"\u003C!DOCTYPE html\u003E\u003Chtml xmlns:xlink=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink\u0022 xmlns:xsi=\u0022http://www.w3.org/2007/XMLSchema-instance\u0022 xmlns:mml=\u0022http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML\u0022\u003E\n  \u003Chead\u003E\n    \u003CMETA http-equiv=\u0022Content-Type\u0022 content=\u0022text/html; charset=utf-16\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cmeta name=\u0022viewport\u0022 content=\u0022width=device-width, initial-scale=1\u0022\u003E\n  \u003C/head\u003E\n  \u003Cbody style=\u0022font-family:sans-serif; font-size:100%;\u0022\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000001\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022955723e7c6824e2ebd2695efebb50589\u0022\u003EThursday, 11 December 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000003\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d2efbbb8fa940d5b8a169d31e752d04\u0022\u003EThursday, 11 December 2003\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000002\u0022\u003EMr Speaker took the Chair at 2 p.m.\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000004\u0022\u003EPrayers.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000005\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002280ebbdd5e92a4e18b810bf70f9de1a4d\u0022\u003EVisitors\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000006\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022f5ddb36b86d24c52a4f385467180afcf\u0022\u003ECouncil of Ethnic Minorities, National Assembly of Vietnam\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022 data-id=\u002290e7c62818974ebc889e5b0d9a96a8ab\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000007\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002290e7c62818974ebc889e5b0d9a96a8ab\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I have much pleasure in informing the House that members of the Council of Ethnic Minorities of the National Assembly of Vietnam, led by Her Excellency Madam Nguyen Thi Nuong is present in the gallery. I am sure that members would wish that the delegation be welcomed.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000008\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u002255cd82c73bb8477b8df7040ae361e8bd\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000010\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d3559ff4bb4544c3a993d76b1612074e\u0022\u003EBusiness Statement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022d4836f99d6344fed9c25f0b76fe74557\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000009\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d4836f99d6344fed9c25f0b76fe74557\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Next Tuesday in the House priority will be given to the report of the Standing Orders Committee and the completion of the Holidays Bill. It is also the Government\u2019s intention to take the first readings of the Public Finance (State Sector Management) Bill and the Statutes Amendment Bill (No 4), as these bills are relatively non-controversial. The House will then proceed to the adjournment motion.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022 data-id=\u0022eaad1c4d7c4a47e6a8482e36d4203d39\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000011\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022eaad1c4d7c4a47e6a8482e36d4203d39\u0022\u003EGERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader\u2014National):\u003C/span\u003E I wonder whether the Leader of the House could tell us why we are not seeing seabed and foreshore legislation brought into the House while the House is sitting next week. We in the Opposition are concerned that an announcement will be made by the Government after the House has sat. I wonder, if there is an announcement that leads to legislation, to clarify the position for all New Zealanders the Leader of the House would consider bringing us back, perhaps next Thursday, for a 1-day debate on that particular decision?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022 data-id=\u0022a3a7221c2a304096be401f489e6ca9fb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000012\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a3a7221c2a304096be401f489e6ca9fb\u0022\u003EHon Dr MICHAEL CULLEN (Leader of the House):\u003C/span\u003E Perhaps Thursday week would be even more suitable, if the member would like to come back that day. As he is probably aware, the Government has given an undertaking to the Waitangi Tribunal that a bill would not be introduced before the first week in March as part of the process for the tribunal\u2019s consideration of the Government\u2019s proposals.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000013\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022490457b100e3478893e3636240b23c64\u0022\u003EPoints of Order\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000014\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002255c6f0cd441e4d80a4cfbd68d06dbb42\u0022\u003EAustralian Aviator, Mr Jon Johanson\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccdf01cc5c1844648c78d7ed610ed507\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000015\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccdf01cc5c1844648c78d7ed610ed507\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave to make a very brief plea in a motion to the House to show understanding and empathy towards the pioneering spirit of Australian aviator Mr Jon Johanson, who has been refused the sale of fuel by the New Zealand Government to enable him to continue to fly his plane on from the New Zealand base in Antarctica.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000016\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002244c4356b1eb943ad8eb2703090701fdf\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to move that motion. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022 data-id=\u0022fe1112471c76457d9d0e372d0f988886\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000017\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fe1112471c76457d9d0e372d0f988886\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is the time of Christmas, and I think that you should perhaps take some action to try to record this House\u2019s disgust at the way in which the Government is treating this matter.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000018\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d52d4a053ae4300b4a8e7fc597a1944\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be opening his Christmas presents a little early if he is not careful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000019\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b2ff5de5daca45409b4fd78d37fb985d\u0022\u003EQuestions for Oral Answer\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000020\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222468549b4a2942fa863a754463fc5d58\u0022\u003EQuestions to Ministers\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000021\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00227f1a8c490e704159a8f35162d7a32188\u0022\u003EBurrows Family\u2014Offender\u0027s Criminal Record\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226a3ea08bc51f49f898f696ce3698b50d\u0022\u003E1. MARC ALEXANDER (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Does he concede that the justice system totally failed to protect Coral Burrows from Steven Williams, in light of the fact that he was repeatedly granted bail after a criminal career of 88 convictions, and the claim by former police detective Don Finlayson that: \u201CHe should have been locked up over the last 18 months. If he had been in jail where he belonged, she would still be alive. It was an avoidable death.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u0022887903cf5f73473481010c3ca7aea010\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000023\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022887903cf5f73473481010c3ca7aea010\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Acting Minister of Justice):\u003C/span\u003E The blame for that appalling and tragic crime must be placed firmly where it belongs, which is at the feet of Steven Williams, who has now been convicted of murder. Bail is a longstanding practice in all Western justice systems. The circumstances in which there is a presumption not to grant bail were extended in 2000. However, decisions on bail in specific cases are matters for the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000024\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022723dabbef15246999c3bdc847592b38a\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that after a long history of offending Steven Williams was granted bail after committing serious drug offences, did three burglaries while on bail, was somehow granted bail again for those crimes, then threatened to kill a 16-year-old while on bail for the burglaries, and then got bail for a charge of threatening to kill, how can the Minister stand by his claim in 2000 that the Government\u2019s new Bail Act provisions would target hard-core recidivists, when the same laws failed to put Williams away, four times over?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000025\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022671ac06b4a0e4c53b23167cb0c98d58e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: My advice was that on 26 July 2003, section 12 of the new Bail Act was invoked, and there was a reverse onus where he did have to establish his right to bail. It was not granted automatically, so bail was granted by the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000026\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05436224bbf4fee8a8dcdbb01ad6d15\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Is not this case further evidence of this Government\u2019s soft-on-crime policies that do not work, when Steven Williams, a man with 88 serious criminal convictions, including violence, drug dealing, intimidation, and threatening to kill, gets bail, breaches that bail, and then gets bail again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000027\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229242bb80a035471e8b9264b7d7cc4cdf\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I reject the fact that we should be using a case as tragic as this for political purposes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000028\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b294b543274177b34eb1f40e3ce42b\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that despite all the vein-popping speeches the Minister gave during 9 years of Opposition, when she criticised successive Governments for the inappropriate use of bail, Steven Williams was freed on bail on four occasions on her watch, and that as heinous as the murder of wee Coral Burrows is, in 2 weeks\u2019 time, when politicians have had their say, and the media have moved on to another story, Coral will simply be consigned to the history books alongside 3-year-old Anahera Ross Lewis who was tortured and punched to death\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000029\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229f50f1ed353a4488a87b1a39466638a3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The question is far too long. The member may have about three more words.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000030\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022555c1c62cde942838e5b9f530cfee904\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is it not a fact that we can expect no changes from this Government, and all we are simply waiting for in 10 months\u2019 time is another such murder?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000031\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226115fc4458b043e99db982cf07e11f14\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The bail laws were changed in the year 2000, which did lead to a reverse in the onus of proof being applied in this particular case. The matter of bail is a matter for the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000032\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f894c40fb9f14da680e37a9dde39d1aa\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am a bit concerned about your ruling that Mr Mark was taking too long over his question. Often Ministers in this House say that in order to give a full explanation in answer to a question they need to take some extra time. This is an extremely serious matter. It is on the front page of all newspapers today. It was leading news on television last night. I suspect that it will consume the nation over the next couple of weeks. I think it is only fair that the people asking questions have a reasonable amount of time to put more in the question than might be normal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000033\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226959a903f8654910873bb3b2a4bba912\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No. If the member had rung me before question time and told me he had a longer question to ask, then, as always, I would have advised the House of that and allowed it. I do the same if a Minister says an answer will be longer. I advise that too. However, there is a courtesy in letting me know about those things.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000034\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dcea057d9572427c894532ee73c7368b\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am left with a niggling feeling and I would like some assurance from you. Subsequent to the Minister trying to avoid the question by pointing out that we should not be asking questions about such a horrendous and heinous crime, leaving us with the view that she would rather not answer questions that are embarrassing, and using Coral as an excuse for that, subsequently you did shorten my question. If I were to do a word count, and no doubt your staff could, about the length of my question, compared with some other members\u2019 questions in this House, I am just a little worried that I might not have been treated as fairly as others.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000035\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224880e13c508746a08da452a342406e4c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, the member has been treated very, very fairly in this House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000036\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ffddb962954d42bf9a0f43cf8408ea9b\u0022\u003EDeborah Coddington\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister agree that we are relying too much on Governments for the safety of children and not taking enough personal responsibility as parents, families, and communities, as expressed by the Hon John Tamihere; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000037\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223e8f987e35bd4707b8d5f1a595dc5193\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I personally believe that there is a collective responsibility. We are all responsible for the children of this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000038\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215cf5ec2288e458891e7e32371e5bb28\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: In light of the fact that the police viewed Steven Williams as a volatile time bomb, with countless convictions for violence, drug dealing, abuse, intimidation, drink-driving, and threatening to kill a 16-year-old, why did neither justice nor child protection agencies think to question whether he should be living in a family with young children?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000039\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba74caf6e235478fb5a5f24a75bd69c1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure whether that matter was actually referred by those agencies to the child protection agencies. What I am sure of, though, is that the police, taking all those matters into account, did oppose bail. The tragedy of this particular case would suggest that even if Steven Williams had not been granted bail, Coral\u2019s death may still have occurred, but at a later date.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000040\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226dd6b0eec1e24bafb627102965fc0f7e\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it Government policy that a man with a violent criminal record should be permitted home detention at an address with two young children, when it was today revealed that Steven Williams was not allowed near his own children and was not allowed near his sister\u2019s children because he is reported to have attacked one of them; and why did this Government\u2019s system allow that man home detention at Coral Burrows\u2019 home?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000041\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002236f123c3d2c34fe785667aaac7ebfd1c\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not sure which particular provisions of the law provided for the home detention in this particular case, but it was not for a serious violent offence, in fact.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000042\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e4cca4fa3da436580562b87b9c601f2\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Noting that Williams\u2019 spell of home detention for cannabis offences did nothing to deter him from drugs or stop him from progressing to the supply of and the use of pure methamphetamine, does the Minister agree that home detention is a ridiculous sentence for a drug addict; and, had the matter been addressed earlier, would it not conceivably have saved Coral Burrows\u2019 life?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000043\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225a97ccd79b53422b9413f6eff1ba8f8d\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the evidence in respect of the possession and cultivation of cannabis and the moving on to the highly dangerous drug, P. In this particular case I suspect that the tragedy is that it was going to happen anyway; it was just a matter of time. I think that what we should all do as a Parliament is try to learn the lessons of it, to prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again,.rather than try to apportion blame. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000044\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dc71c240505a4aa3bbefa816473af8fc\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister saying that even if Steven Williams had been in jail, she believes that wee Coral would have been killed anyway; and what information does she now have that she could share with the House to enlighten us all as to what brought her to that conclusion, contrary to what Don Finlayson was saying?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000045\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002203b730bdd7064fedb30f684c1621626e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: What I said was that the tragedy may well still have occurred later on, once he was released from jail. This man seemed to be on a trajectory, starting with offences that go back into the 1990s. Everyone can look at himself or herself on this particular case. There is no point trying to apportion blame now. We must try to stop it from ever happening again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000046\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022fc2c6b2bdab54520b6a2c8a01ee92752\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014Commercial Development\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000047\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E2. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e7a33d4916b149a18f9e091fcb990313\u0022\u003EDr DON BRASH (Leader of the Opposition)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Does the Government plan to include commercial development as a customary right in the proposed legislation to deal with the foreshore and seabed; if so, what are the implications for the aquaculture, mining, and tourism industries?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022015b539634ca4abc8c3c67a6c3dcc9cf\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000048\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022015b539634ca4abc8c3c67a6c3dcc9cf\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E Decisions on legislation will be announced in due course. However, I can advise the member that the advice to the Government is that a development right is not a customary right.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000049\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f2b9f45d557c4b16996e08977ef97626\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Prime Minister aware that her Ministers and chief of staff told Te Ope Mana a Tai last week that the Government would accept a concept of customary title to the foreshore and seabed with commercial use attached, and does she endorse the example they used that if there was a customary right to collect two buckets of sand from the beach, they should be entitled to take two buckets and sell them?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000050\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022215a2339916d4c4e8e0bee751cf7af8c\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As my colleague said, does it come down to two buckets of sand? I repeat: the advice to the Government has been that a development right is not a customary right. I can also say that the Deputy Prime Minister and other Ministers have been earnestly working to get a solution on this matter\u2014unlike the Opposition, which is more interested in dividing New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000051\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220cf1dedceda744c9882b70d1cffccf2d\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Government committed to a fair and negotiated share of commercial development rights on the coast within the limits of ecological sustainability for local hap\u016B and iwi?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000052\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022245e2e4c102840fe8c61db0e82ce7832\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: Cabinet has not yet taken final decisions on the proposal, which it expects to unveil next week. We will be keeping in touch with the Greens and United Future as proposals develop, but I am not in a position today to outline details.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000053\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002221d3bf346aaf472791836fd913a1ef3d\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Will she confirm that aquaculture is part of commercial fishing, and that the 1992 M\u0101ori fisheries settlement was a full and final settlement of all current and future claims based on rights and interests of M\u0101ori in commercial fishing; if not, why would the Prime Minister not give that confirmation, if she is not prepared to give it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000054\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002242b2cbe87ab44b2dad209e2e1bad271f\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that aquaculture was not covered in that settlement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000055\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022692544309351428b9aec5c7f39934fc0\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister give the House the assurance that any right of customary title granted as a result of this proposed settlement will not be superior to the rights of access and ownership that will be enjoyed by all New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000056\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229b9d6179632540769524c001d2a30852\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: From the outset what the Government has sought to do is balance the general public\u2019s rights of access, long enjoyed, with the customary rights of M\u0101ori. I remain convinced that that can be done without unduly impeding on anybody\u2019s rights.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000057\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a80b66d7dd064fbeb4bb2ebbe9dc44a8\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Have her Ministers and officials told M\u0101ori interest groups that the Government has moved from its policy position in August to one where there will be a mana whenua title from which real partnership will flow; if so, can she detail exactly what this real partnership will entail, and what impact it will have on other New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000058\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022437de917c1c24dbeb89453bcfbf943f7\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The concept of partnership is one that I believe is inherent in the Treaty of Waitangi. As I said before, I am interested in solutions that bring New Zealanders together to work together, not dividing people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000059\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a7f94e0e0bd14db8bd0edd70eb23d560\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Are we to understand that it is her Government\u2019s intention to revisit the full and final provisions of the 1992 commercial M\u0101ori fisheries settlement; therefore in respect of aquaculture, that full and final settlement lasted about 11 years, just as the \u201Cin perpetuity\u201D of the West Coast Accord signed by her Labour Government lasted about 12 years?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000060\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00227f8c14fb-b919-46ef-866b-8db68cfa4cf0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b435957b19964c89b2b4a0de5c66e017\u0022\u003EHon Dr Michael Cullen\u003C/span\u003E: That member\u2019s Labour Government, too!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000061\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224554f0826f1f4a509e45c428be4122f6\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Absolutely. But I was not the one who reneged on it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000062\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c4fd22da1c9244a2b01f9673bfeccd15\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: The member is misinformed. The full and final provisions did not apply to aquaculture.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000063\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022104ce538f085407aa8c77e6471062d96\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Prime Minister confirm media reports that a M\u0101ori caucus revolt is imperilling Government plans for the foreshore and seabed, and that \u201CSemi bust-ups and major bust-ups are going on everywhere.\u201D; if so, what assurances can she give the House, with the summer holidays on the horizon, that the foreshore and seabed issue will be resolved any time soon?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000064\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a582e2096c65497c8653140aef0339e9\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I am happy to say that I can confirm no such thing, nor have I even seen the palest shadow of the behaviour of someone like Maurice Williamson.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000065\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f57a468c1484525b6ed5c43926a5155\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave of the House to table the Treaty of Waitangi fisheries claim settlement of 1992, known as the Sealord\u2019s deal, clearly showing that aquaculture was included as part of commercial fishing in that deal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000066\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022be49050a482c4a97bb6a3d8284e4346c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000067\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d7269b4b239145da90c9dd14ce4b848f\u0022\u003ERoad Haulage Industry\u2014Government Initiatives\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000068\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E3. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2899cf0077e45ecaed519ab2624404e\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Social Development and Employment: What initiatives is the Government taking to promote employment in the road haulage industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022 data-id=\u0022d46e0224f76548338fe38788ad06fdbb\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000069\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d46e0224f76548338fe38788ad06fdbb\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY (Minister for Social Development and Employment):\u003C/span\u003E As part of the Jobs Jolt programme, an agreement between Work and Income and National Road Carriers has been signed to take people who have been on a benefit, train them, and employ them in the road haulage industry. Industry research suggests that the sector has a current shortage of some 1,000 drivers nationwide, with strong demand expected to continue. Tony Friedlander of the Road Transport Forum described this jobs partnership as a \u201Cvery practical initiative which can return benefits to everyone involved\u201D and as a \u201Cpositive move towards solving the growing shortage of truck drivers\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000070\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ebf1da7778842d1bdde7748554e8902\u0022\u003EJill Pettis\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister advise what other industry employment partnerships are proposed, and how many more people are expected to gain jobs as a result?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000071\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b045cec564da429cae5d202e71bfc5ff\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The Jobs Jolt partnership has already signed an agreement with the hospitality industry, and the road haulage agreement now joins that. Further agreements will be developed with a number of high-growth industries, including tourism, retailing, and the trades. At the moment, we are targeting 2,500 new jobs through industry partnerships. They will be part of 22,000 jobs overall.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000072\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002287781646cde848178e876196cfd74fd0\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: Given that Work and Income has worked closely with industry to address skill shortages for many, many years, what is genuinely new here, and how will this programme overcome the financial barrier, such as the high cost of learning to drive a truck and obtaining a heavy transport licence, that is the main reason for the shortage?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000073\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022703627a4bf5449afbb2a21abc5f572a4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I think the industry regards the programme as genuinely new, and that is why it regards it as a very positive move towards solving the growing shortage of truck drivers, as Tony Friedlander is reported as saying. The member is wrong. The main reason for the lack of truck drivers at the present time, as the industry itself will say, is the lack of forward planning on behalf of the industry.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000074\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220da3e3e9c0074776b7028722e14d09b0\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Does this industry partnership that has been announced mean that people interested in a driving career will have access to finance via a student loan scheme, or via a superior scheme?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000075\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225d2682119f7241beae1ab0475a8b6f07\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: The most likely source of funding for people in that position would come through the standard training measure, which is part of the industry training organisation funding model and not part of the equivalent full-time student model, which is part of the loan scheme that the member was talking about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000076\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cbb48293d0f4613b99b9791062dff06\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: Noting the Minister\u2019s desire to promote employment in the road haulage industry, will he be examining the attitude of some members of the commercial vehicle inspection units, who on occasion stop truckies and penalise them very severely for some exceedingly simple errors in their logbooks, leading to frustration and to drivers leaving the industry?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000077\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022605133aa-6c88-4150-82dd-7d9fcf1824b4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257699b91c1024ba2a4c21fdc445f6ff4\u0022\u003EHon STEVE MAHAREY\u003C/span\u003E: I, personally, will not be doing that; I am the Minister for Social Development and Employment. But if the member does have a concern and brings it to me, I will pass it on to the appropriate Minister.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000078\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002298070123671f4f72a134521284dfbbdf\u0022\u003EForeshore and Seabed\u2014M\u0101ori Members\u0027 Support\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000079\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E4. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223c137d4e91224c77ba6bda5211ed7c3e\u0022\u003EDAIL JONES (NZ First)\u003C/span\u003E to the Prime Minister: Is she concerned that the Hon Tariana Turia is reported in the Dominion Post today as telling colleagues that M\u0101ori members could exercise more influence from the sideline over the Government\u2019s policy on the foreshore and seabed; if so, what does she intend to do about it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022 data-id=\u0022f548d17d3f5e4813a4a3fc072d2ea023\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000080\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f548d17d3f5e4813a4a3fc072d2ea023\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK (Prime Minister):\u003C/span\u003E No.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000081\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222cb15816cd704944820d34cc732ca433\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Is she concerned that there is clear evidence that the Hon Tariana Turia and her supporters have rejected the Government\u2019s policy on the foreshore and seabed announced on 23 June 2003, which was to introduce legislation to give clear expression to the Crown\u2019s ownership of the foreshore and seabed; and is the policy now in the control of a minor Minister, with the tail wagging the dog insofar as the leadership of the Labour Party is concerned?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000082\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222574c2d5c3024beca4538688bb70ca98\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have seen no such evidence.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000083\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f28d7018bd449f19fbd662cf90d4089\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister accept that the doctrine of collective Cabinet responsibility must operate in this matter, and will she assure the House that if Mrs Turia does not publicly support the Government\u2019s position on the foreshore and seabed issue, she will expect her resignation as a Minister?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000084\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c3184010d044033b7f459db3c651be3\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: As Prime Minister, I will determine what the bounds of manoeuvre for Ministers are. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000085\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002219386ba0-5a6e-485e-abc0-5a3128b4e1f6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222da48063311048339096fb1e2df5a8a9\u0022\u003EHon Ken Shirley\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Prime Minister grant Minister Tariana Turia an exemption from the collective responsibility provisions of the Cabinet Office Manual; if so, why, and if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000086\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223df42bb7ed624295bb464efd08edc232\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I have had no such request.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000087\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022144d8346c4f443ce81d5a51712353516\u0022\u003EMetiria Turei\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Prime Minister not agree that it is entirely appropriate, and, indeed, their responsibility, for M\u0101ori MPs to exercise influence on behalf of M\u0101ori and their constituents; is that not a fundamental part of the democratic process?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000088\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f7f0c513623e4bee975416dff239eadd\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I certainly expect members, including Ministers, to work within the Government on behalf of their constituents, and I say of Mrs Turia that she contributes a great deal to Government policy, and is a full and constructive contributor. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000089\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223f221899a09741ce820efe77fcae0c01\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Why has the Prime Minister been unable to introduce legislation since 23 June 2003 that will ensure that the Crown has legal title to the foreshore, seabed, and other parts of the environment where ownership could be disputed, and, at the same time, protect M\u0101ori and all other New Zealanders\u2019 traditional rights of use; is that because she is no longer able to lead all the members of the Labour Party caucus to a mutually peaceful resolution of a problem that she foisted upon New Zealand and New Zealanders on 23 June 2003?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000090\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022326e72e296584f14b6b5c1467a518e49\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: There were so many non sequiturs in that question that I do not know where to begin. The Government has been working earnestly with a great range of interests to get a solution to the problem that the Court of Appeal dumped on our doorstep.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000091\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f4da5811-fb5a-4721-b57a-518446bd7796\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e465ff545bc49f38c8eacb9b41744da\u0022\u003EDail Jones\u003C/span\u003E: Should the Prime Minister not also be concerned that the Hon Tariana Turia\u2019s reported comment, signifying the failure of the Prime Minister to resolve a problem created by herself and the Hon Margaret Wilson over the seabed and foreshore issue, now has considerable similarities with problems experienced by Prime Minister Blair over the education tax, and former Prime Minister Thatcher over the poll tax; and is it now clear that this is the beginning of the end of her Labour Government?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000092\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228ff55f5e-9237-45e2-8e15-24228a10320e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e1debb2ccf4b4caa97d0ca3c6ef0f43a\u0022\u003ERt Hon HELEN CLARK\u003C/span\u003E: I see no parallel.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000093\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022d48244fc-ceef-4ef5-9cee-851e4d439468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d46122b417fe4c1dba59e02f082a0323\u0022\u003EDr Don Brash\u003C/span\u003E: I seek leave to table a copy of the Cabinet Office Manual, so that the Prime Minister and all Ministers will understand the constraints imposed by that manual.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000094\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a955a82535f94e63a58747a6bb0aa6a0\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that manual. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000095\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002263474e9e8ede4a0190bfe74e3360d65a\u0022\u003EEducation\u2014M\u0101ori Achievement\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000096\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E5. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254868185c31d4a5294450d228473f763\u0022\u003ENANAIA MAHUTA (Labour\u2014Tainui)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Education: What reports has he received on improving M\u0101ori achievement in education?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022 data-id=\u00226788cd1c0f524b6186d413b8cfe52a70\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000097\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226788cd1c0f524b6186d413b8cfe52a70\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD (Minister of Education):\u003C/span\u003E Today I released the results of a research project, Te Kotahitanga, which has shown significant evidence of improvements in M\u0101ori students\u2019 achievement through a new approach to teaching. It considers ways to keep students enthused and excited about learning, and shows that it is the quality of the in-class, face-to-face relationships and interactions between students and their teachers that makes an enormous difference to student achievement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000098\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220e7e8da2-a6a1-41bb-aeb0-a49be255a293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d05f77da17364ff2af5b1d01372f5f7e\u0022\u003ENanaia Mahuta\u003C/span\u003E: Can the Minister outline what steps the Government is taking to lift M\u0101ori student achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000099\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022231f3f203f9f4ed99f1b046213df2b6b\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: The Government is committed to ensuring that all our children have the opportunity to reach their full potential in education. We are putting a real focus on using research like this to help to lift M\u0101ori student achievement, as it puts a spotlight on what works in practice in the mainstream classroom. We look forward to this valuable work being extended further next year.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000100\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221a59d3ae-788b-4b19-b7dd-7d0e29a626fc\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229ee2b4871fda4b718c4a48fc30891601\u0022\u003EHon Brian Donnelly\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister telling the House that the former view of Ministry of Education officials that all we had to do was to teach M\u0101ori students te reo me ng\u0101 tikanga M\u0101ori and educational underachievement would miraculously disappear is not, in fact, the complete answer to the issue?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000101\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279db8b64-1f9b-4416-9b81-a12963db9cbf\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002231c749341e114f329f374e6921784a10\u0022\u003EHon TREVOR MALLARD\u003C/span\u003E: In relation to the final part of the question, yes. I am not sure whether all the member\u2019s earlier assumptions were correct.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000102\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022d804eb3c76e74841879893995461be40\u0022\u003EFarming\u2014Minister\u2019s Achievements\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000103\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E6. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a41c98ad2bd40cc978967223818a6d0\u0022\u003EGERRARD ECKHOFF (ACT)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for Rural Affairs: What have been his main achievements for New Zealand\u2019s farming community over the last 12 months?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022f1cc90d42a5f481e86dd85eb0ddf6705\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000104\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f1cc90d42a5f481e86dd85eb0ddf6705\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister for Rural Affairs)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister for Rural Affairs: It would take some considerable time to list all this Government\u2019s achievements for rural communities, but my personal favourite is the work we have done in maintaining and enhancing health services for rural people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000105\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201782033c46740d7a142745fa1b864f6\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: Why does he believe that that self-styled achievement outweighs the following: enticing hundreds of farmers to march on Parliament to protest the flatulence tax, his failure to advocate against the closure of rural schools, a 7 percent rise in crime in Otago alone, his failure to protect property rights over land access issues, and the funding of rural hospitals, which are losing money because their funding is race-based; which of the above would he rank as his finest achievement?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000106\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002274ca3c943d324da3b608c626c5a198f2\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: There are a number of questions there. We have not made any decisions over land access, and there is a process under way whereby the Minister will hear submissions from the rural sector on that issue. We have put more funding into rural health services, and the Government is always willing to listen to anyone who wishes to march to Parliament on any particular issue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000107\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002276e4b8b7-c205-49d8-a21e-5d7a3ddf1330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f14ac06b2b904354a00f123be7235323\u0022\u003EMark Peck\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister accept the contention inherent in the member\u2019s question that this Government has no truck with rural communities; if not, what advice would he give Mr Eckhoff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000108\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224a486eae932a4bea8351add12a07248c\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We support rural New Zealand. We have a focus on ensuring rural people can access services. The Heartland Services centres have been rolled out, along with high-speed Internet access. We are working to provide quality health and education services in rural areas. We are fostering the sustainability of, and innovation in, rural communities through things such as the Sustainable Farming Fund. We understand the value of rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000109\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b63935ee-d78b-43a8-a3bc-996e7951fb9b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223693286b29734778b5c1b473b6a35083\u0022\u003ER Doug Woolerton\u003C/span\u003E: Why is it, then, that the honourable Minister is not seen to be publicly supportive of our major export earners\u2014or is it simply that he just does not care?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000110\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226c1062412b4440e19c82a6aff09f7721\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: We have done a lot of work for the key industries, such as producer board reform, supporting them through good rural infrastructure, and ensuring that good training systems are in place for rural communities. That is how this Government has assisted the rural sector in this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000111\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c3657952-0eec-4a34-918d-677d93c1b281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022979685f8cc9a4295a325f0a21af6f565\u0022\u003EIan Ewen-Street\u003C/span\u003E: Would the Minister agree that the implementation of the national organic standards and the strategy for the organic sector, both of which were Green Party initiatives, have been amongst his main achievements for the rural sector; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000112\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225441f487cff04e76bcf53ab8a1f76ce1\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am sorry that I omitted to mention those achievements. They are part of a package of, as I said before, many, many things that this Government has done for rural New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000113\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022295c9ca3-0f0a-4af6-b1bd-32c916cca579\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225c835aef13a54801ad7024830dfa2f86\u0022\u003EGerrard Eckhoff\u003C/span\u003E: What does the Minister have to say to residents of his own electorate, like councillor Terry Kennedy, who said that the Government should be ashamed of what it is doing to rural health and education, and to the chairman of Hakataramea Valley School board of trustees, Peter Aitken, who said that the Government consultation was \u201Ca load of ...\u201D\u2014the expletive has been deleted\u2014\u201CAt the end of the day they did what they felt like, and they knew the outcome before they came here.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000114\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002223f2439a51784b698ad903a84900d5ad\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: Those people are entitled to their opinions. However, I support the robust system of consultation that we have had, particularly over the issue of rural school reviews. I am happy to say that my colleague Mr Mallard has fronted up in rural communities and explained that they are entitled to quality education, in the same way that urban people are, as well.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000115\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002236bb28cb6ede48f5826fb163d9acfd08\u0022\u003EAir Quality\u2014National Environmental Standard\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000116\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E7. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225e13de861d774d498f21ae5d52f02be1\u0022\u003EJEANETTE FITZSIMONS (Co-Leader\u2014Green)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister for the Environment: Is the proposed national environmental standard on air quality intended to protect and promote public health?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022 data-id=\u00229932e41bc375414780eb478ffbc4a2e4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000117\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229932e41bc375414780eb478ffbc4a2e4\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS (Minister for the Environment):\u003C/span\u003E Yes.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000118\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022897783b046ee4e968749c69ac417f5c8\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the standard allow peak concentrations of fine particulates 2\u00BD times higher than the current guidelines, given that the World Health Organization says there is no safe level, and that they are believed to contribute to 400 deaths and 750,000 restricted activity days a year in Auckland alone?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000119\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002298503d5b8a0a4c4287fa376a592b0e12\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I agree that research, including World Health Organization research, has not identified a threshold below which health effects do not occur, and that there is some risk with inhaling at proposed standards. However, given that many of our towns at the moment significantly breach the proposed concentration on many days a year, achieving that standard should bring about considerable health benefits.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000120\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00222fdc2d34c92f43bdbe4324e6ba976ede\u0022\u003EDr Ashraf Choudhary\u003C/span\u003E: What are the likely health benefits from the proposed air quality standards?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000121\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201e19c6fdc38482bb59fdec5672b0577\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: Poor air quality causes severe health problems, as was noted by the previous questioner. Modelling by the Ministry for the Environment indicates that achieving the proposed standards will prevent annually around 40 premature deaths, 40 hospitalisations, and 75,000 person-days of restricted activity.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000122\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228e12ee38c224485da626e9bc231d4611\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Given that motor vehicles are the main source of fine particulates, particularly in Auckland, is not this standard just designed not to get in the way of Mayor Banks\u2019 extreme road-building plans for Auckland, and has she seen the recent UK study in which children\u2019s coughing was directly related to the distance they lived from a road?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000123\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dda7fad9622d46a486816effc84c6e86\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I am very much aware that in certain areas around Auckland\u2014and I have seen the studies\u2014vehicle congestion adds, very much so, to the poor air quality. There is a distinction between congestion and slow traffic, and moving traffic.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000124\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002277565a000d3445ba8f01874fc2411742\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Why does the Minister think it is appropriate to set a national minimum standard at a level that is known to kill people, especially when regional councils, which have the power to set higher standards than this, will face huge business lobbies if they try to go beyond the national standard, in order to protect their communities?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000125\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2827c427a864c33a3bb78f59177b7f0\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: I would beg to suggest that any standard is better than the current no-standard, and that the case of the difference between proposed standards in Christchurch, or Canterbury regional standards, and this one are to be debated between them. It is accepted by me\u2014and in working with the mayor and people of Christchurch at this very moment\u2014that the cause there is more to do with housing than vehicles. The room for movement at the moment seems only to be on industry, and that is where the tension lies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000126\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002209278070-a54a-41e9-8a27-45166301277e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b385b71411fd434ea14f41104dd6571c\u0022\u003EJeanette Fitzsimons\u003C/span\u003E: Would not Environment Canterbury\u2019s current air plan also produce higher air quality than the Government\u2019s proposed minimum standard, and is not Environment Canterbury\u2019s main concern simply the rate of implementation, in order to give industry time to adapt?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000127\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00221583b5cb-f4e0-4981-97ba-193c338ff404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221aca8c45b39b47928fd830a628643670\u0022\u003EHon MARIAN HOBBS\u003C/span\u003E: From my understanding, the problem in Canterbury has more to do with the poverty of households impacting on their ability to lower domestic emissions, which are by far the greatest problem in air pollution in Canterbury. That is why there is some tension at the moment between the flexibility that comes with industry lowering emissions, versus some support for domestic lowering of emissions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000128\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00222f26418395f748d2af2efd200986daf9\u0022\u003EHousing\u2014Quality Assurance\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000129\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E8. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022491476ed6b134e00b724dd9e94e69d76\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Commerce: What is the Government doing to protect homeowners in their purchase of built household units from property developers and speculative builders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00224dd172b87a674f49898fa7b8dae8b9f5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000130\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224dd172b87a674f49898fa7b8dae8b9f5\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Minister of Commerce):\u003C/span\u003E The Government has agreed to introduce further changes to the Building Bill currently before the Government Administration Committee that will extend the warranty provisions to property developers and speculative builders. In addition, such developers and builders will be required to obtain code-compliance certificates prior to the completion of contracts for the sale of household units.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000131\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224c264fda759a455984415232bc0d9fd8\u0022\u003ELynne Pillay\u003C/span\u003E: Why are these changes to the Building Bill necessary?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000132\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022de5e55fc86d14b2386b49cbdac4d37bd\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: When someone buys a unit or house off a developer or speculative builder, there is no original contract to fall back on if something needs to be fixed. Therefore the warranty provisions will provide redress, should it be required. These will be implied by law, and if they are not included in the purchase agreement, there can be no contracting out. Homeowners who, in the past, have not realised that their brand new home was not code-compliant when they bought it from such a developer or builder will be welcoming this proposal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000133\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e4b09a29-dfd3-42c0-8585-11463bd6077b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c59d1bc42a664a699c1934f9aa80290b\u0022\u003EHon David Carter\u003C/span\u003E: Will the Minister assure the House that any such legislative change will be more effective than the fiasco around the Weathertight Homes Resolution Services Act that promised access to speedy resolution, and has so far, out of 2105 claims, resolved only 33?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000134\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d7c04631d62b4408a2457be53711e0d1\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The member has quite rightly identified a problem with the Weathertight Homes Resolution Service procedures, which were designed to give people effective and ready access to solutions. But what we have actually seen is people spending a considerable amount of money on lawyers, instead of on getting their houses fixed, and I would like to do something about that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000135\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022a9ea4baa72db49a6ae50740075f7344c\u0022\u003ECriminal Offenders\u2014Bail\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000136\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E9. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229e80e0e31dc24496ad3e2e166c04ee19\u0022\u003EHon TONY RYALL (National\u2014Bay of Plenty)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Justice: Is it Government policy that offenders with 80 or more previous convictions are able to receive bail; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022 data-id=\u00220ee0b89886d84273a368666a0085ccbd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000137\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220ee0b89886d84273a368666a0085ccbd\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL (Associate Minister of Justice)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Justice: Government policy on bail was laid out in the Bail Act of 2000. That Act implemented significant reforms to bail law, including introducing a presumption against bail for serious repeat offenders. However, decisions on bail in specific cases are a matter for the court.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000138\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002253aec90a12e546f7a941701805d07dba\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s assurances at the time of the passing of the Bail Act that it would ensure public security as the ultimate goal, what changes will the Government consider, given a situation whereby a man with 88 convictions for quite serious offences can get bail, breach those bail conditions, and then be granted bail yet again?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000139\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdb8b4147708461d98ee3e6ea5f39bc2\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: The point I made in an earlier answer is that in that particular case section 12 of the Bail Act was invoked and the onus of proof was reversed. The court made the decision on the bail application. Bail was opposed by the police. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000140\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d6e6539d7514a4885bffa09155e9701\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister recall saying on 1 March 1998: \u201CProfessional criminals with multiple convictions and a track record of offending on bail need to know that immediate imprisonment will be the automatic response if they commit further crimes. Taking hard-core criminals out of circulation is the only effective way of reducing the soaring crime rate.\u201D; and, if he does not, does he remember saying it was time the Minister of the day got serious about the review of bail laws to produce a system with better safeguards for the community; if so, what will the Minister do now to tighten up the bail laws?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000141\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022854ddeee0cd84cc592dc7d730786ba84\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, and that is why the Bail Act was amended in the year 2000.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000142\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220994a659db9b4c65abdd035b69abab3e\u0022\u003EDr Muriel Newman\u003C/span\u003E: In light of that answer, what does the Minister of Justice say in response to present and former police who agree with detective Don Finlayson that the judicial system is kicking them in the teeth, and who stated: \u201CI left, and others are leaving, because we are wasting our time.\u201D?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000143\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226f5cc36a695245e8a13dbb0a329ed25e\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: I understand why the police would feel that way about this particular case, because on that particular occasion the police opposed bail, as they did on other occasions. However, at the end of the day, even with the reverse onus of proof, it is up to the court to make decisions on bail applications.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000144\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a83ea07a-806c-45ad-95bb-eb2c481cd0e2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022caccf0e85eab4b50a9851519be882b20\u0022\u003EHon Tony Ryall\u003C/span\u003E: Given that the Bail Act was previously amended because Parliament decided that judges were not being tough enough on bail, given that in this case judges believed they had the power to grant bail, even though people had originally breached their bail conditions, and that was the reason they were before the judge, is it not time that Parliament again amended the law to tighten it up and give a much clearer message to judges that a person with 88 previous convictions does not get bail?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000145\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221640078df4d64a2c98775cf0333e7d9a\u0022\u003EHon LIANNE DALZIEL\u003C/span\u003E: Each individual case is decided on its own facts. Not all of the convictions were serious criminal convictions, not all of those convictions happened after the 1999 election, and not all those bail decisions happened after the 1999 general election, either. There is no point playing politics with this appalling tragedy. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000146\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002289eab17b636a46299ba7dcfb6073ee35\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There was too much interjection during that answer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000147\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223224e6baec0347b0bc39742070c4958e\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are probably likely to rule that in that case the Minister addressed the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000148\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281351b084cb54c418d4b007b8e436516\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Most certainly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000149\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e6b4dc55-3561-49a8-a871-ae005354ef90\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d44fb2d27ff94d3f98297f14604aa2aa\u0022\u003EGerry Brownlee\u003C/span\u003E: Well, I ask you to consider this. It was a simple question that asked whether Parliament should have another look at these laws. No answer was given to that. A lecture was given to the House about how the current law works. We all know it is insufficient, and that was why the question was asked in the first place.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000150\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022831cf3c27a974158a2c7a9bdf87d223c\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: That last point was not part of a point of order. The Minister did address the question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000151\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002207dc4112-8a19-4dd6-a57c-878b47f8a9b6\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00225936909393ca4dacaaac53ed8f6908cf\u0022\u003ERon Mark\u003C/span\u003E: I seek the leave of the House to table a report in which Mr Goff states that Parliament needs to change the law to instruct the courts to lock these crooks up.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000152\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022661681b95e734cdea4eec5bfcef05120\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Leave is sought to table that document. Is there any objection? There is objection.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000153\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002215487744a837496a96ff708b262463d6\u0022\u003EHealth Services\u2014Rural Areas\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000154\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E10. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e63fc987c1384e4285684f0c72c9c6c5\u0022\u003EDAVID PARKER (Labour\u2014Otago)\u003C/span\u003E to the Associate Minister for Rural Affairs: How is the Government improving the delivery of rural health services in New Zealand?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022d033701b20d2464ea12ea3fda30833fc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000155\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d033701b20d2464ea12ea3fda30833fc\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister for Rural Affairs):\u003C/span\u003E This Government\u2019s mobile surgical services initiative has completed its second year, exceeding its targets for operations. In the past year the service has travelled the length of the country delivering well over 1,000 surgical procedures to people in rural communities. Just yesterday the mobile bus was winner of a United Nations \u2013 sponsored world information communications award in Geneva for its achievements in delivering first-class surgical services to people in rural areas.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000156\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f5d71749-ae91-4af7-b2bd-77260398912a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224e601bb408df49d592932a3bda51a402\u0022\u003EDavid Parker\u003C/span\u003E: In practice, what does the success of the mobile surgical bus mean for rural New Zealanders?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000157\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227301bac1d1444e5f808cc22415865a55\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: It means that more than 300 different procedures are available to those using the facility, and it means a high number of operations carried out in each centre. For example, in the year ended October 2003 there were 143 procedures in Warkworth, 89 in Taihape, 67 in Balclutha, 63 in Gore, and 56 in Dunstan Hospital at Clyde.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000158\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d0197c9ad0e3439c83c703d1093bd32c\u0022\u003EKatherine Rich\u003C/span\u003E: With regard to the Minister\u2019s reference to Dunstan Hospital, what is the Minister doing about rural services, in particular the services provided by Dunstan Hospital?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000159\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002254ce20fe546149a8be56f16d67325e59\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I understand there have been negotiations with the Minister of Health, and I think we are likely to see a very, very positive outcome for the people of that region, assisted by the great advocacy of the local member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000160\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002208341a9f4adc4016999b1e25279e4887\u0022\u003ETauranga Surgeon\u2014Patient Safety\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000161\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E11. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227c4abd70efa040bea89d1a6acdd0e877\u0022\u003EDr LYNDA SCOTT (National\u2014Kaikoura)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Health: Will she now take action and order an inquiry to discover why Southern Cross Norfolk Hospital and Tauranga Hospital have suddenly banned Mr Ian Breeze from surgery, but seemed unable to do so previously; if not, why not?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022 data-id=\u0022007604b801c84dbab97d37dce97e89ac\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000162\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022007604b801c84dbab97d37dce97e89ac\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR (Associate Minister of Health)\u003C/span\u003E, on behalf of the Minister of Health: No. The Minister has been advised by the Medical Council and the Health and Disability Commissioner that these matters are being dealt with appropriately.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000163\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba64f79fc86a48ba94cc744899963594\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Did Tauranga Hospital know of any problems Mr Breeze was having at the Norfolk Community Hospital and, previously, at the Southern Cross hospital, and vice versa; if not, why are we are not having an inquiry to investigate how to solve the systemic failure of communication that prevented the whole picture from being seen?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000164\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022930d4d17b7ff4779b6360afd5d3b3354\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: My understanding is that as soon as Tauranga Hospital was notified of the concerns it took action. The Government has moved to improve the system. The passage of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act has meant that anyone or any organisation with complaints can take them to one place\u2014that is, the Health and Disability Commissioner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000165\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ac23eedf-0a53-4d88-a49b-d5b440483616\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002279843be6b9f8425ba65b1d3b6e10f0e1\u0022\u003EDr Lynda Scott\u003C/span\u003E: Was the failure of Tauranga Hospital to suspend Mr Breeze from practice influenced in any way by not what it knew of his error rate but by the case of Dunedin surgeon Robert Phipps, whom HealthCare Otago sacked after a review of competency, costing Otago hundreds of thousands of dollars; if the Minister does not know the answer to this question, why are we not having an inquiry to find out?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000166\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022471dee54-f59e-4497-b3d3-c39044ce7169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002272059d6760e149bdb7394f654cf7a83a\u0022\u003EHon DAMIEN O\u0027CONNOR\u003C/span\u003E: I am not aware of the details around that, but if the member would like to write a question down I am sure we will get details back to her.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000167\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226f43ff4153b34a8f888f00457baa05eb\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u2014Policy\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000168\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E12. \u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022afeabf341c9541d08fd1556b848db29a\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future)\u003C/span\u003E to the Minister of Labour: Does she stand by her statement yesterday regarding aspects of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill that \u201CThe Government considers that skilled employees are in fact an asset of the business, and, just like plant, capital and goodwill are seen as assets, so should employees. So we do not see in this instance that it will be a detriment.\u201D; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u00226a5ceb632f204a60b476a2376e414a22\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000169\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226a5ceb632f204a60b476a2376e414a22\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E Yes, because the bill requires, apart from the vulnerable employee sector, that buyers and sellers of a business turn their minds to what should happen to employees when a business is sold. I understand that this already happens in many transactions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000170\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b52afdde85224be1ae99842f44657c7d\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: If such employees are always a valuable asset whose retention will not be detrimental to the business concerned, why does the Minister see the need for legislation to protect them, when this is surely a business decision for employers to make, as they are the people most capable of recognising these skills?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000171\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022342b7021ab6844a5b1fb97249c4dd49d\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is why the legislation provides for a process not an outcome. It enables the employer and the employee to determine the best situation that applies to them in those circumstances.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000172\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022083855d52b3b4139a389ea116c037471\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Why is the continuity of employment provisions important in developing productive employment relationships?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000173\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fd57ce7d8b734eeaacf8dae96c77c734\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: During the period of economic adjustment in the 1980s and 1990s New Zealand, unfortunately, lost too many skilled employees, and at a time when there is a global skill shortage\u2014and that is recognised by everyone\u2014it is important that we do all we can to attract and to retain skilled employees.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000174\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dd38e7d2519240549481079f3f59dff1\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister believe that saddling the purchaser of an ailing company with its employees, and limiting the ability of the buyer to make changes to staffing and management practices, are in fact positive moves; if so, why?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000175\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e691e05c1d674537a0f84ab11d211508\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The bill does not saddle an employer with new employees. The provisions of the reform bill provide for a process, to be discussed between the employees and the employer, as to what would be appropriate in those circumstances. I note that the provisions do not apply to those businesses that are bankrupt or insolvent in some way.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000176\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aaba841014824c7a88c05071271fc4b3\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does the Minister concede that, despite her view of skilled employees as assets, a new owner cannot sell staff, unlike plant and machinery, and does she agree that if new employers have to pay redundancy, then existing staff may be a liability?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000177\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c05e38168a7f46a181d700e4190ddf67\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: That is a view towards employees that some employers might have. In my experience most in fact do see their employees as being a valuable contribution to their business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000178\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ee35a16fe2d405985a1affdd6a8f390\u0022\u003EHon Roger Sowry\u003C/span\u003E: Given the Minister\u2019s answer before, when she noted that the provisions do not saddle employers with the staff, and she noted that they do not apply to businesses that are insolvent or bankrupt, does she agree that many businesses such as restaurants will go into insolvency or bankruptcy, because new purchasers will not want to hire the staff?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000179\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d4b0fbe822804f4e803dade9e1addcc1\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: No, the evidence is that, when buying a business in those instances, it is frequently important to retain good staff who know the customers and can continue the profitability of the business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000180\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221e1c85b157ab488aab7e4c0589c17c19\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: Supplementary question. No, New Zealand First has had its allocated quota.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000181\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220d171f0d7a8244d68f96f4370b0ac928\u0022\u003EPeter Brown\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. We had 10 questions yesterday, 10 on Tuesday, and we are entitled to 11 once a week.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000182\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a9877c284dc149ef89251517a1aaad45\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: No, there were 11 yesterday\u2014I am sorry. The member\u2019s party has had its week\u2019s questions.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000183\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215a5fef8331e4d9d968179dccb9930d1\u0022\u003ESue Bradford\u003C/span\u003E: Is the Minister concerned for future employment relations and the welfare of employees should a United Future or National MP ever have Cabinet responsibility for employment relations\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000184\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022014651a1-9604-485f-a1d1-4f752fff8c59\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bf14ca2af59342da94f89378c93b0bb3\u0022\u003EMr SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: I want the question asked without reference to that point about United Future or National. I want the member to ask the question she wants to ask, but without reference to the parties, because they are no responsibility of the Minister. The member can come back to it if she wants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000185\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5afa85ab4e746cab01ede573cfc0040\u0022\u003EPaul Adams\u003C/span\u003E: Does she agree that the provision in the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill compelling new owners or contract holders to take on existing staff may have the unintended consequence of forcing employers to make their own staff redundant?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000186\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226bddd83637e44e8dacfcd3ee0b2390b8\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON\u003C/span\u003E: The provisions of the bill that require the transfer of employees relate to vulnerable employees only. It is important to understand that point. Also, the other question of whether employers would deliberately make people redundant is covered in terms of the new employer, if in fact that happens as a result of the transfer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000187\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022257e4f33eeee4bdfac79da07096db673\u0022\u003EEmployment Relations Law Reform Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000188\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00229f7cb0cb76204e5dba9218ce1a852a61\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022af136e71ba194f4c9d0ef118eae447ce\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000189\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022af136e71ba194f4c9d0ef118eae447ce\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill be now read a first time. I propose that this bill be referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee, with an instruction to the committee to present its final report within 6 months. As promised, this Government has reviewed the Employment Relations Act. The review showed the Act is working well, but could be improved. This bill addresses those areas where the Act can be strengthened to achieve better its key objectives of promoting good faith, collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of employment relations. The bill also provides protective measures for employees affected by the sale, transfer, and contracting-out of businesses. Finally, it updates the equal pay legislation, to reflect the changes made to the employment relations framework. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000190\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe review of the Act showed uncertainty exists over the good-faith obligation, and when and how it applies. The lack of penalties for breaches of good faith also encouraged some parties to flout their good-faith obligations. The bill therefore clarifies what good faith is in a broader concept than the common-law obligations of mutual trust and confidence, and that addressing the inequality of power in employment relationships goes beyond focusing on bargaining power alone. It also confirms that good faith applies to individual bargaining situations, and that there must be genuine negotiations over individual employment agreements. Stronger incentives for parties to act in good faith are provided by the introduction of penalties and remedies for serious and sustained breaches of good faith. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000191\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe legislative incentives for the settlement of collective agreements have been relatively weak, and unions have faced significant practical barriers in organising employees collectively to effect an agreement. This bill seeks to reduce those barriers, while still preserving the freedom of individual choice. The bill also directly addresses the issue of free-riding: the practice of employers automatically passing on collectively bargained terms and conditions to employees employed on individual agreements during negotiations. The test will be whether an employer intended to and did, in fact, undermine the collective bargaining process or outcome. If so, it will be a breach of good faith for the employer to pass on the same or similar terms and conditions as those in a collective agreement that is either being bargained for or has been settled. The emphasis is on the bargaining process, both individual and collective, used by the parties, rather than on the outcome of that process. Unions and employers will not be prevented from agreeing that the collective terms and conditions may be passed on to employees employed on individual agreements. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000192\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe bill also provides a new form of assistance to overcome impasses in collective bargaining and facilitate settlement wherever possible. It also makes explicit the principle that collective bargaining should result in a collective agreement, unless there is a genuine reason why it should not. The bill will also facilitate the settlement of multi-employer and multi-union collective agreements. Other unions and employers will be able to easily join in existing collective agreement where the original agreement allows that to occur and all parties agree. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThere has also been some uncertainty about the interaction between the personal grievance provisions in the Employment Relations Act and the intent of the Act to balance the interests of fairness to both employers and employees. The bill makes it clear that employers must consider and balance the legitimate interest of employees when making the decision to dismiss someone, and the tribunal or court that determines that matter also has to take into account both the actions of the employer and the employee. Overall, the test is to be an objective one. This is not a radical revamp of the dismissal law. It draws from existing case law and fits well within good human resources practice. The bill also strengthens the mediation and Employment Relations Authority processes. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000194\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EUnder the bill special protection will be given to specified groups of employees who are particularly vulnerable in change-of-employer situations and lack effective bargaining power, such as cleaners and food service employees. Those employees will have the right to choose to transfer to the new employer on their current terms and conditions of employment. Other employees will also be given protection through the requirement for their employment agreements to contain an employee protection provision. Those provisions will describe what steps the employer will take to protect employees affected by a sale, transfer, or an initial contracting-out of business. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000195\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe bill also introduces new equal pay provisions to replace both the Government Service Equal Pay Act of 1960 and the Equal Pay Act of 1972. The new provisions will update the law on equal pay and cover both Government and private sector employees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000196\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThis bill introduces a good balance of practical and realistic measures that will strengthen the Employment Relations Act and further promote productive employment relations and practices. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022 data-id=\u0022d54bb47223be428e9c90bc3e242fefc9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000197\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d54bb47223be428e9c90bc3e242fefc9\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY (National):\u003C/span\u003E That was a bit half-hearted, I thought, from the Minister. She is clearly under instructions to try to make sure that she does not advocate this bill too strongly. After all, this is the Minister who had to pull these exact same provisions out of the Employment Relations Bill just 3 years ago. This is all the stuff that she tried to put into law during the winter of discontent, and she had to pull it all out. But the unions have come knocking at the door, and the Minister has done what she does best, which is capitulate and say to them: \u201CYes, I will have another go.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000198\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI want to say, first of all, that National totally opposes this bill. We will work with groups around New Zealand to motivate them to ensure that they fight this bill very, very hard. I predict today that we will win and the Minister will lose. That is my prediction on what will occur, because I know that the business community is very, very angry at the lack of consultation on this legislation. I know that small businesses are only just coming to terms with the sort of answer that the Minister gave in the House today, which is basically that if a small-business owner is going to sell the business, and the buyer does not want to buy the staff, that small-business owner is better off going into voluntary liquidation. That is why a lawyer said to me yesterday that this bill is good for him. There will be more voluntary liquidations. This bill will write goodwill off thousands of businesses all over New Zealand. A business that had some goodwill in it will see that goodwill written off because of this legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000199\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI want to talk about a few particulars in the bill, and start with the issue of good faith. The bill now defines much more broadly the issue of good faith, and the good old Labour Party not only defines good faith in a broader way but also socks the employer some fines. The employer who does not meet good faith now will face a $10,000 fine. That is good faith, is it not! But that is nothing new. This is the Government that whacked the fines in on the Holidays Bill and on the occupational safety and health legislation. Every chance it gets, it winds up the fines for employers, because it thinks that employers are rich fat people\u2014and pretty nasty, as well\u2014who can afford to pay the fines. I see Dave Hereora and Lynne Pillay nodding away. That is their view\u2014the good old trade union view of how the bosses are.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000200\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E Now any failure by any employer to consult with the union when dealing with its unionised staff in a workplace will inevitably be an issue of breach of good faith. It is as simple as that. For example, rest home operators dealing with staff who are members of the Service and Food Workers Union put an offer on the table to their elected delegates, who accept it and sign up. The operators have not talked to the union officials; they have only talked to the delegates, and that becomes a breach of good faith. That is outrageous. That plays into the union\u2019s hands and leads to a centralised bargaining situation, which is what the Government wants. That is exactly where this legislation is heading. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000201\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThe transfer of undertakings clause is where all employment agreements are required to address what process will be followed if a business is sold or work contracted out. For example, the owners of corner dairies who hire staff members will have to put into their employment agreements the process they will follow, including when they will disclose to those staff members that they will sell the business.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000202\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022487fdb874c8142449f605b1a3c68a1d7\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Wonderful.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000203\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002201bf6a7134ef48b6970ed4b31b0ea71d\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: \u201CWonderful\u201D say the Labour members. That means that they have no idea about the way business operates. It means that all employers will have to stipulate in all employment agreements the commercial terms they will follow in the event that they want to sell part of their business. That is an extra cost that every employer will now have to bear. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000204\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI bet Labour members will not spend the summer holidays wandering around small retailers saying to them: \u201CHow many staff do you have? Next time you negotiate with them, you will have to tell them how you will deal with them when you sell the business. That includes what the contractual obligations are between you and them, and disclosing financial information to their union about the sale or transfer or contracting out of the business.\u201D That is what I intend to do in summer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000205\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002225c22a83-ff2c-474c-a092-883be2dd63d3\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022846a154833324b16b5d644559dc19924\u0022\u003EDave Hereora\u003C/span\u003E: Marvellous.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000206\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00220282336b3d22460c96395d622cdc0718\u0022\u003EHon ROGER SOWRY\u003C/span\u003E: Dave Hereora says \u201CMarvellous\u201D. I look forward to going into businesses that have three, four, and five staff\u2014retailers\u2014and telling them that this is what they will now have to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000207\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EThen we have the status of this new group of vulnerable employees. These are people who just so happen to belong to the Service and Food Workers Union. That is the union that most of the Labour caucus come from. Hands up\u2014I think there are three or four in the House today\u2014those who came from the Service and Food Workers Union! That is why that group of workers gets special treatment in this legislation. That group of workers have to be paid redundancy if the business is sold. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000208\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003ELet me tell members what happens. Someone owns a footwear manufacturing business and the staff working on the machines are low paid. It is hard work\u2014something that Labour people have never done. If the business is sold, do they get redundancy? No, they do not. But the cleaner who comes in and pushes the broom around does. The lady or man who runs the tuck-shop does, but the person who might be on lower wages, who is the cutter of the leather, does not. So it is not done on wage or status in the workplace, it is done on which union one belongs to and whether one has enough mates in the Labour caucus. What a load of nonsense that is. In that same footwear warehouse\u2014not the retail Warehouse\u2014the guy who looks after the nuggets gets nothing, but the person who works in the tuck-shop gets the redundancy. There is no equity there. It is all about who one\u2019s mates are. It is nonsense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000209\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00228a87c178-9f60-439e-aa9b-0f1336c37ea9\u0022\u003EI want to finish with the drive to get all employers into multi-employment contracts. That is what this is about. This bill tilts the playing field so that employers will get dragged into multi-employment contracts. Labour members love that. They love to think that employers will all have to follow what the large employer does. There is nothing for new small employers in this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022 data-id=\u00221b26c5cd295544e784f76260f34af683\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000210\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221b26c5cd295544e784f76260f34af683\u0022\u003ELYNNE PILLAY (Labour\u2014Waitakere):\u003C/span\u003E This bill is about fairness. It is about ensuring that parties do bargain in good faith. It is about providing security and certainty for vulnerable workers. It is about ensuring that the principles of the Equal Pay Act are applied. Where is the fairness in the lowest, most vulnerable workers in our country losing their jobs one day, and the next day being told they have their job back, but their pay is being cut by 50c an hour? Where is the fairness in unions and workers doing their best to bargain in good faith for a fair collective agreement, only to be met with a flat refusal or a fob-off from an employer?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000211\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003E Where is the fairness in situations where unions and workers have put much time and energy\u2014and workers have paid a fee\u2014to negotiate a deal, to see it undermined by those hard-earned terms and conditions being automatically passed on to non-union workers? Where is the fairness when employers deliberately pay women less than men for doing the same job? The answer is that there is no fairness in those situations. The Opposition members who disagree\u2014and I can see them doing it, that poor sad little group\u2014are behind the times. They are not in touch with workers, workers\u2019 families, or the many employers who do support these amendments, and the polls show it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000212\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fd427be0-7196-4605-b39e-d665553240b0\u0022\u003EI am proud to commend this bill to the House. In doing that, I want to acknowledge the unions, the workers, and the many employers who are committed to ensuring that fairness and equity happens in our workplaces. The result of that is productive working relationships\u2014something that party would not know anything about. Productive working relationships are good for business and good for polls. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u0022e5a213ed16a3486ab921c2f2cb983b31\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000213\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022e5a213ed16a3486ab921c2f2cb983b31\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E There is much in this bill that concerns New Zealand First immensely. The explanatory note states: \u201CTo achieve this, the Act acknowledges the inherent inequality of power in employment relationships, and seeks to balance the interests of employers and employees through the promotion of unions and collective bargaining, the obligation to act in good faith,\u201D. There will never be equal power-sharing between employees and employers as that seems to outline, because basically the employer is responsible for virtually everything. He or she is responsible for the finances of the business, the equipment, the overall safety, the employee well-being, for marketing the business, and for servicing the clients. It is just ridiculous to suggest that employees should have an equal balance of power in the running of a business. That is not to say that they should not have their concerns met from time to time, but to suggest that they should be on an equal power-sharing basis with employers is not practical. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000214\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note continues: \u201CThe Bill seeks to reduce practical and behavioural barriers to collective bargaining through providing appropriate incentives for collective bargaining, as well as provisions to discourage and penalise the deliberate undermining and avoidance of collective bargaining:\u201D. Why should a union have a monopoly on collective bargaining? I asked that question of the Minister of Labour, Margaret Wilson, yesterday in the House, and she said that it is traditional and there is no reason to change it. With due respect to the Minister, that is weak. If it is good enough for the Australians to have the ability to bargain collectively without being in a union, it is good enough for New Zealanders. If the Australians can do it, so should New Zealanders be able to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000215\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThe explanatory note goes on to state: \u201CThe Bill establishes a requirement that all employment agreements contain protective provisions describing what steps the employer will take in the event of any sale, transfer or initial contracting out of business to protect affected employees\u2019 interests. The details of such provisions are subject to negotiation.\u201D I have some real concerns about that, as has New Zealand First. Having said that, I think Lynne Pillay made a good point about workers being sacked one night when the company is sold, and re-engaged the next day for something less than they had been working for\u2014in other words, from time to time, advantage has been taken of workers\u2019 vulnerability. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000216\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has long been on the record as having concerns about casual employment in this country. We have fought long and hard\u2014ever since I have been in the House\u2014to have that addressed. I have had experiences with a stevedoring organisation in Tauranga, which overnight sacked people who had been there for years. They were told: \u201CDon\u2019t come Monday.\u201D Indeed, a good colleague of mine, who worked his way up from planning clerk on the wharf at the Mount, to operations manager of the company in the Mount and a senior role in the nationwide company, was 1 week off 30 years\u2019 service, and was told: \u201CDon\u2019t come back.\u201D When he got the telephone call he thought they were ringing him to tell him to come in for the reception they were putting on to celebrate his 30 years. He was told, \u201CSorry, don\u2019t need you any more.\u201D He had a reasonable-sized house, which he had to sell. He was a grown man, but when I spoke to him about that time he was just about in tears. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000217\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere are legitimate concerns about the way some people are being employed in this country, particularly at the vulnerable stage of their careers. Some people never rise higher than that. They are vulnerable their whole working lives, and they have had treatment by some employers that is not good enough. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000218\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First is genuinely and realistically fearful of this bill, but we believe there is a case for the vulnerable workers to have a better deal. We know of no other way of giving vulnerable workers the ability to air their concerns than to support this bill to the select committee stage. I cannot see, if it remains as it is, that we will be able to support it much further than that, but we believe that low-paid vulnerable workers have a genuine concern and that they need to have a forum in which to air those views and concerns.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000219\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022af79d4c8b62a4c54aa9e81241e140481\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Will you support it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000220\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ef7619a1ecfc406dafcf10536aa918e2\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: We will support it to the select committee stage. We believe in listening to New Zealanders. That is part of the New Zealand First philosophy. I know that that does not count with the National Party. Its members all know better than Mr and Mrs Average New Zealander.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000221\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022513a94463820400e819547d7a5cb17c7\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s them, not us.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000222\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ea20ba564edd4390bb13090491dc45fd\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: That is them over there, is it? The member might be right. We have a track record of listening to the concerns of New Zealanders.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000223\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fc312dc245034297bfcb0a32de6359f8\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Unless they\u2019re immigrants.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000224\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022a01e74d7414a404a88ff0d4540027792\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: How can the member say that, when I am standing here making this speech, and I am New Zealand First\u2019s No. 1 immigrant? I came here a long time ago. I have spent most of my time in this country, and am very proud to be a New Zealander, but I was born just north of London. Back to the bill: New Zealand First wants to see a fair deal for casual, vulnerable workers. We are not talking about the high-flyers, the people who can go from job to job and demand whatever they want, wherever they go. We are talking about the\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000225\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa131b6f14c04622a6ac713d46494c8d\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: MPs.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000226\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d81dcce257744ff2b03eb8d91fdb6335\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I do not know whether an MP can go from job to job. Certainly I would give the Minister advice to hang on to that seat while she has it, because nobody else will pick her up. We believe that it is timely that the concerns of low-paid, casual workers are legitimately and fairly addressed. It is unfortunate that they have to be addressed in this bill. New Zealand First put a few amendments to the Employment Relations Bill when it came in initially, but it was voted down by the Greens, the Alliance, which was in Parliament for a short time, and Labour. They were not interested in casual workers at that time. Now they have apparently done some work and say they will address the concerns of these folk. I hope it is genuine, but New Zealand First has reservations as to whether it is practical and whether it will work. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000227\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe have major concerns with this bill about the way it will impact on business in the balancing of power between employees and employers. We think it is totally wrong and totally outside of good faith to say that people can have a collective contract, only if they are members of a union. We think that is a breach of good faith in itself. We have concerns about low-paid and casual employees, and we believe that sending this bill to the select committee will give MPs the chance to hear their cases first hand. At this point in time, New Zealand First will support this bill to the select committee, but I tell the Government not to count on us for long-term support unless the bill is amended significantly to be fairer and in the better interests of the country as a whole.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u002276920c885606425a891370669c4e6e44\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000228\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002276920c885606425a891370669c4e6e44\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party is delighted that this bill, aimed at reforming and improving the Employment Relations Act, has finally reached the House. Although we have reservations about some aspects of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill, we are certainly in full support of its key aims and objectives. It is over 3 years since the Employment Relations Act passed into law, and, probably like others here today, I remember 2000 as a period of parliamentary trench warfare. It was a year in which National, ACT, and representatives of big business acted as if the New Zealand economy would collapse as a result of the Employment Relations Act coming in, while those of us on the other side of the House knew well enough that all we were doing was enacting a very mildly reforming piece of legislation that would do away, we hoped, with the worst excesses of the Employment Contracts Act era. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000229\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI think most people realise now that the fears of the right did not come to pass. As has been shown in practice, the Employment Relations Act has not even achieved some of the quite moderate goals for unions and workers that we had hoped for back in 2000. For example, I thought the Employment Relations Act would sort out the whole question of the right to collectively bargain, in that employers, under the concept of good faith, would have to seriously negotiate with workers and their representatives once the process was under way. I was quite naively surprised when union people began to tell me that some employers simply will not and do not negotiate, dragging things out for months, if not years. This is simply unacceptable, and certainly was not the intention of those of us who supported the Employment Relations Act. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000230\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhen this unwillingness to negotiate is combined with the decline in union membership, we begin to get some pretty shocking statistics coming through. For example, bargaining is shrinking in the private sector, whereby in 2002 to 2003 there was a 29 percent decline in employers who were party to a collective agreement. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000231\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI am delighted that the new bill before us today aims to ensure that some of the loopholes employers have found will be closed. Among other things, the concept of good faith is clarified and strengthened. Employers must bargain on all issues before them, and penalties and remedies are strengthened for serious breaches of good faith. Underpinning this, the bill makes explicit that the process of collective bargaining should result in a collective agreement, unless there is a genuine reason not to. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000232\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EAnother area of deep concern to us has been the question of freeloading. Again, like others who had worked hard to achieve the Employment Relations Act, I believed that the new Act would pave the way for a steadily increased unionisation of the workforce, and start to turn back the clock on the massive de-unionisation that happened in the 1990s. However, the reality has been quite different. As reported at this year\u2019s biennial conference of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions, in New Zealand we still have only 21.3 percent of workers covered by collective agreements. At the same time, 73.3 percent of the workforce overall remains un-unionised. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000233\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIn the private sector, things have become even worse since the introduction of the Employment Relations Act, and four out of the five largest unions in the private sector experienced a decline of membership in 2002. Only 12.4 percent of private sector workers are in unions, and out of a group of comparable countries, only the United States has a lower density of union membership than New Zealand. Those are telling figures. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000234\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EPart of the problem is that some employees continue to have an attitude entrenched in the Employment Contract Act 1990s that unions are simply bargaining agents. On top of this, a number of workers know that they can get the benefit of collective bargaining by unions anyway, so they do not even bother to join a union at all, riding free in perpetuity on the backs of those who do care enough to pay their weekly fees. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000235\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhile that may please people like Simon Power, Business New Zealand, and the rest of the ACT and National parties, it does not please those of us who believe that the only real way to address the ongoing imbalance of power between employer and employee is to maintain and develop strong, effective trade unions. The Green Party is therefore pleased that this bill will put in place at least some measures that will assist in discouraging employers from continuing to undermine unions by freely handing out the benefits of the collective in ways that actively encourage de-unionisation. However, we are concerned that the provisions aimed at stopping freeloading do not go far enough, and we will be working closely with unions during the course of this bill to see what can be done to strengthen this aspect of the legislation. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000236\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EA third area where we are particularly pleased with the new bill is around employment relationship problem resolution. We look forward, for example, to seeing mediation services being made more flexible, greater clarification around issues like what exactly constitutes unjustifiable dismissal in a personal grievance situation, and a greater focus on any settlements that result from mediation being directed towards applicants, rather than being a primary and ongoing source of income for a vast army of lawyers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000237\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFourthly, and perhaps the most significant issue for the Green Party in this review of the Employment Relations Act, is around what was called the transfer of undertakings when we were working on the Employment Relations Bill, and is now being called \u201Cprotecting employees\u2019 interests in change of employer situations\u201D. During the first Employment Relations Bill process, the Green Party fought really hard to try to keep the original protective clause 66 of that bill, but unfortunately at that time, Labour felt obliged to cave in to what looked to us like big-business pressure to withdraw that clause. Since then there have been several ministerial advisory groups working on this admittedly extremely complex issue. While it has taken a lot longer than we would have hoped, it is great that the Government has finally come back to the House with a bill that includes a solid framework for employment protection in restructuring situations where the legal ownership of a business changes and the same work is being undertaken by the new employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EProvision is now made in this bill for a two-tier system, with one lot of specific provisions providing a high level of guaranteed protection for categories of employees who are seen as particularly vulnerable, such as workers providing cleaning, catering, and laundry services, and with a second, lower level of protection being afforded across the board to all other employees who are not part of that first group, as defined in the bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000239\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EWhile at first glance this new framework may seem overly convoluted, I believe that after all the negotiation in this area that has gone on over the last 4 years, it is a well-worked compromise that goes a long way towards ensuring that in future, people will have far greater protection when a business changes hands, or work is contracted out. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000240\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party is committed to equal pay, and to equal pay for work of equal value\u2014pay equity. Although the Government has seen fit to update the equal-pay legislation in this bill and we are pleased to support some improvements such as increased penalties for non-compliance, we are very disappointed that it has not taken this opportunity to progress pay equity and begin the process to end wage discrimination in the workforce. With the Pay Equity Taskforce report due soon, we will be discussing with the Government how any recommendations from this committee can be incorporated into this bill. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000241\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EFinally, I would just like to touch on one particular aspect of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill about which the Green Party does have really grave concerns. This relates to clause 35, which inserts a new section 100D into the Employment Relations Act, and establishes a new procedure called the codes of employment practice. This new policy would allow the Minister of Labour to make codes about how the Act should be applied when industrial action is taken in the health sector. If this section of the bill is passed, the Minister of Health will be able to decide, after consultation, what limits should be put on strike action in the interests of health and safety in both the public and private sectors. This is an extraordinary measure to be undertaken by a Labour Government, particularly when one considers that private sector health employees will be affected. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000242\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI have only to think of nurses and other staff at the Redwood Lodge in Rotorua and their current dispute, where a private employer is putting high profit margins above the interests of very low-paid employees, to wonder what on earth the Government\u2019s intentions really are. Would it see the Minister of Health using section 100D to stop the Redwood workers striking for very moderate pay claims and improved staffing ratios? Will the Government seek to use this section to undermine the Nurses Organisation\u2019s well-known plans for an intensive campaign for fair pay in 2004? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000243\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Employment Relations Act already contains provisions that require hospital workers to give 14 days\u2019 notice of strike action, and includes provision for mediation during that time. There are also legal limits on strike action being taken at the beginning of bargaining. These restrictions already make it more difficult for health workers to go on strike than was the case during all the years of the Employment Contracts Act. Section 100D of this new bill gives the Minister unusual power during times of industrial action by health employees. As the Minister is also ultimately responsible for the funding of health pay settlements, this measure gives extraordinary control to someone who is both funder and de facto employer. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000244\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI know that nurses and other health professionals are not saying that they do not care about health and safety during strike action; rather they believe, as does the Green Party, that legislation already adequately covers the issue, and that voluntary codes of practice between employers and unions are a far better way forward than this kind of singular, legislative control. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000245\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Green Party does support the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill before us this afternoon, but I can assure workers and unions around New Zealand that we will be doing our best to improve this bill as it goes through the select committee process.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u0022f2db4a85db5c4b3a92ec27fa4a80504e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f2db4a85db5c4b3a92ec27fa4a80504e\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I rise on behalf of United Future to oppose this bill. We are not convinced that we need this bill. The Prime Minister told the Council of Trade Unions conference this year that opponents of the Employment Relations Act must be very disappointed that the legislation had been successful and a stabilising influence on employment relations. Business groups say that the reason the Employment Relations Act has not turned out as badly as they thought it would is that all the controversial parts were dumped. If the law is working so well now, then why does it need to be amended? The Government wants to review the Employment Relations Act because the law has not helped out its old mates, the unions, as much as it had hoped it would. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000247\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EAdvocates of the Employment Relations Act hoped that the union density\u2014that is, the proportion of unionised workers in the labour force\u2014would rise from the 17 percent it had sunk to under the Employment Contracts Act. According to a study by the Industrial Relations Centre at Victoria University, union membership has grown by around 10 percent in the past 3 years, but union density has remained virtually flat, at around 20 percent, since the mid-1990s. That stagnation has occurred despite the fact that under the Employment Relations Act, unions have been given the exclusive right to collective bargaining. As the old Employment Contracts Act agreements expired, workers either had to join an established union, form one of their own, or revert to individual agreements. Few employees have elected to join unions, and those who have done so joined unions formed of members in one workplace. They are not affiliated with the Council of Trade Unions and tend to be regarded sceptically by the union movement. It is probably not surprising that employees in the public sector are five times more likely to be collectivised than their private sector counterparts. Slightly over half of all trade union members are employed in the public service. So this bill is all about trying to increase the influence of the traditional unions beyond the public sector. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000248\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe unions claim that the reason they are not succeeding under the Employment Relations Act is that non-union employees free ride on the same terms and conditions secured by collective agreements. So this bill makes it a breach of good faith for employers to undermine collective bargaining if they pass on the same terms and conditions to non-union employees without presenting them with the opportunity to join a union. I think that in practice it will be very hard to establish whether an employer has undermined collective bargaining. Even the union leaders have said that the bill will not give them enough ammunition to stop freeloading. I wonder what would happen if an employer decided to pay non-union members more money than union members receive. He or she would be in trouble. That would be seen as an incentive for people not to join the union. That is the trouble when we get legalistic on this stuff. People need to be given a break and allowed to work, one with the other, as they negotiate things. So this clause is just a symbolic gesture to the Government\u2019s supporters. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000249\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EBut the bill does make it legal to give a bargaining bonus to members of a union. What wonderful words those are to a member of a union who negotiates a collective agreement. Can members remember when 6,902 Public Service Association members at the Inland Revenue Department, the Ministry of Social Development, and Land Information New Zealand received a total of almost $4.5 million in bonus payments for successfully negotiating a new collective agreement? At the time we knew that United Future and other parties in this House questioned whether that was a breach of section 9(1) of the Employment Relations Act, which prohibits preference on the basis of union membership. But only unions can negotiate collective agreements, so at the time the agreement is made the one-off nature of the bargaining bonus effectively restricts it to union members. The average bonus received, $712, would have covered each member\u2019s union fees for the year. How nice that was! Fonterra and the unions tried to do the opposite of that, and to get non-union workers to pay the fees of the union members because they had negotiated the collective employment agreement. But that has been challenged in court. The Minister must have been worried about the legality of the bargaining bonus for Public Service Association members, because now we have a new clause in this bill that amends section 9 of the principal Act, to state that it does not prevent a collective agreement from containing a term or condition that is intended to recognise the benefits of a collective agreement or the relationship upon which it is based. The Government knew that the bargaining bonus was dodgy, so now it is covering it up. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000250\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EI turn to what I think is the most contentious part of this bill, and that is the idea that in certain industries new business owners have to take on the staff of the old business. Even a political party does not have to take on the old staff if there is a change.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000251\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022330c030b-99be-4461-8aaa-9a10ee5bd889\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3a26db57b3f4d68988c47e5b407d218\u0022\u003EDavid Benson-Pope\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party does.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000252\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002239c1d39b16a74ec39d25059f37cf22eb\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: Not always. That is not true. Those who win a contract to provide a service will be forced to employ the staff of the outfit that lost the contract. People are people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000253\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d965975946d248ba86cd99fe6ab92517\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: That\u2019s a very good point. People are people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000254\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002215e0046e8f0d4aa999ad8893e0e984dc\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: That is a very good point. It was quite a revelation to the member.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000255\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271df41a749c849f38dd504eb2e33fcb5\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: You were quick off the mark. People are definitely people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000256\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00228eea52e194f544119c65582f4a8d7e7f\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS\u003C/span\u003E: I was; I realise that. I am pleased to inform the member of that. He can put it in his memory bank now, and he will be right. People are definitely people. Some have leadership ability, and some do not. Some are soft-hearted, and some are hard-hearted. Sometimes a business with a soft-hearted leader can go down the gurgler, whereas a new person can come in, take up the leadership responsibility, pick up the business, and take it on to greater heights. But, under this legislation, that person will not have the ability to deal with the business as it may need to be dealt with. He or she will be forced to employ the staff of the outfit that lost the contract. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000257\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EA new owner might have the chance to improve a failing company and take the business on, for the very reason that he or she can do it at a lower cost. Lumping the new owner with the old employees will create an additional cost, either in redundancy payments or in terms of a higher wage rate. What if the new owner has to make his or her own people redundant, in order to make way for the old crowd? That will happen, mark my words. This bill may make it impossible to sell a failing business. Instead, the employer may just close it down. Where will that leave the workers? What if the failure of the business was, in part, due to incompetent staff? The bill talks about making the best use of existing talents, but what if there was no existing talent? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000258\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003EThe decision to take on workers is one for a business to make. The Minister said in the House yesterday that skilled employees need to be seen as an asset of a business. But unlike plant and machinery, a new owner cannot sell staff and get a return. I would have thought that the whole idea of contracting out for services is that the entire assets of the business are transferable and able to be dispensed with entirely if the person paying for the service is not satisfied. The explanatory note of the bill claims that compliance costs to business are likely to be relatively insignificant, but anyone who takes on a new business or contract will have to factor into the price the increased cost of the liability of the old workers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000259\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E If we are to review the Employment Relations Act, let us put in the things that are really needed\u2014things like trying to stop employees from taking out unjustified dismissal claims when they are sacked, just so they can cut down the stand-down period before they collect the dole. What about John Tamihere\u2019s great idea? I can relate well to that man. He has a good head on his shoulders, and he understands the reality of the world that we live in. He has a great idea of allowing small businesses a 1-month probationary period to assess new employees, which he has been arguing for as part of the review of the Act. If those sorts of things were in this bill, then we might have something different to say, but we are not voting for this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022 data-id=\u00227e1e47cf37b64d9eae661cd5cf03e4c4\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000260\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e1e47cf37b64d9eae661cd5cf03e4c4\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E This bill splits the House into those political parties that are looking to the future and those that are looking to the past\u2014those political parties that want to support enterprise and a prosperous nation, versus those that want to prop up the dinosaurs. Sue Bradford was quite right when she said that this is a bill to re-unionise New Zealand. When New Zealand workers are faced with a choice, they do not want to be saddled with a dinosaur union, the head honchos of which do not look after the workers. Unions do not produce the wealth of New Zealand. Working New Zealanders understand that, and they are saying no, they will not pay their fees to a union that does not deliver. That does not satisfy Labour Party members, who like to have drinks with their mates in the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions and to discuss the brave new world. The New Zealand Council of Trade Unions cannot sign up members, so the Labour Party, aided by the Greens, told it not to worry, because Labour would put a bill into the House that would force people into the hands of the council. Labour has done that because the one thing this Government cannot do in the private sector is what it did in the State sector: pay people to be members of the union. That is what happened in New Zealand. This bill is about supporting dinosaur unions to shackle enterprise in New Zealand, and the ability of New Zealanders to go ahead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000261\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EClause 8 shows that this Labour Government is given over to spin and dissimulation. I know that the Minister of Defence does not know what that word means, let alone how to spell it, but I cannot use the appropriate word here in the House that one would use in common parlance. Millions of dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money have been paid to civil servants for joining the union\u2014true or false? It is a true story. In fact, in the civil service it is called compensation for joining the union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000262\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7ba5fd9dbf04eab8eec0574bfd9ab91\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Compensation?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000263\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d5bcaf7cd1e74c33adb0bda37de38561\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Yes, it is the payment of civil servants\u2019 union fees. They get $400, $700, up to $1,000, and, in some cases, as much as $1,200 simply for joining the Public Service Association. Is that true or false? It is a true story. It happened in the Inland Revenue Department, in Work and Income, in the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, and in two or three other Government departments. That is clearly illegal under section 9 of the current Act, because it discriminates against workers who are not members of the union. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000264\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Minister of State Services came down here to the House and said those payments were all legal and consistent with the Employment Relations Act. Yet every employment lawyer that I spoke to said that the Minister was talking through a hole in his head, unconnected to his brain.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000265\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226e675bc7b8464b848281a33a9a1a946f\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Not an easy thing to do.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000266\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221915f59e944144a48633016ca9f300c0\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: If one is Trevor Mallard it is very easy. The member does that every day, without even thinking about it. Members should just ask the teachers and the parents of New Zealand. In fact, the member\u2019s mouth is so unconnected to his brain that he got a psychologist in the Ministry of Education to write to all the schools of New Zealand, saying they should not allow their children to come along and heckle him, because that made him look bad. That is what he did; Trevor Mallard was scared of school pupils. Trevor Mallard stood up in this House and said no, those payments were quite consistent with the Employment Relations Act, and that there was no problem. Our State Services Commissioner, who is paid over $400,000 a year\u2014New Zealand\u2019s top civil servant\u2014said that the payments were all within the law, and he had no problem with them. But the State Services Commissioner took his direction from the Minister of State Services, Trevor Mallard, the bully boy of New Zealand politics, and he was scared of getting the boot. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000267\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThen, suddenly, we see in this bill that section 9(1) of the Act is to be changed. Clause 8 states that the following subsection will be added to section 9: \u201C(3) To avoid doubt, this Act does not prevent a collective agreement containing a term or condition that is intended to recognise the benefits\u2014(a) of a collective agreement: (b) arising out of the relationship on which a collective agreement is based.\u201D The Government had to do that because it has been handing across millions of dollars of taxpayers\u2019 money straight to its mates at the Public Service Association. It goes to the workers first\u2014all they have to do is to sign a little form that sets up an automatic payment to the Public Service Association. Therefore, taxpayers have had to pay money to the health system, to the education system, and to the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry for border security\u2014to all those things\u2014not for services but to pay for a Public Service Association that civil servants themselves would not sign up to unless they were paid for doing so. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000268\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EHow useless a union is that? People do not want to join the Public Service Association. They want to join it only when they are paid to do so. They have to be subsidised and, on top of that, paid to join it. Is it any wonder, then, that the number of civil servants who are signed up with the Public Service Association is growing, yet in the private sector union membership lags well behind that rate? Is it not clear from this bill that what was being done was illegal? If it had been legal we would not need to change the Act, would we?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000269\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221ceb86daee80432b8bea8aa7a45f251e\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: We would not need the new clause.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000270\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e5b085c7fece4dfabd718e90b95555b2\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: We would not need the new clause\u2014the one that Trevor Mallard said we did not need because the payments were legal. Our top civil servant, the State Services Commissioner, Michael Wintringham, said the payments were legal, but now we have to change the Act in order to remove any doubt. Well, Dr Don Brash of the National Party said the payments were illegal, Rodney Hide of ACT said they were illegal, the United Future party said they were illegal, and now the Labour Party agrees with us on that, because the Government is changing the Act. Yet Labour is just not big enough to agree with us that the payments were illegal. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000271\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThe Labour Government does not understand what it is that drives up wages. Why is it that we are now paid more than our grandfathers and grandmothers were paid 50, 60, or 70 years ago? Labour members think that is because of the union movement. No, I am sorry to say it is because we are more productive. We have been invested in, in terms of plant and capital, and we can produce more. We no longer use shovels; we use hydraulic loaders and the like. Being invested in makes us more productive. Michael Joseph Savage understood that. It is investment that drives up wages and conditions, not the unions. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000272\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003EThere is one final thing that this Government does not understand, and this has also been alluded to by other speakers. Let us imagine that a person is contracted to a business, and is making a hash of it. If another contractor comes along who is much more efficient, the efficient contractor may compete for the business and win it. Is that not the way that the capitalist system works, when a contractor is not up to scratch? But this bill requires the successful contractor to take over the unsuccessful contractor\u2019s workers, on the same terms and conditions that they already had. What is the point of that? It disadvantages the efficient workers and the efficient contractor, to the benefit of the inefficient ones. Is that a picture of the sort of economy that this Labour Government wants? I do not think so. But Labour is so held in the sway of its 19th century view of the workplace\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000273\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c437bda8-4741-4ac5-89ab-b0818e1ab9fa\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022dfc9b8ef22754db7abb9871bde316f79\u0022\u003EDarren Hughes\u003C/span\u003E: The 20th century!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000274\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226247e6a0281646b2be12b84fc5e88c19\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I tell Darren Hughes it is a 19th century view\u2014and is so held in the sway of its union mates in the Council of Trade Unions\u2014[Interruption] \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000275\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c186d0a2-99f4-408b-9b4d-d484cf19724d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022438a8c6a6d084e6281c63ddbac68fd41\u0022\u003EHon Lianne Dalziel\u003C/span\u003E: The ACT party\u2014the Flat Earth Society\u2014I mean, it\u2019s a dinosaur!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000276\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c3644c330be542c7ab41cfff8844b9df\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: Is that not great? The Minister of Immigration calls out that the ACT party, which believes in low taxes and a free labour market, is the Flat Earth Society. But over there on the Government benches, supporting the dinosaur unions in New Zealand is somehow\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000277\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227436f79907841bd87a99faed319fad6\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member\u2019s time has expired. I call Winnie Laban.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000278\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223848863a59d544a1b8ef04e5c4ccb358\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am going to respond to those points.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000279\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00229561d81af58147f6a553490d60b856cb\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000280\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243674e2aa29a42eeb0768b5954cc0773\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: OK then.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000281\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022095fd2720318461abc3506109a17df86\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will sit down in future when his time has expired. I call Winnie Laban.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000282\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002278a828e9e8954f089f2352ced92e6e4f\u0022\u003ERODNEY HIDE\u003C/span\u003E: I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I will sit down when my time has expired, as I always do. But I also expect that if someone yells out right at the end of my time and thinks he or she can get a free hit, that will not succeed, particularly when it comes from the Minister of Immigration, who is making a complete hash of her portfolios and now thinks she is an expert in the labour market.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000283\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002270ea7af9014a462ab17647c99de05e58\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: The member will be seated. That is not a matter for a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022 data-id=\u0022fce8b7b1f63842debcc30a57df4b8f61\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000284\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002279f87abf-aaab-44ff-96db-2e33d763670a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fce8b7b1f63842debcc30a57df4b8f61\u0022\u003ELUAMANUVAO WINNIE LABAN (Labour\u2014Mana):\u003C/span\u003E Kia ora, talofa lava, and warm Pacific greetings. I am very, very proud to be a member of this Government. New Zealand is in good economic heart, and it is a very fair and decent society. The principles behind the employment relations legislation are about participation, opportunity, dignity, and fairness. I am very proud to stand and support this legislation, especially the change-of-employer situations. Special protection will be given to specific groups of employees who are particularly vulnerable in change-of-employer situations and who lack effective bargaining power, such as our cleaners and our food service employees. These employees, finally, will be treated with some dignity. They will have the right to choose to transfer to a new employer on their current terms and conditions of employment. I am so proud of that clause, and we need to say thank you to and acknowledge not only the employers and the business people but the workers and the unions who all contribute to a strong economy and a decent society with a heart. Other employees will also be given protection, through a requirement for their employment agreements to contain an employee protection provision. I thank the Minister of Labour, the Service and Food Workers Union, the employers, and our New Zealand society.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u00226c57c688d6df4964ac5c11ce6c33f872\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000285\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00226c57c688d6df4964ac5c11ce6c33f872\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E I remember vividly sitting in this House when the Employment Relations Bill was passed. I remember the Hon Lianne Dalziel leaping to her feet and applauding and hugging, as I recall, on that day when the Employment Relations Bill was passed. I remember members on this side of the House saying at the time that that piece of legislation was flawed, and that it would not be the last time we saw the legislation come back to the House for further amendment. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000286\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EUpon the beginning of the first reading of the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill I consulted the Clerk about how many amendments there have been to the Employment Relations Act since it came into force in the year 2000. As predicted by members on this side, it is an imperfect piece of legislation. [Interruption] Mr Hide will be interested to know that this is the twelfth amendment to the Employment Relations Act, signalling what we on this side of the House knew all along\u2014that is, that the original Act was never going to work.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000287\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E Part of the reason that the House is being required to look at this bill today is precisely the reason that Mr Hide made out\u2014that is, workers have not chosen to flock back to the unions with the passing of the Employment Relations Act. Workers have decided that other bargaining agents, including, funnily enough, themselves, are capable of negotiating agreements with their employers. Union membership has not increased in the way that the Council of Trade Unions and other unions would like. That is because this country has grown up, and employees and employers are able to sit in a room together and make constructive decisions and agreements about how their working relationships are to be conducted. That has not made the Government\u2019s backers happy, at all. That is why we are seeing this piece of legislation in the House today. It is another step on the line back to compulsory unionism. Who does one push out there to sell this to business? Good old Margaret Wilson will step up to the plate and take the employers on. She is a list MP. It does not matter to her. She has no constituents to answer to, and she is capable of being pushed out there by the Prime Minister to sell these very unpopular measures when workers themselves have chosen not to go back to the unions. That is telling in itself. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000288\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI want to spend a little bit of time looking at some of the detail of this bill. I find myself not saying this easily, but I will, anyway\u2014I actually agree with Sue Bradford. That is disturbing on many levels, but on the first level is the fact that what Sue Bradford said about the fact that the only people who will benefit from this piece of legislation are lawyers is exactly right\u2014so there is some good in it! Lawyers will be the only people who benefit from this legislation. Let me just take Government members through as to why that is the case. Whilst members opposite try to pass legislation that will allow for continuity of employment, let me just tell members opposite how the sale and purchase of businesses works. Usually, on a sale and a purchase agreement for a business, the purchaser and vendor would agree, by way of a clause inserted in that agreement, as to how they would deal with employees at the point of sale. I have to say that in my time in drafting those documents and being involved in those transactions, 95 percent of staff passed with the business to the new purchaser. There was never any problem with that. What we will see now, with the provisions in this legislation, is lawyers inserting a different clause. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000289\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI just say to Winnie Laban, whose goodwill and genuine interest in these matters I have never doubted, that what will happen is this: a new clause will be inserted by lawyers in the sale and purchase of business agreements, and that will be to liquidate and to wind up the businesses at the point of sale, and a new business will be formed on the date that the settlement of the sale of that agreement occurs, and that will be designed purely to get around the provisions of the legislation that is just about to be enacted. Whilst members opposite might think that the intentions are good, let me just assure them that there will always be ways around these types of things. When people start to insert clauses like that into sale and purchase agreements for businesses, who misses out? The workers miss out when those sorts of businesses and those sorts of clauses are included in those agreements. I have to say that when parties to a contract are forced to include clauses or legislation that are being moved by the Labour Party now, the tighter the fist gets clenched around that contract, the more it will squeeze clauses out the other end to deal with these issues. I warn members opposite that the people who will suffer as a result of these new clauses being included in agreements like this will be the workers. It might not be the unions, but it will be the workers. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000290\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI want members opposite to think about this. Margaret Wilson said in her press release about this bill coming to the House that there would be no return to compulsory unionism, compulsory arbitration, or the national awards system. She said: \u201CThe approach remains one of free choice, flexibility, and fairness to all.\u201D She then went on to say: \u201Cwill provide appropriate incentives for collective bargaining.\u201D How, on the one hand, can Margaret Wilson talk about the fact that there is free choice around entering into these employment relationships and, on the other hand, in the purposes clauses of this bill blatantly say: \u201CThis legislative proposal will provide appropriate incentives for collective bargaining.\u201D Where is the free choice there? There is no free choice there. Incentives do just as they sound, and will drive workers into a situation where they are not able to exercise free choice at the point of employment. I was unaware, until Paul Adams mentioned it, that John Tamihere was in favour of a grievance-free period at the start of an employment relationship. I have to say that I agree with John Tamihere on that, because it is those types of clauses that encourage businesses to employ immigrants, young people, and people over 55, and to give them a trial. Those types of clauses give people the first step into the workplace to see whether they are any good\u2014they give them an opportunity they would not otherwise get. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000291\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe thing about employment law from this Government that makes me really wild is that it may or may not, depending on one\u2019s interpretation, do things to protect workers who currently have jobs, but what about those workers who are looking for jobs? What about those workers who have not yet got jobs? This legislation does nothing at all for those people. I say to members opposite that this legislation will be nothing but trouble. We will know how successful this legislation has been when, 6 months after it is introduced, we see a whole lot more Mercedes-Benz cars on the roads, and we will know what is going on there. It will not be the workers driving them; it will be the lawyers. This legislation will create so much controversy and so much disruption in the workplace that only one group of workers will benefit from it, and that will be the lawyers. Members opposite should think closely and carefully about what they continue to do to the ability of two adult people to contract at a point on arrangements and terms that suit them both. Call me old-fashioned, but, actually, the union is not a party to an employment agreement.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022 data-id=\u00221dbc7f0f39ae4672b9ffa30c28f87d68\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000292\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002272e48ab0-e7ae-427f-bedc-793b7a91adba\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221dbc7f0f39ae4672b9ffa30c28f87d68\u0022\u003EHon MARK BURTON (Minister of Defence):\u003C/span\u003E In response to that member, I remind him of one thing. The unemployment figure in this country is the lowest that it has been in a generation. That is the result of this Government\u2019s policies. I read for the member a portion of the explanatory note: \u201CFair and productive employment relationships are an essential ingredient in developing a more innovative economy while protecting the more vulnerable in society.\u201D That is what this bill is about. That is why I am proud to support it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022 data-id=\u00225954212863ee471b9ac00857430ba3ec\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000293\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00225954212863ee471b9ac00857430ba3ec\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY (National\u2014Helensville):\u003C/span\u003E There is very little indeed that is more blatant than this bill. This bill is designed for one reason alone and absolutely nobody in this country should be under any illusion what that reason is. This bill is all about building union membership. That is what it is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000294\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EThe Government has put out Margaret Wilson as the Trojan Horse to build union membership, for one reason alone: union membership stands at only 12 percent in this country, and the unions are not happy. The Government caucus is full of union representatives, and they have looked at the numbers. They had their first shot when they restructured the Employment Contracts Act, but they have said that that was not good enough, that they should bump up the numbers and build up the union movement in this country, and that one way to do that is to get Margaret Wilson to restructure the Employment Relations Act. That is what the Government is doing today\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000295\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b2adb9b941124b329777d23c25f0fc03\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: For the 12th time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000296\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002247ec2d1117054cf8adab4cf8ea0a4157\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: It is a disgrace. The Government is doing this to build up the unions so that they can get more fees to prop up what is nothing more than an ailing Government that is about to get booted out in 18 months\u2019 time. Government members might laugh, but we will see who has the last laugh when employers get a load of this claptrap.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000297\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EWhen Margaret Wilson tabled this bill in the House she said she was just as concerned for the 80-odd percent who are not covered by a collective agreement. She was concerned all right\u2014she was concerned about how she could get them on a collective agreement! That is her agenda. That is where we are going with this legislation. It is absolutely no different from what we saw last night, when Trevor Mallard introduced the State Sector Amendment Bill, and, with all the arrogance of this Government, delivered the same bully-boy tactics that the Government is using to try to push through this legislation. I simply have this to say to Margaret Wilson: if this was the moon\u2014and, frankly, sometimes I wonder what planet Margaret Wilson comes from\u2014and Margaret Wilson was the first woman to walk on the moon, as Neil Armstrong was the first man to do that 34 years ago, as she was planting the New Zealand flag on the moon she would simply say: \u201COne small step for the employee; one giant leap for the unions.\u201D That is what this bill is about.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000298\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EInch by inch this Government will drag us back to the 1970s and the 1980s. They were not happy times in industrial relations in this country. I may be young enough still to have my youthful looks, but I remember the days of strikes at Kawerau and Kinleith. I remember the days when productivity was driven down to the point where New Zealand had a growth rate of half a percent because the unions held this country to ransom. No one should forget about that. I remember the days when the inter-island ferries did not operate because people were on strike due to there being no chocolate biscuits. That is what the unions did for those people, and GDP grew at half a percent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000299\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022377da417f36c406cb6d17631b7030acf\u0022\u003ESimon Power\u003C/span\u003E: Cold meat pies.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000300\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c7cf1766c3474895b56e067c625494dd\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: And no chocky biscuits. The ferries were on strike and no one went anywhere. The strikes always happened around Christmas and Easter. There was no respite for those New Zealanders who wanted to go on holiday, because the ferries went on strike. Inch by inch, that is where we are heading with a bill that is designed to give the unions more power and be very, very harsh indeed on employers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000301\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E I simply ask what that will do for job creation in this country. What will that do for small businesses when they want to take on new staff? What will that do for the most vulnerable workers, whom Labour Party members argue so wilfully they are there to represent? Absolutely nothing! This is robbing the food off their table\u2014make no mistake about that. The very people who will be affected by this bill will give absolutely no thanks at all to this hapless Labour Government.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000302\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EYesterday the OECD produced its 159-page report on New Zealand. It released its report, and had these words to say about the labour market. I hope the Minister of Labour is paying attention.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000303\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022bc1e9f65-e08b-4939-867c-22ef093e2a4e\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ede6df113ddc465181a30eb0dec0fc92\u0022\u003ERodney Hide\u003C/span\u003E: The OECD is a right-wing plot according to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000304\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022bcab5fd0f4cd4aefad2783189ba4ec51\u0022\u003EJOHN KEY\u003C/span\u003E: A right-wing plot it may be, but it said that labour market flexibility should be preserved. That was the report\u2019s opening line. The next line was: \u201CIn recent years there has been a clear trend towards greater rigidities, higher labour costs, and there are further such changes in the pipeline.\u201D If members want to deliver\u2014[Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000305\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003ELet me take the member up on that. Yes, unemployment is low. The OECD said that unemployment is low and growth is high, solely because of the policies of the 1980s and the 1990s, and absolutely nothing that this Government has done has encouraged that\u2014not one thing. It has increased taxes, increased compliance costs, and increased rigidity in the labour market. The OECD said that growth in New Zealand per capita is going down. Make no mistake about it: we are talking about a basket-case economy if we leave this hapless Labour Government in office for too long. So Labour members should not be too smug about it. A low exchange rate, competitive prices, and a whole lot of migration do not make them magicians. Even if they believe their own press releases, it does not work that way, because the OECD is a bit smarter than their press releases, and it has worked out what is going on in New Zealand, and it is bad, bad news.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000306\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EI want to look at some of the particular parts of this bill, because they are very disturbing indeed, and employers will be very concerned about their provisions\u2014in particular, the issue related to collective bargaining. One of the provisions requires an employer to attend at least one meeting when a multi-employer contract agreement is to be reached. It sounds innocuous enough, but when it is tied to the good-faith provision, I think it is very important that people understand exactly what \u201Cgood faith\u201D means in this legislation. \u201CGood faith\u201D, in the bill, means that parties bargaining for collective arrangements must attend at least one meeting, unless there is a genuine reason not to do so. Parties to good-faith arrangements are to be \u201Cresponsive, communicative, and supportive\u201D.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000307\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EIt is, as my colleague Mr Simon Power said, nothing short of a bonanza for lawyers. This is not the kind of legislation that will make employment relations go forward. It is a bonanza for lawyers, and those wealthy and highly paid lawyers in Queen Street are licking their chops as this Labour Government delivers them a complete mishmash of legislation that will drive New Zealand back to the 1970s. One of those lawyers, the very esteemed Rob Towner, a partner at Bell Gully and a specialist in employment law, at least had the guts to say this: \u201CThere is nothing to suggest that the employer has discharged its obligations by simply going to the first meeting. They will be held around the table to negotiate a whole lot of collective arrangements, even if it makes no sense for them to be there, for fear of being fined.\u201D Individuals and companies will be whacked with a $5,000 to $10,000 fine if they are seen to be in breach of their good-faith arrangements. So this bill will do nothing for growth in New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000308\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EBefore my time expires I want to touch finally on the issue of business restructuring. It is important to understand the provisions for business restructuring, because they are very important indeed. They will do one thing and one thing alone for businesses in New Zealand, and that is not grow them. So while Labour members are out there telling the people of New Zealand that they have their innovation and growth strategy, I suggest they get it out of the bottom drawer, along with their credit card, dust them off, and have a look at what they were telling the people of New Zealand while they were trying to bluff their way into office. It was not listed on that credit card that they would make goodwill evaporate in businesses up and down the country, but that is what this employment relations bill is going to do. Government members, as I stand here today, are very quiet because they know, as I know, that this is a terrible step back for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000309\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220083bcaa-f44d-4b70-97de-d091a209b88c\u0022\u003EEarlier, someone mentioned the position of union membership in the United States of America. Let me just tell members that every man, woman, and child in America has a standard of living almost double that of people in New Zealand, and if this Government or any Government wants to deliver a Christmas present to the people of New Zealand, then it should give them more money and more opportunity, but it should not give them this rubbish that has been designed in a bathroom somewhere in this fair building.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00227e5c4649d7294e278654e376028baf84\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000310\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00227e5c4649d7294e278654e376028baf84\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I always love it when we have debates in this House about industrial relations, because they show how far removed the National Party is from reality. National members should get out and see the real world during their 4 or 5 weeks\u2019 holiday\u2014and they will vote against that bill, as well. Last night, in the debate on the Education (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill, which we are going to go onto again in a moment, Simon Power, who spoke just before, was actually advocating paying striking workers. It just goes to show how removed National members are from reality out there in the real workplace. They are only ever used to being the masters in master-servant relationships. They would not have a clue what it is like in a role reversal. This is a very good bill. It is good for vulnerable workers. Let us get on and do the best we can for them and get it passed quickly.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022 data-id=\u00220a32c880a1cb45af9b6aaf36ae8a3d97\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000311\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fae7af0d-c48d-4dd4-88f3-928ccaa3a984\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00220a32c880a1cb45af9b6aaf36ae8a3d97\u0022\u003EMadam DEPUTY SPEAKER\u003C/span\u003E: There will be no comment from the gallery.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u0022f672d332f2c04f83be59c7fbea72b03e\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Employment Relations Law Reform Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 76\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 44\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000312\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u0022b8f352b005b7493fa928a92283f620ea\u0022\u003EEducation (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000313\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022ec06a4a7befe4c6795a9ee4b14a23dc0\u0022\u003EFirst Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000314\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 10 December.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022 data-id=\u0022961692f5e63943baac06790ca527ecb1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000315\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022961692f5e63943baac06790ca527ecb1\u0022\u003EDEBORAH CODDINGTON (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E I will continue the ACT party\u2019s opposition to this amendment bill, which brings in an education levy. It is being brought in to punish all private providers of English language education, all private providers of tertiary education. Why has the Government seen fit to bring it in? It is mainly because of two organisations that failed, the Modern Age Institute of Learning and, latterly, Carich New Zealand. If we look at the Modern Age Institute of Learning to see why it failed, we see that it did not fail because of all the other private providers; they had absolutely nothing to do with the failure of those two institutions, yet they will now be forced to take responsibility for them and for any other private institution that fails.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000316\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThe New Zealand Qualifications Authority had already identified that the Modern Age Institute of Learning had serious problems, but the Qualifications Authority did nothing. It just sat on its hands and let it carry on. It saw that courses were being run without Qualifications Authority approval, and it did nothing. It saw that trust accounts were not being operated properly, and it did nothing until it was too late. Then it decided that the institute\u2019s failure was a good excuse to bring in another tax\u2014and this Government calls a tax a levy. The Qualifications Authority requirements were not met, and the Serious Fraud Office has now been asked to investigate. It did not need to get to that stage; the Minister could have called the Qualifications Authority officials into his office and asked them what on earth was going on and why the situation was allowed to continue.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000317\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003ETo compound the situation and make it even worse, when the Modern Age Institute of Learning failed, the Minister of Education immediately decided that he would bail out the students. He was about to depart for China on a spin-doctoring, damage control mission, and wanted to take good news with him. He did not have to do that; the State did not have to step in, bail out those students, then recover the amount from the private sector, because an insurance company had covered those students and would have bailed them out. The State stepped in and let the company off the hook. It just shows the folly of Government interfering in the private sector, and how clumsy it is. The Government is now trying to redress that situation, but it should not have acted so precipitously. Other private providers, acting out of goodwill, moved to look after those students. No one wanted them out on the street if their home-stays kicked them out, but that never was in danger of happening.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000318\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EOn that note I notice that New Zealand First spoke against this bill. I would suggest that party, which has been fanning the anti-Asian sentiment, has to take some responsibility for what has been happening with these private providers of English language training. I just take an example of a Vietnamese home-stay girl whom I had, a student, who came home one day and said: \u201CWhat is meant by this word \u2018bleeping Asians\u2019?\u201D. I suggest that if there were English students crowding up and down Queen Street, people would not even notice, or they would say how wonderful it was. The anti-Asian, racist sentiment is contributing to a dip in our export education.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000319\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022cb5e591b-8ffc-4539-a900-1ee22224f7d7\u0022\u003EThis levy goes on all private providers, to cover up for the unscrupulous behaviour of a few. There is no equivalent levy being placed on public providers to cover situations when their English language schools or their general operations run into financial difficulties. The cost was $40 million for one polytechnic, and, altogether, $100 million of taxpayers\u2019 money has been used to bail out polytechnics. This measure is sending a message of similar morality to the private providers.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022 data-id=\u0022a202e9d78a4945d2a760d57a49893c9a\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000320\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a202e9d78a4945d2a760d57a49893c9a\u0022\u003EMETIRIA TUREI (Green):\u003C/span\u003E The Green Party will be supporting this bill to the select committee. We are taking a position consistent with our original support for the first bill, which enabled a levy on private providers and the export education industry. We consider it appropriate that there be such a levy. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000321\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe are interested in hearing from submitters the various issues that are raised around the activities of the industry, and the attempts that industry is making to ensure that it protects the students for whom it charges fees and things. We are also interested in finding out whether the levy is performing the functions\u2014and providing the protections\u2014for the students that it was originally intended to do. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000322\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022fc8ab326-1806-41d3-8c41-cd58c95dcb45\u0022\u003EWe do not consider it unscrupulous behaviour on the part of those companies that have failed, but rather an unfortunate consequence of being involved in an industry such as this. We look forward to hearing from those companies, and from those who remain successful, about the nature of the export education levy and its effects on them. We will be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022 data-id=\u0022fcb7e875c0ab4c08bd2085070b9f6bf9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000323\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022fcb7e875c0ab4c08bd2085070b9f6bf9\u0022\u003EPANSY WONG (National):\u003C/span\u003E According to Trevor Mallard, who is bringing in this bill, international students would have more confidence in New Zealand\u2019s export education sector by paying more tax. Then private educational providers were made to collect this additional tax as a reminder of Labour\u2019s loathing of private enterprise. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000324\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIt is a move that would push international students into State schools. We have already seen State schools\u2019 enrolment increase for 2004, probably at the expense of private providers. Our State schools have come to rely more and more on international students because funding for education has been channelled into bureaucracy. In the past 2 years, funding for bureaucracy in the education sector has increased by 50 percent, while schools are crying out for more resources. Schools are put on a compulsory diet while bureaucracy fattens. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000325\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ELabour would argue that the additional tax imposed on international students could be justified on the grounds of user-pays. So let us examine then whether these users are getting good value for paying the existing tax of $183 per person, plus 0.45 percent of their fees. This provides them with the reassurance that the institutions they enrol with are accredited with the New Zealand Qualifications Authority, that institutions are monitored, that any necessary follow-up actions will be swift and effective, that trust accounts will be kept for prepaid tuition fees and accommodation funds, and that the standard of qualifications will be high. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000326\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EWell, the failure of Carich Training Centre alone illustrates that reality is falling far short of expectation. Apparently, all tuition fees were to be paid into a trust account for the first week of enrolment, because students were entitled to a refund if they withdrew from that institution in the first week. However, I have in my hands a bank transfer form that clearly demonstrates that tuition fees were paid directly into Carich\u2019s Visa account, rather than into a trust account. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000327\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThat reminds me of the trust account at the failed Modern Age Institute of Learning. There was no money left in the trust account when that institution collapsed. Incidentally, the New Zealand Qualifications Authority had done two quality audits at the institute, and as late as May of this year\u2014just 2 months before that institution went into liquidation\u2014had obtained a reassurance from its accountant that the trust account was operating satisfactorily. It was hardly in the interests of the accountant, an employee of the Modern Age Institute of Learning, to tell the New Zealand Qualifications Authority that the accounts were not in order. How trusting! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000328\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EI was approached by former Christchurch Carich students who found out that they could not enrol at Christchurch Polytechnic because the equivalent computing course offered by Carich was not compatible with the standards required by the polytechnic. Did Carich have the accreditation to offer that course? If so, does the New Zealand Qualifications Authority apply the same standard of accreditation to all institutions? The Auckland Carich students could not get a firm answer from either the New Zealand Qualifications Authority or the insurance company, Contractors Bonding Ltd, as to whether they could obtain refunds from the insurance cover. They did not even have access to a copy of the insurance cover, and I have still not managed to get the insurers to send me one. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000329\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThis is a system of user-pays where the users have absolutely no say as to which alternative provider they can go to. The insurance company calls the shots. Some students went to an institution approved by the New Zealand Qualifications Authority and ended up sitting in classrooms without computers for 2 weeks. Some went to another institution and then got a letter from that institution asking them to make up the shortfall from the insurance company. That is why there have been reports of students being auctioned to the cheapest provider. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000330\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EOn the topic of Carich, I have in my hand photos of the Minister for Information Technology, the Hon Paul Swain, at the opening of the purpose-built Carich international students campus in the heart of Auckland on 30 May this year. Labour Ministers do love photo opportunities, do they not? When Carich was in obvious trouble 5 months later, the Hon Paul Swain was nowhere to be seen. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000331\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EThe lip service paid by Labour to export education is obvious when one reflects on the different treatments of other export industries. Our largest export industry is dairy, earning $6.4 billion, followed by tourism at $6.1 billion, forestry at $3.4 billion, with export education coming in at $1.7 billion. The Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry administers 98 pieces of legislation, and over 100 regulations to go with them. Tourism New Zealand got its own dedicated legislation. In the 2002 year, the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry spent $68 million on enforcement and industry monitoring, and a further $82 million on biosecurity. Tourism New Zealand had a budget of $58 million. The Government appropriated an additional $15 million to target the US market and earmarked $34 million for the America\u2019s Cup challenge. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000332\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003EIn order to maintain our reputation, we pay so much attention to ensuring that a single can of export beef reaches a high standard before it leaves this country, yet when it comes to export education, Labour is callous and careless in ensuring the well-being of our young people, mainly from Asia. Not only do those international students have to pay for the systems of monitoring and follow-up, they also have to pay more when the system fails. They have no say in paying higher taxes and no control over how that money is spent. When this Government and its officials fail, they blame the private training institutions. They make successful institutions collect extra tax to bail out the Government. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000333\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002280b11f68-6b57-4b8b-8922-aecd1d471975\u0022\u003ETrevor Mallard\u2019s so-called charm offensive trip to China this year was a disgrace. Mr Mallard was quoted in the Chinese media as saying that New Zealand did not want that many students anyway. I wonder why taxpayers wasted their money in funding his trip to China when he is trying to convince the Chinese not to send students over here. If Helen Clark is serious about holding individuals accountable, she should remove Trevor Mallard from the export education portfolio and give it to someone who cares and can provide leadership. Passing legislation to tax international students studying in private training establishments because of the failings of her Minister and officials is totally unacceptable. The National Party will certainly not support this legislation, which is a total outrage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022 data-id=\u00224a5148c3e2434921a5c48486d9618ea5\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000334\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00229df41e27-6082-4bc7-9fda-bab499cb9246\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224a5148c3e2434921a5c48486d9618ea5\u0022\u003EHELEN DUNCAN (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I support this excellent bill, which will correct a very difficult situation for New Zealand.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u0022a80acc7b94f34ab1adfc50d3b7e9f246\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000335\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a80acc7b94f34ab1adfc50d3b7e9f246\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E I too join with my colleague Helen Duncan, and all other Labour and Progressive colleagues, in supporting this bill. We should get on and get it passed. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022 data-id=\u0022dc1519a9d3c04de1ac8b8d2e4c02f13e\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000336\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002212f01718-dc1f-4307-b0b3-451098ab73df\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022dc1519a9d3c04de1ac8b8d2e4c02f13e\u0022\u003EDr ASHRAF CHOUDHARY (Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I take this opportunity to support this bill, along with my colleagues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca id=\u00229297af993bab40358f5df6e7c7781884\u0022 name=\u0022division\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Education (Export Education Levy) Amendment Bill be now read a first time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 63\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; Green Party 9; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 57\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 8; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EA party vote was called for on the question, That the Families Commission Bill be now read a third time. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EAyes 62\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand Labour 52; United Future 8; Progressive 2.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENoes 56\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003ENew Zealand National 27; New Zealand First 13; Green Party 8; ACT New Zealand 7; Independent: Awatere Huata.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp class=\u0022HpsDivision\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsItem\u0022\u003EBill read a third time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000337\u0022\u003EBill read a first time, and referred to the Education and Science Committee.\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000338\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u00226ee7fd16711e408ebd820466504eb9aa\u0022\u003EFamilies Commission Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000339\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u0022aac49367102b43be93f7acf0f60c461f\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000340\u0022\u003EDebate resumed from 9 December 2003.\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u0022700b1b8d964f42c79d2ded6eef23d720\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000341\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022700b1b8d964f42c79d2ded6eef23d720\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E There are a couple of issues that I want to cover today in relation to the Families Commission Bill. I am in a generous mood today, because the sky is bright, the sun is shining, and I am a National Party MP, and boy, am I proud of it! One of the things I will say to the people of New Zealand today is that I can save them $28 million, because I can tell them what children need. It is nice that United Future members are in the House to listen, because they are the ones who are so keen on spending $28 million. I will give it to New Zealanders for nothing: children need love. They need care, they need commitment, they need education, they need health, they need boundaries, and they need discipline. They need to know their whakapapa. They need to know who their father is and who their mother is. They need to know that they belong, and most of all, they need, wherever possible, two great parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000342\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ETwo parents will do a better job any day than one great parent. Two great parents will do a better job any day than one not particularly great parent, and the new partner that he or she has this week. It is about time that we acknowledged it. We do not need $28 million being spent on a bureaucracy so that United Future MPs will have a job to go to after the next election, just to prove that. This bill does not acknowledge anywhere that two great parents are better than one great parent. Nowhere does it acknowledge that children need, and should have, whenever possible, two great, committed parents. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000343\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EThe Lancet\u2014the journal of the British Medical Association\u2014has recently published a Swedish study. Sweden is one of those very liberal countries that are held up to us by the great feminist leader whom we have at the moment in New Zealand. That particular country is a very liberal country, and it is now starting to look at what its liberal views are doing to its children. Researchers studied one million children for a decade\u2014not for a day, but for a decade\u2014all the way into their mid-20s. The study found that children growing up in single-parent families are twice as likely to develop serious psychiatric illness and addictions later in life. The researchers also found a tremendous amount of other information, and all of it was bad. When we compare oranges and oranges, children will be better off in two-parent families, almost without exception. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000344\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ENowhere in this bill is there a reference to two-parent families. Two-parent families are simply being reduced, in this anti-capitalist, feminist agenda given to us by the Labour Party and its cohorts\u2014and unfortunately supported by United Future, something I just cannot understand\u2014to a historical, patriarchal aberration. Those parties think it is all about male domination. They obviously have not lived in any family that I have been part of. It certainly is not about male domination, either my parents\u2019 or my own.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000345\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002228c88b096843402dabd25205b505da2c\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000346\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ecd347f87d2643b9b55dbcdd78109e4a\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: I say thank you very much to Mr Ogilvy, the former doctor. Let us have a look at the real cost of the Families Commission. When I look at this bill, I think: \u201CWhat else could we do with $28 million?\u201D\u2014apart from buy a few doctors\u2019 degrees. We could get 5.6 million hours of free childcare. That would be good, would it not? We could have 2.18 million Plunket Line inquiries. That should last for a few years. We could have 357,379 booster seats. [Interruption] Is the member I hear over there the one who called out to my colleague Katherine Rich to go home to her children? We could have 2.9 million 20-packs of baby nappies, and 5.3 million hours of early childhood education for under-twos. My goodness, we need childhood education for our under-twos in this country! It is a useful thing to produce, is it not? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000347\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EOr we could have United Future cronies all working away in a bureaucracy so they can all have a job once we get rid of that party in 2005. Which shall we have? Or we could have 55,000 inquiries to the office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner. That should keep it going for a little while, should it not? We could have 1.8 million Births, Deaths and Marriages inquiries. Members may wonder why I would put that in. I will tell them why\u2014it is because 17,000 women in this country cannot or will not name the father of their children, and I cannot believe that these people are being allowed to have children. We are paying for them, and they do not even have the nous to say, \u201CWhat\u2019s your name, mate?\u201D before they decide to go and mate with them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000348\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E Frankly, that is just appalling, because there are 17,000 children, plus all the others as well\u2014their brothers and sisters from goodness knows how many fathers\u2014all with no fathers, no whakapapa, and no idea of where they came from except it happened to be a stray sperm swimming around. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000349\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EIt is just appalling that we have this situation in New Zealand, and we do not need $28 million spent on some bureaucracy to tell us that. The money could instead be spent on 627,400 two-year subscriptions to Kiwi Parent, and that would be a lot more use than a Families Commission that does not even know how to define what a family is, and needed its own Supplementary Order Paper to tell us all that the term did not really mean that it would be a criminal gang. It took an entire amendment to do that, and an awful lot of argument and money has been spent saying: \u201COh boy, it is not a gang.\u201D \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000350\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003ESomething even better could be done, I suggest, by tripling\u2014three times\u2014the amount of funding available for the Parents as First Teachers programme. Would that not be a good thing? In my electorate I am very lucky to have the Home Instruction Programme for Pre-school Youngsters, which was set up and run by the Pacific Foundation\u2014a wonderful organisation that is not bureaucratic and actually does something. It is a wonderful thing; it is not a Government department, it does not have a bureaucracy, it actually does something.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000351\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022d23dd394ab8947ca821203ac58f13fa2\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: Aw!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000352\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b90ba82388ea4b0a97dfbcbd09cce5d0\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS\u003C/span\u003E: What that organisation does\u2014and I would like to have a little less cynicism from the Minister of Transport\u2014is that it teaches parents how to be parents. Most of us learn our parenting skills from our own parents, but now that intergenerational hopelessness has been bred by woolly-woofter liberal ideas, there are parents who are not capable of being parents without a tremendous amount of work. What this programme has is very, very good people who actually help. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000353\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003EI have been to the graduation ceremony. I have seen people who had no self-esteem before and unbelievably little confidence who now talk proudly to me about reading to their children, making sure homework is done before the children do anything else, and being great parents. That is what money should be spent on, not yet another bureaucracy stuck in Wellington doing nothing for anyone out there. Those are the sorts of people we need to help this country.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022 data-id=\u00221e102f9cffc34d60894a6f9fb0843edd\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000354\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00222a849ed4-a817-45a7-8b86-dbc9dd210193\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00221e102f9cffc34d60894a6f9fb0843edd\u0022\u003EJILL PETTIS (Labour\u2014Whanganui):\u003C/span\u003E It always amuses me when National Party members take umbrage when one is speaking the truth of the situation to them. Yes indeed, when Katherine Rich got up to speak, I did interject and say, \u201Cabsent mothers\u201D, because this bill is about helping families. When it is considered how many times those National women, in particular, vote against pro-families legislation, I always think it is a bit rich. This is a good bill, and I look forward to it being passed through the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022 data-id=\u0022a4f2cdf1a0cb4b8abbb1fe30dd491d8c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000355\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022a4f2cdf1a0cb4b8abbb1fe30dd491d8c\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART (NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E It is with a degree of sadness that I rise on behalf of New Zealand First to speak in this third reading of the Families Commission Bill. It is sadness, as this is a model of a Families Commission that will never save one child in this country, and will not deliver what is required for the children and the families of New Zealand. I think that all of us in this House looked forward to this legislation, because we recognise that the strength of the family is the foundation of our nation. New Zealand First has said on many, many occasions that the quality of the future that we leave to our children will be determined by the quality of the children that we leave to that future, and the quality of those children is determined by the quality of family relationships. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000356\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWe absolutely support some of those ideas that were mentioned by the Minister about the strengthening of the family and how important the family is for the future of the nation. We support that, but this Families Commission is a bureaucracy that cannot and will not deliver what is required for the children and families of New Zealand. The bottom line is that this legislation is flawed and it will return to this House. In its election manifesto, United Future talked about establishing a commission for the family. Among its many roles, it would provide a family mediation service that would support, promote, and develop the provision of marriage and relationship counselling services. Then there is this legislation, where none of that is mentioned. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000357\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EUnited Future members have said at previous stages that this is their vision. This afternoon, the people of New Zealand will see that this commission is a nightmare\u2014a $28 million nightmare. It must be noted in the records that opposition to this legislation has elicited the most incredibly vitriolic response from United Future. We have seen press releases that were totally erroneous, and the leader of that party wrote to each of the submitters, stating that their views were totally ignored by the Opposition. This is totally inane, unprofessional behaviour. All submitters were listened to and questioned by the committee, and due process was followed in our select committee. It was a totally disappointing performance from the party that prides itself on bringing common sense into politics. If that is the sort of common sense United Future brings into politics, I am totally disappointed with those members. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000358\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First has made no secret of the fact that we would have supported without reservation a Families Commissioner that worked in with the Children\u2019s Commissioner. We all know that that organisation is working as an advocate for one of the most important elements of the family\u2014children. It is working very successfully, too. That organisation has a proven track record, and additional resources could have strengthened up its office, and it would not have required $28 million either. The $28 million that was required to set up this Families Commission, as was pointed out by my colleague Judith Collins, could have been better spent on more practical help for families than will be provided by this Families Commission. Organisations like Plunket, Early Start programmes, and other community groups that were working in the areas of parental support, could also have been used. I must say that United Future agrees with that. These organisations already have a proven track record. They are of great assistance to families, and they are successful. Some of this funding could have been given to some of these groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000359\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EPractical help is required\u2014rather than research, which this Families Commission is going to carry out. There is already a lot of research carried out, even by the Ministry of Social Development, on New Zealand families. We already know what is required for successful families. The resilience factor I think is mentioned in this legislation. Things like quality housing, health care, adequate nutrition, education, employment, a loving family, and two committed, loving parents are required. As has already been pointed out, meeting all these needs is absolutely paramount. Why do we have to spend $28 million to prove what we already know? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000360\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThere are a whole number of areas in this bill that make it totally impossible to support. United Future received some of its electoral support\u2014I know some of this from the worm, as well\u2014because of its focus on families; families that were easily definable by most New Zealanders. It is very evident that United Future was speaking with a forked tongue about families, and consequently has gone from a hero to a zero rating in the estimation of many people. Even the submitters have contacted us on this issue, as well. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000361\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003ENew Zealand First put forward in the Committee stage a definition of \u201Cfamily\u201D that would have been accepted by most New Zealanders. But guess what? United Future voted it down. My colleague Peter Brown will speak further on that. We also have some grave concerns about the number of commissioners who will be part of this commission. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000362\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1c4b156e666419d9bd44c665d8e6ef9\u0022\u003EJudith Collins\u003C/span\u003E: How many?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000363\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022efdd4a1b0777414f83d8186a0a050b06\u0022\u003EBARBARA STEWART\u003C/span\u003E: There will be three full-time commissioners and three part-time commissioners. United Future told us last week that these roles have already been advertised. There were hundreds of requests for applications. I do not know how many United Future MPs have applied, as yet. Next time around, perhaps! The total irony and the total arrogance that is shown here is absolutely astounding. It shows how much notice United Future was ever going to take of any contributions from anybody in this House in the Committee stage. Everybody here wants to achieve something while he or she is in Parliament. All I can say is that the legacy of a huge bureaucracy that United Future members want to create has turned their heads. Common sense has gone out of the door. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000364\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis House has not even passed the legislation, and already United Future members have raced ahead with advertising for these roles. One must now ask what their role will be in the selection of these family commissioners. Pride always comes before a fall. It is unfortunate that this is going to be a very expensive fall. The cumbersome structure and the duplication of tasks that are undertaken by other agencies will ensure that the goals of this commission and the lofty purpose outlined in this bill will never be realised. It will never be achieved at all. It is totally ironic that at a time when we know more about the family and its dysfunction than we have ever known, we pass legislation that will assist in ensuring that there is just as much dysfunction. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000365\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EThis commission cannot advocate for anybody. The Children\u2019s Commissioner has always been able to advocate for children, yet this commission cannot even do that. It cannot talk about any problems that certain families are experiencing, whether it be solo parent families, nuclear families, or problems that grandparents are having with their grandchildren. The commission cannot advocate for those particular groups. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000366\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220daaf9fb-1a1f-4d31-848a-fd13cb1a2c5a\u0022\u003EWhat will we get? We will get a very generalised message that will not mean a lot to anybody. It cannot be everything to everyone. We can only hope now that this Families Commission, because it will come into being, can achieve something worthwhile. We doubt it. New Zealand First will look forward to monitoring the outcomes of this $28 million talkfest and ensuring that the commission\u2019s performance is efficient and effective, as is outlined in this particular legislation. It is for all these reasons that New Zealand First will not be supporting this bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022 data-id=\u0022d301e02ebe5c455eb630a042733a6a77\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000367\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d301e02ebe5c455eb630a042733a6a77\u0022\u003ESUE BRADFORD (Green):\u003C/span\u003E As anyone who has been following this debate will know by now, the Green Party is completely opposed to the establishment of the Families Commission. We believe that it simply represents an unnecessary duplication of the work already being done both by a number of community sector agencies and by the Ministry of Social Development. It is also a waste of the $28 million over 4 years that has been allocated to it. That money could be spent far more productively on supporting the community organisations that carry out the same kinds of functions as will the Families Commission. Part of that money could also be put, with good effect, into providing adequate resources for existing bodies, like the office of the Children\u2019s Commissioner, which is severely underfunded at around $1.7 million a year and has only 12 staff, despite the critical work it attempts to carry out for New Zealand\u2019s children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000368\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThe Families Commission is purely and simply a creation of political expediency\u2014the result of a post-election deal between Labour and United Future. There is nothing inherently wrong with such deals, and I would be the first to acknowledge that they are likely to always be an integral part of MMP parliaments. However, it seems a pity that at a time when many children and families live in daily poverty and barely survive from one crisis to the next, we should as a result of electoral expediency be committing resources to something of such nebulous value. There was no public outcry for a Families Commission prior to the rise of Peter Dunne and the \u201Cworm\u201D in the 2002 election campaign. It was not something that community organisations were ever organising around. The church and community groups that I worked with around the country in the late 1990s were, and still are, on the whole, much more interested in whether they have enough funding to survive the next 3 months, so that they can continue to provide services for children and families, than they are in the establishment of a Government commission to carry out more research into the New Zealand family. Those groups already know a lot about the realities of life right now for parents and children, and for wider wh\u0101nau\u2014after all, they work with families every day. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000369\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EA lot of research has already been done, and continues to be done, into the true situation for families in all sorts of difficult circumstances that result from 20 years of structural unemployment, low wages, low benefit payments, and an ever-widening gap between rich and poor. Research or no research, groups like the People\u2019s Centre, Homebuilders, the Waipareira Trust, the Downtown Community Ministry (Wellington) Inc, and many others know what is going on with families a whole lot better than most of the MPs sitting in this House, and better than most of the public servants busily analysing policy in their Wellington offices. We do not need to have a whole lot more research and analysis, or between three and seven family commissioners to help to direct research operations. What we do need is a Government that is prepared to read the reports, listen to people, understand the results of the research that has already been done\u2014including research from the Ministry of Social Development itself\u2014and then to take action on the recommendations from all that plethora of research. What families need is action and solutions, not more paralysis by analysis. What families need is a Government that is prepared to take the drastic step of committing more of its annual budget to measures designed to bring families out of poverty, rather than to continue to give national priority to channelling billions of dollars into Budget surpluses, debt repayment, and the Superannuation Fund. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000370\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI can hear supporters of the Families Commission respond that its core functions include far more than research\u2014and that is quite true. The commission\u2019s functions also encompass things like acting as an advocate for families generally, encouraging informed debate on matters relating to the interests of families, increasing public awareness of matters relating to the interests of families\u2014such as the importance of parenting\u2014and facilitating the development of Government policies that serve families. All of that is well and good, and there is nothing wrong with any of it. But surely all of that is already being done by a diversity of organisations and various parts of the public service. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000371\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EOrganisations ranging from the Plunket Society and Parentline through to Unicef New Zealand and Barnardos New Zealand, and literally hundreds, if not thousands, of others advocate constantly and well\u2014in their local communities, and nationally\u2014in the interests of New Zealand\u2019s parents, families, and children. The Child Poverty Action Group and a range of associated individuals and organisations continue to do an amazing job, on very limited resources, of researching and championing the needs of the nearly one-third of the country\u2019s children who still live in poverty. The Children\u2019s Commissioner has just had a whole new bill passed in this House to strengthen the functions and powers of that office\u2014with a particular commitment to working with the Government to enact the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child\u2014without the funding increase that office needs in order to really get moving. The New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services\u2014which represents the social services of the Anglican, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, and Methodist churches, and the Salvation Army\u2014continues not only to offer hands-on assistance for families and children from over 550 locations around the country, but also to carry out research and make policy recommendations in the interests of families and children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000372\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EJust to take the work of the New Zealand Council of Christian Social Services as one particular example, it would be far more useful if the Government were to spend $28 million on implementing even some of the specific recommendations from its latest report, issued a couple of weeks ago, on preventing the cycle of debt than on establishing the Families Commission. That report uses a literature survey and case studies to highlight the growing impact of debt on low-income families, both in and out of work. It identifies key issues that are causing the debt crisis to escalate, and provides a whole series of recommendations through which this or any Government could begin to address the problems. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000373\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EThose suggestions are wide ranging and include among them raising the minimum wage to $10 an hour, calling for a public campaign to inform low-wage workers of the income support entitlements that are available to them, an increase in childcare availability and a lowering of childcare costs, investigating ways of providing casual workers with certainty of income, setting benefits at levels adequate to ensure a decent quality of life, extending the child tax credit to all families and amalgamating it with family support, adjusting all family assistance payments to account for past inflation and indexing them for further inflation, ensuring that all those who are eligible for benefits receive their full and correct entitlements, allowing Work and Income the discretion to waive or reduce stand-downs in cases of hardship and more discretion in granting non-recoverable assistance, increasing the investment in State housing and in third sector housing initiatives, investigating and implementing ways in which the Government can stop being the driver of unsustainable debt, investigating and implementing ways in which the Government can do more to help and protect people who are excluded from mainstream credit, looking at methods of improving the financial literacy of ordinary people, and much, much more. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000374\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EI present this long list\u2014in itself just a partial one\u2014because I think it is time that MPs, political parties, and the public service woke up to the fact that there is already an enormous amount of knowledge, experience, and passion out there in our communities geared towards advocating for, and solving, the problems that confront New Zealand families today. I have used only one example here of a report with recommendations that has been carried out on one particular aspect of family life: families struggling with low incomes and debt. There are, of course, many other areas of activity around families, from domestic violence and abuse through to parenting problems and solutions, and from mental illness and its impact on children and families through to the special needs of families whose members have major physical or intellectual impairments\u2014and many more. My point is that in each of those sectors there already exists a multiplicity of organisations with their own in-depth specialisation, research, and knowledge. In every case I am sure that one could quickly find any number of well-thought-out and useful recommendations for action that any Government could pick up on, without having to go through the extra expense and bureaucracy of establishing a Families Commission as an extra layer on top of all the other work that is already happening. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000375\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f8b92f47-d078-4e6a-b4c6-136913bda55d\u0022\u003EIf Labour and United Future are really serious about supporting families, I hope that over the coming year and a half they will do everything they can, alongside relevant Government departments, to pick up on the recommendations I have just outlined, and others that are coming out of different parts of the community and voluntary sector. I also hope that they will consider supporting my member\u2019s bill next year to establish a universal child benefit, as a signal that they are genuine in their desire to do something a lot more real for the families of this country than this Families Commission can ever hope to offer.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022 data-id=\u0022cc184417cc5a49428fded92e17390885\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000376\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022cc184417cc5a49428fded92e17390885\u0022\u003EKATHERINE RICH (National):\u003C/span\u003E I rise to speak in this third reading, which will see the creation of the Families Commission. My first question is to the members who support this bill. What would the Families Commission have done for the Cremen family, the Burrows family, or the Williams family? For those families who are genuinely in need in this country, the Families Commission will not do one single thing. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000377\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ENational does not support the establishment of a Families Commission as proposed. While the commission has some worthy goals, the cumbersome structure, the duplication of tasks that are being undertaken by other Government departments, agencies, and non-government organisations, the unwieldy objectives, and the politically correct definition of the family will ensure that those goals will never be realised. The commission set up under this legislation will be hamstrung. It will not be able to speak out on behalf of individual families or individual cases, as the Children\u2019s Commissioner is able to do. It will not be able to contradict Government policy of the day. We believe that the proposed structure will leave the commission open to ministerial manipulation, and will raise potential problems with regard to public perceptions of the commission\u2019s independence. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000378\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EOur primary reason for not supporting this bill, of course, is that it is unworkable. It contains the unworkable, all-encompassing definition of the family, which basically means almost every New Zealander. I have argued strongly that we already have a House of Representatives here to represent New Zealanders. That is what we are here to do. The Families Commission, with its budget of $28 million, will be all things to all people. If one stands for everything, then one stands for nothing. If one stands for all forms of families and champions all forms of families, then one will not be able to make any comments that will be able to help people to improve their lives. The Government\u2019s adherence to the doctrine of diversity is to the detriment of the traditional family structure, which for centuries has been proven to be a successful way to bring up kids. Sure, not everybody has that kind of family, but we should be able to say that there are some structures that do work, and that do ensure that we maintain the best opportunities for children that they can have. Those who originally supported the Families Commission imagined it would be a champion of the traditional family. When Barbara Stewart stood up and quoted from the United Future manifesto, she was right in saying that the original intention was to have something that would be able to say that marriage and traditional families were good. Well, the commission has been diluted down into a politically correct version of that, so I wonder how the United Future members are going to be able to stand opposite their supporters and explain what has happened. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000379\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe commission that is being created by this legislation does nothing for the protection of our social fabric. It may well undermine the particular things that we already know to be historic truths about families. The commission will be established at considerable expense\u2014$28 million for just another bureaucracy set up here in Wellington\u2014and it will be just another talkfest that will not really do anything for New Zealand families. I know the Minister of Finance over there on the Government benches did not want to spend $28 million on it. I am sure he had a lot of other good projects in mind, but he knew he had to do that in order to get United Future\u2019s support. That $28 million would have been better spent on a number of non-governmental organisations that are already helping out the families who are most in need. I am thinking of organisations like Plunket, Parents as First Teachers, the Parenting Council, and Barnardos\u2014a whole group of organisations that are already helping the families who are most in need, and that are already making a difference, rather than being something that is just another bureaucracy here in Wellington. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000380\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EThe Families Commission will be a weak puppet, and it will not be able to deliver on all the objectives that both the Government and United Future expect it to deliver. Political support has been given to the commission simply to maintain United Future\u2019s support for the Government, and for no other reason. We could tell that by the way that the Minister sat in the chair during the Committee stage of this bill. His head was low. He was embarrassed that he had to put his name to something that would be unworkable and would not achieve anything, except for paying a few salaries here in Wellington and keeping the bureaucratic machine going. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000381\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003EI say that we are here not to create feel-good legislation but to put in place laws that will make a difference to families. If the answer was to set up another committee, then I think those involved certainly asked the wrong question, because what is needed out there is not just another committee with a bunch of earnest commissioners who will travel the country, chanting: \u201CFamilies are good, families are good\u201D. All of us in this House know that that is the case. I find it absolutely bizarre that those people who support this bill say that those who are against it are anti-family, purely because they do not support the establishment of this commission. Well, that is just absolute rubbish. Just because we do not want to spend $28 million on something that we feel is already being done by the Ministry of Social Development and a lot of other Government agencies, Government organisations, and non-governmental organisations does not mean that we are anti-family. It means that we have a common-sense approach to the expenditure of money. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000382\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003ELet us do something a little extraordinary. Let us say here today that the $28 million will be spent on something that will make a difference. Let us give it to the Parenting Council, to Parentline in Hamilton, or to the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services. We all know that the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services needs a little bit of extra funding, to deal with the problems that it has\u2014in particular, the 3,000 unallocated cases of children who are waiting as we speak to see a social worker. Let us give that $28 million to Plunket, so that it will not have to cut the number of visits it gives New Zealand woman who are having children. Let us give it to Parenting with Confidence, to the Triple P programme, the Home Instruction Programme for Pre-school Youngsters or the Parent to Parent programme. The organisations I have mentioned are all doing work out there to support families, and in particular the families who are most in need.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000383\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002295ac7206-f497-429d-bf58-715224d5160f\u0022\u003E I think it is just extraordinary that people think that another little committee sitting here in the middle of Wellington will be the solution to all societal ills. The Families Commission would have done nothing for the Cremen family, for the Burrows family, or for the Williams family. It would certainly have not been in a position to do anything to change the life of Coral Burrows. Yet when we look at all the people who support this bill, we see that that is the sort of ideal they are holding up\u2014the sort of Utopia that they think this Families Commission, with a budget of $28 million, will somehow make possible. For the last 67 years this party has shown the importance of families, and that is why we are saying that if the Government is to spend $28 million, it should do it on something that will make a difference to them.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022 data-id=\u002289d6ae6706e14361bed2a0164cda4be6\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000384\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002285ec30d4-6394-433a-a12e-2c4def705dd0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002289d6ae6706e14361bed2a0164cda4be6\u0022\u003EJUDITH COLLINS (National\u2014Clevedon):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek leave of the House to table a press release that the Hon Peter Dunne has just put out. It contains a particularly vitriolic attack on myself, and suggests that I be demoted even further.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000385\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226ae8ae703a9c47c293d029f1167d9bdd\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: Leave has been sought for that course of action. Is there any objection? There is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022 data-id=\u00229e582ca08964409abafd64ddb00f6e12\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000386\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229e582ca08964409abafd64ddb00f6e12\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE (Leader\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I want to start with the point that the previous speaker ended on. She talked about the National Party\u2019s proud 67-year history of commitment to families. It is so proud and it is such a deep commitment that just 9 weeks ago, for the first time in those 67 years, it appointed a family spokesperson\u2014the member who took a point of order recently.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000387\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI have listened to this debate today with extraordinary amazement. I have been in this House long enough to think I have seen most things, but I have seldom seen a debate like this one, which is so lacking in argument and substance, and so dripping in petty jealousy from members opposite. Their arguments have nothing to do with whether a Families Commission should be established; they have everything to do with the fact that we promised that one would be established, we are establishing one, and we will ensure that it is adequately resourced to do the job it is expected to do, and those members opposite do not like it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000388\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThey claim that we should support all sorts of other organisations. They fail to say that every single one of the organisations they have named supports the establishment of the Families Commission. Every single one of them says it wants this commission in place, it sees the value it can bring, and it looks forward to it beginning its operations, because it wants to work alongside it. The only problem is the National, New Zealand First, Green, and ACT parties have a different view.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000389\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EWell, I want to say\u2014and I will say it to John Carter because he is the one person opposite who is capable of listening and understanding it, if he gets off the telephone for long enough\u2014United Future will not support any future Government that does not support the Families Commission. My comment about the member who is just leaving the Chamber is that her comments today in strong opposition to the Families Commission would, I suspect, come as a surprise to her leader, Dr Brash, because he is starting to talk about building wider coalitions. Let me repeat what I have just said: any party that does not support the Families Commission will not have the support of United Future if it is in Government, period. That point needs to be understood, not as a game of one-upmanship\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000390\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022387f1011de0941dc99b478edaa5f1834\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: We\u2019re all shaking over here.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000391\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cdeef4ca3b314446a1b7dd8ede681a03\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite does not count. He knows it. He will go back to the far north, go fishing, and we will be none the sadder for his departure. Let me make this point.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000392\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002210a95995b1ee4a0b9813ae1680decd13\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The member doesn\u2019t know about these issues.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000393\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022e386648ee0d948aea711ea86f9e14dcf\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: The member opposite knows, does he? Let me say to Mr Peters that he may not know it but most people around New Zealand laugh at him. I will move on from there. [Interruption] This commission\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000394\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022075eff2f-7904-4500-8339-3972160a627f\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022872be29c61ff477bba46c63668af1655\u0022\u003EJim Peters\u003C/span\u003E: The member doesn\u2019t know!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000395\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c2d86a629b0d4f189a97e50f4b0df889\u0022\u003EHon PETER DUNNE\u003C/span\u003E: It is the truth. The member might not like the truth, but it is the truth. People will be rocking in the aisles right now at the thought of that member interjecting. As for Mrs Stewart, they do not even know who she is.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000396\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EI come back to the Families Commission. This commission is being established because when we look a little bit under the veneer of New Zealand society, we see that the statistics about the state of our families are appalling. We have the world\u2019s second-highest rate of single-parent families. We have 65 percent of our young male offenders being brought up in homes without a father figure present. We have 40 percent of our criminals aged between 14 and 18. [Interruption]\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000397\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member who is interjecting said that the problem is we are taking too diverse an approach. I say to that member that the reality is families in New Zealand come in all shapes and sizes. Families in New Zealand do have a whole variety of structures. If we are to tackle the problems\u2014and let us get real for a moment\u2014yes, the two-parent, mum and dad family is the ideal we can strive for, but it is actually a minority in contemporary New Zealand. If we are to strive for that ideal, we should not start by saying to a whole range of family structures and their children that they are automatically excluded and do not count. We will not make progress in that way. We have to say that the ideal is, as we have said and will continue to say, the two-parent family, but the reality is often somewhat different, and we need to work with all groups if we are to achieve that ideal in time. I cannot understand members opposite who seriously think that, by somehow setting New Zealander against New Zealander\u2014because that is the implication of what they are saying\u2014we will build a cohesive society, we will build a country where our families feel included, and we will do something about addressing those statistics I mentioned a moment or two ago.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000398\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe member who spoke before asked about the situation in the Wairarapa and those families there. We will not turn dysfunction round overnight, but we also will not make any change by carrying on the way we are. This House has seen more emphasis on families in the last 15 months, since this party has had a prominent role, than in the years beforehand. I say to the Minister of Finance that in the Budget this year, by my count, 15 family-specific initiatives were introduced. That is far more than in any previous Budget in my time in this House. If it takes the influence of United Future to achieve that, and if it takes the prospect of a Families Commission to achieve that, well and good, because it is a vast change from the days of yore when members opposite were in Government and nothing happened. The legacy of their tenure is reflected in many of the problems we face today.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000399\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EFor those same people now to say that a constructive effort\u2014$28 million over 4 years to deal with a problem that, conservatively, costs New Zealand $5.6 billion every year\u2014is excessive, irresponsible, and wasteful is simply nonsensical. We have to make a start. If we really believe that this country functions well when its families function well, if we really believe that families are at the cornerstone of our society, if we really believe that every child deserves the best possible start in life, then we will get behind structures, organisations, policies, and plans to achieve that. We will not sit here whingeing, moaning, and begrudging positive effort. That is all that this debate is about. When one sums it up, the Opposition is saying: \u201CIt\u2019s not fair\u2014you\u2019re doing it and we\u2019re not.\u201D There is nothing more to it than that. That is the reason Opposition members play games in the select committee. That is the reason they do not like their game playing being pointed out. That is the reason for the bilious interjections we are getting at the moment. It is simply a case of \u201CYou\u2019re doing it and we\u2019re not. It\u2019s not fair.\u201D\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000400\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EUp and down New Zealand, the families of New Zealand do not take any notice of that. If the Families Commission is such an appalling idea and is ridiculed up and down the country, why have there been 170-odd applications for appointment to the commission? Why has every family group and social agency up and down New Zealand been attacking my office and the Minister of Social Development\u2019s office, pleading for application forms in order to nominate people whom that group or agency thinks can make a contribution to the work of this commission?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000401\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003EThe reality is New Zealand is crying out for some leadership in this area. It is crying out for a body that will at last put an emphasis and a focus on family life in New Zealand. It is a great tragedy\u2014the previous member drew in current circumstances, so let me say this, particularly as I see the member for Wairarapa\u2014that at a time when family stress and tension are in our national consciousness, that members opposite play the sorts of games they are playing at the moment. It is a great tragedy that we cannot come together at this time and say that, as this initiative has a chance of succeeding, let us get behind it and let us make it work, instead of playing narrow, cheap political games, sneering, moaning, whining, and otherwise behaving in a generally obnoxious and unacceptable manner.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022 data-id=\u00223923bbc05b884a33812a94216535029c\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000402\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00223923bbc05b884a33812a94216535029c\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN (Deputy Leader\u2014NZ First):\u003C/span\u003E I think the honourable member has voiced some concerns about families, and, to be fair to this side of the House, if we thought this bill would deliver the solutions, we would be supportive of it. I tell that member that before this bill even emerged in any way at all, my colleague Dail Jones had a families commission bill in the members\u2019 ballot.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000403\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022707f05eca2a04c40adf826d25cdcfedd\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Lifted it straight from our policy.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000404\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022579814b059184d39aa8f1971a64722d5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Dail Jones was not in the House before the election. He could not have put the bill in before the election. A clause in that bill identified a family as being what I think we all believe a family would be. If the member over there thinks this bill will address the issue, then I invite him to read his own bill\u2014the purpose clause. There is no mention of a family in it. The nearest it gets to mentioning it is to state that the bill\u2019s purpose is to establish a Crown entity for the purposes of the Public Finance Act 1989, to state the commission\u2019s functions and powers, and to require the commission to have regard to certain matters and to comply with certain other obligations.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000405\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWe looked at the functions clause. There are three functions under the main function clause. The first is: \u201CThe commission\u2019s main function is to act as an advocate for the interests of families generally.\u201D We thought that was quite good. It is a move in the right direction. But look at the second: \u201CThat function does not include acting as an advocate for the interests of a particular family or particular families in connection with a particular case or issue.\u201D Families have to go somewhere else; the commission will not handle that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000406\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EBasically, this bill is too liberal and is hugely bureaucratic, so the select committee would not support it. It sent it back to the House. As a response, the honourable leader of United Future sent a very damning letter to all the submitters, or at least most of them, which referred to \u201Can unprecedented and venal political stunt by these four parties\u201D. I ask that member what is unprecedented about a bill coming back to this House. The member has been here a long time, far longer than me, and he knows that many bills have come back to this House without the support of the select committee. He knows that. He is shaking his head. Maybe I should refresh his memory, because I can think of at least one. [Interruption] In my 7 years? That member has been here five times those 7 years.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000407\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EHis letter goes on to state it was a venal stunt. \u201CVenal\u201D is probably the worst word one could use in politics to describe a fellow MP. There cannot be much worse than that. I do not take offence at a great deal, and, to be honest, if the member called me venal in the House I would not object. I would live with it. But he wrote to submitters to say that people in my party are part of a venal political stunt, which means they are open to bribery and corruption. I invite members from United Future to reflect on that. That is what the word means; that is the dictionary definition. If the member does not believe that, I invite him to check the dictionary. I know he knows what it means. I invite the member to reconsider and do what he did when he spoke about Professor Jane Kelsey. In September he said something quite damning about her, and 1 or 2 months later he was in the House retracting it. I invite the member to think, because he has a precedent of withdrawing those sorts of comments. If he thinks we are not taking it seriously, he should think again.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000408\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EThere is more to families than children, although they are very, very important, and I do not want to imply otherwise. I believe that, with extra resourcing for the Commissioner for Children, most cases involving children could be handled. At least the Commissioner for Children advocates on behalf of children. But does this bill cover families of mature people, older people, people who might be worried about their finances, health, and end-of-life problems?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000409\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223589ad90d2964f2ab3c7e79b96b98cc4\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Have you read the bill?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000410\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba403ae29a914b3eb2bc92dd51b99006\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I have read the bill. I cannot see anything that says the commission would consider supporting things like end-of-life concerns, as advocated in my Death with Dignity Bill.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000411\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022663ce9d0c85745e1b4474023197c7fc6\u0022\u003EHon Member\u003C/span\u003E: Wouldn\u2019t do that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000412\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00221f185138506040e58afec4b770ba894d\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: One of his members is saying he would not do that. The commissioners are not allowed to look at end-of-life situations and concerns that older people, older families, have.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000413\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00226321ff355f804de686de3cf0d1e0af7c\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Helping people kill themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000414\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022378313daa2c94b2892a819e1433e202a\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Older people are worried about end-of-life situations. Mr Dunne should not make light of that. It is a serious concern for many people in New Zealand. If the family commissioners were asked to look at it, would the member endeavour to stop it?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000415\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fdcfe523d445425697cb3b23f718504a\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: What? Helping them kill themselves?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000416\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002227299b0b460d4d3d8e654698fe79cb46\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: It is not helping them kill themselves. The member is being frivolous about a genuine concern.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000417\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003EWhat does this definition of a family mean? Let me read the definition. The bill states: \u201C(2) In this section, family includes a group of people related by marriage, blood, or adoption,\u201D\u2014all very good thus far\u2014\u201Can extended family, 2 or more persons living together as a family, and a wh\u0101nau or other culturally recognised family group.\u201D The little bit there that concerns me is \u201C2 or more persons living together as a family\u201D. Would the family commissioners be looking at, for example\u2014I am asking the United Future members\u2014two homosexual men who are living together and have a passionate desire to adopt children? Are they embraced as a family under this bill? Oh, the members are silent now. Paul Adams is silent.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000418\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022c01da2025737445493d9ce8cbb9b4846\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: They are not embraced.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000419\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022aa44172e7e4c463d830e464d5e6126dc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: They are not embraced under this bill. Well, let the honourable member tell me how he is going to control the family commissioners, because the family commissioners will be appointed under the equal opportunities legislation and the Human Rights Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000420\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002243fc8873ad744e6d8d16cd5be44c8673\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: They are appointed under the Families Commission Act.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000421\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022da92b6419d864d40a0f3a1a0c78e4b14\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: But they will have to be governed by the equal opportunities legislation and the Human Rights Act. Is it impossible that one or more of the family commissioners could be homosexual?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000422\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002299444f35c6354d66931ad97eaad482b5\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: Who knows? They haven\u2019t been appointed yet.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000423\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002271906a81ad594eeca0e2f41eb2ae6eca\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: But the member will not deny that they could well be homosexuals and want to promote this\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000424\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022f555a23a-d230-4f03-80ba-a44e6ec8bd29\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224d6aec96828e4ff5bf0968a382286423\u0022\u003EHon Peter Dunne\u003C/span\u003E: They might even be Asian people.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000425\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f8c30c0ff7ba462da368b225c13643ae\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I hope at least one of them is Asian. But I am pointing out to the member that if we have homosexual people as family commissioners, it is not impossible that they will promote homosexual men being able to adopt children. Does United Future stand for that? I tell members that, on this side of the House, New Zealand First has real concerns about that. It is illegal at the moment, and we have real concerns about that happening. If members are opening the door there, they should be aware of it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000426\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00223bbf02f20da746dca61e9b12cedcbd44\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: It\u2019s illegal.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000427\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ba264166911a48a58a3a71e25982c8b6\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: The member says it is illegal now. There is a bill likely to come before this House within the next year that will make it\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000428\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022a031c9de-7856-491c-8f6f-bc67f285b4f7\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002257df0ce3a0bb4430964a86f7414e2e01\u0022\u003EBernie Ogilvy\u003C/span\u003E: One at a time.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000429\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227703fde8902f432ca3ec107b935eabdc\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: I am asking those members how they will control it with this bill. This bill is opening the door wider, and I think they are fooling themselves if they think it is not. I say to honourable members that New Zealand First is not prepared to experiment with the lives of children. The research that we have seen shows that children brought up in homosexual families are put at a disadvantage, and we are not prepared to experiment with the lives of children. I cannot get that assurance from the United Future people. They say we do not support this bill because we are frivolous and because we are jealous. Nothing could be further from the truth. New Zealand First would be keen to support something that develops families in this country, and, principally, develops the traditional family, which has served this society of New Zealanders so well in its 150-plus years of history.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000430\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022b1596c680818430dba23f1f4190a6745\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: As long as they are not from other countries, I presume.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000431\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227e8f90cdc832461f84de06161e692ad5\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: Does a member have a question for me? I am willing to answer a question.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000432\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u002204ed8007-24ee-45fb-ab8e-8573da79b238\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00227a470d5d40a8458081f0143425a4642f\u0022\u003EMarc Alexander\u003C/span\u003E: Would you include people from other countries? \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000433\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022e3dc3d88-a571-4ed7-a4b4-b66dedd6134b\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022116a54dbed1e416e93b4655e8ed22302\u0022\u003EPETER BROWN\u003C/span\u003E: How stupid is the member! I come from another country. How stupid is the member not to recognise that! I am the foremost immigrant in New Zealand First and proud of it. New Zealand First would support any legislation that legitimately addressed the concerns the Hon Peter Dunne raised, but this bill does not. It is far wide of the mark, and it will be very costly. There are better ways of spending the money. Widening the breast-screening age range to include women aged from 40 to 70 would be a better way of spending the money. Regrettably, New Zealand First cannot support this bill because it is too liberal and too bureaucratic. But when we are in Government next time, we will amend it.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u0022631ea14c13fd4e69bbac451864ea5425\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000434\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022631ea14c13fd4e69bbac451864ea5425\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I call Muriel Newman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022 data-id=\u00229d390118fbd84527a5866574189fa661\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000435\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00224e6caa14-14ae-43f5-b9da-fe479511fe74\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229d390118fbd84527a5866574189fa661\u0022\u003EPAUL ADAMS (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. Just to clarify things, United Future is interested in people having a better life, not a better death.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022 data-id=\u00224bd615d03fbf4132a1bbd88b436b0991\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000436\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00224bd615d03fbf4132a1bbd88b436b0991\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u0022da2f3086dfe54c42b28bcb35e67287d9\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000437\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022da2f3086dfe54c42b28bcb35e67287d9\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (Whip\u2014United Future):\u003C/span\u003E I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to raise the point that, on the list agreed to by the Speaker and published, Muriel Newman was to have taken the sixth speaking slot. She neglected to\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000438\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233c717d980a1438b9e31bc43afe80fa4\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: That is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000439\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022ead1c4565ed84a8d96cc899e3e99b9ff\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: I would like to finish my point of order, because\u2014\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000440\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u00224f334e67327a4bdf9d22a46e4360a811\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: I am not going to let you finish, because it is not a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000441\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002286f58e59afd1425c868b2ef48d2c332a\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: It is about the speaking order, and it must be a point of order.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022cc7c9bc5db8d4973a5b058e80943e3a1\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: No. It is a procedural matter that I am quite aware of. I have called Muriel Newman, and I do not intend to change that.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000443\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022f919aca0b0a44f3c82d1b001af859b90\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND\u003C/span\u003E: Discussion occurred on this at the Standing Orders Committee, and I was informed by the Speaker that he would undertake to advise yourself and the other Assistant Speaker that in a situation where a party did not take the call in the order agreed to by the Speaker, it would drop down to the bottom of the list.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000444\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00220ed9ad81-05c1-4171-80c6-24fa02cade42\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002281b6d7ec5ea442218e9c102d4eb9a1b5\u0022\u003EThe ASSISTANT SPEAKER (Hon Clem Simich)\u003C/span\u003E: The member is wasting time. The first three positions are set. The others can move around. As far as I am concerned, and while I am in this chair, ACT has not had its call, and it is going to get it. I call Muriel Newman.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022 data-id=\u002218afbf820b0f4bb28920072ad2005102\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000445\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u002218afbf820b0f4bb28920072ad2005102\u0022\u003EDr MURIEL NEWMAN (ACT):\u003C/span\u003E The ACT party has opposed this bill right from the beginning. We see it as a $28 million bureaucracy, and we have to remind ourselves that the Commissioner for Children operates on a budget of less than $2 million. We also see it as a direct payback by the Labour Government to United Future, that\u2014and I say this advisedly\u2014pathetic little party that is the Government\u2019s lapdog. I have to say that having listened to the Hon Peter Dunne\u2019s contribution to this debate. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000446\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe major reason that the ACT party is not prepared to support the Families Commission is that it will be manned by political appointees. We know we have a Labour Party that is opposed to the family\u2014that is, its socialist origins and ideology are anti-family. The real concern is that New Zealand will be given a $28 million spin machine to promote Labour Party anti-family propaganda. Given that, there is no way that a party like ACT can support that machine. If the commissioners were not political appointees, we probably would not have supported this bill, but at least we would have considered it. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000447\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EIn his speech earlier on in this debate, the Minister for Social Development and Employment mentioned that he was supporting this legislation because it was pro-family. Yet in a recent speech he said: \u201CI know of no social science that says the nuclear family is more successful than other kinds.\u201D That is the real colour of that Minister\u2014he is anti-family. Coming from somebody who was a sociologist before he came into Parliament, that comment is quite extraordinary. The comment that there is no social science that shows the nuclear family to be more successful than other kinds flies in the face not only of evidence within New Zealand, but evidence around the world\u2014and also common sense. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000448\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EThe married family is the cornerstone of society. Marriage is the best child-rearing institution ever invented. Contrary again to what the Minister has said in this debate, it is an institution that dates back thousands of years, and children raised in a successful married family, in general, go on to be successful themselves. But the interesting thing is that in being successful\u2014in other words, in having good jobs, good prospects, and all the rest of it\u2014many of those children grow up to be centre-right voters. That is why the Labour Government, and \u201CMr Progressive Party\u201D sitting there, are so opposed to the family. The married family creates people who believe in centre-right philosophies of limited government, more prosperity, and all of those things. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000449\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EHowever, I do want to acknowledge, on behalf of our party, that that is not to say that other forms of family do not also succeed really well in building a good life for themselves and their children. But on the balance of probability, other forms of families do face increased difficulties, and their children do face greater risk factors in life. Back to 1987 when Professor David Ferguson was working in Christchurch on his child development study of some 1,200 children who are now in their 20s, he warned the Lange Labour Government against accepting the enthusiastic claims about family diversity as being good for children. Back in those days\u2014the 1980s\u2014he warned against sole parenthood and de facto relationships, because he saw that they created instability for children. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000450\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EOver the years we have also had warnings from Government departments\u2014right up until very recent warnings from the Ministry of Social Development and the Department of Child, Youth and Family Services\u2014that family instability and sole parenthood are risk factors for children. Those two factors are the strongest predictors of infant mortality; childhood injury; physical, emotional, and sexual abuse of children; neglect of children; poor school performance; youth crime; youth suicide; and teenage pregnancy. If this Government cared about the future of children, it would be promoting stability in this bill about the Families Commission, and it would be promoting marriage. That is not to say that marriage is the be-all and end-all for every couple in this country, but at least if it forms a successful type of relationship in which to raise children, it should be promoted by the Government of the day, for goodness sake! \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000451\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWhat is really bizarre is that United Future could not even persuade the Government that it should recognise marriage in this bill. That again is an extraordinary situation, given all the pro-family rhetoric of United Future. But United Future could not end up promoting marriage, Labour could not promote marriage, so all of those comments about those parties being pro-family, I am afraid, are hollow ones. The proof is not in the pudding. The proof is not in this bill. The word \u201Cmarriage\u201D does appear in the bill, because it was in the previous legislation, but it is not promoted in the actual content of this bill and the reasons for it\u2014as many submitters wanted it to be. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000452\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EWhen we think about it, the Labour Party and United Future have instead been promoting instability in this term of Parliament. They have voted for a more generous welfare system. In fact, United Future voted for a weakening of the restraints around the domestic purposes benefit. If members talk to community groups out there, they will say that the domestic purposes benefit creates the greatest incentive for marriage and family breakdown of any single type of benefit, or even type of incentive. United Future has supported the Government in raising taxes, and, again, that has put lots of financial pressure on families. That sort of pressure, unfortunately, often leads to family breakdown. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000453\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EBut what is worse is that when families do break up, United Future and the Labour Party appear to be committed to marginalising fathers. I know that United Future will say that that is not correct, but the proof will be in what happens to the Care of Children Bill, and whether it supports shared parenting in that bill, and also supports the opening up of the Family Court. Those two changes to the law would significantly help to reduce the marginalisation of fathers in New Zealand and help connect them to their children, even though their families have broken up. I will wait to see the results of the United Future party\u2019s and Labour Party\u2019s deliberations on shared parenting and opening up the Family Court. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000454\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EDuring this debate, we have heard a sanctimonious contribution from the leader of United Future, who appeared to blame all the other Opposition parties for playing politics. I say that it is the United Future party that has been guilty of playing the most terrible game of politics over the Care of Children Bill, by telling all the submitters that because the bill was discharged from the committee because there was not a majority on the committee to pass it, we were not taking any notice of all those submitters. United Future described the Opposition parties as \u201Cbloody-minded\u201D and \u201Crat cunning\u201D. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000455\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022b62240ad-adda-430d-887a-8f999ef4bbc4\u0022\u003EI have never heard such a disgraceful rendition of what has happened to the parliamentary process in New Zealand as I have from the United Future party. It is an absolute disgrace to Parliament that United Future members could use what is a normal procedure when there is no majority on a select committee. I say it is that party that has been playing politics. United Future is very unhappy because we are not going along with its views, but we cannot do that because this is not a sound initiative.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022 data-id=\u00229c16d94fb4bd404abd5fca997d8af6d1\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000456\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u00229c16d94fb4bd404abd5fca997d8af6d1\u0022\u003EGORDON COPELAND (United Future):\u003C/span\u003E The first point I would like to make is the simple political one: I would not even be in this Parliament, and United Future would not be here with eight MPs, if any other party in this Parliament had bothered to pick up, with a degree of sincerity and energy, the question of the New Zealand family. The National Party when in Government, New Zealand First when in Government, and the Labour Party when in Government have all had numerous opportunities to do that, but they all dumped it. We came along and put it on the political landscape, and, as a result, we are here. I am therefore delighted that today the Families Commission Bill will become law and that we have this wonderful initiative in the life of our country and our families. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000457\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EWe were surprised and disappointed at many of the comments that came from the other parties at the select committee stage, because the comments demonstrated, in our view, a complete lack of in-depth understanding about current thinking in family practice internationally. They looked, for example, at the strengthened provisions of clause 7, which cover the main functions of the commission, and asked what \u201Cfamilies\u2019 resilience\u201D was and what was meant by \u201Cfamilies\u2019 strengths\u201D. That terminology is not some trendy fad that one drops into conversations at a cocktail party to sound PC. Indeed, those concepts reflect an enormous weight of research and family practice that is well documented and is considered by those working at the grass roots level with families to improve outcomes as being the way forward. Instead of limiting the debate on how best to help families in purely income-related terms, which has tended to be the emphasis of Parliaments in New Zealand over a considerable amount of time, we need to better understand why it is that some individuals and families faced with serious threats and challenges to their well-being manage to cope well while others faced with similar circumstances do not manage to do so. Scholars and others interested in that question have developed the concept of resilience to explain that quality that holds family life together through the scheduled and unscheduled transitions in life. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000458\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u00225cee6a89-68e3-40fd-b2d8-d8adb0ba5da0\u0022\u003EFamilies with low resilience factors do not experience improved outcomes just by increasing their income, although that may be part of the solution, and we would certainly do all that we can to ensure that families are well resourced, and we have a range of taxation policies that will do that. The only other point I would like to make, in order to keep this fairly brief, is one that we have spoken on before. For many years in Parliament, when it comes to the New Zealand family, we have put huge resources into putting additional ambulances at the bottom of the cliff. That is right and proper, because we do need to face the realities of family breakdown in this country. But this bill, and at this point in history, I believe, is the time when it is incumbent upon us as a Parliament to start to put a fence at the top of the cliff so that we begin to understand why it is that so many people are in such dire straits in the first place, and to come up with strategies and policies that will ensure that family life over the next generation in New Zealand begins to improve and, hopefully, improve dramatically. We all need to be part of that, and the Government, the State itself, needs to give a lead. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022 data-id=\u0022d7224eef078d4e3586d8154744c942c3\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000459\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022c5d9f81e-8fbc-419b-8f03-d0c6abebb8d2\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022d7224eef078d4e3586d8154744c942c3\u0022\u003EHon MATT ROBSON (Deputy Leader\u2014Progressive):\u003C/span\u003E Next week a thumping 32-vote majority in Parliament will vote in favour of extending the minimum annual holiday provisions to 4 weeks. We will do that because the majority of this democratically elected and representative Parliament wants to play a positive role in strengthening families. For the Progressive party there is no division between our commitment to strengthening families, our campaigns against drugs in our society, the campaign for 4 weeks\u2019 leave, or the commitment to a strong economic and regional industry development programme. The Progressive party will vote in favour of the Families Commission, because our commitment is to making New Zealand a safer, more decent, and happy place in which to live, work, and raise families. An absolute majority will say yes to this progressive legislation. We have 62 votes, thanks to the cooperation between three parties that are serious about helping to strengthen families, and about auditing and monitoring all the work that we do against those criteria. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n    \u003Cdiv class=\u0022HpsHansard\u0022\u003E\n      \u003Cp\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsProceedingHeading\u0022\u003EBills\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000460\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubjectHeading\u0022 id=\u002245f0c0887f7145058e7b2dbae4b0cf38\u0022\u003EHolidays Bill\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000461\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsSubproceedingHeading\u0022 id=\u00227d58edf2a2c9447f94f8b6b11a5fab26\u0022\u003EThird Reading\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022 data-id=\u0022ccf38b47a08c4d3ab6d01230cdc75e08\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000462\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022ccf38b47a08c4d3ab6d01230cdc75e08\u0022\u003EHon MARGARET WILSON (Minister of Labour):\u003C/span\u003E I move, That the Holidays Bill be now read a third time. I am pleased to see this bill come before the House in its final stages today. It takes its place in a line of much needed improvements to our employment relations framework, and it follows on from the Employment Relations Act, paid parental leave, and health and safety legislation. All these measures are part of building an employment relations framework encompassing fair minimum standards and promoting productive employment relationships. Everyone agrees that the Holidays Act was sorely in need of review. This was largely due to the fact that it is an Act that brought together legislation from the 1940s without attempting to update any of the provisions. Because of this, the Act is impossible for anyone to apply and interpret in a consistent manner, and it is single-handedly responsible for more than a quarter of all calls to the Department of Labour and almost 80 percent of all complaints to labour inspectors. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000463\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThis bill has been over 3 years in development, and its contents follow the work of two advisory groups, which included both employer and union representatives. It accommodates a diverse range of working patterns in the workforce, and the way in which holiday and leave entitlements can be applied in all these situations. I wish to thank the members of the two advisory groups for all their work in this area. The compromises reached by these groups on what issues the Holidays Bill should address are one of the reasons why the changes are possible. I wish to especially thank the representatives of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions and Business New Zealand, which both continued good work beyond the advisory group and made an invaluable contribution to the drafting of the bill. As well as the advisory group members, Department of Labour officials have been unstinting in carrying out their responsibilities to the Government, this House, and the public. Also, I give particular thanks to the drafters in the Parliamentary Counsel Office. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000464\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EThe dedication and diligence of the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee members is manifest in the bill. They put a significant amount of time and effort both into hearing submissions and considering the bill in detail. The constructive process used is a tribute to the members. They have recommended sensible changes to clarify what is needed in this legislation. The 3 years of work by the select committee members of the advisory group have now resulted in a Holidays Bill fit for the 21st century. Now we look at the next critical stage, which will be ensuring strong implementation. The Department of Labour\u2019s information services will be available to help people find out about their entitlements and obligations. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000465\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EIn terms of the content of the bill, I would like to focus on one element in particular: the minimum entitlement of annual holidays. The bill provides a minimum of annual holidays entitlement of 4 weeks, effective from 1 April 2007. This long lead time recognises employers\u2019 needs to manage the change and give effect to any changes necessary. I consider 4 weeks\u2019 annual holiday is an essential element in helping employees to achieve a better balance between their work and personal lives. I am heartened by the support given by the Green Party and New Zealand First to this measure. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000466\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022022cfe6b-bae4-4028-b68a-ccffb4269442\u0022\u003EAs we head off to the Christmas break, the opponents of 4 weeks\u2019 annual holidays should spare a thought for those parents who have only 3 weeks at most to spend with their children during the summer break. The reason for the increased annual holidays is that we believe New Zealand is a great place to live, and this is a practical way of showing it. Four weeks\u2019 annual holiday will contribute to reducing stress and enhancing productivity. It is the best way to invest in the workforce, so that businesses can be productive and essential. I am proud to be part of a Government that has done so much to restore balance to New Zealand workplaces. The Holidays Bill marks another milestone in achieving a fair and reasonable employment relations framework. I commend the bill to the House.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\u003Ca name=\u0022member\u0022 data-type=\u0022article\u0022 data-memberid=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022 data-id=\u0022f94f0215772b40c38dfbaf8c357b43bc\u0022\u003E\u003C/a\u003E\u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000467\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsByToc\u0022 id=\u0022f94f0215772b40c38dfbaf8c357b43bc\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER (National\u2014Rangitikei):\u003C/span\u003E The National Party made its position on the bill very clear when the Hon Roger Sowry led the debate through the initial stages\u2014the first reading, second reading, and the Committee stage.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000468\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022ba6fde7e-93f4-4636-9ce2-02c07007973a\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u002233e7ee3918974e3c838c92664d56aa78\u0022\u003EHon Paul Swain\u003C/span\u003E: The National Party is taking a holiday\u2014yours!\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000469\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsBy\u0022 id=\u0022fb2bee80c8064dce8bf46acfda483bce\u0022\u003ESIMON POWER\u003C/span\u003E: That is pretty funny coming from the \u201CMinister for Lunches\u201D. The bill presents a number of confusing key issues, but, more important, by way of a last-minute inclusion, was the entitlement to 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave. This entitlement has been described by various people in the House during the course of the last series of debates on the bill as the great Labour Party election bribe, which will come into effect on 1 April 2007. As other members have said during the passage of the bill through the House, why not just make the date 2015? Why not make it 2010? What is so special about 2007? I see Sue Bradford nodding\u2014that makes me a bit nervous, actually. If the Government intends to delay the implementation of the bill until 2007, why not just push it right out? Either Government members are serious, principled, and committed to the entitlement of 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave or they are not. \u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000470\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EI have to say that whether or not one agrees with 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave\u2014and I will come shortly to the reservations that we on this side of the House have\u2014what the Government is doing rather cheapens it a bit. The Government\u2019s view is that: \u201C OK, we\u2019ve been pushed into a corner on the issue by Matt Robson and by the Council of Trade Unions, and the best way for us to get through this\u2014given that Steve Maharey promised he would not introduce 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave\u2014is to let it hang out a bit over the course of the next election.\u201D The Government thinks that it can have this leave issue out there as a piece of bait for the electorate in general. That just confirms what I was saying in the general debate yesterday, and that is that this Government does not operate on principles, at all. Either Government members believe in 4 weeks\u2019 annual leave or they do not. If they believe in it, they should implement it\u2014get on with it. What is the hold-up?\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000471\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EDebate interrupted.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n      \u003Cp id=\u0022id20031211667c1d7947fa48baaefbc284e66f7680000472\u0022\u003E\u003Cspan class=\u0022HpsNormal\u0022 id=\u0022803002d1-e810-4bd8-b8e7-2e97d0d6f626\u0022\u003EThe House adjourned at 6 p.m.\u003C/span\u003E\u003C/p\u003E\n    \u003C/div\u003E\n  \u003C/body\u003E\n\u003C/html\u003E"