"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002259bdf3ade5694a65bd51140a0a03df28\u0022\u003EWednesday, 10 December 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022587cba8021034636a1a8ec2d62baf88f\u0022\u003EWednesday, 10 December 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d2752f1630b14d73aec2731c5bc44456\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223b74db2ae591435d9bde32a589d9be7f\u0022\u003EMinister of Finance, Republic of Chile\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u00225c5ca561dc9b432aa168233df1da8d8d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225c5ca561dc9b432aa168233df1da8d8d\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing members that His Excellency Mr Nicolas Eyzaguirre, Minister of Finance from the Republic of Chile, is within the precincts of this Chamber with the Acting Prime Minister and Minister of Finance. I am sure that members would wish that he be welcomed and accorded a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003EHis Excellency Mr Nicolas Eyzaguirre, accompanied by the Acting Prime Minister, entered the Chamber and took a seat on the left of the Chair.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c2b9cdb8b667499eb3df4ed3460d440f\u0022\u003EParliamentary Secretary for Health and Aging, Australia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022f7ef916ccc9048168be205acce1a2b47\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f7ef916ccc9048168be205acce1a2b47\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I also have much pleasure in informing members that the Hon Trish Worth, Parliamentary Secretary for Health and Aging, Australia, is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that she be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4260d12129646a1b4af6aa17dd80aee\u0022\u003EMinister of Agriculture, Australia\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u0022503c8720f5c24a778d5225c7e62c28d5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022503c8720f5c24a778d5225c7e62c28d5\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Finally, I have much pleasure in informing members that the Hon Bob Cameron, Minister of Agriculture, from the state of Victoria, Australia, is present in the gallery, and I am sure that members would wish that he be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e718a614837240e89694d084afd097df\u0022\u003ECommittees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00225060220351234adb9926fcd355560c79\u0022\u003EBusiness of Select Committees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b776dbebd83b406a89628231d77210e6\u0022\u003EReporting Dates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002238edbbcdd4f247ceb146d59ba8abf004\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002238edbbcdd4f247ceb146d59ba8abf004\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the time by which the Health Committee must finally report on the Misuse of Drugs (Classification of Ephedrine and Pseudoephedrine) Order 2003 to be extended to 13 February 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002251098f866ec4451a8b52b5ed1889cb60\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u002245b3313f1b7e431098b3f70aa0068ebb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002245b3313f1b7e431098b3f70aa0068ebb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave for the date by which the Commerce Committee must finally report the Shop Trading Hours (Abolition of Restrictions) Amendment Bill to be extended to 27 February 2004, and for the date by which the Education and Science Committee must finally report the Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (Transitional Provisions and Controls) Amendment Bill to be extended to 27 February 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f61136e7a0451ca1dedc6ee3884041\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that course being followed? There appears to be none.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00220db316e683974f49a1310a7a652007d5\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002259a1cfde54744e918b451de6585737e7\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00220302ae4be013476eb4cce2fdcf5b84cb\u0022\u003EImmigration, Minister\u2014Border Control\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5e5515e721a4e6ea7135b5f6a9de661\u0022\u003E1. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Immigration: In 208 weeks as Minister of Immigration, is she satisfied she has in place sufficient checks and investigative systems to ensure people are not abusing New Zealand\u2019s entry and exit laws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022a0e58f0d63d94760b5557402e1a86932\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a0e58f0d63d94760b5557402e1a86932\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E Not entirely, because there is always room for improvement. However, I am satisfied that the checks and investigative systems in place today are far more stringent than they were in the 208 weeks before I became Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022534c930905c34192ae3dc700b2fb1679\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Now that the Minister has had time to be briefed on the case I raised yesterday pertaining to Adele Erisnas, a South African working as a nanny with an expired work permit, having married Mr Quban Khel, an Afghan taxi driver, at a registry office in Auckland at 11 a.m. last Wednesday\u2014clearly a case of marriage of convenience\u2014will she tell this House what she has done about this case, and thousands upon thousands of overstayers who are staying in this country abusing our system of Government; is she going to do something about it at last, or just allow this abuse to go on in the name of the New Zealand people?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e8feb21da1d34aaf8a169a908178db0b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There were four questions there. Two can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692991a551b34efc9d38c0e865690d10\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Raising a case in Parliament does not actually absolve an individual of his or her responsibility to get permission from the individual to breach the provisions of the Privacy Act, but because such a disservice has been done to this individual I have decided to reveal to the House that she has a work permit valid to 31 January next year. The member should get his facts right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e09922372514fb89a07493236f26e3c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell us why on earth this person\u2019s work permit was extended, given the fact that we are not short of people who can act as nannies in this country and we have tens and tens of thousands of people unemployed; why on earth was this person allowed to come here, and stay here?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5466aa29fd64146ab31a77f53440bd8\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: All I have done on this occasion is to establish that the advice the member gave to the House yesterday was inaccurate. He alleged that she was an overstayer; she is not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225b2266e200b74c40b6a54b9c12087d8f\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: In 208 weeks as the Minister of Immigration, is the Minister satisfied she has ensured that people are not abusing New Zealand\u2019s entry and exit laws, compared with her predecessors, particularly the Minister who tried to bend the rules and allow a group of Chinese immigrants to buy their way into the country\u2014New Zealand First MP, Tuariki Delamere?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022df7ab6e98b184bafb5374d77d05eae2c\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221efac7569827492d975ee485fdd0646b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: While there is a point of order I will not have any comment at all, or people will be leaving.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002249c5af9ccb0b4b84bc27c011ba455639\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: My point of order is that the case about which the member speaks related to a person who was not a New Zealand First MP. The member should get his facts right or he will be stopped in his tracks if he seeks to abuse the Standing Orders. He was not a New Zealand First MP.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274d5b2d0f9414334987e4fcc7eec4e72\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If there is any reflection on a member of the House, then of course it is out of order. Is this person currently a member of the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227112ff5e2a694743822204d632619078\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022812a469584294b9ea0b9d32361bea14c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question can be answered.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d8702f465a7e4142a5f1de4d697c08fd\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Many more checks and balances have been put in place to ensure that cases such as the one described, relating to an individual Minister who entered Parliament as a member of the New Zealand First party, do not happen again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b7ee025985d43988346d5589fa5c1b9\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister also enlighten the House as to the status of the investigation into allegations that Tak Wo Kwan duped five Christchurch-based Chinese students into paying up to $100,000 each to gain permanent residency because he had friends who worked as immigration officers and immigration consultants; and how many more cases do we have to hear about before this Minister does something in respect of her portfolio responsibilities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228d0f096812e44d279496fd650afef5e8\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Again, the information that we were given in the House yesterday does not quite stack up with what we have discovered\u2014that is, this man is facing charges, and no convictions have yet been entered. It would be inappropriate to comment on a case where no convictions have been entered, although I do note that he first visited New Zealand in 1998.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bce11e6dd79a4117bba4aab331dd5a7f\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: In light of her assurances to this House, has the Minister been briefed by the Immigration Service on the case of the Pakistani national who was caught in Fiji on a false Fijian passport, then, before appearing in court, absconded through Pakistan and Malaysia, to arrive at Auckland airport, this time on a false Malaysian passport, whereupon he claimed refugee status, was granted a certificate of identity and work permit, and then married a New Zealand citizen before the Refugee Appeals Authority could throw him out, in return for which our Government granted him permanent residence; if the Minister knows about this case, what details and explanation is she prepared to provide to the House?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e87d9ff65f7c481c947096880df771a6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bbd037d9c33d4ec3a167058c2ecb68c4\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think she is doing a proper job in respect of the tens of thousands of overstayers in this country, given that it is 2003 and we have a fully computerised system, or is sitting on her hands doing nothing her speciality?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f42a5175914c4757876442a15ae7bc8b\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I note that the overstaying rate has reduced of recent times. In fact, it was much higher when the member was the Deputy Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663b9197048b461782673b7b9b59ce49\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister give us the assurance that if I provide her with the name of the Pakistani national privately, she will ask her department for the ministerial file that has been prepared on this case, and provide an explanation in the House next week of how this could happen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228c512fbb31134bbbb86a2366816d20c3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Because of the claims that have been made, and the obligation I have to protect personal, private information, the undertaking I will give to the member is that if he does give me that information in confidence, I will ensure it is investigated, and will answer him to the best of my ability without breaching confidentiality.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb144234720b4eba81b53bb92191aba3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why on earth is she pleading the privacy rights of criminals and fraudsters who have come to this country in the way that Mr Hide has described, and as she has done in the past when we in New Zealand First have sent her information and have never ever had one report back from her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293776386983f486380772ac39dde59b8\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I get very few letters from Mr Peters. In fact, the last letter I recall getting from him related to him asking for residence for an English-speaking lawyer who did not want to practise as a lawyer in New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b0236ada877346b89353abd04e52b398\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. No such case has been brought to that Minister\u2019s attention by me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229269448062d0468fb7a71b3db2ae6ca6\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, the member did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022351d9960171941feb9721d8d84e00448\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: No, the woman I talk about is sick.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c2d6d7a20344991b2638904e64e91eb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order. That is entering into debate. Please be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220467eaa2c7c94f289050286a1fd10bdd\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is not a matter of debate. She is required to answer the question, and to be terse, to the point, and relevant. She is not being relevant now. Perhaps the Minister could table the case in front of the House now.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225dd8aefd524b4162aea2aa144bb2c35b\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say is that the Minister was addressing the question asked by the member, and the member then interrupted her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022864d1ba290824586becbf47cd7741b32\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was very interested in the answer. The member said that his party has sent some letters, they had not been answered, and the Minister was recalling to us the last letter she could recall getting. We were just getting to the interesting part about an English-speaking lawyer who did not want to practise law. I sort of empathise with that, and I want to know what was coming next.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293b97215c4ee47468dee31b5054d8b20\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister was giving her version of the correspondence she had received. The question was about correspondence. She was entitled to answer in the way she did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e2f9bac4b9714e3e96be31818546aaf5\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. My understanding from the exchange is that the leader of New Zealand First has given his assurance to the House that that letter was not sent. My understanding of Speakers\u2019 rulings is that when a member says that, his or her word must be accepted. Rather than you ruling out the point of order, your normal course in these cases has been to say that the member has said that that did not occur, and we have to accept the member\u2019s word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffe75c9688754d25a4c09c2e99253a4a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course we accept the member\u2019s word, which was said after the comments of the Minister. I accept her word. I accept the Minister\u2019s word.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9edac739f83426e847bce54e5bc1584\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Either there is such a letter, or there is not. If you accept her word, you are saying that my word, because I gave it first, is not to be believed. Perhaps you could ask the Minister to find the file and table it now. Stop being a dreamer!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daa5181e662c41f397d6ccafb6631349\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise for that comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224328b0af4e3a4c9a8dfee8fca03dc681\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. Is that clear?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab76dfaa8041483fa0ce3d1b45690a9e\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is on his final warning, and I mean that. As far as I am concerned, I accept the word of every member of Parliament. If there is a dispute, that dispute is covered either in debate or by one member acknowledging that a mistake has been made. Once I start not accepting the word of a member of Parliament, then we get into pretty serious trouble.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00224d4bb39213284755bcc425826f95f312\u0022\u003EDrugs\u2014P Epidemic\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9716a71a20c4243980b39d0023f0845\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is he satisfied that current laws governing the supply and possession of drugs are adequate to combat the rising P epidemic; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u002221da181edac74b21b5988994a8f3c8bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002221da181edac74b21b5988994a8f3c8bc\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Justice: Yes, the Labour-Progressive coalition Government this year reclassified methamphetamine as a Class A drug under the current law. The penalty for supply of the drug is a maximum of life imprisonment. The Government has also taken out a range of other actions to combat the use of P. Of course, there will always be more to do. I assure the member that this coalition Government is moving through its methamphetamine action plan, and further announcements are to be expected.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298b3e4cc7aa94d7abe03a5091830799a\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concede that present measures aimed at halting the rising P epidemic are a manifest failure, given a North Shore social policy impact report that shows that P is now available to students while at school in most locations of the North Shore, and that dealers are targeting kids by waiting outside schools and offering first-time users a free hit; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b5a97713493e4337b7a4d7c51ec6ee80\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is too long, but the member had come to the end as I rose.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f48ea14975544309908042bed7dae13e\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Of course it is a reprehensible act to tempt people to use drugs. There has to be a two-pronged approach. The first is to reduce supply, and the Government is doing its best on that. The second is to reduce demand and show people there is an alternative to a drug life.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bd05e134fc42b89f496e70c96b6ac2\u0022\u003EMartin Gallagher\u003C/span\u003E: What action has the Government taken in response to evidence of increased methamphetamine use?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022089730b2937c45c2ad36414028faee45\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: Just yesterday the Government announced an increase in penalties for the unlicensed importation of methamphetamine precursors\u2014now up to 8 years in jail. The Government has invested another $2 million in the Customs Service and $6 million for police. Cabinet has agreed to lower the presumption of P for supply, from 56 grams to 5 grams. This will give the police the ability to prosecute more suppliers of the illicit drug.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a6fce9cedd804234bb4cb0e3e482b593\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Government not consider banning the sale of pseudoephedrine-based products from chemists in order to cut off the supply of precursors to methamphetamine manufacturers from this source, particularly when there are effective non-pseudoephedrine drugs for cold and flu diseases available in the market?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229111e907ea39433db8f3501c8dcf1ecc\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I am aware that a number of chemists in Gisborne have taken that action. It is a very good proposal and I am sure the Government will look at it further. But I make the point to the member that there is a whole range of precursors for the manufacture of methamphetamine\u2014not just that source. If we attack one area and leave others open, the floodgates will open in the other direction. This Government takes the matter very seriously and we are going to take even tougher action.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206d70c657aaa4caa9f1f424d7fe05da4\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If the Government is serious about its concerns about drug use, when is it going to do something about people who drive cars whilst under the influence of P, cannabis, and suchlike?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e37e6d03eeb49f5b1f51e22b3dcb851\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is wide of the original question, but the Minister may comment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f0d2b897a8cf46bdb2cb8c195ef5f997\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is more a question for the Minister of Transport, but I would make a brief comment to the effect that some substances are very difficult to detect by a test. The technologies are improving, and, as they continue to improve, I am sure the Government will consider bringing in laws to make use of them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002295483fbcd3f64f18992fa02d967e49d5\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of this stated commitment to fighting the rising P epidemic, is the Minister working closely with the Minister of Police on this issue, and, if so, are the two police teams that are trained in the clean-up of methamphetamine laboratories\u2014announced by the Government in mid-May\u2014up and running yet; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1f7e6a7855147af90888168c1c4f420\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I assure that member and the House that I do work closely with the Minister of Police. The Customs Service works closely with the Minister of Police, and the Ministry of Justice does as well. But I am not familiar enough with the police portfolio to answer the member\u2019s question specifically. I suggest she put down a question to the Minister of Police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222df148b32b094a379b81dfbfd45080a8\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that gangs control 95 percent of the distribution of P\u2014the drug that is ruining the lives of too many North Shore teenagers\u2014and in the face of the obvious failure of the present statute, will he introduce legislation to give effect to United Future\u2019s gang-busting initiative that confiscates gang assets and laboratories; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b4dfa0e6ad684d05bf35fb0b42c3e002\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know of a law yet that prevents people from committing a crime. People commit crimes. We make laws to make sure they do not. [Interruption] The second point is that the member makes reference to the Proceeds of Crime Act, and the Government is looking at that matter very closely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289c06dbb313c4d1580e7191e273db12c\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Referring to my last question, why is it that children\u2019s rights can prevail over the rights of sex offenders who receive post-imprisonment electronic monitoring, yet the rights of teenagers, schools, and communities to be free from gang-propagated P-fuelled violence continue to get ignored because the Government is too concerned about a gang\u2019s right to hold property?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a006bc5795a4c0eb9a114b75c352b86\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: In so far as that question concerns the original question, the Minister may answer briefly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002217a898b03b6f453981f8534b7482cf30\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER\u003C/span\u003E: All I can say is the assertion behind that question is complete and utter rubbish. This Government is concerned about the use of P, it is concerned about people\u2019s rights, and it is concerned about the welfare of its citizens. I reject every sentiment behind that question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d1953ee74e924545addf10a741cfc165\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014Te Ope Mana a Tai Proposals\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa86dd530a7b416eb10a1e25040f6a87\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Has she been informed of the report in this morning\u2019s New Zealand Herald which asserts that Te Ope Mana a Tai met with Hon Dr Michael Cullen 2 weeks ago and \u201Cappeared to be in agreement\u201D, but \u201Che had later told the group Cabinet colleagues railroaded him when they knocked back a paper he had taken to them on the issue\u201D; if so, what were the proposals knocked back by Cabinet?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022da4f13a802944d388d4caff1aa437596\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da4f13a802944d388d4caff1aa437596\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E The Prime Minister is aware of the general tenor of the article, and is also aware that it is wrong.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bdaa0023de00483ba93697a009b9e2be\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: If the assertions are wrong, is she aware that at a 4 December meeting with Te Ope Mana a Tai, Dr Cullen did tell them that the Government proposes to settle the seabed and foreshore issue by issuing customary title, which will be available to recognise mana whenua as well as specific use rights; and is this a change in her position of full public ownership as stated in August?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299fdb87cca7a4ff784add275996edd11\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Yes and no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c0b121e935994121a07d766856bde676\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister give the House a simple assurance that the proposals that the Government is considering will advance, equally and without prejudice, the interests of all New Zealanders, and that no new or exclusive rights that are not otherwise provided for will be created for any category of New Zealanders when these proposals are finalised?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4058fd7ca7245638ceee6f5c8402d78\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I can give that assurance. Indeed, for the vast majority of the population there will be no change from the position as it is at the present time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a02e9d57722415191e3f71b4ba1164f\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Prime Minister not simply front up to the Parliament and the people of New Zealand, stating clearly the Government\u2019s foreshore and seabed policy, instead of engaging with meetings of self-selecting interested parties at the risk of being accused of duplicity by giving different messages to the different parties?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002219544232be22417ebed5120e7c101495\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: At this minute, she is on a plane and it makes it difficult for her to front up to Parliament. It has actually been the Deputy Prime Minister\u2019s job to have these meetings, not the Prime Minister\u2019s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a488e30405fb447f91f35ab18a9241c6\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was put down to the Prime Minister; the Deputy Prime Minister in this instance is answering on behalf of the Prime Minister. He cannot just dismiss the question saying the Prime Minister is not here; therefore he will not answer it properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e0dfae8ac9e643c1b422bf596f70dfc0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I think the member has a certain point there. I will ask the Deputy Prime Minister just to expand a bit on his answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224411771825b94f488d42ede758a42762\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am the Acting Prime Minister, and not speaking on behalf of the Prime Minister. As I said, the Deputy Prime Minister has been having these meetings, not the Prime Minister having them and not fronting up to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af9ad9c9b72c40d194f9d588760374a8\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is now an occasion of the silly semantics that give Parliament a bad name. Mr Cullen is getting up and saying: \u201CI am Acting Prime Minister\u201D, then referring to \u201Cthe Deputy Prime Minister\u201D\u2014as if he were two different people. As Acting Prime Minister, why does he not tell Parliament what the foreshore policy is, then he would not be accused of being duplicitous?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022eb2b4f20a4a54970a37faa9fce3f7ad7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Let me put it this way: if that had been the question, then he would have had to answer it. I understood him to say that at this moment he is the Acting Prime Minister, which is correct. However, he then said that the Prime Minister was not having the meetings, but that the Deputy Prime Minister, who is the member, Dr Cullen, was having them. I could understand that perfectly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a61399070fe4313b7cfa6029a5e5280\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That will not do at all. If he is the Acting Prime Minister, then he is the Prime Minister. So when Mr Shirley gets up and says: \u201CWhy doesn\u2019t the Prime Minister do X or Y?\u201D, he is clearly referring to Dr Cullen, and Dr Cullen ought to answer why he is prepared to tell all sorts of self-selected groups what the Government\u2019s policy is, but is not prepared to tell this Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022656b958af358478da878d51e6b7fa71f\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: That is a question I would be happy to answer, but it was not the question. If the member would like to ask that question, I would be happy to give an answer to it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220e2fd85424e64cb19e9c4180772f0ac7\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Perhaps the Hon Ken Shirley could restate his question with the information we have just received.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bd636f48d52b4448a2b9bd191bafa7a1\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Acting Prime Minister, who has been meeting with self-selecting interested parties around the country, not front up to Parliament and tell it and the people of New Zealand what his Government\u2019s policy is? Then he would not be accused of duplicity by giving different messages to different audiences.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e6ebffaa4e3842acaae7d8a3cd9b364e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I am not giving different messages to any audience. I look forward to meeting with Federated Farmers, which has finally had the courtesy to ring my office and ask for a meeting, and telling it exactly the same message. What the member is ignoring, if he cares to listen\u2014[Interruption] I have the microphone, so I can go louder\u2014is that the policy is not yet finalised. I have been discussing proposals with a variety of groups to get their feedback. I do not propose to discuss the matter with members opposite, because they show no inclination to engage seriously on the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224949e8cfeb5f4a1593995545b3c2318a\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I ask the Acting Prime Minister\u2014or whatever he calls himself now\u2014why it is better to talk to everybody outside Parliament, rather than people inside Parliament and inside this Chamber; second, why has he asked other parties to join an ad hoc select committee if the last comment he made is remotely true?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8d3053b6d4f45de8396edffe99151e8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Because it is a function of this Parliament that all parties are represented on select committees according to their proportionality. We could, in fact, have sent bills to select committees that that member\u2019s party is not represented on. I shall be happy to discuss the proposals with members when they are finalised. I will be discussing the proposals with some parties before they are finalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225aaa6cd2c6784e9081c030f49815188c\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. First, I ask whether the question is to the Acting Prime Minister, or to the Prime Minister, as it was set down. The last two questions have been asked of the Acting Prime Minister and answered in the first person by that Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ed9a528c1fb48ae98e184d827f60fbb\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It is to the Prime Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227017b45c5e5b4584815bd0662ae1fcd4\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Secondly, I seek leave for there to be a debate immediately following question time, so that parties on this side of the House can voice their opinion on this matter, since we note that the Government intends making its announcement once Parliament has shut down for the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002232554b401f0443439cfcf0542341da67\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to have a debate. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022998d39d6a24240ee8de3871a52267fcc\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: At the 4 December meeting with Te Ope Mana a Tai, did the Prime Minister understand that Dr Michael Cullen, the Hon Parekura Horomia, and the Hon John Tamihere agreed with each other that mana whenua title would translate into iwi, hap\u016B, or wh\u0101nau having full authority over the seabed and foreshore specified in their customary title?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022614ea7bc84a74891a1c8a0c2bcad4741\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f83ec77fd2c48ea99525fc766e96ea2\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the series of points that were presented to that meeting, would the Prime Minister agree with the Hon John Tamihere that, in his view, a development proposal in an area covered by customary title, with as low a level of interest as ingress or egress across the relevant area, would result, effectively, in that iwi, hap\u016B, or wh\u0101nau having complete control over whether the project could progress or a consent be issued?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a605d8158ccb41fcae13b927d530b566\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The member will have to wait for full details of the proposals when they are finalised on Monday. They have yet to be finalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200d1e0153767488aa9e11448ce46f98d\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given that this is an issue that concerns the whole of New Zealand and all representatives of New Zealanders, who sit in this House, I again seek leave for the House to have a debate immediately following question time, so that it might discuss this matter before Parliament is shut down for the year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227520fc653b6e48be853e8fe7108b4853\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to have that debate. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022415f5ca477b141ad97e29b2a4e7d6ad8\u0022\u003EPatient Treatment\u2014Decision Making\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022faea1d4b75624782be56659b231b38bd\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Does she agree that decisions about which treatment is most appropriate for particular patients are best made by their doctors in consultation with the patients themselves; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u00224ee4b904d5ab49cb9aa5a68dbe6fdef4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224ee4b904d5ab49cb9aa5a68dbe6fdef4\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E Generally, yes\u2014provided the decisions made are based on best medical practice, taking into account the patient\u2019s diagnosis and the suitability of treatments available. I would also expect that any medicines that might form part of that treatment would meet current international standards in respect of quality, safety, and effectiveness. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220297e16aeb824f0f8ef3f2edf266e9cd\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of survey results indicating that one in 10 doctors has a patient he or she believes might benefit from medicinal cannabis; and given that cannabis is the only effective relief for a number of people with conditions such as chronic pain and nausea, why does she continue to deny doctors the ability to make cannabis available to their patients?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e590dbbf8d1412a957c8926bc37a71e\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: For cannabis to be proved as a medicine, it would have to have a status under the Medicines Act. It would therefore need to have a standardised dose, it would need to be safe, and it would need to have therapeutic efficacy. Unfortunately, we do not have that as yet. However, in trials in the UK a lot of work has been done on a pill that may be of use. My understanding is that the member would like people to be allowed to smoke cannabis. That certainly would not be a medicinal use of that product. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022779387f57c564487b7d84df918521783\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Minister seen the most recent report from the Asthma and Respiratory Foundation of New Zealand and the Thoracic Society of Australia and New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f04dc46756d46b894b3604d58a24bcf\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and I suspect that most members of this House have. From all the evidence available, those organisations conclude that the risks of smoking cannabis are similar to those of smoking tobacco, and they recommend that public health education should include the message that the respiratory effects of smoking cannabis are similar to those of smoking tobacco. Why would we want to inflict that on New Zealanders as a medicinal way of treating anything?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b09a8e7022fa42fda0fc75131178b04d\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister aware of comments by Paul Smith, professor of pharmacology at Otago University, that the Government is ignoring decades of international research on the medicinal use of cannabis, and that cannabis-derived drugs are already being widely used overseas; is she aware that there are many methods of administration that do not include smoking, which are all equally unavailable to patients who have the support of a doctor to use cannabis; and can she confirm her answer to a written question of 2 March 2001 that she considered no studies on the effectiveness of cannabis as a medicine when deciding applications for the use of cannabis as a medicine?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022670304ab3e7d4a14bd35be9bde37de28\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, that was the advice in 2001. Subsequently, the United Kingdom has undertaken trials on cannabis in the particular form of a pill\u2014not in the form of smoking or eating, but in the form of a proper medicine. Those trials are due to be completed very soon, and when they are, the Government will certainly look at the use of such a medicine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289648647ec4c438693195ab303303d76\u0022\u003ENandor Tanczos\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister tell the House what public health good is achieved by 14 police officers raiding the house of a man who has been a tetraplegic for 28 years, in order to bust him, naked in bed, for using cannabis with the full knowledge of his doctor and specialist; and will she personally explain to Mr Leo Danger\u2014sitting in his wheelchair in the public gallery today\u2014why she continues to deny him effective pain relief?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022247a7c6e4c244e14b3cac0ff9ea0bb62\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: When there is a suitable medicinal product for that particular person, then the Government will certainly consider it. But at this stage, I do not consider that smoking cannabis would be good for that person\u2019s health. I have just released the report from the Asthma and Respiratory Foundation, in which the effects of cannabis are shown to be very similar to those of tobacco. In fact, we have higher levels of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease in New Zealand than we ever suspected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022eaaad191-62cf-43e8-a772-63a71dbf4d4a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204ba4f93ba3041099c26330e5633c4f2\u0022\u003ESue Kedgley\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister rather that Mr Danger continues to take a cocktail of 20 prescribed pills every day, including morphine and valium, to alleviate his suffering, rather than take cannabis\u2014with, for example, a vaporiser\u2014which he finds more effective, with fewer side effects, and takes with the full knowledge and consent of his doctor and specialist?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022894ee4b39e134c399649516e296337b9\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: What the particular person whom members are talking about does with his doctor, obviously he does with his doctor. This Parliament has not approved the use of cannabis in a medicinal way. I do not believe that members would want me to approve that until we know it is a safe product to use. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022db50f8bfe16f4f0986a0cf5aaa874fc6\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00228fa3fb23c8cb4d448cb4363a4cb67fce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228fa3fb23c8cb4d448cb4363a4cb67fce\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a letter dated 22 November, written to the Minister of Immigration, attaching a document pointing out that someone has come to this country, falsifying his name by taking the name of his brother who is a qualified lawyer in Dakar, but he is not. I ask her to do something about it for a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a6ff344a24624c5fbcb50b9e38e34c68\u0022\u003EEarly Childhood Education\u2014Participation\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002276b2b32ee3234764ac4bc238237deb6b\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What steps is he taking to increase participation in early childhood education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022cdf9cb105a30448ebaf2d0994292c25b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cdf9cb105a30448ebaf2d0994292c25b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E This Government is investing $8 million to create more than 1,200 new places for children in early childhood education centres. Seventy-two community-based non-profit early childhood services will receive this funding to establish new centres, extend buildings, or remove health and safety hazards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259c46fe1defc409a9a02e178daf65730\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: When there are waiting lists for some of our early childhood providers and many children cannot attend early childhood education centres, why is it that if a visitor to New Zealand enrols his or her child at any early childhood institution, the Government will fund that child at the full rate, regardless of citizenship status?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022db1af584ab234e5f90e086fb3d8cb891\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I am not quite so concerned about the citizenship status. I think residency is a question, and given the very good representations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c9653ac452a64983a8208230d9e5eb1c\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Non-residents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aeca745af0a4b6cb39886dfff39614e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I think we even have a few non-citizens around this place every now and again. I am not concerned about that. I am concerned about residence status, and we are doing a funding review. Given the very good representations the member has made, that will be included in it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022124180d9cd29477c94523f78907f3686\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister confirm that half of all children who receive subsidies for early childhood education attend privately owned centres, and why are privately owned centres excluded from this scheme, thus excluding those children who attend them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226d72f9bde8044504b4a17dbbca87dd02\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, I cannot confirm the numbers\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f79ed0690e422da2a3b6421526dc47\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: You should know them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f5b9f5e44e249d893bbdb1cfe5bd7bc\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot confirm the numbers, because the member is again making mistakes. Again, he just cannot count.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222670be1aa9c541f1805c0a7e82ffe677\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: 57 percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c8d761ecd63b4297b3b078ddddaf637b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member does not understand the difference between community and private early childhood education centres. [Interruption] He has it wrong again. [Interruption] But the key point is\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279ae94dff0ae4e2e9342a81a4f0d9cd3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: For a start, the member interjected three times in the second person, which involves me. He knows that is out of order. I now want the Minister to come to the answer concisely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221533a810305242c3bfba0847c00663ff\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In that answer, as with every answer he has given, this particular Minister chose to make insulting comments about the questioner, rather than answer the question. I ask you to ensure that Ministers answer the question, rather than, as this Minister repeatedly does, get into a personal attack on the member concerned.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c734128a2dbe4639b4ce959973d996bf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: It would have been made very much easier for me to do that if the questioner had not been involving me in his interjections. But I take the member\u2019s point\u2014the Minister will now come to the answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f12ecbdbc8ac4eb89b6fd9b8af13f98e\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: In answering the member\u2019s question, I point out that his numbers are inaccurate. Secondly, it is not the role of the Government to provide capital\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f21f9a39af534aa1b960a89bf82b3ade\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise. Twice now he has involved me by way of the two interjections he has made.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fbbf66b2d1254067950df1c8a31ff504\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This Minister always answers questions by saying that the questioner does not know what he or she is talking about. In this case, he now says that I did not know the numbers, when the first thing he said was that he did not know the numbers. If you are going to allow him to do that every time I ask a question, you can expect consistent disorder.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227899b54ce44f4625afd71a3b1f305706\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: If I get that sort of comment again from the member, he will be leaving the Chamber. I am not having that sort of nonsense at all. The member started his answer by saying that the member was inaccurate. He is perfectly entitled to make that statement. That was the first thing he said in his answer, after I had upheld the point of order of the Hon Dr Nick Smith. I want the Minister now to answer the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002294709ddcf0d64068a2ac0eda606a8f59\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. No disrespect to you, but that is not how the Minister started his answer. He started his answer\u2014some time before Dr Smith took his point of order\u2014with a direct personal attack upon the questioner. You must accept that this is not the first day that we have brought up the issue of Mr Mallard\u2019s style as Minister. It might be perfectly acceptable for the Labour Government to present a Minister of Education as he chooses to present himself, but all we want is direct answers to questions\u2014not personal attacks upon people who, apparently, have no right to ask him those questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c4d470b820d4c96ad3571e5240b9634\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I upheld Dr Smith\u2019s point of view. I did uphold his point of order. I said to the Minister: \u201CPlease answer the question.\u201D He then started by saying: \u201CI will.\u201D\u2014or words to that effect\u2014\u201CThe member is not accurate.\u201D There is nothing out of order in that particular sentence. I have already ruled on that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279dde93c823240368dd8886ef8840883\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is with a sense of d\u00E9j\u00E0 vu that we have heard that ruling as well. Earlier today the Minister of Immigration got up here and said that the most recent correspondence concerned a series of circumstances. I have just tabled the proof that that is not true\u2014dated 22 November. When is she going to get up and table the evidence of what she said, and for which you admonished me when I criticised her?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f264f694205b4518ba02020c7e605d38\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That is up to the Minister. It is not up to me.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ba80a755d1f416697af4a784960e9b6\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is very much to the point of order in the House. How can you expect order to be maintained when Ministers can behave as Lianne Dalziel has today, and as Trevor Mallard is behaving now? In the case of Mr Peters\u2019 question, there was clearly a total misleading of the House in the answer that was given. In the case of Mr Mallard, there was a deliberate design to antagonise the questioner. If this sort of behaviour continues, then it can only be expected that Opposition members, who are required to provide significant backup and authority to the questions they submit, will become disorderly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215f41ee0d4ae4297bbf9ebd42c53f984\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are two different issues\u2014the one raised by Mr Peters, which is very different from the other question. I refer him to Speaker\u2019s ruling 129/3 of 1992: \u201CThe Speaker has no jurisdiction to determine whether the answer to a question is correct.\u201D As far as the second point of order is concerned, I ruled in favour of the member raising it. I now come to the Minister\u2014he is to give his answer specifically and without any personal comments.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227ae11dcfcc254f178fedcee4f1a59d18\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is not the policy of this Government to provide State funding for the capital portion of private businesses.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224047c16935f248a690232057cb6b4ca2\u0022\u003EHelen Duncan\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister tell the House why this Government believes that increasing participation in quality early childhood education is vitally important?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222403a5c712de4533be5dd3732cecdb4c\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: It is very important. A lot of research shows that the particular benefits go to those people who are most likely to miss out in education\u2014M\u0101ori, Pacific Island people, and those who live in rural areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3e6fdaf77ac402cad0a4350d31d9b15\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table an answer to a written question that demonstrates that the Government\u2019s policy is to fully fund every child in early childhood centres, regardless of the residence or non-residence status of the parents.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b3048df0a1564ccdbfb1f6a5730bba80\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u2014Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c37583cccc304520a97c70f02d2d05ee\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Does she stand by her statement that the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill she introduced last week represents \u201Ca good balance of practical and realistic measures that will strengthen the Act and further promote positive employment relationships\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022d2cfb6efa2a44f6db5a5fc6bd33e8f4f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d2cfb6efa2a44f6db5a5fc6bd33e8f4f\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes\u2014practical because it builds on the successes of the Act, such as the Mediation Service, and realistic because it recognises that employment relationships are about people working together to achieve common goals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229173b805749a44b2a1cd9b5e66f504d0\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the proposed changes overturn much of the current case law covering good-faith bargaining, redundancies, and dismissals, how does she believe the bill will add value to employment relationships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002241df02ae0f594d2a9339c8b908c5ed27\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the member\u2019s contention that they overturn case law. In fact, I refer him to the Baguley case, and also to the INL case, where the court has suggested clarifications that have been made in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022263be082-dd01-4ef1-9c19-d546d0174793\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002238b64a5ffe944aef8f794bbe2030f245\u0022\u003EHon Mark Gosche\u003C/span\u003E: Has the Employment Relations Act of 2000 succeeded in meeting its objectives?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022655829d17ed24e5888213e3ca83e0bc5\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: In large part it has achieved its objectives, especially in promoting a cost-efficient, peaceful resolution of disputes. It did, however\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290aa2bf078354f91baa517f01339d559\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With all due respect to the questioner, this question relates in only the vaguest way to the question first answered. The question that is set down as a primary question, which the Opposition wants information on, is about the amendment bill soon to come before the House. How can a diatribe on the agreed, or otherwise, success of the Employment Relations Act be included here? Surely it is a debating matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a909ec84b96c4b588f84cf73e36ae6a8\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: The principal question refers to strengthening the Act. The Act referred to is the Employment Relations Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022436bbd983150473b8da60ede5e83497f\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: My ruling on the point of order is that it is about how the principal Act is to be strengthened. The supplementary question was wide, but it was within the scope of the original question. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f58083eb37504d89baf33f859c4ba4ed\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: As I was saying, in large part the Employment Relations Act did succeed in achieving its objectives. However, it did not\u2014and this addresses the amendment bill\u2014address the issue of vulnerable employees, which comprises the substantive changes in the employment relations amendment legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022956aaba139e34f7ba8011df797a2d01b\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister wants the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill to provide \u201Ca good balance of practical and realistic measures\u201D which will \u201Cpromote positive employment relationships\u201D, why does she not support a group of individuals\u2014as opposed to a union\u2014having the right to negotiate a collective agreement, as is the case in Australia; is it because she believes New Zealanders are inferior?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fcbcb6998aab42bb922edee7e4c3df9e\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Never, and I think that is obvious\u2014except on the rugby field, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022479840e4bae04dfc981134bf6a757727\u0022\u003EOpposition Members\u003C/span\u003E: Oh!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d16a5e36fc3849d88e74cdfc7718e18c\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Netball is another question, of course.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ff4e8bb75194c8b84ede9aa5301d0ec\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: We win the women\u2019s rugby.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae62adf0eee4bbf9eed874000cb732a\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, we certainly win women\u2019s rugby and netball. But the point is that the honourable member raises issues as to the organisation of employees and workplaces. Traditionally that has been done in the form of the legal notion of a union, and there seems no point in changing that at this stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211a7c5eb4ddc4bd8bd81f341c468f69d\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister assure nurses and other health workers that the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill will not prevent nursing and medical staff from taking industrial action next year in support of fair pay; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022046c728bb480493aaa87737bf29e786c\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The purpose of the provision relating to the health sector was to ensure that patient and public safety is maintained. That was the objective during a strike or a lockout. It was not to prevent the strike or lockout itself, but to look after patient safety.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222340b9554c3b441e9c4532af35345419\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: How will the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill promote positive employment relationships when, in certain circumstances, employers taking over a business will have to inherit workers they do not want?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224839deb9253246549a06ef147dc2f749\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government considers that skilled employees are in fact an asset of the business and, just as plant, capital, and goodwill are seen as assets, so should employees be seen as assets. So we do not see that in this instance it will be a detriment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f750e9c620b4515870e7eb7dedfa59e\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister describe the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill as \u201Ca good balance of practical and realistic measures\u201D when 90 percent of private sector employees are not in a union and will be discriminated against, because under the bill collective bargaining, which can be done only by a union, requires an employer to reach a settlement, but with an individual contract, which 90 percent of New Zealanders are in, there is no such requirement\u2014where is the balance in that?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd3372ddb84d4c85b423ba6508da11e7\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The balance is that individuals have a choice as to whether they have a collective agreement or an individual agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223406dc68525a4e8399293e5ec3344b16\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Government be providing direction on the meaning of \u201Cfair and reasonable\u201D in relation to dismissals, including redundancies, or is it now the Government\u2019s intention that the courts be left to substitute their business judgment for that of business managers?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e7e4791b14743b38055b40dc5927871\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The Government has heard the request of employers not to have prescriptive legislation but to ensure it applies to their particular circumstances, and that is what that provision is directed to take account of.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e4eeda65422f4a83a6827029c1584c6e\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Is it the Government\u2019s intention that employees be permitted to gather at any time with their union representative without fear of disciplinary action or deductions from pay, thus enabling the potential disruption of business without reasonable cause; if not, what limitations will be placed on those meetings under this new legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022809b5c12d99f4acf8af6ec0b591017a2\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The amendment does not change the existing provisions in the legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cba4a56d4a484c5aa35d7694d028fe69\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is clearly an answer the Minister may wish to reconsider, because there is a clause in the legislation that does exactly that\u2014changes it. I see now that the Minister is acknowledging that. I wonder whether she will reconsider her answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200e6b7908c4547c4904d78420841089d\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: It does not change the legislation. It clarifies that if a delegate\u2014[Interruption] I have said all along that this is an amendment about clarification, and the clarification is that if a union official drops in to address an issue for an individual employee, that visit is not considered to be one of the legitimate stopwork meetings in terms of the Act. Some employers have interpreted it that way. Therefore, we needed clarification.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220555189886bd4925bedee835025ddc88\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the Minister\u2019s clarification of her original answer, I wonder now whether she could address the question, which was quite clear. It was: is it the Government\u2019s intention that employees be permitted to gather at any time with their union representative without fear of disciplinary action or deductions from pay, thus enabling the potential disruption of business without reasonable cause; if not, what are the limitations?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210b9f078b9554e7f9be56d2fcb0db7aa\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: Obviously not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002249cc6a30cb5a407a8cf130ce01f88e50\u0022\u003EResource Consents\u2014Process\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a1837fa4d2e44a1a27dec7367606299\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: What has the Government done to reduce the costs and improve the processes associated with applying for resource consents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u002219c21ea8e10b40fbbfe27f3d6bff7d6f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002219c21ea8e10b40fbbfe27f3d6bff7d6f\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Many things. Most significantly, we have put $5.6 million into the Environment Court since 2001. This has enabled the Environment Court to hear cases more quickly, reducing both the delay in reaching resource consent decisions and the associated compliance costs. The Environment Court is now disposing of more cases than are being lodged, and has already halved the backlog it inherited when this Government came into office.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a11a446a654747eaaee4328dd693bb82\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: What evidence is the Minister able to provide the House that increasing the Environment Court\u2019s resources is reducing the amount of delay in resource consent hearings?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c2f48dc7ac44c1793b3ec518ca41fd9\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Digital evidence recording has resulted in a 50 percent time saving on hearing days for the Tongariro power station case currently under way. This new way of recording evidence is a world first, and, according to judicial officers quoted in the Dominion Post on Monday, is the biggest advance they have seen in 20 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223362a29c57a4e7b896a594a1aa6a52d\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: If the Environment Court is doing so well in advancing hearings, why has she introduced a draconian bill to this House that exempts only the Waitaki River from its plan being appealed to the Environment Court; is it because the Waitaki River is viewed by this Government as of lesser environmental importance than others, or why do we not have the same rules for all rivers in this country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220523c2ab7ba640d6be23650d31cfedd4\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There are three questions there. The Minister may comment on two.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e42c73a7883a4ef397191a14a00134bf\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: When the member reads the legislation he will find out that the process inside the first hearing of either setting up their allocation plan or making the decisions is one that is more interrogative than adversarial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f400adda5bc642569e09408b9d13bba8\u0022\u003ELarry Baldock\u003C/span\u003E: Given the progress that has been made in the Environment Court as a result of additional resourcing, does the Minister have any plans to seek further additional resourcing in order to continue to speed up the process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225fe6c15ba9f4a85816d6e5c5f70f20d\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. Over the next 2 financial years an additional $3 million will be available to update the court\u2019s information technology systems, enhance case management processes, provide additional hearing days, provide training for Environment Court commissioners\u2014for instance, in mediation services\u2014and provide digital evidence recording systems.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002211d2bb93953b41dc99fd49b2cbc0896c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table clause 32 of the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill, which states that it cannot be appealed to the Environment Court for its plan.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e85f9283fd1495a9cc40beda0624f83\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that bill. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022c4c021a85e3443e686f004dbebbd60e3\u0022\u003EQuestion No. 1 to Minister\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022663c046fe11a400995785ce17f5fbff3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022663c046fe11a400995785ce17f5fbff3\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E In respect of the tabling of a letter of 22 November from one Allison Jones of the office of the Rt Hon Winston Peters, I seek leave to table the reply dated 3 December stating that we were unable to locate any trace of a person by the name applying to enter New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u002297bf3dd1adba42a587765ebbbbc7d79d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002297bf3dd1adba42a587765ebbbbc7d79d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table a letter signed by the Rt Hon Winston Peters to me, dated 7 May 2003, bringing to my attention the plight of two young British people who, although he had not known them personally, he thought would make excellent New Zealand residents and would bring skills and assets of benefit to our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003EDocument, by leave, laid on the Table of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022cba19c54d9044927ad305eeb26c9902f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cba19c54d9044927ad305eeb26c9902f\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Immigration):\u003C/span\u003E I seek leave to table my reply of 3 June explaining that that would require an exception to Government residence policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002204899cada0b746ac9fa16420b51c6971\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that letter. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00229b7f393b264e4b30afdb1a767fa5f639\u0022\u003EInterest Rates\u2014Banks\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022594a4f51bec848ccbc1fc85aaffdc55a\u0022\u003EHon RICHARD PREBBLE (Leader\u2014ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Finance: What is the Government\u2019s view on the recent trading bank interest rate rises, and what action, if any, is the Government going to take?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022c03699533a3a4c96a7eefea11da7f0d6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c03699533a3a4c96a7eefea11da7f0d6\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Minister of Finance):\u003C/span\u003E Interest rate rises are bad news for borrowers and good news for lenders. The Government does not propose to revert to failed policies of the past such as interest rate controls. It will continue very prudent fiscal management, which is the best contribution it can make.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afabfaf3645a4202b425ea5d47a9f480\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister care to comment on the fact that the Australian inflation rate is 1 percent higher than New Zealand\u2019s, and interest rate rises in Australia are justified; but inflation is low in New Zealand, the Reserve Bank has chosen not to lift its interest rate, and would it not appear that the Australian managers of New Zealand trading banks are looking at the economy through Australian eyes; and is it not time the Reserve Bank required those trading banks to set up their own boards, like Westpac, so that they start to make decisions from a New Zealand viewpoint and not an Australian one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022331f477d64064abe8da10e3ae4ef6f97\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: A number of those banks do, but, of course, the bank that has led the charge towards trying to keep mortgage rates down is Kiwibank, whose creation the member opposed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246078fb76a5f446b9204b559dc53909c\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned that rapidly rising house prices, and now increasing interest rates, will make homeownership even more difficult for many New Zealanders; if he is concerned about it, what will he do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022108287a8c31a4a0b8cc9003ea23e81bf\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: There is clearly a great deal of pressure in the domestic sector, including the building sector in particular. I am sure the member understands that the Government\u2019s capacity to influence that is best done through a tight fiscal policy. Anything else, such as random tax cuts as proposed by members opposite, would lead to a loosening of fiscal policy and more upward pressure on interest rates.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002215ca161f008049ee8bdda455e9b78508\u0022\u003EAccident Compensation Corporation\u2014Fees\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b43f32bf3acb4742a5e0b490eae32d4f\u0022\u003EDAVE HEREORA (Labour)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for ACC: What decisions have been made on the new ACC levy rates this year?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u002253f2655779d14ffa91dba55ee964720e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002253f2655779d14ffa91dba55ee964720e\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E Excellent news for everyone, particularly for motorists and the self-employed: the average total levy for motor vehicles, including licensing fees and petrol excise duty, will fall by 6.8 percent. The average total self-employed levy will drop by 2.2 percent, while the total employers levy and the total earners levy will stay unchanged.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d387648c60f74189baa9c1e8a5777988\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: How do the new accident compensation levy rates compare with overseas rates?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222ee8e3dd19164fe0af525d2782111c30\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON\u003C/span\u003E: Extraordinarily favourably. For example, in Australia average employer premium rates over the last 2 to 3 years range from A$1.55 to A$3.04 per A$100 payroll, compared with the accident compensation total employers\u2019 levy of A$1.21. Despite Australia\u2019s relatively high rates, its private insurance schemes have struggled to survive. Two major insurers have collapsed, including HIH, which was a major player under National\u2019s privatised accident compensation scheme.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022327611396b7c459492251845a21afc58\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That is a very misleading statement by the Minister and inappropriate in the answer. The reality is that not one New Zealand accident compensation claimant was affected by that failure.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002293430610bcbb454b90ef2f84d5e92266\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e5d36a2169c640b4addf72d17bf41a7c\u0022\u003EResource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill\u2014Project Aqua\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a591c6cb1d354a12adc408f0fcf96fd7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: How does she reconcile her statement in the House last Thursday that \u201CThis bill, which we have before us this week, will not be about fast tracking any proposals.\u201D with her press statements on 2 September 2003 saying: \u201CThe legislation will also reduce time delays associated with appeals\u201D; on 22 October 2003: \u201CIt is important that the process which requires legislative change, occurs as quickly as possible.\u201D; and on 3 December 2003 saying the bill is needed to achieve \u201Cexpedient\u201D decisions?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00226da68ae7ba494b78b8013faf1eb16fa2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226da68ae7ba494b78b8013faf1eb16fa2\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Easily. The legislation is about a time-bound process to develop a water allocation plan. It is not about favouring one proposal and moving it ahead of others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002269a27a6063f344f78c7976a4196d4c08\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister explain to the House the difference between the words \u201Creducing delays\u201D, \u201Cexpedient\u201D, \u201Censuring the process is as quick as possible\u201D, and \u201Cfast track\u201D, or is the only difference Government spin?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022675d02b1a3e14e3f8c1fbc69bf7ca1db\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I repeat that I think the member confuses process with the outcome. This Government makes no prediction about the outcome and, therefore, no prediction that the process is there to serve a certain outcome.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ac87860c297a44a7839a42e64c0f555a\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the local reaction to the legislation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be7173d58994499e86404101b2ad2907\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: It has been welcomed, as was made clear to me yesterday when I met local government representatives from the four consenting councils in Waimate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9b6ad485480456aa8f884cb71bf0a07\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: If the bill is not about fast tracking a favoured Government project, will the Minister consider giving up some of the extreme powers the bill gives her to hire and fire all the decision makers for both the water allocation process and the decisions on consents?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227182f38f5ca74fc0b952337edd5acd4d\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: The bill is about to go before a select committee, and I imagine that those finer points can be taken up in there. The question of hiring and firing does not necessarily concern the people who are appointed to the panels.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f02827c4667a48edaf4b804cfcb40d7f\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: What is the Minister\u2019s reaction to yesterday\u2019s Otago Daily Times editorial on the proposed legislation where comments such as: \u201Cthe Government seems intent on rewriting its own script.\u201D, \u201Cthe Government, working through Environment Minister Marian Hobbs, is hell-bent on getting Project Aqua up and running before the next election.\u201D, and finally, \u201CThis is an outrageous piece of legislation. It cannot be condoned.\u201D; and what is her reaction to that conservative newspaper\u2019s comments?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002200747fc7617e4213a9f8d390898a4f6c\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Furious, and I replied as such.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002225e36f4d9c0545edb6d900a8fb27607c\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: If the Minister claims that the bill is not about fast tracking, can she explain why clause 32 states that the Waitaki River plan cannot be appealed to the Environment Court\u2014and that river is the only river in which that would be the case\u2014and why clauses 49, 51, and 52 automatically give priority to fixtures before the Environment Court, severely limit the access of evidence, and put extra constraints on time; if that is not fast tracking, can she tell me what would be?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8408e5715364d50bd5f234ea90c1504\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I have always said, and said quite clearly in statements that have been quoted by that member, that we are about moving the process expeditiously. We are not about fast tracking one particular proposal. Reference to the hearing process in the clauses referred to by that member\u2014which is different in this legislation\u2014encourages the inquisitorial as opposed to the adversarial, and this lessens the need for appeal on fact rather than on process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aac0696db56b4be2aeb63a60fdea56aa\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Does the legislation give the Minister any decision-making powers over the use of Waitaki water?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227656ff31284b49229870f68b49888eec\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: No. The decisions will be made by an independent, expert statutory board and panel of commissioners, nominations for which I am seeking from the community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220ddffd1943c742afbcbc91c8809da1a6\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: How can the Minister describe the board and the panel of commissioners as independent, when she appoints them, the chair, and the deputy\u2014they serve solely at her pleasure\u2014and she can fire them at any time for any reason; and is this not about as independent as a Robert Mugabe judicial appointment?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220a3ec82cfc144c8a81123cb973db7f56\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Many appointments are made to many boards in this country by this Government. We seek people with a requisite range of skills. It is the manner in which they act, and who makes the final decision. That decision will be made by that board and is appealable to the courts, not to the Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ce46da51fdc94149bf656ce30146f033\u0022\u003EGangs\u2014Public Protection\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E11. Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First), on behalf of \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002218567ff2d40a48a78c0972ee1048f319\u0022\u003ERON MARK (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: In light of recent gang activity in Highbury, Wairoa, and Otaki, is he satisfied that current laws are sufficient to protect the public?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022 data-id=\u00220fb4e3038ff1433b9e5ade9695f4e79f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220fb4e3038ff1433b9e5ade9695f4e79f\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN (Minister of Transport)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Justice: Generally yes, but we can always do better.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002261c503ad9bb34856903ea600cdb61d7e\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister think it is a sad state of affairs that innocent women need to leave their own country and their families, because this Government has made it too dangerous for them to stay in this country, but when in Opposition for over 9 years Labour said it would \u201Ccrush the gangs\u201D but it has done nothing?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226401d5a090694ab7b28fb61144394e4d\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Firstly, it is unacceptable for gangs to intimidate people in the way the member describes. There is no question about that. However, it is not fair to say that nothing has been done. Law changes have been introduced and the police have been given extra resources. For example, new laws have been passed to crack down on participation in criminal gangs, and powers of investigation and interception have been beefed up. I am advised the Minister proposes further law changes to ensure the better targeting of criminal assets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cd544df63e944f3186424846bda72d5a\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: What has been the effect of the Government\u2019s changes to the law on participation in a criminal gang?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225000f219fe8e48f59d3c96b16b3ba791\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: Under section 98A of the Crimes Act, amended through the Transnational Organised Crime Bill last year, participation in a criminal gang is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. This law applies equally to patched members, prospects, or associates. The new law is increasingly being used to prosecute gang members\u2014with 16 prosecutions taken in the first 6 months of this year, compared with two for each of the previous 2 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254f8b37cddc946348cc9970c7fba4717\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that only by taking the profit out of crime will criminal gangs be stopped from the large-scale drug dealing\u2014especially methamphetamine\u2014that has enriched, empowered, and entrenched them in New Zealand, and if he does, and with reference to an earlier answer he gave, when will meaningful asset-seizure legislation proposals be put before Parliament?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ec9416cca6a04264be810f9174f8bfee\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I agree it is one measure that could crack down on gangs. It is, of course, not the only measure, but it is one, and I agree with the member that it is an important one. I know that the Minister has proposed law changes, but I am not aware of exactly when he intends to introduce those. I suggest the member put down a direct question to him.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022481f3977811641d08a78fc2f948e6990\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister doing anything at all, when we have the taxpayer having to foot the bill of over $460,000, since 2000, to relocate abroad, from this country, battered women and their families, because this Government has simply done nothing about the intimidation by these gangs, and when will he stop talking and do something?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a4cbda77242d47b284bd7b294f1fcf48\u0022\u003EHon PAUL SWAIN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not think it is fair to say the Government has done nothing. The Minister of Justice has been very, very diligent in improving not only the law and order portfolio but increasing the laws that oppose gangs and their activities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002202a43700d2734f3c9b74786f1ae88efd\u0022\u003EAlgerian Asylum Seeker\u2014Security Intelligence Service Inquiry\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002246b3bf229b0e4079a31da640a8538105\u0022\u003EKEITH LOCKE (Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service: Will the Government be holding an inquiry into the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service\u2019s handling of the Zaoui case in light of the loss of part of a videotape interview and the subsequent discovery of an audio tape of the interview with Mr Zaoui; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u00220daa1e4acc9c4b66a5e1ef668adfb646\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220daa1e4acc9c4b66a5e1ef668adfb646\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Acting Minister in charge of the NZ Security Intelligence Service):\u003C/span\u003E The Rt Hon Helen Clark will be receiving a full briefing on this issue when she returns from overseas, and no further comment will be made until she has had that briefing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022adefcbb2b31243898543b998c5d969b6\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept that the credibility of the Security Intelligence Service has been seriously dented by the lost and found audio tapes and the fact that Mr Zaoui was interviewed and videotaped without his knowledge and consent, and without his lawyer being allowed to be present?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc0eff937118423a8ddaa9bd1b3120e7\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: As I said, no further comment will be made until the Prime Minister, on her return, has received a full briefing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229643b28f5dc8487191b2c66bddd2c8e8\u0022\u003EDr Wayne Mapp\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Acting Prime Minister assure the House there will be no governmental interference in the role of the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, Justice Greig, in his review of the national security certificate issued in respect of Ahmed Zaoui?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209280d6196774959bdc85d1fb248779a\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely, and I welcome the member\u2019s support for that, when the Government is under so much pressure from a number of quarters asking it to intervene in that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7f5c2bad2b84ad8930e243b63368a51\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Why are we going to so much trouble and so much expense\u2014probably now $200,000\u2014in this case of a person who left Malaysia and falsified his entry into this country, in terms of documentation; how many Muslim countries did he bypass on the way to a supposedly Christian country?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224ee0669d5058490b84818705173e45eb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I think the answer to the latter part of the question is one, if I have my geography right\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022533678c7b3554b2787449faf1e2074cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Algeria to here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e385e7d1c11543578cb44b9fc095d93e\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I thought the member said from Malaysia to New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223874178fdd6f4e478c216aea91306656\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: That was the last one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f663aa5709946ba9323ff0fb5decad5\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: Or rather a lot from Algeria. Whether or not the member likes it, New Zealand is a country of the rule of law, and the process will be followed without Government interference.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221751f084a804fb5bf967259f1ffd07d\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Parliament is not allowed to scrutinise adequately the SIS, what steps is she taking, as the responsible Minister, to make sure the SIS is not so careless or devious with the use of its videotapes, audio tapes, and who knows what else?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead7a4ed77d94f70bad335a17938a720\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not accept the member\u2019s accusation of deviousness. Certainly there appears to have been some carelessness, but, as I said, the Prime Minister will be receiving a full briefing when she returns from overseas late this evening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d76ac05543a4774b4582e0f0ac01229\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. In replying to three of these questions, the Minister answering for the Prime Minister has said that he cannot answer the question because the Prime Minister will get a full briefing when she returns. This question was on the Order Paper. Surely the Minister should have been briefed to act as the Prime Minister and answer the questions adequately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c044f128175344e994763f774a37ad3a\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, because the answer the Minister gave was very specific that there will be a full briefing when the Prime Minister returns. I presume after that briefing, questions can be raised with her. The member has a final supplementary question if he wants one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b8383f38-c78c-4e5d-8324-677d91e95c49\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef9e5c12674f4f44af109e1df270b482\u0022\u003EKeith Locke\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that the inspector-general should consider Mr Zaoui\u2019s rights, particularly in the light of Cabinet papers establishing the inspector-general\u2019s position, which explicitly state that his role shall be to ensure that the activities of the SIS \u201Care consistent with human rights\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221a33459b547c4d8d9d62cc27babaaae8\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN\u003C/span\u003E: The Government will not comment on the way in which the inspector-general undertakes his statutory duties.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00221ec6b04c2a8641eaafd1043c526fa428\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002293aba1f0612743a896144638041f72c5\u0022\u003EGeneral Debates\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022 data-id=\u00226d9d95041f7e4dbfb66da0758066f8ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226d9d95041f7e4dbfb66da0758066f8ab\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the House take note of miscellaneous business. Looking back over the past year at achievements by this politically correct apology for a Government, we can only say that never before in the history of this once-great country have so many done so little, so often, for so few. [Interruption] Whom did I plagiarise that from? Well, not from Rod Donald. He is no wordsmith. He has a big mouth, but he is no wordsmith. Labour, once a great party of social and economic justice, has been taken over by a collection of creatures from a political \u201CMiddle Earth\u201D nightmare. This is a Government that is banal, bent, and full of weirdoes who deal in slogans, jingles, and clich\u00E9s.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226de7f1d9-7be9-468a-b27c-06000416b96a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022452537a87aea4f98a0abc6bbe51c4a96\u0022\u003EHon John Tamihere\u003C/span\u003E: Look in the mirror.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221fa2a78216d94996b26b9f8c5f931712\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: No, that is not my habit. That is the member\u2019s habit\u2014not mine. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EReal New Zealanders have become increasingly cynical about and disbelieving in the political process under this Government. No better is that illustrated than at question time in this House. There is no Western democracy where there is so little accountability, where Ministers think question time is a joke, and where they do their utmost to evade simple answers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002259e5aaf929844076a3ea087f68f97f95\u0022\u003EGovernment Member\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s not right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fdaf7babfe54b8888e6b91c438cdb92\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: I wrote to the Minister of Immigration in what she claimed was the most recent correspondence\u2014the operative word being \u201Crecent\u201D\u2014on 22 November. She wrote back and said that she had no idea of the fraudster I mentioned, even though his brother, an LLB from Dakar, says that he is here. The brother may know that\u2014and he knows the friends and relations\u2014but, of course, the Minister does not know that, and nor does her department. She boasted yesterday of catching eight people because of the department\u2019s new early-warning system. That is eight out of how many? Well, 190,000 people came here last year, all up, and of that number, in 4 months the department has found eight. The Minister is boasting about it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022662cf0d3e7b840fd88236de0f8d7fadc\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s 2 million.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221ac9793cd50435db28b9ea76d8bea90\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh no, she cannot say that. Those are tourists and visitors. The people down there in the ship right now are part of the 2 million people, but I am talking about the 190,000 that go into our register.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223b1b5881-3b86-4894-ac77-72905f786141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229024bcb776ca4965be2c4f648593dd1d\u0022\u003EHon Judith Tizard\u003C/span\u003E: So they have marks on their heads, have they?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022512bed1052524961bcae122300a2a4b2\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, no. What an excited laugh that member has. It is a bit of a give-away, really. I cannot tell members what I think it is, but it is a give-away. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThis Government is a bizarre group of political misfits\u2014and there are no \u201CMr Fits\u201D, just \u201CMiss Fits\u201D\u2014who have decided that New Zealand women aged 18 can become prostitutes, but that they cannot have a smoke! To combat teenage drinking, those no-hopers increased the price of port and sherry for the elderly. They have brought in tens of thousands of people from the Third World and from all over the world, and planted them in Auckland. Then we have a Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues. What has she done for Auckland? That must be the country\u2019s best-kept secret. I ask members to name just one little thing that she has done for Auckland. Nothing! There is not a sound from over there on the Government benches. The Minister with responsibility for Auckland Issues has done nothing for Auckland. The Government brings in all these tens of thousands of people\u201440,000 in 2002\u2014parks them in Auckland, and then claims it will get on top of Auckland\u2019s roading problems. What a joke that is! The Government imposes laws by stealth. It pleads the United Nations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EAhmed Zaoui should never have arrived here; that has cost $200,000 now. He will be in prison for a long, long time. He was not turned around\u2014and the Minister says she cannot tell us about him, because the privacy laws prevent her from doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003EThe Government has inflicted this country with an epidemic of political correctness, which has created men out of women and women out of men. Now women can become fathers. There must be a biological advance I am not aware of, but women now can become fathers. The hardest job in our future will be to train boys to become men. There is no accountability in this House. There is nothing but spin all the time\u2014vituperation, tirades, and no facts. [Interruption] Lianne Dalziel is giving a speech by way of interjection. Why will she not get up and defend herself? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022daece6d767e147e4a463bcbc2481e320\u0022\u003EOpposition Member\u003C/span\u003E: She should resign.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002224759e0f092e404388fb2733fda6013e\u0022\u003ERt Hon WINSTON PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, she should resign. She is incompetent. She is the worst Minister of Immigration any Western nation has ever had. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022 data-id=\u0022d209e4d9ffdb4511ae447dc4ec9990d0\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d209e4d9ffdb4511ae447dc4ec9990d0\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING (Minister of Health):\u003C/span\u003E What a historic day this is in the development of the relationship between Australia and New Zealand. Today Australia and New Zealand signed an agreement to establish a joint agency to regulate medicines and therapeutic products. It is significant that a treaty has been signed this year\u2014the 20th anniversary of the establishment of closer economic relations. This joint regulator is the culmination of many years of hard work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EToday I would like to congratulate all those who have been involved in this 9-year process of bringing together a joint regulator. I congratulate the Rt Hon Jenny Shipley, who in 1996 signed the first agreement that we would go into a joint regulator. I congratulate the Hon Neil Kirton, who in 1997 then continued the process of setting up the joint regulator. I congratulate Bill English, who from 1997 through to 1999 was involved in the setting up of the joint regulator. I congratulate Wyatt Creech, who in 1999 pushed it even further. Finally, I congratulate Georgina te Heuheu, who was also one of those who signed the last document in terms of setting up a joint regulator. That work was done over those years. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EWhen I became Minister in 1999, I looked at the work that had been done by the previous coalition Government of New Zealand First and National, and we decided that we would agree in principle to a joint regulator. I announced in October 2000 that the Government was committed to such an agency. In November 2002, I again affirmed that the Government had decided to continue with a joint regulator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EToday is a blue-ribbon day. However, I happen to know that the Australians are rather disappointed in the National Party, and the Minister has said that she intends to have a little chat with National Party members as to why they are not taking some credit for the work that has been done and why they are not looking seriously at our trans-Tasman relationship. This is the final part of the Trans-Tasman Mutual Recognition Arrangement, which was never finished. We have had an exemption for those products since 1998, and every year we have had to go back to get a further exemption. So it is a very blue-ribbon day today. I am very pleased that we have signed the treaty. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe joint regulator will protect the public from harm and ensure there is safety, quality, and efficiency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cafe9863e22c4495af8280185be1d45b\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It sells out our country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221c6ddd8537ba43648f305039cef1bfff\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: It stops friends of Winston Peters from selling products that contain arsenic, grass clippings, and those sorts of things\u2014something he does not care about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227705ad345db247109adf4a1962c067f3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. A member cannot get up and claim that friends of a member of Parliament are selling arsenic, though I know where it would be most properly used. A member cannot say that. She should be asked to withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253a7b1c0868f46bf9771652eb61d6345\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c41fb00d124c2c921ca686ecc0254a\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member is quite correct. The member will withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d52eebc857b84145b6529360af87ca0a\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I did withdraw and apologise. The idea of the joint regulator is to ensure that complementary medicines, pharmaceuticals, over-the-counter products, and medical devices reach the highest standard before they are given to the public of New Zealand. There may be members opposite who do not think it is very important to have strong regulations around the sale of products containing grass clippings, which people claim will fix someone\u2019s prostate problem. There are those who sell products containing arsenic and say the products are good for people; who sell products containing Viagra but do not say that, thus people do not know they are taking Viagra; who put mercury into products\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279b94178f3e540c3a670c4e6cd8e29d9\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: You might find out.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220c9eb2ee82a0455ab3b2b3d0ba66e7bd\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: That may well be of benefit to the member opposite. In fact, I recommend it to him. However, that is not what this Government or previous Governments\u2014including the Government that Winston Peters was in\u2014supports.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EToday, as I said, is a blue-ribbon day, a red-letter day, or whatever one wants to call it. We are very pleased to have signed the treaty and to now allow the legislation to be prepared for the establishment of that joint regulator. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223d49aeac-8adf-497b-9400-ab7bb077bb8d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228247abe18f7f49f7a17d4fb5a2b30cc3\u0022\u003ERt Hon Winston Peters\u003C/span\u003E: It won\u2019t get passed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229dded85fc47c4764868f5fb141a243ef\u0022\u003EHon ANNETTE KING\u003C/span\u003E: I predict that it will pass, when people see what is involved and start to listen to the arguments. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EI also ask what the reaction has been. I would like to share with the House the reaction of the New Zealand Medical Association, which put out a statement today that it makes considerable sense for such regulations to be consistent with our Australian counterparts, particularly for reasons of cost-effectiveness and of introducing higher standards. It supports what this Government and previous Governments have worked towards. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209a5b71a-ca7e-4e7c-9e09-f9e63f18aa12\u0022\u003EThe thing that really disappoints me is that ACT put out a statement that we ought to have mutual recognition, but that was rejected in ACT\u2019s own report.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022499013ad5b0e4d91bb8de686aa20be42\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022499013ad5b0e4d91bb8de686aa20be42\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E Last week, the Government made a very big mistake. UMR Insight polled a person in this complex, on behalf of the Prime Minister\u2019s poll-driven leadership. That exposes what is really going on on the ninth floor. Ministers should watch their backs, because the Prime Minister is conducting polls on them. Questions in the poll included: \u201CHow do you rate the performance of Michael Cullen, Annette King, Phil Goff, and Trevor Mallard?\u201D Pete Hodgson was noticeably absent. More important, when the Government pollsters polled on Parekura Horomia, the question asked how his performance was and another asked about John Tamihere. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhat is going on in the Prime Minister\u2019s mind? The poll was also very revealing about the Government\u2019s worries. It contained questions such as: \u201CIs the country becoming too politically correct?\u201D We could answer that question for the Prime Minister. Yes, it is. \u201CIs the Government guilty of telling you what to think?\u201D Yes, it is. There is no question about that. Here is one for the Rt Hon Winston Peters. \u201CIs the Government too soft on immigration?\u201D. Other questions include: \u201CAre there adequate police numbers?\u201D, and: \u201CDo you approve of the Government\u2019s handling of the foreshore?\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI say to members opposite that they should look out over the Christmas break. Their Prime Minister is polling them. Tellingly, one of the questions was: \u201CHas the Government\u2019s listening to M\u0101ori complaints gone too far?\u201D. This Government is polling on every little issue. \u201CIs there too much focus on M\u0101ori issues, to the detriment of the mainstream?\u201D [Interruption] The chief whip can chip in, but the Prime Minister is polling and the Government is scared. That is not political leadership. Leadership is creative. It is about charting a course. It is about mobilising people behind a clear set of principles. It is underpinned by good judgment, I say to the Prime Minister, not by the latest polling data. Leadership means making tough choices, not pandering to poll-driven, fleeting prejudices. It involves character, and it involves leading public opinion on difficult policy problems facing the nation. I tell the Prime Minister that leadership is not about polling techniques. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis Prime Minister is a follower, not a leader. This says that Helen Clark has only very rigid control, and very little else, to offer us. This Prime Minister cannot even consider a Cabinet reshuffle without seeking poll information on members of her own front bench. It says a great deal about Helen Clark\u2019s leadership that, having gained the people\u2019s fragile trust, she has done so little with it. Is Helen Clark leading on the foreshore and seabed debate? No, she is not. In fact, where is Helen Clark on matters relating to race relations in this country? I will tell members where she is; she is sitting on the ninth floor pouring over polling data, trying to get the answer right and trying to see whether poll results show her that John Tamihere would be a more popular Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs than Parekura Horomia. That is not leadership; that is a cynical manipulation of public opinion. It is political management devoid of vision, and it is limited only by the Prime Minister\u2019s narrow and selfish ambition to try to break records for longevity in office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis Prime Minister is no Dick Seddon. She is no Peter Fraser, and she is not even a Rob Muldoon. She does not belong in their company, I say to members of this House, because her approach to leadership is to ask poll respondents for their advice on how to lead. That is not leadership. Dick Seddon led public opinion; this Prime Minister just follows it. Peter Fraser had principles; this Prime Minister has only her polls\u2014and her number is up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022 data-id=\u00228bbf89a17d1944489041029a3254cb20\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228bbf89a17d1944489041029a3254cb20\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E It is high time that those who live off the earnings of criminal activities are made accountable, not only for the crimes they are charged with but for the onus of proof that their property has been lawfully obtained. If they cannot do that, then properties should be confiscated and the proceeds distributed back to the communities the criminals preyed on. It seems to me that we are getting nothing more than platitudes about getting tough on crime and getting tough on P. What the Government is doing is simply not enough. [Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229fe0ec139dc4db6bc290b72cae20b85\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I cannot hear the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203948a5fbbe443ca987401c8eb75fefc\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: Those members are not listening to the wise words here, Madam Speaker. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000314\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EThe drug P is a scourge upon this country, and this Government is doing precious little about it. The Government talks about education and about platitudes, but it does not get to the heart of the problem. It is a namby-pamby Government that is still trying to understand the problem let alone find decent solutions to protect the people of this country. Meanwhile, legislation introduced in Western Australia in 2001 has enabled authorities to confiscate all the assets of gangs, which are the primary producers and distributors of the drug P. The result has been to shift the burden of proof to members and associates of those gangs, and, in effect, to hit them in their wallets. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EIn this country, gangs manufacture 95 percent of the drug P yet we are sitting around on the edges not being able to do very much about it. We need to take account of how the Western Australians have approached this problem, which is to introduce something along the lines of a criminal organisation and gang property confiscation bill. Such legislation shifts the onus completely on to the gangs to prove that all their property has been lawfully obtained. It means that for once the good citizens of this country\u2014our law-abiding citizens\u2014do not now have to try to prove the illegality of the assets those gangs have. The onus will be reversed and it will be the gangs that will have to prove legality, in return. It makes sense. People talk about that as contravening the right of presumption of innocence. Why is it that the innocent are supposed to be the ones who play by the one-sided rules\u2014rules that bend over backwards to protect the offenders and the purveyors of misery through the drug culture, particularly with something like P? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003ERecently the drug P has been blamed for an upsurge in domestic violence that has led to a shortage of space in women\u2019s refuges. It is a drug associated with a huge amount of violence, and today I am reminded of the Coral Burrows case, in which the drug P was directly involved. According to the national alcohol and drug helpline, from 2002 to 2003 methamphetamine calls went up by 3,000 percent compared with cannabis calls, which just doubled. This is a scourge we must grasp before it takes hold of New Zealand and of New Zealand youth. Assets would be frozen until the State could confirm that, in the absence of proof of lawful acquisition and on the balance of probabilities, the resources of a gang or member of a gang were the result of criminal activity. At that point\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022802cb69b90b4471f95e127d9060d8622\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Who wrote this rubbish? I think the member wrote it himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002229f8a5343cd8481984b5b555f7c26cab\u0022\u003EMARC ALEXANDER\u003C/span\u003E: Certainly, it was nobody who came through an educational establishment under that Minister. Under his ministership, educational standards have gone absolutely out the window. It is time he went back to school. He should go back to private education and start learning himself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003EI come back to my point. Assets would be confiscated, to do some good and be returned to the community from which they have been stolen. If we want to reclaim our streets, our future, and our kids we need to give the police the tools to do the job. This Government has absconded from that responsibility. It will not give the police the tools they need. It will not resource them in terms of police numbers. It will not resource them in terms of the kind of legislation they need so they can go after gangs. It seems that it is always the innocent and law-abiding who have to suffer. It should not happen any more. It is time to take the gloves off and treat criminal organisations with the only weapon that will do the job\u2014that is, take away their ill-gotten gains. It is a kind of warfare we must wage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022 data-id=\u0022f95168b84543467f98564ff7c082fc15\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f95168b84543467f98564ff7c082fc15\u0022\u003EDr WAYNE MAPP (National\u2014North Shore):\u003C/span\u003E In this last general debate of the year there is one question: who owns the beaches? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWhen we sit here on this side of the House, we hear confusion, we hear chaos, and we do not get answers. Not once has the Government given a clear answer to the public of New Zealand, through Parliament, about who owns the beaches. The reality is, the Government is in a shambles. It is in a complete mess on this issue. It cannot satisfy its M\u0101ori caucus and it cannot assure other New Zealanders that they will be able to go to the beaches this summer. No wonder there is trepidation. There is confusion, and that is why protest movements are being mounted right now that will stop New Zealanders from going on to beaches. That is the simple proposition. It is a marked contrast to the 1990s, when National had to deal with difficult issues around those kinds of things. But did we have this kind of delay? Did we have months and months of speculation? No, we had solutions; that was the difference. The Labour Government goes by polls; we went by solutions in the 1990s. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EIt will surprise the House to know that the Government cannot even guarantee Crown ownership of the seabed and foreshore. Yet that is exactly what the Prime Minister promised New Zealanders back in August last year. It is now just before Christmas 2003, and New Zealanders are still waiting for the answer. What did we hear today? Oh, no, the Government is talking about proposals yet to be finalised. No wonder it is accused of duplicity. That is what is happening. But some things are clear. We have heard what Minister Tamihere has said. Ministers have said to Te Ope Mana a Tai that there can be manu whenua customary title. The reality is\u2014because the law books say so\u2014that customary title is the equivalent of a fee simple title. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003ESo the Government has to answer these key questions today: will the manu whenua customary title\u2014because it has already agreed to it, apparently\u2014include full development rights? Maybe Mr Samuels can answer this: will those full development rights lead to the exclusive use and control of the seabed, the foreshore, and the beaches? If that is the case, the Government will not be able to deliver on its commitment to full public access. The Government cannot have it both ways. It cannot give to M\u0101ori exclusive customary mana whenua title, equivalent to fee simple, and at the same time guarantee full public access. That is a simple proposition that has been asked. The Minister on his feet right now, Mr Tamihere, could take the next call and tell the House which of those two propositions is true. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EWe would ask the Government to guarantee Crown ownership. Instead, it looks as though the Government will repeal section 9A of the Foreshore and Seabed Endowment Revesting Act. The reason I say that is because section 9A of that Act states that all land that is foreshore and seabed \u201Cshall be land of the Crown\u201D. That is a simple proposition that guarantees everyone access. It benefits every single New Zealander, no matter what his or her ethnicity is. Instead, the Minister said yesterday that it is simply \u201Cdeemed\u201D to be land of the Crown. I do not know how it can be more specific than the words \u201Cshall be land of the Crown\u201D. Why on earth would we use concepts like \u201Cpublic domain\u201D to replace a clear idea of Crown ownership that has been well understood for hundreds of years? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022df788c48-b9be-42fd-b8f2-76629a5572b8\u0022\u003EThe Government has now raised this proposition of the subdivision of the beaches, foreshore, and seabed amongst various claimants\u2014and there are hundreds of them in the wider community.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7c487c304eb48e88a041f3e8a9bdd6d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7c487c304eb48e88a041f3e8a9bdd6d\u0022\u003EHon RICK BARKER (Minister for Courts): \u003C/span\u003EIt is very interesting to note that during this general debate in the House the Leader of the Opposition, Don Brash, has stayed silent. And well might he stay silent, because when the National Party leaves at the end of this year to go on a summer holiday and, over the barbecue, look at the year of 2003, it will look in retrospect and see what it managed to achieve.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENational started out the year slumped in the polls, and it is still there. It changed the leadership, woke up the next morning after it had done so, and said: \u201COh dear, what have we done? We\u2019re still slumped in the polls.\u201D It is now competing with New Zealand First to retain the position of being the major Opposition party. National has no hope of winning in 2005. It changed the deputy leader\u2014that was a big mistake, yet again\u2014and the only good point to have come out of the year for National is that Bill English is finally looking as though he has a glimpse of the X factor. The dumb part of that is: the party had just dumped him as its leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe National Party has been dealt another blow, which came in a column in the Sunday Star-Times as a result of the book New Zealand Votes: the 2002 General Election. Jonathan Milne said: \u201CThe glory days are all in the past for the National Party. That is a conclusion drawn from an eight-year $1 million-plus study into how New Zealand politics has changed \u2026\u201D Nigel Roberts told the columnist: \u201CI would say it means that National, for the first time, has to start pushing water uphill \u2026 I think we\u2019re seeing the potential for a significant long-term change.\u201D Mr Nigel Roberts has it exactly right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe change started, in actual fact, in the 1960s and 1970s. There was a fundamental shift in New Zealand politics. The National Party led New Zealand into war in Vietnam; the Labour Party brought the troops home. The National Party was prepared to sell New Zealanders\u2019 bodies for sheep exports. National failed New Zealand. We have an echo of this today in the war in Iraq. National wanted New Zealand to join the United States of America in the war in Iraq; Labour said it did not because it supported internationalism and international institutions like the United Nations. The rest of New Zealand agrees with the Labour position; the National Party again finds itself on the wrong side of the political void.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ELabour supports a nuclear-free New Zealand; National embraced it, but unwillingly. Again, that policy started to shift in the 1960s and 1970s, but National was locked into a 1950s values set. The same values held by the National Party saw it invite the Springboks to New Zealand; again, Labour was opposed to that. The same set of narrow values the National Party clings to sees it being very negative towards our indigenous people, the M\u0101ori of New Zealand. National wants to abolish M\u0101ori seats; Labour supports them. Labour is a positive, inclusive party; National is exclusive. The National Party wants to abolish the Ministry of Women\u2019s Affairs; Labour says that is not a good policy and we want to have all our people doing well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EAnother policy that shows the great divide in New Zealand is National\u2019s embrace of a right-wing orthodoxy from the United States concerning work for the dole. Labour says we need to encourage people into work positively. When Labour came to power in 1999, there were 138,000 people registered on the unemployment benefit. There are now 88,000 people\u2014a huge improvement. It shows the difference between a positive policy and a negative policy. The National Party has negative policies and is a punitive party; Labour supports positive policies for positive change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ENational wants to take other leaps back into the past. National, led by Don Brash, wants to recommence asset sales; Labour says that asset sales are finished\u2014in fact, we have built a new bank. Labour wants to progress things for working people and we are legislating for 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave; Don Brash\u2019s team wants to take annual leave off working people. National offers New Zealand old values. That is what this survey has found, and there is a huge divide.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003ELabour is looking to the future. Labour is looking to an inclusive society. Labour is looking to promote the things that make New Zealand a much better place. We want to promote our indigenous culture and say: \u201CThis is who we are as a people.\u201D We want to be good citizens on the world stage and do the right thing by the United Nations and other institutions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002203bc0052-6dd8-4807-998a-4768a4732e0b\u0022\u003EThe National Party wants to follow those values that led New Zealand down through the paths of the cold war and into Vietnam. The National Party is locked in the past, and over the Christmas holidays it will be searching to discover how it can find a way to make old-fashioned, 1950s policies and attitudes attractive to New Zealand\u2014or how it can jump the divide and follow Labour into building a positive and inclusive society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u00223140560ce15f43b58d70dfa96cb86e5d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223140560ce15f43b58d70dfa96cb86e5d\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Greens oppose the Government\u2019s current school network review process. A number of our members have been involved with many of the communities that are affected by network reviews and, in a few cases, there has been some agreement that it is appropriate for schools to close. It is true that some schools are failing, and without intervention and support they will simply flounder until they do\u2014inevitably\u2014close. On a case by case basis, school closures are a normal part of the administration of the Ministry of Education, but this current process is not normal. It is not done on a case by case basis. It affects not only those schools that need to close for sound educational reasons but also those schools with growing rolls, community support, and excellent Education Review Office reports. Such schools are also under threat of closure in this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThis process is a full-scale, purposeful attempt to rationalise all schools, in order to extract from those closures money that will eventually be put towards the consolidated account. Through this process the community, parents, and children who suffer this are promised a chance to contribute, but in the end their views, informed by knowledge of the children\u2019s educational and social needs and by their experience of their wider communities, will not prevail over the ministry\u2019s agenda.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000337\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe guiding principle for the Greens\u2019 approach to network reviews and school closures is that children belong in their own communities. From this principle, the first issue to focus on is the quality of education for children. One of the criteria for quality education is access to education that is local and community-focused. Support for children in their own communities means that children know the people around them, children are known by name, and children feel secure in their environment and confident that the place is their place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E Another guiding principle for the Greens is that the proposed changes are analysed in terms of community development. We want to ensure that the infrastructure of communities is maintained as part of our support for regional areas. Keeping integrity with regional development is absolutely crucial if we want to build economic and social viability in regional areas and relieve cities of the increased pressure on infrastructure from increased population growth. There must be good services for families in rural and regional areas, as part of a national strategy for viable communities in all parts of Aotearoa New Zealand. Dynamic communities, in economic, social, and cultural terms, are to be the expectation of city people, rural people, and those in more isolated communities alike. Regional development means commitment to all communities. It involves recognition of the contributions to national life from regional sectors, with a commitment to maintaining opportunities for enterprises that are in jeopardy where the weight of resources is available only in the cities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Greens consider that schools are a community resource, and we believe that an assessment of community resources must be part of any school closure process. Schools tend to be a focus for communities and foster social cohesion and shared activities. School classrooms are used for lots of different community activities\u2014adult education, libraries, and information rooms. It is precisely this cooperative approach to schools that creates the cohesive community. For some in rural areas the school is the best resource in their community. It is a centre for children, for families, for local health and sporting interests, for community groups and services, and for informal networks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000340\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe priority must be the provision of a high-quality education for our children, but communities have been told by ministry officials that although educational outcomes are a priority, the network reviews are about responding to changing demographics, which means responding to falling rolls in schools. It is therefore possible that schools with excellent Education Review Office reports and growing rolls are to be closed. Existing professional relationships between teachers within a community are undermined in the restructuring, leading to an extended period of uncertainty in a school, which adds unnecessary stress.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EThe Minister has said that falling rolls make this full-scale process necessary, but many parents and educators have noted that falling rolls bring opportunities for reduced class sizes, which are educationally beneficial. There have been calls for reduced class sizes for years. Although there are increasing numbers of teachers, class sizes are not reducing. But the ministry also recognises there are increased numbers of children with learning difficulties who could benefit from just a little extra attention to their specific needs. Reduced class sizes would have a huge impact on relieving teacher workloads, enabling better class management and providing some individual time for each child. Those are good things, which this Minister should be promoting, but, instead, he is fuelling existing disparities.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00226bcfa16cd63741eba212498cbfbefe3e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bcfa16cd63741eba212498cbfbefe3e\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Although I want to talk about the environment, as a former educationalist I cannot resist speaking about education. To hear that last speaker not equate high quality and falling rolls seems to me absolutely duplicitous. It is good to have small classrooms, but if there is nil subject choice, then the school is not offering anything to those children. I can only think of the children in one of the smallest secondary departments of an area school in New Zealand\u2014halfway between Blenheim and Nelson\u2014who wrote to me the other day. They would rather pay for private transport to get them to bigger schools with subject choice than be confined in a secondary school with only 26 students. That is the sort of issue being faced. That is what they mean about quality. To denigrate that and say that that is somehow demographics and not unpick what demographics means is, to my mind, dishonest debating. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EBut I want to concentrate a little on something that the Labour-Progressive Government, which is a good, strong Government, has been clear on this year. It has been clear on the direction and leadership it has shown on the environment. It has shown a strong, clear leadership\u2014unlike the confused and contradictory utterances from ACT and National, which I will come to. I turn to a little of our record this year. The Ministry for the Environment\u2019s job is to clean up the mistakes of the past. I turn to an area near the electorate of the Opposition spokesperson for the environment, namely Mapua. This is a horrible site where an agrichemical factory once was, and where the chemicals leach out into the estuary. For years nothing was done, but now, as of the passing of the resource consents, the ministry is on its way to do the first part of a major clean-up that may cost as much as $9 million. This Government is prepared to work with local government to achieve that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EBut we do not leave it there\u2014we go to Lake Taupo. Land around Lake Taupo opened up in the 1960s, when a certain former Prime Minister drove a road down the western side of the lake and opened up an extraordinary amount of land to agriculture. The agriculture and farming that have gone on that land have contributed to the growth of nitrate and the lessening of clarity inside that particular lake. If we left it for 40 years, we would be looking at a Rotorua lakes problem. We would have lost one of our great assets, yet we are out there working with Environment Waikato, working with the farmers, working with Ng\u0101ti Tuwharetoa, working with the Taupo District Council, and with money\u2014an uneven amount again\u2014from central Government, to support a way to reverse the decline. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EIt goes again for the Rotorua lakes, which for years had a disgusting habit of disposing of sewage straight on to the bottom of the lakes. They did change that, and they did it with the help of previous Governments, but they did not do a helluva good job. We are now having to work to try to find some instant ways, as well as some long-term ways, of cleaning it up. What did the National Party members do about that? When they campaigned at the last election in 2002, they wanted a royal commission on the question. What did Labour do? Labour got in there, boots and all, worked with local government, and put up the money. It is in there, getting some solutions. There is no royal commission here\u2014we got in there and delivered on it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EWe have been showing leadership in waste strategy. We have been working out there with the sectors, working out with the tyre mountains that my good colleague always brings me from Hamilton. A number of other issues are out there. We have put up funds\u2014millions of dollars\u2014for biodiversity on private land. We recognise that farmers do care about that land and want to make some changes to it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EIn the hazardous substances Act, and in the work that we did there this year, we had guts. Yes, public pressure was out there. Yes, there were polls, but on that occasion we set up a royal commission\u2014on a divided subject\u2014to listen to people. When it said \u201Cproceed with caution\u201D, that is exactly what we did. That is leadership. We have ensured that the Environmental Risk Management Authority is fit to deliver the answers and the advice. We have shown good, firm leadership. We did not play political games and shift votes at the last moment because we thought the issue was just a little bit hot. We had some guts. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EAre we caring about the future? You bet we are. We hold youth environment forums, and I get letters back from kids, saying: \u201CI am revved up and wanting to go. I actually want to engage in these issues.\u201D This is not about cuddling furry bears. This is out there; it is about cleaning up lakes. But what does the National Party do, and how confusing does it get?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u0022db96d20030ee4f878740b56e8be77cc8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db96d20030ee4f878740b56e8be77cc8\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Earlier this year the Minister of Education told the House that he believed that it was morally reprehensible and probably illegal for teachers to be paid additional salary for having foreign fee-paying students in their classrooms. I agree with him. We have teachers who have to integrate new immigrants into their classrooms, and they do not get any extra pay for that. We have teachers who have to include special-needs students in their classrooms, and they do not get any extra pay for that, so why should teachers who have foreign fee-paying students? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut the same applies to principals. Some principals are very good at tapping into discretionary grants. Do they get any extra pay for bringing additional revenue into their schools? No. Some principals are good fundraisers. Do they get extra salary for the extra revenue they bring into their schools? No, but I want to tell this House that there is one group that does get extra pay, that gets bonuses, over and above what they are paid to look after the interests of the New Zealand students in their schools. That group is the principals who have managed to recruit high numbers of foreign fee-paying students\u2014and it is with the blessing and the encouragement of this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThis is how the scheme works: boards of trustees can write to the Ministry of Education and ask it to make an additional payment to their principal. New Zealand First asked some questions around this particular issue. The questions we asked were: \u201CHow many boards of trustees of secondary schools have requested approval to pay their principals an additional emolument because of the additional workload created by foreign fee-paying students in 2001, 2002, and 2003?\u201D We went on to ask how many requests had been approved for each year. The answers were enlightening. In 2001, 10 requests were received and eight were approved. In 2002, 38 requests were received and 33 were approved, and in 2003, 51 requests were received and 38 were approved. Thirty-eight principals get bonuses for recruiting high numbers of foreign fee-paying students. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThey do not get any bonuses for getting high academic standards in their schools\u2014no bonuses are allowed for that. They do not get any bonuses, for example, for closing the gaps\u2014they are not allowed to get bonuses for that. But they are allowed to get bonuses for recruiting high numbers of foreign fee-paying students, and that is where all the incentives are within our schools. The Government is encouraging the process, and hordes of principals leave these shores each year on recruitment drives\u2014all funded out of boards of trustees\u2019 money\u2014to recruit as many foreign fee-paying students as they can. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe cannot blame the boards. Each student can be worth as much as $10,000 to the school, and when there are 200 or 300 of them, that turns into a fairly large amount of money. But there are many secondary schools in areas such as Kaitaia that do not have the capacity to attract foreign fee-paying students, so the resources they have available to their students are far, far fewer. If students can be fitted into already existing classes, there is no extra cost at all to the school. The only extra cost is upon the teacher, and the teacher does not get any additional payment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThis is a tawdry affair. Principals are paid by the taxpayer to look after the interests of New Zealand students in their schools, not the interests of foreign fee-paying students. If they claim that foreign fee-paying students provide much-needed resources, that is fine. But why are they being paid extra for doing it? That is their job. It is a principal\u2019s job to maximise the resources within the school. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIf they claim that foreign fee-paying students add additional experience of other cultures to New Zealand students, why are we allowing foreign students to be enrolled in such numbers that they do not need to intermingle or be immersed? It defeats the very purpose of them coming into New Zealand schools. Surely that is not the appropriate course of action to take. There is no limitation upon the number or proportion of students who can come into our schools. The other reality that makes a mockery of that claim is that this Government\u2019s immigration policy ensures that New Zealand students have plenty of exposure to peers of different nationalities, ethnicities, and languages\u2014particularly if the students live in Auckland. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EDoes this Government allow bonuses to be paid to a principal for inspired educational leadership? The Minister is there, so I ask him whether boards of trustees can say: \u201CLook, we have got a brilliant principal here, he has done a wonderful job, can we pay him a bonus?\u201D The answer is no. Is a board able to do that if, for example, it can demonstrate that the principal\u2019s leadership is leading to very high levels of academic achievement? The answer is no.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022 data-id=\u0022b0e29a073bbb4671a1cedb6e82abb3ee\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b0e29a073bbb4671a1cedb6e82abb3ee\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER (Labour\u2014Wairarapa):\u003C/span\u003E It is wonderful to speak in the general debate, particularly at this time of the year. It is the last general debate for this session of Parliament, so on a personal level I express season\u2019s greetings and felicitations to all members of the House. It is a time of year, of course, when one reflects on things that have occurred throughout the year. On a personal level I say to National Party members that I understand the angst they have experienced, particularly towards the latter part of this year. The beginning of the year was a bit lacklustre as well, but it fared a little better than what they have since experienced. But we will tarry on that a little later. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EThe Government can reflect on a pretty solid year and a very good year. It is one in which we cannot bask in any kind of glory, but one in which we know that we have delivered consistently, since we came into Government in 1999, on the commitments we said we would deliver on, and we have improved upon them in this second term leading the Government of this country. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EWe have a leadership that is enviable. It is envied, not only by other parties in this House I dare say, but also by people overseas. I can testify to that being the truth. When I have travelled on some international trips there has been a respect for Helen Clark in the international arena for her forthrightness and for leading a stable Government. Some have actually expressed the wish that she was their Prime Minister. I believe that is an endorsement that would be envied by the leader of any party in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E But as we reflect upon the year that the National Party has enjoyed, or otherwise, one can only admire the courage and stickability of National members. They are scratching their way towards the end of the year. They have had, as I have mentioned before, a turbulent time. They have had leadership problems that no one else has had, except possibly the Labour Party, which in the far distant past went through the similar angst that National is going through. So who did National members choose after they dumped Bill English? It was the wonderfully effervescent and charismatic Don Brash. He is the right honourable leader of the National Party, but even that coup was dithery. They dithered and faltered and could not get the roll-out of the leadership coup over to the public or even amongst themselves. I understand that there were National Party members running around like headless chooks wondering who was the leader that day and, more important, who was deputy leader at all, at one time. In the last little while they have been through something like six deputy leaders in as many years. It has been quite a lot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003EAs to the leader, people had to drink coffee profusely at a New Zealand Chambers of Commerce and Industry meeting up in Auckland some time ago. They were falling asleep, and that is a shame. Then, at that wonderful world event the premiere of The Lord of the Rings, which has been supported superbly by this Government, I cast my eyes around and looked at the leader of the National Party and his beautiful and wonderful wife wandering around looking lost. Nobody could quite recognise who they were or whether, indeed, they were sitting in the right theatre. They had been packed off to the Reading theatre, not the Embassy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b95b62dd9015469ea056a1ef44a26b05\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He didn\u2019t want to sit next to Heather.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226f6e1ae1-8aa5-4f71-8e73-30bb378026c4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e9186395bf28402fa367811ce36582f3\u0022\u003EGEORGINA BEYER\u003C/span\u003E: He did not want to sit next to Heather Simpson. I understand now, it is all clear. The leader of the National Party likens himself to a lifeless puppet\u2014an effigy that has recently been erected at the Back Bencher Pub and Cafe, just across the road. It is a lifeless puppet. Of course, one has to ask whether it is a puppet operated by string or a hand puppet. If it is a hand puppet, we could forgive the Leader of the Opposition, when reflecting upon this year, for thinking that it has indeed been an annus horribilis.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaa90f22754b45aaa70b108190a35ec9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaa90f22754b45aaa70b108190a35ec9\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The Minister of Health stood up before to gloat over the signing today of the Australia - New Zealand joint agency agreement. She was gloating, in her anti-business way, over the fact that she will be responsible for driving small businesses manufacturing dietary supplements, out of business. She asked in the speech she made in this House what she has achieved. Well, I can tell members what she has achieved by ignoring the Health Committee inquiry into dietary supplements and complementary medicines, and including those products in the joint agency. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EI have in front of me some products that are safe and popular. They are available to New Zealanders now, but they are not available in Australia. The products are: Joint Care with MSM, which is not available in Australia; Immunofort, with specific vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and herbs, which is not available in Australia; Desiccated Liver, which is not available in Australia but which is very good for us; and Enzyme Complex. It is very interesting that the Minister of Health said yesterday that garlic was excluded. Of course, there is a very good reason for that\u2014Government members need garlic to drive the vampires away! I also have some multivitamins, minerals, and selenium products that are available here but not in Australia. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003ESelenium is deficient in the soils of the South Island, and, if the Government has its way, people will not be able to supplement their diet with selenium from tablets, either. People from the South Island, like Clayton Cosgrove, will be left to join the sheep at the salt lick to get their selenium supplies. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EAnnette King thinks that the products I have here are dangerous products. She thinks they are so dangerous that they must be subject to the toughest regulations in the world\u2014those of the Australians. Well, I am not afraid of these products and I am happy to prove it. I am from the South Island and I do not mind taking the selenium tablet that I have here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022893adc11-ce4e-419c-a079-08f04b3d75f5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222f07bac7285f433897a8b8c8f13d9957\u0022\u003ELindsay Tisch\u003C/span\u003E: How was it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022356a2815d0784ea1bb0ce860c1893671\u0022\u003EHEATHER ROY\u003C/span\u003E: It went down great. Sixty-six percent of New Zealanders are like me and are not afraid to take these products, either. They think that we do not need the tough regulations that the Australians are going to impose on these very safe products.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003E So are these products really dangerous? I have here a chart that one of the submitters, who has subsequently been ignored by the Minister of Health and this arrogant Labour Government, presented to us at the select committee. It lists the fatalities in New Zealand. They are: deaths caused by cancers\u20147,582; adverse drug reactions from prescription medications\u20141,524, and it is right and proper they should be subject to very rigorous scrutiny; traffic accidents\u2014531; food\u2014an estimated 75, and that is ordinary food not food supplements; working for the Government\u20142.5 deaths. That is very interesting. No one told me when I came to Parliament that I was in danger of losing my life, and quite where the remaining 0.5 of a life goes is anybody\u2019s guess. Perhaps the Labour members might stand and tell us how they will cause that. But, interestingly, natural health-care and therapeutic products have been responsible for, surprise, surprise, no deaths\u2014none at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226c1d5df8-ac1d-4ce1-a778-202845cfc69f\u0022\u003EThis Government has committed this country to require that these safe and popular products be subjected to rigorous scrutiny. I have here another product Boost. It contains folic acid, which has been shown to prevent spina bifida. I am not afraid of this one, either; let us have some of that. The recorded decrease in the number of babies born with spinal defects is thought to be the result of an increased number of women taking folate in the early stages of pregnancy. In fact, folate has been so beneficial it has been suggested that bread should be fortified, but there is a bit of a hold up at the Ministry of Health. Under the proposed legislation this type of bread would have to be rigorously tested to ensure that it meets the highest standards of scrutiny. The cost, of course, would be high. But it is often the case that when a country embraces socialism, in the way this Labour Government has, that bread ends up being rationed. Indeed, it is a logical extension of the current Government\u2019s lurch towards a centrally planned everything that every citizen\u2019s dietary requirements will have to be passed by this Labour Cabinet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2f1396dae124fd0a0a0a652ade52c69\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2f1396dae124fd0a0a0a652ade52c69\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yesterday in this House I was much maligned. I returned to my office after question time to hear some random, ranting Tory\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3294e002ca44e10b906fde909b4df94\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Random is a bit much!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e53a45fa6364b5fb90aa7fea512b1ab\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: True\u2014telling mistruths about my activities in a select committee I do not belong to. So I came down to the House to defend myself against that, not actually knowing who had said it. Now I could be excused for looking at the usual suspects\u2014Mr Simon Power and Mr John Key\u2014but after I had made my point I was informed it was actually the Hon Roger Sowry who had made those vicious comments, and it all came clear. Mr Sowry is the most bitter man in the National Party\u2014unlucky No. 13\u2014a man who accused me of reading New Idea, which is ironic given that he has a lifetime subscription to \u201CNo Idea\u201D. It surprises me that Mr Sowry even has time to notice what goes on in his select committee, given that his nose is constantly stuck in the situations vacant column of all the newspapers in this country. I ask Mr Sowry not to come begging to me for a reference, particularly regarding his observation skills.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe trans-Tasman ratings have been causing a bit of conversation amongst MPs this week. People have been debating the various rankings people got, and whether they deserved them. But the one thing everyone agrees on is the comment on the abilities of National\u2019s dumped deputy. What did it say? It said he deserved his demotion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022861a4602cb4544bbb9025c5f3f44aacb\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022febb17746237424c9bc82da190fe72fc\u0022\u003EMOANA MACKEY\u003C/span\u003E: Roger Sowry\u2014he deserved his demotion. He is unpleasant, ineffective, and a career as a shoe salesman beckons. He is unpleasant and ineffective. Well, I can certainly concur with the first part of that statement, and my colleague Darren Hughes and the voters of Otaki can certainly concur with the second part. But, to be fair, it cannot be easy for him to lose to someone half his age\u2014someone who was not even at high school when he first came to Parliament.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThat is symptomatic of the National Party\u2019s wider problem when it comes to young voters. The party is outdated. While the Labour Party is selecting and electing young candidates into Parliament, National is making Don Brash its leader.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s achievements for young New Zealanders are significant and speak for themselves. We are committed to the goal of ensuring that by 2007 all 15 to 19-year-olds will be engaged in education, training, or work\u2014leading them to financial independence. We have already reached our target of 6,000 Modern Apprenticeships. We piloted the Gateway programme, which is now in 62 schools around this country. We have introduced the primary health strategy so that all 6 to 17-year-olds who are enrolled are now eligible for low-cost health care.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have replaced the draconian Employment Contracts Act with the fairer Employment Relations Act. Young people all too often were faced with \u201Ctake it or leave it\u201D employment negotiations, and this Labour-led Government has rectified that problem. We have increased the minimum wage four times in 4 years. To make sure that all young New Zealanders can take part and participate, we have the lowest unemployment in 16 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWe have made tertiary education more affordable. We have removed the interest from student loans while students are studying. Student loan debt forecasts are now down $2.6 billion, largely due to this Government\u2019s policies. We are going to increase the eligibility for allowances. We froze fees and brought in fee maxima so that students now know that their fees will not increase by more than 5 percent each year, which is far better than the situation I faced in the 1990s when I was at university. We have introduced fees and loan help for secondary teachers and for health sector trainees, in the form of scholarships.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002270dd644d-8bcf-40dc-998a-887d62d24a76\u0022\u003EWhat did the National Party do? The National Party cut student support in the 1990s. It cut family support, and it cut health spending. What can we look forward to if the National Party is elected into Government with Don Brash as its leader? I say to all young New Zealanders that they can expect more cuts. They can expect to pay more for their tertiary education. They can expect to pay more for their health care. Young New Zealanders growing up in families close to the breadline can expect to face far greater pressures, and to have families who are not coping because of cuts in family support. The National Party that made those cuts in the 1990s is still saying it will make them again. That is the scary thing about this National Party; it has not changed its policies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022 data-id=\u0022816c5bcdb41847dfa5a056da6ee130b9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224ad02d80-0242-43c0-a0b6-862d72b3f978\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022816c5bcdb41847dfa5a056da6ee130b9\u0022\u003EBRENT CATCHPOLE (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I would just like to challenge a point the previous speaker made about No. 13 being an unlucky number. Well, I can assure the member that 13 is not an unlucky number. I am here to prove it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb39ee80c4ca4b1f868f33af33e0e44b\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member knows that that is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003EThe debate having concluded, the motion lapsed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00223592ea202cde42d5aa7fe1f82548f9ca\u0022\u003EResource Management (Waitaki Catchment)Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00224c2a20df377247a18c4fe8f4f616d411\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022d8eb43c7ac1e4a6fb5ef06b9a1b52e79\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d8eb43c7ac1e4a6fb5ef06b9a1b52e79\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee for consideration, with an instruction to the committee to present its final report to the House by 15 March 2004, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting, except during questions for oral answer, during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Resource Management Act to deal with significant competing proposals seeking to use the limited water resources of the Waitaki catchment, and provides a process whereby the merits of the various applications can be considered. As it stands, there is no regional water plan to guide the allocation of water in this catchment. In the absence of such a plan, the Resource Management Act alone cannot provide a good mechanism for determining what is the best use for the water\u2014irrigation, hydroelectricity, or enhanced in-stream protection. Without this bill and the statutory board it establishes, the consent authorities, in order to devise the water allocation plan for the catchment, would have been considering and making decisions on the large number of resource consent applications in a policy vacuum.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThis bill, and the processes it establishes, will ensure that environmental, social, economic, and cultural issues are addressed. It will also ensure that local, regional, and national issues are appropriately considered. The bill\u2019s aim is to achieve a fair, prompt, and transparent decision-making process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThis bill applies only to the Waitaki catchment. We are working at pace to address water allocation issues under the sustainable development programme of action. However, it was obvious to us that the work would not be completed in time to address the very pressing issues of the Waitaki catchment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThe bill provides for the strategic allocation of water in the Waitaki catchment by setting up a two-stage process. An independent body, the Waitaki Catchment Water Allocation Board, will develop a water allocation framework. The policy document prepared by this board will then provide the basis for decisions under the second stage, when a panel of commissioners will make decisions on the significant applications to use water. Some applications will be processed by councils in light of the policy framework developed by the board.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ETo those who accuse the Government of introducing this bill in order to promote certain projects\u2014for example, Meridian Energy\u2019s product, Project Aqua\u2014read my lips: Project Aqua, like all the applications for Waitaki water, will stand or fall on its own merits under the Resource Management Act. For those who seek to make comparisons between this bill and the National Development Act Repeal Act concerning the Clyde Dam, I point out that the Government of the time overrode the decision of the planning tribunal, by legislating to ensure the dam went ahead. That is very different from this Waitaki bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EWe need more energy, but whether Project Aqua will proceed must be considered in light of its environmental, social, and economic effects at local as well as national level. The objective is an improved process. The Ministry of Economic Development has commissioned work to look at our energy situation with and without Project Aqua. That information will be presented to the statutory body and be available for anyone to submit to the board on. In respect of membership of the statutory board and panel of commissioners, I will be calling for nominations, and seeking to appoint high-calibre people with the appropriate range of expertise who can make an independent assessment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EThis bill is not about reinventing the Resource Management Act. Tools and processes already exist within that Act, and they are used for this bill. The Resource Management Act sets out the matters that should be included in a regional plan\u2014for example, issues, policies, and rules. It also establishes principles for managing a public resource like water, by providing for individual domestic needs, for example. Techniques such as allowing for transfer of water permits and reviewing conditions of consent are already contained in the Resource Management Act. The public will have the opportunity to submit to the board on the water allocation framework, and to the panel on the competing applications. The Government has also put aside some funds to assist those wishing to make submissions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003EI reiterate that the bill\u2019s aim is to achieve a fair, prompt, and transparent decision-making process. To facilitate that, the board\u2019s decision will be open to appeal to the High Court on points of law. Given its specific function and expertise, it would be unusual for such a board to have its factual findings challenged. Decisions by the panel of commissioners will be appealable to the Environment Court. However, appellants will not be able to introduce new evidence at that stage. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003ECollectively, these changes to the Resource Management Act set up an enhanced process for making decisions on applications for the use of water in the Waitaki catchment\u2014both in current proposals and for future uses. The bill responds to circumstances in the Waitaki that require Government intervention. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022c5909700e2494f25a3ee3affbc4e2699\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022c5909700e2494f25a3ee3affbc4e2699\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is an abuse of process and an abuse of power. It is the Government writing the rules to suit itself. It is offensive to all those New Zealanders who believe there should be one rule for all, including this Government. That is why members of this National Opposition will oppose this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ELet us not pretend that this bill is about anything other than a huge strategic decision for New Zealand. It is about a $1.2 billion development\u2014a development a third bigger than the Clyde Dam. It is the biggest hydro development in 30 years in this country and will take 73 percent of the water out of the Waitaki River. There are so many similarities between this bill and the Clyde Dam empowering bill. The only significant difference is that today we live in the age of spin. Let me get a few things straight for the Minister in terms of her misleading New Zealanders. She said the bill is not fast-track legislation. That sounds like another great DB advertisement: \u201CYeah right\u201D. The Minister\u2019s own press releases say this bill is necessary to reduce time delays. They say it has to occur as quickly as possible to expedite decision making. If that is not fast tracking, what on earth is? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe bill enables the Government\u2019s own company, Meridian Energy, to bypass key sections of the Resource Management Act. Why is the water plan for the Waitaki River not going to be appealable to the Environment Court? Every other river in the country will be. What is more, clause 32 severely limits any appeals to the Environment Court. It is a Clayton\u2019s appeal process. Similarly, the bill severely limits the Environment Court appeals on hydro developments in terms of their consents. The powers to strike out appeals are a lot wider, evidence is strictly limited, and the bill fast tracks any hearings. We then heard the Minister\u2019s claim that the board and the commission are independent. It is laughable. The Resource Management Act requires that decisions are made by locally elected regional and district councillors accountable to their own communities. This bill states that all the decisions will be made by the Minister\u2019s own appointments. The Minister appoints the chair and the deputy chair; and, to quote the bill, they \u201Chold office at the pleasure of the Minister\u201D. How does that differ from the Environment Court. The Environment Court is judicially independent. This is all about sycophants appointed by this Government to rush through Project Aqua. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EWe then come to the draconian provisions, which give carte blanche powers for the Minister to override the Resource Management Act. The bill states that the Minister and any part of the board\u2019s process, or any part of the panel\u2019s process, can completely override the Resource Management Act. The Minister will be given the power to override completely any element of process in respect of the Resource Management Act. That is nothing less than draconian. I want an explanation from Government members, who have vigorously defended the Resource Management Act and all its bureaucracy, then suddenly when it comes to the Government\u2019s own project, it wants those sorts of powers to change the rules. What about the other 50,000 consents a year by small businesses, other New Zealanders, and competing energies companies? Why are the rules different? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003ENational has been arguing for the reform of the Resource Management Act for years. We went blue in the face over the resource management amendment bill introduced in 1998, with our own special policy statement, fixing the Resource Management Act in 2001. At the beginning of this year we had our own special select committee, which specially looked at the issues of the Resource Management Act. Marian Hobbs and Labour said the Act was fine and did not need change. She said it was beautifully written and beautifully balanced. It seems it is beautifully balanced, except when it relates to the Government\u2019s own project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Minister claims that this amendment bill is needed because there is no regional water plan for the Waitaki River. But she could direct the regional council to provide one in terms of the Act. She could fund the council to do so. She has been Minister for the Environment for 4 years. She claimed there is a policy vacuum. If there is a policy vacuum, it is the Minster\u2019s own fault. She should have changed the law to require every council to have a plan for all of our major rivers, but she has not done so, and this bill does not do so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThere is a huge conflict of interest, because if Meridian Energy makes a buck out of Project Aqua it goes straight into the coffers of this Government. Therefore, the Government has a conflict of interest that it is abusing in this Parliament this afternoon. There is a very close parallel between this bill and the Clyde Dam bill of 1982, and the Government has learnt nothing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d9f98345e0a149788c4cb00b93976aa7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: What rubbish!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022102102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c402bbf8c0ee427b860404b2cb5d8056\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Let me tell Mr Mallard that the Clyde Dam bill was approved by the Conservation Authority. [Interruption] Well, the Clyde Dam bill was approved by the Planning Tribunal in 1980. But with the appeal rights, it then went to the High Court and was reconsidered. The only thing that is different, I tell Mr Mallard, who is trying to interject, is that the teaching is at the beginning of the process, rather than at the end. The Government should reform the Resource Management Act for all. [Interruption] That member has changed his tune. That member is in a Government of Helen Clark, Pete Hodgson, and Marian Hobbs, who cut their political teeth on opposing Sir Robert Muldoon with the Clyde Dam empowering bill, and now they have introduced their own bill. If members opposite\u2014like the talkative member from the South Island\u2014push through this bill at the fast pace they are proposing they will throw away\u2014[Interruption] I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I know that Trevor Mallard does not want to debate the issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00225e472c7da6064e6e89e6307f7715a53e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225e472c7da6064e6e89e6307f7715a53e\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. The member will rise, withdraw, and apologise. That remark was not called for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223a58f680e60245a995c26119ad524588\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288d2dfe5a2d24246b1d71683027b67c7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: The Government will force this bill through on a fast-track timetable and report back in March. That is a dirty trick. The Government has brought this bill in just before Christmas, and thinks that the South Islanders are stupid and will let the Government get away with this. The arrogance of South Island members opposite will cost them support in the South Island. The people of the south will rise up against this bill and tell the Government that it should follow the rules that it sets for all. Members on this side of the House say the Resource Management Act should be reformed. We do need to have new energy generation, but whether it is the Dobson hydro scheme on the West Coast, the Pencarrow wind farm, or the new proposal on rivers and other parts of the country, there must be the same set of rules, whether or not they are Government companies or private companies. We are telling the Government not to screw the scrum to its own advantage and not to let its conflict of interest enable it to overrule good law and good process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI want to point out that this bill changes Part 2 of the Resource Management Act. That perhaps is the most fascinating part of the bill. I have heard the Minister for the Environment vigorously defend Part 2 of the Resource Management Act. She says the criteria is appropriate for everywhere in the country, yet when it comes to Project Aqua it appears the Government will screw the position by suddenly saying that it has to take into account the national perspective of economic benefits. Why should the national perspective of economic benefits be considered for this project, but for no other? If the Government were bringing in a resource management amendment bill to change the rules for all rivers and for all consent applicants, that would be fair enough, but it should not do it exclusively to suit its own project. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe Government is getting our country into an awful mess in respect of both resource law and energy law. New Zealand does need new generation, but this sort of playing favourites and putting this bill alongside the resource management energy bill, will create a right mess. There should be a reform of the Resource Management Act for all, not just for some. The Government\u2019s abuse of process, and rigging the rules to suit itself, will bring it down. New Zealanders stand very firmly of the view that there is one law for all. The Government has brought a bill into this House that provides for a different set of rules for the biggest dam scheme in this country in 30 years. That is nothing less than a constitutional outrage. National will fight this bill every step of the way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022 data-id=\u0022e61e188994a54dc5a76c0bd151a50e54\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f9c512a8-d532-4ef9-ad51-0fe8d752a893\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e61e188994a54dc5a76c0bd151a50e54\u0022\u003ECLAYTON COSGROVE (Labour\u2014Waimakariri):\u003C/span\u003E The bill is very important and attempts to address a number of key issues. At the very least it deserves, and will get, very close scrutiny from this side of the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u00226bd332ffbb7f40579ac99dc83a1c5399\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226bd332ffbb7f40579ac99dc83a1c5399\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I am rather mystified that a member from Canterbury would make such an inadequate, almost stupid, statement in defence of what is a constitutional outrage, with regard to resource management, and then leave the House\u2014and leave us behind. Why do we have the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill of last year alongside this bill, which both bypass the usual processes of the Resource Management Act of 1991? A common theme is starting to develop across the floor of the House with this minority Labour Government that is not acknowledged. The theme is that the Resource Management Act is not adequate to deal with the allocation issues that the Government sees with regard to the Waitaki River valley. It is not adequate to deal with the competitive commercial environment. That is the underlying statement of this bill. If that is so, why did we not avail ourselves, and why did that minority party not avail itself, of the opportunity when it picked up the Simon Upton bill of 1998? It had ample time\u2014almost 4 years\u2014to go through the main tenets, the underlying philosophy, of that bill, and how it operated in the practice and process and sought to implement the reforms that we on this side of the House know now that that Act needs. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThis bill is no answer at all. It is nothing more than a pragmatic, ad hoc approach to what is a very, very serious issue in New Zealand. Why has it been introduced so soon after the Resource Management Amendment Act? The answer lies with the Government. At the start of the year we went through the whole process. We gave the Government ample opportunity to review the Act thoroughly. There was no willingness\u2014perhaps there was no understanding. I am not sure which it was. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EToday we come to another piece of piecemeal legislation, which is pragmatic in its supposed purpose. Let us be quite clear. It is another deliberate moving away from the thinking of the Resource Management Act. I go back to the Resource Management Bill as it came to the House, in the memory of some members on the Government side. The Rt Hon Geoffrey Palmer said in August 1990\u2014against the ghost of Clyde Dam: \u201CIn fact, in Part V there is provision for statements of Government policy to influence directly the way in which local government will undertake its functions. However, those are not statements for particular projects; and they are not the National Development Act in disguise.\u201D I repeat that they are not, in the mind of the Rt Hon Geoffrey Palmer, the National Development Act in disguise, and that refers to the Clyde Dam. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EI am saying to the House that this is what we have today. We have the Clyde Dam revisited. There has been a slight change in the timing of where the bill and the Act appear, but it is the same disastrous process. It is the same lack of attention to what ought to have been the finer framework of the Clyde River and now the Waitaki River valley. Is this a sign of things to come? I hope not. Waitaki now\u2014Auckland transport next week; climate change tomorrow\u2014energy shortfalls next year; Kyoto obligations\u2014probably in 2005: all to be solved by an ad hoc, pragmatic approach, with imprest Government proposals coming to the House, and with little wish for any proper purposeful thinking, but instead, imprest Government direction and imprest ministerial direction from Cabinet\u2014from the Prime Minister herself, I have no doubt. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThere is no overarching philosophy. Is that not clear in what the Minister herself has said in recent statements, which were aired again in the House this afternoon? The Minister said that this will reduce the time delays. \u201CI wish to achieve expedient decisions, ensuring the process is as quick as possible.\u201D The most important aspect, the Minister said, will be to \u201Cserve certain outcomes\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe previous speaker has already raised the issue of conflict of interest, whereby this Government company, which annually gives dividends back to the New Zealand Government, is the subject of special legislation. We in New Zealand First say that that is not good enough. Why is it not good enough, in simple, practical terms? We believe earnestly that the process should apply to A J Brown, as to Meridian. It should apply to everyone. Here, for the first time, we have a major shift in resource management thinking, whereby the big guy gets his or her day in court, because it is an absolutely protected cocoon, and without any fear of Government or anybody else interfering with the ultimate outcome. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWhy is it so important to Waitaki? I am very indebted, as other members will be, for the excellent work of the Otago Daily Times and to David Bruce, who have kept their minds on the matter right through, including in yesterday\u2019s editorial.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E In an earlier opinion in the Otago Daily Times, going back to Monday, 27 October, a very important comment was made\u2014I think, unwisely, but that is a matter of opinion\u2014by John Rice, consenting manager for Meridian Energy\u2019s Project Aqua. This is not a debate about Project Aqua; it is a debate on the processes. But, just to see where he saw things going, so far as Project Aqua was concerned, he said: \u201CThe river will still be there with Project Aqua, albeit a smaller and different river,\u201D. In other words, this process, in the minds of the major developer, would change the Waitaki River for ever, and there is no wonder that the issues down there are ones of distrust, of high stress and emotion, in which have developed the climate of uncertainty and anxiety, and the uncertainty of change. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe issue we have to consider, as we go through the various stages of the bill, is that we have a right in this country, and the people living in the Waitaki River catchment area have a right, to expect a certain process. The process is there in the Resource Management Act. It is one that empowers individuals and gives the community a minimal and maximum right, with regard to the impact of a decision that affected them, step by step. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ESo we come to this bill. The previous speaker has already outlined some of the issues, but the major point I want to make on behalf of New Zealand First is that we are extremely concerned about this complete ministerial dictation and direction with regard to the total process, at each point. It is the Minister who appoints the board. It is the Minister who decides upon the calibre in terms of direction, and the choice this Minister and this Cabinet would make is a very big issue for members on this side of the House. What if the Minister, having made perhaps an ill choice\u2014out of the four\u2014finds that one of them is not to her choice? Instant dismissal! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThis is a compliant Government imposing its direction upon the people of Waitaki\u2014at every point. However, there was a choice to decide\u2014in view of the known ingredient of a lack of a completed water allocation framework for Canterbury\u2014to have a minor amendment to the resource management legislation, setting out the proposal with regard to water allocation, knowing that the Otago Regional Council has an excellent water plan; knowing that Environment Canterbury has a half-finished plan; and knowing that if the ministry had thought about this over the last year and a half, in the recesses of its mind, an amendment could have come to the House, been before the House, and have gone. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThat allocated framework would have allowed the local councils to have directed the applications, after hearing the applications in the normal way. The advantages would have been to allow the Environment Court to be a court of appeal for all matters, not just for matters that were to be decided by those elsewhere. We would have gone through the proper process. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe issue for New Zealand First is that we oppose this bill at the present time. We oppose it because it is pragmatic. It is a very indifferent pragmatic approach to a major problem of water and water allocation. We oppose it because the processes that are set out in this bill are a denial of natural justice and equality for all applicants, no matter who they are. We look forward with great interest to the second reading and the discussion in the select committee. On that note I want to pause and say: \u201CWhy oh why is March the report date, when this matter is of such national importance?\u201D. It is the largest dam to be built in recent history, and the legislation is going to be compressed and pushed through. That, in itself, is a very excellent example of this Government\u2019s arrogant, unthinking, and not-listening attitude. It is prepared to push on and roll over things like a steamroller. May it reap the benefit of this ill-considered approach.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022 data-id=\u00228b97ddd3a1204982973d3227f823f0d2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228b97ddd3a1204982973d3227f823f0d2\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green):\u003C/span\u003E No one should be in any doubt at all that this bill is being introduced because the Government wants Project Aqua to proceed, and if applications for water rights are considered in the order they were received, there may not be enough water left in the river for the mega-electricity project. At the same time, this bill underlines serious failures in the way the Resource Management Act itself has worked and in the provisions that regional councils have made. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Act provides for all applications to take or discharge into water to be heard in the order they are received, and focuses on considering the effects of each application. There is no provision for considering cumulative effects in this first-up, best-dressed process. The Act was passed at a time when there was a real prejudice against anything one could call \u201Cplanning\u201D. Some councils have taken the view that under the Resource Management Act councils are not supposed to plan for their communities, but just to consider the effects of each proposal on an ad hoc basis. The resulting mess in the Waitaki shows that this is a failed approach and that councils have got to be more proactive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003ERegional councils have had 12 years to do something about this in their regional policy statements and plans, and the Ministry for the Environment has had 12 years to see that they did it. But they have not. It is not as though they have had no warning of the situation. The need to plan for cumulative effects was debated at the time the Act was passed, and it is not true that as recently as 12 years ago we thought there was all the water in the South Island rivers that we could possibly need. It was clear even then that there would be conflicts over water in drought-prone areas of the South Island before long, and the warnings about effects-based planning were sounded at the time. It was up to regional councils to plan for ways to consider cumulative effects and resource shortages. They could have developed water allocation policies, setting out the priorities in their region, and water management plans for each catchment against which to consider specific applications. But in most cases they have not. As a result, all local users of water fear that if Project Aqua is given consent there will be nothing left for anyone else or for the river itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Greens oppose ad hoc project-based legislation, but we are in a mess here. The status quo cannot work. In that situation somebody needs to take action and set up a process for water allocation under the resource management criteria in the Act. Given that applications are already in the system, the only way to do this is for the Government to use its call-in powers. It has not done that for Project Aqua alone, but it has done it for all competing applications, and prior to that for the allocation process itself. This is actually not like the Clyde Dam. In that situation the National Government used Parliament to overturn a High Court decision and approve a single project. The project had been through its planning process. It had, in the final appeal, been turned down, and Parliament and the National Government overturned that legal decision for a single project. That was real \u201Cpicking winners\u201D. This bill is not as bad as that. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe Greens are cautiously supporting this bill\u2019s referral to the select committee, because, frankly, we do not see what other course of action is available. Given time, it could have been done with a national policy statement, but a national policy statement would take too long to resolve the current impasse. It should, however, still happen. A national policy statement under the Act for the protection and allocation of fresh waters would help regional councils everywhere to do their job better. That would not take away their power to determine local priorities, but it would offer guidance at a higher level. Instead this legislation leads to us saying, and here I do agree with Nick Smith: \u201CWhy only the Waitaki?\u201D. Do other rivers not also need catchment plans and water allocation policies? Other rivers are certainly at risk of over-allocation, and some believe they are already over-allocated. Are we going to wait until there is another Government-favoured project that needs water, before we address the generic issues? I believe we should look seriously at amending the Resource Management Act to require regional councils to establish catchment management plans for each river system and water allocation plans for the water resources they control, so that this situation will not arise again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EHaving said that, I note that there are some reassuring things about this bill. It is reasonably faithful to the principles of the Resource Management Act. It says that in-stream values must be considered first, then water for stock and domestic use, and, finally, some division of the remainder between industrial uses, such as irrigation and hydro-power. But the devil is in the detail, and the select committee will be considering the submissions carefully and looking for amendments to make sure this is the best process that can possibly be established in the circumstances. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E In particular, the Greens are concerned at the composition of the board, which will allocate water among different uses with no right of appeal except on matters of law. The Bill provides for that board to be appointed solely by the Minister, and raises the concern that it will be there just to serve the Minister\u2019s interests. There is a balancing of local and national interests that must be served here, and the very least we might expect is for the Minister to give some power of appointment of at least a minority of the positions to local government in the region. Another option would be to invite an independent and expert authority, such as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment to appoint one of the members. The possibility that the board may comprise as few as two people is a serious worry. Two people, between them, could not possibly have the mix of expertise that is needed to properly consider all the complex and technical issues that will arise here. It is vital that the board has within it some expertise in in-stream river values. Otherwise board members will be captive to whatever line the best-paid lawyers and consultants can sell them. Make no mistake, all the pressure from all the applicants here will be to take as much water as possible, and leave as little as possible for the river itself. So the upper limit of five members seems to us much more appropriate than the lower limit of two. There is no appeal against the decision of this board, so it must be given the resources and the time to get it right first off. The time it is given must respect what is possible for the local people, volunteering their free time and without much money. It must not be a process designed only for those who are full time and well resourced. That means the select committee should set a longer time than normal for submissions, particularly as it is over the Christmas period, and be prepared to work the extra hours that the Minister has made possible in order to still progress the bill rapidly. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EThe outcome of the process will set precedents for water allocation plans on other rivers, too. It must have regard to principle at every step, and not just be a shortcut to a project that the Crown wants. Under this bill the consent-hearing process will be taken out of the hands of local councils. Instead of arguing their case in front of their elected representatives, local people will have to front up to a more formal and unfamiliar process, dominated by big players with highly paid lawyers and consultants. It is our duty in this Parliament to ensure the balance is as fair as it can be made, both in terms of the process followed and of the resources made available. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003EFinally, I want to say a word about Project Aqua itself\u2014the immediate trigger for this bill. Nick Smith managed to say a lot about how terrible the process was and avoid telling us anything about where National stands on Project Aqua. It would be nice to know. I will tell members where the Greens stand. The Greens oppose it. It is being touted as part of the answer to our dry-winter electricity shortages. New Zealanders need to know that if we sacrifice our largest braided river by diverting three-quarters of it out of the riverbed to a canal, it will actually make dry-winter shortages worse. Project Aqua will generate most power when there is most water in the river. That will be in summer. The lower demand in summer and the greater supply will lower prices in summer, making investment in wind power less likely, yet wind power is not subject to dry-year shortages and provides the balance we need to having all our eggs in the hydro basket. In the driest winter months Project Aqua may generate nothing at all, because the flow will not exceed the minimum required for the river itself. The company has disguised that, with figures given for the annual generation in a dry year. But most of that annual generation will be in summer when power is not short. Looking at the figures for last June, we see that the water available above the minimum flow Meridian Energy proposes was a quarter of the 340 cumecs that represents full capacity for Project Aqua. Last winter was by no means the driest we should plan for. So in our time of greatest need we can expect Project Aqua to hardly be there. At the very least we owe these people a fair and inclusive process for putting their case for local values against a Crown-owned corporation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022a89b0936ea6c4943ac63f501f6fab4d7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a89b0936ea6c4943ac63f501f6fab4d7\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E In addressing this bill, I have to make the observation that we have heard it all now. We have had an extraordinary speech from the co-leader of the Greens, saying that they are opposed to Project Aqua, yet they come to Parliament and want to pass legislation that fast tracks it. They want to fast track something that they are opposed to. I cannot see a lot of logic in that. The ACT party has a much clearer position. We recognise the need for Project Aqua\u2014the energy supply for this country is in a looming crisis situation, and getting worse by the week\u2014but we oppose this appalling process. This is a national development Act equivalent. Moreover, it is an admission by this Government that the Resource Management Act has failed. What did the Minister say? She said that the Resource Management Act is beautifully written and beautifully balanced. I put it to the House it is about as beautifully balanced as that member, the Minister for the Environment. [Interruption] Some may regard her as Tinkerbell but I personally think that would be stretching it a bit far. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EThe Government is saying that the Resource Management Act is fine, it is not holding up investment in this country, and it is beautifully balanced and beautifully written, yet when its State-owned enterprise comes up against it, potentially\u2014this Project Aqua in the Waitaki\u2014what does it do? It rams through a Clyde Dam equivalent to fast track it. Is that not an admission that the Resource Management Act does not work? The Government says: \u201COh, one can tender for the private sector, and others; the Act is balanced and beautifully written.\u201D But instead of being balanced and neutral, and fixing it for the whole of the country, so that all development projects can compete on equal terms, the Government, when it has to confront the Act and run the gauntlet\u2014knowing that it would take 10 years to get its resource consents through\u2014brings this legislation to the House. It is an outrage of process. That is very arrogant of this Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224719c823364b4b5cac95c6fcb0a154de\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Could we add the Auckland motorway completion as an appendix?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022606faf349bf542d4945d9584114cac31\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: My colleague Richard Prebble suggests that if the Government is of this frame of mind, it could make a full list and add the Auckland motorway projects to get them through the Resource Management Act. And it could add all those other things that are held up and are costing jobs, costing potential investment in this country, and leading to our people\u2014our best and our brightest\u2014leaving through lack of opportunities. But the situation is actually worse than that because the Government is turning the clock back about 15 years. It is effectively setting up a Waitaki catchment commission. Until the Resource Management Act came in, and local government reforms, we had 18 catchment boards and water resource boards around this country to do the very job that has been proposed here\u2014that is, allocate water in an administrative local government \u201Cpicking-winners\u201D type model. What has the Government done? It has set up another Waitaki catchment commission. This one is a bit different. The old Waitaki catchment commission was elected by local people with local interest. Not any more! There will be ministerial appointment of the chairman, the deputy chairman, and the whole board. Those board members hold their position at the pleasure of\u2014guess who\u2014the Minister for the Environment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c43a44a454284dd19a3997504c33f888\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Labour Party hacks.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc9b1ee49429407da5a611a6c196bbf5\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Labour Party hacks, held there at the pleasure of the Minister for the Environment. It is an outrage, as other speakers have observed. The other interesting aspect is that one cannot take appeal. The decision of this new catchment commission cannot be appealed to the Environment Court\u2014only on very narrow points of law. So all other investment and all other potential developers in the country who want to create wealth and prosperity will run the gauntlet of the application process, and they are inevitably confronted with an appeal to the Environment Court. That takes a lot of time and money and delays investment in this country. The Government has fast tracked it in the process initially, but also precluded it from going to the Environment Court on appeal on anything other than narrow points of law. The issue is to go back to that administrative public sector \u201Cpicking winners\u201D in the allocation of any resource. The allocation of water is very important, but we gave up on the administrative allocation decades ago, and pricing mechanisms is the only way to allocate a resource like water. But because of the philosophy of this socialist Government, it is not prepared to consider pricing mechanisms to ensure the proper use of what are scarce resources like water.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E This situation is not unique to Waitaki\u2014the same is true of Nelson, Hawke\u2019s Bay, Canterbury, or Auckland. Water will be in increasingly tight supply at various times throughout the country, so why specific legislation for Waitaki only? The only reason can be that it is the Government\u2019s pet project to buy it time in the energy sector. Project Aqua is major. It is a $1.2 billion development, which is very significant, and ACT observes that it is actually needed. We have had a fourfold increase in our electricity demand over the last 40 years, and our demand is continuing to expand at 800 gigawatt hours per year. Project Aqua would deliver 3,000 gigawatt hours, so we actually need a Project Aqua equivalent every 4 years. Every 4 years we should be thinking of a Project Aqua equivalent. What is this Government doing? It has locked up our coal reserves. Most energy planners recognise that the only realistic option for us in the medium term\u2014the next 20 years\u2014is coal, but oh no, we have signed up to the fundamentally flawed Kyoto Protocol, so we have to pretend that our coal is not in the ground. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003EWe have at least 1,000 years of coal in the ground in this country, but this Government, because of its political arrogance and ignorance, says that we cannot use it. It will not consider the nuclear option, because that is against Labour Party mantras. It will not allow smaller hydro schemes on the West Coast, like the Dobson dam, which is a very sensible scheme. It would deliver 65 megawatts in a water-rich area. But oh no, that would have created a little lake on Department of Conservation land, so we could not have that. The Minister of Conservation turned it down, and now the Government is having to bite the hard choice, which is the modification of the lower Waitaki flow below Kurow, with a channel taking about 70 percent of the low flow and passing it through some six power generation stations. It is little wonder that the Government will have a huge problem on its hands. Potentially, it will be another Manapouri, which is what the Government is desperately trying to avoid by this grubby little bill that it has brought to the House. The Otago Daily Times editor summed it up rather well this week in some rather harsh words against the Government when he said: \u201CThis is an outrageous piece of legislation. It cannot be condoned. The Government is on notice that any attempt to fast-track the draining of the Waitaki River will not be tolerated.\u201D Those are the sentiments of the editor of the Otago Daily Times. The Government knows that, but it is not prepared to subject itself to the gauntlet of our appalling planning procedures in this country, which have remained unmodified for far too long, and, instead, has the temerity and the gall to bring fast-track legislation to this House with the sole purpose of easing the way for its own State-owned enterprise, Meridian Energy. Who gets all the profits from Meridian Energy? Guess who gets all the dividend payments from Meridian Energy! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b0d8b0e0-3ece-4865-9145-5eb5983fc54c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239e31e138b27494a81d17dca26e76978\u0022\u003EHon Richard Prebble\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Cullen.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d3fad93fcb364fd389f659c34ceef54f\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Dr Cullen brings in all those dividends. The Government is completely dominating the energy sector, both generation and transmission, and now it wants to bring all those dividends back in. It is just another form of taxation so that the Government can spend\u2014and waste\u2014the money in the unproductive sector of this country. ACT will be opposing this bill through all its stages. We recognise the need for Project Aqua, but we say to this Government that if it is to bring in fast-track legislation like this, it should do it on a neutral basis across the economy so that we can start to generate wealth and create some prosperity for this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u002287b48c63ff934e6ba0b7e4152c86894c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002287b48c63ff934e6ba0b7e4152c86894c\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b23fd8a2dc4f42e397c9049132c86c4c\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call the Hon Mark Burton.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254dae486501c4e0888fe89e6709b2d25\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I sought the call. You heard me\u2014because you looked at me. You then looked across and called Ms Pettis. I was aware that Labour members were giving one-sentence speeches and not speaking on this legislation. I remained standing and sought the call again, and I believe that I should now have the call, because they should alternate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022013bce1e861f4231b33e7f1476f6cbd0\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry. I call the Hon Roger Sowry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u002276af490026754c47a849ecff983e8157\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276af490026754c47a849ecff983e8157\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E I start by saying that it is extraordinary that the member for Otago, whose electorate this project runs right through, has chosen not to stand in this House and speak on this legislation. I do not know whether Mr Parker\u2014who, they say, is Otago\u2019s MP\u2014is allowed to speak on the legislation or whether he has been sent away so that he cannot speak on it, but have never seen a member of Parliament refuse to speak on a bill that is so major and concerns a project that runs right through his constituency. Mr Parker is trying to pretend that there is no view on that, at all. It is extraordinary that, on a bill that does for Project Aqua much the same as previous legislation did for the Clyde Dam\u2014which the Labour Party fought tooth and nail\u2014and that gives a whole new process to the consenting of the water usage rights of the Waitaki, Labour is putting up North Island Labour members to say: \u201CThis is a good bill\u201D and sit down. Why are they so scared to stand up in the House and fight for the bill? Why is no M\u0101ori member prepared to stand up and talk about Ng\u0101i Tahu\u2019s view on water usage? Where is Mr Parker? Why is David Parker\u2014the elected member for the area\u2014not prepared to get on his hind legs in the House and speak on this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EEqually extraordinary in this debate has been the behaviour of the Greens, who, we know, oppose Project Aqua. Indeed, Jeanette Fitzsimons just told us that a few moments ago. We know that the Greens, a week or two ago, were opposing this bill. The Greens toddled along to us and said that the bill will not be going to Jeanette Fitzsimon\u2019s select committee. The Government is sending it to the Education and Science Committee, rather than the Local Government and Environment Committee, which usually deals with this sort of legislation. That is what the Government is going to do. So the Greens cut a deal, which was that they would vote for the first reading of the bill if the Government sent it to their select committee, which Ms Fitzsimons chairs. They cut a deal. What an extraordinary party of principle the Greens are, to be able cut a deal like that! Then we listened to the speech made by Ms Fitzsimons, in which she said that the Greens oppose Project Aqua but that they will vote for the bill\u2014which will assess whether Project Aqua will get the water\u2014because it will come to the committee that she chairs, and that if she had not done that, the bill would not be going to her committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThen there is the United Future party. Well! Just 4 weeks ago, that party did a different deal. It did a deal with Outdoor Recreation NZ. That is a loose-knit political organisation that totally opposes 75 percent of the water being taken out of the Waitaki river and used in that project. Peter Dunne stitched up a political deal with Outdoor Recreation NZ. He went to the country and said: \u201CLook\u2014I\u2019ve got another party that has joined the great Christian coalition. It\u2019s made us a bit less Christian, but we\u2019re OK.\u201D Now, on the first bit of legislation that Outdoor Recreation NZ has a stated, public view on, United Future will vote the other way. It will vote for the first reading of the bill, to allow the water to be used, even though Outdoor Recreation NZ has a different view. How long will that deal last? I do not think it will last very long, at all, although I am sure that United Future will go back to outdoor recreation groups and say: \u201CNo, no. We just voted for the introduction. We\u2019re really with you. We won\u2019t vote for it any more. We will get some concessions.\u201D La-di-da\u2014it is the normal sort of stuff we have heard from them over a period of time. They are the sorts of good weasel words that have got them through another year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EQuite clearly, the National Party opposes this bill. National is opposed to doing little deals for one State-owned enterprise to bypass the Resource Management Act. National believes that if the Resource Management Act is right, then we should let it work for everything; if it is wrong\u2014and the Government clearly believes that it is wrong\u2014then the Government should come and fix it for everyone. I was with representatives of Mighty River Power, another State-owned enterprise, the other day, and they are just watching this so closely because\u2014guess what? They have projects they want to do around the country, and what do they need to get them done? Oh, they need just a little bit of special legislation, just a one-off bill to bypass the Resource Management Act\u2014just the same sort of principle we are seeing here applied to them. So how will the Government say no to Mighty River Power, Genesis, or Contact Energy, and say yes to Meridian Energy? That will be an interesting dilemma for this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI also want to say, with regard to Project Aqua, that National is not in this House supporting or opposing that project. It is not the job of political parties to sit here at this stage and say that that is the project we should go with. What this nation needs is a decent energy plan, and that is just an example of the leadership that this Government is not giving. There is no energy plan. There is no plan about how we will overcome energy shortages. All we have from the Government is a mishmash of environmental ideals and sustainability statements, with no plan at all. Now, there will be a commission set up, and it will be able to regulate, impose costs, and do a whole lot of other things\u2014and that is another story, because that will not work, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe Minister, in her speech, was extraordinary. Here we have, for the first time since 1990\u2014the first time in 13 years\u2014a situation when the Minister has had to come into the House and say: \u201CI have got a project and the Resource Management Act simply won\u2019t meet it, and I want to pass legislation similar to what happened with the Clyde Dam. Labour opposed it then, but now we want to pass legislation to support getting this project through.\u201D Well, I say to the Minister that if the legislation does not work for this project, or for the Dobson dam, then why not change it for all projects? Why is the Minister going through this charade? Why is she saying in the House that the Resource Management Act is beautifully balanced legislation when she knows it does not work? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI look forward to the Minister appearing before the select committee to explain why she is supporting this piecemeal and haphazard legislation. I look forward to her explaining that\u2014and she will be invited. National signals right now that we will want the Minister to appear before the select committee to explain the policy principles behind the bill. I wager any member on the Government side that the Minister will not front. She will be as conspicuous by her absence as the member for Otago is today by his. He just will not front. It is no wonder that down in Otago they ask: \u201CWho is he?\u201D He has been here during the week, but when the one major bill, the only bill that will directly affect his electorate in the whole 3 years of his short political life, is introduced, my gosh, he has suddenly got a haircut in Oamaru and he cannot be here today. Well, that member will be judged on that, because he will not be able to fool the people of Otago\u2014just as this Government and Minister will not be able to fool the people of Otago on this legislation. If the Resource Management Act is working, then the bill is not needed; if it is not working, the whole Act should be changed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022a68dc31220614b788b56b155603d9e14\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a68dc31220614b788b56b155603d9e14\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to speak on this bill. The first point I want to make in this debate is that United Future supports this first reading because, unlike the honourable member Dr Nick Smith, we understand the difference between fast tracking the process and fast tracking a project. It was clearly evidenced by the member\u2019s questions in question time today that he was struggling to understand the difference between fast tracking a project and fast tracking the process, which is something people all over this country have been asking for, for years\u2014that the Resource Management Act processes be speeded up in order to give greater certainty to business and communities in terms of the outcomes. We are able to do that, through this legislation, without giving any certainty to any particular project. It must go through its process and be subject to the community\u2019s input, but the process will be speeded up considerably. That is important for the people of New Zealand, because we need to know whether projects such as this\u2014energy projects that will deliver for the country\u2014will be able to go forward. That is why United Future is keen to support the first reading of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225f2b3f8dd2de4f6bb45ce08838a74084\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: Is it fast-track?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e36d0d552db647559d326d2a70cd9110\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: It does not surprise me that Nick Smith has difficulty understanding that difference, though, because I have sat with him through most of this year on the \u201Ccorngate\u201D inquiry, and he has had considerable difficulty all year in understanding the word \u201Ctolerance\u201D, although it has been explained to him on many, many occasions by some of the best experts we have. He has still been unable to understand the difference there. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225ab96c1ed44d4dbab608973c3c50c2fa\u0022\u003EHon Dr Nick Smith\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know the member is a new member, but I understand we are debating the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill, but the member is debating the \u201Ccorngate\u201D inquiry. I would welcome the opportunity to debate that inquiry in Parliament, and would be happy to seek leave to do so, but I suggest he keeps to the topic of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022211db11ecf264a0e8a050156f8977c3b\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for pointing that out. I invite the member to come to the matter at hand. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298f2dc695aa942839260a93448402986\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to debate this legislation, and I am also happy to mention that the Minister for the Environment announced in question time today significant reductions in the backlog of cases in the Environment Court, and a great deal of improvement in the efficiency of cases being heard by the court and being processed. That is extremely good news for our country. It is good news for all of those who queue up to have their time in that court, because they will get greater certainty as a result. But what is good news for us and good news for the people of New Zealand is, clearly, bad news for National members, who have constantly harped on about the difficulties with the Resource Management Act. Once that issue is taken away from them, I wonder what on earth they will find to complain about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EUnited Future has continued to work with the Government to improve the Resource Management Act process, and since we ensured the passage of the Resource Management Amendment Bill, which had been stalled for 4 years in this House, we have continued to discuss proposals and ideas to further improve and streamline the Resource Management Act consent process. We have constantly raised the need for a better process to enable projects of significant benefit to the nation and to regional economies to be given greater clarity and certainty regarding their outcomes. That is what this legislation is about. This bill will be somewhat of a test case for those proposals, and United Future supports its first reading and referral to the Local Government and Environment Committee, for that reason.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EI say again that this bill is not about fast tracking a particular proposal; it is about fast tracking a process. We expect to hear many submissions on this bill, with a wide range of views. That will enable the committee to examine the benefits of this legislation and the process it seeks to put into place, as well as to hear a balance of views from those who have raised potential concerns. United Future looks forward to that process in the select committee, and we commend this bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022 data-id=\u002227dd9ca4798d4946835cc0e49ccaf88d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002227dd9ca4798d4946835cc0e49ccaf88d\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL (National\u2014Rakaia):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to be able to take a call on the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill. I want to make my position abundantly clear right from the outset. Despite the Minister for the Environment\u2019s rhetoric to the contrary, this legislation is specifically designed to fast track Project Aqua. I cannot help but wonder whether this legislation would be happening at all\u2014let alone being rushed through the House with indecent haste\u2014if Meridian Energy was not a wholly owned Government business. That this country needs more electricity generation is not disputed, but in addressing the issue the Government is cherry-picking the Resource Management Act in the most cynical way possible to suit its own purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EBack in 1990, none other than the Rt Hon Geoffrey Palmer, in the second reading of the Resource Management Bill, said: \u201C\u2026 in Part V there is provision for statements of Government policy to influence directly the way in which local government will undertake its functions. However, those are not statements for particular projects; they are not the National Development Act in disguise.\u201D Clearly, the then Government was keen to distance the Resource Management Act from the former National Development Act, and to make sure that the Government would not be making policy in respect of particular projects. The hypocrisy of that argument is not lost on me. This is special legislation designed to fast track Project Aqua, and to skew decision making in favour of development.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI do not have a problem with the change of emphasis per se. In fact, I would argue that it is long overdue. The level of frustration felt by New Zealanders when they brush up against the Resource Management Act is at boiling point. My problem, though, is that the Resource Management Act needs a radical overhaul, but, rather than fix it, the Government is amending it for its very selective purpose, to suit its own needs. It seems incomprehensible that generic legislation has been drafted to cover the processing of consents for major infrastructure projects generally, yet the Waitaki consent process will be dealt with by the expedience of one-off legislation. It smacks of legislation that is politically expedient being promoted for a single State-owned enterprise project. It smacks of a Government picking winners, as happened in the Muldoon era\u2014and some present members of this Government screamed the loudest about that process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe powers vested in the Minister under this legislation should concern the wider community. A Waitaki Catchment Water Allocation Board will be established, and the board will be totally appointed and maintained by the Minister. I have heard others in the National Party refer to this, and I totally concur with them: members will serve at the Minister\u2019s pleasure and they will take her advice. This is a Clayton\u2019s board, and I essentially believe that it is the Minister in drag.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228396ff909d6f40349a676bc839a4e1ec\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s not a pleasant thought.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a67085eb055e49a2b3426ebfb45b272d\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Sowry is quite right; it is not a pleasant thought. Furthermore, a decision of the board, unlike the current Resource Management Act practice, cannot be appealed to the Environment Court; it can be appealed only to the High Court on points of law.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003ESo what underpins Project Aqua? The answer is electricity shortages, but I have reservations that Project Aqua will actually be the panacea this Government wants us to swallow. It comes with significant risk. It comes with a price tag estimated at $1.25 billion\u2014and I have reservations about the accuracy of that costing\u2014and a pricing model that I believe needs closer scrutiny. Much has been said about a fairer allocation model, but in reality 95 percent of the water that will be used will go to Project Aqua. Seventy-three percent of the water from our last great braided river will be channelled for 60 kilometres down canals that will dissect some of our best and most productive farmland. So that there is no mistake as to the size of these canals, I point out that they will be large enough to sail two Cook Strait ferries side by side at any one time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EThe Government\u2019s company, Meridian Energy, has adopted a bull in a china shop negotiating style and ridden roughshod over the concerns of local communities. The people of Kurow will have to put up with 70-tonne dump trucks running up their main street every 2 minutes, yet Meridian Energy has not even had the decency to commission a social impact study. Despite local concerns, this Government wants to accelerate this process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EWill Project Aqua solve our electricity crisis? At best, it is problematic. It will certainly destroy one of our great rivers\u2014there is no doubt about that. It is difficult to see the proposal, in one of New Zealand\u2019s most drought-prone areas, assisting electricity generation in low-flow dry years. At times of critical low inflow, Project Aqua is unlikely to deliver anything, yet it is promoted as an essential contributor to our baseload supply. I can only shudder at what future generations might think of us if it comes to pass. I have no doubt that we must solve our generation problems if we are to develop as a nation, but I have severe reservations about whether this project is the way to do it. I would expect this Government right now to be standing up and putting in place a strategy that dealt with that issue, not cherry-picking the Resource Management Act, and not trying to pick winners. That is what it is doing.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000473\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003EI have to echo the question that has been asked by some other members of this House: where is Mr Parker today? Where is Mr Parker when one of the most critical things that New Zealand will face\u2014and certainly the most critical thing that he will face in his electorate\u2014is being discussed? Why is he not taking a call? Why has the whip not demanded that he take a call on an issue that is so critical, rather than the whip trying to protect him? This will come back and bite him, mark my words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000474\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224eed97f7bedb41579581e89a98e6180f\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s in his electorate.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000475\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dbf24a6dd60246bd9ef59d293602d593\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: He is making a guest appearance, is he? He should be here today because this is where he is needed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000476\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229bc46784bc244988b542ea5db49a379a\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s paid to be here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000477\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c598ffd3-4771-4027-a15f-5d1f643631e0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea3a23c7a5e1475a9f1035a2c7fa6873\u0022\u003EBRIAN CONNELL\u003C/span\u003E: Mr Sowry is dead right and I thank him for his contribution. Finally, I want to express National\u2019s strong opposition to this bill. This Government is applying the rules only as it sees fit, to support a project that will be undertaken by its own company. This is not democratic, nor is it in the best long-term interests of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022 data-id=\u0022bb41594de7a740e5bc6e0efa8e4e831f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000478\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bb41594de7a740e5bc6e0efa8e4e831f\u0022\u003EDAVID BENSON-POPE (Labour\u2014Dunedin South):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have the opportunity to rise in support of this excellent and timely legislation.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022bf17ace914584b5d9889358e4a754075\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000479\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022bf17ace914584b5d9889358e4a754075\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The question is that the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u002257faa52f581c4a92bd0b5d9dcf570be7\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000480\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002257faa52f581c4a92bd0b5d9dcf570be7\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E As the only member from Otago who is prepared to speak on this bill, I seek leave of the House to take just a 5-minute call.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000481\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002206043278aa6d4953b5583bfdf05158de\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought by the member. Is there any objection to that? There appears to be.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022d3c3ddd273cb438f9f78f69c5f0e2981\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u0022af4b8d78977c49868963381f8a07364d\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000482\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af4b8d78977c49868963381f8a07364d\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for the Environment: I move, That the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Amendment Bill be referred to the Local Government and Environment Committee for consideration, that the committee report the bill finally to the House by 15 March 2004, and that the committee have the authority to meet at any time while the House is sitting\u2014except during questions for oral answer\u2014and during any evening on a day on which there has been a sitting of the House, and on a Friday in a week in which there has been a sitting of the House, despite Standing Orders 193 and 196(1)(b) and (c).\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000483\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220bf0ae0222f54486a08bc8d4f03a62bd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: There is an amendment in the name of the Hon Ken Shirley to the motion, to omit the words \u201C15 March 2004\u201D and to substitute the words \u201C30 June 2004\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00221138e8a6cf774847a6d5a3a8b47b2b49\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the amendment be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 60\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAbstentions 9\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EGreen Party 9.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAmendment not agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022 data-id=\u0022b6f48cc935324978a92c835c8d53fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000484\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b6f48cc935324978a92c835c8d53fb9b\u0022\u003EHon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader\u2014ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I think there may have been a misreporting here. You will recall the speech from the co-leader of the Greens, who gave a passionate plea for an extended reporting date. I notice that she is not in the House now. Perhaps Mr Locke has not received the right instructions from his party leader. The party leader clearly said her party wanted a later reporting date, and now it is abstaining on that issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000485\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022237fc163e429403081a9fc5b69a8e5f5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I thank the member for raising the issue, but the party concerned has a representative in the House and I have no doubt he has been fully briefed; otherwise, he would have jumped to his feet and changed the vote himself.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u002259385afb98ef4b7f929ec8fde9776241\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000486\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b92c212a1e204650a81ff271da907222\u0022\u003EResource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000487\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022e7efc73c99a7447c88848be48de16883\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022 data-id=\u002203e8316c98794d3fb87b382e8e638d85\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000488\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002203e8316c98794d3fb87b382e8e638d85\u0022\u003EHon PAREKURA HOROMIA (Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries: I move, That the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the appropriate time I intend to move that the bill be referred to the Primary Production Committee for consideration, and that the committee present its final report by Monday, 1 March 2004. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000489\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe bill amends the Resource Management Act of 1991 to extend the current moratorium on coastal permit applications for aquaculture activities. The moratorium has been in place since 28 November 2001, and is due to expire on 25 March 2004. The bill extends the moratorium to 31 December 2004. The moratorium was introduced to enable the Government to reform aquaculture law, and to enable councils to begin planning for aquaculture under the new framework. It has ensured that councils have not been flooded with marine farm applications, in a race for space, before the new legislation comes into effect. An extension of the moratorium is now unavoidable, due to a delay in the introduction of aquaculture reform legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000490\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe foreshore and seabed issues have introduced late and unexpected issues to the aquaculture policy process. Both concern the use of, and access to, coastal space. The Government intends to deal with them in an integrated and consistent way. The Government is driven to avoid the need for an extension to the moratorium. The issues are profound and complex, but an extension now will ensure that we get the legislation and policy right. The Minister of Fisheries told the marine farming industry in July that an extension of the moratorium might be necessary, and that if it were, it would be for a defined period\u2014measured in months, not years. Consistent with that, the extension proposed in the bill is for 9 months only. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000491\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EThe Government is committed to aquaculture law reform because the current legislative framework is outdated, overcomplicated, and dysfunctional. The new legislation will allow for the expansion of marine farming, while ensuring that it is managed sustainably, allowing for recreational, environmental, customary, and commercial interests. The bill also deals with a problem arising from the present dual permitting process for marine farming. Some coastal permits issued under the Resource Management Act for aquaculture have lapsed. To remedy this, the bill deems existing coastal permits to have been given effect to, for Resource Management Act purposes, by an application for a Fisheries Act permit. The bill also revives certain coastal permits for aquaculture that had lapsed under the current conditions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000492\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EFinally, the bill removes the time limit within which the Minister of Conservation may recommend the early expiry of the moratorium in the specific area that it cancels requests. The current time limit of 20 working-days is insufficient to complete the Order in Council process. The bill does not impose a new time frame, but gives the Minister a general duty to avoid all unreasonable delay. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000493\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d52e59e3-2195-4c95-a654-665c11b39b63\u0022\u003EIn summary, this bill provides for a limited extension to the aquaculture moratorium, and deals with some process problems arising for marine farmers from the current dual permitting regime. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u002298ceba295abd41c293a841794939899c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000494\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002298ceba295abd41c293a841794939899c\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E Mr Speaker, you will recall that we opposed this moratorium when it came in 2 years ago. I want it on the record that the National Party opposes it now. It is with some irony that the Government puts up the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs to introduce this bill to extend the moratorium. Clearly, he never read the commentary on the bill for the original moratorium that went before us 2 years ago. Had he read it, he would know that the commentary says that we received 143 submissions\u2014how many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000495\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c2b03014dfd4a26920b928fca970910\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: 143.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000496\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022feabd94b4cf9458cb8947b5a62a4cacc\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: All M\u0101ori groups opposed aspects of this bill. The following key issues were raised by M\u0101ori when it came to the moratorium in 2001. They said it had negative impacts on M\u0101ori development\u2014and I ask, what has changed? It still has negative impacts on M\u0101ori development. They said that the water within their rohe was of concern\u2014it still is of concern. M\u0101ori said back then that there were adverse effects on existing treaty settlements\u2014there still are, so what has changed? They opposed the moratorium then and I assume they oppose it now. M\u0101ori said there had been a lack of consultation by the Crown when the moratorium came in, and I assume that is the case now. So I ask why the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs has so much confidence bringing this bill\u2014an extension of that very moratorium\u2014into the House today. Is he out there batting for his people? Does he know what they believe in, or does he not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000497\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe aquaculture industry is a multimillion-dollar industry. It benefits M\u0101ori who are involved in it, it benefits all New Zealanders who are involved in it, and it benefits the wider economy. I am led to believe by the New Zealand Aquaculture Council that with managed expansion this industry could achieve export earnings of $1 billion by 2020 through 17,000 hectares of aquaculture farms\u2014just 17,000 hectares, which is not a lot considering the water space available to New Zealanders. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000498\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Aquaculture Council says that these forecasts are dependent on this one assumption: that new legislation put up by this Government would be enabling, and that there would not be undue delays in developing coastal plans. All we have seen from this Government are undue delays. It has put in place a moratorium of 2 years to enable it to get its act together, and another 9-month moratorium extension. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000499\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EHere is a question that was put to the Minister in March 2003: \u201CGiven that the Government\u2019s moratorium is due to end on 31 March 2004, is the Minister able to confirm that the moratorium will absolutely end on that date?\u201D Who asked that question? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000500\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002291bdf0043e1648baa3e3a1b9cea91a90\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Who did?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000501\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247033723aafe442699ada60230811770\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Jim Peters asked that question. He asked in March whether the moratorium would absolutely end on that date. What was Pete Hodgson\u2019s answer to Jim Peters? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000502\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002209f877ca42e04a24a173e96a225d1292\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: Yes!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000503\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a262d39e3ee3464d82bba7d816e6525d\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it will absolutely end on that date. That is why Minister Hodgson is not fronting this bill today in the House of Representatives, because he said yes, and the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs said no. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000504\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EThe Government would have us believe that the foreshore and seabed issue is the sole reason that it has to extend this moratorium. That is what it said in the House last week, and that is what the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs says now. I have a document leaked by Local Government New Zealand that clearly puts the blame on the Ministry of Fisheries and the Minister, because regional councils have not been able to cope with aquaculture development in their areas through the course of this moratorium. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000505\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EHere is the story of three people. Last week the Minister was asked in the House why he had not delivered the promised legislative framework for aquaculture, and why it was necessary to extend the moratorium. This is what the Minister said: \u201CIt is important to ensure that the proposed aquaculture law reforms are consistent with the resolution of the foreshore and seabed issue.\u201D This is what I asked in the House last week: \u201CCan the Minister assure the House that the Ministry of Fisheries has been helpful to regional councils in planning the future of marine farming, and that the moratorium was not extended simply because councils have no faith in the Ministry of Fisheries?\u201D. This is what the Minister said: \u201CI offer that assurance. It is due to the seabed issue, not because regional councils have concerns.\u201D Yet this report by Local Government New Zealand states: \u201CThere are considerable uncertainties surrounding the shape and detail of the new aquaculture regime, and this has caused almost all regional councils to put their planning of aquaculture on the backburner. They want more clarity; there is considerable uncertainty. Additionally, regional councils believe that the delays in transition to the proposed aquaculture regime will be compounded by fundamental weaknesses in the Government\u2019s proposed model.\u201D That is what regional councils said, and that is what the Minister told us in the House\u2014clearly, someone is not telling it straight. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000506\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ELast week in the House I asked: \u201CCan the Minister confirm that the moratorium was extended, not because of the seabed and foreshore fiasco, but because regional councils throughout New Zealand have consistently told him they have no faith in the draft aquaculture reform legislation, that the Ministry of Fisheries has been unhelpful, and that, consequently, they have had to put all of their aquaculture planning on hold? Can he confirm that the complication is not just with seabed, foreshore, and M\u0101ori, but with regional councils?\u201D The Minister denied it. He said: \u201CNo, I certainly cannot confirm that.\u201D He said it was all about the seabed and foreshore. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000507\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI turn to the document written by Local Government New Zealand. The Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs should sit up, stop slouching, and listen, because this is what regional councils say. They say that the weakness in the Government\u2019s plans is the inability to designate aquaculture management areas in the absence of essential fisheries-related information held by the Ministry of Fisheries being shared with them, along with the apparent gaps in, and the inadequacies of, that information. Regional councils have been flying blind. The Government demanded that regional councils plan for aquaculture over the last 2 years. Local Government New Zealand says the Ministry of Fisheries has not shared essential fisheries and planning information. Further, what information it does hold, is entirely inadequate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000508\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003ELocal Government New Zealand says that little progress has been made under this 2-year moratorium. Most regional councils have put planning on hold. They are afraid that they will look to allocate space with no direction from the Government, that the Government will give space to M\u0101ori without informing them how much space will be given to M\u0101ori, how it will allocate it to M\u0101ori, how M\u0101ori will pay for that space\u2014if they pay for it\u2014and how that affects aquaculturists currently in the industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000509\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003EI put this issue to the House: regional councils have been flying blind. The Government should front up and admit that this moratorium is because it is not working closely with, and helping, regional councils throughout this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022 data-id=\u002254483fe909cf461d878953b81acfeb88\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000510\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5b3ede3-ae58-4862-b45d-b4c8f3280960\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002254483fe909cf461d878953b81acfeb88\u0022\u003EMAHARA OKEROA (Labour\u2014Te Tai Tonga):\u003C/span\u003E I stand here to support this bill unreservedly. It is an absolute response to an environmental issue that needs to be sorted. As far as the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs is concerned, he is also the Acting Minister of Fisheries at this time. I am sure that I needed to add that correction.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022 data-id=\u00221865b8bf52a045eaaae984cfc24261de\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000511\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221865b8bf52a045eaaae984cfc24261de\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E Phil Heatley has already picked up on the question that I asked in March, and I ask it again in relation to looking at the resource management aquaculture moratorium extension, and the original legislation as well. The question to the Acting Minister that I wish to begin with is: can he confidently tell us and the industry whether applications that are lodged after 1 January 2005 can be processed? That is the initial question that I asked in March, and the answer was yes. Unless he can give a confident and clear-cut yes answer now, then we may as well put this in the rubbish bin, and go away and have tea, for all the value that is there. The disappointing issue about that would be that this is a major growing industry in this country. Some regional councils\u2014one that I have been working with, in particular\u2014took the Minister to heart, and are now in the second planning stage with regard to the draft aquaculture marine areas, or the areas to be set aside. They were well prepared to have started on 1 April to process applications, if the ministry had done its work. I said \u201Cif the ministry had done its work\u201D, and that is really the key here. The ministry obviously has not done its work, at all. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000512\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWhat are some of the issues that the ministry would have to look at? The most important one, and this is the reason why this is a nonsense sort of bill, is that absolutely no help is given to the industry at all on the key issues, and they are: how can marine farming rights within the aquaculture marine areas be allocated, and what is the principle under which they will take place? The strange thing is that in the foreword to the bill we have all this loose talk about reforms. I see no evidence, in the whole of the moratorium period, of any processing of reform implications in any way at all over the last 18 months. Nothing is forecast in this bill that will give any help to the industry at all. The industry is ready and out there, waiting to move. It is very appropriate that the Minister of M\u0101ori Affairs was the one who came to the House with the bill, as he knows, and I know, that there is no doubt out there that hap\u016B and iwi all over the country are willing and waiting to start now. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000513\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThat brings me to the second issue that has happened in recent times. Members on the other side of the House have hawked around a ridiculous idea of a 20 percent allocation. They have gone around, from marae to marae, and suggested a Cabinet fall-back of a 20 percent allocation to M\u0101ori of the aquaculture marine areas. That is patent nonsense. I was up in Parengarenga Harbour recently. They expect, and could expect, 100 percent in that area, not 20 percent, which is a useless type of threshold argument developed somewhere down here. But that has been developed, and the member knows it has been developed. That is evidence of the walk-over by Cabinet on the M\u0101ori members on the other side of the House. Accept a Cabinet idea; take it. It is an easy way out. Do it, and move on to the next matter. It is expedient, but it is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000514\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe other issue, of course, with regard to marine farming rights in the allocation, is how the tendering will work. That is the key factor for the industry. How does the tendering system really work? There has been no help here. What criteria would a successful tenderer be required to set out in an application to establish a marine farm? No help has been given at all; nor has any help been given with regard to the alternative ways to allocate rights. Will we have a \u201Cfirst come first served\u201D basis? Prior to this aquaculture moratorium that, effectively, was the way the system worked. Will all applicants, M\u0101ori and other applicants, have the certainty that they will have the opportunity to develop their application and have a reasonable chance of success? We know that a mini gold rush has taken place in marine farming, which has caused this to come into being in the first place, particularly with regard to the Marlborough district. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000515\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThere has been no advice at all to the industry about those who were not well resourced being able to have the same opportunity as Sanfords or any other major players in the marine farming industry. There is no knowledge at all about those who hoped, particularly iwi and hap\u016B, that they could in their limited way\u2014in their harbour or coastal space\u2014be able to meet their aspirations. There was not a bit of help at all, apart from one little visit by the Minister of Fisheries recently to Whangaruru Harbour. There has been no help at all to the industry as to what will be the agreed criteria for applications, with regard to the assessment. Do we go on the past record of the industry participant? Do we go on the financial stability of the successful or would-be successful applicant? Do we take it, as we would wish to in most of these cases, that the contribution to the local and regional economy will be taken into account in the final application? Those are all very important matters that will guide the future of this industry, and there has not been one word at all in the body of opinion sought from the Ministry of Fisheries. The ministry has been silent. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000516\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EWe come to the time when a mini-bill has been flipped into the House at late notice, without any certainty about the future at all for an industry that has the capacity with regard to oysters. From a hectare block of well-grown oysters one should be able to produce about 6,700 dozen oysters per year. The return to the oyster growers would be about $20,000 per hectare. The indirect return\u2014the off-site return\u2014would be about $17,500. The return on mussels is almost the same. It has a huge potential. In a small region like Northland at the present time we have roughly 700 hectares in aquaculture. We could, with correct planning, have upwards of 20,000 hectares available as from the date that this bill ceases to have any impact. That is the size of the industry. That is the potential. That is the opportunity. There are the jobs. There is no doubt that in many of our rural districts this is a unique opportunity either for direct or joint venture or for other ways to get into a long-term, profitable, and sustainable industry. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000517\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe last thing, in that regard, is that there has been adequate time for regional councils to have done their work. There has been adequate time for them to have met with their communities. In this country, as members know, we have a long-term direct link with the coast, the beach, the sand, and the salt spray. That has all been part of our past, it is part of our present, and will be part of our future. The marine farming industry would not wish to disturb that long-held belief, and the activity that is part of the coast and the sea. The marine farming industry wants to have an opportunity. It wants to be part of an income-earning capacity that is known and that is just beginning to emerge. But the moratorium is a step in the development being canned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000518\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003EThe last thing with regard to the industry, though, is this. Why did the Government ever impose a national moratorium? Why did the Government not work with those areas that were known to have marine farming potential? Why did parts of Otago and Southland, which will never be involved, have the same universal and national stance imposed upon them? It was very wrong indeed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000519\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cba965bb-864f-4e06-99dc-6fcdfd007ad5\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002288c81fd602fa4b1ab5346ca1fff75960\u0022\u003EPita Paraone\u003C/span\u003E: It was dumb!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000520\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a08100cf1d94c328f9bc833132c6332\u0022\u003EJIM PETERS\u003C/span\u003E: It was a very dumb decision. It was unneeded. What the Government should have done, instead, is worked with those areas that were potentially known and had development\u2014worked with them with regard to the marine farming issues that I have outlined, particularly the ones with regard to marine farming rights and tendering. The New Zealand First view would be that we should foster and encourage those. We could have had the situation today where, on 30 March or 1 April 2004, marine farming applications could begin to be processed. Members of the House will not be aware of the intense pressure that will come ahead, because this moratorium bill is not wanted and not needed. It will only impose a long-term impasse upon what could be high income and high development. New Zealand First opposes the bill absolutely.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000521\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003ESitting suspended from 6 p.m. to 7.30 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022 data-id=\u00229685aeaf53c8426ebcd0f72ede4c23db\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000522\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cbb83aab-9566-44c4-9029-8bda4aaca7f2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229685aeaf53c8426ebcd0f72ede4c23db\u0022\u003EPHIL HEATLEY (National\u2014Whangarei):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek leave to table a report from Local Government New Zealand dated November 2003 criticising the Government\u2019s 2-year moratorium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000523\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ee8e35439bbe437292dd44b1c035bee8\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Is there any objection to that being tabled? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022 data-id=\u00221ca7aa7a2f484d6eb56faa679750b38b\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000524\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ca7aa7a2f484d6eb56faa679750b38b\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this bill. I will take a moment to reflect on the previous bill that we have just passed in this House. It is one of the extraordinary ironies of this Parliament that here we are trying to get a moratorium through on an industry that is potentially worth $4 billion to this country. That is one of the estimates that have been made by the industry. Here we are trying to slow that down or almost stop it. On the other hand, we are fast tracking Project Aqua, which will probably have one of the most deleterious impacts on one of the great rivers in this country. Perhaps I am a little off track on this particular subject, but it just strikes me as something of an extraordinary irony. The aquaculture industry accounts for 15 percent of New Zealand\u2019s seafood exports at this time and is growing very, very rapidly. But perhaps I should correct myself; it used to grow very, very rapidly until the Government stepped in and said: \u201CWe can\u2019t keep pace with this industry. We\u2019re going to place a moratorium, but don\u2019t worry about it. It will be for only a short period of time.\u201D We are now back in the House extending that moratorium for another 12 months. I suspect that in 12 months\u2019 time towards the end of 2004 we will be back again extending that moratorium. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000525\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EFor a moment or two it is also worth reflecting on the fact that there are some problems associated with this industry, not the least of which, of course, is that it is controlled by three Acts\u2014the Resource Management Act, the Fisheries Act, and the Marine Farming Act. There is a real need for this legislation to be either modified, or placed under one overall controlling body, to ensure that this industry has real growth, and the potential can be realised. But to stop this industry for another 12 months is absolutely outrageous. This basically is saying to an industry that is chomping at the bit to get going: \u201CWait, because we officials have not put in place this wonderful, overall, overarching plan that we feel is so essential to ensure continuity and growth in the industry.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000526\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EIt strikes me as being quite perverse. No other major industry is held in abeyance while the Government tries to catch up with what is happening. The House could reflect on what could have happened when the settlers, or, indeed, M\u0101ori, came to this country and the Government of that time said: \u201CLet\u2019s stop everything and develop a plan for agriculture in this country.\u201D It would have been totally dumb to do that, but that is in fact the effect of what this Government is doing to this country at this time. I repeat: a $4 billion industry\u2014an industry we desperately need\u2014is being put aside while the Government and its officials desperately try to catch up on the problems that are real or perceived. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000527\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThis is not a new industry, and this is what I find quite extraordinary. We have had 25 years of experience in aquaculture from the very first salmon farm in Takaka in the Nelson region. This is not a new concept and a new technology, and once it was applied to the ocean, then new technologies came away and it was progressing very, very favourably. Technology advances at a huge rate, and essentially does not wait for Governments to catch up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000528\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EOne of the great problems is the lack of experience within the Labour Government to actually understand how industry works. The Government should not place this vital industry into a vacuum for another 12 months. Basically, the Government has said: \u201CWe\u2019re suspending this industry. Wait until we decide what to do.\u201D It is quite simple. I would have thought one of the most important things the Government could do is to say: \u201CLet\u2019s look at an area\u2014say, for example, off the Otago coast.\u201D There has been a coastal plan in place for many, many years\u2014I think up to about 4 years now\u2014and the Government could have said to Otago: \u201CLet\u2019s proceed just in your region as a model for what could happen, or, indeed, what should happen, and if mistakes are made we can rectify them in every other area. But a working model is needed to show what can happen or what should happen in other areas.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000529\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe pleas of the Otago Regional Council were ignored, when it virtually pleaded with the Government: \u201CLet us proceed, with certain cautions, of course, and have this working model that we can work out terribly well and see how this impacts on the rest of New Zealand.\u201D That seems to me to be an extraordinarily sensible thing to have done\u2014or it should have been done, but, of course, it has not been done. Why is that? It is basically of the Government\u2019s own making. The Government has said: \u201CWe want to develop an oceans policy because our old friends in the Department of Conservation decided that what they want in the oceans is more important than what industry wants.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000530\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe Government has to decide what areas will be set aside for conservation purposes, what areas could be set aside for just ordinary recreational opportunities, and what areas should be set aside for M\u0101ori. Surely, therein lies the nub of the problem. If the Government said: \u201CWe\u2019re treating everybody in this country exactly the same.\u201D, it would not have a M\u0101ori problem. There would be no foreshore and seabed claim. That would have just totally gone off the radar screen. All the Government had to do was to work out where the areas are for these marine reserves, where it could put aside areas for recreation, and the balance, for example, could be left entirely for the industry to decide whether in fact the technology is sufficiently advanced to place marine farms even 10 kilometres off the coast. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000531\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThat could have been done, and should have been done, but it is because we put these impediments in front of ourselves as a nation that we now find this industry being held in abeyance yet again. It is absolutely unnecessary to have done so. For example, we hear that there are criticisms of what is perceived as some sort of gold-rush mentality. Where is the problem? If people wished to develop an area of 20,000 acres or 15,000 hectares, for example, after a period of time and they do not use this area, it is quite simple for the Government to say: \u201CUnless this is up and working within this period of time the licence will lapse and it will go to the next tenderer so he or she can put capital into this area.\u201D, and away we go again. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000532\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThere certainly is some element of gold rush in it. Everybody who is interested in this particular industry is having a crack, knowing there is a huge resource out there from which some dollars can be made. But, most important, we can actually employ another 10,000 or 15,000 people in this industry if we develop it the way it should be developed. It must be developed along the lines of ensuring that the security of investment is 100 percent. It is absolutely essential to ensure continuity of this industry so that it can fulfil the destiny that the fishing industry really does have. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000533\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003EThe demand for seafood is exponential, and New Zealand is beautifully placed to meet a huge portion of that demand, but one of the great fears I have is that the technology and knowledge will be lost overseas during this moratorium.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u002278397588e0004ef7a89fe183a17c6b13\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000534\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002278397588e0004ef7a89fe183a17c6b13\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E On behalf of the Green Party I rise to make a short contribution to the debate on the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill and to signal that the Green Party is supporting this legislation. The Green Party thinks that it is very unfortunate that the aquaculture legislation has been held up. Crucially significant issues have got in the way and become a temporary obstacle to progressing the legislation, in particular the issues around the foreshore and seabed. Those policy issues have implications in terms of whether we will see another Treaty of Waitangi breach in our modern times as a result of Government policy, and what the role of tangata whenua will be in making decisions and participating in making decisions around resource management in that marine environment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000535\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThose are crucial decisions that have to be resolved by this Government, and the aquaculture legislation cannot really progress until those things have been resolved. The moratorium was originally put in place and needed so that a proper regulatory system could be put in place. That system is not yet in place. The Greens believe that there is no alternative but to extend the moratorium until such a system has been properly developed. As I say, that is why we are supporting this bill, unfortunate though the need may be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000536\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe understand that the industry is impatient to get on to develop the aquaculture industry, and there are huge prospects, as Mr Eckhoff has mentioned. We understand that, but we do believe that return to the unregulated gold rush that was occurring before the moratorium is simply unacceptable. Mr Eckhoff accepted that there was some gold-rush mentality and he said that the industry has huge potential if it develops as it should. That is the crucial point. There needs to be some regulation to ensure that it develops in a proper way that maintains the balance between the industry developments and the conservation and ecological values. As I said, unfortunate though it may be, the extension of the moratorium is important. The Green Party will be supporting the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022 data-id=\u0022db71d825610a4e179d85409427062467\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000537\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022db71d825610a4e179d85409427062467\u0022\u003ELARRY BALDOCK (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on behalf of United Future on the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill. The moratorium began in November 2001 and was due to finish on 25 March 2004. This bill will extend it to 31 December 2004\u2014or earlier, if things are in place by that time to enable it to be lifted. The moratorium was implemented to stop a rush towards developing new marine farms before reforms to clarify the aquaculture industry\u2019s ad hoc legislative and administrative framework could be put in place. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000538\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe aquaculture industry itself is strongly opposed to any extension of the moratorium, as it was to the original moratorium, and United Future understands that position. In fact, United Future considers a 9-month extension of the existing moratorium on new marine farms to be highly undesirable. However, we understand that the long-awaited aquaculture reform legislation that will make it possible for the moratorium to be lifted cannot go ahead until the seabed and foreshore issue has been satisfactorily resolved. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000539\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThe aquaculture industry has the potential for huge growth, and there is a huge opportunity cost in preventing that growth for any period of time. The industry currently earns approximately $312 million per year and it definitely has the potential to be generating $1 billion per year by 2020 if the Government lets it. It was experiencing very rapid growth before the moratorium was put in place, but is now in danger of stagnating, and falling behind our overseas competitors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000540\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EThere is also the very real possibility that would-be investors in New Zealand aquaculture will start taking their investment dollars off shore to places like Australia, South America, and Europe. However, as unfortunate as the extension of the moratorium is, United Future knows that the foreshore and seabed issue has to be resolved before any new aquaculture legislation can be completed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000541\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EAlso, once the moratorium has been lifted, and all the pre-reform regulatory hurdles and structural roadblocks to growth have been removed, we are confident that the New Zealand aquaculture industry will be able to recover its rapid growth track. With the pristine New Zealand environment, and the highly profitable marketing opportunities that come with that, aquaculture investors will not be able to pass up a good thing and will come flooding back. When those further regulatory and legislative measures are put in place, as United Future we hope to see aquaculture marine areas extended to become aquaculture marine parks, so that they will be not only aquaculture marine areas developed by regional councils but they will also incorporate land-based areas as well to enable those involved in aquaculture farming to develop land-based activities necessarily connected to their marine activities that would receive the same resource consent processes as would apply to aquaculture marine areas. We will be continuing to discuss that with the Government as we approach that legislation in the New Year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000542\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221e93d9c8-b183-40db-b200-833697df066c\u0022\u003EIn the meantime United Future will be monitoring developments closely and we urge the Government to take all measures possible to resolve the foreshore and seabed issue and to enable this moratorium to be lifted as soon as possible. We will be supporting this bill through its first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u00226aab8ac113514d3eb32fd62d27041628\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000543\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226aab8ac113514d3eb32fd62d27041628\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I rise in support of this bill, and after the previous speaker, with an eminently sensible approach to the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill. This is obviously a reality that this Government is prepared to face, and I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022 data-id=\u002272a973df5c9841a7adb3b51dd6c46089\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000544\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002272a973df5c9841a7adb3b51dd6c46089\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER (National):\u003C/span\u003E Following on from that contribution from Steve Chadwick I wonder whether she would also like to take the opportunity to explain why on 31 March this year Mr Pete Hodgson said: \u201CThe Government has no wish to extend the moratorium on consideration of new resource consent application for aquaculture which expires in March 2004.\u201D He went on to say: \u201CWe still intend to ensure the aquaculture reform legislation is introduced and considered by Parliament by then.\u201D Pete Hodgson had one of those years from hell. He was the great strategist of the Labour Party who undertook to make sure aquaculture reform legislation was presented to the House. He struck a first problem, so did the easy thing and imposed the moratorium, guaranteeing to Parliament and to the industry that under no circumstances would it be extended beyond March 2004. Here we are in December, 4 months before the expiry, and all of a sudden we are rushing through further legislation in the name of Marian Hobbs to extend the moratorium, and consequently constrain the potential of one of those really interesting industries of New Zealand. So it is no surprise to me that Mr Hodgson has not yet taken a call on this legislation, because he is as embarrassed by it as he was over the flatulence tax issue\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000545\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a337779a5eb04814a5278031ac2be511\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s also in Italy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000546\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0ee5f15f92649a895d7b3a743381fdd\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: He is so scared to present the legislation that he jumps on a plane to Italy thinking that that will be an excuse for not having to justify the extension of the moratorium. I bet while he is in Italy he will be talking about climate change. The other big embarrassment for Pete Hodgson is that he guaranteed there would be no \u201Cfart tax\u201D. Mr Benson-Pope did not remember this. Mr Hodgson guaranteed there would be none, and then imposed the \u201Cfart tax\u201D. Farmers got up in arms. He guaranteed there would not be a back-down, said something in Parliament to the effect that there might be a back-up. Well, a couple of weeks later, after Shane Ardern took his tractor up the steps of Parliament\u2014dear old Myrtle\u2014there was Mr Pete Hodgson again backing down on that, just as he is backing down tonight on his guarantee to the industry not to extend the moratorium. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000547\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EMr Benson-Pope, the senior Government whip, would be better to stop interjecting with inane comments that Mr Hodgson is on important public business in Milan as he tries to convince the Russian Prime Minister that he should rethink his commitment to the Kyoto Protocol. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000548\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWithout doubt the National Party will oppose this legislation, and we will do it for two reasons. The first is the issue I have just been talking about. We expected the country to believe Mr Hodgson when he stood in Parliament and in front of the industry on a number of occasions and said: \u201CRead my lips. Legislation will not be required to extend the moratorium.\u201D So we know how good the word of Mr Pete Hodgson is! The second reason that the National Party stands here tonight to oppose this legislation is that\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000549\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a56b0deb2954fb48b04b02af5f13bb1\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s stupid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000550\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022686403f48f824f288f653113ed1b1e42\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: I could not agree more; this is very stupid legislation. [Interruption] They will be whipping down shortly and asking him to shut up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000551\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe second reason is that this Government has on a number of occasions stood in the House and said it seriously wants to address the potential decline of New Zealand\u2019s ranking within the OECD. The economic growth rate of New Zealand is not satisfactory. The Government talked about getting us back into the top half of the OECD by 2011, and when that got a little bit difficult it forgot there was a target. Helen Clark said that, no, she had just signed a piece of paper but had not read the context. In actual fact there was no target date of 2011. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000552\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EWhat I say is that this country has no chance at all of getting itself back into the top half of the OECD growth rankings if it continues to stifle an industry as important as aquaculture. What I hope Mr Hodgson and Marian Hobbs have learnt after the imposition of this moratorium is that moratoriums are the easiest things in the world to impose. If one cannot see a solution to a problem, then rush down into the House and put on a moratorium\u2014as the Government did with genetic engineering, and as it has done with aquaculture\u2014and then think about how to get out of the moratorium. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000553\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThat is where the Government has got itself into a bind. It has found it is a little harder to settle this issue\u2014made harder by itself\u2014because it has confused it with the seabed and foreshore ownership issues, which again Helen Clark rushed down into this House and said she would solve instantly by introducing legislation. That was months ago. As we embark on our Christmas holidays in the not-too-distant future, now we have threats from M\u0101ori, saying they are going to occupy the beaches and protest when people use the beaches. That is the reason Mr Hodgson and Marian Hobbs have not been able to find a solution to the aquaculture issues. That is the reason we have this bill placed before us today extending the moratorium until at least the end of the next calendar year. The point I want to make justifying why nobody should support a moratorium, is about the potential that this industry has. It is a $260 million export industry, with huge potential to increase that with aquaculture sites, many, many of which are available in the Marlborough Sounds, for example\u2014an area I know very well, but which is unable to make progress, because this Government has slapped a moratorium on permanent applications. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000554\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EI listened with interest to United Future, which made the comment that would-be investors might be tempted to go off shore. Well, I can tell the United Future party tonight that I have spoken to investors who have made the decision to go off shore; they had money they wanted to invest in the New Zealand aquaculture industry, but the Government said they could not and that it was slapping on a moratorium. Those people have taken their money and gone off shore and invested in aquaculture out of New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000555\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ca81edd4c474b61aeaa317ae8a18285\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s off shore.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000556\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23a39de79c24772b93451edbf84e025\u0022\u003EHon DAVID CARTER\u003C/span\u003E: David Benson-Pope laughs and says aquaculture is off shore. Well, if he thinks that is funny, I do not. I am more worried about creating wealth in New Zealand. If Mr Benson-Pope thinks it is good to pass legislation that chases our investors off shore, that is his opinion but it is not mine. We have an industry that has come before Parliament, has come to the Government, and said: \u201CGive us the chance and we could quadruple this industry in a matter of a decade.\u201D They say it could be a billion-dollar industry, and all they need is the legislative framework to get on and do the job. But, no, this Government is so anti-business, so anti - wealth creation, that here, 9 months after a solemn promise from the Minister of Fisheries that he would not extend the moratorium, we are back in Parliament debating the issue again, extending the moratorium until the end of next year. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000557\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003EThe Government has got this issue wrong. The Government should solve the issue around aquaculture. It should realise the potential it has for growth creation. It should solve the seabed issue, and do it with the gumption that the Prime Minister showed when the issue first arose, when she said: \u201CWe\u2019ll change the law. We\u2019ll clarify this issue.\u201D But she has gone to ground ever since. The real reason we are here extending this legislation is that the Government has not resolved the foreshore and seabed issue. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022 data-id=\u0022357fa6f974934069b6cde6ed05a5df33\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000558\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002275a05f96-2474-4c90-a6ea-cf7b5798e03e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022357fa6f974934069b6cde6ed05a5df33\u0022\u003EHon RUTH DYSON (Minister for ACC):\u003C/span\u003E It gives me great pleasure to rise in support of the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill. I support its further progress through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022 data-id=\u0022257d974e0a224aa29d3af0c006b2f837\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000559\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022257d974e0a224aa29d3af0c006b2f837\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH (National\u2014Nelson):\u003C/span\u003E I am privileged to represent one of the largest aquaculture centres of New Zealand, where 360\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000560\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dac596535b004d8aa7b9ebe2d5480796\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Not for much longer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000561\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc75492ed7dd4a1abd581d78eb5c85c2\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, the member for Whanganui speaks! What happened to the member for Whanganui\u2019s majority at the last election? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000562\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227b318bc6ac146dea1ab41c2335b465b\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: Stay calm! Stay calm!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000563\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225694424823b644689501a5feca94b789\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I say to Mr Benson-Pope that if he spent some time focusing on the bill, rather than playing dirty personalities in this House, this country might have a future. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000564\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa0f0a867e3c4eacb8f6d4568fd93cf5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s playing with the member. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000565\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022203d4198e9ff48d5acbf7cd1a51d91aa\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I come back to the bill. Oh, that disgusting member who bonks boys; I do not know about him. I come back to the issue of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000566\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e87979cd1e4d8e82a6a19290bff640\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. Are you going to deal with that, or not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000567\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7e6d661ca7d4653bf662e310cf868e2\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Yes. [Interruption] The member will stand, withdraw, and apologise.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000568\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022517580fef36c43a2a723051ad53cac1b\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I withdraw and apologise. It serves the member right for what he said earlier in the day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000569\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227739425174b24b509ed26610436174fd\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. [Interruption] When I am on my feet there will be silence. The member cannot comment after he has been asked to withdraw and apologise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000570\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d683f476eded4326b85b31e071597b52\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: I want to speak to the bill, and to say this bill is about stopping growth in one of the most important industries for my community of Nelson. The aquaculture industry, over the last 12 or 13 years, has grown from an industry that employed a few hundred people to an industry that employs thousands. What this Government did, 2 years ago, was to introduce a moratorium that has frozen the growth of the industry. My concern is that this Government has failed to meet its own timetable, and is taking away the opportunity for communities like Nelson, and communities in other parts of the country, to be able to grow and create wealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000571\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThat brings us immediately to the mess that the Government has made of the foreshore and seabed issue. If there is any area in which this Government has failed to provide leadership, it is on that issue. This is a country in which much depends on fishing and the ocean environment in terms of wealth creation, yet this Government is prepared to see the aquaculture industry subject to huge uncertainty in terms of the legal rights in that marine space. This aquaculture moratorium simply engages those involved in the industry in further uncertainty. People in the aquaculture industry have said to me that they feel under siege on every single front. Whether it is with regard to the Resource Management Act, the moratorium, or the foreshore and seabed issue, this Government is killing one of our most important growth opportunities. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000572\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI would like to know from the next Government speaker just what the Government\u2019s policy is in terms of the ownership of the foreshore and seabed. Over the last 6 months, we have had a different position every month. We firstly had the position that the Government would legislate for the foreshore and seabed to be owned by the Crown. The Government then changed from that position. The latest idea is that the Government will provide special legislation whereby there will be customary title for iwi around New Zealand. What does that mean for the hundreds of New Zealanders who invest their livelihoods in that industry? What does it mean for them? It means more uncertainty\u2014and uncertainty that is provided by this Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000573\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThis bill is also further evidence of the Government\u2019s mess within the Resource Management Act. Only earlier today we were debating the Resource Management (Waitaki Catchment) Bill, which creates a separate set of rules just for the Government, so that it can build the largest hydro scheme in New Zealand for 30 years. Why does the Government on the one hand want to fast track legislation so it can build six dams on the Waitaki River, yet on the other hand now want to freeze the development of the aquaculture industry? That is mistaken, and it is preferential treatment. Quite frankly, more growth for New Zealand would be derived from developing the aquaculture industry in a sustainable way than from building more dams on the Waitaki River. We should take that economic opportunity, and not extend this moratorium further. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000574\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EMy colleague David Carter has raised the issue of what has changed. Only earlier this year, the Minister of Fisheries, Pete Hodgson, gave an absolute commitment to this House that the moratorium would not be extended. Well, how many more times will it be extended? I will put money on it that before this legislation expires, there will be another moratorium extension bill, and the industry will be frozen again in terms of its growth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000575\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI also want to point out the erroneous approach taken in this bill in terms of the applications that are already in the system. Do members know that only 34 hectares of new marine farms have been approved during the term of this Government? That is a freezing of the industry, and I want to know why it is not possible for districts like Tasman, which have well-developed resource management plans, to implement those plans and allow that sustainable industry to grow. Why is it that the Government, through Pete Hodgson and its other Ministers, wants to overrule the Tasman District Council, which is all ready to go and has spent millions of dollars on sorting out the rules for the development of aquaculture in the Nelson region, and specifically in Tasman Bay and Golden Bay. Why is it that this Government, which gives us repeated lectures about self-government and about local government being able to make local decisions, in the run-up to Christmas is then running a bill through the House that cuts completely across local decision-making and allowing the aquaculture industry to be able to get on and grow? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000576\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EI say to the Ministers and Government members that they have failed. The Government has failed; Labour has failed. I ask United Future why it is joining the Labour Government in this failure. This Government has had 2 years to sort out a proper process for considering aquaculture. Why is it that for 2 years the Government has not been able to get its act together to meet its own timetable, and is now further freezing the industry? I would like to know whether the Ministry for Economic Development has worked out how many jobs and export dollars this bill will cost New Zealand. It will be a matter of hundreds of jobs and of millions of dollars of lost export earnings for this country. Now, I know Government members do not seem to give a hoot about creating wealth for this country, and are quite happy to see our standard of living continue to decline relative to that of countries like Australia. The reason it is continuing to decline is that the Government is advancing legislation of this sort, which takes away opportunities for New Zealand to create wealth. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000577\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003EThe last point I wish to make is this, and it is a challenge to the M\u0101ori MPs within this Government. Not one of those members has chosen to participate in this debate, yet the largest number of the applications that are to be frozen under this aquaculture moratorium legislation are from iwi\u2014from M\u0101ori. So for all the weasel words from the Labour Government about supporting wealth creation amongst M\u0101ori and iwi, here is a bill that will freeze those M\u0101ori organisations out of the industry for another year, when they have already been frozen out for 2 years. I want to ask the member for Rotorua why that is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000578\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022520fff243a6646609fd242dabfb724b5\u0022\u003ESteve Chadwick\u003C/span\u003E: Because that member from Marlborough\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022785db1e17f6c42a9a1caa97b854da6cb\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: Well, actually I am not from Marlborough; the member should get her geography right. I would say it is because that member and her colleagues have not advanced a sensible set of rules. M\u0101ori are being denied jobs and the opportunity to be able to create wealth, and it is a tragedy for M\u0101ori and for all New Zealanders. I say to the member for Rotorua that she should stand up, take a call, and defend this nonsense. This Government has failed, and the member for Banks Peninsula has failed. The Government has failed to provide a sensible framework for the development of this industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000580\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb73f46266b34372a5da75a6791e3c8a\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: There\u2019s a very successful deputy leader on his feet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000581\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e978865e-57e5-41d6-a7f6-b49daae78630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b513c05d453444c82282501065f0ae7\u0022\u003EHon Dr NICK SMITH\u003C/span\u003E: That member wants to get personal. He does not argue the issue or get to his feet to talk about aquaculture. The only thing that member is good at is bullying and driving down standards in education. He has been successful in that; he is driving down standards in education. He is also good at wrecking personalities, but he will never achieve anything constructive in this House. It is a pity that he did not, as Minister, apply his time to the aquaculture law, so that he could create some wealth and jobs for ordinary New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222c62a8a7f787422cb36e8fd0171df423\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022a73a974c250b426b857acfd2d15381b2\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000582\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a73a974c250b426b857acfd2d15381b2\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries: I move, That the Resource Management (Aquaculture Moratorium Extension) Amendment Bill be considered by the Primary Production Committee, and that the committee report the bill finally to the House by Monday, 1 March 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00222ca90ea201f74e0a918438e0345c1ba8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 69\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 48\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000583\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00221da685bd8397410f915d0320d292edf9\u0022\u003EState Sector Amendment Bill (No 3)\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000584\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022388e79d9474c45f3ac0bd4d1c21a65dd\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022764b9f11884e4907b169f280a93816a8\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000585\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022764b9f11884e4907b169f280a93816a8\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time. I will recommend to the House that the bill be referred to the Education and Science Committee for consideration and for reporting back to the House by 19 March 2004. The States Services Commissioner currently has statutory responsibility for collective bargaining for employees of school boards of trustees. This bill gives the commissioner the associated bargaining tools available to employers under the Employment Relations Act, including the power to discontinue the pay of striking employees. It does not stop schools funding strikers from locally raised or operational funding if they choose to do so. The bill also includes provisions to limit the payment of redundancy compensation to employees affected when schools merge or close, in order to make sure that teachers are not paid twice for the same period of time. It also ensures that principals in those merged schools are appointed on merit. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u002295e03e62302c4b20a81224263a0120ad\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000586\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002295e03e62302c4b20a81224263a0120ad\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party will be opposing the bill. That is not just because Trevor Mallard put it up, although that is a good reason. The reason I say that is because this bill is more bully-boy tactics. This legislation should be a warning to people who think that Trevor Mallard does not like them or what they do. If he does not like them, he will take up the time of the House in passing legislation that will give him a bigger stick to beat them with, and that is what this bill is about. In this case, it happens that I share some of his views about the Post Primary Teachers Association, but not all of them, and I certainly do not share enough of those views to support this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000587\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis bill would be more correctly called \u201CLast Year\u2019s Strike Revenge Bill\u201D, because that Minister was put on the political rack by the secondary teachers, by the Post Primary Teachers Association itself, and by his own colleagues. He had eroded the traditionally close relationship between Labour and the Post Primary Teachers Association so much that even in the face of an election, it would not settle. That damaged Trevor Mallard\u2019s credibility permanently. Every night on television, parents saw teachers and children marching. They saw anger and bitterness, and the escalation of those feelings whenever he went into the room to negotiate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000588\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThis year he has decided to get all the sticks lined up for next year, and here it is. The State Services Commissioner will now have all the usual rights, duties, and powers of an employer for the purpose of, or in relation to, collective agreement negotiations. I congratulate the Minister on at least being upfront. He does not hide behind bureaucratic terminology. The explanatory note states: \u201CThis includes the power to discontinue the pay of striking Board employees and to suspend or lock out Board employees \u2026\u201D. That is pretty straight up. I congratulate the Minister\u2014he did not mince his words. Everyone knows how big the stick will be. I want to tell the Minister that it is already having the effect that one would expect. Post Primary Teachers Association union meetings are reflecting at least the same level of bitterness as the last time. In the very short time I have been the education spokesman\u2014about 3 weeks\u2014I have been amazed that in the staffrooms of New Zealand, the National Party spokesman is more respected, less hated, and more welcome than the Minister of Education. This legislation will only make the gap grow. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000589\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe real problem is that Trevor Mallard might be putting the bill through so that he can beat the teachers with a big stick\u2014and beat them a lot harder than last time\u2014but the Labour Government, as a whole, sees it as a logical move back to centralised control of our education system. The normal rights and duties of an employer are to hire and fire. It will not be very long before the Government decides that not only are boards incapable of making judgments about whether to pay their teachers, they are also not very capable of making judgments about which ones to hire. That is worse than the bad old days of the Education Board. It will be back to the States Services Commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000590\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI have no doubt at all that within the term of this Government there will be another State Sector Amendment Bill appropriating more powers to the State Services Commission over our schools and the teachers in them. I know that because I know that the Post Primary Teachers Association will again give Mr Mallard a run for his money in the next industrial round. It will humiliate him again, because this bill will not make much difference. If Mr Mallard is going to go out there beating his chest with this kind of legislation, he had better have the political will to follow through. I can just see the eminently flexible Ms Helen Clark sitting in her Cabinet meetings saying: \u201CTrevor, I know you said you\u2019d lock them out if they went on strike, but I lost two points in the last poll and the Opposition spokesman on education is running rampant. Trevor, I just want you to back off.\u201D This legislation feels good now, but by the middle of next year the Labour Party will wish it had never passed it\u2014just as its members will wish they had never thought of school network reviews. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000591\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EI have some advice for the Minister: why does he not get an assessment from that psychologist at the Ministry of Education who said that our children were being damaged. The children I saw were orderly, forthright, and articulate, but I can see that the Minister is clearly under psychological stress. He shouts, he abuses people, he puts them down at public meetings, and he threatens to walk out if they disagree with him. If I were the Minister, I would spend less time worrying about technical redundancies in school mergers and closures and more time looking after his own psychological welfare. The pressure is only just beginning. Parents are starting to realise, as I have told them, that he is just a bully. No one is holding a gun to people\u2019s heads, it is not inevitable, and their successful school of 250 does not have to be closed. The next time Trevor Mallard turns up, people do not feel quite so fearful. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000592\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThere will be some issues that the select committee will have to deal with, but here is the beauty of creative spin. This bill gives the Minister the power to lock out teachers and stop paying them, because boards kept paying them when they were on strike. Members should look at clause 6, \u201CAmendment to section 65A of Education Act 1989\u201D. It provides that during the course of a strike or lockout, the school is deemed to be open for instruction. When the Government locks teachers out, the school is open. If any other employer locks out employees, the workplace is locked out\u2014there is no one working there. But in the newspeak of this Government, when teachers are locked out, there are no children and teachers are not getting any pay, but the school is deemed to be open. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000593\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022497dbe51109a4fb2bf1643cf1e7feed5\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s exactly what the member did.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000594\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c27e25acad245d098f7ec0ec9d89717\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should get up and tell us why that is the case. If that is already the case, then why is the Minister going to pass this legislation? It must be different, or he would not be passing this legislation, at all, so I look forward to the scrap. This is a case of both pistols being drawn at sixty paces on the left\u2014the Post Primary Teachers Association versus Trevor Mallard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000595\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226b3c5ec12ee944e5b8109f54e9024442\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s going to be nasty.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000596\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e4c70cdd2774a1392da5bd6c9a977ab\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: It is going to be nasty, because there is one of him and there are thousands of them. Their average pay is already over $60,000, so they will not have all the public backing they would expect. In fact, the information for the Government Superannuation scheme tells us that the average secondary teacher\u2019s pay is $65,000, so they cannot expect everyone to be behind them. But nor can Trevor Mallard, because, as parents, we know that this legislation signals that he is in for a last stand with the Post Primary Teachers Association this time. If he thought he was in a better position, he would not need these powers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000597\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat will be the sideshow, but the big game is the continued move back to a centralised, bureaucratic education system, where the Minister, apparently, is the model of all standards and decision-making capabilities. He is the model, he is widely acknowledged as such in the country, and this is all about him making decisions for our children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00228ccfde872b704822a56151f5688401ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000598\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228ccfde872b704822a56151f5688401ce\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E Mr English might think that the public has amnesia, but I want to assure him that they do not. The teaching profession, in particular, remembers only too well what National Parties have done to it in the past. This is a very good bill, and we need to get on and pass it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u002239c4e651100842aaa8be52549006eb72\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000599\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002239c4e651100842aaa8be52549006eb72\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I make a quick reference to statements made by the new National spokesperson on education, Bill English. I have to point out to him that when secondary teachers went on strike during the arguments over the 1996 collective contract, on the days they withdrew their labour, it was considered that schools were open for instruction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000600\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b7e161dd9b0a437f8cd864588a3c3049\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: They were getting paid.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000601\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a2c6fcadf844fc7a5b01dacdac14a59\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: No, they were not getting paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000602\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cb14281baf354690ae64720ea46fc588\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: The boards were paying them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000603\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022313a3ef8283d4451961e6d344a1e92de\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: No, the boards do not pay teachers, and they did not pay them then\u2014they were paid through a centralised system. During that time, the open-for-instruction situation was not applied. I can also tell members that there were hardly any strikes\u2014none in terms of collective contracts\u2014during the time that Wyatt Creech and myself were in the education portfolio together. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EOne of the very few strikes was a wildcat strike by a school in Auckland. When we came into Government with National, the bulk funding issue was swirling angrily through the educational fraternity, and the board of trustees of a secondary school in Auckland was looking seriously at whether it could become bulk funded. The staff decided to go on a wildcat strike. They walked out and kids were told to go home. Then the staff went to the board of trustees\u2014the strike was illegal\u2014and said they wanted the board to ensure that they were paid, in order to demonstrate the board\u2019s goodwill towards them. Even though they had withdrawn their labour, the staff still believed that the board should not write to the ministry and tell it to deduct their pay. If the board did so, the staff said they would go on strike. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000605\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThat is the situation boards have been caught up in, and boards are much closer to the immediate communities the schools serve. They are much closer to staff than Governments are. For example, boards do not have to see the big picture in terms of educational expenditure, so are reluctant to upset the staffs they have to work with on a day-to-day basis. So I understand that boards have been caught between a rock and a hard place, but it is unfortunately true that many of them did not write to the ministry to say which members should have had their pay deducted. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000606\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIt was even worse when the Post Primary Teachers Association started to use the rostering-off system, where they said, for example, that on a certain day teachers would not teach third-formers. That meant that boards of trustees had to go through the whole staff to work out which teachers\u2019 timetables for teaching third-formers on that day to take, and how many periods they took. Then they had to go off to the ministry and say: \u201CLook, you have to deduct this number of hours from this teacher, and this number from another teacher, etc.\u201D Once again, boards were very reluctant to do it, and rostering-off was a very powerful industrial tool. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000607\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe recognised that in 1998, and we nipped it in the bud before it even got under way. The Post Primary Teachers Association threatened it, and I put out a press release to say to parents that if they did not send their children to school under those circumstances, they were in breach of the law. Paul Holmes picked it up, and we had an interview with Martin Cooney. I did not have to do much work, because Paul Holmes did most of it for me. He did a snow job on Martin Cooney, and the very next day the association withdrew its threats of that sort of action. A day later, Martin Cooney resigned his president\u2019s position with the Post Primary Teachers Association\u2014notice of which, I think, made it probably the best press release I ever put out during my time as Associate Minister of Education. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000608\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBut Bill English was right about something\u20142002 was appalling. Industrial relations, and its ongoing effects on students in our secondary schools, were absolutely appalling. We have to look at that and ask ourselves whether we are prepared to put up with that sort of carry-on yet again. Secondary teachers must be the only group in this country who believe that they should be able to withdraw their labour and get paid at the same time. There is nothing moral, ethical, or uplifting about that sort of belief or position. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000609\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EAt an area school in the 1980s, and as Post Primary Teachers Association members, we went on strike, but we did not withdraw our labour. We continued to teach to ensure that students did not lose their day\u2019s learning. We then donated our money to the Post Primary Teachers Association. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000610\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5868489c20749999c48331525e43a86\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Did the kids notice?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000611\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220054f99305ec48a09323eca07708e153\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, they noticed. They thought it was a wonderful self-sacrifice by the teachers at the time. Nowadays, teachers want to walk out and still be paid. We were prepared to continue to work and give up our day\u2019s pay to make the point we were making at that time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000612\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233a7a2c31da84da0b73146f3183dda64\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: Did it work?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000613\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b903a68792be4e509e8dc3421071bd1b\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: Stan Rodger was putting through the State Sector Act at that time\u2014I think that was the issue\u2014and no, it did not work. The Act still went through, so that was a waste of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000614\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENevertheless, I say to the Minister that this bill is reactive. Certainly the Government\u2019s performance in handling the round the last time did not bring it great honour, and it must be done far better this time. The legislation is reactive in terms of the specifics of how the Government can deal with the next pay round, but in this particular case it does not overcome the systemic flaws in the adversarial industrial arrangement between the Government and teachers. There is a unique, quite idiosyncratic relationship there. The industrial relations arrangement is simply inadequate in terms of being able to handle things, and it certainly leads to a continuation of angst and unhappiness. We cannot have a constructive teaching force that is continuously in that state of low morale. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000615\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First will vote for this bill. We believe that in the best interests of the education system we have to have it. We cannot have an environment like the one that existed in 2002 going on into the 2004 round\u2014simply for the well-being of education. The days lost from the education of those students will never be made up. They cannot be\u2014they are lost opportunities to the nation. New Zealand First believes that we need to look at the whole industrial model around which we negotiate teachers\u2019 salaries, compared with the one we have at the moment. I do not think that anybody can consider that that model has worked well in the past. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWe believe that the actions taken by certain teachers\u2014not necessarily endorsed by the Post Primary Teachers Association\u2014who withdrew their labour and still expected to be paid, were absolutely unethical and immoral. I am surprised that the National Party is supporting that form of unethical, immoral behaviour by some of our teaching staff. Therefore, we will support the Government in this part of the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000617\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI want to talk about one other aspect of the bill\u2014the closure of schools. An important point is being made in this case, but I want to refer to the fact that this Government is hell-bent on closing schools whether they want to be closed or not.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000618\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E We have a situation up in Northland where a school wants to be closed and the ministry will not close it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000619\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e3e7339c38d441648175ce138910539b\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Which one?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000620\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b82b04a3f8c44ac6abaca3389303d091\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: It is Taipuha. Having had extensive consultation with its community\u2014it is down to seven kids\u2014the school wrote on 3 or 4 August and said it wanted to be closed. About 2 months later, the ministry comes along and says it has to go through a process. The school wants to make sure that it is closed in time to get its kids into a new school for next year, but no, this Minister will not do that. He is too busy out there closing the schools that do not want to be closed, and this is a school that wants to be closed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000621\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EI have to point out to the Minister that he really needs to sort out his ministry\u2019s act, and that of some of the people in it. If that closure is not gazetted 28 days before the opening of schools for next year, those students will be left in a helluva mess. They will have to stay at the school they were at, with no transport arrangements. It will cost the taxpayers additional money, because the teachers\u2019 salaries will still have to be paid, even though they want to move on into the next part of the thing. So I say to the Minister that he had better sort out that part of the ministry\u2019s act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000622\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EIn terms of this particular legislation, however, what is in there is sensible. With the merging of schools, a number of small schools coulld merge into one and the principals of each of those schools might not have the requisite educational leadership or administrative skills to be able to professionally lead the larger institution that is formed. Under existing legislation, one of those principals has to get the job. Under this legislation, where a large school and a small school merge, and the principal of the larger school does not want the job, the principal of the smaller school\u2014who might not have the experience to carry that job\u2014does not get it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000623\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe educational leadership role of principals in schools is so critical and important that it is wise\u2014and New Zealand First agrees with the Government on this one\u2014that that position be advertised when we have these school reorganisations. New Zealand First agrees with the decisions that have been made by the Government in this particular case, and we will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022 data-id=\u00227914dfa2a0da40de828c556135221c56\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000624\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227914dfa2a0da40de828c556135221c56\u0022\u003ENANDOR TANCZOS (Green):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak on the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3) on behalf of the Green Party, and to inform the House that the Greens will be supporting this bill to the select committee. We have made no commitment to support the bill further than that, but we think it should go to the select committee so that we can hear the submissions and work through the numerous issues in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000625\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe think there is some merit in the bill, particularly from the point of view of school boards, and Brian Donnelly has already canvassed some of those points. It is clear that school boards are increasingly responsible for the administrative management of schools. Those functions take precious hours from committed volunteers\u2014hours that would otherwise be devoted to the educational needs of the schools and the children who attend them. Recent changes in the provision of school housing, for example, have put a significantly greater administrative burden on schools, while putting school boards in an additional power relationship with their employees\u2014that is, the teachers they work with. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt is important that members in this House remember that boards of trustees are volunteers from the community. Some of them have management responsibilities in their jobs and day-to-day lives, but if a board is to be truly representative of its community, many of those trustees will be ordinary mums and dads. Many of them will never have had to bear the responsibilities peculiar to the role of an employer, and it can take a real toll on the individuals put into those positions. People put themselves forward for those roles because they are committed to their school and to the best educational outcomes for their children, and they have to deal with significant and serious management issues in the role they have taken on. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000627\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens have a great deal of sympathy for school trustees, and for the boards that did not dock teachers\u2019 pay during past industrial disputes, because they had a genuine and legitimate desire to maintain good relations with their staff. We think it is a significant obligation to place on boards, especially if they are supporting the teachers during an industrial dispute. Those disputes, of course, are not between teachers and the school, but between teachers and the Government, and boards have had to deal with being in the middle of those disputes. Schools and boards bear the effects of the disputes, but they have no role in managing them through to a satisfactory and expeditious conclusion. We think there is real merit in removing the obligations on boards to dock pay. It would be helpful to school trustees and to the boards, because they would not have to take up that responsibility and face the conflict that then develops in their relationship with their teachers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000628\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EIt is also true that teachers who strike should expect to have their pay docked, which is one of the trade-offs of industrial action. No one wants to have his or her pay docked under any circumstances, of course. It is a hard world and people struggle, and teaching is not exactly an overpaid profession. But in industrial disputes it is one of the costs recognised by unions and unionised workers. The fact is that the pay will be docked within the current process for industrial disputes. Whether it is done by the board or by the ministry, this bill does not alter that basic fact. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000629\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens also agree with the position of the Post Primary Teachers Association on many issues, and in particular that this seems especially punitive and unnecessary legislation on the part of the Minister. We think the Minister could be concentrating on lots of other more useful things in the education portfolio than simply reorganising who takes the money off the teachers. The education system remains under-resourced, and we draw particular attention to the area of special needs. The devotion of ministerial resources to that and other educational areas should be a greater priority, notwithstanding that some aspects of this bill have merit. We think the Minister could have been spending his time on more constructive things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000630\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EWe have a number of particular problems with the bill. One of them is around the new powers of the commissioner. We completely disagree with the power the commissioner will have to fine boards that do not provide information about which of their teachers are on strike. That provision is disgraceful. It takes money out of the school budget for an administrative purpose that is not related to the provision of quality education to our children. That punitive action against schools is completely inappropriate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000631\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EAs I have already foreshadowed, we are voting the bill to the select committee. We expect to see some amendments made there, and we have made no commitment beyond that. Some members say the Greens should be voting against the bill, but I do not see that as a reasonable position to take. A more constructive position would be to support the bill to select committee and then seek amendments on the areas we disagree with. I note that Mr Rodney Hide said that the best reason for opposing the bill was because it was put up by Mr Mallard. I realise it is the end of the year and people are getting scratchy, but that is exactly the kind of thing that makes the public of this country look at this House and ask what we are doing. Let us engage with the issues. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000632\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285712e72-b25f-4850-b4d9-90035064fde3\u0022\u003EThe Greens look forward to hearing the various views on this bill at the select committee stage. We hope to hear rigorous submissions\u2014particularly from school trustees\u2014so we can get a very clear picture of what this legislation will mean for them in practice, and amendments can be made accordingly. The Greens will be supporting this bill at the first reading.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f484c837d9f2414b8e7aa9ca38124109\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000633\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f484c837d9f2414b8e7aa9ca38124109\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I am not surprised that voters keep coming up to Nandor Tanczos to ask him what he is doing here. He started his speech by saying that the Greens are going to support this bill, and that they have made a commitment to support it all the way. That is what Hansard will record him as saying. Then he went through his speech and convinced me that this bill is bad. He went all the way through his speech saying how bad the bill was, then said he was going to support it, having convinced me that it is bad.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000634\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI must also admit that I look at every bill Trevor Mallard introduces into this House and think: \u201CThis will be a bad bill.\u201D He has never disappointed me yet. I am amazed as I go around the schools of New Zealand to hear teachers say: \u201CWe didn\u2019t like him when he was a teacher, and he is worse, now that he is a Minister.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000635\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f82a5618f63d42e690aae1badf4b9fd4\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Which schools? Name one.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000636\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227418fc8ba1904de084637d77ce7e45ae\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Do not deny it. Can anyone find a teacher who likes Trevor Mallard? I cannot. Everywhere I go they say: \u201CHe was not a very nice man when he was a teacher, and he has not improved in the Labour Party.\u201D, which I can understand. When one looks across at the Labour caucus, one sees that it is not something to make one feel bright, cheery, and optimistic about the human condition.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000637\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut let us go back to Trevor Mallard. I say to Mr English that this is what we might call a bully-boy bill, from a man who was going to fix the rugby union with a bottle in the right place. This is his approach to public policy: the teachers go on strike; where is that bottle? Well, he is not allowed to say that in front of Helen Clark, so he comes down to the House with a bill that says: \u201COh, the person who I tell what to do can stop the pay of the teachers if I want it to be stopped.\u201D That is what this bill says. [Interruption] I say to Mr Donnelly that, yes, it does. If they go on strike their pay will be stopped. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000638\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224b084b255042441abe74a0b192f2908a\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Only if they go on strike.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000639\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ed318bdb96574ccfaa1cf2e3ad28db53\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: That is true. But there is another option.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000640\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bc071a8188e745e58f9468536a3b2b00\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Getting as bad as Nandor.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000641\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285ef1b21ca9f4d8d94ba14aab6cbf5d2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: If you shared the haircut, you would look all right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000642\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220109259c320e4ea9b6d17983af23dff6\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know what is in that tie, but I am feeling a bit woozy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000643\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat do we have boards of trustees for? To run the schools. We have a misalignment here of the decision to run the school and the pay, and the decision about whether teachers\u2019 pay can be stopped if they go on strike. We have two options here. As Mr English pointed out, one is to shift more power to the centre, to the Government, which is the Trevor Mallard option\u2014\u201CI know best; let me have the power with the State Services Commissioner\u201D\u2014versus the option of giving more power, authority, and control to the boards.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000644\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201fd1b35a6a64c08ab453e59889fd407\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Bulk funding.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000645\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225245a0d10a7e42a382f55590fa2050af\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000646\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f94e16d14d04414d85a2e8d846e9978f\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: They would deduct it if it was bulk funded.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000647\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b8d61a6e674d968064df3b77012a56\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: They would not need this bill. So why do we not put the money across to the board of trustees and have the board pay the teachers? Then the board would have the authority to stop the pay. Is that not what we expect a board of trustees to do?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000648\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EWhat we have is this mad situation where we pretend that the board is running the school\u2014but the Government is paying all the salaries. Then, if teachers go on strike, Trevor Mallard has to ring the State Services Commissioner to stop the poor teachers\u2019 pay. In fact, the teachers are not in dispute with the board that employs them but with the Government that does not employ them. That is the madness of this bill. So why do we not come to the logical conclusion, and say: \u201CIf the board is going to employ the teachers, why not give them the money to pay this?\u201D. Would that not solve it? But Trevor Mallard would hate that. The thing a bully boy wants all the time is the bottle. He wants the bottle. He wants to have the power. He has to have the big hammer to throw around.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000649\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222571b0af83984f7daba57806677c6d8f\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: He wants to be the king of the Heinekens.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000650\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222acbe4270bfc4d1cad21de28cc8c8993\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: He wants to be the king of the Heinekens in order to be the bully boy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000651\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EOf course, if we did the logical thing and started trusting New Zealanders, started trusting parents, started trusting boards of trustees\u2014indeed, let us be perfectly frank, started trusting teachers\u2014we would devolve the payment of teachers to the board. We would allow the board to run a school, and we would not have this legislation handed down. Imagine what would happen in New Zealand. We would have some responsibility and accountability.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000652\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223066b7b4b93f4c7592110fb55108f4fd\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: This is the speech I want to send to the PPTA.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000653\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e39cdff6849420294b25fa9e263fe6c\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I would love Trevor Mallard to give this speech to the Post Primary Teachers Association. If he gave that speech, then came to the House with this legislation, he would have National Party support. He would have the New Zealand First Party\u2019s support, I think\u2014no?\u2014he would have the ACT party\u2019s support, and, depending on what tie Nandor Tanczos was wearing, he might get Green Party support.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000654\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eb23cad279e4c07a1b0c1586211b0cc\u0022\u003EOpposition Member \u003C/span\u003E: What about United Future?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000655\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0d2580bc60043e8bf5e84fdf1597dd9\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: United Future would vote for it. Of course, we still have not heard from Craig McNair. Craig McNair should speak. He has just left school and he can tell us what it is really like. I am surprised Darren Hughes is not here, because he has just left school.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000656\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201115e7a80464c6ebff63ff02d20754d\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: What do you mean? He\u2019s on his school holidays.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000657\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220f369180e4a64bd0b9d3c3dbdae73e00\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: At 9 o\u2019clock he is at home, in bed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000658\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EBut why does this Minister not trust boards of trustees with the responsibility to pay teachers? Why will he not trust boards of trustees with the responsibility to run schools? Why will he not trust parents to look after, in their communities, the best interests of their children? Why will this Minister not allow some freedom and responsibility, some diversity and choice? Why is it that at every opportunity Trevor Mallard comes to this House and says: \u201CGive me more power. Give me more control. Let me walk around as the king of the schools.\u201D? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000659\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EI think it is revenge time for this Minister. I think there are some old headmasters, from the days when he was a schoolteacher, whom he has to settle a score with. He has got out the Heineken bottle, or something, because he wants the power.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000660\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHere is a question for Mr English. I ask him whether he can remember a Minister of Education who was more disliked.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000661\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229a63d8939027482fad4cbf0e9a87a0f7\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000662\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022baef867b83834c65b5c6194ec1c754c0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Never\u2014and in the shortest time possible.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000663\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022660ac2e2401140209a02674375e0362f\u0022\u003EHon Bill English\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s more disliked that the Hon Merv Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000664\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caa560bf7f464f3b92007b80f538d387\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I can hardly remember Merv Wellington. He is more disliked than the Hon Merv Wellington.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000665\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00226984d661-9f65-4ed6-b29c-3285b598582d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2c86122183d41789fa6de6101686ac8\u0022\u003EJohn Carter\u003C/span\u003E: He\u2019s dead.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000666\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002290a3afc6f1bf401f9ada71d4fd40379f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Oh, I never had the pleasure of meeting him. But this Minister of Education, in the short time he has been Minister, has managed to alienate more schools, more boards of trustees, and more teachers than any other Minister of Education I have witnessed. I am staggered that he is coming down to this House with a bill to give Michael Wintringham the power to stop teachers\u2019 pay. What the hang has that got to do with Michael Wintringham? What does a school\u2019s management have to do with him? I cannot figure that out. The Minister never explained it. He walked into this House and mumbled something about: \u201CThe teachers really annoyed me last time because they went on strike, and the boards seemed to like them, and I had to keep paying, and that gives teachers too much power. I want the State Services Commissioner to have the opportunity to cut their pay if they go on strike.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000667\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHow many times does it have to be said? It could be fixed simply by saying that we have boards of trustees. They run the schools. We should give them the money to pay the teachers. If the teachers go on strike it is against the board, is it not? It is not against the State Services Commissioner, for goodness\u2019 sake. Let the boards sort it out. That is what happens in the good schools in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u0022deee78d5248d46d09f550c8c1154307a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000668\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022deee78d5248d46d09f550c8c1154307a\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E United Future will support the first reading of the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3). We do not think it is fair to put boards of trustees in the kinds of difficulties in which they found themselves during the last negotiating round for the secondary school teachers\u2019 contract, particularly when it continued for such a protracted period of time. As we know, it was up to each board to decide whether to dock the pay of each teacher taking industrial action. But many boards were very sympathetic towards teachers\u2019 claims, especially since the boards included representatives of teaching staff and students, as well as principals. In cases where the board did decide to dock pay that often created tension within the board, and between the board and the staff, and had the potential to continue to impinge on other spheres of school life. There was a lot of inconsistency across schools about whether their teachers were facing any financial consequences for their actions, and that created inequity amongst teachers as to who was getting paid and who was not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000669\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThis bill, I believe, tidies up yet another inequity. Although teachers have the same ability as other employees to take industrial action, they do not face the same consequences if there is no guarantee they will face the same kinds of sanctions as other employees. I think that this bill attempts to take boards of trustees out of the equation by transferring their employer functions to the State Services Commission. However, it relies on boards informing the State Services Commission, and some of the feedback from boards since this bill was introduced suggests that their sympathy with the teachers might extend to sending false returns about how many staff are actually teaching. The select committee will need to look at how that is going to work in practice, and it would be very useful to listen to the School Trustees Association about the feasibility of such requirements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000670\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EOn another matter, and it has been raised, I bring the attention of the House to clause 5, which relates to redundancy resulting from school mergers and/or closures\u2014a very topical issue at the moment. Although each board is still a separate employer, in the case of a merger or closure an employee may be offered a similar position by another board in the same locality, but without the need for the board to comply with the provisions of the Act that require employers to advertise vacancies and give preference to persons who best suit that position. I am very sympathetic to teachers, and indeed communities, who face the prospects of school closures or mergers, but I believe that schools recruiting teachers should have the merit of the applicants uppermost in their minds. I, too, invite the select committee to investigate the issue of selecting teachers on merit, rather than just by region, in its consideration of the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5fc60eb14de44769343e514f6041641\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000671\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221fb8d8db-3e96-49c7-ab1c-b7916a50e30e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5fc60eb14de44769343e514f6041641\u0022\u003ESTEVE CHADWICK (Labour\u2014Rotorua):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to support the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3). It corrects an anomaly that can arise out of the mergers of schools and the treatment of employees by boards of trustees, so I am pleased to support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00229cc898efc8ae4b0db8f70c5f5387cc64\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000672\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229cc898efc8ae4b0db8f70c5f5387cc64\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I am pleased about Steve Chadwick\u2019s speech, as there were a couple of things I did not understand in this bill and she has clarified them. This is not really a bill as such; it is more a document that confirms a divorce. It confirms that the cosy relationship between Trevor Mallard and the Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA) has finally come to an end. This Minister\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000673\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d01e7cb02cca474e87c9d2ec2a2744d7\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: A former regional secretary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000674\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e07476d4f12c45288f258a8b5bf38adb\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: That is right. This Minister was widely reported, prior to 1999, as being the darling of the teachers unions. He was going to be the Minister who would make everything all right and chase away the allegedly bad policies of the 1990s. Teachers today are being asked to sign the divorce papers between Trevor Mallard and the PPTA; the marriage of convenience is over. It went through a rocky patch in 2002 during the National Certificate of Educational Achievement strikes, but what this bill is really doing is allowing the Minister, by way of legislation, essentially to put the boot into his ex-partner. Essentially, this legislation will say to the PPTA that the honeymoon is over and the Minister is coming after it. It has taken a while for the Minister to show his colours on this issue, but that is, as Bill English has said, absolutely black and white. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000675\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EBefore we get into the detail of the bill, I just say that the contribution by Bernie Ogilvy was just extraordinary. It was extraordinary that Bernie Ogilvy said United Future was going to support this bill. If I heard Marc Alexander from that same party correctly, he said in this House once that the party is anti-bureaucracy and anti-limits\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000676\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c64f208e27214fb19bf7dc14f7a5e58d\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: We are extraordinary.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000677\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d76d4bbce54945d0b18f0e2112cd2bdd\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: The member says that United Future is supporting it. How can a party be anti-bureaucracy and vote for a bill that recentralises power to a Government department\u2014to a Government commissioner? That makes no sense, at all. But, worse than that, Mr Ogilvy\u2019s colleague Murray Smith is running around the school review meetings, standing on the platform, and saying things like he has no respect for Trevor Mallard and the way he is dealing with the school review closures. Murray Smith has said he does not want to be associated with what is going on in the Government\u2019s education policy. Yet now, when we come down to the House and members on the Opposition side are thinking Murray Smith has put a line in the sand on behalf of United Future, by saying he does not want to be associated with Trevor Mallard and has no respect for his education agenda, Bernie Ogilvy gets up and says that United Future will be voting for the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000678\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d21515bb-0193-4167-a21d-982058b53604\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7a8677475bc4759988c14bf598ff605\u0022\u003ERichard Worth\u003C/span\u003E: I can\u2019t believe it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000679\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2ac9e8a99b644f9a455147b253976ed\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I say to Mr Ogilvy that that is extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000680\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI give Bernie Ogilvy this promise: at the next election, I look forward to the United Future candidate standing on the platform in Rangitikei next to me, and explaining United Future\u2019s education policy to the assembled masses. Government members should hope he takes their side, and not Murray Smith\u2019s side. The population is confused about United Future\u2019s view on this bill. I say to Mr Ogilvy that it is not too late. When the vote is taken he can change his mind, show some consistency, and, for goodness\u2019 sake, back Murray Smith. He should not leave him out there dangling\u2014[Interruption] Jill Pettis fires up again. There she goes again\u2014the seagull caught in the clothesline. Jill Pettis is away again. I just say that I was at Kapuni School last week, talking about its school review. When I asked what Jill Pettis was doing to represent the school\u2019s interests to the Minister of Education with regard to the south Egmont review, people asked what I meant.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000681\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e66fa619de9146d386f38b638e7851d1\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: More than that member has ever done in Taihape.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000682\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225fa4f1022dc3487a989c3cc7c3bee7b0\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Trevor Mallard should hang on, because he will be interested in this. I asked what Jill Pettis had said when she had gone to the school. I was asked what I meant. I asked again what Jill Pettis had said when she had gone to Kapuni School to discuss the review. The people there said she had never been there to discuss the review. I said that could not be right, because although I did not agree with all Jill Pettis\u2019 politics, she was pretty industrious. But, no, they said she had never been there. They said they thought she had driven through Kapuni in a car once, but that she had never been to the school. I thought that was just extraordinary. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000683\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThis bill is interesting, because it comes at a time in the political cycle when, in the second term of this Labour Government, it is beginning to reflect some of the things that are going on in the second term of the Labour Government in the UK. The second term is when Labour starts to knock around its traditional supporters. We are seeing that with Tony Blair. If I were a traditional Labour Party supporter, and if I were one of the Government members who owes his or her place in the caucus to the PPTA, I would be looking at the situations vacant column about now. The PPTA will not back any of the teachers union - backed members of Parliament sitting on the Government benches when the next election rolls around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000684\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E Rodney Hide was right on the button when he said we do not need legislation that recentralises bureaucratic control into the hands of the State Services Commissioner. What boards need is a whole lot of freedom and flexibility to be able to do whatever they need to do in order to ensure the one thing that is missing from this bill\u2014the one thing that is not mentioned in it\u2014which is the quality of the education that is provided to the students in schools. There is not one mention of the educational standards that would be met by implementing this legislation\u2014not one mention of what it means for school kids, students, and pupils throughout New Zealand. That is disappointing, because that does make this a vengeful piece of legislation. It is a piece of legislation whereby Trevor Mallard is now saying to the Post Primary Teachers Association that time is up, that he does not need its support any more, and that next time the Government will deal with it through the State Services Commission with regard to rectifying industrial disputes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000685\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWhen I had a quick look through the bill one of the interesting things I saw was that the purposes of the bill seemed to me to be all over the show. A bit of a mishmash of reasons has been put together in this legislation. Clause 3(a) enables the State Services Commissioner to negotiate collective agreements. Clause 3(b) requires the unions representing the board to give prior notice of a proposed strike, and clause 3(c) requires the boards to report to the State Services Commissioner. Well, that is just what volunteers, parents, and members of communities with big hearts need, when they go on school boards: more reporting requirements! What we would like to see in legislation are provisions that would allow communities and school trustees to get on with the business of providing a quality education to the students and pupils of their schools, rather than requiring them to fill out more forms when dealing with the State Services Commissioner, and having to answer to another Government agency in the form of the State Services Commissioner. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000686\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThen the purpose clause goes on to preclude compensation for technical redundancies around the school reviews. Much of that territory has been covered by Brian Donnelly, but I will just say this: during the school review process we should concentrate on modelling and copying schools that are doing well\u2014schools that are succeeding. It is a real problem when schools are not succeeding, and that is the type of difficulty that this legislation should address. When the Hon Bill English led off the debate for the National Party, he made that point very clearly when he said that we would be opposing the bill for those reasons. I tell Bernie Ogilvy to talk to Murray Smith. Murray Smith does not want to vote for this bill, and that member should have checked with him before he pledged United Future\u2019s support to push this bill on towards a select committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022e726b1c95be74a38b059c6ade78c7e18\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000687\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e726b1c95be74a38b059c6ade78c7e18\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E I have nothing to say to the representative of the 26 or 23 percent party. We have heard a speech of absolute opportunism. I support this bill. I wish it full speed to the select committee. It is a good, fair, and consistent bill. I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00227ed5cf7ac534427aa04ed53ca316d05f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000688\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227ed5cf7ac534427aa04ed53ca316d05f\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E If I was to stand before this House tonight and tell members that this bill is a complete and utter disgrace, and that the Minister should be ashamed of it, members would not be surprised that that was coming from the National Party. But I could be speaking on behalf of the Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA), because the PPTA also finds this bill a disgrace. What is more, it has read the Labour Party manifesto. It has read the bits about partnership. The words that one sees in the Labour Party manifesto are about partnership, and working hand-in-hand with the community. But this Government is not in such a partnership. This Government reeks of arrogance; it bathes in it. The Government is telling the PPTA that because it does not like what the association is doing\u2014standing up for its people\u2014it will change the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000689\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe last Labour Minister whom we saw come into this House with such an arrogant view was the Hon Dr Michael Cullen. He came into this House and said: \u201CWe won. You lost. Eat that!\u201D. That went down like a cup of cold sick with the public of New Zealand, in just the same way that this legislation will go down. The Minister of Education, the Hon Trevor Mallard, is now coming to this House and saying: \u201CYou won. I lost. Beat this!\u201D. That is what he is doing. In this bill, called the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3), he is changing the rules of the game because he cannot beat the PPTA. The PPTA had a very valid argument, indeed. It had the argument that teachers are underpaid in this country. Good teachers are not being paid what they deserve, and we know that they deserve a great deal more. This is just a classic example of what we have seen from the Labour Government since it has been in power, which is a continuation and an expansion of the nanny State. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000690\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe can see the nanny State wherever we look. We have seen it in the health sector, with primary health organisations being rolled out all over the place to give free health-care, whether that is to millionaires or to people who really need it. We have seen it in accident compensation, where we had a perfectly operating private sector. But this Government came in and said that no, the private sector might be doing very well, might know how accident compensation works best, and might be able to deliver results for New Zealanders that were proven to work, but Labour would still nationalise it. We have seen it in the area of superannuation, with the \u201CCullen fund\u201D. Labour does not trust New Zealanders. The Labour Government\u2019s message is that it does not trust New Zealanders to save for and invest in their own retirement, so it is delivering the wholesale \u201CCullen fund\u201D and sending 85 percent of it off shore, so we do not even invest in our own country\u2014in our own people and the very businesses that drive economic growth in this country. That is what Labour is doing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000691\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EHere, lo and behold, exactly the same principles are to operate in education. I am very surprised at that, because today the OECD released a 159-page report that told the people of New Zealand the policies of the current Labour Government are failing. They are failing in all sorts of areas, and education is one of them. So when I see this bill, I can tell members that I know it is a very sad day, indeed. The Government cannot win the argument, cannot believe in the boards of trustees and the people who are engaged in delivering education in our society, and thinks it does not have the competency, the skills, or the ability to win the argument. So the Government has got the sledgehammer out and, in a very arrogant way, has delivered legislation that it thinks is the king hit. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000692\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI would suggest that if Trevor Mallard has the guts to front up at the PPTA annual general meeting next year, he will find a very different president from the one who probably welcomed him in 1999. This president has stated in his own annual report: \u201CIt is time to find another Minister to take education forward.\u201D When someone\u2019s own people have turned on a person, that person knows he or she is in the schtuck. One knows one is in serious trouble when one\u2019s own people turn on one. That is the sort of reception that will await this Minister of Education when he fronts up\u2014that is, presuming he does front up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000693\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f1f79be71dc8456a8cbced42d03bc4a9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: The member is making it up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000694\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a3a3ec5ac7de4310b26bbceab161c335\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: The member is not making it up. The member is reading an accurate statement, which he is happy to present to the House at any particular time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000695\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIf this Government was more positive, the people of New Zealand would have a brighter hope. But yesterday in the House we had members argue that New Zealand could not deliver economic growth, could not deliver productivity growth, and could not deliver higher wages, so the best we could do for people was to give them a 4-week holiday. That was said to be the best we could do. Now we have a Minister of Education who says that school boards of trustees are not capable of engaging in an employee-employer relationship, and are not capable of being with the people that they know best and delivering the results, in terms of the best education for our own children. So the Minister says the Government will empower the State Service Commission to do the dirty work\u2014do the hard work\u2014for the Government. That is what will happen under this legislation. I say to the Minister of Education that this is a disappointing day for the people of New Zealand. If he had a more positive view, and if he was prepared to engage with the boards of trustees and give them more power, as opposed to taking power away from them, he might have found that they reacted in a very, very different way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000696\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWe know that this is just the start of things to come from the Labour Government. When Labour came into this House in 1999 as the Government, it told us that it would raise taxes in only one area: the top personal taxation rate. The Government cruelly raised that rate from 33c in the dollar to 39c in the dollar as a pure envy tax, because it did not need the fiscal revenue from that to deliver its programme. What the Labour Government did then is no different from what it is to deliver under this bill. This bill is just the start of what is to come. Mark my words, since the Labour Government has been in power we have had 19 increases in levies or income tax. New Zealanders are getting taxed to death under this Labour Government. We will see just the start of that in the education sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000697\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EToday we see the boards of trustees being robbed of their most crucial relationship with their employees. We will see that situation continuing into the future. This Minister will use the powers he has for whatever he can legislate to go forward. When the people of New Zealand take the time to look at this bill they will reflect on the words of Mr Simon Power, the outstanding member for Rangitikei, who said that Trevor Mallard was in divorce proceedings with the PPTA. Simon Power was quite right when he said that. It is an irreconcilable divorce, and one that will end up, as so many divorces sadly do, in tears. This is a sad day for education in this country. National will oppose this bill, and rightly so.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u0022a93253aca852466da797c6bdb50ea370\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000698\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a93253aca852466da797c6bdb50ea370\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment): \u003C/span\u003EUnlike the personal comments that have dotted some of the Opposition\u2019s comments on this bill, I rise to support my colleague, whom I regard as an excellent Minister of Education. He is a Minister who has made a really positive difference to literacy and numeracy in the early years, as all the testing will show members, and therefore I support this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022e6547c0181ae4c9aa89bf37c714d88d8\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3) be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022f66520f3c5f640ac99dae1e2fd5a7b23\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000699\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f66520f3c5f640ac99dae1e2fd5a7b23\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of State Services):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the State Sector Amendment Bill (No 3) be considered by the Education and Science Committee, and that the committee report the bill finally to the House by 19 March 2004.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00220b2906f5c66d42af9b76d31abbd62391\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the motion be agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 82\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; United Future 8.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 35\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EMotion agreed to.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000700\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a24fcb7bfb4c4e07a5d58c7bd6c50b14\u0022\u003EEducation (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000701\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a2e6bbaefc0e472f985436f01af80dbb\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u0022b8a25c3d5c3b4726ad6c30969548b3ed\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022b8a25c3d5c3b4726ad6c30969548b3ed\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Education (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a first time. At the end of this debate, I will move that the bill be referred to the Education and Science Committee. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000703\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EThe Government has sponsored this bill to maintain the growth of the export education industry, infuse stability, and guarantee a principled approach to the education of international students. The bill ensures that immediate financial relief can be provided directly from the levy fund to assist students affected by provider collapse. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000704\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003EAs recent cases have illustrated, swift action is essential to support students who face loss, insecurity, and indecision. This bill sends a clear message that international students who come to New Zealand can have confidence that in the unfortunate event of a provider failure they will be looked after. The Government\u2014and, I am sure, all sector providers in this most important industry\u2014hopes that in future there will not be any need to use this proposed legislation on the money that comes from it. The message that sends about stability, and the support that we have around the House, is very important to our international relationships. I ask members opposite to think of that and be slightly careful as they debate the issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022 data-id=\u00220b89b5f1acd14b67bdaa55b9a4167ded\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000705\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220b89b5f1acd14b67bdaa55b9a4167ded\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH (National\u2014Clutha-Southland):\u003C/span\u003E That is a bit rich coming from this Minister, that it is now our responsibility to maintain the credibility of international education, when he has been the Minister in charge of it for 4 years! This bill is a signal of his failure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000706\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EGoing back to the early 1990s, measures have been taken by Governments to maintain the credibility of the export education sector. A big question that the House has to answer tonight when considering this bill is why it is that Government agencies have failed to do the job they are charged to do by statutes passed by this House? This bill is about levying providers retrospectively to pay for the failure of the New Zealand Qualifications Authority. That is what it is about. Let us just clarify the retrospectivity of it. Clause 4(3) states: \u201CIf, before subsections (1A) to (1C) came into force, the agency responsible for the administration of the levy has made any payment that could have been made, or for which it could have been reimbursed, from the funds of the levy had it been in force at the time the payment was made, the funds of the levy may, with the approval of the Minister, be used to reimburse the agency for that payment.\u201D So it is retrospective. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000707\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Government has already spent the money it will levy with this bill\u2014a bill that will not be passed for some time. The money has already been spent, yet the Minister has the gall to get up and say: \u201CI hope no institution collapses so we\u2019ll never have to use the money.\u201D But he will collect it, anyway. So it could be that the money is spent before the law passes, and after the law passes the Government does not need to spend any more money. It could be a total waste of time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000708\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ELet us just get into the detail. This bill has been a reaction to some sensitivities from foreign governments about export education, not just in this country, as the Minister pointed out, but in a number of countries. We are not the only country that has been asked for a list of approved providers. In fact, Australia, Canada, and the UK have been asked, not just New Zealand. It is not a feature of our market alone, or of the people the Minister hates\u2014that is, the private providers, whom he cannot stand the sight or stench of. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000709\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWe are not being picked on. This is a reaction to the Modern Age Institute collapse and the Carich collapse. I thought to myself, being new to the job, that since those institutions have collapsed and left the students high and dry, it must be that they were never checked up on\u2014and that would be terrible. I had a look, and what did I find? I found that these institutions have been checked up on, very frequently. Between October 2000 and 2003 the New Zealand Qualifications Authority conducted three quality audits of the Modern Age Institute of Learning. When we look at those institutions, we see that one of the central issues is whether the money students have paid has been put in the trust fund. The authority asked the Modern Age Institute whether it had put the money in the trust fund, and it said \u201CYes\u201D. The authority said: \u201CThank you very much. We believe you. We\u2019re off.\u201D Now the whole private training sector will pay $400,000 for that mistake. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000710\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003ECarich collapsed, and who was there right alongside Carich day by day, month by month? It was the Ministry of Education and the new and much-beloved Tertiary Education Commission. They stood right by Carich\u2019s side as it fell to the dirt and took its creditors and students with them. What were the bureaucrats doing? The Minister\u2019s own officials watched those institutions collapse, because of their incompetence, then the officials went to the Minister\u2019s office, and, on the spur of the moment, said: \u201CPass a piece legislation to cover our costs.\u201D The cost to the Government is $700,000. I would like the Minister to tell us what proportion of that money went to students? Can he confirm that $400,000 went to students and the rest went on officials\u2019 flights and accommodation? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000711\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThat is the inherent problem with this legislation. The people who pay the bill have no control over what happens. In this case, the Minister\u2019s officials mucked up. They let two institutions collapse as they watched; but they got to send the bill to the other private training providers who have no control over who comes into the industry, no control over how officials spend the money, and no control whatsoever over the vindictiveness of a Minister who wants to rub out any private provider of anything, including education to foreign students. That is why the levy is wrong. The Government agencies should be able to monitor the sector, as they have been required to in the past. Why have they not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000712\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EWhy is it that New Zealand Qualifications Authority accreditation does not mean anything to the Chinese Government? When the Chinese Government asks for a list, why can the Government not just give it a list of New Zealand Qualifications Authority accredited providers? The reason is that the Minister has no faith in the authority to do its job properly. The law does not state that the authority monitors only public institutions; it states that it monitors all tertiary educational institutions, regardless of whether they are public or private. But when the Chinese Government comes knocking, the Minister says: \u201CYou can have the list of public institutions, but we don\u2019t believe that the NZQA does a good enough job. So where it says \u2018accredited by NZQA\u2019, don\u2019t believe that.\u201D He was right. I agree with him. The New Zealand Qualifications Authority is hopeless. It is disgraceful and negligent, and the students have paid. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000713\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Minister has given the authority permission to continue being reckless and negligent. It can do what it likes; the bill gets sent to the private training providers, not the Minister. The students will get their money, and that is a good thing\u2014they should. However, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority faces no sanctions whatsoever for its failure, none at all. The Minister divides the world into two. If public providers go down the toilet he just fronts up with the cash. In the last 4 years my guess is that the Minister has put over $100 million into saving polytechnics that were going down the tubes. He has put in over $100 million in capital injections. The Northland Polytech has been under restructuring for 2 years. Why is he not levying all the other polytechs for the huge cost being run up by the polytechs\u2014for 2 years at $2,500 a day, and the restructure is no closer now than it was 12 months ago? Why does he not levy the polytechs for that failure? Of course he will not, because they are nice State institutions that deserve to get all the money they need whenever they need it. A private institution will get the levy when the public institution stuffs up. Instead of passing this legislation, the Minister should get the New Zealand Qualifications Authority into his office, sack the chief executive, sack the operational people\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000714\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220b63cff3f918424a8ac9e2d5a8cd24e2\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Is the member saying that I should sack the chief executive?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000715\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab6eed2a8f7a4b79aae527769f2e4494\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000716\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002265a62630793d4472a8e8d60000439c27\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s outrageous!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000717\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f95f871745a54a6c93cc3bb8608c5858\u0022\u003EHon BILL ENGLISH\u003C/span\u003E: The Minister should stop quacking. He usually keeps that behaviour for public meetings. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000718\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bb158206-360b-4757-8d72-f7d0994e1fb3\u0022\u003EThe Minister should sort out the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, because it sold those students down the line. It failed to do its job. The authority is a statutory body charged with monitoring those institutions, and it did not do that. That is why we will oppose this legislation. If we thought there was a comprehensive package of measures where we could rely on the State institutions to enforce the code of pastoral care and rely on the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to do the auditing and monitoring it is meant to do, then we would have an open mind. However, the Minister refuses to put pressure on the Government institutions and he is making the private ones pay the bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022 data-id=\u0022710bbcae5a7b4dd1955b57807fb92791\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000719\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00223a0e52c8-5bb1-4325-9870-21f4e3eb3702\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022710bbcae5a7b4dd1955b57807fb92791\u0022\u003EMARTIN GALLAGHER (Labour\u2014Hamilton West):\u003C/span\u003E At least that speech was given with far more passion than the current leader of the National Party could ever do. I rise to support this bill. It is very, very important. It is very important to maintain this critical industry so that students and their home Governments are assured that they will receive quality education in exchange for their very important investment. This bill is good. It is another example of this Government yet again showing excellent leadership.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022 data-id=\u00224eaa44cff90c4e509ba4586f2dba27a3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000720\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224eaa44cff90c4e509ba4586f2dba27a3\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E In John Key\u2019s speech on an earlier bill he mentioned that this Government has brought in 19 extra levies and taxes since it became the Government in 1999. After this bill is passed all the way through, there will be 20. Basically, this is a new tax. It is a tax on the inefficiency and incapability of Government agencies. The private training establishments that are performing well, doing well, and doing everything properly will pay that tax.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000721\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThis is the third shot that the Minister of Education has had at trying to get in place an export education levy, and he has not got it right once. The first time was in the Education Standards Act, if members recall. There was going to be a levy on all institutions to ensure monitoring of the code of practice for international students. We supported that; we thought that it was good, that it was well done. Then there was the other rush of blood to the head: the day before we went into deliberation on the Tertiary Education Reform Bill\u2014the legislation that was the bus passing by; it was Steve Maharey\u2019s little baby\u2014the Minister, Trevor Mallard, threw an export education levy into it. What happened with that? It went to a select committee for analysis, and every institution that came along criticised it. Was Simon Power there?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000722\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223983f271eaf2462bab4b817f3e296a6c\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: I was there.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000723\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226208308807194fb09701b66d39cf84c1\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: He was there. I have never seen legislation that everybody who came along said was inadequate, would not work, and was shonky, and they had not been consulted on it. Yet it was pushed through, on the basis that the Government would not increase the levy, would not put it up\u2014that it was a levy to do just this thing and that thing, and the Government would not put it up. Even at that particular time, we were being told what that levy would be for.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000724\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EWhat has occurred is that one or two of these private training establishments have not been monitored adequately by the State agencies. Bill English got it right: the problem is the State agencies and the lack of quality assurance systems\u2014they have fallen over. The systems that are being demanded are good systems if they are followed through\u2014for example, not just having money put in a bank to make sure there is cover, but also checking the bank account to see whether the money is actually there. Not doing that is a pretty fundamental monitoring error. As a result of that fundamental monitoring error the Ministry of Education, one way or the other, had to come up with $700,000. Part of it is administration costs and part of it is direct costs. The Minister then said we will recover it, and the way we will recover it is by banging up the export education levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000725\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f5903baa1b64fb4bfa9f7730622741b\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: Who pays?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000726\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d975bd3582224ccba967b78d2d90f2f4\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: The people who are going to pay are the people who are running private training establishments that are working well, doing things properly, setting high standards, and following the rules. Now they are going to be penalised by this Minister, because the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has not done its job properly. When we look at Carich\u2014although the circumstances are not quite the same\u2014we see it went down as a result of some of this Government\u2019s policies. Now the private training establishments that have been able to work within those pretty draconian policies, to operate well, are going to be penalised even further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000727\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThe percentage component of the levy on private training establishments\u2014not polytechs or universities, and schools have been exempted already\u2014is going to be increased from 0.45 percent to 0.7 percent. So that the people who are listening can understand the significance of this measure, I point out that the increase will apply despite the promulgation of the Education (Export Education Levy) Regulations 2003. So we are going to throw out a regulation that has been promulgated, and we will do so purely and simply to put through a piece of legislation as a stopgap measure because one of the Government agencies has not done its job properly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000728\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EBill English is saying that collecting all this money may not be necessary. But the money has already been spent and the Minister is trying to extract it back. It is one of the problems of having a Minister of Education who is also Associate Minister of Revenue\u2014a Minister who wears both those hats. In this particular case, it has led to unjust legislation. If, for example\u2014and Mr English once again made this point\u2014a polytech got itself into trouble over the very same sort of thing, would the Minister require all the other polytechs to bail it out? If Victoria University or Otago University got itself into some difficulties as a result of the export education market, would the Minister expect all the other universities to cough up extra to bail it out? The fact is that, no, the Minister would not. Unfortunately, the part of the sector that the Minister is penalising is the part that is actually achieving. These institutions are doing the very things that he wants them to do\u2014in other words, to operate soundly and to provide good-quality export education. Yet now they are going to be penalised.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000729\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003EThere is another downside to this. Who is going to end up paying this bill? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000730\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226eaee50b2c434ef5a2404d29ccf20ea4\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: The students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000731\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cfd281ccce1c4e04acc8a5e203698cda\u0022\u003EPansy Wong\u003C/span\u003E: The students.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000732\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222c465c3fc50641768e1ec6f26b40edd7\u0022\u003EHon BRIAN DONNELLY\u003C/span\u003E: It will be the students. I have to say to Mr Mallard that there is a real drop-off in the number of students who are coming here\u2014in fact, by two-thirds. Members should consider this: the New Zealand dollar is making export education even more expensive for overseas students. Now it is going to get worse. So what will happen? The Minister takes whole departments over to China to try to promulgate export education here. Can anyone explain to me why he took the chief executive officer of the Education Review Office over to China to say how good our English-language teaching is? That did not make any sense to me. Nevertheless, the Minister went over there to try to do a job, to try to fix up the mess he has created, and now he is creating even more of a mess back here in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000733\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003ESo New Zealand First\u2014I think the Minister probably has got this point\u2014is not going to support this legislation, because it is unjust, unfair, and shonky. The Minister should put his energies into making sure the New Zealand Qualification Authority gets its systems right, rather than putting through legislation that is going to penalise quality education providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022 data-id=\u00224e557b2b5278428cbf88c27aec0df88f\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000734\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224e557b2b5278428cbf88c27aec0df88f\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to oppose the first reading of the Education (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill. We opposed the export levy when it was introduced in a rush as part of the Tertiary Education Reform Bill last year, for several reasons. We believed back then that it would clearly impact on profitability and lead to subsequent fee increases, thereby reducing competitiveness, which we now see with other countries providing export education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000735\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThere were also question marks at the time as to whether the levy would achieve what it was supposed to do. The generic marketing approach, funded by the levy, was not sufficiently targeted to students for particular courses, and, at that time at least, there was no evidence of market failure in the sector in terms of marketing, quality assurance, or even pastoral care. The select committee consideration of the levy found that a significant portion of the industry was not supportive of the levy, at all. Although the Tertiary Education Reform Bill included a provision that required the Government to show there was sufficient support among industries for a levy to fund industry training organisations, as I recall, there was no similar requirement for an export education levy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000736\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003ESo we come to this bill tonight, which takes the levy and increases the amount, but for one class of providers only\u2014that is, the private training establishments. This has arisen, as we know, from the collapse of the Modern Age Institute of Learning and Carich Training Centre\u2014both private providers\u2014which saw the Government dipping into what I call the fiduciary fund to assist international students affected by those closures. As a consequence, the bill also enables the Government now to recover those costs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000737\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThe levy was intended to enhance the development, promotion, and quality assurance of the entire industry, but the uneven nature of this change to the levy undermines any attempt to create a unified sector. We all know that a State provider, such as a school or a polytechnic, would not be allowed by the Government to collapse, as we have already heard, but I have severe doubts that, in that case, the Government would seek to recover its costs from the levy fund. The industry, not the taxpayer, should be asked to bail out State providers that falter, as well. In any case, public sector institutions are able to cross-subsidise losses from Government-funded domestic student operations in a way that the private sector cannot. Of course, the point could also be made that State providers\u2014particularly schools\u2014get into export education to avoid going under because of insufficient Government funding; that is a debate, I guess, for another day.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000738\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EThis issue goes even further than the providers. Export education is, we have been told, the fourth-biggest export earner for the country, with estimated revenue of $1.8 billion. Yet we know that only one-third of the revenue from foreign fee-paying students comes from tuition fees, some of which then is passed on to the employees of the providers. The other two-thirds is pumped into the economy as a result of students spending on accommodation, food, telecommunications, recreation, and travel. The portion that goes back to the State, in the form of GST, is considerable, going up to about $250 million\u2014just for GST.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000739\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EIt is significant that the Tertiary Education Reform Bill did not include provision to differentiate the rate of the levy according to the type of provider, as the whole aim of the levy was to create a unified industry. But this bill means that law-abiding providers that are compliant with the conditions of their registration will be penalised for the mistakes of others. Perhaps the most bizarre aspect of this is that the private sector in this industry is being held accountable for the failing of a competitor or competitors. That is not exactly standard business practice in an open economy. It is the Government that controls entry to the industry, as only registered private training establishments can enrol overseas students, yet the industry is expected to pick up the tab for the Government\u2019s errors of judgment.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000740\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EI note that the Government\u2019s original discussion document from last year on the imposition of the levy recognised the competitive nature of the industry, but also included a number of areas where industry cooperation adds value. What is proposed in this bill could conceivably come under this rubric if it can be couched in a generality, such as the need to preserve the industry\u2019s reputation. But the emphasis throughout this discussion document is on national industry, cooperation across the whole sector, and providing a unified voice. Nowhere does it talk about differentiating between the private and public sectors. If anything, the message is that the different parts of the industry must pull together, yet this bill threatens to drive them even further apart.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000741\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EInterestingly, the submission of the New Zealand Vice-Chancellors Committee on the original discussion document proposed that if there was to be an export education levy, it should come from the students\u2019 student visa or permit, as this would be much more equitable, uniform, and, in fact, upfront. If this bill is going to discriminate, then it should at least waive the increase in levy for those providers that took on at no charge students who, because of those collapses, had lost their prepaid fees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000742\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EYesterday I received a timely reminder that the overall impact of those collapses on the industry seems to have been rather minor, if not negligible. Despite a spate of bad publicity, the number of foreign fee-paying students in New Zealand schools continues to rise. There are now, I am told, nearly 17,500 fee-paying students, which is 14 percent up on last year. Government figures show that the number of Asian students resident in this country also increased substantially, and I am sure that the Minister of Education\u2019s recent charm offensive in countries like China had a lot to do with this.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000743\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EBut I still suggest that this bill is perhaps not as necessary as first thought. Net of GST, the fiduciary export levy fund has to have received at least $3 million this year, even without adding the 0.45 percent levy. This fund has to be way ahead of its projections, as the number of students was not expected to increase by 14 percent. How large could this fund be when the levy is raised to 0.7 percent for the largest slice of the market providers\u2014that is, the private training establishments? So what is the need for this punitive legislation? What has happened to the export education levy fund? I notice today that even the Vice-Chancellors Committee has no idea how much has been collected for this year, 2003.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000744\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002216035845b73d4ba6aafa13c11ea90bc9\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019ll table the report in the House on Tuesday.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000745\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022065afc7b86674f8499e68f46503c1ef4\u0022\u003EBERNIE OGILVY\u003C/span\u003E: OK. Indeed, it does not know how much has been spent. Education New Zealand, as I think the funds manager is called, has really gone quiet at the moment as the bill is before us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000746\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003EUnited Future is voting against this legislation, and if it progresses to the Education and Science Committee, I would like to think that those in the industry will have a real chance to have their voices heard on this bill, including the imposition of the levy in the first place. United Future wants to see the select committee ask some hard financial questions about where the existing levy money has gone. Surely, there is at least $700,000 left over from the worldwide trips that were made this year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00228eedd1700ef447a0a20cb936e7f2b921\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000747\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00228eedd1700ef447a0a20cb936e7f2b921\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E One of the disappointing things about the last 4 to 5 weeks has been the fact that I have not been able to sit on the Education and Science Committee and have an opportunity to listen to the organisations, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and my personal favourite, the Tertiary Education Commission, when they come before that committee to discuss issues of competency, but, more particularly, to provide a check on the activity or inactivity of those organisations with regard to issues like this. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000748\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E Bill English and Brian Donnelly both hit the nail square on the head when they said to the Minister that what should be done in this situation is to get the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, the Tertiary Education Commission, and\u2014while he is at it\u2014the New Zealand Teachers Council into his office and say to those three organisations that they are all useless. Part of the problem that we are facing with this bill is the fact that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014as long suspected by this member\u2014have been so caught up in the big-picture, philosophical, architectural design in their own minds of how they want to see the education system at a tertiary level develop that they have missed doing their core business. Their core business is to ensure that the quality of the education coming out of those institutions meets a certain marker and, more particularly, that the money invested on behalf of the taxpayer in those organisations is protected, monitored, and audited to the point that taxpayers know that their money is safe. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000749\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI know\u2014because the Minister has admitted as much in question time in the House under questioning with regard to the Teachers Council\u2014that it has problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000750\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b60b07dbbbc048ffad44ca711ec59a17\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: Fewer problems than it had a couple of months ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000751\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002285addc3e4b1c45d498e21eff387ab1d1\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: Let us hope so. The fact is that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority has been hopeless. Every time the New Zealand Qualifications Authority appeared before the select committee, when I was on it for a short time, matters just went from bad to worse. In fact, Brian Donnelly, who chairs that committee, will recall that we had to haul the New Zealand Qualifications Authority back before the committee after we had looked at transcripts of descriptions of activity that they had given the committee, because it turned out that they were completely wrong. We had to recall the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to the committee, put it under the gun again, and ask the questions a second time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000752\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI say to the Minister of Education that the thing that concerns me most about all of this is that I know that Minister knows that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is not doing its job properly. So why not line the New Zealand Qualifications Authority up in his office and take to it? Mr Ogilvy says that it is the institutions that will be penalised, but that is just not right. It is the students who will be penalised when the levy comes in, because all that will happen is that the cost will be passed to the users of the institution. I know that members want students to have a quality education, but the reality is that this bill is misguided in that regard. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000753\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI would bet money that the Tertiary Education Commission is a can of worms waiting to be opened. I am envious of my colleague the Hon Bill English getting to sit on the Education and Science Committee when the Tertiary Education Commission comes before it. I am tempted to do a deal with Dr Wayne Mapp to see whether I can get on there for the day. I tell members that that organisation might have the lofty ideals clear in its mind that Steve Maharey has imparted to it, but it does not have the operational aspects of the tertiary education system locked down, at all. The Tertiary Education Commission is just another New Zealand Qualifications Authority waiting to happen when it comes to dealing with those institutions\u2014the way they are funded, the charters and profiles, and the way in which the operational matters occur. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000754\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI have said it before and I will say it again. The place leaks like a sieve, and that is a sure sign that all is not well there. I say to Trevor Mallard that if he really wants to look after international students and if it is their welfare that he is most concerned about, then he should direct the energy at the institutions that should be monitoring and auditing those providers, rather than just picking off the private providers and saying that they will carry the burden and the cost. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000755\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E We have seen it happen when regional polytechnics have not met the grade. What happened in those cases? Well, the big cheques were written, and I have to say\u2014[Interruption] I tell Ms Coddington that that is right. I have to say that when decisions in legislation are based purely on the difference between whether an institution is owned publicly or privately\u2014regardless of the quality of the education being provided, regardless of the type of management and governance structures in place, regardless of the accountability those institutions should have to the departments that should be monitoring them\u2014I would ask whether we should not apply the same standard to all institutions, including those institutions and Government departments that should be monitoring the use and expenditure of taxpayers\u2019 money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000756\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EWe on this side of the House know that it is actually the New Zealand Qualifications Authority\u2014and, I am willing to bet, the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014that should be under the gun here. Those are the institutions that have failed international students, as much as the institutions themselves that allegedly provided the education. As I said earlier, I know that the Minister of Education knows that. It seems to me that the quickest, most effective, least political way of dealing with this problem is to deal with those institutions that should be monitoring and watching these providers. I am just not convinced that the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is anything more than a bumbling group of bureaucrats who are unable to see anything past scraping through the next financial review before the Education and Science Committee. Those New Zealand\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000757\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224aecb0e1c53f4061842ee99f47ce7c46\u0022\u003EHon Trevor Mallard\u003C/span\u003E: I am sure that\u2019s not the major focus.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000758\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ab45e51058ca41d5bc005d2a913a5e86\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: I tell the Minister that it should be, because the New Zealand Qualifications Authority is the organisation that should be here, and in the gun. I say that that is where the focus of this bill should be, and that it seems to me that to punish those private institutions that are doing well will actually end up punishing the students that this Government most wishes to help. When we look at the figures and statistics, of course, it is M\u0101ori who most often take up their tertiary education through private providers, and it seems to me that it is M\u0101ori who will suffer as a result of increased costs, taxes, and levies being put on these institutions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000759\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThose costs will be passed to those students, and in that instance, it is they who will be put off entering tertiary education providers. It is they who deserve the New Zealand Qualifications Authority to be doing its job in a way they know that hard-earned money saved, or borrowed through the student loan scheme, will provide those students with an asset to improve their lot, and the lot of their families into the future. It is those organisations\u2014the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and the Tertiary Education Commission\u2014that should be in the gun here, not the institutions or the students those institutions wish to serve. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u00221ad58c19b7b74e9abe50f0e17eb50832\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000760\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221ad58c19b7b74e9abe50f0e17eb50832\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party will be opposing this amendment bill. The Minister of Education talks about export education as if we were talking about cattle being fattened for beef. He seems to forget that we are actually talking about human beings in this legislation, and the fact that people come to New Zealand because of the choice that is available. This new tax\u2014because that is what it is; it is an excuse for this Government to impose another tax on people\u2014is another tax on private providers. What did the Hon Brian Donnelly say? There have been 19 new taxes so far, and this is yet another. [Interruption] We know we are winning the argument when members opposite resort to personal attacks because they cannot even defend their own policies any more. Do members know why they cannot defend their own policies? It is because their policies are totally indefensible. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000761\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThis legislation reduces choice, and it reduces flexibility for students. As Simon Power said\u2014and he was quite right\u2014the majority of students who choose private providers are M\u0101ori and Pacific Island students, because they like the flexibility that private providers offer them. They are often young women who have left school, had babies, and want to return to the workforce, and the part-time courses in terms of night classes and 6-week classes\u2014instead of the 3-year classes that the public institutions force them to take\u2014are a lot more attractive. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000762\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ESimon Power was also absolutely right when he talked about bureaucracy building. This is another way for this Government to get more taxes to build bureaucracies. The New Zealand Qualifications Authority is expanding. He talked about the Teachers Council. The Teachers Council is known in the education sector as just a post office. It takes in the applications for teachers, it takes them out of an envelope, it puts them in another envelope, it sends them off to the police, they come back, and the council collects $10 on the way. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000763\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThere have been several changes in the head of the Teachers Council since it was set up. It is still not even coping with the work it is required to do, and the latest letter that went out to the education sector, naming the new head of the Teachers Council said, in addition, that it would continue to advertise the position on an ongoing basis. So at least the council has accepted that it cannot hold anyone there for long. The Minister should get his bureaucrats in and get them to be accountable. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000764\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EWe also see in this explanatory note of the bill that this export education is a sustainable, green export. That is just cant, total cant, and this Government knows that. It is totally pathetic. Why should the public sector not be held accountable when it fails? A hundred million dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money has been poured into polytechs to bail them out when they fail, but instead of punishing the private providers that make mistakes, this Government decides to punish everybody. That is the culture of this Government that we see all the time. If a child gets beaten to death, let us ban smacking. If one or two education institutions fail, let us tax all of them. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000765\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe Association of Private Providers of English Language put out a very good question and answer thing today, in which it addressed the issues. The association asked a very important question: \u201CDid the Minister consult?\u201D. This Minister is very proud of the fact that he consults. He sends me nice little friendly emails saying that he does front up, and he does consult. He has not learnt to find the caps key yet, but he is a slow learner, in his own words. But did the Minister consult? The Minister announced that private training establishments would pay for the refunds given to students of the Modern Age Institute of Learning on 8 September, without consulting the industry at all. He did not even go to the industry. He came out and announced it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000766\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe Modern Age Institute of Learning closed because of bad management, but there was bad management in the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, as well. The authority was not keeping a good watch on the institute. It found serious problems in September 2001 and again in February 2003, and most of the problems were still there in August 2003, but they were mainly due to lack of systems and poor implementation. Why did the bureaucrats not step in then?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000767\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id2003121097f82e9044a7441cbbf290743ab731dc000768\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 10 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"