mockery of the idea that when she approves the code she should have to take account of the desirability of removing barriers to entry and ensuring that the code does not become a set of drawbridges to be pulled up in order to keep out everyone other than the rich. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe disclosure requirements did not need to be mandatory. The code of residents\u2019 rights does not need to be the product of those who are already the insiders in the industry. There are many elderly who, by themselves or with advisers, are fully competent to decide whether they want to go into a village that does not necessarily have all the bells and whistles that someone will decide ought to be in a code of residents\u2019 rights. This bill says that there will clearly be two classes: those who can afford the gold-plated version, and those standing outside the security gate who are in their own homes probably with no security, no comfortable neighbours, and no ensured services simply because they cannot bridge that difference between, say, the $150,000 and $160,000, or between the $100 a fortnight and $130 a fortnight, that might be the effect of this bill. It might well be that we see this bill in hindsight as the bill that tailed off and capped the rate of growth of retirement villages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is sad to be forced into the position of voting against a bill that has so many fine objectives, so much thought, and so many provisions that could have been admirable, but I have to vote against it, essentially to record that this Parliament should not proceed to legislate on matters it knows virtually nothing about. It should not be legislating to hand a rule-writing power to the insiders in the top half of the industry. It should not be empowering or requiring a Minister to respond to political pressure when we have a market here that is far more likely to satisfy the needs of New Zealanders than any amount of top-down prescription. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhen I look at what this might have been and what we have ended up with, I am reminded of why ACT and people like myself come to Parliament. I have seen the way regulations are used for purposes opposite to those intended. I know that the officials and the Minister were contemptuous of the idea that older people were best serviced by having a whole range of people trying to get into this industry\u2014seeing a quick buck and trying to get in\u2014because it is that kind of pressure that makes sure the incumbents cannot exploit super profit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt is that kind of pressure\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f52733edb27e4d4dbad109791a11a49e\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, leave the officials alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a5882b276e754f079e67dffdb04ee4bd\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to the Minister that it is either she or the officials. A 10-page Supplementary Order Paper coming out with a whole lot of provisions that the select committee had already looked at says that either the Minister suddenly changed her mind or the officials had not given the bill proper concern during the really dragged-out consideration we had. The officials took a view that they were not there as the committee\u2019s officials, which is proper. They were the Minister\u2019s officials, and they were unable to explain quite a few of the things they were doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022839449df05df416781f471c383af0c19\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right. Blame me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5a4cb3da9eb414781deb784568b9fcf\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I say that you should have appeared\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225085aec3de2b44ce81bddee1a3b42cfd\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Not me. The Minister should have appeared.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f64de260f8a42a683642f846159519c\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: With respect, the Minister should have appeared and not left it to the officials. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis bill takes choices away from old people. It patronises old people. The retiring elderly are the only class of adult New Zealanders who cannot choose what kind of property rights they want to buy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022 data-id=\u0022594a992b56194a95b606587a26814756\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022594a992b56194a95b606587a26814756\u0022\u003EMURRAY SMITH (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future is very pleased to see the passing of this bill, and its third reading today. We want to thank the Government for responding to our call that the bill be given urgency during this urgency period so that it could go through the Committee stage and the third reading and be sent on its way, to come into force in the quickest possible time. I am disappointed that the ACT party is the only party unable to support the bill. I hear what Mr Franks says\u2014he made very valuable contributions during the select committee process\u2014and I hear some of the dangers he talks about. However, very clearly, on balance this is a very good bill. It provides a balance between market forces and the necessary statutory control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003ERetirees and their families are often in a vulnerable position. Retirees investing in their final homes are often in a difficult situation. It is an emotional situation for families, and a situation where larger villages in particular have a power imbalance and are able, potentially, to rip off retirees and their families, just because of their greater knowledge of the situation and because of the unique situation and construct that retirement villages provide, as compared to ownership of one\u2019s own house. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EFormerly, the protections provided were really through the Securities Act, and as a lawyer I know the huge amount of paperwork that used to be involved concerning retirement villages. I tried to wade through the paperwork, and then explain to potential residents just what was involved. It was not always clear and transparent. This bill will provide far more clarity and transparency, specifically directed at the retirement village situation rather than at the broader securities regime that exists currently. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe balance between market forces and statutory controls is necessary. In my second reading speech, for the benefit particularly of Mr Jones, who had not heard of any cowboy operators, I referred to a retirement village in Petone that I have been directly involved with, known as Jackson Mews. In my second reading speech I made reference to the fact that the residents had had extraordinary difficulty in getting the operator, Mr John Gilbert, even to respond to the queries they had. I promised in that speech to report back to the House what happened, particularly following Mr Gilbert\u2019s promise that he would respond to queries within 7 days and would meet with the residents. I am pleased to say that at least he met with the residents. There was a strong turn-out of residents, who expressed their strong disgust at the way that he was operating. Unfortunately, it appears that Mr Gilbert cannot see beyond the dollars involved in his investment, and he is unable to understand the residents\u2019 point of view. For him, this is his village that he developed, and effectively he seems to see the residents as guests. He cannot understand why they should be making waves, including making waves publicly, about the running of the village, because all it does is undermine everybody\u2019s investment. We hope that with the passing of this bill, and the appointment of a statutory supervisor, he will be forced to come to the position of having to address these issues, and address them through the disputes regime that is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThe statute will provide a framework\u2014and only a framework\u2014within which retirement villages will operate. I guess one of the cautions about the bill is that a huge amount of ministerial discretion is provided for the village, through Orders in Council and other regulations. There is considerable scope here for a very interventionist approach, which I think would be both unwise and unnecessary. There needs to be a balance between control and the allowance of some flexibility within the market. Mr Franks has referred to the danger of over-intervention by the Government and over-control of this sector, which I think would be to its detriment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EThere are two matters particularly that come to my mind in respect of this level of control. One is the new provision in the Supplementary Order Paper for the statutory supervisor to enter into a deed of participation with the operator, and the other is that the requirements of the deed of participation will be set out by regulation. It seems to me that statutory supervisors know what they are doing, and if they have to be appointed, and the operator has to appoint them, the statutory supervisors will provide deeds that will adequately enable them to fulfil their responsibilities. I question whether the Government needs to tell statutory supervisors what ought to be in their deeds. Maybe there is some room for standardisation, but I would have thought that that would have developed through the market anyway, as statutory supervisors colluded to compare notes and come up with what they needed. They are experienced in the field. That is just one example of a signal that the Government may want to be too hands-on here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI was also critical in the select committee, and continue to be critical, of the provisions of clause 26, which require lawyers to certify that they have explained to residents the general effect of the agreement and its implications. As a lawyer, I almost took offence at the provision stating that the explanation required to be given must be given in a manner and language that is appropriate to the age and understanding of the intending residents. I see that as an insult to the legal profession, because lawyers already do that. That is their job and their trade, and to be told in legislation, when there is no evidence whatsoever that lawyers are falling down on the job in any respect in this regard, is a little like telling them how to suck eggs. Nevertheless, the provision is there, and I do not think it needs to be there to do the job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EI referred to exemptions during the Committee stage. The danger is that exemptions will backfire on residents by putting them in the situation where, if they are in an exempted retirement village, they can be faced with being threatened that if they stir up trouble, that will effectively mean the exemption will be lost, at extra cost to the village and extra cost to all the residents. I can see a situation where an operator could put pressure on residents by saying that if they make a complaint, then all their fellow residents would have to pay the cost of it. I hope that when the Minister draws up the criteria for exemptions under clause 75B, they are very tightly controlled. I think she could include some provisions to provide more balance. One might be for the registrar of retirement villages to chair the annual general meeting\u2014or provide someone to chair the annual general meeting\u2014where an exemption is granted, so that an independent person can get a feel as to whether residents are being heard and whether there are some genuine complaints, without having to go through a formal process of complaint. Certainly I think the registrar would have to take a greater interest in villages with exemptions than in those with a statutory supervisor appointed, which is really what this provision is getting at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EPossibly the bill should also be used in a transitional fashion. Some smaller villages should be encouraged to amalgamate with other villages\u2014it could happen where a church ran a number of villages\u2014to get that economy of size, so maybe exemptions can be looked at as a transitional measure to ease villages into a more satisfactory set-up. Mr Franks was certainly concerned about the impact that the bill might have on lower-level operators, and that if it is too draconian and standards are set too high, then the whole industry will effectively be left to the major players, and small people will not be able to get into it. I think it is a danger that the Minister needs to weigh very carefully, and be conscious of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225caeb43f-d5eb-4780-bddc-0fc23950543a\u0022\u003EIt will be nearly a year before the full regime is in place. It will be interesting to see how it develops. Anything new has to have a settling-down period, but generally it is a good bill. The officials have spent a lot of time on it. The select committee spent a very constructive period of time listening to submissions and developing the issues, and have obviously made a lot of changes that I think have been very positive. I think we have had the advantage of a Minister who is knowledgable, and is concerned to weigh up competing interests and provide some sort of balance. Many aspects of the bill will provide a far better environment. United Future is very pleased to see the bill go through its the third reading and finally come into force as law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226bada1105b1a41798a227b443dd26fb7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Retirement Villages Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;Green Party 9; United Future 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022af7093d7670b49ec8e8fdeec6af0e0b1\u0022\u003ECriminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3e5a4fcae434d2aad2706a1dcc62652\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002250d379702a4f4075b32fc41216126c3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250d379702a4f4075b32fc41216126c3a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill be now read a second time. I thank the Law and Order Committee for its work on the bill, and for the amendments it has suggested. As introduced, the bill had three main objectives: firstly, allowing the use of mouth or buccal swabs to obtain DNA profiles; secondly, extending the range of offences for which police may apply to the court to obtain DNA samples to include those suspected of committing burglary; and, thirdly, extending compulsory DNA testing for databank purposes to serious offenders currently in prison who were convicted of a relevant offence prior to the law change that allowed DNA testing for the first time in 1996. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EAlthough the bill represents a key part of the Government\u2019s comprehensive burglary package, its application is much broader and will greatly improve the ability of police to investigate and solve other serious crime. The bill significantly increases the scope for the DNA testing of suspects and those convicted of relevant offences. However, careful consideration has been given to ensuring that the law strikes an appropriate balance between legitimate law enforcement and the protection of basic personal rights. The ability for DNA samples to be obtained by buccal swabs will result in considerable benefits. Buccal swabs are obviously less intrusive than taking blood. They will also eliminate the cost of having a medically qualified person to perform the task of taking DNA samples, while at the same time producing a DNA profile of the same integrity as that obtained from a blood sample. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe extension of the suspect procedures in Part II to include burglary reinforces the Government\u2019s determination to crack down further on burglary. Burglary is a serious crime, is highly intrusive, and is often the gateway to more serious offending. Burglary rates have fallen under this Government\u2019s policies\u2014which include better resourcing for police, record high police numbers, record high police budgets, and a stronger burglary focus. Resolution rates have also risen significantly under this Government. This amendment will further improve the police\u2019s ability to resolve burglaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ECurrently, the offences in respect of which a suspect or convicted person can be required to provide a DNA sample are specified in the schedule to the Criminal Investigations (Blood Samples) Act. The bill originally extended this to encompass only burglary\u2014that in itself will have a major impact, as this is a high-volume offence. In light of submissions received, the committee recommended that the range of offences to which the Act applies be further extended to cover the new list of offences specified in Part 2, schedule 1A: any other offence punishable by a maximum penalty of at least 7 years\u2019 imprisonment, and any attempt or conspiracy to commit any of those offences, including offences in the principal Act. I concur with this extension, which gives the police the ability to obtain DNA to investigate a wider range of offences. The amendments have been made to better align the relevant offences under this legislation with the serious sexual or violent offences specified under the Sentencing Act for determining eligibility for preventive detention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn addition, as a result of a submission from the Police Association, three further offences preparatory to burglary, with a maximum penalty of less than 7 years\u2019 imprisonment, have been included. These offences relate to being in possession of items that indicate an intention to commit a burglary, or to convert another person\u2019s property. While the new definition of \u201Crelevant offence\u201D does not go as far as some submitters would wish, the offence threshold has been set at a sufficiently high level to indicate a rational connection between serious criminal conduct and the ability for compulsory State intervention. In recognising civil liberties submissions that raised issues about the retrospective application of the criminal law, retrospective powers will not attach to any of the new specified relevant offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe select committee has also recommended a number of amendments to ensure that the legislation will operate effectively by streamlining or improving aspects of both the existing law and the bill as introduced. In particular, I wish to refer to a number of amendments recommended to the new Part III police databank notice regime. These amendments will ensure that the operation of the Act cannot be defeated solely by a convicted person seeking a judicial hearing on grounds that lack merit. In the bill as introduced, potential did exist for convicted persons close to the expiry of the relevant time periods\u2014that is, 6 months from conviction for a person not detained in prison, or during the term of detention for those in prison\u2014to challenge the grounds for a databank notice and thereby ensure that the DNA sample could not be obtained during the allowable period. That loophole has been closed, and the person seeking the hearing will be bound by the judicial determination, even if that requires the sample to be taken after the relevant period has expired. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere is one further committee recommendation I want to mention. The committee has proposed that where a young person aged 14 to 16 consents to give a bodily sample and elects for a buccal swab to be taken, that young person may take it him or herself. Under the bill as introduced, only a medically qualified person could take such a sample. Given that many young people will be more comfortable taking the sample themselves in a manner no more invasive than cleaning their teeth, rather than being required to submit to a stranger swabbing inside their mouths, I believe that that is sensible. However, the added protection of an independent adult confirming the child\u2019s desire to take the sample, and witnessing the taking of the sample, is included. A number of other practical and technical amendments have been recommended by the committee. All have my support as sensible changes and clarifications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis bill represents a comprehensive overhaul of the 1995 Act. It strikes the appropriate balance in extending the use of DNA as a powerful crime-fighting investigative tool, while at the same time recognising and protecting personal rights. It should be noted that the bill applies not only to convicted persons, but also to suspects in respect of whom the presumption of innocence exists. This legislation is an important initiative in the Government\u2019s strong commitment to fight crime. Burglary rates will be driven down further, resolution rates will continue to improve, and community safety and the apprehension of criminals will be enhanced across the board by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIt is my intention during the Committee stage to move amendments to the bill by Supplementary Order Paper. Those amendments will preserve and regulate an existing police practice of obtaining buccal samples by consent from children. The proposed amendments will allow DNA profiles obtained by consent from children suspected of committing certain indictable offences to be used either to clear the child of suspicion, or alternatively to support an application for a Family Court declaration that the child is in need of care and protection. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022029449744e24477096356902aec6344a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022029449744e24477096356902aec6344a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E One would think, listening to the Minister, that we are embarking on a bold new strategy to defeat crime. Certainly, that is how he has portrayed it. It is sort of up there with the Sentencing Act, and is one of the great measures in response to the referendum in which 92 percent of New Zealanders voted to deal with crime. Certainly, the Minister is focused on burglary, but it seems to me that he needs to be reminded of some facts\u2014matters that he has scarcely touched upon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMembers will be interested to know that on the North Shore alone drug offences are up by 44 percent\u2014not 4.4 percent, but 44 percent. That is a huge increase in the space of just 1 year, and the Minister\u2019s response to it is a concern about extending laws to deal with burglary. Perhaps that is the one area where the offending rate has gone down somewhat, and, no doubt, that is not due to the Government but, largely, to people installing burglar alarms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EEven if one considered this legislation a reasonable proposition, which the Government proclaims and National supports, the reality is that it is only a small step. Why, for instance, has the Minister not taken a bold step? A bold step would be to say that modern DNA technology is essentially the same as old fingerprint technology. DNA is intended to identify suspects just as fingerprints are. DNA is the modern fingerprint, so a truly innovative approach would have been, say, that for everyone arrested, DNA samples would be taken. The old arguments that used to be run\u2014that we could not do so because the taking of blood samples was too intrusive\u2014do not work any more. The select committee report itself revealed that the mouth swab, essentially a swab between the lips, takes 10 to 20 seconds. I can guarantee that to take a fingerprint is a much more laborious process than that, and is more intrusive upon the individual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo I say to the Government that it should get with modern technology. It should be forward-looking and provide real tools to the police so that they can deal with crime. The Government should not be bringing in a half-hearted measure like this. We in our interjections mentioned that we have had 4 long years of this Government, and this is the best that it can do in providing new tools for crime fighting. The Government has taken a minor step forward, and that is the best way we can describe it. There has been a complete failure to recognise the increase in violent crime right across the board. [Interruption] The Minister of Police, who obviously needs to be educated, should know that crime across the nation is up 2.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225be9870d0ba1457881484928a67e7b5f\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member in favour of the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f96795be7a84e949204cb6e4360cb6c\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: I have said I am in favour of the bill. I have also said that the Government has a responsibility to put measures before this House that would go further, much further, and it has failed to take that step. Because this is such an important issue, it is necessary to record in Hansard the increase in crime in the last 12 months. Overall the crime rate is up by 2. 5 percent, but it is worse, because violent crime is up by 3.6 percent. Sexual offences went down, and drug offences went up by 4.9 percent. The crime rate at the more serious end of the scale went up 14 percent, and overall crime is up on the North Shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022761aa196d7e5474a979416b03fa1cfba\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Homicides are down about 20 percent, aren\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0efdff23d7e49b5ade8a281b65f6198\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister will know, that is susceptible to the law of small figures\u2014that we can get large variations because of the relative scarcity of the crime. But when we look at the huge sweep of the large scale, we see that the rate of the number of grievous assaults is up 8.5 percent, and group assemblies are up 35.5 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOn this side of the Chamber we have been reflecting our concern about methamphetamine. That is one of the great scourges. The gangs control crime in our country. Everyone will tell us that the bulk of crime comes from a relatively small number of gang-related families. Has this Government introduced into this Parliament any measures that would deal with gang behaviour?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93c5a5a768e4866bfe3bc902ef4cd9c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yeah. It\u2019s got them on the dole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee3cb6ca0df2401cb2523583e72a84a2\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: It has them on the dole committing crime. That is what is happening. Gang members are on the dole committing crime, but where are the measures that would deal with association? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eecb589fe22a45f1869a296ec76967d5\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Lowest numbers on the dole for 15 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223112328b49914a0a9e8af2e2c85a6584\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: What about the huge increase in the number of gang members generally? The Minister needs to evaluate his own department\u2019s statistics, which show that the number of gang members is now 20,000. A few years ago that number was only 15,000. That is a 25 percent increase, and when the Minister wonders why it is that drug offences are up so much, he need look only at gang numbers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E It is not enough for the Government to bring these kinds of measures to the House after 4 years but not take the serious steps\u2014the urgent steps\u2014that would deal with crime on a much more substantive basis. It is not just a question of the law; it is also a question of police resourcing. Why is it that we have only just over 7,000 police officers in this nation\u2014a nation that has a population of 4 million? That is a ratio of less than one police officer for every 500 people, which is a ratio worse than that of Australia, Canada, Britain, and every single state in the United States\u2014then we wonder why our crime is increasing. We should be taking the serious steps that are needed to make a real difference, not just doing minor tinkering around the edges of criminal law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAnother point I wish to make is that yesterday the Minister presented a 23-page Supplementary Order Paper. I find it extraordinary that the extensive provisions on that Supplementary Order Paper\u2014on a bill that was introduced years ago and that was before the Law and Order Committee for an extensive period of time, with plenty of opportunity being given to make submissions\u2014were not put before the select committee, where it could have been debated and considered, and the necessary extensions made. The Minister might go on about all the great measures he has made, but this bill is an indictment. It is an indictment on the Government and its minor, trivial, and pathetic efforts to deal with crime. We do not have enough police. We do not have sufficient tools in the criminal kit. The sentencing laws are still deficient. United Future has not been able to put the necessary pressure on the Government to change the Sentencing Act. Violent offenders are still getting out of prison at one-third of their sentences. People on home detention are committing crimes, almost on a daily basis. The reality is that we have an indictment of failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EJust on Sunday of this week I went to a public meeting on the North Shore, and I can tell the Minister\u2014I know I cannot draw the Speaker into the debate\u2014that the member for Northcote was present. It was the first sunny day in Auckland for weeks and weeks, and the meeting was well attended. There was a deep anger\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b57194dcd44e4540acc872d526034ef3\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How many were there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ba18e6d7d91433cb4837312a30738a9\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: There were 50 people there, all demonstrating their concerns. I want to close by saying that the people at that meeting were family members of victims of murder, but what is the Minister\u2019s response? He laughs at that. He laughs at their pain and does not change the Sentencing Act, which would deal directly with their concerns. That is what they want. They want action, and they have not got it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022199a5acae4424eef82c199c076cd144f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022199a5acae4424eef82c199c076cd144f\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the second reading of the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill, which has been returned from the Law and Order Committee. As the Minister said, the bill has three main objectives: to allow the use of mouth samples to obtain DNA profiles, because technology allows us to do that now; to give the police the power to apply to the court to obtain DNA samples from those who are suspected of having committed burglaries\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202bd763b757740c188567d61b9045598\u0022\u003EEdwin Perry\u003C/span\u003E: We know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9d061c7b3c14bf2be20c788ba373a62\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good provision in the bill, as well, and I know that Mr Perry from New Zealand First will want to expand on it. The bill also extends compulsory DNA testing to serious offenders in prison for databank purposes, if they were committed for an offence before 1986. This is very good legislation. We should pass it through the House so we can continue the very good grip on law and order that the Labour-led Government is proud to have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u0022f65a382f46e14013907f0fa84769e4c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f65a382f46e14013907f0fa84769e4c5\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I stand on behalf of New Zealand First to support the second reading and to fully support the bill\u2014unlike the Prostitution Reform Bill that New Zealand First vigorously opposed. Let us get back to this very good bill. Its aim is to amend the Criminal Investigations (Blood Samples) Act by extending the powers of the police to, firstly, allow DNA samples to be collected by mouth swab; secondly, allow DNA samples to be taken from persons suspected of committing burglary or entering with intent; thirdly, provide for compulsory DNA testing of inmates detained under a sentence of imprisonment, who are in custody for a relevant offence for which they were convicted prior to the commencement of the Act; fourthly, repeal the current requirement for a compulsion order hearing before a judge prior to a databank compulsion sample being taken from a person convicted of a relevant offence; fifthly, extend the range of material that may be used as a basis to compel a suspect to provide a DNA sample; and, sixthly, simplify and modify procedures or repeal significant requirements to reduce costs, improve efficiency, or ease administration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First upholds the principles underpinning this bill\u2014that it is the basic right of all New Zealanders to live in a safe society, that the rights of victims are paramount, and that the offender\u2019s rights are subject to the rights of both the victim and the State. Our 2002 manifesto in the last election, Keeping New Zealand First, clearly outlines our plan for law and order issues, including our desire to legislate to have all criminals DNA tested and records stored, and to introduce a requirement that every person arrested, irrespective of the seriousness or the nature of the crime, contribute a sample to the DNA databank. That would occur at the same time and in the same manner that applies at present for the fingerprinting of all those arrested, and would form an electronic record of detainees as opposed to a database of fingerprints. Mouth swabs would generally be used, as opposed to blood samples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EForensic DNA profiling has been the most remarkable breakthrough in finding the perpetrators of horrendous crimes\u2014crimes that otherwise would be impossible to solve. Here we have on our doorstep a way of bringing to account those people who commit heinous crimes against our innocents. There should be no hesitation whatsoever that this bill should be processed through the House and given the royal assent to become the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EHowever, I have some serious reservations that the limited respective provisions of this bill mean that samples cannot be obtained compulsorily from all those who have committed relevant offences. That was a concern to a number of members on the Justice and Electoral Committee. The law should apply equally to those currently alive who have already demonstrated that they have a potential to commit a serious crime. An inmate who has done his or her time in prison but is fortunate to have been released a few days before the commencement of the Criminal Investigations (Blood Samples) Act, which came into force on 12 August 1996, should not be given any special privileges. We are looking at legislation of at least a decade ago, and justice should not be kind with time. Time and time again we have seen repeat offenders, and although we have been unable to DNA test absolutely everybody in this country, this bill will enable us to target a group that has a high probability of committing serious crime, and it will therefore aid the police in their investigations, which will save an enormous amount of time, resources, and manpower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThe bill in its present form seems to be generous, in that it has widened the provisions relating to the taking of samples from persons convicted of offences to also include those convicted of attempts to commit offences. That, however, is useless if it is not pursuant to a databank compulsion notice. The bill should recognise that it would be both in the interests of victims and in the public interest if the police were unfettered in their duties of enforcing the law by being able to issue databank compulsion notices, as legislation allows if they are authorised to do so by the Commissioner of Police.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThe bill has provision for those receiving databank compulsion notices to request a hearing to have an opinion by a judge, on three grounds: the offence is not a relevant offence, the conviction is not one to which the bill applies or for which conviction has been quashed, and the taking of bodily samples by all three methods will cause serious harm to a person\u2019s health. There are also other specified matters relating to service of all the content of the notice. These grounds should also be applied to the taking of mouth swabs. The Police Association places a high emphasis on crime-scene training, including preserving crime-scene sites, and emphasising to crime-scene staff the risk of the contamination, which has been a problem in past investigations. If police are able to breathalyse drivers randomly for alcohol, there is no reason why they should not also be able to take mouth samples.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EIt concerns me that the bill could be self-defeating when its own provisions can contradict the very reason for having the bill in the first place. I appreciate that human rights and quality assurance provisions should be incorporated into legislation, but if it is in the public\u2019s interest for a person to be issued a databank compulsion notice, and the DNA is sampled only in extreme and glaring examples, why should the rights of that person prevail? It is all very well to ask the consent of the person providing the sample whether he or she minds whether a registered nurse, a medical technologist, or a phlebotomist takes the sample. Instead, we should specify who is the best to take the sample at a given time, and specify that there are sufficient quality controls in place to ensure the process is 100 percent error-free. I would hate to see legislative technicalities, political correctness, or lawyers\u2019 self-interest standing in the way of public interest and safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThere was a time when people thought it was a breach of human rights if they were stopped randomly for breath testing. Science and legislation made that possible, and, as a result, thousands of lives have been saved on our roads. We cannot back the sum statistically, because we have no way of knowing how many people would have died if those sorts of measures had not been put in place. This bill will let criminals know that if they commit crimes they will be caught. They can run but they cannot hide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EIt will also prevent innocent people like David Dougherty from being wrongly convicted. He spent many years needlessly behind bars, whilst the true perpetrator, Nicholas Reekie, carried on with his deviant acts of sexual violence against children, women, and the elderly. It will also save millions in compensation claims and lengthy legal hearings. Teresa Cormack\u2019s murderer thought he would not have to pay the price for his criminal and senseless act, which cost a sweet young girl\u2019s life and left her family forever grieving. At least now they can find a small sense of peace in the knowledge that this person is behind bars at last.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI would like to think that this legislation would not just bring people to justice, but that it would prevent heinous crimes from occurring in the first place. How many murderers and rapists start off with assault, petty thieving and that type of deviant behaviour? The public are crying out to feel safe on the streets and in their own homes. People will think twice about their actions when they know they will be caught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI commend the Law and Order Committee on its cooperation, across the political divide, in upholding the need for the police to be given sufficient power and resources to bring former and current criminals to justice. I conclude by fully endorsing the bill, and by encouraging all those deliberating on it to put public interest and safety at the forefront of their consideration. New Zealand First supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa05ba93070344c99a5575df5ea8ba9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa05ba93070344c99a5575df5ea8ba9d\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party, looking at the bodily samples bill, has to rely on the work done by the Law and Order Committee and our own reading of what we can of the bill. With the Minister bringing in yesterday a series of technical amendments in a Supplementary Order Paper amounting to 25 pages, it is very hard to look at this bill as a parliamentarian should. It is going through under urgency\u2014all its stages in one day. We had a 68-page bill to start with, with a commentary from the select committee of some 26 pages, and we were prepared to do what we could in some highly technical areas, on the basis of that. Then the Minister brought in Supplementary Order Paper 159 with all these amendments. What it means is that we have to go back to first principles. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI hope that in the course of the Committee stage my colleagues in the ACT party will find out the answers to a few simple questions. Why is it that DNA is not simply taken routinely from every person who commits an offence punishable by, say, more than 3 months\u2019 imprisonment? Why is there not some understanding that the entire community could grasp, instead of pages and pages of technical requirements and distinctions between consent measuring and compulsion orders? Why cannot the community simply absorb the idea that if a person commits an offence of a certain degree of seriousness, that person will automatically have a DNA profile stored?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f80b3805f3245998957d104e5ce5506\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: In fact, any offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a82b6959584427190dc3b569d4279cf\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Any offence, any conviction. It may be that traffic offenders do not have any particular predictable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b435642ec88427894b9045146a9ee88\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Arrestable offence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022601e5eb21c514784abc8b9cdea504fdf\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: An arrestable offence, Mr Mapp suggests\u2014but any offence with which there is some statistical probability of subsequent reoffending. Why is that not the case? I have another question. How do all of these provisions relate to the law\u2019s only real concern\u2014that the innocent go free and the guilty are convicted? I say that because as I go through the report I see that there is a whole lot of detail on concerns about process, and a great deal of prescription of the manner in which samples have to be taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8d31d9a50aa4baf9dccb4d9e157a1cf\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right, because the people are presumed to be innocent until proved guilty\u2014unless the member believes it to be otherwise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f29a4a5b5024e6da111efbb9c3758b8\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It seems to me from the interjection of the Minister that he thinks that in some way DNA sampling is a punishment and that to take a sample is an evidence of conviction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd51625033d6430b92e1c5391302e614\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: No, generally we need consent from a person who is still deemed to be innocent for an intrusive process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ddd1d7d6da64735a7f980890635a411\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says that consent is required. Why is consent required? Is consent required for a fingerprint? What is the difference, I ask the Minister, between a fingerprint and DNA? What is the difference between taking a photograph and taking a DNA sample? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261bc67b90b554354942e65e99b4e871e\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: How is it that the member can be such a libertarian on some issues, then pretend not to respect the civil liberties of others?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b6ed2ad82e084360956ef254e95067b2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister asks how can we be libertarians on some issues, and not be worried about civil liberties in relation to DNA. I am asking questions that are simply not answered. There is one very serious sign that the select committee addressed the issues entirely in terms of the Government view. That is found on page 23 of the commentary on the bill, where the committee deals with what it calls amendments outside the scope of the bill. The commentary states: \u201Camendments aimed at reducing the potential for contamination of crime scene samples by the investigating officer, whether deliberate or accidental, are outside the scope of the bill.\u201D I would have thought that that should have been the primary concern of this bill. The real issue for us all is not whether consent should be obtained\u2014a simply evidential matter\u2014but whether the evidence, once gained, could be misused, as appears to have been the case for Arthur Alan Thomas, or whether, as often suspected by other offenders, it is used for fitting up, where police decide that they will take justice into their own hands and manufacture the evidence. If there is a widespread community fear of that, then this bill should address that fear instead of having reams and reams of procedure to tangle up the police, and reams of protection against having to give a sample. The real focus here should have been on making sure that samples could not be planted at the site, and that samples could not be misread by scientists, whose main customers are the police and who become wearily suspicious and predisposed towards believing in the police case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E There has been enough evidence from the United States experience of the risk in having one body\u2014as we do in New Zealand; we have the Institute of Environmental Science and Research. Even with the highest standards of integrity, that one body comes to know that its main client is the police. This bill should have been focused precisely on the things that the select committee members tell us it did not even touch, which, I say again, is the potential for contamination of crime-scene samples by the investigating officer, whether deliberate or accidental. Contamination, or planting, is what it is all about. From the ACT perspective we cannot understand why so much time has been taken, and why a bill that has been lying about in this form since 3 June\u2014but first introduced in May last year; more than a year ago\u2014has all this preoccupation with procedural correctness and does not address the main risk of injustice. The main risk, the thing we should all be alarmed about, is the prospect of the police deciding that they will do justice, as they see it, by manufacturing evidence or by being careless with evidence. As the select committee said, this bill does not even touch on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIn his introductory speech to this second reading, the Minister referred repeatedly to success in fighting crime. Why does this bill not recognise that the greatest predictor of future crime now, and the most valuable information, would in fact be samples taken from youth offenders? Once again, this Government is establishing a pattern that says to young people: \u201CDon\u2019t worry about being responsible. We don\u2019t treat your crime as real. If you commit a crime, even if it\u2019s of adult viciousness you won\u2019t be obliged to give a sample. You can\u2019t be required to consent.\u201D These young offenders are getting exactly the wrong message. Offenders should know that it is automatic that if they start down that path they will be readily detected in the future. They are the ones where a pattern has not yet been set, then established\u2014that is, a pattern of regarding the law as a joke, and having the view that the community puts all sorts of technical trips in the path of the police and the justice authorities because it does not really mean what it says when it says that crime will not pay. This bill should have provided that age would be no obstacle to getting a sample. It should have simply said: \u201CWe judge by the crime; not by the status.\u201D I am also concerned that the select committee allowed itself to be sidetracked by the so-called libertarians into worrying about retrospectivity. What does that have to do with it? In their discussion, committee members allowed themselves to treat the question of whether a sample can be taken as though it were a form of punishment. It is simply gathering evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThere is no reason for all the endless detail in the bill: how long after the conviction; when the application must be made; what status it had; and why the sample was not taken within a prescribed period. That is all utterly irrelevant if we see DNA sampling as being like fingerprints, or as being evidence\u2014like taking a photograph\u2014or as being an aid to gathering evidence for the court to consider. Instead, they have fallen into the trap of seeing this as some kind of punishment. It is not a punishment. It should be an automatic consequence of conviction. It should be an automatic consequence, indeed, of suspicion, in cases where the person has a prior record that reasonably leads to any expectation that it is legitimate to take him or her into account as the suspect population. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI see that the select committee took approximately 4 hours to hear the evidence and a total of 16 hours on this bill. I only wish it had been directed to recognising that for the law to work it must be simple and it must fit people\u2019s intuitive expectations. Every offender or would-be offender in this country needs to know that any method that does not infringe on the rights of the innocent will be used to determine guilt or innocence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00224f0fb55e1c28414890915ee5004865bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f0fb55e1c28414890915ee5004865bd\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to support the second reading of this bill. We support the bill because it expands the range of offences for which DNA samples can be collected, as well as expanding the methods by which those samples may be collected beyond those listed in the Criminal Investigations (Blood Samples) Act. That Act has been superseded not only in advances in technology but also by an increasing recognition of the power of DNA profiling to apprehend our most dangerous criminals. The acceptance of buccal swabs as reliable samples for the purposes of DNA profiling means that the whole process of matching crime-scene evidence with the offender is now that much easier. Samples from inside the mouth are quicker to administer, much less invasive, and less susceptible to claims that they conflict with religious sensitivities, if that matters to people, and belonephobia, which is the fear of needles. By expanding the ambit of the Act from blood samples to bodily samples, the bill also provides some future-proofing in the likely eventuality that further advances will be made in the sampling and testing of DNA material. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe bill also expands the range of crimes to which these crime-fighting tools will be applied. In the case of burglary, the current law enables samples to be collected and entered on to the databank only from those convicted of burglary and entering with intent, for the purposes of matching with more serious crimes. This meant that the Act already recognised the gateway effect of burglary in terms of its relationship with sexual and violent crime, but did not allow police to collect from burglary suspects evidential samples that might help to convict them of other crimes associated with burglary. The inclusion of burglary suspects in the regime proposed by this bill remedies the situation, and also means that the DNA sampling and matching regime now treats burglary as a serious offence in itself, and rightly so. Although a large number of burglars leave at a scene DNA material that can be applied to profiles in the databank, if the match cannot be used as a basis for applying a suspect compulsion order for a burglary then yet another offending thug may avoid conviction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIn its wisdom the Law and Order Committee saw fit to add a number of sexual and violent offences to the sampling regime, and here I think there was a great deal of unanimity amongst not only United Future, New Zealand First, and National but also Labour. I congratulate the process on showing that unanimity. This is very much in keeping with the objectives of the original Act to ensure that it covers serious, violent, and indictable offences where DNA is likely to be left at the crime scene. The committee recommended that offences that endanger human life and all of those punishable by a sentence of at least 7 years be included. We also recommended that as the bill included attempted crimes, conspiracy to commit a serious offence should also be included. If police are able to apprehend an offender before a crime is actually committed but is clearly about to occur, then this hardly makes for front-page news, yet in this case at least one person, if not a number of people, would be saved the pain of becoming yet another victim. If we want to help the police to apprehend criminals before they ruin the lives of others, then we need to give them all the available tools to do so. The only difference between a crime committed and a crime contemplated is success, and to this extent we are quite happy to encourage failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EWhilst United Future agrees with the select committee recommendations that seek to extend the range of relevant offences that are able to utilise DNA testing, we are strongly of the view that we should not stop there. We concur with the submission of the Police Association and also of the Sensible Sentencing Trust that DNA samples should be obtained from all offenders on arrest to create an even more potent crime-fighting tool. But Government members on the committee rejected that on the basis that it would necessitate a major rewrite of the law and therefore was outside the scope of the bill. This was the advice of the Office of the Clerk, and I acknowledge the difficulties that such a sizable amendment would present. The simple truth is that we did not want to wait another 2 years for a re-write to come through, and allow another range of scumbags to get through in the process at the moment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EWe would like to revisit this law down the track with an amendment to expand the legislation even further. The main reason adopted by the Government, we think, was that by including all suspects in the testing regime we would be unnecessarily infringing on their personal liberty simply on the basis of those suspicions. The Government used the same rationale to reject the submission of the Police Association that offences punishable by a maximum of 3 years in prison be included\u2014something that I thought would have at least represented a compromise position. As an aside, I note that most of the remaining violent offences that would fall into this category have since been included in the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper, and we are grateful for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E The argument that all crimes should not be included due to the protection of personal liberty is made by the very same people who also argue, quite rightly, that the use of buccal techniques should open up the number of offences for which DNA samples can be obtained because it is less invasive and less intrusive on personal liberties. How is it any more a breach of personal liberties than the current requirement of obtaining fingerprints for all arrests? That answer has never been given. As an example, I cannot understand why peeping and peering are not included in this bill. The reason given is that it is subject to a maximum sentence of a $500 fine upon conviction, and despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary from the police and criminal profilers, it is also claimed that peeping and peering is not the gateway to more serious offending that it is claimed to be. Of those in prison for violent and sexual offences from 1995 to 1998, only 2 percent had previous convictions for peeping, compared with the 45 percent of violent offenders and 25 of percent sexual offenders who had convictions for burglaries. But I say that even 2 percent is good enough if we can use DNA sampling to stop one peeping Tom from becoming a serial rapist. How do we exclude them from people who are simply casing the joint so they can commit a robbery? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThere is another good argument as to why peeping should be included in the bill. The police know that this kind of offending leads to more dangerous sex crimes, so they will be tempted to book peeping Toms for observing with intent to commit a burglary so that they can be sure that their slimy genetic material is on file. If we do not include more crimes in this regime, then we are sending the message to the victims of those crimes that the resolution of those offences is not a priority for the Government or the police, and that is not fair on the police, who want to solve those crimes and make these people feel safe again. I have a potential solution. If the Government will not lower the bar on the types of crimes that should apply to this bill, then we could always increase the sentences for those crimes to 7 years\u2019 prison and beyond. Another reason United Future would like to see this technique applied to other offenders is the potential for deterrence that it creates. By compelling those currently incarcerated to submit to a DNA sample, this bill may alter the rate of recidivism of those offenders when they leave prison. Knowing that the law enforcement authorities have their DNA profile on file should make any logical criminal reluctant to reoffend\u2014criminals would know that a powerful evidentiary tool is readily available to be used against them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIn addition, the Law and Order Committee recommended that additional information be included on the sample compulsion notice given to offenders, advising them of the nature of the offence and what the sample will be used for. This should be a salutatory reminder of the forces stacked against the criminals should they lapse again, so why not extend it to all serious crime and create an even more wide-ranging deterrent effect? United Future supports this legislation because it leads down the right track, but it needs to go much further and include the widest possible range of offences if it is to be ultimately effective in nipping aspiring criminals and deviants in the bud and assisting the police in resolving crimes. Like the member from ACT who spoke before, we also have concerns that youth crime is subject to a different regime. Catching a criminal, and the sentencing that accrues from that, should not be dependent upon the age of the criminal. It should be directly in proportion to the crime committed and the offence that that crime imposes upon victims and society. We heartily recommend this bill because it is a very good step forward. We look forward to amendments further down the track to expand and entrench this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u002248d3f66679ef44e09307f6fe1929c692\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248d3f66679ef44e09307f6fe1929c692\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens will be opposing this bill. We had concerns about it when it was first introduced, and although we support the provisions that allow the use of buccal samples as a less invasive way of obtaining DNA, we have expressed concern about the extension of the powers to take DNA samples by force or coercive means from people who are suspected\u2014not convicted; merely suspects\u2014of committing a burglary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe are even more concerned about the bill as reported back from the Law and Order Committee because it now includes a number of other offences, and we believe that the bill as reported back goes beyond what are acceptable limits on the ability of the police to take samples by coercive means. I refer to appendix B of the select committee report, where it refers to a number of offences, many of them very serious offences, and also to any other offence punishable by a maximum penalty of at least 7 years\u2019 imprisonment. Perhaps my memory is failing me, but as far as I recall that includes stealing a goat, and it seems rather bizarre that someone suspected of stealing a goat is able to have DNA compulsorily obtained from them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe believe that this bill goes far too far, and we cannot support it. We will be supporting, during the Committee stage, the Supplementary Order Paper from the Minister. We believe that it does include a number of sensible provisions, and if the bill is to proceed it will be sensible to include those provisions. In particular, we think that allowing buccal samples to be taken from children under certain circumstances and with their consent is a sensible measure. We had discussions with the Minister about that, and we assured ourselves that there are some adequate safeguards to protect the rights of children in those circumstances. So we will support that Supplementary Order Paper. But we are unable to support the bill through further stages. I will not speak at great length about that now, but I will speak during further stages of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022a1a0a223ff6d4c418da3ff2bf4e8d3ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a1a0a223ff6d4c418da3ff2bf4e8d3ed\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill, which forms part of an important strategy by this Government to combat burglary. This Government recognises that criminals start off with burglary and often escalate on to far more serious crimes, including sexual and violent crimes, as my colleague from United Future Marc Alexander pointed out. Therefore, extending the ability of police to take DNA samples from burglary suspects is a vital component of attacking burglary. If those criminals are dealt with at that stage in their criminal careers, or if they do go on to later offend, they are more likely to be picked up further down the track. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EDNA technology has moved on significantly since 1995, and this bill reflects that. At that time, it was thought that only blood would give accurate enough results in order to put someone in prison for a crime. The reality now is that buccal samples, which are far less expensive, and far less invasive, are able to do that. This bill will provide police with an excellent resource for combating burglary and serious crime, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022833aa3add9b0492480ad5c3d88f403f1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022833aa3add9b0492480ad5c3d88f403f1\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on this bill, and I want to raise the issue of the seriousness with which this Minister takes the problem of serious heinous crime in New Zealand, when today he introduces a 23-page Supplementary Order Paper. That may be OK for him, because he has been planning this, but for members in the House who have only just had the opportunity to try to digest it today, it is totally unfair. On the other hand it gives an indication to the public of New Zealand as to whether this Minister is serious about fighting serious awful crime in New Zealand. I would suggest that the Minister think about whether he would show a more serious attitude by allowing this Supplementary Order Paper to go back to the Law and Order Committee so that it could be properly debated. It is totally unfair that he introduces this today in urgency when we will suddenly, after 4 years, rush this matter through the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, this has now proven to be a regular modus operandi of a Government that I think, in the end, does not do things necessarily for the right reason, and finds itself in a position where it is coming up to the end of the year, and 4 years later I guess the Minister thinks: \u201CWell, gosh, I guess it\u2019s time, I\u2019d better get this bill through the House.\u201D, and so here we are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E It is worth reminding the House that he probably felt he needed to do something anyway. The Hon Tony Ryall had certainly progressed the work for the bill and was looking to address the matter before the 1999 election. He then had a member\u2019s bill in the ballot and no doubt that would have put pressure on the Minister to do something about it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThat is absolutely not good enough. Serious crime is up, out there in real New Zealand, and the public is worried about whether it has a Government that is serious about fighting serious crime. I guarantee that there is no New Zealand person out there who thinks that, especially considering the Minister with the great barking he used to do when he was in Opposition, and the promises he used to make of how he would address these matters. Four years later, we are only just dealing with something on which a lot of the work had already been done when he came into power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe original Act that underpins the bill today came into force in 1996. Since then, of course, the technology of DNA testing has moved on significantly, and accordingly this legislation updates the use of DNA testing as an effective crime-fighting tool. Goodness knows, the police need every tool they can get to fight the level of serious offending that is now going on in New Zealand and of which we see evidence daily. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EUnder the existing legislation there are two regimes for the collection of samples. The Part II suspect regime allows for blood samples to be obtained from those suspected of committing an indictable offence. While most people provide blood samples by consent, the New Zealand Police can apply to the court for a compulsion order if consent is refused. The Part III databank regime differs in that while any person over the age of 17 may be requested to provide a blood sample to store in the databank, he or she may be compelled to give a blood sample only following conviction for a relevant offence as listed in the schedule. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe main provisions of the bill have been traversed by previous speakers. They allow for the use of improvements in technology over the last 4 years. I shall focus on a couple of matters that have been raised by a previous speaker, the ACT MP Stephen Franks. I also want to ask why we are piffling around here, when, as I said, crime soars. For instance, why do we not extend the provisions to all those arrested? On the other side of the ledger there is the issue of civil liberties and the protection of individual rights. The select committee clearly covered that issue. But it would show a responsibility on the part of this House if we looked more seriously at extending the provisions of the legislation to include even those who are arrested on charges that have a penalty of potential imprisonment of 3 months or over, or a more extended time if necessary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWhile it is important that we support this legislation, it does not go far enough. At the end of the day, the true benefit of the legislation will be known only by victims and their families if they are still around to talk about it, and that is the problem. No one responsible citizen out there would think that we had gone far enough in addressing matters of serious crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe other issue that was also raised previously by the United Future member of Parliament was concern about a different regime being applied to youth offenders. If members cast their minds back to some of the most serious crimes that have been committed over the last 12 months to 2 years, or so, the age of those offenders is a huge worry for law-abiding citizens, who are entitled to safety and security. Of course, with the awful rise in the use of the drug P, and it seems that a lot of younger people are getting involved in using that drug, one would have to question why the regime that applies to young offenders should be different. Again, those are matters that members in this House were elected to address, and it is not good enough that we have a regime that does not take into account the fact that the age of offenders has got younger, and the seriousness of crimes committed by young people has become more dire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe select committee obviously worked its way through the issues put before it. I certainly agree that there needs to be a proper balance between the use and extension of crime-fighting tools such as DNA testing. That has to be balanced against the rights of the individual. No doubt the select committee report shows that the balancing act was one of the main issues addressed at the committee. But that being so, this bill does not go far enough. It does not address the worries and the concerns of law-abiding citizens out there in the real world. This bill does not go far enough. Serious crime is up. We see it for ourselves, day in and day out, on our television stations and in our newspapers. Ask the victims of serious crime what it is like to be at the receiving end of some of the heinous activity that is now going on in our country. Members should think about the pairing of this legislation with the rising use of the drug P and whether we address that problem in the very modest way we do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a168ac1b50634b5bb4e6841b6284387d\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f09879bf7fdc4961ae389339a4793822\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f09879bf7fdc4961ae389339a4793822\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3b36caf81dd46c9a6b11dc9f4a904fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3b36caf81dd46c9a6b11dc9f4a904fb\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand that there has been a little bit of discussion and it seems, as we did with the previous bill, that there may be agreement over the whole of the Committee to seek leave for us to take a wide-ranging debate. Before the motion is put I seek leave of the House that it be an instruction to the Committee that we have one wide-ranging debate on the bill. Members can object to that if they wish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022564f09aab24d4b38b45f2c8c6b8695f7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022564f09aab24d4b38b45f2c8c6b8695f7\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to take a wide-ranging debate. Is there any objection? There is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c948a48ed6ef43569b17d295b42b79e1\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000541\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 40, and schedules\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4dad463d2c14dddb50197bad2df598b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4dad463d2c14dddb50197bad2df598b\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I will be moving an amendment, which is more in the nature of a statement of intent. I am doing it because I believe the purpose of this bill is fundamentally too limited. It is fundamentally too modest, and that speaks enormously of the deficiency, or the paucity of imagination, of the Government. The Government has simply not taken on board that a DNA sample is the modern equivalent of a fingerprint, so it has produced a relatively complex bill, built on the 1995 legislation. It has then provided a 23-page Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI said, in my second reading speech and elsewhere, that DNA is the modern fingerprint. No one has any objections on civil liberties grounds to requiring persons who are arrested to give fingerprints. That is just seen as a normal and proper thing to happen. It is done for the purposes of identification, so that the people who are known risks are entered on a criminal database, not only in the case of a particular offence they have committed, but also for checking purposes with regard to any future offences. Basically, there is no other purpose for the taking of fingerprints. It is to provide proof, in certain circumstances, of a particular offence, but also to be entered on a database. I ask the Minister in the chair, Phil Goff, this basic question: why does the Government not take the leap of imagination that would be required to think forward and to understand that we are no longer in 1995, when blood samples had to be taken for DNA\u2014and I can understand the concerns around that\u2014and that the technology has moved on, so that the taking of a sample is no longer intrusive? It is now no more intrusive than taking a fingerprint. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOn principle, I will be moving an amendment that states that the Act should apply to all offences that could carry a penalty of imprisonment. I have limited it to that. It could actually be wider, but I understand the Government\u2019s and other parties\u2019 concerns about widening it. As a matter of principle, surely we should be able to say that offenders who commit offences that carry a term of imprisonment\u2014even if that penalty is not imposed\u2014should be required to give a DNA sample, both in relation to the particular offence, for issues of proof in the trial, and to the database generally. I have put forward, as a matter of principle, an amendment that would establish that. Essentially, I ask the Government to look at our criminal law in a forward-thinking way and to appreciate that we are no longer locked into the past. The technology has evolved, DNA is the modern fingerprint, and the law ought to reflect that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIn my speech in the second reading debate I made a great deal about the failure of the Government to take the essential, critical steps that would get on top of crime. Now is the opportunity for the Government to demonstrate that it is serious about crime, and to change its whole way of thinking in relation to crime detection, so that this kind of technique could be used for a much broader purpose. I notice the Minister in the chair, the Hon Phil Goff, is consulting the officials. I would like him to take a call and say what is wrong, if anything, with the proposition that I have made. I appreciate that I have not provided a 23-page Supplementary Order Paper. He may feel that that sort of Supplementary Order Paper would be required for that kind of change. Nevertheless, as a matter of principle, the Minister may take on board that kind of change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThis is an important point, because I want Government members, even if they pass this bill into law today, which they undoubtedly will\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022983cec73ba7348e7bd3fb1398157e11a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: With the member\u2019s support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da7f8f6db864c45a783cdc3c3693796\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we will support it. I want Government members to say that they do need to take a more back-to-basics, back-to-first-principles approach to this measure, and to look at what they are doing. I want them to say that, maybe, there needs to be some legislation\u2014perhaps called the \u201CDNA Samples Bill 2004\u201D\u2014that would require all people charged with an offence that carries a term of imprisonment to provide a DNA sample, irrespective of whether the offence is under the Crimes Act, the Transport Act, the Misuse of Drugs Act, or a whole host of other legislation. The general principle I am talking about is crimes, the seriousness of which can be measured according to whether they carry a term of imprisonment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI do not suggest going quite as far as one could. One could simply substitute \u201CDNA\u201D for \u201Cfingerprints\u201D. In that case, a DNA sample would be taken for all offences, many of which do not carry terms of imprisonment. That would be one approach. But the approach that I suggest, which would essentially lead to a new bill and would treat this legislation as merely an interim or a holding measure, would make a real difference. It would be a meaningful change to the law that would give a real tool to the police and the law enforcement authorities of this nation. I hope the Minister does take a call. I have set out what I think is a sound case in principle for a change that would make a genuine difference to our criminal law. My proposal would enable the officials to work over the summer to produce legislation that does not have to be 100 pages long and would establish some basic rules that would give a new way of detecting offending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI take the Government at its word in some respects. When it says it is serious about crime, I would like to think, on behalf of all New Zealanders, that it is. This would be one way the Government could actually\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002252914ec9f9ce47f28bcc304649bb967e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Why would you believe it on that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203ee1a17bb8249199897e0c7052616bb\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP\u003C/span\u003E: This would be one way the Government could demonstrate that. It could demonstrate it by way of action, as opposed to words. As I said in my speech in the second reading debate, we have seen big increases in crime, and particularly in violent crime. I want the Government to say that it understands it has not done enough in the last 4 years, that the Sentencing Act ended up becoming something of a damp squib, that the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill should be an interim measure only, and that a meaningful measure is required. I suggest to the Minister that if he introduces such legislation to the House in 2004, he would get consent from the Opposition parties. He would get consent from New Zealand First, from the ACT party, and from the United Future party. There was one party only that I did not mention, which was the Green Party. All other parties in this Parliament are serious about crime, and are willing to cast their vote for a proper measure that recognises that changes in technology enable the sorts of measures that are necessary to get on top of crime. So I say to the Minister that when we on the Opposition side of the Chamber ask for a considered, fresh approach to crime, we are not doing it just for the purposes of filibustering, but are suggesting it as a serious measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI understand that the Minister is likely to vote against the amendment. That is why I have suggested that he take the idea to the officials and produce new legislation\u2014a new bill. I ask that he give the select committee a serious opportunity to ask whether the world is different from the way it was in 1995. Have things changed since 1998? Is this new technology moving on? Is it time to take a fresh approach and say that yes, the technology has matured? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EOur understanding is clear. DNA is the new fingerprint. Let us have that form of database, rather than one that rests on a technology that is now well over a century old: that of taking fingerprints.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022524864d043e34ee5974524e4ba2159cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022524864d043e34ee5974524e4ba2159cf\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to follow my colleague Dr Mapp, because I do want to commend his amendment to the Minister in the chair, the Hon Phil Goff. I would like the Minister to take a call. He knows that we support this bill. It makes absolute sense to support the bill, no matter that criticism has been levelled at the Minister for the length of time that he has taken to bring it to the House. However, I would have hoped that the 4-year delay, in the context of the advances that have been made in technology and of the huge upward sweep of serious crime in this country in recent years, might have influenced him to seriously consider extending the provisions of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI indicated in my second reading speech that although there is a view that DNA testing swabs should be applied to all people who are arrested, like my colleague I certainly do not go as far as that. There is the underlying principle of balancing the rights of the individual against the measures we take to protect the security and safety of law-abiding citizens. But some consideration by the Minister to applying this technology to those arrested on charges that are punishable by a term of imprisonment, I do not think goes too far in the current environment. No doubt the Minister will take a call and explain why he possibly will not support the amendment proposed by my colleague. However, Dr Mapp will have the support, I have no doubt, of all parties in this House other than the Greens. The Greens obviously want the balance to be so weighted that they would rather see law-abiding citizens at the mercy of heinous offenders than be serious about addressing crime in this country. So, as I say, my colleague\u2019s proposed amendment is a good one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI would go further than Dr Mapp, and suggest to the Minister that perhaps he would consider\u2014maybe even over the next 12 hours, if he will not do so now\u2014whether it is possible to have that amendment included in the bill, so that we can deal with it now. We would not then have to come back and tinker with the legislation after Christmas, or have a new bill after Christmas, as my colleague says. Perhaps we are able to deal with the amendment now, because the speeches made by my colleagues on the Opposition side of the House are clearly in favour of an extension to the use of this technology, and there may be a way that it can be done before the end of the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003ESuch a change is clearly supported by the police, who actually suggested that the Law and Order Committee go further than it did. They are at the forefront of fighting crime. They are the people in whom we vest the safety of New Zealanders. The police are the people who are given the burdensome task, the huge task, of fighting rising levels of serious crime with, unfortunately, limited tools in their tool kit. Although they are, no doubt, very pleased that this legislation will now see its way through the Committee, they clearly consider that their task would be far better enhanced and made a lot easier if they were given more tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u002279e5e583a6f54d49830fa6450ce97a8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002279e5e583a6f54d49830fa6450ce97a8c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to reply briefly to the points raised by members. Dr Mapp seemed to suggest I should have changed this legislation 4 years ago. Perhaps I could remind him that at the time I became the Minister, the legislation was not yet 4 years old. It was a new bill. It was passed by that member\u2019s Government and came into effect in 1996. I think he was even a member of the select committee that considered the bill. I recall sitting on that committee, and the then National Government was adamant that the bill should not be extended to cover even burglary. I had a different view of that, because in 1996 burglary was running at a rate of 90,000 reported offences a year\u201490,000. I knew, and the select committee heard evidence, that burglary is a precursor offence to more serious offending. There is a clear link between burglary and serious sexual and violent crimes. That is why very soon after becoming Minister, I put the policy process in train to extend the legislation to cover burglary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis Government has done an extraordinary job in getting burglaries down from 90,000 a year to 60,000. That is an extraordinary drop in offending rates, and we want to make further progress still in that area. Nevertheless, I believe that burglary should be an offence for which there can be compulsion orders for DNA sampling, and that is why I brought this bill in. I listened carefully to the submissions on the bill that were made to the select committee, and I agreed to take it even further so that all offences imprisonable by 7 years or more would be covered. All serious offences are now covered, plus some less serious offences. The New Zealand Police Association put forward three precursor offences to burglary, so we have put those in, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EClearly, in legislation of this nature, given the time and the money expended, not only in taking DNA but also in processing it, the focus should go where the priorities lie. The priorities are in terms of serious crimes, and that is why this bill has remarkably expanded the numbers of people who, as suspects, will be required to give DNA samples, and I applaud that. The country applauds that. All parties but one in Parliament will vote for it. We have done that job, and I can tell the member that the number of DNA samples\u2014blood samples\u2014taken in the last 2 years alone has more than doubled. So this Government is doing more than ever before\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022919af9edde174608a9c5ea0336cbb461\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: You haven\u2019t answered the point I am making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022563b7c4255b34e958644a52b9a9e8113\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Mapp should listen rather than just talk. He asked questions, and I am about to answer them. He asked whether the world has changed since 1995. It has indeed, and I will ask members to share with me the graph I have before me, which is taken from the New Zealand crime statistics for 2002-03, from the office of the Police Commissioner. I will show it to the Committee. It graphs crime statistics between 1995 and 2003 per 10,000 New Zealanders, and, lo and behold, shows that the incidence of crime since 1995 has gone down. That is according to the Police Commissioner. So the member was right: the world has changed. Not only have crime figures gone down but, I am proud to say, according to police figures, crime resolution rates have gone up. Crime is down, resolution rates are up, and there is more use of DNA. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis legislation dramatically expands the use of DNA, but we have set its use at a level that most New Zealanders would regard as sensible. Any serious offence is now covered by this legislation. DNA samples can be required from anybody in this country who commits a serious crime. Most New Zealanders think that is sensible. The National Party in Opposition is much braver than it was in Government; it wants to go much further now. This bill already goes much further than that Government was prepared to go 4 years before I became the Minister of Justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u0022a50e9f7434a34e768a93f31d83a6b5b6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a50e9f7434a34e768a93f31d83a6b5b6\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E As previously mentioned in this debate, New Zealand First supports this bill. There is not a lot more that I would like to say, but it would be wrong of me to mention that New Zealand First did not have some concerns with this bill as it traversed the select committee. One concern that we promoted was people being DNA-tested on arrest, but, as we have heard today, that was overturned for the reasons mentioned in the Chamber by the Minister. New Zealand First pushed the second issue\u2014the issue of burglary\u2014in the select committee, and we are pleased that it has now become part of the bill. We believe that burglaries are an apprenticeship to crime and we are therefore pleased that the bill addresses the issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EJust recently in the Wairarapa, a heinous crime was committed in respect of little Coral Burrows. I was involved in the search, which for me lasted approximately 6 hours. I believe that DNA will probably play a very important role in supplying further evidence in that case. Even though someone has already admitted to it, he has yet to be convicted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EDNA was mentioned here today by one of our colleagues with regard to the drug P. Again, I believe that DNA will play a very important role in the fight against that drug. The positives out of this bill are that it will lower the crime rate\u2014or make criminals aware that they will not get away so easily in respect of some of those heinous crimes\u2014and there will be a large cost-saving to the police, so that their resources can be spent in other areas to combat other crimes. It will also prevent the locking up a large number of staff in investigations, as is currently happening in solving some of these crimes. Just recently, something like 20 detectives were put into the Wairarapa to try to find that little girl, Coral Burrows. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003ESome very positive things are coming out of this bill, and New Zealand First supports it. It will curb heinous crimes and capture within its provisions those criminals who may still be in prison and who have yet to be DNA-tested for some crimes that are still unsolved out there in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1fe22da47e14031ad5d8acd9c74eb6a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1fe22da47e14031ad5d8acd9c74eb6a\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I very much appreciated the Minister rising to his feet and endeavouring to answer my colleagues\u2019 questions. However, I do not think he addressed the issue raised, both at the Committee stage and in the second reading speeches, of DNA tests being the modern equivalent of the fingerprint identification process. I would certainly appreciate\u2014as would many who are listening\u2014hearing the Minister\u2019s views on that. Again, I have to agree with my learned colleague Dr Mapp that, in essence, when we talk about things having moved on, that is one of the areas where they have\u2014that is to say, whereas in the old days the fingerprint was the main means of identification, today its equivalent, the DNA test, is, and I think most people accept that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIf that is the case, and we on this side of the Chamber certainly believe it is, then why is it such a big call\u2014as it seems to be in the Minister\u2019s mind, and in the Government\u2019s position\u2014that such testing is not extended to all those who are arrested, say, on charges punishable by imprisonment? Why, in 2003, does that seem such a big call? There will come a time, given the convenience of the DNA test, that fingerprinting will probably fall into misuse. I ask my honourable colleague whether that would be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b4e1640433046509cf073acd4b98b4c\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207ab5f44e297440d9b7204501b36380f\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: So, as I say, we regard DNA testing as the equivalent of fingerprinting, and, in a very short space of time, that process will be seen as being out of date. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI would be very grateful if the Minister would get to his feet and give us the benefit of his thinking on that issue. The issues of civil liberties and of the rights of individuals disappeared when their fingerprints could be taken, anyway. That is the point. If we now have a modern form of identification that is clearly simpler and quicker to use, then why should we not move to that point? The other thing I flag is the issue of who should administer the test, and we certainly have some views on that. We do not think the legislation goes far enough in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EOne of the scheduled offences that should be included in the bill relates to peeping and peering. There is a very good reason for that. That offence is regarded by many as being a precursor to sexual violence. Why would we not include in the legislation the men who do that? They are slime-bags, anyway. Anybody who indulges in peeping and peering deserves to fall within the authority of this legislation. It is not good enough that they do not. They are slime-bags, and every tool available to the kit should be used. Mita Ririnui frowns, but I say that he should think about those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u002258f877145d6a4ecf901bfdbddf8a8cdf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002258f877145d6a4ecf901bfdbddf8a8cdf\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E The reason I am taking a call is that the Minister said he was addressing the concerns I raised when I said that as matter of principle\u2014and I recognise that it is an issue of principle, and I can concede that the Government may not wish to totally overturn its thinking about the bill by one two-line clause\u2014why is it that all persons charged with offences capable of carrying a term of imprisonment should not give a DNA sample? I presume that the Minister thought he had answered me, but he did not. It is quite a direct, straightforward proposition. Did he say that yes, the ministry will look at the proposition, and that if it seems a reasonable proposition then he will introduce legislation next year? Did he answer my simple question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI listened for over 5 minutes, and I did not hear a single, direct statement that the Ministry of Justice would be directed to examine that basic proposition. I did not put the proposition forward without a lot of thought. I have thought about the issue over the years, and the Minister well knows that I have referred to DNA as being the modern fingerprint. I ask the Government, with all its resources\u2014those hundreds of bureaucrats, paid by hardworking, law-abiding New Zealand taxpayers\u2014why it would not undertake the research necessary to consider the proposition. That is the proposition that was put to the Minister. Instead, he wittered on about what had happened in 1996 and 1998, and all those sorts of things, and about the huge schedule. He was, as the Speaker says, addressing the question, not answering the question. So often, on this side of the Chamber, we have heard Ministers address questions, but not answer them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EI believe that I put a reasonable proposition to the Minister. I was not making a political point, as such. I put a reasonable proposition for the Ministry of Justice to consider. If it thinks fit after all its deliberations, then a bill could be introduced to the House in 2004 that would embody that proposition. Obviously it would replace the 1996 legislation, and obviously it would replace the amendment bill of 2002. But that is the way the law develops, particularly when we are talking about a new form of technology, which everyone now considers an effective form of identification. My colleague referred to the fact that in a few years time we will think of fingerprint databases as quaint and old-fashioned. We are asking the Government to consider the proposition that it should look at DNA as the new technology that would essentially replace fingerprinting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EMy final point is that the Minister, thinking that he had the killer fact, said that crime is down since 1995. He was not prepared to dig beneath the surface of the fact, because he knows that the crime that concerns New Zealanders\u2014violent crime\u2014is up. Can the Minister get on his feet in this Chamber and deny that violent crime has gone up in the last year? He knows that is the case. He knows that violent crime has increased across the board. He might say that burglaries are down, and he is right. Burglaries are down over an extended period of time, not due to police surveillance operations, but largely due to the fact that the public have had to take their own measures and install burglar alarms. Now we can hardly see a house in New Zealand without a burglar alarm. That is why crime is down.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00225c1ecc43be524837ac8cc017e98eedf8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c1ecc43be524837ac8cc017e98eedf8\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I think it is important\u2014so that the public of New Zealand knows just how serious, or not, the Government and the Minister are about violent crime\u2014that we mention again two or three of those areas the Government was not prepared to address for fear of upsetting those who came to the select committee, and whose primary angle was the issue of civil liberties and protection of individual rights. My colleague and I have said enough times already, that we certainly understand the need to balance the issue of civil liberties, and the rights of the individual, against the need to properly equip the police. As I said earlier to the Minister, he should tell it to the public. Tell the public that the Government is serious about violent crime, because the public all know\u2014they see it daily and weekly on their television sets\u2014that violent crime is up. Tell them, and the victims, that the Government is serious about addressing violent crime. Tell them, because in the end\u2014while the Minister might stand and answer our queries, and maybe make light of them if he wants to\u2014the public of New Zealand have the right to expect that members of this Parliament will discharge their responsibilities in an honourable way, and take all possible steps to make sure that public security and safety are being properly addressed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIncluding offences punishable by 3 years imprisonment was recommended by the Police Association. The select committee and Government members considered that these offences were not serious enough to warrant such an intrusion on personal liberties. Government members on the committee considered that it was inappropriate to include other suggested offences, which included peeping and peering\u2014they were not considered serious enough. Government members did not believe there was sufficient evidence to support the belief that peeping and peering would advance to more serious sexual offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWhere do they get off? Where are they coming from? I tell them to get into the real world. It is known that such offences are often precursors to serious sexual offending. Who wants peepers and peerers standing outside bedrooms, peeping and peering? I certainly do not, and neither does any reasonable, law-abiding citizen out there in good old New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe other issue was that of DNA sampling. It was not recommended that all offenders be DNA-sampled on arrest. The Government members on the committee considered that to be outside the scope of the bill. That is a cop-out. If we are serious in this Chamber about looking after the safety and security of law-abiding New Zealanders, then we should be serious about considering what, in my view, in the current environment, are serious submissions. That is not to be. The reality is, as we have already said, that violent crime is up. The Minister can take statistics and make them sound as if the Government is doing all it can to address the issue of violent crime\u2014well, it is not. The figures show that violent crime is up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI say to the M\u0101ori members on the other side of the Chamber that it would be great if they could take a call and tell us why they agree with every single thing their Government does, even when a lot of it does not make sense. A lot of it is just too modest for words and does not really address the issue that a lot of victims of violent crime are our people\u2014M\u0101ori people. I say to Minister Tamihere\u2014who is great at coming to the Chamber and rarely taking a call\u2014that rather than wittering away over there\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f3281d35eae74ad287fdcc522574e52b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f3281d35eae74ad287fdcc522574e52b\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Both Dr Mapp and Mrs te Heuheu have raised the question of violent crime. This bill is about compulsion orders for particular offences. What seems to have gone right over their heads is that every violent crime now subjects the offender or the suspect to a compulsory DNA test if he or she does not give consent. So the issue of violent crime has been dealt with firmly by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMrs te Heuheu raised the matter of peeping and peering. I presume that Mrs te Heuheu was not on the Law and Order Committee, because otherwise she would have been aware of the information that was given to that select committee. She may not know, for example, that peeping and peering is regarded as such a serious crime in this country that it is a non-imprisonable offence and it is subject to a maximum fine of $500. We are talking about taking compulsorily DNA samples before a person has been convicted. The presumption of innocence still exists. We have considered it to be sufficiently important that where the alleged offence is serious, a compulsion order can be gained for particular offences, but not non-imprisonable offences and not one that is regarded under the law, and has been by successive Governments, as being a minor offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhat motivated this bill was my strong belief that those who commit burglary will go on to commit serious sexual and violent offences, and the statistics given to the select committee back that up. Forty-five percent of violent offenders and 25 percent of sexual offenders in that group had a prior conviction for burglary. There is a clear linkage between burglary and going on to more serious offences of a violent and sexual nature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThen we looked at peeping and peering. How did peeping and peering compare in regard to the causal link between that offence, and going on to commit a serious one? Two percent went on to commit a serious offence. Ninety-eight percent of peepers and peerers did not go on to commit a violent or sexual offence. There were not very many of them\u2014it is only 76 people. It is marginal. We are talking about burglary as an offence here. There are 60,000 recorded burglaries a year. That is 60,000 offences\u2014that makes a huge difference to the use of those DNA samples for crime investigation and as an evidential tool. The member has taken three calls and wittered on about peeping and peering, when there is no causal link and there are 76 of them. So for God\u2019s sake, let us move on to something a little bit more serious than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E I come to Dr Mapp\u2019s point. He asked why we should not take DNA samples as we take fingerprints. The member may be aware that fingerprints are taken once a person is arrested. We are talking here about a bill that allows samples to be taken before a person is arrested; but whether before or after arrest, a person is presumed innocent. Once convicted, all of those people can be required to put their DNA on a database. But before a person is arrested, the presumption of innocence prevails, particularly when the crime is at the lesser end of offending. This bill is about making compulsion orders available for offences where they are somewhat serious offences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00228e6094f36bb34faca75040f94793cf14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e6094f36bb34faca75040f94793cf14\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that the ACT party does not have a member on the Law and Order Committee, so we have been very interested to hear what has been going on at the committee, and some of the submissions that were presented. I take exception to what the Minister has just been saying. He has been trying to back up the fact that he says his Government is tough on crime, when everybody knows that the Labour Government is soft on crime. If you look at what laws they have passed in this House\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6f74d3cef24c9c87022f7c769371e3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member cannot bring the Chair into the debate. She has said: \u201CIf you look\u201D, which is referring to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c22b8bee5eb411abe4920e6b94f1f70\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. If anybody looks at the laws that have been passed in this House, they will know that the most disgraceful legislation of all has been the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act. We now have sentences that can be reduced down to one-third, so if somebody gets 9 years, he is out in 3. On top of that, we have serious offenders who are on home detention. We have people sentenced to community work and they do not even turn up. That was the big revelation over the weekend. They are sentenced to 100 hours of community work, and what happens? They do not turn up and the poor probation officers have a problem on their hands. But does this Government seem to care? No. It talks tough but it does nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI want to talk a little bit about DNA sampling, because DNA technology is the most effective crime-fighting tool ever invented. We should be expanding DNA technology to the widest possible level. I want the Minister to take a call to answer a couple of very, very important questions. With all this DNA stuff going on, what is the Government going to do about the critical shortage of workers at Environmental Science and Research? We already know that there is a year-long waiting list for samples from burglary and so on to be analysed by that institute. That means that the case has to be put on hold for a year, people are on bail for a year, and the police cannot actually get on with finishing the job, because of the backlog at Environmental Science and Research. When it comes to worse crime, like methamphetamine-related crime, the cops know they have to wait for 2 years before those labs will be investigated by Environmental Science and Research. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI am sure the Minister will tell us that the Government has more scientists coming out from England and so on, but I want him to tell us whether the Government is going to give the police specific ring-fenced funding for DNA testing. Under the points in this bill, DNA testing will be much more comprehensive. The police at the moment have to find that from within their budgets, and we are talking about a police force that is still understaffed, under-resourced, and over-stressed, with a Government that is squeezing police funding every single year, compared with what used to happen, as a percentage of all Government spending. The Minister can shake his head but if he looks at the figures he will see that that is the case. The real numbers have gone up but the percentage of Government spending has gone down since Labour has been in power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI want to reflect on some of the advantages of DNA technology. The information I have comes from the Home Office in Britain, where they have comprehensive funding for DNA technology and competitive work in the actual sampling of DNA testing so that the analysis is done not only by a Government agency but by the private sector, which I think is the model that New Zealand needs to duplicate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe Home Office knows that if burglary does not have DNA samples associated with it, only 15 percent of those cases are solved, whereas with DNA 58 percent are solved. As far as non-burglary offences are concerned, if there is no DNA only 10 percent of those cases are solved; but if there is DNA, 54 percent of those crimes are solved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESo it goes on. Regarding property theft we find that if there is no DNA only 6 percent of those crimes are solved, and with DNA evidence 51 percent of those crimes are solved. The numbers are overwhelming. DNA solves crimes, but we have to have a Government that has a commitment to solving crime and is prepared to resource the police properly so that those crimes can be solved in a timely fashion. In England the DNA samples take 2 weeks to come back; here it is 2 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225bfd46ed6e6a417789f29ba3bd566a95\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E Very briefly, in response to that member, there was a problem with Environmental Science and Research because of staff turnover and an unexpected increase in work volume. She will be pleased to know that the number of staff in this area has now been increased. Environmental Science and Research aims to clear the backlog by June 2004. In fact, in the last 12 months it has completed 3,000 analyses, whereas its projected target was only 2,500. On the question of the police, we have the highest number of police officers ever and the biggest budget ever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00228450296a16134516888c624c02039a11\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228450296a16134516888c624c02039a11\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (Whip\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have to say that was an absolutely pathetic response from the Minister of Justice. He got up and read from some notes that somebody had given him, without knowing what he was talking about. I want him to put on the record how many new staff are coming into Environmental Science and Research. We know that institute has been woefully understaffed and overstressed. People were leaving because of the stress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EHe is telling us that all crime samples will now be completed by June 2004. Can he put on the record that all methamphetamine cases will be analysed by 2004? Is he prepared to put that on the record? I know that the police will be absolutely delighted to know that an end is in sight. At the moment they ask themselves why they are doing their job, why they are busting these labs, when they know that they will have to wait for 2 years for results while the criminals go free and set up new labs all over the place, while more methamphetamine is being put on the streets, while more people are being hooked on methamphetamine, and while there is more violent crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EIt is this Minister\u2019s Government that is responsible for all of that. Rather than giving wishy-washy, hopeless responses, the Minister should put on the record exactly what he means. If he cannot do that, then let us ask some members of the Government to stand up and put on the record what they intend to do in this area.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThis whole area of DNA testing and solving crime goes to the very heart of what New Zealanders expect from a Government. The maintenance of law and order is a core responsibility of Government. I can tell the Minister in the chair, Phil Goff, that right now there are people all over this country who are afraid. They are afraid of being pushed around by thugs on the street, of being burgled in their homes, of being victims of home invasions, and so on, and now they are even more afraid that somebody down the road will get himself or herself high on P and come and do something ridiculous to them\u2014something dangerous and horrible. The Government\u2019s response to what is a major crisis in this country has been absolutely pathetic. [Interruption] Mr Tamihere can laugh. He should go into M\u0101ori communities, where he will find that that possibility is one of their biggest concerns, yet all he does is sit there and smirk and laugh.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ETo get to the point, it is all very well for a Government to pass a law that makes it seem as though it is getting tough on something, but this bill is incredibly complicated, as other speakers who looked at it during the select committee process have said. It is terribly complicated. It should be simple, and it should also be resourced properly. I want the Minister to tell us exactly what he means in terms of resourcing, because what we have heard from the Government is a whole lot of wishy-washy stuff that makes it sound as if it is getting tough on crime, when actually it is not. If this bill worked properly, it would solve hundreds of thousands of crimes in this country. But it is not just a matter of the law; it is the resources, and it is having the right number of police in the right place at the right time who are able to do the job\u2014it is a whole raft of things. The Government may think it seems tough by passing a law, but that is simply not good enough. It has to make sure that all the bits of the jigsaw puzzle are put in place so that the police can do their job effectively, catch criminals, and hold them to account, and so that we have a sentencing regime that puts people in prison, if they deserve it, for the whole period of their sentence. Instead, we have a hopeless Government that allows criminals to get out of prison after serving only a third of their time. We do not have a proper regime in New Zealand that gets tough on law and order. This bill could be the start of something new, but I suspect that it will not be resourced properly, and the police will not be able to use it properly, because they will not be given the tools.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI reiterate that DNA is an incredibly important tool. I suspect that if the police were able to go through all unsolved crimes, using new DNA technology and matching samples with samples from every single prisoner in prison at the moment, and samples from all the other serious offenders who have submitted DNA samples\u2014if the police were given the money to do that\u2014then many, many serious crimes would be solved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022e7884b0148d94a31b82f26f2e407f82a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e7884b0148d94a31b82f26f2e407f82a\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a very brief call to correct what I believe is a mistaken viewpoint put across by the Minister of Justice. Essentially, the legislation applies to the taking of DNA samples from people where the charge carries a sentence of 7 years or more. The bulk of offences are in that category. Everyone agrees with that. No one disputes that. That is not the issue. The issue is the taking of samples from all offences subject to imprisonment. The Minister absolutely refuses to answer that question. Will he direct his ministry to examine the proposition that everyone who is charged with an offence, who is arrested, be required to provide a DNA sample where there is the prospect of a sentence of imprisonment? That is a much wider category of offence than is provided in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt comes back to the simple proposition that DNA is the modern fingerprint. We have asked and asked the Minister to address that simple question. Instead, he evades it. One can only assume that he evades it because he might be embarrassed by the answer. Alternatively, he may be evading it because he is not willing to ask his officials to do the serious work, as he knows we are right and he does not want to be shown up. We on this side of the Committee ask the Government to think again, take a realistic approach, and answer our assertion that it talks tough but acts soft. If the Government does not put that proposition to the ministry, then we are entitled to say it is an example of a Government that talks tough but, when it comes to the crunch, acts soft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 159 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228cbf0ce906b24a129c2f3a2bfd88930b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to section 4(3) in clause 7 has been ruled out of order because it is inconsistent with a previous decision of the Committee, and the Minister has an amendment to clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Dr Wayne Mapp to insert new clause 7A be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003Eto insert the following new clause:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E7A\tThis Act applies to all offences which can carry a penalty of imprisonment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022258f6286a90549219f9262f873169d1b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000612\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 21 be agreed to: \u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000613\u0022\u003Eto insert in new section 39(1), after the word \u201Cpolice\u201D, the words \u201Ca police officer of or above the rank of sergeant\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221f077bb1043e46219211e711348eab0e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000614\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to clause 25 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000615\u0022\u003Eto amend new section 49A(1) of the principal Act by adding the following new paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000616\u0022\u003E(c)\ta police officer who has received appropriate training. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229b5583cd240644fea7b519416c4c8ba7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000617\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to schedule 1A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000618\u0022\u003Eto insert in Part 1, in the appropriate place, the words \u201CPeeping and peering\u201D. \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223a44391421cc4b548da7b2c4b35a7c35\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000619\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Tony Ryall to schedule 1A be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000620\u0022\u003Eto insert in Part 2, in the appropriate place, the words \u201CPeeping and peering\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022baa4df871ebf40f986c4243e092b8717\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000621\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 40 and schedules, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000622\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fa5e379c04eb447a84770acb652ce3bd\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00220007fd61e533412c86bf96b678d4ae4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220007fd61e533412c86bf96b678d4ae4c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill be now read a third time. This is an important bill, and I have no doubt that the ability of the police to fight serious crime, including burglary, will be greatly enhanced by this legislation. The bill is a comprehensive overhaul of the Criminal Investigations (Blood Samples) Act of 1995. That Act has served the police well and has provided a sound framework for obtaining blood samples for DNA purposes to assist with police investigations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EHowever, DNA technology has advanced since 1995. It is becoming possible to extract accurate profiles from ever-smaller quantities of material. As the technology has advanced, the increasing importance and potential of DNA as a crime-fighting tool has become more broadly recognised and understood. It is important that the law and procedures surrounding the taking and use of DNA samples keep pace with new technology, to ensure that the potential of DNA is realised. That is what the bill does. Mouth or buccal samples are now able to provide DNA profiles of the same quality as those that blood samples provide. Buccal swabs are a less invasive and less expensive alternative way of getting DNA. It is time that the law recognised this fact and allowed the police to use such samples for evidential purposes. The bill makes that change by allowing buccal samples to be taken from suspects as an alternative to blood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EWhen the original Act was passed the DNA-sampling regime did not apply to burglary suspects. That means that currently the police cannot compel a suspect to provide a DNA profile to match against the burglary scene sample, and that has resulted in known burglars escaping punishment. This bill rectifies that situation. Burglary is a serious crime. It is highly invasive, and often a precursor to much more serious violent and sexual offending. Labour campaigned on a promise to allow the use of DNA as an investigative tool to cover burglary, and this bill delivers on that commitment. The incidence of burglary has already dropped significantly since the Government came into office, due largely to the substantial investment in police numbers, and the police budget in the last 4 years. Resolution rates are up. There is no doubt that allowing the use of DNA samples from burglary suspects will further improve that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESimilarly, the potential of DNA as an investigative tool in a wide range of circumstances is also reflected in a broad extension of the schedule of relevant offences to cover all offences punishable by at least 7 years\u2019 imprisonment, and attempts or conspiracies to commit relevant offences. The bill also introduces new procedures into the principal Act that largely reflect the move since 1995 of DNA sampling into the mainstream as an investigative tool.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EPerhaps the most significant of those is the new procedure governing the gaining of compulsory samples for the DNA databank, under Part III of the Act. Where previously the police had to apply to a judge for a databank compulsion order, under the new regime the police will simply issue a compulsion notice requiring a convicted person to give a sample for the databank. The offender has the safeguard of the notice having to be approved by a commissioned senior police officer, and of being able to challenge the notice in the court. The presumption, therefore, of the new regime is that the police should be able to take databank samples from those convicted of serious offences, as standard procedure. This will result in considerable streamlining of procedure, and, consequently, savings in time and in money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also contains an important provision that will allow, retrospectively, those still in prison for serious offences\u2014that is, those offences contained in the schedule of the original Act\u2014to have samples taken compulsorily for the databank. Parliament should never enter lightly into retrospectivity of a bill\u2019s application. However, in the limited circumstances contained in this bill retrospectivity is justified. The original Act had no retrospective application, which means that samples from serious violent and sexual offenders in prison in 1995\u2014many of whom are still there, such was the seriousness of their offending\u2014have never been entered into the databank. This retrospective provision, which comes within the provisions of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, will cover many of New Zealand\u2019s most serious offenders, and it is vitally important that their DNA is recorded. I only wish the National Government had had that foresight when it passed the Act in 1995.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also places new procedures around the taking of DNA samples from children, should a child be suspected of certain indictable offences. The regime is a consent-only regime where the police request, with a parent\u2019s consent, that a child provides a buccal sample. This will allow the police in appropriate circumstances to use a DNA profile obtained from a child suspect in support of an application for a Family Court declaration that the child is in need of care and protection on a specified ground\u2014that is, because of his or her offending.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EA raft of other amendments are made to the principal Act as a result of the bill. These amendments will collectively greatly improve and streamline the operation of the Act. Some people have expressed civil liberties concerns about this bill. It is important that we recognise that the taking and retaining of bodily samples do represent some encroachment on civil rights. But as with all investigative tools, it is necessary to balance those rights with the potential to use such samples to solve and prevent crime\u2014to prevent victimisation, and protect innocent New Zealanders from the traumatic consequences of others\u2019 offending. I am satisfied that this legislation strikes an appropriate balance. Suspect compulsion and databanking are limited to serious offences. DNA will not be taken and kept from law-abiding New Zealanders or even those who might make a one-off, minor transgression. The retrospective application of the bill is limited to those most serious offenders who are still in prison. This is an appropriate balance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis legislation represents a comprehensive overhaul of the 1995 Act. It updates the Act to reflect that DNA is now a vital part of mainstream policing and has the potential to solve a great deal more serious crime. One of these serious crimes is burglary\u2014a crime excluded from the suspect provisions in the original 1995 Act. In now extending the Act to cover this crime, a pre-election commitment by the Labour Party is fulfilled. This bill cements the place of DNA as a powerful crime-fighting and investigative tool. It greatly streamlines the procedures around the taking and use of DNA. More serious criminals will be convicted, more historic crime will be cleared, and burglary resolution rates will improve, as a result of this bill. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u00227ceadb82773d4ff4b55b947cb88dc588\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ceadb82773d4ff4b55b947cb88dc588\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to take a call on the third reading of this bill. National, of course, supports the bill\u2014we made that clear to the Minister at the commencement of the Committee stage. We certainly recognise the advances that have been made in DNA technology in the last 10 years. As I mentioned earlier, just prior to going out of Government in 1999, National had already put a considerable amount of work in place to update this area of activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Minister said that the ability of the police would be greatly enhanced by the provisions of this bill. Of course, he is right; we do not dispute that fact. However, the very fact that the police wanted more than has been provided suggests that they do not think the bill goes far enough. After all, they are in the front line in the fight against violent crime, and National would have supported further extensions to this legislation. Those were indicated during the Committee stage, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAs I said, it is proper that the House supports this legislation. It is of some concern that the Greens do not. In an environment where violent crime is up, it baffles belief that there is a party that purports to stand here for the rights of New Zealanders, but does not support legislation that enhances the State\u2019s ability to ensure the security and safety of law-abiding New Zealanders. It baffles belief that there is a party in this House that does not support this bill. I would be interested to see Green members trying on a public platform to justify why they do not want to help the police in their fight against violent crime in particular, and why they are happy to be associated with a sort of flim-flam approach to justice. Most New Zealanders would be baffled, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThis legislation takes account of modern techniques and advances in technology over the last few years. National says that in time DNA technology will replace fingerprinting. We do not really understand why the Government was shy about extending the use of this technology even more. We in Parliament ought to show the public that we are serious about their safety and security, and about tackling serious crime. The real test of whether the Minister has achieved what he says he set out to achieve by this piece of legislation will only be known by those who will unfortunately continue to be victims of serious crime, and be fearful in their homes at night because of the levels of violence that have escalated in this country over the last few years. They are the people of concern here, not whether some political party sounds as if it is smarter than another one\u2014not at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EIn that context, we support this legislation, and the Minister has widespread support in the House. But he should have been bolder and shown that he cared about the safety of New Zealanders, and over the last 4 years he has had the opportunity to do so. He certainly took the opportunity to update the 1995 legislation, but we think he was not bold enough, and we are not on our own in that sense\u2014the police and the Police Association sought further extensions still. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI want to pick up on a theme that was raised by a colleague earlier. This is a Government that talks tough on crime, but in the 1996-99 period\u2014when I was first in Parliament and the Minister was in Opposition\u2014he had a lot to say about the approach of the National Government and what he would do when he was the Minister of Justice. This has been his chance, and he has not taken the opportunity to show the Government\u2019s seriousness in respect of violent crime. That is the legacy he leaves, particularly in the context of the rise in the use of the drug P. Whether the police ever get on top of the problem or not, mark my words\u2014we will see a severe escalation in criminal offending because of this dreaded curse. The drug P is everywhere, and although the Government has taken steps to address this scourge, in our view, those measures have not been adequate. Combined with its pussyfooting around with regard to the extension of the DNA technology that is the subject of this bill, it is unfortunate that we will witness worse to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E That is an awful thing to have to say, because as parliamentarians we come in here hoping to make a difference, and it is a shame that when we have the opportunity to do that we are not bolder. It is necessary to strike a balance with civil liberties, but the levels of offending in society are such that that balance, in my view, must shift. There is a level of criminal violent offending that is absolutely ghastly and absolutely not acceptable. I suggest that we will be back here in 2 or 3 years\u2019 time putting in tougher measures\u2014certainly tougher than this Government is prepared to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EAlthough this bill certainly updates the 1995 legislation, it does not go far enough. The Minister talks tough, but when it comes to the crunch, his actions are soft, and that is not good enough. The public of New Zealand will judge what sort of record he has in this matter. It certainly does not match the harking and the barking he did when he was in Opposition. He has had the chance to do something really bold and innovative, and he has lost that chance. None the less, National recognises the importance of the legislation as it is, and supports it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI would ask the Minister again to seriously consider getting his officials after the Christmas break to consider the amendment proposed by my colleague Dr Wayne Mapp, and see whether we can convince the public of New Zealand that as parliamentarians we do care about their safety, we do care about their security, and we are prepared to treat them in the serious manner they deserve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022 data-id=\u0022a806d4609e2f4f4c966436086db30298\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a806d4609e2f4f4c966436086db30298\u0022\u003EEDWIN PERRY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports this bill. Obviously it was one of the three issues we promoted during the last election, and we are proud to be part of the Law and Order Committee. New Zealand First supported the amendments put up by Mr Ryall, because our belief was that those amendments would strengthen the bill where necessary. But when we come to a position of power, we will no doubt be looking at them again. Expense should not get in the way of good legislation in the fight against the heinous crimes that have been committed, and back-tracking on some of these criminals who are already in prison, but have yet to be convicted of a crime, will be available through the DNA tool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EAlthough DNA makes a strong contribution against crime, we should not forget to focus on crime prevention. I believe that this tool will prevent criminal activity. Criminals will now know that crime will not be so easy to get away with. New Zealand First would like to think that all criminals would see this bill as a tool to deter any future criminal activity, which I mentioned previously. As we have seen, DNA has become a vital crime-fighting tool around the world, and now it will become an important tool for our own police force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EThe police submitters played a very important role in putting this bill together, but I would like to thank the staff who also put this legislation together, and who were very helpful to myself as the lone star for New Zealand First on that select committee. I would also like to thank other members across the political divide in helping to shape this very positive bill. New Zealand will be a lot safer now that this bill will be strengthened, and it will provide comfort for all New Zealanders in Aotearoa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003EI just want to finish off\u2014because I think everything has been said from New Zealand First\u2014by saying that the public are crying out to feel safe on the streets and in their own homes. Criminals will think twice about their actions when they know that they will be caught.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00223b552c19fac5405f9cc7fd670916a479\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223b552c19fac5405f9cc7fd670916a479\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in this third reading to say that the ACT party is supporting the bill because at least it is a step in the right direction. But it is a pretty pathetic response by this Government to introduce a bill on 28 May 2002, and almost 1\u00BD years later have a 25-page Supplementary Order Paper, which had to be tabled during the Committee stage, and then admit during the debate that the bill does not go as far as it maybe should because it does not do all the things that it could have done. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EFor example, the bill deals only with the DNA sampling for people who have a conviction that could result in 7 years in prison. Yet most New Zealanders would say: \u201CHang on, somebody who has committed an offence and ends up in jail should have his or her DNA put on a national DNA database.\u201D That makes sense. So a person would know that if he or she ended up doing something bad and ended up in jail, his or her DNA would be taken in the same way as fingerprints are taken. Why is that provision not in this bill? The only reason it is not there is that the Government did not get its act together. Firstly, it did not get the bill drafted so that it could do that. Most other countries that have a DNA database do have all prisoners on it. In fact, in many countries now, everybody who has been arrested for a crime is put on the database. This Government obviously could not get its act together to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESecondly, it said that if it did, the Institute of Environmental Science and Research, which does the database DNA technology testing, could not cope. Well, what a pathetic response that is. If a Government department that is meant to test DNA samples is not coping, the Government either boosts it up, gives it more funding and more staff, or contracts it out. In many countries they have found that their Government-run agency could not cope. They have private-public partnerships to do the forensic testing, and in some cases they have let it out to the private sector. Now, instead of having a 6 month, 9 month, or 2-year waiting list for crime samples to be tested, which we have in this country, they have a 2-week turn-round. If police officers listening to this debate knew that other countries have a 2-week turn-round of the DNA samples from criminals so they can get their evidence together to go to court to either get a conviction or have the conviction thrown out, or whatever\u2014it all happens within a 2-week window of opportunity\u2014they would think that it was absolutely wonderful. The Government members sitting over there on those benches can do this. It is within their power to actually do this sort of thing, and once again they have failed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8a83305391249a39d3c24718feb69b3\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Why won\u2019t they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be291a50e1164beca05eaa68987f37bb\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, why will they not do it? Perhaps Mr Benson-Pope could take a call and tell us why his Government is not doing it. It is up to you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227efdbc722f5f4018a0e9d067f9e69fb8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is bringing the Speaker into the debate again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d29684dd0e5d46b0bd3da3a6fce301f9\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: I was calling Mr Benson-Pope.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227792d3f7deca43a490f7d9212637463b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member should refer to them as the member, the Minister, or whoever it might be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022585d0b90aa6c471fb1a26b7c3ad36cd6\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: My apologies, Mr Chairperson. I did not want to bring you into the debate. The point is that if a Government is concerned about law and order, it has to put that concern higher up on its priority list. At the moment this Government has law and order down the bottom of the list. That is why the police are under-resourced, under-staffed, over-stressed, and find it so hard to do their job. That is why violent crime is on the rise and why resolution rates of crime are worse than they used to be, in spite of what the Minister has said. All the signs are that crime is getting worse in New Zealand under a Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe sentencing laws are pathetic now. Even the public knows that. They ask why on earth the judges are dishing out such weak-kneed sentences, and the answer is because of the laws this Labour - Progressive - United Future - Green Party Government have passed. A law is to be passed that will take a step in the right direction. As we know, DNA has replaced fingerprinting as the modern method of forensic crime detection. That means that every single person who should have his or her fingerprints taken should have a DNA sample taken as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI know that during this debate there has been the whole issue about whether a person is innocent and all the rest of it, and the civil liberties debate, but the point is that if a person is innocent and his or her DNA is taken, it will prove that that person is innocent. The best way for a person to get out from suspicion of involvement in a crime is to give a DNA sample so that that person can be proven innocent. That is why it is such a good method of testing. It proves that people who are guilty are guilty, and that those who are innocent are innocent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EMembers should cast their minds back to the situation where DNA testing found that Jules Mikus raped and murdered Teresa Cormack in 1987 in Napier. It was DNA testing that pointed to him as the guilty party. He is now safely behind bars. A crime has been solved and the parents of that little girl can now put the whole situation to rest. Every New Zealander thought that that was a great resolution for a terrible crime that had haunted each and every one of us. It was DNA testing that did that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EIf one goes further, at the moment a person is awaiting trial for the murder of Maureen McKinnell in 1987 in Arrowtown. That person has been at large for 15 years and is suspected of her murder, through DNA testing. Members can just imagine that if the DNA of every single person who was ever involved in a violent crime, or was in jail at the present time, was on a national database, and was tested against all unsolved crimes, we would find that hundreds and hundreds of crimes would be solved. The only thing standing in our way to do that is that a Government has to make that its priority and make a commitment to it. At the moment DNA analysis is not given the high priority it deserves. Under this Government there is a backlog in the DNA testing laboratory. Crime samples have been waiting for over a year to be tested. Thousands of them are waiting to be tested. Then there is methamphetamine crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7365790ec6343e5b6208909ba69b698\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Oh dear.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac3b8519e829440eb3516391d3ab98b7\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN\u003C/span\u003E: It is all very well for Jill Pettis to say \u201COh dear.\u201D, but her Government is responsible for that. Methamphetamine crime samples are waiting 2 years to be tested, and that is simply not good enough. Britain has prioritised DNA technology. It ring-fenced DNA, or funding for setting up a DNA database, and that seems a very sensible thing to do. Here the responsibility will be put on the police to set up a national database, and that means that police funding will be squeezed even more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWhile I am talking about police funding, I put on record that when Labour came into power 2.03 percent of all Government spending went into policing. Now it is 1.94 percent, so the Labour Government has squeezed funding since it has been in power, and that is one reason the police are under stress. Britain has privatised DNA testing services. It now takes 2 months for the turn-round to happen. Earlier in the debate we heard the Minister say that the Government was going to fix that and it would take only until June 2004. For goodness\u2019 sake, that is 8 months away. The Minister is saying that anybody who is suspected of a crime has to wait 8 months to be proven innocent, anybody who is guilty will have to wait 8 months to be sentenced, and that is simply not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EIn Britain, where there is a real emphasis on DNA technology, if there is evidence of a crime sample where a DNA test can be done, 80 percent of those crimes are now solved. If there is evidence of a person at a crime scene, 40 percent of those crimes are solved, because of DNA analysis. This Government has gone a step in the right direction, but it is certainly not far enough.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u002217ebeb17775d4dda90c137dae77ac111\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002217ebeb17775d4dda90c137dae77ac111\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Jules Mikus is a name that would have remained obscure if it had not been for the power of DNA testing to resolve a heinous crime 15 years after it was committed and bring some closure to the family and friends of Teresa Cormack. Without DNA testing, that loser would have enjoyed the kinds of liberties that he denied his victims. David Dougherty was a name that was mud for 3\u00BD years and would have been tarnished forever, had it not been for the power of DNA testing to clear that man\u2019s name, and, just as important, assist the police to find the real offender. In the United States DNA evidence cleared Earl Washington of a brutal rape and murder after 10 years on death row and within 9 days of his execution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThis bill attempts to apply the powerful logic of DNA testing to an expanded number of offences and allows for an expanded range of sampling. United Future supports the intent of this bill, but, as I noted earlier, we would like to see those powers extended to an even wider range of offences. It is not as if much doubt remains about the evidential weight of DNA matching. Unlike a fingerprint that can be conclusively linked to a particular individual, DNA matching is based on the probability of samples being from the same person. However, with increasingly sophisticated testing technology, that probability is becoming more and more convincing in respect of passing judgment on the accused. Even a former President of the United States has faced up to the weight of probability as the odds that the genetic traces found on Miss Lewinsky\u2019s dress were not those of Bill Clinton were estimated to be 1 in 7.87 million. The identity of the American Unabomber was assisted by the analysis of saliva left on a letter bomb he sent that did not explode. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I point out that several mistakes in the identification of offenders have occurred in overseas jurisdictions, but they were all caused by errors in handling the samples, as subsequent testing showed. I might add that the committee viewed the operations of the Institute of Environmental Science and Research Ltd laboratory and was satisfied that the integrity of samples was maintained throughout the process, even with about 10,000 samples to process a year. It must be acknowledged that DNA matching is but one part of a prosecution case and is most useful when placed alongside other evidence such as fingerprints, crime-scene investigations, and eyewitness accounts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge the Government\u2019s decision to expand the range of offences to which DNA sampling and matching applies. I am particularly pleased to know that the bill will compel some of the worst criminals still in custody, particularly those interned before 1996, to provide a sample. That would include scum like Paul Dally, Paul Bailey, and Peter Holdem, molesters and murderers of Karla Cardno, Kylie Smith, and Louisa Damodran respectively. Of course, in an ideal world, those guys would never get out, but when and if they do, at least the police will have the goods on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd47d4eb08974308a6958fb0a2bf6885\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: I was discussing the value of DNA matching, and I included a number of individuals\u2014molesters and murderers\u2014who were caught through DNA processes, and some of whom were caught a substantial period after their offending. But we do ask, if DNA matching is of such value for serious offences, why it should not be applied to all those arrested for all crimes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256415ef93aa3402ca8ff254410222ed6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: And MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207c4bc970e054a5b80af77156fc301a0\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: My own suspicion is that that restriction should be placed on Rodney Hide, for a start! It should be put in place merely to limit the costs of processing samples, and I challenge the Minister in the chair, Phil Goff, to prove me wrong by committing more resources to this work in the next Budget. The emphasis here should be on the resolution of crime and, perhaps, even the prevention of crime, as the knowledge that a criminal\u2019s DNA is on the database would serve to deter that criminal from reoffending. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022293e30dd0c4e4ced924f992b82998dee\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Hear, hear!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d97e66b871d84714aef879d27f1d404d\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: The member should hang on. That process is underlined by Jules Mikus\u2019 interview with the police, in which the accused went from confidently protesting his innocence at one moment, to a wailing confession of guilt in the next, once he was confronted by the news that the DNA matched. But DNA matching is not aimed just at nailing the guilty. It can also speed up an investigation by helping to narrow down a list of suspects and reducing the possibility of following false leads. Using the technology for all crimes would send a message to criminals and victims. It would tell victims that the police were doing as much as they possibly could to catch perpetrators. It would send a message to even the most petty of criminals that any transgression of the law is unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s justification of the application of DNA testing to burglary is that it is seen as a gateway crime to more serious offences. Invading a person\u2019s property gives burglars the psychological licence to invade a person\u2019s body through some form of violence. Most of us could not even consider entering other people\u2019s property without invitation, and rifling through their possessions, but even for a first-time burglar, there is some preconditioning that allows him or her to undertake such a crime. That may be an offence as seemingly petty as tagging or shoplifting\u2014something so petty that is punished so lightly that the offender knows he or she can live with the consequences. Each time those criminals commit another, more serious crime, they become more accustomed to the incremental nudge in sentencing. I say that we should treat all crime with the same severity of disapproval, and this bill misses an opportunity to do so by not imposing DNA sampling on all suspects. However, it is still a major step forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI am sickened when I see that so many Opposition members spend so much time criticising such a major step forward. It is not a perfect bill, but no bill is, and there is a huge opportunity further down the track for amendments that could tighten and expand it. We acknowledge the initiative of Phil Goff in putting it through, and I would also like to thank personally the other members, from all the different parties, of the Law and Order Committee. There was a great deal of consensus in tightening it up. I also thank the New Zealand Police Association, which certainly steered us in the right direction of expanding the number of crimes for which DNA sampling should be applied\u2014which we got, thanks to National and New Zealand First, as well as United Future. I acknowledge that Labour had the opportunity to accommodate those interests, and that Phil Goff saw them through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI also thank the Sensible Sentencing Trust for putting forward an incredibly heart-rending story. They brought victims of crime, some of whom had first-hand experience of a sense of closure directly related to DNA profiling of perpetrators of crimes that put the buggers away. That is what this bill is intended to do, and it will do that. I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u0022c35347fb90e045329b1b91b6c9b12bb0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c35347fb90e045329b1b91b6c9b12bb0\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I have already indicated to the House that the Greens oppose the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill. Law and order debates in this Parliament always tell us a lot about the nature of Parliament, because inevitably they are an opportunity for the House to reach new lows in terms of hyperbole and political grandstanding. This debate has probably been restrained in that regard. Maybe it is due to the House being under urgency, and the desire of members to get out of the House early on Thursday or Friday, that the debate has been a bit more restrained than usual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ENevertheless, we have heard the usual hyperbole and the usual grandstanding. We have heard members carrying on about scumbags and slime\u2014using those words to describe people. I despair of our ability as a Parliament ever to deal seriously with the issues of law and order while we fail to realise that people who commit terrible acts are a peculiarly human problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e5f056446a240ac85f4ccc9f9dba87a\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: Get a haircut.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b859025f7dad4155ab3b81494b84ce4e\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: That was a very witty rejoinder from Mr Sutton; it is good to see the member is on form. Such language is great for making us feel good and feel superior, but it adds nothing to the debate or to our ability to deal with serious offending. It reminds me of the debate on the \u201Cboy racer\u201D bill, because the same words\u2014scumbags and slime\u2014were used to describe people who drive their cars fast and do wheelspins. One has to wonder about that. That bill was a perfect example of a bad law that was rushed through, using an appeal to emotion that did not justify the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThis bill does the same thing. Once again, we have seen the members of the Law and Order Committee, which is the same select committee that scrutinised the \u201Cboy racer\u201D bill, say that it has heard the civil rights issues, but that they do not concern the committee and do not have any interest or merit, at all. The select committee said the same thing about the advice that the \u201Cboy racer\u201D bill breached the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. I have listened to the Minister, Mr Goff, talk about the fact that this bill is about preventing violent crime. The Greens were concerned about the bill as it was introduced, because it related to taking DNA samples from people suspected of burglary, but we thought that we could look at that and work through those issues. We are concerned about the way that the taking of DNA has been extended far beyond what we think is reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EI heard the Hon Georgina te Heuheu say that this bill is about serious crime and that we are all against serious crime. Of course we are all against serious, violent crime, but this bill is not primarily about that. Marc Alexander, predictably, used the same tired old arguments about violent crime, and once again, as we so often do in these debates, we heard the names of Karla Cardno, David Dougherty, and the victims of Jules Mikus being used by politicians in an exploitative way to argue for legislation that has nothing to do with the kinds of the cases that those examples are about. This bill is not about those kinds of people. There are already powers to take DNA samples from people suspected of such horrendous and outrageous crimes. We approve of the idea that we should extend that in order to make it possible to take buccal samples. We support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EBut the things that were put into the bill by the select committee are not about serious, violent crime. They are not even primarily about violent crime. We would support this bill if it was about taking DNA samples from people who have committed, or are suspected of committing, violent crimes. This bill targets people who are suspected of a crime that carries a maximum of 7 years or more in prison. I had to look that up. I had to look at the kinds of crimes we are talking about. For example, members should look at the theft provisions. Anyone commits theft who, dishonestly and without any claim of right, takes any property with the intent of permanently depriving the owner of that property, including theft of animals and theft from a spouse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E The Crimes Act 1961, prior to the Crimes Amendment Act 1986, explicated what the term \u201Canimals\u201D meant a little bit more, by referring to any mare, horse, gelding, ass, mule, bull, goat, cow, ox, heifer, ram, ewe or other sheep, or any boar, sow, or any pig, or the young of any such animal as aforesaid. That is what we are talking about\u2014people who are suspected of those kinds of offences can have their DNA coercively taken by the police. And people in this Committee are telling us this bill is about preventing serious, violent crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022574f86f0ea744c19aa0fdcf97f93a5a8\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It always starts with stealing a pig.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ec0937d92f44f1c920615d38465bd66\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS\u003C/span\u003E: Maybe that is correct; I do not know. It is really quite bizarre. I have been reading the bill, and clearly Mr Alexander has not bothered to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003ESection 219(1) of the Crimes Act\u2014until the Crimes Amendment Act of 2003 it was more explicit\u2014provided, in terms of the animals that were capable of being stolen, that \u201CAll tame living creatures, whether tame by nature or wild by nature and tamed, are capable of being stolen; but tame pigeons are capable of being stolen so long only as they are in a dovecote or on their owner\u2019s land.\u201D So theft could not apply to pigeons that are flying in the air, but it may apply to pigeons in a dovecote. That is what we are talking about. So members, instead of just talking about generalisations and using these cases, which are actually already covered, should talk about that. In fact, the case of David Dougherty, which was brought up by Marc Alexander, is probably a very good argument of how the law, as it currently stands, is totally adequate to deal with that case, because it actually picked up that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt that DNA samples are a useful tool in the police tool kit, and, as I have said, the Greens do support this measure where it is about violent offences. But to talk about the offences that I have just read from the Act is bizarre. Members really need to look at what the bill actually does, instead of what they think they want it to do. They should deal with the actual bill that, it seems, we are about to pass into law. The Greens oppose this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002283be9629315047fa83b24838d2674661\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 101\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13;ACT New Zealand 5; United Future 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222b0564c6762d493f814d5594c8075cc4\u0022\u003EWine Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022189f36e6a90c454fa859819ba3b3cabd\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022f4d2338011f642da81198eee5bec951b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f4d2338011f642da81198eee5bec951b\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Wine Bill be now read a second time. The purposes of the bill have always been quite straightforward. They are to have legislation that protects the interests of consumers and the reputation of New Zealand wine. At the same time the legislation has to be sufficiently robust and enforceable to protect producers from the protectionist technical barriers that are a reality of life in the international trading environment of the 21st century. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe Wine Bill was referred to the Primary Production Committee on 17 October last year. Since then the committee has undertaken a great deal of work on the bill. In response to the urgent need to enhance our regulatory export regime, the committee divided Part 5 out of the bill and reported it back as the Wine Makers Amendment Bill in early December last year. That bill was enacted in March this year. It was aimed at maintaining access to overseas markets, particularly the European Union, in the period leading up to the passage and commencement of this legislation. Once the committee had divided out Part 5, it sought submissions on the remainder of the bill. Submissions were received from last December through to May this year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EMany submissions reflected an old mindset toward the regulation of the making and exporting of wine. They concentrated on seeking to reduce compliance costs and minimise regulatory powers. The committee had the difficult task of reconciling the industry\u2019s need for a legally enforceable regime, primarily around standards and exports, with submitters\u2019 requests for a narrow regulatory regime. Submissions focused on five key issues, those being the definition of \u201Cwine\u201D, limiting the types of standards that can be set under the bill, the simplification of wine standards management plans, the removal of compliance orders, and improving the consultation requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003ESubmitters sought clarification of the definitions of wines in the bill. In particular, they sought definitions that are consistent with the definitions of the types of wine in the New Zealand food standards. That makes sense, as does providing a means of updating those definitions to maintain consistency with the definitions in the food standards. I support the committee\u2019s recommendation to insert new definitions and an ability to change them by Order in Council, to reflect any changes in the definitions in the New Zealand food standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EWinemakers were concerned that the bill appeared to allow a whole raft of wine standards to be set. That is not what was intended. Instead, it was intended to enable some wine standards to cross-reference relevant food standards, so as to create a single regime for both wine standards and relevant food standards. The committee proposed a clearer means of achieving the outcome of a single regime for wine standards and relevant food standards. It recommends two key amendments to the bill. The first is to amend clause 14(2)(e)(i) to clearly and directly reference New Zealand food standards. That has the effect of making wine standards management plans, which are the key compliance regime within the bill, also about compliance with the relevant food standards. The second amendment is consequential. It removes clause 33(2)(a) to (i), which effectively repeats the scope of the New Zealand food standards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe third key issue, simplification of the wine standards management plans, arose from winemakers thinking that their wine standards management plans would be markedly different from each others and would need to be highly complex, which would therefore increase the compliance costs. These plans are the key compliance regime for wine standards, relevant food standards, and relevant export requirements. I want to allay that concern. Wine standards management plans are expected to be comparatively simple documents. The industry should be able to develop templates, as provided for in the bill, which would allow individual wineries to apply the templates to their businesses. The committee has taken that on board, and has recommended no amendments in respect of wine standards management plans beyond technical amendments and the amendment to clause 14(2)(e)(i), which I referred to earlier. I support that decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe fourth key issue was the removal of the clauses relating to compliance orders. Submitters sought to remove those clauses as they saw them as bureaucratic and unnecessary, given the other enforcement powers in the bill. However, those other powers are significantly more severe than compliance orders. They include prosecutions, suspension of winemaking operations, and deregistration of wine standards management plans. As the bill requires all winemakers to have a registered wine standards management plan, deregistration would preclude the winemaker from being able to make wine legally for sale in New Zealand, which would clearly be a disastrous state of affairs. The industry sought strict enforcement, not the safer approach that compliance orders would give. Compliance orders are a useful enforcement tool, but removing them would not undermine the integrity of the bill. I therefore accept the committee\u2019s recommendation that the clauses providing for, and relating to, compliance orders be removed from the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EFinally, submitters sought amendments to the bill to highlight and extend the nature of consultation under the bill. Submitters saw strengthened consultation requirements as a solution to their concerns about the nature and extent of the regulations and director-general\u2019s notices that could be issued under the legislation. Submitters sought three key amendments in that respect: first, a new objective recognising consultation as an aid to fostering the efficiency and growth of the industry; second, an application of the consultation requirements in clause 128 to the making of all regulations under the bill; and third, the insertion of a principle of consultation at the front of the bill, or, alternatively, a shifting of clause 128 to the front of the bill. The committee has recommended amending the bill in respect of the first two of those proposals, and is against inserting a new principle-of-consultation clause or shifting clause 128. I agree with that view. Making the promotion of consultation with the industry on regulation of the industry an objective of the bill is a key amendment proposed by the committee. It highlights the need for the New Zealand Food Safety Authority to work with the wine industry to achieve a successful win-win outcome for both the Government and the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the Primary Production Committee for considering this bill so thoroughly, and for reporting it back on Tuesday, 19 August with amendments that both improve and clarify the bill. I commend this bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022c94563039050416cad595d4b7034bdf1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c94563039050416cad595d4b7034bdf1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I think that by the time the bill finally came back to the House it was a win-win for all concerned, but I do not think the Minister of Agriculture can take any credit for that. A huge amount of hard work was done by officials, the Wine Institute of New Zealand\u2014and I will refer to that shortly\u2014and the members of the Primary Production Committee, who tidied up what was an ill-prepared bill at the time it was given to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to pay tribute to the New Zealand wine industry. We heard during submissions that the industry currently exports about $250 million of wine, and that figure is predicted to nearly triple over the next few years. I think all New Zealanders take pride in the reputation that our wine has achieved right around the globe. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to this industry, which is earning a lot of export dollars for our country, and is doing so because the people involved are entrepreneurial. They just want to get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe evidence before the select committee showed me how diverse this industry is. Yes, there are one or two quite large players in the industry, but most of the people involved in it are relatively small operators of boutique wineries who \u201Ceager out\u201D markets for themselves, both here and overseas\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae25d64393794242a455e84fac53fe1c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: And it all tastes great.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f57060ff8514e73894fb0a4d719e85e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, no. I think we had evidence before us\u2014not enough, I might add\u2014that some wines taste excellent and some will improve with age. I think that is the politest way one can say it. Anyway, I do not want to be diverted, because this bill is very serious legislation, and if we move quickly through it tonight, there might be a chance to enjoy some New Zealand product before the end of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe point I want to make about the diversity of the industry is that it operates in a tough environment, and these people do not want to be stressed by a whole lot of additional costs in compliance. I guess the submitters, in total, were saying to us that the bill as presented to the select committee was a complete overreaction. It was a bureaucratic nightmare, which resulted in the number of submitters totalling 115, and I do not recall any who were supportive of the legislation as it was referred to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI have to say the timing of the calling of submissions could not have been worse, because there was huge anti-Government feeling and a lack of trust on the part of the industry. At the same time that we were receiving those submissions, Mr Anderton had convinced his\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222779dbf718854a8a8271379f9738b160\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, he\u2019s an idiot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ac91a3c74e402383b7013a379253a9\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I could not possibly comment. Mr Anderton had convinced Mr Sutton that it was time to impose a sneaky little excise tax totalling $18 million. It was in that environment that we had to deal with 115 submitters who were angry with the Government. They were angry quite justifiably\u2014Mr Sutton is nodding his head; he regrets that move\u2014and they were angry for two reasons. The No. 1 reason was that Mr Anderton had only just written a letter to the industry saying there would be no more sneaky taxes, and promising to consult. Darren Hughes is hanging his head in shame because he knows how honest Mr Anderton is; he has to work with him. But, sadly, the industry briefly trusted Mr Anderton, who had signed that letter. I doubt whether that will happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point I want to make is that the tax the Government imposed was on beverages of 14 to 23 percent alcohol in content\u2014namely, ports and sherries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ea13db447084e1f9af431c58a1fafa3\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s a bit like your poll rating.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd49e744fd3c4996b85a2932882d1118\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I challenge Mr Hughes as the young baby of the House to listen to this. Mr Hughes stood in the House and said that the Government needed to do that because young people were drinking sherry and port. I say to Mr Hughes that he should get out there, go down to Courtenay Place with Winston Peters, and have a look. The young people are not drinking sherry and they are not drinking port. There was no need for that tax to be passed. That was the climate created by the Government, and the problem handled by the select committee as we beavered away to tidy up Mr Sutton\u2019s mess.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe bill was certainly overkill when we first saw it. The difficulty we had was that the officials who came before us said they had consulted the industry and the bill had widespread support. Well, if it had widespread support, why did we have so many angry winemakers come before us? We scratched our heads for a while thinking about the best way round it. I will not say the answer was the chairman\u2019s idea, but I guess it probably was. We came up with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220733ebd0b6049e0822ece987fca7971\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Who is the chairman of that committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022826ab37323354fe8b9cfad4d485d6948\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Darren Hughes can take a call and he can let the House know who the chairman is. We came up with the brilliant idea of saying we needed some help from the industry, and we appointed Mr Philip Gregan of New Zealand Winegrowers, previously known as the Wine Institute, to come along as a special adviser and work closely and collegially with the officials to see whether we could find a way through the mess that Mr Sutton had handed to us. We should not have had to do that. That work should have been done before the bill was ever presented to us. But I have to say that, because of the way the process then worked, we are now presenting legislation back to the House that is hugely more acceptable to the industry than it was. We were able to iron out some of the wrinkles. We were able to achieve what I think the industry will find is far better legislation with which to operate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI implore the Minister, if he is working with an industry such as this again, to take some time to listen. We have just had the debacle about the flatulence tax, where the Minister blindly called farmers whingers and moaners, then half-heartedly had to back down. But there is never an apology from that Minister to say he got it wrong. In the case of the Wine Bill, there is absolutely no doubt that he got it wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMr Sutton referred to the changes we made, and I will talk quite specifically to those as we work through the Committee stage later on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E The point I want to talk about is that Mr Sutton made a comment regarding the changes to the compliance orders, and the fact we have now imposed a far more drastic regime on the industry. I think Mr Sutton needs that to be explained to him. The solution to a bad operation is now more drastic than it was because that is what the industry wanted. The industry told us that it did not want some mealy-mouthed, bureaucratic regime\u2014[Interruption] Sorry, Mr Sutton? No, his interjection has run out of steam already. The industry did not want some mealy-mouthed, bureaucratic process by which a bad operator could continue to damage the industry. The industry said that if a guy operating in the wine industry was not operating professionally and safely, then the industry wanted that person out of the game altogether. The committee supported that argument, because we do not want anything done within the industry to damage the hard work that has gone into creating this now very significant export industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI conclude by paying tribute to Mr Philip Gregan for the work he did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aac76a5f4af4f8eaf780188f66504e8\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Heatley.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ab9914c99f84989b6af4a2edfaf8174\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: No, Phil Heatley can take his own praise. Mr Gregan travelled down here on a regular basis, at times at short notice, as we worked through this issue on our agenda, amongst a lot of other work. The spirit with which he was received by the committee, his work with the officials, and the advice we collectively got mean I can certainly support with pride this legislation coming back into the House tonight. I think it was a very good process and one that, in the future, other select committees could look at using. When legislation required by an industry creates so much angst at the start, we parliamentarians need at least to try to find a way to work through it in a select committee process so that what is passed has a great deal more acceptability than what was first presented to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022cd0822003c984705a774b15f2c9485bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cd0822003c984705a774b15f2c9485bb\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I did not want to interrupt Mr Carter, but while he was on his feet the Government whip Mr David Benson-Pope gave me an obscene gesture with his finger, by sticking his finger up then pretending to push it up his nose. I took grave exception to that and I suggest that he be asked to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u002233470cbb8f834da5a2180526f58bdd96\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002233470cbb8f834da5a2180526f58bdd96\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I did not make an obscene gesture to Mr Hide. That is a totally offensive suggestion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaa916d1ae814253962947e435f6d6ac\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s word is accepted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022807eed33d7874ac5bcc4834ef42d23c1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022807eed33d7874ac5bcc4834ef42d23c1\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Whose word is accepted\u2014Mr Benson-Pope\u2019s or mine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264e45a20e11b429faa14fef965e0f7de\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows very well that when members are asked, their words are accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223003862d47204563a8fb80ef1f556990\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Well, we know what sort of man David Benson-Pope is now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6029eb24c24c04ba69d1711f7b91e0\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Hide, that is completely out of order, and I warn you that when I have made a ruling on a point of order, it is not for you to comment on it\u2014it is final. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00220fd11b9860bd4eb699041afb809b33b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fd11b9860bd4eb699041afb809b33b3\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of the bill. I think one of the key issues about the Wine Bill is that it is a response that the Government has made in cooperation with the industry, and was initiated at the request of the industry. No one in this country would be unaware of the extraordinary value and level of sophistication of the wine industry in this country, particularly in the last two decades. This bill will ensure that the excellent international reputation of New Zealand export wine is maintained, and that the standards we are forced to set by mechanisms that operate elsewhere are well and truly met. I commend it to the House for rapid passage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00226dfc15a611b3495a9ac57f71f5426b7b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226dfc15a611b3495a9ac57f71f5426b7b\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will be supporting this bill. I want to thank the officials, and I want to thank the select committee chair. He did speak about himself\u2014I thought he would be far more modest than that\u2014but I had it in mind to congratulate him. The bill was in some difficulty. It was looked on with not only distaste but also suspicion by the industry, which thought it far too heavy-handed. It was at the chairman\u2019s suggestion that Mr Philip Gregan worked alongside the officials, and I thank the officials for accepting that and working with him in the manner they did. They were able to overcome the distrust and suspicion, and I believe they worked for what we all want, which is good law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4b5a9f62c014228aa18ef2f0f46f60f\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Good wine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228df654ce8fc7420ea1ce07cba55f4813\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: And good wine, as the interjector said. The industry sought this bill. It is concerned that things are tightening up. It faced tariffs and non-tariff barriers in countries it exports to. It was with those threats hanging over its head that the industry sought this bill and sought some regulation. The wine standards management plans take the place of several other Government impositions that the industry has had to fulfil, so they are not the burden that one might at first glance expect them to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe industry, through Mr Philip Gregan\u2014a man who must be admired, and certainly is admired by myself; he has seven women and no other men on his staff, and runs a fine operation, as one would expect\u2014in many cases came up with the ideas that have been put in this bill. Mr Gregan was the one who went back to his members and saw the changes through. He did not always agree with them, and in the beginning he rarely agreed. I am sure the officials took him through them very carefully, and they came out with a consensus. This made the work of the committee very easy, even though we were working in a short time frame.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EMy colleague Dail Jones hails from a winegrowing area, and has many good friends among the Dalmatian community, many of whom were founders\u2014and we will not mention what that shows about Mr Dail Jones\u2019 age\u2014of the wine industry. He said in his first reading speech that changes needed to be made to the bill, and those changes have, by and large, been made. Because he is a lawyer I will bow to his superior knowledge of technical matters, and he will speak on those changes in the Committee stage of this bill. Suffice to say, he had the wisdom to foresee what was wrong with the bill, he talked of those changes in his speech, and those changes have come to pass.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EMuch has been made of the size of the wine industry, but it pays to get it into perspective. It is still a small and emerging industry by world standards. It is still a small and emerging industry by dairy industry and meat industry standards. But it is a hugely important industry because it is undertaken in places where pastoral farming is, shall we say, more difficult than in other parts of New Zealand. It is a nice, niche market that we can extract out of our land-based products in New Zealand. It is a niche market in the world market, as well. It is very important from that perspective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is important as an emerging market, because it is seen as a sophisticated industry. I do not quite know how that comes to pass. I hail from the dairy industry, and I think that is a hugely sophisticated industry. The wine industry sees itself as the epitome of sophistication. When we listened to Mr Gerry Eckhoff, we almost felt that wine took on magical powers. I have been witness to wine producing magical powers in people in the dead of night, but I have not been witness to that magical transformation in a stone cold sober member of a select committee. Mr Eckhoff knows a lot about this subject, and we see from his minority report that he abhorred and saw as a sin that this industry should take on any form of regulation, should have to conform to any standards whatsoever, and should, in any way, have to be anything other than a magical product of the grape the mysteries of which nobody would even attempt to unravel. Mr Eckhoff\u2019s minority report springs from that basis. It will be no surprise to you, Madam Speaker, or to members to hear me say I think his minority report is a load of rubbish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb8464fd66c5466286350502b35ba629\u0022\u003EHon Jim Sutton\u003C/span\u003E: An invasion of property rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3d3e54fca7f4ad6aef8ed1069e388eb\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. He did not mention property rights as far as this issue was concerned, but we heard a lot about boutique wineries in Otago. Whether that added to the debate was debatable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe wine industry is very important. It is an emerging industry. It is an industry that we have to nurture. It is an industry of the future. It is an industry that fits with all the agricultural products that we produce so well in this country. I commend the bill. I even want to say a kind word about my colleagues from the other parties. We worked for a common cause, and I believe that we have come up with a very sensible bill that does away with a lot of overly bureaucratic nonsense. I believe that it will work well within the industry, and I believe that it has the industry\u2019s backing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce8b7e8b4a6849e792bd841f60a7d8e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce8b7e8b4a6849e792bd841f60a7d8e4\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start my contribution this evening by thanking the officials who are here tonight. They undertook a very long and involved consultation process, and when they got to the select committee they found that, basically, they had to redo it. In my opinion, they did an outstanding job, and I do give my sincere thanks to them. However, I give them a small word of advice. If they were the ones who were responsible for the Supplementary Order Paper arriving on my desk at about 11 o\u2019clock this morning, then they should try getting it there a bit earlier next time if they want me to support it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI would also like to express my gratitude to Philip Gregan, the Chief Executive Officer of New Zealand Winegrowers. My other colleagues have mentioned his contribution, as well. I think he brought a degree of rational debate to the whole discussion we had around the bill, simply because of his depth of knowledge. He was able to bring the views, at least of the bigger players in the industry, to the officials and into the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI see the Wine Bill as being a very positive expression of democracy in action. The wine industry wanted to integrate its activities into a single legislative framework, and basically this is what we have done. We have a regime that provides certainty for the industry. The industry wanted certainty in areas like the standards of production, exports, compliance enforcement, and industry-good funding. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThe bill has a number of objectives, and my colleagues have mentioned a number of them. I would like to focus on just one this evening\u2014that is, the setting of standards for identity, labelling, and the safety of wine. The wine standards management plan, or \u201CWSMP\u201D, as we came to know it as, lies at the very heart of the structure of this bill. It probably has its genesis in the Coopers Creek fiasco, which was a mislabelling exercise that occurred a few years ago. Coopers Creek was found guilty of placing gold medal labels on vastly inferior wine of the same variety, but not the actual wine that won the gold medal. In that case, the actions of a very few people quite explicitly undermined the whole industry\u2014up to that point anyway\u2014and the quite extraordinarily cooperative behaviour that was exhibited across the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThe ramifications of the actions of those few people have rumbled on through the years, and I think that this bill is a logical consequence of what happened all those years ago. I guess one of the ramifications that was unexpected by Coopers Creek at the time was that it made the winemaker famous. When he came to sell his label rights not long ago, he did exceptionally well out of it, financially. The industry has made its reputation worldwide by focusing single-mindedly on quality. That, I believe, is a very clear message for the rest of the agricultural industry. We should concentrate very closely on quality, as, with the possible exception of the milk solids dairy industry, New Zealand can never compete in a commodity market. We have to be a niche player. We will always be a minnow in agricultural terms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EJust as a very incidental point, I cannot resist saying that we need to be free of genetically engineered organisms for precisely that reason, which is exactly the position the wine industry is taking. It is my opinion that we are best to concentrate on the top end of the market, and that is what the wine industry already does. We already have very good market acceptance in all our premium markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003ESo it is into this scenario that the wine standards management plan is designed to fit. Its intention, or its design, is to encourage all growers to comply with this overarching quest for quality, and, at the same time, provide a disincentive in terms of a compliance regime for those who may consider that their best interests are served by not complying. The wine standards management plan is a scaffold, a skeleton, around which the wine is created. Each management plan can be individually created by the winemaker or by his or her company. Equally though, it can be based on a template or a model that is more generic in nature. The whole idea of the wine standards management plan is that it is designed to identify, control, manage, and eliminate\u2014or at least minimise\u2014the hazards and other risk factors in relation to the making of wine, and therefore to ensure that it is fit for its intended purpose. Once a wine standards management plan is constructed by the winemaker or the company, it then has to be approved by the director-general of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. It is then this plan that the winery works to in the creation of its wine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI must confess that I really like the idea of management plans. On the one hand they do create a uniformity of process\u2014keeping records, and things like that\u2014that focuses on quality, so there is an underlying quest for quality that the management plans encourage. On the other hand, the management plans behave in an enabling way. They enable winemakers, within this structure, to be creative in the making of their wines. It is a bit like saying it does not matter what language we speak, we can still make a speech\u2014but let us not go down that road.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c843389ed854faf8d7f9a414a34a136\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: In this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9e5a52b16d646119dddcc6872064071\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: In this Parliament we can, in any language. The wine standards management plans simply ensure that human health and safety is upheld, that the manufacture of the wine is traceable and accountable, and that the wine contains no unsafe ingredients. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EAnother aspect of this bill is that which refers to labelling. There has been quite a controversy around labelling, and I guess that dates back to Coopers Creek, as well. The bill provides empowering provisions that set New Zealand\u2019s standards by regulation. The regulations do not change what is on the label of New Zealand wine but it does change how the information on the label is verified, and that is an important distinction. The wine industry was probably in an unusual situation, in that it approached the Government to increase the controls over the whole of the winemaking process. Usually people come to us, wanting to decrease controls. The wine industry actively wants to have more on the wine labels, in terms of accountability. They want labels to reflect information like the country of origin\u2014obviously New Zealand - made\u2014the region where the wine is made; the variety of the wine, whether it is Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Gris, Pinot Noir, or whatever; the vintage of the wine, which is the year it was made; and a whole range of other things. What the industry clearly wants is maximised information. It manifestly does not want a recurrence of the Coopers Creek fiasco. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI cannot let pass this opportunity to mention levies. A lot of submitters were opposed to the idea that this legislation would enable levies for cost recovery to be imposed. Their claim\u2014and I have some sympathy for it\u2014was that they already pay huge amounts in excise tax. The Hon David Carter mentioned the problems we have had with the increase in tax on port, sherry, and other fortified wines\u2014by mistake, in effect. Although I have some sympathy with small winemakers not wanting to be lumbered with compliance costs and having increased levies, we do have to look at the reality of the wine industry\u2014that is, its primary function is to produce alcohol. Although alcohol can be argued to be fairly harmless when taken in moderation\u2014and I must admit I am a great contributor to the industry on the consumption side\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272356f0827df4f1dbe55a006787afd5c\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Are you a wine buff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf0df12ecf6f4a2a8d78e1d40c7c5e2c\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: On occasions I have been known to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3c5d8ba323e461eb0658b2c7c31d794\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Imbibe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a5bf4291404043b9c73cf75d8c51db\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014imbibe, yes. It is certainly my recreational drug of choice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222106761b9ed144a0a4dd925a5415c358\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Do you swallow?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdeee4581c824bc385bc2b39f8ef0db3\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do swallow. The fact remains that alcohol can have very negative impacts on our society. I am thinking in terms of alcoholism for some people who cannot control their desire for alcohol, and, of course, in terms of its being a lead-up to car crashes and death by accident. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThis is common-sense legislation. It started off as being very complex legislation and will probably finish up as being pretty complex, as well. But it is certainly a lot better, a lot clearer, and a lot simpler now than it was when it first came before the select committee. The Greens take great pleasure in supporting the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u0022776dbd69539f45aabc3e54a8df6095bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022776dbd69539f45aabc3e54a8df6095bb\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E Let me begin by stating what I think most people would surely agree with, and that is that the growth of the New Zealand wine industry is one of this country\u2019s success stories. The figures I am aware of reinforce this\u2014over $300 million worth of wine is exported today, compared with just $30 million worth 10 years ago. That is a phenomenal increase, and it must surely set a benchmark for other industries. Few, if any, industries I am aware of can so ably compete in such a saturated, competitive international market as the New Zealand wine industry has done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022772ccb3c8fd44cbda1f9b830e86e103b\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. There is a buzz around the Chamber, and I am having difficulty hearing the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227263ffe1114a47f6991c3cef9bd257cb\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: This has happened several times, and it is very disconcerting for the speaker if anybody is standing up and talking while the member is on his or her feet. I ask members to keep their conversations quiet and that they not stand up. I am sorry to have interrupted the member on his feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022374048b3eca14246a62285e6043898f0\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Winning over patrons around the world and bringing home more than its fair share of awards and citations means that New Zealand wine is a symbol of excellence. From its very beginnings, this country\u2019s wine industry has grown very swiftly to become a world-class export sector that we can all be very proud of. Yet we must be mindful that a rolling stone gathers no moss. In order to remain robust, to remain very competitive, to continue to preserve its good name internationally, and to grow further, the wine industry must evolve. It must move forward to meet the ongoing requirements of its export markets. This wine bill, with its new enabling legislative framework, will allow export winemakers to better adapt to changing export conditions and safeguard the very good reputation that our wine commands both here and overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EAllow me to reiterate the point that this legislation is enabling legislation. It should not be considered prescriptive or, indeed, repressive. It enables any change of compliance in export markets to be met and dealt with by regulatory mechanisms that can be tailored to particular situations. It provides an efficient and flexible process by which winemakers can adjust to regulatory changes within their respective export markets. Rather than having to return to this House every time the regulatory regime changes, this country\u2019s wine export community now has a process in place to meet those challenges, bypassing the potentially drawn-out legislative process it had to go through up until this point. The flexibility of this approach ensures that the new wine legislation will endure in the commercial environment in which the industry continues to operate. Current legislation is not designed to cope with the new situation in the wine industry\u2014in particular, the need to pass special legislation to meet new Eurozone labelling requirements, which other people have spoken on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EWhether or not a minority in the industry disputes the need for the scope of this bill, or even the bill itself, the industry needs a new legislative environment. As production continues to surge and the international environment becomes ever more competitive, the existing regulatory regime for grape wine is becoming increasingly outdated. For other types of wines, as well, changes in the operating commercial environment make such an updated regulatory approach highly desirable. I note that the flexibility of the management plan is illustrated by its ability to be developed on a template basis\u2014as other speakers have mentioned\u2014across a particular wine industry, incorporating existing systems and codes of practice with that industry. An improved system of wine export controls is provided for in this bill, together with an improved mechanism for funding industry or industry-good activities. The bill also introduces important cost recovery for services provided to industry by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E The protection of the wine industry\u2019s good name in export markets should be of paramount interest to us as legislators. One means of harming the industry\u2019s reputation is the falsification of export documents, as is alleged to have occurred in Hawke\u2019s Bay recently. This legislation will go a long way to regulate against such an embarrassing and commercially damaging injury to a vital export sector. We simply must act to protect the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EAfter soliciting the views of the wine industry, I am satisfied that this bill provides the right disciplines for that industry. I accept that some winemakers are wary of increased compliance costs. United Future often advocates stemming the tide of regulatory creep and compliance burdens, but with regard to this bill, those costs are absolutely necessary. It should be noted that they do not blanket the entire industry, but apply only to winemakers who export their products. As I understand it, the key concerns of the industry have been met by the amendments proposed in the select committee, and the regulatory framework laid out in the bill has almost unanimous buy-in from winemaking practitioners. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003ELet me sum up by asserting that the Wine Bill is not strangulation legislation, as some have indicated. Rather, it will bring life to the export wine industry by equipping it with the capability to better adapt to change by protecting its good name, and it will help ensure that the wine industry remains an icon of this country\u2019s commercial success. United Future supports the Wine Bill, and hopes that it will proceed expeditiously through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1c042d0c8404dca874953ac57e3be5b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1c042d0c8404dca874953ac57e3be5b\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I was intrigued by the last speaker, who indicated that this bill does not have high compliance costs. It was never intended that it should have high compliance costs, but I need to remind the Chair that, as previous speakers have indicated, when this bill first hit our desks in October last year, it had a high degree of compliance costs. The member whose eye was the keenest in identifying those costs was David Carter, but we were quick to follow, because we did not see the necessity to load more and more compliance costs on the wine industry\u2014a successful New Zealand business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EAlthough David Carter\u2019s eye was keener than most, we still found it necessary to equip ourselves with advice. That is where I, too, would like to acknowledge Phil Gregan, and if he were here tonight, I am sure he would appreciate my saying that. I am sure I would win his vote if he lived in Whangarei, and I acknowledge him for the time and effort he put in. I enjoyed his input\u2014he was very succinct and clear. His \u201Cyes\u201D meant yes, and his \u201Cno\u201D meant no. He was a very patient adviser and a very patient advocate for the wine industry, and I am letting that be known. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that when we worked through this bill clause by clause, word by word, with our knives out carving out the bureaucracy and compliance costs, Phil Gregan\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000769\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225de6877671ff44b68b14aa2f45999c5b\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201CPaper Reduction Bill\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000770\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6f144675aeb425cb079aaf10e7cc49c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It was. When we come to the debate on the title in the Committee stage, we will be considering calling this bill\u2014and Rodney Hide will be interested in this\u2014the \u201CPaper Reduction Bill\u201D, because we carved so much crap and compliance costs out of it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000771\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EPhil Gregan was interesting. For instance, we would say to him: \u201CThis is what this clause deals with, in our view. Can you give us a brief precis on that?\u201D. He did. We would say: \u201CIs this acceptable or unacceptable?\u201D. He would tell us, and we would move on. We would say: \u201CIs this negotiable?\u201D, and he would indicate whether it was negotiable. If it was negotiable, we would negotiate and move on. We would say: \u201CIs this non-negotiable?\u201D, and on behalf of the wine industry, he would say: \u201CThis is non-negotiable.\u201D, and it was. We made changes, and I am proud of that. That is the end of my acknowledgment of Phil Gregan. If he were here tonight, he would appreciate that; and if he has any family living in the Whangarei electorate, I am sure they will indicate their thanks in 2005. I acknowledge David Carter and all my colleagues on the Primary Production Committee, who worked well together on that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000772\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ETrade issues came up a fair bit. Madam Speaker, you will recall\u2014because you have been taking an intense interest in this bill over the last 18 months\u2014that Part 5 of the original bill was separated out and passed earlier this year as the Wine Makers Amendment Act. That legislation governed the labelling of wine to ensure its access to export markets\u2014particularly, if I recall, to the European Union. The bill originally dealt with trade issues. We carved off Part 5, but the bill continues, and the guts of it still continues to deal with trade issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000773\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWe do have a successful wine industry, and I have to confess that my family, as consumers, contributes to that industry in one way or another. At the heart of the Wine Bill is the concept of wine standards management plans.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000774\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243adf236f9dd4d14a6154770511cb916\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWSMPS\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000775\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d6f68193f44fa380b16cefb97f70d8\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is what we ended up calling them, and it was all to do with trade and standards. Those plans provide a single comprehensive and verifiable regime for food safety compliance, and we know how important that is when it comes to trade, wine composition, labelling, and overseas market access requirements. Those are the four legs of the table. They are the issues that provide stability for this industry when exporting overseas: food safety, wine composition, labelling, and overseas market access requirements. All are important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000776\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a54f6d9b22a478795bd4a9f5c700f45\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: What if the table doesn\u2019t have four legs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000777\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224bdd07e93357423b936150bc47727fdb\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite true that three-legged tables do not have four legs, but I am talking about the success of this industry being underpinned by those four concepts: food safety, wine composition, labelling, and overseas market access requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000778\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EWine standards management plans, which are at the heart of the bill, are developed by the industry and approved by another body. It is envisaged that they might be developed on a type of template basis across a particular wine industry, incorporating what exists, because a fair bit does exist. Most manufacturers understand the importance of labelling and of winning and maintaining market access. They understand the issues to do with food safety, so a lot of those things are already in place. However, the wine standards management plans will make sure that, on a template basis, or on a more specific basis, they can incorporate the codes of practice within the industry. That is very important for export markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000779\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EMuch was made of the Coopers Creek fiasco some time ago, and members have addressed that. I know that David Carter knows a fair bit about it, and the member of Parliament who spoke on behalf of United Future also mentioned it. The Coopers Creek incident caused a lot of trouble for the wine industry overseas, and we do not want to see that happen again. We hope that such incidents have been curtailed, firstly, by Part 5 of the original bill, which was separated out and made into an amendment to the Wine Makers Act, and, secondly, by the wine standards management plans. The bill also requires that all winemakers must operate under a registered wine standards management plan specific to them. There is a degree of flexibility there, and we have been quite concerned to make sure that growers do not face too many hurdles in obtaining them\u2014particularly those who have standards in place, which, of course, involves most growers these days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000780\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe bill contains strong powers of suspension in respect of the Director-General of Agriculture, who has the powers to act against registered plans that no longer meet the requirements of this legislation. If winegrowers do not comply as of the date the bill is passed and those particular clauses come into effect, the Director-General of Agriculture can use his or her powers of suspension. That is addressed in clause 17, which is a clause I would like to speak about in more detail during the Committee stage, because such powers should not be used loosely. We talked for some time with submitters about that, but we also understood that those in the industry who do not comply and bring the whole industry into disrepute\u2014particularly in our overseas markets\u2014need to be punished. The Director-General of Agriculture clearly has powers to address that problem under clause 17, which I will speak about later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000781\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe need to pass this legislation is vital to the future of the rapidly growing wine industry. The setting, the monitoring, the compliance, and the enforcing of agreed wine quality standards, plus a more flexible system to ensure continued market access and a revised system for setting levies, are seen by the industry as being the main benefits. The downside of the legislation, which I will address, is seen by the industry as being the cost of compliance, and I will be talking about that. That matter has to do with clauses 85 to 97, and I can assure members that they will hear about it later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002231f65c97fdc1439f9e913a167035c557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000782\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002231f65c97fdc1439f9e913a167035c557\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The development of the wine industry in New Zealand, particularly post-1990, has been quite extraordinary. In debating this bill, it is worth paying tribute to those who pioneered the industry many, many years ago. We should think of some of the difficulties they faced in their time. I understand that, for a time, it was not legal for a winery to sell anything less than 6 gallons of its product in any one sale. We have progressed to a point today where, I understand, New Zealand has in excess of 1,600 wineries, producing some of the best wines in the world. It is appropriate that this bill is passed to give the sorts of protections that the industry requires.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000783\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EMy support for this bill is based on my belief that the industry is quite comfortable with the provisions in it. Earlier in the year I was approached by Brent Rawstron and the Giesen Brothers from Canterbury\u2014an area that is starting to flourish as a wine-producing area. They raised a number of concerns, which I believe are mitigated by the bill reported back to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000784\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ENew Zealand produces unique wines. I have a somewhat uneducated palate when it comes to wines. Montana Wines was entering an agreement with the then Seagram\u2019s company in the United States a couple of years ago, and Montana facilitated an opportunity for me to travel to the Napa Valley in the US as part of the friendship programme that New Zealand operates with the US. However, under our current Government I understand that that programme is almost curtailed, because friendship with the US is off the agenda. We do not talk about it; we simply subject ourselves to a humiliating 12-minute pull-aside that goes something like: \u201CHello, George\u201D; \u201CHello, Helen\u201D; \u201CHow\u2019s the family?\u201D; \u201CNot too bad. What other things would you like to talk about?\u201D; \u201CWell, I don\u2019t know.\u201D; \u201CHang on, I\u2019ve got to answer my cellphone, but nice of you to come, Helen. Goodbye.\u201D Then the Government puts out a press release saying what a great relationship we have with that country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000785\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI turn back to the bill. I was able to travel up to the Napa Valley and to a winery owned by Seagram\u2019s, which at that stage was marketing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000786\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022166376bcf8a74a319d3eae5a0faa1feb\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Tell the truth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000787\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ff49107036b048789845c2c859c3b0b9\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Good God, Madam Chair! You must do something. That member is yelling out. They call her the paint-stripper. Just look at the varnish on the walls of the Chamber\u2014it is starting to bubble. It will cost the taxpayer a fortune to fix, if that woman is not made to shut up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000788\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI went to the large winery that Seagram\u2019s had at the top of the valley, and the people there decided to have a tasting between two locally produced wines and two wines imported under the Brancott Estate label. They defied me to pick the difference. Even with my very uneducated palate, there was no question which of those two wines came from New Zealand. They were unique in their taste, they were quite fulsome, and I could understand why they were selling at such a premium in the US. It is an industry that is growing considerably, and needs encouragement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000789\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI recall also attending a luncheon at the Windows on the World restaurant at the top of the World Trade Center\u2014the building that was the victim of a terrorist attack just a wee while ago. I was there with the Hon Phil Goff; a well-known traveller and a gentleman well known for frequenting the best and most expensive restaurants all over the world and around the country. He is our Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and I believe he is able to visit extremely good restaurants in that capacity. He has a quite considerable chequebook made available to him by the taxpayer. We were both guests that day of a well-known company that has connections in New Zealand, and those people were able to show us that some New Zealand wines on that wine list were selling at a price in excess of US$30. That is NZ$60 or NZ$70. The mark-up potential for the retailer in the US is very big, and it is only to be hoped that that price is reflected in the price to the grower as our wines embrace a standard that allows more of them to be marketed in such a strong way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000790\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThe other reason why we are pleased to support this bill is that although we are not particularly in favour of excessive regulation, we do notice the significant acreage of vineyard going in around the country. The other Sunday I drove up to a small mountain village called Hanmer. I noticed on the way, at Waipara, that hundreds of acres are being planted in grapes. I have noticed also in the Marlborough area the progress of the grape across the Wairau Plains. Those vineyards are going to provide significant employment opportunities for New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000791\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThey also challenge the current Government to do something about the appallingly low incomes of New Zealanders these days. The Government is saying that New Zealand is now a $17-an-hour economy. Well, I doubt that anybody\u2014with all due respect to winegrowers\u2014working in a vineyard pruning, for example, is earning $17 an hour. In that regard there is a duty on the Government to ensure that regulation like this does not become too big an impost on that winegrower.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000792\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe also notice that a significant number of New Zealanders have their superannuation funds tied up in these vineyards that are appearing around the countryside. It is also in the interests of those people that we have an industry that is able to flourish and grow, and that can be easily recognised by the international community for its excellence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EAlthough the National Party initially greeted this bill with some degree of scepticism, we were very pleased with the response we got when we approached perhaps the greatest connoisseur of wines in this House, Mr Speaker himself, who was instrumental in ensuring that the select committee dealt with the concerns that the industry had.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000794\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ECan I further say that the issue of the lack of trust in the Government is something we will keep a strong eye on. We were surprised that it decided to put on the sherry tax a few years ago. That was supposedly because it did not want 15-year-olds drinking sherry. I have to say I have not noticed hordes of 15-year-olds racing out to the sherry shop since the Government put the price up. Frankly, they were not racing there before. We are worried that the Government may see this growing industry as a significant revenue source\u2014that is, a source of revenue over and above its natural growth. We most certainly would not want that. I can say that although the contentious issue of excise always is one on which the industry represents itself very well\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000795\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220516e2d5a960436582fec4fe63803570\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: My God, this is hard work!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958e70a806c14377a59e23dd523c5d74\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Woolerton that it was not me who called for urgency on this bill. It was not me who said that we have to plunge Parliament into urgency to pass this boring legislation; that we have to require the whole of Parliament to be here until midnight for the next 4 nights to pass this legislation. It was not me; it was that genius Dr Michael Cullen, that extraordinary manager of the Order Paper of the House. Michael Cullen would not have a clue. So here we are in the dark of night, heading towards the wee hours\u2014no, it is only half past 8. I am even bored with my own speech, having recognised the time!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000797\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI will conclude simply by saying that the National Party supports this legislation in the full belief that it has support from the industry, and with the watching brief that we do not want this sneaky, \u201Clefty\u201D Government applying additional costs to those people in the country who have invested in this very, very productive sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000798\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000799\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d919d9a53f5348368b60f2ae49c822ad\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0f6b0559ad44849a095b8bdcd42aace\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000800\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0f6b0559ad44849a095b8bdcd42aace\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the bill to be taken as one question in the Committee stage, and that there be a single, wide-ranging debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000801\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202e90df2025b4a7bb731fcb0c5864fb3\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action? There is not. The bill will be taken as one question, including the schedules.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000802\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bf2610d2568c403cb049fd72258c716c\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000803\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229136e68b995b4305831b99c3476e9988\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 143, and schedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00223362409205bb47f6ba2ab9ef39e935f2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000804\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223362409205bb47f6ba2ab9ef39e935f2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I would appreciate the Minister of Agriculture taking a call to explain fully the powers of entry for wine officers. This bill sets up a new category of policeman known as a wine officer\u2014a person who apparently has the opportunity to enter wineries and exercise all the powers given under this section of the Act, together with, I suppose, the direction of scrutiny from some Government department that I am sure will be established, to be known as the \u201CWine Department\u201D. It is not usual for Parliament to grant these sorts of powers to anybody. It is not usual for Parliament to grant to people, other than perhaps the police, excise officers, and those sorts of people, the right to enter a property quite freely to undertake some sort of activity in scrutinising what is going on in those premises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000805\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI understand there is a necessity to protect the industry in this country. However, I ask the Minister, given the extraordinary depth of capital investment that people have to make to get into the wine industry, why they would want to stuff it up\u2014because that is what the bill suggests in giving this sort of power to a wine officer\u2014by doing something dodgy in the production of their wine? I think it is over the top. Even the suggestion that they simply cannot enter a property, but have to get a warrant from any District Court judge, community magistrate, justice of the peace, or registrar, does not quite do the job. We know that it is easy to go to a justice of the peace. Justices of the peace are unlikely to turn down an officer of the law, which these people will be, so they will grant them a warrant to go jackbooting through a winery, overturning the place, and perhaps even, by their very visit, destroying the reputation of that particular winery\u2019s label. I want the Minister to explain why he thinks it is so important that these wine police are put in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000806\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThat is one of the aspects of the bill that the National Party has serious reservations about. This is an industry that to some extent survives on the reputation created by not only the winemaker but also the location of the vineyard, and, ultimately, the product that consistently comes out of that vineyard. I suggest to the Minister that an overzealous wine policeman getting a warrant to go ferreting through the activities of a particular winery could very quickly destroy the value of a label. It seems to me that if there were unscrupulous characters in the industry, it would be easy for them to go to some gullible wine policeman and say: \u201CI think you had better go and investigate my competition down the road, because they are putting X, Y, and Z in their product.\u201D, which is contrary to the consistency issues that the bill itself sets out to protect. By the wine officer undertaking that activity, there is some destruction of the label, which might have been built up over decades of family activity, of struggling to make the particular business entity work, and of competing in competitions to get a name and a good reputation. It is very important that this Committee is reassured that the necessity of these wine policemen is well understood and totally in keeping with the intention of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000807\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere is another aspect in the bill that bothers us a little bit\u2014that is, the methods by which costs may be recovered under parts of this bill. A range of fees or charges for all sorts of things are listed in the schedules, and one would assume\u2014and the Minister can clear this up\u2014that these fees and charges are not currently an impost upon those who participate in this particular sector.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022730415559d8d4abe94a88e3fab93f0b0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000808\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022730415559d8d4abe94a88e3fab93f0b0\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat wants wine officers to have to go to a JP to get a warrant before they inspect a winery. All I can say about that is what bureaucracy gone mad is that member advocating now? What new compliance costs does he want to saddle the industry with now? What unreasonable burden does he wish to place on his parliamentary bench now? I do not know. He asked why wine officers have to have the power of entry. The answer to that is very simple. This has to be a rigorous, enforceable law that can protect our winemakers from the plotting of protectionist trade-barrier creators in the marketplace on the other side of the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce8b7bea6c0b408abe9dc35c7771342c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000809\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce8b7bea6c0b408abe9dc35c7771342c\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. I realise that this Minister does not spend much time in New Zealand, but for the sake of the debate I refer him to clause 66, which makes it very clear that his law\u2014his law\u2014requires wine policemen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000810\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294e69699cf07403fbf86e40ae905abf1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. That is not a point of order. He will have plenty of time to debate that matter. I remind members that while points of order are being heard there will be silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00226fcf5b89ac4246ca9cc51d8e7d55c66b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000811\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226fcf5b89ac4246ca9cc51d8e7d55c66b\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The speech we have just heard from the potential leader of the National Party was absolute rubbish. He showed absolutely no understanding of the wine industry, at all. The thing about the wine industry is that if one label gets a bad name, then our entire industry can get a bad name. No one in the wine industry would bag another competitor just for the sake of trying to bring him or her down. It will never happen intentionally, because if one bags someone else one is shooting oneself in the foot. Our small, niche wine industry works on the cooperation of all the winegrowers and winemakers in New Zealand working together, which is why we have got such a harmonious piece of legislation. It is a pity the rest of the country cannot work together as well as the wine industry does. We have legislation here that the industry wholeheartedly supports. Is there any other legislation that has come before this Parliament since members returned for this session that has gone through so harmoniously?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000812\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThat was until we had a speech from Mr Gerry Brownlee, the National member of Parliament for \u201CElam\u201D, who is trying very hard to make a leadership bid. He has shown he has absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the wine industry. Obviously, not much wine is grown in \u201CElam\u201D, although perhaps some is consumed by its member from time to time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000813\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281d940e195fc46c98199741edcdc55fd\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is not for me to tell you how to run the Committee, but I take this opportunity to point out some matters relating to the Standing Orders. One is that a member is entitled to have the name of his or her seat correctly pronounced. I know that that member, a connoisseur of the product we are discussing here, has had a late dinner and might have a little trouble with his pronunciation. The seat is Ilam. Secondly, it is most inappropriate for a member such as that to risk personal reflections, for fear of the retribution that may soon come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000814\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dca79c2212e49859113cbe1f943c53d\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I humbly apologise. The seat is Ilam. I stand corrected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000815\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dabab7f9800a4d19a499afbb8a77a212\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Gerry Brownlee is correct: the pronunciation of his constituency should be correct. I am sure the member would want to pronounce it correctly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000816\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613046186f7f425087652e71a267f0c3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000817\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3bab37978ac486886048e604971203c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is this a new point of order, because I have ruled\u2014[Interruption] There will be silence during points of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000818\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222364332e25d84515955e45f573c9d629\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That is precisely my point of order, if you would like to hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000819\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278676f3847414db28fad41217c30d7f4\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000820\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b80741482fe34e39a5a59b3db26b92c6\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. It comes to my attention that you have made a ruling that there is to be no shouting out or interjections during points of order. When Mr Brownlee was taking his point of order Martin Gallagher, sitting behind me, was barracking on like a mad rabbit. As I got up to take my point of order Jill Pettis called out. If members from this side of the Committee do that, we are thrown out, but if one of your mates does it, he or she can stay and the rules can be laughed at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000821\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2fdaa5deaeb41998c707e7a76ac1c29\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member has no right to make those insinuations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000822\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205aa2ec32c2b48b1bdd60cbce6b36c1c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Of course I have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000823\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226c7a4efcea04730ad354d7960bdc5f8\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Mr Hide that I am on my feet giving a ruling. There were several people saying things during those points of order. I will certainly warn people finally that there will be no discussion while points of order are being taken.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000824\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e769f554b574446297c2d8783944a6b5\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000825\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef31689b613d4501ab90a1725049260c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, I have dealt with it. The member will be seated. If the member is dealing with the same point of order, he will be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000826\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231f8197d69514d118b9207d0df730735\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000827\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b57eb8ccebea4fcdaae7baef5b1a62b9\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Is it a new point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000828\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294a3e7fcaf0d4788b7b60cf22f9211cd\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: It is a new point of order. Point one is that that was your third final warning. As I got up to take my point of order, everyone heard Jill Pettis call out to me to sit down. After giving your third final warning you still did nothing. Why do you not act on what you say\u2014\u201CFinal warning: Jill Pettis out.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000829\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2cdb0374314e6dbd1a305a818d202c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I will give the ruling, and I have said that there will be no discussion during points of order\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000830\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf022727bd0148748c33901b079295c7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: She said it straight after you\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000831\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d86192a931b043d79e01dad41474bda1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: While I am on my feet and I am speaking there will be silence\u2014[Interruption] Mr Hide, that is the final warning. There will be silence when I am giving a ruling on a point of order, and I say that to all members now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000832\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee7fc967b9fd47aeaa8beafda24be9dc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. It is every member\u2019s right to take a point of order, but in so doing members need to be factually accurate, and they need to refer to the Standing Orders. I am sorry to call attention to a quite serious mistake on the part of Mr Rodney Hide. He referred to a member, Mr Martin Gallagher. Well, everyone knows that he lost his seat in 1996.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000833\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022327a4d503c5d4f5383e8580ae97e56ac\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: Please continue, Mr Jones.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000834\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4d247092bf44906bd31e2fa77626257\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise to the member for Ilam. I struck a nerve\u2014there is no doubt about that whatsoever. I draw that member\u2019s attention to the matters that were struck out by the Primary Production Committee. Members may recall that when this bill was being considered, just after the first reading, the type of wine police was mentioned on television. The clauses that were struck out from clause 112 onwards, about compliance orders and suchlike, were the clauses that New Zealand Winegrowers required be struck out, and the matter was done.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000835\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe area that I am concerned about, and that I would have thought other Opposition members might be more concerned about, is the fact that here we have a Wine Bill with a definition of wine, and I would have thought we might have a definition of fortified wine as well, because that would help us to do something in a member\u2019s bill about the taxes on fortified wine. I ask the Minister what action is being taken with regard to fortified wine, and why no steps have been taken to include in a Wine Bill matters that relate to fortified wine\u2014matters that have caused a great deal of problem in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000836\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMr Gregan\u2019s name has been mentioned a lot. It seems that he has followed in the tradition of Terry Dunleavy, whom I recall, and, of course, George Mazurin. The wine industry has done extremely well over the years; it has very, very successfully lobbied both sides of this House. I think it is a credit to the wine industry, and it is also an indication to other people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000837\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ad233f4f5b904e39b0c52bf6bad49c30\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. You would have seen this coming, as you have been watching it, as I have. We have Jill Pettis over there swapping recipes with Steve Chadwick, and we have Martin Gallagher over there swapping recipes with a United Future member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000838\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1176b6f6784917b885243c9402b5b2\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: As the member knows, the whips are entitled to move around. No one\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000839\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a132499f99f4edcbf68c932793b2e6d\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: It was one of the whips who was\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000840\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c76b2ac037f420eb3356d86f8c2fdeb\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The whips, as we have said before, are entitled to move around to speak to members. No other members should be standing. I have warned Mr Gallagher once about that tonight. It is very disconcerting to the speaker, and it is not very polite. I tell all members to show respect to the speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000841\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201edb7ad61154e6e9a46357a4dc73110\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It was not really causing me any problems. But I note that is the second time the National Party has interrupted my speech for New Zealand First. Obviously, I have hit a sore nerve for the National Party and for Gerry Brownlee, the member for Ilam, with his recent failed leadership bid. [Interruption] Yes, and I saw the light a long time ago. One of the interesting things in this legislation is the removal of honey wine, and the retention of mead, with an interesting interpretation of it. I am pleased that the select committee took note when I warned the Minister last year in my first reading speech\u2014and Mr Woolerton made this point\u2014of the consequences of this particular legislation. I refer to Hansard, Volume 603, at page 1526. New Zealand First is very, very delighted that the warning given in the first reading came to fruition during the select committee process, and action was taken on that warning. The select committee should be congratulated on taking notice of the warning. The way in which the select committee conducted itself with Mr Gregan has been exemplary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000842\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EBut I just ask the Minister, taking into account all the interruptions, why fortified wine was not included in this legislation. It would have been a wonderful opportunity to do something about it, and concern has been expressed about that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002232229c9117a14587951270837e652ac4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000843\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002232229c9117a14587951270837e652ac4\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to speak to these various clauses during this Committee stage, and I indicated that in my first speech. But before I do, I would like to thank the Minister in the chair\u2014the \u201CMinister of Fart Tax\u201D\u2014for standing up and giving us an oration on what he did not understand about this bill. When we in the select committee\u2014I as a member, and my colleagues\u2014first received the bill, and David Carter will confirm this, we actually had a bill twice as thick as this one, which was filled with compliance costs. We made the changes\u2014took the knife to it and carved out those compliance costs. Yes, there are still some there, but the Minister seems to be unaware of that. In fact, I can say that, of the submitters, and there were over 100, a large number claimed that the bill could over-regulate the wine industry, and stifle innovation and development. That has happened in every industry in this country for the last 4 years through regulation, legislation, compliance costs, and taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000844\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EIn fact, the Committee will recall that on 6 May 2003, the Government went into urgency, as we are now, except I believe that it was extraordinary urgency, and spoke until the early hours of the morning when the National Party defended the right of old ladies to have a sherry without it costing them a fortune.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000845\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227083c0a0bcaf409a9363cbbea5ae5c7e\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: A mean and uncaring Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000846\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a97052c5ed74d61aaad2a5994b70cc6\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. At that time the Government went into extraordinary urgency on the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill, otherwise known as the sherry tax, arguing that it would put up the price of alcohol to youngsters to keep them off the streets and to keep them from drinking. The interesting thing at that time was that the alcohol involved was 14 to 23 percent by volume, and that affects sherry. Not many teenagers drink sherry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000847\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283c993022928461fb6ef576911ef1613\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The teenager over there does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000848\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda5b5071fab48ae8f5e6c46bbe9ac79\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: There is a teenager over there, that is right\u2014the young member over there. Alcohol of a strength of 14 to 23 percent by volume would net the Government $18 million this year and next year. As Gerry Brownlee, the member for Ilam, said, it would be straight out of grandma\u2019s pocket. At that stage the wine industry stood up to the Government and said \u201CNo more\u201D, that it could not cope with all of that. That is just one compliance cost that I would like to indicate to the Minister that the wine industry has had to face. It would have had to face much more if it had not been for work by the select committee to cut out all the regulation and legislation we were faced with when we first received this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000849\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere is a rigid and inflexible bureaucracy in the European Union, and we all know that. Certainly, the \u201CMinister of Fart Tax\u201D knows that, because he spends most of his time overseas on the other side of the world and not fronting up to constituents here. He knows all about the European Union, so he will know that over there, bureaucracy has strangled that wine industry. I am not too sure whether there are wine police in the European Union, with all sorts of uncertain powers, going through the books of winery businesses and having a taste of the product. I do not know whether the Minister has followed wine police in the European Union, but I wonder whether he is interested in what the powers will be for wine police in New Zealand. Has the Minister considered that after a morning of visiting a number of wineries his wine officers may need a designated driver and a police escort to do their job? Has the Minister considered that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000850\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a0844e92b8348aaafd219fad0ed677b\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Ruth Dyson might have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000851\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a3c6c188154249b75b83488351431e\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: I could not comment on Ruth Dyson. I do not think that is appropriate. But has the Minister considered that compliance cost when passing this bill? Apart from accident compensation regulations and employment relations regulations, and the increase in taxes, the compliance costs originally in this bill were excessive, and we took a knife to that. I have already thanked Philip Gregan for helping us out with that and I would like to do so again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1807d1dddde491cb32cf3ce47ed7686\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000852\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1807d1dddde491cb32cf3ce47ed7686\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I shall pick up on the questions raised by my colleague Phil Heatley and ask the Minister why he felt we had to hear so many submissions and so much angst amongst the submitters. I suggest that if he does not have the answer I shall take him through to explain to him the need for the alterations we made. There was widespread submission about the positioning of clause 128. For those members interested, that is the clause around consultation and notification. The concern expressed to us that required some significant work by the select committee was the issue of consultation. I take this opportunity to advise the Minister that the distrust in which the industry held the Labour Government was caused by the sherry tax to which my colleague Phil Heatley has just referred. Not only were discussions occurring between the industry and the Minister as the bill was devised, but at the same time other Cabinet colleagues of the Minister wrote to various members of the industry saying that no further tax increases would be imposed by surprise. Then as Mr Heatley has reminded the House tonight, we were slammed into urgency and we worked through the night fighting gallantly to avoid grandma\u2019s tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000853\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThat is the basis on which we made a significant change to clause 3, \u201CObjects of Act\u201D, and we took the opportunity to insert a new clause 3(da), which meant that the fundamental object of the legislation is to promote consultation with industry organisations on the regulation of the industry as an aid to fostering efficiency in growth in the New Zealand wine industry. I have to say that even as the legislation now passes through the House, there is still an element of concern amongst the industry as we move from the legislative stage to the regulation-making stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000854\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAs many members in this House will know, in legislation such as this, the devil is in the detail. Regulations will be required, and we accept that, but I certainly hope that there will be widespread meaningful consultation with the industry as those regulations develop. Following the process the select committee went through, officials of the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry would have appreciated the need to foster that relationship. I certainly do not criticise them in any way whatsoever. However, it is important for the Minister also to appreciate the importance of genuine consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000855\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EA great deal of harm was done to the relationship by the $18 million tax increase, or grandma\u2019s sherry increase; that sort of mistrust is easy to create, and often it is very, very difficult to regain support and confidence. After all, the Minister, with his recent escapades with the flatulence tax, knows exactly how easy it is to upset a community by simply promoting bad, bad policy. That is the principal clause I wish to speak on in this contribution\u2014the significant changes the select committee made, strongly enforcing the requirement of consultation, moving it to the front of the bill, and the alteration to clause 3 with the insertion of new paragraph (da). \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000856\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMy second point is about the submission received from winegrowers regarding the positioning of clause 128. The committee gave a lot of thought to moving that clause, because that request was made to us. On reflection, and on seeking advice, we were advised that to do so would give an inconsistent tone to the bill, and the committee happily accepted that recommendation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ebe9693f8a534b95bdf48cc483bb094e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000857\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ebe9693f8a534b95bdf48cc483bb094e\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (National\u2014Piako):\u003C/span\u003E I shall take a brief call on this very important legislation. I was fortunate to sit on the select committee in Christchurch. However, not being a wine connoisseur, I know very little about the industry. I am known as one who went to a restaurant and when someone asked me whether I wanted a Sauvignon Blanc, I asked whether that was a red or a white. That was my understanding\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000858\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f365c2d0152f47fcaf1162b18bc932a6\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Where were your French lessons?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000859\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e524d2da36243a7af60336f568376b0\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I did not take French, so French is not one of my fortes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000860\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220fe826ceb7ce470a85bc698b63f4449d\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s friend is Johnny Walker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000861\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f8aff3d757a4e1f901b6ae03d092dd1\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: There we have it. We have talked about the granny tax, and if we look at clauses 85 to 97 on compliance costs, huge compliance costs have already been mentioned in this debate. One of the issues in all legislation that this Government has become very prone to is to bring in charges that will affect an industry, by way of regulation. Phil Heatley and my colleague David Carter talked about the sherry tax. That tax was imposed with a view to stopping younger-age drinking or binge drinking. Who are the people who would be affected by that? The alcohol volume in those drinks was much higher than anything younger people would be interested in. It was those older folk, who like to have their wine and sherry before they go to bed. The young member over there who wants to criticise and make comments about the habits of people should reflect that this Government has done the industry a disservice and an injustice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000862\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E I want to come back to the work that was done by the chairperson of the select committee. I was impressed with his knowledge and understanding. All the members made a contribution to that select committee process, and I sat on the select committee, once only, down in Christchurch. I pay a special tribute to the Hon David Carter, because he steered through a major change from the original drafting, as we have heard tonight in the second reading and Committee stage speeches. We have seen that a cut-and-slash approach has been through and taken out some compliance that was not in the industry\u2019s interests. It was a bill that had been hastily prepared. Legislation should be industry driven. It should be what the industry requires and wants, and we have heard tonight that the current bill is a vast improvement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000863\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, I am not a wine drinker, but I certainly appreciate the fine wines of people who understand the industry. I was in the fortunate position last year of being in Spain, and in Madrid in particular. Some New Zealand wine importers were at a function at the ambassador\u2019s home. The reputation of New Zealand wines was such that those people were saying to us\u2014Bernie Ogilvy and Jill Pettis, the junior Government whip, were there and will appreciate what I am saying\u2014that they could not get enough New Zealand wine. The reputation of New Zealand wine was such that it was outstripping French wine. The Spaniards were more interested in buying New Zealand wine than they were in wine from across the border in France. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000864\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand wine has a reputation throughout the world, not just in New Zealand. When we looked at the expanding markets within the European Union, and as we travelled through France to the UK, we saw that the reputation of New Zealand wine had preceded it. If members have ever spent time in the United States, they will know that on the Pacific rim\u2014the western seaboard of the United States, particularly California\u2014New Zealand wine has a high reputation. This bill allows the industry to have some transparency and accountability. National supports the bill we are now debating, which has come about under the chairmanship of the Hon David Carter, and we are pleased to be part of that process. I draw the Committee\u2019s attention to those particular clauses\u2014[Interruption] I just sought another call, so I will continue in the same vein. I draw the Committee\u2019s attention\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000865\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c55f60a336484db09f1194df6a3e59aa\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: He isn\u2019t even speaking to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000866\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284a5078ce915461c9b9a3d74b291e7cc\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I am. I am talking about clauses 85 to 97, which\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Chairperson. When I sought leave that the bill be taken as one question, the House gave me leave for a wide-ranging debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000867\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022778fb27b745c4cc9865e731df3161ed7\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite correct. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000868\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022880fabb19c6c4e69854ced348c986926\u0022\u003E LINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I bring the Committee\u2019s attention to that, because there was a comment made by the New Zealand First member that I was not speaking to the bill. I want to assure members that I am speaking to the bill, because I did attempt\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000869\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3b596c8f21b4c0da64eaf70585a84c9\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Would you reach the microphone if you weren\u2019t standing on the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000870\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8537ead098941ed832f1f8b7e26ab37\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: I am standing. I want to draw the Committee\u2019s attention to clauses 85 to 97, because those provisions contain the compliance costs that we see in so much legislation today, which is one of the issues that National has with any legislation. I have called it regulatory creep. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000871\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e949637a384b66aecc7902425c5bea\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: No new taxes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000872\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225af396e246a1458da0974cfab4d3fd4a\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: This is a Government that said there would be no new taxes, yet we have had 18 new taxes. We sat in the House under urgency one night, which members will remember, and increased the tax for those poor, elderly people who like to have their port and sherry. The Hon Dr Nick Smith had the bottles lined up here, which showed that the younger people whom that piece of legislation was aimed at do not drink those ports and sherries. They are into those ready-made drinks, which I do not know much about because I am not a connoisseur. The member has just handed me a couple of examples. This one is a schnapps Archers Aqua orange, with 5.5 percent alcohol by volume. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000873\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4cf817f89b64ae8b99161915edb1aa8\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: They wouldn\u2019t be covered by the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000874\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf90bc067e34467da59ec65416e13bae\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH\u003C/span\u003E: They are not covered by the bill. The point we made was that that tax was increased at that time, which did a disservice to the whole industry. The Government\u2019s increasing taxes and compliance costs while this bill was being debated in its early stages did the wine industry no good. That is why I go back to the point I have been making. It was the Hon David Carter, as chair, and members of the National team who were able to bring some sense, accountability, and transparency into the bill we are debating tonight. National has great pleasure in supporting it, because we were very much part of making this user-friendly legislation, and the wine industry has supported it, but I still come back to clauses 85 to 97, which relate to the high compliance costs that we will have to deal with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000875\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EI also want to go back to clauses 56, 57, and so on, which concern the wine officers. These are extraordinary provisions. There will be people called \u201Cwine officers\u201D who will police the regulations. They will have the power to get search warrants and enter property. That came up earlier when the member for Ilam, Gerry Brownlee, spoke. He talked about how one had to go and get a search warrant from a JP, District Court judge, community magistrate, or registrar, under clause 66, \u201CIssue of search warrant\u201D. I ask the Minister in the chair, Jim Sutton, to take a call on that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000876\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003EThe wine officers have extraordinary powers, and one would hope that those powers are not misdirected. Those powers are there for the benefit of the industry. We would like to make sure that that is the fact. Nothing concerns me more than people being given powers and thinking they can go out there and do anything they like. We are interested in the well-being of the industry. We want to make sure that wine officers do have the mandate and that their role is clearly defined. Otherwise, we will find that the industry will be disadvantaged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac8ef582c10f4d448c011c3d82f6d5ff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000877\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac8ef582c10f4d448c011c3d82f6d5ff\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I might not have taken another call if it were not for the fact that I was provoked by the three National Party speakers who spoke about the night when we had the sherry tax debate in the House, and commented about how hard they worked that night. As I recall that debate, when we came to the final vote at 5 in the morning, there were 13 New Zealand First votes against the sherry tax, and\u2014wait a minute\u2014there were 10 National Party votes that night. There were 13 New Zealand First votes and 10 National Party votes. National members say that they are hard-working, yet that shows how hard they fought against that tax. They had 10 votes. I am not sure how the system works, but that suggests to me that there might have been about five out of 27 National Party members around the building that night to vote against the sherry tax. So 22 of them were nicely tucked up in bed, having had a sip of port or sherry, perhaps, and only five of them were left here that night, whereas we had 13. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000878\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOur leader, the Rt Hon Winston Peters, was here. He made the last speech on that bill that night. The Rt Hon Winston Peters fought to the end for the rights of the working classes, who were having their port and sherry taxes put up. We in New Zealand First were fighting hard. The National Party had 10 votes. About five of those members huddled around the Chamber\u2014[Interruption] I would not have raised this issue if it were not for the fact that the National members were banging on so much about it. Sometimes they really do shoot themselves in the foot. They have raised that issue, though they behaved ignominiously on that particular night, when they went home to bed and left New Zealand First to do all the fighting on that tax. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000879\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as wine officers are concerned, I do not want to rub the point in, because I think I have done that well enough. We have made that well known to everybody. I would expect that if New Zealand wants to improve the quality of its wine, and wants to assure overseas countries that there is transparency\u2014that is the famous word that we used today\u2014and that we have high standards, we have to prove that we have a means of policing that. We cannot sell wine overseas with a New Zealand label of quality wine, unless we can prove to the French or the Americans\u2014and the Americans seem to be worse than the French\u2014that we have people checking that the quality of our wine is first-rate. The National members have sat on this bill for months and months, and they do not seem to know what they were doing or why they were doing it. I was not even a member of the Primary Production Committee. However, when I made my maiden speech in 1976, I spoke on wine. I have taken an interest in it and have been in the west Auckland area. That is why we have wine officers; it as simple as that. It is extraordinary that the National members should have filibustered all this evening on something that was obvious. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000880\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe other point to bear in mind is that the director-general finally issues the notices. It is the director-general who has that responsibility, and, under clause 128, it is the director-general who must consult, and if he or she does not do so, the director-general is in breach of a statutory duty. That is not the duty of Jim Anderton or whomever the Minister is. The director-general has a statutory duty to consult, and the Minister must check with the director-general. If there is no consultation, it is the director-general\u2019s job that would be on the line, in terms of the State Service Commission\u2019s requirements. That would be a term of the employment of the director-general, in so far as the wine industry is concerned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000881\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat were the National members doing on the select committee, for goodness\u2019 sake? They cannot understand the need for proper control of wine or for ensuring the export of proper quality wine. They cannot understand that the wine industry is a unified industry, wanting to work together for the interests of the industry. The fact is that when we had a big debate on port and sherry wine, those members were not here in the Chamber. They were not here to listen to the debate. If they had been here to listen to the New Zealand First members telling them how these things are done, they might have learnt a thing or two. But I see their numbers are down again tonight as well in the voting, and maybe that is the whole problem. The National members are never willing to learn, and they know nothing about the wine industry, despite having spent so much time on it in the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022317e767f65d6445bb862167f804bd2f8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000882\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022317e767f65d6445bb862167f804bd2f8\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E The member who has just resumed his seat was quite right. The reason for having wine officers, and the reason they are given powers of entry, is so that we can demonstrate to the world that we have a rigorous law governing the quality and standards of wine, and that we have the means to enforce it. That is it; it is very simple. The National Party members should have been able to grasp that over the many months that the Primary Production Committee was working on the bill. I would have thought they would get it by now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000883\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThere was also a lot of discussion while the National and New Zealand First members squabbled over who was most put out when the tax was increased on sherry and port. I know they will take this personally, but I do have to ask myself whether this is the same National Party and the same New Zealand First Party that were in cahoots when they promised that the wine excise would be removed, and the only tax on alcoholic liquors would be GST. Yes, they are is the selfsame parties. That just goes to show that when members are so assiduous in their researching of a topic, they damage their grey cells and cannot remember things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000884\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI want to say to members that we know this debate will not go for much longer, because the National members want to get away and have their secret caucus meeting before they go home for the weekend. We are all dying to learn what the outcome will be, and who will be\u2014oh, I should not say those words, although this is a wide-ranging debate, as one of the members who spoke has pointed out. This is a wide-ranging debate, so I dare say it is entirely relevant that we consider who may be the next \u201Cback-down Bill\u201D\u2014or the next leader of the National Party. Some of the National members, who may be hiding behind their benches, are plotting. They must be somewhere, doing something. They may be hiding behind their benches, planning their secret caucus meeting and who their next leader will be. It is obvious that their attention has not been fully engaged by this bill, so there must be something else on their minds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00227095bb2fa7c14efdb33ff2d61625582a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000885\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227095bb2fa7c14efdb33ff2d61625582a\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E First, I want to return a remark or two to the New Zealand First Party\u2014a party well known for its party spirit, and for its ability to make considerably important decisions at very small hours in the morning. How is it that a party led by none other than the Rt Hon Winston Peters, a man who often proclaims himself to be a friend of the producers of this country, is now buying into the argument being advanced by the Minister that the only way the world can be assured that New Zealand produces good wine is to have a Government inspector put a stamp on it? The only way we can be sure that New Zealand wine is good is if it has a gold medal from a Government inspector! I think that is a sad day for the industry, and a very sad representation of an industry by a party that, I am afraid, is way out of touch with what is going on in the commercial world in New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000886\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the appallingly low incomes that New Zealanders have to endure under this Labour Government. A couple of weeks ago the Government Statistician produced new income figures for New Zealand. Members might be a little confused about why I am talking about that during the debate on the Wine Bill. Fortunately, in his bit of a whine to the Committee, the Minister opened this debate to very wide-ranging topics, so I want to make it very clear that New Zealanders are becoming poorer by the day under this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000887\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the most fascinating statistics produced by the statistician was that if the income of all New Zealanders from wages and salaries was aggregated\u2014part time and full time\u2014the income from that source alone is only $337 a week per person in the workforce. That tells us that lots of New Zealanders are struggling out there. Lots of New Zealanders have trouble buying just the groceries, let alone contemplating buying a bottle of gold medal, Government inspector \u2013 stamped wine. Then there is the issue of people who are full time in the workforce. Full-time wage and salary earners are now earning $550-odd a week. Then we got a crowing statement from the Government that that represented a 5 percent increase, and was it not doing well! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000888\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI noticed something\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e93b0d4709fc46ddb7eeadfa7feda14e\u0022\u003EHon Matt Robson\u003C/span\u003E: You have never bothered to struggle in the supermarket.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000890\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ab31fe2fa6f4769a35ae4faa65a0837\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: I do walk around supermarkets, Mr Robson, and I have noticed that many people put products out of place around the supermarket. They have gone about with their trolleys and taken the items they wanted, but suddenly worked out that they cannot afford them, and have had to ditch them all over the place. That member should look out for it next time. It would be a new experience for someone from the Alliance, the Progressive party, and the \u201CWhat Other Name Can We Come Up With Next Party?\u201D, to go around the supermarket like ordinary people do a couple of times a week. If that member did, he would see that people are having to make hard choices about the food they buy for their families, because this Government has them screwed down on very low incomes. Unbelievable! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000891\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022205eec2159e24fed9894eb29a4a41074\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: That is right for the great city of Wellington, but Fendalton supermarkets? Get a life!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000892\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8730fcacc104f63a94a3793e405d07b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Well, there we have it. Marian Hobbs, the Christchurch deserter, is referring to the Fendalton New World supermarket\u2014a supermarket very well run, I might say, by the Turner family for over 67 years\u2014and suggesting that people who go to that supermarket do not have a problem. It might interest the Hon Marian Hobbs to know that my electorate has one of the highest number of State houses in the country. I want to tell that member that despite their income-related rents, those people will continue to vote for me, because they know that I have an interest in their well-being\u2014unlike the Labour Party that enjoys their poverty. This is the Government that spouts that New Zealanders, from all sources of wages and salaries, are now earning an average of $337 a week, and says: \u201CAren\u2019t they well off?\u201D. That is the typical Helen Clark response.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022105f63dfd6a14c199a8e1af3a26bceb1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I realise this is a robust debate. However\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000894\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2343b2e052e4feea2b7f50531e18eaf\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Wide-ranging now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000895\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fbf5312af7847feb271e74d210b36a3\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and it is a wide-ranging debate. However, I would remind members from all sides of the Chamber that they need to come back to the Wine Bill now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1163fbae5a04988aaf9c78ede1e50d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000896\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1163fbae5a04988aaf9c78ede1e50d5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I am very happy to take a call and speak to the Wine Bill. I want to thank the Minister for finally taking a call. We have been asking questions all night about why he could put such a messy bill before the Primary Production Committee. He finally stood up and took a call\u2014but I do not think he talked about wine at all. He did a lot of whining, but I did not hear him talk about the Wine Bill at all. I heard him at one stage talk about the \u201CBack-down Bill\u201D. I thought that was appropriate. He is the Minister, who in only the last few days has backed down completely on the proposed bill coming before the House and\u2014it was due any day\u2014to enforce the flatulence tax. That is what the current Minister in the chair, the Hon Jim Sutton, will be remembered for. When he gives his valedictory speech, it will not be much use because people will not remember him for the Wine Bill. I will remember tonight, when we asked questions for a couple of hours and the Minister sat there reading his comic, because he did not know much about the Wine Bill. People will remember that Minister as being the man who proposed the flatulence tax, and then finally had to back down. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000897\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI was also intrigued by the very interesting comments from the New Zealand First member when he reminded us of the night we battled until 4 a.m. or a quarter to 5 in the morning on the \u201CGrandmas\u2019 tax\u201D. [Interruption] It was 5 o\u2019clock, he reminds us. He also reminded us that the National Party battled through those many hours of debate as it fought to stop that tax\u2014fought gallantly\u2014and that the New Zealand First team suddenly appeared at voting time. Mr Dail Jones should look back at the records. There were minimal contributions from that member. There were minimal contributions from any New Zealand First members on that evening. But he has confirmed to the Committee that the vote being taken at a quarter to 5 was clearly after the closing time of the Green Parrot, which must have been at half past four.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000898\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225858871173f54d7099675e575857b6ad\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019d drunk the wine; they\u2019d drunk it all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000899\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a38d9135f02d4d6b892e4cca81310a82\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm or deny that. I was not there. But along they came, into the House, and finally managed to vote against the \u201Csherry tax\u201D. I want to thank the members for doing so, because the National Party gallantly fought that fight through the early hours of the morning, taking call after call. I just hope that the New Zealand First members, as they arrived at work, appreciated the way we had kept that debate going for hours and hours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000900\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to finish by talking briefly about the bill, and commenting on the superb job the select committee did in carving out so much of the bill, with regard to compliance orders. I want to reinforce the point made earlier that there was a very good reason for taking out the part that the industry found absolutely objectionable\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000901\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b61324522e4a7bbd8280cbb9c894c5\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: A listening Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000902\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247d329826c304bb7a6470444ef907d38\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E I say to Mr Maharey that if the Government had listened, the select committee would not have had hours and hours and days and days of work to do tidying up that mess. There was a suggestion made, in fact, that the Government had listened, and that there was a high degree of agreement amongst the industry for the bill as it was presented to the select committee\u2014and then we were besieged by hundreds of submissions. They all said the same thing: the Government promised to listen, we had a bit of a round of consultation, and then the Government ignored what the industry was saying completely. So there is Mr Maharey\u2019s idea of listening. He would go around the road shows, such as they have on at the moment regarding public access\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000903\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223939fed6d3e441229a527944759f6c77\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, they\u2019re going well, those public meetings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000904\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd27552ea44b468284e17a6fc9eca3b7\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I ask Mr Power whether they are a bit like the huis. Yes, the Government has a great spin job going at the moment\u2014but we are talking about the Wine Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000905\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI remind Mr Maharey that if Government members are going to consult, then they should do some listening and not present a mess to a select committee, as they did on this occasion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000906\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f25dc210746048c296038f14828803f1\u0022\u003EHon Steve Maharey\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000907\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3b59e2e8e1e438292497322eed1a2c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased to hear him saying that is OK. So we have won that battle, and we have won on the flatulence tax. The next one we have to win is public access.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00227b7d030c00f64174ba8dc18a12013153\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000908\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227b7d030c00f64174ba8dc18a12013153\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002209c936790bc84a7d9afda3efae01d8a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000909\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002209c936790bc84a7d9afda3efae01d8a8\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E There is no doubt about it. The social fabric of New Zealand will be to some extent destroyed by the Government\u2019s proposal to stop smoking in bars. There is no question about that at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000910\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed73825a0bfa4d7ebbeaad09c989ca7b\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: I warn the member to bring his speech back to the Wine Bill, please.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000911\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222682f7f859d54655a3c2498c81f59c04\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: One of the other things that people enjoy in those bars is wine. I think it is an outrageous proposal that the only way they can be assured about the wine they are drinking now, it seems\u2014as the Minister has told us\u2014is if that wine has a Government stamp on it. What a backward-looking Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000912\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c06df88a64ea45c6952dfde169391a72\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Carless days.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000913\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022014c546394f6449b8637be3ec7173e5f\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: That was us, actually, so we do not want to talk about that. But one of the great things about carless days was that we could visit bars and not be worried about driving home. The point, though, is that it is just not fair or reasonable for the Government to promote the idea that in passing this legislation it has somehow done the industry a particular favour. All the Government has done, after months and months, is finally find some time in Parliament. It is members\u2019 time, I might say, because we are not able to ask questions of the Government over the next couple of days\u2014mainly because we know how much trouble Government members get into every time they are asked a question. We know that they do not like the scrutiny they are being put under. So here we are, taking some members\u2019 time to pass this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000914\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe want to see this bill passed for the industry. There are aspects of it that are clearly necessary. The Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade really does do himself a huge disservice by suggesting that the only way in which New Zealand\u2019s wine industry can progress, grow, and be respected by buyers off shore is if there is a Government stamp on the wine. I want to know what the proposal is for training all these wine officers. What will make them so capable of issuing the stamp?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000915\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b08d638926d648148519da88e195d39b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Rick Barker will do well at that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000916\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b67dfe86d24b788c124ea0d5e2e291\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: My friend Simon Power suggests that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000917\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c985d043fb604feca3eaf57b267a9d66\u0022\u003EGovernment Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000918\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225232db45006a4a15a81b2c07c3e2f8d2\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Settle down! We have an appointment at 9.30\u2014the whole lot of us. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000919\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E The new wine officers may be appointed by the Hon Rick Barker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000920\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263b3fbcfd8fa4d0eae35c915606acf1b\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Good call, he does JPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000921\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ad26551623f4ecd85bd4e437fdce8ed\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: He appoints JPs now and he does a fine job of that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000922\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the great advantages of the Minister being able to appoint wine officers is that when he comes to the Chamber with his clear plastic file\u2014which we can see clean through when we look across the House\u2014he will have some papers to put inside it. We would then have the assurance that that was the Government\u2019s transparent way of appointing these officers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000923\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI started my speech by coupling the issue of smoking in bars with this bill. It seems to me that there is a freedom issue involved in this bill, as well. While the industry may want to have all wine produced in New Zealand certified as being of a particular quality, I would have thought that having the industry itself run such an organisation might have been better than having the Government set up its own bureaucracy around these so-called \u201Cwine policemen\u201D. It is a very antiquated idea that the only way anyone can be assured that a bottle of wine produced in New Zealand is of a particular quality, is to refer to the Government stamp. That puts us back in the Dark Ages somewhat, as does the idea that people who are capable of earning their own income, and capable of making most choices in their lives, cannot go into a public bar and smoke cigarettes. But apparently it is going to be OK for those same people to buy marijuana and smoke that in all sorts of places. It is just hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbace6748cc64306b6a8a940e57d521b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000924\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbace6748cc64306b6a8a940e57d521b\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000925\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000926\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 162 in the name of the Hon Jim Sutton to clause 61 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000927\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to, and clauses 1 to 143 and schedules, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000928\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000929\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b17d74a55ed48c38bd0279f84baf081\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u002239c557d209e94478800924d787c394cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000930\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239c557d209e94478800924d787c394cf\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Wine Bill be now read a third time. This is a good bill, initiated at the request of the industry. It cleans up the mess left by the previous National Government, a regime under which a few rogue winemakers were emboldened to misrepresent the contents of their bottles, thereby endangering the reputation and future of an entire industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000931\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThis bill will ensure that the excellent international reputation of New Zealand export wine is maintained. It will ensure that consumers of our products, both locally and internationally, are totally confident that what they are drinking is not only safe, but is what they want to consume. The bill strikes a good regulatory balance\u2014not so heavy as to stifle innovation, yet not so light that confidence in New Zealand wine is diminished. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000932\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe industry has expanded rapidly and now brings in $281 million in export earnings. The Labour Government recognises the importance of this sector for New Zealand\u2019s prosperity. The industry faces a worldwide glut in wine, and the New Zealand grape wine industry is forecasting significant growth in the volume of wine produced here. Such competition only increases the industry\u2019s need for strong legislation to facilitate exports. The Government has provided the platform for industry growth. It does not tell winemakers how to make wine, but simply ensures they have the base on which to grow exports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000933\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThe bill makes consultation a central focus, which is one of the objectives of clause 3. This will require the regulator and the wine industry to work together for win-win outcomes under the Act. This, in turn, should help ensure that the bill better facilitates the industry\u2019s continued ability to compete on the international stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000934\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EI appreciate that it will take winemakers time to become familiar with what the bill does and how it works. This is one reason why the bill provides for transition periods, and during those times and thereafter requires the regulator to consult winemakers, and their industry bodies, about regulation of the industry. I note that many of the elements that will make up wine standards management plans are already in industry codes of practice. These will require only minor modification to fit within the new regulatory framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000935\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003EThis bill deserves the support of the House, as it delivers appropriate legislation to govern the making and export of wine. The Government has delivered what the wine industry sought from it. I commend the bill to the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022250b30e9fdba43a1ad49cf6d400ce520\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000936\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022250b30e9fdba43a1ad49cf6d400ce520\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister has not been responsible for delivering what the industry wanted. The Primary Production Committee did the work that the Minister should have done, and that select committee should take pride in finally delivering legislation that the industry finds acceptable. After 4 long years the Labour Government finally has this legislation before the House, and I do not think for 1 minute that the industry will be fooled by the speech that has just been delivered by the Minister, who claims that this process has been a good one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000937\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe industry was shocked into submitting 115 submissions when the bill was presented to the select committee, because it felt that the consultation process it had been promised had totally betrayed it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000938\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E What a mess it was that was presented to us. The Minister should be ashamed to think that he allowed the process to go through his office and be finally ticked off\u2014a process causing consternation to the industry and involving it in hundreds of hours of submissions. Philip Gregan of New Zealand Winemakers came on board to work with the select committee as a special adviser, as the committee worked to tidy up the mess that was delivered by the Hon Jim Sutton. After listening to the Minister\u2019s contribution, which has just concluded, I think the most telling statement he made was: \u201CThis bill does not tell winemakers how to make wine.\u201D It is very telling, indeed, that even tonight, in the third reading, Mr Sutton says that this bill does not tell winemakers how to make wine.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000939\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d670a4ea34e0418a9d8275d3633025e7\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: He would like it to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab66038c9982482cba590f5ca0b6deed\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly! As Mr Woolerton interjects, it suggests to me that that was considered. Helen Clark probably sat up on the ninth floor of the Beehive, thinking that she knew how to make wine\u2014that she knew better than the industry that is about to deliver $750 million of export dollars to this country. The Labour Government, which tells us how to lead our lives, how to bring up our children, and whether we are allowed to smoke, was about to tell the wine industry how to make wine. So thank God, on this occasion, that did not get into the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000941\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn my earlier contribution to the second reading, I paid tribute to the wine industry. It is a remarkable industry that is held in high esteem around the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000942\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e193a716db94dfcb31d1908ec374e21\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Unlike the National Party.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000943\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb033d77941643a7b950aeb2e9cf3fa5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister of Finance interrupts and suggests that the National Party does not hold the wine industry in high esteem. We might not be known as Chardonnay socialists, but I assure the Minister that we do appreciate the contribution the wine industry makes to New Zealand, and we do appreciate the $250 million worth of export earnings the country has received from it in the last financial year. I am very disappointed that the Minister of Finance interrupts with such a silly, inane comment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000944\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI want to talk about the reason why the select committee faced such an angry submission arena. It was because the industry felt so totally betrayed in respect of the sherry tax. The industry had been told\u2014in fact, it had been promised\u2014and Mr Anderton had written to the industry, saying that under no circumstances would there be any surprise taxes and increases in excise. That was the wording. The letter was presented to us at the select committee. Within weeks of Jim Anderton signing that letter out, the House went into extraordinary urgency to pass the sherry tax\u2014after that promise had been made. I note that Government members hang their heads in shame, and they ought to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000945\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f302c5a302c4ab3a4cb97e7bf30a983\u0022\u003EPhil Heatley\u003C/span\u003E: Taxing my grandmother!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000946\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a940e74700c0499dad7a52f2a8b6f5c3\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Heatley\u2019s grandmother was affected. I think lots of grandmothers were affected. What was most galling about that tax was that speaker after speaker on that side of the House, amongst the Labour Party, listened to Jim Anderton and accepted his argument that the tax was being advanced in the House because we had to curb youth drinking. I say to Jim Anderton that he should get a life. He should get down to the strip in Christchurch, or go with Winston Peters to Courtenay Place on the odd occasion, and have a look at what young people are drinking. They are not drinking sherry or port. I say to the Government that it should not advance a large tax increase, when it will not make any difference to the level of alcohol being consumed by young New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000947\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn turning to the process by which the select committee heard the submissions and then decided how best to proceed, I want to welcome the decision we made to ask New Zealand Winegrowers to allow Phil Gregan, its chief executive, to work on the issues with us, and with the officials servicing the committee, to see whether we could find some consensus on them. It was a process that I think worked very well. I thank Mr Gregan for his contribution. I think that the committee, by having his expertise and contribution, has presented back to Parliament a bill that is far more substantial and far more robust than the one advanced to it in the first place. There was the issue around cost compliance and cost recovery. We listened and understood that the industry was concerned about, or felt betrayed by, the previous tax that had recently been passed, but at the end of the day most parties in the select committee accepted the need for the industry to be prepared to meet the costs associated with the implementation of this legislation. Only one party saw fit to advance a minority report in that regard. I appreciate the comments made by that particular party, but I think that it was perhaps unaware of the need for the legislation\u2014the original request for the legislation having come from the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000948\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EAll in all, the process has meant that a very credible piece of legislation is being passed here tonight. I take the opportunity to thank members of the select committee for working with me through the issues and for advancing legislation that I think is credible. The National Party has pleasure in supporting the Wine Bill in its third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00225d61dac0abeb49e5afeebc9a8b537399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000949\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d61dac0abeb49e5afeebc9a8b537399\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In spite of what the Hon Jim Sutton said, I would like to congratulate the wine industry, or more particularly the farmers, the viticulturalists, and the people who make up that industry, because it is they who all those years ago started to make an industry that now contributes substantial funds to New Zealand. I particularly remember, when growing up in my district, the Milicich family\u2014a family whose business has now turned into Vilagrad Wines. It has become all upmarket. I want formally to thank that family for helping out a very hard-working young man who worked for very low wages and for very long hours, and who, unfortunately, was not allowed into the establishments that sold liquor. I want to thank the Milicich family for extending its service to this young man, in days of extreme hardship.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000950\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022926caae9b2c44ee8b85b1471c06f13a3\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Who was this bloke?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000951\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ef7c6aa03b741f6a0f26804ff6eed7e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: This guy was a young fellow called Doug Woolerton. The family extended the hand of friendship, as I remember, from out of the back bedroom window of Mrs Milicich\u2019s house. It helped us out of trouble in the middle of summer, when things were very desperate indeed. That family introduced me to wine. I have never been able to drink modern boutique wine, because it is far too sour. The wine I grew up on was 90 percent sugar, 9.5 percent water, and 0.5 percent grapes. I am extremely thankful to the Milicich family for introducing me to that nectar when I was 17 years old. I remember the family with fondness. I want to extend my thanks to Ivan, who is probably flogging his guts out, ample as they are, in his restaurant on the highway between Hamilton and Rukuhia\u2014even though he was the recipient, the same as I was. His parents, when providing their little illegal help, did not know that Ivan was in the car with me. Although they would deny him his share of the grape, they were happy to sell it to me, out of the back bedroom window, and I, being the good-hearted person I am, shared it with him. That was my introduction to the sweet wines of the early days. That family establishment has gone on to be a very, very good operation called Vilagrad Wines, situated just out of Hamilton. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000952\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003ESo the industry worked very, very hard. It did what it had to do, and, in a fairly short time, it has established a remarkable record amongst the sophisticated winegrowers of the world. This industry gives New Zealand agriculture a level of sophistication\u2014not to mention the selling of one heck of a lot of pine trees in the form of tanalised posts; so it does more than the consumers of the grape would realise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000953\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI was somewhat disappointed at the ramblings of the National Party in the debate earlier. I was disappointed, because to me National members took on all the aspects of ill-bred and ill-trained dogs, barking at everything within their purview, including the Government. That was not the right way to carry on, especially when what they were going on about was the sherry tax that was put in place by this Government, wrongly so, in my view, and especially when, at 5 o\u2019clock in the morning, I believe it was\u2014although I was not actually looking at the time\u2014New Zealand First was still voting at full strength, with 13 votes, and the National Party, which I know has reduced numbers these days, was voting 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000954\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db826df715fb4886a7da81215ca851a3\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000955\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a02ea3f6192447f9193ecdef2a78ab0\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Ten. I do not know, and I have no way of knowing, whether its members had gone to bed or had fallen over, but I do know that they were not in the Chamber. It is those who are here to vote who count. The rest do not matter. Although National members make a big fuss about the issue, on that night they were not here, so they do not matter. I am not surprised that they are in a spot of bother at this time with leadership problems, and heaven knows what else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000956\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d042fb41ef2d43a8ae423f32341e5ed8\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: What sort of bother?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000957\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da48b95a79e44b28bbc0d0c313e48b00\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Great bother. They have leadership problems. It does not surprise me, because once they start doing that sort of thing and start taking this House lightly, they will end up in trouble. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000958\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe wine industry is providing for New Zealand something I think we will see much more of in the future. It is a niche industry supplying a niche market in competition with the best in the world. That is why I congratulate the founders of this industry and the present players within it. They have taken on the best in the world and have not been satisfied with what I jokingly called the sweet wines of the past. They started there, but they quickly matured, and they understood one thing that we in this country should all understand and take notice of\u2014we have to aim for the top level. We have to aim for the highest barrier, and we have to compete and win in the toughest markets in the world. It is those markets from whence we will get the highest return. Commodities, even though they play a huge part in the export industries that we are so successful in, are the lowest end of the market, and the wine industry has shown the rest of us that we must aim for the top end. In striving to do that, we will take not only the growers and the industry personnel but also the living standards of this country to a higher point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u002247241c69918e4ee88c41643f6c72d32c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000959\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002247241c69918e4ee88c41643f6c72d32c\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E I have never seen a kiwi at night, not even in captivity, but I will be able to tell my grandchildren that I had pleasure of the rare sight of Doug Woolerton speaking in the House\u2014a rare sighting indeed. I do not think I learnt a lot from it, apart from the fact that in the end New Zealand First will vote for the bill, yet there are significant criticisms. From the National speeches I did not learn much either, but I congratulate Jim Sutton on a bill that is the very model of a modern, major piece of legislation. The Labour-Progressive Government has delivered an industry-specific bill, and that is another promise delivered on. National Party members certainly have problems and I think we heard them tonight, with all the red herrings they were floating about this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EAs to the question of the grandmothers\u2019 tax, they know all about grandmothers because most of them have sold them to get here. That is the only thing I got out of that. The sherry tax, of course, is an anti \u2013 drink binge tax. That is what it is for. [Interruption] If they are interested at all in the health of young people, they might be interested in the statistic that between April 2003 and July 2003 there was a 90 percent decrease in the sale of light spirits. But they are not serious about that. What they are serious about is trying to see who is top dog, and that was the battle between New Zealand First and National tonight, as the great Prebble plan of bringing together National, New Zealand First, and ACT is clearly falling apart. I wish them well. They will all need wine to get over the fight they are having. I congratulate Mr Sutton on a very good bill and the work done on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u00221e868bb56dfd4554bea98e4578dca5af\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000961\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e868bb56dfd4554bea98e4578dca5af\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Tonight we have heard, I think, every party support the wine industry, and I join them. I think the wine industry has shown the way to many of our agricultural industries. The wine industry is innovative, it knows its market, it goes out and sells to the top of the market, and it knows exactly what it wants to do. It is focusing on quality. If there is any suspicion that somebody might be not playing the game, it lands heavily on them. That is what this bill is all about. It is putting in place the structure the industry has been wanting to have in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000962\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThis industry is very important to this country, but it is vulnerable. One need look no further than to what has happened in California and Florida to see that a wine industry can collapse, virtually overnight, though biosecurity problems. In California and in Florida they have the glassy-winged sharpshooter\u2014I had to get that in\u2014which is a vector for Pierce\u2019s disease. If we had that infestation, which is fatal to grapevines, in New Zealand, then the wine industry would go down the gurgler virtually overnight, because it is an incurable disease. The wine industry does have the option of protecting against that sort of thing. In the United States they are looking at genetically engineering their grapevines to prevent any kind of infection like that. But the wine industry in New Zealand has quite specifically and repeatedly said that it will not embrace genetic engineering, for the reason that its markets will not accept genetically modified wine. These people are not rabid \u201Cgreenies\u201D. They are not rabid, longhaired, jandal-wearing, tree-hugging, mung-bean munching \u201Cgreenies\u201D. These people are basing their decision on cold hard economics. They are saying that they do not want to embrace that technology because it is bad for their business. They do not even want genetic engineering for other forms of agriculture in this country, because it will harm their business. That is the reason that this industry is doing well\u2014these people know what its market is. They know that if they go to the top end of the market and provide high quality, they will never regret it. Yet that is what this Government is going to impose on them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000963\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273793fb9db1041bc9763019dfb3b4db4\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000964\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002235f98be26b3941e1824ccbebc243ec12\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: That 4\u00BD-year Government over there. It is going to introduce genetically engineered organisms into our wider environment, and what is going to happen to our market? It is going to go down the gurgler, aided and abetted, I might add, by the National Party, and ACT, and United.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000965\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E It is a shame. Why do we not learn from the people who are playing the game properly\u2014the people who are actually in touch with the realities of economics and of growing things in this country? We are always going to be a minnow in agricultural terms. We can only ever go for the niche market. The niche market that is best suited to this country is the quality end of the market, which is where the wine industry goes and where a lot of our other industries go. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000966\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EZespri is another industry that is right at the top of its game. What does it do? Does it want to embrace GE? Not on your nelly! It does not want it. It knows what its market is. Zespri knows that its consumers in the UK rejected it absolutely, as did consumers of wine in the UK and Europe. Not only will they not buy it; they will go out of their way to avoid buying it. They will pay a large premium to avoid buying it. What on earth are we doing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000967\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b8e1ba3502a4cc5b3b5c21958c65d2c\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: God knows what the Greens are up to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000968\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224faef445ceb44ef5b9c8b8dc26fc348c\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: God knows what the country is up to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000969\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EWe are a market-driven economy. For better or for worse, that is the reality for us. We are a market-driven economy. It is incumbent on us to produce what the market requires. The market has made it very, very clear that it does not want genetically engineered products. The wine industry knows that, the kiwifruit industry knows that, and the meat industry knows that. Most industries know that. When will the Government pick it up? We are not talking rocket science, I say to the Government; we are talking common sense. We are talking economics. We are talking markets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000970\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EAnother aspect of this bill that I find very positive is the aspect of labelling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000971\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224beed5e9153343528fc1800e19795d50\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: This is hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000972\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223131496d7d514ffe8f3661f412480458\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: The labelling is not actually hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000973\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259603389c36c411482f541104bf2f0f2\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: No, this is hopeless.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000974\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ade48d9bf61c4e06aaea900ff5d18d8e\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: Is it? Well, it is better than the National Party with its secret meetings and its desire to collapse the debate at the moment. At least we do not have the internal problems that the National Party has. Perhaps the member\u2019s interjections might be better placed\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOne of the aspects of this bill that the industry wanted was\u2014to pick up an ACT phrase\u2014to have truth in labelling. It wants to have country of origin, the vintage, the variety, and the provenance of the grape on the label. I support that. Why on earth do we not have that with genetically engineered food coming into this country? What is so difficult about putting on a label the words \u201CThis food may, or does, have genetically engineered ingredients\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000976\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227b91aeae5dfd43ae911a6eb33b97fb60\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: They can\u2019t write that small.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000977\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2dcf2d14e374bf794221d288ef59594\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: That is about right, too. There is no reason why that labelling cannot be put on. If labelling on all food said: \u201CThis food may include genetically modified organisms\u201D, then it would immediately lose its impact. The label may as well not exist. The wine industry knows what its market is. It is saying that the consumers and the producers want to know the history, the traceability, the accountability of the production of wine, and that is what the consumer wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eae905fa907b4fcbbb592a69ca510cca\u0022\u003EHon Marian Hobbs\u003C/span\u003E: So why doesn\u2019t the European Union label its wine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000979\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253665c9dba724377af77fb4aeaa16fc3\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister for the Environment is all very keen to interject, but we are talking about reality here. We are talking about markets. I was accosted by that well-known left-wing radical in the street the other day, Doug Kidd\u2014a former National member and Speaker of the House. He accosted me in Lambton Quay, and said: \u201CI\u2019ve just come back from England.\u201D He put his arm around my shoulder, and said: \u201CIan, what you guys need to do is tell the country that all the trucks that are supplying the supermarkets in England\u2014the Sainsburys, the Tescos, the Icelands\u2014have big signs on them, saying: \u2018All our food is GE free\u2019.\u201D I said: \u201CDoug, that is exactly what we\u2019ve been trying to tell the country, the Government, and the National Party for the last 5 years. But will they listen? Will they what!\u201D So I suggested to Doug Kidd that maybe the National Party might like to take up GE free as its policy. I think that is a pretty good idea. We might get the National Party back as a real Opposition if it actually took on a common-sense policy such as that, and said: \u201CWhy don\u2019t we support what 70 percent of the population want?\u201D. People want a GE-free New Zealand. That is a bit like the nuclear ships issue, is it not, I ask Mr Power. New Zealand identifies really, really strongly with being nuclear free, and we identify really, really strongly with being GE free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000980\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a69b6eea90c64ade8a0a00708941e473\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Take a science-based approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000981\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea563b4839ef4b1f8d417eb901fb550d\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: I am a scientist. I do take a science approach. I pride myself on my scientific approach. There is good science and there is bad science. Take nuclear bombs. That is science, but it is bad science, and there is really bad science associated with GE. I do not put aside the possibility that in future it will be good science, but let us keep it in the lab until such a time as it is good science, until it is predictable, and until we know the outcomes and the long-term consequences of introducing alien species into our environment. We do not know those consequences. We cannot know them. The Greens do support this bill, and we look forward with pleasure to its becoming law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022147ae6ed7a054074bced2d54d8cecee2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000982\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022147ae6ed7a054074bced2d54d8cecee2\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Deputy Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to take a brief call in support of my colleague Jim Sutton on this bill. This is a bill that is being considered at a peculiarly appropriate time in the history of the New Zealand Parliament and New Zealand politics, because, at this very time, the National Party is considering what wine it wants to choose to be drinking up to the time of the next election. Does it stick with that little Southland bottle, \u201CThe English\u201D? It was a wine that gave great promise of something when it was young. It seemed to show some promise at that time, perhaps even some complexity. But the truth is that it just has not aged in the bottle, at all. It has now gone extremely flat, and every bottle that is opened turns out to be corked\u2014and so he ought to be by the National Party caucus at the next available opportunity. So what does National have instead? It can go to \u201CThe Brownlee\u201D, a sort of mid-Canterbury wine\u2014a very big, full wine, one could say, but somehow lacking in substance and body, despite the fact that it is a very big, full wine. And there is a bit of a suspicion that although it claims to be a \u201Cwhite\u201D, there is something slightly pink about it from the perspective of the National Party. Finally, of course, there is the alternative, \u201CThe Brash\u201D, an Auckland model now. It has certainly been aged in Reserve Bank oak for a very, very long time. It is the only bottle of wine I know that has on it: \u201CDo not drink more than two glasses, or the price may go up.\u201D That is \u201CThe Brash\u201D. Its problem is that it is a very flinty wine that leaves a kind of sour aftertaste on every possible opportunity. So we will watch to see the wine tasting going on in the National Party in the near future. In the meantime, this bill will pass, and the wine industry will carry on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u0022a2442adca8e04867ad8eb67d6a994bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000983\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a2442adca8e04867ad8eb67d6a994bb9\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to bring the House\u2019s attention back to the Wine Bill. We have heard about genetic engineering, we have heard Michael Cullen show off in front of his Council of Trade Unions mates, and now we are going to get back to the Wine Bill. I want members to know that when we first received this bill from the Government it was twice as thick and twice as long as it is now, and it was full of bureaucracy and compliance costs. The Primary Production Committee, as a responsible select committee, took the knife to it and cut out copious quantities of regulation and legislation\u2014powers that would have come, no doubt, in the future\u2014simply because we do not believe that the wine industry at this time needs to be burdened with more and more compliance costs, which certainly would have happened had the committee not done the work it did on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E I would like to acknowledge the chairman of the committee, David Carter, who worked hard in keeping us focused and keeping Labour Party members focused. I acknowledge Janet Mackey, a responsible deputy chairperson. I acknowledge other members of the committee. The \u201CMP for Helsinki\u201D, Harry Duynhoven, was on the committee. Also there was the member of Parliament who abstains, Ashraf Choudhary, and Ian Ewen-Street, who from time to time is on the committee. He is an occasional member of the Primary Production Committee, and we welcomed him back for that particular part of the bill. There was also Dover Samuels and, of course, Doug Woolerton, and others. I certainly acknowledge all of them and the good work they did in cutting out the bureaucracy and compliance costs that many of the submitters brought to our attention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000985\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe select committee received 115 submissions, and we talked about that earlier but we did not mention that by far the majority of them were concerned primarily about the compliance costs I have mentioned. We heard 26 submissions, and the majority\u2014just over 17, I think\u2014of them were concerned about those compliance costs. Some believed that innovation would be stifled within the industry and development would not happen as quickly as it has in recent years. We heard about the inflexible bureaucracy within the European Union, and about how the Minister Jim Sutton was going to bring that bureaucracy into our industry in New Zealand. Submitters expressed concerns that what happened over there and what has hurt the industry over there was going to hurt the industry here. They understood there had to be a degree of regulation. They appreciated the fact that the wine industry is underpinned by this legislation, but they did not feel that the amount of compliance cost brought about by the original Government bill\u2014Jim Sutton\u2019s bill\u2014was necessary. So the select committee carved out many clauses. They will not be missed. The wine industry, I know, is grateful to the National Party and others on the committee for recognising that and making those changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000986\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EToo many compliance costs have hit this industry in recent years. Members will be aware of rising accident compensation costs, the costs of employing people, and the difficulty of employing people within the industry. Members will be aware of transport costs escalating and all sorts of indirect taxes. Members will also be well aware of the extraordinary urgency that went on several months ago. On 6 May 2003, as I recall, the Customs and Excise Amendment Bill, otherwise known as the sherry tax, was debated until the early hours of the morning, under extraordinary urgency in this Parliament. That bill raised the excise tax on alcoholic beverages, 14 to 23 percent alcohol by volume, I recall, netting the Government 18 million bucks, and we debated that until the early hours of the morning. That affected the industry indirectly, but not as much as it affected all those elderly people in the provinces and the cities who purchase sherry and other products with those alcohol volumes. It did not affect them that much but it certainly affected them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000987\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI was intrigued, I must say, by the Hon Matt Robson\u2019s comments that that legislation, which was rushed through the House, was intended to curb youth drinking. I think most of us see that as ridiculous, a stupid concept; about as stupid as the \u201Cfart tax\u201D, and when his Labour Party colleagues discovered that he and Jim Anderton were actually taxing the elderly of this country with the sherry tax, they were under tremendous pressure. No youth in this country drink sherry. They never did. They are not taxed. This tax has not put them off drinking, but I can tell members that a lot of responsible adult drinkers, who have earned the right to have a sherry after dinner, after work, or after bowls were hurt by that. I still hear about that throughout the country as I visit elderly folk who are concerned about the way this Government is going. The unexpected imposition of that further excise tax on fortified wines, the sherry tax, hurt and disappointed the industry, and we heard a lot about that during the submissions, interestingly enough. The submitters were quite suspicious, when they came to the select committee, about the Government\u2019s agenda over wine excise and where it was heading. They were concerned that 6 May earlier this year was actually a flag for further interference within the industry and further stifling of the industry. We listened to those concerns, and we made a lot of changes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000988\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Wine Bill, as members will be aware, introduced cost recovery for services provided to the industry\u2014that is, by the Government\u2014including activities such as recordkeeping. A number of submissions related to increases in compliance costs. The committee worked quite hard to ensure that there was a minimal impact on the industry in respect of these regulations, and, of course, the levies. Certainly, this industry is levied enough. Certainly, it is taxed enough, both directly and indirectly, and I do not need to go over those issues. Those compliance cost matters were the issues that came up time and time again. I can only say with some pride that I was able to work with David Carter and members such as Janet Mackey, Doug Woolerton and others to see those compliance costs carved out of the bill, or kept to a minimum, so that this industry can continue to do well in the future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000989\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ECertainly, the bill still requires all winemakers to operate under a registered wine standard management plan situation. But that is to enforce food safety and labelling provisions. That is all about market access, which, they recognise, needs to be maintained and, of course, increased. We are happy with those provisions. There is some regulation coming out of this legislation. There will be some compliance costs, but I can assure members that there is not the compliance-costs content in this bill that there originally was when it came to the select committee. So we support this bill. We support the extensive changes that were made to make sure that the industry does not face the bureaucracy it could have faced, and we happily support the passing of this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6f1edc3b4b4d57bc4fef65944f5e67\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000990\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6f1edc3b4b4d57bc4fef65944f5e67\u0022\u003EJANET MACKEY (Labour\u2014East Coast):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I stand in the House to speak to the final reading of this bill. It is a bill that came to the Primary Production Committee at the behest of the industry. The industry wanted access to the European markets, and New Zealand needed to show that it met certain standards, in order to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000991\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EThe select committee worked well. It always surprises me when members say the bill we got was shocking, and the committee had to change it. That is what the select committee process is about. We hear submissions and then we apply that information and input to the bill before us, and then return it to the House in a better shape. I would have thought that every select committee would aspire to work in that way. It sometimes appears that \u201CYou\u2019re damned if you do, and damned if you don\u2019t.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000992\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EI acknowledge the contribution made by Doug Woolerton. He always has a lot to say on bills before the select committee. I was interested in his contribution tonight claiming that when he was 17 he first encountered the Miliciches and wine. I have to say that the East Coast electorate probably has claim to being the home of the grape in New Zealand, given that the botanist on the Endeavour actually sketched the wild grape growing in Poverty Bay. So I think it is appropriate that the East Coast should have an input into this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000993\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EI thank all those people who made excellent submissions. I certainly thank the officials we had. I suspect they are still convinced that some winegrowers will submit their returns on tablets of stone. We have persuaded them that we should leave it up to the various winegrowers to decide how they keep their records, as long as they are readable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000994\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022acb6a053-bcf3-4936-8684-af4d6876983d\u0022\u003EI also thank Philip Gregan from the Wine Institute, who was both a submitter and an adviser to the committee and worked alongside the officials. As a result of that sort of cooperation, and the cooperation of members of the committee, I believe we have produced a bill that meets with the approval of the industry that asked for it. It is a bill that will enhance the industry\u2019s opportunities in the future.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e48eb44e837d4d999c7035c854b370c9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Wine Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 108\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13;Green Party 9; United Future 7; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 5\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 5.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000995\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7ad605131cf4d248ba7b217bf32b953\u0022\u003ECriminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000996\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002276a9bf228b904b42a2017a374c08be6d\u0022\u003EConsideration of Report of Health Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7d500c8bfc34137adb939f31f02a707\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000997\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7d500c8bfc34137adb939f31f02a707\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the report of the Health Committee on the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7). The bill reforms Part 7 of the Criminal Justice Act, which deals with mentally impaired persons who come before the courts charged with criminal offences. The provisions of Part 7 have remained largely unchanged since the 1950s, despite the significant changes that have occurred in the treatment of people with mental illness over that period. Part 7 covers three situations. Firstly, when a trial cannot proceed because the defendant is unfit to stand trial due to his or her mental condition; secondly, when a defendant is acquitted of an offence on the grounds of insanity; and, thirdly, when the court considers that an offender convicted of an imprisonable offence would be better detained in a psychiatric hospital or a care facility than in a prison. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000998\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe most important changes made by the bill relate to those who are intellectually disabled. The Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act generally excludes from its ambit those whose mental impairment is solely due to an intellectual disability. This recognises that the intellectually disabled need different types of care than the mentally disordered. The exclusion of the intellectually disabled from the 1992 Act, however, was not followed with legislation that specifically provided for offenders with intellectual disabilities. Limited options have therefore been available to the courts in dealing with these offenders. As a result, they have often been inappropriately sent to prisons or to psychiatric hospitals. The bill, along with the related provisions in the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, makes specific orders available to the courts for the intellectually disabled who are charged with criminal offences. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11000999\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also contains a significant new safeguard for defendants who are unfit to stand trial. Current legislation allows the detention of people found unfit to stand trial without any inquiry into their actual responsibility for the offence. This creates a risk that people may be detained in circumstances where they did not commit the offence with which they are charged. The bill includes a new provision so that people cannot be detained following a finding of unfitness to stand trial, unless there is sufficient evidence, on the balance of probabilities, that they are responsible for the offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001000\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe new Part 7 also contains a number of other important changes. Firstly, there is a new procedure for entering a verdict of not guilty on the grounds of insanity, where both the prosecution and the defence agree, on the basis of expert evidence, that it is the only reasonable verdict. This removes the need for a jury trial in situations where the defendant\u2019s mental condition at the time of the offence is not in doubt. It will alleviate unnecessary stress and trauma for mentally impaired defendants, as well as victims and witnesses. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESecondly, courts are specifically empowered to hear evidence from a wide range of health professionals in determining the appropriate disposition of a mentally impaired offender. As recommended by the select committee, health professionals preparing assessment reports must also consult, where practicable, with the person\u2019s family or wh\u0101nau, and, as appropriate, with parents, guardians, or caregivers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThirdly, courts will have the ability to order that a convicted offender receive treatment or care in a psychiatric hospital or secure facility while also being subject to a prison sentence. As the select committee pointed out, this will allow the court to ensure the offender does receive treatment or care, rather than joining the backlog of people in penal institutions awaiting transfer for treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI commend the select committee for the detailed attention it has paid to the bill. The committee has recommended amendments that improve the workability of the bill and ensure that the rights of the mentally impaired are protected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESince the committee considered the bill, there have been changes in the criminal justice law, including the passage of the Sentencing Act, the Parole Act, and the Victims\u2019 Rights Act. The passage of these Acts means that some amendments are now required to the bill, which I propose to do by way of a Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFirstly, I propose that an amendment be made to turn the bill into a stand-alone Act, and that the title of this Act be the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Act. Apart from Part 7, most of the provisions of the Criminal Justice Act have either been repealed by the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act, or will be repealed by the Corrections Bill. It is now appropriate to remove Part 7 from an Act with criminal justice in its title to avoid the misleading impression that those whose mental state make them non-culpable are subject to criminal sanctions. Amendments required to take account of the Sentencing Act, the Parole Act, and the Victims\u2019 Rights Act include the removal of amendments that were to be made by the bill, which have since been made or superseded by the Sentencing Act or the Parole Act. Amendments must also be made so that the three Acts apply to the intellectually disabled in the same way that they apply to the mentally disordered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI also intend to propose three other amendments to address issues that have been identified since the bill was reported back. Firstly, an example in clause 4 of the proposed Supplementary Order Paper of when a person will be found unfit to stand trial will be removed, because it does not assist in clarifying what the law sets out. This example relates to a defendant\u2019s ability to make an informed decision about giving evidence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESecondly, an amendment will be made to clause 23 to provide the court with discretion to remand a person who has been found unfit to stand trial, or not guilty by reason of insanity, in a hospital, secure facility, or on bail, while inquiries are made about the most suitable method for dealing with him or her. In deciding whether to grant bail, clause 23 will specify that the need to protect the public is the paramount consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThirdly, an amendment will be made to allow access to assessment reports for providers who have offenders subsequently transferred into their care from the facility to which they were first sent under an order of the court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThis bill, along with the proposed Supplementary Order Paper, updates and modernises the law. It provides a regime to ensure the appropriate care of the mentally impaired, while at the same time providing safeguards for the protection of the public. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022059d9f134fef4aa7b048fddf10295992\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022059d9f134fef4aa7b048fddf10295992\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I am one of the members who was on the Health Committee that originally heard this bill. It was introduced by the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech in response to some serious cases. One was a lad called Stephens whose parents had tried to care and look after him. This young lad grew into a rather large adult who was very difficult to contain. He had an intellectual disability. But, as Mr Goff said, at the time the mental health legislation was changed, intellectual disability was quite correctly removed from the definition of a mental illness. A person with an intellectual disability is quite different from a person with a mental illness. So we saw that there was a gap in the law, and, because of that gap, this legislation has come forward. It provides the ability for a defendant who, on the grounds of either mental illness or intellectual disability, is unfit to plead to be put into different forms of care rather than prison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EFor someone who has an intellectual disability, going to prison is a very serious event. Those people are vulnerable, and are abused in a prison situation. I myself know of cases from when I was a geriatrician. I was seeing an elderly couple who were caring for their son. The mother had a stroke, and the father, who was in his 90s, died suddenly. This man, who was in his 40s, all of a sudden had all his supports removed. His behaviour deteriorated markedly. Once his behaviour had deteriorated he started committing offences, and he ended up in prison. It was a very unacceptable situation for such a vulnerable person. Under this bill, when such a person is found guilty he or she can be cared for in an appropriate facility that cares for people with an intellectual disability and gives 24-hour cover and care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EHowever, I have to say I am staggered that the Hon Phil Goff has tabled a Supplementary Order Paper that is 44 pages long, and has pretty substantial amendments. We have not had time to look at those. There is no select committee process for them. This legislation is a serious issue. It talks about what is happening with people\u2019s lives\u2014the ability to incarcerate them, to take away their rights\u2014about protecting society, and about looking at how the mental health system works. Supplementary Order Paper 161 should not have been dropped on us at this stage. I ask the Minister of Justice how many years he has had to get these amendments before us. He has had 4 years to get these amendments before us so that we could look at them and so that the select committee could process them. But that has not happened. The Minister has just tabled these amendments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EMembers should look at the first amendment. It states: \u201CTo omit from subclause (1) the words \u2018Criminal Justice Amendment Act (No 70 1999\u2019 \u2026 and substitute the words \u2018Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Act 2003\u2019.\u201D What does that mean? Does the Minister actually understand the definitions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf619129b184f71bcb2d79facc8725a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I do understand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fbc6aa219f14680b60a3ff6a0cfecae\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think the Minister does understand them. Does \u201Cmentally impaired persons\u201D mean somebody with an intellectual disability, or does it mean someone who has a psychiatric illness? The whole point of this bill\u2014of everything we did in the select committee\u2014was to ensure that those two definitions were never together, because those who have a mental illness are totally different from those who have a mental disability. The Minister lumps them back together because he does not understand the issues. That is just an example of what happens when one tables a Supplementary Order Paper like this. I think it is absolutely unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe are talking about mental illness and people going into forensic care\u2014not going to prison, but going into forensic care because they have been found not guilty on the grounds of insanity. Let us look at the Paul Ellis case, which was reported back today. This Government is totally failing New Zealanders in mental health\u2014absolutely totally failing New Zealanders and their families. There were massive problems with the care of Paul Ellis, whose family suffered the price. His father died because he was not listened to. Paul Ellis was released within 72 hours of his having been put under a compulsory assessment and treatment order. That should not have happened. I have a member\u2019s bill that would have stopped that. It provides that people will be detained for 72 hours for assessment, which allows time for the families to be involved in their care. Families know a great deal about people with mental illness. If they were listened to, we would not have tragedies such as Mark Burton killing his mother, Paddy. If Trevor Burton, his father, had been listened to, that would not have happened.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIn 1997 National moved an amendment to require that families be consulted, but that is not happening. It did not happen in the Burton case. It did not happen in the Ellis case. It is time that this Government took mental illness and mental health seriously. The fact that a Supplementary Order Paper is tabled just before an urgency motion, just before we are about to debate the bill, and after the Government has had 4 years to introduce those amendments, shows what little respect the Government has for the needs of those with a mental illness and their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen Paul Ellis was admitted to hospital the psychiatrist did not have time to assess him. He sought judicial review, and the case came before a judge. The facts about his mental illness were not available to be placed before the judge. He was released and his father suffered the price. I think every New Zealander has huge sympathy for that case. These families are suffering. There have been nine cases like this in the last few years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe know that people with a mental illness generally are no more dangerous than anybody else. They have an illness. But there is a group of young men, generally under 30 and often with drug and alcohol problems, who do pose more of a risk. They must be identified, and they must be able to be held by forensic services. It is no good our waiting, when this bill becomes an Act of Parliament, till they come before the justice system, because by that time the public\u2014generally, it is the families\u2014will have paid the price through murder and attack. That is why we must see some changes to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) that we have before us was differentiated from the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill. At the select committee\u2014and I do not know whether my colleague Paul Hutchison, who was on the committee with me, remembers this\u2014the Government tried to do something very sneaky. The Government tried to have suspended sentences of imprisonment abolished altogether from the bill. It tried to sneak that in. Does the member remember that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270c98bf36dda486fb07bcc4f1b26b36a\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: I do, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f066417b6b72428a957a734f6169e6d4\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: We talked about Carla Cardno and her stepfather, who had threatened to attack the killer of Carla Cardno if he was released. The stepfather was given a suspended sentence. This Government tried to abolish that form of sentence, without putting that amendment through due process. Once again, it tried to sneak something through without due process\u2014without those who are involved, those who understand, being able to look at and scrutinise the legislation and have their say through the select committee process. It was a very poor way to treat the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe will be supporting the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) because it was part of a National Government bill that looked at correcting many of the problems that occurred due to the fact that, when intellectual disability was taken out of the jurisdiction of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act, there was no further legislation to enable somebody with an intellectual disability to be put into a secure facility that was not a prison but provided care and rehabilitation for that person. Because of that, we will support this bill. But this whole procedure of changing this bill with a huge Supplementary Order Paper is not acceptable. I would like the Minister to take a call, and tell us why he did that and why he did not consult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002295a2682680ca485b80bbc5b9a78f0b33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295a2682680ca485b80bbc5b9a78f0b33\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is a bittersweet pill seeing the bill on the floor today. I guess it is sweet because finally the House can say that something is being done to address the anomalies in the way in which mentally ill people and people with intellectual disabilities are handled once they become criminals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe have to rewind the clock, go right back, and answer a couple of simple questions. Why are we passing legislation such as this? The answer is that we have created a situation where mentally unwell people are put in situations where they cannot help but become criminals. In Parliament, Labour started the nonsense. It would not listen to people in the industry who had been caring for mentally unwell people for generations. No, in the years of cost cutting and finding a corporate manner in which to deal with health services, Labour amended the mental health and disability legislation, led by that astounding Minister of Health whose greatest claim to fame is closing 29 hospitals. She has now been surpassed; her Minister of Education is about to close 200 or so schools. Those guys will have their names chiselled on a granite headstone, because that is where they deserve to be for the pain they have inflicted upon the New Zealand public.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EMembers should cast their minds back to Sunday night and the three families shown on the television programme Sunday. [Interruption] Now it is hurting; up come the chickens squawking. That party is responsible for much of the pain in our communities that has resulted from the changes brought about by the deinstitutionalisation led by Helen Clark and supported by her entire Cabinet, then picked up by Jenny Shipley and supported by people like Ruth Richardson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI remember when I was a new, fledgling member of the Labour Party, trying to talk to our Minister of Health about reviewing her commitment to deinstitutionalisation. I had spent days and months listening to the Templeton parents association, which predicted that those changes would end up criminalising their children and family members who had intellectual disabilities, because they knew no better; by being put into the community, that is the very sort of thing they would be exposed to. The parents\u2019 big concern was the lack of support for their children once they were in the community, because we know how that works. The association predicted those things. I came back from the Middle East and it was telling us that, in 1990.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI fronted up to Helen Clark at a meeting in Shirley, at a community hall, where she was supporting David Caygill in an election campaign. I had had a chat with Mike Moore, who was the leader at the time. He had told me to talk to Helen Clark, and had said that if she changed her mind, then Labour would change the policy and go with her. I had told him that as Labour\u2019s candidate I would not advocate Labour\u2019s policy on deinstitutionalisation. I spoke to that woman and her answer was absolutely dismissive. Her answers to staff and nurses who stood up at that same meeting and asked her whether she would keep the Templeton Centre open were an absolute dismissal of their professional concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhere are we today? When people like Marc Alexander and the Law and Order Committee go to Auckland to visit the remand prison and talk about inmates there who have disabilities and mental problems, the prison tells them that anything between 12 and 23 percent of its inmates have mental disabilities. The staff members tell us those people should not even be in our prisons. Where are we today? When we visit police stations and talk to bobbies who patrol our streets, they tell us they are sick and tired of picking up the pieces of a failed deinstitutionalisation policy led by politicians who have no care, concern, or heart for the victims of those horrendous crimes, or their families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat do we read today in the paper? I will take a simple press release. The Ministry of Health says it accepts an inquiry\u2019s findings that no one is to blame for serious failings in the south Auckland mental health service 2 years ago. That is becoming a hallmark of the Labour Government. Nobody is to blame for anything, unless National is in Government and Christine Rankin is involved. With finding after finding and inquiry after inquiry, we can talk about the \u201Cgoon squad\u201D and about mental health failings till the cows come home, but nobody is to blame. I will tell members who is to blame. Helen Clark is to blame for a myopic, idealistic focus on deinstitutionalisation that has resulted in murder and homicide victims from one end of this country to the other. The Government accepts no blame. Well, the public does not think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe only thing I can say about this debate we are having now is that it is good we finally have this bill after 4 years of the Government sitting on its backside and doing nothing. We rammed through a sherry tax in the dead of night, in a 24-hour session to get it through, but when it comes to an issue such as this where families have had members murdered, where a woman was stabbed through the chest with a chisel and had her head cut off, and her daughters found her in the bath, it can wait for a jolly sherry tax. Well, hip, hip, hooray; the Government certainly has its priorities totally stuffed up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EOne thing I will not let that party get away with is that it totally rejected every concern raised by nurses, clinical professionals, and people who had worked in the mental health services for years, in pursuit of its ideology. Today we are picking up the pieces and the tragedy is they are human pieces. They are pieces of someone\u2019s family. If Government members think this is the end of it, I am sorry to say to them that it is not, because the fundamental problem has not been resolved. The Government will close Kimberley and it will not listen to anybody. It has this view of institutions. It opposed the construction of Brackenridge Estate, which New Zealand First got as a concession from the National \u2013 New Zealand First coalition Government. It works well. The parents are happy and the families are happy. The question we have for that lot over there is why could the same facility not be built up north in Auckland, Palmerston North, and other places where families do not want\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c82e8ea7b985464b9c1d86cfbfa24490\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: In Levin.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022720f0d236f3b4dacaec266fedeea7365\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: And Levin. Families do not want their children or their loved ones who have mental disabilities and intellectual disabilities criminalised because they are let out into a \u201Ccare less in the community\u201D programme where, time after time, they are failed. It is so ironic that the Labour Party, which champions itself as the heart, conscience, and mind of New Zealand, cares so little about the victims of the crimes committed by those people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe nonsense is that the patient is a victim as well. We should talk to the families who have suffered the heartache of seeing their loved one dragged before a court to face charges for something that would never have happened had he or she been held in care in an institution. But we must not use that word; it is a dirty word. We will call it an asylum, a sanctuary, or what one will. If that party thinks that care in the community, in a community house with one-eighth of an acre of land around it, is better than the facilities that there used to be at Kimberley and Templeton, it is absolutely nuts. At least those people could roam over grass expanses. At least they had the swimming pool, the church, and other facilities. All that we had to do was to bulldoze the old facilities and replace them with something modern and efficient, but, oh no, the Labour Party will adhere to its blind ideology, despite the fact that the British Labour Party has since recognised the error of its ways and has reversed its policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EDeinstitutionalisation is not a bad policy. What is bad is the blind, myopic view of total deinstitutionalisation, the belief that there is not room for a place for people who need constant, 24/7 care because they are fragile. Those people are not able to operate in the community because they will be victimised by normal people who take advantage of them. I have only to mention Mr Truscott to make my point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002283c5b478f26840f4b6fca43dc924e6d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283c5b478f26840f4b6fca43dc924e6d9\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise briefly to indicate that the Green Party will be supporting the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), which saw its genesis long ago, under National in 1999. It is astonishing that we are now dealing with it under urgency in October 2003. Nevertheless, it is high time we plugged the gap in legislation in terms of dealing with major criminal offenders who are also intellectually impaired. As others have pointed out, there has been a real problem in that, since 1992, there has not been a legal means by which judges and courts can deal properly with intellectually disabled offenders. Because such people were removed from coverage by the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act, they were also excluded from section 7 of the Criminal Justice Act, leaving a gaping hole in terms of procedures for dealing with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAlthough, of course, the Green Party has no problem at all with the fact that this group was left out of the mental health legislation for the very good reason that intellectual disability is not a mental illness\u2014a fact apparently not realised by the previous speaker\u2014it has been most unfortunate that a small number of people have ended up being inappropriately placed in mainstream prisons or detained as special patients in mental health units. Even now we continue to hear all too often of prison cells becoming a dumping-ground for people for whom there is simply no other place to go, and it is an indictment on our society that we have allowed that to continue into the 21st century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOur one main concern about this bill and the accompanying bill, which we are about to deal with, is the level of resourcing and the preparedness of the infrastructure to support adequately the accommodation needs of intellectually impaired offenders once these bills become law. The Government tells us that a regional intellectual disability care agency has been established in four health regions, and that a number of new services have been set up, including so-called community secure accommodation, independent supported living services, and respite care services. However, word is that hospital-level secure services, which, in many of these cases, are what is needed, are still at an early stage of development. The Green Party certainly encourages the Government to do everything it can to resource the provision of those services at a fully adequate and appropriate level with as much haste as is practical.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe welcome the changes that have been made to this bill and to its accompanying legislation, the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, that mean that the bills will no longer include compulsory care for adult non-offenders or under-17-year-olds who have not committed serious offences. It is good that the Government listened to submissions from the Council for Civil Liberties, the Human Rights Commission, and others that raised undeniable arguments as to the ethics and legality of placing people who have not carried out major criminal acts into what is, in effect, a term of imprisonment. The Green Party also supports Supplementary Order Paper 161, which, among other things, allows the courts more discretion about where they remand people who are found unfit to stand trial or not guilty on the grounds of insanity, and also allows service providers to have access to assessment reports provided by previous facilities. Those are simply common-sense amendments, and I commend them and the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00223418734448a44b62927f535970f6b8ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223418734448a44b62927f535970f6b8ee\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to support the consideration of the report on the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7). I would like to confine my comments during this debate to some of the main points in the bill and some of the changes recommended by the Health Committee, before taking a call in the debate on the third reading to talk about the general issues that the bill raises in relation to the criminal justice and health systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EAs noted by previous speakers, the legislation augments the procedural safeguards for the treatment of intellectually disabled persons who appear before the court charged with an offence. Perhaps the most important thing to bear in mind when considering this bill is the requirement to find a balance between the need to detain offenders for the sake of public safety, and the need to ensure that mentally impaired offenders are treated appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EUnder the Criminal Justice Act, if a court is satisfied that a defendant is mentally disordered it may determine that that person is unfit to stand trial, or acquit him or her on the grounds of insanity. The difficulty arises in the definition of \u201Cmentally disordered\u201D, in that it does not include those whose impairment is solely caused by an intellectual disability. The distinction is an important one, as those who have an intellectual disability are not considered to be treatable, which has some fairly obvious consequences for the way in which those offenders are dealt with. It also means that intellectually disabled offenders could be made to stand trial even when, because they cannot construct a defence or instruct counsel to do it for them, they are not fit to do so. The bill gets round this by changing the term \u201Cmentally disordered\u201D to \u201Cmentally impaired\u201D, as recommended by the Law Commission in its 1994 report on mental health and criminal justice issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EAn important change made by the committee was to ensure that those who know the defendant\u2019s personal history and condition the best, such as caregivers and family, are consulted when a health assessment is being made for the court. If a defendant is found to be unfit to stand trial, he or she will be made subject to either an order for compulsory care if intellectually disabled, as provided for in the accompanying Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, or compulsory treatment in the case of those with mental illnesses, as provided for under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act. But in order to balance that desire to ensure appropriateness of care and attention, the threshold for determining whether the accused is physically guilty of the crime is somewhat lower than normal. It is based on the balance of probabilities rather than on the absence of reasonable doubt. In light of the incapacity of the defendant to undergo trial, this is a practical change that keeps the need for community safety uppermost. There is an appeal process available to defendants, on the basis that there may be insufficient evidence to convict or that the defendant is unfit to stand trial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EOn the other hand, to ensure that being found to be unfit to stand trial is not a softer option, the maximum period of imprisonment is being increased from 7 to 10 years. Once again, to balance out the need for public safety, the bill extends the period in which a person may be remanded to a hospital or secure facility from 7 days to 30 days, which allows the court sufficient time to assess the most appropriate method of dealing with a defendant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EUnder the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, the court will have an extended range of options made available to it. The bill also allows offenders to receive treatment at the same time as being subject to a prison sentence. One of the difficulties with the current system is that the courts cannot ensure that the offender is both punished and treated, leading to a backlog of people in prisons awaiting transferral to a hospital.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIt is important to acknowledge that when we talk about offences committed by the genuinely intellectually impaired we are actually talking about a small number of cases. At times such as this, the tragedy is not limited to the victims\u2014although I firmly believe that their needs should be paramount\u2014but also extends to the fact that those crimes would not have occurred if the offenders had been receiving appropriate care. Ron Mark raised a few points and\u2014although without quite so much exuberance as he exhibited\u2014I have to say that there are some people for whom community care is simply not feasible. It is inefficient. It may be that institutional care is the only appropriate means by which to keep them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EWe commend this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00224093311df36840069cd17174512066a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224093311df36840069cd17174512066a9\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) on behalf of the ACT party. The ACT party will be supporting this bill, as will all the other members in the House. I congratulate the National Party, and especially Wyatt Creech, who is no longer with us, on bringing this bill before the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f63000d749c42aa9e7367dc04b4e33a\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s still alive, though.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91e7a7dff0643319e174a252eac9f04\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: He is still alive, and I am pleased to say that. I commend him for bringing this bill to the House. It makes a good deal of sense. I will not go over the points that the other members have made but, in particular, I am very pleased with the provision for compulsory treatment to run concurrently with the prison sentence. As Marc Alexander has just said, people can be both treated and punished now, whereas previously that was sometimes not the case. The prison sentence will now run while the person is in hospital or in secure care. If the need for treatment or care ceases, the person will be transferred to a prison to complete any remaining period of the prison sentence, and that is as things should be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EHowever, while supporting the bill, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice, as others have, why it has taken this Government so long to get to this point, and why we are sitting here at 10 minutes to 11 at night\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225391e72a078e48c1a59d017cf051dba0\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: You guys never vote for overtime. You vote against every motion ever passed to take urgency, then you wonder why you don\u2019t get progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0413605038941bab576dcee08343404\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: It would be good if the Minister would stand and take a call when it is his turn. In fact, I would like to say it has taken\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I must say that while we are having running commentaries from both sides of the House I am finding it very difficult to speak myself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00221c2789d0d39c41569075bd6d53245e04\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c2789d0d39c41569075bd6d53245e04\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Members will allow you, and so will I, to continue in relative silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224cf9d12cbca048998ce59e1e518e4c57\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: It is good to be able to be heard again. This Government has taken 4 years to get to this point. It is becoming something of a trend for this Government to drop long Supplementary Order Papers on the Table the day before a bill is to be heard. The one quite recently, just a couple of weeks ago, that I recall was the Gambling Bill. There were not 44 pages but 65 pages of Supplementary Order Paper that made significant changes to the bill. Fortunately, the changes to this bill are not quite as significant as that, but in a democracy this is not acceptable. Mr Goff stood up and commended the select committee for its hard work. I am not sure why he bothered commending anybody for hard work, when he has introduced a new Supplementary Order Paper to replace the bill. Why did\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022034c032c062543e184538bbb485c7726\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Goff, speakers are clearly not heeding your advice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aec2ba3245874e53a5c69e1075fb962d\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Quite right. Anyway, it is very good that, even after 4 years, this Government has managed to bring this bill finally before the House, although changes do need to be made. People with intellectual disabilities should be separated from those with mental illnesses, although this Government does not have a good record in dealing with matters of mental illness. As Dr Lynda Scott said previously, the Paul Ellis inquiry, the report on which was released today, is a good indication of this. There are serious problems with the mental health system, and it is important that we should note these when we debate matters of mental illness. What we have at the moment is a fragmented system that is failing the truly vulnerable in our society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis stems from two main causes, but there are others that are relevant. The first is that we have a chronic shortage of staff in this country. It is quite right that those with intellectual disabilities should be housed in separate units, but the difficulty is there are not enough mental health staff at the moment to staff the facilities that do exist, so quite where those staff will materialise from is anybody\u2019s guess. We train our health professionals for export at the moment. We train them, and give them very good training, they immediately see that their opportunities, in terms of both working conditions and pay, are much better overseas, and off they go. The second thing is that there are not enough beds as it is, and that is part of the reason that ACT welcomes this bill. There will be more beds, despite the staffing difficulties, but at the moment what is clogging up the system is long-term patients in acute beds. When psychiatrists in particular are faced with a patient who needs inpatient care, there is nowhere to place that patient. We have a fragmented system, not one that patients can enter and flow through as they should be able to. That is a serious failing and is part of the reason that there is a cycle of tragedy in this country when it comes to mental illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe cycle of tragedy was pointed out to New Zealand in December 1998 by the then Opposition health spokesperson, Annette King. She criticised the then National Minister of Health for what he had described as the cycle of tragedy. A tragedy happened, blame was apportioned, there were inquiries, and reports were written that went nowhere and addressed very little. When another tragedy happened the whole cycle started again. That was a fairly accurate description of what was happening at the time. But what is happening now? There is exactly the same cycle of tragedy. The Opposition health spokesperson at the time, Annette King, said that this is no way to run a health system. What do we have now? There is no change\u2014absolutely nothing is different. There is a cycle of tragedy and, if anything, the cycle of tragedy is worse now than it was then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIf we move on to intellectual disability, which is what this bill is mainly about\u2014the proper and humane treatment of those with intellectual disabilities\u2014we can talk too about community care and deinstitutionalisation. I would not go quite as far as my colleague Ron Mark from New Zealand First did. He indicated that the whole thrust of deinstitutionalisation had been a mistake. I think of it more as a pendulum. Previously, there were too many people living in institutions who could have been incorporated into the community. But the problem is that deinstitutionalisation was the politically correct thing to do, so the pendulum swung the other way completely. We are now at the point where there are not enough beds, as I said before. There are not enough beds for the acute patients or the medium-term patients, or indeed the long-term patients\u2014the people who will be very difficult to incorporate into society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIf we look not far up the road, at the Kimberley Centre, we can see that it illustrates this point beautifully. Those who have been easy to re-establish into the community have now moved into the community, and are being very well catered for. By and large they get the support they need. But there is a group of people now left in that institution who are very difficult to place. The local community is in uproar, of course, because those patients need a great deal of care. They will be housed out of the Kimberley Centre so that it can be disestablished, and they will find it extremely difficult to integrate into the community. In fact, we might find that they are the very people whom this bill has been written for; people who, without the adequate support that they need, which in many cases is institutional care, find themselves in positions where they become criminals and are in need of the very facilities that the Minister is advocating now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ERon Mark also pointed out that the Ministry of Health accepts no blame for anything, and that nobody is to blame for anything. That is a very convenient situation for the Government, is it not? Nobody is to blame for anything. I welcome some of the report\u2019s recommendations. I was pleased to see that at least it had not blamed the mental health workers who are holding this system together\u2014those at the coalface who are the last to see the patient. At least, the report did not blame them. What it should have done is blame the system that those people have to work in; the system that is failing the patients, the families of those patients, and also the staff who are expected to work within that system. The cycle of tragedy will continue until the Government addresses the real problems of mental illness.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI would like to finish by saying that we do in fact support the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7). It will bring forward some very sensible changes that should have been made long ago, and my criticism is that it has taken the Minister of Justice 4 years to get to this point, which is shameful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00220f5774f2cda446f5bfdd7c4b1946a2b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220f5774f2cda446f5bfdd7c4b1946a2b3\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to take a quick call on this bill, because I am one of three current parliamentary members who were on the original select committee. I would like to clarify a couple of points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge Wyatt Creech, who worked very constructively with Annette King when we come into Government. This was a top-priority bill, and we decided to send it to the committee, where it had full support, I must say. The committee worked in great accord on the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThe bill fits a small niche of people with intellectual disability\u2014it has nothing to do with deinstitutionalisation, which Mr Mark seemed to confuse it with. A small group of up to a hundred people with an intellectual disability have been quite incorrectly housed when they get into difficulties with the law. Provision for housing has been carried over in the Budget, to build appropriate supported residential care for this very small group of people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EIt is a great bill. It is a bill on which we should not be bitterly divided. The committee worked in accord on the bill and saw it as a very high priority. The gap concerned Wyatt Creech; it took 7 years to work up the bill so it could go to the select committee. Three years later we are now debating it in the House. I am delighted to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EMembers of the community with intellectual disabilities will be thrilled about this bill, because they have always felt they are muddled up with people with mental ill-health. They do not fit that community of interest as a client group. They came before us and urged the passage of this bill, and will be very delighted with its outcome when it is passed into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00229ba870cb4ec743ee995ad496849ed3a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229ba870cb4ec743ee995ad496849ed3a9\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Under urgency at 11 p.m. we are debating the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7). Laughter is coming from the Labour front bench, but I do not see anything funny. I do not think that the name of this legislation does justice to the human tragedy we are talking about in the bill. I hope that Labour Party members will have a change of heart and listen carefully. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to use my 10 minutes to tackle two issues. The No. 1 issue is the process of this bill, and the No. 2 issue is its substance. The Hon Phil Goff in Opposition would have shown passion and outrage if any other party had dared to let this important human tragedy bill languish in Parliament for 2\u00BD years. When National was in Government in 1999 we brought in this bill because we knew there was a situation out there in which mentally impaired individuals who should not have to stand trial, had had to. The Rt Hon Wyatt Creech introduced the bill in 1999. I looked through the bill\u2019s report-back from the Health Committee. It did a good job. It put forward amendments to make the bill more workable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe bill was reported back to Parliament on 30 April 2001. The Hon Phil Goff has blamed National and Opposition parties for not agreeing to an urgency motion to debate this bill earlier. How many sittings under urgency did Labour have to wait through before it brought this bill back? It has waited for 2\u00BD years, and now has come to Parliament to say that it has to bring in a Supplementary Order Paper of 44 pages\u2014the same number as the original bill\u2014without it being subject to the scrutiny of the select committee. Labour can blame the process and say that changes have happened in the world. Of course changes will have happened after 2\u00BD years! Of course the world will have moved on\u2014apart from the Labour Party! The Hon Phil Goff was outraged and asked why we could not just trust Labour to introduce 44 pages of Supplementary Order Paper. It is nothing new, so why can we not trust Labour? It is obvious why a person like me is full of scepticism. We heard the Hon Pete Hodgson bring in a \u201Cfart tax\u201D of $8 million, because he said that the farming community contributed to research funding to the tune of only $800,000. Now the Government is saying that it looks as though farmers have contributed about $5.4 million. The Rt Hon Helen Clark has said that in terms of free-trade agreements Labour was not doing too badly, alongside Australia. We notice that the single example she was using was the Singapore free-trade agreement. Negotiations for that were started under National, when we were in Government. So with those types of outrageous claims, why should we trust the word of the Labour Government that this Supplementary Order Paper will not contain any surprises? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe abuse of the process is starting to get to a point where the public has simply had enough. We had the question of the Supreme Court, about which 80 percent of people said that the whole matter should have been subject to a referendum and that people should have had a say, but the Labour Government would not heed a word of it. This bill is a continuation of abuse of the process in which the Health Committee had done its job, amended the original bill, then reported back to Parliament on 30 April 2001\u20142 years ago. Now this Minister says that because it is 2 years since that process, an amendment is necessary, and he has not referred the bill back to the Health Committee for a proper process to be carried out. But I support quite a lot of what was said. I think it was said with sincerity, and with a lot of passion, by my colleague from New Zealand First Ron Mark. In fact, we are looking at \u201Cthe fence at the bottom of the cliff\u201D. Why do some of these individuals have to come before the court? I share Heather Roy\u2019s view that we cannot say the whole deinstitutionalisation process was wrong, but certainly the pendulum has gone too far, and Labour\u2014despite whatever claims it made when it was in Opposition\u2014after 4 years has done nothing to address the human tragedy that continues to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EToday we have heard the inquiry results of Paul Ellis, a psychiatric patient who suffers from mental illness and who killed a family member. I agree that it is totally unsatisfactory once again to say that the system failed the individual. Accountability seems to be something that is now totally missing from this Labour minority Government. The report findings of this sad case say that it was due to the acute shortage of resourcing of mental health services. How many times did we hear outrage from the Hon Annette King when she was in Opposition? How many times did we hear promises that she would fix the mental health services? But after 4 years, we have not seen an improvement, and we continue to see individuals falling through the cracks. We continue to note the Labour minority Government announcing one inquiry after another. It is washing its hands by spending more and more money on inquiries, but it is not addressing recommendations and solutions to the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI hope that the Minister, when we commence the Committee stage, will take this Parliament seriously and explain in detail what is in the 44 pages of Supplementary Order Paper. But, more than that, I think the Minister owes the public an explanation about why this bill\u2014which is dealing with some of the saddest human tragedy in New Zealand\u2014was sitting on the parliamentary Order Paper for 2\u00BD years. Does Labour not find our mentally impaired individuals important enough human beings for that bill to have been passed a lot earlier? I hope that United Future stops complimenting the Labour minority Government on this bill, because it was totally outraged tonight that Labour was trying to rush through a 44-page Supplementary Order Paper on a very good bill that was introduced by the National Government in 1999, examined by the Health Committee, and reported back to this House in 2001. Although we will support the bill, we think the Minister owes the House the duty to take it fully through the Supplementary Order Paper. The Labour minority Government should at least pretend that it respects the process of the Committee stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022224a6e66e30d4e32992a140633c318ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022224a6e66e30d4e32992a140633c318ec\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to stand in support of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022cde42b0354334f57a84c4ebee6abcb5c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cde42b0354334f57a84c4ebee6abcb5c\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E National and New Zealand First wish to split the next call to have a 5-minute speech each; the first by Mr Dail Jones and the second by Dr Paul Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022245bb0f8bb2d4719b6df6ea0164560f3\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The next call will be split; 5 minutes each, and the bell at 5 minutes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002212b89f001ca64a88b07c2454331cc8ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002212b89f001ca64a88b07c2454331cc8ee\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Thanks to members of the House, Mr Tisch, and Dr Hutchison for coming to this arrangement. This bill is new to me, so I have obviously been spending a little time going over it. I have been trying to come to grips with it and with the 44 pages of Supplementary Order Paper. I asked myself what the process was when the previous bill, the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), was considered by the Health Committee. What happened in that select committee, and why could this amendment to create a new Act not be sent to the Health Committee? Was it such a long process on the previous occasion? Did the committee spend hours and hours on it? Did it get 360 submissions, as we sometimes get in the Justice and Electoral Committee? Will it take weeks for this to be resolved? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI looked at page 15 of the commentary on the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), and what did I find? The commentary states that the Health Committee received and considered eight submissions from interested groups and individuals. It states: \u201CWe heard five submissions orally. Hearing evidence took one hour and five minutes and consideration took eight hours and forty minutes.\u201D There is absolutely no reason why this bill, with a Supplementary Order Paper, cannot be returned to the Health Committee so that for 1 day interested parties can make a quick comment on this legislation before it is returned to the House. Yet 2\u00BD years or so after it came back to the House, we are given a Supplementary Order Paper, on the same day as today, 21 October, and we are told that it must be rushed through the House. What is wrong with the bill going back to the committee so that Associate Professor Warren Brookbanks, the National Network of Stopping Violence Services, the Auckland City Council, the Human Rights Commission, the New Zealand Law Society, Mrs L D Orr, the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, New Zealand Branch, and the Mental Health Commission can have a look at? It will not take long. It is a simple matter, and there will be proper consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe make a mockery of Parliament, and we all make fools of ourselves with this type of legislation. It is no wonder parliamentarians have a bad name. It is due to the actions of the minority Labour Government failing to consult the community and being very reticent in consulting the community. Mrs Chadwick can turn up her nose at submissions\u2014she does not want it to go back to the Health Committee. She is not interested. She knows it all. She knows absolutely everything there is to know about this matter. She does not want the advice of people like Associate Professor Warren Brookbanks, or the Mental Health Commission. It would take one quick meeting of the Health Committee, and the matter would be back in the House within no time at all. Parliament would have done its job and we would have had consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI seem to recall that once upon a time a Supplementary Order Paper like this would have been out of order. We would never have dreamt of putting a Supplementary Order Paper of 44 pages before the House. It just would not have happened. But, today, this minority Labour Government has no regard for Parliament or the people of New Zealand. This type of legislation is rammed through, under urgency, at this hour of the night, in the hope that no one notices what is happening. Tomorrow morning, or on the following day, the people involved in this area will suddenly discover that a bill has been passed\u2014at last, for we have heard that this bill seems to have taken about 10 years to get to this stage. If it has taken 10 years altogether, then why can it not have 1 day in front of the Health Committee so that people can make submissions on it? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat does the Supplementary Order Paper actually do? As its explanatory note comments\u2014and the explanatory note takes up barely half a page of its 44 pages\u2014we will now have a new Act called the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Act. I am not sure that the term \u201Cmentally impaired\u201D was the intention of the select committee. I ask Mrs Chadwick, who claims some knowledge of the bill, whether she agrees with the comment on page 3 of the commentary on the bill that: \u201CThe term \u2018mental impairment\u2019 should be left undefined to avoid the possibility of leaving an unintended gap in the legislation\u201D. This legislation seems to be a contradiction of the work she allegedly did in the select committee\u2014that is, if she can remember ever doing anything in the select committee, other than going along with the Labour Party viewpoint. Why can this bill not go back to the select committee so it can be reminded of what has been involved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002248df8b8dbe31469bae89283d7d000bdd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002248df8b8dbe31469bae89283d7d000bdd\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E This is a very important bill. I well remember that in 1999 the Health Committee worked very well together, and Steve Chadwick pointed that out. However, it is a huge anomaly that finally, 4 long years later, here we are, under urgency, addressing this very important matter, but with no consultation on a Supplementary Order Paper of 44 pages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at the commentary, in which Mrs Judy Keall had quite a lot to say. She said: \u201COccasionally Government departments\u201D\u2014and I will add Governments as well\u2014\u201Cwill propose substantive and significant changes to bills after select committees have finished hearing submissions.\u201D She went on to say: \u201CWe disapprove of that practice. Committees are not simply vehicles for Government amendments to legislation: they are committees of Parliament with a duty to scrutinise legislation and provide for public input so that New Zealand is provided with the best legislation possible, reflecting a wide range of interests. Our process of select committee scrutiny and consultation is widely recognised as one of the most important aspects of our constitutional framework.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWell, here is a clear abuse of that process by the Labour Government. No matter what Government members might say about their Supplementary Order Paper, it is very unfortunate that it is on a matter as important as this. It relates to distinguishing between those with intellectual impairment and those with mental illness, or even distinguishing between those who have a combination of the two. It requires huge skill and a great deal of thought to be able to transfer that into sensible legislation. There was good cooperation 4 years ago, and that was great, but to suddenly have this Supplementary Order Paper imposed on Parliament, under urgency, is inappropriate and an example of how this tawdry Labour Government, which is becoming more and more arrogant by the day, treats such a serious matter. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELet us look at the Supplementary Order Paper. Apparently the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) is now to be called the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill. But if we go down to the fourth part of the explanatory note, I see that one of the reasons for the Supplementary Order Paper is to remove the current requirement that persons found unfit to stand trail, or who are acquitted on a count of insanity, must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with. Instead of the mandatory remand provisions, the Supplementary Order Paper gives the courts the option of remanding such persons on bail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E However, in deciding whether to grant bail, the need to protect the public is \u201Cthe paramount consideration\u201D. Here we have the Minister of Justice saying, quite rightly, that the need to protect the public is important, but he is also saying that it is \u201Cthe paramount consideration\u201D. In this circumstance, it is not just the need to protect the public; it is the need to ensure that those individuals who might be incarcerated or put into a treatment facility under this bill are, indeed, appropriately and fairly treated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ETo say that this is \u201Cthe paramount consideration\u201D, where there are clearly balancing and conflicting considerations, is quite inappropriate. This is the quality of the Supplementary Order Paper that the Labour Minister of Justice, under urgency, has put on the Parliament, and that is quite wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBill to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002214789a51fca9402b8ada3db1812b39dd\u0022\u003EProcedure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022 data-id=\u0022600d98aba6d54864ae140f956c6eaeb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022600d98aba6d54864ae140f956c6eaeb3\u0022\u003ELINDSAY TISCH (Junior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave that the bill be taken as one question in the Committee stage, and that there be one wide-ranging debate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248161313a3114c36999488e0f944a155\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought by Mr Tisch. Is there any objection? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002297518ddbf8ff4bc9ba3b2889912d9d9f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b9a943f8fa844ce97625b86eac2a029\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 20 and schedule\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00223399613ea0dc4c4cbc2df555c4abe901\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223399613ea0dc4c4cbc2df555c4abe901\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I begin the debate on the Committee stage of the bill. Members will note that the Supplementary Order Paper in the name of the Hon Phil Goff omits from clause 1 the words \u201CCriminal Justice Amendment Act (No 7)\u201D, and substitutes the words \u201CCriminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Act\u201D. That means that this will not be an amendment bill; it will become a separate bill, in its own right. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThis bill will be welcomed by judges, who have been working under a difficult situation. It amends the principal Act to allow people who are mentally impaired by insanity\u2014by a mental illness\u2014or by intellectual disability, the ability to have the defence of being unfit to stand trial on either of those grounds. If that is found, and the court is satisfied that the defendant who has been involved in an offence either has a severe mental illness and is insane, and therefore is unfit to stand trial, or has an intellectual disability that makes that person unaware of the consequences of his or her actions, then that person can be found not guilty on those grounds but be placed in an appropriate level of care to protect the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI am very concerned that the proposed amendments to the Criminal Justice Act on the Supplementary Order Paper remove the requirement that persons found unfit to stand trial, or acquitted on account of insanity, must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with. That is the way the bill was, but it is now to be changed to allow the courts to decide whether to grant bail and whether a person can then go back into community care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EUnderstandably, the need to protect the public is paramount. However, I have immense concerns about this. We have just had the report on the case of Paul Ellis, who was considered to have a mental illness. His family approached psychiatrists and doctors for care. He was committed to a hospital to be assessed under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act, but he sought a judicial review. He managed to get that review after only a very few hours in hospital. The doctors had not had time to complete an appropriate assessment, so, when Mr Ellis came up before the judge, he was discharged. The very sad and tragic consequences were that he then attacked and killed his father. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe amendments on the Supplementary Order Paper allow a judge to discharge somebody, or to grant bail and let him or her back into the community, before inquiries can be made to determine how he or she should be dealt with. Sometimes that takes time. We know that our facilities are full. We know that we do not have enough resources. Therefore, we may not have the beds. If we do not have the beds in, say, an intellectually disabled care facility that gives 24-hour locked care, what will happen? Pressure will be on for those people to go back to their families. That is what we wish to avoid. We want to be able to put people in a situation where a care plan can be made. If someone has an intellectual disability and his or her behaviour deteriorates to the point where he or she ends up before a court due to having broken the law because of assault, indecent exposure, or other anti-social behaviour, then in that situation it can take time to put together an appropriate care plan. Often the social situation can be very difficult, with families struggling to cope. If time is given, a care plan can be put together. If the situation is rushed, that will not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022650b58f164624149ada3bf82c4eea085\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022650b58f164624149ada3bf82c4eea085\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E The Committee stage gives us the opportunity to ask the Minister to explain why, with such sensitive legislation as this\u2014when 4 years ago there was clearly cross-party cooperation and collaboration\u2014he has brought the bill in, under urgency, and also changed some aspects of the care of people affected. It is important that the Minister stands and gives an adequate explanation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAs I said earlier, this bill involves a particularly vulnerable cross-section of New Zealanders. It is absolutely important to get it right. There is no doubt that the judiciary has supported these changes. In fact, I note that just recently the Dominion Post pointed out comments made by one of the judges, who very much welcomes that finally something has been done that will save witnesses and juries from the unnecessary anguish of having to consider in detail awful events, about which there is no contest on the issue of insanity. He goes on to point out once more that the major decisions were made in 1999 and 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E There is absolutely no excuse for the Labour Government letting this bill lie for the last 2 to 3 years and now suddenly bringing it in under urgency. As my colleague Dr Lynda Scott was just saying, there is an area of considerable concern in the explanatory note to the Supplementary Order Paper. It points out that instead of the mandatory remand provision, the Supplementary Order Paper will give the courts the option of remanding such persons on bail. However, in deciding whether to grant bail, the need to protect the public is the paramount consideration. A fair amount of discretion is being given to the courts in a situation that not only might endanger the public but also might endanger the individual. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists has said that at least two formal psychiatric opinions are needed in terms of assessing. In fact, I believe that the bill does not allow for that as being compulsory. It is optional. The other assessor may be a psychologist or other similar health assessor. However, clearly this bill allows for a variety of discretions to occur. We now find that on a Supplementary Order Paper, brought in under urgency by this Labour Government, a substantial change is being made, and a substantial concern raised, in terms of saying on the one hand that paramount consideration is given to the safety of the public\u2014that is absolutely vital\u2014but on the other hand that the court has the discretion to decide whether someone remains on bail. That is clearly something we hope the Minister will also take a call on. I can see the Minister nodding. I hope he will carefully explain why there has been such a delay in this important bill, and also why he has not continued to foster the cross-party support that was enjoyed by all members of the Health Committee some 4 years ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022e3c3d13d94614c95bcd2e7bf55d752e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e3c3d13d94614c95bcd2e7bf55d752e8\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I will respond to the comments made by Dr Hutchison and Dr Scott. First, the question has been raised about the length of the Supplementary Order Paper. The Supplementary Order Paper is as long as it is because this new legislation has been recast as a stand-alone Act, not as part of the Criminal Justice Act, as it was introduced. Therefore, most of what is in the Supplementary Order Paper is what is required in order to turn it from an amendment to a bill that is shortly to be totally repealed, to a stand-alone Act. So most of this material is purely technical. It is to create it as a stand-alone Act. It makes sense to make it a stand-alone Act and to have a title that better reflects what it does. This is not about criminal justice, because this is about people who are deemed to be not responsible for their acts in a criminal sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003ESecondly, we would not want to keep the legislation called the Criminal Justice Act, when that Act is about to be repealed. Most of it has already been superseded by the Sentencing Act and the Parole Act. I mention the point made about multiparty support. Yes, there has been multiparty support, and there has been that support in the Chamber tonight. Every party in the Chamber has agreed that this is necessary legislation and will be supporting it. Yes, it is important that we get it passed now, and, therefore, I hope that the matter will not be unnecessarily delayed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EI now want to come to the key point about the mandatory requirement. The original Act has a requirement that the judge must remand the individuals in a hospital or secure facility while inquiries are made about the most suitable method of dealing with them. Clearly, in most cases where a person is found unfit to plead or not guilty on the basis of insanity, that person will be remanded into some form of secure facility, in most cases. But it will not be the case on every occasion that it is necessary to remand a person into a secure facility. In fact, the advice I have been given by Crown Law is that by making this mandatory or leaving it mandatory, we would very likely contravene section 22 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, under which everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained. In most cases the judge will remand the person to a secure facility. But it is always important in our justice system to give a judge discretion so that the law is applied to the situation in the particular case. In every other facet of our justice system, we create that form of discretion\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe0f7de49a174b6b8c7164add515a19c\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c364aa74359465d89bc3c79c81d0678\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014and unless the member believes that a person who patently constitutes no risk at all ought nevertheless to be compulsorily detained when there is no need to do so, why would we not want to give the judge discretion? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBut within the context of the discretion, we have given a clear direction to the judge that the benefit of the doubt has to be given to the safety of the community. That is why in making the judgment the judge will be required to give paramount consideration to the safety of the community. I think everybody would agree that that is eminently sensible. It is certainly what Crown Law requires. It is certainly what the Human Rights Commission would support, and I think that every reasonable person in the House would say that that is sensible. We should err on the side of caution, but we should not create a mandatory situation that fails to take into account those situations where a person constitutes no risk and should be able to be remanded on bail into the care of an appropriate person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u002200736375549442d89aad5352e0583e19\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002200736375549442d89aad5352e0583e19\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I know it must be late in the night because, clearly, the Minister was not even listening to himself, as he said that this bill is about people who are not responsible for their criminal acts. So what he is saying is that people who are not responsible for their criminal acts and who may be involved in criminal acts can be, possibly, let out on bail. When people are involved in criminal acts, often very serious ones, they should not be let out on bail in the first place. Here we have the situation where a person who is not responsible\u2014which is a polite way of saying that the person is, possibly, insane\u2014and who has committed a criminal act is to be allowed out on bail. What absolute rubbish! Is this not the same Phil Goff who, when he was in Opposition, constantly opposed the granting of bail? Did he not, time and time again, when he was in Opposition, say that criminals should not be let out on bail? Now what he is saying is that not only should they be let out on bail, but that even if they are criminally insane they should be let out on bail. That is what he is saying. He is giving criminally insane people the opportunity to go out on bail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will not be supporting this Supplementary Order Paper. It is absolutely ridiculous. I asked United Future what the Sensible Sentencing Trust would say about this. We are talking about a person who, as the Minister himself said in a short speech a few moments ago, has committed a criminal act and who is insane, and the Minister is going to give that person the opportunity to get bail. That person should not get bail, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe select committee was right when it considered this bill initially and said there should be a mandatory provision of no bail. Is that not what the select committee considered, as I understand it? That was the select committee\u2019s original consideration, as has been read out by Dr Hutchison in the explanatory note. Instead of the mandatory remand provision, the Supplementary Order Paper gives the court the option of remanding such persons on bail. As members of this Chamber we quite often criticise the courts for granting sane people bail. We have been upset, and Phil Goff has been upset, when visibly sane people have been given bail. Now he is supporting visibly insane people who have committed criminal acts, the opportunity to get bail. What absolute ridiculous nonsense on the part of this Minister! It is as simple as that, is it not? That is the simple fact of the matter. This Labour Government, and this Minister Phil Goff, when in Opposition stood here, as Labour Opposition members did from time to time, and opposed bail. And what was Mr Maharey\u2019s view? It was just that: \u201CWell, that was when we were in Opposition.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1fdec59e7e4473ab910199ee663b112\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: The \u201DMaharey principle\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285fb3c73cf414c4cbe53454ef1fe852c\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D is well and truly in practice tonight. It may be twenty minutes to midnight, but here we have the \u201CMaharey principle\u201D in practice. Phil Goff, the man who opposed bail left, right, and centre for all sane people, is tonight supporting bail for the insane who have committed criminal acts. What an appalling piece of legislation! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWe in New Zealand First have had enough. Time and time again during this urgency we have been fed 40, 30, and, again, 40 pages of Supplementary Order Papers in respect of the Retirement Villages Bill and other legislation that we have been considering right throughout this urgency. Well, this is it. We have cooperated until now to a large extent. We have voted, I think, for just about every bill we have had under this urgency, but we cannot support this one. This legislation is itself just about insane, because it supports allowing the insane people who have committed criminal acts to be let out on bail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI am sure the doctors in this Chamber will not like me using the word \u201Cinsane\u201D, but I am a New Zealand First member and a lawyer, and I call an insane person an insane person. I do not come up with fancy phrases about people not being responsible for their criminal acts. Let us call a spade a spade, and an insane person an insane person. For a Minister of Justice to support people who, in his own words, are not responsible for their criminal acts, to be given bail\u2014well, what more can one say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis Supplementary Order Paper must go back to the select committee. It took only one hour on the previous occasion for the select committee to consider it. Can we not send it back to the select committee and give it at least another hour, so that people can make comments on it? I am sure it will come back in less than an hour, with the mandatory provision once again reinstated. What does Mrs Steve Chadwick have to say about this? This is clearly not her bill. I expect her to stand up in this Committee and say why she supports insane people getting bail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00229b518157155f4f02a99b77b5426eaed5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b518157155f4f02a99b77b5426eaed5\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to start where the previous speaker left off. The ACT party, too, has had quite enough of a lack of democracy\u2014a lack of scrutiny\u2014with this legislation. The Minister stood up before and said that his 44-page Supplementary Order Paper was necessary to the bill, and that it contained just minor changes. Why is it 44 pages long if it contains just minor changes? There has been no scrutiny of those changes, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe Minister complimented the Health Committee on its fine, very thorough work on the bill. I would like to read out a piece from page 12 of the commentary on the bill as it was reported back. It states: \u201COccasionally, Government departments will propose substantive and significant changes to bills after select committees have finished hearing submissions. We disapprove of that practice.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe committee stated that it disapproved of that practice, yet the Minister congratulated it on its work, then still put forward a 44-page Supplementary Order Paper. The commentary goes on to state: \u201CCommittees are not simply vehicles for Government amendments to legislation:\u201D\u2014and ACT New Zealand would agree with that\u2014\u201Cthey are committees of Parliament with a duty to scrutinise legislation and provide for public input so that New Zealand is provided with the best legislation possible \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI recently attended a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association seminar, and was asked to present on the select committee process in New Zealand. I must say that the other delegates from around the Commonwealth were impressed with our select committee process. They were very much in favour of the cross-party support that is often gained from that process, and they were also very impressed with the amount of public scrutiny our bills receive. Because of those very things, I felt very proud of our select committee process when I was there. I think those delegates would be appalled if I turned up today and said: \u201CWell, actually, since I spoke to you, the Government has done nothing but put up hefty Supplementary Order Papers to Government bills that do not receive scrutiny from the members of select committees, or from the public. That is clearly wrong, as the commentary on the bill as reported from the Health Committee states. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ELike New Zealand First, we in the ACT party are saying that enough is enough. We will no longer support this Supplementary Order Paper. We were very happy to support the bill, which has very sensible measures in it, but we will not put up with the lack of democracy and scrutiny that is becoming a habit with this Government. It is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMr Goff says the Supplementary Order Paper does not contain anything controversial, yet if we look at the explanatory note on the back page of it, we see in the bottom bullet point\u2014and the National Party has mentioned this, as did the New Zealand First speaker who spoke before me\u2014\u201CInstead of the mandatory remand provision,\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224442feff7d854f998b6d63fad5af43de\u0022\u003EHon Chris Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What about Donna?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0bc49a1c7654bf98601925530109aab\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps that member on the Labour side would like to stand up and take a call\u2014although that would prolong the process that those members are trying to shut down. They do not want to see democracy, or scrutiny, in this country. They will not stand up and argue this issue properly. Instead, they just hurl abuse across the Chamber. Where does that get us? I ask Mr Carter what he thinks the people of New Zealand think of that. I suspect they think very little of those tactics. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI come back to the bill and the quotation from the Supplementary Order Paper\u2019s explanatory note: \u201CInstead of the mandatory remand provision,\u201D\u2014and there is a blatant conflict here\u2014\u201Cthe Supplementary Order Paper\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bef0dcb5c7914842b13026305e53a053\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What about Mainframe?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022859a92315ff04a4fa1bfa6492e9fd6df\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Benson-Pope wants to have a go now\u2014not in his own time, but in other members\u2019 time. Perhaps he would like to read the Supplementary Order Paper. Maybe he has not had the opportunity to do that, either, because it did not come out until yesterday\u2014despite the fact that the Government has had 4 years to bring it to the attention of the New Zealand public, and to the members of the Health Committee. They should be given the opportunity now to look at the Supplementary Order Paper in some detail, so that it can be scrutinised as it should be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI go back to quoting from the explanatory note on the Supplementary Order Paper. Government members do not want to hear this, because they know they are wrong. If they were at all worried, they would listen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u002259a026d2c5a94d0bad27d1390bd8c56f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002259a026d2c5a94d0bad27d1390bd8c56f\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I was delighted to hear Dr Paul Hutchison, Dr Lynda Scott, Mr Dail Jones, and my colleague Heather Roy finally say that it is almost irrelevant what the Minister thinks he has provided in the Supplementary Order Papers we have had during this urgency. We have had page after page of amendments in Supplementary Order Papers that have been dropped on Parliament without members being provided with any adequate explanatory notes, or explanation as to why they were so late. Members of Parliament are being expected to push provisions through in 1 day, the real import of which they could have absolutely no knowledge. We cannot have any understanding of them, and I believe I am a reasonable reader of legislation. We cannot know the effect of these pages of amendments on Supplementary Order Paper 161. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EIt may well be that all of the parties on this side think this is good law that should be put through, but it would be utterly irresponsible to vote for it. It would be utterly irresponsible for Parliament to continue to connive with a Government that is so incompetent that after 4 years it has to dump this material on it, in urgency, expect us to vote for it, and for the people of New Zealand to respect Parliament while it happens. This Minister is utterly incompetent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe last time the Minister in the chair, Phil Goff, did this, he got caught. He dumped a Supplementary Order Paper on the House in respect of the Victims Rights\u2019 Bill that utterly gutted the way burglaries were prosecuted. The Minister is sitting in the chair pretending he cannot hear, but the Government dumped on Parliament a Supplementary Order Paper that reversed the effect of a unanimous select committee change to the Victims\u2019 Rights Bill that allowed the police to at least tell the court the address of a burglary. No, this Minister knew better. He did not consult the select committee, or his own members. He dumped a Supplementary Order Paper on us, and he pushed it through. What happened? Suddenly, there were 60,000 prosecutions where the police were not allowed to tell the court the address of the victims. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWould Mr Goff care to comment on just how much that has cost the country? The last time he tried to ram a Supplementary Order Paper through in these circumstances, without Parliament being able to know what was going on, it meant that in 60,000 burglary prosecutions, there was a need\u2014at an estimate, about an hour extra in procedure\u2014to explain to the court what they were doing. What was the explanation for that? Oh, it was that the officials and Mr Goff knew better than the select committee, so they just changed it back to what they had before the committee had considered it. Let us put it into a great, fat Supplementary Order Paper that no one understands, and push it through! But the Minister is begging us to allow the fix-up to go into the Statutes Amendment Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ENow we have silence on the other side of the Chamber. Now we have the three musketeers sitting there\u2014one of them with his hand over his face. Of course it is embarrassing!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c49cd8b73b5543028ded28c851cb1bcf\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: This is so funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b935b773810c4f6b88b57198c2864d1d\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: It is not funny when the member has to sit there in embarrassment with his hand over his mouth, because he knows that these kinds of Supplementary Order Papers have got Mr Goff into trouble, and when this side of the House finally says: \u201CEnough is enough. We\u2019re not going to tolerate any more of this kind of Supplementary Order Paper.\u201D Whatever the merits of the bill, we will not rubber-stamp legislation that the Minister has not explained. We will not vote for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa9fc673c8eb4d77ad7ae937ef2860b0\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: There will be fewer interjections from the Government benches. They are not making any sense. If there are interjections, they need to be relevant to the issue before us. [Interruption] I do not need any argument. I am here, you are there; I hear you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002205162139cd874d06b68f8e39004744d2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that the broadcasting of Parliament saves those people from a little bit of public disclosure of just how bereft they are. Faced in this Committee stage with 10 pages of material that they have not seen, but are expected to vote on\u2014material that they do not understand, and that this side of the Chamber certainly cannot understand\u2014all they can do is yell, and then cover their mouths with embarrassment when the consequences of the last time this Minister did that are pointed out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe Minister in the chair could perhaps explain just why this is so urgent that none of it was disclosed to the members of the committee before. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022cf1a8fc9bf494077898c25cda2fd1a85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cf1a8fc9bf494077898c25cda2fd1a85\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I know it is very late at night and all of us would rather be home. However, here we are debating the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), which is about to be turned into separate legislation by the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper\u2014that is, the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill. There is one part of this Supplementary Order Paper that we do not like, and it is having 44 pages dropped in the House the day before this debate. None of us have had a look at it. How many times have we seen this type of behaviour before? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EProblems occur when those on the select committee, the public out there, plus those who work in the particular industries, have not had time to scrutinise the Supplementary Order Paper. This is all about looking after people who have an intellectual disability or mental illness, and when found to be insane or unfit to plead will be released on bail. How many psychiatrists have had a look at these changes? How many people who work in the area have had time to look at them? Probably none, because certainly no members of the Health Committee have had time to look at them. It is absolutely unacceptable that this Government should be trying to rush them through the House, when no one has had a look at them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note to the bill talks about the court having the option of remanding persons on bail in the community, or deciding whether they have to go into a secure facility. That is a major change, and it is in clause 23, \u201CCourt orders\u201D. The Minister said there was no risk. How can he possibly say that when we are talking about a person who has been found unfit to stand trial because he or she has been determined to be insane or unfit to plead? If that were the case, surely those people should then be in a secure facility until they can be appropriately assessed and placement made in an appropriate facility? Whether or not those individuals are clinically insane due to a mental illness, they should go into a secure forensic facility, so that they can get appropriate treatment and an appropriate care plan. If it happens to be somebody who has an intellectual disability, and therefore does not understand his or her offending, does not understand the social consequences, cannot take responsibility for the criminal act in which he or she has engaged, that person also needs to be in a secure facility with access to an appropriate care plan. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWith this Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) and the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, National put its money where its mouth was. It put in $18 million to set up facilities that could care for people with an intellectual disability, who come before the courts, who actually are in a position to not be able to take responsibility for a criminal act, and therefore need secure care. It is just beyond me how the Minister can stand there and say that there is no risk. Why was that person before the courts, if there was no risk? One does not come before the courts unless there is some act that breaks the law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe will not be supporting this bill, and that is unfortunate, but the Supplementary Order Paper cannot be supported. In the select committee, we worked so well together on the original Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) to try to get a good piece of legislation that would deliver for New Zealand. We had discussions about the two levels of offending, and about the definition of health assessors. This was quite a debate, because it determined whether one needed to have a psychiatrist decide mental illness and intellectual disability, or whether psychologists could do the job. The Royal Australasian College of Psychiatrists submitted that assessment reports should be from psychiatrists if the issue was one of mental illness, and psychologists or other experts if the issue was intellectual disability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002224445b052e59486386f4cd1abd6ec5f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002224445b052e59486386f4cd1abd6ec5f6\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E It is getting close to the midnight run, for sure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222312c026372c4ce8acbdad5e6d4d97f3\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s fantastic to have you here. Great speaker from the National Party!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221122b07be9a4494c9097c309eea86d40\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: I failed to hear what the member said. There was a considerable amount of verbal\u2014I note it is getting late.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f3a2adc94b74da081bc31a6fb62760f\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: I just said it\u2019s fantastic to have you here. Great speaker from National!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241da39fd66f74a1c83db689a1b412c4e\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: The member is recognising the clarity and excellence of this speech, and it will be directed towards the Minister of Justice, who in dealing with this bill has miserably failed the parliamentary process. I called for him to make an explanation why a bill so sensitive and so important as this, where there has been cross-party collaboration, has been brought in by him 3 years later, under urgency, and without any explanation. That is clearly an abuse of parliamentary process, and it has been carried out by, of all people, the Minister of Justice! He has failed to explain why he has done that, and I would call on him to do precisely that. As Mr Franks pointed out just a few moments ago, this is the third time in the last 24 or 48 hours where this Labour Government has just continued to abuse process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt was absolutely fascinating to see that commentary, which was influenced so much by Judy Keall, who used to be here. She said: \u201COccasionally, Government departments will propose substantive and significant changes to bills after select committees have finished hearing submissions. We disapprove of that practice.\u201D Here we have this crucially important bill dealing with\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b039700954047e9be3c322ba7b73638\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Who said that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e6bedc3e49241b1a0d2dba56f95d1ac\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It is in the commentary of the select committee on this very bill. Here we are 3 years later, and none other than the Minister of Justice of this tawdry Labour Government abuses the process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from midnight to 9 a.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021c5ef1737418948f8aa83c1caba6ead11001157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022cfc47a8d2af54283942bd562ee9cf2c8\u0022\u003ETuesday, 21 October 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000002\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002233317ea936d14d4f9ae93c3b431f37f3\u0022\u003E(continued on Thursday, 23 October 2003)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002299c149d630254616874cff209bdf7407\u0022\u003ECriminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000004\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9b11a5b6fd0473d9c56010b12f92125\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000005\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f0ee9e99c5de4a0fabda0cea015f1dba\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 20 and schedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00224bb25aa4fbc545e8b1d44ce1c28699f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bb25aa4fbc545e8b1d44ce1c28699f5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: When the sitting was interrupted last night Dr Paul Hutchison was speaking and has 2 minutes 52 seconds remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002215ac2a4464c040a3a61436753b45a3d3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215ac2a4464c040a3a61436753b45a3d3\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Have I got 2 seconds remaining on this extremely important bill\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b752b562169e4063a3b16c4d9e384e1c\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member has 2 minutes remaining.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd7690ccdf6844afb3f4c4188d65b0a2\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014that was so badly handled by the Minister of Justice in an outrage of political process? Might I say again that here we have a bill on which all members of the select committee collaborated excellently, in an incredibly sensitive situation, only to find, 3 years later, the process totally abused by the Labour Minister of Justice in terms of bringing in the bill in the dead of night, under urgency, and clearly making a ridicule of the parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EUndoubtedly, this so-called Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill is one that requires considerable care and thought in the way it is delivered. We have found\u2014even in the explanatory note of the 44-page Supplementary Order Paper, so inappropriately brought in by the Minister of Justice\u2014several instances where there are serious concerns as to the considerations he has given to protect the public, and has totally forgotten that the other vital consideration is care of the individuals concerned. Because of that, it leads me to believe that there would be great benefit in the Government actually backing down and withdrawing the bill, to allow further consideration and deliberation by the select committee. In fact, I would go so far as seeking leave to ask that the Government withdraw this bill, and instead take it back to the select committee where appropriate considered thought can be given to these hugely important issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI was quite surprised to find that New Plymouth Crown solicitor, Tim Brewer, when he was appointed law commissioner in 1997, said that this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f9bccbad7e848a9aba53e86d747c8e0\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s last century.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a0bbc1442fca424da594ffbf191c3ec5\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: It might have been last century; however, it was 4 years ago that this bill was considered by the select committee, and that is the huge inappropriateness of the way the Labour Government has brought it in under urgency. Crown solicitor, Tim Brewer, said that this was one of the changes to the law he was determined to promote.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee231e5294c424ea0c337ed86d634a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee231e5294c424ea0c337ed86d634a5\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u00226484e854fda243519461d72158f590cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226484e854fda243519461d72158f590cf\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I have to rise and put it on to the record, so that the Minister is aware, that New Zealand First will not support Supplementary Order Paper 161, and I will explain why. Quite simply, we have had some discussion, and whilst we may accept the Minister\u2019s explanations at the Table today, I think this is a point of procedure and process. It pains me somewhat because, as I pointed out in my earlier speech, this bill has been 4 years in its gestation\u20144 years of Labour governance. This bill has sat for 4 years beneath the pile on the Order Paper. For 4 years we have watched other bills and other legislation of lesser significance go through. Here we are with a Supplementary Order Paper containing\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239779a8b41be48bbbed58678178b208f\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: It was reported back in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226340ef101fa14d1ca45c8911f4daeed3\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: What was that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022055d07547d5c4b2aaf04d4014f2de532\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: It was reported back in 2001.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279d77d34524e49fead49a5fed6e1e48f\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: It was reported back in 2001, and today we have a Supplementary Order Paper\u2014some 44 pages long\u2014dated 21 October 2003, that has not been through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc68ed0cf069476093241cb10738b33a\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: That is because it is now a stand-alone Act, rather than an amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256286e7137374f31bab340ea08d57437\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard that explanation. That may well be the explanation, but the point is that we have a select committee process that gives people\u2014particularly those who seek to support the Government\u2014the opportunity to examine the bill. We live in an era of mixed-member proportional representation. The public out there are seeking to see parties cooperating more in the interests of the nation, not this first-past-the-post nonsense where we simply stand up and say: \u201CWe won, you lost, eat that. We\u2019ve got the numbers today so we don\u2019t care about the process. We\u2019re just going to shove it through.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EQuite frankly, the public are sick of that sort of attitude and it is now reflecting in the polls. It is reflecting when I travel around the communities. When I go to Auckland, a place where I have never lived in my entire life, people walk up to me in the street, shake my hand, and say: \u201CRon Mark, good to see you.\u201D They say things to me like: \u201CWhatever happened to the old Labour Party? Has anybody seen Judith Tizard? Does anybody know Dover Samuels?\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI have to say to the Minister that he is a good Minister. There is a lot this Minister does that I actually respect. He does a pretty good job in foreign affairs. However, he has brought a Supplementary Order Paper of some 44-odd pages to the floor, without having given people the opportunity to go through it and understand precisely its implications. Members should look at the bail provisions. If anything will get the hackles up of New Zealand First members it is the suggestion that a person who is deemed to be insane should be given bail. That needs full explanation. We need to understand that, and we will not get that understanding in a Committee stage where Labour Government members refuse to take calls and make any explanation. I say to the Minister in the chair that he is an exception in this respect. At least this Minister, Mr Phil Goff, has stood and taken a few calls in the Committee stage. He is an exception, and we appreciate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe watched Margaret Wilson sit in that chair for hour after hour, day after day. She might as well have been doing her knitting because she did not take one call. She displayed the sort of arrogance that Mr Goff will have to fight hard to pull back on the hustings. But on this, I think, he has let us down. We look to him in so many ways for good performance. He is one of the shining stars. He actually looks like Tony Blair in many ways, and he is right up there. When I was in the Labour Party we had earmarked this man as a future leader of the Labour Party, and it still could happen. Helen Clark\u2019s star is fading, and Mr Goff is right there, beautifully poised, untouched, and untainted. But little things like this do not do his reputation any good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc9bc507d44e54bda57150ac87b0f6\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: This is the first one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d42313f15aa4149bbd806fe185532f0\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: This is the first black mark on his copybook.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221cc2151a3672477090953bf8c42e09bb\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The barbecue!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b00b85712ec44e1e9d8942737b82239b\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: The barbecue season is coming up, and we are in a prime position to launch this coup and get things rolling. However, to move Supplementary Order Papers like this one, at such a late hour, without giving us the opportunity to put it in front of our health spokesperson or the select committee, even if it was for only an hour, is totally unacceptable.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u00221333f96d6bbc4261995016732d4aa8f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221333f96d6bbc4261995016732d4aa8f5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I am worried about some of the comments Ron Mark made. It really concerned me to start with, because to praise this Minister in such a wholesome way is a real worry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261971bc1b683447289e6e0d09baa3288\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: You do it privately to me all the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220101498b6cc04bf5a353efbb029a16cd\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Excuse me! The Minister said that he would not mention that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279f38bd70ebd483e92534593fb05af8b\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s three blots.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267a6ae60fbce41e99ba9b6deecb20156\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right. That is three blots on the Minister\u2019s copybook now. If the Minister relies on me for support he is in real trouble. It must be too early in the morning; I cannot believe that my colleague would be quite so fulsome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EHowever, having said that, I want to pick up the point he made. From a procedural issue, it concerns me that here we are in urgency on a bill that was reported back in 2001. It has been around for a long, long time. In fact, it has been sitting here for a couple of years. Suddenly we get a Supplementary Order Paper of 44 pages, which most members have not had an opportunity to digest at all. Although it is true that the Minister may have taken a couple of calls, I want to draw his attention to a couple of sections and ask him whether he would take a call perhaps to elaborate on what they mean. The Supplementary Order Paper, on page 34, under the heading \u201CJuries Act 1981\u201D, states: \u201CRepeal the definition of mentally disordered in section 2 and substitute the following definition:\u201D. The definition states: \u201Cmental disorder, in relation to any person, means an abnormal state of mind (whether of a continuous or an intermittent nature) that is\u2014(a) characterised by delusions, \u2026\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThat really concerns me. Where did the Minister get that from? Was he looking at the Prime Minister when he wrote that? Was he looking at his colleagues when he put in the words\u2014\u201Ccharacterised by delusions\u201D? Bless my soul. The wording goes on\u2014and I wonder whether the Minister was thinking of the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs\u2014to state \u201Cor disorders of mood\u201D. Bless my soul. Our Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs often interests this House when he is answering questions. I wonder whether the Minister may have had the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs in mind. The wording states further \u201Cor perception or volition or\u201D\u2014good grief, all these words get difficult to pronounce! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe point I am making to the Minister is that members needed time to digest what this means. The definition states further \u201C(b) not induced by substance abuse; \u2026\u201D. Well, goodness gracious, I wonder whether the Greens think about that, for example. One would have to wonder whether they have an interest in that sort of thing, and whether they\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc2fa4e64e974b1083591015edc52203\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Who is the member thinking of?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291b5c1ff52424b7884d78d958f25a0a5\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There are one or two people who immediately spring to mind, and one wonders why one would leave them out. That is the point. This is why the Supplementary Order Paper needs to be thoroughly examined. The point that Ron Mark was making, and the point that my colleagues have been making, is that it is just not good enough, it is not a fair procedure, to load this House, in urgency, at 9 o\u2019clock on a Thursday morning\u2014[Interruption] Well, that may be true, and that is the point. How can one digest a 44-page document, when one has been in this place for as long as we have now, and try to understand what it means? It will affect the lives of many New Zealanders. We can jest and laugh, and from time to time have a smile, but it is a serious point. I tell the Minister that it does cause me concern that suddenly we need this volume of change to a bill. Why could this bill not have been brought to the House\u2019s attention a lot earlier, and perhaps referred back to the select committee for a couple of weeks for examination? Would that not have been more sensible? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOne of the disappointing things is that our members did not know about the Supplementary Order Paper until it arrived in the House. At least we could have been briefed on it, and that would have been very useful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00227787f9fdf64748a08b0617ad0a982544\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227787f9fdf64748a08b0617ad0a982544\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I will do the member the honour of taking him seriously. The definition of \u201Cmental disorder\u201D was well known by his colleagues, because this is the same definition that he and his colleagues put into the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 11 years ago. Also, that is the definition put into the original bill that this Supplementary Order Paper is based on. That is well known to his colleagues. They have been aware of this definition for over a decade. This can be no surprise to the member or any of his hopefully better informed colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002284edde480ce24b72b98b7ba87e62c0a6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002284edde480ce24b72b98b7ba87e62c0a6\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise during the Committee stage of this bill to talk again about the lack of scrutiny\u2014scrutiny that should exist with the select committee process. The Minister tries to tell us that there is no risk with these amendments, and that they are all fine. If the changes are so good, why is he is so reluctant to let this legislation go back to the Health Committee so that it can have the scrutiny and get the cross-party support that the original bill had? I was not on that select committee at the time, but I understand there were no dissenting members. There was general agreement that the bill was a good thing. My reading of it shows that there are many positive changes in it. But I do worry about the facts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESomething that is becoming increasingly common with this Government\u2014despite the fact that select committees have come to general agreement about bills\u2014is the throwing in of long Supplementary Order Papers at the last minute. This one is 44 pages long, and other ones that we have seen in this urgency have also been long. The Gambling Bill a few weeks ago had a Supplementary Order Paper that was 65 pages long. This is clearly unacceptable. The Minister complimented the select committee on its work, yet completely ignored part of its report that said that it did not agree with the fact that a Government can put in last-minute amendments, many of them of a technical nature, without scrutiny. The select committee said it was clearly against this. So the Minister compliments the select committee, then completely ignores the advice that was given in the commentary on the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ENo doubt the Minister had a lot of advice when writing this Supplementary Order Paper, but what about the advice of the legal profession that could be gained through the select committee process if this Supplementary Order Paper were taken back? What about the advice of the medical profession? I would have thought that they had the right to look at these amendments and comment on them at the very least, and give their very good and thorough advice to the members of the select committee who might well, in the final instance, agree to what is in the Supplementary Order Paper. But none of us have had a chance to look properly at this. What about the doctors and the lawyers who should have been given an opportunity to look at the Supplementary Order Paper and its new provisions? They have not seen it either. No doubt the Ministry of Health has had a finger in the pie. Officials were probably involved in this. I would like to remind members of the fiasco we had with the smoke-free legislation and the contracts in that. We know that the lobby groups, which the Government favours, have been given funding specifically to go and lobby MPs. I would say that their judgment is seriously under question when the Government is allowing this sort of thing to happen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAs I flicked through the Supplementary Order Paper\u2014we have not had time to look at it thoroughly\u2014I saw that on page 39 it talks about the Parole Act. There is an insertion under the definition of \u201Csecure facility\u201D that states: \u201Csecure facility means a secure facility within the meaning of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Act 2003\u201D. Now, I ask the Minister to correct me if I am wrong, but have I missed something here? If I look at the Order Paper I see that the next bill for debate is the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill. I thought that in fact we do not have at the moment an Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Act 2003. At the moment it is in bill form. What the Minister expects us to do here is approve something that does not exist at the moment. We need royal assent for the next bill, the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, before we can get royal assent for this Supplementary Order Paper that we are debating at the moment\u2014the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill, which the Minister wants to change the name of, too. How can that be? I am not a lawyer. I would like the Minister to stand up and tell us how we can actually approve something that does not exist and is not to be debated until we get to the next item on the Order Paper. How are we supposed to pass this without having passed the legislation that the Minister is talking about? Have I missed something here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022198aada5d37c472ca55667070ed0a417\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285691f0dc88341cc85597b6906080eb5\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, obviously I have. Perhaps the Minister could stand and point it out. I am not a lawyer, and I know that the Minister previously was. That advice would be very much welcomed. I tell the Minister that perhaps this should have gone to the select committee to have proper scrutiny. That comment is from me, just as a layperson, looking through this Supplementary Order Paper and finding things that do not seem to add up. What else is hidden in this Supplementary Order Paper that we do not know about? We have not had the opportunity to debate this, or the opportunity to take it back to select committee and look at it properly. The Minister may well laugh, but it is not funny.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad22353cbd6c4bf883f77a4a4dd73929\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad22353cbd6c4bf883f77a4a4dd73929\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022f682a4724b5a406b8e323bdd70c1cf61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f682a4724b5a406b8e323bdd70c1cf61\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E This bill was introduced on 5 October 1999\u20144 years ago\u2014then in 2001 the Health Committee returned it back to this House. The chair, Judy Keall, in her report back said, and I quote from page 12: \u201COccasionally, Government departments will propose substantive and significant changes to bills after select committees have finished hearing submissions.\u201D\u2014this is a Labour Party chair\u2014\u201CWe disapprove of that practice. Committees are not simply vehicles for Government amendments to legislation: they are committees of Parliament with a duty to scrutinise legislation and provide for public input so that New Zealand is provided with the best legislation possible, reflecting a wide range of interests.\u201D The Labour Party chair of the Health Committee said that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat do we have today? We have a Supplementary Order Paper being rushed through under urgency that we first saw only on Tuesday, 21 October\u2014today; in parliamentary time it is still Tuesday, 21 October\u2014and it is 44 pages long. Even as a lawyer I find it difficult to grasp everything in this bill, but one thing that is very clear is in the explanatory note of Supplementary Order Paper 161\u2014and I hope the people who support the Sensible Sentencing Trust viewpoint are listening to this, especially the United Future people. The explanatory note says the Supplementary Order Paper is intended to \u201Cremove the current requirement that persons found unfit to stand trial or who are acquitted on account of insanity must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with.\u201D So the current bill, approved by the select committee, has a mandatory remand provision; this explanatory note says that, instead of a mandatory remand provision, the Supplementary Order Paper gives the courts the option of remanding such persons on bail. What an appalling piece of legislation! I understand that the Ellis inquiry report came out yesterday. The person involved in that inquiry was given bail by a Family Court judge. Look what happened while that person was on bail! The Minister of Justice now wants to multiply that situation. This bill must go back to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI want to know what United Future members will do about this matter. Are they keen on harsh sentencing? I have heard a lot from Marc Alexander about this issue. Where will United Future stand? This morning, barely after 9 o\u2019clock, I saw Darren Hughes having a long talk with Paul Adams. I wonder what Darren Hughes was telling Paul Adams. Perhaps it was \u201CVote this way or else!\u201D. I would be very interested to hear what happened in that conversation. United Future was getting its instructions to be the lap dog of the Labour Party, as usual, and was being told to support a bill that is soft on law and order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EWhat will the chair of the Health Committee say about this? This bill took only 1 hour in the Health Committee when it first came in. It will take less than an hour if it goes back to the select committee on this occasion, and it will be back in the House in a fortnight.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Minister said yesterday that people have to be given the opportunity to have bail because of the human rights aspect of the matter. That was not a problem in the bill originally. The Human Rights Commission went to the Health Committee, and it had no problem with the mandatory bail provision, as I see it. The Human Rights Commission has supported it. The Minister\u2019s advice and the Minister\u2019s statement are all poppycock. It is absolute nonsense to suggest that it might be a human rights matter or a New Zealand Bill of Rights Act matter. The advice he has been given is appalling. It is absolutely appalling to suggest there could be a human rights issue, when the Human Rights Commission has already supported the mandatory requirement to stay on remand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcc76e569846490aa0ccd3f8a7df5edd\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: It has not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b3a9c2acd141c389b943d3c36655cd\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: It has, in the original bill. I tell the Minister to read the original bill that he is trying to amend under urgency. The mandatory bail provision, as he says in his own explanatory note, is being taken out. That is what the Minister is doing, even though he does not seem to know it. We are talking about all those criminally insane people out there being let out on bail as a result of this Labour Party legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb206774544f414cb8e8105f1e212d42\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t be silly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cd9cb63e15748e4bd8d4208ed5956c8\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Those were the Minister\u2019s own words last night, by inference. He used a politically correct viewpoint. Clearly, that is what this bill is all about. People who are unfit to stand trial or are insane will have the opportunity to have bail granted to them, as a result of this legislation. New Zealand First says that is wrong, and is a ground in itself for opposing this legislation. We are the law and order party in this Parliament. We stand by what we said.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220855014e92a44044a7cead059073e46c\u0022\u003EGeorgina Beyer\u003C/span\u003E: You are not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002263f2a6cf61f34512be5db3146a091e41\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, we are. If the member had any regard for law and order, she would not be supporting people who are insane and having these problems getting bail. It is no wonder there are so many problems in the Wairarapa, with representations like that from its member, Georgina Beyer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022b548320a2d7243a29c38ccaea7f30983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b548320a2d7243a29c38ccaea7f30983\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E Labour should not rush to try to shut down this debate. The issue that various members of the Opposition have raised is very serious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI want to highlight to the Committee the unacceptability of a Supplementary Order Paper of 44 pages being introduced like this; we do not have the time to scrutinise it in the way that a select committee might do. One of the important changes that is introduced by the Supplementary Order Paper, as stated there, is to \u201Cremove the current requirement that persons found unfit to stand trial or who are acquitted on account of insanity must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with. Instead of the mandatory remand provision, the Supplementary Order Paper gives the courts the option of remanding such persons on bail.\u201D When I inquired of the Minister of Justice and officials last night, for a full 10 minutes they could not point me to the place where that provision is. Why should the minority Labour Government be surprised at the outrage, when it cannot even tell us where in the Supplementary Order Paper that significant change is?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI am sure the Minister was well meaning when he said that these changes are all technical changes, and they aim only to rearrange the original bill. But we have heard that approach being taken in the House too many times. Whenever we have been told there are technical changes or reformatting, we find out that, invariably, some important changes have been introduced, or some wording has been changed that, on the surface, does not seem to cause a great change but, upon close scrutiny by the select committee, turns out to change the legislation significantly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELet me come back to this controversial provision that has been introduced that gives the court the discretion to remand an individual who has been found unfit to stand trial. The new provisions say that the court has to take into account, when making that discretion, that the public interest is Parliament\u2019s primary consideration. We have no doubt that the court always tries to take into account the public interest. Unfortunately, we are putting the court and the judges in a position where they will have to act like a person who has medical skill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis is a very serious issue. Yesterday we had the Ellis inquiry report. So many times we hear of people who, because of mental impairment, are not responsible for their actions, yet have committed a crime. To introduce such discretion, no matter how well meaning it is, will cause problems for individuals who are mentally impaired, because whenever a tragedy or problem occurs, the public tends to blame those individuals, in the first instance, rather than the system. People will start to say: \u201CWell, put those people in secure places.\u201D These individuals need protection from themselves most of the time, and others also need to be protected from them. We should not, once again, try to put these hard decisions back on the judges. The law should be clear: in terms of people with a mental impairment who might be a risk to themselves and to other people, Parliament as a whole should give a clear direction, rather than our once again giving a difficult decision to the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e52cb6306d674aba864347cea2db7107\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e52cb6306d674aba864347cea2db7107\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022575460fd4f4b469a80944fbfb7e4b4c9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022575460fd4f4b469a80944fbfb7e4b4c9\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E The Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), in its original form, cleared up some of the major problems in dealing with people who have a mental illness or an intellectual disability who come before the courts. Very significant issues are involved in determining special patient status, in determining whether somebody should be in a prison or a mental institution\u2014a hospital that could treat that person\u2019s mental illness. We know that this country has a huge number of people in prison today who have a mental illness. When they come before the court, it is a matter of whether there are grounds for saying they are unfit to stand trial because they have a mental disorder or an intellectual disability. Initially, we changed the definition from \u201Cmental disorder\u201D to \u201Cmentally impaired\u201D because it gave a broader definition. It was not defined. It was left undefined to avoid the possibility of leaving a gap in the legislation. It is difficult at times to determine how much a person is responsible for his or her actions when he or she commits a crime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe other part of the bill we talked about was the understanding of the police, the Ministry of Justice, our judges, and our JPs of the issues of mental health and intellectual disability. Having been a nurse and a doctor, I am very used to dealing in those fields; it always surprises me that members of the public, when I start to talk to them, really do not want to know. Some really have very limited understanding. Originally, we saw that the police needed increased training in this area to be able to determine whether a person who had committed a crime had a mental illness. I think that issue has improved a lot, but I am not too sure whether it has improved with regard to intellectual disability. We heard at the select committee of cases of people who had a really staggering gait because of something like cerebral palsy being considered to be drunk, and of cases of people who had other conditions being misinterpreted as acting in an inappropriate way. There does need to be more understanding in society of those who have an intellectual disability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EFor people who come up before the courts, the definition of whether a person has an intellectual disability is someone who is mentally impaired enough not to understand the consequences of his or her action, or, for somebody who has a mental illness, at the time of committing the offence is clinically insane and not responsible for his or her actions. A finding of unfitness does not involve a determination of criminal liability, and it can therefore lead to civil detention. There was a lot of discussion about that fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI note the Minister\u2019s Supplementary Order Paper 161. I have to say that a Supplementary Order Paper of that size should not be brought before members in this way. Members of the select committee and members of other parliamentary parties have not had time to peruse it. It is absolute arrogance for the Minister to bring in such a substantial Supplementary Order Paper, which not only proposes changes to the original amendment bill but also proposes a completely separate, stand-alone bill. Psychiatrists have not had time to look at it; neither have people working in the field, nor people working in the field of criminal justice. To say \u201CTrust us, we know what we\u2019re doing.\u201D is to ask us to take a leap of faith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhy do we have a select committee process? I would like the Minister to tell us why we have a select committee process. I think the select committee process is excellent because it allows for the scrutiny of legislation. Often the officials who draw up a bill are doing their very best work, but they are not out in the field, and they do not always know how a point of law will be interpreted. That is why we have a select committee process\u2014so that those issues can come under the scrutiny of not just other members of Parliament but the professions and those working in the field. Those people can go to the select committee and tell it that what it thinks is meant will not happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u00223a907dcfffa9443887283f449b1599ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223a907dcfffa9443887283f449b1599ed\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u00229655bf5bc944499c8619501acd2aa643\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229655bf5bc944499c8619501acd2aa643\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am struggling to understand the reason for Supplementary Order Paper 161. I listened to this debate last night, mostly on the radio as I was returning from the Manawatu, where I had been looking after Mr Hughes\u2019 folk. But I did not hear anything that really informed me why the Minister of Justice introduced a 44-page Supplementary Order Paper, and why the criminal justice amendment was being\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea20e7f78021406baa5bf32c4b77645f\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Ann Hartley)\u003C/span\u003E: There is too much running commentary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022646ee8b172404836ae343b2f308c55f2\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: Thank you. I believe that Mr Goff would have had reasons that he regarded as substantial. I am quite sure there must have been some significant reason why, after 4 years, those pages should be delivered to this House on Tuesday to change substantially something that had been the subject of a largely consensual process in the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI call on the Minister to explain to us even the most elementary things. For example, what is the principle that lies behind the Supplementary Order Paper? How does it differ from the provisions in the bill? Do we still have the same distinction between those who are mentally impaired, and therefore unlikely to recover, and those who are mad? Are the mentally impaired to be dealt with in this legislation in a way that is different from the way that those who are mad are dealt with? Is there room after all this time, or will there be room consistent with this legislation, to improve criminal law in a way that many New Zealanders would like to see\u2014that is, that we get rid of all the wasted hearings on whether a person is insane? People really want to know whether he or she did it, and whether to go toward a verdict of guilty but insane. In other words, insanity or mental impairment goes to the form of sentence, whether it is punishment or treatment, but does not go to whether the person concerned will be subject to custody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI understand that the principle in the bill, as it came back from the Health Committee, was to draw a humane distinction between those who are sane and guilty, those who are insane and guilty, and also those who are mentally impaired and therefore cannot be held responsible for their actions, even though insanity is not the correct verdict. What I cannot tell, in all the pages of amendments, is just what is so urgent that it has made the Minister choose not to let the medical profession, or people involved in dealing with the consequences of impaired people\u2019s actions, consider them. For example, in relation to the inquiry into the Ellis case that has just been reported, did anyone involved in it have an opportunity to consider the changes now coming before the Committee? Why would the Government not make sure that all these thousands of words were made available to the people who have been closely involved in these tragedies, and ask them whether they are an improvement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EWhat is the Government trying to hide? Is it trying to hide something, or is it just frustrated with democracy? Is it simply impatient with the questions members of Parliament ask in a select committee on behalf of New Zealanders? Is it its view that \u201CWe know best and we are sick of being held up.\u201D? Laws should not be done by decree. With all the bills that have been dealt with during this urgency, I ask Mr Goff what led the Government to land on this House changes that nobody in the House, other than the Minister and perhaps any cronies he has let into the know, has a clue about. What led to a Supplementary Order Paper like this being delivered without any explanation? The explanatory note for 44 pages of Supplementary Order Paper consists of four paragraphs. Why did the medical profession not get a chance to come and comment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8f8adfbcda9490ea083b756f5f754b5\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Because there are no changes related to the medical aspects of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce0889664c174529a8ec4ad9ebeaeee5\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister is answering by way of interjection, and I value that; if that is all we are going to get, it is better than nothing. The Minister says it is because there are no changes that relate to the medical profession. In that case, whom do they relate to? There is a whole set of new definitions in the Supplementary Order Paper, including \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D, \u201Cmedical practitioner\u201D, \u201Cpsychologist\u201D, \u201Cspecial care recipient\u201D, and \u201Cunfit to stand trial\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c132157df77c4a3a83b4db3e52b0e70d\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: They\u2019re all in the original.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3e13510ea924520a2c90d923565343e\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister why there is a substitution. What is the explanation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e73083216ec640cd9ff2da74873302fd\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Because it\u2019s a stand-alone Act, not an amendment to another.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ca57370bf9794e1e944940d2408b3903\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says it is because it is to be a stand-alone Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00224bd9f0bd24294e90add8a24266953366\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bd9f0bd24294e90add8a24266953366\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ea7ef73cdc78413384a572e5e084656e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000085\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendments in the name of the Hon Phil Goff to proposed clause 2 and proposed clause 49A set out on Supplementary Order Paper 161 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000086\u0022\u003Eto amend clause 2, set out on Supplementary Order paper No 161, by adding the following new subclause:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000087\u0022\u003E(2)\tDespite subsection (1), if the date appointed under that subsection is prior to the commencement of section 4A of the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995, section 49A comes into force on that commencement; and\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000088\u0022\u003Eto omit new clause 49A, as set out on Supplementary Order Paper No 161, and  substitute the following:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000089\u0022\u003E49A\tAmendments to Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000090\u0022\u003E(1)\tIn this section, the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995 is called \u201Cthe Act\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000091\u0022\u003E(2)\tSection 2(1) of the Act is amended by adding to paragraph (c) of the definition of conviction the word \u201C; and\u201D, and by also adding the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000092\u0022\u003E(d)\ta finding that the person is unfit to stand trial;\u2014.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000093\u0022\u003E(3)\tSection 4A(1) of the Act is amended by repealing paragraph (c), and substituting the following paragraphs:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000094\u0022\u003E(c)\tin, or on leave from, a hospital\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000095\u0022\u003E(i)\tunder section 46 of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1993; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000096\u0022\u003E(ii)\tfollowing an application under section 45(2) of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1993; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000097\u0022\u003E(iii)\tunder an order under section 34(1)(a)(i) of the Criminal Procedure (Mentally  Impaired Persons) Act 2003; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000098\u0022\u003E(d)\tin, or on leave from, a secure facility\u2014\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000099\u0022\u003E(i)\tfollowing an application under  section 29(1) of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Act 2003; or\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000100\u0022\u003E(ii)\tunder an order under section 34(1)(a)(ii) of the Criminal Procedure (Mentally  Impaired Persons) Act 2003.\u201D\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000101\u0022\u003E(4)\tSection 46(1) of the Act is amended by adding to paragraph (d) the word \u201C; or\u2019, and by also adding the following paragraph:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000102\u0022\u003E(e)\tin a facility under the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Act 2003.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002268162804f3274b298707c82470d90af2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments to the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments to the amendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000103\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 161 in the name of the Hon Phil Goff, as amended, be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022efeac7ec5faf40c0acdf677695ee0773\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002271b32e57fb5c4b7c9d090dfc4f5483c6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That clauses 1 to 20, and the schedule as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 6.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 20, and schedule, as amended, agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000104\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000105\u0022\u003EName changed to the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5bfab0131a14f03aa400d197a950e6b\u0022\u003ECriminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bcec6245ff3c43ae9076f486a6a37c24\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c95f9972275f4efdb1c68afcc460da15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c95f9972275f4efdb1c68afcc460da15\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill be now read a third time. This was a bill that was supported by all parties in the House, but a number of them chose\u2014because, I guess, they had to fill in their debating time\u2014to try to find fault with it. The one fault they claimed to find was that Supplementary Order Paper 161 was 44 pages long. I had explained to the Committee a number of times that the reason for the Supplementary Order Paper was that this bill, which began life as the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), had now become stand alone Act. The reason for that was quite clearly that the Criminal Justice Act is in the process of being fully repealed, and \u201CCriminal Justice\u201D as a title for this bill was no longer appropriate because the thrust of this bill was that a person who was found not to be competent to stand trial, or who was found to be insane, was, therefore, not criminally culpable. That was accepted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EMembers remarked on the fact that there was an explanatory note. That made it absolutely clear, but a little bit of politics went on in the debate. There was, however, one change that is a change of policy, and that change is that the Supplementary Order Paper amends the mandatory requirement that a person be remanded to a hospital or secure facility while inquiries are made about the most suitable method for dealing with that person. Normally, a person who is found unfit to stand trial or insane will be remanded to a hospital or a secure facility, but that will not inevitably be the case. The person may, for example, be charged with a relatively minor offence. There may be advice to the judge, by health and psychiatric experts, that the individual constitutes no risk to the community, at all. There may be cases like that, and on that basis the Crown Law advice to the Government was that a mandatory requirement is likely to contravene section 22 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, under which everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained. I would have thought that most members in the House would accept that as a matter of common sense, but what we have done as a safeguard\u2014because I believe the public has the right to that safeguard\u2014is that, in making in the decision, the judge must have regard to the fact that the paramount consideration must be the public safety. Dr Hutchison said, quite rightly, that we also have to have concern for the patient. I accept that, but in cases where things are evenly balanced, the judge must give paramount consideration to the safety of the community, and I think that that is appropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThere is common ground on this bill\u2014and I think every party agrees on it\u2014which is that important changes are made to ensure the more appropriate care of people with an intellectual disability who appear before the criminal courts. Those people are excluded from the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act unless they also have a mental disorder. Therefore, there are limited options currently available to the courts when deciding how they should be dealt with. This bill and its companion measure, the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, which is about to come before the House, introduce a new process in disposition options for people with an intellectual disability who are either found unfit to stand trial, not guilty by reason of insanity, or are convicted of an offence. As a consequence, people with an intellectual disability who appear before the courts will be dealt with in a more appropriate way than is the case under the current legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EOne such important change is that under the bill\u2019s new procedures, a person cannot be found unfit to stand trial unless the court is first satisfied that there is sufficient evidence of that person\u2019s physical responsibility for the offence with which they are charged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E This addresses the risk under the current law that a person can be found unfit to stand trial and placed into secure care, even though that person has not committed the alleged offence. The bill also provides that a trial is not always required to find a defendant not guilty by way of insanity. A judge can accept such a verdict if the prosecution and defence agree and the judge is satisfied on the basis of expert evidence of the defendant\u2019s insanity at the time the offence occurred. This new procedure is a vast improvement on the status quo, because it has the potential to prevent the stress that can be caused to defendants and victims by having to go to a full trial, even when the appropriate ultimate verdict is not in question. It will also prevent unnecessary appeals in cases where a perverse jury verdict is returned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill also allows the court to order that a convicted offender receive treatment or care in a hospital or secure facility while also being subject to a prison sentence. If the need for treatment or care ceases, the offender will be transferred to prison to complete the remaining period of the sentence. By making this new option available to the court, we will ensure that those who appear before the courts and are in need of treatment or care do receive it in a timely fashion. Supplementary Order Paper 161, as I said before, also addresses the anomaly relating to the remand of people found unfit to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of insanity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill allows access to assessment reports for providers who subsequently have offenders transferred into their care from the facilities to which they were first sent under an order from the court. There would be significant risks if subsequent providers did not have access to assessment reports. In particular, those providers could be forced to make assessments about offenders on the basis of incomplete information. The current ad hoc nature of arrangements for access to those reports is unsatisfactory and needed to be addressed, and it has been addressed by this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EIn summary, the bill represents a significant step forward in the treatment and care of the mentally impaired in the criminal justice system. As well as increasing the options open to the court, significant new safeguards are introduced to ensure that those subject to the bill\u2019s provisions are dealt with fairly and justly. I believe the bill\u2019s provisions strike an appropriate balance between the rights of the mentally impaired and intellectually disabled and the legitimate concern for safe and appropriate secure care options to be available for those people with a mental impairment who commit offences. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022333da739813b460483ca3c81238b4492\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022333da739813b460483ca3c81238b4492\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Criminal\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5733433c434189a148d00cdc9efbbb\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: The Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Person) Bill. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb6d462264f5438086ab6150776fc8a6\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired) Persons Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9965d91791e4e15ae721429747b146f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9965d91791e4e15ae721429747b146f\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I think this absolutely demonstrates why things like this should not be rushed. Even the Speaker has to go and find the new wording of this bill, which will become a separate Act of Parliament. The way this has happened with this Supplementary Order Paper being introduced is really unfortunate. We do not accept the Minister\u2019s explanation. We do not accept it, at all. Previously the Health Committee had worked together on the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7)\u2014a bill that we agreed on and supported. However, because the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill did not have a chance to be perused by the select committee, we cannot support it. Even members of the House have not had a chance to look at it in any detail. We cannot support it, so we will vote against it\u2014and that is unfortunate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Minister, Mr Goff, said that with regard to the provisions he has added, there is no risk. The bill contains major changes to the way the criminal justice system applies to people who have an intellectual disability or mental illness. How can Mr Goff say there is no risk, when he has changed the requirements? He has removed the current requirement: \u201CPersons found unfit to stand trial, or who are acquitted on account of insanity, must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with.\u201D Just imagine the scenario we see every day: somebody is found not guilty on the grounds of insanity or intellectual disability, and there are no beds. What happens when there are no beds? What will the judge do then? Maybe that person will be sent back to his or her family. The family can look after the person. Is that not what happens every day of the week in the mental health services? The family can look after the person\u2014provide the care without support. Bail would be granted, and the family will have to look after the person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe know that judges work very hard in this country and do their very best, but not all judges have very clear knowledge about mental illness or intellectual disability. They are not trained for that. There are cases like Paul Ellis, on whom a report was released yesterday. Paul Ellis went into a mental institution and two doctors said he needed to be assessed. There must have been sufficient evidence for that. He came up before a judge within a day, because there happened to be a gap, and he was told his rights. What did the judge do? He released him. He released him, because people with a mental illness can appear very sane at times. They can hide their paranoia and the distress that is going on in their minds. He was released, and his father paid the price for that and died. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EMr Goff has come to this House with this Supplementary Order Paper that allows people who have been found not guilty on the grounds of insanity or intellectual disability to be discharged on bail to the community, rather than be remanded to a hospital or secure facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with. No one says that once an appropriate care package is put in place, the ability may not be there to rehabilitate people back into the community. We are not saying that; we are saying that the Minister cannot stand up and say there is no risk. He cannot make those sorts of substantial changes without anybody in the sector having had a chance to look at them. Unfortunately, on those grounds, we are not able to support the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen we were going through the select committee process, an attempt was made to slip in a proposal to amend suspended sentences of imprisonment. We state in our report: \u201COccasionally, Government departments will propose substantive and significant changes to bills after select committees have finished hearing submissions. We disapprove of that practice.\u201D Everyone on the committee agreed with that response with regard to trying to slip in something after the select committee process. And what do we have here? We have a Supplementary Order Paper that is slipped in, in urgency, at the last minute. Not only has the select committee not had a chance to scrutinise it, nobody working in the actual field has had a chance to scrutinise it. It may be that there may be agreement on it, but who knows? Nobody has had that chance of perusal. We find that very disappointing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe stated in our report on the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7): \u201CCommittees are not simply vehicles for Government amendments to legislation: they are committees of Parliament with a duty to scrutinise legislation and provide for public input so that New Zealand is provided with the best legislation possible, reflecting a wide range of interests.\u201D That is a principle I uphold. I think that the way the select committee process works is excellent. It allows all New Zealanders to have a say, and the process with this bill is simply and utterly bypassing it. The bill that was before the select committee was a very good bill, because we all worked together to try to improve the situation of the assessment, treatment, and care of people who have a mental illness or intellectual disability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E We extended the number of days somebody could be remanded to a hospital or care facility from 7 to 30, because that was determined to be the most suitable way of dealing with cases. Inquiries need to be made. I have been promoting a member\u2019s bill to make amendments to the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act, because families need to be involved. Sometimes, with people who have intellectual disabilities, it takes time to find their families and to try to put together knowledge about what has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EA lot of the changes made by the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill and this Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill were driven by particular cases, including the Barry Ryder case. Mr Ryder had been in a mental institution, but, when the law was changed so that those with an intellectual disability no longer remained under mental health care, he was released. The bills were also driven by the case of a young man called Mr Stephens, whose family had struggled and struggled to care for him. He also had been in mental health care but had a mental disability. So a differentiation needed to be made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EOne of the very first jobs I had when I left school was to work at Porirua Hospital. At that time there were a lot of people with intellectual disabilities who were cared for in mental institutions, which were inappropriate places for them. They needed specialised care. The law was changed in 1992, which made clear the difference between mental illness and intellectual disability. But then there were gaps in the system, which is why this bill and the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill were needed. It is unfortunate that this legislation, which was introduced in 1999, has taken so long, until 2003, before we get to debate it in its final form. It has been sitting on the Order Paper for 3 years, and I thought it would never see the light of day. I am very pleased it is here today, because it was a National Party bill to begin with. It was a National Party initiative, and in 1999 we allocated $18 million to develop services for people with an intellectual disability who need to be kept in a secure facility, who need 24-hour supervision, and who need to be kept under that sort of care, either because their behaviour has deteriorated or because they are unaware when they strike out at somebody or behave in a way that is socially inappropriate to the rest of society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EMost people with an intellectual disability are living good lives within our society these days, and that is great. I am very pleased that that has occurred. But there are those\u2014and it is a very small group\u2014who do need specialised care. It is good that the $18 million has been used over the last 4 years to develop those services. We would have supported the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7). However, it is unfortunate that, because of our lack of time to scrutinise it, we cannot support the Criminal Proceedings (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill. We will have to vote against it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022 data-id=\u0022a41e4bad0e4e452c8ac77a82581c5266\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a41e4bad0e4e452c8ac77a82581c5266\u0022\u003EMARK PECK (Labour\u2014Invercargill):\u003C/span\u003E Apart from the politics, I quite enjoyed listening to that member\u2019s speech. This is an issue on which many people in this House may have some strong views. Members will be aware of a case I raised when I was a very new MP, relating to the treatment of a Mr Gellatly in Invercargill. I think that that particular matter got mental health to the top of the political agenda. Mental health is not a respecter of political parties; at the end of the day it is a public policy issue that we have to get our heads around\u2014and this bill is a good attempt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EI would have thought that the Leader of the Opposition, a former Minister of Health, would take a call on this issue. It is one that was of concern to him as a Minister, and I know that as Minister he took a very strong stand on protecting people in the health industry who were working in the mental health area. But he is not taking a call, and others are flabbergasted to find out that, at a time when his caucus is falling to pieces, rather than take a call on this bill he is in Invercargill speaking to 40 people about a school review there. The Minister of Education had 700 at his meeting. The Leader of the Opposition dallies while Rome burns and does not come to the Chamber to speak about the bill. I think that says volumes about the commitment of the National Party to mental health issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208646cefbde348bab1fb256c038413c2\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What about his deputy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3426883eed544c399edbb83668c90de\u0022\u003EMARK PECK\u003C/span\u003E: Indeed, his deputy! His deputy had quite a lot to do with this area of policy, as well. He has not said a word about it, either. But for the Leader of the Opposition to ignore this bill is outrageous. There are better things he could have been doing with his time rather than spending it in Invercargill talking to 40 people. He could have been here talking to the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003EThis is a good bill, and I am delighted the House is passing it. It is a step in the right direction in providing good care for those with mental disabilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff5ea5e70d4471395cac59cd7d32da3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff5ea5e70d4471395cac59cd7d32da3\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is quite remarkable how the Labour Party tries to shoot itself in the foot. If it is going to talk about former Ministers of Health not speaking to this bill, where is the Prime Minister? She is a former Minister of Health, so why is she not speaking to this bill? Her legacy as a Minister of Health was the Bottrill case. The botched-up Bottrill case was her legacy to the health system. It took the Privy Council to sort that one out. There was a hepatitis problem, and it took the subsequent Government to sort that one out. The former Minister of Health in the Labour Party, the Rt Hon Helen Clark, was one of the worst Ministers of Health we have ever seen. It is not surprising that she is not here to speak on this bill. \t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EMind you, it would be the greatest surprise if she were here, because we rarely see her in this House after 4 o\u2019clock on any particular day. I mean 4 p.m., not 4 a.m. when some of us are present. The Labour Party must be in absolute disarray for the Labour member from Invercargill to be talking about former Ministers of Health. That has given me a grand opportunity to attack his leader as a failed Minister of Health. He would have been better off keeping his mouth shut on that issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EAs far as this bill is concerned, we have had a bill thrust upon us that has placed you in a situation of some embarrassment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225821f76eb07d4a01b2bdd744526a1aad\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not to be brought into this debate, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221817e077c7964ddc9cf6856cd6c00e94\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis bill is called the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill, and we did not know it was to be called that until Tuesday. For over 4 years it was the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), and it was in a totally different form from the one before us in the House today. We have this incredible situation developing now in this Parliament, where the Labour Party decides that it will take urgency on a number of issues, and then, during the course of urgency, tries to slip in enormous Supplementary Order Papers, some of which are bigger than their original bills and change their form quite dramatically. There was a time, I seem to recall, when the Government of the day was very cautious about the introduction of a Supplementary Order Paper, and a good deal of time would be spent in caucus discussing whether it was possible, and whether it was an abuse of parliamentary procedure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThis minority Labour Government has no concern for Supplementary Order Papers. Just in the last day\u2014and we are still in Tuesday, 21 October\u2014we have had substantial Supplementary Order Papers in respect of the Retirement Villages Bill, the Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Amendment Bill, and now this Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7). It is an arrogant abuse of Parliament by this minority Labour Government, and those of us who have seen its arrogant abuse of the constitutional process, and the way it rammed the Supreme Court Bill through this House, are no longer surprised by anything it does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Ellis inquiry report came out yesterday, and it was a classic example of why someone should have been kept in remand and not let out into society. Here we have a bill that shows absolutely no regard for the Ellis inquiry and any report on it. That report might as well be burnt now, because this minority Labour Government says it is not interested in its outcome. Regardless of the facts of that case, the Government will compound the issue by legislating to ensure that the problems contained in the Ellis report continue to a much greater extent\u2014because that is what this bill does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EUnited Future members sit there and support a bill that will allow mentally deranged, insane people out into the community on bail. Do members know what will happen when someone gets killed as a result of this bill? A United Future member will ask the Minister of Justice why it happened, and the Minister of Justice will say that it was the judge\u2019s fault. The judiciary will be blamed, and there will be this struggle between United Future and the Minister of Justice\u2014as if United Future were being tough on law and order\u2014and the Minister of Justice will come back and say: \u201COh no, no. It\u2019s the judge\u2019s fault.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E Why would the judge be given the option to do it? I say to United Future that Parliament should make that decision\u2014the buck stops with us. United Future should not have a little ping-pong game with the Minister of Justice, pretending that they are hard and tough on law and order, asking why that is happening and what the Government will do about it, and having Mr Goff say that it was all the judiciary\u2019s fault. This bill should not be supported. People who are insane, and who have committed criminal acts, should not be allowed out into the community while arrangements are being made for their care. That is what this bill does, and that is what United Future supports. Of course, the Greens will support it. The Greens opposed bodily samples being taken from people. The Greens will oppose anything that is tough on law and order. As far as the Greens are concerned, this bill makes it easy for people to be out in the community, regardless of whether they are insane and have committed criminal acts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThe Minister raised a ridiculous argument relating to the Human Rights Act. In the original bill, if people had committed criminal offences and their positions were being considered, they were not remanded on bail but in custody. They had to be under care and supervision. The Human Rights Commission made a submission on the bill. The select committee came back and insisted that there be a mandatory provision in respect of care and custody. That matter has been considered. The Minister has obviously not read the report from the Health Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOf the members of the Health Committee who supported that view, some are still in Parliament\u2014not Judy Keall, of whom the Government is taking no notice, nor Phillida Bunkle, but people like Steve Chadwick, the Labour member for Rotorua. What has she to say about it? She sat on the Health Committee that came up with the unanimous view that when people have committed criminal acts and are insane, they should be kept in mandatory custody. Now she is voting against that. She has been told to change her mind, do what she is told, and go the way that the Minister wants to go\u2014regardless of the facts, and regardless of the present Ellis inquiry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison stood up and opposed the legislation. I commend him and Dr Scott for the way they have conducted this matter. It is quite in contrast to some of the ways that National Party spokespeople have conducted other matters in the House during this urgency. They have done an excellent job on this bill. Sue Kedgley supported mandatory custody provisions while she was on the select committee. She will change her mind today for the Greens and go with the Labour Party, because that is what suits the Greens, regardless of the care and welfare of the people of New Zealand. Mita Ririnui will always go the way the Labour Party wants to go. He was on that select committee, and one would have thought he would know better, but no, whatever the Labour Party tells Mita Ririnui to do, he will do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EOne of the things the Minister mentioned during his speech was that new procedures were involved. If new procedures are involved for the justice system, I would have expected the courtesy of a select committee hearing to allow the New Zealand Law Society to make submissions on the new criminal procedures in court. I would have thought that the Criminal Bar Association should be invited to make submissions as to whether those new procedures were correct. They are the experts on the issue. Instead, the Minister wants to rely on some departmental official\u2014who has never appeared in court in his or her life\u2014in preference to the New Zealand Law Society and the Criminal Bar Association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EI predict that before very long we will have the same problem that we have had time and time again in the House with bills being rushed through. The Minister will say he wants to amend a bill that we have just rushed through, and could we support the matter in a Statutes Amendment Bill. That is going on now with matters from before the last session. We will get a request, as we do time and time again, from the Hon Rick Barker, for amendments to a Statutes Amendment Bill. I say to the Labour Party that if amendments to the Statutes Amendment Bill arise out of this rushed legislation, I will advise my caucus not to support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is getting sick and tired of rushed legislation and enormous Supplementary Order Papers, and then having the Labour Party come crawling up and saying that it had made a mistake, asking if we could support something in the Statutes Amendment Bill, rushing it through the House because X, Y, and Z said so, and saying that if we did not do so, then it was our fault\u2014not Labour\u2019s fault\u2014for rushing legislation through. We have had this situation time and time again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003EThere are probably only a couple of other minor matters on the Order Paper. New Zealand First hopes that urgency can be finished before 1 o\u2019clock. We are looking forward to question time this afternoon. That is the real issue before the House. We hope that the old parties\u2014the Labour Party and the National Party\u2014do not continue urgency beyond 1 o\u2019clock to prevent New Zealand First from once again showing up the minority Labour Government for the useless Government it is\u2014as set out in this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002277c37ab0ae4545df9d54c86ed95d18d4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277c37ab0ae4545df9d54c86ed95d18d4\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is with a certain amount of sadness that I rise to speak to the third reading of the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill. ACT New Zealand will not support the bill, despite the fact that we came to the House last night, when the bill had its turn, wanting to support it because of the good changes and provisions relating to both the mentally ill and the intellectually disabled. In the original bill there were very good provisions for much better care of intellectually disabled people, in particular. One thing that I think would have been a significant step forward was that compulsory treatment was to run concurrently with prison sentences. The commentary on the bill states: \u201CThe prison sentence will run while the person is in hospital or in secure care. If the need for treatment or care ceases, the person will be transferred to a prison to complete any remaining period of the prison sentence.\u201D This was something that was missing previously. There have been cases where patients have been treated and although they would have gone to prison for some time, have been released into the community, to the satisfaction of nobody. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThat was just one example of the promise showed by the bill. The problem now is that the Supplementary Order Paper that was dumped in the House on 21 October\u2014the day before the bill was to be debated\u2014allows no scrutiny at all. The Minister states that there is no risk involved with the changes and that they are innocuous changes, and possibly they are, but we have not had time in the debating chamber to scrutinise them thoroughly. Certainly, the professionals who should be involved\u2014medical professionals, perhaps the legal profession, and particularly the public and lobby groups\u2014and who would have valid concerns and would want to come and be heard before the select committee on those provisions, have not had that opportunity made available, and we cannot accept that. Because of the good nature and promise of the bill, as I have just described, it is with sadness that we will not be able to support the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill, because of the lack of scrutiny. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIf we look at the Supplementary Order Paper for a moment, we see that the second bullet point on the explanatory note on the back page\u2014page 44 of this very long and wordy Supplementary Order Paper\u2014states that the Supplementary Order Paper makes a number of technical and drafting changes, then leaves it at that. What exactly are these technical and drafting changes? I have had a bit of a flick through. I do not have a legal background, and I found it difficult to find my way through the Supplementary Order Paper, but I cannot see what was wrong in the first place to make this necessary. What was wrong with the bill, as it was written up, that required a Supplementary Order Paper of such length to be put forward? We were told it was because of procedural problems, but why, when this bill has been before Parliament since 1999\u2014Wyatt Creech saw gaps in the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act and quite rightly drew up the bill to rectify those gaps and the problems that existed\u2014has it taken 4 years for these procedural problems to be drawn to the attention of the House? If they truly were procedural problems, then what is wrong with having right and proper scrutiny before the select committee? I think this shows that the Minister of Justice and the whole Labour Government have no respect at all for parliamentary process. It is an authoritarian, \u201Cwe know best\u201D Government. Its motto is: \u201CDon\u2019t worry, we\u2019ll tell you how to live your lives.\u201D, and we are seeing it more and more often. In this spell of urgency we have seen it in bill after bill, with huge Supplementary Order Papers dropped in at the very last minute, with no regard at all and no respect for parliamentary process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMr Goff could have made it very simple for himself. In the Supplementary Order Paper he could have outlined what has not changed in the bill. By telling us what had not changed, it would have been much easier for anybody reading the Supplementary Order Paper to quickly scrutinise exactly what the changes were. He would have shown some respect for the people who had gone through the submission process\u2014the people who had very valid concerns in the first place He would have been one of the first to admit that there were problems, and that they needed to be rectified. He could have shown his respect for submitters. He could also have shown some respect for the parliamentary process and for his parliamentary colleagues. But we are left now asking ourselves what the real reason is for such a lengthy and wordy Supplementary Order Paper. The only conclusion we can come to\u2014and in fact the conclusion we have come to on this side of the House\u2014is that there probably are substantive changes in this Supplementary Order Paper. But they are substantial changes that nobody is going to get to scrutinise properly. Dail Jones, who spoke just before me, said that this has been seen before. Like his party, the next time a Statutes Amendment Bill comes forward, ACT New Zealand is not going to try to help the Labour Government smooth over the silly changes that have been made, out of undue haste. Phil Goff has a bit of a track record in this respect. I would like to draw the House\u2019s attention to the Victims\u2019 Rights Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b67603ba88d46479add2d479239a3bc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member will talk about this bill, please, in the third reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc35860b03854b3185c5625272624219\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Phil Goff does have a track record, and he is showing yet again that he has no respect for the parliamentary process. He is showing an arrogant abuse of the parliamentary system. It is an arrogance that has only really been allowed to develop because of those people who support this minority Government, and I refer here, of course, to the Green Party, but most particularly to United Future, which campaigned strongly on the fact that it would hold Governments to account, and that things should be transparent. But where is the transparency now? The Labour Government asks for United Future\u2019s support, and it just rolls over and says: \u201CYes, here it is.\u201D There is no transparency at all. We had the opportunity. This side of the House called for the Supplementary Order Paper to be taken back to the Health Committee, to be scrutinised properly. But United Future does not care about transparency; neither does this Government. They are happy just to let things come forward. The untrustworthiness of the Minister, and also the untrustworthiness of the people who prop up this Government, becomes very visible when we look at this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI come back to the fact that this is a very sad day, because we on this side of the House are not able to support this bill. We cannot. We would like to have supported the bill, as it stood initially. The Supplementary Order Paper casts nothing but questions and aspersions on the nature of the changes being made to this bill\u2014changes that are of a very technical nature and are not going to be scrutinised. This Government does not want scrutiny. It wants us all to do what it says is best for the citizens of this country. ACT New Zealand is not going to buy into this. We say that enough is enough. Despite the fact that we would like to have supported this bill, we will not be doing so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00224bed4b9dd9db466ab0073d320f2dfbc5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bed4b9dd9db466ab0073d320f2dfbc5\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise once again on behalf of United Future to support this bill and endorse its third reading. Both this bill and the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill have been around for some time, which has meant that United Future has not had the kind of involvement with this legislation that it would have had, had the legislation been actively considered by the current Parliament. It seems that legislation that languishes in this way typically tends to be the kind of legislation that is non-controversial in nature, and at the same time has no particular urgency surrounding its enactment. Alternatively, it waits on the Order Paper because the Government is continuing to prepare significant amendments. In this case, I am sure that the bill will prove to be non-contentious in terms of the level of support that it will attract from the parties across Parliament. We have Supplementary Order Paper 161 in the name of the Minister, which includes a significant number of amendments to the bill as reported back from the Health Committee. But I would argue that because this bill is far from contentious, it has not been given the urgency it deserves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThis bill justifies a much higher position on any Government\u2019s agenda than it has had, because it seeks to alter the rather blunt and monolithic way that the criminal justice system deals with those who are mentally disabled. In the case of mental illness, one concept of care does not suit all. Those afflicted with conditions loosely described as mental illness vary greatly, as does their degree of disablement. Since the introduction of the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act in 1992, controversy has arisen because that legislation states that no person may be placed under compulsory psychiatric care, by reason of intellectual disability. As a consequence, some people may have been imprisoned unnecessarily and others may have been inappropriately released from all legal control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe main aim of the mental health reforms was to establish a clear distinction between the services for the intellectually disabled and those for the mentally ill. Advocacy groups considered that this distinction in services would not become properly established as long as compulsory care for both groups was covered by the same legislation, as it tended to direct both groups into the same facilities. So the intellectually disabled were excluded from that Act, leaving it with a more clearly defined focus on compulsory treatment for mental illness. However, the difficulty that emerged was that insufficient attention was paid to the small number of intellectually disabled people who still required compulsory care, and there was inadequate legal provision for the even smaller number charged with criminal offences. So this bill permits intellectually disabled people who are charged with offences to be readily removed from the criminal trial process and placed into the compulsory care regime, thus providing the option of care in a secure facility. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EMy concern is about how many people have suffered in the meantime, while waiting for this kind of legislation to appear. National introduced these twin bills in 1999, to some degree in response to concerns that Barry Allan Ryder, who has a 17-year history of sexual offending, would be released back into the community. These bills would have provided for those kinds of dangerous individuals to be held in a secure facility within the mental health system, once they had served their prison sentence. Unfortunately, in Ryder\u2019s case, he has consistently been allowed to reoffend against young boys, in a copycat manner to his earlier crimes, after being released twice: in 1994, and again last year. Authorities were warned on both occasions that he posed a serious risk of reoffending. They were warned the first time by the whistle-blowing Lake Alice psychiatric nurse, Neil Pugmire. Even if this legislation had been in place, I am not sure whether it could have been applied retrospectively to Ryder. I know that Mr Ryall and Mr Goff have traded insults over the years about exactly who was responsible, when they were alternately the former Minister and present Minister of Justice. But I think the most important point is the principle that this kind of legislation should have been a priority, to protect citizenry against those types of offenders and, in a few specific cases, to protect those who are truly unable to comprehend their actions from themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002223b6d054d1984e1b9545b2f8bf38bd3a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002223b6d054d1984e1b9545b2f8bf38bd3a\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on this very important Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), which is now known, pretty belatedly, as the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Act of 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd38e3b86f2944899172ad551a7e422c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022077b68555ed54e37bcb3bebce4cb6246\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Bill\u2014quite right, at this stage of events. But it is shortly to become an Act\u2014and I believe, in many respects, quite inappropriately. This legislation undoubtedly deals with the hugely important area of the intellectually disabled and the mentally impaired. As I said earlier in the Committee stage, the differentiation, the diagnosis of those areas and the definition of them, is hugely important. It is problematic, and it has exercised a lot of thought, over a lot of time, to try to get legislation that meets the requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn fact, if one goes back historically, one finds it is interesting to hear what New Plymouth Crown solicitor Tim Brewer said, back in 1997. He regarded this as one of the changes to the then law that he was determined to promote, after the brutal murder of 12-year-old boy Dane Gibson by his parents at their Inglewood home in 1994. During the trial, both the defence and the prosecution agreed with the psychiatrist that the couple were both insane at the time. Way back then, Mr Brewer said: \u201CI very much welcome that finally something has been done that will save witnesses and juries the unnecessary anguish of having to consider in detail awful events about which there is no contest on the issue of insanity.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThis law change was first introduced in 1999, under the Hon Wyatt Creech. It is of great import regarding this bill that the Health Committee, which dealt with it, did work in a multiparty fashion. There was collaboration and goodwill, and I believe that the time of the genesis of the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) certainly demonstrated members\u2019 willingness to respond through the parliamentary process to a situation that was problematical, difficult, and sensitive, and they did that well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut is very interesting to note in the commentary on the bill the point made by, I think in particular, Judy Keall, who is known to have a unique way of articulating herself. The commentary states:  \u201COccasionally, Government departments will propose substantive and significant changes to bills after select committees have finished hearing submissions. We disapprove of that practice.\u201D Yet here we are, 3 to 4 years later, with the Minister of Justice, Phil Goff, introducing a substantial Supplementary Order Paper, No. 161, under urgency, without any consultation with, or any information having been given to, the other parties that had previously collaborated so well on this very important issue. When we asked the Hon Phil Goff to explain why he did that, he was absolutely unable to do so. This bill demonstrates quite clearly an abuse of the parliamentary process by the Minister of Justice and by this Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to refer to one of the other speeches on this bill made back in 1999 by the Hon Phil Goff, when he said\u2014and he had been talking about the very concerning David Stephens case that appeared in the Hamilton District Court\u2014\u201CWhat was the judge to do? Would he put the person in jail? Was he to put the person in a facility designed for the mentally disordered? He did the latter, but he said that that was quite inappropriate and that Mr Stephens ought not to have been in that facility.\u201D He continued\u2014this is what the Minister of Justice, Phil Goff, said in 1999\u2014\u201CAgain, I ask the Government, having put this legislation before the House, having put a companion measure before the House, whether the facilities are there so that those who are intellectually impaired or mentally impaired can be placed somewhere where they are safe personally, where the community is safe from actions they might take, but which is not a prison designed to punish, or a mental hospital designed to cure an illness. That is the key question that arises out of this legislation.\u201D We have had 4 years of this Labour Government\u2014which pointed out that the key question arising in respect of this legislation is the provision of mental health facilities\u2014yet we have a mental health crisis in this country because of that Government\u2019s absolute negligence in this area of mental health. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EJust a few minutes ago we heard Mr Mark Peck, the member for Invercargill, wittering away inanely about why the various spokespersons from National have not taken part in this debate. He must be reminded that a former Minister of Health, the Prime Minister, has had nothing to say about this legislation. That shows how much she cares about mental health. She is the person who, when in Opposition, was very concerned about mental health facilities. Yet we have a mental health crisis in New Zealand right now. The Minister of Health has not partaken in this debate. That shows how much she is concerned about mental health\u2014and we have a mental health crisis right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb6a16a67e8c40e0a105c96538b56309\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s in New York.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022305ed193ff5c41b18de3b726a8f9e546\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Well, that is the problem. Four years ago when National was in Government the Labour Opposition was saying that there was a problem with mental health. Yet every day we hear huge concerns being expressed about the lack of mental health provisions in this country, and that falls fairly and squarely, after 4 years, on this dilatory Labour Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to refer to the explanatory note of the Supplementary Order Paper, which is extremely out of order in having been\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224386d2fc144743db8b41b7ed3c751ea7\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s gone very quiet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd98bb0f35ed484294f90341c5c244fa\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Once again we are hearing some very inane iterations from the Labour Government benches on this hugely important bill\u2014particularly where we have an explanatory note that is so misleading. One of the points of that Supplementary Order Paper, which has been put in under urgency, is that it is to:  \u201Cremove the current requirement that persons found unfit to stand trial or who are acquitted on account of insanity must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with. Instead of the mandatory remand provision, the Supplementary Order paper gives the courts the option of remanding such persons on bail.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe have heard time and time again about the injudiciousness of such a move in the present climate in New Zealand. We have had desperately tragic cases occurring, yet once again this Labour Government is prepared to put through a Supplementary Order Paper in a great deal of hurry, in circumstances where the Opposition had been totally prepared to collaborate with it. Instead, the Government has put something in that Supplementary Order Paper that will probably put the lives of New Zealanders at risk in the future. It has made the point that the paramount consideration must be given to the public, and has failed to point out that it is also hugely important that enormous account is taken of the individual concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4f781c01d65494ca1cf02c98b86119c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4f781c01d65494ca1cf02c98b86119c\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not want to interrupt my colleague\u2019s speech, but during the course of his delivery I overhead the junior Government whip, Jill Pettis, make a claim that one of my colleagues was on someone\u2019s payroll, which is quite unparliamentary and not acceptable. I take exception to that, and she should be asked to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002226a207592c044f8da9db06cb866b365b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, she will do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273a0f8db0f154217b32a3e25186c2154\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022d86c5d238dd744e7a7395d2419bffe08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d86c5d238dd744e7a7395d2419bffe08\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is my pleasure to take a brief call on this bill. As my colleague Sue Bradford said last evening, this bill has been around for a long time, and it is long overdue. We look forward to its implementation, and we take pleasure in supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00229b047ca13d10474bbfa956e66c3e60df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229b047ca13d10474bbfa956e66c3e60df\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Well, good morning, good morning, good morning to listeners out there in radio land. I just want to tell them that the speaker who spoke immediately before the member who has just resumed his seat was \u201CPaul from down south\u201D. \u201CPaul from down south\u201D is actually Paul Hutchison, who comes from somewhere around Waikato. He is so highly profiled in the National Party that his own leader, at a recent function in Remuera, could not remember his name and referred to him as \u201CPaul from down south\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022910d0b008f7c442580cfd187a0df263c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: We do not do that in the House. We refer to members by their name in the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbb0cbe3973248039fbdc89147d9389e\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: I asked Mr Hutchison, by way of\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220abe9f447e7448d79ea9ed29d1fc59bb\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Hutchison.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227085c304bfc843fbbdc852997e70a25a\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: \u2014Dr Paul Hutchison. I asked him a question, by way of an interjection\u2014and I did not think I was asking anything untoward, at all\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d43c7e9726341f8a902fabd3c9b9c5f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have ruled on that matter. The member will now come to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239eeec99a9d84dd98eb1c853651faa84\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: I do want to say that this a very good bill, and for all the bleating, whingeing, and whining that has been coming from the Opposition side of the House about how long it has taken for this bill to be progressed through Parliament, those members have done nothing but delay it. This is a good bill, and the best thing that we can do is to get it passed. I recommend we do that as rapidly as possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u00222600bce34ead4cee82c13931ef59ad95\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222600bce34ead4cee82c13931ef59ad95\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E I do not think I need to use the word that is banned in this Parliament. I think that even the public would know what a load of untruth that statement was. How did the Opposition delay this legislation? This necessary and important legislation was introduced into the House in 1999 by the very capable Minister of Health, under the very responsible National Government in 1999. It was examined by a very diligent, very good Health Committee that had on it esteemed colleagues like Dr Lynda Scott, Dr Paul Hutchison, Roger Sowry, and others. Those members are very capable. They examined the legislation, improved it, and made it more workable. But when was it reported back to the House? It was reported back in 2001. It sat on the Order Paper for 2\u00BD years, but Ms Jill Pettis says the Opposition delayed the passage of the legislation. The Supplementary Order Paper was introduced in this House last night, at 11 p.m. I think the public would be very concerned that a junior whip in a minority Labour Government had not bothered to read the legislation and could not say a thing about it. She could not tell us what was in the 44-page Supplementary Order Paper. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe delay in the passage of this legislation\u2014legislation that is very necessary\u2014was entirely the fault of the minority Labour Government. Last night we were told briefly by the Minister, the Hon Phil Goff\u2014when trying to explain to us the reason for the late introduction of a 44-page Supplementary Order Paper, which is about the same size as the original bill\u2014that \u201Cthings have changed\u201D. The legislation that this bill is part of no longer exists; therefore, the legislation had to be amended to become a stand-alone bill. Of course, none of us was surprised. Only the minority Labour Government would have thought the world stood still for 2\u00BD years while the legislation languished on the Order Paper. But things have moved on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe senior Government whip is chipping away. I wonder what message his constituents sent him to Wellington to deliver, because he never seeks the call, never makes any constructive comments, and just chips away. He has nothing to show for his representation. Last night we were told that, apart from this Supplementary Order Paper being necessary to re-format the legislation to become a stand-alone bill, there was substantial change. In the original legislation there was a requirement that when persons are found unfit to stand trial, or are acquitted on account of insanity, they must be remanded to a hospital or facility while inquiries are made to determine how they should be dealt with. We were told by the Hon Phil Goff that changes have to be made to the legislation\u2014that it cannot be made compulsory\u2014otherwise it would breach the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act in respect of human rights. We knew that the Health Committee had examined the original bill that had this compulsory requirement. It was cleared by the Human Rights Commission, and I understand that the legislation also passed the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EHow can the Minister come to this House in the third reading, and say\u2014after the Health Committee had received and heard submissions from the Human Rights Commission and the bill had satisfied the requirements of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act\u2014that those requirements, in effect, need to be changed; otherwise, they would be in breach of various pieces of legislation? It is simply not credible to accuse the select committee of not doing a proper job; nor is it credible for the Minister, in the House, to accuse the Human Rights Commission and other officials who cleared those provisions contained in the original bill. It remains a mystery to the House why the Minister brings about that change in the eleventh hour without disclosing to us the real reason behind it. If the Minister does not explain in full to us about the changes, I am afraid further grievances will be caused mentally impaired individuals, who, as we have heard recently and throughout the last 4 years, have been brought before the court for conduct that, at that stage, they cannot be held responsible for. There was public outrage. The public always blames the individual, because they find it frustrating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis change puts the hard decision back to the court, instead of a clear message being sent by this Parliament to say that, while inquiries are being made, those individuals should be remanded in a secure place to protect themselves from themselves and to protect others from them. The Minister, once again, is taking the easy option. He has put the difficult task and decision on to the court. I find it extremely disappointing that this necessary piece of legislation, which was introduced to the House 4 years ago and examined by the Health Committee with diligence and responsibility, has came back to the House after sitting on the Order Paper for 2\u00BD years, and then has had major changes introduced to it without the reasons for them being properly explained to the House. When in future a similar tragedy happens, I hope the Minister will remember what he has done. I think the situation is very unsatisfactory on two grounds: abusing the parliamentary process, and bringing in substantial changes without Parliament being briefed in full. So it is with extreme disappointment that I have taken part in this third reading of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00228655e31cf8294cc2b65b38133a6b750b\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill be now read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b34cff6ccb94faebc8f275b42b21b26\u0022\u003EIntellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9439549eb0b47cd8086ac05beb500a8\u0022\u003EConsideration of Report of Health Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u002270b1caaec1fe4e8b9d02095d4bc7f90c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002270b1caaec1fe4e8b9d02095d4bc7f90c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health),\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Minister of Health: I move, That the House take note of the report of the Health Committee on the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill. This bill provides for the assessment and care of people with an intellectual disability who are charged with, or convicted of, an imprisonable offence. It bridges a legislative gap that has existed since 1992. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EPeople with an intellectual disability are included in the definition of mental disorder in the Mental Health Act, which was later linked to the Criminal Justice Act in 1985. However, the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act in 1992 deliberately excluded people with an intellectual disability, unless they also had a mental disorder. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis exclusion created a legislative gap between the two Acts for people with an intellectual disability who offended, resulting in inappropriate placement in prison, in forensic mental health services, or in discharge into the community. As a result of this gap, there are limited options available to the courts for dealing with people with an intellectual disability who are in need of compulsory care. For some, this has resulted in inappropriate placement in prison, in mental health services, or, as I said, in discharge into the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThis bill links with the Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill to enable the criminal court to impose appropriate orders for defendants with an intellectual disability. The purposes of the bill, as reported back, are: firstly, to provide courts with appropriate compulsory care and rehabilitation options for people who have an intellectual disability and who are charged with, or convicted of, an imprisonable offence; secondly, to recognise and safeguard the special rights of people subject to this bill; and, thirdly, to provide for the appropriate use of different levels of care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EIt is estimated that about 50 to 100 people will be affected by this bill. The bill was introduced into the House in 1999, and the main changes that were recommended by the process through the Health Committee were, firstly, to change the name to the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill, as stated. This reflects the focus on rehabilitation as well as compulsory care. Secondly, the committee recommended that the bill apply only to offenders with an intellectual disability, because the bill, as introduced, applied also to non-offenders. Thirdly, the committee changed the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022052fd62752b34d77a1107a02f3d354b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022052fd62752b34d77a1107a02f3d354b2\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on one of the first bills I worked on when I became a member of Parliament in 1999. It was a pleasure to be able to come to Parliament, because then it had no members who were medical doctors. I had the slogan: \u201CPut a doctor in the House.\u201D, and it was good to be able to be part of the Health Committee and work on a bill in an area on which I had quite bit of knowledge and experience in my past life as a nurse and a doctor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIn 1992 changes were made to the Mental Health Act, as we have heard. Those changes meant that people with an intellectual disability were no longer covered by the Mental Health Act. My very first job was working as a nurse-aide at Porirua Hospital. In those days, in the 1970s, psychiatric hospitals were very large institutions that had within them a large number of people with intellectual disabilities. As those hospitals closed down, those with an intellectual disability were placed in the community. It was recognised that there is quite a difference between someone with an illness due to a mental health problem and someone with an intellectual disability. The cause may have been congenital\u2014people may have been born with an intellectual disability. Excluded from this bill are those who acquire brain injury, either by accident or by stroke. The bill does not cover those people. Those types of situations, where there is challenging behaviour, are still not covered. However, the bill did fill both a legislative gap and a service gap in the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe bill was introduced in 1999 by the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech. At that time it had two sections to it; one was for offender groups and the other was for non-offender groups. The aim of the bill was to determine that intellectually disabled persons who had committed a criminal offence and who could not be held responsible for their actions could be placed in permanent care and have a secure environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIt is always interesting that specific cases often drive a need for legislative change, because they demonstrate so clearly where the gaps are. One of those cases was that of David Stephens. His parents were having a very hard time trying to cope with David\u2019s care. David had an intellectual disability. He was a very big lad, and as he grew older his behaviour deteriorated. When he was able to be cared for under the Mental Health Act, he spent time at Tokanui. Mr and Mrs Stephens described this time as being probably the best time, because he was managed. However, when he was released from Tokanui, they could not cope with him and there was nowhere else appropriate for him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Stephens were the very first submitters to the select committee, and they appeared before it in person. They said they supported the intent of the bill that provided protection of a legal status for someone with an intellectual handicap who has offended or who is in danger of offending. We heard from intellectual disability groups from around New Zealand, from the Human Rights Commission, and from civil liberties groups that those who have not offended but who have an intellectual disability are entitled to the same rights as any other person. I had to agree with that. I had to agree that just because a person may have an intellectual disability and behave in a way that is strange to those viewing that person, perhaps in the street, it does not mean that that person is likely to commit an offence. Luckily, in today\u2019s society people with an intellectual disability are living within our communities, and people have a lot more understanding than they used to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EHowever, the select committee decided that it would be only those who had committed an offence who would come under the jurisdiction of this bill. At that time the National Government put in a large bucket of money\u2014to the tune of $20 million\u2014to go with this bill to develop services. I am pleased that although it has taken this Government such a long time to get this bill before us\u2014and we are pleased to have it here today at long last\u2014the fact is that that money has been spent to develop services for people with an intellectual disability who commit an offence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBecause the non-offender group was taken out of this bill, there also needs to be good wrap-around services for people whose behaviour is deteriorating. That can happen for a lot of reasons, but generally it is because of the stresses and changes in a person\u2019s life. I remember a case of an intellectually handicapped young man in my own hometown. His mother had a stroke and his father died. They had cared for this young man, their son, who was in his 40s by the time I got to meet him. When his whole support structure collapsed and the scaffolding in his life fell apart, his behaviour deteriorated markedly and he ended up in the criminal justice system. That was totally inappropriate for someone with an IQ of probably around 70. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI have been reading the Supplementary Order Paper introduced by Ruth Dyson. She has changed the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D, and I am very disappointed about that. The Health Committee spent a lot of time looking at the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. We did not want it to be a rigid IQ of 70 or below, because many other factors can come into it when looking at someone with an intellectual disability. A person may have a slightly higher IQ but have very, very poor social skills. If the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D is tightened up as in the Supplementary Order Paper, then one excludes people from being able to be cared for under this bill, and I have some concerns about that. If members look at the bill, they will see that the first 90 pages have all been struck out. So, through the select committee process, we did make major substantive changes to the way the bill works. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe submission from the Stephens pointed out their distress, and the trauma was relieved when their son was admitted to the Kimberley Centre. But he would assault staff and leave to go off down the road. There was no law by which they could put him in a secure facility and take away his right to be free to walk wherever he chose. David assaulted somebody in the street, and in the end they used, I think, the Protection of Personal and Property and Rights Act to contain him in a secure environment. As I have said, the millions of dollars that were put up by the National Government to back this bill have been used to expand services within the community markedly during the last 4 years while we have waited and waited for this bill to come to this House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe changes we made to the legislation by excluding the non-offender group were supported by the Society for the Intellectually Handicapped. I talked to Barbara Rocco the other day, a former chair of the society, and told her that this bill was in the urgency motion. She could not believe it. She said: \u201CI will hold my breath and just wait, because I have been waiting for so long for this bill to be passed trough Parliament.\u201D So she will be very pleased that we are debating it today. Hopefully, we will see it through its Committee stage and third reading, because the National Party will be supporting it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022 data-id=\u00226673e6c45ded492bbcc8234c5281058c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226673e6c45ded492bbcc8234c5281058c\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to thank the previous speaker for supporting the bill. It is a bill that many of my constituents will be pleased to see passed. I also want to thank Judy Keall, the previous member for Otaki, for the work she did on this legislation as former chair of the Health Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00223110fb9b2ec5448eb091ae5cafa40c6b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223110fb9b2ec5448eb091ae5cafa40c6b\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate on this bill. New Zealand First is supportive of it. The rights of those in our community with an intellectual disability need to be enshrined in law, since current mental health legislation does not apply to them, thus resulting in a limited range of options available for dealing with those in need of compulsory care. The events of recent times involving loss of life call for such legislation. Furthermore, how often have we heard criticism of the judiciary as to the inadequacy or even the inappropriateness, of their order when dealing with matters that come before it? I believe that this bill provides a much clearer indication for the judiciary to deal with those issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EAdmittedly the bill has been substantially rewritten since its original introduction on to the legislative agenda. In the last Parliament the House, and the Health Committee\u2014on which New Zealand First did not have a member\u2014limited its scope to those with an intellectual disability who had been charged with an imprisonable offence and found guilty or unfit to stand trial, or those who had been detained but had completed their sentences. This is to ensure that people who are deemed to be a danger to themselves and/or to others are not locked away because they might offend. The way people with intellectual disabilities are regarded and treated in our society has changed, and deinstitutionalisation and mainstreaming now underline the approach taken, thanks to earlier Labour and National Governments\u2014the decision that we are now seeing the adverse consequences of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis is all fine and well, as long as the resources are there to cope with the demands of this, and the burden of care is not placed on the families or the nebulous community. We must accept that some people in our society are not able to participate in a normal way, because of the dangers they pose to themselves and others. Secure care or constant supervisory care is necessary for those people, and I do not mean locking them up in prison with criminal offenders. This bill is an attempt to ensure the correct balance between proper care for the people who are affected, and the rights and the safety of the community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EThis is where my reservations lie, because all too often it takes a tragedy to occur before it is realised that the skills, training, and particularly the resources that are required to manage the daily care of those people that this bill applies to, are totally inadequate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EI watched with great sadness the Television New Zealand Documentary New Zealand programme last Monday, which told the stories of three families who had lost family members under violent and heart-breaking circumstances because of severe lapses in the care and supervision of mental health patients. I will never forget the words of the man whose wife lost her life at the hands of their schizophrenic son. He said that his son had been released into community care, but it was, in effect, he said, community neglect. That is a sad commentary on the state of this country\u2019s present attitude towards the care of those of our society who are identified as intellectually disabled. He was a young man with a serious mental illness who was left to his own devices. He had severe negative and psychotic feelings towards members of his own family. We know the outcome of that episode. This young man who had been cared for under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act 1992 was allowed to fall through the gaps with disastrous results. Now he and his family must live with the results of that, just as people with intellectual disabilities and their families must live with the reality of their situations. For them the reality is that they will never recover or grow out of their disability. They will always need special care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIt is imperative then that we provide the best care available and ensure that the quality of staff is of the highest calibre, and above all, suitably trained. This means we must fund the best training for the best people who are capable of working effectively with people who have intellectual disabilities. This means realistic remuneration, ensuring a full complement of staff at all times, and providing the best facilities available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003ENotwithstanding the report on progress in 2001-2002 towards implementing the blueprint for mental health services in New Zealand, I would like to know whether the ministry has developed this disability strategy, and if so, how this problem of resources, including staff attraction and retention, is being addressed. I would like to be assured that they are well-resourced, well-staffed, and with well-funded facilities for those people who require the sort of care we are talking about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EA further issue was raised with regard to children, or young people under 17 years old, with an intellectual disability, and who are assessed as being a danger to themselves or others. The record shows that the Family Court Judge Mahoney submitted to the select committee that adequate services and facilities for these young people are not available, and that they are often detained in secure facilities with young offenders. I understand that the select committee has sought assurance from officials in the ministry that strategies are being developed to address this issue. I would like to know whether this assurance has been given; if not, when it will be; and if so, what progress has been made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EIn summary, New Zealand First is happy to support this bill, and wants to make sure that it is properly implemented so that everyone who is affected by it can live with dignity and without fear that inadequate resources and lack of funding will turn this stream of care into a nightmare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022a08f009dcb6a4b4db6fa424c41c58d44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a08f009dcb6a4b4db6fa424c41c58d44\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise as the ACT spokesman on justice to address the second reading of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill. I see that it is now to be called Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill. That change in heading says quite a lot about this bill. The bill started out to try to draw a distinction regarding people who, by reason of intellectual deficiency\u2014low IQ, defined in the bill\u2014were permanently to be in care, and would always need the community to look after them and also to look out for them. This is the bill that explains how people will deal with those who are so subnormal that they will be a threat to others and have committed crime. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EAs I understand it, although no ACT member at the moment was on the committee that considered this, the difference, or the distinction drawn here between people who are mentally ill, and people who are just incapable of being left uncared for and out of custody, in effect, is supposed to be quite significant. But this bill is so nauseatingly, horribly, politically correct, that it has now stuck right into the title the term \u201Crehabilitation\u201D, which undermines the whole basis of the distinction. It seems to assume that these folk are simply people who have lapsed from a normal state of full competence, and they are to be rehabilitated into that normal state of full competence. I hope to find out during the Committee stage whether my fears are, in fact, justified about this bill being likely to be counter-productive and utterly ineffective because of the nauseating approach that infuses it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have looked carefully to see whether this bill deals with the primary problem in the boundary between the criminal justice system and the mental disability system. The real problem is that the criminal justice system takes measures to protect the rest of society, the innocent. The health professional\u2019s duty is clearly to the patient. That transcends all other factors. When we have people who have committed crimes, or people who threaten or harm others, the community needs to know that those who then have the custody and power of control of those folk have a duty to the rest of the community, a duty to protect the innocent that transcends the duty to the patient. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI am afraid I cannot find it in this bill. It may be there. It may be that this bill does resolve that fundamental conflict; if so, it should be in plain terms. It should say that when patients come under the Act, while they still have the expectations of patients with their carers, there is one very, very important qualification: that the carer has a primary and first-ranking duty to the community to make sure that they cannot harm others again. I fear that in all the disgusting verbiage of this bill, that does not appear anywhere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI have used strong language. Let me just look at a few of the measures in this bill: for instance, the statement of principles. When I look into Clause 12(d) of the principles governing children and young persons I start to get anxious: \u201Cconsideration should be given to the wishes of the child or young person,\u201D\u2014of course\u2014\u201Cthat is appropriate in the circumstances, having regard to the age, maturity, and culture of the child or young person:\u201D. In other words, we are to draw race distinctions to govern whether we consider the wishes of a child. So having decided that someone\u2019s culture is generally not very respectful of the wishes of a child, the rest of New Zealand, which holds that to be of high value, will subordinate its judgment to the culture that has decided that it does not respect the wishes of a child. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EI then go to clause 13. All the powers of the Act have to be \u201Cexercised with proper respect for cultural identity and personal beliefs\u201D, including \u201Cproper respect for the care recipient\u2019s\u201D\u2014that is a nauseating term, is it not; what about patient\u2014 the patient\u2019s \u201Ccultural and ethnic identity, language, and religious or ethical beliefs;\u201D. I have no problem with religious or ethical belief. The rest are just synonyms or euphemisms for \u201Crace\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThat, in itself, is not exceptional, but I go a little further. We find when we look at clause 23 that every care recipient is to have a culture assessment. In other words, one of the primary matters is to find out the race of the people in care. If the caregivers decide that the care recipient is a M\u0101ori, and the care recipient agrees that he or she is a M\u0101ori, the coordinator must then try to involve any suitable M\u0101ori organisation. This does not require the patient to agree that he or she wants a M\u0101ori organisation involved. All that that person has to agree is that he or she is M\u0101ori, and the machinery of the State grinds in to draw it, to make race discrimination. What does this have to do with the care and rehabilitation\u2014as this proposes\u2014or even the safe custody and humane treatment of mentally subnormal people who are a danger to their community? Nothing! It is politically correct garbage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe care and rehabilitation plan under clause 24 must identify the care recipient\u2019s needs and take into account the cultural assessment. The whole thing is infused with race prejudice. The whole thing assumes not that these people are, first, people, individuals\u2014poor children, many of them, young persons who have been born with the worst cards in the pack. Instead, it says to identify their race, and start from there. Worse, it does not say to the caregivers\u2014another nauseating term\u2014\u201CRemember that once they have come into the criminal justice system, the primary responsibility must be to the innocent, to those who might be harmed in future.\u201D It says no, the primary responsibility is\u2014first on the list, clause 25(1)(a)\u2014\u201Cthe social, cultural, and spiritual needs\u201D of the patient. That is before even their medical, psychological, or physical needs. The very first needs that have to be considered are the cultural needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003ENone of this augurs well for the detail in this bill. It says that the Health Committee, soaked as it is in race consciousness, has gone about looking at the needs of these people. Clause 50 is another one, which I will not have time to go into in detail. Clause 50 carries it on. It states: \u201CEvery care recipient is entitled to be dealt with in a manner that accords with the spirit and intent of section 13.\u201D\u2014which is the one that sets up the race criteria. That is just in case we forgot, halfway through the bill. The Government goes back to remind us that it has set this up as a primary duty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThen a little bit of lunacy that just caps it: all the provisions of the Health and Disability Commissioner\u2019s Code of Health and Disability Consumers Rights regulation code are to apply to these folk who are in protective custody\u2014that is, protecting themselves and protecting the rest of us. Right No. 2 says that every consumer has the right to be free from discrimination, coercion, harassment, and sexual, financial, or other, exploitation. Free from discrimination! Yet the law tells the caregivers they have to start discriminating. And then the code says they are to be free from discrimination and free from coercion. The whole purpose of this bill is that they are subject to coercion, they are in protective custody. This bill does not have the intellectual honesty to even make an exception for the irrelevant parts of this code that is to apply. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThis is a typical piece of politically correct nonsense from a Government that has waited 4 years since it was first introduced, and then lands it on the House in urgency, probably hoping no one will read it too carefully.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a670aa9a06f14f888b95cf897bea2846\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a670aa9a06f14f888b95cf897bea2846\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party welcomes the return of this bill to the House today. As most members will be aware, it has been around for an awfully long time. While it is odd that we are dealing with such neglected legislation under urgency, I am glad, for the sake of the people affected, that it will be finally passed into law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe need for this bill, and for its accompanying Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7), was created in part by changes to criminal and mental health legislation in 1992. The Green Party totally supports the intent of those changes, which are to separate out, legally, offenders who are suffering from mental illness from those who have an intellectual impairment. Unlike some other speakers in this House over the last 24 hours, Green Party members do not think that mental illness and an intellectual disability are the same thing. It was, and is, entirely appropriate that criminal offenders in those categories should be treated quite separately and distinctly under law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EA problem occurred, however, when the legislative gap created by those changes meant that too few options in the intervening years were left to the courts for dealing with people with intellectual impairment in need of compulsory care. While their numbers are not large at any given time, it does not mean that we as a society should simply dump those people into inappropriate places like prisons or mental health units. Over the last 20 years or so there has been a lot in the media and elsewhere about the problems associated with that unacceptable situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFor example, the incidence of physical and mental abuse of intellectually disabled offenders in prisons is well documented and lurks like an unspeakable shadow within the greater conspiracy of silence about real life in New Zealand prisons. It is also reported that such prisoners are often abused and even exploited by other inmates, are even less able to cope with the harsh environment, and are far more likely to regress rather than progress towards any form, at all, of rehabilitation. Prison is a tough place even for those in sound physical and mental health and without any physical or intellectual disability. For people with major intellectual impairment, it is horrendous that prisons have, and continue to be, the sentence of last resort. I hope that the passage of this bill really will mark the beginning of the end of that situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe major concern the Green Party has with the legislation is not with its intent but with its implementation, as the previous speaker also pointed out. We are suspicious that the number of secure placements needed for offenders covered by the bill\u2019s provisions will not be enough\u2014either now or in the future. We know that the Government has allocated more money and has started setting up hospital-level secure services facilities, but progress does not appear to be happening quickly enough. I hope that the new regional intellectual disability care agencies will move as quickly as is practicable towards establishing the full range of services possible, and that the Government will continue to commit sufficient funding as the agencies go along to make sure that that happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI also note that the Green Party very much supports changes from the original drafting of the bill, which mean adults and young people who are not criminal offenders will be excluded from the scope of this legislation. It was totally unacceptable from a human rights and a civil liberties point of view that the National Government even considered subjecting non-offenders to the provision of compulsory care under this bill. I am glad that the select committee had the sense to take that provision out as soon as it could. For example, in a submission to the Health Committee on the original bill, People First New Zealand, a self-advocacy group for people with an intellectual disability, and others expressed their fear that even people who had committed no crime at all could be locked up, and that that provision would apply not just to adults but also to children and young people. Such a discriminatory approach has no place in the 21st century, and I can assure people that the Green Party would never have supported this bill had those provisions remained in place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWe welcome changes on the Supplementary Order Paper to the definition of intellectual disability, so that it is now in line with the most up to date international standards. It is good to see that the select committee has made it clear that people cannot be defined as intellectually disabled solely because they have a mental disorder, personality disorder, or a brain injury. We are also pleased that there is now a greater focus on rehabilitation than was originally intended.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party looks forward to the passage of this bill into law later today. I hope that the Government will put the necessary resources behind it so that it can fulfil its functions satisfactorily and well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u00226c124ce188564b96ac09d4b3ca8761ea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c124ce188564b96ac09d4b3ca8761ea\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future in support of this bill, which was introduced in 1999. It sets limits on the freedoms of a small but identifiable group of people with an intellectual disability who are in need of compulsory care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIntellectual disability is defined as a learning disability that limits day-to-day functioning and skills. Unlike mental illness it cannot be treated. Intellectually disabled folks are permanently impaired with significant deficits in two or more of the following\u2014I list these because even today in the debate it seems that in some members\u2019 minds there is confusion between mental health and intellectual disability\u2014communication; self-care; home living; social skills; use of community services; self-direction; health and safety; reading, writing, and basic numeracy; leisure; and work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe legislation covers two similar groups. The first group is of those who enter compulsory care from the criminal court, and who, due to impairment, require specialised care and attention. The second group is of individuals who are no longer subject to the criminal justice system but who still require compulsory care of some kind. United Future supports the Health Committee\u2019s recommendation to deal separately with individuals who have an intellectual disability but no history with the criminal justice system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe new strategy for deinstitutionalising the care of individuals who are intellectually and mentally impaired has meant a difficult time for everybody involved in the transition. Many clients have been successfully reintegrated into the community, and now enjoy a quality of life that is vastly improved. However, it is also true that a number of recipients have not been able to make that jump, and will always need some form of institutional care. It is interesting that on 12 July last year the Dominion Post noted the opening of a secure unit at Porirua Hospital. That 10-bed unit is for offenders who have an intellectual disability, and it is the first unit to separate intellectually disabled offenders from mentally ill offenders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EIn 1977 when those provisions were mooted it was estimated that nationwide between 50 to 100 people would be subject to the provisions of the proposed legislation. Current figures are unclear, but I draw to the attention of the House a speech I gave last week in the general debate regarding the increasingly large numbers of children born with brain damage due to foetal alcohol - related causes. There is growing and convincing evidence that our prisons are full of people with intellectual impairment directly related to foetal alcohol conditions. Even this week I have had contact with the Foetal Alcohol Support Trust, which was very worried about the imminent release of a recently diagnosed foetal alcohol syndrome prisoner in relation to where he could be safely housed. That man\u2019s mother was terrified of what could happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThat case highlights the need for increasing resources for the diagnosis of these more subtle intellectual impairments and for better resourcing of appropriate care facilities. It is not about turning back the clock but about recognising that the numbers needing compulsory care may be larger than we realise. However, United Future welcomes the change in thinking this legislation represents. No longer can people be conveniently managed; instead, they are to be viewed as people with rights to quality of life and opportunity to reach potential, like everybody else. We are very happy to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u0022e2a90a41537a4407b69d892ab288caba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e2a90a41537a4407b69d892ab288caba\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very brief call in support of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill. I pay a special tribute to Judy Keall, my predecessor as member for Otaki, who chaired the Health Committee very ably through the process. I am very pleased to see the bill back on the floor of the House. I know that Ruth Dyson will take it through its final passage\u2014and very ably, too.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00224f9ffd55b4f1472091862f02c851314c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f9ffd55b4f1472091862f02c851314c\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to speak to this bill. I recognise the incredible time, effort, and dedication of my colleague Dr Lynda Scott, and I acknowledge the significant contribution made by a former MP, Wyatt Creech, who introduced this bill in 1999. My only disappointment is that this bill has languished for some 4 years or so, and that the parents who have been concerned for their children, who are not covered and protected in the manner they would like to see, have seen it languish.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E They will now be pleased to see that it has come to the forefront. I reiterate my acknowledgement of Dr Lynda Scott and all her fine efforts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI also would like to bring up the point that they did recognise the need for resourcing. That is very evident in the fact that we have only a limited number of services available to accommodate the provisions of this bill and those people who will come into its ambit. A lot more funding will be required. We have a shortage of specialists and caregivers. They are underfunded, and a lot more training and services will be required to give them the ability to meet the needs and standards required by this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EOne of the reasons that this bill was brought into being is because of one Barry Ryder. Looking at some of the press releases regarding what happened to Barry Ryder, one of the first things I saw was the statement: \u201CYesterday the court heard Ryder was institutionalised, unable to cope, out in the community, and had borderline mental retardation. He was committed to Lake Alice Hospital in 1985 after he tried to rape and strangle two boys aged 6 and 7 near Timaru. It was also recognised and acknowledged that he could not be rehabilitated.\u201D People like Barry Ryder would come into the ambit of this bill, and have the security and care of the protected environment they need. This bill will provide that. Barry Ryder will then not do what he was doing, which was molesting innocent young boys. Every time he was out in the community unsupervised, he would offend. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe judge said the prognosis for Ryder, given that he had already received 12 months of treatment, was not good. His assessment was that he presented an extremely high risk of reoffending, yet not much could be done to make sure he was in a secure environment and not able to reoffend. The existing services that were supposed to provide that protection for the public failed in his regard, and this bill will help to fill that gap and address that failure. It provides for the compulsory care of those with intellectual disabilities who, because of their lack of understanding, anti-social, or violent behaviour, need compulsory care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EWe have already heard the story of one young man. When he is around 45 and becomes frustrated, he will become violent and angry. When people see an angry and violent 45-year-old man, they do not necessarily realise that he has the intellect and capabilities of a 5-year-old. How do we deal with someone who is 45 and 6 foot 2? How do we control somebody like that, and manage the situation in such a way that that person is not a threat to the public? How do we make sure that those people do not do themselves or anybody else harm? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EBarry Ryder\u2019s family were most concerned about their ability to make sure that their son was provided for as they grew older. He is 45, and they themselves are aging. They know that there will come a time when they are not around, and they are concerned about his future care in a secure environment. They are absolutely pleased that the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill is now passing through the House, and feel somewhat comforted that their son will be looked after in the future. They believe it looks promising, and so are looking forward to having some comfort in their declining years when they will no longer be able to ensure the safety and protection of their son. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThere are other cases, including that of a young woman who was confined to police cells in Palmerston North. The judge actually apologised to her family, stating that it was clearly unsatisfactory that a young woman in her situation, mentally immature at 33 years of age, was put into a prison cell. Under this bill, that person will be able to be put into a secure and safe environment with support, which is the sort of environment that she needs, rather than being put into jail. It is not on that people with an intellectual disability come into the ambit of being declared criminals and put into jail. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EIn the case of the young man previously mentioned, the family were appreciative of the police\u2019s understanding in that regard, but that might not always be the case. In the young woman\u2019s case, it was late at night, she had wandered away from the family property, was eventually located by rescue helicopter and transferred to a psychiatric unit, but was not admitted. The unit did not take her because she was not declared, or considered to be, a mental patient. She was a person with an intellectual disability. When she, at 33 years of age, threw a tantrum\u2014because her capabilities were not the capabilities of a 33-year-old but those of a 5-year-old\u2014the staff could not control her, so they called in the police. How do people deal with those sorts of rages? They can deal with them in a more secure and supportive environment, and that is what this bill provides. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI know that a number of families out there will be so thankful knowing that their children\u2014at whatever age\u2014will be in a safe and secure environment when they can no longer look after them. That is what this bill does. It provides them with some comfort and measure of hope that that will happen for their children, and that the public, including our children, will be protected from the likes of Barry Ryder, who preyed on young boys at schools. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to see that National had the foresight to ensure that funding was put aside for this bill. It is an excellent plus, and we can only hope that it is still there and ongoing. I thank my colleague Dr Lynda Scott for all her efforts\u2014it has been fantastic\u2014and I acknowledge the efforts of Wyatt Creech in introducing this legislation in 1999. I am disappointed that it has languished for so long.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00228aa9ac5021fa4feaa2541edcbcbeed4c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228aa9ac5021fa4feaa2541edcbcbeed4c\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill. I add my congratulations to the members of the current Health Committee and to their predecessors, and to Judy Keall in particular. I congratulate those members of the House who discussed this matter in a sensitive and professional way, and resisted the political temptation to make cheap gains at the cost of other people\u2019s grief.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022905e86dc76f645a88da326ab4274ebbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022905e86dc76f645a88da326ab4274ebbd\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this very important Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, which is be renamed the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill. The very existence of Supplementary Order Paper 160 is an indictment on the increasing arrogance and carelessness of the Labour Government in the way that it has handled what is indeed a very sensitive and important issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn saying that, I note that the Supplementary Order Paper appears to have some changes in it that are important, and were stressed by the Health Committee back in 1999 and 2001 as being important: for instance, the change in the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. I certainly hope that the Minister, the Hon Ruth Dyson, will take a call to explain why that particular definition has changed, because the select committee went to considerable trouble to ensure that it was reasonably and tightly confined. I believe members wished for a margin of error of about five, whereas now, it is expressed in a different way. An intelligence quotient is expressed as 70 or less, with a confidence level of not less than 75 percent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E This is the sort of thing that Mr Benson-Pope must also take seriously. A Supplementary Order Paper has been brought in under urgency, without the collaboration and communication that was the spirit of this bill when it was first reported to the select committee, and there are some changes. I think it is hugely important that the Minister take a call to clearly explain that sort of change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI, too, would like to pay tribute to the enthusiasm of Judy Keall as chair of the Health Committee. I have mentioned that she has a unique and distinctive way of articulating herself, but she was particularly sincere in ensuring that this bill was progressed. Once again, there is a huge worry that that was back in 1999 to 2000. I want to refer to a press release of January this year: \u201CSex offenders bill gathers dust\u201D. The fact of the matter is that, once again, the Labour Government has not put a priority on a hugely important bill. It has brought it in under urgency, with a Supplementary Order Paper that has some significant changes, which, hopefully, the Minister will explain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill was introduced by National in 1999 in response to concerns that Barry Ryder, who has a 17-year history of sexual offending, would be released back into the community. It is one of the problems of this very sensitive and difficult area of the mentally and intellectually disabled that the press latches on to the highly spectacular cases, but does not concentrate on the detail and the importance of the majority of individuals who are caught up in this legislation. There is also the anguish of the parents of children who are non-offenders, but who know that they are a time-bomb in terms of their potential for offending, yet there is a lack of adequate facilities to look after them. Again, one of the very important and thoughtful contributions made by Wyatt Creech and the National Government was to put aside $50 million to ensure that as this legislation finally came into being, there would hopefully be provision to cater for it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIn terms of the background commentary, the importance of the bill is encapsulated by the fact that, as introduced, it sets out the limits that can be imposed on the freedoms of people who have an intellectual disability and are in need of compulsory care. Prior to 1992, people with an intellectual disability were included in the definition of \u201Cmental disorder\u201D under the Mental Health Act of 1969. It was absolutely obvious that there had to be a dramatic catch-up in this legislation, which was clearly inappropriate. This bill certainly does that, but the huge indictment on the Labour Government is the fact that it has languished for so long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the commentary points out that the specific exclusion of people with an intellectual disability does create a legislative gap, resulting in limited options being available to the courts for dealing with people with such a disability. For some, that has resulted in inappropriate placement in prison, mental health services, or discharge into the community. Once again, I go back to the Simpson report on psychiatric illness within the prison system in New Zealand. It points out just how substantial and serious untreated mental illness is within our prison system, and how serious is it that this Labour Government\u2014despite all its rhetoric from the 1990s\u2014has not moved seriously to correct the findings of that extremely important report from Dr Sandy Simpson back in 1999. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI think it is also important, once again, to point out the pleas from parents who were submitters to this bill. For instance, Andrew and Kathleen Taylor wrote of the problem of lack of adequate resources: \u201CFor several years now we, as parents of a child with special needs have been encouraged to believe that the care of our children should happen in the communities in which they live. We have been encouraged to embrace \u2018mainstreaming\u2019 and \u2018inclusion\u2019 in education and leisure. We were promised adequate levels of support. Institutions were a thing of the past. Now it appears that our children can be incarcerated if authorities feel that they \u2018appear to pose a risk \u2026\u2019 without them having committed any offence.\u201D They go on to state: \u201CInstead of such a punitive bill, we would like to see measures put in place to adequately support parents/caregivers to care for their disabled dependents safely in their own communities. This would be a far less expensive option. With adequate levels of supervision \u2018dangerous\u2019 incidents would be extremely rare.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to end by saying that it was the Hon Phil Goff who, 4 years ago, said that the nub of this legislation was in providing adequate facilities. That has not happened under this Labour Government, and it is high time that this bill has finally appeared before the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAmendments recommended by the Health Committee by majority agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBill to proceed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EName changed to the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b5466915ca743e3a19cac8acc962f9e\u0022\u003EIntellectual Disability (Compulsory Careand Rehabilitation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aebc288f0b564b61a6147f2d29c61d53\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002240033a90af83475daf162e98214f5021\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002240033a90af83475daf162e98214f5021\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the whole House on the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill that it take the bill part by part and consider any schedules as one question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002291242c53486644eaa29316c26f62133a\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2f9469d4fca41669a28a6213ae8b671\u0022\u003EClause 1  Title\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022b1c943265be440798d5996a58cfe49ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b1c943265be440798d5996a58cfe49ed\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I take a call on the title, which has been changed to the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill, with the term \u201Crehabilitation\u201D having been added. I have to say, while the term \u201Crehabilitation\u201D is used, it is difficult sometimes to see how rehabilitation fits in with intellectual disability, which is a permanent, ongoing condition. What really fits in is support services putting structure and scaffolding around a person\u2019s life, so that that person can then behave in a more appropriate manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E I am not sure that that is called rehabilitation; I always think of rehabilitation as helping individuals to engage in new and enriching ways. I suppose that if the amount of support structures necessary can be put around somebody, then rehabilitation may be an appropriate term if behaviour can be changed. We know that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2524c9f43d4e1c88f6787f2e8cd2c1\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: In this debate, could we stick strictly to the clause under discussion? It is the title clause, clause 1. Unlike other debate over the last 2 days when we have ranged fairly widely, this debate is narrow and must be kept narrow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022edd1079a1eba4c49858ebebf8285f603\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I have heard that from Chairpersons before, who then go on to let everyone else have a wide-ranging debate, but I will stick to the title. I am sticking to the title, because \u201Crehabilitation\u201D has been added to it. I am talking about the new title of the bill, and whether it is appropriate to have \u201Crehabilitation\u201D added by the Supplementary Order Paper to this bill. The title was Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, which was very appropriate because that is what this bill is all about. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe legislation covers those people who have an intellectual disability\u2014I do note that the Minister has changed that definition, even though we at the select committee spent hours and hours talking about the definition, so we will be asking why it has changed\u2014who are people born with an intellectual disability, or who suffer a birth trauma and have an intellectual disability, but it does not apply to people who suffer a brain injury, for example a traumatic brain injury. They are not covered by this bill. So people with an intellectual disability are covered by this bill, and the specific title for this bill needs to cover that. It needs to cover those with intellectual disability, because the Mental Health Act no longer does. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe title is the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill. The words \u201Ccompulsory care\u201D are important, because that is what this bill is about. It is about taking those people who have an intellectual disability and who offend. We have taken out the non-offender group, which was originally in the bill, but these are people who offend, and who therefore need compulsory care. It is very sad\u2014extremely sad\u2014to have people who have an intellectual disability being hounded by a community or coming before the law and being put in jail. So the whole point of this bill is to give compulsory care for people who have an intellectual disability, in specific circumstances, in specific facilities designed for them, and with a care package that will be wrapped around them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAdding \u201Crehabilitation\u201D to the title relates to the parts of the bill where we have added needs assessment and rehabilitation plans. So having a rehabilitation plan for people can mean that they will be able to be released into community care, rather than being in 24-hour, permanent locked care. But as we know with the David Stephens case, there are some people for whom that will never be able to be the case. Because of their behaviour, their lack of anger management, and the fact they do not understand the consequences of their actions, they will have to be in permanent, ongoing, compulsory care, as identified by the title of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI do not think that we should in any way change the title. I have not moved any amendments or substituted anything for this title, because it does determine, in a clear and defined way, what this bill is about. Compulsory care imposes limits on individuals and limits their freedom, so that is why a specific Act of Parliament is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e9c94c2c4b0a42f0b3421096c3c888eb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e9c94c2c4b0a42f0b3421096c3c888eb\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I will take a short call to back up what Dr Lynda Scott said about the word \u201CRehabilitation\u201D in the title. I think rehabilitation is a word that is often misunderstood, and that in this case we are asking for trouble, in a way, by including it in the title. In fact, I am going to propose an amendment to have the word \u201CRehabilitation\u201D removed from the title. We will amend the amendment\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a168f6db6ce4f3294edfcaa508a76c3\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: You are going to amend the amendment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af1a5253f2164c31ac837f7d54ea88d8\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right\u2014so that we move back to the title being the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, which I think describes the intention of this bill much better. Rehabilitation, I notice, is not defined either in the bill itself or in the Supplementary Order Paper. I would have thought that with its inclusion in the title it should, perhaps, have been defined. That would have made a good deal of sense. It should have been defined so that we know exactly what it is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EIntellectual disability, of course, is a lifelong condition. It is a description of somebody\u2019s intellectual capacity. Rehabilitation implies that somebody can improve from a set position. We know that that is not the case with intellectual disability. When people are disabled, the measurement of their disabilities cannot be improved upon. The implication is that people\u2019s behaviour can be improved, and that indeed is sometimes the case, despite the fact that these people are often functioning at a very low level throughout their lives. But the base from which they operate will never be able to be changed with treatment. Although their behaviour may be modified in a positive way, their base condition will see no improvement at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWith regard to the title clause, we will put an amendment forward; indeed it will be an amendment to amend the amendment. But it is important that in the interests of stipulating what the bill is truly about, the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D is removed from the title. I do not mean by that that we should make no effort with these people. I believe the opposite. These people should be put into facilities that are there specifically to cope with their particular problems. The word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D in the title is a misnomer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u002245852bf3ab324a0e9b5c5f238fc4aef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245852bf3ab324a0e9b5c5f238fc4aef4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E I am speaking to the title of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care) Bill, now to be known as the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill. I must say that for slightly different reasons this addition to the Supplementary Order Paper of the term \u201CRehabilitation\u201D needs to be approached. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ELet us have a look at the \u201CIntellectual Disability\u201D part of the title, which was the nub and one of the most important definitions to get right. When we think of that as being the important part of the title, we look to the Supplementary Order Paper where there is a change in the definition of \u201CIntellectual Disability\u201D. I go back to the commentary of the Health Committee, whose members went to huge efforts to ensure that the meaning of intellectual disability was defined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESo we need the opportunity of having the Minister in the chair, willing to explain the meaning of intellectual disability and why the committee has changed it. It is very important that she does so. The select committee said, on the one hand, that it had concerns regarding the standard of testing to be used, specifically given the narrowness of the definition of intelligence quotient\u2014originally set at 70, or so\u2014but, on the other hand, it said further that it had considered submissions and that it would be very important effectively to have a margin of error of 5, which would mean a cut-off at an IQ of 75. We go to the Supplementary Order Paper, which is highly relevant to the title, and we see a change. So it will be important that the Minister does indeed give the Committee an explanation why the select committee has made this fundamentally important change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E After all, this bill is about being able to define, diagnose, and care for those with intellectual disabilities, which is absolutely related to the title. This is nub of it. The difficulty is that we have a Supplementary Order Paper that has amended the title, and that has also amended the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWith regard to the addition of \u201Cand rehabilitation\u201D, and the amendment to the amendment by Heather Roy of the ACT party, I think that, in many respects, if we go back to what the select committee said about the emphasis on rehabilitation, then on the one hand there is no need to have \u201Crehabilitation\u201D in the title\u2014and I agree in that respect\u2014but on the other hand it would be a little churlish of me not to recognise the importance that the select committee placed on rehabilitation. The select committee said there should be explicit recognition of the importance of rehabilitation, where possible, to ensure that people do not receive custodial care only. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe have a slight dilemma there. On the one hand we have the Labour Government adding a Supplementary Order Paper, under urgency, to a bill that has been around for 4 years. Not only has the Government changed the definition of the key words \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D in the Supplementary Order Paper, but it has also added in the term \u201Cand rehabilitation\u201D\u2014quite redundantly and quite unnecessarily, because the emphasis has been placed on that in the select committee commentary, which points out how absolutely fundamental that is. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ESpeaking on the real nub of the title, which happens to be the question of the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D, I have grave concerns as to the process followed by the Labour Government in bringing in the Supplementary Order Paper without consultation, under urgency, and changing something that is so fundamentally important. Over many decades, there has been a huge debate as to how to accurately define \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u00226455b5b7501645929fbbf952c527ad12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226455b5b7501645929fbbf952c527ad12\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a short call to say that although New Zealand First recognises the inclusion of the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D in the title, we accept the comments made by the select committee in its report. One concern I have about its inclusion, although I welcome it as part of the title and therefore as part of the bill, is that \u201Crehabilitation\u201D, as such, is not defined. It is certainly not defined in the Supplementary Order Paper. I must commend the Government\u2014given that we have challenged its process so far in terms of the way it has dealt with the amount of legislation this week, and, in particular, the fact that the last debate concerned a Supplementary Order Paper to the tune of 40-odd pages\u2014for this one being reduced to 10 pages. So one can only presume that the Government is starting to see the light, and that the introduction of such lengthy Supplementary Order Papers at such late notice is being considered a little bit out of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003EEven though other parties in the Chamber may want to prolong the debate, in looking at the Supplementary Order Paper, and at the title, in particular, I think it is relevant that the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D be included. If that issue is not addressed\u2014and some people may argue that \u201Crehabilitation\u201D should not be included in this particular bill\u2014I think we are doomed to retain the attitude we have had for far too long in this country, and to condemn those who are the subject of this bill to a lifetime of enduring the illnesses they have been afflicted with, without any care or concern expressed by the community. Therefore, I welcome the inclusion of the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D in the title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022ca63d9cd164743cbb68d4b9e10bc3b97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ca63d9cd164743cbb68d4b9e10bc3b97\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E As I look at the title \u201CIntellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill\u201D, I think: what about making it the \u201CIntellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation or Not) Bill\u201D? It must be remembered that rehabilitation will not always be possible. Earlier on, I talked about Barry Ryder, whose case was a key one in helping to bringing about this bill. It was recognised that Barry Ryder could not necessarily be rehabilitated, and the judge said that, without doubt, he was most likely to reoffend. The first question asked by the parents was about why experts thought that he could ever be rehabilitated. Rehabilitation will not necessarily be an option. Therefore, the bill could be called the \u201CIntellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation or Not) Bill\u201D, or the \u201CRehabilitation Where Applicable Bill\u201D. Rehabilitation is not absolutely always something that can be achieved. I would like to acknowledge our concerns about \u201Crehabilitation\u201D not being defined. I think definition is absolutely necessary, and I acknowledge the words of Pita Paraone in recognising that. It is to be hoped that the Minister will ensure a definition is provided, perhaps in the form of a Supplementary Order Paper, before the bill goes too much further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EPressing on, with regard to whether \u201Crehabilitation\u201D should be in the title\u2014I see you leaning that way, Mr Chairperson\u2014I will stick to the title and explain about rehabilitation not necessarily being achievable. Justice Chisholm, in his prognosis for Barry Ryder, said: \u201CIn my assessment, you represent an extremely high risk of reoffending.\u201D When Ryder was unaccompanied and not being supervised, he was caught, by an adult, with a boy in a secluded area by a school, with a knife, a tube of lubricant, and a book about anal intercourse. Ryder has ruined the lives of four boys, and the judge has said he will likely reoffend, and that it is likely he cannot be rehabilitated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI bring members back to the title, which is about rehabilitation. That may not necessarily be achieved, and I think we need to be realistic about that. Much as we might all like to see people being rehabilitated when they are a danger either to themselves or to the public, through no fault of their own but through circumstance bringing it about, rehabilitation, as identified in the title, is not necessarily always achievable. I raised another case earlier about a woman aged 33 who went into violent rages. Because she went into those rages, her parents could not find an agency that would care for her. This was a real concern, and a problem. I do not know whether that person can be rehabilitated, but in terms of the title, possibly not. Who knows? The one thing that was of real comfort to the parents was that she did find a secure and safe environment at the Kimberley Centre. That was something they were most appreciative of. They were also appreciative of the expertise of the services that were provided at Kimberley. Any rehabilitation that may have been able to take place would have been provided for at Kimberley, and in that case it was a positive, but in the case of Barry Ryder, it was definitely a very clear negative. Having the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D in the title is a bit of a concern, but because we are so supportive of this bill we will not agonise unduly over the title. As I said before, it is to be hoped that a definition for the term \u201Crehabilitation\u201D will be provided in the bill by the Minister, before it goes much further. I think it is absolutely necessary that we do have a definition of rehabilitation, and we look forward to that being the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022 data-id=\u0022fd8614b63e6d4edd9db5d84541510eb3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fd8614b63e6d4edd9db5d84541510eb3\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Throughout this bill the Health Committee has inserted references to rehabilitation, so that at least the title does reflect what the bill now contains. The reason why I support my colleague Heather Roy\u2019s amendment to omit the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D from the bill is relatively simple. I am a humble man. I do not like to see Parliament pretending to do something that science and doctors tell us is impossible. It is a little bit like Wellington City setting up a sign outside the airport that says \u201CEarthquake-free Zone\u201D. It is just as useful. Although \u201Crehabilitation\u201D may be a word that everyone likes\u2014and it makes a warm fuzzy feeling for a select committee that was busy sticking warm fuzzy bits into the bill\u2014as I understand it the key thing that distinguishes people who are to be subject to this Act from those who are insane and subject to other provisions, is the realisation that they are not capable of rehabilitation, and that their illness is a permanent disability. Of course the symptoms can be ameliorated, and of course behaviour modification may improve the way in which they are cared for, but the criterion has been set because they simply are not capable of rehabilitation or, under current medical knowledge, there is no prospect of rehabilitation. They will stay with whatever quotient they are given that categorises them in these forms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EParliament should not be legislating a scientific nonsense. Of course, if we accept the amendment and restore this bill to the more realistic objectives in its title, and reject the wishful thinking that has gone into it, then there are a number of provisions that would have to follow through. But they, too, would make the bill more honest. If we take the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D out of the title, we can then go through each of the five or six places where I have seen the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D inserted, and we would no longer have the prospect of some poor caregiver or institution at some stage being required by a judge to give effect to a provision that is incapable of being given effect. As we go through we will see that the plan for care, which previously was a care plan, now has to be a care and rehabilitation plan. The title is the first place where this nonsense appears. There are a number of clauses where that ridiculous word should be taken out. It is not defined. From my understanding, the select committee did not know what it was talking about. It just thought it would be very nice to look pious and well intentioned, so it stuck in some references to rehabilitation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003EThe select committee\u2019s comments under the heading \u201CEmphasis on rehabilitation\u201D, on page 7 of its report, are about programmes to meet needs, and the recognition of the importance of rehabilitation. We can recognise the importance all we like, but if the whole bill is founded on a view that these people are not curable, that rehabilitation is not what is done\u2014or maybe it is. This is one of the words that Labour members like to redefine from time to time. It is a little bit like the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, or any of those other slogan words that mean whatever they want them to mean. Rehabilitation once was a respectable word that meant to restore people to the living state that they had previously. These people are going to be restored or rehabilitated to their former condition, but the fact is that their former condition was probably worse. They have never had a good state to be rehabilitated to. The word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D is a nonsense, and it should not be in this bill. It simply makes the title longer. It is inserted only to make people with woolly minds feel better, and it will cause legal problems if anyone takes it seriously. The provisions in which the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D have been inserted throughout the bill, where it is added after the word \u201Ccare\u201D, can mean nothing if this bill is truly to distinguish the state of these people from those who are\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c12b4979d47d45549fd46d34cf719de6\u0022\u003EEdwin Perry\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s your solution?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9fae97967f14b09b733d6eb49948533\u0022\u003ESTEPHEN FRANKS\u003C/span\u003E: My solution is simply to take the word out. If we want to have something nice in there, we can put in a substantive provision that says people are entitled to all the care programmes that can ameliorate their condition, so far as is reasonably practical with the resources available. That is what I think members of the committee probably wanted it to mean. But they did not say that. Instead they plucked out of the air a word that they thought sounded nice, stuck it in the title, and stuck it throughout the bill. Interestingly, in all the criteria for care and rehabilitation plans, nowhere does it actually say that a care and rehabilitation plan has to have a plan for rehabilitation. It is just stuck in as a title matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4a66c1eeac9418ebfa600198d9454c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4a66c1eeac9418ebfa600198d9454c7\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002226558d1a0b094e24a8b41bbcfe9a8433\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000307\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 160 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to clause 1 be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022380bdaa698154fadb59e3bf0e8666eb5\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000308\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Heather Roy to clause 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000309\u0022\u003Eto omit the words \u201Cand Rehabilitation\u201D.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022a10225a6e3464f31b8cdf58b55166019\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to, and clause 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6e4957f2a1c476f8e648c1c8fb7f9b6\u0022\u003EPart 1  Preliminary provisions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00221e104f26d01748aeb5e241e1cf7ca981\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e104f26d01748aeb5e241e1cf7ca981\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E This part contains some substantial provisions, including definitions, interpretations, and the commencement dates. I want to talk about clause 7, \u201CMeaning of intellectual disability\u201D. We spent a great deal of time discussing this in the Health Committee. We did not want the definition to be too narrow. A definition that is too narrow would mean there were people who were not captured under the provisions of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI had amongst my select committee papers an article from Truth, dated 26 March 1999, that has the headlines \u201CHandicapped flasher hounded\u201D and \u201CTownsfolk gang up on village idiot\u201D. I think that shows us how far we have come in the way we treat people with an intellectual disability, because I do not believe those headlines would be used today. The article was about the pretty sad case of a chap called Peter McCallion, who had a quite significant intellectual disability. He ended up in prison, where he should not have been, was accused of all sorts of things he never did, and was beaten up severely. The people who had cared for him said: \u201CThere just aren\u2019t any places for the Peters of this world.\u201D That is what this bill is all about\u2014making sure there are places for the Peters of this world who have a significant intellectual disability and who come before the law because of behaviour they are not responsible for, or who have no anger management and just act out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe select committee came up with a new definition for intellectual disability. Rather than defining a person as having an intellectual disability if he or she has an IQ of 70 or below, the committee tried to expand the definition by stating under clause 7(1): \u201CA person has an intellectual disability if the person has a permanent impairment that\u2014(a) results in significantly sub-average general intelligence as measured by standard psychometric tests generally used by clinicians; and (b) results in significant deficits, as measured by tests generally used by clinicians, in at least 2 of the skills listed ...\u201D. The reason that was added to the definition is that somebody may have an IQ that is higher than 70 but be very deficient in certain skills, especially social skills. If that happens, that person may not be captured in a rigid definition that uses just an intelligence quotient, and if that is the case, this bill will not be able to be used to have him or her placed in compulsory care or in a permanent facility. Certainly, in the case of Peter, that is where he needed to be. He needed to be in a place where he could be cared for appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EClause 7(2) states: \u201CFor the purposes of diagnosing, under subsection (1)(a), a person\u2019s general intelligence as significantly sub-average,\u2014(a) an intelligence quotient of approximately 70 or less ...\u201D, but we said under paragraph (c): \u201Ca possible quotient of 75 is the effective maximum at which a person\u2019s intelligence can be diagnosed to be of that kind.\u201D The Minister has a Supplementary Order Paper that takes that quotient of 75 back to 70. Amongst the people I spoke to who work in the intellectual disability and mental health areas there were those who thought it was of concern if the definitions were too rigid. The skills subclause that the select committee put in refers to the ability to communicate, self-care, home living, social skills, use of community services, self-direction, health and safety, reading, writing, and arithmetic, and leisure and work. We are talking about people who can actually function in society. I am sure there are quite a few people who do not function in society who do not have an intellectual disability, but we are trying to confine the definition under this bill to those who do. So there is concern about that under clause 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EClause 6(2) refers to special-care recipients, meaning a person who is liable to be detained in a secure facility under an order made under the Criminal Justice Act. We have just debated the amendments to the Criminal Justice Act, from which a new bill was developed\u2014one that we did not support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022b7fa7ef21ada4da28f4bc6b0abc5f429\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b7fa7ef21ada4da28f4bc6b0abc5f429\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 1 does indeed have some very substantial components to it. One has only to go to clause 5 to note that the term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D is once again defined. I recall Stephen Franks from the ACT party saying that this bill is absolutely inculcated with politically correct terms. One has only to go to the dictionary to note that the noun \u201Cpatient\u201D means \u201Ca person receiving care or treatment\u201D. But, oh no, the terminology here has to be \u201Ccare recipient\u201D, which is using two words for the price of one. That is very indicative of this Labour Government, which is so keen on adding compliance costs, and verbiage that signifies very little.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt is also interesting that the adjective of the term means \u201Chaving or showing patience\u201D. Certainly, when it comes to Part 1, the community has had to show extraordinary patience, because, after all, it was back in 1997 that the courts were saying it was urgent that this bill be progressed. In 1999 under the National Government, Wyatt Creech quite rightly introduced the bill to Parliament, but under the Labour Government it has taken these many years before finally we have it back before us today. The terminology is highly important, and it is, once again, a reflection of how this Labour Government will use two words instead of one when there is an opportunity to do so. It will sure as hang do exactly that, rather than use the time-honoured word that people know and understand\u2014such as \u201Cpatient\u201D, meaning a person receiving care or treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI too want to focus for a moment on the meaning of the term \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. Once again, if one looks at the Supplementary Order Paper the Associate Minister of Health Ruth Dyson has brought in, without collaboration and without the consultation that did occur so well in the Health Committee, one notices an anomaly. The officials might like to prick up their ears here, because I see that the explanatory note of the Supplementary Order Paper talks about the change to the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D, and it goes on to say \u201C(that is an intelligence quotient that is expressed as 70 or less, and with a confidence level of not less than 75%)\u201D. When one goes to the words in the bill\u2014which I have temporarily mislaid\u2014I think one finds that they talk about a confidence level of not less than 95 percent. Which is correct?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHopefully, the Minister in the chair, the Hon George Hawkins, will take a call and sort out what this anomaly is all about. This is a hugely important definition. It is one of the nubs of the bill. In the depths of the night, the Government brought in this Supplementary Order Paper, which quite clearly has the words \u201Ca confidence level of not less than 75%\u201D; yet when we go to the words of the definition in the bill, we see that they talk about a confidence level of 95 percent. The Minister cannot have it both ways. It is time he observed proper process, particularly when it comes to bills as important as this one. I hope he will take a call on this hugely central definition, \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D, and confess that once again a mistake has been made because he has been sloppy\u2014often there is sloppiness when a Supplementary Order Paper of this substantial note is brought in without consultation\u2014or he will give an explanation of what it means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002236e0f01dfadc47b7950d1e4fe53782e7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236e0f01dfadc47b7950d1e4fe53782e7\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me pleasure to rise to speak on Part 1. I want to back up Paul Hutchison\u2019s comments about the change to the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. Although I was not part of the Health Committee, which considered this report, I am concerned to hear that the committee spent a long time debating what determines whether somebody is intellectually disabled\u2014I suspect the committee had very good advice from the medical profession\u2014yet the definition in Supplementary Order Paper 160 goes back to the original definition. The Government had obviously made up its mind that the definition would be narrow, rather than allowing the flexibility that the committee obviously felt was necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI am pleased to see that Ruth Dyson, the Minister responsible for the bill, is now back in the chair, because I want her to define \u201Crehabilitation\u201D. She will have heard my concerns about the inclusion of the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D in the bill, not because I am opposed to rehabilitation but because it is important, particularly for the public and for public expectations, to have \u201Crehabilitation\u201D defined, so that unrealistic expectations do not become widespread within the community. It is unrealistic to expect the disabled condition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D to be rehabilitated; obviously, that is an impossible task. But if the Minister is talking about behaviour modification of the intellectually disabled to whom the bill is referring, that is quite a different matter. As confusion could exist, not only among the public but also with some in the medical profession, and with judges having to rule on these cases, it is important to define clearly what we mean by \u201Crehabilitation\u201D. I ask the Minister to take a call and explain, or, better still, to put forward an amendment so that \u201Crehabilitation\u201D is clearly defined in the bill. I do not think that is an unreasonable request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe increasing use of politically correct language in legislation was an issue raised by my colleague Stephen Franks, and also by Paul Hutchison just a moment ago. It is appearing more and more in legislation put forward by this Government, and is very obvious in this bill. I pick up on Paul Hutchison\u2019s point about the definition of \u201Ccare recipient\u201D. Once upon a time we talked about \u201Cpatients\u201D. Somebody receiving medical care of some kind was defined as a \u201Cpatient\u201D. Certainly, the patients seemed happy with that, and everybody knew that meant somebody who was receiving treatment or care. That term was changed to \u201Cclient\u201D, and I noticed that Judy Turner used that term when speaking in the second reading. The term \u201Cclient\u201D, in the area of intellectual disability, has become the norm of late. When I worked in the medical field as a physiotherapist the people I treated were always \u201Cpatients\u201D. I never considered them to be \u201Cclients\u201D. The word \u201Cclient\u201D implies the handing over of money in some way, the getting of something in return. Now we have moved on to \u201Ccare recipient\u201D. Again, that term has sort of been defined, but for the life of me I just cannot understand what was wrong with \u201Cpatient\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThen we see a provision in the Supplementary Order Paper that replaces the term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D with \u201Cpeoples\u201D. We seem to have done a complete loop\u2014going from \u201Cpatient\u201D right through to \u201Cpeoples\u201D. Likewise, clause 6(2) defines \u201Cspecial care recipient\u201D, whereas in the past the term was \u201Cspecial patient\u201D. Again, I do not know what was wrong with that. It is the terminology used by everybody in the field. To be politically correct, we have changed all these terms.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAnother confusing and totally unnecessary term that has crept in is \u201Cseclusion\u201D. Supplementary Order Paper 160 amends subclause (5)(c) of clause 4 by omitting the word \u201Cisolation\u201D and substituting the word \u201Cseclusion\u201D, and that change is made in other parts of the bill. Those two words are frequently used intermittently in the health sector. Isolation and seclusion really mean the same thing. The term \u201Cisolation\u201D has been used for an awfully long time. I ask the Minister to tell us why we are changing the term \u201Cisolation\u201D to \u201Cseclusion\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022af48818777d54db48889eca7afd030ef\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af48818777d54db48889eca7afd030ef\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I am very pleased to stand to speak to Part 1. What comes to mind for me is what these particular parents are thinking as they grow older and as their children grow older. These parents start to worry and become anxious about what they can do to make sure their children are protected when the parents can no longer do that, when they are no longer capable of ensuring their children\u2019s ongoing care, protection, safety, and security in a secure and caring environment. When we talk about \u201Cchildren\u201D we are talking about grown children who may be 45 years of age, 6 feet 2 inches tall, and hugely strong, but who have the mental capabilities of a 5-year-old. The overriding concern of those parents is that their children have a safe and caring environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI am looking at the meaning of \u201Cfacility\u201D and \u201Csecure facility\u201D in the bill. Those facilities are what some of the parents are seeking for their children. They want a secure environment for them. It need not be a secure facility in the terms we know, such as a hospital; it could be a residential house. But it has to be secure in the terms of this bill. But is that enough? Is it enough to know there is 24-hour care for someone like Barry Ryder, when one knows that the system can fail? For those sorts of persons, who can be a risk to themselves and to others, but more particularly to others, the system has failed to ensure that they are in a secure environment. There is the danger of that secure facility not necessarily going to the nth degree. But this bill is here and it is providing a degree of comfort for parents who do have that growing sense of anxiety as they themselves get older. It is a very real concern. I have talked to some of these parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI put some questions to the Minister about what services would be in place to provide secure beds for intellectually disabled people with high and complex needs, and for persons who might come within the ambit of this bill. The first 10-bed, hospital-level secure unit, Te Huia, has been established in Wellington, and others are going to be established in the main centres. But will that be enough? I put it to the Committee that, given some of the speeches we have heard today, it will not be enough. For example, foetal alcohol syndrome is becoming a recognised problem, particularly in prisons. So are 10 beds at Te Huia, and maybe eight beds here and 10 beds there, going to be enough in the terms of the facilities and secure facilities identified in this bill? How many are we going to end up having, and will they be enough to meet the concerns of parents with regard to the provision of a secure and safe environment for their children as they grow older?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThose parents wonder how their children will fit into these placements. They are somewhat hopeful, given the passage of this bill. They are also hopeful about their other concerns around caregivers and care providers\u2014that they will be better paid, better trained, and better supported. That is a huge concern. It is as important to the care and protection of their children as the provision of secure facilities. We need to have provision for, within those facilities, care providers and caregivers. It is necessary that there is a holistic approach, if one likes, to meeting the needs of the individuals within those secure facilities or secure environments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would like to recognise the Hauraki Lifestyle Supported Trust, which is in my electorate. It does an excellent job in providing a secure and safe environment for the people in its care. I am incredibly heartened by the heartfelt way in which it provides for the people in its care. I see it as a model, and it has been recognised as a model. I want to acknowledge the people involved with it. It is to be hoped that the secure facilities that are identified in this bill do have that sort of support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022ef1471ad07d94ff89f6977726cd1589e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ef1471ad07d94ff89f6977726cd1589e\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I just want to make a small contribution on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecae589aa6aa4adc8204efb1fe55b9e2\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Nothing this member does is small.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea58be154ec7431dabbf74959a3fea80\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, OK, I want to make a significant contribution. In particular, I want to ask the Minister a question. In the dealings that I have as the member of Parliament for Northland, I have found that when we come across cases like this often part of the problem is that there are just not enough trained people and resources to provide the services that these people need. I know that the Government has put significant funding aside\u2014and good on it for doing that. We hope that the funding will be enough; I guess we will find out in time whether it is. The Minister may be able to indicate whether she is satisfied that we have enough trained people out there to do the job. When we deal with these people, that is often the area where we are limited. If that is the case\u2014and maybe it is not, but I suspect that it may be so\u2014how will we go about getting sufficient people into the system to be able to help, with regard to these issues? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EOften the resources that are needed to provide for the needs of these people are significant. It is a great shame, in some of the dealings that I have, that where the argument comes that people need support and help, it is actually an issue of going through the system and getting people who are able to give that assistance. The problem is that as a local member of Parliament one makes representations on behalf of somebody, gets something looked at, get involved with it, and makes some progress for that person, to the detriment of someone else. That is the sad issue with regard to all of those sorts of things. The question is whether we have sufficient resources. I wanted to make that point\u2014that is, do we have enough people with the ability to deal with those issues? I suspect that we do not. I also suspect that we need to put a whole lot of emphasis into making sure we have people who are properly trained to be able to deliver the services that we require, as we put this legislation together. I draw to the Minister\u2019s attention that it is one issue that I would like to think we will put a whole lot of focus on as we pass this bill through. We need to make sure that we are not just trying to paint over something and say we have done something, so it will all be OK, because it may not be. If we just pass a piece of legislation, that certainly does not mean it will fix the problem. There is a wider issue out there, and I wanted to make that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 160 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to Part 1 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 1 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022881bd6a996664f6dbb3c21f11e26efe6\u0022\u003EPart 2  Principles and general duties\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00224cf50ebea47044cc9ab4348a69e28e03\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224cf50ebea47044cc9ab4348a69e28e03\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E This part covers the principles and general duties. Clause 14 talks about interpreters having to be provided. That is very important when we are talking about someone with an intellectual disability who may have difficulty in communicating anyway. I think that provision brings us back to talking about a definition of normal behaviour and the cultural setting in which it takes place. When any of us travel we are always struck by the different cultural and religious beliefs of the other countries that we travel in. It is important that interpreters are provided, to try to get appropriate information. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe can imagine the situation that occurs if someone is maybe involved in, say, a car accident, and the police turn up and see someone in the car behaving in an unusual manner. That could be because of a head injury that that person has sustained, or it could be because he or she has an intellectual disability or has used drugs. The police at the roadside cannot determine what the reason for that behaviour is, and people in such situations can sometimes end up in police care, where the police have to determine what is causing the behaviour. If we add a language problem to that as well, then we have severe difficulty in being able to sort out the cause of somebody\u2019s behaviour. So it is really important that interpreters are provided. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EUnder clause 13 we have the statement that the powers are to be exercised with proper respect to a person\u2019s cultural identity and personal beliefs. I am not too sure about the personal beliefs one, but, certainly, the cultural context in which somebody works with his or her language, religion, and ethical beliefs needs to be taken into account, because that may create behaviour that may be unusual to someone of a different cultural belief. Those are some of the clauses that are in this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe have to look at the individual cases that we have had. I have talked to the police down in Marlborough about the problems they face. The police and our judges deal with the front line, and that may also include ambulance staff, although ambulance staff probably have more knowledge about intellectual disability than the police sometimes do. But in those situations it is quite difficult to understand why someone is behaving in the way that he or she is. If that person has an intellectual disability, then this legislation has to immediately begin to be implemented, and that means providing an appropriate assessment of the person and developing a care plan for him or her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EUnder Part 2 we also see the principles governing decisions affecting children and young persons. In the case of people who have an IQ of 70 their intellectual ability remains completely stunted, so they do not develop the maturity or social ability to manage in society. It is far easier to be able to manage their care when they are children. It is when a child of 6 then becomes a 6 foot 2 inch man, who is extremely strong but remains with the intellectual capacity of a child of 6, that we have had some of the sad cases we have seen in the past that have led to the development of this bill\u2014people like David Stephens, and the problems his parents had in coping with him. It is important that decisions affecting children and young persons should, where practical, be made and implemented within a time frame that is appropriate, so that families can move ahead and get a care plan for them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EClause 9 talks about secure facilities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u002207680df311c44571a3c5eff0943cfa27\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002207680df311c44571a3c5eff0943cfa27\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a brief call on this part, which is actually quite a small part. Having not been part of the select committee process that went through the whole bill very thoroughly, I would like to ask about the area of interpreters. I am not sure what the intention of clause 14(2)(a)(i) is. It states an interpreter is to be provided if \u201Cthe first or preferred language of the care recipient is M\u0101ori or another language other than English;\u201D. The thing that worries me is the use of the word \u201Cpreferred\u201D, particularly as in New Zealand there are people who are obviously very fluent in both English and M\u0101ori. I am concerned, in particular, about the cost that could be incurred, especially if an interpreter is required for quite some time. I worry that health dollars may be diverted from where they perhaps should be spent, and be spent instead on something like the use of an interpreter when people who are quite capable of being understood in English say that they would prefer to be heard in a completely separate language. I wonder what thought the Health Committee gave to that when it was processing this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EWe see that in other areas, particularly in the mental health areas where patients under compulsory care\u2014[Interruption] Perhaps the Minister would like to take a call and tell me what went behind this measure. I was not part of the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E It was before my time in Parliament. Also, I still have not had an answer to my query about the term \u201Crehabilitation\u201D. It is all very well for the Minister to sit there and pass comments to other members of the Committee, yet she is not happy to stand up and answer valid queries that, I think, should be clarified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EMy concern is about the spending of health dollars. I was about to say that in the compulsory care of people with a mental illness, the patients are able at every step of the way to appeal the process and use district inspectors to represent them when, in fact, the doctors presenting the other point of view usually do not have a lawyer representing them. Yet the money that is used for that comes out of the health budget. It comes out of the individual district health board budget for the appeal process, when the intention is that the money is to be spent on treating those patients, and not on legal bills. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EClause 14(2)(a)(i) raises a similar concern, and all I am asking for is clarification of that small provision. I do not object at all to subclauses 2(a)(ii) and (iii); they seem to be perfectly reasonable. But when somebody who is able to speak English perfectly well says he or she would prefer to be heard in another language, I just wonder why that is acceptable. Perhaps the Minister could answer that question for me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022935d62f652ed4d32ba3920d3bf8db54b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022935d62f652ed4d32ba3920d3bf8db54b\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 2 deals with principles and general duties. Once again, I cannot help but note in clause 11 the term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D. I think it is referred to four times in about six lines\u2014which is double the number of words we need. It is good to see the Minister in the chair, and she may be able to take a call and explain the genesis of the somewhat redundant and wordy term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D, rather than the use of the term that most people in New Zealand\u2014in fact, the world\u2014know, which is \u201Cpatient\u201D, to mean a person who is receiving care or treatment. I would be very interested to hear what the Minister does have to say in that regard. She is nodding her head, so, as she is one of the leaders at the forefront of the politically correct brigade, it will be very interesting to hear what she has to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI will go on to clause 12, \u201CPrinciples governing decisions affecting children and young persons\u201D. Those principles do, indeed, seem thorough, and on the whole I concur with them. There is the point that wherever possible, the family, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family group of a child or young person should participate in the making of decisions affecting that child or young person, and, accordingly, regard should be had to the views of the family, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, iwi, and family group. There is absolutely no doubt about that. The tragedy down in the South Island arose when there was a lack of involvement by the family. It was simply not listened to, and a subsequent tragedy occurred when the young man killed his parent in that situation. So undoubtedly that is highly important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBut one of the questions that, hopefully, the Minister will take a call on is how, practically, she will ensure that those ideals are lived up to in reality. How does one provide the service, realistically? The Minister was one of a group that, in the 1990s, called shrilly, time and time again, for appropriate mental health services and facilities. Yet the reality of today is that we hear every day of the absolute mental health crisis in New Zealand and the lack of facilities. It is, indeed, an example of the forethought of Wyatt Creech, who brought this bill into the House, that provision was made for $50 million for both this bill and the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7) so that there would be money earmarked to ensure that appropriate facilities were there. However, in reality we do not see that, and I would be very interested if the Minister would take a call on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI move on to clause 13, \u201CPowers to be exercised with proper respect for cultural identity and personal beliefs\u201D. Again, it is fine and appropriate to say that it is vital that proceedings are conducted with proper respect for the care recipient\u2019s cultural and ethnic identity, language, and religious or ethical beliefs. I remember very well when I was a consultant at one of the hospitals and a woman from Iraq came in. She was a doctor, and there happened to be a senior doctor from Iraq in attendance. As a male gynaecologist I deferred to that individual to take the woman\u2019s history and carry out the treatment\u2014something I normally do not do. As it happened, the Iraqi senior doctor said the woman should be taken down to an operating theatre, but just beforehand she called me to say that she was caught up in the emergency department and to ask me to do the operation. I went in, only to find that a totally inappropriate operation had been ordered and the woman was anaesthetised. That operation was ordered by an overseas senior doctor whom I had organised to look after another Iraqi doctor. So, in practice, the reality of ensuring that cultural sensitivity does take place is very difficult.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fbb77d469336479eb69cd21af7bd9c82\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fbb77d469336479eb69cd21af7bd9c82\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I want to take a call in order to ask the Minister to take a call with regard to clause 12, \u201CPrinciples governing decisions affecting children and young persons\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e9fb0bbbbf24de1b17d620348636bc2\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Chairperson. My point of order is with regard to Standing Order 35(1): \u201CA party must inform the Speaker of\u2014(b) the identity of its leader and other office holders,\u201D. We are led to believe that there has been a change in the leadership of one political party, and we ask whether the Chair or the Speaker has been advised. Could you confirm that the leader of the National Party has changed this afternoon? I think members are entitled to know.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022527b1ebeac774fe396c45e10823b0684\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4f4ea125e5c4ee887fe86afcb3e0c95\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: If Mr Tamihere is trying to be humorous he should learn how to be humorous. People like me can be humorous but some people cannot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe issue that concerns me is that when I look at clause 12 I think it is probably a take-off. Someone who is more familiar with the bill than I am may be able to help me. The structure in the clause is the same sort of structure we have with the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, for example. I guess it is our consultation structure. I imagine that if the wording is not exactly the same it is probably similar to the wording we have in other legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI come back to the point I made earlier on in Part 1 about how we will provide services and facilities to make sure that consultation happens. If the Minister is going to be relying on the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, for example, to make sure that those consultations, etc. take place with families, wh\u0101nau, hap\u016B, and iwi, then I have serious concerns. We all know, both currently and indeed from history going back over a number of months and years, that the service is not so flash. So the Minister might care to take a call to assure the Committee that she has in mind some other department, organisation, or system to provide the service set down here under clause 12. We want to be assured of that because, as the Minister knows, we are supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa4d586fd3284d5393764f0d7bcfd4ba\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b52f0162d0514eec87012c033698e035\u0022\u003EMajor-General Imad Maayar \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022 data-id=\u0022d6ca464655574971871958db25976201\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d6ca464655574971871958db25976201\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing members that Major-General Imad Maayar, a member of the Jordanian Parliament, is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that he be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227b50c72abd304da0abfb0ad5913e83f2\u0022\u003EIntellectual Disability (Compulsory Careand rehabilitation) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227327a11bcb954d90a5416739cb074f7d\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000365\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ee4b395fd8544ee69d179b048d25abf5\u0022\u003EPart 2  Principles and general duties (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022930370e8f87343498c33118a336d8248\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022930370e8f87343498c33118a336d8248\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (National\u2014Northland):\u003C/span\u003E I know that the members in the Chamber, over lunch, were worried that I would not take the extra 2 minutes, and they have come down just to encourage me to do so. I am pleased to be able to share with them the fount of knowledge I have on this particular issue. What is really important is that I know that this Minister, having listened and gained an understanding of the issue I was raising before dinner, will have gone away and spoken with her officials, and she will probably want to take the next call to answer the questions. I am sure; I myself am absolutely convinced, as, I think, are members on this side\u2014but I can see, from the look on the faces, that the others over there are not quite so convinced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c7e339b0e0c499987c6b4563b2f1a31\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: The member is probably backing Bill English, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022197d0e103ec64ade8a556f29eaff479f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! The whole of New Zealand is. That is the good thing. The whole of New Zealand is backing Bill English as the next Prime Minister. Let us get that very clear. Life is just getting better and better\u2014but back to the bill before the Chairman brings me back to the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThere is a point I want to make about clause 12, and I was asking the Minister before lunch whether we have the resources to carry out this sort of gathering\u2014the discussions, the family group conferences, etc. If we will be relying on the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services to provide the service, then I say that we are in trouble. If the Minister has some other idea on how we are going to provide the service, then that is fantastic, and I hope she will assure the Committee of the system that she will provide. This is a very important part of this legislation. The families have a right to know what is going on. They have a right to be able to discuss amongst themselves the things that they want to see for the people we are dealing with. They have a right to be consulted and involved. Of course, the individuals themselves also do. It is good that we are setting this system up, having taken it from previous legislation, but we want to make sure that it works. We want to be absolutely assured that some of the resources, the taxpayer funding that the Government is putting aside, will be spent on making sure that this service and this facility is not only just written here in the legislation but is real and meaningful. Otherwise, quite honestly, we have wasted our time in discussing and debating and passing this legislation. I hope the Minister will take the next call, and can give the Committee the assurance that she has something in mind to allow us to have these services delivered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u002228489c90bc384ced896b2db5a87cecde\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002228489c90bc384ced896b2db5a87cecde\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002230d1daca48df48e1aca5375e74a01d92\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000372\u0022\u003EPart 2 agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002261add92acc6f47b39e72202d416ccf42\u0022\u003EPart 3 Needs assessments and care and rehabilitation plans\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4b3357586b7455692bd44b86251e6cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4b3357586b7455692bd44b86251e6cb\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3 discusses needs assessment and care and rehabilitation plans, assessment and care and rehabilitation needs, care and rehabilitation plans, and case conferences. The purpose of it is to ensure that when somebody with an intellectual disability ends up before the courts, or has behaviour that looks like they may end up before the courts\u2014they may engage in what is considered criminal behaviour, breaking the laws of the land even though they do not understand the implications of that because of their intellectual disability\u2014assessment, care, and rehabilitation needs can be met. The behaviour of a great many of those people can be managed if appropriate care and support is put around them. Often people get angry only when they cannot understand what is happening in their environment, and they are frustrated. Appropriate management of behaviour can be achieved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIn this bill originally, there were two groups: those who had committed an offence and had broken the law, and the non-offender group. It was felt that people like David Stephens were in the non-offender group initially, and if a care plan had been able to be put around him then, and if he could have been contained in a secure environment, then he would not have gone on to the offender group. We had a lot of representation from disability groups on this issue. They stated that they did not feel we could put in that sort of obligation and take away the rights of somebody who has an intellectual disability, just because we think they might have behaviour that will cause them to break the law. It was felt that that was unacceptable, and that was taken out. But it has not stopped the needs assessment and care and rehabilitation plans being able to be implemented for people whom we think may develop in that way and not be able to be managed in a normal community environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe purpose of a needs assessment has been that every person who is a care recipient under an order under the Criminal Justice Act because they have committed an offence, will have a care plan decided by the people who will be caring for them. That involves talking to the caregivers and also to the families involved in the person\u2019s care. A needs assessment looks at the behaviour a person has had, what is driving that sort of behaviour, and what one can do to provide a care and rehabilitation plan. We did have a debate before about whether \u201Crehabilitation\u201D is the right term, because rehabilitation means, to a lot of people, the individual changing behaviour, whereas, actually, rehabilitation plans are more about changing the behaviour of people around someone with an intellectual disability so that they do not get into a lose-lose situation, and so that they do not get into a corner where their only out is to hit somebody. The reason we need specialised carers to be able to look after people who have an intellectual disability and also have committed an offence is that they need to know how to manage anger. They need to know how to manage someone who is frustrated, who may not be able to communicate, and who will act out if they are unhappy. There does need to be those people who are specifically trained to be able to manage this type of care. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI am pleased to say that this bill was a National Government bill, when we were in Government, and it had money with it. Those 24-hour intensive care plans and the training of care professionals have all happened because of National. We put the money with this bill to make sure that we did not just lump a whole lot of compliance costs out there into the community for those that are already caring. We put in money to develop services. The one thing that has not developed fast enough\u2014probably because it has taken 4 years for this bill to reach this point today\u2014is inpatient care. We do not have the inpatient care facilities\u2014the really secure facilities. I know there was one being built at Porirua Hospital to contain people who have an intellectual disability and severe behavioural abnormalities that bring them before the courts. I believe that the Mason unit in Auckland is also having one developed. It is important that we get on with those, because, although small in number, there are those with an intellectual disability who do absolutely wreak havoc\u2014as we see if we look at the Ryder case\u2014in the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u00224e78050aa4e64c638949a7a0a6fc21fe\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e78050aa4e64c638949a7a0a6fc21fe\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E Again, I acknowledge the fine efforts of my colleague Dr Lynda Scott, and I acknowledge Wyatt Creech, who introduced this legislation in 1999. They made sure that funding was put aside for that purpose, and it is absolutely critical that we do have people who are trained in this field. It is vitally important that diagnoses and needs assessments are done appropriately and specifically to the individual. That is hugely important to the parents and to the welfare guardians of people with intellectual disabilities who are being assessed within the ambit of this bill. Funding is absolutely critical in ensuring that we do have the trained personnel and the specialists necessary to make those assessments. One person has made a substantial submission in that regard and has some concern about the need to ensure that there is ongoing funding for people such as service providers and caregivers, and to make sure that they are appropriately trained and can handle those difficult behaviours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003ECertainly, there needs to be a secure environment for people like Barry Ryder who need to have an eye kept on them for 24 hours. The moment one takes one\u2019s eye off someone like Barry Ryder he will reoffend. That was the opinion of the judge and that was the concern of many of the parents of victims who were so traumatised by him when he went out into the community. His assessment was done, and unfortunately at that time, there were not the provisions that this legislation will provide. It is absolutely imperative that we have the funding necessary to train people to do those appropriate needs assessments, and this bill will certainly make sure that people like Barry Ryder will not be out in our communities and will not pose a danger either to themselves or, more particularly in Barry Ryder\u2019s case, to others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EParents of 45-year-old persons who are like children and are 6 foot 2 and incredibly strong will also be comforted by knowing that their needs assessment of their children will be accurate, and that they will have the care and attention that is needed. Although the families are required to be involved with all of the assessments, etc. I did not see very clearly where welfare guardians are incorporated in the legislation, except in clause 21, which states: \u201CDuring the needs assessment process, the co-ordinator must make all reasonable efforts ...\u201D, and I just wonder what that means. I would hope that they would go to the nth degree to make every single effort to ensure that welfare guardians are contacted and involved in the needs assessment process, because they have a particular understanding and knowledge of the care recipient\u2014the new term\u2014and it is absolutely imperative that they be involved in that needs assessment process. They are particularly concerned about the ongoing care and protection of their charges, if they are not their biological children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI also draw members\u2019 attention to clause 23, \u201CCultural assessment\u201D. Another member of the House, Stephen Franks, expressed some concern about cultural assessment, and I think there could have been more appropriate wording. Clause 23(2) states: \u201CIf, following the assessment under subsection (1), the co-ordinator considers that the care recipient is Maori \u2026\u201D\u2014 more appropriate wording would have been \u201Cconsiders that the care recipient is of particular ethnicity, and the care recipient agrees with that assessment, the co-ordinator must try to obtain the views of any suitable person\u201D\u2014rather than just any suitable M\u0101ori person\u2014\u201Cor organisation concerned with, or interested in, the care of persons who have an intellectual disability from within that particular ethnicity.\u201D It is important that we look at the range of ethnicity that exists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022fc75df91729d470097e29ddbabb29aff\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fc75df91729d470097e29ddbabb29aff\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Many parts of Part 3 I would like to support. I feel they will make a positive contribution to the care of the intellectually disabled, particularly in relation to compulsory care. I refer in particular to clause 21, which states that when discussing the needs assessment, the coordinator is to consult with persons concerned with the welfare of the care recipient. That is much needed. The families must be involved, as some of my National Party colleagues have pointed out. Clause 21 also refers to the need to consult with the welfare guardians of the patient\u2014I must say I still have a great deal of difficulty with the term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D, which does not exactly roll off one\u2019s tongue. But the intention of that clause is, I think, very good. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EBut I would like to speak particularly to clause 23, and I thank Sandra Goudie for mentioning it now. In his second reading speech, Stephen Franks talked at length about the cultural assessment aspects within this bill; and clause 23 brings out the point I want to make particularly. Sandra Goudie did read out subclause (1): \u201CThe co-ordinator must try to identify the care recipient\u2019s culture, ethnicity, language, and any religious or ethical beliefs.\u201D It is very sad in this day and age that we have to legislate for things of this nature. Coordinators, particularly clinicians, have a lot of training now in cultural aspects of care, and many\u2014most, in fact, now\u2014have incorporated those features into the assessments that they do on all patients, not just the intellectually disabled ones. Certainly in the area of mental illness, this is now common practice, and I find it extremely sad to think that we need to specifically spell out that we must take into account factors that might be very important in people\u2019s lives. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI refer now to subclauses (2) and (3) of clause 23, and I ask the Minister whether she could tell us\u2014I am not living in great hope, because she seems to be studiously ignoring any other requests I have made for an explanation\u2014why in fact M\u0101ori have been singled out in this clause. Subclause (1) mentions different cultures and ethnicities, but in subclauses (2) and (3) only M\u0101ori are singled out. Is there something we are missing? Is it only M\u0101ori who actually have cultural expectations and important cultural aspects that should be considered? What about Samoans and other Pacific Islanders? What about Asians? Counties-Manukau now has patient advocates and interpreters for the Asian communities. Do Asians not count when it comes to intellectual disability? Are their needs not as great as anybody else\u2019s? I would like to know why they have not been specified. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESandra Goudie made a very good point. She said that ethnicity should be referred to generally, not by a specific ethnic group or breakdown. That is a very good point. As a result of that, I just cannot accept this clause as it stands, and I have put forward an amendment to have it omitted from the bill completely. If it were reworded the way Sandra Goudie explained it, perhaps it should be included, and maybe she would like to put forward an amendment. I would have found that much more acceptable, but if this clause is to stand as it currently is, then ACT New Zealand will not be supporting it\u2014we will ask for it to be omitted\u2014and we will not support this part if in fact it stays in the bill. I say that with sadness, because I feel that other clauses in this part do deal with valid concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI ask all parties to think about legislation of all sorts that has been brought before the House of late. Cultural assessment of all sorts has become a trend with this Government. It is becoming a very big part of its bills, and also we are seeing the specific singling out of M\u0101ori. We should in this country have one law for all people, not race-based law. What we are seeing here is, again, a perpetuation of the push towards the promotion, the singling out, of separate ethnic groups within our society. What that does in effect is cause separatism, not a united New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022637c08f229bb436992585078a59e08f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022637c08f229bb436992585078a59e08f0\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Part 3, \u201CNeeds assessment and care and rehabilitation plans\u201D, is certainly one of the very important parts of this bill, which, by and large, I do support. The select committee put great emphasis on rehabilitation. That was explicitly stated in the commentary because, members said, during the hearing of submissions, examples were brought to the attention of the committee, of people with challenging behaviour, which often reflected poor management and uncertain environment: \u201CIf the person is not receiving proper care they will possibly become a danger to themselves and/or other people.\u201D Clearly, this part of the bill is extremely important. The commentary goes on to state: \u201CWe believe there should be explicit recognition of the importance of rehabilitation, where possible, to ensure that people do not receive custodial care only.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EClause 15, \u201CNeeds assessments required for certain care recipients\u201D, is fairly prescriptively spelt out. There is always the great danger in this sort of legislation of being overly prescriptive, and I want shortly to take up the point of the cultural assessment provisions, because that is prescription gone berserk in this politically correct world. Once again, this part has been infiltrated by the term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D. Most people throughout the world who look to the English language to contain relatively simple, clear meaning are perplexed as to why we have to double up the verbiage and make it much more obscure, but, oh no, the Labour Government insists on that sort of somewhat inane and totally unnecessary nomenclature. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I absolutely agree with clause 19, \u201CMaximum period for needs assessment and preparation of care and rehabilitation plan\u201D. It is good to see a time limit put on that sort of thing, which is so clearly important.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b1d121dc26848e0bd0602b097074226\u0022\u003EHon Rick Barker\u003C/span\u003E: What\u2019s the time limit for Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e907c437241e4f53b77ae2dba944da08\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: There was an interjection by the member for Tukituki over there. Is the member speaking specifically about the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill? I certainly hope he is. Clause 19(1) states: \u201CThe process of assessing the needs of a care recipient and preparing his or her care and rehabilitation plan must be completed as quickly as practicable.\u201D Fortunately, subclause (2) states: \u201CThe process referred to ... may not continue for longer than 30 days\u201D. I wonder whether the Minister will take a call and say what will happen if it is not completed within 30 days. It is very important to have time limits explicitly put into legislation like this, because, in reality, it is over that period of initial assessment and preparation of a plan that some disastrous and avoidable tragedies have occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAgain, one wonders why, on a bill that has been talked about since 1997 and that came into the House in 1999, and is finally before the Committee under urgency at the end of 2003, the Labour Party has suddenly come to its senses and realised that time limits are important. If only it could have done so with regard to the bill itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ETo go on to clause 23, \u201CCultural assessment\u201D, I cannot but agree wholeheartedly with the points that both Sandra Goudie and Heather Roy have made, in terms of the extraordinary length to which the Labour Government is determined to try to legislate in such areas as culture, ethnicity, language, and any religious or ethical beliefs. It seems to me that we live in a day and age\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022a93ad9dda6ff4a88a84942be544a640d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a93ad9dda6ff4a88a84942be544a640d\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 160 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to Part 3 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of Heather Roy to clause 23 be agreed to:\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003Eto omit this clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002242edf500f8844d898b8786d69abcdd28\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00223968394ff1cc4eb7a52c9224bf254ec9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00225ac5e68ecbf7493da4a3d600a5e2dd81\u0022\u003EPart 4  Compulsory care and rehabilitation of inmates and former special patients\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00223ba90642298a4a0da5cef3a642a72385\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ba90642298a4a0da5cef3a642a72385\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Clause 29 provides for the assessment of inmates and former special patients. Subclause (1) states: \u201CA superintendent of a prison may apply to the co-ordinator to have an inmate assessed under this subpart, if the superintendent has reasonable grounds for believing that the inmate has an intellectual disability.\u201D One of the problems in that is talking about people who have an intellectual disability, people who have a mental illness, and people who have committed offences. Those situations can all go together: just because somebody has an intellectual disability does not mean that that person cannot have a mental illness, and vice versa. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003ESometimes that makes it very difficult to determine the level of care, and where that person should most appropriately be placed. Some people end up in prison, and it is not really recognised that they have an intellectual disability until they get into that strongly supervised environment. At that point, the superintendent can ask for an appropriate assessment of those prisoners, so that they can get the appropriate level of care. Until this bill is passed, it is not possible to put someone from a prison into an intellectual-disability, compulsory-care situation, because we need the legislative framework to be able to do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E There has also been concern for those who have been in the Kimberley Centre and Braemar Hospital, which were psychopaedic hospitals, where a lot of children have been placed, who then grew into adults. Having those people placed in the community has been a very slow process, because the hard end of the process has been reached\u2014placing those who have very high, complex needs and challenging behaviours. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIt is good to see this bill here today, because the Health Committee reported it back in April 2001. It could be said that that is only 2\u00BD years, but it is a very long time to wait for legislation so that the services can be developed around it and facilities built to care for people with behavioural problems bad enough to land them before the courts or in prison. The Rt Hon Wyatt Creech, who was Minister of Health at the time this bill was promoted and during the first stages of its passage through Parliament, earmarked $20 million for its development. The Health Funding Authority\u2014which, to its detriment, this Government merrily scrapped; instead, setting up 21 district health boards, which are all running over budget, and developing 21 different levels of care throughout the country\u2014initiated a service development process that included the development of best-practice indicators for the specialist support of people with high and complex behavioural needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThat is what needs to happen. There needs to be specialists who can arrange appropriate assessments for people who are considered to have an intellectual disability, and, if necessary, ensure that the proposed care recipient stays within a facility. If a compulsory-care order is to be imposed, there needs to be a determination, when an assessment and examination is undertaken, that the person has an intellectual disability. Under clause 32, on finishing the assessment of the proposed care recipient, the specialist assessor, or assessors, sends a report of the results through to the courts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EIt is important that we understand the differences between those who actually do the assessments, and who the most appropriate people are to do them. If the condition is a mental health one, then it should be a psychiatrist, because the appropriate level of care for people who have committed offences is an appropriate specialist. There was quite a bit of debate in the select committee about the most appropriate people to do assessments of intellectual disability, and psychologists were considered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022efb315a5f7cc4d51b5f84ec3f6a0014d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efb315a5f7cc4d51b5f84ec3f6a0014d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E Clearly, Part 4 is again getting into the machinery and teeth of this bill, because it deals with the compulsory care and rehabilitation of inmates and former special patients. I note that clause 29 refers particularly to \u201CApplication for assessment of inmate and former special patients\u201D. I am once again reminded of the work done by Dr Sandy Simpson, one of New Zealand\u2019s most eminent psychiatrists, back in 1999. He really pointed out for the first time the enormity of the problem of psychiatric patients and those with intellectual disabilities\u2014or a combination of both\u2014within our penal system. Unfortunately, it is a very real problem that neither the mental health facilities available in New Zealand nor its prison system have been able to cope with at any stage. It is a huge problem, it does require focus, and maybe the Minister will take a call and for a moment outline what she is planning to do to bring this issue forward, because it is a very serious problem for New Zealand, and certainly requires to be dealt with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHowever, Part 4 does attempt to provide a mechanism whereby inmates or former special patients can apply for assessment. It is a fairly rigorous process, and by its very nature it must be. In fact, every application under clause 29 must be accompanied by a certificate from a person who is either a medical practitioner or a psychologist, and who has examined the person to be assessed within 3 days immediately before the date of application. Again, the time sequence is absolutely all-important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI am a little concerned in that I understood earlier on that the Royal Australasian College of Psychiatrists did advocate that there be either two psychiatrists or\u2014in the case of an intellectually disabled individual\u2014a psychologist, making sure that the findings are appropriately peer-reviewed, but I do not know whether this provision actually ensures that that happens. A lot of this assessment work can be extremely hard to be objective in, and I think there is considerable use in having peer review and quality control mechanisms in place all the time to ensure that these assessments are carried out expertly and also within time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI refer to clause 34 where, once again, \u201CTiming for, and place of, assessment\u201D is emphasised. In fact, the assessment of a proposed care recipient must take place within 7 days after the receipt of the application under section 29. In many respects, it would be better to emphasise that the assessment should take place just as soon as possible, and not necessarily within 7 days. As I mentioned earlier, with the practical delays that inevitably occur from time to time, preventable tragedies have often occurred. Rather than putting it the way it is\u2014\u201Cwithin 7 days\u201D\u2014I think there would be some sense in having those time limits very much directed towards efficiency and expediency throughout. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note in clause 36, \u201CThe fact that an inmate who is charged with, or convicted of, an offence is also a proposed care recipient or a care recipient\u201D\u2014and, my word, there are those two terms again; four words for the price of two; they just seem to pop up all over the place with this politically correct Government\u2014\u201Cdoes not\u2014(a) prevent the inmate from being taken to\u2014(i) the trial or hearing of that offence; or (ii) any sentencing for that offence;\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 160 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to Part 4 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Part 4 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00223ec3fd59128f4cf49ca73afb1d83e6d0\u0022\u003EPart 5  Status and rights of care recipients\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00225980a6c05ea44f759723ccaa2c54029c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225980a6c05ea44f759723ccaa2c54029c\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E Under Part 5, \u201CStatus and rights of care recipients\u201D, we are looking at the requirements to accept care. We are talking about taking away the rights of somebody who is being compulsorily cared for and entrusted to a care manager, so it is important that care recipients are consumers under the Code of Health and Disability Services Consumers\u2019 Rights. Just because those people are under a compulsory treatment order does not mean that they do not have the same rights as any other patient to be treated with care and respect, and given an appropriate level of services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EMany clients with high and complex behavioural support needs may be able to be managed in the community. The aim has always been to have the least restrictive environment for those patients. However, we know that there are some who need to be in a restricted environment, so it is a matter of getting the balance right\u2014assessing when a care recipient needs to be under much tighter and more restrictive care, and when he or she, with support services, can return to a community setting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe see that balance between the rights of individuals and their families, and the rights of the community to be protected, in the area of mental health, as well. It is always a balancing act to try to get those rights in the right balance. Part 5 talks about the rights of care recipients, but we must not forget the rights of the community to be protected. The Barry Ryder case, of course, was an extreme example, in which young boys\u2019 lives were tragically ruined by one person who needed to be in a restricted environment. That is why we need to see this bill progressing today, and I will be pleased when we have the third reading and it becomes law. However, people under compulsory-care orders have a right to medical treatment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWe talked quite a bit in the Health Committee about how somebody could liaise with his or her family. The fact is that there will not be a huge number of those sorts of care facilities for people who need a restricted environment, so people are likely to be cared for in a place away from their families. We talked about their rights to use the telephone, to legal advice, to company, and to receive information from their families. Those people also have the right to communicate with others, whether that is the Health and Disability Commissioner, district inspectors, their own lawyers, their own doctors, or specialist assessors from whom they have sought a second opinion about their condition. The care recipient will probably not be the person asking for that\u2014it is much more likely to be his or her family. It is also important that the people caring for someone in a restricted environment have the ability to manage their care, so this bill involves the rights of the carers as well as the rights of the individuals cared for. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThere are sizable specific powers over care recipients in this section. In very specific situations, they can be put into isolation if their behaviour deteriorates out of control and they are a danger to themselves or others. A care manager may isolate care recipients if it is necessary to prevent those persons doing themselves, or others, harm. But there will be strict guidelines on how that can happen. Clause 61 talks about the restraint of a care recipient. Restraint must be used only on very rare occasions, but sometimes it is needed, and a care manager may restrain a care recipient if it is necessary to prevent that person endangering the health and safety of himself or herself, seriously damaging property, or seriously compromising the care and well-being of others. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022 data-id=\u0022781b2cf4cb374c04a1f2d3dd75b4ab2b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022781b2cf4cb374c04a1f2d3dd75b4ab2b\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE (National\u2014Coromandel):\u003C/span\u003E I turn to clauses 63 and 64, which refer to the placement of care recipients. As we have already covered Part 4, I remind members that care recipients can be placed within a mental facility if no other facility is available for them at the time. That needs to be recognised, because if the Ministry of Health also accepts responsibility for removing people from safe care, it must also admit responsibility for the outcome. So if there are no purpose-built or professionally staffed facilities other than mental health facilities, those are the facilities that will have to accommodate care recipients. It is to be hoped that we will have an adequate number of facilities available for the purpose that this bill intends. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would now like to draw members\u2019 attention to clause 65, which refers to when a care manager may grant leave. This is where it starts to get a little bit confusing in respect of the definitions for care recipient and special care recipient, which are used quite a lot in the legislation. It would seem that the definitions are not too dissimilar. The care manager may grant leave for a 2-week period. They can go on holiday. I look at the case of Barry Ryder and I am thinking: are we going to send Barry Ryder on holiday? It would certainly have to be a supervised holiday, because it would be absolutely atrocious to give people like Barry Ryder a 2-week holiday. I can see clause 65 being the area that could cause us some problems. There could be a failure in the system that could cause us problems, and more of the sorts of things that happened with people like Barry Ryder. As we are aware, and as I have mentioned previously on a number of occasions, the judge said that Barry Ryder was likely to reoffend, and, clearly, whenever he went out into the community without supervision for any period of time, he went out to reoffend. He could not help himself. He was not a person who could be rehabilitated to any degree, in order to provide the necessary level of safety and comfort for the community. So clause 65, \u201CCare manager may grant leave\u201D, is a concern. It is to be hoped that before that leave is granted, a substantial amount of consultation will take place with all parties, including the welfare guardian. I am sure that there will be some concern about that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EThe Minister may also authorise leave for special care recipients. Again, while I am sure all due care would be taken, I see that as an area where there may be a substantial shortfall, and where the real close care and security of not only the care recipient but also the public at large could be put severely at risk. We have seen that in the case of Barry Ryder. He was supposed to have been monitored and supervised, but he was not monitored and supervised to the degree necessary, and he offended to quite a horrific degree. So I think it is absolutely vital that in making any of those determinations about leave\u2014where the care manager is going to grant leave for whatever purpose\u2014cognisance is given to the absolute safety of all the persons involved, be they the care recipient, the service providers, the caregivers, or the public at large. That is absolutely vital. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003EI would like to go back to the placement of care recipients. It is to be hoped that there will be sufficient accommodation for care recipients. We are closing down a lot of institutions\u2014such places as the Kimberley Centre. We can see that Kimberley has deteriorated to quite a degree, but I understand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228525af7760b94513ba5399e11f615086\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Deliberately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282881958a1d746e88cac6da5208f4038\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, deliberately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c11b8342ef3849829bfdeba4c3ada6c9\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Deferred maintenance.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225f8c78b-f301-4aca-a936-366f00a26bc9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e5f452031564a1a8561cc226dbb217a\u0022\u003ESANDRA GOUDIE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! But when we look at Kimberley, its grounds, and its environment, we see that it really is a community within itself. That, I think, is a vision, and it could be a really good vision for a secure environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022746ed3c69af14020b6c777e144974efa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022746ed3c69af14020b6c777e144974efa\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I have a very specific concern with this part, which I have just picked up. I was not on the Health Committee and I have not been in the debate until very recently. I refer members to clause 57(2), because I have some real concern with that provision. I think we have a problem that has been overlooked, and I ask the Minister in the chair to consider it. Subclause (2) states: \u201CIf there are reasonable grounds for believing that the receipt by, or the dispatch on behalf of, a care recipient of any written communication or other item could be detrimental to the interests and care of the care recipient or of other persons, the care manager may direct that the communication or item be checked; but a direction to check communications or items sent to the care recipient requires the approval of the co-ordinator.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E That is fair enough. I think that is a very appropriate measure. What really concerns me is subclause (3), because it states: \u201CSubsection (2) does not apply to a written communication or other item sent by, or on behalf of, or addressed to, any lawyer of the care recipient.\u201D My point is that we understand what is intended here. It is very important that the patient, or care recipient, has the right to communicate with a lawyer, but it could well be suspected that the care recipient wanted to cause the lawyer harm, and, under the way this is worded, we could not check on the item. We could not do that search. I am sorry if this is\u2014 \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2374349ac1548518779d7e2480ec91c\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The lawyer of the care recipient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f4c6c0f2119414fb2958dab475e4c00\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, it says that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c7c6b934ed2482a9979fdc9319ff8b6\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Any lawyer of the care recipient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc29f67209e347aea1732ed2a9bc5fa0\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that is right. It could well be that the care recipient had malicious intent to the lawyer. That is not an uncommon situation. It could well be that the institution suspected it, yet, under this bill, the item could not be checked prior to dispatch. Perhaps the Minister could explain what is intended. Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but, at first glance, to me there seems to be a loophole that is quite serious and needs reconsideration. That is the concern I have, and the main reason I took this call was to make sure that we are not passing, with all best intentions, something that would be very unhelpful and inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 160 in the name of Hon Ruth Dyson to Part 5 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EPart 5 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u0022fa5bbf3863e54eb3b9d9bb2efceabc0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fa5bbf3863e54eb3b9d9bb2efceabc0f\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder, now that we have dealt with the substantive part of the bill and the rest is more the machinery part, whether the Committee might consider giving leave for us to consider the balance of the parts as one. I seek leave for that to happen, and if members object then, of course, they can do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224431d95e564b4925969a6405c52de3f5\u0022\u003EThe CHAIRPERSON (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course of action being taken regarding Parts 6 to 11? There is no objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222cfedc5eda5347f386c675fcc25b4697\u0022\u003EParts 6 to 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022c6cef7dbf7d7408c881a3019283cf91c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c6cef7dbf7d7408c881a3019283cf91c\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E In speaking to Parts 6 to 11, although the substantial part of the bill may have been dealt with, these other parts of the bill are pretty important. They deal with reviews of conditions and the status of care recipients. Part 7, \u201CInspections and inquiries\u201D, is a hugely important part in terms of quality control, and also deals with complaints about breaches of rights, and inquiries by district inspectors. Then we go on to Part 8, \u201CAuthority to take and detain care recipients\u201D. Subpart 2, \u201CInquiry by High Court Judge\u201D\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022411fd262a63a4e08ae0fd85d5238a208\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: It is Subpart 2 in Part 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b6687083f04770b9f910851867462c\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, that is quite right. I do not want to be too tedious in the way I go through this, but I point out that Part 7 is in two parts\u2014Subpart 1, \u201CInspections, investigations, and inquiries by district inspectors\u201D, and Subpart 2, as the Minister quite rightly pointed out, deals with inquiries by a High Court judge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EPart 8 is \u201CAuthority to take and detain care recipients\u201D, \u201CAuthority to detain under court orders\u201D, and \u201CAuthority to take care recipients who escape or disobey court orders\u201D\u2014I would like to make some comments about that in a moment. Part 9 has mainly procedural provisions, such as which court to go to, and it is about the jurisdiction of the Family Court, which is all-important in many respects. Part 10 refers to \u201CRelationships with other Acts\u201D, because this bill\u2014along with the Criminal Justice Amendment Bill (No 7)\u2014is integrally related to a variety of other Acts, including orders under the Protection of Personal and Property Rights Act, orders under the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act, and certain orders under the Criminal Justice Act, which prevail over orders under this Act. There are a lot of interrelated connections, all inextricably linked up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EPart 11 refers to \u201CAdministration\u201D. One would hope that administration under this Labour Government would be efficient and have timelines with it, but sadly, as we have seen right throughout, in the very way that this bill was brought to Parliament\u2014it has \u201CLegislative History, 5 October 1999\u201D, on the back, and here we are on 21 October 2003\u2014the Labour Government has allowed this highly important, very necessary legislation to wallow, then suddenly, under urgency, it has finally brought it before the House. So there is some number of very important parts that we are taking as one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to comment on the \u201CAuthority to take and detain care recipients\u201D in Part 8, and on what was required, because there are some very important implications in clause 109, \u201CAuthority to admit and detain under orders\u201D. It states: \u201CA care manager has authority\u2014(a) to admit a care recipient to a facility in accordance with the care recipient\u2019s court order or a notice of designation given by the co-ordinator under section 63(2); and (b) to take all reasonable steps to detain that care recipient in the facility during the period the designation is in force.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EClearly, care managers have to take all the reasonable and possible steps they can. From time to time there is the difficulty of the facilities not being able to contain people. Clause 110 deals with the \u201CMeaning of a care recipient who has escaped\u201D. That is a practical matter, because from time to time they do escape, no matter how hard the vigilance. That leads to some very difficult reciprocal actions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u00229376c0eeb0544afcaad381fc07904d9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229376c0eeb0544afcaad381fc07904d9a\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to put these last parts together, because they really do cover the administration of the Act and the details of what happens when someone has been placed under a compulsory care order. Interesting terms were developed for the bill, such as that of the \u201Cspecialist assessor\u201D, and the \u201Cco-ordinator\u201D. The coordinator has to send copies of certificates to certain persons, and needs to notify everybody about what happens to a care recipient when a compulsory care order changes or expires, when somebody goes on holiday, or when there is a variation to the order. There will need to be variations to compulsory care orders, because people who may have become out of control in their behaviour\u2014due to environmental issues or to other things happening in their lives\u2014may settle down with appropriate care, and changes will then be sought to compulsory care orders. The coordinator and the court will have regard to a specialist assessor\u2019s certificate, so a specialist assessor will come and reassess somebody.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EOf course, the person\u2019s intellectual disability is not going to change. The situation is not like that of mental health, where somebody becomes unwell and, with appropriate care, treatment, and medication, can become well again. In the situation of intellectual disability we are talking about challenging and complex behaviours. The issue is whether we can change behaviour, and therefore improve a situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI remember another patient whom I dealt with when I went to see his mum and dad. There seem to be quite a few cases where mothers and fathers have become elderly but have children they have looked after all their lives\u2014children who, because of their disabilities, remain children intellectually and continue to be in need of care. I will never forget going into that house. The mother had developed Alzheimer\u2019s dementia, and the quite elderly father was having a great deal of difficulty coping. They had a son\u2014who I think was about 52 at the time I met them, because his parents were in their 80s\u2014who had never been known to any support services at all. I walked into that situation, thinking: \u201COh my goodness!\u201D. That man could just dress himself and tie his shoelaces, but that was about it. The parents had never had any help, and he used to follow his father around, two steps behind. That is how the father coped. Everywhere that dad went, he went.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThat was fine in that situation, but then one of his parents went into care and the other parent died. That situation was very similar to the other I mentioned, but different in respect of which parent died first. When that man was put into a care facility in the community, people were incredibly intimidated because he would be two steps behind them. Of course, the women in the home became very upset because he followed them around so closely, and some of the carers became very upset. His behaviour had been conditioned by his parents as it was their way of coping, but it was very difficult to manage him in an ordinary care facility. There was a need for specialised education, support, and caring in this case, to make those around that man understand that he was not being intimidating or trying to upset them but just showing a conditioned behaviour. That is an example of some of the things we see.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAs a geriatrician I was asked to assess people in Ngawhatu Psychiatric Hospital. Those people who had intellectual disabilities had reached their 60s and 70s, and the hospital wanted to place them in rest home care. But some of the behaviours that had been conditioned by their many years of institutional care in psychiatric institutions proved totally inappropriate for a rest home situation. I remember one gentleman who, whenever he got really upset about anything, just picked up a chair and biffed it across the room. That was his way of getting attention in that environment, but it was certainly not very appropriate in any other environment\u2014especially a rest home environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EPeople with intellectual disabilities need specific care facilities in order for their behaviour to be managed. If that gentleman had picked up the chair and hit someone with it, he would have ended up before the courts and come under the provisions of this bill. In those situations, the status of special-care recipients must be clearly identified.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 160 in the name of the Hon Ruth Dyson to Parts 6 to 11 be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to, and Parts 6 to 11 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002268b90ab093414754b6275374734aa6fb\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u00225546b45e414b456daf238760250a5818\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225546b45e414b456daf238760250a5818\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for Disability Issues):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill be now read a third time. I thank members and past members for their contributions as the bill has passed through its various stages since first being introduced to the House in October 1999. In particular, I thank the members of the Health Committee, under the chairpersonship of Judy Keall, for their considered examination of all the issues in the bill, and for preparing the bill to be reported back to the House. I also acknowledge the Minister of the time, the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech, for introducing the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EUntil 1992, Part 7 of the Criminal Justice Act gave the courts the ability to consider offenders who have an intellectual disability under the Mental Health Act. Since 1992, the courts have not been able to do that, because of the legislative gap between the mental health legislation and the Criminal Justice Act. Having been properly excluded from the definition of \u201Cmental disorder\u201D, people with intellectual disabilities were also excluded from the coverage of Part 7 of the Criminal Justice Act. That meant they are currently liable to be treated inappropriately by the courts when they appear on criminal charges. These inappropriate placements include being sent to prison, being detained as special patients in mental health facilities, or receiving a non-custodial sentence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe Criminal Procedure (Mentally Impaired Persons) Bill is linked to this bill, as it provides the legal mechanism by which people with an intellectual disability who have been charged with, or convicted of, offences are diverted to the compulsory care system. With the passage of both bills, the legislative gap that has existed since 1992 will be closed, and the courts will be able to make appropriate dispositions that provide for the care and rehabilitation of people with intellectual disabilities who offend.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EFor the purposes of the bill, the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D is primarily based on one developed by the American Association for Mental Retardation. The association\u2019s definition has recently been updated, and the Supplementary Order Paper agreed to by the Committee of the whole House brings the bill\u2019s definition into line with that latest version. I would like particularly to commend the work of the Health Committee, which gave appropriate and very helpful consideration to improving that definition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe bill sets out the process for assessing people assumed to have an intellectual disability, with special assessors, provisions for second opinions, and the input of members of the person\u2019s family and community. There are three ways in which a person can become subject to the bill: through the criminal courts, through a prison manager, or through the director of the area mental health service. The Family Court can impose compulsory care under the bill only after completion of a needs assessment and a care and rehabilitation plan. The bill further provides for regular reviews and reports on the appropriateness of continued care, and people may be released from compulsory care in a number of ways, depending on how they first entered the system. The bill provides for two levels of care, either supervised or secure, based on the person\u2019s assessed risk. It contains a number of mechanisms to ensure that the rights of intellectually disabled people are protected, and, further, contains a number of statutory powers of compulsion to require the person to comply with his or her care order. These include the requirement that the person accept properly given care and comply with every lawful direction given by his or her compulsory care coordinator or case manager.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThere are provisions for specified people to use reasonable force for restraint, detention, or transportation. There are also powers for seclusion and medication. Those powers are balanced by specific safeguards against their abuse. They include court reviews of the terms and conditions of compulsory care, 6-monthly clinical reviews, independent monitoring, and the opportunity for intervention by a High Court judge. In addition to those, Part 5 guarantees people several specific rights, including, but not limited to, information relating to their assessment and care order; respect for the care recipient\u2019s cultural identity; independent health and disability advice as well as independent legal advice; and company, to receive visitors, and to receive and send mail.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EThe main changes recommended by the Health Committee pertain to the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D, the removal of non-offenders from the original legislation, and the inclusion of \u201CRehabilitation\u201D in the title of the Act. Again, I would like to commend the work of the select committee, and I support those changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EConsiderable progress has been made in setting up the infrastructure for the compulsory care regime. Each of the four regions within the Ministry of Health has established a regional intellectual disability care agency, and has appointed staff who will now be able to carry out the care coordinator\u2019s role as established under the legislation. Hospital level secure services are still at an early stage of development. The bill will provide the courts with appropriate options for the referral of offenders with an intellectual disability into a care and rehabilitation regime, and, in doing so, will close a legislative gap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003EIn addition to thanking the select committee, I also want to place on the record my thanks to officials and to parliamentary counsel for their considerable assistance with the passage of the bill. It has been a particular pleasure to have the consideration and support of nearly the entire Parliament on this important issue, and I commend its further speedy progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb301edb07df43e4a6dd49f96babe738\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb301edb07df43e4a6dd49f96babe738\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura):\u003C/span\u003E It is with pleasure that I rise to support the bill. The Hon Ruth Dyson made the point that one of the major changes to the bill was that the Health Committee took away the non-offender group. There were two groups: those that offended and could come under this bill and receive compulsory treatment and care, and the non-offender group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI just want to quote from the commentary on the bill, which includes a quotation from the submission of Kathleen Taylor, who wrote: \u201CFor several years now we, as parents of a child with special needs have been encouraged to believe that the care of our children should happen in the communities in which they live. We have been encouraged to embrace \u2018mainstreaming\u2019 and \u2018inclusion\u2019 in education and leisure. We were promised adequate levels of support. Institutions were a thing of the past. Now it appears that our children can be incarcerated if authorities feel that they \u2018appear to pose a risk\u2019...\u201D. That is why that section was taken out. We cannot incarcerate someone for compulsory care simply because they appear to pose a risk.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EWhen we look at individual cases before us, such as those of David Stephens and Mr Ryder, we can see that the behaviour of those people has been at the level of offending. But those offences have been understood because the person concerned does not have the intellectual capacity to understand the consequences of his or her actions. What will have to happen under this bill is that when a person does assault another person, or behaves in a very antisocial way that breaks the law, that person will have to come before the courts, be found unfit to plead, and come under the jurisdiction of the Intellectual Disability (Compulsory Care and Rehabilitation) Bill. If that happens, a person can either be placed in a secure facility or be subject to 24-hour community wrap-around services.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EI have to thank the Rt Hon Wyatt Creech, who was the principal driver in developing this bill when the National Government was in power, and my select committee colleagues, especially Paul Hutchison and Roger Sowry, who worked well on this legislation to get it to the state where we have all agreed to support it in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe Hon Ruth Dyson mentioned that hospital level care facilities have been very slow in development, and I would urge this Government to get on with it, because the people who will now come under this bill need somewhere to go. Some of these people are still in mental institutions or forensic care. They may be at the Kimberly Centre or Braemar Hospital. They need to be placed in special facilities, because they cannot be placed in community care\u2014their behaviour has been such that they pose too much of a risk to themselves or to society. It is important that hospital level care facilities are developed. I know that one is being developed at Porirua and another at the forensic unit in Auckland. But that development has been too slow, and I urge that it be speeded up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D was another area the select committee worked very diligently on. It was essential that we manage to have a definition with a broad enough scope to allow for the capture of people who have a low IQ, around 70, and who may have some skills in some areas but very poor skills in others, which leads to their offending. If they do have very poor social skills, or have been trained in inappropriate behaviour, then they need to be captured by this bill so that they can go into a care programme to improve their behaviour and to protect themselves and the public. The meaning of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D was expanded to allow this to happen, and I think we came to a good conclusion in the end\u2014one that we hope will work in practice.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003EThe whole purpose of the bill is to ensure that those people who since 1992 have not been covered by the Mental Health Act do have an Act of Parliament that will protect them and the community. It is with pleasure that I support the passage of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4d11ad2ae8444ed8169e866a386ff1c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4d11ad2ae8444ed8169e866a386ff1c\u0022\u003EPITA PARAONE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E T\u0113n\u0101 koe. I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to support this bill. But in so doing, I want to express some concerns I have, particularly with regard to the costs that are likely to be diverted away from the area of service delivery, and the likelihood that they will be used in managing the service. It is important that I mention that concern, particularly if we take some note of how the health service in this country has developed over recent years. Although I acknowledge that we need good management, I feel that much of the budget that has been allocated for the delivery of services has been consumed by management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E I also want to mention that the apparent emphasis on one ethnic group under clause 23 does not augur well for other ethnic groups, particularly those with similar social structures. In that regard, I refer to our Pacific Island brothers and sisters and say that the bill as it stands is silent in that respect. The bill gives some solace to the wider community in that it goes some way towards protecting it from those people for whom this bill aims to provide improved services. In that respect, the Government ought to be congratulated on promoting this bill. Clearer direction is provided to the courts and to the health professionals who will have to administer this new legislation. I note that there seemed to be no difficulty in the latter stages of the debate in debating most of the parts of the bill as one. The fact that a decision was made to deal with the earlier part of the bill in single parts, thus avoiding further opportunity to call this Government to account in the time that would normally be set for oral questions, was some cause of disappointment to me and my colleagues in New Zealand First. In conclusion, I reiterate my support and that of my colleagues in New Zealand First for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022548724871a27405cb2ab2f0b2f10d8fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022548724871a27405cb2ab2f0b2f10d8fb\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E ACT New Zealand will be supporting this bill. It is necessary to address a legislative gap that has existed for the intellectually disabled in need of compulsory care, since the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment and Treatment) Act of 1992 was instituted. This gap has seen the inappropriate placement of some of those with an intellectual disability in mental health services discharged into the community, when this is clearly inappropriate for both the person involved and the community, but, worst of all, of course, is their placement in prisons. Prison is no place for those who need compulsory care but have not committed a crime, or have valid considerations when these are taken into consideration. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis bill allows for the requirement of the intellectually disabled to accept care programmes when compulsory care is necessary. We heard quite a lot in the Committee stage about Barry Ryder. He is a very good example of exactly why this bill is necessary. Barry Ryder was sent to prison and was let out, as the law stipulated he should be\u2014only to reoffend again. That happened, despite the fact that Neil Pugmire breached his position with regard to privacy issues by warning that Barry Ryder would reoffend again and that that course of action was completely inappropriate. Had this legislation been in place when Barry Ryder was first sentenced, the consequences, the lives that have been ruined as a result of his further reoffending, may well not have come to fruition. So ACT New Zealand will be supporting this bill, but I would like to state for the record the concerns we have about it, and they are several. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EOur first concern relates to the insertion of the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D into the title. We are not opposed to rehabilitation and certainly the intellectually disabled should have the same right and access to treatment that all other citizens in the country enjoy. However, \u201Crehabilitation\u201D needs to be defined for the purposes of the bill, and, despite my repeated requests to the Minister for a definition, this matter has not been addressed. I would have liked to see the Health Committee at least attempt to define \u201Crehabilitation\u201D. I suspect in this case that it really meant behaviour modification, and it would have been good to have had that pointed out. The problem with talking about rehabilitation, both within the bill and inserting the word \u201Crehabilitation\u201D into the title, is that it raises the expectations, particularly of the families or the caregivers or guardians of the intellectually disabled and sometimes of the patients themselves. It also places an added burden on the workforce\u2014the health professionals who are responsible for these patients\u2014and I think it is an unrealistic one. Rehabilitation in its broader sense means we are able to cure people, but, of course, there is no cure for intellectual disability, and that is something that should be remembered. It is very important that terms like these are defined when we are talking about very specific things in legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe second concern is the change in the Supplementary Order Paper of the definition \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D. I was not on the Health Committee, but we are told there was extensive debate about the definition. The select committee spent a lot of time and effort, and listened to many opinions about what the definition of \u201Cintellectual disability\u201D should be but, despite that\u2014and despite coming up with what I thought was a very flexible but realistic definition, and one that certainly the medical profession seemed happy with\u2014the Minister in her Supplementary Order Paper went back to the original, very narrow definition. I think that will raise problems for clinicians. The third concern relates to the political correctness in this bill and in others. We are very disturbed that political correctness seems to be pervading legislation these days. The term \u201Ccare recipient\u201D was brought up by several members. They used to be called \u201Cpatients\u201D, and there was nothing wrong with that term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aae79c26c8664484833fc61c4327950d\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Quite simple. Everybody understood.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f6ad832f8f24eb485b0afa71d9305e7\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, everybody knows what it is. When somebody was receiving care or treatment that person was a patient. That term was later changed to \u201Cclient\u201D, but those people were still receiving treatment so they were still patients. The politically correct title, \u201Cclient\u201D, implied that someone was paying for services. Now we have moved on to \u201Ccare recipient\u201D, which does not roll off the tongue. People have to stop and think: \u201CCare recipient\u2014what does that mean?\u201D The word \u201Crecipient\u201D is not even part of some people\u2019s vocabulary. Anyway, this political correctness is unnecessary and just confuses issues. The law should be simple and clear. In fact, terms like \u201Ccare recipient\u201D do nothing to help in this regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe fourth concern is the cultural references, which I also spoke about in the Committee stage. I did attempt to have clause 23 omitted by way of an amendment, but, unfortunately, it was not supported, except by my colleagues in the National Party. My question was: why was reference made only to M\u0101ori? Perhaps this Government believes it is only M\u0101ori who suffer from intellectual disability. That is not the case, of course. People from all cultures deserve the same access and same respect when being treated. So quite why M\u0101ori have to be constantly singled out is beyond me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200c378206432484b8dc8f829201c455a\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Just listen to yourself!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707784b451c44981b03482e4e65abc9c\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: I am listening to myself, and if the member wants to take a call he should do so. Good clinical practice incorporates a sympathetic approach to cultural matters, and it is a sad day when we put into our legislation clauses about cultural awareness. Such measures are unnecessary\u2014they should happen as a matter of course. If we single out particular ethnic groups, a mini-industry builds up around the legislation on those cultural considerations. We have seen this happen in many areas, particularly in the health field, but not isolated to it. When these things happen, an industry builds up. There is a legal requirement on the part of the district health boards, whatever areas we are talking about, to institute these things, and those staff members must be available, even when there is not much work for them to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe people working in this field are delighted that this legislation will be passed, and that is why I am supporting it, despite my very valid concerns. Many of those workers share those concerns with me, particularly the cultural ones. It is not acceptable in this day and age to have the intellectually disabled housed in places like prisons, and in some of our mental health facilities around the country. They do deserve treatment that is specific to them and caters for their needs. For that reason ACT New Zealand supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022 data-id=\u0022781f689f31ec40abb9cf5f33fdbdf3fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022781f689f31ec40abb9cf5f33fdbdf3fb\u0022\u003EJUDY TURNER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It is great that this issue is finally being addressed, when we consider that work on this started in 1995 when the Ministry of Health commissioned a discussion document. It is concerning, however, that an issue directly affecting the lives and future of some of the most vulnerable members of our adult population can languish for such a long time, and perhaps that reflects our ability to ignore the issues of those with intellectual disabilities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe bill is positive, in that it reflects society\u2019s desire to protect and rehabilitate vulnerable members of society rather than punish them. It represents a further step in recognising that although society does not condone offending, our response to offenders with intellectual disabilities needs to acknowledge the reality that in many cases prison is not an option. The bill is important because the public eye has tended to focus on the specific issues of people with mental illness, and the needs and unique issues of those with intellectual disabilities have often gone unheralded. I congratulate the Minister, Ruth Dyson, on actioning this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EUnited Future is pleased that the definition of intellectual disability has been altered to align with international definitions. We are pleased that non-offenders have been removed from the scope of this bill, as such a move would have created alarming possibilities for discrimination on the basis of disability. However, United Future is concerned that adequate care is resourced for those with challenging behavioural issues so that the possibility of offending is minimised. We were also concerned that the Government should ring-fence funding for compulsory care, especially in the initial stages of the development of sites for staffing and protocols. This has not been done. However, the Government has assured us that the additional $50 million funding over 3 years is tagged and able to be differentiated from other service expenditure. It will also have the protection of having to be signed off. It is essential that compulsory care is adequately resourced. United Future\u2019s central concern is that although this legislation provides an avenue for those who have an intellectual disability and are in need of compulsory care, the needs of a much larger and vulnerable segment of the population still remain substantially unaddressed. It is expected that approximately 150 to 200 people will be covered by this proposed legislation. However, there are an estimated 11,500 to 15,000 adults who need support due to disability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EThe National Health Committee\u2019s recent report To Have an \u2018Ordinary\u2019 Life, released last month, raised a number of very disturbing concerns relating to the importance we place on the needs of those with intellectual disabilities. The committee found that adults with intellectual disabilities are treated as second-rate citizens. Their lives are simply not consistent with the vision of the New Zealand disability strategy. Unlike ACT, in this regard we support the new terminology of \u201Ccare recipient\u201D as opposed to \u201Cpatient\u201D. These people are tired of being thought of as sick rather than impaired. The current support services are overly custodial and restrictive, and they can stifle the ability of those with intellectual disabilities to make their own choices. The report, in its disturbing category of findings, highlighted that there is systemic neglect of the developmental potential of this group of people, and their families and wh\u0101nau. There are also high levels of poverty, a lack of basic health-care, low educational opportunities, as well as a lack of communication support, a lack of culturally appropriate services, and a lack of purposeful futures. With the move from deinstitutionalisation in favour of community care this group has been forgotten, and the committee comments that although the bricks and mortar have been removed, many adults remain disenfranchised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220d9640b0-d861-43d8-b321-e7ba56dbe362\u0022\u003EWe commend the development initiatives for non-offenders, but believe that we need to see improved outcomes in the areas of respite care, vocational services, and independent supported living services. It is our responsibility to ensure all measures are in place not only to support the human potential of this group of people but also to ensure that the number of people with intellectual disabilities who become subject to compulsory care is reduced in the future. United Future is pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022783b88fd2b754d9aaa7846e6d5e1a35d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022783b88fd2b754d9aaa7846e6d5e1a35d\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E With a great deal of pleasure I do, indeed, say that I support the third reading of this bill, particularly so because it has taken so long before it has finally got through the House. After all, the genesis of this bill was in the 1980s and 1990s. At that time it took people like Law Commissioner Tim Brewer to urge that it was very important for this to come into being after some preventable tragedies had occurred in New Zealand. During that time more preventable tragedies have occurred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt seems quite extraordinary that even though the bill was introduced in October 1999 the Labour Government has chosen to look at other priorities such as introducing the Health and Disability Bill, which has only perpetrated on New Zealand the most enormous conglomeration of unmitigated bureaucracy that our health system has ever known, and instead it could have concentrated on bills such as this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EHowever, I must say that I enjoyed that early select committee and the cross-party collaboration and enthusiasm to see this bill progress. I must acknowledge my colleague Dr Lynda Scott for her very valuable work, and, of course, Wyatt Creech, the former Minister of Health. That Health Committee was indeed unique with the presence of the former chairperson Judy Keall. While I cannot say that I necessarily miss her unique articulations and iterations, I can say that the House and the select committee are quite different without them. She was a woman of huge enthusiasm, and I am always grateful to her for bringing my 97-year-old mother a bunch of flowers on her birthday when she was 91 or 92. However, she did, indeed, have a lot of care that this bill should be well considered and that it should be brought through the House with due expediency, and that has not happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWhat makes me even more frustrated is the fact that here we see this Supplementary Order Paper that has redefined intellectual disability. I acknowledge that the Minister has explained the reason it has been redefined on a technical basis, but there is a mistake. Clearly, on one page we talk about a confidence limit of 95 percent, but on the explanatory note we talk about a confidence level of not less than 75 percent. If the Hon Marian Hobbs had that sort of confidence level with her sweetcorn she would be getting into a hang of a lot more trouble than she is in already. I hope that this was merely a typo and that it will be corrected, because it was fundamentally very, very important. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI am also concerned by the political correctness that has infiltrated itself into this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224543954795d94bdd8fcecb489cd2e2cc\u0022\u003EHon Ruth Dyson\u003C/span\u003E: The member is better than this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cde79145c1524be7afb3d029a0a6d6b4\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON\u003C/span\u003E: This is important, because these terms, unfortunately, stick and they are unnecessary. The point is that the person in the street does not understand them. It is the same with this extraordinary need of the Labour Government to legislate for cultural correctness. We have this whole clause 23, \u201CCultural assessment\u201D, where not only is there the requirement to attempt to legislate culture, ethnicity, language, or any religious or ethical beliefs, but also the attention to M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EWe never really had the explanation as to why it is so necessary in this sort of bill. We are living in a truly multicultural society, and while, of course, it is absolutely appropriate that families, wh\u0101nau, and iwi are totally acknowledged and observed, why does it have to be put specifically in legislation? I think that in 50 years\u2019 time it will not be relevant. We have sort of gone through this little 20-year time warp where there has been this absolute subconscious knee-jerk reaction to have attention to something that will not endure on universal principles over a long period of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI want to make just another couple of comments. One is to reiterate that one of the submitters who left me with a strong sense of concern about getting this bill correct\u2014Kathleen Taylor\u2014who had been through the situation of having an intellectually disabled child who had not offended, was in absolute constant worry of that child offending, but she could not find anyone to take responsibility when the going got tough. The plea that she made was, instead of such a punitive bill, she would like to see measures put in place to adequately support parents and caregivers to care for the disabled dependants in their own community. This would be a far less expensive option. With adequate levels of supervision, dangerous incidents would be extremely rare. I think again of the forethought of Wyatt Creech and the National Government back in 1999 when they provided $50 million to ensure that some of those basic facilities would, indeed, be put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI note that the commentary states: \u201CThe following service development has occurred: Service specifications have been developed \u2026 The Clinical Training Agency has put out a Request for Proposal for the provision of a training course \u2026\u201D. Now that has not gone as well as it could but it was very important that it actually happened. \u201CNegotiations are commencing with providers to build up capacity in preparation for services for offenders, and Work is also proceeding on the planning for other community based services.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003ENow the sadness is that not all those things have come to reality. Phil Goff, back in 1999, again said that the basis of this bill was providing realistic mental health services and facilities for those who were intellectually disabled, and that has not happened. However, I end by saying that I certainly do support this bill into the House. It is timely. It is overdue, but it is certainly necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249e620bce12147b4a6576162c25a4c98\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Horticulture Export AuthorityAmendment Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002282d2f60fc5d04b629a966ca7c21b7c5d\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00227f0ff00b67234d39a9f7ebec65599caf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f0ff00b67234d39a9f7ebec65599caf\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a second time. The bill was introduced into the House in March 2003 and had its first reading on 2 April, after which it was referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration. I thank the committee for its work on the bill and for reporting it back so quickly. The bill has three main objectives. The first objective is to provide the kiwifruit industry with the option of bringing the export of kiwifruit for consumption in Australia under the framework of the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Act. The second objective is to prevent quantitative restrictions from being imposed by export marketing strategies approved under the Act. The third objective is to make three administrative improvements to the Act itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe select committee received 362 written submissions on the bill, showing a clear level of interest and the importance of it. I am pleased to inform the House that the vast majority of those submissions supported the bill, allowing kiwifruit exports for consumption in Australia to be prescribed under the Act in time to apply that framework from next April, which is the start of the 2004 export season. Of the 352 submissions that supported this, 341 were submitted by individual kiwifruit growers and focused only on this objective. The other 11 submissions supporting this proposal were from kiwifruit exporters and kiwifruit industry organisations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI am also pleased with the strong support demonstrated to the committee by the kiwifruit industry. No doubt this support means that I can soon expect an application from the kiwifruit industry for an Order in Council to bring kiwifruit exports for consumption under the Act. It also indicates the kiwifruit industry\u2019s desire for this bill to be passed sooner rather than later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second objective of the bill is to prevent quantitative export restrictions being imposed under the Act. This objective arises from the need to ensure the Act is consistent with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. This was the most controversial objective of the bill. Sixteen submissions to the committee commented on this objective of the bill. Of these the committee received seven submissions opposing removal of the provisions allowing quantitative restrictions, while a further eight submissions proposed consequential amendments, and one submission expressed support for removing these provisions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe consequential amendments proposed to the committee were insertion of the words \u201Cmarket development\u201D and \u201Cflow planning\u201D into the section of the Act that states what an export marketing strategy can be about. In respect of the proposed consequential amendments, I support the committee\u2019s recommendation that the words \u201Cmarket development\u201D be inserted into the bill. Section 6 of the Act states that the primary function of the Horticulture Export Authority is to promote the effective export marketing of horticultural products as prescribed under the Act. The concept of market development is central to the Act, and an export marketing strategy under the Act should clearly be able to include such proposals. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI also support the committee\u2019s recommendation to amend the bill to clearly state that quantitative restrictions are not permitted under the Act, and to not insert the words \u201Cflow planning\u201D. These recommendations remove any uncertainty about whether quantitative restrictions may be imposed under the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe third objective of the bill accounts for the majority of clauses in the bill. These clauses provide three administrative improvements to the bill. The first improvement is to the Horticulture Export Authority\u2019s statutory decision-making processes. Currently the Act provides for reconsideration of decisions, only in relation to applications for export licences. The bill extends this reconsideration right to cover Horticulture Export Authority decisions on export licence conditions and applications for exemptions under the Act. The second administrative improvement relates to the powers of the arbitrator who under the Act considers appeals of the Horticulture Export Authority\u2019s statutory decisions. This amendment provides the arbitrator with discretion to award all costs of an appeal. This overcomes the narrow interpretation that has set a precedent on what costs can currently be awarded under the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe last administrative amendment is to allow the Horticulture Export Authority to cancel redundant export licences. This will allow the authority to ensure that its public register of exporters remains up to date, and it will save the authority\u2019s time and money by ceasing its involvement with those businesses that no longer export particular products under the Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe committee received support for the bill making these three administrative improvements from key submitters, being the Horticulture Export Authority itself, the Horticulture Exporters Council, and the joint submission from the Fruitgrowers Federation and the Vegetable and Potato Growers Federation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the select committee for its consideration of the bill and for reporting the bill back. I would like to say that the committee operates very effectively in a non-partisan way when we have important issues around the export of primary production from this country. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00223252bf2538cf4485a47e17721ae546df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223252bf2538cf4485a47e17721ae546df\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will support the passing of this bill, with pleasure. I start by thanking the Minister for his speech and also commenting on the interesting situation that the Primary Production Committee found itself in when initially the bill was presented to the select committee under the name of the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, and immediately to my right on the select committee to hear the evidence and consider how we should handle the bill was the very same Hon Damien O\u2019Connor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e2a5a1002a64ccf9e06a2126bd10689\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: A constitutional outrage!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209897601beef423caf0fb8f0673f78c0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I would not have gone so far as to say that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223413cef7187b44a6a38b2870b2ee95ed\u0022\u003EHon Damien O\u0027Connor\u003C/span\u003E: Good advice right to the end.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a214dd5dbb0b4941a37f33c030a99344\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister did give good advice, but I think the select committee process is there to give the public a chance to have confidence in the fact that the executive and its work is being examined by the select committee process. It is a very odd situation that the Government managed to get itself into, whereby we had the Minister sponsoring the bill sitting on the select committee as we embarked on the process to examine the bill. The good news is that common sense prevailed. I think also the workload of the Minister probably prevailed, and we welcomed to the select committee Harry Duynhoven, who towards the end of our consideration made a very good contribution.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E I would like to comment on the three administrative changes, which were supported\u2014I think I am correct in saying\u2014by all submissioners who made mention of their inclusion in the bill. I think I am correct in saying that. It seems wise to me that we have a system whereby the register of growers can be kept absolutely up to date, and the change whereby export licences are recognised and removed seems common sense to me. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe issue of the ability for the arbitrator to award costs equally is something that I think is correct. It puts some pressure on any particular party wanting to seek arbitration on less than genuine and sound reasons. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003ESecondly, I mention the timing of the legislation. The industry appeared before us asking that the legislation be passed as quickly as possible. It presented information to the select committee that problems existed with the way Australia had been considered at the time a domestic market. More important, there was some evidence before the select committee of exports occurring from New Zealand to Australia, and then the re-exporting of New Zealand kiwifruit from Australia to other markets, certainly to the detriment of the international marketing efforts of Zespri. So there was an issue of timing. I note that the select committee managed to report this back on 19 August, and there it has languished on the Order Paper for in excess of 2 months, and now we are in a position of moving it through with urgency. I imagine that the industry, on the whole, will be very pleased that the Government has finally seen the necessity to move this legislation through. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EIn talking about the Australian situation, whereby this legislation will now amend the current Act and allow kiwifruit exports to Australia to be brought under the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority framework, I support that. I support it on the basis of the strong evidence given to us that the current mechanisms whereby Australia is treated as a domestic market had resulted in an uncoordinated approach to the market, to the detriment of growers in New Zealand. I take this opportunity of congratulating Zespri on the excellent job it has done in securing other international markets, to the benefit of kiwifruit growers in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dbc783dc94a478e96d84ed7b8b5e47c\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: And staying duty-free.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec973e1c76e54db98d77787c283b23f5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Ewen-Street never misses an opportunity. I will not say any more. I congratulate Zespri. I think the remarkable turn-round in the fortunes of New Zealand kiwifruit growers is in no mean way due to their superb marketing efforts, and that is to be for the benefit of the guys themselves, quite obviously, but to the benefit of the New Zealand economy on the whole. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe final point I make refers to the third leg of the legislation and the changes it then makes to our export requirements so that New Zealand cannot use quantitative restrictions as a means of trying to manipulate the market. It is a technical area, I accept, but with New Zealand being a country so dependent on exports, it is vital that we portray to the world an ability to export on a fair basis, without any so-called possible trade barriers and restrictive quantities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe select committee processed the bill, as Damien O\u2019Connor referred to, in a very non-partisan way. I think we have made substantial changes, which I will talk to through the Committee stage, that have improved the legislation. I applaud the Government for finally moving it along on the Order Paper, and the National Party supports such legislation and its changes, with pleasure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022fb5fa9ec244d452e8f2736937a95280e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fb5fa9ec244d452e8f2736937a95280e\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E First, I would like to thank the chairperson of the Primary Production Committee and the officials, from whom we got excellent advice, as usual. I, too, would like to congratulate the kiwifruit industry on a remarkable turn-round in its fortunes over the last year or so. The people in the industry were innovative, and took many risks in the early days, but they have organised their industry and have gone out there to capture markets on the other side of the world. New Zealand First has always supported organised markets or organised marketing, even in the times when it was not at all fashionable to do so. It is interesting to recall that in the haste to reorganise all the marketing boards a few years ago by another administration, this one was going to be the prime contender for reorganisation. It adjusted its constitution, called itself Zespri, and did a whole lot of other things. But essentially it has remained a single seller, and that has been its strength. New Zealand First and I congratulate the industry on its foresight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis bill does something else that we think is very advantageous: it stops the re-exporting of fruit that has been sent to Australia on to other markets\u2014or, at least, it makes sure that the fruit sent to Australia is of a standard that is set by the Horticulture Export Authority, and, prior to that, by Zespri itself. Our markets are damaged by inferior-quality fruit. Marketing is hugely expensive. These people have done a huge marketing job in Germany. They have purchased I do not know how many Volkswagen cars, painted them all up, and promoted the products\u2014not to mention all the lovely ladies they employ in order to get people to sample the products. A huge cost was expended on marketing. It is simply not fair, it is not sense, and it is not good business to see those markets eroded by inferior-quality fruit. That is what has been happening, to a degree. Smaller fruit, fruit of insufficient quality, has been going into Australia, and then entrepreneurial exporters have been sending it on from there to compete with Zespri fruit in the markets where the quality has been built up by the expenditure of a lot of money over the years. This bill stops that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThere were several submitters who would have liked to organise the market to too great a degree\u2014in the select committee\u2019s view, and, I think, in the Minister\u2019s view. They wanted to organise or regulate the quantity of fruit that was going into the market, which would have had the effect of ratcheting up the price. Naturally, the select committee rejected that request. This bill, in fact, takes away the quantitative restrictions that were in the overarching bill. We think that is fair and proper. We have no problem with regard to making sure that the market is looked after and saved from inferior fruit, but we do not believe that it is in New Zealand\u2019s interest or the growers\u2019 interest to starve the market of fruit, thus ratcheting up the price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThere are those on the right of our party who believe that all fruit has a market. Mr Gerrard Eckhoff made that point very strongly at the select committee. He believed that even inferior fruit would have a market, and that it should all be sent out there. He said we should have a \u201Cbuyer beware\u201D situation, with people paying what they think they should pay, and the market would sort itself out. We do not subscribe to that theory, and neither did the select committee, I am pleased to say. So we ended up with the amendment that we have here. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThe kiwifruit industry has recovered from some tough times. It has put tough restrictions on its growers, and has asked for large contributions from them. Most of the growers\u2014not all of them\u2014have gone along with that, and are reaping the rewards. Not all growers have agreed with that, and those who have not done so and have not put the effort into ensuring the quality of their fruit would now seek to reap the rewards of those who have invested large amounts of money. We do not think that is right. I am concentrating on a small part of the bill, but I think it is a very, very important part. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI commend this bill. New Zealand First is happy to support it, in spite of some interjections from my parliamentary colleagues across the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022e4245e64ce1b4f4fa6f031c58d107fe1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e4245e64ce1b4f4fa6f031c58d107fe1\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I find myself in a rather interesting situation. As the rural spokesperson for ACT I am quite clearly very keen to ensure support from rural New Zealanders, whether they be kiwifruit growers or woolgrowers, or whatever they may be. But the issue is not about popularity. The party I represent has always stood in this House and espoused principle. We also espouse philosophy. That is something that we will not break away from. The principle behind this bill is this question, which I ask the House: do people in the year 2003 in New Zealand have the right to sell the products of their labours? It is quite a simple question, and I think most would say yes, of course they do, and of course they should. Then we get into the intermingling of the theory and the practice, and we start to say no, they should not have that right because it could upset the market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWell, I think it is important to stick to a fundamental philosophy and to a principle. The principle I espouse this afternoon is that everybody should have the right to sell the products of his or her labours. Indeed, I well recall submissions from members of the M\u0101ori community, who demanded\u2014they did not ask; they demanded\u2014the right to sell the produce of their labour. They had a very worthwhile marketing plan, based on indigenous peoples, as I understand it, throughout the world, and it seemed to me to be a highly intelligent and very sensible way of achieving a niche market. Yet the Primary Production Committee looked at that and said no. I support anybody, whether M\u0101ori or non-M\u0101ori, who wants to sell a product overseas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EKiwifruit is sold across the water to South Islanders. Where is the export authority on that one? Indeed, I asked that question of the members of Zespri and so on, and they appeared to be slightly embarrassed about it, because the South Island is getting inferior-quality fruit. It still tastes the same as higher-quality fruit, and it still has a great colour and everything else, but it is misshapen. Frankly, when I go to a supermarket in Roxburgh or anywhere else, I do not mind about that. I look at the price and say to myself that I can buy some first-rate Tauranga kiwifruit\u2014or wherever they may be from\u2014for 50c, and that the nice big $1 ones have been exported to the American market. But I have some sympathy with the ordinary person in Australia or wherever else who says he or she cannot afford to pay $1.50 or $1 for a kiwifruit, and would actually like to buy a misshapen one for a lesser price. It makes the point that Mr Woolerton made\u2014that is, that there is a market for everything. Can members remember a situation in New Zealand whereby we said we would be allowed to export only high-grade, quality wool? We export dag wool, for goodness\u2019 sake! Why? It is of inferior quality\u2014but we have a market for it. Surely the principle behind this issue is that if people have something that other people want, they can sell it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI was quite disturbed to hear that the House passed, almost without a murmur, the Wine Bill. We have a wine export authority now, so we are getting a creeping socialism\u2014I can only describe it as a creeping socialism\u2014coming into the export of our product. First it was wine, and now it is kiwifruit. What is next? Are we going to have it again with apples? Are we going to go down the path of that outrageous example of a few years ago, where apples were controlled? If we look at what happened to that industry, we see that that was an absolute disaster. So I ask the House to recognise that constraints of trade long term will have a bad impact on the viability of this country. Whether it is in the case of two small industries, or smallish industries, like kiwifruit and wine does not really matter; I come back to the fundamental principle that it is a constraint of trade. I think that the M\u0101ori members of our community who are involved in the kiwifruit industry will be most upset with some members of this House espousing the fact that M\u0101ori cannot and should not export the sort of fruit they want to, after M\u0101ori have gone out there and found markets for it. I think it is very important to emphasise that particular point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI will go back in history a little bit, just as a slight lesson for my colleagues Mr Woolerton and so on. There was a constraint of trade in Ireland. Way back in the 1700s the Irish\u2014Mr O\u2019Connor is looking very interested in this, given his ethnicity\u2014were not allowed to export glass and wool, I think it was, by decree. An export authority said they could not export those products. Then along came the potato famine and a few other things, and Ireland was in all sorts of economic trouble because an authority had said certain products could not be exported. Again, that principle is just so wrong. We must have a situation whereby the people of the country get out there, scour the world, find the markets, and sell their products. We actually import a huge amount of inferior product from throughout the world and sell it in retail stores. The people of New Zealand have the nous to say they do not want an inferior product and want a superior product, both of which may come from the same country. We have the ability to choose for ourselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWhat is it that makes other parties in this House seem to think that people throughout the world do not have the capacity for choice? Of course they do. They choose on the basis of quality, price, and a host of things that appeal to them, and that is surely their right. There is the possibility, for example, that somebody in Australia may come up with a wonderful way of handling second-grade fruit and turning it into a product that nobody in this country has even thought of. Yet we are saying no, that person cannot do that. Again, I say the right to sell the product of our labour is a fundamental principle that this country should be based on. If we are to have a deed of such principles applying throughout this country, one of them must be that we have the right to sell our product, whatever that product may be\u2014whether it be wine, wool, or, in this case, kiwifruit\u2014to a market, wherever that market may be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI make this point also. How many million tourists do we get coming into New Zealand? They have the opportunity to buy so-called inferior-grade kiwifruit. Why? Why do we not take that inferior-grade fruit off the market in New Zealand, as well? That is why this bill is so stupid. It is like telling tourists who come to New Zealand they can drink only quality New Zealand wine, because they could have a bad experience if they drink a bit of stuff from Damien O\u2019Connor\u2019s corner of the world, the West Coast\u2014not exactly a renowned wine-growing area. The point is that this global village of ours is made up of interactions. People have the ability to make decisions and choices for themselves. They come to New Zealand, have a great taste experience with a bit of Zespri Gold or the traditional kiwifruit, and they are not overly concerned about the shape of the fruit. If they can get it cheaply, they think that is great. When they go back home, cannot get the cheap stuff there, and have to pay three times the price for kiwifruit, they think that when they come to New Zealand they can get cheap kiwifruit. Why do we sell cheap kiwifruit here? If we are to constrain the quality overseas, why not also constrain it in New Zealand, because the same people will be eating it. The same people from Australia, England, and America will come to New Zealand and have that so-called bad experience of eating inferior-shaped fruit. That is what we are talking about. We are not talking about quality in terms of its flavour, because nobody will buy the stuff that is mush. It is only the shape and size of a kiwifruit that really seems to be the problem for the Horticulture Export Authority. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI make the final point that there is only one authority. What will happen if its decision-making process is wrong? The whole of the industry will go down, just as it did with ENZA\u2019s apple exporting. That authority got things wrong, and the whole of the apple industry suffered. That is absolutely the wrong approach to take. We should spread the risk and allow the industry to develop. We will get responsible attitudes right throughout the industry if it is allowed to progress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc4c1560fec94c92beee7eef166ee571\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc4c1560fec94c92beee7eef166ee571\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to take a very brief call in the debate on the second reading of this bill. I start by thanking the officials, as some of my colleagues have also done. I appreciate the quality of the advice they gave us. I would also like to pay testament again to the collegiality amongst the members of the Primary Production Committee. I believe we work very well, in a non-partisan way. We may take our own political views outside the committee room, but when confronted with a problem inside the room we deal with it in the best and most practical way possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EI would like to address one aspect of this bill very briefly, which is that of export to Australia. Despite the comments of my learned colleague Mr Eckhoff, who obviously failed Marketing 101, the influx of low-quality kiwifruit into Australia has resulted in a loss of about $5 million per year to our kiwifruit industry. It was a loss, but as I understand it that is exactly what he is advocating. One of the problems the industry has had is that kiwifruit exported from New Zealand to Australia have then been re-exported for a profit from Australia to Asian countries in particular. It is obviously to the disadvantage of New Zealand growers that growers are getting a low price in Australia while some entrepreneur in Australia is on-selling for a profit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EIt is clear to me that the idea of having an organised single-desk seller is still effective. Like my colleague Mr Woolerton, I believe that the single-desk concept is not a bad one, despite it being very unfashionable. Kiwifruit sellers have decided that that is the best way for them to go. They have also decided that their market, both in Australia and in other parts of the world, is very much dependent on quality. That is a very similar message to the one we debated on the Wine Bill last night. The wine industry is also heavily dependent on quality. A lot of our markets are dependent on quality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EOne thing we have to bear in mind is what the wine industry and the kiwifruit industry have in common, other than their obsession with quality. They are both market-driven and they both state that they need to be GE-free. They cannot embrace genetic modification because markets will collapse. It is not rocket science that we are talking about. Even Gerry Eckhoff could probably get Marketing 101 if he got his head around that. If we have a market in which people do not want to buy our product, we will have very low prices. What we want is to have a high-quality product that people want. At the end of the day our markets are unequivocal. They say that a premium will be paid for our product if it is of high quality and guaranteed to be free of any kind of genetic contamination. [Interruption] I say to Mr O\u2019Connor that that is the way it is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is very pleased to support this bill. Obviously, the Horticulture Export Authority is a very learned body. It is one that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292e66714c1c44571b345817abb602b18\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Learned? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223eb8d5087c8445258d2b514233ec7c99\u0022\u003EIAN EWEN-STREET\u003C/span\u003E: It is very learned. It is concentrating on quality. That is what New Zealand export is all about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022 data-id=\u0022c2af1ef743f9480d9a68c0f06cacc32a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c2af1ef743f9480d9a68c0f06cacc32a\u0022\u003ERICHARD WORTH (National\u2014Epsom):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. It has been drawn to my attention\u2014and it may be that the Hon George Hawkins has not noticed it\u2014that he was keen to take a call on this issue and deliver an important policy contribution to the debate. I would not like the fact to be overlooked by you that he has not risen to seek the call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7a694c93d924020842f5cf7aac499b2\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00227f5e5b22b4464a87a8ed844492037d7e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227f5e5b22b4464a87a8ed844492037d7e\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill in its second reading on behalf of United Future. It is important to recognise that the bill amends the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Act in two important ways. A string of changes deal with the operation of the authority in general. As it currently reads, the Act provides for the imposition of quantitative restrictions on the export of prescribed products. Despite the non-utility of those particular provisions, their continued existence in legislation lies contrary to this country\u2019s international trade obligations. Given that, I support the Primary Production Committee\u2019s proposed reversal of section 26(2)(a) of the Act so that it states without ambiguity that an export marketing strategy cannot enforce quantitative restrictions on exports. If anyone else can tell me what that means, I would appreciate it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThree other general amendments to the Act, suggested by the authority itself, focus on the improvement of its administrative effectiveness. There is currently a hearing process for Horticulture Export Authority decisions on export licence applications. That process also considers circumstances where the authority believes, on reasonable grounds, that a licensed exporter has conducted export operations that prejudice the current product group\u2019s export marketing strategy. However, at present there is no provision for hearings to be held on other statutory decisions of the Horticulture Export Authority. This bill will rectify that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe bill will also allow costs to be awarded to all parties in the case of any dispute under the Act. That effectively will override the precedent set by the most recent arbitrator, who did not award costs to all parties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EFinally, the current Act fails to allow the Horticulture Export Authority to revoke redundant export licences, and therefore the register of exporters includes some redundant information. This bill will correct that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EMoving beyond adjustments to the general operation of the authority, I note that the bill also contains specific amendments relating to the kiwifruit industry. It allows the kiwifruit industry the option of coordinating the export of kiwifruit to Australia, through the Horticulture Export Authority. Kiwifruit exports to the rest of the world, except to Australia, are managed by the Zespri Group in a solitary export regime.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI take this opportunity to speak highly of Zespri and its marketing, which has developed such excellent returns for the kiwifruit industry\u2014particularly in the Bay of Plenty\u2014that the economy has been very positively affected over recent years. We are very proud in Tauranga that Zespri has chosen to move its head offices there, as many other companies are also doing, because of the excellent lifestyle that is offered in that wonderful part of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThere have been many comments made about the pros and cons of the single desk, and I believe that in Zespri we have an example of how single-desk marketing works very effectively for its growers. It is to do with the quality of the people who are involved in the organisation\u2014those who are committed to working for their members rather than becoming complacent and enjoying the lifestyle that the single desk can sometimes protect. I do not believe that there is any risk of that happening with regard to Zespri, and I commend the company for its excellent work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThis bill deals with concerns about the re-exporting of second-quality kiwifruit out of Australia. Much comment has been made about that already, and I also mentioned it in my speech in the debate on the first reading. I do not see that there is any need this afternoon to take any further time on that subject. United Future is very happy to support the second reading of this bill and looks forward to its speedy process through the House this afternoon.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002283d3d8390027417a9f46f747c71f0863\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283d3d8390027417a9f46f747c71f0863\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E It is great to follow so many good speakers from the Primary Production Committee. When I was a member of that committee I used to say it was the best select committee in Parliament, and now that I am not a member of that select committee I still say it is the best select committee in Parliament. I would love to be back as part of the Primary Production Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe select committee heard 352 submissions, with most of them in favour, so I have been led to believe. We are talking about a $1 billion export industry from New Zealand, exporting what used to be called, when I was a child going to school, Chinese gooseberries. I do not think many people understand that\u2014$1 billion worth of Chinese gooseberries are exported by the Zespri Group from Tauranga, in the Bay of Plenty, and across New Zealand. Those growers came to the select committee\u2014a very good select committee it is\u2014and suggested that they had one or two problems with people in Australia exporting second-grade fruit under their brand. They have some problems with that. I think they said they were a bit anxious about some of this back-door exporting.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ERecently, I was contacted by a person from the BBC who wanted to talk to me about the back-door tax from down under. I am not sure whether he was referring to back-door exporting or another issue that has nothing to do with this bill, so I had better come back to the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c6ab89732f245b3a3a83bf7fcfa553e\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CBack-up Pete\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01a5d6a9c14498c8be004325b64cbbb\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: He might have been talking about \u201CBack-up Pete\u201D. He was talking about something from the back door. I think he said the back-door tax from down under, which I thought was a very catchy line that the BBC ran.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThis bill is about people who are taking an inferior product, putting it under a brand that has cost a New Zealand industry a lot of money and effort to build up, and damaging that brand. We cannot allow that to happen. The Horticulture Export Authority has come up with a plan, which is outlined in this bill. It says that all products must meet the standards set down under the terms and regulations laid out in this legislation. The National Party supports that concept. The kiwifruit industry considers that exporting kiwifruit to Australia with the Horticulture Export Authority framework will allow marketing to be coordinated and quality standards to be applied, which will stop all that sort of activity from going on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI know there are some people who have concerns about the whole idea of any regulation at all of exports, and I know there are some who have submitted that they will be restrained, or their exports will be curtailed or otherwise restricted, by this bill. I do not think that is so. I think if they applied to the Horticulture Export Authority and Zespri, and worked through this issue with that group of people, who appear, to me at least, to be interested in the best interests of this industry and of the whole of New Zealand, they would find a way through. I understand that they have concerns, and I note that, but I think that if they work through the channels that have been outlined here, they will find a solution to their problems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThere are a number of other issues that are touched on, such as market development. Section 26(1) of the Act refers to the recognised product group for the product specified under the Order in Council. Clearly, that is a key point with regard to this legislation, because if what is being exported cannot be specified in terms of size, colour, breed, or other type of measurement, then it is very difficult to tell what it is that those who are complaining are complaining about. We know that through the very solid science and work that are going on. Zespri Gold, which is a relatively new development, is starting to develop new markets that did not exist prior to the whole formation of the kiwifruit marketing structure. It is showing huge promise in countries like Japan, and in other areas of the world to which we would not traditionally be able to export this product. We should support whatever it takes, whatever regulation is required, to protect, enhance, and help that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI think the select committee has gone through that thoroughly. I know that the chair of the select committee, my very good colleague the agriculture spokesperson for the National Party, assures me that the whole process was taken very seriously. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee785d69d29143b6b58e045d1df1db2e\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa24a1eb7da04f5b8f6c909154405efc\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I know that the member interjecting over there will have paid close attention to it, being a huge customer of Zespri\u2019s in terms of consumption of kiwifruit\u2014if not the fruit itself, certainly the products made from it, particularly if they have some kind of alcohol content. I know that those things would have been thoroughly investigated by this committee, so we can only assume that most of the problems that were raised have been addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI notice in the list of things that the bill also addresses mention of an appeal authority, or a hearings authority, or a structure whereby people can come, put their case, and have it heard fairly by people who have no axe to grind, as it were, or any particular political bent, line, or reason to want to persecute one group or another. That is an excellent structure as well because, clearly, for whatever reason, there will be some detail with regard to exporting somewhere that the committee has not thought of. If the export authority can address those issues under its licensing structure, then, clearly, we will have fewer problems with it. If it were too constrained, people would constantly feel aggrieved and want further appeals for change, and that would, obviously, be a costly process and a waste of time. I am pleased to see that that part has been addressed. The bill provides for hearings to take place to consider a refusal of a grant, or a refusal to revoke an exemption, or to impose or vary any conditions in relation to the exemption, under section 40 of the principal Act. That sounds like a very sensible way forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218fa716f48e241489620cd5ca475342b\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: You can rely on us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245f49e44414a4d84b92570a20fa2ff64\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: The member says we can rely on the committee. I am sure that is absolutely so. I know that that issue was raised under the former chairman a couple of times. He was working on it. It took a change of Parliament and a new chair, and we are here today debating it. I see that members opposite are pleased with that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab8904610e0437db45811a6f057308c\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Sit down, Shane. You\u2019ve been going half an hour.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d806bdb45ed24cadb5e6a7bc87077c3c\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: It is good to see that Government members over there are still awake and are pleased with that\u2014although it is hard to tell. However, they have suddenly risen to the occasion, and I am sure that at least half a dozen excellent speeches from them will follow, to talk about this issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EThe select committee also considered that section 26(2)(a) of the principal Act should not be replaced. Obviously, that would have taken a fair bit of time and a lot of consideration. Clearly, the select committee has looked at all the reasons why that would be so. I am pleased that it has been left there, and I look forward to one of the Government members taking a call to tell us why it was not replaced or repealed. I look forward to the contribution from those members opposite on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI also note that clause 5 has been altered to state clearly that there should be no quantitative restrictions on exports. That is a very good idea. Of course, we would not want to restrict the tonnage that we can export. If we can export thousands of tonnes of kiwifruit, whether they be Zespri Gold or just ordinary Zespri, we would not want to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276f2e639f8424ec48aa0e6095b4f2c20\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Chinese gooseberries.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022461ae6f56f1446fc8d97b1ef810832e7\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: And Chinese gooseberries if a market could be found for them still. We would not want to restrict that, either. This is excellent work from the best select committee in Parliament. The bill is very good, and I look forward to its passage through Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002245bfe5054f1f42449f660a624f8f1c05\u0022\u003EInstruction to Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022 data-id=\u002287ca9a4c7cbe40cd9a26c08f24c90d8b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287ca9a4c7cbe40cd9a26c08f24c90d8b\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I am sure the Minister is about to move a motion, but it might be useful, if Parliament is of a mind, to seek leave to instruct the Committee to consider the bill as a whole. I seek leave for that so to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u0022c7d44d9ace7a48c4bfed410472c27ca3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c7d44d9ace7a48c4bfed410472c27ca3\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to take the bill as one question. Is there any objection? No, there is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002212c3ef24d02e45ecab0f7050d0ef7b5f\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002256a37a9551f94be8a5e826569e8f8028\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 11\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002260a048cf19b044feaff0bf430018c362\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002260a048cf19b044feaff0bf430018c362\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I have two points to raise, and the first is with regard to the commencement date. I am certainly not proposing that we alter the commencement date. The sooner this legislation is passed, the better. I see that Mr Cosgrove is already applauding silently, although I do not know quite why. I have been concerned that this legislation has sat around for so long on the Order Paper. The Primary Production Committee is always asked to rush these things back. There is a bit of a pattern around this kind of thing, as the Minister in the chair, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, will well appreciate because he spent so much time working on the committee prior to his elevation to higher things. An explanation as to why the industry has had to wait for so long would be much appreciated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMy second point is the issue of the quantitative restrictions and the removal of the ability to apply quantitative restrictions. I refer to a number of submissioners, in particular the impassioned pleas made to us by the New Zealand Avocado Industry Council Ltd and the New Zealand Avocado Growers Association. Those people were quite genuinely concerned that the removal of quantitative restrictions would allow one particular grower who has established a market to a particular destination, but who is having trouble with that destination, suddenly to change plans and dump a large amount of product into another market, which could have an adverse effect on people who had spent some months or years establishing a credible marketing plan in that particular destination. I think the committee took note of their concerns in a very credible way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe acknowledge that the removal of quantitative restrictions does not mean that any grower does not have the ability to consider and formulate a marketing strategy that he or she will maintain throughout any particular season of export to any other nation. The growers were concerned about whether they would still have the ability to manage the flow of fruit on a consistent basis, and according to their production processes, their pack houses, shipping requirements, and shipping availability, to any market. I think the changes the select committee has embarked on have given a level of comfort to those people, who were concerned about the removal of quantitative restrictions. Certainly, all members of the committee acknowledged the need for that. We must make sure, as a country that is so dependent on exports\u2014as I am sure Mr Chairman will appreciate\u2014that we are squeaky clean. We cannot have an accusation raised against New Zealand that we are using quantitative restrictions to try to hike the price in any market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI would appreciate a comment from the Minister on those two points before I raise any other points of view. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d94f1962de6e4ea2a180904876e5404b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d94f1962de6e4ea2a180904876e5404b\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I will take just a short call. I want to address some of the concerns of those people who think there should be no regulation at all of anything\u2014least of all, exporting markets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdfbc4767ed844e5b8484194335ed2a5\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s it!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df417407d4604f93beff905efb2727e6\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Gerrard Eckhoff is happy to be guilty of that. It is not right, no matter which way we look at it. The great majority observes quality standards, observes undertakings that are not necessarily imposed on them by this House. It is not right that they are taken advantage of by the few people who do not agree with the majority, who do not go along with the majority view, and who seek to get an advantage from the majority yet pay nothing. The majority of producers have come to Parliament asking for this legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIt is also said, along with that, that these sorts of regulations often stifle enterprise. They stop people from doing things that are experimental, that are entrepreneurial, that change industries, and that forge future relationships and markets. That is taken care of in this bill, because there is the ability to have one\u2019s case reviewed or to call the Horticulture Export Authority to account, for that very reason. We must not stifle entrepreneurial activity, we must not stifle experimentation, and we must not stifle those who seek to do things in different ways. Just because a bill or an industry seeks the very, very best and seeks to impose quality standards does not mean to say that those entrepreneurial activities are lessened or in any way damaged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EI thought I would rise and point that out for those who may have nothing better to do than to listen to this Committee. I point out to them that those considerations have been taken into account, and nothing in this bill will stifle the entrepreneurial, pioneering spirit of good, hard-working New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u002280f58c8db2df4798b1ec21c4483b3ff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002280f58c8db2df4798b1ec21c4483b3ff3\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I too would like to take call\u2014a relatively short call in deference to the forlorn looks of my colleagues. I would be happy to debate this issue till midnight, but I can see a few distressed-looking faces around the Chamber, so I will get on with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIn looking through the debate on the Committee stage of this bill, I note that one of the concerns I have is this word \u201Cauthority\u201D. The word itself conjures up all sorts of images that take me back to my school days. In respect of the question of why we should have an authority, we have been there and touched on that. But I have learnt, during my 30-odd years in farming and in my time in politics, that it is not so much the make-up of a system that is important as the quality of the people within that system\u2014the authority itself, the handful of people who make up that authority. I am perfectly sure that at this time we have excellent people on the Horticulture Export Authority. I am sure they are very sensible, decent, honourable people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut what happens if there is a change? What happens if some individuals are appointed to this authority who turn out to be absolute disasters? I cannot see anywhere in the legislation a provision that will allow for the removal of those people. There is no allowance for a petition, or whatever, by Kiwifruit Growers, for example, if it is unhappy with the performance of one or two members of the authority and wants rid of them. I emphasise again that it is the individuals who make the difference. Whether they be in a political party, or on an authority, or on a regional council does not really matter. It is not so much the system; it is the individuals who make the huge difference. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E I am delighted to see that the sensible people on the select committee\u2014myself included, of course\u2014ensured that there was an appeal provision. That is hugely important, because an individual who is not satisfied, who does not believe that he or she has had a fair shake from the appeal authority, can go to an arbiter. Many would say that is not appropriate, either, and is like one or two individuals making a choice for a family. I come back to M\u0101ori people who wish to export their own fruit: if the arbitrator and the authorities say no, then that is it. Where do those people go? They go nowhere. There is a real problem there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI will touch on the views of Mr Woolerton\u2014who I am sure is widely respected in the Woolerton family\u2014who talked about the rights of the majority to impose on minorities. That the majority can always impose is a thing called democracy. The real question is not when, or whether\u2014not whether they can; of course we know that they can\u2014but should they? Should we always allow minorities to have their say and do their thing? I think that in a society like New Zealand we do, and should, allow it. In this very House we used to have Labour and National\u2014the old school, the old parties\u2014dominating politics in this country. People said that their time was nigh. People like to see minority points of view being expressed. I am most certainly in a minority here this evening\u2014and it is a hugely honourable position to be in. The point is that Mr Woolerton, who is a member of a minority party in Parliament, says that the majority should always be able to impose its views on the minority. No, it should not. The right of the individual is hugely important in our society, and the views of individuals who get together in a small grouping should be respected. As long as they do not impose their views on others, then that is entirely appropriate. I am opposed to the tyranny of the majority, just as I am opposed to the tyranny of the minority.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022 data-id=\u002261d43464c88a42da966bb14a7a9251a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002261d43464c88a42da966bb14a7a9251a8\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN (National\u2014Taranaki - King Country):\u003C/span\u003E I rise with a great deal of enthusiasm to speak on the Committee stage of this legislation. In particular, I want to speak on clause 5, which relates to the quantitative restrictions on exports. The reason for that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022732c185f19fa4d769d63415f2d04bf0b\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: A few good frosts would fix that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f18896e09654e50ae7fa14736cc55d8\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: That is right, a bit of bad weather would fix it. I see my colleague Mr Ian Ewen-Street over there, and I would like him to go out and check on the poor old p\u014Dhutukawa tree, as I think it may have been cuddled to death by a helluva lot of people. It may recover through the extra carbon dioxide that it has had to inhale over the last few hours, but its roots and bark have had a helluva pounding with the amount of cuddling it has had out there in the last while. Coming back to the export of kiwifruit\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002207b5525929d744579b2ed478f494bff4\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Do you get the same with cabbage trees?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201f38f714c2d4a93b98dca317af35d6f\u0022\u003ESHANE ARDERN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure. No, I do not think so. We could probably get a kiwifruit vine to grow over a p\u014Dhutukawa tree, and then we would be able to have both p\u014Dhutukawa flowers and morris dancing, with kiwifruit hanging from above. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI would like to talk about clause 5, with regard to the quantitative restrictions on exports. The problem when there is any type of regulation around an export industry\u2014and the ACT party will champion this\u2014is that we get into a position where we could potentially be criticised by other exporters, or other nations that are involved in exporting, as putting in place some kind of non-trade barrier. We have to pay attention to just how that operates. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI think that is the reason why the select committee gave a considerable amount of consideration to this clause, and came up with the removal\u2014or clarification, I guess, is the way to put it\u2014of quantitative restrictions on exports. Even though there were those who would have liked to see some brackets put around it\u2014and I believe that they put forward very good reasons for wanting to see that\u2014the problem is that we then have a battle, when we go overseas, to try to develop new markets in places where there are tariffs and quotas. Those who do not want our products to be exported into their market will say: \u201CHang on a minute, you guys are doing this back at home and now you are complaining about the restrictions that we place on the products that we have.\u201D So there is a high degree of sympathy in the National Party for making sure that legislative mechanisms that others could use against us are not put in place in that way. I am pleased to see that the select committee gave some time to that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003ESome M\u0101ori exporting groups oppose the idea on the basis that they would be restricted in terms of the markets they were developing. There may be some truth in that, and it is one of the things that the committee, no doubt, had to weigh up. The fact is, if we allow small quantities of fruit to go to where our markets know and trust the brand, and it does not meet the quality that has been established in that market, then, equally, we can damage that market, or damage future potential markets with regard to where we export. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EIt is always a mixed bag in terms of trying to balance regulation restrictions criteria around the size and quality of fruit, with those people who may have developed a niche market somewhere\u2014which may or may not grow\u2014and feel that they are being restricted because of the regulations we have put in place. I understand that the select committee gave a lot of consideration to that. I understand that the overwhelming majority of the industry\u2014something like 90-odd percent of those with products being exported\u2014came down on the side of the regulation that the committee finally finished up with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003EI think that, on balance, Parliament today will not exclude anybody to any great extent, and will allay the fears that some people put forward in respect of what may happen with a non-trade barrier against New Zealand, if we went too far with the regulation. On that basis, I consider the bill a very good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00225f64cb5ad2ac4d819d67c2b51361f6f0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225f64cb5ad2ac4d819d67c2b51361f6f0\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E It is all very well for the Minister in the chair, the Hon Damien O\u2019Connor, following his elevation from the Primary Production Committee, now to sit in the Committee stage and refuse to answer the valuable questions that have been raised. I take the opportunity of raising another couple of questions, in the hope that the Minister will rise to his feet and earn his salary today by answering those questions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI was particularly concerned about the pre-information on the growers who would object to the bill. Allegedly, some growers were marketing their product quite successfully in Australia\u2014so they claimed. There were allegations that some of those growers were then on-exporting to Australia. We received one written submission from Te Awanui Huka Pak Ltd. It was a written submission only. There was not the opportunity for those people to present before the select committee, but to my knowledge they were the only people who were adamantly opposed to the legislation\u2014that was the only evidence that the select committee got. I want to make sure that the Minister informs the Committee, before we vote on the third reading today, that there is not a number of other people out there who for one reason or another did not have the opportunity to present to the select committee. I would appreciate that point being answered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second point, as today I again look through the submissions from a number of submissioners, relates to the issue of quantitative restrictions, which has been discussed widely in the Committee stage tonight. The other issue that was evident throughout the submissions we have seen was the significant impact that trade restrictions are having on New Zealand exporters to other countries. I happen to know that the Persimmon Industry Council was meeting with the executive of the Government yesterday, trying to progress its case for assistance from the New Zealand Government to get access for its product to America.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E We know of the difficulties we have had with our American friends over recent months. We know of the insults that have been traded. We suspect that those insults have meant that the persimmon industry of New Zealand is now suffering because of the comments made by the Rt Hon Helen Clark. I would like to take the opportunity of getting the Minister to assure the Committee that the meeting did take place yesterday between the Persimmon Industry Council and himself, or his senior Minister the Hon Jim Sutton. I would certainly like to be assured today that if that meeting took place, every encouragement was given by the Government that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade will work with this industry, and, in fact, with all the horticultural industries identified through the submission process on this bill. We are passing legislation today to tidy up our side of the Act, but we want to make sure that every effort has been made by the Government to make sure it is furthering the interests of New Zealand growers in gaining access to other markets, particularly the United States. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EFinally, I want also to seek an assurance from the Minister that he will convey those thoughts to the Rt Hon Helen Clark. I ask the Minister to please ask her to restrain herself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d17c49b14e74b2b85f6163cf5843a5d\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s too busy on his immigration portfolio.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a1ff94d446324976a669f4093154574e\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not know he had one. I thought his portfolio was racing. Has he been moved up? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e4b18b8fd494e30b90dfa079ffbb267\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: A couple of places. He\u2019s a very good Minister on immigration.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212257db753c54b3b8e4969306b6548f1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, good. I know that the Minister is now keen to take a call. Following some suitable answers, I think we could then move to the third reading. I do want the Minister to take the concerns of the Committee to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022583c795aee334a8085995d205a914bd2\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243ee0e42d45649399aeac89945418a23\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! We could break for 5 minutes, if he wants to. I want the Minister to give the Prime Minister sincere advice that it would be better, if she does not know anything about foreign affairs and the damage she does to trade, to please stay out of it. We were able to tell the Persimmon Industry Council that we sympathise with the representations it made to the National Party yesterday. We do sympathise with the position it found itself in. It is comments that are made, perhaps in the heat of the moment, by a Prime Minister who should know better, that have on-going ramifications that make it very, very difficult for growers of our produce in seeking access to markets, particularly the United States markets. I look for that assurance now, as the Minister is about to rise to his feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00228b93eb8280394f1caacc980cc10a5ba1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b93eb8280394f1caacc980cc10a5ba1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I am happy to take a call and answer a couple of the issues raised by the chairman of the Primary Production Committee. Firstly, I turn to the growers who potentially were objectors to the bill. We understood that there may have been some objectors to the bill, but, in the end, the fact that there were no substantive submissions opposing the bill leads us to suggest that there is a maturity in the kiwifruit industry that understands that collaborative marketing is beneficial to each and every one of the growers, while there is an ability for them to expand the opportunities through entrepreneurial work, which the growers can undertake themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second point relates to trade restrictions. We understand that there are always difficult trade restrictions facing New Zealand exporters. This bill is an attempt to work through those things, in a very measured way\u2014in a way that does not upset any of our trading partners. They have an assurance about the quality of the exports they are getting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EWith regard to the US, we are very, very good friends with the US. We are also very grateful for the efforts of the US administration in assisting us to get exports into their market\u2014unlike the comments made by some politicians that we have had in recent days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFinally, I understand that quantitative export restrictions were a key part of the discussions at the select committee. The officials identified them as being potentially at odds with our position on free trade, so they, through this bill, advised us that we should remove any ability to have quantitative restrictions. Effectively, that will mean that those exporters who work in collaboration through the Horticulture Export Authority do not necessarily have to limit the amount of fruit they put into a market. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EHowever, there was an understanding and a discussion at the select committee that the strategy should incorporate market development. It is important not only for the growers but also for the wholesalers and the retailers in the markets that they have a consistent supply and a consistent quality of fruit. The inclusion of market development as a key consideration of any strategy is a positive step forward. It offsets some of the concerns of some exporters, that removing quantitative restrictions would have led to a free-for-all and perhaps to the dumping of large volumes of product into a market at an inappropriate time. I am sure that importers of our products will appreciate this, and it is for the benefit of the kiwifruit exporting industry as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EClauses 1 to 11 agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EBill reported without amendment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a0bb021259e04c7f8931a315cb3d03b9\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022f8f8b4d00196427882156b994ddd02d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f8f8b4d00196427882156b994ddd02d2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time. The Horticulture Export Authority was established in 1987, under the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Act, to promote the effective export marketing of horticultural products. It has achieved that, very effectively. In the last financial year around $125 million of horticultural products were exported under the Act. Squash, avocados, and summer fruit were the major contributors to that $125 million of exports. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe bill we are dealing with was introduced into the House in March 2003. It went to the Primary Production Committee for consideration, where a large number of submissions were heard. The bill has three objectives, as stated. The first was to enable the export of kiwifruit for consumption in Australia to be facilitated under the Act. Because the export of kiwifruit comes under the Kiwifruit Export Regulations 1999, there was a requirement to adjust the New Zealand Horticulture Export Authority Act to enable the Horticulture Export Authority to regulate the collaborative marketing of kiwifruit into Australia. The submissions from the kiwifruit industry demonstrated a clear mandate to the Primary Production Committee for amendment to this Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe second aim of the bill was to ensure consistency with New Zealand\u2019s international obligations. It was achieved through the bill by preventing export marketing strategies from imposing quantitative restrictions on exports under the Act. The committee improved the clarity of the bill in that respect, through proposing amendments that have now been incorporated into the bill. The first of the amendments was the insertion of the words \u201Cmarket development\u201D into the bill, to ensure that an export marketing strategy, while not imposing quantitative restrictions on the Act, would indeed allow sensible consideration of market developments and long-term market access. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EThe third aim of the bill was to improve the administrative provisions in the Act by applying hearings and appeal provisions to the licensing decisions of the Horticulture Export Authority. There is also now an ability in the bill to allow the Horticulture Export Authority to cancel redundant export licences. That will assist the authority in keeping an up-to-date roll on those who are exporting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003EFinally, I would like to thank the Primary Production Committee, under the chair of David Carter. It has done an excellent job in making some minor amendments to the bill. That was necessary, and it will certainly ensure that we get good, solid, and consistent value\u2014the best value we can\u2014from the Australian market, which does not undermine exporters\u2019 efforts in that area. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u0022980acfee47fa4b37b7dec3f35350f4bd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022980acfee47fa4b37b7dec3f35350f4bd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E National supports, with pleasure, the third reading of this bill. Initially, I want to make two points. First, I want to acknowledge in this third reading the tremendous turn-round that has occurred within the kiwifruit industry of New Zealand, and I congratulate Zespri and the growers on the progress that has been made. It was not many years ago that we perceived that industry to be an industry on its knees, and now it is enjoying record returns. So Zespri, as an organisation, with the support of growers has done tremendously well over those intervening years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second group that I want to take note of today is the Horticulture Export Authority itself. The authority has been a very successful mechanism that allows the control of horticultural products under a framework. This results in the betterment of those products that are now included within the product groups under the Horticulture Export Authority. Products like buttercup squash, table grapes, chestnuts, persimmons, avocados, tamarillos, boysenberries, and Nashi Asian pears, just demonstrate the wide diversity of horticultural exports from New Zealand to overseas markets. The producers of these individual products would, if left to their own resources, find it difficult to get a cooperative marketing approach to the world, but this mechanism provides a highly successful means of New Zealand having the ability to market its product in an orderly fashion to present top quality produce to markets around the world. So I pay credit to them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe reasoning behind the amendment to the Act has been well explained through the second reading and the Committee stage, and I do not intend to go over it again now. Suffice it to say that the Australian market was initially tried as a domestic market. That meant that the returns from the Australian market were not being maximised to the benefit of New Zealand growers. There was also the side issue\u2014but an important side issue\u2014reported to the select committee of some New Zealand product going through Australia, then being re-exported to other nations to the detriment of the efforts of Zespri in those particular countries. I think that was a valid concern. It was a loophole that needed to be closed down, and therefore National is happy to support that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI conclude by thanking my colleagues on the select committee. We have had a very significant workload this year with another matter that we hope to bring to fruition in approximately 4 or 5 weeks\u2019 time. In between the hearings we have had on that other substantial matter, we have managed to facilitate the legislation through the select committee process. With the amendments we have made through that process, the bill is now back before the House in a very commendable shape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022 data-id=\u00220afa37113ded4f1e955aab0c68f2b949\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220afa37113ded4f1e955aab0c68f2b949\u0022\u003ER DOUG WOOLERTON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I nearly fell over a wee while ago\u2014not as a result of the gin\u2014when I heard my colleague Gerrard Eckhoff speak about the tyranny of the majority. That was a bit unusual, coming from him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EEvery producer, every business person, and every marketer has the right, the opportunity, the privilege, and, I believe, the obligation to maximise the returns of its products to the benefit of its growers. If that industry, market, group of farmers, or horticulturalists can do that, then I say: \u201CAll strength to their elbow.\u201D They are marketing in niche markets for the benefit of New Zealand and conducting market development, which is very costly. I believe that this bill will reward them for that and help them to get the better returns they seek. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EWe cannot let this bill pass without mentioning the competition. I read in trade magazines just the other day that the Chinese\u2014from whence kiwifruit came; it was originally the Chinese gooseberry\u2014are getting into the market in a big way themselves. They are formidable opponents in this area. They have thousands of years of culture behind them. They have been involved in agriculture for thousands of years, and they are not to be taken lightly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EThis industry of ours, which is still a very, very small industry by world standards, needs all the help it can get. It needs the reputation that has been built up, it needs all the authority the Government can give it to make sure that its markets are not invaded by inferior quality fruit, and, at the same time, it needs to be very quick on its feet to move and develop new products\u2014and it can still do that. In other words, the industry needs to keep on its mettle, and I am sure it will. I am sure this bill will help it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003EIf we were to go out in a naive fashion, we would have individual farmers\u2014or individual traders even\u2014in the most ridiculous scenario, trying to sell their produce to huge supermarket conglomerates, which is where the buying power is held nowadays. It is not just a matter of going and selling on a fair market. We are selling on markets where every objection will be put up. They will put up every tariff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E They will put up any blockage possible in other countries to either stop or make it harder for our exports to enter their market, and chief among them are the huge supermarket conglomerates. They will use their power to lower the price to our exporters, and therefore lower the prices received in New Zealand. We rely on those prices for our standard of living. This bill will do what it can to stop that practice from happening, and New Zealand First is all for it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022f70e2b07e24a42b5bd40c58ae7b3e9a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f70e2b07e24a42b5bd40c58ae7b3e9a7\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Despite what some might think in listening to this debate, this bill is one of the more important measures that we have around this House. It is very important because it affects the wealth of this country, and it affects those who create and export that wealth and add to our overall prosperity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIn listening to previous speeches, I could not help but wonder\u2014as I listened with my extra-sensitive perceptive ears, although I am rather deaf\u2014just how long ago it was that we sat listening to speeches, some that Mr Speaker might well have heard, that lauded the formation of the Dairy Board, the Meat Board, and, indeed, the ENZA Board. All these boards became single-desk authoritative bodies that we are now debating at this time. We also remember that, although at the time they sounded like a very, very good idea, they have now passed into history. So time will tell whether I am right or wrong. I suspect that in time\u2014perhaps 10 years; I do not know when\u2014we will be back here wondering why we passed this particular bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThat aside, I have absolute pride in speaking to this bill because the philosophy behind it is hugely important. Indeed, the principle behind it is of equal importance. It is about the right of people to export their own product\u2014it is not difficult; it is quite simple\u2014and it is about innovation. It is about the right of indigenous people, as I have mentioned in previous speeches, to sell their product without input from overwhelming cost structures, which inevitably\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022833aa7b426f84754be65ffb271adb336\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Which ones are you talking about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200a6addeddae442380794ccc71eed341\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF\u003C/span\u003E: We have one or two still, I believe, in the North Island\u2014but we will not go there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe fundamental basis behind that philosophy of ensuring that people have the right to sell their product if they create it, is a hugely important one. That is why I will vote against this bill, out of principle, not so much out of the practice, or what is going to happen over the next few years. I am sure things will go along quite nicely in the interim, but long term I suspect we will be back here again, wondering why we passed this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI also reflect on the fact that the wine industry has become hugely more regulated. The regulations were three or maybe four pages long as I recall, but now they are 100 pages. We have had concerns from the World Trade Organization about the near monopoly that Fonterra operates. In this global village of ours these are very genuine and real concerns that this House should be concerned about. Our trade Ministers of all Governments, present and past, go overseas exhorting the rest of the world to get rid of controls and regulations, and unless we do something very similar we really cannot stand at the top of the mountain and say: \u201CWe\u2019ve done it, follow us.\u201D We are still looking for this measure of protection. If the rest of the world sees that we are not pulling our weight or we are a little less than pure as the driven snow, as we pretend we are, then I suspect we will have some trouble convincing countries like America and Europe that they should do away with regulation and allow the trade of the world to interact with one another. It will find its natural balance, as indeed the kiwifruit industry will, under the same basis. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIt is with some ambivalence\u2014I think that is the right word\u2014that this bill will pass, as far as I am concerned. I respect the rights of kiwifruit growers to form themselves into a bloc if that is what they wish, but I wish also that other people would respect the rights of individuals\u2014and this is what is so important\u2014to do their own thing throughout the world, if they so choose. It is very foolish people who go out there and undercut their neighbours, because ultimately they will undercut themselves, and that adds nothing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI understand why people are very much in favour of some sort of export authority. However, I come back to the philosophy and the principle. It makes me feel rather sad that we have come to this situation, but I do have to respect the rights of kiwifruit growers to form themselves into a grouping. That is their right and their privilege.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 5.14 p.m. (Thursday)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031021df4e5cbf783e4993b9477a63c59c7347000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"