"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00222ca89133c505435d80833d5e6811975b\u0022\u003EWednesday, 5 November 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022bee041b9f6004980be47093059134b25\u0022\u003EWednesday, 5 November 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237a95817b54d47feb340e00e7283e7e5\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229bc152e5272f49d5bd0192cf681a7ac4\u0022\u003EHaemophilia Foundation of New Zealand\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u002235721b47c21445dfb02af535360d6ac0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002235721b47c21445dfb02af535360d6ac0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to do two things: firstly, to table a press release from the Haemophilia Foundation of New Zealand, which clearly indicates that all members of Parliament are somewhat besmirched by the rather insensitive comments made yesterday by the Hon Dr Michael Cullen, Deputy Prime Minister; and, secondly, to seek some direction from the member as to whether he intends to apologise to the foundation and to this House for besmirching all our reputations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232f06f116fd04f399baecb0a87fe1dfc\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The second matter is not a point of order, but the first one is. Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229861238a494d4b17b282de12acc149b4\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002253ce078b82c74b688f79bc68aada5362\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dd1f43003c934259b05d94b6f38c7943\u0022\u003ECommonwealth Secretary-General\u2014Second Term\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022984ea1da99304ed8a6e758c221de0913\u0022\u003E1. ROD DONALD (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade: Does the Government support Commonwealth Secretary-General Rt Hon Don McKinnon\u0027s bid for a second term as Secretary-General; if so, why? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00226008d41cfcdd41999525d938e32c5004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226008d41cfcdd41999525d938e32c5004\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E The answer is yes. Don McKinnon is doing a good job. He is a New Zealander and there is strong support for him to undertake a second term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf7bc506655d4199a848a7cf3bcdf812\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the high regard in which Mr McKinnon is held by this Government is the Minister concerned about Mr McKinnon\u2019s statement in the Guardian last Friday, headlined: \u201CCommonwealth fury at Whitehall meddling\u201D, and stating: \u201CBritain and New Zealand have been interfering in the Commonwealth Secretariat\u2019s internal staffing policies.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002202faa2a7d39d478986c73c6d8ddedf0c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: No, I understand that that may be Mr McKinnon\u2019s alleged comments but that Mr McKinnon does not have a problem with the role of New Zealand in that regard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9a94bf3-a948-4410-8413-403a7454114b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224625b65e883b4c2fbe796797b87eabd0\u0022\u003ETim Barnett\u003C/span\u003E: Which countries are supporting Don McKinnon\u2019s bid for a second term as Secretary-General?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f721941c24a4d6f92a2e4e9b33ad75c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: A range of Commonwealth leaders have expressed to Mr McKinnon their support for his securing a second term. For example, at the recent Pacific Islands Forum in Auckland unanimous support was expressed for Mr McKinnon. At this point there are no other declared candidates for the position, although I understand that Zimbabwe\u2014suspended from the Commonwealth\u2014has been trying to find a second candidate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228606221ca4ae46d192b6346f93121b4b\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Given there is now a news release headline alleging: \u201CNew Zealand in plot to muzzle staff at Commonwealth Secretariat\u201D, what steps precisely has the Minister taken to check the validity of that news release allegation and what steps will he take to satisfy this Parliament that no New Zealand staff have been involved in any meddling in the employment of officials at the Commonwealth Secretariat?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217254fde98ee4cd79f1afb848431e319\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: The role of employment of officials within the Commonwealth is, of course, the responsibility of the Secretary-General and no outside country. That does not prevent\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac169d29-4849-42c2-a4a7-f344fd416503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878f56e0a0224693834c588aaa5c3fce\u0022\u003EDr the Hon Lockwood Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Outside New Zealand staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d4f19e6dda649d089bdef6f42c1481d\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: If the member wants to listen to the answer, I will give it to him. That does not prevent any country that has a particular concern about the behaviour, appropriate or otherwise, of officials from raising that concern with the Secretary-General.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f36cdd48b09642fdb87cb040eb99766e\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that a meeting took place earlier this year between Robert Hole, a New Zealand diplomat at our High Commission in London, and Eileen Drage, a senior official in the British Government, at which they agreed to monitor the activities of Roman Grynberg, a Commonwealth Secretariat official, who happens to have views on trade at odds to those of the New Zealand Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6f1a39dd5744beea5fe2cf3a3f28ecc\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I can confirm that a meeting took place between Rob Hole of the New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and an Elaine Drage, who I understand is employed by the Department of Trade and Industry in the United Kingdom. Concern has been expressed about the behaviour of a particular official and there are appropriate ways to take that up with the Secretary-General. I would expect those ways to be employed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002264eadd62f299495b9ed37f7703bdfdf5\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the letter from Elaine Drage to Robert Hole that confirms that Mr Hole agreed to find out when Roman Grynberg\u2019s contract expires and to ascertain the procedures for filling posts at the Commonwealth Secretariat, and would he give this House a watertight guarantee that neither of these actions was ever taken by a New Zealand official?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e59b92b65934827857094a05cb5a61c\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen the letter and nothing that Rob Hole is accused of in that letter is in any way offensive, a criminal act, or in any way inappropriate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ddf6031c6e644025ab1bf19e77e00c3c\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister extend that view to the fact that Elaine Drage asked Robert Hole to leak her a copy of a draft \u201CDevelopment and Democracy\u201D paper being prepared for the December Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting because she regarded the trade section as dangerous and protectionist and wanted it changed before a meeting of Commonwealth officials next week?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c5e5f2fdf3a4fefa0af4abef9aa0979\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure what the document is that supposedly was to be leaked, but if a New Zealand official, as a member of the Commonwealth, had that document I presume that a UK official, also a member of the Commonwealth, would also have that information and be entitled to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245dc5919866945f299296f752b41f6ff\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: Notwithstanding that the document was being prepared by an Australian academic, does the Minister agree that Don McKinnon\u2019s job as Secretary-General is to work for all Commonwealth countries, not just the rich Western countries; if so, why is the New Zealand Government undermining this work by attempting to remove officials from positions where they can advocate for the interests of poor countries, many of which do not accept this Government\u2019s commitment to unrestricted free trade?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220802dbfaa4d84ffbbfdcac2db588efe3\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I agree with the first comment. I think the second allegation is wrong. If the member is trying to find some comfort in Don McKinnon\u2019s statement for his position on international trade he will find none, because Don McKinnon\u2019s viewpoint on this issue, as this Government\u2019s is, is quite different from that member\u2019s. We are in favour of removing subsidies, and we are in favour of removing barriers to trade not only to developing countries, but also, of course, to efficient agricultural producers like New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217fb676c49c84aa2984562952fc97d0c\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the letter from Elaine Drage, who is a director of trade and development, to Robert Hole, a counsellor at the New Zealand High Commission.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E Document not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226e7bfee5-ac9c-4ae2-b85d-7d3b7a785561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206ccfb4f83054d1bbbe0910c333452b1\u0022\u003ERod Donald\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the Guardian article headed: \u201CCommonwealth Fury at Whitehall Meddling\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022446323b290ea42f2951ea3e771d1a10e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that newspaper article. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225760b5876f044f2a8503a49f2260ac14\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management Bill\u2014Government Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287aa1408d84c4991b3f83baa581ff49b\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does she stand by her statement that she believes the Land Transport Management Bill \u201Cis very good legislation. It is not the policy of this Government to put things \u2018right\u2019.\u201D; if so, has she communicated this view to the business and local government groups who have serious concerns with this bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022a7b7e61d0c304f7cb6362164b9ebdd51\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a7b7e61d0c304f7cb6362164b9ebdd51\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I stand by the statement. The Government is committed to fixing Auckland\u2019s transport problems and not to imposing right-wing ideological prescriptions on them. I am sure the member would agree, given that he believes that moving to the right is wrong and crazy and says that he cannot support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222a6e1393fd404e83a8ed7bae564eb1b7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Given the strong commitment from the Prime Minister to fix the problems that are clearly wrong in Auckland, is she concerned by the comments of the Employers and Manufacturers Association, which said today: \u201CThis bill is a con-job being wrought on road users\u201D, and that her Government is \u201Cmisleading road users into thinking the new law will help ease traffic congestion, but all it will do is divert more taxes into non-road purposes.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221587461993949f0b3fd643bfad84178\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: No, I would not agree with a word of that. Effectively solving transport issues does require a multimodal approach. That means roads, it means the public transport that rolls along them, it means rail, and it means alternatives to roading and demand management.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bed66a1376404baabcecd3ea738c635f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister share the view that it is only proper that the Government releases the economic report it is preparing on petrol tax diversion before it imposes any additional costs on motorists as proposed under the Land Transport Management Bill; if she does share that view will she tell the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Transport, in particular, to stop sitting on their hands and get the report out so we can all digest it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022310b770fcb6246229c9b5deb14b63f3f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I understand the issues referred to are being covered in a more general piece of work that is being done, and the Minister will be happy to release it when it is completed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c223b3dc37d47f1a6ec595d65850121\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Since she stands by her statement that the Land Transport Management Bill is good legislation, can she tell us the latest date on which the eastern highway will be completed, or does she not take responsibility for getting Auckland moving?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bbdddd194c84781b61d1d61f0a25e6a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: She\u2019s not a navvy!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb0363db35a94880a95bff986f47c507\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As the Minister of Finance said, no, I am not a navvy; I cannot give that date. The matter has not been approved by Transit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022136f450f68bf4e128c37b48cb4ddafe8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Prime Minister had any advice that yesterday in the House Mr Brownlee was claiming he knew nothing about the Land Transport Management Bill and had not read it; if so, will she make her officials available to brief him on it, so he will not have to rely on the roading lobby for his information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da8207b1682f4437a69489b768418a15\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have heard that such comments were made. Of course the Government would be delighted to make officials available to brief Mr Brownlee. My only other suggestion for him is that as he aspires to higher office perhaps he could hand over the transport job to someone better qualified, like Maurice Williamson, while Mr Brownlee prepares to move up the pecking order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f778e723623f4705a1309d064654fa21\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: As the Prime Minister is going to make officials available to Mr Brownlee, would she confirm that these officials will not be the same ones who were at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee on the Land Transport Management Bill, who claimed to have no idea of any report in respect of excise tax for petrol diversions, or is this just a clear case where the Greens and the United Future party are determined to impose a road tolling regime on New Zealanders, regardless?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af3101085f74b1ca8a967a1e11ae43c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am certainly not aware that those two parties are prepared to impose a road tolling regime on New Zealanders, regardless. However, I am well aware of a minority report by the National Party on the bill that suggested that tolls should be able to be applied anywhere any time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b964cb7dc3b49bfbc79147a5060a894\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that the Prime Minister has generously offered to make officials available to give me a briefing on this useless piece of legislation, can she assure the House that those officials will be made available without the dead hand or agent of Heather Simpson present while the briefing is being given?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217848559009446a0bc38d189f0e0aa6c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure Ms Simpson will be delighted not to attend. Personally, I would be very happy to do anything I can to help Mr Brownlee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220280327f2ff440c5989f82fef31b6f2b\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am overcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221276214cb2084c3e84694ba9510eaa42\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I was about to rule on the point of order, but I too was overcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226903a87e7d164460ab1fd7430af57389\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Despite her penchant of late to start speaking in the third person and giving herself all sorts of plaudits, when did she become a miracle worker in the case of Mr Brownlee\u2019s offer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222518533e19f24065b6479970b2a69f11\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It may take a miracle, but they are known to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224bc4787fc7674ab9985a74d594ba1642\u0022\u003EOrganic Agriculture\u2014Promotion\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b5c91a7edfe434ca40370d13f8dc4aa\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Agriculture: What progress has the Government made in promoting organic agriculture and enabling consumer choice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022 data-id=\u0022f660996abe7842b28ca578c9064fb9a2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f660996abe7842b28ca578c9064fb9a2\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON (Minister of Agriculture):\u003C/span\u003E Last night the New Zealand Organic Standard 8410 was launched. This is significant for the industry, because it gives greater assurances to consumers that the products they buy really have been grown organically. Currently, anyone can label their produce as organic, in order to command higher prices. However, that product may have been grown without any adherence to organic principles whatsoever.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb1a5ffdb654cb1a53c02d74c0f178c\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What other initiatives has the Government carried through for the organic sector?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f93b9140d4914b21936757f438f66899\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Also launched last night was the organic sector strategy, which sets goals for the industry over the next 10 years. That strategy, the standard, and the small-scale organic certification scheme, which has now grown into Organic Farm New Zealand, are three Government-funded initiatives aimed at creating the necessary framework to enable the sector to grow and prosper, and are now in place. The extent to which they do grow and prosper, of course, will depend upon the demands of consumers around the world and the ability of the sector to meet those demands.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259d0b50ddff04d5db9a4a494f04a56fa\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: What progress has his Government made in promoting any agricultural export market, particularly in view of the free-trade agreement between Australia and the United States, which could be finalised before Christmas?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c6e46d6dcf104a4f9789c8c8930f8e6f\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government, of course, has made tremendous progress in promoting our agricultural exports. The sector is very pleased with those results.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220932ed1ac708453987ab3c6e4fc5c751\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: In terms of promotion of organic agriculture, what does he believe the appropriate balance should be between organic and traditional agriculture in New Zealand, and what is the rationale in promoting one form of agriculture over another?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1bd415e39384a32acb7103b7bc19fb2\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Many countries have thriving agricultural sectors\u2014organic, conventional, and genetically modified\u2014coexisting. There are niche markets that are profitable for organic produce. This Government favours our exports being targeted at profitable niche markets in whatever form.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e30b9f9eb8d74c78bd2c58d136ec35e9\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minister reconcile his support for organics with the Government\u2019s simultaneous lifting of the GE moratorium, given that the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry has failed to establish an effective coexistence regime, and that research commissioned by the UK Government shows that coexistence is a physical impossibility?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222e7121af-c8f1-4d5c-b1f5-5646e4d9ca70\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266a7c592fab24642a81694ccab517f5e\u0022\u003EHon JIM SUTTON\u003C/span\u003E: Many countries have coexisting, thriving organic, conventional, and GE agricultural sectors. Those include the European Union and our closest neighbour, Australia. In fact, I am told that there have been something like 1,775 GE releases, mainly for field trials, in Europe since 1991. That is the same sort of thing the Environmental Risk Management Authority is considering for onions in New Zealand right now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c36b175935b34fed9d12182043ad2445\u0022\u003EChild, Youth and Family Services, Department\u2014Record-keeping\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200058f6d7b164d18b531562a7a21f3d9\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF): What is the reason that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services does not know how many children are in its care, and after 4 years in Government who does she think is responsible for this lack of information?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc8380dad8c04c81a6ec3df6c1f67fb3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before the Minister replies, I want to say that she advised me that the answer was going to be slightly longer, and I advise the House accordingly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022263e467669f34940bd170c7d943e05e5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022263e467669f34940bd170c7d943e05e5\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Associate Minister for Social Development and Employment (CYF)):\u003C/span\u003E The reason the department cannot at this stage produce a total figure of the number of children in its care, despite knowing the numbers at the case-management level, is that the first information systems priority was the development of a sophisticated case-management information system to support front-line work. This is now working well. The next phase to be implemented as a priority, in this and the next financial year, is the development of management information systems capability. That will include integrated national planning and reporting capabilities. That work programme is part of the accountability arrangements that the chief executive signed with me as Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cab5d59f1e27419485338679a9b40b62\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: When the responsibility for accurate information about the children in the care of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services ultimately falls on management and the Minister, does she agree with the comments of Judge Mick Brown that while there are some good people in Child, Youth and Family Services, there are some \u201Cdrongos who need to be sifted out\u201D; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f818c1bbc6c74c4f94bb216ffa667c48\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In direct comparison to my ability and responsibility to sort out said people in other political parties, I am not responsible for individual staff members within the department.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222be035a6aaba4db08dba3a594be9970f\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My question was quite simple: does she agree with Judge Mick Brown, or not? She did not address that question. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbbf4d4102af4a1590dc731de09a541c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not require assistance from any member of the House, and two parties did so. The Minister did address the question. It might not have been the answer the member wanted, but she certainly addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022612ae2dd708040c78b7905ae9ddb5345\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, she was asked whether she agreed with the comment from a former, retired judge who is very experienced in this matter. She did not answer the question, at all. What she did do was point to those she implied to be drongos in other political parties, for whom she said she is not responsible, or for sorting out those people within her department. She did not answer the question as to whether she agreed with him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcf5a9e2b645443bae4a0b9b03a2b5eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did not take any notice of that part of the answer because it was political. I took a great deal of notice of the last sentence of the answer, which did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a518a28e35e14b39a04ef29232078d65\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: Has she received any advice from the department on the effect of the previous Government\u2019s funding of the department\u2019s information systems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294ac725178074277a4f8d4259b1da283\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Comments about this must be within the Minister\u2019s responsibility.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da769af01de5440daa56dfff76a34fcf\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: In its briefing to the incoming Minister in 1999, the department advised that at the time it was established in 1999 the constraints on capital spending meant it could not develop the information systems it needed without prioritising and sequencing the development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292725083603d4679817205d825552f7a\u0022\u003EBarbara Stewart\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the department is ensuring that accurate records are kept, are steps also being taken to ensure that foster parents are appropriately screened and regularly monitored, in order to provide safe environments for these children in care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c17a4d321b114bf58b3a82358985f6c2\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The answer is yes, although that is not directly related to the primary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b53a35b3d0ab47f38185d5a8a8c5997c\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: On what exact date did the Minister first learn that her department did not know how many children were asleep in its care every night, as identified in the Government\u2019s baseline review, and what action did she take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cec047e5ef924a7a8d51873e2e765c47\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: The department is able to say how many children are in care, but only by individual contact with every person responsible for the case management of those children. The system does not allow the department to push a button and get a national figure in one go. The date I learnt of that was when I first received the baseline review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022875fdea3a4d14ea587da33bf6ad90388\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that since the department is unable to provide any figures of the number of children and young people in its custody who are not enrolled in school, that is a damning indictment of its failure to achieve its statutory objective of preventing children and young persons from suffering deprivation; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221df3d55cc544b82b9f59d6aa7baf667\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, I do not, and the reason is that the information system has now been upgraded to include data on school enrolments. This will apply to all new cases, and current ones as records are updated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c7b0a9dc2e548329d6164eafb699d2e\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that the Child, Youth and Family Services computer system Cyras has been upgraded in full, so that fields to include whether a child is in care, or in school, have been completed and implemented, so that the department knows exactly whether all its kids in care are enrolled in school?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ee6cc8fefa9435db44896830db43f6f\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is exactly the same question as the one I have just answered, so I am happy to give the answer again, in case the member missed it. The information system has now been upgraded to include data on school enrolments. This will apply to new cases, and to current ones as records are updated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022006a4949843c4ef0931b7891fb018c55\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When the Minister was asked whether she agreed with the respected former judge Mick Brown\u2019s comments about there being drongos in her department, why did she not tell the House whether she agreed, and will she do so now?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226907e1035cd741a6bfa0cebee11e9193\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have responsibility for the comments made by Mick Brown, and I do not personally think that that is an appropriate term to use in reference to any other person.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265335b099abc40399967c487d8e2920d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am not asking that junior Minister whether she has responsibility; I am asking her whether she agrees. Surely she has some opinions on the matter, given the tragedies we are seeing around our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231d340fab0904c30a52e533c7b9a1e34\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member has asked for an opinion, and he is entitled to do that, but the Minister is entitled to answer in the way she did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f4df87d763948a2a4891bf08a716e79\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: What has the Minister\u2019s Government done over the last 4 years to retain the good people at the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services and sift out the people whom Judge Mick Brown described as \u201Cdrongos\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212b19b8d79924ceb9bb69f1cecc30b5e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Our Government has put a considerable amount of effort, energy, and resources into allowing and supporting the department to achieve the functions that we as a Parliament expect of it. As we noted in the debate yesterday, that was after a considerable amount of neglect and underfunding by the previous Government. But in the end\u2014as that member should know if she wants to keep her seat on the front bench\u2014I, as a Minister, do not have any responsibility for the individual employment of staff.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002268f4a2d8542c460497f739aa1284cf76\u0022\u003EBroadcasting\u2014Public Ownership\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c181b3c01649414caaddee26e0bda05e\u0022\u003EDIANNE YATES (Labour\u2014Hamilton East)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Broadcasting: What is the contribution of publicly owned broadcasting to New Zealand\u0027s cultural and economic development?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00228b70dfa6090d4fcb91ec6b03e75f8816\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b70dfa6090d4fcb91ec6b03e75f8816\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister of Broadcasting):\u003C/span\u003E Television New Zealand is an important asset both culturally and economically. A recent survey indicates that the new charter environment has seen an average of 70 percent of New Zealanders regarding TVNZ favourably, and that its audience share is 71 percent. Of the top 100 programmes last year, 88 screened on TVNZ. The network is a leader in broadcasting. Television One broadcasts 46 percent local content and TV2 broadcasts 20 percent. It is also a very sound company. The television business made a profit of $29 million in the last financial year and the transmission business made a profit of $11.2 million. Advertising revenue of $305 million exceeded the company\u2019s expectations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022749a724d-1ef9-49cb-9ba2-2610403653ea\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215de1fb4c01b45d1a426703963264a57\u0022\u003EDianne Yates\u003C/span\u003E: What proposals has the Minister seen to change that situation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c711d54cf8254cf98a62f17ca0061b1a\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Last Wednesday proposals were floated to sell a number of State assets involved in the \u201Ccompetitive market\u201D, as it was put, with TVNZ at the top of the list. By Sunday, the originator of those proposals had hastily backtracked and had advanced the possibility of a fully funded, non-commercial Television New Zealand along the lines of the BBC. That would require advertising revenue of $308 million to be replaced by taxpayer funding. Already the dithering by Dr Brash looks a lot like that of the person he deposed last week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a342426f424a42bb2c28c1e82733c2\u0022\u003EHon Georgina te Heuheu\u003C/span\u003E: What answer can the Minister give to explain New Zealand\u2019s economic and cultural development through charter-prescribed programmes like Willy Nilly and Edwards at Large, when the New Zealand public does not watch either of those programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222df7c8a91aaf4907a6415c9838752f24\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Edwards programme was funded by New Zealand On Air, as was Willy Nilly, a comedy that a large number of people seem to find enjoyable. From my point of view, I say to, I think, the National spokesperson on broadcasting\u2014whose name is not yet on the website\u2014that the company itself, rather than the Minister, has to decide what it will put on air. We are here to ensure we get charter television; the company decides on the programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f3663d8c9cf4a09a2ab8a6030fbe137\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that our publicly owned broadcasting system would be able to make an even more significant contribution to New Zealand\u2019s cultural and economic development if it did not have to pay the Government a $7.8 million dividend this year; and why on earth does he not allow TVNZ to invest that dividend into making New Zealand programmes?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022857b78d9bec14bf0a1d8b070c0e10ea4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: Television New Zealand already invests a large amount of money in its own programming, but I point out to Ms Kedgley and the rest of the House that we do expect this company to operate in a commercial fashion, which means it should make a return. It will give a dividend, and over the next 3 years it will give a very good one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022642d76a9dbb84903aee4d3f1a1341e37\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that 80 percent of charter funding is being spent on Television One programming, does the Minister concede that publicly owned broadcasting\u2019s contribution to New Zealand cultural development is being delivered through only Television One, while TVNZ continues to utilise TV2 as nothing but a cash cow; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279cf903a703f4a34a0d2a148b31961a1\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: No, and I give one example. One of the requirements in the charter is for children\u2019s television to be developed. Television New Zealand has been doing that. Most of those programmes will play on TV2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e65415fe867442a48fee90b457fe7a8e\u0022\u003EDrugs\u2014Government Funding\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e36b51d25a248c9b49f6d38ce16d824\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Why did she say yesterday \u201CThis country has very careful mechanisms for assessing what drugs it is appropriate to fund, and I am not aware that those mechanisms and procedures have changed substantially in recent years, at all.\u201D, and further \u201CI suggest the member put down a question on notice with specific reference to the question of Alzheimer\u0027s drugs. It is this Government\u0027s determination to provide proper treatment for people across the range of conditions.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u00226d4256f549e54dbdafd571c8e78bf428\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d4256f549e54dbdafd571c8e78bf428\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Because both statements reflect what I believe to be the case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c304a18ee1a444a9b33fd809d899b3c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister tell me why Pharmac is going to commence an Alzheimer\u2019s drugs trial when at least 10 internationally respected agencies, including the Federal Drug Agency in the United States, have already done that, and their countries have made those drugs available; is it because she is involved in penny-pinching at the cost of people\u2019s suffering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb4342880387432da0e52c7395ef645f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: It is clear to me that the debate in Pharmac about this drug is not about money; it is about efficacy. It is understood by Pharmac and those on the Pharmacology and Therapeutics Advisory Committee who advise it that, yes, the drug can have a limited effect for a limited time, and they have not judged it appropriate at this time to fund it in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228ed1d7a1a1ee4b64b23452b01244be2d\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Having been a previous Minister of Health, why would the Prime Minister not answer the question I posed to her yesterday, asking why this Government will not fund drugs for Alzheimer\u2019s patients; and as these are the only drugs that offer any hope at all for patients with Alzheimer\u2019s, why will this Government not fund them as they are funded in Australia, Britain, and America?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e980c271cc384d65a3b185aa65fc29cb\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, it is not reasonable to expect me to answer a question on Alzheimer\u2019s drugs with no notice at all\u2014and there was no notice given of that question. Secondly, it is 13 years since I was Minister of Health. Thirdly, Alzheimer\u2019s is a difficult and debilitating disease, and I have no doubt that the member, because of her specialist knowledge, has treated patients with it. She will know there is no cure, and there is no decent treatment either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274378e07a34a4d818818ffe50d218bbb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Prime Minister make a statement in respect of those drugs that would be disowned by any other First World country, including Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, the USA, a number of Latin American countries, and Western Europe in total, were it not for the fact that she is basically heartless when it comes to people\u2019s suffering?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294b01c9689f64f62a67c415154a13d88\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I recognise Alzheimer\u2019s as an appalling and debilitating disease. I have recently had a relative die after many years of suffering dementia. I know how appalling it is. I am sure the Minister of Health will be very happy to make available to the member the advice that came from the Pharmacology and Therapeutics Advisory Committee, which was that the drug should not be funded because it had only a limited effect for a small number of patients for a small period of time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fcc8cc6943884e34881fea47511f5ac9\u0022\u003EHealth Care\u2014Resources and Monitoring\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0e36079b539448d9a7e7b15e550c315\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does the Ministry of Health monitor the amount of spare capacity in both the public and the private health-care sectors; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022ea88858059b14cec864765bb048ce0f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ea88858059b14cec864765bb048ce0f6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: Yes, the Ministry of Health monitors public capacity, but has no jurisdiction to monitor private provider capacity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222069d1cb18e24174902a9a21ca0aa3f8\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: How, then, can the Minister stand by her statement to the New Zealand Private Hospitals Association that \u201Cthe Government is committed to public-private partnerships\u201D, when her ministry has no idea what capacity exists in the private sector; or does this reflect her inability to do anything more than encourage district health boards to engage the private sector, leading to tragic situations like the one at Wellington Hospital recently, where several patients died after their operations were postponed because the hospital refuses to make use of available surgical services at the private Wakefield Hospital nearby?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227953f4a09794aed8790d222c7b04586\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Although I cannot refer to the particular case that the member referred to, I know that since 2000, district health boards have had in place a partnership protocol with the private sector that enables them to utilise any spare capacity in the private sector, in the interests of public patients.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228952d29951a14c749c41069731b34802\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Government have a \u201CState provider only\u201D ideology?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adf711a2f22941a292f4a3d554a36101\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: No. In fact, I will quote a letter from the Private Hospitals Association Chief Executive Officer, Andrew Blair: \u201CYou may be interested to know that Chris Clarke, the CEO of the Hawke\u2019s Bay District Health Board, and I showcased the successful public-private partnership that is evolving in the Hawke\u2019s Bay for the good of the community. We both acknowledge your support for such initiative. Thank you again for your ongoing support of the New Zealand Private Hospitals Association.\u201D That quote is from a letter to the Minister of Health, and states clearly the Minister\u2019s support for that protocol between the private and public sectors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229652bcb87dd640e1a2eed4cec39f645c\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that as of this morning there is only one neonatal cot available for premature babies in all of New Zealand; and will we now have to use spare capacity in Australia to cover this New Zealand public capacity crisis?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c540a29df0014689b7ac58eeeadcf39c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I was not aware of the situation that has developed this morning. It is often left to the public sector to carry out complicated procedures to protect the people of New Zealand. In areas of health, we have had to refer people to Australia on occasion. I am sure that the Government will do everything it can to ensure the best quality health-care for New Zealanders, both young and old. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247ed676e8fa546a484aa1ed9c014e294\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s answer that there is an effective public-private partnership in operation, and bearing in mind the comments made earlier that there have been patient deaths at Wellington Hospital this year because there has been an unwillingness to utilise resources at the nearby Wakefield Hospital, will he now inquire formally into why Wellington Hospital did not refer those patients on to Wakefield Hospital, where surgery could have been carried out successfully and their lives saved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222906a93b44794e9ca9ce6fb25033b7e1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I make a commitment to the member that we will investigate that situation. We are aware that there are sometimes problems in both the public and private sectors. The public sector is often left to pick up the pieces, and there have been situations at Wakefield Hospital whereby complications have arisen and Wellington Hospital has been asked to tidy up those situations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229899a94481af48e9a8bc4d559bbd9164\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Does that last answer not take us right back to where we started, in that these sorts of issues would be best dealt with if the Ministry of Health monitored spare capacity in both the public and private sectors, and treated the health system as one integrated system, rather than as one with two separate arms and legs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c31aeeafb544cccbdd26bddc6d6f14e\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that the successful public-private partnership protocol should identify spare capacity in the private sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002292a0e972c5954e1b83c8bfa1835da7fc\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a document about hospital cot status, showing that Middlemore, Waikato, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin hospitals have no beds for premature births.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecd78b3ac2b493ba8f50f4abc0ac641\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that statement. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e6dae9f1c54f4a0897d419f09a835a7f\u0022\u003EIraq\u2014Defence Force Engineering Unit\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278370d53d19e43c4bbcf181232e4d7e6\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Will the Government be increasing the defensive capabilities of the New Zealand Defence Force engineering unit in Iraq, in light of the injury of a soldier deployed there; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u0022c3aa26d3159b404f871100f6ab7c0402\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c3aa26d3159b404f871100f6ab7c0402\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Acting Minister of Defence)\u003C/span\u003E: No. Defence Force advice is that increased defensive capability, such as armoured vehicles or heavy weaponry, is not appropriate and would be inconsistent with the humanitarian and reconstruction role that Defence Force personnel are in Iraq to perform. It would be counterproductive to their ability to relate to those they are working with. Defence Force personnel, however, are appropriately trained, equipped, and armed for self-defence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022976874cea9e349239729472f62662c00\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government continuing with the policy of New Zealand troops in Iraq travelling in civilian vehicles instead of adequately armoured vehicles, such as the armoured Land Rovers the British have brought in from Northern Ireland; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022820d1bc479af4d8dbd3d879859c29fef\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is important that the member knows this was not a patrol; it was a routine drive in a convoy, and standard to the movement of personnel around this part of Iraq. The vehicle that the New Zealand officer was in was in fact a British vehicle, and he was in the company of civilians and other military personnel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adb85ea78efb41c08c420c79e11996c7\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister please inform the House of the nature of the tasks in which the New Zealand Defence Force engineering unit is engaged?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022027e76aec47d4e05857a59424f41d922\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: They are broadly reconstruction and humanitarian tasks. Specifically, our forces are working on restoring infrastructure. One of the most important jobs they are doing is providing drinkable water in schools and poor neighbourhoods, and I would hope that every member of this House appreciated the need for that humanitarian work and supported our forces there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1999eba16b4e9486d2ce185ae6f2e2\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: How can the New Zealand public objectively assess the justification for any change to our defence capabilities in Iraq when the only media permitted to accompany the Prime Minister on her recent visit to the troops was a State television crew, who were specifically instructed to break with convention and not serve as a pool camera for ATPM feed to other networks; and was the Minister aware of that instruction?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f91b6b8bed1a487fac345e706fd9cb19\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am informed that that simply is not true. Secondly, any media can apply to go to Iraq at any time to cover visits, but even that member would appreciate that when the leader of a country goes to a place that is inherently dangerous, one does not signal that beforehand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bebab453af43484abf2953c8a08e1df6\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Were defensive capabilities altered with the Prime Minister\u2019s visit to Iraq last week, and why was it necessary to keep her visit so secret, given the very public visits of Donald Rumsfeld, Tony Blair, and Colin Powell to Iraq in recent times?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fe8cf18c064a4372b2d6b20728937640\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I notice that the one person the member did not mention was Paul Wolfowitz. He signalled his presence in advance, and a missile went through his hotel as a consequence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51a8c32f31a45f9a8ed27b1c39eb2df\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think the Minister might have addressed one part of the question, but there was an earlier part that was of some interest\u2014certainly to me and, I am sure, to other members of the House. The question was about whether there was\u2014I forget the phrase that Mr Power used\u2014a rearrangement of defence forces in light of the Prime Minister\u2019s visit. I was very interested to have that part of the question addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de1082b1699740d9918bed540ab4a2bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister could well answer that part.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d8c253cfc6543c3b649321a877fb27a\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to do that. Yes, of course the leader of any country who goes to a war zone like that will have appropriate defensive support, as I had when I went to Afghanistan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fae0f2851476436d92dd074d4a179341\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Through you I seek some assistance for the Minister. The Minister is in danger, with the last answer he gave, of terribly misleading the House, for on CNN television it was made very clear that that missile was deliberately planned well in advance, and it was coincidental that Wolfowitz happened to be present in the hotel at the time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ecf5dcbe6404c36b6dfaca812bcb286\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. There is another way that the member can use those facts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022609b7de4c670493c861635cfcf7c7df3\u0022\u003ETeachers\u2014Information and Communications Technology\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b3e79f8dc244013b1781fd43e9b2edd\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is he taking to support teachers to develop their expertise in using information and communications technology to help students learn?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022321cfe007a0b4a17b7a2b667e61adb2f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022321cfe007a0b4a17b7a2b667e61adb2f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Ten teachers have been selected from over 50 applications to receive the first-ever e-learning fellowships. These fellowships give teachers the time and support networks to research how best to meet their students\u2019 needs in new and exciting ways. Over $4 million has been earmarked for 40 of these year-long fellowships over the next 4 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf17efc85de6476a8fea757eb9984b4e\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the development of teacher information and communications technology skills important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a7661ff9fa042249fdee53400d3141b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think it is vital that young New Zealanders have the skills that equip them for work in the 21st century. The one thing I do regret is that it appears that one of our main resources, Mr Maurice Williamson, is about to be given some real work to do in here, and we will not be able to use him as a leader in those programmes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287a298fe23574cbcbadff93f00bae435\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: When did the Minister realise that much greater expertise was needed, as will be developed by the 10 educators next year; and what funding allowances are available now for projects such as FarNet for seconded, qualified, and innovative teachers to have collective learning programmes developed for the project and other projects next year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230df73e2e3884c28a617051e831361b3\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have the specific amount of money that has been put into FarNet over a number of years, but it is enormous. Also, we are now up to an intake of 37 new clusters coming in at the beginning of next year\u2014roughly 400 schools getting additional professional development and other support. This Government is putting its money where its mouth is in this area, and I must say that the Northland principals have been very, very supportive of the extra resourcing they have received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c734bc26ab224af689bae076858714fb\u0022\u003EPetrol Excise Tax\u2014Diversion into Crown Account\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcd22af27abe4ae38092a84b94f510d7\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: Further to his answer to oral question No. 3 on 17 September, when does he intend making available the result of the economic analysis of diversions from the petrol excise tax into the Crown account?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00228b6296f22db8446eadeec763d89694fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b6296f22db8446eadeec763d89694fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I was referring to the surface transport costs and charges study commissioned by the Ministry of Transport. That work is nearing completion, with the final report due in the first half of next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225afc2ac456c74cf8a83d729c20db0adb\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the real analysis of the situation is that the motorist pays, for example, $27.25 in taxes for 50 litres, and that only one quarter of that, or $6.95, is spent on the roads, does the Government intend to continue to treat road users as cash cows whilst it introduces road tolling?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224d40ad51e89496182a974a1cce80c85\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly can assert that that figure is wrong. The member may cast his mind back to the period just before the election, when the Automobile Association, with the enthusiastic support of a number of political parties, stated that if the full cost of roading were to be covered by the motorist, a substantial increase in excise duty would have to be imposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c741a5ae08c848168a1c7937bbf86076\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister consider to be this Government\u2019s biggest con when it comes to Auckland\u2019s roads: the fact that over half of the 4.7c petrol tax is siphoned off to the Crown account; the fact that the Land Transport Management Bill is so absolutely hopeless that this Government has started work on new legislation before the bill is even passed; or the fact that this Minister claims that there are not enough construction companies on the entire planet to fix Auckland\u2019s problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b6bbbf6e3244e5189fdf7e09e351902\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: On the last point, that was a result agreed by the joint officials committee in respect of limits on construction. The member is entirely wrong on the 4.7c\u2014all of that money went into land transport.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bff8d27d1ea457e866f82a5283cd9c1\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that Government revenue for 2002-03 from petroleum fuels amounted to $995 million, and that income to the national roading fund from petrol excise for the same period was $601 million, which leaves a balance of $394 million, the majority of which would have remained in the Crown account; if not, can he clarify those figures?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a1ddcff647b437bbb6a947fe33b1453\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. As I understand it, that is the correct figure for the 2002-03 year. It must be remembered, of course, that the cost of capital for roading is not covered out of the excise duty. That is the reason for the answer I gave earlier.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e17566ce7ad2409684a8531f7b87a543\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that the Minister of Finance alone seems not to know that the current year\u2019s collections are in excess of $2.223 billion\u2014the purpose of which is to build and maintain roads, and for road safety\u2014yet $1.29 billion is being spent; why is the taxpayer and the road user being robbed blind by this Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ed2a77e6414492eadb55b6c0416ab1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The road user and taxpayer are not being robbed blind. Indeed, even if the member\u2019s assertions were correct, the taxpayer would be the gainer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022093c86905aa743d6ba2ea1666d88da57\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain the large increase between the $394 million referred to earlier\u2014diverted from the national roads account last year\u2014and the $573 million forecast to remain in the Crown account from fuel excise and customs duty income of $1.128 billion, as outlined in figure 2 of Transfund\u2019s 10-year forecast for 2003-04?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208a376bd2dc64340b5dadce2b2a1d6b0\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised that the first figure refers to petrol excise duty only, whereas the second\u2014the forecast\u2014refers to petrol excise and customs duty. Therefore that figure is inevitably higher than the first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222e26b508d8494118a023efc591fec498\u0022\u003EWallaceville Research Facility\u2014Closure\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022665b01f5e7004866a2be7078ff8218ba\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Crown Research Institutes: Given that AgResearch\u0027s Wallaceville research facility has been described as in a \u201Cclimate of fear\u201D, how does its likely closure fit in with the Government\u0027s aim of attracting, training, and retaining scientists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022 data-id=\u002294f9014ce92f4622a93b3daa630c8414\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002294f9014ce92f4622a93b3daa630c8414\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON (Minister for Crown Research Institutes):\u003C/span\u003E AgResearch\u2019s plans to progressively relocate staff from Wallaceville are part of a strategy to concentrate the institute\u2019s resources where they can be most effective. Because some research teams are less inclined to relocate than others, it seems likely that some scientists will relocate later, and some others not at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d8253836a7493c98724fe428bae688\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Does he accept that the climate of fear reported to be present amongst staff at Wallaceville is associated with widespread dismay and loss of morale, and will he work with and encourage AgResearch to act on viable alternative options that are available, whereby this internationally acclaimed, world-class research facility is consolidated and strengthened rather than closed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281749a530087415eb6e3180e5fa93bc0\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: I freely acknowledge the world-class science that goes on in Wallaceville, especially with some of the teams. But the member has overlooked the advantages of a progressive relocation. For example, he might wish to reflect that there is a strong science case to locate animal health research with veterinary teaching. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b1fcd89012476687a1adedad9c31a2\u0022\u003EH V Ross Robertson\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister have confidence in the board of AgResearch?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b710885ac964b28a05ba8eb46cd8d1b\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I certainly do. Restructuring plans are always difficult and sometimes traumatic for staff. I am satisfied that the board of AgResearch, and particularly the chairman, have made strenuous efforts to engage honestly and constructively with the staff at Wallaceville, and continue to do so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4030eb1-1b72-4bc3-b00d-7126013abc01\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222375f7ad76b048b98ab5bc3ba0332bc1\u0022\u003EStephen Franks\u003C/span\u003E: How can the citizens of Wellington be persuaded that this decision is not just an attempt to put resources into a more marginal electorate, instead of into a region where every seat has returned Labour members, given the Government\u2019s willingness to spend $25 million on Auckland University, and its unwillingness to reopen this case when AgResearch says Wallaceville is still making money and there is no prospect that it will not continue to do so?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225acf959779f64239a36e4506d2b8a81a\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: To the extent that relocation occurs, it will occur mainly to Massey University\u2014in one of the strongest-held Labour seats in the country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f01b48b1edd43cdb94a185e293ca013\u0022\u003EDr Paul Hutchison\u003C/span\u003E: Does he agree that the Wallaceville Animal Research Centre facility has forged strong links with businesses in the Hutt Valley, such as AgVax Developments Ltd, Schering-Plough, and Industrial Research Ltd, and that there are strong opportunities for further growth with the Institute of Environmental Science and Research and Victoria University, but that these opportunities will be seriously affected by closure; why does he not encourage AgResearch to rethink, consolidate, and enhance Wallaceville?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229c0eba1d-17a6-44e2-a9b3-2e2535339570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d8d1946276f4c939d2c97e0b52b6b64\u0022\u003EHon PETE HODGSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, which is why, for example, Dr Ken McNatty and his team are more likely to stay here than leave.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f9ca3ea9a1114c8aa5fbf11311fce9c6\u0022\u003ETe Whare Whakapikiora o te Rangimarie Trust\u2014Tax Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022532ec5b85beb40fa8a93276a11baa007\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Did the Ministry of Health have any legal liability for the $74,146.96 exclusive of GST tax bill owed on the koha payments made by Te Whare Whakapikiora o te Rangimarie Trust to voluntary staff; if not, why did the ministry pay the tax bill for a health trust whose contract it had not renewed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00222229d55d642143f1b4d467816e657b9f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222229d55d642143f1b4d467816e657b9f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health), \u003C/span\u003Eon behalf of the Minister of Health: No. The Minister was advised that the responsible manager with appropriate financial delegation decided to pay the outstanding tax liability of the trust directly to the Crown, because had the trust been aware of the tax liability at the time the contract commenced in 1995, the contract could have reflected the full costs of providing the service. It was not until 2000 that the Inland Revenue Department ruled that tax was liable on the koha payments to voluntary workers and required the backdated amount to be paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022109094c5e86045709e6f8a274115b283\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Deputy Director-General of M\u0101ori Health, Ria Earp, have the appropriate financial delegation to make a payment of this amount when there was no contractual obligation to do so; if so, who provided Ms Earp with the authority to make such a discretionary or ex gratia payment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022453ca99440ed46ecb255f11765b3c8ec\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that she had that appropriate delegation, and that the Inland Revenue Department made the demand on the Ministry of Health for the outstanding debts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225058b4eb564340978d2be687797e9272\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister did not answer the other part of the question about who gave the delegated authority. I think that is the key part of that question. Perhaps he would like an opportunity to answer it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ac2de4c63f64ca6964ec26cd61e50d3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I heard the member specifically ask whether she had the delegated authority, and the Minister gave an absolutely straight answer to that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930ada3b56c044df8ca89a324f5e80c3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226219f8f160b64926aaab0aadf7f4929d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I will not relitigate this particular point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228145521a321e448781c3f5a63443f935\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I perfectly understand that. I know you would not allow that, and I would not test your patience. On this side, we are a bit confused because the two answers appear to be contradictory. On the one hand, the Minister said that there was no contractual obligation to pay the amount; on the other hand, he said the Inland Revenue Department had presented the bill to the Ministry of Health. It does make it problematic for us in our next supplementary question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273aaa58cabd648a3bdad4d6f4b2b1a4a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That may well be, but I am not here to judge the quality of the question or the answer. It was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5030dbf064a4b0a9133df94e82501a3\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: What is the difference between a koha payment to a voluntary worker and a salary, and can the Minister assure this House that the practice of making koha payments to voluntary workers has been stopped; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022225e835dbf3945afafe4bc8d1e27c4e4\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that the Inland Revenue Department made a judgment on the situation with regard to koha payments to voluntary workers. My understanding also is that no further direct payments are being made from the Ministry of Health to the Inland Revenue Department for such situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022734427aae88a46b7ade1402020d76903\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Is it policy for the Ministry of Health to pay any outstanding tax bills for non-government health providers, or if this was a special case, what was special about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245aeffe75b6d49c5addb75d350327bc7\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: When the Ministry of Health took over responsibility for this matter in December 2000, it indicated to the trust that its contract might be terminated. Therefore the Inland Revenue Department was uncertain about where it should receive payment for the outstanding debts. That is why it went to the Ministry of Health.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b0b7d5764904ebdafdaa18605f50650\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: What health outcomes did the $688,000 paid to Te Whare Whakapikiora o te Rangimarie Trust for cultural and spiritual healing achieve, and is the Minister prepared to tell this House that the health outcomes for M\u0101ori were better than if the same amount had been given to Hastings Hospital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9c2ebf8be9046ffa67d214baa666dd6\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: That is a fairly wide question, but I am happy to say that this Government is committed to providing funding for M\u0101ori health providers. I quote Mr English, the former member of the National Party: \u201CM\u0101ori health providers contribute the social and cultural capital that make services appropriate.\u201D He went on to say: \u201CAs you know, real partnership is about more than just sitting down and talking to people. For Government, it means doing something hard, handing over power, and thereby empowering.\u201D This Government commits to that positive statement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222801afba34264baab679e091b9bb55d3\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eaf515e0306c41c588ddda6880919dbf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Will the member pleased be seated when I am on my feet. The Minister went too far with that particular quote, and Mr English is still a member of this Parliament. Is that what Mr Hide\u2019s point of order was about?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229afa30d728334f7595f0ae8b74b6a8ff\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it was. It was also to make a second point that the question was about health outcomes, not about what Bill English said. We have still not had any statement about the health outcomes achieved by that trust.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa87a02b88eb440b93695a8cf14ff8b1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question was addressed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002293e5b403d9314b8d9f6e98eeab72b289\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226eb6665fe5514d16973943edd13f6fee\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022 data-id=\u002203019b015ae34f69a57e92a7c60a3fe3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203019b015ae34f69a57e92a7c60a3fe3\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. As I lead off for the Opposition parties in this first general debate since being elected as leader of the National Party I am conscious of the comments made in recent days in a number of media outlets about my relative lack of parliamentary experience, and about the bleak prospects of my forging a career as a stand-up comedian. May I briefly say to those critics that while I always try to achieve professionalism and competence in this Chamber, I did not embark upon this career with any aspiration of becoming some sort of antipodean Billy Connolly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI should also say that if this Government were to continue in office there is little about New Zealand\u2019s longer-term economic and social prospects that I regard as in the least bit amusing. I am heartened that many New Zealanders share a sense of urgency that we should address these important issues before it is too late. There is a mood for change and this spin-doctoring minority Labour Government is failing miserably to recognise this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EI acknowledge with a mixture of pride and humility that my party has chosen me to provide leadership at this important time. I am not in the slightest troubled that Mike King and Marc Ellis have nothing to fear from my appearance on the public stage. But I will be very troubled indeed if, by election day 2005, the need to face up to some key issues facing this country has not moved New Zealanders to see off this arrogant Clark Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EMy commitment to New Zealanders, as leader of the National Party, is to deliver on five key goals. First, we have to start narrowing the gap between our living standards and those of our cousins in Australia\u2014a gap that sees every Australian getting nearly $200 per week more than the average New Zealander. If we do not narrow that gap we will not have the health care that Australians can afford, we will not have the roads that Australians take for granted, our teachers will not get the salaries that those in Australia earn, and New Zealand mums and dads will increasingly see their kids and grandchildren growing up in Australia. We will end up as a distant Tasmania to the Australian mainland. That is not what I want, and that is not what most New Zealanders want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003ESecond, we have to ensure that every child, whatever his or her race, whatever the affluence of his or her parents, or whether he or she lives in Auckland or in rural Southland, has access to quality education so that every child comes out of the school system able to read, able to write, and able to take his or her place in a modern society. At the moment they do not, and that is a disgrace. Unless we do very much better we will never have a healthy society, and we will never have a society where everybody can get a well-paid job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EThird, we have to end the creeping paralysis of welfare dependency. It is surely a scandal that, at a time when the economy is buoyant, 350,000 working-age adults and tens of thousands of their children are dependent on hard-working New Zealanders for a handout. As a country we currently spend $20 million per day on social welfare\u2014nearly $1 million an hour\u2014365 days a year. For the sake of those receiving that money, as well as for the sake of those paying it, we have to fix that system and give all able-bodied New Zealanders the dignity of contributing to our society. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003EFourth, we need to head off the dangerous drift to racial separatism in New Zealand\u2014a drift that this Government seems intent on encouraging. We must deal fairly and finally with historical grievances, but then ensure that all New Zealanders, of whatever race or creed, are treated equally before the law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E Finally, we need to ensure that all New Zealanders feel secure, and that means not just dealing firmly with crime, drugs, gangs, and vandalism, but also ensuring that our relationships with new friends in Asia and old friends in Australia, the UK, and the US are put on a firm footing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u00225dd5a104d5a243a9a18acef8371ffba5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225dd5a104d5a243a9a18acef8371ffba5\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E For those New Zealanders who are sitting at home wondering who that was, let me say that Michael Laws, who was a member of this House for a little while and a member of that party for a little while, described Dr Don Brash, who has just sat down, as an inoffensive, if elderly man lacking either constituency or charisma. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EOver the last little while, watching the National Party has been like watching one of those awful television reality shows. In this case I think the title would be When Tories Go Bad. The change of leadership from the hapless Bill English to the equally hapless Dr Don Brash took the outer limit of haplessness up to stratospheric conditions. Do not take my word for it. Listen to someone who should know. Jane Clifton said: \u201C\u2026 this is, by a commanding margin, the most bunglingly, vandalously conducted leadership spill \u2026 ever seen. The coup\u2019s result \u2026 has been dangerously compromised by the manner of its implementation. Could these plotters have made themselves and, more important, their party, look more desperate, unstable and indecisive if they\u2019d been secret Labour Party operatives?\u201D. That is what Jane Clifton said. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWe have to ask whether Don Brash is secure, now that this hapless coup is over. We know, from the inside, that Bill English thought he had the vote\u2014so much so, he was over the road celebrating with his mob before the vote was taken. We know that at least some people changed their vote from what they said they would do. We are told that the vote was 14 to12, but no one can confirm that. We know that so much stabbing in the front, ineptitude, and stupidity has gone on, that at least one member is now confined to his bed. We know that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EWhat we see is not a planned coup. National simply panicked. But at least now we have somebody who is honest. He is honest, and we know what the programme is. The programme is to scrap the unemployment benefit and minimum wage laws; make the unemployed stand outside post offices waiting for work; raise the age of entitlement to superannuation; sell assets; privatise health and education; and cut taxes for the rich. If one earns over $100,000, one gets $81 a week from Don Brash. If one earns under $38,000, one gets nothing from Dr Brash. At least that is honest. What are people saying about this? What are the reviews on this? These are the reviews. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a2084c41bb044b548ab9f2fa35c80e89\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that he must not interject while he on his feet and moving up and down the corridor. [Interruption] Members are only taking away the Minister\u2019s time. Please be seated. I let a lot of interjection go on, because there was a bit of interjection in the first speech, but not that amount. The number of interjections will now cease dramatically, or else members will be leaving the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229022b4216d54a75959f299d47514f00\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: What are the reviews of that performance? John Armstrong said: \u201CThere is a painful lesson for the National Party in the latest fracas over the leadership: if you promote show ponies\u201D\u2014I think he put the word \u201Csick\u201D in there\u2014\u201Cfrom political nowhere straight on to the front bench, you\u2019re asking for trouble.\u201D Brian Rudman said: \u201CBrash brings with him a baggage of extremist economic policies that have been rejected by the mainstream political parties. It\u2019s as though the mistakes and excesses of the past 20 years have passed him by unseen.\u201D \u201CHe is\u201D\u2014states the Sunday News\u2014\u201Ca pointy-headed ex-banker. He\u2019s the kiss of death.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThose are not good reviews for the reality show so far. One would have to ask why they have done it. Why have the Tories gone bad? Yesterday, Deborah Coddington referred to the fact that Don Brash and the ACT party, as she put it, will get the country moving. That is the clue. It is also reinforced by the words of Fran O\u2019Sullivan, who said: \u201CThe Welcome to Auckland party being hosted by a millionairess is another indication of Brash\u2019s ACT party in drag.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u0022f31837e457464f6b9801c73827e4d79d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f31837e457464f6b9801c73827e4d79d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I begin by expressing my deep sympathy for the National Party. All those people down the years since 1936 who once worked with that great party will be in tears today. I predict that within 6 months there will be signs around all the rugby paddocks saying \u201CBring Back Bill\u201D. This debate is about humbug, hypocrisy, and cant. Labour is attacking National, and National is attacking Labour, but they are both the same\u2014Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber. The member was reading out the list of achievements of the 1987 Labour Government. It sounded so familiar. They are both arrogant, born-to-rule, we-know-best parties, and they are trying to take New Zealand back to the two-party system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ENational, we know, remains a deep and divided mess. However, the Prime Minister is becoming known for her callous attitude towards ordinary New Zealanders. She has no heart. The poor people of Afghanistan have had Russians, the Taliban, and now the Americans. What have they done to deserve the terror of Helen Clark paying a visit, all dressed up like a desert-based bee-keeper? There she was, on a secret mission\u2014so secret that no one in to her office knew about it. What did the Afghans do to deserve her making that visit? On her first day back in the House yesterday she was asked about a condition that besets elderly people\u2014and sad are the families and caregivers who have to look after those people. That condition is called Alzheimer\u2019s. A former Minister of Health knew nothing about it. Whilst all First World countries are financing drugs to ease the lifestyle of those people and improve their period of life and their quality of life for years, and sometimes for decades, she claims that they do not work. She knows more than the Federal Drug Agency of the United States and all the equivalent agencies in Europe. The Prime Minister is more interested in financing weirdo, loony-tune policies of her minority groups. However, she cares not a whit for ordinary New Zealanders who are suffering and who should get hospital treatment in this country, but have to go to Australia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E On her first day back in the House she demonstrated that she has but one objective; it is just power. She has no principles. There would not be a former Labour leader who would recognise this present Labour Party. There is, after all, no longer a democracy in New Zealand. Thanks to the Greens and United Future, Labour is now running the country like a dictatorship. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ELet me ask members a question. What did ordinary New Zealanders have to say about prostitution? When were they ever asked? What do ordinary New Zealanders think about prostitution? Were they ever asked? No. [Interruption] The United Future members voted for it. They thought it was a good idea.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221009edca4dda4656b6a0d033b97ccf21\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will address the Chair, not his own back bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e10a83a8e1f4c25a9c799d1caa78d47\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240f5aff1824b4aafb940bc8754f923f1\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is coming off the member\u2019s time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f74897c16fa46d5a12c932e0523c53c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Are you telling me I cannot turn round in this Chamber?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f97c950bf2d4463a5be9375d0c73899\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: You can, every now and then, but not continuously.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa8b62c900b546b998152131de2374bc\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: This is called a debating chamber, and I want to finish my point of order and not have you chipping in halfway through.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6acc0507c694d7e8df37500093d6671\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e318d310c9742cdafc9ca7ed29e94d9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I am making a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266c8615fc0aa49c1954ac6f1c0aa9bec\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now be seated. I make the point that I allowed the member\u2014and I have stopped his time now\u2014to turn round for a continued length of time, but according to our Speakers\u2019 rulings, turning round for a lengthy period of time is not in order. The member must address the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ccbaeb5b41ac4861bad4f2f5c668d0d8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I will. What did ordinary New Zealand people have to say about same-sex marriages? What did they have to say about the foreshore and seabed debacle? What did they have to say about the treaty industry? What did they have to say, and when did they get a say, on the Privy Council? What did they have to say about genetic engineering? They were never asked. This is an arrogant Government\u2014a totally arrogant Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d38d7beb44e4e1ab7c010936419cc27\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: They got an inquiry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221679ef99ee2e4cdd88ec057b745bc5e8\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh yes, they got an inquiry, OK. The Government has set up a group to do an economic analysis, excepting the report is a year after the Government abolished the moratorium. This is an arrogant, \u201Cwe know best\u201D Government. In 1999, the people of this country, in a huge referendum, voted to have 99 MPs. They voted for stiffer penalties. Were they listened to? No. What does Helen Clark think of that? She thinks they are not worth the time of day. But I say to the Labour Party that I know, and my party knows, how flaky its vote is. We know that New Zealanders get no salvation from that side of the House and from over here, but we do know\u2014and mark my words\u2014that by Christmas we will have shown them what New Zealanders really think.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022251727ad0725457689408613d7544680\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022251727ad0725457689408613d7544680\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E What we often hear in these debates is people pulling each other apart. That is not the way to build a robust and strong New Zealand. United Future, under the excellent\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220dec719a7ac346d192cc0ffbbe38ad37\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is entitled to be heard in reasonable silence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002237ceaf3de6f143d794fa229bb0ebc1f8\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I can speak up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022138ae7dd93e64b1aa9fc0d8de8925682\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. Whatever he might think, I will not be allowing that sort of rabble to continue. Members will be leaving the Chamber. I want Mr Adams to be given a reasonable hearing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218fb0da0d43246ffacf64509afe141be\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: United Future, under the excellent leadership of Peter Dunne, is endeavouring to pull people together to build a better New Zealand. So if members have something constructive to say, they should say it. But members should not just get up in this House, at great expense to the hard-working New Zealand taxpayer, to parrot on and to pull people down. Most New Zealanders are very sick of it, and I do not blame them. This type of behaviour is totally unproductive, and it is past time that we put a stop to it. To pull people together requires someone in the middle ground. That middle ground is called the centre, and United Future is a true centralist party. Today I want to draw two groups together. The first group is the employers, who are a very good and extremely hard-working group of people, and, in most part, are people who care for New Zealand and also care for those whom they employ. Employers want to provide for their employees the best pay and working conditions that they can afford. Employees, for many small-business owners, are almost part of their family. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe second group is the unions. Again, this is a group of people who, in most cases, care for New Zealand and care for their members. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a33ffc3f336e4dfcb1b524cff3a74866\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There is too much noise. There will now be no more laughing and inane comments. The odd interjection is OK, but that is it. The member has been unreasonably restricted from putting his point of view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226175796c863f4371ae208b12548a1bce\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With respect, you say there should not be any more laughing. Can we laugh quietly?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5c689e753fa4b71917309fd4be9e86b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. Mr Peters knows that I enjoy a joke, just as he does, but I do not enjoy inane, loud guffawing, and that is what I am referring to. The member must be able to be heard.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fa9180f17f7d48c7a61bcbe4fd6f49b4\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c370eb577f44fcd986721f3028643e0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I am not having any further points of order. Please be seated. Please carry on, Mr Adams.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cf3d28a85b24454594dbc73bd42be894\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f68d67f22f0a4db3bf7bbec786b89d62\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It had better be a proper point of order, or else Mr Mark will be leaving the Chamber. What are you going to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e1d8fa422e848a79f8307f00c891d6c\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking you to consider this point. Whilst I understand your serious desire to have an orderly debate, one of the issues we have discussed\u2014in fact, you yourself have made comment on this in the House\u2014is that one of the things that incites what one could only describe as, not discontent, but as bringing discredit, is people who stand and read a speech. There have been great orators in here, like David Lange.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226113e814a9654e308720aeba43c2cdbb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b38e4a88fe3445f9622237f8be8d5fe\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: The member might as well table his speech and get out of here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a1eb1cf57ef4dbe9386b9d0bb4c3116\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now leave the Chamber. I am not having him standing and shouting while I am on my feet. Please leave the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003ERon Mark withdrew from the Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cc39541a60042ed8178bc674c8e50be\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: My question today is: why do these two groups openly fight battles against each other, when in most instances they are trying to achieve the same thing? United Future is going to make a huge impact on New Zealand, when the New Zealand public really grasps what a centralist party is all about. Believe me, they are beginning to understand. If unions genuinely want to see more take-home pay in workers\u2019 pay packets, which I believe they do, and if employers genuinely want to see greater productivity, then they both need to get together and lobby the Government to supply United Future\u2019s call for tax cuts, because this then becomes a win-win situation for them both. The only one that wins with an increase in the wage rate, is the Government, as it then collects more tax. But with employers and unions pulling together for tax cuts, it becomes two, the employer and the union, against one, the Government, and the chance of success has to be far higher. The workers will be happy as they will have more disposable income, and the employers will be happy as they will not have an increase in costs. Productivity could increase by taking on more staff, thereby boosting the economy. The Government wins in the end, as companies should become more profitable, and therefore the tax take will still increase.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E That is why we need less extremism and pulling other people down for political gain in Government. What we need more of is plain old common sense. It may not be sexy but, by jingo, there is an air about it that I believe every hard-working, middle-of-the-road New Zealander would agree with. It is better to work together in order to achieve a common goal that works for both parties, than to fight each and achieve little. Unions and business people should put their weight in behind United Future and support our consistent cry for tax cuts, because we believe unions and business deserve better value for effort. Together we will build a better New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u00228870dd753bf540948545eed9f369a983\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228870dd753bf540948545eed9f369a983\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E We have had the sermon, and now we are about to have the lesson! We have here a shonky payment. Precious health dollars have been diverted to pay the tax bill of a public trust. The trust is the Te Whare Whakapikiora o te Rangimarie Trust, which is based in Napier. The Ministry of Health wrote a letter to Mr Apera Clark, the chair of the trust, on 8 January 2002, inviting him to forward to the ministry an invoice for the final payment of $90,665.33, GST inclusive, and asking him to confirm that he would receive the money by signing the letter and returning it to the ministry. Some stipulations were attached to the letter, one of which concerned the fact that the ministry had a tax bill from the Inland Revenue Department. The trust owed the tax department $74,146.96. Once the ministry received the invoice, it would pay the outstanding Inland Revenue Department tax bill on behalf of the trust. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThat raises many questions, which the Minister of Health, to date, has been unable to answer satisfactorily. Why was a final payment being made to the trust when there was no contractual obligation to do so? The Ministry of Health had already written to the trust to tell it that its contract would not be renewed. The reason was that, in August 2000, an audit of the trust had been carried out by the Ministry of Health. Of the 64 criteria that the ministry tested at the clinic run by the trust, it failed 39. Those failed criteria included such things as basic hygiene and whether the practitioners were writing down the dosages of the medications they were dispensing, which are very basic things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe spending was also in question. The ministry discovered that money was being spent, not on providing health services to the M\u0101ori people of Napier for \u201Ccultural and spiritual healing\u201D, as the trust was contracted to do, but by the chairman, and his wife, who was co-signatory of the trust chequebook, on personal rent, power, groceries, dog food, spa pools, digital and Sky television\u2014not just one, but two digital television providers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220aedb30d0c3c435cb29e9765ac48dd4f\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: Sounds like a hotel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a0a02d71a0d4f038ff63900b6fb7bfe\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. It was not five-star\u2014the member should have seen the mess. The money was also spent on petrol, and cases of muttonbirds. The question arises as to whether the ministry actually cares how precious health dollars are being spent. It seems that it does not, because the ministry did not shut those guys down when they failed to meet 39 of the 64 criteria. What did the ministry do? It gave them a second chance. Mr Clark is a clairvoyant, who provided traditional M\u0101ori healing. He provided spiritual and cultural healing to the M\u0101ori people of Napier. Any other health practitioner would have been shut down immediately and been struck off by his or her registering body. Did that happen? No. Mr Apera Clark, who was the chair of the trust, was responsible for helping to draw up the guidelines for traditional M\u0101ori healing in 1993. Then, hey presto, in 1995, when the Ministry of Health agreed to have a pilot scheme for traditional M\u0101ori healing, who should get the contract but Mr Apera Clark\u2019s trust? That is exactly what happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThe main problem here is that the tax has been paid by the Ministry of Health. Why did the ministry continue to pay Mr Apera Clark $2,076 per week for 10 months after the audit that I have just described, when he was running a shonky business? The answer is clear. He had a tax bill that needed to be addressed. The Ministry of Health knew about that bill and invited him to submit an invoice to it so that the bill could be paid on his behalf. That trust received special treatment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00222da416f991f5495cab390068fecab9b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222da416f991f5495cab390068fecab9b5\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E The flags at the National Party headquarters will be flying at half-mast today. Why? Because we are witnessing the demise of the once-proud National Party. That party is now an endangered species. We are watching the demise of the blue-billed Mogadoned yellow-bellied flightless Tory tit. We are witnessing the end of that endangered species. Very, very shortly, the National Party will need a Department of Conservation recovery programme, in which children around the country draw pictures of the blue-billed Mogadoned yellow-bellied flightless Tory tit and send off postcards, in order to save it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EDon Brash is now the new leader. There are heaps of unanswered questions roaming about this place. It is a great place for unanswered questions. One of those questions asks why National Party members were all called back last Friday night at 8.30. That has never been heard of before. I will tell members why. There was whispering, gossip, and people who knew stuff talking to people who did not know stuff. Everybody was talking. In fact, what happened, so we are told, is that the vote was 14 to 12 in favour of Mr English, and it was reported back to the caucus as 14 to 12 in favour of Dr Brash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022039892efb7ba41b2bdce47118d8cccac\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: Treachery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7c32a0664b543d39cf5a477842a0697\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Treachery is what has caused the Nick Smith outburst. That is what got them back at 8.30. That is why there is so much bitterness and so much division over there, and it has not ended. My prediction is that Gerry Brownlee will be the deputy leader before Christmas. If the huddles going on around Parliament at the moment are anything to go by\u2014he shakes his head but he knows this deep down\u2014my prediction is it will happen by Christmas. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EThe problem then will be that these two, Dr Brash and Mr Brownlee, are ideologically opposed. Don Brash is last century\u2019s man, dragging New Zealand backwards, trying to introduce the failed old-right policies that the country rejected at many, many elections. He is Ruth Richardson in drag. Everybody knows that. He is ACT\u2019s ninth MP, and everybody knows that. What was his first king-hit speech yesterday as the leader? It was a debate on whether the Land Transport Management Bill should be called the Land Transport Management Bill. That was a huge one! Of course, we know that Don Brash is an honest fellow. If he says he will cut taxes for the rich, he will. That will mean that anyone earning under $38,000 gets zero, zippo, and members of Parliament get at least $100 a week extra. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EIf he says he will raise the age of superannuation entitlement, he will do that, because he is an honest bloke. If he says he will sell State assets again, he will sell State assets again. Let us put that up against Gerry Brownlee, who said there are those who say National is inextricably linked to the ACT party. He said they had their heads in the sand and all they could expect is their backsides to be kicked at the next election. I can tell members\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c82105ac5b754cbfb165b078d6040163\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Say that again. It was pretty good.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225148dbf137a64a649ffabf37e9342f88\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: He said that those who say the National Party is inextricably linked to ACT have their heads in the sand so far, and that all they can expect is their backsides to be kicked at the next election. I am looking at a lot of backsides\u2014a lot of Tory backsides\u2014that are going to be kicked at the next election. All we can see now is the National Party racked with division. It does not know where it is going to go. It has no leadership, no vision, no policy, and no philosophy, and it will have its backside kicked at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003EWhy has Shane Ardern, for example, been replaced by David Carter? What does he know about agriculture that Shane Ardern does not know? He cannot even drive a tractor. Those Tory backsides are going to be kicked, and kicked good, at the next election.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022540f6bc5e5af477abb7a0c9e84d8c4d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022540f6bc5e5af477abb7a0c9e84d8c4d6\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green): \u003C/span\u003EWe in the Green Party cannot, of course, remain unmoved by last week\u2019s ascension of Don Brash to the leadership of the National Party, and although we congratulate Dr Brash on his new position, I feel honour-bound to sound a note of warning, as other colleagues have been doing this afternoon, about what his elevation might mean for low-income workers, unemployed people, and beneficiaries in this country. It is not a secret, but I think it is important that all voters remember that for the last decade Dr Brash has been promoting, among other things, further sell-offs of State-owned enterprises, tax cuts for the rich, deregulation of the labour market\u2014including getting rid of the minimum wage\u2014and an extremely right-wing manifestation of welfare reform.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn perhaps his most famous utterance on the subject since he became a member of Parliament, he advised the good people of the Orewa Rotary Club in January this year that abolishing the unemployment benefit could not be \u201Cdone in isolation, but it might well be done in conjunction with other measures, such as having local governments become employers of last resort\u2014offering a job to anybody who turned up at, say, the local post office at 8 a.m., with payment for that day\u2019s work at the end of the day, in cash.\u201D This declaration seems to have been made in blissful ignorance of the facts that, firstly, post offices as such no longer exist; secondly, local councils around New Zealand tend to be extremely wary of taking on job creation on behalf of central government, having been badly burnt by such schemes in the 1980s; and, thirdly, if such a scheme were applied to all job seekers registered with Work and Income, putting it into practice would cost thousands of millions of dollars more than the dole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003ESubsequent comments on welfare reform from Dr Brash reveal a slight retraction from this position, possibly through the efforts of his colleague Katherine Rich, who does have some real understanding of her social services shadow portfolio. However, her new leader continues to make no bones about his commitment to time-limited benefits and to forced mass work-for-the-dole schemes. This is scary stuff. Although I know there are plenty of people out there who still think these things are a good idea, I would have thought someone who had been heavily involved in economic matters in the 1980s and 1990s would know better. For example, is Dr Brash not aware that a report written by the National Government\u2019s own officials towards the end of its time in office showed that even the limited work-for-the-dole scheme in place at that time simply was not achieving the goals that Government had set for itself? Are he and his National Party colleagues not cognisant of the results of time-limited benefits in other jurisdictions, where the real consequences are transience, begging, homelessness, family break-up, mental and physical illness, crime, and ultimately\u2014for some\u2014death? The idea of limiting the amount of time someone can spend on welfare in his or her lifetime to, for example, 2 years or 5 years may sound tempting to someone on $100,000 or $500,000 a year, but have those people considered the reality of someone ending up in a situation where there is literally no means of support for that person and his or her family?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThese kinds of answers to unemployment and poverty trip off the tongue in Parliament and in the Rotary club, but if they were ever implemented under a National-ACT Government they would bring the 1930s Depression revisited, with bells on. Mass forced work-for-the-dole schemes and limits on access to welfare will mean, in the end, a society in which rich and poor are driven apart even further than they are now, and in which crime, prostitution, and begging will become the only means of survival for many people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EDr Brash is right about one thing. We do have over 300,000 people unemployed, and a lot more should be done about it by the Government, but the solution is not stopping the unemployment benefit or imposing workfare. Rather, it lies in creating real jobs at real wages for all of those who need them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAlongside all of this, National\u2019s new leader appears to be trying to bribe his old mates back into the fold by offering tax cuts to the rich and a chance to loot more State-owned assets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f5cf1c9cef574839898ad13d107d2356\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I should not have to point out that the use of the word \u201Cbribe\u201D in the context of an activity of a member of Parliament is quite unacceptable, and should have been picked up by the Chair much more quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c79f42476f9d4a00a621518e24aafbdb\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I apologise. I did not hear that. If the member said that, would she please withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223877212bb3d64661b97f895f80716f66\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I hope all those New Zealanders who think the National Party under Dr Brash is the shape of the future will have a little rethink about what kind of country they really want to live in. Instead of pandering to corporate greed at the expense of those who already have too little, National should, if it has any social conscience at all, consider supporting policies like ours\u2014full employment as a primary goal of economic policy; the first $5,000 of income to be tax-free for all New Zealanders; a universal child benefit restored for all children; and a benefit system that is reformed, but in order to create less inequity, not more. We want to move forward into a secure, more fulfilling future for all New Zealanders in the 21st century, not back to the 1990s or the 1930s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00220e3d728df3a34ccdb10b7f4fe51e99b3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220e3d728df3a34ccdb10b7f4fe51e99b3\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to thank the Leader of the Opposition for making his views so clear. I am one of the members of this House who have often asked National members what the National Party stands for, so I am particularly pleased that Dr Brash makes no bones about what National policy is. I think that will be strongly welcomed by voters, who have also been wondering what, if anything, National represents, apart from it being a party that is prepared to sell thousands of State houses then complain that there are none. I think most of the members of this community will find it really useful to hear what Dr Brash says.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI believe what Dr Brash says, and voters in New Zealand should also believe what he says. He says that the most impressive MPs outside National are Rodney Hide and Richard Prebble. It is easy to see why he cannot find any in National. He wants further privatisation and further asset sales. On day one he started talking about selling TVNZ, the remaining power companies, and Air New Zealand. That will be a policy that is new to, and welcomed by, New Zealand voters! Dr Brash has been very clear that he would raise the age of entitlement for New Zealand superannuation. He would give tax breaks to his friends the rich, and give nothing to lower-income people. He supports a capital gains tax and, perhaps most important of all, he supports the continued privatisation of health and education services. I think we should all be very grateful that he has been so unequivocal about the new difference between the National Party and the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EI think most New Zealanders now regard the National Party as a hapless bunch of two-timers. It took Dr Brash two goes to get rid of Bill English. It took 2 minutes for him to start talking about selling assets again. It took about 2\u00BD days for the new deputy to get 2 weeks leave. As far as we on this side of the House are concerned, it is just too good to be true!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003ELet us talk about the strategic brilliance of it all. Let us talk about how National members waited until Friday evening to have a crisis that had been building up over 3 days. Let us talk about how they waited until Friday evening so that they could fill the front page of all the Saturday papers\u2014the only newspapers that people in this country read\u2014with their great secret. Most people know the expression \u201Cday of the long knives\u201D. This party has given the language a new saying. This was, and will go down in history as, the \u201Cdisastrous day of the Dick Long\u201D. It was his finest hour. I congratulate Dr Brash and his team on the strategic brilliance they have brought to the National Party. I shall repeat the Jane Clifton quote in the current Listener that we have already had read to us: \u201CNational could barely organise a coup [plot], so why would voters trust them with a country? \u2026 Could these plotters have made themselves and, more important, their party, look more desperate, unstable and indecisive if they\u2019d been secret Labour Party operatives? The kindest thing you can say is that they genuinely thought they could save the National Party by destroying it.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWhat did actually happen? I defer to the extra information shared by my ministerial predecessor, but I have heard a slightly different story. I believe that the actual scenario last week was that Bill English had 20 votes the day before, and that was why his numbers men were over at the Back Bencher celebrating\u2014because they knew that they had stitched up the 20 votes. What happened? Well, they trumpeted it just a tad too loudly. There were people in the National caucus who were so disillusioned and so frustrated by the lack of leadership that they decided, when it came to the vote, to give Mr English a bit of a fright. So one or two of them changed their vote. Unfortunately, it was just one or two too many. It was a monumental mistake. They wanted to send a message to Mr English\u2014they wanted to give him a fright\u2014but they gave him the wrong message. They simply stuffed it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003EWhat does it mean? It means that the National Party is led by a minority leader. It means, in simple terms, that of the people who sit around Dr Brash fewer support him than support Mr English. Let us look at some of those supporters. Richard Worth will not be around after Rodney Hide rolls him in Epsom. David Carter and Lockwood Smith are great assets; they are despised by the rest of the caucus. What thanks did Georgina te Heuheu get for her support? She is in the third row now. Mrs Rich is a good supporter: she supported Jenny Shipley, she supported Bill English, and now she supports Don Brash. Frankly, with friends like that, and with a majority opposing Dr Brash, he should be very, very worried.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022c051fdfe19764386bd5e1fe1ec9aae4d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c051fdfe19764386bd5e1fe1ec9aae4d\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (National\u2014Ilam):\u003C/span\u003E The arrogance and stupidity behind the content of the previous speech is why Don Brash will be the next Prime Minister of New Zealand, immediately after the 2005 election. Mr Benson-Pope outlined in the House today very clearly why the Labour Government will lose the next election. The Labour Government will lose the next election because it has idiot Ministers like Paul Swain, who came into the House today and told New Zealanders who are earning $38,000 a year that they are rich. People like Mr Benson-Pope stood up and said that Dr Brash\u2019s decision to raise the income level of New Zealanders will somehow be such a huge lurch to the right that New Zealanders will reject it. Let me tell the House that New Zealanders are poor when compared with their Australian cousins, and this Government celebrates that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EEarlier this afternoon another incompetent Minister, Steve Maharey, gave an explanation of why he is known as the \u201CMinister for Institutionalised Poverty\u201D. He is the man who presides over the lives of the 400,000 working-age New Zealanders who derive their incomes from the benefit. Those 400,000 New Zealanders take $1 million a day out of the pockets of people earning $38,000 and less. If Labour politicians think they can stand on the floor of a factory and convince New Zealanders who work hard in difficult conditions that Labour is out there working for them, then they have it wrong. Those people want aspiration in their lives. They do not want Helen Clark telling them what they can have, what they can do, and when they can do it. They will listen to Don Brash telling them that they deserve better, because they do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOctober 28 was the day on which the Labour Government began to lose its grip on Government in this country. It was noticeable, when Don Brash stood up this afternoon, that all of those on the Government benches were full of nervous twittering. Some of them decided to grandstand and then walk out, and we know that they then hung around the lobbies to hear the bad news. Others on the other side of the House sat glum-faced. Darren Hughes just smiled because he is a young man, and he knows that in 2025 he will still be young enough to be a young Cabinet Minister the next time Labour gets anywhere near being in Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI want to ask a couple of questions this afternoon. Do any Labour politicians think that telling New Zealanders it is OK to be $200 a week worse off than Australians will win them a vote? Do any Labour politicians think they can tell New Zealanders that we can no longer afford first-line drugs for simple conditions like Alzheimer\u2019s, that that is good for people, and that they should therefore vote for that? The answer is no. Do any Labour politicians think they can go into the suburbs of this country and tell people that they cannot make choices about their children\u2019s education, and that they simply have to put them into the institution that the State decides is best for them? The answer is no. It is those points that will knock those guys over.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThat is why people like Mr\u2014I cannot remember the guy\u2019s name; he comes from Hamilton; he comes here only every second term, and he is having the next term off\u2014and people like \u201CDazza Hughes\u201D, the great white hope, will be gone. He will do a \u201CPhil Goff\u201D and be on his backside next time. That chap from Dunedin\u2014the guy that people still think is on the city council\u2014David Benson-Pope, he will be gone. He will be out. As for the member from Whanganui, she should get the cardboard boxes into the office now and start filling them, because she will be gone. I am afraid it is all over for my friend Paul Swain too. When New Zealanders wake up and realise that Helen Clark is saying that their current relative poverty, compared with Australia, is OK, and that Don Brash is saying we should lift our aspirations, grow our economy, and see the incomes of average working New Zealanders grow, there is no doubt whom they will follow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis Government lost its grip on 28 October. Don Brash will be the next Prime Minister of New Zealand, and I look forward to serving in his Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad6564b4db1b44b28ea0a067fbb45df6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad6564b4db1b44b28ea0a067fbb45df6\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I say to the ladies and gentlemen out there in radioland that that was \u201CBig Ger\u201D, Gerry Brownlee, who, when I saw him on television the other night\u2014and I am not criticising any member who is not in the House, at all\u2014reminded me of the line in that famous play: \u201CFriends, Romans, countrymen \u2026 I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him\u201D. \u201CBig Ger\u201D really enjoyed the fact that there was somebody else feeling far more miserable than he was on that day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EI also say that the mood in the National Party is glum. Although the special atmosphere in Parliament may not seem that important out there in the big wide world, in politics the feeling of party members is incredibly important to the morale and spirit of a party. I have to say that I have never seen that lot over there, the National Party, so dispirited in the entire time I have been in here\u2014in fact, for the entire time I have been an observer of politics, and that is more than 40 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7b611cf67104a9cbe2dbbb937beb19e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That can\u2019t be right. The member looks so young.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248a3d1aece7e41a68a555bc252a10a1a\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: I know it does not look like it, but it is true. I have to say that the mood over there is remarkable. I am commenting on it because it really is significant. There is no spunk. There is no fight. There is no verve. There is no get-up-and-go. It is no wonder I referred to Mr Brash as \u201CMoga-Don\u201D, because I know that that is absolutely how those members feel and how they present themselves at the moment. In fact, I suggest that Mr Brash might like me to take him to Smithfield market in Britain. An experience at Smithfield market could give Mr Brash a helping hand in elocution lessons.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c084ebe8d5c144b790759102b7a32897\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: For television?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250f7506497314909aa3ec7adb04332f0\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: My word, it takes them a long time to drop to a joke over there. They are not quick, are they? I would be very happy to take Mr Brash to Smithfield market. In fact, I would enjoy it because, by golly gosh, listening to him today, he was as flat as a flounder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288bc88d477da4134bea9b5232dd3acd2\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: How much is flounder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ba1b7bc71da44f3afe34b69c22b3ace\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: Flounder? Five bob. Any more bids on five bob? I would not give that party over there two and six at the next election. They are, to coin another phrase, dog tucker. So they would not be worth even two bob.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003EOne of the other flat-footed things they have done over the last 48 to 72 hours that concerns me is that they have completely abrogated their responsibility towards the women\u2019s vote. They have completely given it away because they know they have only a miniscule level of it anyway. I have to say that those Tory women over there, who think they got to where they are today all on their own, are just proving how selfish and self-centred they are and how unable they are to think towards the future. No woman on that side of the House got where she is today because of her own talent, charm, and good looks. Those women got there because a good group of women in New Zealand fought for many, many years for women\u2019s rights, women\u2019s pay, and better conditions for women\u2014and that is why we need to have women spokespersons, advocates for women, instead of the selfish attitude that is portrayed by those members. The only woman on the National front bench mirrors the image of Ruth Richardson. She is almost her namesake. She is Ruth Richardson\u2019s acolyte. She is a younger version and is not quite as tough as the previous one, but she could grow that way. That appointment is not encouraging to me, either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003ENational Party supporters out there in the real world must be cringing. Sure, there has been a tiny lift in their vote\u2014we accept that. We knew that was quite likely to happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf66b35a0df1453cb4e505f744e72be5\u0022\u003EOpposition Member\u003C/span\u003E: So death catches up!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd461b5c331546ae8839b224c049fab4\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS\u003C/span\u003E: Well, it is actually a case of  \u201CDead Man Walking\u201D. Members know it. We can read the body language. We can see the mood. We know that those members over there are not full of the joys of spring, at all. I tell those members that a niche party, a pressure group, is not enough to be elected as a Government, and that is all National is\u2014a pressure group.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022558e17f0e8bb4aed850cbf9f2ed05496\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022558e17f0e8bb4aed850cbf9f2ed05496\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I have not heard a noise like that since I was in standard 4 and my friend ran his fingers down the blackboard. That was an appalling display of articulation by that member. The allegation that members on the Opposition side of the House are doing nothing for the women\u2019s vote is just appalling. Murray McCully has been more than making up for that in recent days, and I am confident that we will deliver on that promise without too much difficulty, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI just say this to Government members: Dr Brash provides a clear, studied, and articulate vision for this country, and I want those members to know one thing very, very simply. Dr Brash is above the smarmy, backhanded comments that come from Dr Cullen in this House, and above the niggling and nastiness that come from the Prime Minister during question time. Dr Brash is a man who has one thing on his mind, and that is: what is best for New Zealand? That is why members on the Opposition side of the House will wait with patience until the 2005 election, when Don Brash will become Prime Minister of New Zealand. As Gerry Brownlee said, it will be a pleasure to serve in his Cabinet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat is the Government going to do in the meantime\u2014between now and 2005? Well, the Prime Minister articulated her vision leading into the 2005 election yesterday, when she said it was not the policy of this Government to put things right. Well, is that not the truth? Nothing has been put right by that Government in the last term. Members need only to look at what is going on with regard to our defence forces. Troops are being deployed as an instrument of foreign policy, to make up for gaffes that the Prime Minister has made, and to cater for a domestic political market that is out of step with what is going on in the international arena. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI say to members of this House that Helen Clark is getting ahead of herself. The arrogance that surrounds the Prime Minister and her small cabal is absolutely clear, and it is patently obvious to the voting public. She is now far too important, apparently, to deal with domestic political issues, and simply swans off at short notice around the country, leaving Dr Cullen to deal with every domestic problem that she leaves in her wake. What are those problems that the Prime Minister leaves in her wake, as she travels around the country? Well, rural schools are being closed by Trevor Mallard. Trevor Mallard is out there shutting down the lifeblood of rural communities in New Zealand. Auckland roading is in crisis, and what does the Prime Minister say about that? She says: \u201CIt is not the policy of this Government to put things right.\u201D That is just not good enough. That type of throwing away of responsibility just will not be tolerated by the electorate. Rates are climbing in local and rural districts because this Government\u2019s new local government legislation has forced massive costs of consultation on to local government, and I can tell members that pensioners in my electorate are furious with this Government and the implications of its local government legislation, in terms of their rates rises. That is just not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe know there is a problem with the Labour Party when Steve Maharey kicks off the debate for the Government. We know there is a problem when king hitters like Martin Gallagher are held back to let Steve Maharey kick off the debate, and fine, well-meaning debaters like John Tamihere have to just sit in their cabbage-coloured shirts and say nothing. It is just not good enough to have the likes of those Ministers leading debates. Where is David Parker? He is a man, rumour has it, who\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002250ddeac50e2c406ea5772692fdb58dab\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s campaigning.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022941bd3f66d6e494cb179e58d1ebcd1bf\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: He should be campaigning, I tell Mr Hughes, and I will tell that member why he should. Allegedly, David Parker recently had a conversation with the chairman of Dunstan Hospital, who, when explaining the fact that the whole board was about to resign, apparently said Mr Parker had no idea how difficult Katherine Rich was making his life in Otago. Let me tell David Parker and members of the Labour Party that she has not even started yet. The Otago seat is gone, and it will come back to National at the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhatever happened to Clayton Cosgrove?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c36476e000443e188bc39c2bd2ae180\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Who is Clayton Cosgrove?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225eda65b85e504fa09527aefd8989e21c\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: He was such a promising member in the first term. Now he is confined to the back benches, far from the circles of influence, and is frustrated about his ability. He is knocking on the Cabinet door, asking whether anyone is in there and whether he can come in. He is being told no, he has to stay outside until there is a change of regime and Phil Goff comes back in. I say to Mr Cosgrove that once Phil Goff is leading the Labour Party, his chance will come again. Mind you, at least Mr Cosgrove is attending functions in his electorate\u2014unlike Darren Hughes, who is renowned for no-shows all over the Otaki electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022 data-id=\u00221f3def035d314b05a3f0a99d6fcca5e3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221f3def035d314b05a3f0a99d6fcca5e3\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki):\u003C/span\u003E The member should ask one of his colleagues about that. It is a pleasure to follow Simon Power, who at age 35 is already yesterday\u2019s man. Simon Power has twice turned down the deputy leadership of the National Party, and National will not come knocking a third time. Other members like John Key will be lining up to take that place. Simon Power thinks he has the deputy leadership coming to him, but he has turned it down once too often. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThis weekend the Labour Party goes into its annual conference in Christchurch, and what a story this re-elected Labour-led Government has to tell. Our party will be talking in Christchurch about leadership and partnership. It will be talking about growth and innovation, about fairness and security, about opportunity for all, about strong public services, and about building a confident nation. We have a story to tell that the National Party can only dream of, because it is in chaos everywhere, with not a vote to count. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EWe have seen an extraordinary change in the leadership of the National Party, and we saw an extraordinary display during the general debate today. The election for the leadership was an oops election. It was \u201Coops\u201D, because National members could not believe, as a caucus, what they had done when they had finished\u2014nor can the country believe it, any more than those members do. The brat pack walked into the caucus room with 20 votes in the bag, but only 12 turned up in its favour. The brat pack members all betrayed and backstabbed one another, and as they sit together in this Chamber they are trying to work out whom they can trust and whom they should not trust. It seems there were 52 positions on the leadership, which was a shame when there were only 26 votes. The only person who was upfront about his support was Maurice Williamson, and he was not even allowed to vote. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EBut 14 votes do not make a happy family, and National members are now about as united as the Spice Girls, having elected \u201CIce Spice\u201D to be their leader. Once again the National Party has panicked about its leadership change, as it did when it changed from Bolger to Shipley, from Shipley to Bill English, and now from Bill English to Dr Brash. If it were an episode of The Simpsons, we would be calling Dr Brash \u201CMonty Burns\u201D, the wealthy geriatric who runs a nuclear power plant while haplessly plotting the overthrow of the world. How fitting it is that Dr Brash is surrounded by other characters from The Simpsons. I note that Gerry Brownlee is doing a very good impersonation of \u201C\u2018Sideshow\u2019 Bob Terwilliger\u201D. It is very good that \u201CNed Flanders\u201D, in the form of Bill English, has been allowed to stay on the front bench. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EBut what have we seen so far? We have seen a policy of asset sales and a policy of tax cuts for the rich. For people earning less than $38,000\u2014[Interruption] Dr Mapp says that $38,000 is not much money. He is right about that, but in the constituency that I represent, 65 percent of people earn less than $20,000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022518ead21315a438f9357c137ab882e3f\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Do something about it, then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e51108aa314447259ca2c04c1084042d\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES\u003C/span\u003E: We are, but we will not make those people work 5 years longer and make them retire at 70, while giving no tax cuts except to National\u2019s rich mates. That is not a policy prescription that we sign up to. How rich it is of National members, particularly the list member Katherine Rich, to say that the Government should do more about the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, when the National Party wants to give tax cuts of $774 a week to New Zealanders who earn half a million dollars. Then they cry crocodile tears about not having strong public services. That party has a record\u2014absolutely! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EDr Brash said he wanted to work with the devil to change the Government. I know that the ACT party is unpopular, but I am not sure even we think that Rodney Hide or Richard Prebble is the devil. The ACT party was not offended by that, of course, because yesterday we saw a fawning Mr Shirley and a sycophantic Ms Coddington get up and pour praise on Dr Brash, while National members sat there like stunned mullets, wondering whether they had done the right thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EMr Power said in his speech how proud he was of Dr Brash. It is a pity he did not vote for him, though. Simon Power said Dr Brash is going to be a great leader, but he did not even vote for him. It is just ridiculous. That is what was happening when Mr Power was speaking. We have read all sorts of comments about Dr Brash. One of the things he said in the paper, when he was asked about his personal friendships, was this: \u201CI have found in recent years that I have allowed my close friendships to atrophy\u201D. Atrophy! This is a man who is so right wing he has even restructured his social life. He made his mates redundant and told them not to come around on Monday\u2014and they think he is a great Kiwi friend! But oh no, this guy is going to be fantastic out on the campaign trail! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EApparently, the answer to Mr English\u2019s leadership was simply to promote Mr Carter. Members of the brat pack will be delighted to know that all they had to do was to elevate somebody called David Carter, and they could have ruled the National Party for years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe other interesting thing has been the role of Mr McCully. I have always found Mr McCully to be a very fascinating character. National Party members revere him. Mr Power looks on him as an older brother, and they joke around. National members revere Mr McCully as some sort of great strategist, and I cannot understand that. Mr McCully\u2019s strategies saw National with 47 percent of the vote in 1990, and 20 percent of the vote in 2002. Kevin Roberts, a peak-performing unit, was a strategy that went nowhere. Putting in Bill English as leader was a strategy that went nowhere. Organising the countercoup with the brat pack to keep Mr English in the job was another strategy that went nowhere. Yet National Party members say Mr McCully is their strategist\u2014their man\u2014and he is ace. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EIt is John Key who is laughing all the way to the bank. He is another first-termer who is going places, but he could not wait to get into the Dominion Post today. In the first feature on John Key, on page A15, he said what a centrist he was, and that he was far more in touch with middle New Zealand than Dr Brash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223be39d7892da4d95ada92a8187caccf5\u0022\u003ELand Transport Management Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aa62111d57354c8c90ff75b4352bd162\u0022\u003EIn Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000321\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 4 November.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002202fe36d5721d4ed984dcb17d2b9f159d\u0022\u003EPart 3  Administrative provisions relating to Transfund and Transit, and miscellaneous provisions (continued)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00221716be1d4d4f41c7812ee4a1ac879608\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221716be1d4d4f41c7812ee4a1ac879608\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The Land Transport Management Bill sounds great but, as we have found during the Committee debate, it will do nothing at all to solve the transport needs of New Zealand. In fact, it is a politically correct, woolly-woofterish sop to the Green Party. Anybody who reads this bill will see all the Greens\u2019 provisions in it\u2014provisions that most New Zealanders do not know anything about. They think their petrol taxes actually go into building roads and improving the infrastructure of New Zealand. When they read this bill, or when it is enacted and takes effect in their local area, they will find out it is quite different.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ELet me give an example. One of the bill\u2019s provisions is that Transfund, Transit, local authorities, and every approved public organisation must consider the needs of persons who are transport disadvantaged. One of the rules of passing good legislation is to make sure it spells out very clearly what it means. I ask the Minister of Transport to explain what \u201Ctransport disadvantaged\u201D means. Does it mean somebody who does not have a footpath? Does it mean somebody who does not have a bicycle track? Does it mean somebody who cannot catch a bus, or a train, or a ferry, or who does not have a car? Maybe it means somebody who has a Skoda instead of a different car. Maybe it means somebody who cannot drive. The problem with this provision is that local authorities will have to try to figure it out. They will have to go through endless rounds of consultation, litigation, or whatever it takes actually to figure out what \u201Ctransport disadvantaged\u2019 means.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI can tell the Minister in the chair, Mr Swain, that local authorities are already sick to the teeth of the costs this Government has imposed on them. The Local Government Act, the Gambling Act, and the Prostitution Reform Act are examples of legislation that puts millions and millions of dollars of compliance costs and consultation costs on the back of ratepayers up and down New Zealand. The problem is that ratepayers do not know that, because all that stuff has happened in just the last couple of years. It is disgraceful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u00229cccf1e63e0b4080a9ef15f7768523a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cccf1e63e0b4080a9ef15f7768523a9\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E When the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee worked through Part 3\u2014which is quite a substantial part of the bill\u2014the submitters raised a couple of issues that I would like the Minister of Transport to consider.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EOne relates to clause 70, \u201CObjective of Transfund\u201D. It is quite important that the Minister notes in the Committee today that the select committee heard a near-unanimous view from submitters that they wanted Transfund to have the objective of considering the economic benefit of its spending decisions. I know that the Minister is prone to say that that is all about benefit-cost ratios, which depend on how many people have been killed on a piece of road, and that the Government is not going to do that, because it means a new road is built only if someone has been killed on the old one. Well, that actually was the case; if someone was killed on a dangerous corner, that meant that corner might be more dangerous than one down the road, and Transfund might spend some money on fixing it. That makes common sense. What the Minister is careful not to tell New Zealanders is that Transfund still takes that into account, even though it does not use a benefit-cost ratio\u2014that where a road is dangerous it will fix it. The Minister nods. I do not think for one moment he would stand and say that just because someone was killed there, we will ignore it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI say to him that, given that the Government does not want to go back to the benefit-cost ratio, he should at least include in clause 70 words to the effect that Transfund should have regard to the economic benefits of any spending decision. Otherwise, we will get into the situation whereby Governments will be accused of pork-barrelling. Already, Labour has appointed its campaign organiser and president to Transfund. Already, Mr Mike Williams, the person who sits down and decides how Labour will hold the Otago seat, is deciding how Transfund will allocate its money. [Interruption] Jill Pettis, of the marginal Whanganui seat, says: \u201CDon\u2019t you wish that National had thought of that?\u201D. I say to Jill Pettis that I do not believe that Transfund should be using its petrol tax money as some sort of large, Labour Party re-election slush fund. That will now be able to happen, because Transfund does not have to have regard to any economic impact at all. It can just decide that the seats that are marginal will get the bridges and the new money. I, for one, believe that is exactly what Labour will do. That is exactly what Mike Williams will do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThat is exactly why the Minister will not put economic benefits into this clause. It has nothing at all to do with his going on about someone having to be killed in order to get a piece of road done. The Minister wants to ensure that Transfund has the ability to make political decisions. That is absolutely outrageous. I tell the Committee and that Minister that we will undo that. Roading decisions should be based on the economic benefit, not on the political benefit for the Labour Party. That is why we will be strongly opposing Part 3. I would like the Minister to take a call and explain why he will not support an amendment that stops political decisions from being made by the board of Transfund; that stops the Labour Party president and campaign manager from making decisions about where large amounts of Government funding for roading are allocated. I say to the Minister that it is outrageous that he has allowed that to happen. Never before has a party political president and campaign manager sat on a board, dishing out funds, like Mike Williams is doing with Transfund. The Minister could put a clause in here to stop it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0e74316764d490e8bed12b7b7dbe696\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: I bet that\u2019s a first.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da7d448a63854aff8f30e98924c1cf78\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: It is a first. I know that Jill Pettis supports it. She thinks it is the best way to get roading projects done in Whanganui. She tells the people in Whanganui not to worry about that bridge, because she can get it done. It is a marginal seat, and she can ring the Labour Party president and get it done. [Interruption] Well, she asks about the \u201CRoad to Nowhere\u201D, or whatever it was\u2014the road that Sandra Lee had money spent on, even though it was not a public road. Taxpayer money went on that road because of a political decision that the Minister made in order to keep the Alliance in the tent. He spent taxpayers\u2019 money for political purposes on that road, and he will do it again to try to buy David Parker the Otago seat. He will try to do it again to buy Jill Pettis the Whanganui seat.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWe will be watching where that money goes. I suspect the money will not be going to areas that are of economic benefit for this country; it will be going to areas that are of political benefit. That is outrageous. That is why the system was made transparent. The one sneaky, underhand thing that this bill does is to take his political appointments one step further. It says to the Labour Party president and campaign manager that not only is he appointed\u2014and paid\u2014to sit on the board of Transfund, but he is able to make decisions about where the money goes without being accountable on any economic criteria at all. He just has to have his eyes on the politics of it, and that will keep this Minister satisfied.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI would like the Minister to take a call. I bet he will not take a call and deny it. I bet the Minister will not take a call and defend the Labour Party president\u2019s appointment to Transfund. I bet the Minister will not take a call and defend the Labour Party president\u2019s allocation of money to projects all over New Zealand, based on political patronage\u2014not based on the economic benefit of roading. That Minister will not do that, and that tells us a lot. [Interruption] Jill Pettis is already saying she wants a new road. We will see whether she gets it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI also want to raise the issues in Supplementary Order Paper 165. There is a large Supplementary Order Paper with a range of clauses to be read into this part. Once again, this Government behaves in this sneaky sort of way: it has submissions, listens to everybody, makes decisions, and reports back, then races off and does some sort of deal with the Greens, and throws that in without anybody having an opportunity to have a say on it. That is what this Minister has done with this Supplementary Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI want the Minister to get up and explain why, on Part 3, we have five pages of amendments about, largely, the transitional provisions. The committee went through those transitional provisions very carefully. The officials agreed. So why do we have an amount of backsliding from this Minister on those transitional provisions? Why have these amendments been written? Is it so that Labour can have a quick review of some of the funding decisions, just to make sure? Do Mr Williams and the Minister want to have a look, just to make sure that the money is going to their pet political projects? Is that why these transitional provisions are being rewritten in this way? That is what it looks like to me. I would like the Minister to take a call and explain those issues to us, as well. He has not taken the chance to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EFinally, I note the provision that says a board member may well be on both Transfund and Transit, at the Minister\u2019s discretion. I predict that the Labour Party president and campaign manager will be dishing the money out and deciding the projects. He will be on Transfund and Transit, deciding which project gets the money. That is political patronage at its worst.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u00226857f78774344ea19609ae3a3000bca1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226857f78774344ea19609ae3a3000bca1\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Senior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022a9738b314bd54ef6b5bc81ff44330b8e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a9738b314bd54ef6b5bc81ff44330b8e\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E That was quite an enlightening speech from the Hon Roger Sowry. He talked about building roads for the economic benefit of this country. I remind members that National was in power for something like 9 or 10 years before Labour came in.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d6c92227a7f46c9b25b29f5c5ae6e74\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: Nine long years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c61844fb77494597f6b852498da0dd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Nine long years\u2014and it did nothing. In fact, a former Minister of Transport stood in this Chamber yesterday afternoon and made two claims to fame. One was that he had split Transit into two, to become Transit and Transfund\u2014one being the practical side of roadmaking and the other being the funding side. In the commercial world, that would be laughable, and I question the need for a two-pronged attack, so to speak.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EHis second claim was that he produced a book: Better Transport, Better Roads. I read the book with interest. As I recall, it illustrated quite clearly that road design, road fault, was responsible for 15.1 percent of road deaths in this country, yet the National Government did nothing\u2014so much so that the Minister, the Hon Maurice Williamson, would not even turn up to the select committee to talk about the book! At that time I was a new MP, in my first term, and I was really disappointed by that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWhat we in this country have to do\u2014and this bill will not do it\u2014is to identify the problems, identify the roads that need to be maintained and the roads that need to be built, specify the timeframe in which we need to do all of that, determine the cost, and work on a system that will provide the finance. First and foremost, New Zealand First advocates that the excise tax that goes from petrol into the consolidated account is used for the betterment of roads and the motorist. We accept that there might be some justification for not using all of it; there might be a genuine reason why some of it should be diverted to the consolidated account, but we want to see the rationale. We want the report that the Minister referred to some months ago to be tabled so that we can understand the argument. We believe that Transfund should have the ability to borrow. I believe that it has it now, but this bill seems to prevent it. If the funding is adequate\u2014if we can get that 18.5c from the consolidated account and use it on roading\u2014then our problem is well on the way to being solved. If it is not adequate, then Transfund should borrow the money, and we will repay the debt against future traffic volumes. Traffic in this country is increasing at a reasonable percentage, and so is fuel use. We all know that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf all of that fails, or none of it stacks up\u2014but that is our first option\u2014then New Zealand First is prepared to look positively at a regional fuel tax. In other words, we could ask the motorist to pay a bit more to accommodate the concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce9182c2f52a4b64929e5af6c794c4e5\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: How much?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228a23ec39218d4e69b15a99c39c11beb3\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I keep coming back to it, because I do not think that member over there quite understands things: first and foremost, we want to use the 18.5c that goes from the petrol motorist into the consolidated account. We believe there is a legitimate reason for using it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226844e8101e7b4f11b0dbd2efdbe837e4\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: When the member\u2019s leader was Treasurer, what did he do then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd2e2576848048019a09d0132642f669\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the Minister asked what my leader did when he was Treasurer, but she was eating at the time. I am not sure whether members are allowed to eat in this Chamber.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe6177d741a4b37bd0bc2b5c18247c6\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: I\u2019ve got a terrible cold.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f7b5875c20c4977899dae93c12404bd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think she can eat, whether or not she has a cold. My leader did transfer some money from the consolidated account into the roading account. I do not know how many times we have to tell her that. In fact, he transferred 2.1c a litre from the consolidated account into the roading account. The intention was to continue doing that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f09e2b744504279b22fc67eac567591\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: How come that didn\u2019t fix it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba04f24441204e77bd686e28aca01257\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It was the first movement from the consolidated account to the road account for years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002237e4ff517c4f4c718740332b5b818375\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237e4ff517c4f4c718740332b5b818375\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Junior Whip\u2014Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022 data-id=\u00227ee84e5b663a4b1d87d6a90c59b26bb9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ee84e5b663a4b1d87d6a90c59b26bb9\u0022\u003EHon MAURICE WILLIAMSON (National\u2014Pakuranga):\u003C/span\u003E I want to carry on the little theme I began to develop last night about the tool-box. I think the Mayor of Auckland said it as well I have heard it said. He was looking for a tool-box with a range of features and functions to fix Auckland\u2019s problems. Auckland\u2019s problems have, without doubt, got to catastrophic levels. Major congestion used to be at peak times and at certain locations, but now it is anywhere, anytime\u2014and if it rains, it is everywhere all the time. In Auckland, the traffic just locks, blocks, and stops. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EWhen this Government came to power, it was given a pretty damn good blueprint to start from called Better Transport, Better Roads. Because of its ideological views, the Government said some of it was too right wing. I warned the Minister last night\u2014and I keep warning him\u2014that if he wants to get stuck into me about the right-wing tolling projects we were proposing, I have wonderful quotes from some of his senior party people, including his Prime Minister, about how dreadful and evil it was to have toll roads, and this bill has some of it. However, 4 years down the track\u2014and, believe me, Auckland could not wait 4 months to progress this; when the Government came to power in 1999, its first priority should have been to pick up on that and move\u2014we see an emaciated looking bill called the Land Transport Management Bill entered into Parliament, then gutted by Green members because of their opposition to the motorcar. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EI found that opposition the most bizarre part. When I was Minister, I went to a number of public meetings when we were standing at election time. Green members would show up in their caftans and sandals and get stuck into me about why I was not funding public transport better, and about how the car was an outrage. I used to get someone in my team, or I would do it myself, to wait outside the hall and watch people arrive. I used to ask the question at the end of the meeting: \u201CCould I have a show of hands please? How many people came to the meeting tonight using public transport?\u201D I never had one hand go up, even though we sometimes met in a hall right on a major bus route with a bus stop straight outside. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EGreen members used to say: \u201CWe couldn\u2019t, because we\u2019ve got to go on to another meeting.\u201D What they were saying was: \u201CIt\u2019s not us\u2014it\u2019s them.\u201D There is some nebulous \u201Cthem\u201D out there who should not use their cars, but not \u201Cus\u201D, because we have another meeting to go to. I tell Green members that everybody in Auckland has another meeting to go to. They have to pick their kids up, go to soccer, or to the supermarket. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe motorcar will be the central product for delivering transport in Auckland, regardless of any pie-in-the-sky Green members who think that cycleways or walking tracks will fix the problem. Yes, I would like to see a move towards making public transport better, and quality public transport will help fix the problem, but it is not the panacea it is made out to be. Jeanette Fitzsimons and other Green members would have us believe that if we did this bill properly, everyone would give up their cars tomorrow and walk to work. It will not happen, and this bill does not provide anywhere near the tools that are needed to fund it properly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThe public-private partnership provisions of this bill are the weakest and most ineffectual I have ever seen. Larry Baldock told the House yesterday that he knows lots of people who will get into public-private partnerships, yet he was challenged over and over again to name one company that says that if this bill goes through, it will put money into a public-private partnership. The silence is deafening, as members can hear if they listen carefully. It is the flutter of the wings as the chickens come home to roost. This bill does nothing. It does not give us the tool-box of tools. John Banks says so, employers and manufacturers say so, and the Automobile Association says so. To go through the list of interested parties, we would have to seek an extension of the whole debate into tomorrow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224a11ce4e-9fb3-4738-b0be-5a9f81d975da\u0022\u003EThen there is the next bit with regard to consents. My God, it takes so long to get consent for anything now\u2014even something ordinary! But if the Government wants to fix Auckland\u2019s major arterial routes, it has to circumvent the old Resource Management Act processes, or in 10 years it will still not have got those consents and there will be outrage from Auckland. If members of the Labour Party think the public do not want to pay for this, I challenge any one of them to come with me on a Friday night at 5 o\u2019clock and stand in somewhere like Stanley Street as the cars are trying to get up on to the motorway. They are locked, blocked, stopped, and going nowhere. I challenge them to come with me and tap on all the car windows and say: \u201CWould you pay 5 bucks cash right now to be home within the next 10 minutes?\u201D. There would not be a car that would not say yes. This bill does nothing to fix that problem.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5c8fbe43349420a92228154ad6ca676\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5c8fbe43349420a92228154ad6ca676\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u00227a5c481d31b94c3d9defcc332f5ee836\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227a5c481d31b94c3d9defcc332f5ee836\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I took another call because I was really hopeful that the Minister would take the chance to take a call. We are now in a situation where Ministers decide that they will just not bother answering questions or talking about their legislation\u2014it is all far too much trouble. This Minister is far too important to be bothered by answering questions around the detail of Part 3. He was too important to come to the select committee to explain the policy decisions behind the bill, so he did not do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f905e7a5d0b4487b9b8d036e72c02163\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: I wasn\u2019t invited.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dce48fc1fff74f9387ed6a36c374f43c\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: That is because the Labour members voted not to invite him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267cc5a92956e444b95c5b20a33679f96\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It was a majority decision.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc102b6e90ff43fbb6851eb51117e607\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: It was a majority decision, so all the Labour members voted not to have the Minister attend. I can understand that, they know him better than we do. They know his performance, and they probably felt it was better to have the officials explain. But now the Minister has an opportunity to stand up on his hind legs and tell members why he is allowing board members to be on both Transit and Transfund boards. I want him to explain that so that New Zealanders understand. Just as the Labour Party appoints its campaign chairman and president\u2014who happen to be the same person\u2014a person can also be on Transfund and Transit, and we should know why.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a081b5ad77b04dcb838d9d3e9a357693\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Write to him and he might respond.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f803b1d7d1d4e8fb7329b9f99f6cf5a\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: We know that that does not happen. I actually wrote to the Minister a few weeks ago and told him that if he wanted sensible land transport legislation, National would work with him and vote with him, and we would not have to be beholden to the sort of round-the-back-of-the-bikeshed deal that he has done with the Greens. The Minister has not even bothered to respond. I know from dealing with the Minister\u2019s office on Land Transport Safety Authority and other issues that people bring to me that it takes somewhere between 4 and 5 months to get a response from the Minister\u2019s office. It is not one of the quickest offices\u2014but I have to say it is not the slowest. One always gets an acknowledgement within 4 or 5 days, but no answer for 4 or 5 months. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EBut now the Minister has an opportunity to explain to us exactly why he is so keen on Part 3, which enables people to sit on both boards. He can explain to us why he will not let one of the objectives of Transfund be an economic objective. The Minister has every other objective in there. Paragraph (b) of clause 70(2) states that Transfund has to take into account the views of affected communities. We are inclined to define that as being just about anyone, anywhere in the country. It has to take into account the need for environmental responsibility, and exhibit a sense of social responsibility. The board of Transfund is sitting down with a large amount of money\u2014hundreds of millions of dollars\u2014and has to show that the decision it makes is environmentally responsible, socially responsible, and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c0b4cb94cfa4878986a0729a1795797\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Shame!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b407a4c127c844d4a12be395fdc279c4\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Greens say \u201Cshame\u201D. OK, that is fine. Let us have those provisions in there\u2014we are not asking that they be taken out. But why not put in \u201Ceconomic\u201D? Or do the Greens believe that one cannot be economically responsible and at the same time socially and environmentally responsible? That is the issue. The Greens have convinced the Minister that one cannot do things for the economy, socially, and for the environment at the same time, so that is why \u201Ceconomic\u201D decision-making has come out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EOf course we do not have the clause that says that Transfund must not have regard to the political circumstances of the Government. I would like the Minister to stand up and assure the Committee that the Labour Party will not use Transfund as its marginal seat retention scheme, because that is certainly the view in the community. It is the view in the industry that this is being restructured so that the Labour Party can put its snout in the trough and use it for that purpose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002215acba6ca87647baa71411f07700051c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002215acba6ca87647baa71411f07700051c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I welcome this second call this afternoon to clarify New Zealand First\u2019s views on funding road transport. First and foremost, we are advocates of using the 18.5c petrol tax that goes into the Crown account. If that is not justified or fair, and if there is a genuine reason that all of it or some of it should go into the Crown account, we would live with that if we could see a report that supported that assertion. Then we would look reasonably favourably at a regional fuel tax. It is important that we address the roading problems in this country. We hear that over $1 billion a year is lost to the commercial community in Auckland. I think the new leader of the National Party said that congestion in Auckland costs $1.4 billion a year. We say that the congestion problem is long past being reasonable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe do not support tolling, across the board. We would support road tolling on an individual basis exactly as we have now, where the legislation comes before the House and a case is put for a particular road to be tolled, and only that road. It is not to go on to other roads, etc. That is the case with Route K in Tauranga. We do not believe that the public-private partnership scenario in this bill will work. Larry Baldock asked yesterday, as I recall, why we are voting against this legislation if we do not believe it will work. Well, in short it will not work because it is not flexible enough. It will not work because the risks are too high. It will not work because the profit is too low, or is likely to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBut all that can be changed with a stroke of a pen, and then the average New Zealander could be faced with road tolls, here, there, and everywhere. We say \u201CNo\u201D to that. We say that for every dollar that goes into a toll plaza, firstly, in part it has to pay for the physical cost of that plaza; secondly, it has to pay for the manning of the plaza; thirdly, it has to pay for the administration of the roading scheme; fourthly, it has to pay the debt that the private investor has incurred by borrowing money to fund the plaza; and finally, it has to pay for the profit\u2014no profit, no investment. Maurice Williamson alluded to no profit, no investment; he not only alluded to it, he stated it in very, very firm terms, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. If there is no profit, investors cannot see money coming back to them, and they will not invest in the scheme. Virtually every dollar that goes through a regional petrol tax or fuel tax goes directly into roading. The best part of half the dollars that go through toll structures, I suggest, would be lost. The best part of half goes into administration, capital costs, and what have you, but every cent in every dollar that goes through the fuel tax system will go into roading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIf Transfund had the ability from the Minister to borrow, it could borrow sufficient money at reasonable terms to address the roading needs of this country in a relatively short time frame. We would pay it back through our petrol tax. As I say, if a petrol tax of 18.5c going into the consolidated account can be justified, and we have real doubts about it, then we would be prepared to support a regional fuel tax. I say \u201Cregional fuel tax\u201D because we seek to have it imposed on more than just the petrol motorist. It would be collected through a fuel tax on the petrol motorist and\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022 data-id=\u0022ffc5a703bf014f7395513ae5e4cc6264\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002273f60731-048d-4a21-81c5-52d588de2325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ffc5a703bf014f7395513ae5e4cc6264\u0022\u003EMITA RIRINUI (Labour\u2014Waiariki):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022afaabd9e22074595a245773ae671e73d\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000377\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 153 in the name of Larry Baldock to clause 70(1) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220f88e026b3334cbeb2274d3ef2a6c70a\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 21\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First 13; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 96\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8;Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000378\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 165 in the name of the Hon Paul Swain be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229d9a1ac450d942ccb4c2b33cd4214c84\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000379\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendment set out on Supplementary Order Paper 153 in the name of Larry Baldock to clause 79(1) be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002274ae06b68029483e82e636e1aee7e7b6\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 61\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222ca4a88693e6455eabdb315428cc61cc\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That Part 3 as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EPart 3 as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224600d6777f164d779da1e61b6020f87a\u0022\u003ESchedules\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022889a30d1464e4e83b611f84afaad1005\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022889a30d1464e4e83b611f84afaad1005\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E In recommending the schedules to the Committee, I point out that like most schedules, they are pretty technical in nature. They apply to some tidied-up consultation provisions, and to provisions relating to the safety administration programme\u2014\u201CSAP\u201D\u2014Transfund, and Transit. Other matters relate to the performance agreement between the Minister and various entities, and the last part concerns consequential amendments to other Acts. I recommend the schedules to the Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022c40851f549ac4c54a4d25914555f190f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c40851f549ac4c54a4d25914555f190f\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister might have tried to get away with that little stunt, but it just will not work. The schedules are huge. The Minister knows very well, as do the submitters who opposed a lot of this bill, that large parts of the bill are on consultation and the way that local government will have to consult on roading issues. All those provisions on consultation, which were opposed during the process of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee\u2019s hearing of submissions, have been taken out of the main part of the bill and put in the schedules. The schedules now run to some 70 pages in length, and that tells members the amount of detail that is contained in them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EPerhaps the Minister may indulge the Committee and explain why the Government felt it necessary to have all the consultation principles, which were opposed, and to require regional councils, local councils, and the private sector involved with roading projects not just to consult and go through the Resource Management Act process and the local government legislation, but now to go through a special consultative process laid out in new schedule 1AAB. There are so many new schedules. The Minister may think it was smart to remove the consultation provisions from the bill and put them in the schedules, but they are onerous and will add a considerable amount of delay and cost to any project, and particularly to any public-private partnership, if somebody was to get such a project under way in that environment. In fact, people from the private sector said that they just would not get involved in any project. They said they would not risk capital to get involved in roading partnerships with local and regional authorities with those consultative provisions. So lo and behold, the provisions have gone from the main body of the bill, and appear back in the schedules. Perhaps the Minister should explain why those people\u2019s concerns were so wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe schedules also provide for the method of appointment of board members to a board. Appointments used to be made by the Governor-General, but the Minister has now removed that provision. He wants to appoint board members directly. He is a Minister who wants a very hands-on political appointment process. There will be no going through the Governor-General now, and no worrying about any minor problems that that might cause. This Minister wants to recommend his political mates, and he does not want anyone to question them. He wants to make direct appointments, and, interestingly enough, direct sackings as well. So someone who is appointed to the board of Transit or Transfund, and who does not make a decision on one of those boards that is to this Minister\u2019s liking, will be gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EPerhaps the Minister, who has been very keen to have that provision put in the bill, could explain to the Committee where that method of appointment occurs in other legislation, and explain what other legislation provides a Minister with so much power. Why does he want all the power with regard to this legislation? What was wrong with the old system? What was the problem with a process whereby Ministers had to recommend appointees to the Governor-General and had to go through a proper process in order to sack people? What was so wrong with that? Why do we now have to have such a ministerially dominated position, if it is not because it is the only way, I think, that this Minister can make sure the people who politically support him are on the board and making the decisions that back up this Government in the marginal seats around the country? That is what people see this bill as doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis would also have been a good time for the Minister to stand up and explain to us why he has allowed people to be appointed to both boards. That is in this part of the bill. I hope he will take a call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6b79e11e15540b7858a04d79882bcbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6b79e11e15540b7858a04d79882bcbb\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E The schedules, and in particular schedule 1AAB, import into the bill the consultation provisions that were developed last year for the Local Government Act. As many of the agencies making decisions under this legislation will already be subject to the Local Government Act, this bill does not actually add any further obligations to their existing ones, but it clarifies that the obligations in the Local Government Act that they are already under should also be used in their transport decision-making processes, and it clarifies how they should be used. The provisions also apply, of course, to Transfund and Transit, and that is new. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EWhat is different about these consultation principles is that they set out that consultation should take place early. It should take place while options are being considered, and it should encourage people to have a say at that point, rather than waiting until all the engineering work has been done and everything has finished, before the consultation takes place. When that occurs, if the community does not like the project it is told that that is too bad, because it is too late to change the project. That is what tends to create all the hostility and the delays at the end of projects now. It has been the origin of a lot of discord and a lot of contention over consents. I am quite convinced that consulting earlier on the options will lead to a much smoother progressing of new transport projects. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EI want to look particularly at schedule 3, which sets out provisions for regional land transport strategies. Regional land transport strategies, of course, are already provided for under the Land Transport Act, but this legislation amends that Act and provides what those land transport strategies should do. I point out to those members who have been rabbiting on for 2 days about the lack of any economic objectives in this bill, about the lack of any requirements for economic efficiency or development or whatever, that each regional land transport strategy must take into account how the strategy assists economic development. This is not the only place in the bill that those words occur. There is also an obligation on the Minister to do that, when he approves concessions and tolling. If people would just read the bill, they would find those words that give them so much comfort about assisting economic development. That is, of course, the first objective in the New Zealand land transport strategy, which was published last year after its development by the Government and the Greens. We are not economic illiterates. The economy is provided for; it is just not the only thing that is provided for in this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe land transport strategy has to take into account how it will assist economic development, how it will assist safety and personal security, and how it improves access and mobility. That is the \u201Ceffectiveness\u201D that Larry Baldock was talking about in the Chamber yesterday. As he said, it is not about efficiency but about moving people around without wasting time. That is effectiveness, and that is access and mobility. So that is there in the land transport strategy, too. The strategy also takes into account how it protects and promotes public health, so that we do not have traffic arrangements that will lead to more likelihood of crashes and more likelihood of air pollution, and takes into account how it ensures environmental sustainability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E Those objectives are then reflected further when we look at the membership of the regional land transport strategies. The regional councils are responsible for those strategies, and we see that typically they have co-opted on to the regional land transport committee a whole lot of road users. There is nothing wrong with having road users on the committee, but if we have only road providers, road users, and road funders on the committee, then we will not take a balanced approach to the need for public transport, to the need for alternatives to roading, to the need for rail, and so forth. Rather than having people who are representative of particular factions of transport provision, we will now have people who represent the various objectives of the regional land transport strategy. So there will be people representing the need for economic development, representing safety, representing public health, representing access and mobility, and representing environmental sustainability. They will be able to argue on the committee for those values, and to scrutinise the strategy that comes out according to those values. They are guardians, if one likes, of those five objectives. I think that is likely, over time, to lead to better transport planning at the regional level.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002210ed5de129f041c18d10c449ec470aaa\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002210ed5de129f041c18d10c449ec470aaa\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E We should not be surprised that the Green Party comes to the Chamber and tells us it is OK for environmental sustainability to be put into the purpose clause of the bill and throughout the schedules, as well, ahead of economic efficiency, because the Greens are financial and economic Neanderthals. Under their way we would have \u201Cfortress New Zealand\u201D. We would be back where we were about 50 or 60 years ago. Under those conditions, the walking bus that the Greens promote so heavily would work really well. We would be able to walk around the villages in our Roman sandals, in between our morris dancers, and we would have a lovely time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThose of us who want to live in the 21st century and take New Zealand forward need to refer to the schedules, and to look at exactly what is being done to land transport in New Zealand. I want to talk for a moment about what the schedules are doing, as they relate to the construction of the boards of Transit and Transfund. One of the great tragedies is that the schedules do not include structural changes to the way Auckland is constructed in terms of roading purposes. Anybody who knows the situation will know that Transit and Transfund, which are referred to in the schedules, play an important role in Auckland. But equally, anyone who knows the Auckland situation well will know that we have a whole group of people involved. We have seven territorial local authorities, the Auckland Regional Transport Network, Infrastructure Auckland, and the Auckland Regional Council. They all have their own boards, their own agendas, and their own plans. None of them are put under one simple, possible structure. I know that the Minister is doing his job up there privately and secretly with the joint officials group and, if he is doing it properly, he will be instructing it to look at that. He will not be worrying about the fact that the schedules set out the construction of the Transit board, because that is not the solution to his problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to talk for a moment about one of the things that the Transit board will be able to do under the new plan, and that is to borrow money. That is not new. As I said last night, the board has had the capacity for many, many years, through the Minister of Finance, to borrow money, but it has chosen not to do so. Today, at the Finance and Expenditure Committee, I asked Dr Michael Cullen what he thought the fiscal implications would be of the joint officials group effort in Auckland, in terms of how much money would be likely to be applied to fixing Auckland\u2019s roads, and just what impact that would have on the Crown\u2019s operating balance into the 2003-04 period. I was shocked and stunned by the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b3cf0428751c4865a628676e94f76c5f\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Which was?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f83defafbc1432d91831bafcbf99ea4\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The answer was that there would be very little impact. Dr Cullen is not intending to do very much for Auckland roads. That is just more and more of the Labour Party\u2019s spin. Labour has had 4 years to fix the problem in Auckland, and every year it has become worse and worse. The spin machine and the \u201CBurns unit\u201D have been wheeled out. That Government would wheel out anything\u2014except the wheels of a car, because they are not spinning in Auckland. We are losing $1.4 billion a year. That is $1.4 billion of lost economic activity. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ESo I hope that the board of Transit is appointed, via these schedules, in a good and constructive manner. I hope that its members do not just become the Labour Party lapdogs that we know they have been in the past, and that the Hon Roger Sowry indicated to the Committee they would be. We hope that this Government will not turn that whole exercise in Auckland into a vote-buying process that is merely an extension of the election, but we know that that hope is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe saw, when Transit released its 10-year plan last year, how cruelly Auckland had been treated. Auckland consumers and businesses came before the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee and begged it to make alterations to the plan, but that did not happen. In fact, what happened was that Auckland was dropped from the vast majority of projects, and projects in marginal Labour electorates were brought further up the list. That was the reality of Transit New Zealand\u2019s 10-year plan and that will be the reality going forward under this Government, because the Government cares more about staying in office, about its own LTDs, and about preserving power for the sake of power than about using it for the benefit of New Zealand. What a tragedy that is! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI cannot wait until election day in 2005, when we will be able to vote that Government out and replace the boards of Transit and Transfund. Those boards will be full of Labour Party lackeys who do not deserve to be there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00222278b86ada9a4216877def604abae818\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222278b86ada9a4216877def604abae818\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E Actually, Mr Key is not correct. A new report has come out in the last few days that shows that the cost to the economy of the congestion in Auckland is actually closer to $4 billion, according to the Employers and Manufacturers Association. I will put that in a different form. It is a week\u2019s holiday every 2 months. That is what this congestion is costing the workforce. This Government would rather buy-off the workforce with the promise of an extra week\u2019s holiday than do something about the Auckland roads. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThese schedules are an absolute disgrace, for a huge number of reasons. Most significantly, they give the Minister of Transport enormous powers to appoint, to hire and fire, and to take this country back to pork-barrel politics. I remember being driven, when I was a child\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d50b66205924b05a5f463fa1647d288\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: That would have been a long time ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fe552a428da49519f4f1b73473df651\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: It was a long time ago. That member is right about one thing. It is the first thing I have ever heard her say in this Chamber that I agree with. It was a long time ago, but I do remember\u2014because I get the right drugs\u2014going around to the western side of Lake Taupo and seeing what a certain Prime Minister had been able to do\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671ca26997244d90921836f55d0a946c\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right; I agree with the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db4d4d0689f04a7c814a988cd7efeccf\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON\u003C/span\u003E: Exactly. That was pork-barrel politics, and we will see a return to that under this legislation and especially under the provisions in these schedules. We are already seeing that in the actions of the board members of Transfund. As the Hon Roger Sowry has pointed out, the Labour Party president and campaign manager, the Eftpos machine man, Mike Williams, is already on that board. The reason why we have a motorway in north Auckland that ends in the middle of a paddock is that we are already seeing political manipulation by board members, and we will see more of that. We will see more vote buying and more appointments to that board. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EUnder the provisions of these schedules, the land transport strategies of regional councils have to take into account all the items that Jeanette Fitzsimons reeled off. We will see boards appointed to represent all those different factions of the community, and we will see paralysis by analysis because they will never agree. How can all those different sections of a community ever agree on how a road should be built? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EParagraph 14 of Part 1 in schedule 2 states: \u201CAny steps that Transfund intends to take, having considered ways in which it might foster the development of M\u0101ori capacity to contribute to Transfund\u2019s land transport decision-making processes, \u2026\u201D. I ask the Minister what on earth that means. What on earth is \u201CM\u0101ori capacity to contribute to Transfund\u2019s land transport decision-making\u201D? Is that what Kara Puketapu was talking about this morning on Mana News, when he said that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri is totally useless in terms of looking after the needs of M\u0101ori? This was not some \u201Ccheeky whitey\u201D making those declarations. It was Kara Puketapu who said that Te Puni K\u014Dkiri is not serving the interests of M\u0101ori when it looks at all the legislation that goes through this House to see how it affects M\u0101ori. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThis is totally meaningless nonsense, but I can see people lining up already to be appointed to the boards of both Transit and Transfund. Gone is the separation of those two areas, which the Hon Maurice Williamson brought in, as he pointed out\u2014and a good thing it was, too. I guarantee that we will see on those boards people like Gary Taylor from the Environmental Defence Society. The society has already been favoured by this Government with numerous contracts. He was working in the Minister\u2019s office and has now gone, but we have seen numerous payments from this Government to someone who used the Resource Management Act to its greatest advantage to delay and stall consents for people. We will see more wastage of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u00223929e4a7b89c4d48b2a2b22de06a0545\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223929e4a7b89c4d48b2a2b22de06a0545\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to carry on from where the last speaker left off. My lasting impression, when I look through the bill, including the schedules, is that, yet again, we have a Government talking about obtuse concepts such as \u201Censuring environmental sustainability\u201D. For the life of me, I am not sure what that is, and I am quite experienced in local government affairs. I never knew what it was under some of the legislation that we have had to look at previously. I never found\u2014and I cannot find now\u2014a clear legal definition to give to regional land transport committees, so that they have some idea of what that actually means. This bill and the schedules lack that. If there is no adequate definition here, it is because there is no such definition. Why should local councils and all the various people who are now to make up the new regional land transport committees have to work out what that obtuse concept is? Because it is a nebulous concept.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIt reappears over and over again\u2014it is in schedule 3\u2014but I am in doubt as to what it really means. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWe have, yet again, the same problem with the Local Government Act 2002 \u2014which this bill will be a factor of\u2014and with the Resource Management Act. There are sections in those Acts that are directly contradictory, and they contradict this bill, as well. The proof of that will be court cases, at great cost to ratepayers and to citizens, in order to find out that I am right and that the legislation has failed to pick up the fine legal intentions in the wording in this bill and in those two Acts. I said that last year and in March this year. I am absolutely certain\u2014and I am backed by senior counsel in this city\u2014that those Acts are contradictory on some important matters, and only time will prove that. The lack of application of this bill to those principles, in a legal sense, will be a factor here, too. Whatever the term \u201Cenvironmental sustainability\u201D means, it will do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe other issue that concerns me, as a member of a regional committee, is what the new representation means. Does it mean that, for the first time, the Auckland Regional Land Transport Committee, which is part of the regional council, will have to consider the \u201Ccultural interest\u201D issue? Who are the people concerned with \u201Ccultural interest\u201D? Is it the local arts council? Is it some creative body that does performing arts? What is it? I cannot find a definition here, at all. This will be a very strange addition to the regional land transport committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe other thing I want to speak about is the fact that there is nothing in the bill\u2014and, therefore, in the Act when it becomes law\u2014that tells a land transport committee: \u201CThou shalt give weight to the majority opinion\u201D\u2014as we do at most times, and do in this House. The bill states that all those bodies, no matter how obtuse, small, or representative of the local community they are, have to be listened to and heard. This is not a majority opinion. This is a collective of minorities, down to the smallest minority, somehow, in this unique bill, having equal place and equal weight. I find that incorrect. In the practical sense, as a member of a committee, I am not sure how we will resolve it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E I go back to the other schedule that deals with long-term community consultation. It might just be that if we take the Local Government Act 2002 at its word\u2014and that part in this bill as its final word\u2014we can, by tiredness and long-term consultation, reduce issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EBut that would also be undemocratic, because the local consultation process will do that, excepting for the small groups, well financed and well represented, who, again, will have a pervasive say in a democratic process, because the majority will be overcome by lethargy and by time. So, overall, having been involved with land transport for the last 13 years, I do not see this bill or the schedules as a huge improvement, because, as I said last night, at the end of some of the good intentions in this bill and in the schedules, one fundamental issue still remains, and that is funding. This bill will not help the Albany to Puhoi realignment B2 (ALPURT B2). It is finished, all done, and not able to be processed because of funding issues at this point of time. The Minister should not shake his head. If he had the will, ALPURT B2 would be under way now. Instead, under this bill, ALPURT B2 will go right back to the start, and instead of the 7-year term, which the Minister sought\u2014of which he gained only 10 months\u2014it will take 14 years to complete.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1411d401aeb42adb22d0b967a41b0df\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1411d401aeb42adb22d0b967a41b0df\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022efe40afae1934eb2aeef0d8da5164a14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022efe40afae1934eb2aeef0d8da5164a14\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National): \u003C/span\u003EThe schedules are substantial, and I want to talk about our amendments, which we are hoping the Minister will support, as well, but before I do, I want to raise an issue that has come to my attention. A special Automobile Association newsletter has just been put out, and it rates the bill on 10 points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002240b5b900d2f54913baf05b02e83cda7b\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Who put it out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223cca3485bf9b47b7b5768d2a183d597c\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Automobile Association. I do not know whether the Minister has seen it. No? It appears that he has not. It rates the bill on 10 points, and gives it two out of 10.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bb260493d0654e2d80fbf7bd1eec1201\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223aea0dafd65d4aebbdf8614de285ae99\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister says that is not bad\u2014such are his aspirations. I do not want the Minister to go out of here and do what his associate, Judith Tizard, does\u2014ring up the Automobile Association, yell at them down the phone, and tell them that if they ever criticise the Government again they will not get in to see her office and will never get to talk to her again. I want the Minister to listen to this constructive criticism by the Automobile Association, and I am happy to table it at the end of this exercise so the Minister can read it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EOne of the things in the schedules is the fact that cultural interest groups take the place of road users on regional land transport committees. An analysis of the bill shows that cultural groups, M\u0101ori groups\u2014and a colleague from New Zealand First was talking about this just before\u2014take the place of the road users on the regional land transport committee. I say to the Minister that that is outrageous, and that is why we are moving some amendments to the schedules. Our amendments would delete clause 52A of schedule 1, and clauses 14 and 25 of schedule 2. The Minister might not have read these clauses. I will start with clause 52A, which tells us that, as part of its performance agreement, Transfund has to state how it will enhance its relationship with M\u0101ori, and, as part of its statement of objectives, it has to state how it will foster development of M\u0101ori. It actually has to spend road-user money to increase the capacity of M\u0101ori to contribute to Transit\u2019s land transport decisions. So Transit New Zealand, which is making the decisions about where the roads and designations are going to be, has to spend money to bring M\u0101ori up to speed so they can contribute to the decision-making process at that point. We think that is a nonsense, and we are seeking to have that provision deleted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EWith the new provision the Minister has put in, the annual report of Transfund now also has to spell out how many opportunities it gave for M\u0101ori to contribute to the decision-making process. I say to the Minister that this is just political correctness gone absolutely mad. On the Kapiti Coast, we have been waiting for the western link highway for 20 years. It has been objected to by the local iwi, and it has been changed because of their objections. The road has been diverted, it has been to the Environment Court, and it has been upheld. It has been back through a process with iwi, the designation has been changed again, and it has been back before the Court. The Court has now approved it, and now local iwi are appealing. I defend their right to put the district through that process. That is the iwi\u2019s right. They are using the law as they are entitled to. No one is arguing against that. But to say that they need to have more money from the road account to fund their objection is nonsense. No one else gets that. The farmer whose land the road goes through does not get any special treatment from Transit or Transfund. No one worries about the farmer\u2019s capacity to object. No one worries about the environmentalist\u2019s capacity to object. They do not get any special treatment or any special funding. But M\u0101ori do now, in the new clauses that the Minister, in his politically correct nonsense, is engaging in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI invite the Minister to take a call and say more than he said at the start of this debate, which was that these amendments are largely technical. They are not technical. For the first time ever, the Automobile Association of New Zealand has put out a special newsletter, which I have in the House today. The Minister has just admitted that he has not seen it. It marks the bill two out of 10, and one of the crosses is because cultural interest groups are going to take the place of road users on regional land transport committees. That is the effect of these schedules. This means in the Wellington region that the Automobile Association or the truck drivers\u2014people who use the roads\u2014will miss out on having a say on that committee because they cannot be included, but iwi get on. I do not mind iwi being on the committee, but why is the Minister taking the others off? Why is he limiting the numbers so that those people cannot get on the committee, but then giving special places to iwi? I wonder whether the Minister will try to defend that in the Chamber today, or whether he will just sit silent, again, all through this nonsense. I want to know this from the Minister: how much do Transfund and Transit have to spend\u2014it will be in their annual reports\u2014to satisfy the Minister that they have spent money to increase the capacity of M\u0101ori to object to roading projects around the country? That is what they are doing\u2014they are funding M\u0101ori groups in order to increase their ability to object to projects. That is now a statement in law that they have to adhere to as part of their statement of principles and as part of the annual report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e01e43a5dfd242cb95b32cec99b0d3ad\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: Good one!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f037f2f8c8ef4d73b126fb2bd10461e9\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori member says \u201CGood one.\u201D How much money do they need? How much will be approved? Will the member answer that? Is there a percentage of money that has to go, or is it a dollar amount? Ah! The member says no, they will not say that in the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecb47e78f95a4191bbb8387e8cfe3c62\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: Ha! Ha!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d6d04e0b31f4d02bdd7f5e99d2bb7c9\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: The M\u0101ori member giggles away.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222432af0bb6a24952b7a25fdbf2e3441b\u0022\u003EMahara Okeroa\u003C/span\u003E: Like I said, we\u2019re not going to put a benchmark on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc25d631953547b18f6c126e45e35f79\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Ah! He says it finally. There is no benchmark on it, says the M\u0101ori member. Well, if there is no benchmark, why is it in the annual report? How can it be there and be reported on if there is no benchmark? That is absolute nonsense, and the member knows it. At the end of the day, the Minister has to hold them to account, and he cannot do so with it being so loose. That is why the Automobile Association has put out this damning special report, which is critical of the legislation. I want the Minister to read the document and undertake in the Chamber that he will stop, Judith Tizard, his associate, from ringing the Automobile Association people and abusing them. The last time the Automobile Association put out a statement criticising the Government, Judith Tizard rang them up and said that if they ever did it again they would not get in her office. She threatened them. I said to the Automobile Association that I would take that as a promise. I would not bother going into her office. I was surprised that they still wanted to see her. I say to Minister Swain that I know he does not throw his weight around like that Associate Minister does. I know that he does not do that, but I want him to bring the rest of the dogs into line. I want him to make sure that we do not get this threatening, bullying behaviour. I hope that he will take a call and explain that to the Committee, because this situation is unprecedented. Never before has the Automobile Association put out a special document solely to criticise the Government. Never before has it done that. I know that this Government likes to control everything, but finally people are starting to see through it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00225bfd99f3b8914679aad47c03753c8fc7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225bfd99f3b8914679aad47c03753c8fc7\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I would like to make a few comments on schedule 1AAB, about the principles of consultation, particularly in light of some of the comments that Jeanette Fitzsimons made a little earlier. There was a lot of criticism of the bill, in its original form, in relation to the overly complex nature of consultation. I believe that we have done a very sensible thing in adopting principles from the local government legislation for consultation, and placing things in line with, in particular, the regional land transport strategies. Although, initially, there will be some projects that are caught in the transition as this bill comes into force, in time, as consultation occurs through the regional land transport strategies, there will be no need for duplication, as from there projects will be put on Transfund\u2019s schedule, or private-public partnerships will be sought, unless there are changes into a tolling scheme, in which case there will need to be further consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe have to realise that, in today\u2019s age, consultation is a part of life. If we want people to be on board with the things that we are planning, then we have to get out there early and involve them in the decision making, so that people feel they have ownership of the projects. Nowhere is this more evident than in Tauranga, where a major roading project proceeded to the Environment Court and got its designation within the space of a year, despite all the stories that we hear constantly about how long the Resource Management Act process takes. The project was granted its designation without any objections, because the council took great pains\u2014along with Transit and the Access partnership in Tauranga\u2014to consult the community. As a member of the community there, I also was very concerned about the project. It is one that will make a major impact upon the landscape, because it is a huge concrete viaduct that will link the second bridge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI think it is a real credit to the council, and to those involved in the process, that the project went through without designation. It is a very good example of how good consultation can work. In my opinion, it is also a very good example of why we should have had this bill many years earlier. I wish we had had this bill 3 or 4 years ago, when we were at the conception stage of the project, because the council was always forced to look for the cheapest option to provide a new link across the harbour. Had we had the option of tolling and alternative funding then, I think we would have probably come up with a tunnel. It was one of the options that was pursued, but was discounted because of its expense. However, in terms of benefit for the community, a tunnel would have been much, much better, and could have been provided if we had been able to toll it, back in those days. The traffic volumes on the project will certainly be sufficient to guarantee that it is able to pay for itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI have some other comments to make about the principles of the regional land transport strategies, and about the comments that Jeanette Fitzsimons made earlier. She said that there is so much emphasis in the bill on economic development, and that we do not need amendments regarding efficiency, which shows that she simply misses the point again. New subsection (2)(b), which can be found in schedule 3, states that the regional land transport strategy must take into account how the strategy\u2014\u201C(i) assists economic development;\u201D\u2014the word, of course, is \u201Cassist\u201D\u2014\u201C(ii) assists safety and personal security; and (iii) improves access and mobility; and (iv) protects and promotes public health;\u201D. But when the bill gets to \u201Cenvironmental sustainability\u201D it uses the word \u201Censures\u201D, which is a much stronger word. It is not about \u201Cassisting\u201D environmental sustainability; it uses a very strong word, and \u201Censures\u201D environmental sustainability. It is because of the strength of that word\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254331123703b460e990878f5bcc87d18\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What does it mean?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2cd9b8025c54c7197c07b2bad3312b9\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: There are questions about what it means, but let us deal with the \u201Censuring\u201D part of it. Because of the strength of that word, United Future continues to promote the need for amendments that would bring efficiency into account, so that the bill is balanced. True sustainability has three legs to it: the environment, the social aspects, and the economic aspects of any project. It is this that we want to see balanced by the amendments I have proposed. I am grateful there have been some amendments, to further strengthen the emphasis on efficiency. Also, in relation to the regional land transport strategy in subsection (2) there is paragraph (n), which states: \u201Cinclude a demand management strategy that has targets and timetables appropriate for the region;\u201D. I confess that when this was first added to the bill, I was horrified, because it looked a heck of a lot like the Road Traffic Reduction Bill, which was promoted by Jeanette Fitzsimons earlier. When I saw \u201Ctargets and timetables\u201D I was very concerned that we would be required\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u002220ce843afc7a4465989722bbc04f2e94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002220ce843afc7a4465989722bbc04f2e94\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I apologise because I should have done this after my speech, but because the Minister has not seen the document I referred to, I seek the leave of the Committee to table the special AA Advocate document analysing the Land Transport Management Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022746545d98be446839ea3091539abff01\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022746545d98be446839ea3091539abff01\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u0022bce34bf507c7442db47a26c9dcbacea1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bce34bf507c7442db47a26c9dcbacea1\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E I spoke earlier about the structure of the Transit and Transfund boards, and about the structure of roading in New Zealand. I believe that has been one of the great, significant, contributing factors as to why roading in New Zealand has failed to deliver the kinds of results we need. One of the great challenges for the Transit board, when it looks at the plan coming forward, is just how much money it will require. The honourable member from New Zealand First Mr Peter Brown has advocated in the Chamber over the last few days the desire for regional petrol taxes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa7eb4b234a74255b7504476f17fe363\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: No, not the desire; the second option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022074ef10490054e16affe44010054de68\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The second option of a regional petrol tax. I want to outline for the member what I believe is the potential cost facing Auckland. The member may be aware that at the moment about $150 million per year is spent on new roading in Auckland, up from about $85 million last year, as a result of the 4.7c petrol tax that was put in place across the country by the Government. Now $150 million sounds like quite a lot of money, and one would think that it would go quite a long way, but I will refer to the kinds of things that the Transit board will be forced to look at. The eastern corridor is now estimated to cost $2.9 billion. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI came back to Auckland 2 years ago, when John Banks campaigned on roads\u2014John Banks, that wonderful mayor in Auckland, who was a fantastic National Party Minister and a great member of caucus for 18 years, and who I have absolutely no doubt will bolt in during the election campaign of 2004, because he will campaign on \u201Cgive me some roads\u201D. He has been around to the Prime Minister\u2019s house for lunch, and has schmoozed up to her. I saw him give her a kiss on the Television One news the other night\u2014at Vogel House, or wherever it was\u2014and if he does not get a few billion dollars for a kiss, then I do not know what he will get. Anyway, he is going to be out there campaigning, and saying: \u201CGive me some roads. Give me an eastern corridor.\u201D Well, $450 million was the first figure he gave me. He came back a few months later, and said: \u201CLook John, the figure is going to be somewhere in the order of a billion dollars.\u201D Quite funny as it may be, I was filling up my car with petrol just the other day, just before the announcement, and John Banks came over to me\u2014it was a Sunday afternoon; a glorious day in Auckland\u2014and said to me\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290e59fa49a744ba99bbf149d4fa76a1f\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: A glorious day to be out in the BMW.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220234aa22ddb0446ea37e50b41fa55379\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: No, it was a Commodore. He said: \u201CIt\u2019s going to cost a bit more for the eastern corridor.\u201D I asked him why he did not just tell me the figure. He said: \u201CI can\u2019t tell you; it\u2019s a national secret. We\u2019re going to announce it on Tuesday, but don\u2019t worry, it\u2019s just a bit more.\u201D Just a bit more! It went from $1 billion to $3 billion. If that does not worry John Banks, then I do not know what does. No wonder he is kissing Helen Clark. He will be hugging her. He must be sending her letters: \u201CGive me the money. Show me the money.\u201D It will be like Jerry Maguire\u2014\u201CShow me the money.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt will take $2.9 billion for the eastern corridor, and it does not stop there. A billion dollars will be spent on State highway 20. Members may ask what electorate that goes through. Well, it is Mount Albert, the Prime Minister\u2019s electorate. It could be fixed with about $175 million worth of roading, but the Prime Minister would like some tunnels so that the roads do not actually go through the backyards of her constituents; she wants them to go underneath. I guess we have to excuse that as a sort of prime ministerial whim, but it will cost another $850 million. Then there is the alternative harbour crossing, which, lo and behold, is going to take 16 years to build and will cost $3 billion. I reckon it will be about $5 billion by the time that thing gets built\u2014if it ever gets built. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThen there is the Albany to Puhoi realignment B2 (ALPURT B2) and the promise that it would be fixed. There was a promise that it would be looked at. What happened to ALPURT B2? Let us remember that it involves the Orewa to Puhoi motorway, which currently stops in the middle of absolutely nowhere. So what happened to ALPURT B2? [Interruption] That is right. A person who is represented by Jeanette Fitzsimons went and got legal aid, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of legal aid, tying up the Rodney District Council and the Environment Court, literally for years, and by the time we won the case\u2014as the Crown always would have, or the Rodney District Council always would have\u2014lo and behold, it was nowhere to be seen on Transit\u2019s plan. So that was hundreds of millions of dollars. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EState Highway 18 is one I would specifically refer the Minister to. I hope he is listening, because his brother lives right off that street, and it actually happens to be in my electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291a7450691f04529b93a068f72bb9f88\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0055d99e801479b82150f773efe82c0\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: So if he could help, that would probably be about another $500 million to $600 million. I could go on and on, but I do not like to because this is a very important topic. The cost of trains will be $1.5 billion. Then there are the busways. The numbers are extraordinarily high.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u00220eea6da3672349b8b0e4eea3440fe6e8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220eea6da3672349b8b0e4eea3440fe6e8\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022208df74ab16a4899ac6de799b0a644e9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the question be now put.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000452\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the amendments set out on Supplementary Order Paper 165 in the name of the Hon Paul Swain to the schedules be agreed to.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002229530083e766486f9ce81a70a0823db7\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendments agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000453\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Roger Sowry to schedule 1 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000454\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 52A.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00226f8d8cc4ef6d443fbd08402c70c75fa9\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000455\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Roger Sowry to schedule 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000456\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 14.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022ad42e1c6244f4bc18f47a01d8b8ec94e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000457\u0022\u003EThe question was put that the following amendment in the name of the Hon Roger Sowry to schedule 2 be agreed to:\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000458\u0022\u003Eto omit clause 25.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00224982562abe004536be303ba4b7722966\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00225613ae48624e4722b5065438f037a5b0\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote  was called for on the question, That the schedules as amended be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ESchedules as amended agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000459\u0022\u003EBill reported with amendment.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a5c85a2d4bb8466ca0c385335d4665ac\u0022\u003ELocal Government Law Reform Bill (No 2)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002238a73a21a6fc4490a520c83e50b5dcbb\u0022\u003EConsideration of Report of Local Government and Environment Committee\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002208a5e5f987444a44980fa812e1feeb68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208a5e5f987444a44980fa812e1feeb68\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Local Government):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of the report of the Local Government and Environment Committee on the Local Government Law Reform Bill (No 2). The report back of the bill represents, in my view, significant progress towards improving the emphasis on community safety and dog control. The impetus for this bill came about after a series of particularly vicious dog attacks that occurred last summer. In one of those incidents a 7-year-old child, Carolina Anderson, was almost killed when attacked by an uncontrolled dog in an Auckland suburban park. The pain and suffering Carolina endured prompted community outrage, and rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EFollowing a review of dog control laws and a detailed survey of local authorities, it became apparent that significant improvements could be made to legislation to improve public safety. Consequently, the Government\u2019s intention in progressing this bill is to strengthen the existing Dog Control Act rather than to completely revamp it. What this bill does very well is to strike a better balance between the desires of dog owners to be able to enjoy their pets, and the rights of other members of our community, particularly children, to go about their lives without fear of attack or intimidation by uncontrolled dogs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThere is nothing I would like more than to be able to tell the House that this bill will halt dog attacks once and for all. Unfortunately, that is not something I can do. As long as we have dogs in our community, and as long as we have irresponsible owners, some attacks will occur. It is simply inevitable. There are, however, a number of practical steps we can take to limit the number and severity of attacks. Those steps are taken in this bill. Local government is given a full complement of tools to control the impact of dogs in our communities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EOne of the most significant changes the committee made relates to the issue of fencing. In the original proposal, dog owners were to have been required to securely contain their dogs on their own properties and to provide unimpeded access for visitors to at least one external door of a dwelling. Having carefully listened to the view of submitters, the committee has decided to require owners to confine their dogs on their property when not under their direct control. But the committee has stopped short of specifying how dog owners should do this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI think this amendment is sensible and practical, and I will support it. The change achieves the primary objective of the original proposal\u2014that is, that dogs must be confined and not roaming the streets. The committee also proposes that the existing ability of territorial authorities, to classify some dog owners as probationary, ought to be retained. The committee proposes that this classification remain in the Act but as an either/or option for councils to use in conjunction with disqualification as a tool when dealing with problem owners. The committee also proposes that councils should have a specific power to require such owners to attend courses in dog ownership or obedience. Again, I think that those are sensible amendments, and I will support them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EThe committee has also adopted a somewhat different approach to the Government\u2019s proposal on the issue of microchipping all dogs. The committee supports microchipping, but recommends it be limited to just three categories of dogs: dangerous dogs, menacing dogs, and those dogs that are to be returned to their owners after being impounded. The committee also recommends that individual councils be empowered to determine for their own districts whether microchipping is to be compulsory. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EMy view, and the Government\u2019s view\u2014which, of course, are the same\u2014is that the introduction of a system of microchip identification of dogs should remain unchanged. We take the view that microchipping can provide for a truly effective and affordable means of dog identification only if it is applied to all dogs. Most important, a system of microchip identification can work effectively only if it is linked to a national information database, and that database can work effectively only if it is linked to the introduction of universal microchipping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI believe there are a number of flaws in what the select committee has proposed on this issue. The first is that the committee\u2019s proposals will require each council to purchase equipment to support microchipping for the use of only a handful of dogs in each district. The second is that the ongoing cost of the database that should accompany microchipping will have to be recouped from just a small number of owners, making it almost certainly very expensive for those owners. It is estimated that the set-up costs for a national database on dogs would be in the order of $1 million. The Government has indicated that it is prepared to meet the set-up costs, because there are quite clearly national benefits from such a database. In addition to the set-up costs of the database, there would be annual running costs that would amount to about 53c per dog, if all dogs in New Zealand were registered. That figure would be vastly larger if it applied to just a few hundred owners, and therefore the issue of compliance costs is another compelling reason to support a national database. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EFor that reason, I will be moving an amendment to the bill at the appropriate time to provide for the universal microchipping of dogs. I would like members from other parties in the House who are currently not supporting that position to think again on this issue. I note that the SPCA, the Veterinary Association, and the New Zealand Kennel Club all support microchipping. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EAside from the issues I have just outlined, the bill remains largely as introduced. Under the provisions of the bill, territorial authorities will be required to review their dog control policies and bylaws under revised public safety criteria to ensure there is far less likelihood that children will be forced to encounter unleashed dogs in public places, such as parks and playgrounds. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003EI would like to thank the select committee for the amount of time it gave in hearing the proposals. The bill is about keeping the public safer from dangerous dogs. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the many submitters who participated so willingly in the select committee process and whose views on this matter were often very sincerely held.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022 data-id=\u0022bc87de55a08043d9b14646fe127e8d0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bc87de55a08043d9b14646fe127e8d0f\u0022\u003EDr PAUL HUTCHISON (National\u2014Port Waikato):\u003C/span\u003E This Local Government Reform Bill (No 2) will shortly become the Dog Control Amendment Act. National does indeed support this legislation, and we were very glad to be able to work constructively in the Local Government and Environment Committee with the other parties on this very, very important issue. However, we do note that this bill has been languishing since 1999, and that it took a crisis before this Labour Government was prepared to do anything about the very serious problem it addresses. The statistics show that in the order of 300 serious dog attacks resulting in hospitalisation occur in New Zealand per year, and there are many thousands of other dog attacks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe point is that a large proportion of them are undoubtedly preventable. The task of the select committee was to respond to the Government\u2019s crisis response to the mounting concerns across New Zealand regarding dog attacks. There were indeed a cluster of dog attacks in south Auckland at the beginning of this year. They were on children, and they were very serious; but there was a further attack in Ponsonby that horrified many people. It focused the attention of the news media, and finally the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI believe that it is important to revisit the submission that was provided by the family of Carolina Anderson. It described the fact that the owners of the offending dog failed to control the animal, failed to come to Carolina\u2019s assistance, failed to call the dog off, gave a false name and number to family friends, and failed to come forward to the police or the family in the days after the attack. When the police arrested the owners on a Wednesday of that month, they were found seemingly attempting to change their appearance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe submission goes on to say that because of their actions Carolina will be scarred for life, yet under the 1996 Dog Control Act they face a maximum fine of $5,000 and a mere 3 months in jail on the charge of possessing a dangerous dog. Even at that early stage after the event, the family knew that the cost to them\u2014the victim and parents\u2014would be substantially greater. Only a few days ago I spoke to Carolina\u2019s father, and he said she had just undergone yet another operation, and this is very much an ongoing event in her life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThe submission goes on to say: \u201CIn light of the spate of dog attacks in New Zealand in recent months and the hideous impact this is having on many sectors of the community, but especially children, our family, our friends, and our many supporters in the community urge the Government to make an urgent revision of the Dog Control Act.\u201D As we know, this bill was brought before the House some months ago, and the select committee has deliberated constructively. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E It is incredible to read in this week\u2019s Sunday Star-Times that the owners of the dog that attacked Carolina now have another dog of a similar breed, if not exactly the same, in their care. It just seems incredible, the insensitivity that they have displayed in taking on this friend\u2019s dog. It is absolutely irresponsible that again they are, apparently, parading around Ponsonby with a dog that is potentially a very dangerous animal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EIt appears\u2014on reading the Dog Control Act\u2014that the District Court judge did not actually incur either a probationary notice on this pair or suggest that there be disqualification. I understand that, as it reads, it is only the territorial local authority that may do so. The reality is that while the new bill means that anyone who is on probation or is disqualified is no longer able to own or possess a dog, there may be an anomaly in that if a District Court judge believes or recommends that that should happen, the territorial local authority will not know about it, or the owners might move from one territorial local authority to another. An important anomaly in the system that was not picked up by the select committee clearly has allowed this pair\u2014Thomas Owen and Brian Hill\u2014to flagrantly go about with yet another menacing dog under their care, on the pretence that they do not own it, but they are merely looking after a friend\u2019s dog. We have a problem here, and, hopefully, it will be addressed by an amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EI point out that there was overwhelming support in the submissions that this amendment bill focus on owner responsibility, that irresponsible owners should be penalised, and that councils be required to demonstrate better enforcement. We learnt that there was considerable variation in enforcement around the country, with some councils keeping statistics and doing a very good job, and other councils not achieving the sorts of results or standards that we would expect in New Zealand. Undoubtedly, the committee has to balance the consideration of not being too restrictive to dogs exercising and socialising; yet, on the other hand, not having universal prescriptive rules for urban and rural conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EUndoubtedly, the most contentious issue was that proposed in the Government\u2019s amendment\u2014the requirement to provide a dog-free access from the street to a door of any house where there is a dog. That was daft. That was a clear illustration of the daftness of the Minister, the Hon Chris Carter. Fortunately, the committee worked hard to convince him, finally, that that was a ridiculous anomaly put up by the Government, and it has been thrown out in this bill\u2014quite rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003EThere is great sense in ensuring that responsible dog owners are given incentives, and they, undoubtedly, are the majority of owners in New Zealand. A clear indication is that discounts in terms of registration, in terms of turning up for educative courses, etc., and in terms of complying appropriately with best-practice guidelines, should be given to responsible dog owners.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cfdabe42-521a-4dca-afab-3e781731a130\u0022\u003E I end by saying that it also is a huge concern that we do not have consistent nation-wide application of the Act in New Zealand. There is a big need to get best-practice guidelines right across New Zealand that will be applied by the territorial local authorities. I note in the commentary, as an additional means of addressing this issue, that the committee recommended a new section 10AB be inserted into the Dog Control Act to require a territorial local authority to report annually on the administration of its dog control policies and practices. A template for such annual reporting could be included in the best-practice guideline being developed by the department and Local Government New Zealand. This is hugely important, in my view. It will allow benchmarking as a stimulus for territorial local authorities to provide optimal rules, and to enforce them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022 data-id=\u002208a40dc5ba994e3cb2cd875a40128a93\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002208a40dc5ba994e3cb2cd875a40128a93\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago):\u003C/span\u003E I was lucky enough to chair the Local Government and Environment Committee when it considered the amendments to the Dog Control Act, and I thank members from all sides on that committee who cooperated to produce what is, I think, quite a good piece of proposed legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThe committee was conscious\u2014as is the Government\u2014of the need to balance the rights of dog owners against the rights of the general public to be properly protected, to the extent that it is possible, from any nuisance and risk posed by dogs, particularly in public places. The legislation goes some way to improving that balance. As the previous speaker said, one of the problems with universal rules imposed at central government level is that the interests of densely populated areas, where there is high density housing and high numbers of people, are a bit different to the interests of councils in rural areas where populations are pretty thinly spread and the problems posed by dogs are not the same. So imposing universal solutions at a central government level can lead either to over-regulation for territories that are rural in nature or to under-regulation for areas where we do not want concentrations of large dogs wandering freely in the streets in city areas. What we have done with this legislation is find the appropriate balance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EOne of the proposals that was rightly put up for consideration was whether there should be a right of free access to the door from the street on all properties on which there is a dog. This arose from concerns in some south Auckland neighbourhoods in particular, where there have been reports of posties not being able to deliver letters and, also, concerns on the part of meter readers. We did give consideration as to whether that was appropriate. Balanced against that was the right of property owners to let dogs roam around their sections, to not have the cost of fencing to the front door, and to be able to feel more secure about their properties because their dogs are wandering around the entire property. In the end, the committee thought that, while it is every person\u2019s right to have a dog wandering around his or her property, it is not every person\u2019s right to have a dangerous dog wandering around that property. To the extent that people have a right in law\u2014unless it is taken away by the landowner, everyone has a right to approach the front door of a house that one is visiting\u2014we thought that that right carried with it the right for people to be able to expect that any dogs on the property would not be dangerous. In cases of dangerous dogs on properties, the local authority should be able to require that there be a fenced way to the door. In the end, we have not imposed an obligation, or suggested that one be imposed, to provide a dog-free, fenced access to the front door for all properties. However, that requirement will remain in the case of a dangerous dog.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c95b5ae4226444d1aa9e16c89b903e6d\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER\u003C/span\u003E: The next issue I wish to talk about is the proposal to microchip dogs. Microchip technology has become a lot cheaper over the years and these days it is commonly used by farmers, particularly in the dairy industry. As it has become more cost-effective it has become a technology that is open to being used on dogs. It would assist in the tracking of dogs, particularly when they go from one district to another or are let out without their collars. If a dog attacks stock and does not have its collar on, it is hard for farmers to pin responsibility on the errant owner, because they cannot prove ownership of the dog. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003EThere was a divided view in the committee as to whether microchipping dogs should be compulsory for all councils, which would be progressively applied to all new registrations\u2014it was not proposed that it be applied to dogs that had previously been registered. The Labour side favoured compulsory microchipping but there was some diffidence on the other side, so there was a split view on that in the committee. The Labour Party still favours compulsory microchipping. In that scenario, the Government would bear the cost of establishing a national database on which all registration details, including individual microchip identifiers, would be entered. If that were achieved, then over the next 10 to 15 years all dogs would progressively be fitted with a microchip as new dogs were born and registered. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003ELastly, I wish to make reference to fines. Some fines for serious offences and deliberate wrongdoing have been increased, as have maximum penalties, but we took the step that was recommended by some councils of reducing some infringement fee fines so that they were not too onerous and were more proportionate to the offence that occurred. Therefore, they are more likely to be imposed by councils, rather than being seen as overkill by councils. We also made it clear that those infringement fees, when collected, would stay in the hands of the council that had done the enforcement work, rather than passing into the Government\u2019s coffers. Those are the points I wanted to make, and I thank again the committee members who assisted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1b20036ec3e49239982d490e67ff05a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1b20036ec3e49239982d490e67ff05a\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E First, I wish to thank David Parker, who chaired the Local Government and Environment Committee, and fellow members for what in the end was a carefully considered and much more thoughtful response to an issue that earlier in the year was of great concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI want to go back in time, because if I just spend a moment or two looking at the past, members will understand why at least one issue, that of breed-specific content, might not have been addressed in the minds of those who keep on writing to me\u2014as recently as this afternoon\u2014about what we have not done. This goes back to 1991, when Cabinet invited the then Minister of Local Government to conduct a review of the adequacy of existing dog legislation. The select committee reported back to the House after hearing about 400 submissions, in July 1993. Older members will recall that the Dog Control Act was enacted in 1996. The issue of breed-specific legislation was considered and rejected, and, instead, the training of dogs was considered the primary factor. Dog behaviour, rather than dog breed, became the determining issue of concern in that legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThroughout the 1990s the American pit bull terrier was often the subject of concern in the wider community. There was the death of Koro Dinsdale in April 1997, which the media implied had been caused by pit bull terriers. There was a sudden rush of concern, throughout those years, about the state of this dangerous breed, why it was being allowed in, and so on. Therefore, it was no wonder that the then Minister of Local Government, the Hon Christine Fletcher, established a cross-party parliamentary working-party with the instruction that it consider what action should be taken under existing statutory powers to achieve the phased elimination from New Zealand of the American pit bull terrier, then venture into difficult waters and consider crossbreeds. That working-party become known as the Brian Neeson working-party. It reported back in May 1997. Finally, a bill of three parts came into the House just before the election in 1999, and that is the bill that our committee picked up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI think it is appropriate to pay tribute to Brian Neeson, who is no longer with us. He was a good, loyal, honest, and hard-working member of the National Party, but for some strange reason he was rejected by the party and is no longer in the House. I would like to pay tribute to Brian, whom I have known for many years. He will be very pleased to see that, at long last, his earnest efforts have been rewarded by this bill, which comes to us in a more substantial form than his bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EAs the Minister of Local Government has already said, the committee heard a number of representations. I want to take the House through a few of them, because they not only give us a lead as to what we were looking at but also leave us with some difficulties, which I think the House will have to consider when the bill goes through the Committee stage next week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe Auckland City Council said that it was aware of the difficult issues in achieving a balance between the rights of responsible dog owners to own and control dogs, and the right of members of the public to feel safe. That was expressed in our narrative to the bill. The council, like us all, deplored the increasing number of serious dog attacks. It acknowledged that the survey of local authorities\u2014there was both an initial and a completed survey of local authorities\u2014had indicated that a vastly disproportionate percentage of all attacks were by unregistered dogs. That was a cause of concern to us. The council said\u2014and it is also our thoughts, as expressed in the final report now before the House\u2014that it is extremely important that we do not impose unnecessary restrictions on the majority of dog owners, who are both law-abiding and responsible. That was one of the key concerns that we worked through in the committee. The Auckland City Council, as a large city council with parks, realised that one of the issues it had to look at, and one that it might not have dealt with adequately in the past, was the provision in its open spaces and parks of more stand-alone areas where dogs could be exercised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe Manukau City Council came to the committee on the same day. I found the Manukau City Council submission interesting. First of all, it has roughly 14,000 registered dogs and about 7,000 unregistered dogs. The Manukau City Council covers an area that is known for having a large number of unregistered dogs. It wanted the committee\u2014and I am not quite sure why it did not do it itself\u2014to send a very clear message that dogs should be registered, that it is not equitable for some dog owners to choose not to register their dogs, and that it is certainly not equitable for the ratepayer to have to pay the total cost of enforcement in respect of dogs that are not registered. The council did not have a very clear position on microchipping. The Manukau City Council people thought it was of benefit, but they were not clear in their minds about the technology that would go with microchipping.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe other submission that I want to take the House through very quickly is one that I was particularly pleased to see and that was very precise\u2014that is, the submission from the Auckland branch of the SPCA. It raised four factors, and I want to raise them here because they were the factors we looked at in our committee report. It talked about the consistency of law. I am sure the society meant consistency of law throughout all local authorities responsible for dog control. The survey that has already been alluded to showed quite clearly that there is not consistency of control. On the basis of reading it again this afternoon, I have to say that of the 79 or so territorial authorities, there might not be more than 23 to 25 that exercise reasonable dog control.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThat is not being negative, because one of the issues of dog control is the issue that I started with\u2014that is, the cost to ratepayers. The district councils with two or three rangers running a $100,000 operation feel that that is all that dog control is worth in terms of council funding. They are not likely to increase that funding unless there is some incentive to do so. But the councils\u2014and I have talked to a number since the committee brought down its report\u2014are not happy or unhappy; they just feel they could do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI have raised with them the issue of microchipping. That was one of the issues the committee looked at very carefully, and we walked away from it in some ways. The issue of microchipping is an important one. The select committee gave it due deliberation. The issue as I see it now\u2014and our caucus has discussed it fairly completely\u2014is that, in the committee\u2019s mind, if we were to call for compulsory microchipping of dangerous dogs, and for a national database and register throughout the country, the cost to the councils of that would be so inequitable that it would not really run as a going concern. From that, our caucus advanced our thinking to the point where we think microchipping should be universal. We had certain issues about it. The first is the state of the technology. The transponder, by the way, needs to be slightly bigger; instead of being able to view it from the distance between myself and that glass, it really needs to be visible from a metre or so away. Secondly, in our thinking about it, I advanced to our caucus that there was no need for a collar, and that microchipping could be done alone. I have come to feel that perhaps a collar is needed, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe third thing I want to say\u2014and I know that veterinary surgeons, who have a vested interest, are strongly in support of this\u2014is that if we do support microchipping, we would need to have qualified dog officers inserting the microchips. One vet told me there is nothing worse than the sight of a pure white 3-month-old dog whose microchip was not inserted very well; the owner fainting at the sight of the dog\u2019s blood going down the back of its neck, which is where the chip is inserted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe process is easily done. The transponder is an issue. The database would be sound. I think, in the end, the number of registered dogs would be greater. The cost could be borne, provided that the Government meets the substantial cost, as the Minister said today, of the database and the continuance of the database.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u0022e1c8e21d20f64551be007440b48902a7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e1c8e21d20f64551be007440b48902a7\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The introduction of this bill is very topical. As has been alluded to in this House, it is just a few months since the rather horrific attack on young Carolina Anderson that, clearly, was the catalyst for the introduction of this bill. I was one of those unfortunate enough to view a photograph of that little girl\u2019s face that was not shown to the media. Like everybody else in that room that day, I was absolutely appalled at what I saw. If I may, I will take a moment just to reflect that too often we do not recognise the people who quite literally put faces and people back together again. I think it is important to recognise the fantastic job that the medical profession does when faced with appalling circumstances like that of young Carolina. I am delighted to see that there has been a huge improvement, and long may that continue as that beautiful young face and skin regenerate and the surgeons work their miracles, as I am sure they will.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003ESometimes it is rather difficult to stand in the House and make a speech when one stands alone and bases one\u2019s comments not on a lack of emotion, a lack of understanding of what has gone on in the past, but on certain principles that are quite important to me and, indeed, to our party. I am not sure at all\u2014in fact, I do not believe, as, indeed, I am sure many in this House do not believe\u2014that the passing of this law will suddenly be the panacea for dog attacks. That is just not going to happen. We have too many hugely irresponsible people in our society who constantly thumb their nose at authority, whether it be a dog ranger, a territorial authority, or, indeed, the Government. Those are the people on whom the focus of this bill should always be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EAs a farmer I have some real interest in reading through this bill. I have owned many, many dogs, and some of them have been quite stroppy, one might say. Many would be referred to as dangerous by those who do not know how to handle such dogs on a farm. A big huntaway with a young child can be quite dangerous. So I bring some understanding to this issue. But there should be an emphasis, quite rightly, on the dangerous dog as distinct from the law-abiding citizen, as Jim Peters has just alluded to. Far and away the vast majority of dog owners are decent, law-abiding, sensible people who enjoy the opportunity of owning a dog. It is very much a part of the New Zealand way of life. How many of us have received a pup for a birthday or at Christmas time? Growing up with animals is part of who we are and what we are in this country. I would certainly not want to see that changed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EBut I ask this question of the House. Would the Governor-General\u2019s dog, which flew at a golden retriever in a very public way just recently, qualify as a dangerous dog? That dog attacked another dog in an inappropriate way. That retriever was doing a fantastic job for its mistress, and was attacked by that little whatever it was\u2014it looked like a small pug or something. I do not consider that dog as dangerous, but some might construe it to be so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EA working dog, or any dog, that is suddenly woken by its master, or, indeed, by a child or anybody else, instantly reacts. I myself from time to time have had the jaw of a good dog clamped on my wrist or hand before it realised that it was the hand that fed it\u2014literally. Even sensible, sound dogs, if not approached correctly, can react. I have had dogs caught in fences. When I have rushed over to stop them from breaking a leg, they have clamped their jaws on whatever part of me they can get hold of, because they think it is me who is hurting them and causing them very real pain. So we have situations where members of the public unwittingly, through wanting to help an animal in some distress, are bitten. A dog with unrecognised pain, whether it be in a leg, back, shoulder, or whatever, will react to that, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EWe also get situations where dogs become very protective of their owners. They become very territorial. That is just an instinctive part of what a dog is. Some would regard a dog that attacked in a territorial situation as being dangerous. Well, no, that is not so. It is part of the natural process of that animal. The problem is the lack of understanding of the general public in not recognising that that situation will occur.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI note with some humour, on this rather serious subject, that dogs that actually lunge or chase cars can also be regarded as dangerous. Well, dogs often chase cars, but once they catch one they do not have a clue what to do with it. That is often the way. Members of the public swerve to get out of the way of an animal, whether it is a possum, a dog, or a cat, and thereby endanger their own lives or, indeed, those of other road users. Again, it is not so much the fault of the animal; it is, in fact, a lack of understanding by the general public of how to handle those situations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI mentioned earlier that part of the New Zealand psyche was the keeping of pets. All of us enjoy these concepts. I recall that just recently a tiger used in a show mauled its owner after many years of a perfectly fine relationship. Animals will react uncharacteristically sometimes, in certain situations, and we do not know enough about that. The reaction of our community is to ban dangerous dogs, ban tigers being used in shows, and ban horses. I have a neighbour who was kicked in the face by a horse and has had titanium plates inserted. We cannot turn round and react to those appalling situations\u2014as they are\u2014by passing laws to stop them. In fact, that is not what happens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EI am concerned as much as anybody else in this House about gang members and dog breeders who deliberately breed fighting dogs to gain some status or mana. That is absolutely outrageous. One problem is that the existing law is not being utilised to ensure that those people are not allowed to perpetuate that practice. Cross-breeding in the animal kingdom cannot be stopped. As any good breeder of any animal will tell us, the straight breed is not the problem; it is the cross-breed. How do we stop that? How do we legislate for those concepts? Microchipping may well help in some circumstances, but the predators in our society\u2014those who live on the other side from law-abiding citizens\u2014will not worry two hoots about this legislation. They will not line up to register their pit bulls, Dobermanns, or whatever they might be, down at the local regional council office. We will penalise only the good, decent, law-abiding dog owners up and down the country who ensure that their dogs are well cared for and well looked after and have the right temperament. Regrettably, we have to accept that if animals are to be part of our lives, whether they be horses, dogs, or cats, there is an element of risk. That is part of the price we pay, and it was a rather terrible price in the case of little Carolina.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022 data-id=\u0022ad66dd570d8549d0a54e53b1c2ccf7fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ad66dd570d8549d0a54e53b1c2ccf7fb\u0022\u003EMIKE WARD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E Gerry Eckhoff and the Minister of Local Government made the point that it takes good dog-owners to prevent attacks on children. The Green Party shared the concern of all New Zealanders when Carolina Anderson was savagely attacked last year. It is entirely understandable that Parliament should question the effectiveness of the law. There is always room for improvement. The attack on Carolina indicated some shortcomings in the law. It also indicated a law that was inadequately enforced. During the select committee hearings it became evident that some local authorities do a less than adequate job of dog control. None the less, there are shortcomings in the law, and the bill does seek to address those.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe heard from dog control officers of their frustration at not being able to pursue problem dogs on to private property. They will now be able to do that. The bill also requires local authorities to report on their enforcement measures. The best-practice guidelines will include reporting procedures. How will those measures help? I suspect that local authorities will increasingly come under scrutiny over problem dogs. Those reporting procedures will help that scrutiny to be done more effectively.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003ESubmissions stressed the importance of the education of dogs, owners, and the general public. We would have preferred dog obedience classes to be mandatory for new dog-owners and their dogs. But there are good dog-owner provisions in this bill, with the possibility of cheaper registration fees for dogs whose owners have taken them through dog-training courses. That will provide some sort of incentive. The Minister also spoke of his intention to proceed with public education on appropriate behaviour around dogs. We look forward to that happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe have some concerns about breed-specific measures. There is little evidence around the world to show that it works. Although we have little difficulty with excluding dogs that have been bred for fighting, which are virtually non-existent here\u2014like the tosa, the fila, and the dogo Argentino\u2014we note that American pit bull terriers are notoriously difficult to identify and are not a specific breed. Such a ban is likely to catch a range of breeds that have no more history of aggressive behaviour than most dogs that are not on the list of dangerous breeds. The call to focus on the deed and not the breed makes some sense. We are concerned that if we identify some dogs as dangerous and require them to be muzzled, neutered, etc., some owners will simply train other dogs to behave aggressively. We are also concerned that some may think that if a dog is not muzzled, if it is not a fila, a tosa, a dogo, or an American pit bull, less care is required around it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EAlthough posties, meter readers, and visitors should be able to approach a house without fear of being eaten, we are pleased that the provision requiring a fence to the front door has been replaced by a simple requirement that the dog owner must make sure that his or her dog or dogs are under control, and must decide how that should be achieved. I notice that the chair mentioned that, for dangerous dogs, such a fence will still be required. I did not know that was the case. I thought the owner could chain the dog up in the backyard or confine it to part of the section.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EIn view of the fact that very few of the around half a million dogs here are problem dogs, we believe that microchipping just dangerous dogs, menacing dogs, and dogs that have been impounded is adequate. The bill also provides for local authorities to make microchipping mandatory for all dogs in their jurisdiction, if they believe that is the best method of control for them. I notice that New Zealand First is prepared to support compulsory microchipping, so it sounds like it will happen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThis legislation will cover one of my other concerns, and that is the belief that all hunting dogs should be required to be microchipped. Escaped hunting dogs are believed to be major offenders in attacks on farm animals and wildlife. Owners of such dogs need to be accountable for their dogs\u2019 actions, and to be subjected to the provisions of the law that make them liable to be banned from owning dogs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe believe that there needs to be a national register of dogs that is funded by central government. We do not believe that microchipping is a prerequisite for that national register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EProbably all of the over half a million dogs in New Zealand are capable of attacking and biting, but, overwhelmingly, most do not do that. A tiny minority of dogs are problem dogs, and most of them are roaming dogs, barking dogs, and dogs that foul footpaths. Most dogs are companion dogs. Far from threatening anybody, they make their owners feel safer, not because they are trained to protect their owners physically, but because they are likely to warn of possible danger. When one has company, even the company of a dog, one feels so much safer. Any attempt to protect us against the rare and, for the most part, entirely unpredictable dog attack must be tempered by recognition of the fact that most dogs are loyal companions. I venture to suggest that for every dog attack there are literally thousands of occasions when the elderly, the frail, and the vulnerable feel safer out and about, or at home, because of their dogs. Because of their dogs, they do things they would not otherwise do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThis bill spells out again the responsibility of dog owners to keep strangers safe by ensuring that visitors to their homes are not threatened. Where appropriate, physical constraints may be used, but the bill also reinforces the importance of education of the dogs, of their owners, and of children and adults about appropriate behaviour around dogs. The bill recognises that most attacks occur by a dog known to the person being attacked, and recognises the requirement to strike a balance between the need to provide protection against dangerous and menacing dogs, and the needs of the overwhelming majority of dog owners and their pets, who pose little risk. Although there are penalties, and some of those have been strengthened, there are also carrots for those dog owners who are prepared to earn the status of being a responsible dog-owner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EWe see the good sense in ensuring that areas frequented by children are free of uncontrolled dogs. We are pleased to note too, however, that the local authorities have a responsibility to make sure that there are areas where people can exercise their dogs. We hope most local authorities will be smart enough to realise that those areas need to be available around most neighbourhoods. Not everybody is able to go long distances to visit an appropriate dog-exercising area. It is important that the need of dog owners to exercise their dogs is provided for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003EThe Greens will be supporting this bill. It is good legislation. The point has been made by others that it alone will not stop dogs from attacking, but I hope it will persuade more dog owners to be more responsible, and thus will make dog attacks in the future a little less likely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u00229d9af1a7e9ce4dba99c40784b4ba665c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d9af1a7e9ce4dba99c40784b4ba665c\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of the bill, on behalf of United Future. Since its introduction in July 1999, the bill has undergone a somewhat elongated process. More recently, following a recent spate of highly publicised dog attacks, in particular the horrific attack on young Carolina Anderson, it seems that the Government has been moved to respond, by addressing the dog control laws and putting some new teeth into the regulations. It was particularly pleasing to receive a call today\u2014and I imagine many members of the Local Government and Environment Committee may have received a call\u2014from John Anderson, the father of Carolina, who indicated his pleasure with regard to the way that the bill has come out from the select committee. It is always rewarding to be able to make a member of the New Zealand public happy who has gone through such a horrific experience. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI want to express my appreciation to the officials who helped us through the process, and for the excellent chairmanship of the committee by David Parker, who took us through the process very efficiently, without any roadblocks or delays. It has been good to work on this bill because we have, I believe, come up with very good legislation and it has been great to see the cooperation in the committee stage. The committee has done a comprehensive job of striking an appropriate balance between public safety and dog owners\u2019 responsibilities. That has included removing some of the more draconian ideas that were contained in the initial Government proposals\u2014for example, the fencing requirement that stated there had to be unimpeded access to the front door of a house. That has been abolished, in favour of requiring dogs to be made secure on a property. Farmers\u2019 working dogs will be exempt from that requirement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe committee also addressed the issue of breed bans. We heard a great deal on that issue from the submitters. While banning the importation of certain breeds such as the Japanese tosa, the Brazilian fila, and the dogo Argentino is fairly straightforward, many submitters considered identifying the American pit bull terrier too problematic in respect of the number of crossbreeds and associated breeds in the country. Hence the amendment by the committee to define the pit bull as a type of dog, rather than as a specific breed. The intended effect of that is to make enforcement of the new measures concerning pit bulls less prone to the technicalities with regard to crossbreeds. I believe that we have come up with a reasonable working solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWhile the committee was still deliberating on this bill I was in Europe and managed to meet with the UK dog legislation people, to check out that legislation. We heard a great deal during the select committee submission process about how the UK legislation was not working. I point out to the House that the UK legislation is very, very different from what we are introducing here. For a start, there is no dog registration at all in the UK, and it completely stunned me to learn that. The UK has a ban on the ownership of pit bulls, which enables the police there simply to apprehend any pit bull dog or any dog they consider to be a pit bull, to remove it, and to fine the person who may be the owner of it. We are not taking that measure here; we are not banning the pit bull. We are simply classifying it as a menacing type of dog, and giving some power to dog control officers to require the owners of such dogs to muzzle them when they are in public. I do not feel that is too onerous a requirement for those who do love their dogs. We have a German shepherd, and would be very disappointed if we had to get rid of it. We understand the sentiment behind many dog owners opposing the breed-specific legislation, but I believe we have found a reasonable balance. I received a letter today from the New Zealand Veterinary Association. I believe there is still a lot of misunderstanding about what we achieved in the select committee, because the association makes the comment that dogs should be classified as dangerous by their actions, rather than on the basis of their breed. Well, of course we are not classifying certain breeds as dangerous; we are classifying them as menacing. The requirements are reasonably light, I believe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EWe also discussed in the select committee an exemption for those people who take their dogs to dog shows in the weekends, whether it be to obedience trials or to dog shows. That is a very common and favourite pastime across New Zealand. If an owner has a dog that has been classified as menacing, he or she can have an exemption so as not to have to muzzle it while it is performing or competing in the show. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAs far as United Future is concerned, the issue has always been about better enforcement of the existing laws and providing dog control officers with the tools and resources they need to do that. To that end, we are pleased that the bill contains a number of positive amendments to the principal Act. I am particularly indebted to the Tauranga District Council\u2019s dog control officer, John Payne, who has an excellent knowledge of the existing Act and was able to give me some very, very helpful guidance as we went through the process of making amendments to the legislation. He has come up with a number of suggestions, which I am happy to say have been adopted by the committee and by the officials, to improve the existing legislation. Dog control officers have been given increased powers and rights to enter private property in order to apprehend dangerous dogs and impound them. Councils will be audited to ensure that they are applying the law. That is very, very important. We have a wide range of compliance across the country, and it is important that councils do their part in applying the existing laws and these new laws that will be given to them in the near future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EInfringement fees have been increased to some extent\u2014in particular, the fee regarding non-registration, which I want to mention briefly. I believe we will have a discussion in the Committee this week. It is important we do not increase that infringement fee too much, or else councils will not enforce it. The problem today is that many councils are not enforcing that fee. They are basically letting people not register their dogs, and when they are caught they can then register them. That contributes to the problem, rather than providing a solution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe probationary category of dog ownership will be retained, and that is important. For most dog control officers, dog control enforcement is not necessarily about heartlessly locking up people\u2019s dogs if they have been found to be out of control, and fining the owners. By and large their approach has been to try to work with dog owners, and to educate them so that they can better control their dogs. Many dog control officers report that the probationary dog ownership status is an essential part of the process of producing good dog owners, as it can require dog owners to undertake dog education and learn from those who are experienced with dogs. Dog control officers report that there are problems with the surcharge provisions within that probationary category. I hope we may address them in the Committee stage, because those problems have often led to dog control officers not using that category, which otherwise would be very useful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOf course, there will always be dangerous dogs out there that need to be taken off the streets, and their owners penalised for their disregard for public safety. The bill deals with those sorts of offenders, as well. A jail term of up to 3 years, or a fine of $20,000, is a significant new deterrent to would-be irresponsible owners. However, all the new penalties and infringement fees operate after the fact of an attack. They do not stop children receiving injuries, and do not stop dangerous dogs attacking people. Preventing attacks will not be successful unless councils get tough on stray dogs and ensure that owners keep their dogs under control in the first place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EOne aspect of that is the establishment of a national database for dogs. It is United Future\u2019s belief that essential to dog control enforcement is the ability of dog control officers to distinguish quickly and accurately between registered dogs with owners, and strays. With effective identification through reference to a nationwide database, strays can be impounded and the owners of registered dogs can be tracked down and dealt with appropriately. United Future is not presently convinced that the mandatory microchipping of all dogs is necessary for such a database to be effective. It is, after all, just a method of identification. Although in some cases it will provide a better method than those currently used, we are still not fully convinced that the merits of requiring all dogs to be microchipped are there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EHowever, it is important that we see the establishment of the national database, for that is really the key issue. We want to see the Government committed to establishing a standardised nationwide database so that when called upon, accurate information about any dog can be retrieved quickly. Our present system of ad hoc local databases is clearly failing us. Presently, many local councils do not bother to adequately maintain or update them. They all have different kinds of information on them. I believe that one idea, which was not discussed within the committee, was that it was not necessary to have mandatory microchipping in order to have that database. We could have a database based upon all the information already contained within councils, relating to owners who register their dogs. So a combination of both would be a useful tool for dog control officers to use, and we hope to see that advanced through the Committee stage, also. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThere are many other amendments that, again, have been addressed through the help of the submitters. One, in particular, is concerned with the leashing of all dogs. There was a great deal of concern from submitters that we would mandatorily require all dogs to be leashed at all times in the public arena. We found a sensible compromise there, by requiring owners to at least have a leash in hand so that, if necessary, they may control their dogs. I believe that results in a much better bill, and I commend it to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c18bfd11ac3c43abbe3d5d8dc555e876\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Local Government and Environment Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 109\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13;Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 7\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 7.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000537\u0022\u003EBill to proceed.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000538\u0022\u003EName changed to Dog Control Amendment Bill.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002240d75cc0b3c34d708ef5a3580e1ca603\u0022\u003EArchitects Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220bf9fe34bd0648a9859a7d0398184e8c\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cbe5b17200dd4b86b37a9e6630929f94\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cbe5b17200dd4b86b37a9e6630929f94\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Architects Bill be now read a first time. I will be moving that the bill be referred to the Government Administration Committee to be considered alongside the Building Bill, as it represents an integral element of the wider review of the Building Act and the actions we are taking to improve inputs into the building process. Like the Building Bill, this bill has been the subject of extensive consultation with affected parties. During the drafting stages, officials consulted the Architects Education and Registration Board, and the bill reflects that input. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EIn my speech in the first reading debate on the Building Bill, I said that it was the Government\u2019s view that buildings should be designed and built right the first time. This bill provides for the first element of that\u2014buildings designed right the first time. It repeals the Architects Act and introduces a modern regulatory framework for architects. Competent people lead to competent building design. Both the Hunn committee and the Government Administration Committee inquiry into the weathertightness of buildings in New Zealand identified a need to improve standards in the building industry. This bill makes a number of changes to improve those standards in respect of architects, drawing on recent practice in occupational regulation and, in particular, on the Chartered Professional Engineers of New Zealand Act. It also fits with the architects\u2019 desire to update their legislation, which is now 40 years old. We have worked with the New Zealand Institute of Architects and the Architects Education and Registration Board in the development of this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EPart 1 outlines the commencement of the bill and other preliminary provisions. Part 2 outlines the registration, complaints, and disciplinary processes and procedures that will apply to architects. A key feature of this part is the introduction of both initial and ongoing competency assessment for architects. The current legislation allows for only the initial competency assessment of architects. At the moment, an architect can remain registered indefinitely, provided he or she pays the applicable fees and does not act in a manner that may result in removal from the register. The current legislation fails to ensure that initial competency standards are maintained or, indeed, to recognise the potential for changes in design methods over time to require different competencies from those initially tested. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EProviding people with the information they need to choose competent individuals to undertake building design is also important. The bill does that by continuing to protect the title of architect, and by establishing a public register that includes details of disciplinary action taken against an architect over the preceding 3 years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EEnforcement and sanctions must also be meaningful in order for a regulatory regime to work as intended. The criteria for disciplinary action under the 1963 Act are considered to have set the threshold for action too high to allow the regime to work effectively. The bill establishes new criteria that set out the grounds for disciplinary action. Penalties have not been increased since the 1963 Act came into force. They are outdated and provide little deterrent to offending. The maximum fine for breaches of the Act is $200. The bill increases the maximum fine for breaches to $5,000, in line with comparable maximum fines under the Chartered Professional Engineers of New Zealand Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EPart 3 of the bill establishes a new board\u2014the New Zealand Architects Registration Board\u2014to replace the existing Architects Education and Registration Board. This part of the bill also modernises the reporting and financial accountability requirements of the registration board, its functions, and other administrative processes and procedures, so that they are in line with current practice for regulating occupational groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe final part of the bill deals with miscellaneous provisions and the transitional arrangements to the new regime. It gives 1 year for the new board to develop rules and regulations governing architects, after which the new controls will come into force. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EThe bill is an integral element of the wider review of the Building Act and is complementary to the Building Bill, which has already been referred to the Government Administration Committee. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u00221ff4e81decb64387bf16f0d5af1a80ae\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ff4e81decb64387bf16f0d5af1a80ae\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E I start by stating that the National Party will support the Architects Bill going to the Government Administration Committee. We will be watching it carefully as it proceeds through the select committee, with a particular eye on the cost regime it will impose on people who use the services of architects. I say at the outset that I am a person who has, on quite a regular basis, used the services of architects. I congratulate the people in that profession on their creative ability, and I say that over the time that I have observed the building industry New Zealand has made dramatic improvements in design, and there are now buildings being created throughout New Zealand that will be seen as remarkable creations in their own right in the years to come.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E We welcome the updating of the legislation, which is now 40 years old. We have had considerable problems with leaky buildings throughout New Zealand and, in particular, those problems have been associated with some designs in Auckland. There is no doubt that it is timely for the Government to take a look at the current regime for the registering of architects. I congratulate the Government and the Minister on taking the opportunity to review legislation that is 40 years old. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EOn reading the bill, I note that some work has been done on the regulatory impact and compliance cost statement. When I read that, I was far from convinced that the legislation would not impose considerable additional costs on the people who use the services of architects. Ultimately, those people are the consumers who are building houses up and down New Zealand. As the bill proceeds through the select committee, the National Party members on that committee will be watching carefully, to make sure that it is not something that imposes excessive costs as a means of ensuring a little more safety around the services of architects\u2014costs that, no doubt, will be borne by the client of a particular architectural service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWe will wait with interest as the legislation proceeds through the select committee. We reserve our position as to our long-term support for the legislation, depending on the select committee process, but we certainly welcome the bill into the House at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022 data-id=\u0022dedb8d5b8eb54e86ac4426e03d2a195c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a4a99a7-292a-4829-ade5-e825f9be4940\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dedb8d5b8eb54e86ac4426e03d2a195c\u0022\u003EHon TAITO PHILLIP FIELD (Associate Minister of Justice): \u003C/span\u003EI am very happy to stand in support of this Government initiative to update our architects legislation. It is much needed after 40 years. We believe the Government Administration Committee will do a good job in terms of a proper review, and will perhaps come up with amendments to the legislation that will be warranted. So we are very supportive of the legislation, and look forward to the select committee\u2019s deliberations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u002291bcdb1a83fa4d078b97636a23d45c1a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002291bcdb1a83fa4d078b97636a23d45c1a\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Architects Bill continues the registration regime, replacing the current 1963 Act. That Act has been around for 40 years and is long overdue for an upgrade, but not for a complete upgrade. The most important part of the upgrade in this bill is really to do with the fines: increasing the maximum fine from $200, which was probably quite a lot of money 40 years ago, to a figure of $5,000. That will probably hit the pocket of an architect who is out of line with the industry, and who therefore probably deserves to be hit in that way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EOne of the issues we would like to explore in this bill is that people who are already members of the Institute of Architects and registered under the 1963 Act are to be automatically registered under the new legislation. Although they are deemed to be registered under the new Act, they have to re-register prior to 30 June 2007. Existing architects are subject to the new legislation in full from the time it comes into effect on 1 July 2005, but they must re-register. We cannot understand that. Why do they have to re-register, even though their registration has rolled over and they are covered by the new legislation? I cannot work out the reason for that provision. When the existing registration of architects is transferred over, they fall under the requirements of this new legislation, and those requirements provide that they comply with the legislation and the ongoing competency examinations to ensure that they are up to date with changes in design methods, so that they know the design methods that are coming through and can identify them and use them in their building designs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThe idea of re-registration was brought about by the weathertight homes inquiry. During that inquiry it was discovered that there was a wide range of causes of the problem, and I would suggest that the competency of architects was not one of the major ones. The problem of leaky homes and what have you was not necessarily the result of ongoing incompetence in the practices of architects. Instead, it was a combination of the Building Act, a building code that encouraged design innovation, and a climate of rapid development and cost cutting, combined with the unexpected results of mixing newly introduced materials. Those results were unexpected, and I do not believe that any amount of competency examination or ongoing training would have made any difference to the weathertight homes problem. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EAfter all, the Building Industry Authority and the Building Research Association of New Zealand, which are both responsible for monitoring, testing, and approving the use of new materials, approved practices such as the mixing of monolithic cladding with untreated timber. Why, therefore, should any architect, having been told that those materials were OK to use together, be sceptical of that, whether or not he or she had had any additional training? The Building Industry Authority refused to acknowledge that there was a developing problem during that time, even though it was presented with examples of the rotting timber and the problems with leaks, and also with numerous reports from overseas that confirmed a major problem was developing. I cannot see that the ongoing testing of architects for competency would have made any difference whatsoever in that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EOne major requirement we are asking for is that the Government and the select committee consider delaying the full passage of this bill until after the Building Bill has been fully considered and thought through. There are a number of issues within the Building Bill that could well affect this particular bill, and I would hate to see the new Architects Bill pushed through the House, and all of a sudden we discover, after the Building Bill has been completed, that this bill is out of step with that new legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a165125b98ad471e91e319194ebc5a75\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s why it\u2019s going to the Government Administration Committee, so that you can deal with that issue there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b49a6f95cdda4049aa8d9dbb80a8527e\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: I am pleased the Minister is saying that this bill will go through the Government Administration Committee. I am pleased she is saying that. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289d049408c6c455fafbcdda42d3ba3b7\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Aren\u2019t they rude?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224af1edc7299c438985e187ccce49c9bb\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: They are absolutely rude. They bleat all the time, do they not? My request is that the House does not complete its consideration of this bill ahead of the Building Bill. The Minister is assuring me that because this bill is to be dealt with by the same select committee that is considering the Building Bill that will not happen. But because we have the Building Bill, the building code will subsequently have to be revisited. I would hate to see this bill being superseded rapidly because of a change in the Building Bill and the new building code.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f80a756db7324ba786e37ae4565e1806\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The building code has nothing to do with this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022227bbcfba6584605a5027ebb2dafc348\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: The building code practices have everything to do with this bill. If architects do not understand the building code, how can they possibly design a building that will fit in with and measure up to the required building code? The Minister is suggesting that we have a building code that is put around whatever is decided in this bill. The building code should be the measure that decides how people operate and how people build buildings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a0bcc95be124417a8ad9a7529abe52f\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: This bill is based on ongoing competency, not 1 year\u2019s competency and payment of an annual fee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1a6024edb1344b088b394a3ba4f0a7f\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister wants to carry on about competency and the annual fee, so I will talk about the annual fee and the ongoing competency requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EThose measures will add huge compliance costs, because there will be a considerable increase in the requirement for architects to upgrade and update their skills, and to prove that they have upgraded their skills on a regular basis so they continue to be qualified for registration as an architect. If they fail to continue to upgrade their skills, they will fall foul of this legislation. That is great. That is important, but it will cost an awful lot of money.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022097350e371d248e789a33b907b233812\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The architects want this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f0478a4e9574d86a8891ac71f7ab5fb\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the Institute of Architects is pleased that this bill justifies the institute\u2019s existing procedures, because it already has an ongoing registration scheme and an ongoing training and competency scheme. But the preamble to the bill suggests that a lot of architects do not belong to the institute. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003EI would suggest that most of them do. They are properly qualified. Architects are fully qualified members of the institute, and they already have to be registered under the current Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First supports this bill going to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u0022440da61a469e4b6ea7d12276822fb257\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022440da61a469e4b6ea7d12276822fb257\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will support the bill. It enables a good registration system for architects, and we are particularly pleased that it makes provision, under clause 67(1)(c), for a code of minimum standards of ethical conduct for architects. I think that is very important, because there is quite a difficult problem in Auckland at the present time, which has been highlighted over the last week by the New Zealand Herald\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8a32a99b5e34611b2b3de2a70254a26\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. We have a problem over here. I am sitting right beside Keith Locke, and I am having trouble hearing him because the senior Government whip is screaming at the Ministers Lianne Dalziel and Ruth Dyson. I know that you noticed it, Madam Speaker, and I apologise, but it is very hard in the House if they have long-range conversations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee95931b96a4cf8b00076725df21dd2\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite correct. If members are having conversations, then they should be sitting down. I ask the Minister to please sit down while conversing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf5cacd767b1404c9a4f2eb5fc8a2a68\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE\u003C/span\u003E: I will talk about the code of ethics and its importance, given that, at the moment, Auckland faces the problem of the very rapid development of apartment blocks and units. As the New Zealand Herald pointed out in a series of articles over the past week, some of the buildings are of very poor architectural standard. There will be huge development\u2014at the present time there are 45,000 units in Auckland, which is estimated to rise to about 500,000 units by 2050. We need to accommodate an extra 100 people per day in Auckland, so having the right built environment, with architects playing the best role in it, is very important. We just need to go through the streets of Auckland. I particularly dislike going along upper Symonds Street and seeing little boxes of very poor architectural standard. Throughout Auckland so many apartments are being constructed with poor noise insulation, no outlook, and often facing directly on to a neighbouring block. They are an eyesore to the community, and to people passing by them, and are certainly an eyesore for the people who live in them. People get quite depressed if they live in that sort of poorly designed unit, and live in such units for many years. It is not good for people\u2019s mental health and well-being. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EIt is not just a problem for architects. It is a problem for the community as a whole, and particularly for town planning systems. Auckland City and other cities are trying to address these problems. Auckland City has urban design standards, but they do not really apply to the suburbs in the way that they should, and Auckland City is trying to develop guidelines to rectify this. I think that architects can play a great role, if they abide by the code of ethics and develop proper professional standards. They can make sure that the standards put forward by councils are upheld and implemented by architects, and work in with the community. Architects can be models for working with the community. Around Auckland, different communities are trying to insist on proper community design standards, to protect existing heritage buildings, etc. With this registration system, and with architects being more organised on the basis of a code of ethics, hopefully we can redress some of the problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Herald outlines exactly how it works. The problem is often that in designing apartments today, the best architects\u2014the ones who would insist on higher architectural standards\u2014are not getting the work, because developers come along and ask how they can build something the most cheaply, sell it on, and make the greatest profit for the smallest amount of expenditure. It is explained in the New Zealand Herald that if developers want to build 145 cheap apartments, they will find an architect who will do it. The problem is that there are architects around, who are not the best or are not quality architects, who take this work and build these very bad apartments. I think that this bill will help rectify that situation, so the Green Party will support it to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00228339948171014a6481623ea8779eecfb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228339948171014a6481623ea8779eecfb\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party is interested in this bill, and we will support it to the select committee for its consideration. This does not mean that we will support the bill at the end of that consideration, but we are certainly interested in what the public has to say. I was very interested in my colleague Keith Locke\u2019s comments, and I just wish that David Benson-Pope would cheer up and concentrate on what is going on in the House, instead of being a snarling, miserable member of the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0274ecd52fe4645a833bd3cef8fff77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0274ecd52fe4645a833bd3cef8fff77\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future supports the bill at the first reading, as we are keen to allow the select committee to review the legislation. United Future understands the purpose of the bill, but there are some important features that elicit concern. I will elaborate on the specifics of those concerns as I progress. Allow me to enlarge on what United Future sees as the intent of the bill. The public policy objectives are, firstly, to ensure adequate consumer protection; secondly, to build a framework of regulations that is both effective and efficient; thirdly, to ensure the proficiency of all who undertake work as registered architects; and fourthly, to improve confidence in the building industry. Few could argue that these interrelated objectives are without merit, and, as such, I support the policy rationale behind the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EA common thread running through the public policy objectives is the continued statutory protection of the title of \u201Carchitect\u201D. The saying that it takes only one bad apple to spoil a barrel can be applied to many professional fields of employment. I do understand that good cannot affect bad, and that only bad can affect good. Put the good apple in a bowl of bad apples and it is the good apple that changes, not the bad apple. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db35c175a6684a0fbd4a896fa663d138\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Can you just hand the notes out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bc454929272473e9d6a857c4f908e01\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Power that one cannot legislate the human heart, but we can build a nation that rewards excellence, and stands against crime, corruption, and shoddy practices. United Future believes that we should remove the bad apples and encourage the growth of good apples. Let us look at the architecture industry. It is feasible, particularly in a country the size of New Zealand, that architects who fail to properly exercise their respective professional responsibilities will, to some degree, tarnish the good name of their profession. The application of a more modern, stricter, regulatory framework will mean that any bad apples will be dealt with before the barrel goes to market. However, we might ask whether this is the most operative mechanism by which to ensure that standards are maintained for the benefit of architects and consumers alike. I believe that the bill has that potential. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003ELet us look at the new requirements for ongoing technical competency testing. This would provide many benefits. It will be a measurement of best practice. It will ensure that architects tentatively maintain levels of technical proficiency. It will allow consumers to gain from the proficiency of those professionals truly dedicated to their industry, its good name, and their individual reputations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EArchitecture strikes me as a robust and innovative industry, where boundaries are pushed and novel ideas are put into practice. It also strikes me as an industry that requires a solid bedrock of fundamental knowledge by all of its members. [Interruption] I say to thank you to Rodney Hide; it is very encouraging. We should ensure that those who wish to work as architects are compliant with this core knowledge throughout their careers. The introduction of ongoing competency testing should accomplish this, yet I believe we should be mindful not to over-regulate in a manner that would stifle innovation and suppress imagination. We should be mindful that an architect\u2019s desire to pursue roads not yet taken is to be encouraged, and does not need to be held back under the weight of regulatory compliance. In a nutshell, we should be mindful that architects are not whistled out of the game that they should excel in. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E Life, I have found, is not measured by the number of breaths we take but by the moments that take our breath away. Great architecture can produce such a moment and should be encouraged. Let me be clear that I understand the need to introduce a modern regulatory framework. It is past due, and the Architects Act needs to be repealed. However, I have concerns with the new regulatory framework with regard to issues of compliance costs and issues of public disclosure. With increased regulations comes the inclination to increase compliance costs. Although the bill modernises the regulatory framework, it does necessitate an increase in regulatory costs. Architecture will have to shoulder that, yet ultimately it will be the consumer who will no doubt pay the price for increased compliance costs. It is highly likely that those increased costs will be passed down to the consumer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAnother key area of concern\u2014and this does really concern me\u2014involves public disclosure. Allow me to draw attention to clause 19 of this bill. This clause allows for public access to a register of architects who have breached regulations and been censured within 3 years of the offence. I applaud both the concept of a code of ethics by which industry members are bound, and the revamping of the disciplinary process. But let me add a caveat. It concerns the public disclosure of disciplined architects. We certainly do not discourage greater transparency with particular regard to episodes of gross negligence. This is most certainly not a list an architect would want to end up on. It could be mortally damaging to his or her career. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EGiven the seriousness of being included in this register of shame, I believe that there should be discretionary aspects in deciding who is included on the register of shame. Let me illustrate this by asking whether it is just for an architect who commits a minor breach of regulations, and who is consequently disciplined, to be painted with the same brush as an architect who commits a flagrant breach of the regulations and is clearly grossly negligent in duty. Absolutely not! More thought should be given to the nature of the conduct breaches. It is unfair for an architect guilty of late payment of fees to be grouped with someone who endangers life through gross negligence. The weight of these very different breaches is clearly uneven and should be taken into account when deciding on who should be included in a register open to public inspection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAn appearance on this register would toll the death knell for an architects\u2019 career. The decision to include a person on the register should take into account the substance of the offence. I hope that the select committee will consider these concerns. They need to be addressed in light of the far-reaching consequences for architects and consumers alike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EQuite clearly, the Architects Act should be dispatched, to antiquity. It is outmoded and out of step with modern occupational regulations. The policy objectives of the bill are creditable and cannot, in all logic, be contested. However, to make the bill truly beneficial to architects and consumers alike, the aforementioned issues of compliance costs and public disclosure need to be addressed. Therefore, in light of these provisions, United Future will lend support to the Architects Bill being referred to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Government Administration Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c5ddef4a66d54c6fbfab01304f2848b7\u0022\u003EMercenary Activities (Prohibition) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ed8af5c2943c4a07b5bc64b38f0ba3eb\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022 data-id=\u00221019799b7d9b40c7a04e8584c750a6f6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221019799b7d9b40c7a04e8584c750a6f6\u0022\u003EHon PHIL GOFF (Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Mercenary Activities (Prohibition) Bill be now read a first time. I will propose that the bill be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. This bill contains legislation needed for New Zealand to become a party to the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries, which entered into force in 2001. The bill establishes new criminal offences for activities involving mercenaries that are not currently punishable under New Zealand law. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe use of mercenaries in armed conflicts is an age-old phenomenon. In recent decades, however, the international community has tried to curb this practice. These attempts reflected growing concern that the use of foreign mercenary forces could impede the exercise of the right to self-determination and violate the fundamental rights of individuals, including the right to life. New Zealand has long opposed the use of mercenaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe involvement of mercenaries as an additional party to a conflict impedes peaceful resolution of that conflict. During the Bougainville crisis, for example, the Papua New Guinea Government considered the use of foreign military personnel. New Zealand opposed this, arguing that the crisis would be resolved only through a comprehensive peace process. The mercenaries, in the end, were withdrawn, and the ensuing peace process did prove successful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EBy passing this bill and becoming a party to the convention, New Zealand will demonstrate its belief that the use of mercenaries is unacceptable as a method of conflict resolution, and that this issue needs to be tackled at the international level. The convention identifies particular conduct involving mercenaries that should be proscribed. This includes the conduct of the mercenaries themselves, and those who recruit, use, finance, or train them. The convention also includes measures aimed at increasing international cooperation, so that individuals who commit the specified acts can be brought to justice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill\u2019s definition of \u201Cmercenary\u201D reflects the definition in the convention. It encompasses two types of mercenary, both of whom have the objective of making a profit from participating in conflict. The first type is a person who is recruited to fight in a foreign, armed conflict. This definition is based on a provision in the first protocol to the Geneva conventions. In this context, the monetary incentive must be measurable, with the person being paid substantially more than members of the armed forces of the parties to the conflict for corresponding duties. The second type of mercenary is a person who is recruited to participate in a concerted act of violence in another country\u2014for example, an act aimed at overthrowing the Government. Again, the person\u2019s main objective in performing the act must be to make a significant financial gain. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe definition of \u201Cmercenary\u201D is not intended to catch those persons who join foreign armies on the same basis as locally recruited staff, or those persons who are motivated to fight overseas by personally held convictions rather than profit. The definition would not catch New Zealanders recruited into the legitimate armed forces of other countries, such as Australia and the United Kingdom. Nor would it encompass those working overseas for companies or non-governmental organisations in security related activities, as long as those activities do not include fighting in a civil conflict. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThese definitions reflect the international consensus on those who clearly should be regarded as mercenaries. There are, however, calls for the definition to be extended to reflect current realities, including the increasing involvement of mercenaries in criminal activities such as illicit trafficking, including arms and drugs, and even selective assassinations. Extending the scope of the convention has been the subject of recent recommendations by the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Mercenaries. However, in this bill the definition of a mercenary remains as currently described in the convention. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThe bill creates five new offences, each with a maximum penalty of 14 years\u2019 imprisonment. The approach taken is to model the new offences on similar existing offences where possible. For example, the offences relating to recruitment and financing are similar to those in the Terrorism Suppression Act of 2002. The bill also creates two offences relating to the training of mercenaries as a precondition to or after recruitment. The bill aims to catch those who intentionally train people to be mercenaries in order that they can sell their fighting skills to other countries for profit. It does not therefore cover those in the New Zealand armed forces who train our troops, or who, as part of their duties, go overseas to assist with the training of the armed forces of other countries. It would also not catch ex - New Zealand soldiers who assist with upskilling the armed forces of a particular country. What is caught, however, is the situation where those being trained are part of an army for hire, prepared to go anywhere, or fight in any war, or overthrow any Government, for money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EExtraterritorial jurisdiction is taken in certain circumstances\u2014for example, allowing prosecutions of New Zealand nationals, or of others alleged to have committed a convention offence who are found in New Zealand but for some reason are not extradited. Other provisions include those relating to cooperation with other States in their criminal investigations and proceedings, and are similar to those in the Terrorism Suppression Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003EThese new offences will discourage the use of New Zealand as a base for mercenary activities. The broad jurisdiction allowing prosecution here for acts done overseas will help ensure that mercenaries do not regard New Zealand as a safe haven. The bill will put New Zealanders on notice that they cannot, under our law, agree to be recruited to fight and kill simply because it is lucrative to do so. This bill therefore reaffirms New Zealand\u2019s long-standing position that it does not condone the use of mercenaries. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00228d769fb1a4cb4dbb8b23db3638b23199\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228d769fb1a4cb4dbb8b23db3638b23199\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E National intends to support this bill to the select committee, but we will be watching its passage through that committee with some interest. My understanding is that there are some reasonably significant Western nations that are not party to this convention, and it will be an interesting process to compare those countries\u2019 views on the applicability of a piece of legislation such as this with the bill that will probably now proceed to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhilst the bill will implement the International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing, and Training of Mercenaries\u2014the Mercenaries Convention\u2014there are questions to be asked about extraterritorial jurisdiction. In particular, questions need to be asked about the way that this convention would impact on the domestic law of New Zealand, and how that compares with other countries, such as the US, Australia, the UK, and Canada, which, I understand, are not implementing this particular convention. So whilst the National Party will be supporting this bill to the select committee, it will at the same time reserve the right to look closely during its passage at the matters I have just raised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0def2457a474db5ba3c6bcb5075f41b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0def2457a474db5ba3c6bcb5075f41b\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support this bill. My colleague the member for Roskill has already spoken about the reasons why the Government has brought this bill through. Just last Wednesday I returned to New Zealand after spending 6 days in the Solomon Islands. While there, I saw what ethnic conflict and the militarisation of gang warfare can mean in a community. We live in a Pacific that has some tensions and hotspots. Papua New Guinea is another country in our region that the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade has spoken about, and where mercenaries have been an issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003ENew Zealand has a proud record in international relations, in supporting the UN, and in being party to conventions to deal with a range of issues\u2014from disarmament, to preventing nuclear proliferation and mercenary activity. It is very important that this country be a powerful voice in the world community, speaking out against the recruitment of individuals as mercenaries and the fuelling of conflict that can happen even in our region. I strongly support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u002292c0a3dfa49141819a1297021c7c06b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002292c0a3dfa49141819a1297021c7c06b9\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First will not be supporting the Mercenary Activities (Prohibition) Bill. From the practical military experiences of our caucus\u2014not shared by other caucuses\u2014New Zealand First believes that this bill is not well considered. In fact, under this bill\u2019s definition, a member of our caucus would have been a mercenary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290782069ab4746939403a84987cbffdf\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: Nonsense!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e44d44b7e6045739c0f1c0ee8ada326\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It is quite true\u2014he would have been a mercenary. This bill is merely a belated attempt to try to catch up with, and become part of, the international politically correct community. It does not accept that mercenaries have been, and still are, a legitimate part of armed conflict worldwide. It is not our intention to support an ill-considered attempt to merit international favour at the cost of a long tradition that many of our ex-soldiers have been a party to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EIf I had to go to the select committee, I could quote people who in other years have been part of other armed forces, who have worked in the best interests of a country, and have maintained stability for Governments abroad. In this country, those people would be considered liable under this bill and fined or convicted for up to 14 years. That really is a nonsense. This bill is a quick attempt to become part of the international politically correct community. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EMy colleague who has just arrived in the Chamber will speak further on the matter. New Zealand First does not support this bill for the reasons I have given, and which will be outlined further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022ded9a60d6451458cb117cc5d0134c3a5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ded9a60d6451458cb117cc5d0134c3a5\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E It is good to hear Mr Peters speaking up. The ACT party, too, will not be supporting this bill. It is a bit rich that the Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Mr Phil Goff, is sponsoring this bill and talking about all the damage that mercenaries do around the world, when he is a man who was quite happy to go to the bunker with Yasser Arafat, cuddle up to him, hold his hand, and present a smiling face to the world, then have the\u2014well, one cannot say it, can one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f33fef840ac54813bfa19f663036f253\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The temerity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0aa869d2b2d4d4c9f4050a095f35059\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He has the temerity to come back to New Zealand, climb on his little soapbox, and say: \u201CHere is what New Zealand is going to do to sign up to an international convention.\u201D Are the leading First World nations signing up to this, I ask Mr Power? I do not think so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c699e7c6-53b9-470c-a14a-378cb6fc8a04\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb304352a1a44b3d9de52f9814193248\u0022\u003EHon Phil Goff\u003C/span\u003E: What about Italy and Belgium, for instance?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022329530cbd14e45ceba8aecdb21788c97\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: What about the United States and the UK? They always run off to their mates. So we say \u201CNo\u201D, and we say \u201CShame on Mr Phil Goff.\u201D, who is quite happy to be photographed with international terrorists, then come down here and climb on his high horse. The ACT party is against this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022 data-id=\u00220fdddaa234e044aa9b03eb2d31c99cea\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fdddaa234e044aa9b03eb2d31c99cea\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill. It is about time that this Government took action in this way, because there has been a very serious problem with mercenaries around the world for many years, particularly in Africa, where the operations of mercenaries have caused political crises and undermined the ability of the peoples of those countries to determine their own future in a proper manner. We can go back to the early 1960s when the mercenaries were very involved in the Congo, leading to the overthrow of the Lumumba Government and, for many years, to great chaos and death, particularly in eastern Congo, which has not really recovered since. There is ongoing violence in the eastern Congo today, and I think that the actions of the mercenaries 40 years ago contributed to that situation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThere are a number of mercenary organisations around the world, one of the two best known, perhaps, being Executive Outcomes, based on South African military officers who served the apartheid regime in South Africa for many years and then engaged in mercenary activities as the apartheid regime went down. Another firm, Sandline International, is notorious for its activities, firstly in Africa. It is led by a chap called Tim Spicer. I have just been reading an article on him, and he does not like the term \u201Cmercenary\u201D; he prefers the term \u201Ccontract soldier\u201D. I think that would also fit the definition of \u201Cmercenary\u201D in this bill\u2014somebody whose primary purpose is private gain. I think that would fit contract soldiers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003ENot only did Sandline International develop its operations in Africa and cause havoc and distress there in its pursuit of money, using its military capability; it then moved into our region in the 1990s, into Papua New Guinea. Its activities there caused a military coup when the army got upset about the Government of the day hiring Sandline to move into Bougainville to take charge there and smash militarily its independence movement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E We all know that the proper solution to that problem in Bougainville was a peaceful one. New Zealand to its great credit initiated the peace process there, and we did that by bringing all the parties for a start to Burnham military camp, getting them sitting down and talking to each other, and out of that evolved a very successful peace process. The very people whom Sandline International was brought in to smash, like Joseph Kabui, are now the leaders in Bougainville in a very peaceful situation. It is great credit to New Zealand that it went down that track, as opposed to the mercenary track that others were promoting. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have had problems in New Zealand with mercenaries that perhaps this bill would cover. I remember back to 1989, when there were advertisements in the New Zealand newspapers\u2014the Christchurch Press is an example, I think it was in July 1989\u2014by the Papua New Guinea Government for New Zealand helicopter pilots to fly helicopters on service in Bougainville for the Papua New Guinea army. I complained at the time, but there was no avenue for rectifying that complaint. In fact, New Zealand pilots were hired, much to the discredit of New Zealand, because there were rumours about very bad things done in those helicopters, including throwing people out of those helicopters while they were on operational missions\u2014that is, people who had been captured in Bougainville. New Zealand was associated with that; there is no definite proof that a New Zealand pilot was flying the helicopter at the time that someone was thrown out of the window, but there were helicopters flown by New Zealanders in Bougainville for Papua New Guinea for money at that time. They would be defined as mercenaries under this bill, and rightly so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAlso, we have a case of a chap called Alen Robbie who was working for a group in Auckland called Group 4 Security Ltd, back in the late 1990s, and he was recruiting for Sandline International. That was a very bad thing. Again, at the time I complained to the Minister who has presented this bill, but there was no redress at the time that a New Zealander in Auckland was involved in recruiting for Sandline International. This bill will help deal with that particular problem, too. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EThe definition in the bill is very appropriate: that is that one has to have the primary purpose of private gain, but some companies around the world do fit into a bit of a grey area in this respect. Some of them are American companies, which may have something to do with why some Governments that other speakers referred to have not gone along with this international approach of putting a ban on mercenaries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EWe have companies like Military Professional Resources Inc. that have been involved in what we might call training, but it is a bit more than training, in places like Croatia. This group was very much involved in training Croatian soldiers prior to enduring the Kryena campaign back in the 1990s where the Croatian Government, in those areas that had a lot of Serb civilians in them, launched a big operation, and hundreds of civilians were killed and some 170,000 people were driven from their homes. There has been a lot of concern about that operation ever since. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EAs an article in the Nation magazine indicates, there is a sort of grey area here between what is training and what is participating in a war. As Phil Goff pointed out, the definition is that one has to actually participate in a war. This article says that in a sense, whether Military Professional Resources Inc. directed the campaign is secondary: \u201COnce you provide training there is no way to control the way the skills you have taught are used.\u201D said Loren Thompson, a military specialist at the conservative Alexis de Tocqueville Institution. Given Croatia\u2019s record, he thought that training that Military Professional Resources Inc. did in that case could have helped prosecute that slaughter of many innocent people and the evacuation of 170,000 people from their homes. Technically, while training is not covered under this bill, and there is an exemption, as Phil Goff pointed out, for agencies that are involved just in security operations, there is a bit of a grey area there, so that in practice we might find it difficult to work out where the start and finish point is, in terms of whether a person or group is mercenary in practice. That is something we will work together on within the international community. It is good that New Zealand in this bill is being a good international citizen, working with others around the world to get rid of the scourge of mercenaries, of people who, for money, go around killing other people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b1f3bc3362ae4fe0bd28ed6160799156\u0022\u003EAmended Answer to Oral Questions\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c566c177197f4a97a5434e6e8ef1991f\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 7 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u00228f54340240534365a959fb2f9c006f1f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228f54340240534365a959fb2f9c006f1f\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I wish to make a personal explanation, just to clarify a change of name that I included in response to a question today. In response to a question from the Hon Peter Dunne, I just referred to the name of Chris Clarke as chief executive officer of private hospitals; it is, in fact, Andrew Blair. Mr Chris Clarke, whom I referred to later on in the answer, is the chief executive officer of the Hawke\u2019s Bay District Health Board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022836a280c3beb4906b1c7a51583a95b2c\u0022\u003EMercenary Activities (Prohibition) Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227a5f8313e3e94e288acc28828e717e0f\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000632\u0022\u003EDebate resumed.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u0022ac54dde987324fb3adcb2dd7d3ab2682\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ac54dde987324fb3adcb2dd7d3ab2682\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I do not have the detailed knowledge of international conspiracies that the member who preceded me has, nor do I have the same interest in the subject, but the issue that the Mercenary Activities (Prohibition) Bill deals with is an important one, and for that reason, because it is giving effect to an international convention signed in 1989, United Future will support it going to the select committee. But I want to give notice of two or three issues that we will be keen to pursue at that committee, because I think they do need clarification, in terms of the future of this bill. First, the bill, and, I think also to a slightly less confused extent, the original convention, refer to individuals, to persons who act as recruiters, to persons who train, to persons who do various sorts of things. Yet, as Mr Locke pointed out, there are a number of organisations that these persons operate on behalf of. It strikes me, on the face of it, a little odd that we create an offence for persons who recruit, train, or do whatever with mercenaries, but in effect we do not have any sanction on the organisations that employ them. I would have been interested to explore\u2014had the Minister been here\u2014by way of a question, that issue with him, as to what the rationale is for the emphasis on individuals, rather than the organisations that employ them. That is something we can pursue further at the select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ENext, I notice that in the bill itself there is reference in Part 3 to a number of actions that the Attorney-General has to take in terms of determining whether New Zealand has jurisdiction, whether consent to prosecutions ought to be given, whether the outcome of those prosecutions ought to be communicated to any persons. While I do not have any particular problem with those sections, it does strike me as a little strange, given the nature of the bill and what it deals with, that there is no reference within it to whether it is in conflict with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act, particularly in terms of the rights of freedom of association and other things that are enshrined in that legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI find it strange for this reason: over the last year the Attorney-General has made a particular point of obtaining the advice of the Crown Law Office on New Zealand Bill of Rights Act issues, and making that advice publicly available. We have done it on things like the Kyoto Protocol, and the counter-terrorism legislation. Now we have a bill that potentially affects the rights of perhaps a small number of people who might be involved in the mercenary industry, if I can call it that. It deals with the question of both jurisdiction within New Zealand, and clause 13 also covers extraterritoriality, yet at the same time it makes no comment at all about the rights that those people who are its target have under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act. I am curious as to why that omission is there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003ECertainly, the original convention makes no reference in that regard. One would not expect it to. However, I would have thought that a Government legislating to give effect to a convention of this type would want to ensure that the rights of its own citizens were protected to the greatest extent possible, notwithstanding the evil that they were seeking to outlaw. For that reason I am genuinely surprised that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act seems to have escaped mention altogether. There may be good reasons for it. I had hoped, as I said earlier, that the Minister would have been here and by way of interjection I would have sought an answer from him on that point. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EIt seems to me to be odd that we set up some very clear definitions of what we would regard in this legislation as now illegal in terms of recruiting someone to be a mercenary, in terms of using mercenaries, financing mercenaries, training prospective mercenaries, or training any mercenaries in terms of the way in which those people might participate in hostilities or any concerted act of violence, etc, etc, without putting any presumption on their part of what their rights might be and how they might be protected. I think that is an important issue, particularly when we are to make it possible for people to be extradited to New Zealand to face charges under this legislation\u2014if they ever eventuate\u2014and where we are putting some pretty severe penalties in place for an activity that by this legislation we regard as highly undesirable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWith those few thoughts I am happy to see the bill go to the select committee. I assume it will go to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee, although to my knowledge the Minister did not indicate that in his speech. I am sure the committee will want to give consideration to the issue in some detail. I do not think one should view this as a necessary extension of the counter-terrorism legislation that the House has been dealing with recently, although it is tempting to see the juxtaposition of the two events as more than coincidental. However, I think the two are quite separate events, but one might have a wry smile about the timing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EAs I said, this gives effect to an international convention that has been around since 1989. One is a wee bit surprised that New Zealand has taken 14 years to get to the point of bringing legislation to the House, but having done so we ought to consider it, and consider it properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022 data-id=\u002250ee0649eecc4c918f1636510d0013c5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002250ee0649eecc4c918f1636510d0013c5\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start my contribution by reading from the Concise Oxford Dictionary the definition of the word mercenary\u2014and this is the definition, not the Government\u2019s or some United Nations definition. It states: \u201CWorking merely for money or other reward. Hired soldier in foreign service.\u201D The problem with that definition is that it does not fit Mr Locke\u2019s or Mr Goff\u2019s view of a mercenary. They see mercenaries as being characters with no heart, cold-blooded killers with red bandannas around their heads\u2014giving that communist flavour that Mr Locke tends to prefer to democracy\u2014wearing belts of ammunition and out there bayoneting babies. That seems to be their view of a mercenary. By the Concise Oxford Dictionary definition, a mercenary is not one of those characters. Indeed, I was a contract officer\u2014as are, and were, many New Zealanders. To give this Government a bit of a steer, I refer it to the Christchurch Press of Monday, 3 November. It has quite a substantive article on soldiers for hire. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhilst Mr Locke may care to have his view, I point out to him that many people around the world have for years, generations, and decades given foreign service on behalf of another country\u2014as the honourable member across from me, Ashraf Choudhary, will know. Pakistanis, Baluchistanis, Indians, and Sri Lankans have all soldiered for money. The Queen\u2019s Ghurkas, who were based in Hong Kong for generations, are the most famous mercenaries we could ever think of. Suddenly, this left-wing socialist Government has now decreed them to be dishonourable people. I remind the Government that they are people to whom it continually looks to for the preservation of its freedom. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe Sultanate of Oman, where I worked and soldiered for 5 years as a contract officer, was protected and defended by Indians, Baluchistanis, and Iranians.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed4fd86256424f279dc4b32f49a46f82\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: What about the Pope?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022878a343c9a86411cb71e207940a7ed66\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: The Pope has his own private mercenary army. But suddenly today, because someone wants to sign up to a further tinpot, chicken-something agreement dreamt up by a bunch of left-wing loonies in the United Nations, we are to move legislation to outlaw those honourable people. Members should stop and think for a moment. Currently, there are people in New Zealand recruiting from our police. Right now, our police could be off to Iraq earning $1,000 a day. Are they the people the Government is trying to target? Is that considered mercenarial? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EUnder the definitions described in this piece of paper, it is all about money. What I read in this bill is that if Mr Locke\u2014God, please let it happen\u2014and Mr Donald were suddenly to get on their ideological high horses, put on green uniforms and fight for genetic engineering, and do it for nothing, they would be OK. They can go out and bomb and kill, put \u201Cnecklaces\u201D around people\u2019s necks\u2014like the African National Congress did\u2014and set fire to innocent women and children, but because they are doing it for no monetary gain, that is OK. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EUnder this legislation, the moment people get paid, they are mercenaries, and that is illegal. The legislation states that if people are getting paid more than the locals for doing the same job, then that makes them mercenaries. We have a lot of New Zealanders serving out there in Iraq clearing mines. Are we saying that they will do it for the same amount of money that an Iraqi gets paid? How stupid! They have families back here and New Zealand cost-of-living standards to meet. They are doing a brilliant job clearing mines and making life safe for other people, and this Government thinks they should hire out their services for the same rate of pay as an Iraqi. That is daft, dumb, and stupid. It does not even make sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWhat about people like Alan Johnson who was working for the World Food Programme and was in the building that was bombed in Iraq? Is he a mercenary? Maybe not, but many of the companies that hire people like Alan Johnson\u2014a friend of mine\u2014are also hiring people for private jobs. Be it protecting an oil rig, or protecting a vessel sailing through Indonesian waters from pirates, or providing people to kill poachers in Kenya, the same companies are hiring \u201Ccontract\u201D military people. I am not satisfied that these definitions do not capture all of those people. I am not satisfied that it is appropriate for Mr Locke to fight and kill people for ideological reasons, because he does everything for love and does not want to be paid, yet if I want to do the same thing for the same side and demand to get paid for it, I am a mercenary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EWe really need to think our way through this. Why is it that the British Government\u2014the Tony Blair, Labour-led Government\u2014has seen the value in such practices to the point where it has produced green papers. It knows that it has companies like the Armour Group, DSL, and other companies out there like Saladdin. What about John Tamihere\u2019s former business associates? John Tamihere, who is the chief executive officer of the Waipareira Trust, was a shareholder in a company that hired soldiers to snatch a businessman out of Indonesia.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7847b5605a64a47a39ddf60be65962e\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: With guns!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249848198eaad4a47872ca502a79d43b4\u0022\u003ERON MARK\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, with guns. Was that not a mercenarial action? What about this Government sitting here passing pious pieces of legislation like this whilst it condones Sandline\u2019s entry back in Papua New Guinea? Sandline is currently operating alongside New Zealand and Australian operatives, doing work that it has always done. Suddenly, such activities are not acceptable, yet we know it is happening. The questions are: what is legitimate work advanced in the interests of a free democratic world? What is legitimate work that is for our benefit? What is work that we do not necessarily want to talk about because we have allowed other people to do something that we know is an extension of our foreign policy? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EThe Brits, God bless their cotton socks, are far better at understanding this than anybody else. They have been doing it for decades. But oh no, not us\u2014we will sign up to a politically correct treaty from somewhere in the bowels of the United Nations. We will pass this touchy-feely, feel-good legislation. We will go out of here and pat ourselves on the back, but it does not mean anything. What it does do is turn a whole lot of New Zealanders who have done damn good work into criminals. What about the New Zealand military nurses who were contracted to go into the Middle East? Who was opposing them? It was East Germany. You know, the sort of people that Mr Locke and the Green Party support\u2014people who wanted to advance the ideological cause of communism all over the world and do it for a pittance, but kill and maim none the less. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003ENew Zealand nurses, Army officers, and pilots served throughout the Middle East against people like that, and with one stroke of the pen this Government\u2014whose Cabinet contains a member who has hired mercenaries\u2014says it should no longer happen. That is ludicrous; it does not even make sense. Mr Locke and the Green Party riled against the Counter-Terrorism Bill, saying that the Government was using terrorism as an excuse to ramrod through changes that breached people\u2019s rights and civil liberties. I would have thought they would have said: \u201CHere is another piece of legislation that Mr Goff has just said is justifiable that also breaches civil liberties.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EActually, it has nothing to do with it. Most of the people who are employed in this industry by British and American companies are out there working hand in hand, side by side, with American and British servicemen and women with the full knowledge and support of the British Government, the American Government, and even those they do not want to acknowledge them. Take the Mujahadeen. Who was over there fighting the Mujahadeen in the interests of the British? The SAS were. Who did they have working alongside them? They had hired ex-soldiers; people we now call mercenaries. In fact, they were contract officers plying their trade legitimately\u2014a trade learned and appropriately applied. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EI know full well who the Government wants to target in legislation like this, but let us get it right, because the definition here is so broad. The bill contains so much ignorance that it is not worth reading, because it captures the wrong people. If the Government wants to get New Zealand First support, there will have to be a heck of a lot of amendments to this bill. Quite frankly, I think we have more important things to spend our time on in this House than a piece of legislation like this. It should simply be dumped off the agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229e6a327c3be042d8acb08010bae85252\u0022\u003ECommissioner for Children Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f09f5485a8c449d6ab04757083cde2c2\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2ed79de170d426a9ea11cd5e2a7a5b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2ed79de170d426a9ea11cd5e2a7a5b2\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Commissioner for Children Bill be now read a second time. Before I get into my notes can I just mark the fact that the time that it has taken for this bill to move through the House means that we have seen the departure of one Commissioner for Children. I want to thank him for his outstanding service in the time that he was in this job, and to welcome into the role Cindy Kiro, who is now the Commissioner for Children, and who I think has already, probably in the eyes of everybody in the House, begun to stamp a very independent position for herself as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe Commissioner for Children Bill re-enacts the commissioner\u2019s functions as set out in the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act with enhancements that are consistent with the commissioner\u2019s primary role as an advocate for children. The purpose of this bill is to give effect to the provisions relating to the commissioner in a new, separate statute with explicit statutory powers. The bill also changes the commissioner\u2019s current investigative function so that the commissioner can investigate any decision or recommendation made, or act done or omitted, in respect of a child. This means that the investigative function is not limited to decisions made under the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe bill provides the commissioner with additional statutory functions and explicit powers to give better effect to the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The convention is one of the United Nations\u2019 core human rights instruments. It has 54 articles that set out a wide range of agreed rights to protect the entitlements and freedoms of children. New Zealand is required to report on progress in implementing its principles every 5 years. The convention is included as a schedule of the bill for information and reference purposes, in order to increase the general knowledge and understanding of the convention within New Zealand, and to reinforce this Government\u2019s commitment to that convention. Through this bill the commissioner is given a major role in raising awareness of the convention and in encouraging others to apply it in their work. In this way the bill is contributing to endeavours by New Zealand to strengthen the observance and implementation of the convention\u2019s principles with regard to the protection of children\u2019s interests, rights, and welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThere has been widespread support for this bill in the House. A member\u2019s bill sponsored by John Wright MP of the Alliance was introduced during 1999. On 25 May 2000 the Social Services Committee presented its interim report on the Parliamentary Commissioner for Children Bill with the intention that the interim report would serve to inform the drafting process for this Government-sponsored bill. This bill goes much further and provides the commissioner with new functions that include promoting the establishment of accessible and effective complaints mechanisms for children, and monitoring the nature and level of complaints; acting as an advocate for children\u2019s interests, rights, and welfare generally; promoting children\u2019s participation, and following an approach that gives due weight to their views; consulting children; presenting reports to any court or tribunal; and reporting to the Prime Minister on matters affecting children\u2019s rights. In short, this bill is evidence of this Government giving practical effect to its stated commitment to children, and to making life better for them in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EThe Social Services Committee received 23 submissions on the bill. As a result of the submissions received and the Social Services Committee\u2019s own deliberations, it has recommended a number of changes to the bill, all of which are supported. These changes strengthen and clarify the intent of the bill. There are three changes that I would like to mention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EA change that the Social Services Committee recommended, which I support, is a change to the title \u201CCommissioner for Children\u201D. It has been changed to \u201CChildren\u2019s Commissioner\u201D, and the title of the bill changed to \u201CChildren\u2019s Commissioner Bill\u201D. I would like to emphasise that the change to the title of the commissioner is quite significant and is no mere semantic. It gives the effect of placing greater emphasis on children as opposed to the commissioner. In addition, it better conveys the notion that the commissioner is representative of all children, and moves away from the notion of children being objects of concern who are dependent on the commissioner\u2019s protection. The amendment brings the name into line with those of other statutory office holders such as the Human Rights Commissioner, the Retirement Commissioner, and the Health and Disabilities Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EAnother change that the Social Services Committee recommended is the insertion of a new provision in the bill that requires that the responsible Minister advertise the vacancy or prospective vacancy of the Children\u2019s Commissioner in a manner that would enable suitably qualified individuals to apply for the appointment. A further amendment calls for the responsible Minister to have regard for the desirability of consulting organisations or persons who have a special interest in the functions of the commissioner, including organisations representing children, and children themselves. Overall, the comments in the submissions called for a more transparent process for the appointment of the commissioner. I fully support this change, and consider that it will further strengthen the perceived independence of the Children\u2019s Commissioner and the functions and powers of the office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EFinally, the Social Services Committee recommended the insertion of a new clause in the bill that requires the commissioner to develop means of consulting children. The Social Services Committee considered that in a bill focusing on welfare, rights, and the interests of children there should be provision for avenues through which children can contribute their own perspectives and concerns on an ongoing basis. This is in keeping with articles 12 and 13 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which require children to be heard in decisions affecting them and to be accorded the right to freedom of expression.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003EI once again want just to note Cindy Kiro\u2019s appointment in August as the fourth Commissioner for Children. She brings to this role her extensive public management and child advocacy experience, excellent academic qualifications, and a strong working knowledge of the Children, Young Persons, and Their Families Act, children\u2019s rights, and New Zealand\u2019s UN obligations. She is the ideal commissioner to undertake the responsibilities inherent in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E I thank those organisations and members of the public who made submissions on the bill. I also thank the Social Services Committee for its work and the considered changes that have been recommended. The changes made by that committee further enhance the intent and value that underpin this Government\u2019s commitment to the well-being of children. I commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u00224e6bf6e842924291a6b107016b595231\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e6bf6e842924291a6b107016b595231\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E First, it is not before time that this bill has come back in the House. The first reading was on 10 October 2001, so there seems to have been a long period of time between the first reading and getting the bill back to the House today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI have to say the Minister has probably chosen the wrong time to bring this bill back to the House. It is somewhat ironic that we are talking about the welfare of children, advocacy for children, and the Commissioner for Children in a week where the main debate has been about the whole Department of Child, Youth and Family Services\u2014a department that is very much in crisis. We have seen the department this week try to rebut many of the criticisms that were brought up in the First Principles Baseline Review. We have heard of a department that is having difficulty in both keeping staff and attracting new staff; a department that is finding it extremely difficult to protect those children who are the most vulnerable in this country; and, of course, a department that has been unable to keep its chief executive, who resigned this week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is important that the Commissioner for Children is able to maintain the important advocacy role he or she has in this country. But I do think that when many people first supported the establishment of a Commissioner for Children, they did not believe that the No. 1 group for which the Commissioner for Children would advocate would end up being children under the care of the State. It is an alarming fact that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services does not know how many kids are in its care today. It is an alarming fact that the department is not aware of whether children in its care are in school or enrolled at a school. We have seen a rapid increase in notifications and in the length of stay of kids in care. Those are the sorts of issues that I am sure the Commissioner for Children will turn her mind to over the next few months of her tenure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt is important to recognise the work done by the Hon Roger McClay in his position as the Commissioner for Children. He was a very tireless worker for children and a very enthusiastic advocate for a wide range of children\u2019s issues. I think Dr Cindy Kiro should be very much welcomed into the role. After her appointment I sourced and read most of the papers she had published. Although I did not agree with some of the content, particularly her blaming the 1990s for everything that has gone wrong with children, I do very much respect the vast amount of work she did before coming to this particular role.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIt seems that this bill is very much a diluted version of that presented by John Wright of the Alliance party. He wanted to make the Commissioner for Children an Officer of Parliament, and that was debated to and fro in the select committee. Interestingly, if one looks at the 1999 Labour Party election policy one sees that it states very clearly that one of its key goals is to make the Commissioner for Children an Officer of Parliament in order to ensure complete independence. Labour has not done that with this bill. It has failed to keep an election promise, which was to make the Commissioner for Children an Officer of Parliament. What it has presented today is very much a diluted version of what the original intention was. It is important, though, that the Commissioner for Children does maintain his or her independence. Some of the provisions in the bill will strengthen that role, although they will not give the commissioner absolute independence, which was the original intention of both the Alliance and the Labour Party before they got into office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EIf members look at what the bill aims to bring, they will see that, yes, there are some provisions for increased consultation with children. That is quite an important step forward. But I do hope there is a realistic approach to that consultation, because sometimes children are unable to judge what is best for them. I shall give one example. If I asked my son what he would like for dinner every night, his first answer would be lollies. Quite clearly, although the views of younger New Zealand citizens are important, we need to take into account the fact that some of them are not able to judge all the time exactly what is best for them. There is also the pressure of decision making. Sometimes I think that, with regard to the Family Court, if we continually ask very young children which parent they want to go with, or to make high-pressured decisions about their lives, that can be to their detriment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe bill also establishes a deputy commissioner, and that is quite an important addition to the Office of the Commissioner for Children. Quite often the commissioner travels overseas. There were occasions when the previous commissioner was not present, and there was nobody able to represent him when he was away. I think having a deputy commissioner is a step forward and provides another option for the office when that situation arises.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOne enhancement in the bill that I very much support is the idea that the commissioner can now present evidence and reports in a tribunal or a court. There have been situations where the commissioner has been hamstrung in his or her advocacy role because he or she has been unable to do that. We can make use of the fact that the commissioner is able to investigate a wide range of very complex children\u2019s issues. Sometimes the information that is gathered, that expertise, is useful in other arenas, and the commissioner should be able to do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EQuite clearly, the role of the Commissioner for Children is to be a very strong advocate for children. One of the ways that the commissioner has been very successful in previous years is that he has been able to pick up individual cases and create a high profile for the various causes that he has tried to publicise. Members should look at the James Whakaruru report. That report was very important and drew the whole country\u2019s attention to the issue of child abuse. It is a shame there has been a delay in receiving further reports from the commissioner\u2019s office. We have been waiting for the Saliel Aplin and Olympia Jetson report since February, when the Commissioner for Children first said he would release it. Once again, the report will be released at a time when the Commissioner for Children has changed, the chief executive has changed, and the Minister in charge of the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services has changed, as well. This gives the opportunity for the Government to deflect attention away from what I am sure will be a very damning report about the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services. Of course, the people left to pick up the pieces and present the views will be able to put up their hands and say they had nothing to do with it. That is a shame. The country has been waiting for some answers in that particular case.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Commissioner for Children is an advocate who should be very much supported by the community. As a result of the good work done by previous commissioners, it is now a role that is very well known throughout New Zealand by the New Zealand public. It is a shame that Labour has diluted its original intention and is now unable to keep its 1999 election promise to make the Commissioner for Children an Officer of Parliament, to ensure his or her complete independence. But, in terms of what has been presented today, the National Party will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022003710fa704246a187e7fa5dfbb8595d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022003710fa704246a187e7fa5dfbb8595d\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to rise in support of this bill. I am amazed at the line from the Opposition spokeswoman, especially as this is way beyond 1999. It is 2003 and Labour is in coalition with United Future, which is delighted with this Commissioner for Children Bill, and has also supported its stand-alone position. The bill also strengthens the role of the Commissioner for Children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003EThere is another very salutary aspect of this bill, and that is the position in terms of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. This bill will explicitly strengthen the powers of the Commissioner for Children to deal with the findings of the United Nations report. It is amazing that the Opposition does not seem to understand that. This bill is a demonstration of this Government\u2019s commitment to the rights of children. It is very poor form to have a slash at the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services, when we are celebrating the second reading of this bill, and when we also have it in conjunction with the recommendations of the baseline review. I am proud to be part of a coalition Government that is pushing through this bill, to heighten the explicit powers of the Commissioner for Children. I am proud to support the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022f80b537f973245e4a367423f78b9afad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f80b537f973245e4a367423f78b9afad\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealand First supports this legislation. As has already been pointed out, this bill has been languishing on the Order Paper for quite some time\u2014since April 2002. It is pleasing that at last we have the opportunity to progress it. We realise that there are very many issues for the commissioner to deal with. New Zealand First has always said that the quality of our future is determined by the quality of the children we leave to our future. That quality is determined primarily by the way we treat our children, and also by the legislative framework around which we deal with them. Judge Becroft reinforced this message at a Littlies Lobby breakfast meeting, which many of us attended. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt is important to pay tribute to the role of the Commissioner for Children. It is the role of the commissioner to be an advocate for our youngest citizens and to ensure that we are all aware of the issues that affect this group, so that changes can be made. The advocacy role is important. The bottom line is that our success as a society depends largely on our capacity to enable each child within New Zealand to meet his or her potential. The recent horrific examples of atrocities committed against children\u2014and unfortunately there are now an increasing number\u2014show that for some children life in New Zealand can be very dangerous, and it can also be a living hell for them. It is for these children, in particular, that the commissioner can speak. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe must pay tribute to the immediate past Commissioner for Children, Roger McClay. He worked tirelessly among us all to ensure that the interests of children and their welfare were promoted amongst us as parliamentarians, and amongst the many agencies that also work within the field. Thank you, Roger McClay. We have appreciated all the work he did in this field, and his endless enthusiasm for ensuring that the rights of New Zealand children and their welfare were always in front of all political parties at all times\u2014something that we do appreciate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe notice that this bill gives the Commissioner for Children additional statutory functions, to better effect and promote in New Zealand the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which we definitely support. New Zealand First believes that this legislation will ensure independence, and allow the Office of the Commissioner for Children more easily to promote the protection of New Zealand children. We hope that this office is adequately resourced to ensure that it can meet all its obligations and its goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E It is really pleasing to see the provision for a Deputy Commissioner for Children. New Zealand First was disappointed that the role of the Commissioner for Children has become a political appointment, rather than an appointment requiring cross-party consultation. The fact that the appointment has a 5-year term, and therefore straddles election cycles, means that cross-party consultation on this matter is vital. It is really important that the Commissioner for Children remains independent. New Zealanders all need to know that the Commissioner for Children has been appointed because he or she is the best person for the job, not because of political connections. Cross-party support for the recent appointment of a new commissioner would have allayed those concerns. We all want to see the best person in the job, and we are looking forward to working with the new commissioner in her role. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EIt is interesting to note that there are many issues concerning children about which there is no political disagreement, and we often see that in this House. Children\u2019s issues often wait far too long for action when there is no disagreement about what is needed. We all agree about what is required and how to go about it. The philosophy behind this bill is very clear: we value our children. The legislation gives the commissioner the mandate to ensure that the rights of New Zealand children are enhanced in the future. New Zealand First definitely supports this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u00224f2cd8dbebee4fb69d48818d47d5a6c0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224f2cd8dbebee4fb69d48818d47d5a6c0\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E When the Minister took the floor to talk about the Commissioner for Children Bill, he said that it is evidence of the Labour Government\u2019s commitment to make life better for children. I remind the Minister that this bill has been sitting on the Order Paper, ready to be debated in Parliament and passed by the House, for the last 18 months. That is 18 long months that the Labour Government has failed to deliver on its so-called commitment to children. It goes further than that. The bill was introduced to the House in its first form as a member\u2019s bill 5 years ago. Labour has been in power for 4 years. It could have fast-tracked this bill through the House 3 years ago. All I can say is that the Minister\u2019s words in saying that the Government has a commitment to children are hollow words, and that if he does not believe that, all he has to do is re-read the baseline review on the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services in order to see what an appalling mess the Labour Government has made of child welfare in this country since it has been in power. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThere is a deepening crisis in child welfare in New Zealand, and I will put on record in this House that the Minister, Steve Maharey, is responsible for it. For most of that time, he was the Minister in charge of that department. He was essentially in charge of child welfare in this country, and he has failed miserably not only the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services but also every family and child that has been through the mill of that department. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI will look at the history of that. We have a Minister who says one thing and does something different. When he was in Opposition, Steve Maharey said that he would improve the lot of children in New Zealand. He was going to rebuild the department that deals with at-risk children in this country, and he was going to develop a new culture. Well, 3\u00BD years on, what do we see? There are more notifications\u2014many of which are being referred to the Commissioner for Children\u2014and a never-ending list of tragedies, which were all referred to the commissioner. We have social workers leaving and the lowest morale in the department that we have ever had. That Minister sat there making all those promises and saying he would make things better, but it all went to pieces and turned to custard around him. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWhat happened? Did he stand there like a man should and take the rap? Did he sit in the House while we called for his resignation? No. He was saved by the Prime Minister, because when the Government found out in May of this year how bad that baseline review would be, all of a sudden, he was stood down and a new Minister was put in his place. The new Minister will not be able to take the rap, because she is brand-new. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI put on record what the new Minister said about Steve Maharey. When she took over, she said: \u201CHe wasn\u2019t able to devote the time needed, which is why he decided to move on.\u201D How irresponsible is it for any Minister in a Government to not devote the time needed to the very agency that looks after the most vulnerable children in this society? How can he sit there, knowing that he did not put in the time to give that department what it needed to be able to do the job and to be able to look after those children who most needed help? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EDuring the years we have seen the Commissioner for Children come out and try to do something about those children. He has put out reports\u2014I think we all remember the report on James Whakaruru, which showed a little boy who had been so many times in places where help could have been given to him, and it all failed and he died. The Minister, who knew and saw all of that in Opposition and promised to do something, failed. Now we have a deepening crisis in child welfare and I would never have thought I would see that when a Labour Government was in power. I find it really worrying that the Minister can stand in this House and pay lip service to thoughts about needing to do better for children in this country, when he holds the responsibility for the failure of that department on his shoulders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESadly, tomorrow, when the department comes in front of the Social Services Committee for the financial review, not only will we not be able to question a Minister who was responsible, because Steve Maharey was the Minister for 10 months of the financial year and Ruth Dyson was there for only the last 2 months so we cannot hold her responsible\u2014we have to hold Mr Maharey responsible\u2014but now we have had the sudden resignation of the chief executive. The day before yesterday she suddenly went off on holiday, so we cannot question her. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003ESo Parliament has a huge problem. Any select committee of Parliament is charged with the responsibility of examining the work of a department of the Government, and tomorrow we have a situation where there is nobody who will say, \u201CYes, I can answer your questions.\u201D That is because this Government is so cunning. It is so cunning that it wanted to avoid all responsibility. It knew what a crisis the department was in, but it wanted to avoid all responsibility, swap portfolios and ministerial responsibility, get rid of the chief executive\u2014hang her out to dry so she was on her own and so she leaves\u2014and nobody is held accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI say that Labour is responsible. This Government is responsible for the problem we have in this country. What really worries me is that if Roger McClay were still the Commissioner for Children, he would have something to say about this. One thing about the previous commissioner is that he was not afraid to put his neck on the block and say what he believed. Will the new Commissioner for Children have something deep and meaningful to say about what the Labour Government has done in this area? I think the answer is \u201Cnot likely\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThat is the problem when we have a Government that appoints to key positions in a Parliament and does not put in people who the whole of Parliament agrees have the courage to make the sorts of statements that New Zealanders want to hear, but puts its cronies into its jobs because then it will know it will get reports and statements it can live with. That is wrong, and that is one of the reasons our party does not support this bill. If we had a totally independent Commissioner for Children, we might have relitigated it and looked to agree that the commisioner\u2019s office would have the courage to say the right thing, not what its political masters want it to say. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe other point I would like to make here is that the bill gives more power to the Commissioner for Children to introduce the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Although I think everybody would agree with many of those rights of the child, I believe that this is part of Labour\u2019s back-door conspiracy, if one likes, to introduce anti-smacking legislation. They will get the Office of the Commissioner for Children to look into it, because that is one of the provisions of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and, lo and behold, all of a sudden there will be recommendations coming out of that office to stop New Zealand parents from being allowed to smack their children. We are talking about smacking children, not about child abuse. There is a complete distinction between those two things. Soon we will see the Labour Government intruding into the homes of every single New Zealander, just as it has already intruded into so many walks of life since it has been in power. There are new laws, regulations, costs, and inspectors, and all of a sudden we will find that inspectors will come to our homes to see what is happening inside the family door. I finish by saying how disappointed I am in Labour for its record in child welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u00228c518cb0c5564f86a257864b6bfb6d4a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228c518cb0c5564f86a257864b6bfb6d4a\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to stand in support of the bill, and proud of the Government\u2019s record of support for New Zealand families and children. This commission for the family will be a further step in providing support for the families of our country. We have just heard a contribution from the ACT speaker, who, in a curious contradiction, said that the Minister and the Government were not doing enough, and, the next minute, finished off her speech by saying that they are doing too much and are interfering in the lives of New Zealanders. Once again, it was a confused and muddled message from the ACT party. This legislation is about improving the quality of life for New Zealand families. How could one not support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022462b8e74d4fa4d14b77dddfe578798d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022462b8e74d4fa4d14b77dddfe578798d0\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E That was an interesting speech from Chris Carter about the Families Commission. Unfortunately for the Minister, this is the Commissioner for Children Bill, but let us not devalue his contribution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThis bill is finally back in the House. I say to Mr Maharey that I think he has been an absolute and total failure, in that he brought in a piece of legislation on 10 October 2001\u2014over 2 years ago. The select committee heard 13 submissions, sat for 2 hours, and reported back to the House, and it has taken Mr Maharey 2 years to get this bill back before Parliament. It came back only when he was relieved of responsibility for the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EMr Maharey has failed children in this country, and he knows it. It is a tragedy that Jackie Pivac is wearing all the responsibility for the dysfunctional department that let Coral Burrows slip through the net. The Minister sits there, puffed up in his own importance, having taken 2 years to do this, and he is not responsible for anything. He is laughing. He is not responsible. His chief executive resigned, and Mr Maharey is not taking any responsibility at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI do not know how Mr Maharey, as a Minister, can sleep at night, knowing what has gone on in that department for the last 2 years. He may find it funny, but he failed the young children of this country. He failed some individual children in this country. Mr Maharey may think it is funny, but those families do not. [Interruption] Mr Maharey\u2019s interjection was that more children died before he was the Minister. I say to the Minister to get real.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003110514183a10399a4a838d26bfa8bef464e0000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cbr\u003E\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"