"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022527516177f74454bbd87ab140be14e44\u0022\u003EThursday, 4 December 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228e1e3cc419b448aba66d79203a4f95c3\u0022\u003EThursday, 4 December 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229415825d0c5c49e0ad01c943b5b90993\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002278b327f910ac499ebe1b3f46eca64dcf\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002277fcbf1da6a04b9f96e1162f212a27c7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002277fcbf1da6a04b9f96e1162f212a27c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next week in the House priority will be given to the completion of the passage of the Holidays Bill and the Families Commission Bill. There will be the first readings of a number of bills, including the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill; the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3); the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill; the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill, and other first readings on the Order Paper.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00224566d3f901a04ad5abe5d952f0c67208\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224566d3f901a04ad5abe5d952f0c67208\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Knowing that there are a number of bills on the Order Paper that date back to 2001, and in one case even 1996, I ask whether there is any prospect that the Government might take urgency between now and the lifting of the House for the Christmas break, in order to get some of these pressing matters dealt with.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022b48c2210df024857ab1058f22b001997\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b48c2210df024857ab1058f22b001997\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E If the bills have been on the Order Paper since 1996, they will probably wait a while longer without urgency.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ff51cf803c834f3d8c4116dbc221db63\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002291c7acdcc3ee4bd5b053fe8d12bb7595\u0022\u003EUrgent Question to Minister of Police\u2014Shane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00222812fe24939e491b94e9a930e07e0a47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222812fe24939e491b94e9a930e07e0a47\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave of the House to ask an urgent question of the Minister of Police now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257dc1a67b9004ee896c73d0f9cf868b7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member indicating the subject?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e396d6de42b47cf8eda4b65e7fdd513\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and thank you for the opportunity to elucidate the content of the question. Quite clearly it would be a question about the extraordinary expense the police have gone to in pursuing the frivolous prosecution against Shane Ardern\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ca184a83dd1403aa271a72f8cd86d2c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I did give the member an opportunity. Is there any objection to that course being followed? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022fccf1ededd5240eda5cc7b44bdb3fb45\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fccf1ededd5240eda5cc7b44bdb3fb45\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the unusual circumstances surrounding this case, the obviously considerable amount of taxpayer money that has gone into it, the allegations that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6414ca69114455ca89589fb2077b452\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: What is the point of order?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ee3f3683694130a806dbd919c128e0\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE\u003C/span\u003E: The point of order is simply whether we can expect a ministerial statement so that the Minister can explain himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac936c10b7b243b684551a10e7a39aa4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is up to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u00221c145b0ebf914064ac4bba4e8a3942cb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221c145b0ebf914064ac4bba4e8a3942cb\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E Given that the Government is showing no signs that it wants to discuss this matter further, clearly it would want Parliament to be able to have a say on a matter like this. Therefore, I seek leave for there to be a debate immediately upon the end of question time to discuss this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d53a4435443c4c4590b8d2de75288a1b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022 data-id=\u00226d9f1df15413411b8a65701c6916780b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225192f6d3-dca6-43c8-a55e-381e1d7c1225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d9f1df15413411b8a65701c6916780b\u0022\u003EHon MURRAY McCULLY (National\u2014East Coast Bays):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think you will recall that a matter of privilege was raised with you some time ago in relation to the matter that Mr Brownlee has just raised with the House. You made a ruling that relied on the fact that a prosecution was in the offing to turn the matter down. In the light of these new circumstances, I ask whether you will now revisit the matter that was earlier put before you.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b958cd3cd34888ad14bc7afdbaa8a2\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I dismissed the complaint at that time, and that is the end of the matter. If any other letters are on their way, that is then up to the members concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022834d2a3e463348209828c2bfad889669\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d130689168fe436ead2820203027b5a5\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229a85889a8f2c43c3b76ca879d1440be3\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Anti-virus Software\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e07ad5047cc4ca58858444e3b315a60\u0022\u003E1. DAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps have been taken to ensure that schools have ready access to reliable anti-virus software?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226092dc03abaf4c18a67e6b9124f52992\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226092dc03abaf4c18a67e6b9124f52992\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Free anti-virus software for State and State-integrated schools will be available from the beginning of next year. A large number of schools currently do not have quality anti-virus software, leaving them exposed to virus attacks. Through the provision of a common, high-quality anti-virus software package, at no cost to the schools, the Government is protecting the investment schools are making.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b8ca0f5bda7746eea33f830d36986cdc\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: How does this initiative fit within the Government\u2019s wider strategy for promoting the use of information and communication technology in schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271907f781b1d4b0aa9dffbea658f2e47\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: As Maurice Williamson often tells me, ensuring our children develop good information and communication technology skills is an essential part of equipping them for life and work in the 21st century. I am looking forward to Maurice Williamson getting back on that front bench.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265c3962826f440a2b7868ee97a5cf6bf\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware that most viruses are designed to attack the hegemonic proprietary software platform Microsoft, while non-proprietary operating platforms, such as SuSE Linux, now meet international security certification, and how will he protect the ability of schools to choose open-source alternatives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227a95c7242af47f580abe7baea870027\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Quite a few schools use open-source software. That is their right, and if they want to do that, that is fine. I am not aware of the technical details, but my understanding is that a lot of the software will support Linux as well as Microsoft.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249d5128e61fd4614ae36ff06b384fab4\u0022\u003EChild Support\u2014Liable-parent Debt Write-offs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c227c1a9793c4e78a508791a17248315\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Revenue: What message does the Government\u2019s announcement that it will wipe part of the child support debt owed by errant parents on a \u201Cdollar for dollar\u201D basis send to struggling solo mothers and their kids who rely on child support payments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022 data-id=\u0022c392f2f5663243e4aabff8bcc47db59d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c392f2f5663243e4aabff8bcc47db59d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE (Associate Minister of Revenue):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has made no such announcement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221664adb67f274c67a3c7daf604998d07\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: In that case, with regard to comments that the Minister made to the Christchurch Press, how does he explain his comment that the bill proposed for next year will \u201Cincrease flexibility, and parents will be able to write off back debt on a dollar for dollar basis.\u201D? Certainly, every individual would think that their life would be more flexible if they were able to forget about their debts.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d2f251c9793e43cf8a653252b2989782\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has been canvassing a range of options to encourage parents to pay off child support debts. I will be progressing legislation next year that helps to reduce penalties on an ongoing basis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d2aa3cc98554d6eb37f77d031cf2a05\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: When was the current penalties regime put in place, and is it working?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253ef7be8211f46aa959330e3e4456e26\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: It was put in place by the National Government in 1992. The growth in debt has demonstrated that it is not working as well as it could be. That is why we are looking at making some changes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a66fe70826254855a1643dfd60792cd1\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: How does the Minster reconcile his statement that \u201CNew Zealand actually has one of the best-performing child support systems in the world\u201D with the dreadful anomalies in our present system, which can have a father of 10 children paying a total of $12 a week for all those children, while a father of two pays almost $20,000 a year, in spite of having his children for 40 percent of the time; and will he now consider a comprehensive review of the whole system along the lines of that proposed by Judge Trapski almost a decade ago?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7c066ebd9d94afcadb095572aca7ee5\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: I believe that in general the child support system is working well. The penalties regime, which is a part of it, is arguably not, and that is why we are looking at reforming it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002273e2ef725f034216a8a47c996e48ab73\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: What message does the Government send to New Zealanders when, on the one hand, it announces that it will wipe child support debt owed by non-custodial parents, and when, on the other hand, Steve Maharey says \u201CEvery father has a responsibility to be emotionally, practically, and financially engaged with his parenting responsibilities.\u201D? Which one is it to be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222d0931c6afd04db783fbeaabbd37260d\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Non-custodial parents, who are in general, but not always, fathers, do have a very important responsibility both to their children and their broader families. The Government upholds that. We are trying to make the system of collecting that debt more effective.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220d6c517729f4b9b8bed7118121f38e6\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I wonder whether the Minister could help the ordinary people of this country out by telling us why, if someone is not penalised for not paying his or her debts, that person would bother to pay them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221494094c1651461f8204161da37167bc\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, because parents should love their children, and their children need them. Secondly, because this Government is not, and has never said it will be, wiping off all penalties\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229adccbaedda74dd6851b5b9d73d0bbb0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. A voice came from over there, best resembling a dog with a cleft palate, but I think it was Mr Mallard making some allegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228b311b16ad714808b49a49566c00d1af\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I just want to say that such comments as were made were out of order. I prefer not to have them recorded in Hansard, but now they will be, unfortunately. But since the matter has been raised, the member will stand, withdraw, and apologise for that allegation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220053b71ea96c4c23b7fd7ea15ffc49f8\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can I ask you now to elucidate somewhat on what was out of order in my comments\u2014a matter of fact was recorded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ab33192f1d14e71bf003b4df705b039\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, but it was in the second person for a start, and that is out of order above anything else.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c0e1dda76ab4a93974e9872599022e9\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Why did the Minister talk about this proposal to wipe big chunks of debt yesterday\u20143 weeks before Christmas\u2014when the first thing an irresponsible parent will do is stop paying child support, because he knows that the Government will next year wipe out a large proportion of his debt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236dd85668e4f4baea23e3dbf9c7bcab1\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: In the first place, not all irresponsible parents are he\u2019s. In the second place, there are many reasons to continue paying one\u2019s child support, including the continued existence of penalties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022739d8273f472468195c68ffa4356c29d\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Government\u2019s announcement that it is wiping child support debt generate any sense of responsibility for the men of this country, or is this a twisted campaign to allow them to fertilise, flee, and forget?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de45ac84e9244f4685522086816f2a4b\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Members of other parties simply cannot have it both ways. One cannot argue on the one hand that we need to do more to recover debt, and then criticise when we do so\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ace637a60f24e07bd273c8ca2fc8459\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Order! That is the only warning Mr Hide gets today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002258c8fccd0330457ca676ec3199173059\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to his last statement, how does the Minister explain to mothers, like Christine Hall of Dunedin, who have been battling for years to get their ex-husbands to pay child support debts, that his big idea to reduce debt is to forget about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227021306638fb48df96f5b44871fd89e4\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: Without dealing with taxpayer-specific matters, can I say this: the Government is determined to make it both better and easier for people to pay their child support payments. The presence of large penalties can act as a blockage to non-custodial parents re-entering the payment system. It is that blockage that we are seeking to remove.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002208f3a9ed0e9241d488611a2fd6d8fdfa\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the Government\u2019s announcement that it will wipe child support debt for non-custodial parents who will not pay for their children\u2019s upbringing, will he also help to wipe the personal debt incurred by parents who are trying to pay for their children\u2019s upbringing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e0192ed9-5715-4f6c-bd52-8db4f3466087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f81832bb31f54df1a15c7f4164ebf381\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CUNLIFFE\u003C/span\u003E: The presumption of the question is wrong. May I repeat that the Government is not proposing to wipe all debt for people who owe child support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022026efc7bce7545ba93eeebdf5599e023\u0022\u003ESmoke-free Environments Amendment Bill\u2014Compliance Costs\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a192e0f91ea4b489c5e11077e0c7674\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister of Health: Has he been advised of any compliance cost implications from the passage of the Smoke-free Environments Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u002269c2f4a3b10b4050b6a86ce469bc3591\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002269c2f4a3b10b4050b6a86ce469bc3591\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health),\u003C/span\u003E on behalf of the Associate Minister of Health: Yes, he has. However the compulsory costs have been kept to a minimum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245e698a1c23e46138bdb8cef1d81f786\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: In view of the provisions of the Act that require, in just 27 days, the outdoor entrance of every school classroom and building in New Zealand to be labelled as a no-smoking area, firstly has the Minister advised schools of their need to comply within that length of time, and, secondly, will her ministry be making an appropriation to cover the costs, or is it something schools are expected to cover, out of their operating grants at the moment, to the detriment of the children they are supposed to be educating?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d03aa82cb724443d9324f213c27966cb\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There will be a nominal cost to schools to provide external signs at all entrances. The Ministry of Health is working with the Ministry of Education to keep this cost to a minimum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee716528367740e499d93c1b5eeaeca2\u0022\u003ERussell Fairbrother\u003C/span\u003E: What is the annual estimated cost of treating diseases associated with smoking in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d7212992cc34b77902894ae13d92d56\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There is a considerable cost to New Zealanders from the impact of smoking. For example, the health costs alone, including hospital costs, are estimated in 1992 dollars at $202 million a year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d25bc443f9014ac1b25161ea077025e0\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: How many Ministry of Health officials will be employed to police the smoke-free environments legislation, and will the Minister assure the House that this number of staff will be able to cover adequately the whole of New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3add0af2a9b4a3683297d9162580027\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: There are no plans to increase the number of smoke-free officers or health protection officers who currently exist. There are now 17 dedicated smoke-free officers in New Zealand, and their job is to oversee the current legislation. There are 117 health protection officers in relation to food issues, toxic substances, and so on. There is no intention or plan to increase the number of them at this stage. We want to give this law a chance\u2014to see how it goes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022116a60666ba747e6af034e4bd135c699\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What is the total revenue take for the Government from taxes on cigarettes and tobacco, and is it not 3\u00BD times higher than the figure the Minister has just given us for the costs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022960e7ce1edd24513983a121690c4b79f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I do not have with me the exact number of dollars from cigarette revenue, but I gave the member the cost to the health sector only. The only research we have in New Zealand to show the cost was done by Brian Easton in 1997, and it showed a cost of $22 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcfb9a229bcd4496835eb15ab48b9fb3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think we are entitled to raise by way of point of order the question as to what the Minister meant when she said $22 billion. Did she mean the whole world?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2d82d2c0d5a43b7ba97bb7dd335840a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is the Minister\u2019s answer, and she is entitled to give it. It was a specific answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a0902f8d1094c82911def15c99d9ead\u0022\u003EHeather Roy\u003C/span\u003E: Did the Associate Minister give any regard to the Ministry of Health\u2019s proposal last year, in the 5-year plan for tobacco control in New Zealand, for its \u201Ccost-saving strategy for the health sector\u201D to transfer the enforcement of smoking laws to the police; and how does he square that proposal to require the police to enforce these laws, with the Government\u2019s claim that anti-smoking laws are about social change and not policing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b6151fc56e149a9a6549e3817ee334f\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously, the Government did not consider giving this matter to the police. No provision was made for that, and it is not likely to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002262476ea52c20405ea0e876c802fd62a8\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What assurance can the Minister give the House that every school in New Zealand will meet the requirement of the Act to have every outdoor entrance labelled as a non-smoking area by 1 January 2004, in view of the fact that the Act was passed only last night, and may not yet have received the royal assent, and that most schools are closing for the holidays in the next couple of weeks\u2014or is this provision just some new employment programme for the summer, to get people out there painting the signs?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299b4ed6649534e8c8a52a630aeb29dac\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member is assuming that there will be some gold-plated sign applied to the building. I think we will find that schools have enough time between now and when they return at the end of January to put in place a sign stating that they are non-smoking areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00228c5d2d143c23493e97a55c32d8072c51\u0022\u003ESchools\u2014Closures\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3a1891d35074ed2a3013170fe8f43dc\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: Is he on track for closing about 300 schools as reported in the Sunday Star-Times on 2 November 2003, and how many have been closed this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022c9c144a84ddb4b959b0dadc30b95473e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c9c144a84ddb4b959b0dadc30b95473e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E The figure of 300 is an estimate of the total number over the next decade to 15 years, based on a drop of 76,000 students over the same period. There is no predetermined number of school closures. Fourteen have been closed this year\u2014none as a result of reviews\u2014and eight will be opened next year or the year after.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c00d77afed054fb386bbc95582514534\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Why is his ministry sending out letters to principals telling them not to involve pupils in their opposition to school closures, when some pupils are old enough to vote, are required to be on boards of trustees, and are affected by the closures too, or does he think that pupils should not have an opinion about the closing of their schools?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d339232911564f74bacb1b83103dcb4d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I respect the psychologist involved in sending out the letter. I think that, from a psychologist\u2019s point of view, it was quite good advice, and it should be looked at. But I think it would have been better if the ministry had not sent it, because it has inflamed the situation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299db060bbf5a486f8608aaa40ea59db7\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Government engaged in the process of school network reviews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022914e53e5c0f348f6b5669b585a23ed3f\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: As I indicated before, the population drop over the next decade to 15 years of people of school age will be about 76,000. It is slightly unfortunate that that is happening quite unevenly around the country. We are building new schools in north-west Auckland and south-east Auckland, where there are likely to be 40,000 extra people over the next 8 or 9 years. It is important that we have a real matching of where the students are and where the schools are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022201268764db949e3805c626f8bdb3c58\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Holy Trinity model of shared governance and professional leadership, which is currently being proposed for a group of Catholic integrated schools\u2014in line with New Zealand First policy, I might say\u2014being promoted as a possible alternative for State school reorganisation through the network reviews?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201a781306e524c94ada1c5384f3a715b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is, including by National Party MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227db02396c0fc4ea788892714c7032d42\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of an email to a South Canterbury mother from Michael Deaker, one of the ministry facilitators, that states: \u201CThe requirement that schools resulting from this review be sustainable over 10 to 15 years and include viable professional communities of teachers ... we have set a roll figure of around 160 as the minimum for country primary schools.\u201D; if so, has he told Michael Deaker what he has told this House\u2014that there is no minimum roll figure for rural schools, and that Mr Deaker should be careful to give factual and accurate information to communities whose schools are under threat of closure?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9844ca4ab8e4f939e1b275713df087d\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and, indirectly, yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dc2c5080e60465b837ff1ee222d1bb7\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Does he have a response to the 35-page report commissioned by the Timaru District Council that challenges not only the flawed network-review consultation process but also its lack of economic and social impact assessment and the faulty use of population projections?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d18bd3468bc4435fbadf8c8ce5a75f20\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: In discussing it with the council, I have suggested that the fundamental problem is that we have more schools than the number of pupils justify, and nobody wants his or her school to close. Education is about children, not buildings. Half-empty schools are in nobody\u2019s best interests. I was quoting Nick Smith.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283e2c86ba47047cc90172550b50210e0\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: As Minister of Education, what does he think is so wrong with the schools that he is closing, when the parents are in favour of them, the community supports them financially and physically, and the Education Review Office has given many of them glowing reports; can he tell the House why he thinks he knows better? [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d148729128c84d38a09c9088b428c0a1\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure of the relevance of the GST comment, but the important point that has to be made is that we have to make some choices. I accept it is the ACT point of view that schools should be allowed to drift to closure. As I have indicated, 14 have done that so far this year, not as part of a review. It is my view that we have to look to having a sustainable network. We have to have schools in the right places. We have some very strong boards of trustees and principals in charge of schools of 13 or 14 pupils, when 5 minutes down the road there is another school that is struggling. If we could put the strengths together, I think we would guarantee quality education in a way that that member knows is not being delivered in some schools now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7bfb2395a2440ac9a82ca75fbc269f6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. There are a couple of things I want to call to your attention. Firstly, at the end of the last question a comment was made to the Minister by the junior Government whip to which he responded at the start of his answer, and, clearly, there was meant to be some barb inside that comment directed towards the questioner. That was inappropriate. It should have been picked up on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003ESecondly, in the previous question he was asked whether he would give a response to the Timaru District Council. He chose instead to read a very good quote, in the circumstances, from the Hon Nick Smith, but failed to give his own ideas on that matter. That cannot be considered as addressing the question\u2014if one just says that someone else said this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThere is another matter that I would ask you to consider in the case of this Minister. Throughout his responses there are these little chips and comments, which, quite frankly, will lead to considerable disorder, if they are not heard by you and if he is not required to apologise for his appalling performance. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f52049a06ab49f2aaf69e825006a7ad\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Three points were raised, but the second one has no relevance at all. If a Minister quotes another member and agrees with the member, I cannot see what on earth is wrong with that. The first and third points are relevant and were accurately made. I am just warning the junior Government whip to keep quiet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022887e90dcf38d4a6da1bcbb2dbae31d0c\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister try again to reply to the last question put by Deborah Coddington asking why is he opposed to small schools that the parents are in favour of, the pupils like, and the academic results of which are excellent; and is he now saying that the only reason he is closing them is that adjacent big schools are failing, and that somehow closing the successful small schools will help?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223131b8cf365e4860af3070f334765daa\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c979d246a429476c85010cd6fbefcfb1\u0022\u003EDefence Forces\u2014Deployment Off Shore\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bff11aa519f545fea3acfce8dfcd5b36\u0022\u003EDARREN HUGHES (Labour\u2014Otaki)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Defence: Has he received any recent updates on current New Zealand Defence Force deployments off shore?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u002236d0995a906449a2830998fae59998d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002236d0995a906449a2830998fae59998d9\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. I can tell members that we currently have 480 defence personnel deployed in 17 missions in 12 countries. Major deployments include 17 personnel in Timor-Leste contributing to UN missions, 126 with the intervention force in the Solomon Islands, and 296 personnel in the Middle East, including Afghanistan and Iraq.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227794efdbc91e4a3db6c9be5df61d5f9e\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: Given the multilateral nature of these deployments, has he received any reports on their effectiveness from the other countries we are working with?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277c6fb0f888d486ab9aec198be05ae47\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. During my recent visit to the United Kingdom the Ministers and defence chiefs whom I met with made it clear to me that we should be proud of the high regard in which our defence personnel are held by their international peers. The high standards of training and the approach to operations are valued and respected by the defence personnel they work alongside.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e583dd9b4d744c488b0fb7f069040b25\u0022\u003ETauranga Surgeon\u2014Patient Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f35504ef104f4b228c8ab92464f8d4cf\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: How does she explain Mr Ian Breeze performing surgery on Mr Barry Baker at Norfolk hospital on 6 December 2000, and operating on Mr Baker again at Tauranga Hospital on 10 and 14 December 2000, given that in her answer to question No. 3 yesterday she stated that restrictions were placed on Mr Breeze on 29 August 2000?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022eb415407e63c473aa238f7506dc7fdba\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eb415407e63c473aa238f7506dc7fdba\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E The answer I gave yesterday was correct. Restrictions had been placed on Mr Breeze\u2019s ability to carry out colorectal surgery in Tauranga public hospital on 29 August 2000. I am advised by the Bay of Plenty District Health Board that the surgery carried out on Mr Baker on 10 and 14 December 2000 was not colorectal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227f6c654779394230b4b58aad1dfedb90\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Given that, according to the Bay of Plenty District Health Board Chief Executive Officer, Ron Dunham, fellow surgeons whistle-blew on Mr Breeze, accusing him of incompetence, why was the Bay of Plenty District Health Board unable to take action until the Health and Disability Commissioner stepped in; why did it not get the college to competency-review him earlier, and why did it not get the Medical Council involved?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227fe71186f3d14e56a6845428db656639\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that Mr Breeze had had an audit earlier. The member got it wrong this morning when she said it was done by Mr John Simpson\u2014it was done by another person in 1995. It was the district health board that put on the restrictions. I say to the member that she ought to ask the Medical Council. After all, she was one who strongly supported self-regulation by doctors over their own profession. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f49a110d4855429f9b94eb21cc06982b\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Why was the Bay of Plenty District Health Board unable to stop Mr Breeze practising surgery, when Southern Cross\u2019s investigation committee was able to conduct an inquiry into his practice in 2000, and immediately banned him from practising in its hospitals?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222574d6fdf7da40f597e74c586dd1ce5b\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The district health board stopped him from operating on colorectal cancer in August 2000. It continued to put restriction on his practice. However, the competency of health professionals is decided by their own organisation, the Medical Council. That organisation self-regulates the health professions\u2014something that that member strongly supported.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d5f0132b23a4516bc6cf39365af3b14\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Why did it have to be Shirley Crowley who took a complaint, and I quote: \u201CI was advised to take a complaint. I was told it was not correct. I was told this in intensive care, and I was told by other medical people, namely at Southern Cross Hospital, because they did their own investigation, and the investigator there said: \u2018You have to take this further.\u2019 I said: \u2018I don\u2019t really feel that I\u2019m the right person to do that.\u2019, and he said \u2018Yes, you are\u2019. He said: \u2018Somebody has to do it and it\u2019s got to be you.\u2019 \u201D Why did it have to be Shirley Crowley; why did the system not ensure patient safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227df1b2bc7d834d39a4436283341d080d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member makes a very good point about the system. The member will recall that prior to the passage of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act, complaints could be reported to a number of agencies: the Medical Council, the Accident Compensation Corporation, etc. I explained this to the member yesterday. Fortunately, we changed that. There is only one place to complain to now, and that is the Health and Disability Commissioner. That came out of the inquiry we had about Dr Graham Parry. It probably could have been fixed years ago. Fortunately, this Government has done it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EQuestion time interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002213aa409c0dd74332a9c4ae4696effd90\u0022\u003ETabling of Documents\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022113166ed60e74c49bfe78662ac59ff6c\u0022\u003EPamphlet\u2014Whose Country Is It?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228142e9602fbd4d3582e98c8ecae6bdec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228142e9602fbd4d3582e98c8ecae6bdec\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table the details of the Labour Party\u2019s latest propaganda campaign on talkback and radio shows, and in the newspapers, put out by Ann Hartley, with respect to the very worthy pamphlet Whose Country Is It?.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EQuestion time resumed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002237358f5d361d4ce790abed2b33a06073\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f51c13f59b1a40718c9d8c5a7e2b2095\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c46a641952a4462ba47a6bdb2c9b296\u0022\u003ETourism\u2014Conservation Land Protection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022683cb7f1d8ff4afaa9241d1d9df44d79\u0022\u003E7. DAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Conservation: What progress has been made in providing environmentally sensitive tourism opportunities on conservation lands?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022 data-id=\u002295e84dd6dc4a4e96b53c28a00db6832e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295e84dd6dc4a4e96b53c28a00db6832e\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation):\u003C/span\u003E Just last week I was privileged to open a coastal walkway at Milford Sound. It provides a new opportunity for the 450,000 tourists who visit Milford Sound annually. This is an excellent example of how the tourism industry can work with my department to provide benefits for both conservation and the economy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7a2d1028547400d95e298bf729b09ae\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: What role did the tourism industry play in the development of this walkway?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275f13380523548b6b67e4ed2878d67f9\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: The tourism industry, through the Milford Sound Development Authority, helped to identify the need for land-based attractions at Milford Sound. It also helped to plan the walkway, and provided approximately half the funding required to build it. It worked in partnership with the Department of Conservation, the Ministry of Tourism, and Ng\u0101i Tahu.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221c818ce2-6ca3-4c4a-9e6a-2e3a67d070e1\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0b7fd8650a54d238cdcc6802fd34df4\u0022\u003EShane Ardern\u003C/span\u003E: In the light of the Minister\u2019s answer to the primary question, can he inform the House whether Department of Conservation staff chopping up rimu on Stewart Island, or clear-felling timber in other parts of New Zealand, is that new, environmentally sensitive approach?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9ed755430014deab5c7a933ef30c732\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: As far as Stewart Island is concerned, my department has already apologised to the landowner concerned. People make mistakes. But I can say that the Department of Conservation engages very positively with organisations and individuals throughout New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fcd222c3-03a3-4568-a8aa-b6e8c6ef37c5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f1bdf08d69d4f6f99379166ad912026\u0022\u003EMike Ward\u003C/span\u003E: How is the privatisation of 35 kilometres of land adjacent to Lake Wanaka consistent with both the provision of environmentally sensitive tourism opportunities on conservation land and the Government\u2019s review of public access?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a74b6b4a64d43c2b147a4887e52eb96\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I am not responsible for final decisions on tenure review. The tenure review proposals for that property are currently undergoing public consultation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002220af0115d4194e98929030839fc92b6e\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: In recognition of the importance of tourism in Milford, does the Minister support the proposal, which will have a low environmental impact and is culturally sensitive and energy efficient, of Ng\u0101i Tahu and Skyline Enterprises to build a gondola system through the Greenstone Valley, linking Glenorchy with Milford and thereby saving the 12-hour day-trip from Queenstown to Milford?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d4506109-be18-4b9d-9a79-1e15e2e2cd41\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaa554fa4d0d46bfac577989464dadfd\u0022\u003EHon CHRIS CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Applications for tourism developments on the conservation estate go through a rigorous statutory process that includes an assessment of the environmental effects and public consultation. All cases rest on their merits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d48b1ccbdc884a5eb93c8b8cf83147cf\u0022\u003EGovernment Revenue\u2014Roads\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aabde983ceef40efb85393a4f2256f1c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What is the total amount collected annually by central government from all taxes, duties, licence fees, and levies for the purposes of road construction, maintenance, and road safety?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022336b1f7729b34dcabb1bb9cf3ac1415e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022336b1f7729b34dcabb1bb9cf3ac1415e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E I am advised that the total in the categories referred to is $1,481 million, GST exclusive, for the year ended 30 June. There were $58 million of GST-inclusive refunds.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fdb7e72879c43978765af6366232b81\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: How is it that the Minister gave me an answer in the House 4 weeks ago in which he agreed that the real figure was $2,223 million, not the figure he has just given?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d82ad7c988c64f29807187520bb4de8c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The question the member asked on this occasion was for the purpose of road construction, maintenance, and road safety. The number I have been given at this point for our total revenue is $1,481 million, GST exclusive.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d19ed03698ce4306acfe6397804e5e78\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Government\u2019s intention to release its Auckland roading solutions on 12 December, is the Government intending to sanction a further fuel-tax increase either regionally or nationally; if it is, what is the logic behind that decision, given the surpluses the Government currently enjoys?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c0ca7db7a7f4433b10c56feeea33f6b\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Funding for Auckland\u2019s transport strategy will require a commitment to funding it over at least a 10-year period, and probably longer. Perhaps at some time during that period there might be a National-led Government and, therefore, a great improbability of surpluses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e19cc14025419885ed9a60f5c38314\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know the Minister was thinking up his one-liner about a National Government, but I wonder whether he could answer the question, which was not about the 10-year funding period but about whether the Government intends, on 12 December, to raise fuel taxes above their current level in order to fix Auckland\u2019s roads. That was the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a41713509e4908bde242cd03c45bc5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The question was why that would be considered in the light of current surpluses, and the answer is that we are committed to a long-term funding programme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223ee5e8007685453ca6b045cf6ca0dc2d\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Minister again whether he will admit to the fact that this Government collected $2,223 million\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002284df8565161c4734ac4a002a30d4e359\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: From motorists.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d646c97625b45d285c4fe5a9d66a024\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, from motorists\u2014for the ostensible purpose, originally given in all those cases, of building roads and for road maintenance and road safety; if that is the case, what on earth is he doing seeking to justify a petrol-tax rise of 5c per litre to fund a $400 million expenditure to fix Auckland\u2019s traffic congestion problems, as reported in the Dominion Post on Thursday, December 4, when he is currently sitting on an operating surplus of $1.96 billion and an operating balance excluding revaluations and accounting changes surplus of $5.58 billion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022543616a3a6a84dc99a8ef1a3ed93ac0a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, we are not sitting on a surplus of $5.58 billion. That was the surplus last year, and, surprisingly enough, we do not leave it sitting in my private piggy bank, doing nothing with it in the meantime. The actual cash surplus was used to pay off debt last year. That money has gone. Secondly, as I have explained to the member on many occasions, the cost of capital associated with roading is not currently covered out of excise duties, whereas on rail, for example, the cost of capital is covered by the current operators. Thirdly, there are many other costs associated with roading that are not included in matters such as road construction, road maintenance, and road safety. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d305d58365a646b9b48335db21cae8bd\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that if the Government decides to reduce the fuel-tax diversion\u2014as indicated by his answer to my question yesterday\u2014by even as much as 2.2c per litre, it would be a greater reduction than that accomplished by Winston Peters when he was Treasurer and Deputy Prime Minister in 1998?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eea3899310174b2fa45c49d98d4b911c\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I can confirm that, and by sheer chance, having looked up the member\u2019s maiden speech, I have found that the largest grab ever in New Zealand\u2019s history for the consolidated account occurred in Sir Robert Muldoon\u2019s first mini-Budget, when he diverted the entire revenue from motor vehicles into the consolidated account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6b6b3a85af342b299a8429605fdaca0\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table the 1998 Budget, which sets out very clearly that for the first time in decades, a Minister of Finance or Treasurer in this country sought to redress that anomaly. Had we remained in Government for 10 years, there would have been a dramatic change and difference in the infrastructural investment on roads in this country. Mr Baldock should get his facts right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d38690da4fd44549b11accbfee5d5b77\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226532aeab9bd64d758005f915171a35a7\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would not want to accuse the Minister of Finance of misleading the House, but in terms of 1998 dollars, 2.2c per litre is far less than 2.1c\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218e17a899f2346ff93be6ef169477d86\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, no. The member may choose to use that as a debating point; it is not a point of order. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c66f59c9c9c4f35b545fc911095922f\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: But he is giving the wrong information\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022acb1d5dd99e34fae8de03da0771080bb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Please be seated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f3a975c136d449497db4bb7671cb942\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister explain why $2,223 million in revenue was collected from all sources for the purposes I have outlined in respect of road construction, maintenance, and safety in the last financial year, when only $1.4 billion made it into the National Roads Fund; and can he tell us why, when there is an $823 million shortfall that is not being used for the purpose of road construction in Auckland, he is just passing the buck again to motorists?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226869dc6e46524c8ba6761ef7d0aa2b1d\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, there are issues relating to the cost of capital for the roading system, and there are environmental and other costs associated with roading. The present excise duty does not cover the full cost of the roading system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d08839c2225845e788e23ec4a21ff356\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: When will the Minister produce the economic report that will justify diverting 18.5c per litre of petrol into the Crown account, which he has promised for a long time: before the 12 December package is announced, or afterwards so that the motorist is conned again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265598ffdcf594356bddf685fdfbffa0e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am advised\u2014it is not my responsibility\u2014that such a report in relation to costs will be produced next year. Auckland is demanding much faster answers than that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ffa027019b54701890756139a595c38\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that answer, is it not true that the best part of $1 million has been spent already on this report, and does the Minister think it is satisfactory that we are waiting months for such an overdue report, which will come out after the Government has introduced the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea3fe74e1c3841649701b3bc5a6bd095\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm that figure. I do not have any information in front of me in relation to the costs of what has been done. I know that a great deal of work was done on road costs in the 1990s. Much of that has always been around the issue of generating more income to improve our roading system over the long term.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a40bb8583d041e195ca58691fe88c96\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the Minister of Finance allowing himself to become a victim of a lie\u2014which is that motorists are not already paying sufficiently for all the projects we may have in mind for the next 10 years\u2014and is putting up an argument that is a clear case of creative accounting, when he talks about the cost of capital? Is it not true that $823 million is currently not spent for the purpose it is collected, and why is he taxing the motorist one more time?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246a1624378544276a4b23f8780c206df\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No. The cost of capital is not an aspect of creative accounting; it is fundamental. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f6190a7369c74da4ba81edea2432cc3f\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It is so. It\u2019s just debt servicing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f222e755e2df4cbd876277eed2fa4fbd\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Oh well, it is no wonder New Zealand First has a rather strange position on economic policy, with the cost of capital being regarded as an aspect of creative accounting! I will try to explain this to the member again: there are cost-of-capital elements, and there are other costs associated with roading. My authority for that is no less than the Automobile Association and the road transport federation, which, just before the last election\u2014undoubtedly not in collusion with any party in this House\u2014estimated that if we were to cover the full cost of roading, we would have to double the excise duty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238e537cf18734c9ba408e3b9df07cf55\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Noting that that answer was somewhat frivolous, I will be equally frivolous: can we have George Fairbairn here, and we will really get the facts of the Government\u2019s policy?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab0cd4401ce448d79801580778e20b79\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not a point of order, and the member knows it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ba393de38fb4b119a7bc9e3993946de\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it that Transfund New Zealand is currently sitting on $225 million in its bank account, yet people will shortly be forced to pay another 5c per litre of petrol to fix Auckland\u2019s congestion problems; is that not plain daylight robbery, so that the Government can finance some of its other whacko projects?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221a2ede1a8c249a8a024be0c1afcb911\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure some of that increased tax will be paid at night-time, as well. But passing beyond that, it is equally clear that if there is any change in excise duty, only the proportion that is due to Auckland in terms of its population will go to Auckland. The rest will go to the rest of the country, and the Auckland share will be matched by the Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022074e448ccd2e4edd85b8652a9b27a7fa\u0022\u003EMeridian Energy Ltd\u2014Project Aqua\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224806ac2800224fd4b2981afcc80ac9d2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Does she stand by her reported statement that the Resource Management Act 1991 is a \u201Cbeautifully written, beautifully balanced piece of legislation\u201D; if so, why is special legislation required for Government-owned Meridian Energy Limited\u2019s Project Aqua to proceed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022ba8852c004ee4423a567be0e6b269ca4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ba8852c004ee4423a567be0e6b269ca4\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, I do stand by that comment, but the member omitted the rest of that wonderful quote, which was that the Resource Management Act had to be made to work. The special Waitaki legislation is necessary, because, without a regional water plan, the Resource Management Act alone cannot balance the competing applications. We want to ensure that a fair and open process produces the best decisions for Waitaki water without favouring any applicant\u2014as wrongly presumed in the member\u2019s question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac188e5f66bd4cb390327f9b0c9c64ba\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister for the Environment seriously suggesting to the House and the people of New Zealand that we would not have this resource management bill in her name if it were not for Project Aqua?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022463f1630e09c45d0a28c04deb41969c0\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Without a water allocation plan, Project Aqua and the large irrigation requests\u2014if they were all granted\u2014would mean that no water would be left in the Waitaki.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db8248a585b54735a6db31462447c03e\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: What will be the effect of the water allocation framework to be drawn up by the Waitaki Catchment Board under the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efb8c8a8e54a482ea1caa3121f93d010\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The water allocation framework will become operative as if it were a regional water plan under the Resource Management Act, and will guide the decisions about specific applications for water. Of course, we would not need to legislate for this if the National Government had not abandoned local government during the 1990s, leaving many local authorities without the capacity to draw up regional water plans themselves.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bde584283fba40488126f274160c6f82\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister agree that after 12 years of the Resource Management Act, if there is any regional council that does not have a catchment management plan and a water allocation plan for a major river system, then it is negligent and failing in its duty; and would the Minister consider amending the Resource Management Act to require catchment plans and water allocation plans for the water resources controlled by regional councils?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c6241d3891c48b59d7f3e2ea0adc916\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I am loath to condemn regional and local councils for the absence of plans, because plans are also required for air quality, soil quality, as well as water quality, and\u2014because they were left without the resources\u2014some of them did not get around to that. An amount of persuasion has gone on with the councils. I do not want to pass that into legislation because I would much rather give a hand to enable different plans for different catchments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f860318c32534b1e9fabea1ae1855bd9\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister for the Environment explain to the House why the re-establishment of a separate Waitaki catchment commission to allocate water is not just turning the clock back 15 years, and is an admission that the Resource Management Act has failed miserably\u2014even if, in her eyes, it is a \u201Cbeautifully written, beautifully balanced piece of legislation\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270a067518c2e4220a23313b25ef11b50\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The bill uses the Resource Management Act\u2019s very good principles and very good procedures for the most part. The fact that there was an absence of a water allocation plan meant that it was \u201Cfirst come, first decision\u201D. When there are 66 applications, a \u201Cfirst in, first served\u201D policy does not mean that the best use is achieved.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee5ccc1e9374822be0fa407b5373f9e\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the ongoing concern and constant criticism expressed by interest groups and Opposition parties about delays the Resource Management Act causes for major projects, is the Minister surprised by criticism of her most recent effort to address such problems by those very same groups, including, most notably, the National and ACT parties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226753883be78b4dcab4914e948d53a7b9\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The Resource Management Act comes in for a lot of criticism from a whole range of people, whether it be non-governmental organisations or business concerns. As such, it is always under constant review.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022711acc97acf54af68609e9ee5511854d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Why has this Minister steadfastly refused to make substantial amendments to the Resource Management Act when asked to do so by the forestry industry, the agricultural sector, the energy sector, and the transport sector, but, hello, hello, when it is the Government\u2019s own company, she will put a special bill through just to help it out; and how is that any different from the special Clyde Dam legislation that was passed in 1983?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022503b303704d745c9800026e10e0eb89f\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: There is an absolute difference in relation to the Clyde Dam legislation. The Clyde Dam legislation was about fast-tracking\u2014this is not. That legislation was about reversing local decisions. [Interruption] Let me say again that that legislation was about reversing local decisions. [Interruption] This is about establishing a fair and considered process to make some difficult decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270093cceada04689a2d605d12dfe6552\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a speech made by Dr Michael Cullen in 1983, in which he talks about constitutional outrage and abuse of process, and in which he states that the people of Otago should decide how their water resources are used rather than a committee appointed\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b4dae7cb04460a90d7e456d6f61459\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows he went on too long. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5bc5cf144984307babe83238b6a807d\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that you might say that the barracking came from this side of the House, but not all of us were barracking. Some of us were actually trying to listen. I would really like the Minister to give the answer again so that we can hear it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227cdc759aa9f84b4bb1ee8f8bfa204784\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, I heard an amount of interjection, but I managed to hear the answer from this part of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c61548fe710e499d906b926b45c81f62\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Earlier you ruled that I was not to interject on a questioner ever again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002212724cbb05864fcab4b665efb839ea8b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, on the asking of a question, not an answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022350b0a8492f947e6adfdf291df0679af\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. So I have sat here, as you know, a model MP\u2014and it has been very difficult. But I could not help but observe that while Dr Nick Smith was raising a point of order, given that you have always, and quite correctly, demanded absolute silence, the Government whip, David Benson-Pope, interjected on him. The Minister, Marian Hobbs\u2014and she is nodding her head, indicating that she did\u2014interjected on him, but somehow when they do it on a point of order, it is OK.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d24cd43fbe52450b883e886588c2c232\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, let me say that it was a member of the National Party who interjected while the member was discussing that point of order. I usually tend to stand by that rule, but I am not going to be absolutely rigid every single moment of the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a64c5ac0b84f45e09daaf53bb7fdbc7c\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to take you back to your earlier ruling. I am sitting considerably closer to the Minister than Mr Prebble, who raised the point of order, and a lot closer than you are, and I could not hear the answer that was given. I suggest that it was perhaps a little unfair of you to rule that from your distance you could hear it, whereas those of us in this sector of the House could not. Maybe the Minister should be required to repeat it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b535e9c51624146820444944f2b411c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I hope the Minister could give us a brief summary of her answer. I suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that it should be that, and that there should be no interjection\u2014otherwise, we invite barracking, and members delay question time by then asking for the answers to be repeated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebf8a23183f04ae2b9c6db505c825b5e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, I think the point is well made. There was too much interjection. However, I thought the Minister was coping with it. I will now ask the Minister to give\u2014and I want silence\u2014a very brief summary of her answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c1cae148e22342d1a8c660b2c032b56a\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: As I recall the question, it was that this bill was being compared with the Clyde Dam legislation. This bill, which we have before us this week, will not be about fast-tracking any proposals. Nor is it about reversing local decisions, as it was in the Clyde Dam example. It is about establishing a fair and considered process to make some very difficult decisions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229ed114582d4741a0a60aaa2164c0f6d9\u0022\u003EStatistics New Zealand\u2014M\u0101ori Communities\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af3e9ccbbefa43bdb0dbe4629c5477e8\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Statistics: What is Statistics New Zealand doing to raise awareness and extend the use of official statistics in Maori communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u002268ccf9925e254948b087eb31d6e6da39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002268ccf9925e254948b087eb31d6e6da39\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Statistics):\u003C/span\u003E Statistics New Zealand has secured funding to retain six kaitakawaenga, who were appointed to work with M\u0101ori communities during the 2001 census. Their role is to raise awareness and extend the use of official statistics in M\u0101ori communities. Statistics New Zealand plays a vital role in informing social, political, economic, and business decision-making in this country, and we are proud to be a Government that is taking Statistics New Zealand seriously after years of neglect by those members opposite.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8965543bb1948c8a227e984ac5093b6\u0022\u003EMoana Mackey\u003C/span\u003E: What is Statistics New Zealand doing to improve the availability of official statistics about M\u0101ori businesses?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228684c34c42864982bfe45b7da73fb499\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE\u003C/span\u003E: Currently, no systematic official statistics about M\u0101ori business activity are available. As a means of improving the situation, Statistics New Zealand, in cooperation with Te Puni K\u014Dkiri, is currently testing strategies for identifying M\u0101ori businesses, so that a systematic range of statistics can be compiled from existing data sources. The Government believes that these statistics are needed to understand and enhance the contribution of commercial activities. [Interruption] That is right, and I might add that this Government is supporting Statistics New Zealand in such projects by providing it with an additional\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223fd331196d3f4c20bdbab1cc3c38921c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is sufficient.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e11bd67ecb8242df9d8b75b0f106309e\u0022\u003ETrans-Tasman Therapeutic Products Agency\u2014Bilateral Treaty\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224466dfe989984845a5142537cf5ac06d\u0022\u003ESUE KEDGLEY (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Has the Government made a decision to include the regulation of complementary medicines and dietary supplements in the proposed trans-Tasman therapeutic products agency, and when does it expect to sign a bilateral treaty between the Australian and New Zealand Governments establishing the agency?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00224a6156a5b8604075944353ce4ce50f84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a6156a5b8604075944353ce4ce50f84\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Yes. The Government has decided to include the regulation of complementary medicines and therapeutic dietary supplements in the proposed trans-Tasman therapeutic products agency. The treaty will be signed on 10 December.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d9f59a6fb4b40fb91e0e13c9899b48f\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Minister made this decision before the Health Committee, which is inquiring into this very issue, has even reported back, and what does she say to members of the Health Committee who have been toiling away on this issue for 8 months, only to find at the end of it that that we have completely wasted our time because the Minister had already made up her mind?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d6ee5ffc9b24fc49811b8d7bc18b1f0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is not reasonable to expect the Governments of New Zealand or Australia to wait any longer for a report from a select committee\u2014a report that the Government did not call for\u2014on something that was first decided in September 2002, 15 months ago. Governments cannot hold up agreements on that basis. What countries would deal with us if we did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c726ff2d8a00479c83fda227ff395ccc\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What process will be followed once the treaty has been signed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002297d8f02aad244aeba7edaaee728c5dc8\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is proposed that the national interest analysis and a text of the agreement be tabled in Parliament in accordance with the parliamentary treaty examination process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce06a8cf4180480a967eacf61fd52f1d\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: What are the cost implications for New Zealand\u2019s large complementary health-care market of having a trans-Tasman therapeutics product agency rather than mutual recognition and a strengthened New Zealand regulatory system?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293619ee52459460b9bc64d5c6c6be6e2\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Work undertaken by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research suggests the costs of regulating complementary medicines within a joint agency would be significantly less than that of a New Zealand regulatory scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c861ab6622884bddad54e0b951ef8396\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: What would she say to the hundreds of submitters who made submissions in good faith believing that we were conducting a genuine inquiry into this issue, and does she understand how they may consider her decision to be arrogant and extraordinary, and that they too may feel\u2014like the members of the Health Committee\u2014that they have completely wasted their time because she had already made a predetermined decision on the matter that the committee is inquiring into?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f496e103dc314159baedc9395901846d\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The Cabinet made a decision in principle in November 2002 that complementary medicines would be included in the joint regulator. We have waited patiently for the select committee to report back. It still has not reported back. We are working closely with the Australian Government. We have considered what we have heard along the way. I think the member may well even be pleased when she sees the extent of what has been considered in the joint regulator.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7c3d8b8dcbe4a96a4f697c02b4649e4\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: In light of comments by the Minister for Small Business yesterday that Australian businesses face much higher compliance costs than New Zealand businesses do, why is she supporting a proposal to regulate dietary supplements by an expensive, Australian-based therapeutic goods agency, when overwhelming evidence was presented to the select committee that that will increase the compliance costs of small New Zealand dietary supplement industries, and that no further assurance will be given to consumers as a result of these increased compliance costs, as the Pan Pharmaceuticals debacle amply illustrated?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002213cd31e492a44401bc1a1c558e8e27cf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That question was far too long. The Minister may comment briefly on one or two aspects of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da80318c7766437ab5af829b67a6cff6\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It is because of the Pan Pharmaceuticals situation that this Government has decided to move, in conjunction with Australia, to regulate complementary and therapeutic dietary supplements. Many New Zealanders demanded that we put in place regulation, and the work that I have seen shows that the impact on small business of what we intend to put in place will be minimal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002275fd2e0d6d684bbfb38ad2c932584efc\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Is she aware that the overwhelming majority of submitters, consumers, and dietary supplement industries are completely opposed to the course she is pursuing, and does she agree with Margaret Wilson\u2019s comment, in respect of the Supreme Court debate, that a remote and inaccessible final Court of Appeal is not a hallmark of modern democracy; if so, why is her Government supporting the establishment of a remote and inaccessible body, based in Australia and staffed principally by Australians, to regulate dietary supplements in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f80898a1d014ef2b2da4b6dac5d4311\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: The member is wrong on just about every point she has made. She has assumed that the body is remote, she has assumed that it is in Australia, and she has assumed that it is under Australia\u2019s control. She is wrong on all those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002221dbf2a7684a48ca85af9f2d313ca85f\u0022\u003ESpeed Cameras\u2014Demerit Points\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fe0362c39a1428c9b579d9708c7e24d\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Transport: Has he considered introducing demerit points on speed camera tickets; if so, what recommendations, if any, is he proposing to his Cabinet colleagues on this matter?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u0022cae56ac63a9b438590e1f5684d9644b8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cae56ac63a9b438590e1f5684d9644b8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, but I am not telling.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3bbd87fab945fc9bb3f39b5db07fe8\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: In making a recommendation to his Cabinet colleagues, did he tell his colleagues that in Victoria, which does have demerit points for speed camera tickets, it is not uncommon for family members to transfer demerit points between themselves to avoid getting a disqualification period, and in some companies it is not unheard of for the receptionist to accept demerit points so that top salespeople can keep their cars on the roads; and does this not show what a mockery such a policy would be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ce05404270bb4e90b52bf6893b0fcf57\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: There is a range of issues around demerit points for speed camera tickets. If the member would like further information on the issues in relation to Victoria, I am happy to show it to him. But those issues need to be considered carefully, and Cabinet is doing just that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022992955e5962746cb9dc9fd0f9c14eafa\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: What indication has he received about public attitudes to speed?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f4919e70168b4291997b30ba3af8cdc8\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: There is growing support for a tougher line to be taken against speeding on our roads. For example, an NBR poll in September this year showed that 57 percent of people supported demerit points for speed camera tickets. Given that one-third of all fatal accidents were primarily speed related, I am keen to hear a lot more from those whose families have suffered the consequences of speeding, and a little less from those who want to drive as fast as they like.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217ff788abd4b4677a118711056ad140e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government considering introducing demerit points for other transport matters, such as driving a tractor up the steps of Parliament, or does the Minister think he will end up with egg on his face, as the Government and the police have done today with the dropping of charges against Shane Ardern MP?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c45429244ea4e3aa28d051a9c890c7a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as that relates to the Minister\u2019s responsibility he may comment briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221eb94d3616174602bd0e8eb9a403d114\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: No, and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231db74b09e374e53a13b818537290645\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: In advising his Cabinet colleagues to consider demerit points as in Victoria, did the Minister tell them that Victoria\u2019s road toll has remained virtually unchanged in the past 10 years, yet New Zealand\u2019s has dropped by 37 percent in the same period, and did he tell his Cabinet colleagues that the New South Wales road toll has fallen by only 3 percent over the same period, despite motorists sometimes being hit with double demerit points?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229c5438f8f9224ca5ba8bc45256e146ef\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Of course, the mess that has been made with those statistics really does not deserve comment, but I will just say that New Zealand comes off a higher base. The truth is that Victoria has plateaued out, and is looking at a range of new measures. Victoria is looking here at some of the things we are doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9f51e5a9130488f8f0e016546475d28\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table research that shows that Victoria\u2019s road toll has remained static in the last 10 years while New Zealand\u2019s has dropped by 37 percent without having demerit points for speed cameras tickets, as Victoria has.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003EDocument not tabled.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dc78177ab14a40f08e4a7f668f4466d6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 3 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00220be75d3bfb4d402e97691391701353a9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220be75d3bfb4d402e97691391701353a9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a report from Brian Easton dated April 1997 that states the net social cost of tobacco abuse amounts to almost $22.5 billion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002289633b72af5d487db0788718856d8558\u0022\u003EHolidays Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d10d275fcde84c778a45b367a8aaeafb\u0022\u003ESecond Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00226c0c7e02436d4c3295c5e0d3a595c962\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c0c7e02436d4c3295c5e0d3a595c962\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Minister of Youth Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Labour: I move, That the Holidays Bill be now read a second time. I thank members of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee for their diligent work on the bill. The committee received more than 4,000 submissions, which clearly indicates the high level of interest in this area. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI would like to draw the attention of members to the following key amendments to the bill recommended by the committee. The bill heralds a fundamental and necessary change to employment standards in New Zealand. It will increase minimum annual holidays entitlements from 3 weeks to 4 weeks effective from 1 April 2007. We recognise the change to 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday will create issues for employers that need to be carefully managed, thus the long lead-time given. This will enable employers and their employees sufficient time to plan and to manage the change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThis change recognises that New Zealand employees deserve to enjoy 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday as much as their counterparts across the Tasman or in the UK. It has been 30 years since the last increase in the minimum annual holiday entitlement. We cannot keep annual holiday entitlements in a time warp. We would like to note the support of New Zealand First and the Green Party for this measure. I am sure those employees who already receive 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday will testify to the benefits this brings to their work and to their personal lives and families. Achieving a better work-life balance is becoming increasingly important in our often hectic and harried lives. This Government wants those benefits to be experienced by all employees, not just those with enlightened employers or sufficient bargaining power to secure these benefits for themselves. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThere has been a lot of attention to the flow-on implications of this increase. Some employees will already have 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday in their employment agreements. It is true that these employees can seek to renegotiate their entitlement, but the outcome of any such negotiation is up to the employers, employees, and the unions. If employers consider a higher annual entitlement as a useful tool for retention purposes or to reward long service, this is their choice. Increasing the minimum annual holiday entitlement is also important if New Zealand is to compete successfully against other countries in attracting and retaining skilled people. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe committee has also recommended amendments to the bill to address submitters\u2019 concerns about the payment of annual holidays. The key change in this area is that the ability to be paid for annual holidays on a pay-as-you-go basis has been extended to employees who are employed so sporadically that it is meaningless and extremely difficult for the employer to provide them with annual holidays. This provides a sensible balance, but this provision needs to be used appropriately. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EA range of submitters raised concerns with regard to what they describe as casual employees. However, we would suggest that in many of those cases the employees were not truly casual employees and could easily be provided with annual holidays. The arrangements for taking annual holidays during close-down periods have also been amended in response to concerns raised by submitters about the restriction it seemed to place on employer activities. It has been made clear that there is only one close-down period a year in which employers can direct their employees to take annual holidays. This does not stop employers from having other periods of closure. The arrangements for any additional periods of closure will have to be by agreement between employers, employees, and unions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EIn terms of public holidays, one of the key provisions in the bill is that all employees should genuinely be paid rate and a half for the time they work on a public holiday. This acknowledges the fact that the employee is sacrificing a day of national, religious, or cultural significance he or she could otherwise spend in relaxation or celebration with friends and family. Submitters did, however, raise concerns about how rate and a half can be provided to an employee in practice. The committee recommended amendments to the bill to clarify how rate and a half is to be calculated. As well as this, we want to ensure that employers, employees, and unions understand what the requirement to pay rate and a half for time worked on a public holiday means for them, and that employees are genuinely provided with that. To address these concerns the bill now provides that the employment agreements will have to include a specific provision stating that rate and a half will be paid for work on a public holiday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe bill proposes separate entitlements for sick leave and bereavement leave. This is a change from the 5 days of special leave provided in the Holidays Act to cover both types of leave. Submitters generally reacted positively to this measure. However, one of the major concerns that employer submitters had on the bill was their inability to require medical certificates from employees who were sick for 5 days or less. The committee has recognised that there may be circumstances where proof of entitlement may be appropriate, and that a 5-day period of restrictions may have been too restrictive. The committee has proposed an amendment to the bill to allow employers to require medical certificates from employees away on sick leave for 3 successive calendar days, rather than the 5 days originally proposed. This change achieves a fair balance between the rights and interests of employers and employees. Changes to the eligibility criteria for sick and bereavement leave reflects concerns from submitters that some groups of employees may have been unable to access this leave. Access to sick and bereavement leave has been extended to employees who have worked for an average of 10 hours per week and at least 40 hours per month for the same employer for 6 months.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E In conclusion, on behalf of the Hon Margaret Wilson, I thank members of the committee again for their work. Already a good bill has been further improved by their efforts. The bill represents an important step towards achieving the Government\u2019s vision of New Zealand as a great place to live, to learn, to work, and to do business. It is a key component of the employment relations framework put in place by this Government. Minimum standards such as those provided in the bill promote fair dealings, protect vulnerable employees, and prevent a race to the bottom. Businesses in the economy will not flourish unless employees have a good working environment\u2014one where rights and obligations are appropriately balanced, so that each party is best placed to contribute to positive and productive employment relationships. I commend the Holidays Bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022b351b1149180426a8c90216fb9171088\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b351b1149180426a8c90216fb9171088\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party recognises that the contribution to this country\u2019s productive economy from working New Zealanders is considerable. We do not in any way wish their conditions of work to be at all draconian. We want to see a working environment where those who do contribute to the economy take their rewards from it just as much as do those who put their capital towards its growth. It does not matter what sort of gloss Mr Tamihere or Margaret Wilson might put on this bill: the workers of this country will pay for it. The bill, which has a number of new provisions that perhaps clarify holidays legislation in this country, will be most notable for the introduction of a fourth week of annual leave. That fourth week will be paid for by hard-working New Zealanders as this Government\u2014the Labour Government\u2014effectively imposes a wage cap on those workers over the next 4 to 5 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EOne of the things that have gone a little bit unnoticed by many workers is that the earliest possible date at which a person might qualify for 4 weeks\u2019 holiday is 1 April 2007, which is four Christmases away. I have to tell the House that if a person takes up an employment opportunity on 30 March 2007, that person will not be entitled to his or her fourth week of holiday until after 1 April 2008. So what we will see now is 5 years of wages being ground down in this country as the employers who provide opportunities for income prepare for the additional costs that this bill is likely to impose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI can see Government members laughing and saying that, no, that will not be how it works. But it needs to be seen in this context. Firstly, there are about 2 million workers in this country and all of them, whether they are currently on 4 weeks\u2019 or 3 weeks\u2019 leave, will expect an extra week\u2019s leave. When that is extrapolated out, it means that the extra week\u2019s leave for workers in this country is the equivalent of 40,000 full-time jobs in any given year; 40,000 full-time jobs in any year is the equivalent cost of the 1 week\u2019s extra leave provided by this bill. I ask Government members whether they have been told that that was the cost. I ask Government members whether they have considered what the effect on the economy might be. If one takes a whole city the size of Timaru, or Palmerston North, or New Plymouth and puts the people in it on holiday for a year, the economic cost of that is borne by every worker throughout this country. Every worker throughout the country will pay for those 40,000 jobs, those 40,000 contributions to the economy that will be taken out progressively from 2007.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe do not in any way begrudge people the opportunity to have quality time with their families, and other such things. But we do ask whether people should not have a choice about whether they go on holiday or take additional income. There is no way of looking at this bill without coming to the conclusion that it will be the workers who pay for it. Even Treasury has told the Government that very fact. Cabinet received the information and just decided to ignore it. It decided that it would be a nice bit of spin to tell workers in this country that they will get an extra week\u2019s leave, but then fail to tell them that they will have to wait four Christmases to get it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI heard one of the lesser lights of the Labour Party say that we were being mean in some way by pointing out that workers will be paying for the extra week\u2019s leave, and that, as it was the Christmas season, we were being particularly mean. Well, I think it is a plain tease to hang out the prospect of an extra week\u2019s holiday, but to ensure it will be 4 years before anyone qualifies for it. [Interruption] Those 4 years will mean that workers in the electorate that Mr Gosche currently represents\u2014and that is only a temporary arrangement\u2014will have their wages stunted and pruned over the next 4 years. It makes sense. Our Minister of Finance is absolutely fixated on growing his surplus to almost extreme lengths at the present time. He tells us that the economy is going absolutely brilliantly, and he skites about the fact that New Zealand is now a $17-an-hour economy. There is absolutely no alternative for employers, in an economy that is so fixated on containing costs, but to prune the wages of their workforce in order to afford as a group those 40,000 jobs that no longer will be worked as a result of the extra week\u2019s leave. So we are very concerned about the passage of that part of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe also see a huge gap in the legislation in terms of the opportunity that should have been given to workers to trade off their accumulated holiday entitlements for cash.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EWe know that numerous people work their weekends, work during public holidays, work through the whole 12 months, and do not take their current entitlement of 2 or 3 weeks\u2019 leave. They quite often end up with accumulated annual leave of, maybe, 3 to 5 weeks over and above their annual entitlement. Under this bill their choices are simply to take 7 or 8 weeks off work or lose their holiday entitlement. We ask a simple question: why would fit, healthy, young New Zealanders, who are able to survive the year on 11 statutory holidays and, say, 2 weeks\u2019 holiday, not want the opportunity to say they would rather take an extra pay packet and use that money to get rid of a bit of debt, or to put it towards the mortgage or towards a deposit on a house? Why should they not have the opportunity to do that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EThis bill fails New Zealand workers in a very significant way. It is a cynical approach to the concept of improving opportunities for workers in this country. I note that it is former union members in the Labour Party who are laughing beneath their jackets at the prospect of their workers having to pay for this extra week\u2019s leave over the next 4 years. I ask workers in this country whether they really believe that 40,000 jobs can be effectively taken out of the economy, to be paid for by someone, without that affecting their wage packets.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003EI also ask them to think about how much their wage packets have grown in the last 4 years. They will know that wage growth has been very meagre indeed. I ask them to think about what it will be like over the next 4 years, with much, much lower wage growth than they have experienced in the past 4 years. The greatest wage growth came during the 1990s under a National Government. From 1995, workers took home more of the money they earned than workers had ever done in any other period in this country\u2019s history. This current Government has not moved workers\u2019 incomes, at all. Wage packets have barely kept pace with inflation. They have barely kept pace with the costs of daily life. Now we see this cynical throwing of a fish to the hungry seals\u2014an extra week\u2019s holiday. Well, workers will not let themselves be treated in that way. It will be workers who tip this Government out of office for being so cynical and malicious.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u00221282722d0be1444fa1da9b7f6e1029bb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221282722d0be1444fa1da9b7f6e1029bb\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E The Holidays Bill represents another step forward in the implementation of the policies of the minority Labour-Progressive coalition Government. It is another step forward for the people of New Zealand. It takes a number of progressive steps in the modernising and upgrading of our labour laws. The bill clarifies and reforms what has become a messy law. It ensures that those who work on public holidays are not penalised, it clarifies the calculation of annual holiday pay, it provides for 5 days\u2019 entitlement to sick leave, and it ensures that payment for sick and bereavement leave is at the relevant daily rate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThe most significant part of the bill, in the view of the Progressive party, is, of course, the provision to increase the minimum annual holiday entitlement from 3 weeks to 4 weeks. I do not want to irritate anyone, but I must say this issue was a huge, gaping hole in the annual leave entitlements in the legislation as it was first presented to the House earlier in the year. As Margaret Wilson has acknowledged in the speech read for her by John Tamihere, this is the most significant reform for low-income workers for over 30 years. The year 1974 was the last time that another week of annual leave was granted to the workforce. In that time, professionals, management, some sections of the highly skilled workforce, and others have long moved to 4 weeks\u2019 leave, and more. So has our greatest trading partner, Australia. Members of Parliament, with a flexibility of holiday time that low-income workers do not have, have now in their majority recognised what is owed to those who have borne large sacrifices with the restructuring of the economy\u2014often poorly done and unwisely instituted. This measure will afford them more appropriate rest, recreation, and family time to compensate for more than a decade of the rolling back of conditions\u2014in particular, the 40-hour week. That is the decade that Gerry Brownlee lauded as a decade of great improvement for workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EI am very proud that the Progressives and the Labour Party are now at one on the issue of changing the law to allow for 4 weeks\u2019 leave, although the Progressives will continue to advocate that it come in sooner than 2007. I will do that by a Supplementary Order Paper in my name, which seeks to bring 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave into force on 1 April 2005. This move is socially just. Our families are under pressure\u2014all parties state that. United Future, although consistently opposed to this family-strengthening reform, states that strengthening families is one of its major planks. Four weeks\u2019 minimum annual leave relieves that pressure on families.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EI recently attended one night of my younger son\u2019s school camp. A number of parents had been there for the week. They had taken that time out of their holiday entitlement. I had a more flexible arrangement. One father was a factory worker. He had been with his present job for a decade. He had 3 weeks\u2019 annual leave. He gave up one of those weeks to be with his son. He was overjoyed that 4 weeks\u2019 minimum annual leave would come in, because that would still leave him with 3 other weeks for his wife and his other children. It is to allow productive workers like him to put adequate time into their children that this measure is aimed. He was disappointed that he had to wait until 1 April 2007, but he brightened up when I advised him that the Progressives had an amendment to have it begin on 1 April 2005. I will say more on that later.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EWhen this measure was first introduced by the Progressives, only the Greens came out in support; it was their policy and they supported it from the beginning. But gradually support built. From the original 11 votes in this Parliament, the Labour Party has added its 52 votes, to give a parliamentary majority. I am aware that New Zealand First, particularly through the work of Peter Brown, had intended to support this measure, although it does not support it now because of its opposition to the total bill. This turn-round of support came because of the massive public support for the measure. That support was generated by a postcard distribution campaign, workplace meetings, union stopworks, letter writing, and a lobbying campaign of MPs. In the correspondence that I received, I noted how much support came from those who already had 4 weeks\u2019 leave but wanted that provision extended to the total workforce. That is the Kiwi tradition of fair play for all. They did not want women who clean late at night, assembly line workers, young parents, women who have broken service from having children, and the many others, largely in low-income positions, to be deprived of the benefits they have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EIn economic terms, those who decry the cost fail to talk of either the social or economic benefits. What price do we put on the social benefit of the extra time that parents can spend with their children? What price do we put on the health of low-income workers? Why do opponents forget to advise that the total increase will not be a further 2 percent of the total wage bill covering all workers, because a large number of employees get 4 weeks\u2019 leave now? The annual net cost will be around $350 million\u20141 percent of the wage bill. These opponents forget to include the increased spending in the economy because people on holiday spend money on goods and services. They are silent on the fact that Britain, which introduced 4 weeks\u2019 leave for all last year\u2014with cries of economic disaster from the right-wing parties\u2019 political counterparts in Britain\u2014has actually strengthened its economic position. Why is Australia not an economic basket case, when it has had 4 weeks\u2019 holiday for all of 20 years? It is probably a reason why the Australian rugby team is better than the All Blacks!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003ERaising the minimum standard for leave entitlements is vital and critical to New Zealand for many reasons. It is important, if New Zealand is to continue to compete successfully against other countries, to attract and maintain skilled people. New Zealand has been running current account deficits in each and every year for over a quarter of a century. Under the Labour-Progressive coalition Government, our economy has outperformed the average of the OECD over the past 4 years, and we are forecast to continue to outperform the average of the OECD over the next few years. Our unemployment rate is now one of the lowest amongst the rich group of nations, but we must still do better. We will never export our way out of our inability to pay our way in the world, by competing on international markets on the basis of cheap labour and low costs alone.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EThat approach would be a loser\u2019s approach, a race to the bottom, as we attempted to compete with the likes of the Democratic Republic of Congo on the basis of ever-cheaper labour and ever-cheaper commodity production. The Congo does not have 4 weeks\u2019 leave entitlement for its workers. In fact, the vast nation of the Congo is a living experiment for ACT policies. One does not have to pay federal tax, or even state taxes, in the Congo. Businesses do not pay company tax either.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022747fefb3e3fa4df5b60d644119247a37\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a stupid, stupid statement from a stupid member. He is a half-wit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b9662cfb393c4598b6301c7af460bcac\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think that calling out \u201Ca stupid member\u201D is not within the Standing Orders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222e97330bed444bb78fb0a73d57aec444\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: It was more than that, and I ask the member to withdraw under Standing Order 117, \u201CPersonal reflections\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bfc8e81f2734823a7c2146eac292a57\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise for my comments relating to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece04576724c434d9a5d31aef58c4359\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: In the Congo, businesses do not pay company tax, either. There are no expensive public education or health systems to burden the consumers and taxpayers of Kinshasa. I guess we could say it is an ACT party paradise that National wants to join\u2014no tax, no welfare, no education, no minimum labour standards, and no hope for the majority. Progressive takes a different approach from that. We have to add knowledge, add value, and integrate innovation into everything we export. That is how we are steadily regaining our place in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EBut it is not just ACT that does not understand the nature of a modern economy; the National Party leader, Don Brash, said that any future centre-right coalition Government he leads would change the law and end 4 weeks\u2019 leave\u2014of course, they would leave it for themselves. Don Brash has attacked the Progressives\u2019 4 weeks\u2019 leave initiative on the grounds that it is\u2014yes, one can guess it\u2014a cost to business. But 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave is a critical financial issue in the battle to keep low-income families in the productive workforce and contributing to New Zealand\u2019s economic development. The financial cost of balancing work and family responsibilities is too high, or on the margins of being unaffordable, for many low-income two-parent families. Having 4 weeks\u2019 leave is long overdue for this part of the productive workforce. The fierce opponents of this family-friendly move\u2014National, ACT, and United Future, which now, unfortunately, are joined by New Zealand First\u2014all get 4 weeks\u2019 leave, and more, but they will deny it to those who need legislation to get what other, more privileged people, like the MPs in those anti-family parties, already get.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003ENew broom Don Brash now will have to repeal 4 weeks\u2019 minimum annual leave; he will add it alongside his moves to revoke our nuclear-free status. He has pledged to sell Kiwibank\u2014the \u201CPeople\u2019s Bank\u201D, popularly known as Jim Anderton\u2019s bank\u2014and other State assets that he, Mr Prebble, and Mr Dunne previously assisted in selling to the rich at bargain-basement prices. Now National and its putative coalition partners ACT and United Future want to repeat the nightmare of the sale of public assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222dab19524446455d8bf29927b6f9b055\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: The member is telling lies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022554c3230b0af4cf38c41879aae0e2f9d\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that is out of order. He will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ece3a2578fb44e6b82f8d9a58eb33145\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b010681de0464ad28ad317f1a2586ec7\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON\u003C/span\u003E: Where is New Zealand First? Fresh from attacking immigrants as its contribution to the season of goodwill, it now decides it will vote against 4 weeks\u2019 annual minimum leave. How does New Zealand First explain that to the very Kiwi battlers that it came to represent? Once again, as in 1996 when it campaigned as the party that would throw out National, it has joined with the parties that sell public assets and cut the conditions of workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003EI will do my best to persuade my Labour colleagues in the Committee stage to support 1 April 2005 as the introduction date of this bill. I do not want a situation where the reward is denied to those who, if they have to wait until 1 April 2007, will not have the help they would have had, and the family time, if it had been introduced earlier. The bill, especially its 4 weeks\u2019 leave component, is a time for celebration for all fair-minded, pro-family New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u002286da1e8be1ae4425a984a3db21077088\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002286da1e8be1ae4425a984a3db21077088\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E New Zealanders are in the main hard-working, friendly, and of flexible disposition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9b1deacf765438d90bf37668f01b6ac\u0022\u003EJohn Key\u003C/span\u003E: Not all of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c501ac87cde240f1b6fd5f920b5270dd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: In the main. On one of the few times I have gone back to the UK since I have been here\u2014I think it is well known in the House that I originated in the UK\u2014people have said to me: \u201CWe like New Zealanders here. They are hard-working, they are flexible, and they will turn their hand to anything.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002266bb572b237c465296b960d8c970433a\u0022\u003EClayton Cosgrove\u003C/span\u003E: Except that member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220934058fd8c840a8b78a2c7ed61dc0e8\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: This will stun the member over here: the last time I went back there, they said to me: \u201CWe like your people over here.\u201D They put me down as a New Zealander. That member will be silenced forever. I felt very proud and very privileged. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E Matt Robson spoke to me one day and said he was going to promote this bill. I reacted pretty warmly, as did my caucus colleagues. We wanted to support the 4 weeks\u2019 holiday provision. Basically\u2014which became quite clear to the members of the select committee\u2014it is only the low paid, the young, and the casual employees who are on 3 weeks. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIt is all very well for Gerry to stand up here\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002267e9146a8ce543b8a4f3a7fb02321336\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: I refer the member to Speaker\u2019s ruling 6/1 (Supplement). The member should refer to a member by his or her full name.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f4cc448b764704ae59590536bcef9d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Goodness me, I do not want to offend 6/1! It is all very well for members of the National Party to stand up here and say that 4 weeks will send the country into oblivion. Listening to the honourable Mr Brownlee, one would have thought that the sun would not rise in the morning if we supported 4 weeks\u2019 leave. I bet he cannot remember a recent time when he was on less than 6 or 7 weeks per year. [Interruption] Before that he was a schoolteacher, and they get plenty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222b66efdb03d84a8788d663ccf4486ce2\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a low blow.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2b15a83e49f403c89f021473bf6e54c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is a low blow. I believe, and New Zealand First believes\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c25c196fb1a94410af65c4ef9031c580\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was momentarily distracted. I wonder whether the member could repeat his comments. It would be unfair for me not to be able to enjoy them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f10d893d753c42d4bf15eb9847294d08\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4a1a0344658416e89d4a77320082f37\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We believe that low-paid people, young people, and casual employees in this country need to have some of their working conditions addressed. We know we cannot raise their wages to the level that Australia or the UK pays, but their holiday conditions should be of a similar type. They certainly should be of a similar type to the rest of New Zealand\u2019s population. We believe that it is wrong, unfair, and unreasonable for our economic well-being to depend on the low-paid having 3 weeks\u2019 holiday, whilst the rest of us enjoy quite a lot more. We will definitely support the provisions for 4 weeks\u2019 holiday in the Holidays Bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand First caucus debated the bill at length, but we are in a dilemma. The select committee did a good job. Its members listened to the New Zealand First submission about casual workers double-dipping, which has been amended, and also to our concerns about sick leave, which were shared by many submitters. Those provisions have also been modified, but we still believe that the Holidays Bill is business unfriendly. Should we hold back from supporting the progress of this bill? It can be modified by Supplementary Order Paper in the Committee stage. New Zealand First had a special segment of its caucus discuss the issue, and the debate was pretty torrid, frank, and tense. We say to the country that we believe that the bill has to be positively addressed. At this point in time we say that it is business unfriendly, but we cannot go on saying that for ever. We will look positively at it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EDespite what Mr Matt Robson said earlier, New Zealand First is longer in a dilemma. We will support the bill. We might put a few amendments in at the Committee stage, but we will support its progress. We will not vote against it at this stage. In fact, we will vote for it. We are not prepared to have New Zealanders treated as second-rate, on a world basis, in their own country, because they are well-received overseas. To employers, who will, no doubt, make representations to us, we will say that we will support increasing workers\u2019 leave, but we will look favourably at some sort of tax concession when we become part of the Government after the next election. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe believe that New Zealanders are entitled to a fairer go than they are currently getting, and we will push for that. We will say to working people that we know that they can get better conditions elsewhere in the world, but that we do not want to see our young people, in particular, going permanently off shore. New Zealanders have always gone off shore for their OE trips\u2014for 2 years, or whatever\u2014but now many of them want to go permanently. That is partly to do with the situation they find themselves in with student loans, but it is partly to do with employment conditions here. If this bill can make it more attractive for young people, in particular, to develop their careers here\u2014although it is not just aimed at young people\u2014we will certainly support its progress. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThis legislation has been a long time coming. When Max Bradford was the Minister responsible for the Department of Labour, he went too far to the right. He wanted to sell everything and got nowhere. As I recall, it was New Zealand First, when we were part of the coalition Government, that stopped that proceeding. We said that was going too far in the wrong direction. This bill has gone slightly too far to the left, but it is trying to make things fairer for the average working person. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EI warn the Government now that probably some\u2014if not many\u2014employers will look at this legislation and say that because of it they do not want to employ people in permanent positions. They will say that they would rather stick with casual employees. There is an incentive here to employ more people on a casual basis. New Zealand First believes that, and we sincerely hope the issue can be addressed. We will be looking at advocating tax relief, particularly for people who employ permanent employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EIn summary, we have always supported 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. We listened carefully at the select committee and there was nothing that changed our minds on that. We are not a party that wants to see people queuing outside post offices to collect their dole. Basically, we believe that people in this country have to be treated fairly, and when we treat them fairly and they get a fair return for a day\u2019s work, they perform. Holidays are an important part of employment conditions. We also believe that the main part of the bill, as I said earlier, is business unfriendly, but that that can be overcome. We believe that some of the flaws in it have been taken care of, and that we can perhaps take care of a few others in the Committee stage. New Zealand First supports the progress of this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022275f868042e042e9b5448c761e9f84a4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022275f868042e042e9b5448c761e9f84a4\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E It is great to see the Holidays Bill back before the House\u2014in time, I hope, to be passed by Christmas this year. In the long run, this bill will be one of the best Christmas presents the workers of New Zealand could hope for. Although the Green Party is disappointed that the introduction of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave for all workers is being postponed until 1 April 2007, at least this bill contains a statutory promise that I hope any Government, post the 2005 election, will keep. I cannot imagine that even National, ACT, or United Future will want to go out on the hustings and tell ordinary people to their faces that they will repeal this bill, should they become Government in 2005\u2014a very unlikely outcome, I am sure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAlthough I do not like the way the implementation of 4 weeks\u2019 leave has been delayed in a way that looks as if it could, perhaps, be an inducement to vote in a certain way, at the same time any party or candidate who professes to care about the welfare of ordinary New Zealanders and their families must surely support 4 weeks\u2019 leave for all. After all, it is around 30 years since the statutory entitlement for 3 weeks\u2019 leave was introduced. That is a long time, and our society and culture have changed hugely since then. Longer hours of work, and much more equitable participation in the workforce by women, mean that individuals and families need every day\u2019s leave they can get, just to help them survive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EMany workers on higher incomes, and in jobs and professions that have comparatively stronger bargaining power, have already negotiated themselves 4, or even 5 or more, weeks\u2019 leave. It is a grave injustice that those who are the lowest paid, and who are often in the least personally rewarding of occupations, are those who are also the least likely to get anything over the 3-week minimum. All workers are human beings, with human needs for rest, relaxation, recuperation, and time with children, partners, family, and friends. Our children, partners, family, and friends need time with us, too. The cost of an extra week\u2019s leave is small when compared with the beneficial effects for so many, and with the fact that, overall, employees\u2019 motivation, performance, and productivity will all be substantially enhanced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOn top of that, the 4 weeks\u2019 leave being introduced here is already being offered by many other countries. Every single country in the European Union must, by law, provide a minimum of 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday, and while some in this Parliament might find it hard to believe, in Austria, Denmark, Finland, France, and Spain, all workers have a statutory minimum of 6 weeks\u2019 holiday. In our near neighbour, Australia, workers have had the privilege of 4 weeks\u2019 leave since around the time that New Zealand moved to 3 weeks\u2019, showing once again just how slow we are at times to make progress\u2014despite priding ourselves so often on our supposedly enlightened attitudes to social change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge the work of my colleague Matt Robson, of the Engineers Union, and of other unions and individuals who have led the push over the last year for 4 weeks\u2019 leave for all. Mr Robson\u2019s member\u2019s bill for 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave has been incorporated into this one, and even though the Progressives and Greens share a deep disappointment that implementation is so far away, at least we are making a major step forward with this legislative commitment to 4 weeks\u2019 leave in 2007. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EBeyond the 4 weeks\u2019 issue, of course, a number of other significant improvements to holiday law are included in the bill we are considering this afternoon. The overall goal of the bill is to make holiday requirements easier for both employers and employees to understand and work with. I am sure that despite the usual flurry of objections that featured in the committee hearings, in practice many employers\u2014both large and small\u2014will appreciate the clarity this bill will bring once it becomes law. Among other things, we are particularly pleased that it is now very clear that all employees must receive 11 public holidays annually, that provisions for payment and time in lieu for working on public holidays are established and simplified, that arrangements around the payment of holiday entitlements are being made both more transparent and easier to understand, that clear minimum entitlements to sick and bereavement leave are established, and that casual staff who work in an ongoing situation will also be entitled to bereavement leave. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI guess our major disappointment with this part of the bill\u2014apart from the fact that it will take 4 years until 4 weeks\u2019 leave will begin to take effect\u2014is that during the select committee process the Government decided to retrogressively amend the clause that originally provided that an employer could request proof of entitlement for sick leave after people had been away from work for 5 days. Labour has chosen instead to reduce the period before proof is required to 3 days. That means workers will end up at times\u2014depending on the nature of their employers\u2014having to endure the inconvenience and cost of going to a doctor for a medical certificate when there is no other reason for seeking medical attention. The Green Party will be moving an amendment during the Committee stage of this bill to return the relevant time period in the clause from 3 to its original 5 days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnother area of concern for us in this bill has been around the way sick and domestic leave have been brought together as one. It is great that all workers have a minimum of 5 days\u2019 sick leave a year, but for those employees with dependants, that leave can get eaten away very quickly when children or other dependants become ill to the extent the wage earner has to stay home and look after them. That is a very real situation for the hundreds of thousands of workers who have young children and/or sick or elderly relatives to care for. We believe it would have been preferable to separate sick leave from domestic leave, so that a distinct domestic leave entitlement existed for those who genuinely needed it. However, I acknowledge that that was something not strongly pushed by submitters, and it was certainly not endorsed by Government members. I hope I live to see the day when we are a humane enough society to recognise the needs not just of the staff members themselves but also of their dependants. Sadly, that day is not here yet. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOverall however, this is a welcome and important bill, which will benefit not just workers and their families, but also employers through increased productivity, and society at large through the benefits of greater work/life balance and happiness all around. People in those echelons of society who take 4, 5, 6, or more weeks\u2019 leave for granted often seem to forget\u2014if they ever knew\u2014what it is like to be able to have time off for only half the summer school holidays, with nothing up the sleeve for the rest of the year. I am glad that Labour, the Progressives, and the Green Party have been able to work together to achieve at least 1 extra week\u2019s leave for all workers by 2007, and that, through other provisions in the Holidays Bill, there will now be a lot more certainty for both employers and staff when it comes to dealing with the complexity of leave entitlements in all their forms. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00221b8408ee762841989a418a4aa0e6e1b5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b8408ee762841989a418a4aa0e6e1b5\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party did support the repeal of the Holidays Act of 1981 to provide holiday and leave entitlements that would be easier to understand and apply, but, this bill, in the way it has been drafted and amended, does the opposite, so we will not be supporting it, and we have a minority report in the commentary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe purpose of the bill is supposedly to address a work-life balance. We would say that it is not the proper role of Government to interfere with the work-life balance of individual people. That is up to people themselves to negotiate with their employers, and for employers to negotiate with employees. In some cases employees might prefer to have extra money instead of another 5 days off. That might contribute to a better work-life balance for them than having 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. They might like to cash in a week\u2019s holiday and take 3 weeks\u2019 holiday, or take 2 weeks\u2019 holiday and cash in the other 2 weeks\u2019 holiday. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe had submission after submission at the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee saying exactly this from employers who were very in touch with the people whom they employed, and who said that a lot of their employees get into financial difficulty. They see their holiday pay sitting there like money in the bank. They constantly come to their employers and ask whether they can have it in cash instead of taking a holiday, because they are so stressed. Their family life is affected because of financial difficulties they have got into, but they are unable to trade a week or 2 weeks\u2019 holiday for the cash. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe see this as a patronising attitude that treats employees like children who are unable to decide for themselves and work a way into a work-life balance. We are particularly concerned at the way the 4 weeks\u2019 minimum annual leave has been introduced. At a Business New Zealand conference during the winter of discontent, the Prime Minister promised that 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave was not on the Government\u2019s agenda. Then the unions got agitated, and Matt Robson\u2019s bill was introduced. However, that bill was considered in select committee alongside the Holidays Bill, and not as a serious alternative. Many submitters either ignored it or did not treat it seriously, because they heeded the Prime Minister\u2019 promise that the 4 weeks\u2019 minimum leave provision would not be passed by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThen the Prime Minister promised the unions that the 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave would in fact come in. She hedged her bets by saying it would be passed during this Parliament, and not come into effect until April 2007. That is constitutionally unsound. How can this Government have something that binds a future Parliament? How can it have something sneaked through like that? It was never seriously discussed at select committee, and at the very least it should have gone back to select committee after the Labour Party conference. Submitters should have been re-invited to put in their submissions, and we should have considered and discussed those submissions. That has not happened, and this 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave is going through in a profoundly undemocratic way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe other thing we looked at is this \u201Cpay as you go\u201D holiday pay. We have tidied up the bill a bit, in that it is now casual staff who will, if they agree, be allowed to be paid \u201Cpay as you go\u201D holiday pay; that is, where it is built into their weekly or 2-weekly wages. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EHowever, the ACT party argued that this should also be extended at the very least to permanent part-time workers, who should be able to agree to \u201Cpay as you go\u201D holiday pay, too. Permanent part-timers, such as people who work in restaurants and those sorts of places, have terrible trouble trying to get their holiday pay from former employers. This is often not because the employers are deliberately trying to withhold it from them, but because it is a huge compliance cost for those employers trying to keep up with multitudes of staff who shift from one place of work to another. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EIn many instances, it is better for permanent part-timers to have their holiday pay as \u201Cpay as you go\u201D, but this Government has denied them the opportunity even to ask for that. That is another example of how workers are being treated as children by this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThere is another area where the Government has got it wrong. Special leave is separated out in this legislation\u2014that is, sick leave and bereavement leave. I will come to sick leave in a minute. Bereavement leave is now so permissively written in terms of the relevant factors that employers must consider when they decide whether to give someone bereavement leave, that it will be hugely open to dispute. I predict that this will be a feast for employment lawyers, and there will be more and more cases going before mediation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAmong the issues that have to be taken into account when employers are deciding to give bereavement leave are cultural factors. Now, what on earth does that mean? How on earth is an employer meant to work out what is meant by cultural factors? We had one submitter who gave a very interesting submission to us. She talked about, again, a factory with shift workers, where an employer was approached by the whole shift\u201440 people\u2014who wanted to go to the funeral of the father of one of the workers. The employer was able to say to them: \u201CThose workers can go, and those workers can go, but if those workers go they won\u2019t get paid, because they don\u2019t have any bereavement leave left.\u201D He was able to do that with clarity, and the employees who did not have any paid bereavement leave left did not take the day off. Under this legislation the employer would be wiser to give the whole shift the time off and close down the factory if those employees claimed they needed to go to the funeral for cultural reasons. Otherwise, the uncertainty stakes are raised so high that the employer risks, at worst, being dragged into litigation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EAt least the sick leave provisions have been reduced from 5 days proof down to 3 days proof, but we would argue that this is still open to abuse. There are employers who are desperately trying to manage absenteeism. They do not routinely ask for proof after 1 day\u2019s absence, or sometimes even after 3 days if it is a good employee who is absent, but if they spot a pattern of abuse\u2014for instance, if they spot people taking Mondays and Fridays off regularly\u2014under the present legislation employers are allowed to seek proof without waiting for 3 days. We argue that the 3-day requirement is something that will be open to abuse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThere are significant costs for small businesses in this legislation. If one looks at public holidays, where the relevant daily pay is a new concept, and if one looks at salaried employees, where the penal rates are already built into the employment contracts and salaries, at the best those will last for only 1 year after this legislation comes into force. This bill overrides existing employment agreements that state that the salary or base wage is specifically included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThis will cost the country up to $900 million if one counts the lost wage rises to workers. If there is any merit in the argument that it will increase productivity, why do we not just increase annual leave to 48 weeks and have 4 weeks in work? Then productivity would go through the roof. That is the logical extension of that argument. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EFinally, what does the Government say to the Auckland District Health Board, which estimates that this bill will add another $2 million to its annual costs? Where will that come from\u2014increased taxes or reduced services?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00225d3fd52f182e49d5bfe04a947060da0f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225d3fd52f182e49d5bfe04a947060da0f\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future voted for this bill on its first reading because we could see the value in any attempt to clarify the confusion for employers and workers alike surrounding leave entitlements. The representation of Business New Zealand and the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions on the advisory group that was consulted over the bill reflected that common desire to tidy up the holidays legislation. But we also signalled that we could not support the bill through its latter stages if the Government continued to use this opportunity to tidy up the Holidays Act to award new entitlements to workers. This Government talks a lot about good faith and collective bargaining, but this amounts to lip service when it tells employers and employees what the terms of that agreement will be. Where is the freedom to choose? Where is the freedom to negotiate?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022958e2fc7c9ba404a98dbf7b62f15bc37\u0022\u003EBrian Connell\u003C/span\u003E: There is none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36db9a888b841f5b8951c025414d8a4\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: The member is right\u2014there is none. In life we go through seasons. A young worker who has just got married might prefer to negotiate with his or her employer to take only 2 weeks\u2019 annual holiday and take an additional 2 weeks\u2019 pay. But in this legislation I see there is no freedom to choose; there is just legalism, which binds people. People in this nation are being instructed day after day to live by the law. The law will tell them everything they can do, yet they no longer do what is right or, often, what is fair, and that concerns me greatly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWork is not a bad thing; work is a good thing. Holidays have been mentioned a lot in this bill as being a great time to spend with the family. Matt Robson has said of United Future that it is the family-friendly party. Well, we are, and we understand there is a lot more to building a successful family than having 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. If members actually look and work amongst many people, as I do, they will find that holidays can be a time of incredible stress, heartache, and many other challenges for families in New Zealand. I know that in February and March there is often a lot of counselling and work to do with people who have gone away, because there are a lot of pressures on families these days. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe new entitlements imposed by the bill include a minimum rate of time and a half for those working on public holidays, in addition to an alternative day\u2019s leave. Business New Zealand estimates that this will cost employers an additional 1 percent in wages, and one can start to see how it will begin to add up. The Auckland District Health Board has calculated that the bill could cost it at least $1.25 million a year in extra pay for doctors on salaries and staff on casual contracts, as these agreements do not include allowances for working on public holidays. The 6 percent loading paid to casual staff covers annual leave, not public holidays. If employers roster fewer staff to work on those days, that raises health and safety concerns for those left behind with more duties to perform. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI argue that most employers of this type would regard the salaries they pay as high enough to include allowances for public holiday work, but undoubtedly they will now face a new round of claims for an increase because of this bill. In fact, clauses 47A and 47B specify that new and existing employment agreements must include provisions relating to time and a half payment. There is no longer the freedom to choose, if people want to work on a public holiday for maybe a few extra dollars. No, that freedom is taken away. It must now include provisions relating to the payment of time and a half. I am sure that it will mean that employers will have to pay more in salaries, whether or not their employees work public holidays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E Then there are the changes to sickness and bereavement leave. I am very pleased to see that the select committee has changed a provision in the bill relating to the employer\u2019s right to seek proof of sickness, so that they now require evidence after 3 days of sick leave rather than 5. This was the biggest cause of concern expressed by 1,500 employers at a series of 30 briefings conducted by the Employers and Manufacturers Association (Northern) during April and May. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBut the bill also stops an employer from seeking proof of illness from somebody who regularly takes a Monday or a Friday off, and if we are honest, we could all say that most of us here would know people who have done that. Some members may have been naughty and done it themselves\u2014the old Friday off or Monday off trick, to get a long weekend, because that would be only 1 day of sick leave at a time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI still have concerns that the new entitlement for 3 days\u2019 separate bereavement leave may be treated as a minimum as well as a maximum by employees, and I note that employers are unable to require proof of entitlement. Some employers are predicting that the inclusion of cultural reasons as a justification for taking an additional day of bereavement leave could require some workplaces to shut down completely where a large proportion of the workers share a cultural or ethnic heritage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBut the biggest change to this bill at the select committee was the inclusion of the 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave to be introduced in 2007, rather than straight away as Matt Robson\u2019s bill proposed. As a consequence, the Robson bill was rejected by the select committee, by majority. It would be difficult for anyone trying to find out why the committee made this decision. The select committee report that rejects the Robson bill is a barely a page long. Yet the section in the report on the Holidays Bill that incorporates the new provision for 4 weeks\u2019 leave does not state the reasons this new entitlement should be included. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe question this raises is whether the inclusion of 4 weeks\u2019 leave was a decision made by the committee as a group or whether it was a case of Government members following orders. I will leave the listeners to figure out which it was, but it is a bit of a worry that all those people who made submissions on this matter, and the general public, get no justification for this decision. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe inclusion of 4 weeks\u2019 leave in this bill has made United Future\u2019s decision about whether to support it much more difficult. We voted against the Robson bill at its first reading, primarily because it would have imposed a large and immediate cost on business of something like 2 percent or $1 billion nationwide, to their wage bill. We voted for the first reading of the Holidays Bill, but at that time we put the onus on the Government to convince United Future and this Parliament that the new entitlements it proposed would not adversely impact on business in this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EWe do not think that the Government has adequately demonstrated how the other changes in the Holidays Bill will impact on employers, but we do recognise that by introducing 4 weeks\u2019 leave in 4 years\u2019 time, there may be sufficient time for business to adjust. It must be noted that according to the Employment Relations Service 24 percent of employees have more than 3 weeks\u2019 leave, so the size of this change cannot be underestimated. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAs the original family party, we do think that having more time to spend with loved ones is a good thing, but not if it is at the expense of the boss\u2019s ability to spend time with his family because he or she has to cover the extra time that his employees have off. This would almost certainly be the case if 4 weeks\u2019 leave were introduced straight away. We have to remember that the vast majority of employers in New Zealand run small operations with a handful of staff. So we are in the unusual position of voting against the second reading of this bill, yet we are supportive of the phasing in of 4 weeks\u2019 leave. However, it must be noted that this may not be without difficulties, as the economy may be in very different shape in 2007, and the implication of this bill would add considerable strain to the business climate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022 data-id=\u00227324ff4c76f245c09afbafb550fc074b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a705910-5320-43bf-aa82-027a761519f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227324ff4c76f245c09afbafb550fc074b\u0022\u003ERUSSELL FAIRBROTHER (Labour\u2014Napier):\u003C/span\u003E As someone who has employed staff for about 30 years in small businesses, I can say that it is not the number of weeks\u2019 holiday that increases performance; it is the atmosphere of the employment place. All employees deserve a decent holiday. The one regrettable thing about this bill is that it increases their statutory entitlement only to 31 days, and still leaves us 7 days behind the Australian statutory entitlement. There is no reason at all to oppose this bill, and there is every reason for all of us to support it. I support it wholeheartedly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u002271627158ec444146b57df19a25e99a9d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002271627158ec444146b57df19a25e99a9d\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E The Holidays Bill has been quite an important piece of legislation in the New Zealand business environment. We can see that by the number of submissions received on the bill\u2014some 4,163. A lot was hoped for with regard to this bill, which covers quite a complex area. Employers and employees alike demanded some help in understanding this law. Members will well understand, then, when I tell them that the people of New Zealand are feeling very disappointed, indeed. They have been nothing short of conned. There has been an absolute con job. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe people of New Zealand have been sold a pup by the Prime Minister of New Zealand. With the same sleight of hand that she used to sign that fake painting, she is signing this legislation into this Parliament. That is right, and the Labour members know it. This bill is a complete and utter con job. It is disgrace, and it is no wonder the Prime Minister is out of the country while this bill is being passed. She would be ashamed to be in the House; she would be ashamed to be sitting here. The Prime Minister went up and down the country in 2002. She went from business group to business group, from Wellington to Christchurch and Bluff, and right up to Auckland, Gisborne, and Napier. She went all around the country, and she said one thing. This is what she said. She looked people in the eye and said: \u201CUnder a Labour Government we won\u2019t be signing 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. You can put a ring around it. Don\u2019t worry about it. Mark my words. I am an honest Prime Minister.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227bfd72e37b4743259a5838c7bb0272a0\u0022\u003EHon member\u003C/span\u003E: You can\u2019t trust the system. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4b78f8054fe49caafb0b236b4259a34\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. You cannot trust the Prime Minister of New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223d491413748840999931ac4738eb75cf\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: And we won!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224859b58f633849f6be069ae04f78881d\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: Well, you might have won\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270fa4cbd-9380-4916-9f2a-78da059d220e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220412b76a1b2646218ff4c6b2d6c2c419\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (H V Ross Robertson)\u003C/span\u003E: Every time the member uses the expression \u201Cyou\u201D, the member is referring to the Chair. The member must refer to the Minister or to another member in the third person. I refer the member to Standing Order 104.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223b4683c463794f59bc0f298cef359215\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: But that is right. The junior Government whip cried out \u201CAnd we won!\u201D The Government has used its political position to con the people of New Zealand, by telling them one thing and delivering another. That is a little like Labour saying it would not be putting up taxes\u2014except that we have had 18 tax increases. Next week the good people of New Zealand have another one rocking down the road to greet them\u2014a 5c a litre or 10c a litre petrol tax\u2014but that is a different issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThis bill has been a great form of double-dealing and double-trading. The Prime Minister campaigned on the basis of not supporting 4 weeks\u2019 holiday, and told the business people of New Zealand she would not support 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. Despite the fact that Treasury wrote her reports telling her how bad 4 weeks\u2019 holiday would be for the country, she then went out and told the people of New Zealand it would cost only a mere $350 million. Yet the National Party, through an Official Information Act request that we sent to the Minister of Labour\u2019s office, discovered a piece of paper that, lo and behold, told us it would cost $800 million\u2014not $350 million, but $800 million. Not only will it cost $800 million but the very people who have supported this bill, as Matt Robson and others have claimed, are the very people that this Treasury report told us would pick up the tab for this mad idea. I can only say that the reality is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If the people of New Zealand are to be given another week\u2019s holiday\u2014in other words, bribed with their own money\u2014they will pay the price for that. That is right; they will pay the price. They will not get the pay rises they deserve. They will get an extra week\u2019s holiday\u2014bribed with their own money or someone else\u2019s money\u2014and they will pay the price. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe have a low level of unemployment in New Zealand at the moment. We can compare it with the rate in the countries that have been quoted in this Parliament this afternoon, and I would suggest that Government members go and look at what the unemployment rate is in some of those countries. They will see that in every single instance it is higher than the New Zealand rate. What we know is that when one has inflexible labour markets it is the lowest paid workers, the most inexperienced workers, and the young workers who miss out on jobs. I just say to members that if we had some of those people in this Parliament this afternoon and asked them whether they would rather have more money or another week\u2019s holiday, they would say time and time again that they want the job and they want the money. That is what they want: they want jobs and the opportunity to make money. I know that the Labour Party members are on one permanent holiday. They do it from womb to tomb, as they head towards the retirement village. Those members are on a permanent holiday, but that does not mean they have to apply their work ethic to the rest of the country. Some of us are out there trying to build a brighter and better New Zealand, and we will not do it with legislation like this. The bill is very, very disappointing indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to make specific reference to the people from the restaurant industry who came to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, and told us that if this provision for 4 weeks\u2019 holiday went through they would simply not be able to open on many of the public holidays, and they would simply not be able to open for the same periods of time. It will be a case of back to the future\u2014the good old days when tourists came to New Zealand and nothing was open. New Zealand was closed for business. That is what Matt Robson and the members who think along that line are destining the future of New Zealand to be. I prefer it the way we have it, whereby we can go out and enjoy ourselves, and people can make their own decisions about the holidays they want. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhile we are debating the issue of holidays with those Labour members, I just wonder what the low-paid workers who will be getting an extra week\u2019s holiday will do. They will not have the money to go jetting off to the Gold Coast, as I am sure other people in the community will do. They will sit at home in a very expensive situation, with their families in poverty and starving, and they will be robbed of the opportunity to have higher wages by the nanny State that would not know what is good for them if that hit it in the face. That is the reality of this legislation. What a sad day this is for the people of New Zealand. If 4 weeks\u2019 holiday is such a great idea, why are we all hanging around and waiting until 2007 to bring it in? Why do we not bring it in next week, if it is such a great idea? Why not? Because that would be another broken promise by the Prime Minister, who seems to make a habit of breaking promises. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to talk for a moment about the issue of sickness that is raised in the bill. Many of the submitters who came before the select committee told us that they demanded a medical certificate on very rare occasions, really\u2014on the odd time\u2014but they would like to do that, if they had the ability, when a pattern of behaviour was emerging. The provision that the period of sickness must be 3 days before a medical certificate can be required, which is now demanded in the bill, was rejected, by and large, by every employer. It is a retrograde step. What will happen is that people who are about to change jobs and leave their employment, and who may have collected 20 or 25 days of sick leave over their working time with their employer, will be taking every Friday, Monday, and Tuesday off ad infinitum, and there will be absolutely nothing that employers can do about that. That is not a positive step for people in New Zealand, and I am very, very disappointed about that, indeed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Holidays Bill, like the Labour Government, promised a lot and has delivered very, very little\u2014a complete sop to the unions. I am sure that Ross Wilson will be feeling very good about himself at the moment. I know that Matt Robson has the best of intentions, but really at the end of the day the hard-working New Zealanders who do not have enough money to buy Christmas presents, who do not have enough money to have a holiday, and who do not have enough money to put shoes on their children\u2019s feet will at least have an extra week\u2019s holiday in poverty. What a sad outcome that is for the people of New Zealand. Let us bring on a National Government in 2005, and we will deliver the real results that New Zealanders want. Members can put a ring around that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00224e723e6762a647f3ac1d30e013fb210f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e723e6762a647f3ac1d30e013fb210f\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Was that not a typical Tory response\u2014and from such a nice young man, too! It is the same kind of thing that people said about Samuel Parnell when he wanted to introduce the 8-hour day; about the Blackball miners who wanted a 30-minute crib and whose boss had 2 hours for lunch; and about the introduction of equal pay, pay equity, and fair accident compensation legislation. The end of the world was nigh! That was what those Tories over there said, and not a darn word of it came to pass. We should get on and pass this fair, modern, forward-looking bill, and be done with it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002237f2b8d5a4f941c19a2cacdd1736efd8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002237f2b8d5a4f941c19a2cacdd1736efd8\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I have not heard that member sound so animated before in this House. It did not make a lot of sense, but it was enjoyable. Having debated the redundancy payment bill last night, I thought that bill was garbage, but this bill is a real shocker. This is garbage on garbage, and Matt Robson should hang his head.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI have to admit I am a little bit confused about where Peter Brown was going with his speech. When I look at the New Zealand First minority report, I think the House would be confused about his speech. It states: \u201C\u2026 it has major concerns with this Holidays Bill. In a nutshell, New Zealand First believes it is flawed and so \u2018business unfriendly\u2019 that it will, in circumstances, be a disincentive to employ.\u201D Forgive me if I am wrong, but that sounds as if New Zealand First does not agree with the legislation. Maybe Mr Robson\u2019s powers of persuasion are such that Mr Brown rolled over at the last minute, but somehow I very much doubt it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThis anti-business, socialist claptrap just has to come to an end. How much flesh do we want from the good, hard-working people of this country? The business people of this country just cannot continue to take it. They are saying this nanny State mentality is killing business, and I totally agree with them. It is turning business people away in their droves. I gave an example when I spoke last night, and I will use it again. The people who came here from the multinational corporation Weyerhaeuser said this country was a good place to grow trees. Those guys turn over $22 billion a year, which is the sort of investment we want. But they said our compliance regime was such a huge turn-off that they were going to go away with their chequebook unopened. That is an absolute tragedy for this country. That is the type of nonsense this legislation will reinforce.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ESo everyone is now to get 4 weeks\u2019 holiday. How very generous! It is easy to spend someone else\u2019s money. It absolutely sickens me. Other than listen to its union buddies, who else did the Government consult? I bet it did not consult business, and I bet it did not consult employees. The Government just proclaimed that this measure would be good for them. This is the type of nanny State interference that is killing business in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EMost large businesses have trouble getting employees to take leave now. That is the great irony of this. They have trouble getting employees to take their leave entitlement now. Let us use the New Zealand Police as an example. The outstanding leave entitlement is absolutely crippling that organisation, and because of this nonsense its contingent liability has just gone through the roof.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWho will get hurt? Small business, which can least afford it, and employees themselves. Let us deal with small business first. The average small business in this country employs 5 employees. That means that, under this bill, for many months of the year it will have to carry an extra employee. Is it affordable? No. Do that lot over there care? No. Why? Because those members have never risked anything, built anything, or run anything in their lives. They just do not care, and they just do not have any sense of responsibility. Small businesses, and by that I mean mums and dads, will pay for this measure by having to work for longer. They will not be able to afford to bring in extra staff. They will just have to work for longer. The social impact\u2014and this is where Mr Robson should really be listening\u2014on the family and society are all too obvious to me, but that dim-witted lot over there just cannot get it. There will be marriage break-ups, more solo parents, more kids in crime. They will be the real cost, and that lot over there just do not care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EHow about the workers themselves? How will they pay? Four weeks\u2019 annual leave sounds nice if they want it, but in reality most do not. Employees will initially shoulder the cost, which is a whopping big $800 million, of which $708 million will be paid for through the private sector, but over the medium term staff will pay as employers expense it by freezing or reducing wage increases. What will employees get? Staff will get an extra week\u2019s holiday that they do not want, and less cash to pay the mortgage and the bills. That is a mean-spirited, dirty trick to play just on Christmas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI will go forward 2 or 3 years. I want members of the Government\u2014but they will not be part of the Government then\u2014to put their hands on their hearts and say they will be able to look at the kids of those families and say: \u201CYou can\u2019t have a Christmas present this year because the previous Government made sure your parents got an extra week\u2019s holiday that they didn\u2019t want, but gave them less cash.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E This Government knows that will be the outcome. Members should listen to the advice it got from Treasury\u2014the Government\u2019s own report, which, of course, it tried to disguise: \u201CWhile the initial cost of the extra week of leave falls on employers, over a period of a few years we expect that employers will offset these costs by passing them on to employees through lower wage increases.\u201D That is exactly the point I was making, and that crowd tried to cover it up. It is a real travesty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe immediate cost of labour will increase by 2 percent. We are already struggling to be competitive, but the legislation will build up compliance costs by another 2 percent. Those costs will fall more heavily on smaller employers, a large proportion of whose workers currently receive 3 weeks\u2019 annual leave. That is what that crowd is doing to the workers of this country. It is an absolute disgrace and members over there know it. They should be ashamed of themselves. The compliance regime that is built into business in this country at the moment is killing it; it is unaffordable. Instead of reinforcing this type of behaviour, Government members should have the courage to stand up and do the right thing\u2014rather than try to buy cheap votes, and rather than just sell out to the Progressive party so that they can maintain their coalition arrangements. That is not a legacy that I would be proud to leave to future generations of this country. Those members should hang their heads in shame, because this is something that this country will pay for, for ever and a day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThis legislation is just totally unnecessary. Workers did not ask for it. They do not want it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002283cff66471c34d678df15ffccdb721f8\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Are you going to scrap it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226955d4e9e3484849a0ac968e80572bed\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Who is that yelling out? Is that member making a guest appearance here? He is the guy who is driving compliance costs in this country through the roof. Now he has the temerity to ask a question that he would not have the guts to answer, because he does not know the answer. All he knows is that he wants to drive up costs\u2014nothing else. His answer is to pass all the costs on to the employer and to hell with the rest. I will now conclude.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229a9e01085c0140df9db83a6b7a0b2a43\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendments recommended by the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee by majority be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EQuestion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022c01cfed7743d4bf59f4d92c51baa9ceb\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Holidays Bill be now read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 43\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a second time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022634d15857346479cb6d89291752975f6\u0022\u003EMaori Fisheries Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022236c4fd1dfa847d7830bf024ae7f3720\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00226bf2c618b37243a1b4632d61b8a86650\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bf2c618b37243a1b4632d61b8a86650\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs): \u003C/span\u003EKi a koe te Kaiwhakahaere o te Whare nei, e tika ake an\u014D i runga an\u014D o te t\u016B nei ki te mihi an\u014D i a koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koe. N\u0101 te mea e m\u014Dhio anake an\u014D t\u0101tou te t\u014D roa noa iho o te tae ake o te tuhinga nei, o te pire nei ki roto iI te Whare nei, e mihi kau ana ki a r\u0101tou k\u0101re i konei. Ka mihi an\u014D hoki ki a r\u0101tou ng\u0101 kaiwhakahaere o te k\u014Dmihana, e mau kaha ake an\u014D m\u014D t\u0113nei tino kaupapa, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou.  \t\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[An interpretation in English was given to the House.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[To you the Speaker of this House, it is apt indeed that I extend greetings to you as I rise to speak. Greetings to you. Because we know how long it has taken for this document, this bill, to arrive in this House, I acknowledge those who are not present and those of the commission as well, who worked tirelessly on this matter of such significance. Greetings to you.] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EK\u012B ake an\u014D ki te mihi ake an\u014D ki \u014Dku hoa mahi i konei o te K\u0101wana me koutou ng\u0101 kanohi M\u0101ori. T\u014D t\u0101tau pakeke e Winitana, koutou katoa mihi ake an\u014D i a koe, t\u0113n\u0101 koe.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E[I acknowledge my Government colleagues and those M\u0101ori members once again. To all of you, and indeed to you Winston, our elder statesman, thank you.]   \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI move, That the Maori Fisheries Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be considered by a committee to be established. The bill will give effect to the agreed model for allocating M\u0101ori fisheries settlement assets, as proposed by the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission in its report He Kawai Amokura. It is cause for celebration that this bill is finally before the House. It is the culmination of more than 10 years of discussion and debate amongst M\u0101ori. Its passage will begin a new era of M\u0101ori participation in the fishing industry, enabling the beneficiaries of the 1992 fisheries settlement to receive the assets and use them for the economic and social benefit of M\u0101ori. This is a settlement worth more than $700 million dollars\u2014more than all the other treaty settlements combined. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn 1986 the introduction of the quota management system for fisheries prompted a number of claims to the Waitangi Tribunal and the High Court from M\u0101ori. Three years later, in an interim settlement, the Crown agreed to transfer to M\u0101ori 10 percent of the existing quota, and the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission was established to promote M\u0101ori involvement in the business and activity of fishing. I commend the commission for the efforts it put into that. The commission was charged with managing the quota while it developed the method of allocating the settlement assets to iwi. The final M\u0101ori fisheries settlement was agreed, following the Ng\u0101i Tahu sea fisheries report from the Waitangi Tribunal, and it was signed on 23 September 1992. The settlement provided M\u0101ori with $150 million to purchase 50 percent of Sealord Products Ltd, and the Crown undertook to transfer to M\u0101ori 20 percent of the quota of all new species brought into the quota management system. As part of this celebration it is important to note how well the commission has brought that forward and increased it, and developed the regulations to manage customary non-commercial fishing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission was reconstituted as the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission and charged with developing proposals for a new M\u0101ori Fisheries Act, including a procedure to identify beneficiaries and allocate the benefits of the settlement. By 1998 the commission had developed the model for the allocation of the interim settlement assets, but a High Court order prevented it from reporting that model to the Minister of Fisheries. In due course the commission concluded that only a combined allocation proposal, dealing with both the interim and the final settlement assets, would secure enough support from iwi to proceed. The commission presented the Minister of Fisheries with its report He Kawai Amokura\u2014its proposed model for the allocation of all fisheries settlement assets\u2014on 9 May 2003. The commission has been candid in acknowledging that the model reflects some carefully balanced compromises needed to achieve a high level of agreement and support amongst iwi. The Government formally accepted the proposal in June, being satisfied that it is fundamentally sound and provides a just and workable framework for the future. When considering the details of the proposal, Cabinet noted that the process to sell inshore settlement quota that is proposed by the commission and contained in the bill would preclude the sale of packages of mixed quota, thus potentially reducing the value of the sale to vendors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill is divided into seven parts, and includes eight schedules. Part 1 contains the preliminary provisions covering commencement, interpretation, and key concepts\u2014including the classification of quota, the process to determine and register coastline entitlements, the functions and powers of mandated iwi organisations, and the criteria for their recognition. Part 2 provides for the establishment and review of a series of new entities. Te Ohu Kai Moana is a trust that will replace the commission and carry forward the allocation of settlement assets and other aspects of the scheme. Te Kawai Taumata is an electoral college created to appoint directors to the corporate trustee of Te Ohu Kai Moana. Te Kawai Taumata will have 11 members. One will be appointed by each of 10 iwi regional groupings, and one will be appointed by a group of representatives of M\u0101ori organisations. Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd is a commercial company that will manage the settlement assets associated with a number of companies currently owned by the commission. It will have separate income and voting shares. All voting shares and 20 percent of the income shares are to be held in trust for iwi. The remaining 80 percent of income shares are to be distributed to mandated iwi organisations, on the basis of their iwi population. Te Putea Whakatupu Trust is a trust to provide funding to M\u0101ori for education, training, and research, including that in relation to M\u0101ori involvement in the business and activity of fishing and fisheries. Te Wai M\u0101ori Trust is a trust to assist with the development of M\u0101ori interest in freshwater fisheries. The commission has recognised that an organisation\u2019s structures and processes that are appropriate for today may require changes to meet the evolving requirements of iwi and M\u0101ori in the future. Consequently, Part 2 also provides for reviews of the performance of the groups that I have named. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EPart 3 provides for the allocation and transfer of settlement assets by Te Ohu Kai Moana. All settlement quota will be transferred to iwi, once the iwi has a mandated iwi organisation. The amount each iwi will receive is calculated on the basis of population, coastline length, and the scheme for classification of quota. Settlement money will be used to provide the capital reserve for Te Ohu Kai Moana, Te Putea Whakatupu Trust, and Te Wai M\u0101ori Trust, to fund the transitional functions of Te Ohu Kai Moana, and to make payments to iwi in specific circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EPart 4 provides for restrictions on the sale and exchange of settlement quota. Mandated iwi organisations can sell settlement quota only to other mandated iwi organisations or to Te Ohu Kai Moana. For inshore quota, a right of first refusal must be offered to buyers of coastline entitlements for the fish stock. Part 5 provides for dispute resolution processes to deal with disputes within and among iwi, and between iwi and Te Ohu Kai Moana trustees. In respect of matters relating to certain decisions made under the bill, disputes may be referred to the trustee for a determination or to the M\u0101ori Land Court if the trustee is a party or is unable to resolve the dispute. Part 6 provides for transitional and miscellaneous provisions, repeals, and amendments. Part 7 amends Te Ture Whenua Maori Act to reflect the M\u0101ori Land Court\u2019s new role in dispute resolution. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill provides for the allocation of approximately half the settlement assets directly to iwi, and for the remaining assets, mostly company shares, to be centrally managed on behalf of iwi. The model requires the establishment of a series of new entities. The bill has the support of the Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission, and I want to commend it. The commission has an important role now to manage the transition towards the future needs of M\u0101ori, both in the sense of structure and in the sense of the usage of the benefits for the M\u0101ori people. Perhaps inevitably, the allocation model does not command universal support amongst M\u0101ori. Nevertheless, more than 90 percent of iwi agreed that the model should be presented to the Government. Parliament now has the opportunity to bring the 1992 deed of settlement to a conclusion, and to usher in a new era of opportunity for M\u0101ori in the fishing and seafood industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EI a koutou an\u014D o te k\u014Dmihana, te tiamana, koutou katoa, e mihi kau ana ki a koutou. To my colleague Minister Hodgson, who is not here today, I commend him for his effort and tenacity, and certainly I thank my colleagues in Parliament for the support they will bring to this great turn in history for M\u0101ori.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022 data-id=\u0022f96bd6a6318f4720875200f8c06d56ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f96bd6a6318f4720875200f8c06d56ce\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU (National):\u003C/span\u003E E mihi ana au ki a r\u0101tou katoa i \u0101whina i t\u0113nei kaupapa mai i te t\u012Bmata ki t\u0113nei w\u0101 h\u014Dhonu. Ng\u0101 roimata ki a r\u0101tou e kore e kitea i t\u0113nei w\u0101, \u0101, ki a t\u0101tou te hunga ora, huri noa t\u0113n\u0101 t\u0101tou katoa. From the time of the beginning of this process, to this very important time, the present, one cannot forget those who have helped to deliver this taonga, those who have gone before, and those of today, and I would like to pay tribute to them all.   \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI am very pleased to stand to the first reading of the Maori Fisheries Bill. The introduction of this bill represents, in my view, a significant milestone in the treaty settlement process, and, in particular, in the process of clarifying M\u0101ori entitlements to fisheries, resources, and assets under the Treaty of Waitangi, and of effecting a transfer of those assets into the hands of iwi and M\u0101ori. The Maori Fisheries Bill is designed to effect that transfer. Its source is the deed of settlement of 1992, which was preceded by the Maori Fisheries Act of 1989. Its purpose is to implement the agreements in the deed of settlement and provide for the development of iwi interests in fishing and fisheries, in order to benefit all M\u0101ori. The bill establishes a framework for half of the settlement assets to be allocated directly to iwi, and for the remainder to be managed centrally on behalf of iwi and M\u0101ori. It provides directions to establish new entities and rules to govern and guide the distribution of settlement assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EThe Minister has referred in some detail to the provisions of the bill. I would like to remind members of some of the background and history of the bill, and also to comment about the position of M\u0101ori in the sector today. In my view, the overriding objective for Parliament\u2014given the 11 years of litigation, dispute, compromise, consultation, and debate among M\u0101ori\u2014should now be to make sure that this bill reflects the agreements of the 1992 deed of settlement and the underlying aspirations of those who negotiated that deed. Clearly, the underlying aspirations were that the M\u0101ori beneficiaries would be able to establish for themselves a firm and significant stake in the sector, and create both wealth and opportunity for their own communities, and for M\u0101ori. From that point of view, this bill represents an economic plank of which we should all be supportive. The bill represents economic prosperity, not just for M\u0101ori, but also for New Zealand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EWe should remind ourselves that M\u0101ori now have influence over in excess of 40 percent of the commercial fishery. They are represented through all sectors of an industry that has a global reach. The Sealord\u2019s company, which is the M\u0101ori flagship of this asset, has an influence throughout the world, and, I understand, is respected both for its professionalism and the quality of the business acumen it has displayed. This represents a major go-forward economic plank, and from that point of view National is very pleased to support the bill to the select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244412f348dcb4195b33eb2236ae70f77\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204007c9a66e945808355fbd0f81a927d\u0022\u003EHon GEORGINA TE HEUHEU\u003C/span\u003E: That is a good question. Which select committee? As someone has raised the question, I want to comment on that. This bill is about a M\u0101ori asset. It represents years of work by the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission to get broad agreement from M\u0101ori stakeholders about a model of allocation that will hopefully see the asset grow and be nurtured in a way that will make those who were responsible for kicking this process off in the first place proud of what has happened. I would have thought that as it is a M\u0101ori asset, as it is for the benefit of M\u0101ori, and as it represents agreements reached by M\u0101ori, that it ought to have gone to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, so I raise the issue about a special committee having been set up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI understand that the Government has been looking at this issue in the context of foreshore and seabed, and marine farming and aquaculture matters, but those two issues do not really bear any resemblance to this one. This represents agreements\u2014albeit sometimes begrudgingly given by some\u2014among M\u0101ori, and the other two issues are of interest to all New Zealanders. I am glad someone asked that question, because I think that point has to be made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI personally do not understand why the bill had to go to a special select committee. However, among other things, this bill makes provision for those iwi entities that will receive the assets. In the select committee, I will be interested to look in some detail at those provisions. I will be keen to pay particular attention to the governance requirements. We are told by the M\u0101ori Fisheries Commission that issues of transparency, accountability, and constitutional propriety will be foremost in the minds of the commission before assets are transferred. I think that is in the sense that this is a treaty-based package and asset, and that the obligation of its future managers will be to ensure that the benefits accrue not just to this generation, but are there for future generations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003E It is important that the commission pay due regard to the new entities, because we would all want to make sure that 17 years after the fisheries claim was first kicked off in Te Hapua, up in the Far North, the iwi governance entities are in a sound position to receive and manage the assets that are transferred. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EI would imagine that this bill has now reached the House because even though there is residual disagreement on some points\u2014which might be quite strong, as evidenced by the fact that there were actions in the High Court in Auckland just last week\u2014somehow the commission has finally managed to reach broad agreement with all the stakeholders that this legislation should come to Parliament. I would like to think that parliamentarians are keeping their eyes on the big picture, and are thinking about what this legislation represents if it is implemented in the way envisaged in the bill. They need to understand that if M\u0101ori have agreed to the bill being introduced, they, as much as anyone, have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and understand the latent economic potential that resides within the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220bd5aa67-2f2b-4a13-a2b4-21a392396f11\u0022\u003EDespite the misgivings of various interests\u2014which they are entitled to bring before the select committee, and which we will no doubt hear quite a lot of during the committee process\u2014it would, in my view, be a disappointment if somewhat of a group of parliamentarians tried to second-guess the work that has gone into this allocation model. The last thing any of us want to see\u2014and the last thing New Zealanders want to see\u2014is more dispute and litigation. We cannot have that. That asset has to transfer to its beneficiaries. The beneficiaries are iwi\u2014M\u0101ori\u2014out there in their communities. They are entitled to receive those assets. As I say, I will be putting the bill under some scrutiny but, ultimately, this is an economic opportunity that must move forward. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228e93c3d609d94f78bebdb0f07da97b77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228e93c3d609d94f78bebdb0f07da97b77\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E The Government\u2019s handling of the M\u0101ori and the general fisheries area in this country is an utter and total mess. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002245b1106387eb4869a9768b8d62576a09\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220085ef0903f6438d8818fb7dc4bcce0d\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: The first person to complain about that is Mr Swain. That is typical, because he knows nothing about it, whatsoever. I ask him where the framework for the oceans policy is, after 2 years of unmitigated delay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dba5993c4004953bc2d8b32bcfaf959\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Where is it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1a26332c06f4839892cec54818ec69e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Where is it? He is the first to shoot his mouth off, but he cannot answer the question. Where is the framework for the oceans policy in this country? Where, for example, is the resolution of aquaculture management in this country? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221112404ee14a4adca00d96c7a528c616\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Good progress is being made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293dda101b73149b7afd66e9d74f06800\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: He says that good progress is being made. We have a moratorium that is now to be delayed at least until 31 December 2004. In the meanwhile, all sorts of groups\u2014European and M\u0101ori\u2014have their investments languishing and all their programmes on hold because the Government cannot resolve a critical issue of this country\u2019s resource management. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ERegions and industry are unable to proceed. I ask the member where the Marine Reserves Bill is. That is three in a row. The Marine Reserves Bill is probably delayed until the end of 2004. That is a mess, and into that mess the Government throws this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003ESome of us at least had the presence of mind, back in October 1992, to say that this issue would be the biggest area of legal contention with M\u0101ori, and over 11 years that is precisely what it has been. In fact, I can recall\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7acbf7f119a4c78afe0306451659e68\u0022\u003EHon Tariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: Move on.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ae6922aecd984b4bb63714ec33167cc0\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Tariana Turia says to move on. I will be moving on to her very shortly. I can recall being expelled from the National Party caucus the day after I was the only member of Parliament to oppose that deal. I was expelled on 2 October 1992, and I have moved on. There is nothing so sterile or antiseptic as the phrase \u201CI told you so.\u201D, but I did\u2014and I paid a big price for that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EWe need to remember that the Government\u2019s claim in respect of iwi support needs to be revisited. It says that Ng\u0101puhi supports this bill. What about Ng\u0101ti Hine, the biggest hap\u016B? It has about 45,000 members, and they do not support this bill. What about Ng\u0101ti Porou? What about Ng\u0101i Tahu, that huge landed tribe? What do they say? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc82cea8-c84d-4ab7-8597-31916dbedc43\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226fc0b38dcb3f4d358e89404d1064c378\u0022\u003EEdwin Perry\u003C/span\u003E: What about Ng\u0101tiwai?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d51f88b054dd4860a57ad541b650646f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I will get to Ng\u0101tiwai shortly. I pick up the bill and I see that the resource will be distributed on the basis of population. How is that fair to Ng\u0101i Tahu? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da7919cc3a1940afa59c907aac9b408f\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Treaty property rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e43352537cd4418db07f093558e44e86\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is amazing, is it not? When the Government says that the bill has the support of M\u0101oridom, I ask whether it does. Is it not a fact that one of the reasons the M\u0101ori people wish this bill to go to a select committee is so that the model can be revisited? Those are all facts. It is no use for Government members to say they are doing something about it when, after 4\u00BD years, we have an utter and total mess and delay across the whole fisheries scene, and the M\u0101ori people are no better off. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EMr Horomia said: \u201CI am going to refer it\u201D\u2014that is, the bill\u2014\u201Cto a select committee yet to be formed.\u201D I ask the M\u0101ori members over there in the Labour Party whether this bill will be going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, because that committee is formed, and has been for decades. Is the bill going to that committee\u2014yes, or no? I want to hear the answer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c2dfe169-d946-4f87-8d43-0bcdb7d8bebc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002282f47981aa6f4335ac04e203c9cb594c\u0022\u003EHon Tariana Turia\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6e58f057dad499b831c66e7f9cd7fa5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no. They do not trust their members. They do not trust those M\u0101ori members. So, here we go. We do not have the \u201Cmagnificent seven\u201D in the seven M\u0101ori seats; no, we have seven vertically challenged followers of Snow White\u2014or, at least, her ugly sisters. Here we go\u2014\u201CIt\u2019s taihoa, taihoa, off to some other select committee we must go.\u201D When are those M\u0101ori members going to stand up for their honour, their mana, and the integrity of their people? How long can they go on being doormats to people like Helen Clark, Cullen, and Swain? Have they got a M\u0101ori member chairing this committee?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022192400e7bb7f4a769b9c3125aa6b85f2\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243b8a14ac21447ce97397be816c130ae\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no; they cannot have a M\u0101ori member from the M\u0101ori seats chairing a select committee! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224269883cd90f42288c5ffd8377fc7089\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Don\u2019t trust them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247b83004e8e04df88c7824091c3b512c\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E:They do not trust them\u2014precisely! No, they will have Mr Fairbrother from Napier. This man is so steeped in M\u0101oridom, M\u0101ori history, and M\u0101ori anthropology that in a court case he said the reason why a M\u0101ori was offending was that he had been colonised. The Treaty of Waitangi was not being honoured, and that was his defence. Here is this man, Russell Fairbrother, who knows nothing about M\u0101ori whatsoever, and he is to chair the committee on M\u0101ori fishing assets. How do members like that for an insult? I tell members not to talk to me about tino rangatiratanga and all of those beloved lofty statements they make out there on the marae where they are real lions, but in the caucus\u2014lambs, utter lambs. Helen Clark and Cullen stomp all over them, and they do not care what it means as the image of representation for M\u0101oridom. Can members imagine Ngata putting up with this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e35602a6b65b42949fd226edc7beeb44\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: No way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594d311bd8a941d7aa4fb38815eaa5c5\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can members imagine Bill Gudgeon putting up with this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215d9359a16a5497ea7c005d76269c815\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: No way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228abb38651cc24aa589dc8ae606523481\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Can members imagine Pita Paraone putting up with this? Can we imagine Ron Mark, Edwin Perry, or, for that matter, my brother and I putting up with this?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e877482c4be2411cbcbd20a394befdb9\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: No way!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257e0c877ba624f179657fb878013e7dd\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: There are seven M\u0101ori members in seven M\u0101ori seats, which those in Government say they must retain because they are \u201Cthe voice of M\u0101oridom\u201D. It is that peculiar, special voice\u2014unparalleled and unique in Parliament. The only problem is: I cannot hear it. I cannot hear a syllable or a sound, a mutter or a murmur. It is absolutely mute\u2014silenced. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EI think that when young M\u0101ori look at this Parliament they will wonder why we need those seats. They never asked that question in the time of Ngata, Pomare, and Buck, or in our time, but they are asking it every day now because they cannot hear the voice. Worse still, in their name, those seven M\u0101ori members are subjugating them to absolute insults. Why will this bill not go to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee? Because the Government does not trust its members. Why is the chairman of the committee not to be a M\u0101ori member? Because the Government does not trust its members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002248966880e9ef4bfa9a3bef1a9ab3ac98\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, Mahara.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221d418cab289a4483abb0c3ca5904cf05\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes\u2014\u201CSorry, Mahara. You are a good man but we don\u2019t want you chairing this committee.\u201D But he chairs the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee now. Why does the Government not trust the member for southern M\u0101ori? He is an honest sort of guy. Why will it not trust him? What is it about Fairbrother that tells us he knows more about M\u0101ori fisheries and M\u0101ori matters than the honourable member for southern M\u0101ori? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002230384eed72914172b231eae183ff59b1\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: He does what Helen wants him to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022466f38b49a944bc790ba73756a9e1ece\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Is that what it is\u2014because Fairbrother does what Helen wants him to do? The member is right, except that my question is: why are those seven M\u0101ori members allowing this to happen to them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b293407ab1e4ec9942c88b7be7fa041\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s the sycophant? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216b4a72aa6914ea3a25041962508dad3\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: That is what it brings to mind\u2014sycophancy. There is a better phrase for it, but I cannot use it. It starts with a \u201Cb\u201D and ends with \u201Cnosing\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fca53c1894c04e188e93569a7ffe0973\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If the member is referring to other members, he must refer to them by their correct names. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd9c5c26ff9b435d8a5f1b579ad51f1f\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I will. What did I say wrong? Is it honourable sycophants?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a102dada39e44105ab330dd0a1237b71\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271e540b4755c428ba655219511dc19b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I stand, withdraw, and apologise. Here is another great defender of the M\u0101ori people, eh? Apparently, I am insulting someone. The insults are coming from that party over there, in this bill. When Labour says it will not trust the seven M\u0101ori members in Parliament, that is the insult. I ask whether that party would be asked to get up and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022ce8ebe6e430a42db8d4eb4253bee37ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ce8ebe6e430a42db8d4eb4253bee37ee\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens want to see the fisheries assets that were taken in breach of the treaty returned to their rightful owners. To that extent, we are pleased to see this long process come to some kind of resolution\u2014as uneasy a resolution as it is. But the bill does not meet the criteria the Greens consider to be ethical, either in equity of distribution or in giving sufficient authority to iwi and hap\u016B. There remain a number of serious unresolved issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe introduction of the Maori Fisheries Bill into Parliament brings an opportunity to critique and scrutinise the provisions in the bill, and to present issues that reflect Green considerations over this\u2014an early treaty settlement. Our concerns include the strongly corporate framework in the settlement structures, asset distribution that is not sufficiently beneficial to iwi and hap\u016B, and the marginalisation of tikanga in deference to corporate models of management. I want to outline some of our concerns. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe agree that the quantum for, and restrictions on, the use of Te Putea Whakatupu Trust do not offer urban M\u0101ori the level of support and benefit they are entitled to. The High Court has very recently acknowledged that the Government and the Minister of Fisheries are not fulfilling the obligations of the Crown to accord fair treatment to all persons who have rights and interests extinguished by the settlement. The court also noted that iwi benefits will not reach those whom the iwi does not know, and that iwi mechanisms will not be able to deliver the benefits of the settlement sufficiently, such that the p\u016Btea will suffice to cover those gaps. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E This leaves unresolved the serious questions of the fragmentation of iwi produced through the alienation of our land base. We do not agree that the centralisation of 50 percent of the total asset holdings in a new company, Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd, is the best way to protect the fisheries assets. Te Ohu Kai Moana believes that this is the right thing to do, because M\u0101ori do not necessarily have the capacity to hold their assets long term. It argues that central management of this proportion of the assets is essential for the retention and protection of the assets for use by future generations. But iwi argue that the assets are their property, which they are entitled to control as they see fit. Many do not want to see half of their assets held and controlled by someone else. That is what this settlement was supposed to stop. We agree that this structure undermines the rangatiratanga of iwi and hap\u016B to manage their assets and interests in commercial fisheries. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ESome have argued that the centralisation of assets will help develop the industry as a collective, rather than numbers of smaller competing companies. But in fact it is the imposition of a competitive model that establishes that risk of competition, which is then used against the rangatiratanga of iwi and hap\u016B as collective communities, not as corporate entities. We are concerned that Te Ohu Kai Moana Ltd, the new group, will exclusively control Aotearoa Fisheries, as Te Ohu Kai Moana will retain all the voting shares over that company. It will also retain all the income shares until it accepts a mandated iwi structure, which will then take on its share. This means that iwi will at some other unspecified time in the future receive only income shares, and have no direct authority over the company that manages half their assets. This centralisation looks very much like a means by which those who have controlled these assets for some time will be able to maintain their control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003ETe Ohu Kai Moana argue that if iwi had the voting shares, they would exercise that vote in their own interests to the detriment of the whole. In my view, that is a sick argument. It says that M\u0101ori are incompetent, incapable, and have no capacity to think of anything but their own self-interest, and that is unacceptable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIt appears that Te Ohu Kai Moana is not subject to the same rigorous levels of accountability and governance controls that iwi organisations will be subjected to. Iwi governance entities have to meet a set of stringent conditions imposed by this outside agency before they are entitled to receive the property that they lost due to breaches of the treaty. But these provisions force iwi into corporate models of management that best fit the current economic theory, not the needs of iwi or hap\u016B. This is the imposition of the corporate over the community, along the same lines as that imposed by the Office of Treaty Settlements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe question the synergy between governance structures to be established for the fisheries allocation and the direct negotiations. Will iwi have to turn themselves into structural pretzels to meet all the various requirements of the bodies that hold their property and refuse to hand it over? Given the difficulty iwi have had with the Office of Treaty Settlements over the mandating of governance entities, I entirely understand the very real fear of iwi that, once again, their rangatiratanga will come second to imposed processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens are very concerned that this allocation process entrenches existing power disparities between different iwi participating in this industry, and that those disparities will mean that the smaller players\u2014iwi, hap\u016B, and wh\u0101nau\u2014will not benefit from their fisheries assets in the long term. The mandated governance structures are an example of a very real barrier for smaller or poorer iwi. They will struggle to meet the requirements of the bill; they have no control over their assets, which are held by Aotearoa Fisheries Ltd; and then they will have to try to compete in a market already dominated by long-term, established iwi players. Some of those long-time players have been significant and, it has been strongly argued, unjustifiably significant beneficiaries of the previous release rounds, which are reportedly worth $230 million in total. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EIf the process picks winners and losers, and entrenches their positions, there is no justice here. Even if we factor in the review of Te Ohu Kai Moana in 12 years\u2019 time, the high vote threshold for making any changes to the structure of that organisation means that those smaller players will not be able to make the changes necessary to ensure some equity for them. Even the review process protects the status quo, where the status quo benefits the stronger groupings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe select committee that will eventually consider this bill will be under some intense pressure to both change this bill and to retain it in its current form. The Greens want to make sure that there is a rigorous testing of this bill against principles of fairness, justice, and equity, as well as economic considerations. There are some major flaws underlying the structure of this allocation process that date back to the original inception of the settlement, and we acknowledge that we will not be able to fix all of those problems. But having said that, we do not believe for a minute that the bill could not be altered to be fairer and to better reflect M\u0101ori community aspirations rather than corporate ones, because, despite some views to the contrary, those are not the same thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022 data-id=\u002297e090e393d249f89b9b74f94728826c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297e090e393d249f89b9b74f94728826c\u0022\u003EBILL GUDGEON (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E To quote from the explanatory note of the bill: \u201CThe report, He Kawai Amokura, was delivered to the Minister on 9 May 2003 and accepted by the Minister on 7 June 2003. \u2026 The purpose of the Bill is to implement the agreements made in the Deed of Settlement and to provide for the development of iwi interests in fisheries and fishing\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EIn recent times important issues such as the Ng\u0101ti Ruanui land claims and the claim in process with Ng\u0101ti Tama have been within the jurisdiction of the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, which has been very competent in the handling of those issues. The Maori Fisheries Bill is within the bounds of the Crown and M\u0101oridom\u2014just as land issues have been\u2014and now the Government wants to form another committee, when there is already one in place. Why is that? The M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is already in place and ready to go. New Zealand First does not support the bill going to an ad hoc committee, as we have heard previously from our leader, Winston Peters, but supports this bill going to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee. I feel that select committee is competent enough to handle the affairs of M\u0101ori. When issues such as tikanga come before the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee and we have to go on to the marae to explain the issues to the people, the select committee is familiar with them. I would say all those who are on that select committee are familiar with te reo and with the tikanga of all iwi and hap\u016B throughout the nation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003E So why is this ad hoc committee to be formed? As Mr Peters said, a chairperson may be appointed\u2014I say may be, but I hope not\u2014to direct issues that he or she is not familiar with. The meeting of that select committee could be like Cinderella: the shoes will be picked up later on, and then we will find out whom the owners are. Is that what is going to happen with regard to the fisheries and the M\u0101ori people, when someone else has been allocated the amount that they are entitled to? We have enough problems amongst M\u0101oridom as it is, and we need to get these issues straight. I wonder what the Privy Council would say about this issue, if it were taken to the Privy Council\u2014or will that just happen in the building that is to be refurbished in another couple of years\u2019 time? And who will pull the strings? The ones pulling the strings will say \u201CJump\u201D, and the answer will be \u201CHow high?\u201D. How high are they going to jump? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fce185df-f325-4a5a-a850-52fb6b2b918d\u0022\u003EThe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is in place now, and New Zealand First supports the move to bring this bill before that committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022 data-id=\u0022208fb2cda94e4e33ae048ece98e701b1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022208fb2cda94e4e33ae048ece98e701b1\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of the ACT party to advise the House that the ACT party will vote against the Maori Fisheries Bill. I say to the two old parties that they should think very carefully about whether they ratify this proposal, because it contains within it many further injustices. I say to the National Party that just because it put forward a bill\u2014and Mr Peters is right\u2014in 1992, that is not a reason for it to continue to support it. If one looks at the Hansard record, one sees it is true that Mr Peters voted against that bill. I was a member of the Labour Party then; I was not allowed to vote against it. But if members read my speech they will see that I predicted that the allocation model would lead to a huge legal battle. Anyone who is a lawyer could see\u2014and Mr Peters and I could see\u2014that what the Government of the day did was to say it was handing over an allocation of fish to M\u0101ori, without giving them any advice as to how it was to be apportioned, and was then asking them to settle that amongst themselves. People criticise M\u0101ori for taking such an amount of time to do that, but I say there would have been problems if we took any group of New Zealanders and said there was $700 million worth of assets, that we did not know who owned them, and that those people should sort that out amongst themselves. It is a miracle that M\u0101ori have come up with any sort of agreement, at all. But just because that is a miracle it is no reason for us then to say that the quota allocation model is so fragile that we should rubber-stamp it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe first thing I want to say for the record and to those who are appointed to the new committee\u2014and I note that the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee is not being trusted by the Government to consider the bill\u2014is that this is not a Treaty of Waitangi settlement. I have consulted the Clerk, and the advice that the Crown is trying to put around that this bill cannot be amended by the select committee is not right. This is a bill that a select committee is able to look at, in order to see whether it is just. When we look at the bill, we can see immediately that it is not just. Members do not have to take my word for that. We have had an opinion from a High Court Judge, Mr Justice McGechan, and he has already pointed out that there are some very, very odd things in the formula. The whole formula is pretty odd, but one of the odd things relates to the coastline. The more coastline that an iwi has, the more quota it gets. However, the Kaipara Harbour, which is the largest harbour in the Southern Hemisphere\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287deeaa18d2040ada718fb29b8782b75\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: The second-largest in the world.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e7cdb80b1e34024a857709e2242ed39\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the local member. And, of course, the Kaipara Harbour is a very good fishing area, because there are maraes all around it. Is that coastline counted? No. Who made that decision? It would not help Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan\u2019s tribe, would it? Then, if we look at the coastal spit off Nelson\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022959e4ce03b0b42d390449e2b84047c92\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Farewell Spit.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f9abe10263d543af8a06a0f6e597f6c5\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: Is Farewell Spit counted? Yes, right up one side and down the other, for another 52 kilometres. Which tribe happens to benefit from that? I believe that members of Parliament are entitled to look at those things, even if the local M\u0101ori members did not think they were worth looking at. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI was the Minister who first started this whole thing off.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d5db9d6144d495588d30ad57b6b5a27\u0022\u003EHon Parekura Horomia\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b42e161984419e911d227b19cbb11c\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. David Lange passed the issue over to me, and the offer I made was more generous than this one. I said that if any M\u0101ori wished to go fishing, the Crown would find quota for him or her right up to 50 percent of the total allocation. Of course, \u201CSir Tipene and Co.\u201D was not in favour of that, because it did not want to go fishing. It did not want to work. Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan made it quite clear that he just wanted to be a landlord, and to take the rent. He saw the quota allocation as a sort of cargo cult. I still think that is wrong. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EThe ACT party is in favour of a property settlement. We are in favour of this House honouring the treaty, and of fisheries being owned by M\u0101ori. If we do that, of course, we then have to look at the fisheries that M\u0101ori had in 1840\u2014where M\u0101ori were likely to have been fishing\u2014and at the technology they had available to them. Does this bill do that? No, it does not. We find that under this bill, anything from above a depth of 300 metres is deemed to be a coastal fishery. That means that we have fisheries areas going into the sub-Antarctic being described as the local fisheries of Ng\u0101i Tahu. There is no way whatsoever that in 1840 Ng\u0101i Tahu fished them. In that sense, this model is not an honouring of the treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EBut there are further principles that apply. This model does not give fisheries to the M\u0101ori hap\u016B and iwi that had them. This is a racial settlement; it is race-based. It says that if one happens to be M\u0101ori, one is entitled to a certain percentage of the fisheries allocation because of one\u2019s race.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d2a3c2e7c224da4adf794f2800ae863\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Race-based welfare.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef0b3b13836e4f708ae6e4930c259b90\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: I call it \u201Ccargo-cultism\u201D. So there are iwi that have no coastal area being granted quota, but then there is a further requirement. Some M\u0101ori members want to represent urban M\u0101ori, and they have had them put in on a racial basis. I say this to Mr Tamihere: if that is the proper criterion, and if that is the right way to do it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9e7d4a2044d4e7c951531d20c3e5c14\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Mailbox tribes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227890ab993aec41ceae2b61206de4aec6\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE\u003C/span\u003E: The member calls them mailbox tribes. Justice McGechan pointed out that if that is the basis on which those members are doing the allocation, then urban M\u0101ori are not being treated fairly. He is basically saying that if the Government is going to use a population basis, then every M\u0101ori in New Zealand should be treated fairly, and that it is illogical to treat urban M\u0101ori differently from others. I ask Mr Tamihere this: if the judge thinks that is unjust, then why is Mr Tamihere supporting it? Perhaps he did not hear me. If a High Court judge, as recently as last Friday, when making a decision before Parliament considered this bill , says that the bill is unjust to urban M\u0101ori, why is Mr Tamihere, as a Minister and as the local member who says he champions urban M\u0101ori, supporting the bill? [Interruption] Oh, he says it is because he loves them\u2014it is aroha. I say that the real reason is that Mr Tamihere puts loyalty to the Labour Party and his position in Cabinet ahead of looking after his own people. He knows that this is an unjust bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI also say to the House that we are being told by Sir Tipene O\u2019Regan and others that 91 percent of all iwi support this bill. Rubbish! Absolute nonsense! But if they believe that is so, and if they think that that is an important principle, why not put it to the test by having a vote? Why not go and ask the iwi? But, of course, we know that the Government will not do that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003ELet me make it clear what I think should happen. I believe that this House has to take responsibility, because the proposal comes from a Government bill. Yes, the ACT party is prepared to recognise property rights, and we say it is possible to have property rights in fishing. Of course, the property right that M\u0101ori had in 1840 was the right to fish. That is how they put it. We can identify, even now, without much difficulty the fishing areas that particular M\u0101ori tribes and iwi had. That is what we should have done, and we should have done that in a proper legal fashion. But instead, we have a squalid, political deal with some M\u0101ori groups that are now powerful and rich, and they have actually drawn up the maps themselves. We all know that the maps are unjust; we all know they are unfair. And we also know something else. We know that on this particular matter the Rt Hon Winston Peters is right. The average M\u0101ori in New Zealand has not seen a snapper, and what is more, we know that under this bill M\u0101ori never will see one. This bill is actually an injustice. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003EI say to the National Party members that they should rethink their position. If they rethink their position, if New Zealand First is against it, if ACT is also against it, and if the United Future members for the first time in their lives stop being a doormat, we can start to get close to stopping this bill. I listened to the Green Party members. I do not know quite why they are against the bill, but apparently they are. I am prepared to take their vote, and we can then defeat this nonsense.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c43724bcf3a843faa0a9418f0ac176be\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c43724bcf3a843faa0a9418f0ac176be\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to lend support to the passage of the Maori Fisheries Bill at this first stage. Much that was conveyed in the speech made by the Hon Richard Prebble I agree with, actually, but I do not see the logic in our deciding ahead of the examination of this bill by a select committee to make up our minds right now not to support it. We are very happy to allow the bill to go to a select committee, but we do so with some of the comments that have been made by Richard Prebble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe would like the select committee not just to be a rubber-stamping body. I have read the document that was given to the Minister of Fisheries in May of this year. It is a very complex document. It involves, for example, a lot of arithmetic and, as has been pointed out, a lot of measurements and maps, and a whole range of things. I do not think we should simply kiss goodbye to and ignore 11 years of work and go back and start again at this point in time. I do not think that is a wise thing to do, at all. So that is one thing\u2014I do not think we should rubber-stamp the bill. We should look at it, but I do not think we should be relitigating the whole thing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003ESo we need to strike a kind of middle way\u2014an attitude one would expect from United Future\u2014 to make some progress. We have to keep in mind the big prize, and that is to get this matter settled so that the benefits can flow through to the people, who have been waiting for a long, long time to see something of consequence flow from this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI want to make another comment that Richard Prebble made: I think the comments of Justice McGechan, made on 17 December, should be taken into account by the select committee. I refer to the one that he calls the judicial bay line, which he has mentioned already, and also the appraising of grass-roots appreciation of the benefits passed down to Ng\u0101i Tahu. I think those two issues should be relooked at.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EI also agree with him\u2014and I think John Tamihere does, as well\u2014that further consideration should be given to an equitable allocation to urban M\u0101ori beyond that which is currently on the table. This settlement process somewhat reminds me of the historical situation in some of the old countries of Europe, where, over time, an aristocracy grew up because certain people in certain families owned land and assets to the exclusion of all others. Over time, one\u2019s success and opportunities in life actually depended on the family one was born into. I have a bit of a fear that, with the way this model works, that is going to be the future of M\u0101oridom, as well. One\u2019s future prosperity and one\u2019s future opportunities in life will depend on which family one is born into. That, I think, is completely against the whole ethos of New Zealand as a nation. We have a very strong \u201CJack is as good as his master.\u201D ethos in this country. We believe in every child and every human being, regardless of race, getting a fair go in this country, and I would certainly want to see that for all M\u0101ori as we move forward.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EIn view of the time constraints this evening, I am not going to say much more than that at this point, but will just say that United Future wants to see this bill go forward to a select committee. We wish the committee well in its endeavours, and we look forward in due course to its report coming back to this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00222f8f4e59f75847828db934469b482382\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222f8f4e59f75847828db934469b482382\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E May I first of all thank the Hon Richard Prebble for giving the National Party an opportunity to reflect on its position on this bill. He questioned whether we should be supporting this bill, and he gave us the opportunity to reflect on it. We have reflected on it, we do support the bill, and we support it going to a select committee. We thank him for that opportunity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe reason for our position is that the longest-serving member of Parliament who has taken an interest in fisheries happens to be from the National Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022486ac2d496124a08b9226c2c6fbf12ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Who\u2019s that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ebee47348b2e42fb86175fbf9de558d1\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Georgina te Heuheu. She spoke on this. She is the longest-serving member of Parliament who has spoken on the bill, and she supports it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242d7210a82df4ccf8d4e119396af0b69\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: What about Mr Prebble and myself?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022297d271e766642c59ed896255f10b2aa\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Sorry, I forgot about Richard Prebble. Georgina te Heuheu is the longest-serving M\u0101ori member of Parliament who has spoken so far on this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002256b8ff179a3f433daa481471574073ef\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, another mistake!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281352cc2de4e49fda9e776ee222a1d7b\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: What? Another mistake? Sorry! Georgina te Heuheu is the longest-serving M\u0101ori member who has been constructive in the last 10 years when it comes to M\u0101ori fisheries. I have never seen Winston Peters so easily fall into a trap in this House as he fell into that one just then. He was sucked along, one by one, by a young white boy from the north. Clearly, for Winston Peters the light is dying, the sun is setting, and the old man is beaten at his own game. I am hoping that over the Christmas break he will go up to Whananaki, in the north, catch a few snapper, and reflect on his future in this House. When a young white whippersnapper from Whangarei can beat Winston Peters\u2019 at his own game it is time for the old man to retire. I am disappointed to see him fall so easily for that trick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to acknowledge Georgina te Heuheu as a speaker in the House today who acknowledged National\u2019s support for this bill going to a select committee. We will give it serious consideration because, certainly, we have some questions in relation to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI took great interest in Wayne Mapp\u2019s comments over the last fortnight in relation to this bill coming into this House at this time. He had two major concerns. The first was that this bill would come into this House before the two High Court judgments had been heard and viewed by the New Zealand public. That was a bit of a mistake\u2014somewhat of a marketing error by Labour\u2014simply because one should respect what the courts have to say, one should listen to what the courts have to say, and one should take into account what the courts have to say. However, I do recognise that the bill was delayed. It was due to come in last week, but it was delayed for 1 week, so that we could hear some of those findings.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe second issue that Wayne Mapp brought up, which was of interest to me, was the structure of some of the trusts being set up\u2014the Te Wai M\u0101ori trust and the Te Putea Whakatupu Trust. The latter is commonly known as the urban trust, which John Tamihere has taken an interest in. The Te Wai M\u0101ori trust is all about research and development of freshwater fisheries. Wayne Mapp raised the need for those trusts to have M\u0101ori trustees. He questions the requirement for legislation to state explicitly that they should be M\u0101ori trustees, particularly given that those trustees are appointed by the seven commissioners above them, who, through legislation, must be M\u0101ori themselves. Our concern simply is that\u2014and I concede that Wayne Mapp put it better than me\u2014M\u0101ori may find that there are non-M\u0101ori who are able to fill those roles and do a better job, and they deserve the freedom to choose whom they have on those trusts. I accept, though, as Richard Prebble clearly does not and as Winston Peters clearly does not\u2014and the Greens clearly have not even thought about it\u2014that this asset is a M\u0101ori asset. Because of the Fisheries Act 1989 and because of the 1992 fisheries settlement, this asset is a M\u0101ori asset, and decisions on its future should be in M\u0101ori hands. I certainly acknowledge that, but I am just a bit concerned that there is a requirement in legislation that M\u0101ori oversee some of that asset and the disbursement of funds. I am not quite sure that is necessary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThere is no doubt it is a big asset\u2014$700 million to $750 million once one takes the quota, cash, companies, and various other assets into account. But it is worth bringing to the attention of the House that, on a population basis, based on the electoral roll and who is on the M\u0101ori roll, it is only about $2,000 per M\u0101ori person living in New Zealand at this time. It is a significant amount to M\u0101oridom, but the reality is that the future of M\u0101ori in this country, their economic prosperity, their cultural prosperity, and their prosperity when it comes to education and their families\u2014all the statistics that M\u0101ori are measured by, inside and outside this House\u2014will not rely on this $750 million, given that it amounts to only about $2,000 per head of M\u0101ori population. What will count is how M\u0101ori use assets like this. What will also count is how they approach the education system and get success there, how they approach all sorts of other areas in life, and how Government and private enterprise can assist them in doing that. That is what will really count. This is simply a nest egg\u2014a significant one, yes\u2014of $700 million, but the reality is it will not save M\u0101ori from the damning statistics that we hear about time and time again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI would like to take some time to look at some of the issues about what will be received through the allocation model as per the legislation. There will be allocation of quota from before the 1989 settlement, and of post-settlement assets as well\u2014roughly, post-1992. There will be cash, and what they call income shares, which generate an income stream for each iwi group. The interesting thing is that the quota that will be allocated in that way to iwi can be sold only within the iwi group. They cannot be sold outside that grouping of M\u0101ori. That is quite interesting in that, on reflection, it affects a quite significant portion of the quota\u2014I think it is 20, 30, or 40 percent of the quota out there in the marketplace. In terms of the market within M\u0101oridom for those particular quota, which are locked in there, it will be interesting to watch how much effect that provision has on the pricing structure, both within that M\u0101ori system and without that M\u0101ori system.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear from the Fisheries Commission yesterday that the most significant aspect is the leasing value of that quota\u2014not so much the value of the quota itself being bought and sold, but the leasing value. Of course, quota can be leased outside M\u0101oridom, and can be leased inside it. So there is no effect on that pricing structure, at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI also raised the issue of whether quota purchased from outside the M\u0101ori system would be locked into that regulatory framework, and could no longer be sold on the free market to other commercial fishers. I understand that the asset can be built up within, and set aside as part of the settlement asset, or it can move freely outside and be sold without that M\u0101ori group\u2014which is quite an interesting prospect for other commercial fishermen. The important thing, of course, is that that settlement quota will not be whittled away over time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022 data-id=\u00222a1b5bc6a9af4461ba2d6c59cd634215\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00222a1b5bc6a9af4461ba2d6c59cd634215\u0022\u003EHon JOHN TAMIHERE (Associate Minister of Maori Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E E t\u016B ake au kei te tautoko e te mihi i mihia e te whanaunga me te Minita M\u0101ori, i te k\u014Dmihana, n\u014D reira t\u0113n\u0101 koutou, t\u0113n\u0101 koutou. Kei te tautoko i te mihi i mihiaina m\u014D te kaimahi, m\u014D te k\u014Dmihana, aroha ki a koutou.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI just acknowledged my relation\u2019s acknowledgment of the commission and the workers in it. In M\u0101oridom, we have this saying that rings up and down the maraes, year in, year out, month in, month out, and the short version of it is: he aha te mea nui ki te ao, he aha te mea nui ki te ao h\u014Du, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E[What is the most important thing in the world; what is the most important thing in the new world? It is people, it is people, it is people.]   \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EWith regard to the tortuous approach that has been taken to this bill, that saying has been perverted: he aha te mea nui ki te ao h\u014Du? Kei te moni, kei te moni, kei te moni.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E[What is the most important thing in the new world? It is money, it is money, it is money.]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EAs we move forward into the select committee, let us now start to concentrate for a change on the people, rather than on the distribution, the division, and the greed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EThe final thing I want to say with regard to this issue is that in large part the asset has been distributed. This allocation model just brings it to closure. In terms of the lease rounds, the few have done very well in the name of the many. We must now put the spotlight on M\u0101ori leadership going forward with regard to how they will connect the performance of our assets\u2014and this asset has been performing well, there is no doubt about that\u2014with the under-performance in our communities. We can no longer continue to tolerate that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003EI conclude by saying that in terms of his decision Justice McGechan was absolutely prescient in his comments in the High Court in Auckland when he stated quite clearly that the way the Te Putea Trust is being operated is right on song. On that basis, in terms of the submissions to the select committee, I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022bfe8e7cf45394de384484fa3498862e4\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EThat the Maori Fisheries Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 107\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 8\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000486\u0022\u003E was called for on the question, \u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u00223ef07f5db5ec414eb880ac39fe204efc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223ef07f5db5ec414eb880ac39fe204efc\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Acting Minister of Fisheries):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Maori Fisheries Bill be considered by a committee to be established.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00221514e6035c6b4f88bfe2a728c0c762da\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221514e6035c6b4f88bfe2a728c0c762da\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Before I put that resolution, we have an amendment in the name of the Rt Hon Winston Peters. The amendment is to omit the words \u201Ca committee to be established\u201D and insert the words \u201Cthe M\u0101ori Affairs Committee.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221b4b2a9c631e429ebdd5d47fe6b94b87\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Is this new committee and its membership able to debated now, or is it a non-debatable motion?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4858350b9aa47efa819ffbdee8bb91a\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The motion is the next motion on the Order Paper, which is to set up the committee. It was discussed at the Business Committee and has all parties on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222be0fdd96aae4f8e916cd7a3f0526bc2\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 46\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002238d67e6cf5944cc2be7857a43eead744\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 70\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 45\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 24; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002216fb3569a75d42bbad5a1837c97b14fc\u0022\u003ECommittees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022dbb0935270e04ac7aaef406aaa3b9310\u0022\u003EBusiness of Select Committees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002288defb0d8b5a402f89a07c1fa3056330\u0022\u003EAppointments\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002283f8fffc89c849f2b26cedc5a7957485\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002283f8fffc89c849f2b26cedc5a7957485\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That this House establish a committee to consider and report to it on such fisheries and other sea-related legislation that may be referred to it; the committee to consist of 10 members to be nominated by parties to the Speaker as follows: New Zealand Labour 4, New Zealand National 2, New Zealand First 1, Green Party 1, ACT New Zealand 1, and United Future 1; and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during oral questions, and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196 (1 )(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThis is moved primarily for three reasons. The first is that both this bill that we have just been discussing, and a number of other bills, are bills in which all political parties have a keen interest and should be involved with in terms of the considerations of the select committee. The only two select committees that have all-party representation at present are the Finance and Expenditure Committee and the Standing Orders Committee. I think that by no stretch of the imagination would anybody care to suggest that the Waitangi fisheries settlement legislation should be referred to the Standing Orders Committee, and probably not the Finance and Expenditure Committee, either. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003ESecondly, these are all matters in which there is deep M\u0101ori interest in particular. It is appropriate, therefore, to give parties the chance to nominate members to the select committee with a particular emphasis upon the M\u0101ori membership of the House. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe third matter is that the bills that are likely to be referred to the select committee have a degree of common ground between them\u2014that is, the fisheries settlement legislation, the foreshore and seabed legislation, and probably the aquaculture legislation, and I would think that we also need to consider the marine reserves legislation as coming into that category.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E And what particularly will be in common to those, apart from many of the issues, is that many of the submitters on those bills will have very much in common. There will be a very strong interest with all those bills in submissions from iwi and hap\u016B groups, and other M\u0101ori organisations. The select committee may wish to be able to partake of the possibility\u2014given that some of these bills will be running alongside each other in terms of actual time\u2014of being able to travel the country and take submissions on a range of bills simultaneously from particular groups. This will facilitate that process. Otherwise what would happen is that the Waitangi fisheries legislation would probably go to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, the foreshore and seabed legislation\u2014goodness knows where that would go, appropriately. The Marine Reserves Bill would go to the Local Government and Environment Committee, almost certainly; and the aquaculture legislation would go to the Primary Production Committee. Therefore they would have been split all over the place in terms of the select committees dealing with those matters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EThe third element is that almost certainly in terms of the foreshore and seabed legislation we would have sought to set up a separate select committee. As I said, it does not fit easily into any other committee, and given the very strong interest of all parties, I am sure, in that issue, but again the particular interest of M\u0101ori in that issue, there are problems in running select committees if a separate committee is set up, while other mainline committees are continuing major work in the meantime. The whips will be particularly aware\u2014certainly the Government whips are\u2014of the difficulty of running the number of people involved in select committees in that case. By forming a separate select committee we are able to ensure that one or two other select committees will have their workloads significantly reduced. They will not need to meet so often over the coming months, while this special select committee is under way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EIt is going to be a very important select committee because of the nature of the legislation before it. In some ways a good deal of this legislation will reflect issues about the nature of our nation and its identity, and the way forward in that respect. I wish it well. Because of the bulk of the work that is going to be involved, the greater amount of work, I think the suggestion, certainly in my own mind, is that there are going to be a lot of submissions, so that the committee will need to meet outside the normal one morning a week sitting times for a select committee, to enable that range of submissions to be heard, while progress is being made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003EParticularly in terms of the bill we have just been considering, the message I have loud and clear is that the momentum now needs to be continued and carried through to conclusion. We have been waiting 11 years so far for a settlement of the division of the fisheries settlement. We cannot now as a House delay the process for year upon year, while the select committee wends its way through a large number of submissions, with only meetings in a relatively limited amount of time per week. We need to get on and make sure that now people can make progress based on the resources that are available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d06198d09364dbebd1fea397fe02707\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER (Senior Whip\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I listened with interest to the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s comments about the reasons why we are debating this motion setting up a special select committee to consider possibly four bills that relate to matters that are contentious in the Parliament and contentious in the public\u2019s mind. I listened carefully to see whether the Minister had a very good reason why we should set up a special select committee, rather than refer the legislation to one of the permanent select committees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EI was interested to hear the Minister say we should set up a special select committee, firstly, to make sure that every party is represented, and I accept that because that is logical and very useful; and, secondly, he said we should make sure there is good representation of M\u0101ori on the special select committee. At that point I started to wonder what was the real reason behind our setting up a special committee. One has to ask this question: we have a M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, we have a Primary Production Committee\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7ffe064bdc9491c928c132e4dd17129\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: Practically no M\u0101ori on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229d5ba2c2a4b84670b48d64bce64acd52\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: Correct. But the point is that with either of those committees, if there is a will by one or other of the parties that may not be represented on them directly, there is the means by which that can happen. If a particular party feels that the people who are representing them on it are not the appropriate people, then changes can be made. So it led me to this conclusion: the Government is concerned about the politics around these issues\u2014the Maori Fisheries Bill, the foreshore and seabed bill, and the aquaculture and marine reserves legislation\u2014and it is playing politics by setting up this special select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EIt is doing so because it is concerned that if it did, for instance, refer the bill to the M\u0101ori Affairs Committee, then not only would that not look like the appropriate select committee, but it would then cause the Government some difficulties in managing its people on that select committee. I say to the Deputy Prime Minister that I understand\u2014and he can confirm it or not\u2014that Russell Fairbrother is to be the chairman of the special select committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fd9a23ece1b41bb8092125543886d62\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, a brand-new member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228f0e2b22663349e095e2053110458b52\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He is a first-term member who will be the chairman of a select committee that will deal with some extremely important, sensitive legislation. Why would one get an anonymous backbencher to chair the select committee? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022280acfc24e2a4c149a782c65c40b8dce\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s known for his sensitivity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022490ff36093644817a227aa3f67c31050\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. Mr Prebble interjected that Mr Fairbrother is well known for his sensitivity. The fact is that we have to ask ourselves that question. The next question that then sprang to my mind is: who else is the Labour Party and the Deputy Prime Minister likely to put on the select committee from its side? If this motion gets passed, Labour will have four members. So I ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether Tariana Turia will be one of those members. I have a great respect for that lady. [Interruption] Well, there are a few things she says that I do not agree with. There is a lot of stuff she says that I think makes good sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229be9759857e744cf95e0dba3d39ddebd\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f5443bc65564831a559c556880d9619\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I can name several, and am happy to do so, but not on this occasion, because I want to continue on with my political point. I wonder whether the Deputy Prime Minister trusts that member enough to put her on the select committee. It is well known that if issues start going down a line that the member will not like, she will speak out about it. So I will take a bet that the Government will not run the risk of putting someone like Tariana Turia on the select committee. The Government will try to control and manipulate the committee so that it gets the decision it wants, and it will not want to run the risk of putting anyone on the committee that is likely to upset the apple cart. I say that the chances of having Tariana Turia on the committee as a representative of the Labour Party are zilch. That is a great pity, a great shame. Other members in the Labour Party\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227d556a37c6ba439a84993e9e4289b179\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. For the attention of Mrs Awatere-Huata, one does not stand at the back of the House when another member is on his or her feet speaking.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f5543eea1ce4cdf944252b14712c932\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member will be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225339d9306d034ae8bf837978aae21f0d\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: There are other members from the M\u0101ori caucus of the Labour Party who should be represented on the select committee, but I ask whether the Government will do that, or will it put someone on it who comes from a pretty much landlocked electorate\u2014David Parker, for example.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022613fdb8866104bf697037fbffec82241\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: David Parker?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c335834c59dd4d78b2a6336b9ab29aa4\u0022\u003EJOHN CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: David Parker. The Government may want to put David Parker on the committee because it will be the last thing he does before he loses his seat at the next election, and it might want to give him the feeling of a little bit of power and influence. But one has to ask why the Government would put him on, above somebody like, for example, Dover Samuels. Why would it put somebody who does not know what a fish looks like\u2014and I doubt whether he runs into many M\u0101ori down there either, for that matter\u2014on to something that is as sensitive as this? One has to ask those sorts of questions as we debate who should be on the committee and who should not, and why we should have it at all.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id200312040213ea6f592246c198395153ffab02da000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"